First again? Two kits in a row?

When you're hot you're hot.

Works with Paris too Joel.

'Mudge;

90 days, Jerry, 90 days!!!

And everyone always forgets in the "ticking bomb" scenario... Like the "bad guy" won't hold out long enough to make credible whatever intentionally bad information is provided, thereby ensuring the other bomb goes boom. Sheesh.

One of the more amazing aspects of that Grand Guignol scene in Ashcroft's intensive care room is simply the measure of how reprehensible Gonzalez is that he makes a buffoon like Ashcroft into a hero and defender of American liberty. I mean, you got to go some way to accomplish that feat. But Gonzo pulled it off flawlessly. And then (of course, OF FREAKING COURSE) lied about it ("We were only there to offer condolences").

Roughly the same Google directions also work to Paris.

Sort of in that vein, this week's Newsweek (I think the paper version's Periscope section) has a photo of a helicopter ambulance in a setting with skyscrapers, illustrating a brief US story. Trouble is, the main skyscraper in the background looks a lot like Tokyo's City Hall, in Shinjuku. Is there a doppelganger skyscraper somewhere in the US?

If the Republican candidates are a bit nasty, wait until the Democrats show how tough they'll be on terrorists.

That is funny, Joel.

I'm glad I didn't watch the debate. What on earth happened to the notion that America should be a beacon of morality? I am not naive enough to think that the US has always been a force for good, but at least there was a belief that America *should* stand for well..."truth, justice and the American way." Sometimes I think the forces of evil have won, when respectable, educated, supposedly God-fearing people can stand up in front of this country and talk that kind of cr@p.

There seems to have been a lot more torturing than there have been ticking bomb scenarios.

Dear Sen Brownback, the way we're perceived in the world does have a correlation with how many people are inspired to attack us.

One more time, the guys in NJ preparing to attack Ft. Dix DID NOT follow us here!

How come whenever civil liberties are being endangered Torqueberto seems to be in the room?

EF "One more time, the guys in NJ preparing to attack Ft. Dix DID NOT follow us here!"
And thanks to John Ascroft, the official handpuppet of the NRA, the FBI couldn't use the national database on firearm purchases to cross-check it against the terrorist watchlist. Brilliant.

Re: Gonzales, Bush, Card, GOP candidates, et al--I'm starting to get shivers. These people have no moral compass and no shame. Maybe it's time to retire and move to Canada.

Good morning. Great Kit. Exactly right, Mudge -- it is astounding that Torqueberto gives Ashcroft a chance to be heroic. Of course, it is also pretty sad that we can consider Ashcroft heroic for simply doing his job, refusing to authorize something he has already declared illegal.

These "torture" guys -- shouldn't it matter to them that the only one to specifically decry it is the one who experienced it? I like the way some of them say, no torture but do whatever you can think of; next time let's ask them to define the "torture" they say we shouldn't do as opposed to the methods they approve. Of course, the Adminstration won't do that either. I like the way Ron Paul (who is he again?) picked up on that, saying that in newspeak torture is an enhanced interrogation technique.

Loomis, thanks for the gratuitous insult in the last Boodle. Generally speaking, use of the phrase "if you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all" under these circumstances is not an abandonment of critical thinking, but shorthand for "I disagreed with the guy (in whatever strong term may apply) and am glad he's dead."

It bothers me that the only two candidates that came out against 'enhanced interrogation techniques' were John McCain and Ron Paul, both considered nutjobs in some quarters. If it is considered heresy to think that torture is always wrong, color me a duck.

yello, I'm guessing most people would agree that if you've got the guy and you really really KNOW he's the guy then they would be all for dual-use cigar cutters on extremities for a good start and to he11 with the law and the consequence.

The problem is when you use it as a policy and apply to every poor sucker named Mohammed, and then dump him in Macedonia 6 months later because you were wrong. That's hurts us more than it helps us.

Error, I think I'm going to have to go throw up from the images you just created in my mind. There is NO WAY that's ever justified.

TBG, I think the Kornheiser piece on the Nats tickets is about to be replayed.

Sorry Wheezy, but I'd throw up at images from any bomb site. If it makes you feel any better that's a scene from "Darkman", I didn't invent it. :-)

Despite my moral disgust over torture and my knowledge that I am a complete pain wussy, I also fall back on the knowledge that torture just doesn't work. Despite Tenent's assertions to the contrary, whatever intel we did get from torture could have been gotten by other means more reliably.

It also bothers me just a little bit that they we have been casting the net a little wide when it comes to people with tans darker than Dubya.

Oh my!

Zapper alert on the 12:18, as if I really needed to say anything. *SIGH*

ebtnut, no need to move, just replace the current crop with politicians so dull that all you can see is the issues.

Up here we had a very colourful prime minister who was in office far too long (not a good thing no matter what party you vote for). He was replaced in a minority government by a fellow usually referred to as being colourless and dull, a policy wonk, who despite what some believe is not the all powered evil. His people have tried to make him be more tv friendly, but he is unchanged in his fundamental unflashiness. The other party just elected an equally unflashy leader, so colourless that even party members think they should get out some crayons.

The only politico with some colour is leaving federal politics to go into provincial politics. There is one other major party leader, but he only thinks he is flashy. Deep inside he is just a little nebbish, and he tries too hard.

In the next election, barring silly nonCanadian attitudes about who and what a particular party may be, I think we might actually have a real election on issues that affect our huge and disparate nation and not on a party leaders' personal ease in front of a tv camera. I eagerly await debate on economic policy, international policy, regionalism, healthcare, and what can be done to make the lives of ordinary joes like me better across the board.

Maybe its naive to hope this, but sometimes its all you have.

Shouldn't somebody start a clock that counts down to the moment when GWB and Co. declare martial law, municipal curfews, the suspension of The Constitution, and the indefinite "postponement" of the next election?

Just wonderin'...

Also, SCC that Sexxxxxxxxy Queen post: "ATTENTION".

And some still wonder why people outside the DC/Euphemedia Aristocracy think they're all insane.

Candidates stumbling past a torture survivor to declare their intent to eagerly continue our status as a War Crimnal Nation. And how is that described?

Well, they're "not entirely ... nice" and even the passing thought that they might more appropriately be on their way to The Hague is dismissed with "Whatever."

Chilling.

--

I second dr's view of the upcoming election, from the other side of the house. I think the last minority government, led by the policy wonk, has been good for the country. I strongly disapprove of the wonk's history of extreme rightist positions and micro-management of departments that should properly be led by ministers and administered by bureaucrats, but his forced move to the centre and his communication of overall government policy from that centre has been effective in getting the general populace to think more about issues and less about personalities.

I just wish more Canadians spoke French fluently, because my party's leader is not so colourless at all, when he can communicate in his own language. He looks like a back-pack toting professor, which is just fine with me.

Hey, back off, byoolin! Correcting punctuation and grammar on porn sites is my turf! Uh, you folks stay here and wait for Joel's chat while I go check out that Sexxxy Queen site to make sure there are no other egregious insults to our beloved English language on it. I'll be back in, oh, three or fours hours.

Fly-hair boy is on the front page, advertizing his 13:00 chat on 'scopes.

I'm still searching for a meaningful question...

Ron Paul is for the requirement that the dollar be backed with gold. He is a nut!

how much does howard dean pay you.

What, no women in the script? Who gets to play Mrs. Ashcroft? Isn't there at nurse at that hospital? And what about Mrs. Gonzales?--Jennifer Connolly perhaps? And that "lump in the bed" (hey, I didn't coin the expression) Laura Bush? Harriet Miers--was she in D.C. then, since Fredo was still Bush's counsel at the time? Karen Hughes? Mary Matalin?

If Hollywood's gonna touch it, we gotta have more than one scene. Who plays Darth? Who plays Junior? What about Mueller? Who should play Khalid Sheikh Mohammed?

Legitimizing torture can have consequences that they may not have thought about. I would be then "okay" for other countries to use "enhanced interrogation techniques" against our military personnel.

In the past 40 years or so, if we count only the leaders of your party who got elected (your party, in ta so very PQ way, eat its dead after all) you had:
Machiavelli: speaking French and English very well.
Machiavelli's Henchman: speaking neither languages.
Mr. Dithers: speaking English and torturing French (as a puppet on a show they made him say "Je suis pour que les lesbiens et lesbiennes se marissent" and it was credible)
Mr. College Perfessor: speaking French well, as any French citizen like himself should, but seriously mangling English.

The wheel has made a complete turn, so I suspect the next one will be as bilingual as Machiavelli was.

This idea that you should "trust the government" when it comes to torture, comes from the same crowd that says government is the problem, not the solution? I guess if your own corrupt delusional power hungry thugs are in government then you should fell better, huh? Haven't we learned from the Nazis? If you let them do it to others, they will do it to you!!!

Funny, I don't see us on the home page...

And how interesting that the 12:18 appeared just when JA was distracted preparing for the Discussion.

*shrug*

I've already posted my question for the chat, but I've got a few spares if anybody wants one:

"When will NASA get around to launching an orbital horoscope?"

"Why has NASA built so many dish antenna telescopes like the one at Arequibo? Who needs pitchers of dishes and antennas in other galaxies?"

"When ScienceTim and his colleagues go to Hawaii to climb up Mount Kilawhoppeamaolaua'aii'eo'ua and look through that telescope they have up there, are they required to wear those adults diapers astronauts have to wear?"

and

"What is David Duchovney really like?"

I have about 10 minutes to think up a few more. Just let me know if you're stuck for a good one and I'll be glad to help out.

I feel a RoveStorm brewing. Better run over to the bunker in time for the astronomy chat.

My question: If the Sun is so hot, why don't we land on it at night instead?

And what's worse..is that it was GW Bush who called Ashcroft's wife in order get permission to send Card and Gonzales into the hospital. To get him to sign off on something Bush knew was illegal! Testify under oath and be Impeached.

dr, I hope you don't mind if I repost you from the last kit:

"Its not about not saying not nice things, its a caution on saying rude things. If you can't say anything about the man without being rude, then don't say anything at all. You can have strong opinions and not be rude even about Mr. Falwell."

Hear! Hear! And it would also apply if you substituted "students" for "the man."

Ah, the good ol' days (Boodlemining from Joel's link):

Tim:

Torture sends a message: Be nice to Americans! Or else they will bring you democracy.

Posted by: superfrenchie | September 19, 2006 12:35 PM

Yoki, I am really am not familiar with the new guy. The colourless comment arose from a BC tv commentator. I knew there was more than that but it would have really wrecked my analogy. He is certainly unknown there in the west though. How well does he speak english? I'm going to be really radical when I say that I hope, rather than trying to get his point across in a language he is not familiar with, he uses translators and text running onscreen for really important stuff. Its easy to read honesty and passion in the sound of man's voice.

Maybe that is what is missing in politicians across the continent - a passion for what concerns the people rather than a passion for the power of the job.

Mudge - please don't check the proofreading at Sexxxxxxy Queen. It turns out Her Majesty and Prince Philip enjoy "photography, know what I mean? Nudge, nudge. Holiday snaps... candid, candid, know what I mean?" It's all profoundly disturbing.

I'm not one to have my photo taken, what with the waiting game of finding out who will take a Sharpie and give me a beard, thick glasses, etc. and then post it on the net with my home address. But JA's photo on the front page...what year was that taken?

Hey, shouldn't we all be over here now?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2007/05/15/DI2007051501348.html

Joel is running a little late. Weingarten usually has the first ten questions posted by now. Pick up the pace!

Actually, I'm over HERE now...

*waving*

Loomis, I am shocked for such an avowed feminist to assume all nurses are women, or that the doctors might not be women, not sure about down here but I am pretty sure that the majority of med school grads here are women.

I'm a little perturbed that the person taking dictation for the Federal Document Clearing House transcript didn't know that "Newspeak" is a single word and a proper noun.

(And yes, you know we're deep in the Augean stables when the capital-L Libertarian is the one to make the obvious point.)

Is Froomkin coining a new term in his lede today: the political-scandal tune cootie?

Former Deputy Attorney General James Comey's gripping testimony yesterday about his high-speed race to then-Attorney General John Ashcroft's hospital bedside -- and the ensuing standoff with senior White House aides over the administration's warrantless wiretapping program -- may turn out to be the political-scandal equivalent of the tune nobody can get out of their heads.

With friends like the ones in our Administration, who needs enemies?

"I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this [9/11] happen.'"

Let's see. I DID cause 9/11. No doubt about it. No argument there. But I never said I assumed ALL nurses are women, nor doctors. Just trying to help put the distaff side of the Screen ACTORS Guild.

While no one seemed to notice his comment, Ron Paul was trying to get the candidates to aknowledge that Torture and "enhanced interrogation techniques" are the same thing. No one advocated torture, but all of them were for the enhanced interrogation techniques, whatever that is. Also sounds like new speak to me.

...back-pack toting professor...

Tee Hee. Funny, Yoki, and rather familiar. Just add "bike with basket."

Hey Linda,

Tell us again how the distaff side handles being a stay-at-home non-mom who manages to remain an Andrea Dworkin-style feminist misandrist while living off her husband.

Thank you John McCain for maintaining the integrity of the leadership of the U.S.A. Powell warned, too. Detention of people is detention of people. How did we ever get to the level of acceptance of anything other than human treatment of inmates of any nation. We are the U.S.A. We are above torture and can still do a fine job with intellegence gathering, provided we actually use it! The best way to honor our troops engaged on the ground right now is pray for them and treat our enemies... what was that golden rule?..."as we want to be treated". Don't think we should pray? Look it up. It's in the Bible. God's smart, we're stupid. McCain might have a clue, best hope since Powell. Thanks McCain!!

I'm eating my sandwich and letting the scientist do all the work.

"I'm eating my sandwich and letting the scientist do all the work."

To quote Michael Scott from The Office, "that's what SHE said!"

I think if we're going to give up our claim to moral superiority, we ought to stop beating around the bush about it. Let's replace to torch in Lady Liberty's hand with a whiffle-ball-bat wrapped in razor wire, instead of kissing babies our politicians can start shaking them, and we can declare a national puppy-kicking day. That just sounds much cleaner than "puppy alternative-petting-method day."

Really, I used to think that the system was broken, that the president who took us into an unjustified war--and the vast majority of Senators who didn't bother to fact-check and just went along with him--were re-elected. More and more I think that the people of this country are the ones who are broken.

While you're chewing, JA...

*pointing at the 12:18, then at the Zapper*

:-)

Mouseketeer roll-call on Boodlers that got questions in.

Somehow my question from Fo, MA got changed to Fo, Mass. What's up with that?

What amazes me is these guys have nerve to order torture yet none have balls to call it torture.

McCain, Powell are Godly American leaders

Honestly, why do the world looks upon the US and think we're the moral compass and the beacon of hope? And then be SHOCKED that we don't live up the "moral burben" they placed upon us (as if they have the moral authority to do so.)

Don't tell me about morality or right and wrong. These are abstract concepts for those who can't do much with their lives, except commenting on things that others have done.

Puuuuleeese....

Sorry, Dave.

Powell gave up his "Godly leader" role the day he decided to shill for the Bush Administration before the U.N. and the world.

I still don't see us on the home page...

*scratching head*

Interesting. I don't see us on the home page either. Our passionate friends must follow topics around the Net.

I hope to find the chat, if only to guess at the part where Joel eats his sandwich.

Here you go Ivansmom...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2007/05/15/DI2007051501348.html

(I gave Joel his closing line.)

Honestly in the most respectful way possible, I do not believe the world looks to the US as a moral compass. I would submit that the majority of the burden of the moral compass comes from within, not outside the US.

honestly, you are assuming the rest of the world 'looks upon the US and think we're the moral compass and the beacon of hope'. I highly suspect that much of the world would not agree with this statement.

The fact remains that for decades you did help hold the balance of power in the world, and are still a world leader economically. A price comes with that.

"Honestly", are you commenting? And, yes we can be that beacon again, starting in each of our hearts, not to preach.. The capacity to be a Godly Nation is engraved by our Founding Fathers in our Constitution. What's your position "TBG"? Who can fill the role of Godly leader?

JC writes:
What amazes me is these guys have nerve to order torture yet none have balls to call it torture.

Reminds of the recent "60 Minutes" interview during which Scott Pelley asked George Tenet not about his new book, but about interrogation techniques:

GEORGE TENET: Let me say that again to you: we don't torture people.

SCOTT PELLEY: OK. Come on, George.

GEORGE TENET: So we don't torture people.

SCOTT PELLEY: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed?

GEORGE TENET: We don't torture people.

SCOTT PELLEY: Waterboarding?

GEORGE TENET: We do not --

SCOTT PELLEY: It's torture.

GEORGE TENET: I don't talk about techniques, and we don't torture people.

SCOTT PELLEY: It's --

GEORGE TENET: Well, now listen to me. No. Listen to me.

GEORGE TENET: I know that this program has saved lives. I know we've disrupted plots.

SCOTT PELLEY: But what you're essentially saying is some people need to be tortured.

GEORGE TENET: No, I did not say that. I did not say that.

SCOTT PELLEY: You're telling me that the enhanced interrogation --

GEORGE TENET: I did not say that. I did not say that. We do not torture. Listen to me.

SCOTT PELLEY: Well, you could look --

GEORGE TENET: You're making an assumption. You --

SCOTT PELLEY: You call it in the book "enhanced interrogation techniques."

GEORGE TENET: Well, that's what we call it.

SCOTT PELLEY: That's a euphemism.

GEORGE TENET: Well, I'm not having a semantic debate with you. I'm telling you what I believe.

SCOTT PELLEY: Anybody ever die in the interrogation program?

GEORGE TENET: No.

SCOTT PELLEY: You're sure of that.

GEORGE TENET: Yeah. In this program you and I are talking about, no.

SCOTT PELLEY: Have you ever seen any of these interrogations done?

GEORGE TENET: No.

SCOTT PELLEY: Didn't you feel like it was your responsibility to know what you were signing off on?

GEORGE TENET: I understood. I'm not a voyeur. I understand what I was signing off on.

Well, how about Egypt? Or some of those European detention centers in countries that Dana Priest alluded to but failed to name? Pakistan--do they torture there?

TBG I thought that was you, I feel the same way.

I got a couple of questions in the chat, Joel even referred to me as "stranger" when I lobbed a hastily half baked comment/question at him.

Presumably "stranger" in a Valentine Michael Smith sense.

bc

Who can fill the role of Godly leader?

George Burns. Oh wait...

Let the record show that I have not, and will not, respond to Dave. But you all know what I'm thinking.

From the end of the chat: Dr. Garner: "The balance in funding between human exploration and space science is set by the political process, meaning Congress, the White House responding to voters and taxpayers."

Me: The White House responds to voters and taxpayers?

If you live in the mid-Atlantic region, you've got about 10 minutes to roll up your car windows. We're looking at major T-storms pretty soon. Gonna be one dandy rush hour. I hop it holds off long enough for me to make my early escape.

Keep hitting those "Save" buttons, folks.

Yup, taking another look at my desktop weather button radar, they've issue a major storm trapazoid for this region.

Thanks for the link, TBG. The chat was very interesting. Now it is back to "invective and dyspepsia". Aren't those twins? Like the Doublemint girls?

Loomis, that tune is Piaf singing Milord.

Torture = Enhanced Interrogation Techniques

The new nomenclature.

I don't know why, but a friend just e-mailed this old, old article from The Onion that I just loved. Loomis, it kinda might fit in with your feminist sensibilities today, too. (It was either post this or jump into the fray, and I'm tryin' sooo hard to be good.)

The Onion:

Blues Singer's Woman Permitted To Tell Her Side

September 16, 1998 | Issue 34•07

CLARKSDALE, MS-Ida Mae Dobbs, longtime woman of Willie "Skipbone" Jackson, called a press conference Tuesday to respond to charges levied against her by the legendary Delta blues singer.

"Despite what Mr. Jackson would have you believe, I am not an evil-hearted woman who will not let him be," Dobbs told reporters. "I repeat: I am not an evil-hearted woman who will not let him be. To the contrary, my lovin' is so sweet, it tastes just like the apple off the tree."

Dobbs, accused of causing Jackson pain and breaking his heart by calling out another man's name, categorically denied treating him in a low-down manner.

"He says he sends for his baby, but I don't come around," Dobbs, a brownskin woman, said. "He says he sends for his baby, but I don't come around. Well, the truth is, I do come, but he is out messing with every gal in town."

During the press conference, Dobbs also disputed an Aug. 27 statement made by Jackson, who compared her to a dresser because someone is always going through her drawers.

"My drawers have not been gone through by any man but Willie 'Skipbone' Jackson," Dobbs said. "Neither Slim McGee nor Melvin Brown has ever been in my drawers. Nor has Sonny 'Spoonthumb' Perkins, nor any of those other no-good jokers down by the railroad tracks. My policy has always been to keep my drawers closed to everyone but Mr. Jackson, as I am his woman and would never treat him so unkind."

In addition to denying Jackson's drawer-opening allegations, Dobbs disputed charges of unrestricted sweet-potato-pie distribution, insisting that her pie is available only to Jackson.

"I do not give out my sweet potato pie arbitrarily, as I am not the sort of no-good doney who engages in such objectionable behavior," Dobbs told reporters. "Only one man can taste my sweet potato pie, and I believe I have made it perfectly clear who that man is." Dobbs noted that the same policy applies to her biscuits, which may be buttered only by Jackson.

While most of the accusations levied against Dobbs relate to her running around town with other men, she does face one far more serious charge, attempted homicide. On May 5, 1998, Jackson was rushed to the hospital and narrowly escaped death after ingesting nearly five ounces of gasoline. Jackson claimed that Dobbs tried to murder him, serving him a glass of the toxic fuel when he requested water. Dobbs dismissed the episode as "an accident."

Dobbs, a short-dress, big-legged woman from Coahoma County, said it is not she but Jackson who should be forced to defend himself. According to Dobbs, Jackson frequently has devilment on his mind, staying up until all hours of the night rolling dice and drinking smokestack lightning.

"Six nights out of seven, he goes off and gets his swerve on while I sit at home by myself. Then he comes knocking on my door at 4 a.m., expecting me to rock him until his back no longer has any bone," Dobbs said. "Is that any way for a man to treat his woman? I don't want to, but if he keeps doing me wrong like this, I am going to take my lovin'
and give it to another man."

Added Dobbs: "Skipbone Jackson is going to be the death of me."

Dobbs said that until she receives an apology from Jackson and a full retraction of all accusations, he will not be given any grinding.

"Mr. Jackson says that I stay out all night and that I'm not talking right. He says he has rambling on his mind as a result of my treating him so unkind. He says I want every downtown man I meet and says they shouldn't even let me on the street," Dobbs said. "Well, I refuse to allow my name to be dragged through the mud like this any longer. Unless my man puts an end to these unfair attacks on my character, I will neither rock nor roll him to the break of dawn. I am through with his low-down ways."

Thanks for the heads-up Mudge, I was wondering when those forecasted T-storms were going to come in.

Still nice here, I've got the kid doing the lawn. He'll probably finish just in time.

I was gonna ask a question on the chat and just before I could I got pulled away from it with work...will this damn work thing ever stop interfering with my boodling and chatting???

Any way the question was about 'many many trillion': is that the old trillion or the new trillion, that is:
old trillion=one million million million; 10^18
new trillion=one million million; 10^12

Harrumph, now I'll never know

Not on the home page. On the discussion page. Who could have imagined that people interested in telescopes were interested (!) in politics, too?

The race is on. I bet I beat the storm as I'm out the door in 2 minutes, and it takes about 40 to make it to safety.

JOHN ASHCROFT!!! TOTALLT NUDE!!!
LIVE RANTS!!!

Rudy didn't say anything in response to Ron Paul, he just started crying like a baby, and rehashing old, tired goto lines from 911 until the fox applause lights went on full boar. This whole talk about torture is useless, the CIA has been doing this since it's inception.

I can't believe nobody has pointed out that the directions from New York to London take you to France first, then over the Calais-to-Dover ferry! If I was going to swin that distance, I think I'd aim for Land's End.

Once again, Ron Paul delivers a crushing truth to the crowd regarding torture. Too bad this time around its to a Fox News crowd that is not too friendly to the constitution.

Enhanced Interrogation Techniques truly is "Newspeak" for plain old torture. Not that many knew too much about George Orwell's book 1984 it seems.

LOL, Boko. Very nice.

LTL, what was your Milord/Piaf in reference to?

I'm loving "full boar." Better than the original.

I never heard of the old trillion, but then I was taught New Math. I have also heard of milliards and billiards, but I thought those terms referred to aquatic water fowl and what causes Trouble in River City, respectively.

Thank goodness Wikipedia can always come to the rescue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_large_numbers

First the GOP panders to fundamentalists and homophobes. Now it panders to cowards. Not one candidate had the courage to say "Terrorists can kill us, but they can never destroy us. Only we can do that, when we adopt the techniques and morals of our enemy."

What a low opinion of us these men must hold.

The tune you can't get out of your head.

The epitome of irony...

"Wolfowitz has apparently scrapped a trip to Slovenia, where he was scheduled to attend another development event tomorrow. Originally, he was to deliver an award to graduate students who penned essays exploring the troubles of corruption in the developing world, bank officials said."

Yeah, speaking of moral burdens and stuff, that's one guy who lost his compass long ago.

Joel was anonymously referenced in the Wikipedia article on large imaginary numbers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indefinite_and_fictitious_large_numbers

I have rectified the error and given Joel the proper credit he deserves.

The question, a bea c, is whether or not he ever had one in the first place.

Yello, you should have also asked them to add "brazillion" from that one joke.

Slyness,
I used to think we were born with one, but now that I'm a parent, I see how much goes into creating one.

Just after I sent S'Nuke to the pool IE crashed and it took me hours to fix the (insert rude words here) thing.

I read the fine kit and the fine comments until I ran into my old pal sexxyqueen. After assailing you with my wit I then continued reading the fine comments.

My only thought is I'd like to see a mudwrestling tag match with Ashcroft/Dworkin vs Flynt/Paglia.

Oh and, dogging a fled horse is the opposite of flogging a dead one.

The brazillion joke is in the text of the article:

"A joke focuses on a world leader being told that a multi-national military force had suffered several Brazilian (i.e., "brazillion") casualties. The leader is very disconcerted over such a huge loss of life"

It's a shame Dubya isn't mentioned by name. Didn't this story get broken by Woodward in one of his books?

The main thing that the hospital scene shows is the difference between those who respect the law and the Constitution and those that don't. You can hate Ashcroft for his policies, hate him for his social conservatism, but you have to admit that he has a fundamental respect for the law, and so was worthy of being the Attorney General.

Bush, Cheney, Libby, Rove, Card, Wolfowitz, Gonzales, Meiers, Sampson, Goodling, (the list goes on and on), have no such respect for law, the Constitution, or moral principles. They are not worthy of holding the office of dog catcher. Impeachment proceedings against Gonzales should begin now.

Wow, just read the transcript. Very informative and entertaining. But after reading it I am left with one burning question.

Just what kind of sandwich was it?

RD, email Joel and ask!

RD, my money's on Vegemite.

Sorry for any tune cooties I inflicted there.

bc

bc,

No you're not. That was intentional cootie infection.

I think "Men at Work" had some way-cool saxophone licks.

Although why anyone would lick a saxophone is beyond me.

Let the record show that I'm Dave and I don't know who that other Dave is. The nerve. But also let the record show that I'm willing to relinquish this "boodle" to the other Dave. He seems to be a better fit. It's all a little too coy and inbred here for my liking.

Please do not refer to us as coy.

RD, does that mean it is OK to call us inbred? :-)

I heard about Mr. Comey's testimony yesterday and it sounded to me like something Chris Buckley wrote.

bc

Washed in the Blue Glow writes:
Torture = Enhanced Interrogation Techniques

It's not the only euphemism. How would you like to be renditioned extraordinarily?
Or irregularly?

Oooh, oooohhh...Wiki has a map...in red, blue, and black--the color of nasty bruises and broken blood vessels!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition

I can't say the first word that I think of when I read the boodle is "coy." But that's just me.

Not my fault my grandparents were 2nd cousins!

Oops, gotta run, but I thought I'd point out to RD that you don't need to lick the whole sax, just the reed as needed.

Waitaminute, somehow RD tricked me into discussing Oral Sax in the Boodle.

bc

This Dave controversy is beginning to remind me of the Get Smart where there is a doppelganger Smart and the Chief has to decide who is the real Maxwell Smart.

http://www.timelife.com/catalog/product.jsp?productId=9613

Get the entire catalog for the ridiculously low price of $199.95.

We ain't coy. We're red blooded North American carp.

dmd - that was the joke. Such as it is.

Boko999 - Oh my. That puns gonna leave a scar.

My head's spinning. We went from Invective and Dyspepsia to coy carp, or perhaps the Carping Coy.

See? Now my brain hurts again.

>discussing Oral Sax in the Boodle

*SNORT*!!!

I grew up in Tucson, spent time along the border. When the Minuteman thing started, I tended to respect what they were saying about the disruptions to people living along the border. I was down there a few years ago. You could feel the tension. It seemed like the Minuteman thing had some points to make, in terms of not letting people just break the law and come into this country in a disruptive way.

Now, of course, Tancredo is a spokesman. The Minuteman movement sends out endless emails, mostly quite provocative. It sees menace in any Hispanic political activity. It can't come to grips with the difficulty of returning millions of people to Mexico. It's pro-gun, just echoing the NRA. It tosses out, gratutitously, attacks on religious groups who are sympathetic to immigrants. But, whatever their positions, the original focus on ranchers in small Arizona towns is hard to find.

This is a good example of why the GOP probably has to lose for a while. It's all red meat and no substance. Whether it is terrorism, or gun control, or religious values, or immigration, everything is just too emotional with these guys. When a guy like Romney tries to fit in with this, it's a little ludicrous. Maybe he should carry around some rubber testicles to crush, although maybe that's not allowed. He could do it during his speeches.

The semi-rational McCain, in an hour on Meet the Press, looked decent. He might win, if the war goes away.

They should talk about our economic position. They should address how multilateralism will have to work in a world of wild instability. But they don't, and no one watches these things anyway.

It was good RD, just think of me as the half-wit relative!

As a Democrat, I am voting for Giuliani in the primary just to piss off the Republicans.

I've been in a Seminar about managerial techniques all day. I need some carping coy.

I think that might have been a typo. I think he meant "goy." Which except for SciTim and me, is about right. He should take a little chicken soup it couldn't hurt.

Mudge, do you need a comma in that last sentence?

Dave? Dave's not here.

Grey green sky above with that dread feeling as the pressure drops --- stay safe.

I am glad we are not North American Crap. And, surely not blue-blooded, either.

Enjoyed the online chat. Sigh. Science is so cool and wondrous, why we can't all be as happy as kings....

CP - I thought of you when I read this article.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/15/AR2007051502208.html

dbG-Rudi and his first wife are your grandparents?

Sorry that pun hurt RD. I thought I'd warmed everybody up with 'dogging a fled horse.'
I was obviously chong.

You all assume that the ticking time bomb scenario isn't realistic. But what's not known to the public is the number of times that the ticking time bomb scenario HAS been successfully dealt with through enhanced interrogation techniques. We only hear about the attacks that aren't prevented, or the occasional situation in which the CIA chooses to leak the information to the public.

RD, I thought of me, too. And DR and Mostlylurking....knit and pitch, is a bit nicer than knit and *itch but the ancient phase is knit and itch, until we spun softer yarns.

Baseball is grand. Shame, really, that the game is slipping as our iconic pasttime.

Surely not coy? Nor demure, nor bashful. Never flirtatious. Perhaps modest, but seldom reserved.

Well put, George Sears. "All red meat and no substance" indeed.

. . . as my koi coyly carp. . .

Speaking of guitars, congratulations on your 50th, or is it 51st, Martooni.

"Invective and Dyspepsia" would be a cool boodle handle. Sort of the Scylla and Charybdis of the boodle.

Please fill us in Bruno.
I'm all agag.

Ok. Ok.

I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.

Bruno, you want me to believe they've been arguing this in court for years when they could just give 100 examples?

Is it a realistic scenario, absolutely. Are there ones we don't hear about, for sure. Is it equal to the number of people we've tortured - I kind of doubt it.

It seems to me the White House is more likely to leak information than the CIA.

Frosti -- the English spring we had here meant that the peonies are (were?) overblown, blowsy, bosomy, blossomy, pendulous, luscious, glorious,....I fear that today's storm will lay them low.

And the scent, oh the scent! Some odors resist bottling and this is one.

I have a few mad cap garden schemes in mind, including about 80 two-inch high Nicotiana sanderae growing. The scented tobacco is in honor of Jamestown, instead of growing the filthy smoking kind. I hope to be intoxicated and prostrate before them by late July. By the time the moonflowers kick in, my yard will be an opulent fragrance den.

CP, these storms are going to pound my iris bed to pemmican.

Mudge,

I'm not "goy" either, although my more observant cousins say I'm "goy-ish" and that's left over from being "boy-ish" for refusing to have my hair and nails done when one of them got married.

Meant to say earlier about the torture: NOTHING has disappointed me more about us. I am sick about it. I have a beloved family member over there who is sickened about it, too. This harms his ability to work and fight over there. The reputation of us ALL is on the line, but expecially people in-country.

In the first Gulf War, Iraqis stumbled toward our lines KNOWING they would be treated fairly. Now, we have descended into the hell that is war without rules and norms.

IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT THE OTHERS DO! What matters is that we should not torture. Period. McCain is right. Are we in such a rarified air these days that only those who have BEEN tortured understand that torture is wrong?

Raysmom -- Pummel to pemmican! Thanks for the new swear phrase! Nature giveth. Nature pummeleth. Arise, dear flowers, arise.

Baltimore Oriole sighting in the neighbor's back yard: first in three years. Relieved. Happy, too.

Physical torture is absolutely an unambiguously wrong.

But what of trickery? This is where the gray area occurs. For example, it is a matter of historical record that the Brits used to blindfold suspected IRA terrorists and then load them into a helicopter. After 10 minutes of flight the Brits would tell the suspects that unless the the terrorists "talked" they would be pushed from the helicopter. Which the Brits would then proceed to do.

The catch is that the helicopter was three feet from the ground.

Now whether or not this is "torture" is debatable. But I think it a moot point. I would never believe a "confession" made under such duress.

Elvis had left the building... I'm just looking at the fact that here you have McCain, standing up for Human Rights and nobody else.. There's all this well, it's just modified, "yank-'em-some-info.-outta-'em" rheto-wreck with the new terminology for legalized torture, coy, and as some of the bloggers here point out- it's rather sickening. I'm grateful McCain has stood up. He may be more likely to be concerned for our welfare as citizens if he's man enough to consider his enemies, after having been incarcerated by some!

Oh, I liked the Stitch and Pitch article. Baseball is a wonderful game for working to. Hockey is not, curling is not. Maybe golf? Yeah I can stitch while watching golf.

That stuff we were talking about arrived, CP and mostly. It wonderful. I have to find someone to sit with me to get it to a workable form (those big hanks are not fun) and then we will be underway.

RD, Slyness, it was the usual: Turkey with lettuce and tomato and mustard and a slice of cheddar on whole wheat. Why such a boring sandwich day after day? Because in a rush I panic and don't know what to order and that's all that I could think of. Complete sandwich-creativity meltdown. Disaster. And here's the deal: I ate it while trying to conduct the chat and have no memory of the actual whatchacall -- mastication I guess is the word but that might not make it through the filter. The only evidence I have that I ate is that the hunger disappeared and there's a wrapper in the wastebasket. Anyway I thought the astro dude was really good and fast and clear.

RD, I think I read a while back (Harpers? New Yorker?) that many of those British interrogators did then think, or have since come to the view that, those actions were in fact torture -- if they are not ambiguous I'm not sure there much ambiguity to be found.

Thank you Joel. The world needed to know.

I understand the phenomenon about ordering. When my wife and I were on vacation we learned that our hotel had a complimentary open bar. We were so flustered that we both ordered "rum and Cokes."

Such a lost opportunity.

I'm concerned that this administrations advocacy of torture will taint what the Canadian Forces are trying to achieve in Afganistan.
No civilized nation will be able to countenance an alliance or even a police agreement with the US. Say goodbye to NORAD, NATO, SEATO and all the other TOs.

Yoki - I think such "tricks" are close enough to torture that I would never choose to believe them.

CP-Madcap garden schemes, and blousy bosomy peonies. What a picture on a day so chilly I have the fireplace taking the chill out. My woodland understory garden is doing well, too well. As I extend its bounds I am tempted to plant ferns as densely as they appear in the older section. That would be folly as I'd be toiling away at dividing them all the sooner.

Hummers have arrived, that is hummingbirds. Belligerent little dive bombers. Hold 5 paperclips in your hand and there you have the weight of the average male. Add two or three more and you have a female.

Isolation is hard on most people. Perhaps loud music and light and other sensory stimulations are reasonable. Is sleep deprivation useful? I don't know but as a mom of a colicky-baby, wow, almost turned me into mush. I know we have data on this, but some of this is hidden in security cubicle farms.

But much else is inhumane. Wrong. Evil.

The kicker is, as others mention, the data dumped under torture is not useful or true.

The ends do not justify the means. Most of us are willing to live with risk, ambigiuity, and even another event. Do not torture. Period.

Everybody back to school to study "jus in bello" -- just conduct in war. Soldiers study this. The policy wonks, suits, and statesiders really need to take a refresher.

I feel good to be alive.

Especially down by the sea.

So there, bc.

:-)

Anyway, the point is, to automatically assume that "Alternative Interrogation Techniques" means physical torture is not valid. That such techniques are held in secrecy suggests that they involve a degree of deception.

For example, the well known "Bad Cop Good Cop" technique is based on deception. But is such a trick torture?

>Turkey with lettuce and tomato and mustard and a slice of cheddar on whole wheat.

Joel. nothing wrong with a good turkey sandwich. I admire your stand on mustard. I am a mustard-no-mayo kinda guy and it's tough out there sometimes.

EF - I admire your integrity in this matter. I also advocate copious mustard as a substitute for Mayo. In fact, I never have seen the appeal of Mayo.

Which, perhaps, is why I have never been that much of a fan of Paula Dean.

I think it is analagous to mock executions which is considered torture.

If some bad guy needs to be tortured (which we don't accept[right?]) someone should step up and over the line to do it. He/she/IT could be pardoned later. That may be a little hypocritical but it would leave the standard intact and reduce the incidence of such incidents.

hey all, what's with the sandwinches?

Hey, just pead necessity. You'd have to prove it but that wouldn't be too hard if you could get a jury of cowards/sheep.

Boko, ditto your 5:25. I echo your concerns.

Rush making fun of McCain on one of his comercials- McCain left the reservation, so he says, well, no, Republicans have left the conservation- that's conservatives. Shawn Hyyyanity is on the air talking with someone a min. ago, guest saying we aughta double gitmo. Not. We aughta be embarrased and take notes from McCain- a true conservative.

Dave, back in the mists of time, Joel wrote a kit about sandwiches. Or was it a column? He has a long history of choosing the same sandwich.

Don't get him starrted on coffee.

Apparently the owner of this blog eats sandwiches.

Mayo, ketchup, relish = Thousand Island Dressing
Mayo, mustard, relish = Tartar Sauce
Mayo, ketchup, mustard, relish = McNasty's Special Sauce.
Although all the Canadians I know prefer Miracle Whip.

Boko999 - As a former professional in the field I must point out that the "Secret Sauce" also contained ground olives.

But remember, you didn't hear it from me.

TUNE COOTIE (Commercial sort)
Two all-beef patties
special sauce
lettuce cheese
pickles onions
on a sesame
seed bun:

Special Sauce!

Did you really RD? Me too. But I was already an adult with small kids in school. It was the only place where I could go home at 3:30, get all my weekends and holidays off as well as summer vacations.

And then I came to my current job. Vastly different work, vastly different responsibilities, but some days, I feel like an ad for the before picture for a stress medication. In a some ways, McD's was a great job.

RD - ground olives? Green or black?

One of my favorite lunches when I was a (little) kid was a cream-cheese-and-olive sandwich. My mom used to make it: homemade mayo (she had none other), cream cheese, sliced green olives. Great spread.

In order: bread, butter, mustard, lettuce, meat, cheese, mayo, butter, bread. Just enough butter to waterproof the bread, and lots of grainy mustard up against the lettuce, a great combination. Chelsea Ale mustard, yum.

Oops, I meant Ipswich Ale mustard. Substitute one FA club for another.

Indeed, as I have proudly declared before, I worked at our local McDonald's all during High School. (This fact greatly impresses my daughter.) During my tenure I learned many secrets, including the fact that McD's Secret Sauce (a.k.a. "Special Sauce") was basically Thousand Island Dressing enhanced with ground black olives.

Of course, they may have changed the recipe since then.

I am also proud of the fact that I was the Swing Manager during the summer of 1980. I earned an entire thousand dollars by working 3 to 11 during the summer after graduation.

And, for what it's worth, I would gladly refund that money, plus interest, to have that summer back again.

I excerpted this from Parameters, the journal of the US Army War College a few boodles back, but it bears repeating.

"History offers no modern examples of the strategic effectiveness of harsh interrogation techniques, but it is replete with examples of the negative strategic effects such techniques have on the counterinsurgency force." (from-Losing the Moral Compass: Torture and Guerre Revolutionnaire in the Algerian War by Lou Dimarco)

Note, no strategic effectiveness of "harsh interrogation techniques" much less torture or the euphemistic "enhanced interrogation techniques."

What the administration has allowed the military to do, as opposed to the CIA which has always played by different rules, was outlined in an Autumn, 05 piece called: "Six Floors" of Detainee Operations in the Post-9/11 World by Thomas E. Ayres

He wrote:
"...While the current debate generally recognizes a category that can be called "unlawful combatants" or by some similar term, it also assumes that the Conventions provide little to no guidance on how these unlawful combatants should be treated while detained. Perhaps in anticipation and recognition of the paucity of international guidance, the international community concurred to a baseline standard against torture in 1994 by means of the Convention Against Torture. This treaty applies not only to repressive regimes' treatment of their own subjects, but also to detention of all lawful and unlawful combatants either in internal or international armed conflicts.

It was into the black hole of international agreement that Secretary Rumsfeld boldly strode when he authorized interrogation measures less extreme than those that would violate the Convention Against Torture, and yet more stringent than those by which POWs may be questioned under Geneva III. Criticism immediately ensued, while others jumped to the Administration's defense. The tales of such treatment came to be called "stress and duress tactics" by the press, although the Secretary of Defense's explicit guidance on detention and interrogation methods remained classified. Some relevant documents have now been declassified, however. It is now known that the Administration's so-called "stress and duress tactics" authorized several controversial interrogation techniques, but were limited to the following:

Category I techniques . . .

(1) Yelling at the detainee (not directly in his ear or to the level that it would cause physical pain or hearing problems).
(2) Techniques of deception: (a) Multiple interrogator techniques. (b) Interrogator identity. The interviewer may identify himself as a citizen of a foreign nation or as an interrogator from a country with a reputation for harsh treatment of detainees.

Category II techniques . . .

(1) The use of stress positions (like standing) for a maximum of four hours.
(2) The use of falsified documents or reports.
(3) Use of the isolation facility for up to 30 days . . . .
(4) Interrogating the detainee in an environment other than the standard interrogation booth.
(5) Deprivation of light and auditory stimuli.
(6) The detainee may have a hood placed over his head . . . .
(7) The use of 20-hour interrogations.
(8) Removal of all comfort items (including religious items).
(9) Switching the detainee from hot rations to MREs.
(10) Removal of clothing.
(11) Forced grooming (shaving of facial hair, etc.).
(12) Using detainees' individual phobias . . . to induce stress.62

These techniques were approved by the Secretary of Defense for use on a limited, case-by-case basis and only with the approval of appropriate officials."

I used to get cream-cheese-and-olive sandwiches (on rye) at the GW Deli for lunch years ago.

That's when I didn't go to the lunch counter at Peoples Drug Store near 21st and E Sts, NW.

I remember telling my sister that I liked to eat at the Peoples' counter and she asked, "What is that? Some kind of communist place?"

And TID is in turn made from other common ingredients. Except this one I found is recursive -- it would be hard to make the first batch, I suspect.

4 tbsp. salad dressing (heaping)
2 tbsp. chili sauce
2 tbsp. French dressing
2 tbsp. Thousand Island dressing
2 boiled eggs, chopped
1/2 c. grated cheese

Question: what's the difference between Russian dressing and Thousand Island dressing?

I worked for two summers in a fruit shed pitting apricots OR stuffing red pimento strips into green olives by hand. We never new quite what the day would bring.

The Lindsay Olive Company eventually merged with Oberti Olives.

I used to come home with gigantic olives, which my sibs would place on their fingers like little gloves.

Ah, youth.

I thought the secret sauce was inbred koi.

Frosti, thanks. I am not sure what to say, but so many soldiers rue the day we moved into the "moral compass" optional zone.

TBG that would be political affiliations.

Seriously, Russian Dressing was a favorite of my wife's grandfather, Leroy. It was basically Thousand Island Dressing with Horseradish and other spices added to make it more "zippy."

Leroy passed away a few years ago, but whenever I hear the term "Russian Dressing" I recall him ordering it at the VFW. (This is a good thing.)

Joel: replace the mustard with some hummus for that turkey sandwich; especially red-pepper hummus. Adds a little more flavor. My favorite sandwich right now: pesto, sharp cheddar cheese, and either rosemary ham or smoked turkey, on regular wheat bread. This sandwich should be grilled or toasted for maximum enjoyment.

"So, there was this queer-lookin' guy drivin' by without a seatbelt on! How many other seatbelt violations might be out there, waitin' to happen? Well, I had to find out, right? A little enhanced interrogation sure seemed called for. I thought maybe I could get intel about some other stuff at the same time. Just looking at him, I was sure this dude cast aspersions on the President's competence; and yore either with us or agin us, right? Weren't my fault the ol' dude had a weak heart. We sure did get a lot of credit for cleanin' out that batch of terrrists, though."

Frosti - I agree enthusiastically with that "Parameters" quote. Seems to me people under extreme duress might figure out how to do this thing called "lying."

Tangent -- are you done? 66 papers arrive in my box tomorrow. I am tempted to pretend to read them and mark them according to petunia signs or lilac instructions....

On a oool damp day here, I just discovered something to make me smile, my Wisteria vine has begun to bloom, just a few open at the moment but soon it should be covered.

Thanks for th econtext Frosti.

My apologies, a bea c; I had forgotten you were around. (But it's good to have you back.)

Slyness, ordinarily you'd be correct about the comma, except that the phrase "a little chicken soup it couldn't hurt" is a unitary phrase for most Jews, since no Jew would ever say just the first half. "A little chicken soup" is necessarily followed by "it couldn't hurt" in all cases, so no intervening punctuation is necessary. However, if a goyim had said it, then yes, put in the comma.

College Parkian: I am done. Turned the last paper in yesterday. Thankfully, my finals were spread out, so I could cram for each one individually. :)
Sorry about the papers (66!!). I had to look over a handful (I am a TA), so I can feel some of your pain. My favorite one was from a student who "forgot" to cite/footnote any of her sources. Oops.

This post got lost:

I never would have guessed ground black olives RD. My recipe fooled my niece when she was little. She wouldn't even look at a hamburger unless it had 'spesha sauce.'
I have a Big Mac attack every month or so.

add:
I'm going to try Tangent's sandwich (sans hummus.)

Thank you "frostbitten". That was rather informative and can be worked into the sandwinch jargon.
This is good stuff. Over.

*Canuckian Interjection*
GO SENS GO

Actually, I don't know why I'm-a bloggin'

This article speaks for itself:

..."only McCain took a strong stand against torture."

others?

I know of none, rye, wheat, dill, or otherwise

I'm glad to see the strong morals held by those who oppose torture under any conditions. It makes me proud to be an American. However, I wonder whether such a moral code is somewhat assymetric. It would allow a known murderer to kill thousands or millions, just to avoid causing any fear and discomfort to the murderer. Such an ethic requires standing by idly while your daughter is raped, because it would be wrong to use force against the rapist without having a fair trial first. It's fine to respect the rights of the terrorist. But don't innocent victims deserve to have someone stand up for their rights? Even if it means causing some fear and discomfort to the terrorist?

And to those who claim that "torture" doesn't work, you're wrong. Telling lies requires higher brain functions. Those brain functions shut down under stress, especially with the aid of certain pharmaceuticals.

I am against torturing a potential terrorist to avoid a potential attack. But in the ticking time bomb scenario where thousands of innocent lives are at stake, I would have no qualms about putting a wet towel over a murderer's head.

Bruno, if I thought torture would work I would agree. But I don't think it works.

Look, I've been interrogated. The desire to say anything just to escape the room is very strong. I can't imagine what it must be like to have the threat of physical duress added to the mix.

Bruno (you may be rhetorical here) but only if it was a wet towel...

The rape analogy does not work at all.

Bruno those are valid points, in the case of a daughter, if it were happening in front of you, actions to prevent her harm would be justified. Now if you were to harm someone you heard might be planning on harming your daughter, that is a different scenario.

When the situation is multiplied by thousands it gets harder to find the line where you cross over from "defense" to torture. I think it is important to remember that torturing suspects is not the only viable method of obtaining intelligence, and even its realiability is questions.

>>Such an ethic requires standing by idly while your daughter is raped, because it would be wrong to use force against the rapist without having a fair trial first.

That's just silly.

The real question is why we can't use it in Congressional hearings.

Ok. Everything seems to be covered here. I can lurk while watching the hockey game. Perfidious Buffalo just scored in the first minute. This is gonna be barnburner. (Hey, I have to be right sometime.)

Pardon this regional query.

Hey, Virginians, do we have another wave of weather coming?

That last batch was not so bad for us. (Frosti, the peonies are back up)

Did PA and NJ (EF?) get the bad stuff?

"Such an ethic requires standing by idly while your daughter is raped, because it would be wrong to use force against the rapist without having a fair trial first."

What tripe. Defense of noncombatants, is not only allowed it is required-even if lethal force is required in that defense. Do not equate a stand against torture as weakness, or an unwillingness to perpetrate great violence. But, do not presume that voluntarily taking up a profession that at times requires one to kill human beings requires a soldier to concomitantly relinquish all moral discrimination. If it did, we might as well let "them" win. We have nothing left worth preserving.

SCC: "but" should be "also"

Happy Birthday Studs Terkel.

Well said Frosti. We have more to defend than just a flag.

Now I need to go encourage some offspring to bathe. Which they clearly equate with Cruel and Unusual Punishment.

CP-still no red shoots of peony here, but I was premature in my assessment of the as paltry. They were just late. Great sprays are perfuming the yard. Nothing quite so lovely as cutting a great lilac bouquet to the whirr of hummingbird wings. I feel like Radar, I hear them before anyone else and always before I see them.

SCC: oh my, I know I typed

my assessment of the lilacs as paltry.

Frosti, I am awed by your use of "what tripe." That was excellent.

Bruno, assymetric (sic) is available as a boodle handle, should Bruno prove too tiring.

Frosti, love what you wrote.

Lilacs are out here as well, as are so many other flowering trees, redbuds, crab apple, fruit and ornamentals - just lovely.

Dave, its insidious isn't it? Its like the motto, 'Clouds are hard'. So is stopping. Come back tommorrow. We'll all be here too.

Bruno, you have not the slightest clue how much restraint I'm using on you. Just take my word for it.

First, yes, that moral code is asymmetric. Congratulations. That's the first thing you've come close to getting correct. Of course, you then procede to draw wildly false conclusions from it. "Standing idly by while your daughter is raped" is, in terms of argumentation and logic, just about all you seem to be capable of, which is a shame.

No one respects the "rights of terrorists." You have missed the point by approximately a hundred yards, and it is doubtful anyone can successfully explain to you why.

You pretend to have some sort of expertise with the question of torture, but I suspect what little you know you got by reading "Soldier of Fortune" magazine or some similar piece of trash. You're just a tough guy wannabe, more or less pretty similar to those other tough guy wannabes who utterly screwed up the war in the first place: I refer to those military experts such as Dick Cheney, George Bush, Paul Bremer, Wolfowitz, Feith, Perle, etc., all of whom strangely never actually seem to have served in the military.

You seem to think higher brain functions "shut down" under stress; I assume this is because yours clearly have, and so you make the mistake of assuming other people's do, too. You have the further problem of pretending to claim something that the vast majority of (real) experts agree with: that torture "works." Most of them claim it generally doesn't. Given the choice of believing them or you, I pick them.

You ask, "don't innocent victims deserve to have someone stand up for their rights?" So your answer is yes, innocent victims deserve to have some one stand up for them ... and the general use of torture is a dandy way to do it. You are just throwing catchphrases around, but you have no idea what you're talking about.

Your last paragraph is a total internal contradiction. I see no reason anyone should take it -- or you -- seriously.

LTL-CA, thanks for the redundant Thousand Island Dressing scenario.

Thanks frostbitten. You said it better than I could or would have.

I hate those red herrings. Really really hate them. When does a red herring turn into a straw man?

On another topic, I've always sort of thought that mayonnaise was a female thing. Studies show IIRC that women, generally speaking, crave more fatty foods (probably for evolutionary-biological reasons) than do men, generally speaking. I myself love a good freshly-made mayonnaise (Miracle Whip is reserved for two childhood/comfort dishes that cannot under any circumstances be considered real food- but which I eat about once every ten years nonetheless). A genuine California roll made with real crab and good avocado would not be the same without a slick of mayo. A piece of grilled salmon is not complete, in my book, without a sauce of 'piquant mayonnaise a la Francaise' and who wouldn't sit on the terrace with friends and wine and a platter of bread and crudites with aioli?

Frosti, I do love that red asparagus look of peonies arising. Miss the lilacs, but do not begrudge them that moment of grace.

I stopped counting the jackmani clematis blooms about 250. I like the dark purple with chartruese stamens.

A neighbor who shall remain nameless said, "Such a shame about all that purple against red brick. Rip it out and order a pale lavender or white clematis."

She is so tasteful and geometric: little begonias all in a row
forsythia trimmed into a ball
tasteful juniper plantings
pink azaleas ("The white ones look frightful as they fade."

I grow the most shocking zinnia seed, pairing them with Green Envy zinnia hybrid just to hear her say, "Oh Miz CeePee, the colors are a bit vulgar aren't they."

Lurid! Give me more.

SCC: "the vast majority of (real) experts agree with" should be "disagree with"

CP - I have a brilliant purple Clementis in full bloom right now. The color is so deep and rich that it draws me in like a lover's eyes.

Or so I've heard.

I'm no gardener, CP, but whoee, you are a woman I like. My neighbours all have four or five wee bedding plants lined up in regimental order. My perfect garden is an English herbaceous border (profusion! all mixed-up!) (I am a spotted or herbaceous backson, don't you know).

If not an English garden (most unsuitable for my semi-arid environment), then a Japanese rock garden.

CP I have a strong suspicion I would love your gardens, dark purple clematis against a red brick wall - stunning.

I had peonies at my old house, your descripion of them has left me longing for the smell of the peonies. So many wonderful scented plants I left behind that I don't think will work in my new location.

That's OK Mr. Curmudgeon. I read it in.

>Did PA and NJ (EF?) get the bad stuff?

Yeah, we got some serious T-storm action. Prefect timing though. I got the kid to clean up some brush and mow the lawn before it hit, and I got my car back from inspection (only expired last November. ahem) just as the drops started to fall.

When I was at the Tulip Festival in Ottawa I was surrounded by 300,000 tulips and blooming apple trees but I didn't see one bee.
Out here in the country I've only seen one bumble bee, no honey bees.
What's it like elsewhere?

Boko I believe all the bumblebees have congregated in my Wisteria vine, sorry to hog all the bees.

How were the Tulips? I think I shall head over to the lilac dell this weekend - 800 varieties.

I don't imagine there are many lined-up-garden folks here in the boodle. Somehow we all seem like dark-purple-against-red-brick folks.

DMD -- Peonies (the lack of) would be the reason for