Spoke with Cassandra this morning! YES! Our very own Cassandra S.

She wants everyone to know that she misses the Achenblog and the boodle very much and she still says a prayer for us every morning (you thought so, didn't you?).

She is going to find out about her computer repairs today and get back to me. If she can't get it fixed, we'll figure something out. She'll be back online in no time, I predict.

[Originally posted by: TBG | September 17, 2007 10:33 AM]

All of these McMansions are just another way of saying "my equipment is bigger than your equipment" -- what a waste of land, energy and whatever else goes into that. Okay, so you boost the economy by employing landscape guys to mow your back forty and cleaning people to clean your monstrosity of a house -- ah, but I'm sure you find a way not to pay them much (you know, in Leona Helmsley speak: "the little people" -- they don't need as much money because they can't afford such a huge house as this and so they don't have to pay the kinds of bills we have to pay).

And then there's OJ -- still ever the jerk. I'm sure he still believes that rules don't apply to him. He's not the only one who feels that way, alas.

Hmmm. I think I woke up cranky this morning. Fits right into the boodle, dontcha think?

You can tax the carbon if you want; I won't complain. But when I see those big houses--the ones I see most often when I take my walks on the Hillsboro Mile, beachfront mansions where the front of the house looks out on the Intracoastal Waterway, so they can keep an eye on the yacht(s)--when I see that I never fail to repeat my mantra: "Not Enough Income Tax."

http://hillsboromile.com/

Regarding Global Warming being an unprecedented threat. Well, you know, I guess some people do think that "Black Death" thing was just a lot of whining.

And I must admit I am taking a bit of testosterone-fueled umbrage at Sally Fields' (any relation to Debris?) comments. Come on, if mothers ruled the world there would be no wars? Get serious. Have you checked out the mommy blog? I often wake up at night soaked in sweat over the possibility that one of them might achieve a nuclear capability. Besides, I assert there are a few fathers out there who care about their children too.

That carbon tax for those obscene mansions is a good idea, but you gotta put some teeth into it. I'm thinking seldom used organs. You know, a mortgage of 4.7 million and your spleen.

And regarding OJ. Gosh. I hope they find the actual robbers real, real soon before that poor man is framed yet again.

I confess to having an unfair advantage on that quiz, as I had recently read an article that covered all kinds of trivia about oceans, seas and rivers.
If I had played fair I probably would have scored 6 or 7.

Looks like a nice place to spend a beautiful fall weekend, Joel.

And that inspirational story made me more fully appreciate the depths of true altruism.

I just put some compact fluorescents in the downstairs bathroom ceiling fixture--they give the room an icy glow, which I've decided to like. Perfectly cool.

Repost from the last boodle and now it's more on-topic than before:

7/10 on the world water quiz and I was 7/8 going into the final two.

I'm debating whether or not to blog about the Emmys. There were two jokes about Hayden Panettiere, the cheerleader from *Heroes*, turning eighteen. It was a little creepy even by my standards, which are notoriously low.

Joel, I think you failed to see the permit that said they weren't building a McMansion, the were building a Day's Inn. Think positive: maybe it'll have a Starbucks in it (that's a law isn't it?).

While in Henlopen and Lewes, didja visit the DiscoverSea Museum at Fenwick Island, which has all the skinny about the shipwreck of the De Braak? And dija walk a "coin beach" looking for washed-up booty? (No, not THAT kind of booty. It wasn't a Joan Collins joke.)

TBG;

Excellent news on Cassandra, thanks!!

:-)

Joel, Not to worry 'bout that McMonster house 'round the corner from you. The owner will go bust next year, and it will quickly become subdivided into a combination halfway / crack / ill-repute house. The dumpster will never get hauled away; it'll be home to three immigrant families, and their pet rats, the size of a small poodle.

The giant house issue and carbon footprints illustrate one of the thorniest bits of actually doing something about global warming: the politics of taxes.

If the bulk of a carbon tax large enough to have an impact is applied to gas at the pumps, a great swath of lower middle class people are going to be effectively denied the mobility and freedom that is part of our car culture. Given the law of supply and demand, there's probably not much that can be done about that if we are serious about climate change, but I can't help but think about it as an erosion of average peoples' lifestyle.

I doubt a significant new progressive tax on housing would fly politically and it wouldn't be effective enough on its own anyway.

re: water cooler story. Upping the ante: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4309012.stm

hum... JA says flourescent. Is it to be his amusing self or a bona fide typo? Or else I missed the memo, again and flourescent is the new nucular.

I'm surrounded by houses that have 4 bathrooms per resident. Clearly, those people do not do their own cleaning.

Joel's McMansion neighbor (and when does a house become big enough to lose the "Mc") seems to have 8 full bathrooms and 2 half-baths and who knows how many bidets.

The last time we talked about houses this big, someone mentioned meeting the needs of large families. This house is big enough for a family of twenty. It could even qualify as a large bed and breakfast. Somehow I doubt more than four will ever live in it. My experience is that the largest families seem to have the smallest houses.

That's quite the water cooler story. I'm going to have to think about that one a while.

No McMansions in my neighborhood, but not for lack of trying. Several houses have been renovated into that league. The most recent was the 2000 sq ft ranch that had the roof taken off and a second story added. It looks very nice, but the owner (who is the contractor who did the work) has it on the market for $175,000 more than any other house in the neighborhood. I hope they get it, but I doubt they will. There are plenty of other houses just as nice for much less.

re. watercooler stories
Those are cases of the nanny state wearing a French maid outfit.

I can't seem to Google the whole story but in Howeird County a few years back, a family won $10 mill in the lottery and put it all into a house. Their first choice of McMansion subdivisions wouldn't let them in because the house they wanted was too big.

They ended up in a different locale with a house four times the size of their neighbors, who were no slouches themselves. A year after it was built, their one daughter went off to college, so they put it on the market and took a bath on it.

Out of curiosity I went by the house and noticed that it was on a flag lot. There was an undeveloped lot between it and the road. There is a saying about fools and money.

I think the "Mc" appears in the name when any of these conditions exist...

1. The house is squished into a lot that's not appropriate for a house that size.

2. There are several other similar houses squished next to each other on the street.

3. The design of the house incorporates more than one architectural style... clashing turrets and mansard roof, for example.

Excellent summation TBG, I would add - at least four different window styles and the obligatory monstor crystal chandelier in the entrance hall.

Of course I like simplier styles so my comments may not be the most fair. Saw this article on the weekend about a house restoration/move. There is a photo gallery of the home now that it is completed - they went to great effort to properly restore this home and also found a magnificent setting for it.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070914.re-niagara-0914/REStory/RealEstate/home

My sis in law bought one of those huge houses. Now she complains that the party is always at her place. Ha!

In Melbourne, Fla., one of the sights is the warehouse-sized house that a cruise line exec built so the kid(s) would be next door to their school. It passed on to a major league baseball player, and so on. At the time, its size and cost were remarkable. By now, it's still big but evidently already obsolescent.

Someone in the next county south is building a huge fake-Tuscan oceanfront house that's painted roughly the same color as an orange-yellow Mustangs. It's near the ever-so-tasteful Windsor enclave, where the houses are squished together so residents will interact with the neighbors and there'll be plenty of space for golf and polo. I somehow doubt that Windsor would allow orange-yellow Mustangs inside the gate.

I went to high school in Delaware. Having moved from a particularly beautiful corner of Puerto Rico, I couldn't get interested in the state's beaches.

What I find funniest about McMansions is the complete lack of scale or proportion. The architects have a devil of a time making look like anything except the Biltmore Estate. They are an endless expanse of fake gables and bump-outs.

We need to get the Zillow listing for the place near Joel. That site has a scary amount of information. I clicked on my house and you could see the picnic bench my neighbors have just past my property line.

Here's the house I was talking about earlier. Zillow has it listed at $3.5 million but I think it cost more than that to build. It seems a doctor is running his practice out of it now. Use the view arrows to get an all around look at it.

http://www.zillow.com/HomeDetails.htm?zprop=37036979

There are some enormous skylights in the hallways that connect the wings. I remember a newspaper article that the estimate to clean all the windows ran into the five figures.

Of course, I don't know what's funnier... the ultra-large houses they're building on tiny lots these days, or the fact that the two-floor brick rambler I grew up in was part of a conglomeration of houses known collectively as Little Run Estates.

I read about a bill on the drawing board that would no longer allow a mortgage deduction for homes more than 3000 SF. I think it might make a difference?

Hey, football fans, I was at the Broncos / Raiders game yesterday. What a finish in overtime. I just wish the Broncos could win a game without the nail biting. These games are fun but exhausting! I almost felt sorry for the Raiders at 0 and 14.

Greenwithenvy....where did you see the pileated woodpecker? Where abouts do you live? I usually see woodpeckers at the feeder in the dead of winter when the supply of bugs are low, I guess.

No one designing ordinary commercial buildings in the US seems to have been taught the Palladio-derived notion of harmonious proportions. A new nearby bank looks pretty much like a super-duper McMansion. Thomas Jefferson would be horrified.

Colleges are getting into the act, too. Now that Modern Architecture is out of fashion, Florida and Florida State seem determined to tack Gothic additions onto everything.

yello has got part of it right, about the lack of scale (that didn't come out sounding like I meant it to sound). Another part of it is the lot size and almost always the total lack of landscaping--which are also part of "scale." A huge house, even if "proportionate" within itself, still looks ridiculous on a small lot. A big house needs lots of elbow room, and a long, long driveway, and lot of older, taller treeas--big elms or oaks, or whatever. Maybe some out-buildings, carriage house, or discreetly tucked-away garages (with FROG [realtor-speak for "finished room over garage"]), a greenhouse, maybe a stable. A moat, maybe. SOMEthing.

What they usually have in lieue of landscaping are a couple (or even couple dozen) azeleas and arborvitae the Honduran Green Card-less landscape crew just planted about an hour ago, and a couple of saplings that aren't going to look good for 30 years. It just doesn't work. An mansion needs a 200-year-old tree, not a 4-foot tall Japanese maple.

Well, now that he's no longer screwing up Iraq, I'm glad to see Donald Rumsfeld is spending his golden years productively. Sasys here ( http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/16/AR2007091601564.html?hpid=sec-nations ) he's setting up a foundation to "encourage reasoned and civil debate."

*choke, choke, cough, choke, gag*

Cape Henlopen, eh? I spent two years there courtesy of Uncle Sam's Canoe Club. I think they decommissioned the Naval Facility about 15 years ago (it was immediately south of the park back then). I suspect that all that's left are those shore battery emplacements that they recycled for the base. The urban myth at the time was that they installed two 16" guns at either end of the casemate during WWII. They only ever test-fired one of them, which was reputed to have blown out all the windows in Lewes.

Last update on the object of my envy:

16 bedrooms
8 baths
27,450 square feet.

Remember, this was originally built for a family of three.

yello... you wouldn't want that house.. folks have to share bathrooms, for goodness sake.

I remember when a friend of mine was having a (regular-sized) house built a few years ago. They moved temporarily into a garden-style apartment, and their toddler son called it the "reeeealllllly BIG house" because he thought the whole building was theirs.

Come to think about it, that house on Gaither Farm Rd is probably about the size of that apartment building.

birdie, we have pileated woodpeckers here - right in the city of Seattle. There are lots of tall firs and bigleaf maples and some undeveloped ravine areas, as well as Lake Washington and some large parks nearby. But I was still surprised -and thrilled - when I saw one at the suet feeder. They've been coming around quite a bit lately. All "my" woodpeckers (flickers and downy, too) like suet, at all times of the year.

Old boodle business (alpacas) - L.A. lurker, I know you're not from Russia, but since that's your area of study, I meant it was understandable that you had not heard about alpacas. I'm fascinated by the Andean culture and music, and then there's the knitting obsession too. I've been lusting after alpaca yarn for a long time. Llamas and alpacas are used here in the NW for pack animals as well as for fiber. And yes, Mudge, they can also be eaten, but I would not want to do that.
http://www.american.edu/TED/alpaca.htm

I doubt that the mortgage-interest deduction ever will be repealed on anything.

1. The people who buy those giant houses are people in the social class to which legislators belong.

2. What are you going to do about the people who already have the mortgage-interest deducation on a house that size, before you pass the law?

3. What do you intend to do about the complete collapse of the real-estate market, as housing prices slump drastically due to the fact that a new home-buyer no longer can rely on the mortgage-interest deduction to save him tax money that he can spend on the mortgage?

Don't forget the $32000 annual property taxes yello.
And the power bill's got to be something too. Inmy view these Mc mansion come with way too much outside lights. Plastic siding is ugly and grass don't grow under incandescent lighting. There is no need to light the place a giorno.

I'd like to suggest one more attribute that qualifies a new home as a McMansion: built from oriented strand board (OSB). Now, combine that with the curious history of post-Andrew in Florida. It was discovered in some forensic analysis that not nearly enough nails were used in those houses. Be assured that unless you see a county inspector literally up on a roof (although a few good ones will actually do this, bless 'em), there is no assurance that enough nails will be used. The house won't last 100 years. Compare this to actual mansion built in Europe that will last 700 years or more if the roof is kept in repair.

Unfortunately the same stuff is also used now to build the smaller houses, too. The "housing bubble" is more accurate than some know. "Houses built as strong as bubbles" is more to the point.

I agree with you BankerTim. The mortgage deduction isn't going anywhere unless you are about to be hit with the AMT. For this area, my income is higher than median and my house is less expensive than median. For this sound reason I advocate increasing property taxes, perhaps even making them progressive, and cutting income taxes. Unfortunately, the trends are against me.

http://www.penobscotsolar.com/swdesignguide.pdf

Getting started with photovoltaics.

Learn about geothermal heat pumps.

http://www.geoexchange.org/

The last few years here have seen a lot of Giant Roofed Houses. These tend to come clustered in subdivisions of increasing oncome levels, but Giant Roofed Houses in the starter size are available. You can work your way up to a Giant Roofed McMansion. Mostly these are built in the north and west parts of the city. Coincidentally, that's also where the plains start. So you have a subdivision of tightly packed giant roofed houses with no trees (but lovely landscaping) and not much water. These Giant Roofed Houses are a real challenge to heat and cool in a climate with the extremes Oklahoma has had recently. I keep hoping that alone will end their evil reign.

The WSJ noted sometime last week that new house size is shrinking somewhat. Hurrah, I say.

I don't think comparing stick-built houses here is comparable to stone-built houses in Europe, Jumper --and I'm not sure we'd WANT to build houses to last 700 years here. There has to be a reasonable trade-off between durability and cost/effort. Yes, perhaps 40-50 years is too short (thought I'm not at all sure about that), but likewise insisting that everyone should live in a castle isn't realistic, either.

Also, I think all this panic about the housing market collapsing is pretty much nonsense. Just because it isn't a seller's market isn't necessarily a bad thing: that's what's called a "buyer's market." The housing market, like others kinds of markets, go through cycles. Are you really all that distraught because it has become difficult to get a $700,000 mortgage? That people who have made bad/insane investment decisions are now stuck with them? That banks made horrible decisions based on greed -- and are now suffering the consequences? Anybody out there feeling sorry for "the poor, poor developers"?

One person's "crisis" is another person's "market correction." I'm sorry market corrections hurt people. Sometimes bad actions have bad consequences. If you can't afford a $3,000 mortgage payment, don't buy such a big house. Learn to do without that 500-bottle temperature-controlled wine cellar.

McMansion landscaping in Florida is if anything even worse than the mid-Atlantic version. So many beautiful, easy-to-grow landscaping plants (including neat natives) are available, so few of them used.

The local world of specialty plant growers is astonishing.

Ladies in Okeechobee grow Florida-suitable roses. Tropical fruit nurseries provide everything from avocados to white sapote. I get palms and cycads from a high-competence hobby farm at a waterfront estate. Others purvey orchids, heliconias, bromeliads. A retired high school is the croton expert. And an outstanding native nursery can outfit an entire yard, easily.

I think but am not sure that ex post facto has been found by the Supremes to not apply to non-criminal law.

In North Carolina we are now debating transfer taxes on real estate (progressive by natural size of the deal)Some are even asking why the state does not put a plain ol' sales tax on real estate. And also some talk of impact fees which would also be proportional to the sale.

RE: alpacas. Here in southern Oregon, raising them (to hopefully sell for more than paid for) is a cottage industry. As they are grazers they need a lot of acreage but people here with an acre try to keep four or five. The result is pitiful looking animals in a barren feed lot situation. Not like those TV commericals. They get quite shaggy and forlorn looking before they get shorn every three or four years. The people across the way have one on about four acres. As all the grass here dries up in the summer, he takes every opportunity to get through the fence and into the flower garden while they are away at work. Much hilarity when they come home.

Pushing thru the market square, so many mothers sighing
News had just come over, we had five years left to cry in
News guy wept and told us, earth was really dying
Cried so much his face was wet, then I knew he was not lying
I heard telephones, opera house, favourite melodies
I saw boys, toys electric irons and T.V.'s
My brain hurt like a warehouse, it had no room to spare
I had to cram so many things to store everything in there
And all the fat-skinny people, and all the tall-short people
And all the nobody people, and all the somebody people
I never thought I'd need so many people

http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Five-Years-lyrics-David-Bowie/4C097F89A78166F5482568A2001051C0

I am a certified GeoExchange Designer, having taking the course from good ole OK State in Stillwater. Stillwater is a hotbed of geoexchange because there are a lot of well-diggers with too much time on their hands. A good rule of thumb is that you need an area of undeveloped land equal to the area of what you want to heat and cool with your system.

The systems are pricey because you have to bury a lot of pipe. And they are really just very fancy heat pumps systems. I will pay extra for the quality of gas heat.

Jumper,
There haven't been many news stories, but the relatively weak hurricane Wilma exposed a lot of shoddy construction in the southeast Florida urban area.

In theory, building codes in the southern peninsula are strict, but the hurricane-prone Panhandle still has very weak codes.

There's little point in building permanent houses. Fashions change rapidly, and the floor plans of 25 years ago are already obsolete. Houses built during the high-interest-rate 1970s are now cheap (at least in most Florida areas). In Orlando, the Red Cross, at least for a while, was regularly helping residents of 1970s Disney boom apartment complexes that had been declared unfit for habitation.

Mudge, I ain't crying about the buyer's market - I might get that little house I'm renting right now. Neat. Buy a house and I won't even have to move! But give up my 500 bottle climate controlled winecellar? Nyevah!

Jumper, one of Mr. T's cousins built a house and used geothermal heating. From what I hear, they like it a lot. They ran the pipes into a lake a couple of thousand feet away. It's beautiful, without being a McMansion. He bought a lot of recycled stuff, big beams and pecan flooring and the like, and did most of the work himself. This is how custom housing should be done. Of course, it helps that the house is on the family farm.

I maintain that they are obsolete because they were built of crap. Crap and formaldehyde. One thing about quality construction is that you can actually move interior walls around without weakening structure. And refinish solid wood floors and repolish tile. Unlike carpet and laminate which has to inevitably be ripped out and disposed of. Sometimes it costs less to build the best. And planned obsolescence moves a huge expense into the future. Demolishing a house is not cheap and what remains is not very recyclable and is landfilled. It's easy for developers to saddle the general taxpayers with a significant proportion of the disposal cost, too, even if they pay a nominal tipping fee for disposal.

The problem with the current housing collapse, of course, is that the people most hurt can afford it the least. Some people, of course, had a lot of money and hoped to make a lot more, and I too have little sympathy for them. Or less. However, this time the unsophisticated and undercapitalized were the hardest hit. These include the poor-credit first-time home buyer, who was persuaded to sign a mortgage she could barely afford with a balloon payment and variable interest rates, or the homeowner barely hanging on but persuaded to refinance the house, again at variable interest. And the schemes got much darker. Should many of these people have had credit extended? No. Should they have been buying homes? No. Was someone enriched at their expense? Yes, and they were also prey to the policy decision to encourage home buying (since, of course, the economy was just going to get better as the level of job creation continues to rise and the deficit falls).

This, of course, is separate from the McMansion disease. Whenever the Boy suggests we should move to a larger house my first question is always who will clean that house. Of course, if I built a McMansion I'd have a lot less to mow.

This house has hot water pipes heating the house-- fueled by a hot water furnance, of course. It seems to work well enough-- I was always too warm last winter ;).

Repost from last boodle:

Mudge, would you care to don your umpire dress and tell me which is accurate:

Trashtalking, trash talking, or trash-talking?

I prefer trash-talking, but trashtalking does have its merits.

So you call it. Is trash-talking a strike, ball, or foul?

It's one of those days that, if I think too hard about language, it dissolves into gibberish.

That cheers me up, Slyness. Most of the expense of the geothermal is installing the pipes. It still will pay off in 7 years and then keep saving scads of money. What kills me is around Charlotte - well, everywhere - they routinely rework properties and put in 10 - 20 feet of fill in some large parts of it. When they DON'T place the pipes THEN it's like throwing away 2/3 of an energy efficient heat exchange system.

Over here we don't (yet) do the Mc Mansions. But we do have this horrible style of housing disparegently called "fermettes" (little farms)
This one http://www.tweedehands.net/popup.php?photoid=foto1&aid=379767 is as typical as they get. There are thousands like these all over Flanders. And they seem to get bigger and bigger every year.
The landscaping that goes with them is a boring lawn with maybe a couple of raised beds with flowers.

If I had the money I'd buy this one: http://www.tweedehands.net/popup.php?photoid=foto1&aid=546780
That's my kind of house. (A steal at only 420.000 USD)

I answered those questionas at 5:40 this morning, Wilbrod, but would be happy to re-post:

'Morning, Boodle, Scotty, Cassandra.

Trash-talking. Foul (mostly unpunished).

Wilbrod, LTL, you'd love my swiss steak. Perhaps my signature dish, in my kids' opinion. Possibly my favorite comfort food (with extra-wide noodles).

(Wonder if braised alpaca would be any good? Hmm.)

Wandering off now in search of food, shower.

Posted by: Curmudgeon | September 17, 2007 05:40 AM

We have a regular-sized house on a small, pie-shaped lot that comes to a point in the back; mostly woods surrounding and behind us. Very little actual lawn. Very easy to maintain.

Even though our house is what I say is regular, others might call it large (two floors plus basement; each floor is about 900 sf). Except for sleeping, we mostly live in two rooms... the kitchen and the family room which is kind of one area that takes up the entire back half of the house.

The problem with McMansions is not that they have 16 bedrooms--they usually have only four, just like I do. They are just HUGE bedrooms that open into HUGE hallways. The front hall is usually HUGE, with a very high ceiling and lots of wasted space. There's usually a big, open HUGE empty area somewhere in the kitchen--much of that wasted space as well.

Even if you had a bigger family, a house designed like that wouldn't be much better than my house if you're sharing bedrooms and bathrooms anyway.

I wouldn't want a larger house; in fact I'd be happy with a much smaller house--with a settin' porch in front and a screened porch in back.

I love looking at house plans. I think I missed my calling. Very often McMansion plans are not really livable houses, they are just monuments to an idiot. Grand entrances with bedrooms no bigger than some in the mobile homes I've been intimately acquainted with and kitchens so poorly designed that a child couldn't make mud pies in it.

When we first had satellite TV, A & E was showing America's Castles very early Saturday mornings. I can't think of more than 2 or 3 houses which was ever lived in a substantial number of years by the people who built it. Confirmation of my own philosophy that dream houses should remain as dreams. (My dream home actually looks an awful lot like a mobile home, much to the chagrin of mr dr.)

Speaking of European building methods versus North American building methods, I know of a house built here European style. The family was from Germany, the papa was a contractor, and could simply not imagine building a house without building it to last. It has walls feet thick, and is THE coolest place I know.

Wilbrod... it's none of those choices... it's trash-talkin'.

Question to the Boodle: Are houses in the northern states in general smaller than those in the south?
I would assume they are because of heating a smaller space in the winter.

TBG,
Don't forget the silly rooms they make up just to use up all that under-roof acreage. His and hers walk-in closets. A two vanity dressing area outside the two-vanity bathroom with both a dual head shower AND a soaking tub. Office off of the master suite. Bonus kids room so they don't have to play in their own room.

Downstairs, there is the library, media center room, mud room, and the walk-in pantry. And of course, the wine cellar. We used to do those Dream House displays until we realized that there was no way to keep that many rooms tidy.

Eurotrash,

It's a matter of regional style. Houses in Florida tend to be one giant sprawling level, while ones in the mid-Atlantic go three or more levels. And of course, no basement in hurricane zones.

Personally, I don't need a big house.
When I think about it, maybe I don't need a house at all.

All I need is an 8000 sq ft garage with a 12 ft ceiling, a pair of lifts, hardline fittings for compressed air every 8 ft around the perimeter, a full array of lathes, welders, presses, metal brakes, hand and air tools, a paint booth, sandblasting cabinet, an oven (to bake powdercoated pieces), a stove (to boil ring gears in water before fitting them to differentials), a parts washer/sink, a toilet, refrigerator/freezer, a couch, a bed, and a TV that gets all the sports channels, and I'm good to go.

Hmm. Better make that a 10000 sq ft garage.
1970 Plymouth Superbirds are long, long cars and take up a lot of space.

bc

BC, that seems like a nice pad.

Reminds me of that hangar Clive Cussler's Dirk Pitt lives in.

bc, would you consider adding in a shower or bathtub? I'm sure you can find an automotive-related use for one.

Euro, in Canada house are of not any smaller due to heating costs - McMansions just as prevelent, complete with basements. Home heating really is relatively cheap here so it isn't that much of a deterrent, that is beginning to change though, gas and electricity rates are rising.

bc don't need no steenkin' shower

This all reminds me of the oddest but one of the best homes I ever saw. It consisted of a building about 20' x 35' housing a large kitchen and living/dining area. It sat next to a swimming pool. All around the pool were three concrete block buildings each of which was a bedroom with a bathroom in it. Covered walkways connected all the buildings. The block buildings were kept in good repair, they had good windows and weren't cavelike or cramped. It was the home of the designer, his wife, their two high-school aged kids. It was affordable, long lasting, and very sensible. Needless to say he trusted his kids not to abuse their privacy, and they responded by being trustworthy kids.

Jumper... you just described my dream house. Add in a screened porch by the pool, though.

Darn Euro, that's a pretty nice place.

Here's what $420K USD gets you in Calgary these days:

http://www.mls.ca/PropertyDetails.aspx?vd=&SearchURL=%3fPage%3d21%26Mode%3d0%26vs%3dResidential%26ret%3d300%26sts%3d0-0%26beds%3d0-0%26baths%3d0-0%26aid%3d6399%26MapURL%3d%3fAreaID%3d6399%26mp%3d400000-450000-0%26mrt%3d0-0-4%26trt%3d2%26of%3d1%26ps%3d10%26o%3dA&Mode=0&PropertyID=6133150

Shower?

That falls under "parts washer."

[Didn't say what parts I wuz washin'. Or whose.]

bc

My brother-in-law used to live in a Unabomber cabin. It was about 25 x 25 square. A partition divided the kitchen/dining room from the living room/bedroom. He had a loft bed. The bathtub sat on a platform on one end of the bedroom. Only the toilet had a full wall and door enclosure.

The property abutted Skywalker Ranch, but my b-i-l claimed George never complained about the noise when he and his friends would test Burning Man concepts.

Oh yes! Hi Pat!

mostlylurking, I'll have to try some suet feeders. I have in the past but never regularly. It's fun to see any type of woodpecker. Knock-knock. Thanks for sharing!

I wonder how big a garage Jay Leno has? Doesn't he have a collection of twenty or so cars? Wow, a neighbor hood full of nothing but big garages. I think there would be few women in that neighborhood.

IIRC Leno has not so much garages as nicely finished warehouses.

Jay's a friend of a friend, and he's tells me stories about them JayWalking through the collection, picking something interesting out, firing it up, and going for a drive. Something that might be a cheap silly car, or something worth millions of dollars.

Euro, I don't know if houses in the north are smaller than in the south, per se, but I do think that houses in the south tend to "appear" larger than they really are because houses in the south tend to have many more porches and verandahs, if they were built back before air conditioning became prevalent. In the south, because of the heat, people spent so much time sitting out on the porch -- even sleeping at night out on the porch -- that its quite common to see houses with porches on three, if not all four sides. And even now, many houses have what is called (in Florida) a "Florida room," a very big, screen-in porch that is almost but not quite a full-blown interior room. [Of course, in the Carolinas they are called "Carolina rooms," and I guess in Arizona they are called Arizona rooms, I suppose.]

And of course in cities, you see many, many row houses, duplexes and triplexes where you are lucky to have a very small front porch -- or even nothing at all.

(When I was born my family lived in a "trinity" or "father-son-holy ghost" rown house [so named because it was three rooms deep, or three rooms and a kitchen in our case] row house in Philly. It was two stories, and my grandparents lived upstairs, and we lived downstairs.)

(Which is to say, once upon a time it was quite common for three generations--and even four -- to live together in the same house. Not these days, of course. Which I think is a great loss to society as well as to family life in general. But that's another story.)

The neighborhood where I grew up made the front page of The Post yesterday and today:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/metro/comingofage/index.html

It still seems a bit odd to think that my old elementary school is now a senior citizen center. And seeing pictures of seniors doing tai chi in what was the cafeteria doesn't help. Not that I'm really complaining; they are doing a good job of using the building and I will be able to join them soon ;-)

Curmudgeon, that may be changing as young adult college graduates move back in with their parents. It is happening a lot. Okay, then they finally get the high-paying job and get transferred. But it's taking longer.

Ours back in Virginia was called "sun porch" or enclosed porch. Up in Minnesota, those are called "sun rooms", because they're pretty dang glassed up.

Of course in winter, they're more like iceboxes.

Yo' trash-talkin' me, TBG? Yo want to do some dirty dozens about yo' mama?

I think I'll stick with trash-talking before I do some wash-walking for my laundry.

Bc's garage sounds nice, if permanently redolent of oil and other hydrocarbons that shouldn't be breathed around the clock by anything but an combustion engine.

Yeah, SoC, sort of a shame isn't it. My son built his house and paid $148,000, which he can afford. By the time he moved in, the same 20 x 20 2 storey house was costing double (which he could not have afforded) to build. No fixed up basement, no landscaping. It's gone up some more in the 2 years since he moved in. Prices are stabilising though, and at that end of the market, there still is great demand. Regular family sized homes are usually priced at over half a million.

My own is priced at a value I would never pay for it. It's nuts.

If an area really wanted to crack down on McMansions, a property tax increase levied according to square footage in single-family homes (rather than wholly on land prices which depend on location, location) could probably be fiddled to work to squelch oversized houses in tiny lots.

"Property is 65% home: base rate for land acreage x 1.65%"

I guess this whole McMansion thing plays into the American fascination with more. If only we could learn to appreciate less. But with a really fast internet connection.

Greed is a survival trait.

Even when you don't need to be greedy to survive?

Although what Wilbrod wrote could certainly be the labrador retriever motto.

First Charles Nelson Riley, and now this.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/17/AR2007091700861.html

Just pointing out it's instinctive rather than purely cultural. You never know when lean times will come.

Of course greed can take various forms. Some are going to overeat (like I do) when there's so much to be had.

When it comes to money, it's a little abstract for many people. For me and some others, being stingy and frugal with spending is how we translate the need to have stuff for a rainy day.

Other seem intent on turning their cash into useless junk they don't need, or status displays-- plowing money into social goodwill or just visual abundance now.

For them having money would be the same as an overeater having a 24/7 buffet table open in their home right after coming off a diet.

They want to have everything they couldn't have when they were 'dieting'.

Needless to say, either scenario isn't going to produce lasting happiness.

RD thanks for posting that, I saw it earlier in the day. I remember watching Match Game when I was young, she was a bit of a role model for me.

Wilbrod, I strongly suspect it is illegal to fiddle with a tax rate like that (Ivansmom?). And even if it was legal, nobody would pass it. Real estate taxes are almost universally levied based on assessed value. So if you wanted to inflict a punitively large tax on that one kind of lot, it would have to be based on assessed value. If the house isn't built yet, there's very little assessed value--just on the empty ground. [No jurisdiction in its right mind is ever going to punitively tax open land. You'd hear the screaming from one end of the county to the other.] You can assess the house after it is built--but by then it is too late. And even so, you'd have to tax ALL the houses in the jurisdiction at the same rate--so you'd in effect be asking the citizens to approve a massive tax hike against themselves. Ain't gonna happen.

Jurisdictions DO have various and sundry kinds of "usage" fee taxes and penalty taxes for various kinds of development; usually they either don't work or have limited (and often unpopular) value. Here in Charles County, there is a special excise tax of $10,000 on new home construction, intended both to slow development and to pay for new schools, increased infrastructure, etc. So you know what developers do? They buy up all the ground just on the other side of the county border. We have developers who are selling their XYZ House in Charles County for $280,000 and two blocks away selling the same house across the line for $270,000. So Charles County doesn't get the $10,000, but the local community has grown anyway, and people get the impression that housing is cheaper in X County than Y county (which it is). So where do all the developers go? X County. Which quickly becomes overdeveloped until it puts in its own excise tax. At which point costs are equalized again--and nothing is accomplished (and the $10,000 isn't enough to truly compensate for the infrastructure anyway). Meanwhile, all the realtors in Y County are howling at their board of commissioners to get rid of the excise tax, which is killing their business. As are the developers. As are the lawyers. As are the owners of the Wal-Mart and the Bob Evans, etc. And I know this from experience: realtors pay attention, they have PACs, and they vote. And for good or ill, it is NOT in their interest to restrict or damp down development and homebuilding. Who is on the "other side"? 14 NIMBYs and the 7 "greens" in the neighborhood, none of whom are worth a darn as organizers or political movement leaders. The NIMBYs are truly worthless, and the "greens" have their heads up...well... you know where. The fact that their hearts may be in the right place is irrelevant. [I've spent a lot of the past 40 years covering those people; not even the Chicago Cubs have as lousy a win-loss record.]

Correct, Mudge. Posto facto punishment doesn't work. That's why zoning and housing codes exist.

And I bet my boots that there's nothing illegal in taxing on other than assessed value of property.

The laws concerning what are regarded as assets and what are not have NOTHING to do with the actual value or usefulness of the property. I've filled out enough paperwork to know.

Those laws, yes, should be intended to improve house values and livability, rather than punish people for being wasteful.

What I would REALLY like to see is an universal design access building code for private homes, so more disabled people could buy and own homes without having to retrofit things, that in some cases, can't be retrofitted.

If architects and developers routinely thought in such terms for multistory buildings, they'd be able to sell taller (three story or more) homes to baby boomers with knee problems and other health issues that might make a large one-story home seem more appealing.

It's not just about NIMBYism... or being green... it's about making decisions that benefit the county.

I'm sure if one county passed a law that all new houses HAD to be universal design and accessible by wheelchair (everywhere), that wouldn't hurt business at all.

I know people who would rather have one or two large accessible bathrooms than 4-5 baths (a case where space makes sense).

70% of disabled people don't own homes. And baby boomers are increasingly facing taking care of their parents or themselves. They want first-floor bedrooms and everything on the first floor because of the stairs.

Take these stairs away in multistory homes and that opens up customer demand for large homes that don't eat up the yard.

No, Wilbrod, there's nothing illegal in taxing on something other than assessed value. BUT a jurisdiction would have to scrap its entire existing tax structure. Why would anybody DO that? You have to live in the real world, Wilbrod. No jurisdiction is going to completely revise its entire system for any reason, much less the ones suggest. "The good of the county." Gimme a break.

Florida has a large homestead exemption on owner-occupied properties which adds a slight progressivity to property taxes. It also sucks up the tax base of poor rural counties.

There are problems when you base property taxes on something other than market value.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Proposition_13_(1978) A real Horror.

Wilbrod, are you suggesting that every home must have a wheelchair ramp?
You're sure that building homes to accomodate every conceivable human handicap wouldn't hurt business?.Based on what?
I'm still puzzling over how removing stairs will make multistorey bldgs. more accessable. For bats?

Govt. could mandate a house footprint to lot size ratio or get the same result by modifying setbacks already in place.

The town I grew up in is fairly well-to-do. There are a lot of beautiful old Victorian, colonial and large cape style homes there. About ten years ago, in an area of very nice, upscale older homes, someone bought a house, tore it down and proceeded to build the ugliest, boxiest, flat-roofed, modern, house on this rather small lot. They ran out of money in the middle of building it and it sat half completed for a year or two. The uproar from the neighbors was quite loud. But eventually the house was finished and it is possibly the most out of place looking building I have ever seen. No landscaping, an unfinished concrete pool visible from the street, and peeling paint complete the picture. I was amazed that there was never an unexplained fire during construction.

Builders build McMansions because there are plenty of people with lots of money and no taste who will buy them. With the mortgage crisis I think this trend may be coming to an end, thank goodness. There are some very nice large homes around here, but it is obvious that these were designed by architects with some talent, and the lots are large enough to compliment the houses. That said, I like my small house because it's helping to make my bank account larger.

Florida's Growth Management Act encourages the use of impervious surface and floor area ratios for building on lots. The most frequent (it varies from county to county and town to town) in this area is 40% impervious surface cover (including any paved or pool area on the lot) and 75% floor area, including 2nd or higher floors.

Florida's homestead exemption was $25,000 per owner occupied home, but will increase to $50,000 on a formula basis. The "Save Our Homes" amendment limited increases to 3% a year, regardless of fair market value.
Thus, a homestead residence purchased for $100,000 10 years ago is taxed at $130,000 today, less the $25,000 exemption. Under the new law, the fair market value (say, $200,000 today) will be the basis for the new $50,000 homestead exemption, thus the owner will pay taxes on $150,0000 instead of the $105,000 current tax assessed rate ($130,000 less $25,000, compared to $200,000 less $50,000). The new rates will be subject to a referendum next year.

I'm against a mortgage interest rate deduction. Apartment dwellers and renters already pay a disproportionate amount of property tax in most jurisdictions. Giving homeowners even more just adds injury to injury.

Boko-- Take a look at this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americans_with_disabilities

At the present rate, I think developers in America are only required to do maybe 1 in 100 houses for disablities, and that's by progressive jurisdictions, and the developers really have no clue what that is-- what, a ramp? a wired doorbell? That is something that leads to explicit discrimination to people in disablities.

Tougher standards on what is considered "liveable" design would force the development of houses that could be more easily retrofited.

Here's an instance. My parents bought an old home that has a steep stairwell. I measured it carefully.

Most steps are 8 inches deep, with the final step being 10 inches deep. The steps are 6 inches wide. At the end of the stairs, there is a drop in the headroom due to a cabinet extant there; it drops to less than 6 feet. To put a ramp there instead of a stairs is impossible because of the headroom pinch; even by extending stairs a yard more (which is feasible on the floor and would otherwise provide a smoother descent) is impossible because of that headroom.

To build a ramp there would mean doing a lot more damage to the upper stories (taking out a nice cabinet/closet, maybe aligning the ramp 90 degrees, etc.).

It is unfeasible because of the original design forbids such retrofitting. Now, it's a nice house and this didn't look horrible at first.

My parents are old, my mom has a knee that needs replacing. They quickly found out after a month that the stairs are too steep for them. They can't even put in flatter stairs with only 6 inch rises (which would be easier on their knees) because of that design.

I myself just twisted my ankle on that stairs over 3 weeks ago-- the worst I've ever done it in my life.

They love the house otherwise, but that's wasted space right there because of the design. That's what I'm talking.

Likewise, a design that forces a lot of obstacles and cramping is also a bad choice for a blind person to live in, simply because they can't always be sure if somebody else is already standing in a bottleneck.

A cluttered design with extraneous walls or stairs also presents line-of-view problems for deaf people. It also creates a less spacious feel.

There is a serious need to do universal design or at least mandate designs that can be easily adapted to ramps or other needs without gutting the whole house.

My parents' friends live in a house-- only 10 years old (and thus built AFTER the ADA) that has extra stairs everywhere even on the "first floor". The poor lady has had foot surgery and she can't make it to the kitchen from her bedroom without navigating stairs. It's a beautiful house, but she wants a new one because of the stairs. Her priorities have changed.

The thing about those designs that they look so great when you're ablebodied-- what's a step or two?-- until you're not.

That includes houses that have a foyer and stairs up and stairs down-- no straight walk into the first floor, which was very fashionable for a while and tends to be a favorite of very large house designs.

Even if you're never permanently disabled, consider the idea of trying to navigate your own house's stairs on crutches. I was fortunate to have a roommate when I had my foot surgery because I was on crutches for 6 weeks and forbidden even to touch my left foot to the ground.

Mudge, because your sports team obviously lost, I'll say you win this argument. I have NO interest whatsoever in arguing tax codes.

However, there's no need to "completely overhaul" anything. That's a strawman.

The same result hypothetically could be worked by a tax break for undeveloped land on the same lot, which would easily be worked by developers to get themselves taxbreaks if they made the right decisions.

Also, may I mention that our national income tax code has been rewritten about every 2 years and has more twist and bends in it than a corkscrew now.

Otherwise, you can keep arguing tax structures if you want. Don't make any more personal attacks on me.

Boko-- amen on that brother. I hate the disrespect renters get.

It costs a lot to rent, and it doesn't seem appropriate for that to not be counted when mortagages are.

That Florida scheme makes the system unnecessarily complex and increases the tax incidence on renters. What's the point if every home owner gets a $25,000 exemption? It's slightly progressive, I'll give it that.

Next up: taxing breathing. Good or bad idea? Discuss.

I don't know what to say to you Wilbrod. I've seen and valued homes that have been modified for people with all sorts of disabilites, ramps, lowered switches and countertops for people in wheelchairs, Blinking lights linked to the doorbell and video systems for the hearing impaired. These are very specialized and I just don't see how residential bldg. codes could encompass or anticapate all these various needs.
I love arguing tax code issues. I got a diploma in it. Bring it on.

"Apartment dwellers and renters already pay a disproportionate amount of property tax in most jurisdictions. "

Around these parts, only property owners pay any property tax. And the county is pretty much funded purely on real-estate taxes. (The only reason Republican Jim Gilmore ever won the governor's race in Virginia was his promise to "end the car tax.")

My mortgage is now only a small portion of the worth of the house, thanks to rising assessments. But my taxes go up when the assessed value goes up. My mortgage deduction is about twice what I pay in property taxes, but of course the longer I hold my mortgage, the less interest I'll pay and the smaller my deduction.

So when I've paid off my mortgage and still own my home, I'll get no deduction (just like a renter), but will be paying probably twice the taxes I'm paying now (unlike a renter).

Let me tell you how it will be;
There's one for you, nineteen for me.
'Cause I'm the taxman,
Yeah, I'm the taxman.

Should five per cent appear too small,
Be thankful I don't take it all.
'Cause I'm the taxman,
Yeah, I'm the taxman.

(if you drive a car, car;) - I'll tax the street;
(if you try to sit, sit;) - I'll tax your seat;
(if you get too cold, cold;) - I'll tax the heat;
(if you take a walk, walk;) - I'll tax your feet.

Taxman!

'Cause I'm the taxman,
Yeah, I'm the taxman.

Don't ask me what I want it for, (ah-ah, mister Wilson)
If you don't want to pay some more. (ah-ah, mister heath)
'Cause I'm the taxman,
Yeah, I'm the taxman.

Now my advice for those who die, (taxman)
Declare the pennies on your eyes. (taxman)
'Cause I'm the taxman,
Yeah, I'm the taxman.

And you're working for no one but me.

Taxman!
-Lennon and the other guy.

Apartment owners pay property taxes, and that's figured in rents, I'm sure. It would be interesting to see what percentage of rent is applied to property taxes. Boko, you got data on that? I'm sure it exists, but I've just never seen it.

Right now the escrow for taxes and insurance on my mortgage is much, much higher than the principal, but at least the property tax is deductible on income taxes.

TBG- Are you telling me that apartment building owners don't pay property taxes where you live? If they do, where do you think they get the money to pay the taxes?

If the value of the property base goes up faster than the cost of providing services then the tax rate should go down. It shouldn't raise your taxes at all. Unfortunately municipalities don't lower the rate and look on the increased revenue as a windfall.

That half ending by the Redskins looked like something written up by Hollywood. Was that really for real??

Slyness, the rates for different types of property should be available from your county/municipality. I'd check their website first.
What pecentage of a persons rent would go to taxes would depend on a lot of different things, rent paid, location, building type, efficiency of the landlord against the tax assessed for the building.
I have no idea where to find the answer to your question.

I know, bh. They're hard on my heart.

I kinda feel a little sorry for McNabb--he looks rusty and only about 80%. But I don't want him to get better until NEXT week.

You're right Boko and Slyness. Renters pay the property taxes indirectly. I didn't realize that's what you were saying.

(But I guess we're all paying someone's overhead every time we pay for something.)

I've got to stop boodling now. We're watching the Redskin game delayed on Tivo and are still five or six minutes away from halftime. I'm afraid I'll find out something I don't want to know yet.

G'night!

Yeah, kbertocci, many thing I see make me think that if people have enough money left over for *that*, then taxes aren't high enough.

Boko-- at least a start could be done on "reasonable design." Like, if an reasonably spry 80 year old woman might have problems getting around in it, maybe the design sucks, no?

Like you say, there are a lot of specialized modifications.

Wiring doorbells for the disabled isn't that hard. I've always used stuff I could buy from radio shack.

All you need to do is have a plentiful supply of outlets, and a chance for any given doorlight to illuminate more than one room.

However I vastly prefer a hearing dog to those doorbells because:

1) another tenant stole my doorbell (which was secured by velcro and played with it at 11 PM.

2) some idiot of a tenant upstairs kept "accidentally knocking off" a landlord-installed doorbell. The maintenance man finally promised to take care of it after I complained mightily and showed it was nearly impossible for anybody to "accidentally brush against it. Apparently he had a good idea who the culprit was (I did too-- somebody who had just moved in), and it stopped occuring as much after that.

Also, even in a tiny apartment, the light only illuminated half of it, so I really needed two. I never did get that second one.

As for blind people-- a lot of specialized changes might involve putting up tactile surfaces and fastening carpet runners. wheelchair users also may need ramps.

But in general, it's not a bright idea to have any point in the house where two people might have problems passing each other without bumping into each other, or where an open door might completely obstruct a passageway.

That's what I call a reasonable move towards universal design. Those are traffic bottleneck points that make life harder for a handicapped person to figure out their own accomodations. I know a woman who rented an apartment and she couldn't get in the bathroom in her own wheelchair. She needed help for that.

She loved the apartment I was in because it was actually very accessible-- flat, no steps, bathroom was large enough she could wheel right in and use it.

She told me stories of how friends would have to lift her over steps just so she could visit them. That's kind of humilating, wouldn't you think?

Many bathrooms adapted for seniors have railings to help seniors step in and out of bathtubs, or showers with extensible hoses.

Little things like that really do make a difference between being able to live independently and being really dependent.

The structure has to be able to accomodate metal rails or other props in the bathroom if that becomes necessary.

That again, means no bottlenecks or cramping the entrance to the tub or shower with toilets or sinks in such a way it's difficult to install non-slip mats.

I agree not all needs can be anticipated-- but bad traffic bottlenecks and hazardous placement of doors and built-in fixtures can be avoided.

Fire codes mandate clear exits and placement of furniture away from the windows for anybody renting a place-- for good reason.

What I am proposing is a healthy step forward in common sense design; stairs should have a 1:1 rise/run or lower, for instance, and head room of at least 7 feet throughout, and at least 8 feet at the bottom, and a clearance of at least 5 feet before any doorway intersecting the path by the stairs. That'd allow for installation of ramps with a 30 degree run, I think, ramped on the initial stairs, or an lift installed.

Have you ever seen a wheelchair lift on stairs? They're slow, uncomfortable, and block the whole stairway. They're the compromise where elevators or ramps can't be installed.

The best thing about Gallaudet's renovating Hall Memorial Building in 1992 was that they got rid of those little stairs everywhere that required wheelchair lifts and slowed down foot traffic.

Bottom line.... there is a lot, a lot of room for improvement in designing new homes to be usable by far more people.

You may not be seeing it because you're not familiar with disability issues or what the needs are, but the difference between accessibility and inaccessibility can be as thin as a single inch.

Therefore, you can never go wrong with making sure there is ample room for two people to walk abreast with some elbow room at every point in the house, including on the turns. That means at least 1.25 m clearance.

I know a woman who successfully sued a city because the library had the bookshelves so close together, she couldn't go through in her power wheelchair at all. The difference was just this one inch for straight passages, and worse for turns. She had to take it to court for them to move the bookcases apart.

If we can build McMansions, we sure as heck can build houses with wider passageways and doors.

Heck, victorian houses have much wider doorways and doors than we have today. They saw the use of it in a way we have forgotten.

(ahem) George Harrison wrote "Taxman". Although apparently McCartney played lead guitar on the song, and George played bass, which I didn't realize till now.

Mudge, I'm sure I would love your Swiss steak. My recipe is pretty similar, and sometimes I pound it (thicker pieces to start with). I prefer it on mashed potatoes to noodles, but just about any starch is fine.

Ah I found a guide for building a house to be more accessible:
http://www.uniteddesign.com/Idea_Wk_Jour_ada.html

Those are the ironclad basics. Cabinet and other modifications can be done on the homeowner's own nickel and often really just means replacing what is already there, which is easier than knocking down walls or trying to add space that isn't there.

Oops! Who's George Harrison?

I agree with you, Boko; in fact, I think the percentage of tax a renter pays is virtually unknowable. A jurisdiction probably knows the aggregate taxes paid by partment building owenrs. But no jurisdiction keeps track of how much rent a tenant pays (except in the relatively rare rent-controlled sections of cities, like Santa Monica). The reason is that rent isn't any business of the county--the owner sets the rent, but he doesn't have to report it except as gross income on his overall business. An d he's got mortgage payments, appreciation, depreciation, maintence costs, yadda yadda yadda. There's no way to go back into his tax records, pluck out the right number, aggregate it across the jurisdiction, and then do the math. The answer is "there," but nobody can get to it. And other than curiosity, what use does it have? Even if you had that stat, what are you going to do with it?

Phillies have blown an 11-0 lead and now lead the Cards 12-11 in the 8th. Phily fans must be VERY testy tonight.

Part of the McMansion phenomenon is that in a time of rapidly rising values, if you're going to buy and soon sell a property, the more you spend (borrow, really) the more you make, so the bigger the better. If your reason for living there is to make 15% after living there a year, you might not care what sort of place it is.

That's a great site Wilbrod.

"Around these parts, only property owners pay any property tax. And the county is pretty much funded purely on real-estate taxes."

Well, TBG, let me ask this: if the property is an apartment house, where does the owner get the money to pay the property tax?

Yes, Boko-- the experts say it so much better than I can, they actually have architecture training and all.

You have to calculate the cash flow of an apartment bldg. or its comparables to value it. So assessors do gather info on rents paid and would be able to give a rent/tax ( taxes are an expense)ratio for a particular bldg. They just wouldn't care.

Back when I rented, I insisted that the lease include a proviso that as renter I paid the proportionate share of property taxes, thus keeping it a deductible, while keeping the rental cost within market rate.

That may be in some areas, Boko--but in this area a pretty high (maybe 30 to 40%) of apartments are spare rooms in houses, or tax write-off triplexes, etc.--the kinds of units that don't appear in tax records. My wife and I used to own one such triplex a dozen years ago. It was basically a tax shelter--the income was offset by the mortgage payment, etc. We honmestly reported our income, but no tax assessor ever had a clue about the number of tenants in the building (one, as it happened). And they don't talk to the IRS.

I can't believe we won that game. That is mon--u--mental.

Wether a property is being held as a tax shelter wouldn't figure in calculating a rent to property tax ratio from a tenants point of view unless the owner's income impacted on the amount of prop. tax he paid. I pay $1400 a year tax and could probably realize $9600 a year if I rented it out. Figuring out the ratio in a multi unit bldg. or in a home were a portion is given over to a tenancy would be just a little more complicated. But should only be done after a morning coffee.
If some properties don't appear in tax records then the owners of the ones that do are getting screwed.
G'night

The Eagles kept it interesting. Kept us watching until the end unlike last night.

For those of you still buzzing from the Skins game(I can never go right to sleep after watching football) Young Frankenstein is on AMC.

"We honmestly reported our income, but no tax assessor ever had a clue about the number of tenants in the building" [apparently he thought the number was zero?]

So you're paying tax on an SFR when it's really a MFR, or SFR plus apartment. As a taxpayer, I expect my employees like the county assessor to do their job better than that...even if sometimes they might ding me for something.

Economists and environmentalists are always at odds with each other. To finding a balance on how to display your wealth to the world and not hurt the environment is difficult.

It's official.

Thinking that traffic coming from search engines will offer even more page views and advertising revenue than pay-per-view (so to speak), the NYT is ending paid subscriptions.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/18/business/media/18times.html?em&ex=1190260800&en=250352c25358a640&ei=5087%0A

Somebody boodled that the NYP had an article predicting this, a few weeks ago.

Great! Thanks for the link, dbG.

*trembling hands trying not to spill coffee*

Th-th-th-the Boodle k-k-k-kept returning a "Server N-n-n-n-ot Found" error earlier this m-m-m-m-m-m-morning...

*one-handed Grover waves while breathing deeply into a paper bag*

:-)

As a public employee, I have seen the tax question from the other side: how can local government get the most services out of the least taxes? The recession of the early 90's hit us hard, and city government went through gut-wrenching changes that ultimately proved to be extremely beneficial, to citizens and employees alike. But it was a tough process. Key to survival were flexibility and the ability to accept change on the fly.

Currently, about half of the city property tax revenues support public safety, i.e., police and fire. It makes me laugh when people move to the next county over to McMansions with *lower* property taxes. What they save in property taxes they pay in insurance, because the lower the level of fire protection, the higher the insurance.

Thanks, I'll stay in the city, where I know I will get help in a reasonable length of time from fire and police, where I can be assured of safe water and decent wastewater treatment, and I know the garbage will be picked up weekly. If I have a problem, I can dial 311 and be connected to the people who can do something about it. And if that doesn't work, the local media will be very interested to hear my story.

'tis a crisp cool morning, which makes hot fresh coffee all the more delightful. Especially when consumed while reading articles such as this.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/17/AR2007091701780.html?hpid=news-col-blog

Man, there are days when I just live for this stuff.

RDP, that sure explains Kucinich... *L*

I am positively giddy that the TimesSelect Jericho Wall has been shattered.

http://livebythefoma.blogspot.com/2007/09/mo-modo.html

Not that WaPo doesn't have good columnists, but none are as hawt as MoDo.

Time to think about planting tomatoes.

Wilbrod's dream of universal design being the norm has a long way to go. There's huge resistance to creating accessible bathrooms, for some reason. Perhaps buyers distrust anything that's not familiar. Or builders don't anything unusual.

Eurotrash's "fermette" is actually very tasteful and solid-looking by Florida standards. Of course here brick is out of fashion except for college campuses, so most brick buildings have been painted pink.

Poor S'nukey. It's no fun to get all ascared like that when you're waking up. You have a nice 5 or 6 coffees and you'll feel all better. It was probably only a bad bad dream.

I couldn't get to Achenblog or del.ico.us from home this morning. Thank goodness for broadband at work.

Hooray!! Thanks for the heads up on the NYT. I knew if I cancelled my sub. and played hard to get they'd come around. Maureen! Hey, Maureen!

"Th-th-th-the Boodle k-k-k-kept returning a "Server N-n-n-n-ot Found" error earlier this m-m-m-m-m-m-morning..."

Another good reason to sleep in! Especially after a late Monday NIght game.


(LTL-CA... I conceded the point about renters and property tax shorterly after my stupid statement.)

Wilbrod, good information about handicapped access and building. After our adventures with the Stick this past year, wheelchairs, walkers, crutches, I wholeheartedly agree. the upside of our houseses floor plan, is that if we had to put in an elevator, it would not be hard to do, nor would it significantly change any of the current structures.

I redid the kitchen a couple years ago, and it is not walker friendly, a fact which bangs me in the shins daily. (Stick claims right of way by virtue of being injured. We don't fall for it.) I've often wished I have done it a little differently.

Re. NY Times select, I repost something I wrote in the Achenblog October 6, 2005, from the Mo Dowd Samizdat Kit and Boodle:

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/achenblog/2005/10/maureen_dowd_samizdat.html

"The NYT Select experiment - call it chutzpah or hubris - is very interesting, and my gut says that it's not going to work (ask Stephen King what he thinks about it), because it hasn't done well in the past. Maybe it'll work this time...?"

Chalk another 'W' up for my gut.

bc

Posted by: bc | October 6, 2005 10:34 PM

Watched 'Georgia Rule' last night. Jane Fonda, Felicity Huffman and Lindsay Lohan. WOW. Breakout the kleenex before sitting down to this one.

I remember that sad tragic day, bc. Here is me going through the DTs really bad.

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/achenblog/2005/10/maureen_dowd_samizdat.html#c206527

It's like the NYT just opened a methadone clinic next to my house.

All you Nats fans and knitters know this is the Nats last week at RFK right. I was thinking of going to one last game myself. The weather should be perfect.

The early poster who says the big houses are because we don't have enough taxes is right on... When elected I will use Presidential Authority to order personal income taxes begin at 45% on the first $50K, then progress to 90% on everything above $100K per annum... Let those fat cats pay...
No deductions of any kind for anyone, including no deductions for interest, say on mortgages, or dependents, or expenses...
You got a buck coming in you owe the tax... That ought to satisfy those of you with house envy...

Did anyone else see this, a Nebraska State Senator is suing God, in a response to frivolous lawsuits.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070918/ap_on_fe_st/odd_suing_god;_ylt=AiyoNBUnjJkMfcAsIX_f2Nis0NUE

Proposals have been submitted. The next one is not due for two more weeks. I have four more weeks before I have to travel. I am fully funded for this year, although next year is a little shaky. At this moment, life is good. What more can we ask?

Good news Tim, good news. May next year firm up in short order.

Suing God will get you about as far as suing OJ.

And one wonders where God would find a lawyer?

My question is what is the point of protesting a frivolous lawsuit with a frivolous lawsuit?

Congrats Tim - perhaps a multi-year funding could be your wish.

Tim,
Looks like you have plenty of time for back to school meetings and fall yardwork. Enjoy.

Methinks the good senator from cornland wants his 15 minutes under the bright lights.

No, no -- I HAVE multi-year funding. For 50%. It's the other 50% that's worrisome. The recent and near-term proposals are for observing time. Thus, they are requests for the opportunity for me to please spend some money, not opportunities for me to please get some money. Those proposals were submitted mostly in the Spring and Summer, now we are waiting for (un-named Federal agency) to decide how to divide its puny stack of shekels.

Protesting frivolous lawsuits with an extraordinarily frivolous lawsuit is a reductio ad absurdem argument -- taking a seemingly logical point and stretching it to its limits. Street theater. It actually accomplishes its goal very nicely -- look at how we are discussing the fact that there obviously is something bent in the civll legal system if such a suit can proceed. It may also make the anti-religion crowd happy (hear that, SF?). Although, it puts them in the position of arguing either: (a) there is no God, so there is no basis to have a lawsuit that will keep this issue in the spotlight; or, (b) there is a God, and we are inviting his righteous wrath.

Tell them you're using the big scope to look for little green trerrists on Proxima's third moon, that should keep the shekels coming.

I didn't realize the precarious nature of an astronomer's funding.
I suppose standing on mountaintops while staring off into space would help you get used to it.

There actually are not all that many astronomers who have no worries about paying the mortgage next year. I/we manage to keep going, but the sense of constant anxiety cuts into one's effectiveness a bit. And it makes it a tad difficult to go into classrooms and tell kids to consider careers in science and engineering. Which is why I go into classrooms and tell kids about the intrinsic interest and value in being aware of the universe, career be hanged.

Good morning! Little green extraterrestrials deciding the presidential race and a suit against God - what a way to start the day.

The pointlessness of that lawsuit, and its caprice, is what proves the legislator's point: anyone can go file a lawsuit about anything. However, the feds and all states can also punish you by making you and your lawyers pay a lot of money if the suit has absolutely no basis. We lawyers seldom admit publicly to frivolity but those suits are "frivolous". Hmmm. Perhaps that's our problem as lawyers; we've defined "frivolous" as a bad thing rather than playful or sportive. But I digress.

Something I read, or perhaps just the penumbra (another lawyer word) of media coverage, suggested that Goldman, taking advantage of O.J.'s character, set him up. Goldman, of course, is Ron Goldman's father, and his ambition in life is to get the money awarded in the civil suit which O.J. so far has avoided paying (no assets, y'know). Goldman got the rights to O.J.'s book after it was pulled from the market and published it himself, as a confession rather than a hypothetical (the Brown family, the other victims, were not pleased). So the idea is that Goldman sets O.J. up by sending this guy to tell him where the memorabilia sellers will be and take him to their room to get his stuff. You know, the guy who recorded the event. O.J. goes to jail and Goldman gets the goods, which are worth money. That part about getting the goods, at least, appears to be true.

I agree we are talking about his frivolous lawsuit, but it has overshadowed the purpose he said he was upset about. Instead of discussing whether "rape" or "victim" should be allowed in a trial we are talking about his goofy lawsuit.

Hope that makes sense I am still really tired from the weekend.

Actually, I think the point was the frivolity of the "rape" language lawsuit. That, as a legal question, is apparently settled in the state of Nebraska and its corresponding federal districts as they follow state law. The plaintiff there is suing a federal district judge for following the law in her case. No matter what you may think of the decision not to allow those words in a trial in Nebraska, that decision isn't at issue here. The only issue is apparently whether the trial court should have followed the law, or let the plaintiff say what she wanted to say. If you want to overturn that law, this isn't the way to do it. Thus the conclusion that the suit is frivolous.

Thanks for weighing in on frivolous lawsuits, Ivansmom. Now, SonofCarl, do you have any further thoughts on the subject? I will say the story made me laugh.

Slate says OJ memorabilia is down in value:

http://www.slate.com/id/2174083/nav/tap1/

New kit coming in, let's see...30 mints?

Sure Joel, just kill the boodle for the next two hours so we have time for the Weingarten Chat. I haven't even done the poll yet. Let me guess, it will either be on rude bathroom practices, or hair splitting political arguments.

Jeez. I forgot it was Tuesday.

Hair splitting ethical choices. I was close.

new kit

Catching up with the boodle, coz things mostly happen when I'm asleep.

SonofCarl

That house I showed is quite far away from the big cities (in Belgium distance, probably not in Canadian distance.)
Closer to Brussels or Antwerp the prices are higher.
As a single mid 30's guy, who didn't save enough when younger, I can't get onto the property market.
So I rent an appartement. It's a nice appartment but I'd prefer having my own house.

Cur,
It's interesting how that US architecture historically handled the problem of heat differently than the old world. The houses seem different from those of the mediteranian area which have thick walls and small windows to keep the heat out.
Actually that the Mexican style is quite Mediteranian, but as far as I know in places like Virginia, Mississippi etc. that style wasn't used.