Time For the White House To Just Give Up

The Senate finally found its long-lost spine yesterday and held fast to its opposition to the Bush Administration's proposed plans to detain and try terror suspects. So if the White House is serious about bringing the men to justice quickly, and setting up a workable legal framework going forward, it should call off its legislative (and bureaucratic) dogs and sign on to the Senate plan. After five years of stalemate, it's time.

The measure offered by John McCain (R-Ariz) stands a far greater chance of being approved by the US Supreme Court than does the Administration's proposal. Moreover, the McCain-backed legislation is ready to go now-- any delay, hesitation or intransigency by the White House means no legislation at all until after the November elections, at which time the White House may actually get a worse deal than the one the Senate seems to be offering now. Time is not on the President's side and he ought to know it. Finally, there is the political reality: who do you think more Americans trust to have this issue correct? The President's men, who have delivered unto us Abu Ghraib and five years of no trials at Guantanamo Bay? Or men like Gen. Colin Powell and the aforementioned McCain?

The White House is pitching an unworkably bad idea. The Senate finally said so. There is nothing wrong with a tactical retreat after the last bullets have been fired. And with two weeks to go before the Congress adjourns, now would be a good time for that.

By Andrew Cohen |  September 15, 2006; 9:00 AM ET
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Comments

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At the onset of this war, Colin Powell chose loyalty to this admisistration over loyalty to the country. He was the one man who could have protested the ill-thought rush to war. His stature is significantly diminished due to his good-soldier mentality. While his letter of protest is now welcome, in my book, it's too little too late.

Posted by: Dave, Freeport, Il | September 15, 2006 10:06 AM

Dave, I couldn't agree with you more. However, being a soldier also allows Powell to bring a more relevant perspective I think. Bush/Cheney/Rove Co.'s arguments stink of those who've never been to war, and they should absolutely be called on it.

Posted by: Jerry, NYC | September 15, 2006 10:09 AM

I have to agree with Dave. Collin Powell could've been more forcefull. As far as McCain, I live in Arizona and I voted him for the begining but I would not vote for him again. If he would've been shot down over Iraq and caught by the terrorist, do you think he would've kept his head? I don't think so. The only vision I have is the twin towers and the soldiers lying at the side of the road, tortured and one headless.

Posted by: Art | September 15, 2006 10:28 AM

I have been waiting for Powell to reassert himself.

Posted by: Tony, Nevada City, CA | September 15, 2006 10:30 AM

Typical Liberal Reporter

Posted by: Terry Vargason | September 15, 2006 10:45 AM

Colin Powell must realize now, far too late to server the military men who were his chiefest concern, that blind service is a disservice. Even a grunt on the battlefield is expected to challenge bad orders. Even a grunt is expected to step up when ordered to lie, support torture, betray his fellows, or commit atrocities. There is no possibility Colin Powell did not know he was charging ahead with small-caliber ammunition, expending his reputation on the thinner-than-thin proposal that a mid-east occupation would be easy, brief, cheap, necessary, or welcome.

It is good to see that even those fallen from their idealistic perches can express independent views and a conscience. He is far from redeemed, but a better man this week than last.

Posted by: Bill | September 15, 2006 10:48 AM

Yes, of course, give up now or else you might win. That makes perfect sense.

Actually, from your standpoint, it does. The American people are split on this issue. A minority, consisting of liberals and wannabe liberals, wants so-called detainee rights and believes that Muslim terrorists torture Westerners because we don't sufficiently implement the Geneva conventions. The rest of the country, however, thinks John McCain is a spineless self-promoter and is not at all impressed by Colin Powell's fear that the world is beginning to doubt America's moral basis for fighting. Those Americans are also not at all unconfortable with waterboarding Osama bin Laden.

So, how do you bolster the minorty. You can't; so, instead, try to railroad the process by fabricating momentum for your side, decrying "stalemates", and claiming time is running out. Clever, but doomed to fail.

Posted by: theabcnbccbsman | September 15, 2006 10:52 AM

It is high time Colin Powell speaks out against the Lawlessness inflicted upon the nation by the bunch of bandits who have thus far governed by Deceit and Fear. Even as Powell's assertions are to rehabiltate his shattered reputation in pushing for the IRAQ war on the basis of cooked intelligence, the former soldier should hopefully be the beginning of the sea of dissent against what is arguably the biggest threat to democracy, the Bush-Cheney autocracy!

Posted by: Hans Blix | September 15, 2006 10:54 AM

You are a typical Liberal reporter. You attempt to get the White House to give up on something, in fear that they may actually win and you will lose. I know. We wouldn't want to do anything to these prisoners who tell our troops on a daily basis that they wish they could kill them. What a shame it would be if they didn't have access to a Koran or a blanket for a day. God knows, when our troops get taken captive by them, they get the same rights. Oh, no wait. Our troops get beheaded. That always seems to slip the minds of liberals.

Liberals also quote John McCain and the likes saying that "even Republicans don't like his plan". Hmm. You are referring to the same John McCain who Republicans say sold out his own party before this. You are referring to the same Senate who sold out Republicans and a majority of the LEGL citizens by passing the border bill they passed. That Senate? Yeah, again, slips liberals minds.

Posted by: Benny | September 15, 2006 10:56 AM

The White House has overplayed too many hands and Congress has just been bending over. It's time Congress listened to the American people, and the Constitution, and put this president back in his place.

Posted by: PatrickHenry | September 15, 2006 11:04 AM

Wow, so much going on. Obviously another election upon us. Wonder what will happen? Hey "conservatives" who hate "liberals", hey "liberals" who hate "conservatives"... guess what? The President, Congress, your elected leaders. etc. - they don't care about YOU! Hate each other all you want with your petty arguments. They laugh at you behind closed doors. They have contempt for your ignorance, yet need it. They have the power to help you in your daily lives, and they do NOTHING. Who's better off? You or Exxon? You or a Hollywood actor? My guess? Not you. How does that make you feel? Maybe you should direct your anger, your resentment, your questioning, somewhere else, rather than each other. Think about it. We've all been failed by our leaders in so many ways, my friends. Big time.

Posted by: Michael | September 15, 2006 11:13 AM

The one thing I find most disturbing about all of this is how Bush reacts when it becomes apparent that he is about to lose an argument or a vote. He seems to ignore the sound, principled arguments on the other side of such questions and proceeds as though opposition to him disloyal, unpatriotic and subversive.

Whenever such a vote on his Constitutional powers as President is imminent and it looks as though he might lose, he treats it almost as though it is a national crisis. He offers up the most dire, the most dangerous conseqences if he is not backed up in what he wants to do 100%, all or nothing.

He seems to have no historical perspective whatsoever. Does he not remember that a President resigned in disgrace in 1974 in the midst of a cold war with an enemy far more dangerous than the one we face now and in the wake of one of the most humiliating foreign policy disasters ever visited up on us up to that time--the Vietnam war? Does he not know that far from weakening us as a nation it strengthend us and elevated us in the eyes of the rest of the world as they witnessed the cleansing and healing effects of our magnificent federal system where the powers of each branch are checked by the others?

It is clear to me that we have a President who is less impressed by the grandeur of our federal system of divided powers than in how that system so painfully devised by our Founders checks his ambitions for a Presidential legacy. More than anything else, what I see at work here with Bush is a pathology that we have repeatedly seen throughout history when the man occupying the office of the Presidency fails to grasp that singular lesson our first President taught us: There are no Kings in America.

Bushs Constitutionally squalid behaviour while occupying that office more than justifies his impeachment.

Posted by: Jaxas | September 15, 2006 11:15 AM

This is all about a long term battle between terrorism and Democracy (the West). If we wimp out now, we will have much more terrorism on our soil and only ourselves and our wimpy politicians to blame. This is a war that will only heighten if we pull out of Iraq now, and we will be pawns of Syria and Iran. This is about America's very survival in the long term. There is no negotiating with terrrorists. Get with the issues and stop bashing Bush. That is all that Democrats know how to do, and is the reason that voters will never be sold on what they offer. They have NO concrete plans or vision for this country other than higher taxation and more government control, and to offer to negotiate with the very people that seek to destroy us and our way of life.

Posted by: reality | September 15, 2006 11:20 AM

Coommme on Benny! It isn't the liberals who act as though the world is going to crack wide open if they don't get 100% of what they want on every single thing they ask for. That describes George W. to a T!

Bush has a psychological problem with the very idea that he might lose on any question, vote or argument whatever. Remember when a reporter tried to get him to discuss what he might do if he didn't win re-election. He looked at the reporter like he had just grown another head on his shoulders. He couldn't imagine losing!

This is the big problem with Bush. He actuallt believes all of that horse sh!t that the evangelicals promote about him being infallible because he was place in office by Divine Providence. Actually it was his father's divine Supreme Court that put him in office having failed to secure a majority of his countryment.

What a loser!

Posted by: Jaxas | September 15, 2006 11:24 AM

Since when does expressing a thoughtful, yet dissenting view from that of the cabal's in power automatically make one a liberal or a sell-out? This public denigration isn't democratic debate; this is the shrill whining of cornered neofascists. It's high time that we all went back and studied the German and Italian regimes of WWII, because the parallels to the Bush administration are truly frightening. I don't like the direction this country is heading. How can anyone even think for a second that torture under any circumstance is acceptable? How can you call yourselves Christians? There is no excuse for this monstrous behavior. The majority of this citizenry is isolating itself in a cocoon of political numbness while rivaling factions of bloodthirsty religious extremists run roughshod over our constitution and international reputation. WAKE UP, AMERICA!

Posted by: Ashley Boudreaux | September 15, 2006 11:27 AM

Folks, make no mistake, this is a Republican election ploy, they are all in lock step on this issue and I'm absolutely certain they will find a convenient "compromise" right after the November election. Karl Rove has to be laughing as our MSM enablers help deploy this latest White House manufactured standoff (strategy) between the President and the Republican "rogue" Senators. This is nothing more than another Republican illusion of "Check's & Balance." Trust me, after the election, they will all get back in line pass the legislation and call it one big misunderstanding; including Powell & McCain.

Posted by: Rocky | September 15, 2006 11:29 AM

The issue at hand inolves more than just detainees - many of whom the Administration is not able to adequately charge because they picked them up with no solid evidence. It involves taking away a major component of our legal and moral heritage concerning the rights of an accused. The consistent bungling of this Administration in Iraq and Afganistan leaves no doubt that rely on them to make critical judgements about evidence and guilt will put us closer to a Soviet style government than the democracy they so much like to speak of.

Posted by: John | September 15, 2006 11:30 AM

When people use Liberal as a cuss word I have to wonder if they do their own thinking or leave that to Rush and Rove. Those who talk tough are often those who have never fought. Americans have no problem with treating terrorist badly but they do want to be sure only terrorist are the ones treated badly. This can not be done without due process. No one man should have the power to play judge, jury and executioner in a democracy. Cutting off another mans head is as bad as gang raping a 14 year old girl and then killing her and her family. Executing innocent civilians we are suppose to be liberating is perhaps on the same level also. I would bet that Benny could be made to confess to anything after 5 years of torture. The British tried these same things and often destroyed innocent Irish families. To become evil does not beat evil. It only adds to it. If you are immune from punishment for torturing anyone it would seem that you would torture everyone. By all means lets give the terrorists what they want. Lets become terrorists!

Posted by: Peter | September 15, 2006 11:34 AM

Hogswallow reality. You have gotten yourself drunk on the rancid kool aid Bush is peddling.

In "reality" there is no war on terror. The terrorists were here long before there was even an America and they will be around long after we have either collapsed or been absorbed into the next step in societal evolution. Terror is like murder, or rape, or larsceny. It exists as part of the human condition and it is the mark of an advanced civilization that they use the arts and mechanisms of a civilized society in dealing with it.

Look at how Israel has been trying to rid itself of terrorism for over half a century and tell me that war has solved their problems. The notion that we are in a WWII-like struggle for survival against a Hitlerian enemy is a concoction of the PNAC who have been fairly itching for another long term war to further their own ideological aims.

Believe me, when the Soviet Union fell, the ideologues who form much of Bush's support for this insanity were crestfallen and immediatly cast themselves about for another monolith enemy.

Posted by: Jaxas | September 15, 2006 11:37 AM

The people President Bush is talking about are enemy combatants caught in terrorist acts, and not U.S. citizens. Why does anyone think they deserve a civilian trial, and the same priviliges as a U.S. citizen?

The rules of evidence and the legal procedures used in the U.S. would probably result in the release of these insane, murderous, terrorists so they could repeat their campaign of murder of innocent people all over the world.

Are they innocent? No, they were caught in the act.

This is one more example of the Congress, and even some Republicans, wanting so badly to take some revenge on President Bush that they put the rights of terrorists above the safety of Americans all over the world.

I don't know how these misguided members of Congress can sleep at night knowing they are taking the side of our enemies. They do not understand we are in a war not of our own making.

Posted by: Arthur | September 15, 2006 11:56 AM

Those who support Bush's philosophy on this issues should contemplate the outcome. How would they like to be thrown in jail, then tried for whatever, but not be told why they are guilty "because it is secret"? Who are the Fascists in this picture.

Bush has used the "it's a secret" ploy once too often. It was bad enough to setup wiretaps without court approval "because it is secret", but then we have secret torture and now he wants to try people with "secret" evidence. Enough is enough - we are the laughingstock of the world right now - it is time to get our pride and morality back!

Posted by: limey | September 15, 2006 12:00 PM

So the Right is showing their true face, blatantly demonstrating that they are no better than the terrorists. They are willing to abduct torture, imprison indefinitely and execute people based on secret or no evidence. Apparently if they hadn't been installing and propping up the evil men like Osama, the Shah of Iran and Saddam in the first place to do their dirty work they would have gladly done it themselves. It is true the similarity between the Bush regime and fascists of the past is frightening. Why don't we just throw out the Constitution now because it clearly is not what Bush is fighting for. It is amazing how for years during the cold war the USSR was kept at Bay with all of their technology, yet BushCo proclaims that he can't keep us safe from box cutter-wielding individuals. Sounds like an admission of incompetence to me.

Posted by: appaledbytheright | September 15, 2006 12:13 PM

That's just the problem these are not just terrorists caught in the act. How do you even know if they are a terrorist without due process? Aren't you aware of the innocent citizens of our allies that have been in the wrong place at the wrong time and have accidentally been imprisoned indefinitely and even tortured? How can we justify torturing terrorists if we behave like terrorists?

Posted by: wheresthesanity | September 15, 2006 12:20 PM

"It is good to see that even those fallen from their idealistic perches can express independent views and a conscience. He is far from redeemed, but a better man this week than last."

So true. It's all well and good to say that Powell should have spoken up earlier. But at least he's not holding to a demonstrably wrong view out of stubbornness. I would rather have my politicians wake up, learn something, and admit they were wrong than to blindly follow a destructive path to prove a point.

Posted by: KFJ | September 15, 2006 01:30 PM

Hear, hear, Jaxas!

"Bush's Constitutionally squalid behaviour while occupying that office more than justifies his impeachment."

Beautifully said.

Posted by: KFJ | September 15, 2006 01:48 PM

The big problem with the entire Bush adminstration -- and much of the Republican-controlled Congress -- is that not enough of them went to Vietnam.

The Bush guys like to swagger and talk tough, but none of them participated in the defining military conflict of their generation. They didn't experience the horror, the gruesomeness, and the abuse of power -- in short, the whole obscenity of Vietnam -- because they found all sorts of class-based tricks for getting out of service.

Then, these monsters of very little brain think they're really clever because they strategize to beat real American heroes like Max Cleland right out of the Congressional seats they earned the right to serve in.

I can't believe that rank-and-file American soldiers appreciate being deployed by a bunch of idiots who wouldn't know a Marine expeditionary force from a Memorial Day parade. And I have a strong feeling that all the "stop bashing Bush" posters out there are are just about as inexperienced militarily as our clueless leaders.

Posted by: KFJ | September 15, 2006 02:02 PM

Jaxas, you are a riot. How long have you been living with Mommy, and what form of drugs are you smoking?
Shakes ones head.
Amazing. Simply amazing.
Is this the type of world what our WWII veterans fought for? Yes, sadly it is.
Why don't you go over to Iraq, Iran, Syria, of other "free thinking" society and voice your views and see how long you will stay alive?
If Democrats are ever going to amount to anything, they need to get over this insane hatred of Bush.
Oh well, looking at the demographics of Democrats to Republican families having newborn babies in this country and it's only a matter of time before Democrats will be a distant memory.

Posted by: reality | September 15, 2006 04:43 PM

I love all this playing of the "liberal" card. Since when did Powell, McCain, Lindsey Graham or John Warner become liberals?

Posted by: salempoor | September 15, 2006 05:09 PM

Isn't it interesting that in America we believe in liberty and justice for all, but the only value the neocons try to promote internationally is liberty. Why is it that we never hear anyone in this administration talk about justice and due process? Apparently, these bedrock American principles are only the concern of wimpy liberals.

Posted by: pspiv | September 15, 2006 05:54 PM

A good story. Watch Democracry Now, Liberty News, INN, on Free Speech TV... You'll find answers to these questions: Why do other countries hate America so? What is the real agenda behind our current (and past) foreign policy? What is the secret world govenernment, and who is part of it, and what is its agenda? What is the the relationship between the CIA, the bin laden family, the Bush family, Afganisan, the Oil companies, the energy companies, the telecommunications industry, the owners of the TV, Radio systems in the world, and the national Democratic and Repulic parties, and the secret government? hehehehe. Really its true, although don't talk about it to much, raise your head too high, or you'll be on one of the lists. Yup, they have lists... and just because you sound like a conspiracy nut, doesn't mean you are a nut, or that there is no conspiracy. There is my friend... and its diabolical. Copy this, and see how long it takes before its erased. hehehehe.

Posted by: An Angel | September 15, 2006 06:00 PM

From my viewpoint, President Bush has made all the right decisions, followed the advice of all the right advisors, and shown the wisdom of an experienced foreign policy expert. Why shouldn't we blindly follow him again when he says he "knows best".

Posted by: Ron V | September 15, 2006 06:07 PM

What I find to be absolutely reprehensible is that Republicans that support this president get really offended and defensive when the truth about him is exposed. When challenged, Bush reveals his true nature and it is a very ugly and dark one. This man is true evil and I am doing everything I can to change the balance of power in Congress to Democratic hands. Why? Because I want subpoena power. Once we have subpoena power, we can hold hearings, investigate the oil companies profits, dispose of incredibly bad legislation like the Bankruptcy Bill, the Patriot Act, the Medicare drug bill, and hold the Bush Crime family to account for the warrantless wiretapping, torture insecret prisons, violation of the oath of office in national security concerns (financial, military, etc.) truly investigate 9/11 and find out what many of us already know. That Bush, Cheney, Rove, and the PNAC be it directly or indirectly financed our own attack. Do you honestly think that this attack happened in September by coincidence? It practically gives the Republicans an emotional heartstring to tug on when they need to, so they can once again dupe the American public and wrap themselves in the flag claim the other side is against getting the people we were attacked by and paint themselves as ultra-Patriotic questioning the patriotism of those that dont fall in line. This is just sick. Its enough to make one move to Canada, the UK or Europe, but I wont be made to leave my country. My sword is drawn and I'm taking it back from these so called religious, homoerotic fascists! These people need to be led from the seats of American government in irons to be impeached and tried for treason.

Posted by: jjkoriyama | September 15, 2006 06:10 PM

It amazes me how the people on the right keep comparing US treatement of detainees with muslim terrorists' and dictators' treatement of their prisoners. We are not them and you are plain WRONG to hold us to their standards. We are a civilized nation and we are a signatory to Geneva convnetion, and in my opinion it makes on difference whether the enemy wears a uniform or not and is a signatory of geneva convention or not. We should uphold the Geneva convention rules regarding POW regardless of what kind of war we are figthing. Otherwise it is like saying that because the enemy is evil so it is okay for us to be evil.

Posted by: | September 15, 2006 06:22 PM

I see a number of accusations above using the word "liberal." Apparently, the words 'liberal' and 'conservative' have lost all meaning in the mealy mouths of some.

A 'conservative' used to stand for a literal interpretation of the Constitution, the agreement by which the American people created and sustain the Republic.

Today, so-called 'conservatives' back Bush on imprisoning Americans without trial, putting Americans in solitary confinement for years without charge, massive spying without warrants, entering into a successful propaganda campaign which tricked over 70% of the American people into believing we were attacked by Iraq on 9/11, thereby bullying Congress into giving one man (and a stupid one at that) the power to declare war, intimidating and threatening judges, refusing over 400 times (or is it over 800 times? - either way, the number boggles the mind) to enforce U.S. law (the chief purpose of the Chief Executive under the Constitution), attempting to subvert the separation of church and state, using his whacko interpretation of the Bible to justify war and torture and lies and corruption, attempting to rule by whim and "gut feel" (the ultimate refuge of the brainless), ending the rule of law in the United States, needlessly killing over 2600 American soldiers, reducing their families to eternal misery, needlessly killing over 30,000 innocent Iraqi citizens by his own admission (put at over 100,000 by others actually doing the counting), lying to us about everything from global warming to the deficit to the death rate in Baghdad last month, and on and on and on.

It's obvious that Bush's crimes are true High Crimes And Misdemeanors, not some put-up job involving consensual sex between adults and cigars. Bush's crimes are the crimes against which we went to war in 1775. Bush's crimes are the crimes against which our Constitution and Bill Of Rights were specifically written. What an irony that once upon a time, so-called "conservatives" tried to pervert the Constitution in order to destroy a President, and now in the name of loyalty to a moron, can't remember that the Constituion even exists.

Washington reminded us to put Country above party. Those that can't do that should be ashamed of themselves. And should be treated with the contempt they deserve as traitors to the Constitution, to We The People, and to the Republic.

I'm a Constitutional Conservative. I will no longer tolerate the use of the word 'conservative' to cloak traitors like those above. I will no longer tolerate traitors wrapping themselves in the American flag in order to perpetrate their treachery against us. Time to name Bush and his lackeys and his supporters as the Benedict Arnolds of our generation. Time to have impeachment, trial, and execution of sentence on all who stand against the Constitution and the Republic.

Posted by: Jerry Kelly | September 15, 2006 06:25 PM

If being a liberal means questioning: the use of torture and inhumane tactics against people who have not had benefit of legal representation and due process of constitutional law; the ill-advised quest of "democratizing" a sovereign state with no proven ties to 9-11 and murdering thousands of innocent civilians and our own men and women during the process to achieve a questionable end, call me a liberal. If liberal means standing up for the moral and ethical premises this great country was founded on, call me a liberal! I wear the title proudly. Wake up America, our entire way of life is threatened not only by those who flew the planes into the World Trade Center, but also by our own government who would deny us our hard-won freedoms and have reduced our standing in the world to a rogue nation bent on imposing the President and his administration's agenda at any cost. Men and Women of honor are speaking out as they must! Both Republicans and Democrats - soliders who have seen the horror of war and its consequences. Join them, put an end to this lunacy.

Posted by: an American citizen | September 15, 2006 06:28 PM

The only purpose of this legislation is to try and protect the current neocon's / Bush administration from being indicted and tried for war crimes related to the Iraq War (should the Dems regain control of the House- which they should).

Hopefully we'll see some meaningful impeachment proceedings of Cheney & Rumsfeld come 2007.

Posted by: time for a change | September 15, 2006 06:38 PM

Its time Republicans, REAL Republicans understand that they need to join with us and vote Democrat to turn over this congress and impeach this Bush Crime Family. Only after we get our back, should they consider voting Republican again but maybe this time they will pay closer attention to WHO they are voting for that wears GOP label. Save the American Republic first and then restore your party from within.

Posted by: jjkoriyama | September 15, 2006 06:42 PM


The nazis on this forum who are defending torture will have a rude awakening when the next nuremberg trials take place. After the conviction and hanging of the torturers there will be no yakazuni shrine. Instead we could dump them in a depleted uranium grave so the reich mourners can show piety by wearing radiation badges.

Posted by: oystercatcher | September 15, 2006 06:51 PM

It is truly a shame when our congress is willing to impeach a man for getting some extra on the side(while doing his job no less) yet forgo even the mention of impeachment of a man who has repeatedly lied, decieved and terrorized his own people for 5 years. His actions have not only been ILLEGAL but morally reprehensible, especially in the eyes of christians of any denomination. To use your religious beliefs in place of the Constitutional law that was designed to safegaurd this country is reason enough to be impeached. To use false evidence and fictitious connections to redirect military actions is reason enough to be impeached. To maliciously alter the election system through illegal means of funding, fear-based propaganda, and intimidating partisanship is reason enough to be impeached. I could go on and on of the many various and extensive reasons to impeach this ignorant, misguided, fascist president, but I'll leave those for someone else to use.

George W. Bush is an embarassment to this nation. The history books will have a singular interpretation for a few years but in due time the truth of this administration's actions and policies will come out and all those who supported him in his head-long rush to have a legendary administration will be dumbfounded and most likely do everything they can to put distance between them.

Posted by: Evan from Toledo,OH | September 15, 2006 06:55 PM

when will the government get past republicans and democrats?? They spen all day fighitng with each other for power in the government, what bill will get passed which to change, should we vote with the pesident or against him? it's insane!! when the people of this country realize what is really going on up there in washington is when we will see decisions being made that will actually help us as americans. as it stands now we are losing respect as a country as a whole, we are losing lives fighting in wars that may have been avoidable, we are losing jobs over seas and across borders. We are the people who need to change these things. I am 24 years old and it is my generation who is going to suffer most from what is going on right now. when I'm 40 is there going to be an America?? I'm not so sure, at the rate bush is going half the world is going to want us blown off the map. But I'm not just bashing bush, democrats are no better b/c as soon as they take office next election, and it will happen, they are just going to keep making things worse. Too many politicians think they know what is best for the country and by the time all of their ideas make it into reality they are so distorted that no one wants to accept them. we are doomed !!

Posted by: john | September 15, 2006 06:58 PM

He reality, What's up.
The first and only item that all of us has to wonder about is mentally, We have a political system that has been bought!
If you have not the funds, you to become "colladeral damage."
The domination for the worlds resourses has started. We have the capacity to NUKE our "Freedom speech" into every household.
Let's "NUKE" the world and seperate everyone later.
Foolish Mortals!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: George | September 15, 2006 07:02 PM

How can you tell when Bush is lying? Only when his mouth is moving.

Posted by: sarah | September 15, 2006 07:13 PM

At the same time that Colin Powell spoke out, there was a letter from several retired military officers that also rejected Bush's proposal. There is no winning in Iraq. We will leave that country with nothing to show for it but the loss of thousands of soldiers lives. All the spin on the "war on terror" will not change the inevitable outcome in Iraq.

Posted by: Bronot | September 15, 2006 07:28 PM

Well, after going through the articles here, I see theres a fight for idealogy
- Republican vs Democrats. Shouldn't it be the analysis of the effects that this act of amendment will have on people. Shouldn't we try to analyse the history and see if the agression has ever led to victory, or being very humble really helped nations to thrive, or it had been the balance of both that had been good for nations and helped people of that era to have a civilised society and peacful lives.

I would say instead of fighting among us, we should try to get the solution with cooperation from all of us.
I am very sure none of us like to be illogical or even cruel or to be called
bad. And that none of us really love the terrorists; I am very sure we all be
in same voice if a person is proved guilty and voice would be to punish him or her; we may differ on how, but we all like a guilty to be punished.

So why are we fighting or arguing here for? We are fighting here because we
see the situation from two prospectives:

1) we see that the new rules will mainly be used only for terrorists and will mostly be used in good faith. We see that we need to be more stronger and tough dealing with those terrorists. We see that theres a man out there who hates us like anything and given a chance he will kill us, so for our own survival we should eleminate him before he get that chance. And for this we are ready to compromise a little part of our freedom by giving more power to military and let them deal in more practical way.

2) We see that there will be more abuse of these new rules, government will use it to harash innocents, this will put most of the citizens into everydays' terror, terror from those in power, you will always be afraid to express your thoughts freely, because you have no protection against those in power. These rules may not cause this immediately but over time they will gradualy evolve to take this form, and that unknowingly we are slowly moving towards the system from where our forefathers have taken us out by continiously shedding their bloods. And that, now at least we are a little safe when within America, but over the time due to these rules even America will not be a safe and free place to live.

Lets try to analyse and understand both the views, lets take up the first view
- I completely agree with the view we need to be more strong and tough dealing
with fanatics and terroists. But are we guranteed that these rules will actually make us more strong or tough or practical? Are these rules really leading us to the path where we will be in a position of eleminating all those people who hate us? or we will actually end up creating many more such people.
The people who are with us and may be they don't love us, but are indifferent to us, but once tortured they will surely start hating us, and a single person is always connected to hundreds of other people who care and love that person, if you torture or make that one person hate you, you are actually creating a chain reaction of hatred for you, from those hundred connected to that person and other thousands connected to those hundred and so on...
Try to imagine you are giving power to the same people who on few situations have shown to abuse it, such as in Abu Gharib. Would you like to take that much of risk of introducing an irreversible process of transfering your freedom to military, remember the current President may not be in power tomorrow, and you may not know how the people tomorrow in power may be.

Try to refer the situations you have been in your life - if you make a single person your enemy or dislike you say at work, you will always be afraid of that person being promoted or getting a higher position, because that would be a problem for your progress. Just imagine if you have 2-3 such people at work, will you ever be productive? or most of your time will go on playing politics and in generating negative energy and bad thoughts? even if you are successful in somehow getting promotion and make those people leave company did you really do anything useful or something on which you can feel proud on?

Now imagine you make people near you your friends, they like you; you would always feel good to go to office, discuss about things you like, think about how to improve things at work or product you are working on, the solution would be more focused on solving the purpose rather than proving you point or showing your involvement. Believe me I had gone through both type of situations and I really enjoyed my time and had been many many times more productive in the second situation where people are friendly to each other.

Well, I am a little short of time, so would like to discuss the second point later but just to summarise, what I would like to say is lets not think or put up more of our energy in a negative way to create more enemy because of agression, since as per history, agression has always created an environment of hatred and ultimately the collapse of society, rather lets spread the love and friendliness that has made America, a nation where people live, not just exist.
Lets be more responsible and try to comeup with solutions where instead of millions of people hating and thinking about strategies to eleminate America, would love to be friends of America and like to keep America in their hearts.

Posted by: Nitin | September 15, 2006 07:32 PM

Frankly, those who do not fight "honorably" cannot expect to be treated honorably, which was why, in past wars, spies/covert soldiers were summarily tried and executed when caught behind enemy lines. If any terrorist is caught on the battlefield committing an act contrary to the definitions of a soldier, he/she do not deserve habeas corpus, full American Justice and hell, my tax dollars in his/her defense. Those who argue for a utopian system, where liberals coddle jihadists and offer them tenure appointments at Ivy League colleges, are doing so in flagrant disregard of the rights of the majority of Americans, many like me, who demand swift and deadly justice for all terrorists, foreign or domestic.

Posted by: Harry Lee | September 15, 2006 07:51 PM

When I reflect on the bombing of the Murrah Building in OKC with a death toll of about 200 in our state of 3.5 million, I remember how devastated we all were. It seemed that every family had either lost a family member, a friend, an acquiantance or had gone to OKC to help with the cleanup and care of those affected. I then think of the devastation our military unloaded on Iraq. In a country about 7 times the size OK we created a death toll among civilians of 150 times (Bush estimate of 30,000 dead) to 500 times (John Hopkin professor estimate of 100,000 using statistical methods). The persons there (who are still alive but perhaps injured)who have lost a loved one or loved ones due to our "liberation" must be almost everyone who is left. When I then think of the recruitment possibilities for Osama among the survivors, I know the Bush so called war on terror has done more to recruit terrorists than to eliminate them. The bloodshed continues, and since we now occupy the place and we are expected to keep the peace, we continue get credit for the additional death and chaos. We will probably refer to the next generation of terrorists as the Bush bombing babies.

Posted by: okie | September 15, 2006 07:52 PM

Reality:
Why don't you actually try to dispute the points that Jaxas is putting forth instead of simply reverting to insults. That's the mark of a pesron who has no opinion. The one little argument you try to put forth is flawed.

"Is this the type of world what our WWII veterans fought for?"
- See, here you entirely missed the point. The whole point of the "liberal" argument is that Bush & Co. are stooping to the lower level and throwing out every belief that our WWII soldiers fought and died for. They are the ones disgracing their memories.

"Why don't you go over to Iraq, Iran, Syria, of other "free thinking" society and voice your views and see how long you will stay alive?"

- This is COMPLETELY beside the point. It doesn't matter how they run their country or how we would be treated over there. We live by values and morals that makes our county as great as it is. We have to live by and act out the very rules we set for others to act. Bush claims that he wants to spread democracy, but he doesn't want to act as such. He is a disgrace to our country. There is very good reason to hate Bush and his cronies.

Posted by: J | September 15, 2006 07:55 PM

I love how Conservatives like to toss around the label "liberal" as if were a derogatory word. So how about a test?

How would they classify the following person:

1. Allowed the Federal deficit to reach record highs without vetoing even one spending bill.

2. Created the first new entitlement program in over 40 years.

3. Is in favor of amnesty for illegal immigrants to allow them to remain in the U.S.

Get the picture Conservatives? Your exhaulted leader is a Liberal in Conservative clothing.

Posted by: RJV | September 15, 2006 08:04 PM

When readers give a knee-jerk response such as "typical liberal...", I always think: "typical mindless wingnut"

Posted by: Greg Roth | September 15, 2006 08:12 PM

".....We have to live by and act out the very rules we set for others to act.....". Noble aspiration indeed, now let's see you don a hippie outfit and we'll get you a airticket to Darfur (i.e. one way would suffice), where you can peddle your flower power views to the extremists, little darlings all of them. In fact, it should read ".....We have to die by.....", because the terrorists are relying precisely on these idealistic traits of the US to perpertrate these crimes against humanity. Why do Hezbollah use civilians as human shields? For the obvious reason that any attack on them will result in collateral damages deemed unacceptable by Western standards. If Israel did not retaliate, do you think Hezbollah will raise their arms and embrace the Jews in relief and goodwill. I would rather receive worldwide condemnation and rebuke than to be blown to bits, burned alive, beheaded....and etc.

Posted by: Harry Lee | September 15, 2006 08:17 PM

So much vile and hatred! Is this what Your God wants from you. Can't We be better than our enemies without becoming like them. To continue on a path of violence will not attain the Peace that everyone hopes and prays for.

To debate the political affiliations of each other is senseless. We elect our representatives to guide this country with our best interest for the people as a whole and not for the minority special interest( business/industries)

Our government has failed its people. Look around at our poverty and homelessness. War is not helping anyone. It is not the means to an end. We are being lead by immoral pharocies who wallow in their piety while the people are suffering. Damn them all for their failure.

Posted by: Anthony | September 15, 2006 08:20 PM

ask any of those who want give right to those body who are found dead in streets of iraq have our dogooder rights thinkers tell those in mass graves who went with peace offing to emenmy in any war ask them to speak up this is not war over their its fools a scrificeing the brain washed martry's 2006 washed washtoionens ostriches when they want kill you dose not matter if your already brain dead take our rites to bagdad and see how long you live sure the ememy want our Last rites over your geneva dead body in korea they still binging in sckulls of those GI they can't up name on they enomy took 7000 gi marched them noth nr ever seen again cause they belived giving ups geneva was gone save them we beived we say out world wa 1&2 they came to our doors they will comr me again be the first to welcome them who hate your guts you will get your rites full they are proffessional killers hell we have high scholl full of want to be fighters found with gun join us foreign legion bet guns disspear or enlistment be higher wheniwas kid it was first time intru ouble local c sherrif c gave chose jai or join army or marines that day iwas lst in army to have been drafted lots sheriffs out as enlistment offices

Posted by: us army vet Ernest Durston | September 15, 2006 08:27 PM

From the time I was old enough to vote, I have never pledged allegiance to any particular party. After the past 6 years of Bush, I can honestly say that I am absolutely disgusted with the Republican Party. There has not been one single positive accomplishment from this administration that will benefit the average American. The damage done to our country and abroad will take decades to repair...if at all possible. How bad do things have to get, both in the U.S. and abroad before the American public realize that our President and his administration are not only criminals, but have pushed the Middle East to the brink of disaster. Illegally invading Iraq under deceitful pretenses and attempting to enforce our form of government have turned out to be more of a miscarriage than "Mission Accomplished". American generals are now saying Iraq is on the brink of civil war. Anyone looking from the outside in would think we were a nation of idiots. The same president who thinks stem cell research is murder, feels that the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians is a wonderful and progressive march towards democracy. There are many adjectives that will be used when looking back on this President ten years from now...Impotent, ignorant, self-serving, murderous, and the list could go on and on. He has reinvented the term "Fascist" and now when I think of his party, that is the first description that comes to mind. Democrats vs. Fascists...Let's not even discuss Katrina and its aftermath...

Posted by: Russ | September 15, 2006 08:30 PM

I don't care whether you're republican or democrat or green or whig or bull moose. It's irrelevant what political party you're in or whether you lean liberal or conservative.

In the end, regardless of what you may think, the only people who in the end are responsible for whatever atrocities have been committed aren't the politicians, aren't the media, and aren't the big business tycoons. They are the American citizens.

Without us, none of this would have ever happened, none of "them" would ever be in power. We gave them that power willingly, and now we face the consequences. Whether you voted one way or the other, it doesn't matter. This is our fault as a people.

We can remove an inept leader or even government, but as long as a significant portion of the population are just as inept as those whom we denounce, whoever they are, these problems will come back, again and again, and we'll never get anywhere.

Thinking that getting rid of the inept leaders will solve everything would be like thinking that you can kiss a broken bone to make it better.

For example: If you impeach George Bush, you'd have President Cheney, and he'd be able to run for re-election. If you impeach them both, there's someone else who'd take over and do the same thing. You'd have to go through ten-something presidents before you found someone who was different. The senate deliberations for that could easily take decades.

On the other hand, if you just wait for two years, you'll have a chance to be rid of the whole lot of them. Then charge them for crimes against humanity if you must.

The point is, is that if people don't wise up in America, no, the world, this will never stop.

It doesn't matter what ideology or religion you follow, all you have to do is think for yourself. Everyone in this world is capable of better judgment. Follow leaders, but question them, doubt them, because nobody is perfect. Nobody.

I am an American, and I will stay here unless there is no other choice. There is nowhere in the world where things like this are really better. I've researched it, and the problem is global.

If people are fools, then they make foolish choices, choose foolish leaders, and are led by them into folly.

Posted by: bizarcasm | September 15, 2006 08:53 PM

The President has lost the moral high ground to the extent that he ever had it. He fails to make argument on principal but rather makes arguments on short term expediency rather than principle. McCain, Powell, Warner and others are seasoned military professionals who know that as soon as you start redefining the rules of war your putting your soldier's at RISK. It may not help short term fighting terrorists, but what about when we have a disagreement with China? or even Mexico?

Bush talks about rule of law, if he doesn't practice what he preaches then America will have hell to pay. He's already damaged our reputation, but when he says that the Geneva Convention puts our interrogators at risk for war crimes, that tells me he hasn't been playing by the rules.

When he decides who is protected by the Geneva Convention and who is not; when he decides, rather than established case practice and international treaty, what is torture and what is not, then he is givent that right to every chief executive and wanna be dictator. Thank god, in America, we have a system of checks and balances to stop him from putting every American in danger because when we do not focus on the Geneva Protections we have no grounds to demand that others do so. If Bush had more respect for the Military he would understand this.

That doesn't justify what the Terrorists have done in my mind, but it sure will in theirs and in the minds of many who might otherwise have had some doubts. When America doesn't take the moral high ground, we've got nothing but the power of our weapons. That will never be enough.

The only difference between Bush Republicans (who have no military experience) and liberal democrats (who have no military experience) is that the latter at least have the sense not to want to use it to settle every disagreement. If your going to use the military then you should at least listen to military expertise instead of trying to tell them how to play the game. Bush doesn't understand how to win the war, much less how to win the peace.

That does not mean that the Democrats would do better. They are less likely to use the military when we actually need to do so. But right now the rebel republicans hold the moral high ground. Bushes arguments from weapons of mass destruction to need to torture to get information show that he needs to go back and read some basic ethics books. He might even find the Bible would give him some insights if he read it directly rather than having it interpreted by his "friends" on the right. God is not pleased by people who fight dirty. If I read the Koran right, neither is Allah. It's time people of faith from both religions start telling deviants to straighten up. I hope your listening Mr. President. You may be able to keep much from the American people but God IS WATCHING YOU.

Posted by: ORB | September 15, 2006 08:53 PM

I have come to the conclusion that no matter who is in charge of congress or who is the president,that nothing will change. we will still be fighting somewhere in the world, and that there will never be peace in the middleast, and there will always be groups that want to destroy us. and congress will always be arguing with each other. If I ever win the lottery I'm going to move to the Federated States of Microneasa in the Pacific Ocean and sit on the beach and enjoy life

Posted by: Harold | September 15, 2006 09:04 PM

I believe the point is not who's a liberal or who's conservative but rather a point of morality. The simple truth is that it is definitely not morally right to subject prisoners to torture during imprisonment, even though history has taught us that this happens on a regular basis. It is not the act itself that is important here but rather a simple question "To fight terrorist does it mean that we have to descend to their level ?"

If so, then I believe the next act of the Administration would be to just buy airtime on CNN, bring out the meat-cleavers and show the extremists that Americans have sharper cleavers than they do.

Posted by: Jeffrey | September 15, 2006 09:08 PM

Americans have the the fundamental right to argue with each other. But at a time in history when we have more access to information and knowledge, our grasp of common sense is diminishing. Maybe we didn't have much to begin with in the first place. We are indeed a young country. But our first real action should be to stop dishonoring ourselves by being quick to throw insults at each other. It is okay to right with your heart. Just don't leave your head behind and vice versa.

Were we justified in going after Saddam Hussien? I would have to say yes. I think there's evidence to support that. However, and this is where most fall behind, he's not the only one to defy and threaten the United States. Yet he's the only one we really went for. He's also not the only one to torture his own people, either.

Whether this new piece of legislation for interrogation methods and trial provisions is a ploy or not remains to be seen. The only way this country will remain "United" is by adhering to the principles set forth be our Founding Fathers, and they didn't prescribe to the idea of manifest destiny when they volunteered to sacrifice their lives for this thing called freedom. If our government goes on record as backing any form of torture or injustice, no matter how small or insignificant, then our credibility as fellow citizens of this planet will amount to nothing. That old saying that two wrongs don't make a right may sound corny and unhip, but it's still right.

And as for this President, I will say this. I didn't like only having either him or Kerry to choose from in the last election. I profess to be a Christian, not a Democrat or a Republican, not a Liberal or a Conservative, just a Christian. And I can say this with the unmost certainty - Bush will stand before God, of whom he proclaims to serve, and he will be judged. He will be held responsible for what he has done with his life.

If we don't like the way he is acting as a President, then we need to remove him from that position, of which I think him to be manipulative and unconcerned. But if we don't do anything that we have the power to do, then it is our loss as a nation. We need to encourage each other to elect leaders that will make a stronger and good hearted nation that we can pass down to our children - a nation where we push each other by argument and challenge, a nation where we can act with the authority and compassion that comes from liberty and justice, a nation that finds it's righteousness, however much it can hold, through voluntary service to our fellow human being.

All we have to do, as individuals only, is to choose it.

Posted by: Gaijin | September 15, 2006 09:17 PM

Freedom of speech in the US. Really? Whatever happenned to Peter Jennings under the Bush administration?

Posted by: GregB | September 15, 2006 09:43 PM

I am just an old woman but I am really tired of this administration. I guess because they remind me of little kids. They say we're not going to talk to them (Iran, Hamas or anyone they don't like) Then they threaten them with sanctions because they aren't like us. Smart kids do the opposite. They buy goods from them and eventually the bully's don't want to lose us because they like our money. So instead of spending money for nothing we get something out of it.
Perhaps it is time for a woman to kick some butt down in Washington.

Posted by: Grandma | September 15, 2006 09:58 PM

So far the only war this administration has waged with anything amounting to success is the war against gay families.
These Republican Theocrats were placed into power by an agenda of hate disguised as morality with the aim of denying people rights. I can't say I'm entirely surprised or unhappy that the administration is about to go down in disgrace under the bright light of scrutiny.
The Bush administration has lived up to the principles that it was founded on, secret deals, political back-scratching, contempt for the apethetic majority that empowers them.
When you empower an agenda of hate and injustice, don't be surprised when you get the Orwellian nightmare of a Government we're saddled with now.
It's now a thought-crime to speak against our leadership. Our government embraces clandestine prisons, the "disappearing" of enemies, torture and serves disinformation to the public via the media it is trying its best to control.
Welcome to America "Under God"...seig heil baby.

Posted by: Dale Crowe | September 15, 2006 10:00 PM

Kudos to all the people who can state a good case. The case is one of honor and humanity. The values of the U.S. have, since it's inception, been that of honor and caring for the liberty and freedom of each and every individual-whether citizen or not-who stands foot in this nation and in all nations. We have been the protector of civil rights through the Civil war to the Cold War, or so we have all been educated to believe. Despite the outrages in Central America throughout the 'Regime change' era that took place through the 50's to 80's, and some other tough stuff that has played out over our recent history, we as Americans still feel that there has always been an underlying belief that our constitution was valid. That we held some type of moral ground (blinded though we may be) and that we held some measure of liberty and a banner to those less fortunate souls who in the world were striving and seeking that. If this Administration is allowed to condone torture as a means to subjugate the least of our brethren, then they have subjugated us as well. And if this is to be so, then we are and will be only a click away from being those detained prisoners shakled in the cell, left to the rodents and cockroaches to feed upon as we are waterboarded into submission. If freedom, democracy, liberty and the Bill of Rights mean anything then it must base itself in the purest sense of humanity. This should be the highest moral ground upon which we stand. This is the high ground that we, the U.S. and the American people must stand. To be light bearers or not? that is the question.

The current Bush tactics seems to have nose dived into the pits of Hades, and will lead us to be swept away in the murky and tumultuous waters of the river Styx, stained with the blood and deciet of man fallen. So much for his Christian sense of humanity.

Posted by: Steve | September 15, 2006 10:15 PM

Typical liberal, Cohen. Why would you so frequently want to think our Commander-in-Chief is wrong? Is it because he's a Republican? These captured terrorists are prisoners of war, and they don't deserve trials. They should be held, as captured enemy combatants (in fact they are illegal combatants, not deserving of any rights whatsoever) for as long as the war lasts and their "side" surrenders. Would you like to refute that, Constitutionally? Please try, make yourself sound absurd.

Posted by: sbourg55 | September 15, 2006 10:21 PM

I am a republican who is going to vote for the democrats in this next election, and in the election after that, several years from now. My reasons for dissatisfaction with the current republican party centers around Bush. But I believe that Bush is only the symptom of a much larger problem.

There is supposed to be a separation of church and state in this country; and the republican party has repeatedly blurred, and in some cases obliterated that distinction, by their constant association with the religious right. This is supposed to be a democracy - NOT a theocracy. I voted for a republican president - NOT for Jerry Farwell, Pat Robertson, Jesse Jackson, or any of the others who seem to be determining national policy. And yet what I see in the White House, does not seem that different from the theocracy in Iran and other places. In both cases I see political lip service to the offices of elected government officials, and an attempt to create law that amounts to state sponsored religion.

The president's policy on stem cell research has added to my dissatisfaction with Bush in particular, and the republican party in general. This research is too important to be left in the hands of bible thumping zealots, or presidents who support them.

Bush proved himself incompetent on Iraq, during the first months of the war, when he refused to send enough soldiers to accomplish the job of winning the peace. He went against the advice of respected military leaders when he did so, and in my opinion, this is one reason why the war has dragged on this long.

He proved himself incompetent on the domestic front, during hurricanes Katrina and Rita. While it is true that the poor state of preparedness for these disasters can be traced through several administrations, including the Clinton administration, this does not excuse Bush for his personal failure and lack of leadership.

The hydrogen economy he once promised is a joke. A true hydrogen economy is so far off in the future, that creating national policy for it now amounts to doing nothing - while giving the appearance that progress is being made. In fact? Nothing is changed, and nothing gets done, except more "studies" of a technology that will not be available for the next 50 to 100 years. In reality? It's an excuse for the oil industries to conduct business as usual, and not worry so much about alternative fuels.

Meanwhile, places like Brazil have created an ethanol economy, and fuel flex cars there are able to run on any combination of alcohol or gasoline. In Brazil, more than half of all fuel pumps are either pure alcohol, or some alcohol and gasoline mixture. Although there are about 6 million fuel flex cars in America, there are only about 500 alcohol pump stations nationwide.

Bush could be excused for his lack of vision, if it were not for his family ties with the oil industry. This to me, seems like the real scandal that should be investigated by the media - not his alleged reasons for the war in Iraq. That could be blamed on faulty intelligence; but his ties with the oil industies can not. At best that is a conflict of interest; at worst it is downright deceit.

I am not to happy with his environmental policies either.

That may sound a little strange coming from a republican, until you consider that there are many of us - especially in the south - who fish and hunt. Some of us are actually closer to the land than some of you "tree hugging liberals". As a matter of fact? We are close enough to the land to see some of the effects of environmental change first hand.

It can no longer be disputed that global warming is real. The polar ice caps are melting. Polar bears are drowning, as they attempt to swim from one iceberg to another. And in a few years it will all be gone. Glaciers are disappearing at an alarming rate, temperatures are going up worldwide, and we are looking at one of the largest mass extinctions in geological history; fully 50 percent of the world's wildlife will be gone by the end of this century.

Mr President . . . you should have signed the Kyoto Treaty.

As for the democratic party, should any of them be reading my comments, they should know the conditions that republicans must have for crossing over, and voting on the democratic ticket.

We want candidates who are strong on defense. They do not have to be retired army generals, although many of us consider Collin Powell to have the kind of leadership skills that would make a good president. To bad he is not running. And too bad for you democrats he is on the "wrong" side. I would vote for him, and I happen to be from the deep south. Others would vote for him as well.

Except that none of us will ever get a chance to vote for him, due to the lack of vision and leadership I see in the republican party. But it is also the democratic party as well. I doubt if either party has the guts or vision to support an African - American presidential candidate, even if it was one that might win the election.

We want candidates who will not take away our guns, or what many of us consider our God given Constitutional right to keep and bear arms. If you leave this issue alone, then many more of us will support you. And if you do not leave it alone? Then as you discovered in previous elections, we will put our own differences aside, and unite against you. Al Gore can tell you what happens to presidential candidates, who would take away our right to keep and bear arms.

And if your candidates meet these criteria? Then you MIGHT just see a lot of other dissatisfied republicans, crossing over and voting on the democratic ticket.

Posted by: David Potter | September 15, 2006 10:39 PM


If you have tortured or ordered torture you will be arrested, prosecuted and executed. The Geneva Conventions apply to the USA, Israel and all other UN members. Violate these laws and you will be brought to justice.

History will judge the torturers harshly and absurd attempts to pretend the law does not apply will not last

Other war criminals abrogating the geneva conventions against collective punishment, targeting civilians and infrastructure should rest. You will not receive leniency when you are tried for war crimes

Posted by: oystercatcher | September 15, 2006 10:51 PM

All of my friends at the gay leather bar support torture of prisoners, yet they are not conservatives! Ironic.

Posted by: Lloyd Chakalawa | September 15, 2006 10:54 PM

Terry Vargason is a typical idiot.

Posted by: Joe Thompson | September 15, 2006 11:15 PM

Simply put, this is typical Rove. After 5 years of no prosecution, its now important? But of course, its election time. Isn't it obvious that these proposals are so preposterous that they would never pass judicial review? But wait, thats not the point. The point is to make the terms so ridiculous that the Democrats have to come out of the shadows against such absurd premonitions. Unfortunatly the last two election cycles have made them all too aware that even the appereance of "Weakness on Terrorism" will only help them lose. With the Dems on the sidelines on this one, the "Rougue Republicans" or "Dissenters" or "Nazi Appeasers" had to be the ones to protect American Beliefs and standards.

PS. so much for "Shining city on the hill"!

Posted by: lost soul in a fish bowl | September 15, 2006 11:15 PM

These comments all seem to be thoughtful - although there are a few people just lashing out. I remember an Al Franken comment, which I paraphrase badly, about the angry and hostile faction of 'conservatives' who attack 'liberals' when the 'liberals' question the government, accusing the 'liberals' of treason and unamericanism. He was pointing out that a child loves a parent unquestioningly, even if that parent is doing things they shouldn't. An adult, however, loves another adult unconditionally - but is not afraid to tell their loved one when they are behaving badly. To question one's government - or point out they are behaving badly - is to act like a grown up. To hold that 'no sin wrapped in the American Flag is a sin at all' - is to act like a child. Apologies to Mr. Frankin for mangling the quote, but the gist hopefully comes through. You can question the administration, you can challenge the administration, you can disagree with public policy - it isn't treason, it's what being American is all about.
One more note: about the detainees... the VAST majority were not 'caught in the act' at all. They were scooped up, often by rival warlords, and turned into the Americans. For many there is no evidence they have done anything wrong at all. This, in effect, is the crux of the problem. No evidence.
Cheers.

Posted by: Andrew | September 15, 2006 11:35 PM

How can one call himself christian and look the other way as hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians (Iraq, Lebanon etc.) are slaughtered upon lies and deception. They follow the adage "keep repeating a lie long enough and forcefully enough and people will believe it". We will never get anywhere as long as we lower ourselves to the level of "extremists" or as the favorite buzz of the season goes "fascists". Killing of innocents can never be justified.

How does destruction of stem cells carry a greater moral burden than death of a woman or a child in a cluster bomb strike? Why do we think twice about protesting such an abomination in the face of our so called "fiends"? Forget christian, where are our human values, something all of us are born with!

Posted by: sanemanininsaneworld | September 15, 2006 11:44 PM

conspearicey to bring down the trade center to go to war.it was a black op.carried out by the united states.from the current administration.go figure.

Posted by: | September 15, 2006 11:48 PM

Ok, all you intelligent people, just know that you are now on "The List". George, you know monitors the internet. Ooops guess I'm there too now. Of course no worries cuz none of us can make a difference and he knows that. If we could, citing "Terrorism" he would shut the net down I'm sure.

Posted by: ladyoh | September 15, 2006 11:51 PM

He moniters the internet, but doesnt read the newspaper?

Posted by: lost soul in a fish bowl | September 15, 2006 11:55 PM

Hey Benny.

Way to march out the old "Liberals are Bad"
WarHorse. I am a conservative Republican who cannot stand these lying-two-faced hypocrites in this administration. The Country is about to take back control of itself in November.The administration has killed enough innocent people, both our soldiers and civilians abroad in Irag.

Posted by: Steve A. | September 16, 2006 12:52 AM

It is hilarious how "liberals" (yes, that what 90 percent of the posters are here) on the one hand state all about conspiracy theories and how evil the President is and at the same time talking about how stupid he is. It makes some of you sound like you believe in UFOs and that we never landed on the Moon (another conspiracy!!).

This is our President. I support him.
He is not God. He is not the Devil. He is human. He makes mistakes. He has shortcomings just as you and I do.
So did Clinton, Bush Sr., Ford, Nixon, Johnson, Kennedy, and on and on.
When Clinton was President, I respected him, even though he did some incredibly STUPID things like the one sided trade agreement with China and lying, which led to his impeachment hearings.
In our so media entranced, 24 hour online in-the-lights modern world, being President today is so much more challenging than previous years. The modern day President has very little real power. Can you imagine having that job for even 10 minutes? Think of the pressures, the huge challenges we face, could you handle it? I think not. I couldn't, and wouldn't want the job.
I would be tempted to take the next plane to Crawford and say screw this.
The President has a tough job. He is commited to making a difference in fighting terrorism where it breeds.
I have no easy answers, but I do know that we will have George W. for two more years. The gridlock in Washington was not caused by him. It was caused by career politicians (Republicans and Democrats) who will do anything to protect their cushy jobs. The media has only exacerbated the problem by creating issues out of nonissues. Nowadays, politics involves alot of finger pointing and blaming the other party without coming up with real concrete solutions or to discuss real issues (like economic development and job creation).
Terrorism is not going away as much as we want to ignore it. In coming years it is only going to get worse. If we are to survive as a democracy in coming years, we are going to have to come together instead of just yell at each other. All that does is make each other deaf and hoarse, and angry.

Posted by: reality | September 16, 2006 12:53 AM

If we had never gotten into this "illegal" war on innocent people we wouldn't be having the argument on whether torture is o.k. or not. Of course, if "we" got captured and were being tortured, it would be against the Geneva Convention and morality, if we have any left. However, if "we" capture "them", it's o.k. to torture them even if we don't know if they are guilty. We can't feel any pain, not even in our hearts for a human being, so naturally, torture is o.k. Think about truth, and put yourself in "their" shoes before you pass judgment. Think about something else. Bin Laden has eluded (miraculously) all of our efforts to capture him if there have been any efforts. Why? Could it be that he is not the one who planned and did the crime on 9-11? After all, his family and "W"s family go way back in their friendship. ?????? I happen to be a Christian, but some of my friends are not, but we share a common saying, just worded differently. They say, "What goes around, comes around" I say, "we reap what we sow". Can we really force democracy on every nation in the world and still call it democracy?

Posted by: frustrated citizen | September 16, 2006 01:02 AM

Best Bumper Sticker Ever:

"BUSH IS LISTENING!
(USE BIG WORDS)"

Posted by: Radiola | September 16, 2006 01:14 AM

Either, we all end this culture of fear, or it will end us all.

Posted by: Mark Esposito | September 16, 2006 01:15 AM

If we could only get 100,000 American troopers DEAD;the gas would be 0.99/gal
super.

Posted by: mkocbus@yahoo.com | September 16, 2006 01:21 AM

Islamic fundamentalists differ from the rest of the world in that the latter can tolerate the continued existence of nonbelievers, whereas the former cannot by way of religious doctrine. If the Islamic fundamentalists were the ones with the superior firepower, there is no question they'd use it to kill us. They've plainly said so. Iranian president Ahmadinejad has plainly stated that he means to annihilate Israel. Neither appeasement nor negotiation is possible with an enemy who will only be satisfied by your death! There simply is no compromise position.

In most cases the ends don't justify the means, but in a life-or-death struggle they certainly do. Islamic fascists must be found and neutralized or exterminated, by all available means. The sooner the better. We positively cannot allow them to obtain or accumulate nuclear firepower, or it's curtains for the civilized world. With several Islamic fascist nations trying desperately to obtain nuclear weapons, and with the mainstream Muslim community never hastening to condemn terrorist acts, it is clear we are nearing a pivotal crossroads in human history. This struggle will be one of the defining issues of our era.

George W. Bush realizes what is at stake. Mistakes have been made, to be sure, but our president realizes the threat the world faces and has uniquely risen to meet it. He has shown courage and taken action. He has stood ground despite incredible opposition. Because the stakes are so high, and the enemy is so invisible, he knows that extreme measures are required to defeat them. Unfortunately, many of his countrymen lack either the intellect to realize what must be done, or the stomach to do it. Some even see the U.S.A. as being the greater evil here. Somehow, beheadings, rape chambers, and genocide are all acceptable elements of the human condition. Whereas passenger profiling, sleep deprivation, and pink underwear represent the very essence of evil. Okay, right. Oh, and Al-Qaida didn't destroy the WTC towers, it was a government black op conducted with Bush's full knowledge. Whatever.

The pathetic dimwits who peddle this sort of rubbish are impeding progress at every turn, and doing everything in their power to help bring ruin to the greatest civilization in the history of the world. All because as liberals, they cannot stand the fact that some people have more than others in our society, and they're determined to put an end to it by any means. Heaven forbid anyone should see fit to work his way to a better life for himself and others! And earning a profit? Pure evil! No no, a much better idea is for these superior liberal intellects to run the world and decide exactly who should get what, leaving no particular incentive for anyone to excel at anything.

The time has come for all Americans to wake up and realize that this enemy wants you dead. Even you liberals who, through your incessant questioning of America's moral authority and bashing of our leadership in time of war, are doing your best to help make it happen!

Posted by: PennConservative | September 16, 2006 01:56 AM

Since "King George" Bush and his loyal followers think his war is good why not put Bush, his wife, his daughters, brother and family, his political cronies and all of his loyal followers in military uniforms and send them to the front lines to experience first hand just how great his ideas of war are! It's OK to kill and maime our families in his "war against terrorism" but not politicians families? It's tragic what 12 years of the Bush family mentality has done and will continue to do to America and the world. I sometimes wonder if he is the antichrist predicited in the bible....

Posted by: Terri | September 16, 2006 02:17 AM

-----------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------
Typical Liberal Reporter

Posted by: Terry Vargason | September 15, 2006 10:45 AM
-----------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------
Well, isn't that kind of a weak comment in the current political atmosphere?

Posted by: Weston C. Andrews | September 16, 2006 02:37 AM

Dear fear-mongering torture supporters:

I am not afraid of the terrorists. The only thing the American people have to fear is fear itself - and those who attempt to sow it among us.

Posted by: Venicemenace | September 16, 2006 02:47 AM

"I wonder if Bush is the antichrist." Got it. Forget Hitler, he was a stand up guy. Stalin hardly rose to antichrist level. But Bush, now there's the personification of evil. Do you people have any idea how pathetically ridiculous you sound? I suppose Saddam Hussein must be the holy father himself, in your eyes.

"Why don't so and so have to go to war?" Rest assured, many of Bush's loyal supporters ARE on the front lines. And they knew they might be there one day when they signed up for military service.

We can all be grateful that people asking silly questions like these are neither on the front lines nor in the war rooms. Had they been there in 1945, we'd all be speaking German now.

Posted by: PennConservative | September 16, 2006 02:47 AM

I'm not afraid of the terrorists. I live in a country ran by terrorists. I live in a country where they raped my foremothers and hung my forefathers who they captured from Africa. Not to mention they took this country from 50% of my blood and moved us off into reservations and slaughtered many of us. So now all of you Bush lovers and liberal haters get a real clue. I'm not a liberal nor am I conservative. I am a true American that this country treats like a terrorist. This war is unnecessary and a failure just as Vietnam was. We have a president who thinks he is above the constitution. I have lost a love one is this war for nothing. Not for my safety or this country safety. But for monetary game. It's election time the President wants our nation to fear. I refuse to fear because I have been lving fear on the American soil for 29 years.

Posted by: NativeAmerican | September 16, 2006 03:14 AM

"The only thing to fear is fear itself."

Maybe true when FDR said it in 1933, but America has changed. Now we need to fear our own lack of fortitude and missing moral compass too.

We have a mortal enemy working tirelessly to cause our demise, who's willing to play by no rules. I'm not afraid of them either, yet. However, simply declaring that we are unafraid isn't enough. We need to ACT. Get it? ACT! I know war can be a darned inconvenience and all, and wouldn't it be nice if we all loved one other, etc. But sometimes we must fight to preserve that which we cherish.

Funny thing, those who don't cherish America are the same ones who never seem to think we should fight for anything.

Posted by: PennConservative | September 16, 2006 03:18 AM

Bush; worst president ever.

impeachment is a must!

Posted by: honestjohn | September 16, 2006 03:23 AM

Yet another scintillating, well-reasoned nugget of profound wisdom from a Bush-basher - thanks.

Posted by: PennConservative | September 16, 2006 03:29 AM

Once again we have been treated to a view of GW realizing he is guilty of War Crimes and trying to wiggle out of them. Way back when Bush swiftboated McCain he should of known that some day McCain would be able to get even. By blocking GWs attempt to change the law McCain will be leaving Bush open to High Crimes, that nasty Impeachable crime and also to War Crimes, which carry penaltys up to death. Yes, many have died while being questioned in the Secret CIA Prisons, and that can trigger the Death Penalty.
Actually all of the above is what should happen, but Bush will just place another signing statement to any law that is passed, and pray he has put enough Ringwingnuts on the Supreme Court to get away with it. He just better pray he never leaves the States after he leaves office because the International War Crimes Court may just practice a lil rendition of it's own on him.

Posted by: Cranky | September 16, 2006 03:41 AM

it amazes me how short these liberals memories are. where was there outrage with bill clinton cowardly airwar over bosnia, or the charade in haiti? bill clinton let american soilders die in mogidishu because he was afraid hed lose a tick of the black vote in his reelection against dole. liberals are the true enemy of america. we will survive only now with a military government. the gop isnt allowed to protect the country and the dumbocrats are to cowardly.

Posted by: dan jacobi | September 16, 2006 03:44 AM

I have decided to put a filter in both my ears recently. All "conservatives" & the great "president" always seem to set it off. The filter is designed to flush out the lies and only deliver the truth to me. The funny thing is that everytime I turn on the television and watch the "president" & co. flapping their gums about their agenda I can not seem to hear a thing! The reality of it all is that bush (lower case due to my disgust) and his hencemen have set off a clock. Their own. Face it, their time has come and gone. A very large percent of Americans are just TIRED off all their lies and manipulation. Actully, the only ones I can see who are not complaining are the rich and the closeminded. The whole republican system is falling in within itself right before the administrations eyes and its about time.
Alot has been said about how the Dems are gonna utilize this and use it to their advantage. How many lies are the democrats gonna spread to destroy the GOP. Its good to see that the republicans have FINALLY started to believe their own lies and that they can self combust all on their own.
I have NEVER been a fan off this two party system. I don't belive eighter side is any more honest than the next. One thing is for certain though. Bush has worn out his welcome and many Americans have started to open their eyes to his manipulation of power, the constitution, the congress, and our basic human rights as a whole. AND ITS ABOUT TIME!@#$%^&*(
DO YOUR PART TO DE-THRONE KING GEORGE!!!
If I wanted to live under such a moron I'd move to North Korea!

Posted by: Vince. | September 16, 2006 03:57 AM

Powell has nothing to loose. He has been a coward and traitor, for not speaking out when he had the chance a long time ago. Nothing he does now can change that.
The tide is shifting.... he wants to make sure that he is on the "right" side. So is McCain, another untrustworthy character.

Posted by: Fritz Schumacher | September 16, 2006 04:17 AM

Only someone who isnt willing to use their own mind would support Bush's attempt to legalize torture. On this issue Bush has already been rebuked twice by the now conservative leaning Supreme Court who called his programs unconstitutional. Legal experts are already saying that the bill the white house has proposed would probably be rejected by the Supreme Court, based on how they've already ruled on this subject. Is Bush going to try to disband the Supreme Court next?? (If only he had gotten Harriet Myers on there)

Senator Graham asked a good question the other day: he asked 'is any court really going to sentence someone to death who never got to see the evidence against them?' Think about that - Bush actually thinks its a good idea to convict people of serious crimes who cant see evidence against them! How can anybody possible defend themselves in that situation? Does anyone (with a brain) actually think thats sensible??! I dont see why Bush doesnt just propose straight up execution with no trial at all - whats the difference? We took down Sadam because he was a tyrant (well that was the second reason offered once no WMD were found). Now Bush is doing the same kind of thing a tyrant would do - trying to set up a kangaroo court.

Are we going to be a civilized society or a bunch of barbarians?. We are better then this type of plan. America should stand for truth and justice. You cannot have true justice without all the facts out in the open. We've been holding people captive for years without ever charging them with a crime. Imagine if this happened to an american citizen overseas in some developing nation. One of us sitting in some jail for years with no charge of any crime at all. Then imagine that, when the trial finally came along, that this american wasnt allowed to see the evidence against him. Americans would all be outraged.

Aside from the one 9/11 hijacker that did everything possible to be found guilty (i cant remember his name) our government hasnt proved that a single person is guilty of anything - and its not like the Bush team has a lot of credibility on just about any subject - I mean they're basically wrong about every single thing (no WMD, we'd be greeted as liberators, the war would last a few months, the iraqi oil would pay for the reconstruction - the list goes on).

You want to know the real reason Bush has to pass his version of the bill? Its because most of these prisoners have already been tortured. As of right now he cannot put any of them on trial because all statements that came out during the cia torture sessions would be thrown out. It has also opened the cia operatives, and the US, open to possible future charges of war crimes. (check out the articles written about how so many cia agents have had to get insurance to protect themselves against future lawsuits). When a terrorist kidnaps a westerner, they often torture that person and make them sign a false confession or give a false statement, and then they execute that hostage. That just happened to a british hostage just fews ago. Thats exactly what we would be doing. Thats not real justice. If Bush doesnt get article 3 of the Geneva Convention "clarified" he will probably have to let many of these people go.

Just remember this is the same team that brought you the shameful response to Katrina, and tried to sell our 5 major US ports to a Saudi Company (most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudis) - you dont have to be liberal, an independent or a republican to question Bush and his team - you just have to use your own mind.

Posted by: Ken O | September 16, 2006 04:47 AM

Iraq was invaded because it allegedly produced weapons of mass destruction. That has now been found to be untrue. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis lives were lost in the invasion and billions of dollars of infrastructure was destroyed. Is Iraq better off today? Billions have been spent to rehabilitate the country and we have committed a great number of troops to that country yet it remains worse off today than under Sadamm. Hundreds of civilians are killed on a daily basis, not to mention the numerous US soldiers who have been injured or injured. The US does not have an exit strategy. Bush wants to leave but cannot because the situation is still volatile. This is a classic case of American naivety. We assumed the Iraqis people would welcome us with open arms for getting rid of Sadam but so far all we have done is to create a civil war. Sad am was a despot, a wicked man but kept his country together. Now it is the responsibility of the USA to maintain some semblance of peace. Sad am hated both Iran and the religious right of Islam. These two forces are wrecking havoc in this country now. Bush really went into Iraq to secure oil but the USA may end up losing the supply if this civil war persists. Bush is getting desperate and wants to use all means possible to try and secure his agenda. This includes interrogation short cuts which could have ramifications on US troops if/when they are captured by adversaries. Ever few years, some foreign diplomat in DC or New York does something wrong and gets away with it. It greatly angers us that these people get away with breaking laws in our country and we want them to face justice. The govt usually does nothing the situation blows over. The reason why nothing is done to these offenders is to allow American diplomats in foreign countries that same latitude. If we start prosecuting offenders in our country, the same will happen to our diplomats and some of these countries have very tough laws. Bush, take your cue from this.

Posted by: Al | September 16, 2006 04:50 AM

No Empire Lasts Forever

Babylon, Persia, Greece/Macedonia, Rome, Spain/Portugal, Great Britain, USA . . . .

Vote America come November...Country Before Party
Preserve America...

Imagine the world with Communist China as the one and only super power.

Posted by: John | September 16, 2006 05:11 AM

Bu$h is just trying to clean after himself.
He wants a law that will erase all his Abu
Garibs. He made everything for Exxon and Halliburton. Now he is just defends interests of big oil which are sucking it in Iraq. That's why bu$h not interested in
Afganistan where the enemy number one dwells. There is no oil in Afganistan why to go there? Before war bu$h have some secret meeting about strategic energy plan, do you remember?
Here is my own plan:
1)Troops withdrowal from Iraq , not to home but to border allies countries. That will make real leader in Iraq and Americans can deal with him. The new Iraqi
leader will not support terrorism like Saadam feared them because he thought they are threat to his power. Iraqi wouldn't be
terror state because of strong goverment.
There will be strong goverment, don't doubt that. Why? Because oil and world prices of it. That would make Iraqi goverment very strong and allow americans deal with it. No leader will ever challange
american might because everybody know how
efficient it at dumping any goverment any army it is. Though it can't build goverments. There is no need for that. Let's people of a country to build any goverment they want. If it will be bad another short attack and that goverment will fall. Any leader with common sense will cooperate with americans.
2)After american troops would be out of Iraq Washington will have big leverage on Iran. Fearing another Bahdad fall Tehran will cooperate and no WMD will be developed.
Do you know why bu$h don't want it? Yeah, you know. Oil. His friends at oil holes filling tankers and their pockets. Army are
paying it with lives of their soldiers.

Posted by: sulacco | September 16, 2006 05:23 AM

The current generation has just extended the war on terrorism and the terrorist causes to our future generation without foresight.
Just imagine the propaganda recruiting material we have provided terrorist organization.In a culture where children are bainwashed into hating the west, imagine the impact pictures of US citizens and troops torturing and degrading their fellow countrymen would have. These are children who are 6 - 10 years old. If experienced,educated ,conservative christian adults can blindly follow their leader without thought or reason, so can a 6 year old brainwashed for years by the likes of Osama bin laden and the like.

Bush and his administration has done great injustice to the future generations of this world by not dealing with this issue in a more mature way.


Posted by: Kelly | September 16, 2006 06:03 AM

Where's Crazy Horse when we need him?

Posted by: Rose Clifford | September 16, 2006 06:17 AM

The Geneva Covention didn't apply to terrorist. It does apply to Nations with a standing army with insignia's making them clearly visisble to enemies. Look around our soldiers are clearly marked and stay in bases apart from the population. The terrorists hide in and fight from the population, hence using the population as human shields thus the killing of innocent people can't be helped and is painful to witness, But to condemn our soldiers and not to condemn the terrorists. Makes this country look weaker. You liberals wanting to run these terrorists through the Judical System will give them access to the intel, will give them and their sponsors more power and only weaken us.

Posted by: steve | September 16, 2006 06:22 AM

Like attracts Like. The more we become like Terrorist, the more we attract them.

Do a bit of research and figure out how all of this started (with Osama) in the first place.

Two wrongs don't make a right, and what ever happened to Christian Principles? Where is "turn the other cheek", "do unto others as you would have done unto you"?

Only hypocrites would use the "Eye for an eye" mentality. That was not based on Christs teachings, that was the Old Testiment.

Terrorists had one goal on 9/11, and that was to start a fight. We were SO predictable. Conveniently, we also provide fuel to the Extremists claims that (Western Christians) are hypocrites.

And to those who refer to the word "liberal" as if describing scum, don't forget Jesus was, in his time, the ULTIMATE liberal. Christian indeed.

Posted by: Beth | September 16, 2006 07:19 AM

If the Republicans want to keep the Senate then they have to show tht the members in the Senate are independent of the unpopular President. What better way to do that then to have the President pick a losing fight with his own party. Sound far fetched? Sounds likd Rove to me.

As for Powell, I agree with the comments. His time to be a statesman was during the rush to the lead up of the Iraq war. Claire Short in the UK resigned rather than signed onto the pointlessness of the Iraq war. Powell, who knew that the invasion was dangerous and foolish, should have had the courage to do the same thing.

Posted by: Jim Thompson | September 16, 2006 07:53 AM

Bush has divided our nation by his consistantly partisan politics. everyone is either for him or against him..as he has stated..He has no sense of the value of compromise..It's his way or the highway, right or wrong. His politics are divisive and arrogance. Instead of this Iraq debacle, he should have secured Afghanistan and gone for Osama rather than fixate on his personal vendetta with Saddam. Now we are losing Afghanistan and have no fresh troops. Our military readiness level in the States is severely degraded. Vietnam was bad enough, (I was in the Navy during Vietnam), but this destabilzation of the Middle East by this incompetent administration, what ever we want to call them, is unforgiveable...I'd rather vote for Nixon again than Bush minor....

Posted by: Ben | September 16, 2006 09:05 AM

Agree with Jim Thompson this is very likely
scenario.

Posted by: sulacco | September 16, 2006 09:07 AM

Hooray for you Mr. Powell. It's so nice to know that a statesman can have second thoughts and at last admit a mistake. It's never to late to join the BBQ of this obsene administration and step forward to help restore the American way. Even the arch conservative Buckley says of Bush that "he will leave no legacy".

Posted by: American Pie | September 16, 2006 09:11 AM

ITS TIME FOR THE WASHINGTON POST TO SHUT DOWN FUKKING MORONS DONT REFLECT THE VIEW OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ONLY WASHINGTON LEFT WING KOW TOWS

Posted by: Edward Faust | September 16, 2006 09:35 AM

readers,
re-read limey's comments. he is right. everything with bush is a big secret,including why we went to war.

bush has never addressed the irag people, has never even attempted to explain his actions in a truthful dialog. of course, when you use bocus evidence, its difficult to mantain a straight face.

Posted by: luckyboy | September 16, 2006 09:36 AM

After reading most of the comments posted on this topic, one thing really jumps out at me. Those people who oppose Bush's torture plan have usually written calmly, using reason and logic to support their position. Those who approve have mostly been shrilly screaming "liberals", and warning us that we are doomed if we don't blindly follow this president. I am not aligned with any political party, and I have very little sympathy with either one. Enough Democrats have supported Bush to get us into this mess, and I don't hear them talking about any viable alternatives. Whichever side controls the House after the election is going to have a very hard time dealing with this issue.
Unlike many people, I will confess that I don't have the answer either. But I do know that some things that are being proclaimed as our only salvation will only make things worse. READ YOUR HISTORY BOOKS!! America is in this position because our foreign policy has been geared to extract as much money from other countries as possible. Dictators who understand this concept and are willing to support it have always enjoyed our protection. Any study of our policy in Central America will show this to be true. We have invaded sovereign nations and spilled innocent blood many times to protect the profits of foreign investors. READ YOUR HISTORY BOOKS!! Now we are faced with a terrorist threat from people who hate us and would like to destoy us. What to do about this is a very important question, but the first thing we must determine is WHY they hate us. And the answer to that question should be obvious to anyone who ponders it objectively. We have exploited them to bolster our financial position. We have supported dictators who deny their people any political freedom, as long as they keep the oil flowing. We have blindly supported Israel in any action they have taken, right or wrong. Of course they hate us. How could they not hate us? Think about how you would feel if another nation did that to us.
Well I can already hear people screaming "liberal" and "appeaser", along with a few other choice names. So let me make it clear that I abhor terror and cruelty in all its forms, and I love my country as much as anyone. We must fight the terrorists with every LEGAL means we have. But we must find a way to do this without giving up our freedoms and civil rights. I personally would rather be at ground-zero in a terrorist attack than to give up the liberty which our ancestors fought and died for. We must fight terrorism in such a way that our values are not compromised or distorted. We must have a policy that stops terrorism, not one that creates more terrorists. And we must look at ourselves in the mirror and take responsibility for our own actions, and shun the policy that creates mistrust
and hatred of us. I am reminded of George Washington's response to the news of Shay's Rebellion. "For God's sake, if they have REAL grievances, redress them: if they have not, employ the force of government against them at once." He was wise enough to realize that underlying causes must be addressed BEFORE taking action. Sadly, we seem to have nobody with the wisdom to stand aloof from the passions and fear that engulf us, so that MEASURED, REASONABLE responses to the threat that faces us can be made, and no one with the moral courage to accept that we are at least partially to blame for the
state of our relations with other nations and peoples.

Posted by: Kenneth Barnes | September 16, 2006 09:49 AM

Thank you, John, for pointing out that no empire exists forever. That's been at the forefront of my thoughts all along. And so often, the empires fell because the leaders stretched resources (human and goods) too thin in expansion efforts, or they focussed on the wrong "enemy" and got overrun from behind, or they made too many enemies, and sometimes a combination of these. In the end, there is no "preserving" any empire.

And I wouldn't compare Bush to Hitler (though there are many similarities in the process used to rise in and keep power) or the AntiChrist (that one is supposed to do good to lull people, haven't seen that yet from Bush), I'd more appropriately compare Bush to Calligula. Madness is madness, and following a madman because you want to be seen as a patriot is also madness. I'm neither Democrat nor Republican -- I voted for Clinton, would vote for Powell -- I'm traditional / conservative in my values, I think successful business owners deserve their wealth and power, and I think people need to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps, not depend on the government to support them (this INCLUDES failing businesses of ANY size). But I'm not blind, mad, or rabidly patriotic.

My firm belief is that Bush will not give up power come the next election, laws notwithstanding. Laws mean nothing to the insane. Fear will keep the general populace quiescent and those in our own country who fight back will become the new terrorists. And the Empire will fall in civil war.

And I believe that there will be a black van full of HLS drones parked in front of my house very soon...

Posted by: Cindy | September 16, 2006 09:53 AM

I swear - if I hear one more ignorant neocon talk about how if we give up we win I will just scream - does anyone remember Korea and Vietnam . . .all the while we were there - the chosen few railroaded the dirty little liberals into accepting how these wars kept them over there - all the while keeping us safe. I say to you - having just served this country for 20 years - first unless you have served, are signing up to serve and fight in Iraq - shut up !!! Your opinion means absolutely nothing - its easy to Dem bash when you are not dodging bullets for the cause you so readily thump your chest about . . . I never signed up to serve this country under the blanket that it was our charter to spread democracy . . .and I strongly disagree with anyone who believes this is the USA' responsibility . . it is not. If you are so smug about your position - please go the nearest VA head trama facility . . .and when you see the numerous young men and women in their with half their skulls missing from IED's . . then go sign up and go to IRAQ - please . . . running your mouth does nothing but show how shallow you are and how totally incommitted to your so called cause you really are. Bush and his crew are total idiots - the trillion we have spent so far over in the middle east "spreading freedom" - because "god told him so" could have secured out borders both north and south, fully funded every single school initiative, funded social security all with change to spare . . . but hey - - now that we have totally pissed of the entire muslem and arab communities - what happenes when they become a unified majority and single us out as the "evil of the world" ? Wake UP !!!

Posted by: DisabledVet | September 16, 2006 10:34 AM

It may be the folks in the White House who ought to be concerned about being brought to justice these days.

Posted by: Loonesta | September 16, 2006 10:35 AM

Reality, I hate to keep beating this dead horse but you people on the right need to get off this comical notion that terrorism=fascism, that Osama=Hitler, that the "war" on terror=WWII=WWIII, and finally the most comically ridiculous notion of all, that Bush=Lincoln, Teddy, FDR, and Churchill all rolled into one.

Let me ask you a question reality: Just when did you discover that we were involved in this global struggle for survival similar to WWII? Because, Bush only began making that addled, stupid declaration five years after the attack on 9-11. Doesn't it seem rather odd to you that after the re-election of Bush in 2004--another election that hinged on some highly questionable electoral tactics in a single state that detrmined the outcome of the election--Bush completely abandoned both Iraq and Afghanistan, announcing that his legacy was going to be the partial privatization of Social Security. Remember that from 2005? In fact, a cursory review of the news outlets throughout the months following his re-election shows that Bush had lost almost all interest in even bringing up the subject of terror or Iraq--until the bombing of the Shiite Mosque elevated news coverage of what was becoming a forgotten war.

It was not until the polls tanked for both him and the republicans this summer did he suddenly discover that we were a desperate fight for survival in a WWII-like conflict with Nazi-like Islamofascists. Convenient isn't it? That right before another election with he and the republicans a notch below Osama and Sadaam on the crapometer, he is peddling this nonsense with him presumably being cast in the glow of real Presidents like Lincoln, FDR and Truman. I don't recall any of those great men ever comparing themselves to any previous occupant of that office. That is why they were great and he is not.

Posted by: Jaxas | September 16, 2006 11:03 AM

Bush is just trying to avoid his own hanging with his legislation. Change the laws now because if the democrats take over impeachment proceeding will begin for his crimes. Bush knows that so now he is scrambling.

Posted by: mat | September 16, 2006 11:19 AM

Remember what I have told you about Bush folks. I was reading about Bush long before he became President. There have been several interesting and revealing books that expose the true lack of maturity in this man. You only saw a small expression of that lack of maturity yesterday at that pitiful excuse for a press conference.

Read Gail Sheehan's work on Bush. Or read Kevin Phillips. They will reveal to you just how vindictive a sonofab!tch Bush really is, right down to sending out gangs of sycophants to beat up on anyone who opposed him at anything, going all the way back to his days as a pampered, spoiled schoolboy. All of his life he has been groomed, protected, cleaned up after and elevated way younder above his level of competence, whether it be in his academic, business, military or political pursuits.

Bush has won not by any superior ability to his opponents but rather by owning an army of thugs and groupies who benefit materially and socially from showering his buttocks with abundant smooches. They have papered over his every failure, have punished every potential opponent, have set a bar that can only be interpreted as the "soft bigotry of low expectations."

Anyone who objectively looks at this man and how he got to where he is has to conclude that he is the poster boy for the Peter Principle. It is the reason why this world is now on the very brink of disaster. From the playground to the Presidency, everywhere Bush has been given a task, he has consistently turned a successful enterprise into a fetid sewer of failure and defeat. And in every case, he and his enablers have always been successful at only onew thing: shifting the blame to the innocent and rewarding the guilty.

Posted by: Jaxas | September 16, 2006 11:23 AM

Bush won't give up for the same reason he won't admit what everyone knows to be mistakes: he is a deeply, vastly insecure little man, a mediocrity living in the shadow of his great father. But as others have mentioned he is also a sadist and it's clear that his determination to see fingernails pulled has little to do with "protecting America," as much a shibboleth as it was when used to justify the invasion.

Isn't it ironic .. or perhaps I should say "it isn't ironic" .. that the Republicans, bleating for years about loving freedom, can't wait to turn the USA into Iran, 'cept with crosses instead of crescents.

Posted by: Chris Fox | September 16, 2006 11:31 AM

Terrorism....I am sick of the word terrorism. Our wonderful FDR like President Bush uses the word quite often...quite often indeed. He vows that we will stay in Iraq until the last terrorsist is gone. Fellow Republicans and also you Democ-Rats (just having a little fun) when you hear our president make such brave powerful and All American statements like that...then ..you know we have a real kook as a president.
Our Kooky president uses the term terrorist as if they are todays Nazi army. It ain't that simple because terrorism is a tactic. It is a way of life for some, and it can't be fought using conventional military tactics...why can't this nut in the White House understand this? Terrorism can only be fought using covert action. Terrorist fighting must be fought using infiltration techniques with Soldiers of Fortune or Covert CIA operatives. Soldiers riding around in HumVees are nothing but sitting ducks and is totally ineffective in fighting terrorism. Anyone who has studied military tactics can tell you that Bush/Rummy/Cheney (3 Stooges)are nut cases if they really believes that staying the course will effectiviley kill all the terrorist. Thats like shooting quail with a shotgun while being drunk, sure will hit some but how many innocent judges will get hit in the face with flying buckshot?
This Iraqi presence is a sham and a fiasco that does nothing but allow the rich military arms industry to get richer. It also amazes me that mostly all the politicians who voted for this war were Chicken Hawks or those who never served our country when they had the chance..you know...the ones like Dick Cheney...who had something much better to do during the Vietnam War...yet the few who did serve seem to be the ones getting slammed when they make negative comments on the course of the war. Funny how everything has become ass backwards these last few years and the American people lap it up just because they need to walk Lock Step with our Republican Party. Well this Republican Walks Alone.

Posted by: A New Thinking Republican | September 16, 2006 12:14 PM

Being ex-military myself (US Navy) it's paramount that the Geneva Convention rules apply to all soldiers of all nations. We cannot arbitrarily decide that the Islamic terrorists are not soldiers and they are not protected by the same laws afforded to our military personnel. Powell and McCain are both war veterans (not some National Guard veteran that had seen no actual action) so who's insight on this issue are you more likely to agree with? I know what my gut and my common sense is telling me and thankfully the Senate is seeing what a terrible idea this is. We, as a peaceful nation, must lead by example only.

Posted by: Darren | September 16, 2006 12:43 PM

I'm from Russia. And I belive the United States of America can do more for the World then it is doing now. America is doing every single step in it's own profit I understand that and can take it because mostly technical progress is going to help everybody. But i think that bu$h-minor is doing it one-side now that create hate in the World. And he is doing it not for
benefit the USA. He is serving oil companies. I thought that after Clinton it is evident that whole world should be united. USA have to unite naturally with European Union but instead they used selfish behavior. Israel is fearing it's neigbours because it's too rich and sly and arabs are poor. Israel reject the idea that your neigbour should be prospering too and then you have nothing to fear from them.
I have the feeling that Democrats were all payed for to shup up and don't disturb the oil
business. Now with oil prices highrocket Republicans have big stick to subdue anybody. That's why bu$h-minor is so arrogant. But arrogancy is very expensive thing. Once it overhelm you and people will turn from you away. Don't call me liberal or left because it's just common sense. It's rule that actually business have no mercy in doing money. They can destroy all country if it will help them to be rich(without threat to their security of course).
2DisabledVet:
I think that bu$h's allies created a hole in which terrorist were able to strike Big. They just let it go. They allowed Osama to hit USA.
It's like Perl Harbor. You have to have incident to start a benifit war. It's like attack of
the ship which started Vietnam war.
Everybody says America have no exit strategy. But it have to go anyway today or tommorow.
Like I said stay out of Iraq on it's borders. Wait and help finacialy(it will be much cheaper) to form goverment. It will cost some Iraqies lifes but in present situation it's
costing it anyway. And it will stop costing American lifes. Historically most succesful America's weapon is economics. That's the biggest and most strong weapon ever created.
I think America can win everybody without a single shot. Use bankers and Soros.
But with bullets you will create bullets.
You helped Saadam to create chemical weapons to use it agains Iran. Arabs against arabs.
Do you think they will love you for that. I so on the photo Ramsfield shaking hands with
junger Saadam back in 80's.
And actually I sincerely belive that America will win in the end but not with this bu$h-minor at the helm. You created the Net, you give the World personal computers which
created huge economies. That's the biggest American weapon not bullets and guns.

Posted by: sulacco | September 16, 2006 12:53 PM

Steve, please read our history of the American revolution. Had our troops not fought from behind trees, been assisted by "citizens" who hid, fed, and provided medical care, had they not lived amoung the citizens whenever possible, we would have lost that war and today we would have a Queen instead of a President. Your analogy would then imply those great men who fought for our liberation from England should have been tried, convicted, and sumerily exucuted due to the crime of "hiding amoung the citizen"s and therfor using them as "shields", which is, in your opinion, a deplorable and cowardly method of fighting a war. Now, I encourage all Americans to look to history before opening their mouths and looking like uneducated fools. We ARE in a fight for our very way of life, our freedoms. Who is to blame for our increased unpopularity amoung the world's countries? Why our own government, Repulican and Democratic leaders these past twenty years. Out government has the arrogance to set itself up as the world's "police". Our govenment is doing exactly what the extreamist Islamic's are accused of doing which all are in such an uproar over: Deciding our way of life is the only way to live, and thrusting those beliefs onto others who are unwilling to accept those beliefs. Who is our government to stand up and declare our way of thinking is the only way to think? That our "Democracy" is the only right and preferable way of life? Our govenment has set us on the road to what is occurring today, and Bush and his staff has done more to injure America, has created such security issues we all are in fear of our future survival. What would the average American family do if a foriegn army invaded and demanded we begin living our lives the "right" way, and that in doing so we are being "liberated" from that which is wrong, and we should be grateful they care so much about us to expend such resourses and energy and lives to establish this "right" way of life? I have every expectation that average family would step up in outrage and demand to be left alone to get back to the life they have preferred and fought to establish for well over two hundred years. What do you think that average families sons and daughters, who watch as their father, elder brothers, uncles, cousins, friends, are murdered in front of their eyes will be most apt to want to do to those who did this to their family? Those children will grow a hatred so intense it will consume their souls and set them on the road to vengence and in their minds justice, leading to the label "terrorists". Okie was correct in stating that the next generation of terrorists will be known as the Bush Bombing Babies. Bush has done more harm to this countries safety and has brought such fear to our citizens than any in our history. Bush is a fundamentalist Christian who uses his regigion to justify his atrocities against innocent people. Now he wishes for a bill to pass which will nullify any prosocution of crimes he has committed in secrecy during his tenure. Bush's own people see how crazy he is, how unbalanced, how intensely rabid he truly is, that he came into the presidency with an agenda, and that agenda was to create war in the Middle East, Iraq especially in order to "finish what his fatehr failed to finish". Bush cares nothing for the American People, or our Constitution. He believes he is devinely chosen by God to lead this country into bloodshed in the name of "Democracy and Christianity". He is unable to see anything but his own agenda, vetoes bills to use stem cells which will cure many diseases, yet takes high moral ground as innocent woemn, children and citizens are murdered in their homes. He "mourns" for those he sent to their deaths, "comiserates" with their families, yet obviously feels no real emotion for all the carnage he is responsible for in his blind quest of his hidden agenda. He uses the tragedy of 9/11 to further his political party, states he wishes to "remember" 9/11 yet does not care that we Americans will NEVER FORGET and DON"T NEED his pathetic attempts to sensationalize the loss of thousands of families and friends of the victems who still greive deeply for the loss of loved ones. I also agree it is odd that this attack occurred directly before election periods, how convienant for Bush. I do remember, very clearly, how Osama bin Laudin denied responsibility for 9/11 directly following this attack on our home soil. Osama bin Laudin has NEVER DENIED RESONSIBILITY for ANY act he was responsible for. Look at his history and you will see how eager this terrorist is in taking credit for ALL atrocities he commits, so why would he deny this one which would be a reigning triumpth for his terrorist group? IT simply does not add up for me, not when looked at logically, and critically. Why has Bush and his administration fought so hard for 9/11 to NOT BE PROPERLY INVESTIGATED? Why are there still, to this day, so many unanswered questions, questions that could be answered if Bush and his administration did not work so diligently to hide facts and vital information from the 9/11 Commission, using "secrets of state" and the flimsy excuse of "American security". I do not trust this administration, and I am a Rebuplican, voted for Bush in both elections. I voted the second time only due to worry that what was started needed to be finishes as due debt to the iraqi people. If we pulled out now we would be leaving them to civil war and to the terrorist groups. I call on all American citizens to put aside party affiliation and use your own noodle to look critically at what is going on around us. Stop this bickering and pull together or this splintering will be the loss and ruin of this great nation. I am a proud American, and refuse to stoop to the level of terrorits. I believe in the Constitution of this country and stand up for it. We can not pick and choose who gets to have due process and who does not. We can not have free and secret wire tapping, secret arrests in the night where people who where "profiled" people who spoke up against what is evil and wrong, arrested in secrecy and swept away into some secret prison to be denied due process. All who believe that these practices are kept to only known terrorists are naive and will regret their blind following. Sheep follow blindly, not intelligent, thinking, sentient beings. Use the brains God gave us, and take a stand for right and freedom. Bush is enslaving us, putting at great risk all we have strove so hard to establish here in America. We the Citizens of America are RESPONSIBLE for who is in office. Quit sniviling and do your duty by VOTING WITH INTELLIGENCE AND THOUGHT. Remember our past, learn from that past, and act now before it is too late to ensure this country stands firm in the coming centuries. The person who said that many great and poweful nations have fallen from power due to ignorance, blind following, and simple apathy is correct. WE DARE NOT BECOME THE VERY THING WE ARE FIGHTING AGAINST, TERRORISTS. TORTURING, SECRET POLICE, STRIPPING DUE PROCESS, AND CHANGING THE CHECK AND BALANCE OF POWER IN OUR DEMOCRACY is exactly the steps to a NEO NAZI REGIME. WAKE UP and see the DANGER of ALLOWING TOO MUCH POWER IN THE HANDS OF A "LEADER". It is true that ABSOLUTE POWER CURRUPTS ABSOLUTELY". Who amoung us whants to look back and realize we are responsible for the downfall of our great nation? Who amoung us wants to lower themselves to the level of the terrorists? Why would we do this? Because we are afraid, and fear is a driving force to do evil. To forget we are human beings with a duty to all other human beings. We must not allow any to be tortured, tried without seeing evidence against them, to have "secret" or in other words "non existant" evidence, against them. I ask all citizens to stop bickering, stop attacking each other, stop this silly and fruitless behavior, which divides us and weakens us. This is exactly what our enemies are striving for. A weak nation which will easily fall. We need to come together in this time of great need and stop behaviors which cause others to hate and dispise us, to see us as invaders imposing our own beliefs and ideologies upon them. People who feel they are being stripped of their very way of life, their religions, who have been invaded on their own turf will fight harder, more viciously than a rabid dog. WE MUST TAKE CARE OF OUR OWN FIRST. All the billions of dollars spent in Iraq should have been used instead to help recover from Katrina. Bush has not turned his back on the American people, he never cared about us in the first place. His record shows that. Look at all his past works, where his attention is, and it is not with the Ameriacan People, but with his self as a Demi-God Fundamentalist hatemonger. We need a government which has the American Peoples needs in the forfront of his/her mind at all times, and not a hidden agenda which has hurt us more in the years he has been in office than any president in our history. May God save us from ourselves. Please stand together and bring back some semblance of safety and streagthen our economy, block off our borders, arrest illigal residents, punish those who hire them, and take back our country from those who have sold us out. God bless America and may he save us from ourselves. Get out and vote. Those who don't vote have no right to complain or offer a voice after the fact.

Posted by: Seree | September 16, 2006 12:55 PM

I was astounded and horrified yesterday when I heard the man who holds the highest office in the land absolutely ignore a very important question: Would he be okay with leaders in other countries interpret the Geneva conventions in manners they saw fit even if it meant torturing Americans who were imprisoned in those countries.

This is a very specific question which needs a direct answer! This is not a question which supports our enemies. This is not a question that "gives aid" and "comfort" to our enemies, this was a simple question asking our President if he would condone and allow other countries a similar freedom of interpretation of the law as he is demanding for the US. This is not a matter of differences in "style", and it is NOT a issue of whether or we need to interpret laws differently in order to protect Americans.

The President was very, very unpresidential in his response to this particular reporter.

This man isn't protecting Americans. He is creating and laying the groundwork for a whole lot of extra hate toward America, and not just from the extremist fringe he is trying to protect us from.

Did anyone else react with disbelief the way I did?

Posted by: Mark | September 16, 2006 12:58 PM

Why are we fighting this war? What is the point? What is the value of a culture that cannot defend itself? What is the value of a culture that has no standards, that believes trying and failing is better than success. What is the value of a culture that does not believe testing is possible in the schools?

What is the value of a culture that is more concerned about the offnese Muslims express for some harsh but not horrible words from the Pope but ignores the militant, apocalyptic speach of the Islamic leaders? What is the value of a society that cannot say crusade and mean it in the figurative sense of fighting for the right and the good, but misintprets the meaning of jihad when it clearly means to destroy the west.

And, while we are at it, if consistancy were at all important, I believe just five posts earlier the great Andrew, whose steadfast adherence to principle and views is as strong as our cultures, that is he melts faster than butter on a hot knife, thought the compromise offered by the President was "the answer" to the problem.

Posted by: Time to just give up? | September 16, 2006 01:07 PM

I have just read all the recent comments regarding the issue of the Senate Armed Services Committee Bill and Pres. Bush's adamant refusal of it.
I would like to point out several things HISTORICALLY ACCURATE that has NOT been mentioned by anyone. During WWII, this Country fought against the Nazi's, The Italians and the Japanese. Which of these countries DID NOT sign or recognise the Genenva Convention? Japan! We had MANY troops killed, tortured, abused and maligned by UNIFORMED OPPOSING SOLDIERS because they COULD AND DID.
YET, WE, As A Nation, thru our own TROOPS DID NOT ABANDON OUR CONSTITUTION OR THE GENENVA CONVENTION to do the same. We also had VIOLATIONS of the Geneva Convention by Nazis and Italian Facists who were TRUE BELIEVERS of their parties doctrines while many of their own military members aborhed the fact their OWN governments violated the Geneva Conventions.
Yesterday, at the National Museum of the United States Air Force, I read a very intersting ORDER written and signed by Hitler that simply stated "ANY AND ALL AIRMEN CAPTURED AFTER STRAFING OR BOMBING CIVILIAN TARGETS OF A NON-MILITARY NATURE WOULD BE SUMMARILY EXECUTED AS WAR CRIMINALS" This was AFTER the Nazi war machine HAD bombed by Airplane, The V1 and V2 rockets LONDON, COVENTRY, BRISTOL AND many other Cities in Great Britian.
YET WE, The US and the Majority of our ALLIES continued to follow the RULES OF WAR as listed and stated in The Geneva Convention of the times and we, The U.S., continued to follow OUR CONSTITUTION.
To answer those who would respond to what I have just written by saying "but we are now in the fight for our very survival"; READ YOUR HISTORY, We were in the fight for our very survival then AND EVEN MORE SO. We DID NOT Know as late as early 1943 if we were going to prevail or not AND IF YOU READ the TWO MEMOs Written by IKE, Even on June 6, 1944 (D-Day)It wasn't a sure thing.
THERE IS NOTHING THAT SHOULD EVER HAPPEN FOR US, THE CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES TO GIVE UP OUR MORAL CODE OR EVER GIVE UP OUR CONSTITUTION OR THE BILL OF RIGHTS EVER!!! THEY ARE WHAT MAKES THIS COUNTRY GREAT ALONG WITH ITS PEOPLE AS WE ALL BELIEVE IN THEM or I like to think so.
I served this Country HONORABLY for 27 years from 1960-1987 thru MANY highs and lows of our Nation's History INCLUDING serving in Vietnam, and NEVER have I found any time that would allow for us, THE CITIZENS to give up on or ignore our Constitution, Our Bill of Rights or even the Geneva Convention and Never in my 64 years of age have I found a single person who KNEW IT ALL and was RIGHT or CORRECT on everything. People who shout "Conservative" or Liberal" at others or who slander or label others in our Country simply for a different view point DO NOT have a real grasp of what it is to be AN AMERICAN.
WE, THE CITIZENS of the United States WROTE INTO OUR CONSTITUTION's FIRST ADMENDMENT (Bill of Rights) FREEDOM OF SPEECH. We did NOT write into it "you are a traitor, or an appeaser or disloyal or a
what ever the "name of the day" happens to be because you choose to use your Freedom of speech to DISAGREE with your ELECTED Government officials or others regardless of position.
It is direct slap in the face of OUR CONSTITUTION When people do this to those who wish to voice their opinion(s) be they right or wrong.
We, as CITIZENS and VOTERS, should and must hold our ELECTED Officials to the same HIGH standards we desire for ourselves as we struggle in difficult times.
I, personally, have no easy answers for what we are undergoing currently, but I do know we CAN NOT AND SHOULD NOT GIVE UP OUR CONSTITUTION, and OUR RIGHTS (ANY OF THEM) in the name of fearmongering, or something "that might happen" Without a fight.
I am neither a Conservative or Liberal. BUT AM and I AM SURE AS MANY OTHERS ARE, on various issues, Conservative and on other issues Liberal.
When I vote, I vote as an INDEPENDENT Because NO PARTY, regardless of name, knows all nor has all the answers to everything.
I disagree with the Iraq debacle we are currently in because OUR LEADERS DID NOT read their History BEFORE we went in. IF they had, They would have KNOWN that the present Iraq was CREATED by Britain AFTER WWI. It NEVER WAS a complete country as we see it now, so now we have the parts pulling apart again, THE VERY SAME as we saw in YUGOSLAVIA when the Cold War ended, (another made up country). Or the many various countries that were "FORCED INTO" the Soviet Union after WWII and are now again separate or separating from Russia.
A very OLD and TRUE adage " If you don't learn from History, You are doomed to repeat it."
Let us, by all means, have discourse about Iraq, or all other tough issues on hand that need out attention and even discourse about our government officials, (at all levels) and our Congress or various Houses of State Legislature or other elected officials; but let us, as Citizens, do it in the TRUE SPIRIT of Americanism by treating each other with RESPECT as we do so.
Thank You,

Posted by: Jim Miller | September 16, 2006 01:56 PM

Great thread. Nice to see most of us here are interested in a dialouge, and not mud slinging.

Politics is a pendulum, and this administrations pendulum is starting to swing back.

The question is- once the dems have control back, what will they use it for? Retribution or recovery? The time has come for one party (pubs or dems, doesn't matter) to step up and PROVE that they have the American people as thier first priortity by ending this tit for tat childish behavior we've had to endure ever since Watergate.

Yes, this admin has destroyed much in the name of keeping us "safe". Do I feel safer? Do you? We msut demand a Government that will be honest, and treat us as intelligent adults.

Hopefully future generations will learn that this is government one gets when the PS2 or X-box console is more imprtant then a 10 min trip to a voting booth

Posted by: bbssteve | September 16, 2006 02:01 PM

I love the reply, "Typical liberal reporter" Now that is a brilliant reply. NOT
And to the one stating the majority is on Bushs' side. What rock have you been living under?
It is the military declaring the stalemate in Anbar not the media. Wake up sheeple your covers have been pulled.
Bush is the worst president EVER.
If we allow trials with "Secret evidence"
then we have lost our morals we are no longer America.

Posted by: spinslayer | September 16, 2006 03:10 PM

What is the value of the men and women that have fought and died for all of the freedoms we the American people enjoy and who benefit from their sacrifice today? If we believe that the 3000 people that died on September 11th have enough net worth to enable the president to torture and spy on the American people, than all of their sacrifice up until September 11th2001, will have been in vane! What exchange rate is our president using? I for one do not see the value of the 3000 people who died on September 11th to be worth more than that of the people who gave their lives and sacrificed all they had to obtain the freedoms we have now! Are we really willing to turn a blind eye to the kind of in human treatment of prisoners the president and his associates are more than ready to dish out on these people? Can we sit idly by and justify the can of mentality that would not preserve life and liberty and justice for all, and not just Americans or people we chose to have elevated to our way of life but all peoples from every walk of life, from every creed! We have a moral responsibility to preserve the things that our fore fathers fought and died for, or we will do a great injustice to all mankind. How can any American call himself such and really believe that we got here doing the kind of things that this president is asking our congress to allow? We are either about democracy and all it stands for or we are for tyranny and oppression you cant chose to omit certain parts of the constitution because it doesn't fit your plan, its either we believe in our system and stand by it or we throw it out and start over. Stop trying to throw a shroud over your action or inactions and start thinking for yourself and ask what you stand for!

Posted by: night watchmen | September 16, 2006 03:15 PM

MARK: You asked if any of us reacted with disbelief to the latest from Dubbayuh; I have been in disbelief since the U.S. Supreme Court gave the Presidency to him !! And my disbelief was deepened when the slim majority of voters (apparently) gave him another four years to destroy the world. Wonders will never cease. I'm glad that I am in my twilight years.

Posted by: Jack in Pa. | September 16, 2006 04:37 PM

Re: "After reading most of the comments posted on this topic, one thing really jumps out at me. Those people who oppose Bush's torture plan have usually written calmly, using reason and logic to support their position. Those who approve have mostly been shrilly screaming 'liberals,' and warning us that we are doomed if we don't blindly follow this president."

Good observation. Did you also notice that those who support Bush's position can't spell, don't use decent grammar, and are generally inarticulate?

I guess it goes with the territory.

Posted by: KFJ | September 16, 2006 06:41 PM

Jack in Pa. --

You said: "I have been in disbelief since the U.S. Supreme Court gave the Presidency to him !!"

Yes! My experience, as well. And now he's even turned on the very idiots who put him in office. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you . . .

Posted by: KFJ | September 16, 2006 06:44 PM

Ashlely boudreaux said it best We are suppose to be one nation UNDER GOD with liberty and Justice for ALL. Where is our humanity? Some people put lables on others liberal , demorcrat , republican, we are first and foremost HUMAN BEINGS CREATED BY GOD ABOVE.We are to live a CHRIST-LIKE LIFE.
THERE IS ONE FAMILY OF GOD OF WHICH THERE ARE MANY DIVERSE MEMBERS. We should live our lives aware of our oneness with God our creator and with our brothers and sisters ALL OVER THE WORLD.Now what do we have in this country? The patriot act stomping all over our first amendment rights , the Common Article 3 fiasco ,whats next? The administration will start pointing its finger at americans who speak out for what is right and moral and call them a terrorist.You'll start seeing your neighbor disappearing because of their views which for now they have a constitutional right to speak their mind.WE NEED TO GET IN TOUCH WITH OUR REPRESENTATIVES AND SPEAK OUT AGAINST THE PATRIOT ACT AND THE COMMON ARTICLE 3 AND TELL THEM AS AMERICAN CITIZENS AND CHRISTIANS THAT WE WILL NOT STAND FOR INHUMANITY OR OUR CONSTITIONAL RIGHTS BEING STRIPPED FROM US.

Posted by: michelle bosack | September 17, 2006 04:34 AM

I admit that I stand in appalling ignorance. Can someone answer these questions for me:

Sixth commandment: "Thou shalt not kill." There are no exceptions or extenuating circumstances listed. How do the Christians who support the president and the president himself justify breaking this commandment? Why aren't they confessing sin and asking forgiveness?

"Blessed are the peacemakers." "Blessed are the meek." From whom among those in power do we see any striving to reach these "blessed" states?

"Love thine enemy. Bless them that curse thee." Who among the powerful advocates this approach?

"Turn the other cheek." Who in power has proposed or executed anything other than creating havoc and destruction in other places in the name of the "War on Terrorism"?

I'm afraid I must now break one of the Christian values by which I have always tried to abide: "Judge not lest ye be judged." I find those who support the current administration and its actions in the name of Christian faith to be blatant hypocrits, betrayers of Jesus' teachings, and in no position to claim a Christian witness. I suggest a deep soul-searching until heartfelt humility is reached and such arrogance has been properly, permanently punctured.

Posted by: hypocrisy_alarm | September 18, 2006 05:50 AM

Folks, there are two books out that explain how we got into the Iraq war and why it went so terribly wrong.

The first book--THE GREATEST STORY EVER SOLD--was written by veteran NY Times critic and author Frank Rich and is a devastating polemic on how the Bush administration was blinded by a faith based belief in the tenets of a neoconservative ideology that it is America's destiny to impose upon the world our social, economic, political, and yes, religious values. That explains the "how".

The second book--IMPERIAL LIFE IN THE EMERALD CITY--was written by Rajiv Chandrasekaran, assistant managing editor of the Washington Post and Bureau Chief in Iraq's Green Zone. It details the sorry tale of how cronyism, ideology and loyalty to George W. Bush was the guiding principle for hiring the people in the Coalition Provisional Authority who would be tasked with turning Iraq into a little, model America as envisioned by neoconservative ideologues, right down to the standard application of a flat tax, a wall street-like stock market and a culture based on the narrow values of the religious right in America. It is an eviscerating condemnation of how trying to manage a nation using faith based ideological precepts can lead to a calamity.

Both books also look at how these same narrow, faith based ideological principles led to the catastrophic mishandling of the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. From the awarding of the Medal of Freedom to George Tenet for his role in legitimizing the bogus intelligence used in the runup to war to the infamous "You're doing a heckova job Brownie!" comment, it devasatatingly uncovers the Bush management style involving the hiring of loyalists and cronies who fall on their swords when things fall apart, when faith succombs to reality.

If you want to know the how and why of this administration's disastrous decisionmaking consequences for all of us, read these two books.

Posted by: Jaxas | September 18, 2006 11:00 AM

This president is not serious about winning this war, if he was he would fire the incompetents and find someone who could do things the right way. Ike fired over 250 people when he was president, if you can't do the job get out of the way. They are not doing the job.

Posted by: michael in arizona | September 18, 2006 11:12 PM

After going through some of the links here http://www.faithfreedom.org/
I once felt may be agression is required and that govt. is right,
but on giving second thought, can we really curb so much hate with force and agression? I think we need to plan things better and findout alternative long sighted plan to tackle this problem. May be spreading love, scientific education and understanding somehow in those people can help, how? - is really a challenge! if someone has some good suggestions plz do let us all know...

Posted by: Nitin | September 19, 2006 09:55 PM

question Bush on them doing extraordinary rendition, many european lawmakers are up in arms about this and so should the american people be.it goes to the heart of international crimes,why isnt this being addressed.? bush just admitted to having suspected terrorist in SECRET CIA PRISONS around the world, that are being transported to Guatanamo bay, and what about Mr. masri, mr arar and abu omar who were extraordinary renditioned/ie kidnapped and whisked off to other countries to prisons with harsher interrogation methods along with quite a few others , some without the countries knowledge that this was being done,and then they were let go after YEARS of captivity, due to mistaken identity and no criminal activity found, and had their lives ripped apart , turned upside down without even so much as an apology. And what about mr William Deagle an American citizen who was falsely accused after his home was INVADED under false pretenses and then had guns pointed at his head! Is this JUSTICE I would like to see something done about this.At the very least get Bush to talk about this and not SQUIRM HIS WAY OUT OF IT.Read hamden vs rumsfeld. We as Christians cannot standby and allow this to happen to anyone/ WE have got to stand up for what is right and let our voices be heard. I urge anyone who is a TRUE CHRISTIAN to get intouch with their representatives .Check out the aclu website on bush wanting to wiretapp AMERICANS, WAKE UP PEOPLE YOUR RIGHTS ARE BEING STRIPPED/ROBBED FROM YOU.

Posted by: michelle bosack | September 21, 2006 01:58 PM

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