First?

re. Hitchens
You can read his piece in Slate.
Just make sure he doesn't write my obituary.
http://www.slate.com/id/2166337/nav/tap2/

Reposting quotes from Gore's book:

"Why has America's public discourse become less focused and clear, less reasoned?"

"...a conversation of democracy in which meritorious ideas and opinions from individuals do, in fact, evoke a meaningful response."

As Hitchens aptly proves, then squashes.

Posner. "Case Closed." Government Conspiracies are an oxymoron. Can't keep a secret like that for 40 years. No such thing as a monolithic entity. Terrible Evil need not require a complicated cause.

Scroonched down in seat proven by recent vid.

I'm sure I've missed something, but I'm kind of busy today.

Interesting website

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

Interesting website

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

RD, yup that Internet is quite the source of accurate, thoughtful information, isn't it?

"The whole consideration of this -- of this horrible little person is offensive to very, very many of us who have some regard for truth and for morality, and who think that ethics do not require that lies be told to children by evil old men..."

I did not like Jerry Falwell, or a good deal of his propaganda. Period. However, it seems like Mr. Hitchens is saying that *Christianity* is immoral and nothing but lies, something at which I take offense. Atheists do not have a monopoly on morality. I take my ethical responsability very seriously, and I base it on what a Palestinian Jew said about 2000 years ago. I also would consider myself someone who has very high regard for the truth. For someone who claims to fight against bigotry (of which Falwell was guilty on many occasions), Mr. Hitchens appears fairly bigoted himself.

Maybe I'm reading too much into what he's saying...

Hitchens' remarks are rude, boorish and mean-spirited. And pretty much exactly mirror my thoughts about Falwell. The last thing I read about Jerry that was so enjoyable ended up getting Larry Flynt sued.

(Falwell and his ilk really bring out the miserable so-and-so in me.)

We've been over some of this before. I agree with RD that the probability of a vast U.S. government conspiracy is zero. For practical purposes of conspiracy theory, there just is no monolithic gummint.

That was an interesting website. I skimmed the headlines and questions. I feel compelled to comment on two claims I really don't understand. One, why would autopsy photos & results be faked? Unless of course the hospital, doctors, coroner, etc. were all in on it. See paragraph 1. Second, if Kennedy was killed by a conservative movement because he was a potential civil rights hero, why didn't someone shoot LBJ? He actually was a civil rights hero.

Jabba the Falwell may have been able to spell "generosity of spirit" but he didn't understand the concept. I wouldn't waste any on him or any of ilk. I consider them dangerous enemies.

Omigod Michelle Pffiefer is on Oprah.

Tangent said: For someone who claims to fight against bigotry (of which Falwell was guilty on many occasions), Mr. Hitchens appears fairly bigoted himself.

Thank you for summing up my thoughts quite succinctly.

The bullet fragments are substitutes, anyway. Everyone knows that J. Edgar Hoover and the Mafia collaborated seamlessly.

After this week's headlines, can anyone really believe in a "government conspiracy?"

I know this next news flash may rock some of your deepest-held beliefs about our government, but Torqueberto's Justice Department says it has conducted an exhaustive search for Karl Rove's lost e-mails, but couldn't find anything except on teeny-weeny chain that was previously released.

Sometimes I just ask myself, who do those idiots even bother to release those kinds of mindless things.

Tangent I agree as well, although I cannot disagree with Hitchens comments directed at Falwell. When you choose to put yourself out in the public you are subjecting yourself to critism, and when you say as many mean spirited things as he did I would hope there would be people who choose not to let those comments go uncontested.

I thought it was JEH and the Illuminati?

833ppm (or .008%)of Sb in lead appears normal to me if it's pure, or "corroding", lead. Pure lead is indeed used in ball ammunition, the type that was found in Oswald's possession. Ball ammo, a.k.a. full metal jacket or FMJ, is a core of cast pure lead in a steel jacket, .
A professional killer would have likely used the more lethal expanding and non-jacketed ammo used by hunters. In that case the Sb level might have reached the 2-5% level and the composition would have likely included arsenic, copper and other stuff to harden the lead.
6.5x52 Carcano is a pretty mild cartridge, I'm a bit surprised to learn that a ball bullet fractured, but sillyer things have happened.

Q: Why do those idiots even bother to release those kinds of mindless things?

A: Vast Government Conspiracy.

I thought the number 42 did it. I mean, isn't 42 the answer?

The university in my hometown is conferring an honorary degree on Maher Arar, the Canadian man who was extraordinarily rendered by the US to Syria and tortured after the RCMP gave passed along false information.

http://www.nugget.ca/webapp/sitepages/content.asp?contentid=533005&catname=Local+News&classif=News+Live

SCC:

Of course, "after the RCMP gave passed along false information" should have been "after the RCMP gave passed along transmitted repeated false information."

Or something like that.

The word "antinomy" always makes me think of alchemy. Perhaps that's why I find the whole "science" of bullet composition analysis so unlikely.

Didn't Cleopatra use antinomy in her cosmetics?

Yesterday evening, Eric Bakovic (over at Language Log) said something which summarized my feelings perfectly. Isn't it wonderful when everything you want to say is already said?

http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004503.html

He quotes Falwell's infamous statement on **The 700 Club** from 13 September 2001:

"I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way--all of them who have tried to secularize America--I point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen.'"

Bakovic noticed that immediately after playing this clip, both PBS and NPR stated that Falwell apologized. Hunting through the record, Bakovic gathers evidence that the supposed "apology" was of the papal genre, "I'm sorry you were offended" rather than "I'm sorry for what I said." The key part for me, however, is this bit:

"Respect for the recently deceased be damned. Falwell said the words above just two days after the terrible attacks that killed thousands of innocent people and shocked people from all walks of life across the nation and the world. Where was Falwell's respect?"

"Didn't Cleopatra use antinomy in her cosmetics?" Some antioxidants?

In case anyone didn't click on it, the website I linked to is actually a very scholarly site debunking the conspiracy theorists.

Which clearly means the author is part of the conspiracy.

Now I have a 2:00 meeting with my alien masters that I am late for.

Very interesting website on the assasination. I never wanted to believe the Warren Commissions report because it is very painful to realize that some disturbed little man could have had such dumb luck with his aim. But I don't believe any of the conspiracy theories either. The only evil genius who could have pulled that off is Karl Rove and he was only 13 at the time.

I agree with Byoolin about Hitchens' remarks on Falwell. I snickered the whole time I was reading them and then felt guilty for a half a second. But I don't like Hitchens either. I think he's a pompous a$$.

"42" is the answer--but "the number 42" did not do it. People who forgot about the 247 card-carrying communists in the State Department often make this same mistake.

More recently--like, in the current century--people have pointed to "9/11" as the answer. Others insist that it is the rationale, something entirely different from the answer.

"42" is the answer--but "the number 42" did not do it. People who forgot about the 247 card-carrying communists in the State Department often make this same mistake.

More recently--like, in the current century--people have pointed to "9/11" as the answer. Others insist that it is the rationale, something entirely different from the answer.

re.: Mr. Hitchens

As I said the other day, Mr. Falwell would be revered by some and reviled by others. Mr. Hitchens' commentary is just as over the top as some of Mr. Falwell's remarks. One tends to lose credibility with more sensibly minded folks when speaking so vehemently of others. Mr. Hitchens needs to take a powder.

Antimony, like alimony, Ivansmom. Sb is simpler, from the latin stibium. I had a cat (black, of course) name Stibnite, the most common ore of Sb. I have a cat called Chrysotile now. I'm such a dork.

Ivansmom, I think you may be confusing Cleo's cosmetics with her boy toy, Mark Antinomy. (After which I believe she famously may have clasped an asp to her bosom. Why, I have no idea. People do the kinkiest things. If I had a bosom, I doubt I'd get my jollies clasping an asp to it [them? I can never remember if bosom is singular or collective singular]. But I try not to be judgemental about such things.)

>The only evil genius who could have pulled that off is Karl Rove and he was only 13 at the time.

Made me snort, Bad. But I'm not sure if you were suggesting his age disqualified him as a suspect, or merely pointed out his early precociousness.

Hitchens sounds like he's scared while Dawkins seems exasperated. Just my impression.
I've received e-mails from people I haven't heard from in a long while. Every one is glad Falwells dead, they just disagree on how many there are left to go.
As for respect for his family, he's installed one of his spawn in charge of his coven and another runs his misinformation factory. Add nepotism to the evil toad's crimes.

>However, it seems like Mr. Hitchens is saying that *Christianity* is immoral and nothing but lies,

Tangent, I'm not sure where that came from because I don't see it anywhere in his remarks. I don't see how what Falwell spouted really had much to do with actual religion or Christianity as I understand it.

So I hate to be a contrarian (well, not really) but while I've never been a big fan of Hitchens I think he's pretty much right on target with Mr. Falwell.

Good riddance.

Calling cats after ores makes a strange kind of sense, Shrieking.

Jack, thanks for the link to the article on synthol and bodybuilding. I must admit, I didn't finish page 1 before I thought immediately, "Why didn't Popeye give Olive Oyl some synthol for her chest?"

And isn't Synthol a ferengi drink, too?

Did I write evil toad? I meant god-fearing, moral paragon, of course.
Mercy me.

The tent called Christianity is huge, as is the tent labeled atheist. So, we see here the inhumanity possible within these two communities. Neither Falwell nor Hitchens spoke or speaks for the entire community that each person claimed(s).

Fallwell never spoke for me. In fact, Fallwell came from a tradition that once told me that my Catholic community was, well, not really Christian. I know what it feels like to hear such talk. Awful. Hitchens speaks from the same playbook. Equally awful.

I like what Tangent reminds us: Jesus was never a Christian. He was a Jew, living in an occupied territory. Furthermore, he was born in poverty, fled with his family to stay alive, worked with his hands, was nothing but authentically pastoral. He was unjustly accused, tortured, and sentenced to a cruel and painful death.

For what? He had the audacity to question authority and focus instead on love.

I am reading letters between Arthur Clarke and C.S. Lewis. The quality and tone of the lively debate enriches me. Better to spend time reading them, then dwelling on Falwell and Hitchens

The link 'Sneaks provided to the excerpt from Gore's book is worth reading. The words free exchange of ideas and opinions are used often. Like here.

Sorry, RD. I only read the top portion of that web site and didn't get down to the de-bunking part.

I read the Gore thing. I think he's running for president. The big wet kiss to the net roots ...

Torquberto may be in trouble. The Democratic leadership in the Senate i sorganizing for a vote of no confidence in the AG.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/17/AR2007051700260.html?hpid=topnews

Um didn't Popeye have skinny biceps. It was his upper wrists that were massive, from all that rope tying.

Where's the 'Don't Believe in Wodin Beer Tent?' Good partys over there and it is huge.

Here's a link: http://www.geocities.com/~shovalfilm/images/popeye-yam-spin.gif

Error:
I'm basing my assertion on his tone during the interview (having watched the video of it), and the title of his book, something about "How Religion Poisons Everything." To me, that sounds like he's attacking Christianity in general (at which I take offense) and Falwell specifically (at which I take considerably LESS offense).

I believe, Boko, that the Wodin-Disbelief/Beer Belief Tent is yonder, behind the AchenblogLand Tent. Use Google, by starting with your home address; Enter "Valhalla Deconstructed" as your destination. I believe that an assisted living community in Bergen, Nordsk will be named that shortly.

I think Hitchins is attacking false Christians. We talk about that a lot here. Too many people claim to be Christians but don't follow nearly any of the basic tenets of Christianity. (And you know who I'm talking about.)

He is correct when he says by putting the word "Reverend" before a name, folks get away with saying awful stuff.

And that's often true because too many people, Tangent for example, are quick to say that anyone disagreeing with the Reverend is attacking Christianity.

As far as I'm concerned, Jerry Falwell's biggest sin was working to break down the separation of church and state. Those of us who have read the histories of the 16th and 17th centuries understand the wisdom behind the founders' intent in creating that wall. That he was bigoted merely shows the smallness and shallowness of the man. The cracks in the church/state separation have dire consequences for us all.

Tangent, Hitchens isn't singling out Christianity; he's down with the whole religion thing.

http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/0446579807/

Falwell is, to him, the very worst manifestation of what he perceives as wrong with religion.

Me thinks he doeth complain too much and too boorishly.

>To me, that sounds like he's attacking Christianity in general

Well, I think he's attacking all religion, if anything, and I happen to agree that a lot of components of what people do with their beliefs hardly help them. For instance, all the people stuck in Katrina that just stood there saying "God will provide". Yeah, he sent you a boat, get the hell out of the flood.

Then we get into the fact that even people who supposedly believe in the same God seem quite willing to hate others who put a comma in a different place in the texts.

On an individual level religion can be a wonderful comfort and a prescription for doing good, but for some the idea of doing good and defending your faith is strapping on a bomb belt and going into a cafe.

I'd say that's fairly poisonous.

That Gore excerpt is interesting. As is his custom, I fear he may be overstating his case a bit to make a point, but that's quibbling with strategy. His underlying argument that the nation is less and less inclined to take the effort to really think hard issues through is well taken - and not limited to the right.

Part of this phenomenon, I assert, is information overload. When assaulted with too much conflicting data some people simply shut down and fall back on ideology. But I also suspect that many people simply do not know how to think. Basic logic seems beyond much of the populace. Not only is logic not taught much anymore, but the very word seems to have become vaguely threatening.

It's as if clear thinking has become equated with a lack of emotional sensitivity and kindness. The message seems to be mean people think, but nice people feel. A message that, again, is not limited to one political philosophy.

Perhaps the salvation is in the example set by good rational thinkers. Maybe we all need to prove to the world that logical thinking is a virtue. For instance, I support Al Gore for a solid and exceptionally logical reason.

I think Tipper's kinda hot.

Que es mas macho - think or feel? I've spent almost the whole last ten years teaching the Boy to think, by example and exhaustive conversation. My goal is to have him outthink me. Part of this is convincing him that nice people can both think and feel. Also, that a mean thinker may be a worse enemy than someone who is mean without thinking. Que es mas malo -- Arbusto or Cheney?

I took Tangent to mean that, in addition to attacking the Rev., she believed Hitchins was attacking Christianity; that is, I didn't get any sense that Tangent was defending the Rev.

Omni, synthol, which is an oil, works wherever you inject it. If it's in the triceps branchii and the other extensors etc. then the puff hits there, and you would indeed get a Popeyeish physique.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Fitness/Story?id=3179969&page=1

Of course, this begs why Popeye never got Olive Oyl to try it on her chest.

http://www.bodybuildingpro.com/synthol/

And next we know, we'll be finding that Chinese pork and beef have synthol injections all along to make them look more meaty, too.

Of course logic is not longer taught to kids. They've got to pass extremely picky multiple-choice tests to progress in school.

Asking a kid how many pounds of tea was dumped in the Boston Harbor is pretty stupid. That was an actual question on the Virginia SOL test.

And teaching her those kind of facts in order for her to pass such a test is doing her an amazing disservice.

Yes.. I agree with Ivansmom. We've got to teach our kids to think. We definitely do that in our house. Maybe too much, judging from the questions and arguments we get now that the kids are older. But it's all good, don't worry.

That was a real question, TBG? Jeez, I have no idea how much tea we dumped -- and I was doing a lot of the dumping. Believe me, humping those &^%$# chests of tea up onto the deck from the hold was hard work, and the sweat made my war paint run. I kept telling everybody, why the hell don't they pack this stuff into little tiny paper sacks or something, maybe with a little teeny-tiny rope lanyard attached to them, so you can dunk 'em easier. But did anybody listen to me? Nooooooooooooooooo.

Poor Mudge. Must be tough, to have spent 6 centuries with people who didn't pay attention to useful and commonsensical advice!

Hitchens, like Dawkins try to debunk all religion and magical thinking. Good luck to them. I think their vehemence is a reaction to the depredations of some religious people on science, the secular sphere, common sense and common decency.
Ratzinger (the future patron saint of child molesters) has just condemned what he calls hedonistic secularism. I find that offensive. The secular sphere is the only place that clever people like Hitchens, Dawkins and me can communicate with the religious idiots who disagree with us. In mutual love and respect(do I really need one of those dopey happy faces?:-))

I'm not sure schools *ever* taught logic or critical thinking. What I remember of school was being force-fed a random assortment of concepts and factoids. That and English "electives," such as Advertising. I wasn't even taught aboout topic sentences and the like until college.

What I think is happening with logic and thinking overall is the rejection of "judging" anything. A logical thought process is quite likely to result in a *judgement* about something. So why think when the end result is something that is more and more looked down upon?

And if them have their ilk.
What's us got?

Rather than judgement Raysmom, I prefer to think of it as my rational decision, having weighed the information I came to a conclusion. Now where I to think my conclusion is the only possible conclusion then then it might be a judgement.

I am always open to the idea that I am wrong however, (I may not easily admit it though) :-)

Boko I do not have any problem with Athiest as long as they do not try to tell me I am stupid for believing what I do, I respect their beliefs and expect them to respect mine.

Billy Collins's The Lanyard:

The other day as I was ricocheting slowly
off the blue walls of this room
bouncing from typewriter to piano
from bookshelf to an envelope lying on the floor,
I found myself in the "L" section of the dictionary
where my eyes fell upon the word, Lanyard.
No cookie nibbled by a French novelist
could send one more suddenly into the past.
A past where I sat at a workbench
at a camp by a deep Adirondack lake
learning how to braid thin plastic strips into a lanyard.
A gift for my mother.
I had never seen anyone use a lanyard.
Or wear one, if that's what you did with them.
But that did not keep me from crossing strand over strand
again and again until I had made a boxy, red and white lanyard for my mother.
She gave me life and milk from her breasts,
and I gave her a lanyard
She nursed me in many a sick room,
lifted teaspoons of medicine to my lips,
set cold facecloths on my forehead
then led me out into the airy light
and taught me to walk and swim and I in turn presented her with a lanyard.
"Here are thousands of meals" she said,
"and here is clothing and a good education."
"And here is your lanyard," I replied,
"which I made with a little help from a counselor."
"Here is a breathing body and a beating heart,
strong legs, bones and teeth and two clear eyes to read the world." she whispered.
"And here," I said, "is the lanyard I made at camp."
"And here," I wish to say to her now,
"is a smaller gift. Not the archaic truth,
that you can never repay your mother,
but the rueful admission that when she took the two-toned lanyard from my hands,
I was as sure as a boy could be
that this useless worthless thing I wove out of boredom
would be enough to make us even."

>I'm not sure schools *ever* taught logic or critical thinking.

I had a great history teacher who went out of his way to teach us critical reading skills. Bless that man.

dmd, be honest - what you think of people who believe in Thor's Magic Hammer?

dmd | I respect you and I will respect any opinion you can back up with evidence. I am not required to respect your beliefs.

Excuse me, Troll999.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and I would ask you not to blithely offend all the Catholics on this blog with your slander of the Pope.

As you may not realize, being indifferent to christianity, there is a tradition among many protestants that the Antichrist will be a pope, thus, slanders of the Pope are routine reading.
Secondly, there are a strong group of hardline conservative catholics who think the reforms enacted at the Second Vatican council (such as doing the mass in language people understand rather than in Latin), etc. have robbed the heart of the Catholic church. They will always be critical of the current Catholic administration until we go back to the old ways, and probably not even then.

I'm personally sick of hearing prejudiced claptrap about Catholicism and I don't want to see it here. Period. You can talk about your beliefs without doing ad hominem arguments.

And hedonistic secularism is materialism and pursuing the pleasures of the flesh, let morality hang, and he is correct to condemn it. Next time you jump to conclusions, at least read what "hedonistic" actually means.

If I was a true hedonistic secularist, I would be a con man and sociopath operating on my whims, not by any moral compass-- like de Sade.

That is very different from secular humanism, for instance, which advocates an ethical way of life and working for the betterment of our own lives and humamity.

Error you have asked me this before, why do I care? I would only begin to care if the other belief wanted to physically harm me, my family or country. I may protest aspects with I see harming others (for example I watched an honour killing on CNN today), very loosely tied to their religion. I would not ask them to change their religion but end the practise of honour killings and more importantly respect women.

Boko didn't mean you had to respect my beliefs, just my right to hold them, by why the hostility.

I guess I often find athiests very close to evangelical christians always trying to convert people, that makes me uncomfortable. I would be interested in hearing the philosophy but with the understanding that it is for my information and I may or may not change my beliefs.

Thank you, bill everything, for that poem.

I had several grade school teachers who not only taught the basics of writing, but the basics of thinking. There was nothing like a formal "logic" course, but comparison, distinguishing, etc. I agree with Raysmom that, to some people, this becomes uncomfortably close to "judging". I don't have a problem with judging ("honey, this is bad art, can you see why?") although I am open to the possibility of error. As opposed to Error, of course, who is more than possible.

Time to jump right in here and turn the topic into something completely different. The other day, somebody (CP? Yoki?) mentioned that their favorite poet is Whitman. Well, two Sunday's ago, Prairie Home Companion did its annual poetry show, which you can listen to online at http://prairiehome.publicradio.org/programs/2007/05/05/index.shtml

On it, Allan Ginsberg, Keillor and Robert Bly read Whitman's Song of Myself. And my favorite poet, Billy Collins, reads seven of his poems, the first one being "The Revenant," a first-person (or perhaps, first-canine) confession of a dog to his master who has just had him "put to sleep"; the opening stanza is:

I am the dog you put to sleep
As you like to call the needle of oblivion
Come back to tell you this simple thing:
I never liked you.

It's very funny (Wilbrodog would especially enjoy it, methinks). Then Meryl Streep and GK read a bunch of poems by Updike, Henry Taylor, Langston Hughes and others, and Rita Dove reads three of hers. And Randy Newman sings a couple of funny songs. And of course a segment from "Lives of the Cowboys" as well as the Lake Woebegon monolog. I mean, what's not to like? A terrific show.

>I would not ask them to change their religion but end the practise of honour killings and more importantly respect women.

But that IS asking them to change their religion if that's what their religion is. YOU don't get to decide that.

As far as Thir's Hammer goes let's face it, you'd think they were stupid to worship a hammer. You wouldn't spit on them in public because you're a nice person, but over the dinner table you'll tell a story about this loony you met and their stupid belief.

I firmly believe in Maxwell's Silver Hammer.

But I guess that's, like, totally different.

"I guess I often find athiests very close to evangelical christians always trying to convert people..."

Which is why I always self describe as a Heathen dmd. True Heathens never try to proselytize, but we might invite you over for beer and brats when you should be at church. We're just fun that way.

Wilbrod, full text here: http://riannanworld.typepad.com/my_weblog/2006/01/the_revenant_by.html

Error, with the honour killings and respecting women, it is no different then when religions claimed justification for slavery based on the bible. They used ancient writings that no longer apply in modern times, and may never have applied at all unless you put a a strong emphasis on a tiny portion of the writings.

Life is about change, growth and adaptation. Somethings are just wrong, killing is one, in the country it happened the honour killing is illegal yet continues, it is as much cultural as religious and as a women I feel I have every right to say it is wrong.

I loved studying the mythology of the Norse and Native indians, I did not laugh but thought it beautiful.

It was funny; seeing the word "lanyard" in 'Mudge's tale of the Tea Party hit me square between the eyes. See also Weingarten's Wednesday chat update for a link to a prior BtB regarding Collins.

Thank you for that link, Curmudgeon. I miss the poetry show. We in Oklahoma no longer hear Prairie Home Companion. Our station dropped it, with the listeners' complete understanding, after Keillor dissed us for no reason. A few years ago he came to do an outdoor show and hundreds of folks sat in the pouring rain (myself and the Boy among them), laughing and enjoying the performers who were on a covered stage. The rain didn't let up the whole time. Apparently the noise of the rain covered our laughter, etc., because Keillor went off in a later show on what a rotten audience we were and how you just couldn't do political humor in red-state OK. This was not true, the crowd loved it, he just couldn't hear or see us (did I mention it was raining and we were sitting under umbrellas and tarps?). His snit cost him a syndication market and a bunch of listeners.

Wilbrod, I find it interesting that you begin a complaint about ad hominem attacks with one. Do you think I just woke up one morning and thought Ratzy was vile. I've been following his career in horrified facsination. When Ratzinger coughs up the pedophiles and their enablers I'll withdraw my characteriztion. I attacked Ratzinger, not you.
You don't seem to mind people dissing Bush and at least he never sent a letter to the world's Bishops reminding them that anyone taking evidence of child rape to the polce could be excommunicated.
The evidence is their for anyone to see. I'll provide the links to anyone boko999@hotmail. Don't believe me judge for yourself.

Jeez, this is spooky. I wrote my post about PHC and Billy Collins without know bill was going to post "The Lanyard." Collins reads that very poem on the program.

>I loved studying the mythology of the Norse

Me too, but that's quite a bit different than meeting a guy wearing a horned helmet who lives his life based on what side of the hammer has appeared in the clouds today.

You wouldn't think that's stupid? How about voodoo? Skip the political correctness for a minute and be honest - you'd think it's stupid.

>If I was a true hedonistic secularist, I would be a con man and sociopath operating on my whims, not by any moral compass-- like de Sade.

Wilbrod, little over the top today eh?

"Hedonism: Pursuit of or devotion to pleasure, especially to the pleasures of the senses"

Look it up yourself. Nothing there that implies being a con man and sociopath. You're doing the same thing that Islamists do when they think they have to "defend the Prophet". He's just a guy.

Anyone who has extramarital sex and doesn't wear a cross counts as a hedonistic secularist to a man who hasn't had any in 70 years.

TBG:
Never did I say "that anyone disagreeing with the Reverend is attacking Christianity." I vehemently disagree with Falwell on virtually everything that he spouted about: the Rapture, mixing an established Church w/ the state, etc. etc. I think that his words spoken after 9/11 were deplorable, and dare I say, evil. That clear enough for you?

If I am guilty of going off on a, well, tangent, or reading too much into Hitchens, please forgive me.

"I respect their beliefs and expect them to respect mine."

I think this is where Dawkins, Hitchens and myself might have a problem. There are beliefs that are so ridiculous, dangerous, murderous, etc., that they are not worthy of respect. Does GWB believe in the rapture? If so, he should be impeached as that belief disqualifies him from a position where he is steward of the country, its people and resources. For that one belief alone.

Not sure, but I suspect when the pope condemns hedonistic secularism, he's referring to secular humanism, with a rhetorical embellishment.

TBG, I won't tell you where the Greek/Italian restaurant is. I will take you there. It's about a ten minute walk from the house where I grew up, so I've known it my whole life...the food is good and cheap. I wanted to go today because they have fried squash on the menu (Mondays and Thursdays only).

My brother ate well and looks better than he has, because the Hospice folks are watching over him closely. His mental state so saddens me; there are many memories I'd love to hear and won't now. I see the need to stay close and help as much as I can, to give my niece a break. Dealing with a parent in this state is difficult; fortunately, he's always been a sweet person and isn't combative. I will try to get him out as often as I can so she can do whatever she wants/needs to.

Post headline up now: "Confidence Ebbs on Gonzalez."

Oh, really? When did that start? Gracious sakes alive.

dmd | I don't want to convert anyone . How could I? I just want people to examine their beliefs critically. I didn't think it was a secret I was hostile to any sort of magical thinking. Homeopathy, astrology, Ramtha, New Ageism. And the biggest and perhaps most dangerous nonsense, the post modern denial that there even such a thing as objective evidence.
My soapbox on this subject is now closed.

Error, so long as the hammer doesn't tell someone in the morning that a particular, race, gender or sexual orientation are inferior I am OK with it.

Yes I laugh at certain religious belief, many in the church I grew up in but they tend to be aspects not the belief itself. I would take Thor over L. Ron Hubbard any day, of course that starts another conversation on what constitutes religion, another day perhaps.

LTL, I would not endorse anything that harms others on ground that it is religious belief.

Tangent... no harm meant. I was using you as an example and I knew at the time it might sound, well, kind of shltty, but I was in a hurry and didn't have time to find a way around that. I shouldn't have done it and I'm very sorry I did.

I usually end up just deleting the post completely and going on with my business elsewhere but for some reason I didn't this time and I feel bad.

I don't think you agree with what Falwell said. I'm sure you are not one of the false Christians I was talking about. You always have careful, thoughtful posts and I hope I didn't give the idea that I thought otherwise.

On a side tangent (ha!) I was glad to see that today's paper edition had a huge picture on the cover of the funeral of Marine Maj. Douglas A. Zembiec, who was killed in Iraq. I think we need to honor these people on the front page every day.

The front page:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/print/asectionfrontimage.html

The article:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/16/AR2007051602860.html

Hey, tangent. How's cosine doing? You and she still an "item"?

>Error, so long as the hammer doesn't tell someone in the morning that a particular, race, gender or sexual orientation are inferior I am OK with it.

Isn't that what all religion does? It tells everyone else that if they don't believe the same thing they're not good enough to get into paradise.

That would make them inferior, and not on the basis of any race, gender or sexual orientation, merely on the basis of rejecting an unprovable assertion.

To denigrate someone for holding an irrational position is folly. We all accept irrational precepts. Notions such as the equality of the sexes, that the induction of needless pain is bad, and that only things that we can understand are worthy of respect are all irrational. None can be proven in a scientific sense. All must either be accepted as "self evident" or reduced down to simpler precepts that are.

The conflict is between which irrational notions deserve the most respect. And this is a worthwhile and important debate.

But please, let none of us delude ourselves into believing that we are rational and everyone else is not.

The only truly rational beings are psychotics.

Ahem, ER, Jesus' message is that the Kingdom of God is open to all; all one has to do is to accept it. Extremely easy, yet the most difficult act most of us could ever do.

Wolfowitz to leave World Bank

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-WorldBank-Wolfowitz.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

Wow. From scarey to incomprehensible in 60 seconds.

Boko, I have read Ratzinger's work and I respect his theology considerably, even when I disagree with it. How can you really find a counterexample to this:

"As a first step, we can respond to this question with another: what is this 'reality'? What is real? Are only material goods, social, economic and political problems 'reality'? This was precisely the great error of the dominant tendencies of the last century, a most destructive error, as we can see from the results of both Marxist and capitalist systems. They falsify the notion of reality by detaching it from the foundational and decisive reality which is God. Anyone who excludes God from his horizons falsifies the notion of 'reality' and, in consequence, can only end up in blind alleys or with recipes for destruction."

Human nature can't be changed by wishful thinking-- communism assumed everybody'd work for the common good, and religion was the opiate of the people anyway. It didn't work out that way.
And I think atheists who attempt to convince people and societies to abandon religion by use of reason are not going to succeed, probably because they do not actually understand religion to start with.

Consider this fact: this a man who lived through World War II-- in a country on the wrong side. He saw the rise of communism and its fall in the Soviet Union, the Berlin wall built and torn down. He has written a lot on theology and in fact supports ecumenism and states that it is not necessary to believe in Jesus to be saved (which I agree with. It's an accurate reading of a particular passage in the Bible.)

With such a background and a history of THINKING about it... don't you think just maybe he understands the full impact of anti-religious, secular sentiment in a culture a bit more than you do, and how political dogma can be far more divisive than religious dogma?

I found the quote Boko cited. He is in Brazil right now and was addressing people there in a country that has rampant drug culture and extreme inequality of rich and poor and absolutely no concern for the poor from the rich-- indeed a real mainfestation of hedonistic secularism. Here is the article.

http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=9203&size=A

Interestingly, he says also:

"Respect for a healthy secularity--including the pluralism of political opinions--is essential in the authentic Christian tradition. If the Church were to start transforming herself into a directly political subject, she would do less, not more, for the poor and for justice, because she would lose her independence and her moral authority, identifying herself with a single political path and with debatable partisan positions."

He is very clear, and in this he is also arguing against liberation theology; many priests were giving overt political help to Marxist guerillas in Latin American countries-- out of sincere desire to help the poor, but playing a dangerous game, a game that has gotten quite a number of priests and nuns killed for political reasons.

Also, to me, it means that American bishops shouldn't be meddling in politics like they did in the 2004 presidental election.

I'm still upset that Bokononists don't have a tombstone image. I'm thinking a picture of a lace string figure.

Paulson, Sec. of the Treasury is on the News Hour. Darned if he doesn't look like a central casting version of Daddy Warbucks.

Wilbrod. I want to give your your post the thought it deserves so I won't comment now. I should have been more considerate of some boodlers feelings. I'll restrain my troll like impulses and make nice.

Lordy! By EF's definition I'm a secular hedonist. Ans all along I thought I was just a yankee

Hey all...

Heading off early tomorrow morning to NH and won't be back 'til late Monday.

Boodling is highly unlikely.

Somehow I'll survive.

Have a great weekend, my friends!

:-)

Have a great trip Scottynuke! I've never been to New Hampshire.

Heck, I've never even been to Old Hamsphire.

To EF: Push aside the extreme fundamentalists of all faiths. These prescriptive formulae are NOT at all the heart of faith.

The heart of faith concerns love. Love. Love for the self, the community, the world. A practical extension of love for self, community, and world requires that we consider right living. This means codes, laws, norms, rules will arise. This is human, the growth of a bureau and authority.

Let me speak for a moment as a Christian with rather cosmic stripes: I am loved by the awesome and personal force in the Universe. I believe this. I live this. Do I know it? Not as Aristotle, Bacon, Decartes, Einstein and Sagan might know things. But, I believe. That is the essence of faith.

But these scientists also respond to the awe that is creation. This thrills me, this common experience of Nature. They know the world -- pieces of it -- and want to know more. I feel this surge toward rational apprehension of reality too. Yes! Common ground.

Back to religion, which is a cultural and human response to the experience of the sacred: What is my responsibility? To love others. To work for justice. To elevate human dignity. To bow down before the awesomeness of creation and force. I bow to honor the mystery and majesty. I am not yoked. I am not broken. I am not commanded.

I am loved.

---
At the kernal of all authentic religious experience is something of
awe
and something of
justice.

Beautiful, CP.

As a codicil to what Wilbrod says, the mixing of religion and politics is a crucible of fire and an unstable one at that.

Fr. Ignacia Ellacuria, one of the Jesuits slaughtered with friends and companions, taught a seminar I took my last year in college. He was the graduation speaker for my commencement. Before the year closed, he was executed by Salvadoran Army thugs (with US backing). He was a noted thinker of moderate but active liberation theology. Our course concerned the role of education in transforming Latin American.

Here is what Wikepedia notes about Ellacuria and his companions, including Fr. Jon Sobrino who is still living:

BEGIN WIKI QUOTE: Ellacuria thought that it is possible for reason and faith to merge in confronting the reality of the poor. Reason must open its eyes to their suffering; while faith sees in the weak of this world what salvation must mean and the conversion to which we are called.

Such a university must take into account the preferential option for the poor. This does not mean that only the poor will study at the university; it does not mean that the university should abdicate its mission of academic excellence--excellence which is needed in order to solve complex social issues of our time. What it does mean is that the university should be present intellectually where it is needed: to provide science for those without science; to provide skills for those without skills; to be a voice for those without voices; to give intellectual support for those who do not possess the academic qualifications to make their rights legitimate. END WIKI QUOTE

Sorry for boodle-hogging, but I think readers here might appreciate another facet of faith in action.

Awesome, Wilbrod and CP.

Scotty have a terrific weekend.

RD, I have never once deluded myself into believing I was rational, I settle for an attempt at rationality.

EF, I worry less with the details and look more at the fundamentals of religion and at the core from what I have seen the belief are similar, as CP said, love, honour, respect - it is humankind who has distorted that in our various ways.

Nor can I tell you I one hundred percent believe in God, but I do respect others faith, not the faith of Falwell et al, but of the ordinary person.

On a much better topic, saw the line up for our Music Festival today, 4 day event full of free concerts, one of my favorite fun bands from my teenage years is playing (Teenage Head), as well as a mixture of others I would like to see Jazz, Rock and Celtic. Should be lots of fun.

dmd, I hear you. I'm commenting more on the general taboo against applying rational thought and analysis to anything that's considered "religious".

Whoopsie, I slew the boodle, slinging theology about. I am sorry. 'Mudge, I am going through the vat of industrial ACME detergent as I wipe up the mess. Sorry. You'll have to order more, or rather, order Scotty to order more, since you are the "delegator." I like that better than "delegater."

Wolfowitz is out!!! Hurrah! His last day at the World Bank is June 30, and I could not be happier (well, I guess I'll wait to see who Bush nominates to replace him before I celebrate too much).

My favorite Don Williams song:

Well, I don't believe that heaven waits,
For only those who congregate.
I like to think of God as love:
He's down below, He's up above.
He's watching people everywhere.
He knows who does and doesn't care.
And I'm an ordinary man,
Sometimes I wonder who I am.

But I believe in love.
I believe in music.
I believe in magic.
And I believe in you.

Read the whole thing here:
http://www.cowboylyrics.com/lyrics/williams-don/i-believe-in-you-10626.html

Dagnabit, you step away from the computer for just a few hours, then rush back to break the news, only to find you've been scooped999. Resume your regular programming.

It seems there is more love expressed for the unconcieved in Africa than for the living. How many dead through the deliberate misinformation campaign waged againsst condoms by the church? These theological niceities have an affect in the real world. Which IMO does not need a god to exist. Certainly not the god portrayed in the OT, which wriggle as you might has only been slightly improved upon since.
I know my mother loved me even as she was dealing with trollishness. Hell, that was part of the evidence of her love. I know my sister and her kids love me through their words and actions. I wouldn't demean their love by claiming the universe loves me.
The only priest I was on a first name basis with had been exiled to northern Ontario after having been chucked out of Haiti by that freedom loving anticommunist Baby Doc Duvalier. The only bad thing I ever heard him say about another person was that the last head of the church was misguided. I almost plotzed. He was sympathetic to liberaton theology but no Marxist. He was no fan of the Viet Nam war either and I suspect if he had been an American he would have been a war resister, sorry draft dodger.

I think this is rude zinger free.

I am aware of the animosty among some prots to catholics. I think I mentioned my roots are Scots Irish.
That's why I'll share this ribtickler with you.
A French Canadian Catholic started a chapter of the Ku Klux Klan in Quebec to keep out the Haitians.
Joke and punchline all rolled into one.

Bull Durham (1988)

[Opening narration]
Annie Savoy: I believe in the Church of Baseball. I've tried all the major religions, and most of the minor ones. I've worshipped Buddha, Allah, Brahma, Vishnu, Siva, trees, mushrooms, and Isadora Duncan. I know things. For instance, there are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary and there are 108 stitches in a baseball. When I heard that, I gave Jesus a chance. But it just didn't work out between us. The Lord laid too much guilt on me. I prefer metaphysics to theology. You see, there's no guilt in baseball, and it's never boring... which makes it like sex. There's never been a ballplayer slept with me who didn't have the best year of his career. Making love is like hitting a baseball: you just gotta relax and concentrate. Besides, I'd never sleep with a player hitting under .250... not unless he had a lot of RBIs and was a great glove man up the middle. You see, there's a certain amount of life wisdom I give these boys. I can expand their minds. Sometimes when I've got a ballplayer alone, I'll just read Emily Dickinson or Walt Whitman to him, and the guys are so sweet, they always stay and listen. 'Course, a guy'll listen to anything if he thinks it's foreplay. I make them feel confident, and they make me feel safe, and pretty. 'Course, what I give them lasts a lifetime; what they give me lasts 142 games. Sometimes it seems like a bad trade. But bad trades are part of baseball - now who can forget Frank Robinson for Milt Pappas, for God's sake? It's a long season and you gotta trust. I've tried 'em all, I really have, and the only church that truly feeds the soul, day in, day out, is the Church of Baseball

yassuh

Dang. Killed the Boodle.

Wilbrod, In your first post you assumed a profound ignorance on my part and in your second post an you inferred that while the current head of the catholic had THOUGHT about his positions, I had not. Let me assure you neither is true. Evidence supplied upon request.

I got it, thanks: everyone is nice and open-minded and just all about the love. That's great, and just how I like it.

But that is not exactly what is espoused by leaders of the world's religions, including most of your own. They have much more restrictive policies and if you don't toe the line you're not coming to *our* heaven.

Please, that really is the whole point of having all those rules, isn't it?

Oboy, Professor Steven Tanhauer(sp?) is on CBC Radio1 explaining the connections between Jung's archtypes and astrology. If I believed in an afterlife I might cut my throat.

Tonk love the Bull Durham quote.

Boko re Africa - I concur it is a disgrace.

Hi ER -- will be brief, here. (Am not a theologian but did study this in college :)

Roman Catholics DO NOT have a litmus test on heaven. Really. This is a big dividing line between Catholics and many Protestant denominations. RCs believe that lots of folks are in heaven who are not Christian. Really. Check it out. I'll try to find a cite for you, but for now you will have to trust my patent leather shoes/plaid skirt of k-12, Jesuit-trained credentials, and warm seat in the pew these many past years.

You may be thinking of the medieval practice of simony....that was long ago and far away.

Hi ER -- will be brief, here. (Am not a theologian but did study this in college :)

Roman Catholics DO NOT have a litmus test on heaven. Really. This is a big dividing line between Catholics and many Protestant denominations. RCs believe that lots of folks are in heaven who are not Christian. Really. Check it out. I'll try to find a cite for you, but for now you will have to trust my patent leather shoes/plaid skirt of k-12, Jesuit-trained credentials, and warm seat in the pew these many past years.

The rules! Lots of 'em, but recall that we grew out of the Judaic tradition and they are law-givers too. The rules govern life on earth, and tend to emphasize dignity and respect for self and others. The rules are not standardized test/permanent record for entrance to heaven.

You may be thinking of the medieval practice of simony....that was long ago and far away.

Whew. that was weird. I promise I did not hit submit twice.

Enjoy your evening, all. Will walk in the dark garden to look at the white buds on a huge and unnamed rose, and gather in that last elixer of the peonies.

God bless. Really. If you prefer, run it through the Whatsit-Widget machine and call it good thoughts.

I love that CP felt so strongly about her post she reiterated it.

CP, I bailed out of Catholic school after fifth grade so if you say so, well fine. But I find it hard to believe there's going to be anyone there who doesn't believe in the resurrection and virgin birth. Jews? No rules, everyone in the pool?

Oooh. Its the Energies. Now I get it.
SCC Its Richard Tarnas, author of Cosmos and Psyche.

Boko, so have I thought about my position on various matters.

I'm with you with disliking the church postion on contraception and AIDS in Africa. But take a look at this: http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/facts/fm0045.html

Even before this I had this question, has the Catholic church done worse harm than the U.S. government who refuses to fund anything related to contraception and family planning through the UN, practically closing or defunding a lot of essential free clinics for women?

At least the Catholic church has traditionally subsidized hospitals, orphanages, schools, and other resources. I would not say they show a lack of concern for the poor at all.

Truly, contraception issues also involve considerable power dynamics. They invented a female condom called "reality" because the reason was that men wouldn't be putting on condoms in various countries because it was un-macho.

Okay, let's assume Reality solves the pratical problem of contraception. Here's a wife all suited up against AIDS and what not. Now what about the relationship issues?

I ask you, if a man came home and found out his wife was wearing a condom because she didn't trust he wasn't infected by AIDS, you think the man is going to be thrilled?

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't be thrilled, even if I had in fact been sleeping with 10 women recently. This is my wife, she's supposed to trust and honor me, that's all there is to it.

For all I know, she's really cheating on me with somebody else now and using AIDS as an excuse to wear condoms.

(Package this in as much male chauvinist sentiment as you want, but it boils down to the same thing. He said no, she overrode him behind his back. What is he to think? What if he's allergic to latex and winds up with serious itching for a day afterwards thanks to Reality?)

Also keep in mind we are talking about cultures in which polygamy and wife beating may be accepted, where womens' rights are limited.

So, I think it's deluded to address the issue solely with condoms when the broader issues involve personal and societal attitudes. What about drug and other needle use? Anal sex? Condoms won't stop that.

Dana Priest swatting away another fly today on her chat:

"Washington: If a government employee is determined to have provided classified information to an unauthorized person (journalist) should that employee be fired? Prosecuted?

Dana Priest: Is that chum I see in the
water?"

Man that was almost as good as Joel's response to that "mysterious" guy from Aluminum Hat on his Wednesday chat. I guess he learned a lesson. Funny, still can't find it on the map. Must be one of those new boom methane-producing towns.

...And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, "O Lord, bless this Thy hand grenade that with it Thou mayest blow Thine enemies to tiny bits, in Thy mercy." And the Lord did grin and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals, and fruit bats and large chu... [Whereupon the friar is urged, "skip a bit, brother"]... And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin, then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it." Amen.

Sometimes we have to just back off, agree to disagree [insert cliche here].

Error I can only speak for myself, I disagree as I said with Religious leaders, I am hoping they are wrong about the "criteria" for admittance to an afterlife, but cannot compromise on what I believe a just God would believe in, I think he would be horrified by some of the things we do in his name.

If I am wrong at least I can live with myself and if there is no God at all can't say I would live any differently.

Just spay-neuter all the troublesome people in the world on the least excuse.

The world's problems will be solved. Do I get a bone now?

Mudge, love that poem, and I'm glad I actually do like the gnome-- at least, some days anyways.

After all, there's the inward pleasure of knowing that if I wanted to, I could just forget my job and BOOM, no more gnome.

No bites, no foresnics, no nothing. I could easily set it up any day. Just like Lucky did. With five owners.

http://www.snopes.com/critters/malice/lucky.htm

(Rolling on the floor, grinning with laughter.)

>>has the Catholic church done worse harm than the U.S. government who refuses to fund anything related to contraception and family planning through the UN, practically closing or defunding a lot of essential free clinics for women?

Debatable, but the US Government (outside of a few wingnuts) doesn't claim to be God's moral authority on earth. You're asking me to choose the lesser of two evils. I choose the one that theoretically responds to it's citizens. In a bit. Maybe.

There's a couple of male chauvinist straw pigs next. Yes women are treated abysmally. How many of those men do you think are atheists? I don't how to respond.

>>So, I think it's deluded to address the issue solely with condoms when the broader issues involve personal and societal attitudes. What about drug and other needle use? Anal sex? Condoms won't stop that.

The main problem in Africa is hetrosexual intercourse. Condoms will ameliorate that.
Anal sex? Why do you think gay men wear condoms?

dmd, I'm hip. But if we're discussing religion, then it's their rules we're talking about. I'm not arguing with anyone's personal relationship with anything.

I'm just saying someone needs to fess up that the basic concept of religion really is one of exclusion.

You don't believe in Odin, you don't go to Valhalla.

I don't know why this is somehow controversial.

I think I can properly say the question is being begged here. I have no problem with the clergy telling Africans that Jesus doesn't want them to wear thingies on their John Thomases. I object to the church lying as to the effectivness of condoms to help prevent the transmission of AIDS.

The April issue of a nice little magazine called "The Sun" [thanks, Joel, for the recommendation in a previous Kit] has some great quotes about prayer and religion in its "Sunbeams" section:

He didn't know exactly what to pray for, in which he was like most people. For our real prayer, if we had the wits or the courage to formulate it, would be a general plea for everything to be all right forever.

-- Angela Thirkell

I find it very difficult to ask God for things in the way that I was taught as a child. Do I believe God is going to take away my illness when he turned an entirely deaf ear to the 6 million Jews who went into the gas chambers?

-- Karen Armstrong

When we pray to God we must be seeking nothing -- nothing.

-- Saint Francis of Assisi

Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day; give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish.

-- Source unknown

By means of all created things, without exception, the divine assails us, penetrates us, and molds us. We imagined it as distant and inaccessible, whereas in fact we live steeped in its burning layers.

-- Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

If you don't become the ocean, you'll be seasick every day.

-- Leonard Cohen

Most people do not pray; they only beg.

-- George Berbard Shaw

As my prayer became more attentive and inward, I had less and less to say. I finally became completely silent . . . . This is how it is. To pray does not mean to listen to oneself speaking. Prayer involves becoming silent, and being silent, and waiting until God is heard.

-- Soren Kierkegaard

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/achenblog/2006/09/the_sun_magazine_island_of_the.html

With Wolfie out of the way it looks like it will now be Gonzales 24/7 again:

http://www.slate.com/id/2166468/

http://www.slate.com/id/2166469/

Really, we're gonna miss the constant surprises his ineptitude gave us.

I'm tired and am intrigued by RD Padouks 7:01.
Have I found a reason for moral philosophy?
How do recognize evidence and apply it to the problems RD raises? No wonder it put me off.

Night All.

Breaking away from the religious conversation to say -
Woo hoo - got my tickets to see Jethro Tull in Sep and Allison Kraus (with Jerry Douglas) in July. Saw Loreena McKennitt Tue - fabulous, fabulous music. So many interesting instruments, and they can really rock out on the electric guitar and violin too. And all the while she's telling stories about how the Celts wound up in China and the Russian steppes and all over the place.

Loved the Billy Collins poem(s). The Lanyard nearly choked me up (at work, again).

And can someone tell me what Melinda Doolittle was wearing last night - it said "Death Cheat" right across her bosom? At least that's what it looked like to me.

Now back to religion, or whatever.

Over (not out!).

Mostly, we plan to see Allison Krauss this summer too. Looking very much forward to it.

Dreamer - this

Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day; give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish.

-- Source unknown

is funny! Thank you.

Well, apparently even scientists have evidence rebutting the concept of high rates of heterosexual sexual transmission of AIDS.

http://www.infectiousdiseasenews.com/200508/frameset.asp?article=infection.asp

Without condoms, the AIDS tranmission rate is actually rather low for heterosexual intercourse per coital act. It just adds up. Condoms may or may not cut it, but in some areas there are up to 40% of married AIDS-infected people who have not infected their spouses even after years despite practicing unprotected sex.

This epidemiologist actually points to a more reasonable vehicle of transmission for the high rates of HIV infection in African women-- unhygenic medical, dental, or other practices involving the shedding of blood or cutting the body of the carrier (tattos, vaccinations, or circumcision, anybody?)

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=18294

Criminy - did I miss a rockin' day with the boodle or what? Or would it be *on* the boodle? *in* the boodle?

Dreamer - those quotes are a wonderful coda to the discussion today. I found the Karen Armstrong and Angela Thirkill quotes to
be closest to some of the struggles I have had with religion generally and my beliefs specifically.

I had a friend in my early twenties who said she had been born again and repeatedly tried to explain to me, a cradle Catholic, what it was I was missing. I never had the guts to tell her that the day she told me that she prayed to Jesus about what color to paint her room was the day I couldn't take her seriously. I suspect I sound politically incorrect and am condemning born again Christians, which I do not mean to do.

Error - your 5:15 about a guy who hasn't had any in 70 years speaks to some of my worries about Catholic clergy...and made me laugh. Not that I mean that I have worries about celibacy necessarily making priests ineffective (or worse) I just wonder how they can remain relevant....but that's another whole can o' worms.

I had lots of other penetrating and articulate thoughts on many boodle comments but just can't remember them now- except to say that I liked everything CP had to say. Now, how's that for penetrating and articulate?

And thanks to Boko and Error (and others) for their arguments in favor of logic and reason.

Did anyone see Ann Coulter's column on Falwell? Amazing.

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=20753

I gotta go to bed but I will leave you with this analogy:

"Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life."

Heck, even ear-piercing by HIV carriers with wounds would transmit AIDS pretty efficiently. The guy's right.

The science has been biased in favor of an unilateral conclusion everybody must be sinning like crazy in Africa. After all, everybody knows... oh, Duh!

This is another case of unconscious racism. Give the poor Africans condoms, for they cannot stop their sinning.

Wait - thoughts can't be articulate, can they?

Mostly-really appreciate your appropriate usage. over.

Those Slate articles are great. Thanks, bill e.

The first one discusses whether the president's continued the illegal wiretapping without the DOJ stamp of approval was illegal or legal, or if the president thought it was legal to continue.

But I think if he thought it was legal to continue without the DOJ approval, why did Gonzales and Card make their late-night hospital visit to get Ashcroft's approval? Why bother if they thought they didn't need it?

I like the way the article closes:

"The president is either above the law or he isn't. As it turns out, almost everyone who espoused the latter view has fled DoJ... As Ben Wittes puts it today, 'the bad guys won.'

"But that's not quite right. The bad guys were winning for a while because they picked the teams, set the rules, sidelined the referees, and turned off all the lights in the stadium. Congress has some work to do..."

Wheezy, oh my - shouldn't have read that right before bed. There's a throbbing in my temple and my teeth hurt from clenching....

TBG: No worries :). Sorry for being a bit [quite] snarky on the reply. It has been mentioned before that blogging is not the ideal forum for religious discussion, as inflection and body language are lost, and I tend to over-react anyway.

'Mudge: thanks for asking. Yes, we are still making sweet geometric, ummm, yeah, we're still together. No plans for the future yet; taking it slow for now.

bill everything, did you just make that up? For some reason, I loved it, even though I'm not sure I fully understand what it means. It's one of those things that's oh so terribly dreadful and yet, at the same time, so terribly funny. ("Warm for the rest of his [incredibly shortened] life"! Ha!)

Kim, I know what you mean about asking Jesus what color to paint one's room. I imagine Jesus might say, Take the money you were going to spend on your fancy schmancy colorful paint, and give it to the poor.

Nice to hear it, Tangent. Go and sine no more.

warm for the rest of his life! ouch, coughed up a hairball over that.

Dreamer, sorry, not that inventive and, I'm afraid, it is just an example of dark humor as you surmised.

I figured anything that got away from the boodle "difficulties" this evening would be welcomed.

If you do venture to read Ann Coulter's homage to Falwell, try this: read it like it's satire--pretend you're reading The Onion. That's the only way to stomach it.

Out!

'Mudge, I hear that Tangent is getting a little "cosecant" on the side. What are we going to do about this?

Science reports that the Savannah River Ecology Laboratory (SREL)is closing.

Here's a key paragraph from the story:

Founded by legendary ecologist Eugene Odum, SREL plays the role of "watchdog" of DOE's Savannah River cleanup . . . Research at the site showed DOE how to save billions in cleanup costs by demonstrating that a contaminated lake habitat could survive without being dredged . . . . Other studies have looked at how ash from coal plants, which DOE uses to produce power on the site, affects their surroundings.

I doubly mourn its passing as a former University of Georgia student.

Wilbrod - You will (I think & hope) be amused by this -- I had just (a few moments ago) finished composing and was proofreading a long-winded comment taking issue with one of your earlier remarks when the electricity in my house cut off for about two seconds, just as I was about to click on the "submit" button for the comment. That caused my computer to re-boot, and gave me enough time to realize that I didn't actually need to bother tossing the remark out there.

I'll share this much of it: "Wilbrod, I'm a little taken aback. Until now, I don't think that I've EVER fundamentally disagreed with you about anything. Some occasional tactical differences, but nothing that was rock-bottom." (It probably won't amaze you that I was thinking of one of your comments earlier re: Pope / Catholicism / religion.)

I took advantage of the re-boot time to realize that you and I view (and, more relevantly, prioritize) many things differently, but probably don't actually fundamentally disgree about very much. It was a good thing that my remark was dispersed as random electron vapor.

The Lord does, indeed, work in mysterious ways!

How do you know it's time to call it a night? When you look frantically for half an hour for a thumb drive which has the only version of a Brazilian paged document that is due to be e-mailed tomorrow, then give up only to find it under the cat. No more puter time for Frostcat2. Funny how you always find things in the last place you look.
Out.

Frosty - I'm right behind you. G'nite!

Wheezy - I read the Coulter piece. Wow! Jeepers! Wholly crap! (yeah, that's exactly how I meant to spell it)

Well, I tried back-boodling to catch up, but was distracted by the best thing the RCs ever came up with:

>>you will have to trust my patent leather shoes/plaid skirt of k-12

Religio-Legal news: Alberta Court of Appeal rules province must allow for photoless driver's licences for Hutterites (similar to Amish). I prefer Slatter J.'s dissent.

http://www.albertacourts.ab.ca/jdb/2003-/ca/civil/2007/2007abca0160.pdf

Frosti this is SonofCarl I read you 5 by 5 on your voice procedure out.

SoC - I might quibble over the whole best thing RC's have ever come up with...
but I don't deny that I think that the green plaid/khaki look that my children have been forced to deal with for their K-8 years may have a few benefits. But that's just me...I'm willing to think other methods work!

Bob S., for me the question is, did God cut off the electricity, or, at some level, were *you* responsible for that? Could it be that you didn't *really* want to post that comment, and the Universe created the conditions needed to ensure that the comment wasn't posted? (And I realize that these views might be repugnant *both* to scientists and to the more religiously inclined.)

I'm reminded of a scene in the recent film "Conversations With God." Neale Donald Walsh -- the subject of the film and the author of the books by the same name -- was at one time in his life homeless. He applied for a job at a radio station, giving the number at a public telephone box as his contact number. After several days of loitering around the box waiting for the call, he was horrified when a noisy road construction crew showed up in the vicinity, destroying all hope of an audible phone conversation. He started waving his arms and shouting for them to stop, but they didn't appear to notice. Then, for a brief moment, the noise stopped for some unrelated reason, and Walsh heard the phone ringing. He picked up the call, received instructions to come into the station for an interview, and replaced the receiver -- just in time for the racket to start up again.

On occasions like that, I always think, was that a coincidence, or not? And if not, who -- or what -- made that happen, exactly? A big guy in the sky with a long white beard? Or our own thoughts and intentions? Or, are these all the same thing? And do our existing religions help us interpret and understand these experiences -- and most of us have had them, even Gene Weingarten, with his coins-arranged-in-the-shape-of-a-cross experience -- or does religion as we currently know it just get in the way of our quest for the truth?

I've had a busy day and a busy evening, but I will say today's been a spectacular day for the Boodle.

bc

Tangent, nice to see you and glad to hear that you and the lovely Cosine are still together. Hope you have more time to hang out here.

Ivansmom, your tale about Garrison Keillor is quite disheartening. What a glassbowl!

Dreamer, good quotes. I liked the last one - maybe it's my Quaker roots, or Trancendental Meditation training. (I'm still kind of stunned that David Lynch is into TM.)

>Bob S., for me the question is, did God cut off the electricity, or, at some level, were *you* responsible for that?

Or maybe it's the ex-squirrel next to a transformer somewhere. :-)

Sorry if I came on a bit strong. Too often in life we do get handed just one side of the issue, and make strong emotional judgments accordingly.

I'm myself guilty of that, and have had my eyes opened repeatedly as a result.

So it took one to know one in this case.

I actually would have agreed with Boko about the condoms and AIDS in Africa, because I've read the same hype from AIDS activitists blaming the church for impeding their efforts. AIDS is very politicized and the efforts strenous and sincere.

I however realized I never bothered to check my assumptions about the facts of heterosexual AIDS transmission in Africa.

The idea that medical and other workers could be spreading AIDS makes sense to me. I know that medical workers in America are unhappily at high risk for getting AIDS despite all precautions they take, including gloves, etc, and they often must retire from medicine if they are confirmed to be HIV + because of the risk of transmitting it to patients.

AIDS-centered safety for medical workers are unlikely to be anywhere as rigid in Africa as they would be here, and let's not forget barbers, even sharing toothbrushes with blood on them, etc.

Really, almost any person in a job or in a situation that could spread hepatitis C (which is spread by contact with blood only), could also spread AIDS.

Hepatitis C is less readily spread by sex, much less so than AIDS.

So if AIDS is being spread by sex and blood-borne transmissions are ruled out, Hepatitis C rates should not be significantly higher in Africa than elsewhere.

Well, it happens that hepatitis C rates are indeed higher in Africa than elsewhere. Check out the CDC figures.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/diseases/hepatitis/c/fact.htm

So payingfor AIDS prevention in Africa by focusing on adequate medical supplies, hygenie, and better epidemiological research, would also yield twofer for reducing prevalance of hepatitis.

Sounds good to me. Dual hepatitis C-HIV infections raise five-fold the risk of mother-child infection with either disease, so hepatitis C is indeed a major health threat to pregnant women.

In fact, we could even argue that AIDS activists with their blind focus on condoms and sexual transmissions have done Africans a GREAT disservice by diverting AIDS funds away from distributing medical supplies and teaching hygenic procedures for preventing hepatitis C and other blood-borne infections, not just for AIDS.

Ok, Dreamer...I've thought about this for, lo...these many years...I'm still not sure that I've come to any conclusion, but I can vouch for the way I felt at the time.

I was working the 3-11 shift in an ICU. One of my patients was a lovely 70-something woman with end stage heart failure. There was nothing to be done, it was a waiting game. I was padding around at about 10:30pm doing the end of shift type things when she stirred and said, "Margaret, what are you doing?" I said something along the lines of my name is so-and-so and I was her nurse. Then I said, "Who is Margaret, is she someone I can call?" Then, holding my hand, she kind of snorted and said, " Oh no, isn't that silly, she was my godmother...I haven't thought of her for years." I can't really describe how I felt at that moment. Suffice it to say, it made me feel as though we're not just some gobs of chance matter. I'm not really doing justice to the moment (not a moment that I was looking for, believe me) but there you have it.
Well, with all of my doubts, I found that oddly comforting.

I think, all in all, religion as we know it gets in the way...but we can use the traditions and teachings to find our way...

whoa Nellie...it's time to go to bed!

pretty heavy-weight discussion. don't have much to add. going back to the kit, though, i wish to note the irony that the party of the religious right is the party that seems to be saying that the ends justify the means where torture is concerned. how very utilitarian of them.

concerning the "ends justify the means" issue, some russian religious philosophers thought that the bodily resurrection of all people had to occur at the end of history otherwise god would be guilty of using humanity as a mere means for some end, whether history or the kingdom of god or whatever.
can't vouch for the logic, but it's an interesting thought.

In the Church of What's Happenin' Now we don't have any theology, or any non-theology, and there ain't no doctrines. We welcome Falwells* and Hitchens both.** Some of you (MANY of you) might try us some time. But, please--leave your righteousness*** at home, wontcha?

*Actually, we do prefer live bodies, but that difficulty can be overcome if financial arrangements are made in advance. Especially in the case of Mr. Moral Majority himself.

**Of course, money, or equivalent goods and services, determines the relative warmth of the welcome. Ain't no freeloaders here.

***This includes any preconceptions you may have on just about any topic (just bring money).

Joel, back to your question: Why do bullet fragments from 3 bullets make a conspiracy more likely? There were 3 shell casings in the sixth floor sniper's perch. Most eye and earwitnesses reported 3 shots. The problem is that at least one of the 3 shots MISSED the limousine. There were sections of Elm Street's curb that showed evidence of an impact from a wayward bullet; and a bystander named James Teague on the far side of Dealey Plaza was struck in the cheek by fragments of the ricochet of the missed shot. This missed shot is why the "magic bullet" theory was so important: two shots had to account for all of the President's and Gov. Connolly's wounds. If the fragments recovered from the limo were from 3 different bullets then a shot is unaccounted for--thus a second shooter. I personally think all the shots came from the sixth floor of the TSDB, but I hope this answers your original question.

Oswald p