You'll know why I had to do what I did

I thought that Jack asked Kate if she went to her funeral. I was thinking it was Juliet's.

At first I was also thinking that Juliet was in the coffin, since Kate had that strong "Why would I go" reaction. However, the funeral director said that no one showed up and unless things went really wonky, Juliet's sister was alive and definitely would have gone to the funeral. This makes me lean more heavily to the "Ben in the coffin" theory.

Could it have been Walt in the coffin? Or Michael? Why a black neighborhood?

I was sad to see Charlie go, too, Jen! I am not one of the Hobbit-haters on this blog.

What will we do for seven months?

Major questions raised:

Was Jack just delusional from drugs when he asked to bring his father down to see who was drunker? Because his father WAS Chief of Surgery, and if this new bald guy is now the Chief, then maybe Jack's father isn't alive. Did the new Chief say something like, "I can't do that" when Jack demands they get Christian from upstairs?

In all the flashBACKS, we have the sense that the characters are remembering those past events as they go about their island antics in the "present." Are the flashFORWARDS available to them, too? Can Jack SEE those experiences as he's leading them to the tower?

Where does Moses lead his followers? That is, what does the tower represent in a Biblical interpretation? And if Jack's Moses, who is Ben? And Locke?

Any answers from my fellow Losties?

Liz: May explain why he didn't try to swim out through that window that was clearly large enough for him.

J. Wood: I wondered about that, because it seemed like he might have made it through the portal -- unless the rush of water was too much, and/or Charlie had just accepted that if he didn't die and fulfill Desmond's flash, they wouldn't make it off the island.

More to the point, why didn't he go on the other side of the door with Desmond before the grenade went off -- he had time to do it.

Re: Kate's lack of freckles in the flash-forward scene. Kate has quite obviously been make-up free on the island, and I think the lack of freckles was just from a foundation, because she looked all pretty and made up now that she was back int he "real" world. I also think the coffin's was Ben's, especially if Jack, because of his desperation to go get back to the island, thinks that his actions on the island previously caused Ben to die back in the real world. Just a thought.

Okay, I may be getting way ahead of myself here, but when I looked at the screengrabs (zoomed in) of the newspaper clipping, it looked like it said something about the body of J____ (fold in the paper) ___entham. This made me think of Jeremy Bentham, the English philosopher (certainly not the first one on the show). Bentham was perhaps best known for his concept of the Panopticon. From Wikipedia:

"The Panopticon is a type of prison building designed by English philosopher Jeremy Bentham in the late eighteenth century. The concept of the design is to allow an observer to observe (-opticon) all (pan-) prisoners without the prisoners being able to tell if they are being observed or not, thus conveying a "sentiment of an invisible omniscience." In his own words, Bentham described the Panopticon as "a new mode of obtaining power of mind over mind, in a quantity hitherto without example."

Sounds a bit like the island, especially all of the hatches. Also, it would be funny if the character in the coffin were named Jeremy Bentham because he requested that his body be preserved after death. It's still on display in London.

Anyone else notice on that losteastereggs site they said that the name of the funeral home, "Hoffs Drawlar" is an anagram for Flash Forward?

Those producers have too much time on their hands as do most of us that obsess about this show!!

But I wouldn't have it any other way!!

Show jumped the shark. The drama was driven by the question "will (can) they get off island?" Now, the closest they can come is "will (can) they avoid getting off the island" which is a jarring switch and also just not any fun.

Kathleen, I had a similar thought, given the neighborhood and no turnout and Kate's comments, I thought Michael. If Ben was honest with him and he got away, perhaps he was coerced into helping whoever Naomi was working for to find the island again.

However, the screenshots of the article in Jack's hand look to have a name that doesn't come any where near Michael's. It might be someone we get introduced to between the end of Season 3 and the time of the flash forward.

What I don't get is Locke backing down at the end.

I completely agree re Kate and no freckles. I have freckles (though not a lot and not very pronounced) and when I wear foundation, you can't see them.

I first wondered why Charlie didn't swim out the window, but when there was another shot of him in the room - it looked like his shoulders were far too broad to fit through the hole.

Was that real Walt? How would smokey monster morph into an older Walt (he definitely looked like he had grown up a lot) - Did Michael and Walt ever really leave the island? It seemed to me like the Walt, considered special, was saving Locke, the other special one.

I think that, as time moves forward on the island, it moves backwards in real life. When Jack and Kate left the island, they returned to a time in their lives that was before the plane crash, when Jack still had a brown beard and not a grey one, and his father was still alive.
That would also open up the possibility that they have been on the island multiple times. Crash on the island, get rescued, go back in time, crash on the island again. I'm not sure whether they realize it again, but this would really give new meaning to Kate's "Here we go again" last episode.
The screencaps on Lost Easter Eggs look like the obituary is about J___ ____angham. My thinking is that we don't know who this is yet, but this might be the one person who has the power to end whatever time loop they're stuck in.
Also, if you look at the screencaps on Lost Media, it looks like a regular-sized coffin to me.

Charlie could have gotten out of the porthole, could have gone out through the door before the grenade, etc., but chose not too. He knew that in order for Desmond's vision to come true (and Claire be rescued), he had to die.

However, there's one technical problem with the drowning scene. Since the room would have to be air tight in order to hold in/out water, the water inside the room would have risen to the top of the porthole, then stopped, due to the pressure of the air in the top of the room. This is the same reason why the opening to the station (through which Charlie entered) didn't flood the rest of the station.

Oh well, I guess they didn't think of that.

Section 506, I completely disagree. Putting this new twist in, we have no idea where the show is going and how it will end (instead of assuming the end of the show would be the typical Hollywood ending of rescue). Now the question is how do they get off the island, when do they get off the island, who gets off the island (as Jack and Kate are the only ones we KNOW made it), etc.

I'm wondering though...did Kate's past crimes just disappear when she showed back up in LA? You would think she would still be wanted by the police, no?

Just saw on lost easter eggs, the name of the funeral parlor was HOFFS/DRAWLAR which is ana anagram for FLASH FORWARD - whoa!

Jack's flash forward: clearly reminiscent of early references to Lost Horizon & Shangrila. The Lost Island seems far from the idyllic place of a Shangrila, but the island did create a true community, beautiful setting, even though beset with the adversarial Others and Smoky. Jack clearly has the kind of depression related to the loss of the adventure and comradeship of his adventure. This is sometimes seen in returning military, and was somewhat seen in the crew of the Endurance (Shackelford's expedition to Antartica that was stranded for 3 years).
Many of the men never found any activity after their rescue that was even remotely as significant as the Endurance experience. Simmilar experiences also reported by people with out-of-body experiences, who return to real life.
A quibble: the directors clearly wanted us to see the Jack parts as flashbacks, and I thought he might have been returning from his Thailand adventure from earlier this season. The new Chief also created this sense, as it appeared from their conversation that Jack had been gone a good while, so his explanation of the long weekend flights later didn't really explain Jack's apparent "absence" from the hospital adequately. When Jack was in the bad neighborhood, I actually expected him to encounter Anna Lucia some way (if it had been a flashback). I had the sense through the whole second season that Jack and Anna Lucia had somehow or crossed paths in L.A. before that drink in the airport.

As to the action on the island last night, a great show, with explosions, intrigue, betrayal, special effects, and the wonderful Hurley surprise! We cheered! Plus mother and daughter reunited.

As to Charlie, husband again noted the echoes of Lord of the Ring, where the "humans" create a battle to distract the evil forces while the noble Hobbit undergoes the ordeal to "turn off" the evil power. In this case, Charlie the hobbit was turning off the jamming signal, while the battle on the beach took place, any many Others (Orcs) were killed, with exciting battle scenes.

I wonder if the body in L.A. was Michael, with Kate's anger aimed at his betrayal of them, and his murder of Libby & Anna Lucia. The neighborhood would sort of make sense and the coffin size would be about right.
I think Jack could be sad for him, with Kate still holding a grudge.

I for one, was blown away by last nights episode. I think that for many people there was a lot of overspeculation/mega-hype and compared to that, it may have been a let down. But I think that what the writers left us with is stronger than what we were imagining two weeks ago.

I dont think Jack's dad was alive during the flashbacks, I think the show is too straight forward for that. I respectfully disagree with J. Woods about Desmond changing the future/present/past with every vision. The continuity of space/time needs to be somewhat structured for the foundation of the show to remain relevant. If we start bouncing around to alternate realities, the LOST fans are going to have a hard time making sense of anything that has happened since the Pilot episode.

I think one of the main revelations of the show has been our relation to the world around us, and how we are apart of something bigger. The end of season one opened us up to a larger community on the island with "the Others." Season two showed us that the island was meant for a bigger purpose with the Dharma Initiative. Season three, for lack of a simpler explination shows us that there is someone "bigger" than Ben (i.e. Jacob).

LOST Producers have already mentioned that Jacob will be a major character in Season 4. Perhaps we will be introduced to the "bigger" conflict between Jacob and the Freighter, and why exactly Jacob, Locke and Ben are so afraid of making that telephone call. I hope so anyway. See you all next year!

I hope they don't leave Hawaii -- that location adds so much wonder to the story.

I agree that the end was more of a "Whoah," than a "WOW." And it's killing me that they didn't answer the two pivital questions from Season 2:

Why did that statue have 4 toes?
Why was Libby in the assylum?

I think Jack mentioning his father doesn't mean his father's still alive. I think it means that Jack has slipped so far into his psychosis that the "reality" of his world doesn't match up to the empirical. His father's dead; notice the looks he gets from the people he mentions his father to.

My wife's never watched "Lost" and I was explaining the flashback structure to her. "But what if this [Bearded Jack] is the present, and the island scenes are in the past." Ho ho, I chuckled.

I thought Oceanic Airlines had ceased operation as a result of the crash, yet Jack was on an Oceanic flight in the flashforward. Another clue that past/present/future is being altered?

BTW, the Simpsons' home town of Springfield has officially been acknowledged as Springfield, Kentucky.

Another thing. Kate mentioned that he would be wondering where she was, when talking to Jack. At first I was thinking Sawyer but now I'm thinking she got together with someone else. How gross would it be if it were Ben or Locke?

Props to Charlie for letting Des know that it's not Penny's boat and doing what he felt needed to be done. To Sawyer for getting rid the other, the blind trust these people were having was becoming tiring. To Jack for leading, although I think that's gonna come back to bite him. To Sayid for just being Sayid and to the Hurlster for that move with the van. Hopefully this ushers in a new age of Losties kicking butt in the a.m. and taking names in the p.m.

Charlie! Swim out of the porthole, Dude!

Great lines from the night:

Rose - "Jack, if you tell me Live together, die alone, I'm going to punch you in your face!"

Hurley- "Dude, I saved them all."

How about some props for Hurley the hero?!? Good for you, man!

Not a spectacular show, IMHO. It was enjoyable, but didn't provide the Holy-whatever moment (Jen) I was looking for. I suspected the flash-forward thing from the very beginning when Jack jumped at the turbulence on the plane. I thought it was interesting but I always figured they'd get off the island someday. And I think Jack was delerious on drugs and longing for the past when he demanded they bring his father down to see how drunk he was - no altered reality.

The only interesting part to me is now this ship.... if not Penny's then whose? Is Ben right? Do the Others and Losties end up teaming up against another hostile force coming to the island? (Live together, die alone?) Was Penny able to locate the island through her brief confab with Charlie?

Sorry that more about Jacob wasn't set up in this show too, since the producers say he's going to become so integral, a tease for that would have been nice. And I guess were supposed to assume Walt told Locke what everyone was up to?

Maybe I was expecting a little too much, but it left me feeling flat. But I have until Januray to think about it I guess, and get jazzed up for its return!

Am I the only one who thinks the coolest part of last night's episode was when Sayid killed the Other with his feet? I mean, I loved the whole thing, but that was awesome!

Over the last few weeks, we were led to believe that five people (only) were going to die before the end of the season. I lost count on all the bodies last night. What gives?

Definitely Ben in the coffin - The funeral director said "Friend or Family" to which Jack replied "Neither". Plus, no one showed up. Who would!? Since Jack had the intent to kill Ben, maybe he was just going to make sure he was really dead. If he was telling Kate in the flash forward that they never should have left the island and that they had to go back, maybe his discovery of Ben's death (& powers/connections) made him realize that he never would be able to get back and that is what (almost) made him go over the edge?

OK was I the only that noticed that our little Walt wasn't so little anymore?

Naturally the kid playing him aged so I suppose the character had to also, but I wonder if that was intended?

It seems as though he looked about 10 when he left & now he's looks about 15!

Liz and Jen - how can you trust Juliet? Every time I look at that impassive expression it just looks like pure evil to me. She's Ben's twin.

Walt was huge -- he was supposed to be 10 when he crashed, but I believe the actor is about 15 or so in real life.

I am wondering if the writers will work that into the story -- For example, using the whole time-loop or alternate reality theory... or just ignore the fact that the 10-year-old Walt actually looks like a teenager. Walt was shown wearing the same clothes as when we last saw him.

I think the apparent consequences of exercising free will suggest a Garden of Eden scenario on the island. If you put your faith in the island it takes care of you but if you make your own decisions it punishes you. Future Jack seems to be acting as if he's realized that he was essentially banished from the Garden of Eden because of his own decisions. Also I was intrigued by Ben's reference to a Temple. I think Lost is going Biblical.

I simply can't believe the writers and directors of a TV show would make the plotline as deep and thick and innocuous, based on such hardcore references to philosophy and theory, as the blog hosts and co-called experts intimate.

After all, it's still television, and it's still a mainstream audience, and if you're going to carry their interest for six years, you just can't come back with a final storyline based on hyper-kooky theories, musings and back-references that the majority of your viewership has never heard or really gives a crap about.

In the end, I think it's all much simpler, with reference points built in as teasers and nuance. But the conclusion of the series has to come around to a simple, fully explainable, uncomplicated thesis.

Otherwise, your vested audience looks up, kinda like they did at the end of "Seinfeld," and say, "wtf?

Re: J___ ____angham.

Jacob?

The reference to the Temple and Walt's reappearance was very Matrix for me. John saying he can't move his legs and Walt telling him that he can was very Morpheus/Neo to me, mind of matter, and the Temple in Matrix was where the members of Zion felt they were the safest from the outside intruders.

Anyone else think that the ship was Penny's dad's? Many thought last season Mr. Widmore had a relationship with Dharma. It would also explain why Naomi had the picture of Desmond and Penny.

If the kid who appeared to Locke was indeed Walt, why did he appear SO much older? Theoretically, he should just be little bit older - like a month or so - if one show approximately equals one day on the island. that kid looked a couple of years or so older. . .

left me feeling like I did when China Beach wound down.

Don't people get freckles from too much sun? Maybe they went away when she started living in a house. My first guess about the coffin was that it was Rose because 1) black neighborhood, 2) she had terminal cancer before arriving on the island. Although, there would have to be some other plot point for no one to mourn her. She is clearly the smartest person on the whole island.

Ok folks, stop worrying about the size of the coffin. You're looking for clues that aren't there. I am pretty sure that coffins come in one standard size unless you were to have one custom made and that funeral home didn't look terribly upscale.

Based on the neighborhood and lack of turnout at the funeral, I think it's Sawyer in the coffin. Note that it was a standard, cheapo pine coffin.

The way things were left between Kate and Sawyer, there is now obvious disdain between them.

And when Kate says, "he's going to wonder where I am," I think it's her kid, courtesy of Sawyer's li'l swimmers.

Best line of the night: Reunited mother's first words to her daughter: "Help me tie him up?" Ah, mother-daughter bonding...yes, pun intended...

Jack is in the coffin. That is why he said to the funeral parlor director that he wasn't either family of friend of the deceased, and why he did not need or want to look in the coffin when offered.Jack wants to go back to the island because he really is not supposed to be in the same parallel uiverse with his parallel self; Jack return to civilization may have actually killed his parallel self....

The site that Liz mentioned has a screen-shot of the newspaper clipping and it says "The body of Jo..." You can clearly see the Jo on the newspaper. John Locke is the only person I can think of whose names starts like that.

RickNmd - you didn't get the end of Seinfeld? I thought it was brilliant! I think everyone says "the American public" can't handle complexity as though we geniuses are the only ones who can truly appreciate the show. It has many levels and for the most part the highbrow stuff escapes me. But Charlie and Sayid were bad ass "Hiro"s, and I'll be watching for three more years.

what about when Charlie died how the porthole made a saint halo around his head? When Charlie was hung the first time and "died" the rope around his head formed a halo as well...so was Charlie always destined to die as a saint? a hero?

What did Sawyer say when he shot Tom? I don't remember...

I think the newspaper clipping also mentions that this person is from New York. Ben was born in the Portland area.

Does anyone know Michael's last name? Maybe Michael is his middle name and his real first name starts with a J?

Tricia--No, you were not the only one. Not only did I find it awesome but so friggin SEXY! I love me some Sayid!

I would like to note that I am glad our three shooter didn't get killed (especially Jin & Sayid).

J(o)____ ___angham, people. Unless someone has had their name legally changed, there's no way it's Jack Shepherd, Sawyer (James Ford), John Locke, Rose, Michael, or Ben Linus. It has to be someone we haven't met yet.

NancyNPDX, yes I did get to the end of "Seinfeld," and like so very many, when it ended, I looked around and said, "that's it? That's what you are giving us? That's your swan song?"

Thanks for nothing.

Linda:
I was watching at home by myself last night and I swear when Sayid did that I yelled "That was friggin' awesome!" Just substitute another word for "friggin'"

hey, jerry said that's seinfeld was -- a show about nothing.

Jack was crying over the newspaper article. Or was he crying because he is a mess now?

Anyone have thoughts on Mikhail's comment to Ben that he thought the two women in the Looking Glass were "on assignment in Canada"?

In Season I, Claire's baby was very significant. That part of the story has been nearly dropped it seems, in favor of _every_ baby being significant. Is Claire's baby going to turn out to be someone special?

There's something that hits me about the show (and the rampant speculation that surrounds it) false assumptions and jumping to conclusions.

Desmond assumed that Penny was on the boat.
Jack assumes that he's doing the right thing (always).

That seems to lead them down wrong paths.

As far as the 'game' changing. We're now past the halfway point, we're closer to the end than the begning.....so flashbacks become flashforwards.

My husband and I scrutinized the screenshot of the newspaper clipping for a few minutes last night. The headline says something like "Man found -------- downtown loft"

From what we could make out and concur with what others posted on the lost easter eggs site, the article continues:

The body of J------ ---------ham of New York was found shortly after 4 a.m. in the ----- of Grand Avenue.

In the next graph, something about The Tower and a beam?

That was all we could decipher but could we really expect them to clearly show the full article? That wouldn't be any fun, now would it?

I think it could be either Locke or Ben in the coffin (which I do think is a regular sized coffin, in one screenshot from above with Jack placing his hand on it, it looks like Jack could fit into it as well).

Michael could be an option and he is from New York.

I just don't know but it is very intriguing.

About Walt: Yes, it also bothered me that he appeared so much older. Obviously, in real life the actor has aged over the past couple of years but too quickly for the time that has lapsed on the island. Surely the pridcuers realize this so I would not be surprised that they work that into the story as well.

Kate was very made up at the end. I wondered if "He" was Sawyer as well. Still stumped on the whole fugitive thing but maybe we'll get some answers eventually.

Hurley was awesome! I also loved the bodies-flying-through the air explosions for some reason.

I, too, will miss Charlie, though he had his irritating moments he never bothered me enough to want to see him go. I think he probably realized he could have escaped but was holding onto the hope that Desmond's vision was correct and his death would help save Claire and Aaron. He had to take the chance.

All in all... I was very pleased with the finale and anxiously awaiting Jan. '08!

Bits and pieces from the screencap of the obit that Jack was holding...

"Los Angeles
Man found d[ead in]
Downtown loft

The body of J[o]____ [L]antham of New York was _____ shortly after 4 a.m. in the ______ block of Grand Avenue.

The _________ a [door]man at The T____ ____ ____ ____ loud noises ____ ______'s loft, nota_____ ____________ly _he Coney _____ ____ ____-recovered _____ tten____ the ____ a beam in the ______ _____.
_____ room _____ ______________ cond________"

Not very conclusive.

dur, Producers, not pridcuers.... sorry!

I was intrigued by the Juliet/Sawyer dialogue before they got to the beach. He asked why she was going back and she said "karma. why are you going?" and he didn't have an answer. but now i wonder more about his karmic debt and whether or not he was supposed to kill somebody else and what that means for his character. granted i thought that charlie killing ethan would doom him as well and it didn't. he still got to be a hero in the end.

re: Section 506 - The question has never been "will (can) they get off island?" so much as "will (can) the LOST be FOUND?" I esp like the double-entendre of 'will' in view of the fate vs free-will them of the show.

Hopefully they'll post my theory (submitted to the 3 pm chat) on the desire to be rescued is a fantasy about giving up responsiblity for one's life. So by being rescued from the island, Jack rejects self-determination and remains lost after all.

I was intrigued by the Juliet/Sawyer dialogue before they got to the beach. He asked why she was going back and she said "karma. why are you going?" and he didn't have an answer. but now i wonder more about his karmic debt and whether or not he was supposed to kill somebody else and what that means for his character. granted i thought that charlie killing ethan would doom him as well and it didn't. he still got to be a hero in the end.

Kate was driving a Volvo when she met Jack at the airport. Somehow, this makes me think that she did not end up with Sawyer...

Michael was a Construction Contractor right? Maybe he was hit in the head with a beam and died?

Couple of notes:

1) Jin all the sudden speaks all this english?
2) Who else was annoyed when Tom announces that he "shot the sand 3 times" instead of shooting the prisoners?
3) Anyone notice on Kate's voicemail when Jack kept calling her phone, the number was a 305 or 315 area code? That's not LA.
4) Jack was definitely greying in his bearded stubble. But in the flash-forward, he's all dark and lovely.
5) In the coffin - my money's on Ben. Although the parlour area was a little shady.
6) McPatchy just doesn't die....
7) Penny just HAPPENS to be sending a signal out when Charlie is there?

I counted 14 deaths:
7 gun-toting Others in the initial attack
3 more Others in Hurley's van-page
2 female Others in the Looking Glass station
1 Naomi
1 Charlie

That's certainly more than the 5 that was rumored before the finale.
Does this mean that the balance of power will swing in the Lostties favor in Season 4?

When did Naomi die? I must have missed something??

but was Naomi really dead? All we know is she got a knife in the back (symbolic in some way?) and from other "deaths" on Lost I don't know if this is conclusive evidence.

Call me a simpleton, but I think the whole plotline is fairly linear. I agree with a few posters that the whole rid in the space/time continuum would get too crazy for the viewership. Last night we found out some folks got off the island. That's the only thing we do know. Jack clearly can't handle it...either for something he did or didn't do in the time between calling for help and getting rescued. Kate, on the surface, looks to be handling things much better but still is troubled by the events.

The next year will likely be much like the storylines on "The Nine" (although it was only on for a few months this season) - telling back and front stories at the same time. Obviously, they've been doing this for three years so now we'll get back-back stories (pre-crash), back-stories (island), and front-stories (post-rescue).

I've coined a phrase for the off-the-island scenes featuring a bearded Dr. Shepard last night: "Flash-jacks."

Fellow Lost Obsessors:

The answer is obvious. They get off the island, but in order for that to happen, everything that brought them to the island has be reversed (Jack's dad isn't dead, Kate didn't kill her stepfather, Jack and Kate meeting in secret, etc). The next three seasons will be about what goes on when they get back, with flashforwards to them contemplating the virtue of them leaving the island.

One problem with my theory: Who is Kate referring to when she says, "I have to get back before he notices." A son? Her fiance? Sawyer (that wouldn't work with this theory though)?

Why do people keep saying that Jack's beard in the flashforward was dark? Everyone in the group I watched with commented on how he had so much grey in it. Maybe some people need better televisions. :-)

If Jack's father is still alive, wouldn't it be interesting (and twisted) if Kate ended up married to Jack's father?

Copyright- You're about three years too late. TWOP has been using the term "Flash-Jack" to refer to any Jack-centric flashback since the first season. Perhaps you can work with D. Trump to trademark the phrase "you're fired".

1 - The island has some source of power or healing or whatever (haven't figured out EXACTLY what it is at this point)that has drawn people to it for centuries.

2 - The Others are the lineage of people who "protect" the island. They apparently can't die, don't age, etc. (or do so much differently than "mortals")

3 - Throughout time, the Others have managed to protect the island and fight off the outsiders.

4 - Darma was the most recent and best equipped attempt to study/harness the powers of the island (the Black Rock ship and the Big Foot statue worshipers being earlier groups).

5 - The Others couldn't take out Darma alone so they recruited Ben as a "believer" and had him wipe out Darma and set him as at de facto leader. But he's still mortal

6 - The Darma group who wasn't on the island had gotten enough info to know the island holds something really important. I'm banking on it being something they could use for world domination (new weapon, fountain of youth, healing, etc.). So they want the island back to exploit its powers. My money is on Penny's dad being is charge of this "new" Darma group.

7 - Desmond was "sacrificed" in the guise of a sailing race to find the island. (Missing some details here, but Hurley's girlfriend who gave Desmond the boat might have also somehow been used to lure the plane to island as well...hmmm)

8 - Penny found out about her dad's plans and has been looking for Desmond herself.

9 - Once the Oceanic flight went down and the island gave off the huge pulses of magnetic energy, Darma picked them up and sent the ship/Naomi to find them. They'd have to have the resources to stage a plane crash and recovery, but let's assume they do.

10 - Since Ben's losing his grip on keeping control, the Other's picked the best and brightest of the Losties to be the new leader. That's Locke.

Kelli - Where did Moses lead his people? Out of captivity (in Egypt), through the Red Sea, thence through the desert, to the Promised Land, though he himself was denied entry to the Promised Land.

As for the tower, it could possibly represent the Tower of Babel - built by humans who cooperated with one another to reach the heavens; but the nerve of them irritated God, who struck it down and then made it impossible for the humans to communicate with one another by making them speak in many different languages.

Best Episode Ever!

Now, my old theory of "other-others" is revived based on what Ben said, that there are prople trying to find the island and they are on the ship and on Penny saying it was not her boat (Naomi lied). I expect season 4 to be the Lostie/Others working to fight off the other-others as they try to secure the island for themselves.

Ben said he killed 40 people to secure the island, meaning the Dharma village I presume, but Dharma had to be bigger than 40 people. The rest of Dharma is trying to find the island Ben and crew kicked them off of and hid from the outside world. And Dharma seems very fascist to me. Bad people. That makes Ben, in my mind, a good guy who uses very bad methods to achieve his aims. That is probably why the Others are ready to dump Ben.

Locke's appearance was very strange. It seemed to be an afterthought for the writers. Walt dod look old, as he is in real life.

The flash forward was interesting but I did not find it that important. I really do not care what happens after they get off the island because for me that will be the end of the show. But imagine that they were not rescued but remained and joined the Others. Jack could have been cast out while Kate is actively working for the Others and was worried about whether Jacob knew where she was. The Volvo points to the wealth Dharma related people seem to have ... though I like Acura better :^) Oh yea, and for who was in the coffin ... someone Jack thought more people should have come to see off, someone he though had earned a lot of respect but evidently had not. That is probably Desmond. A person who for their entire life had been screwing up and making enemies, just like Jack.

I realize why (from a plot perspective) why people feel the need to be so cryptic, but why doesn't Locke just TELL Jack why he isn't meant to get them off the island? Does Locke not know, and just taking it all based on his faith in the island?

A couple of things...

Jack and Kate make no reference to the gender of the person in the coffin, contrary to Jen and Liz's speculation. It was just "the funeral."

McPatchy released the grenade only a second or less before it blew up, so unless he is really Rasputin, then I think he'll be pretty dead.

Regarding the flooded room, the room will fill with water. The Looking Glass station was about 40 feet underwater. At that depth, the air in the room will be exposed to a water pressure of about 30 psi. Air is compressible, so the room will flood past the window.

Locke can't spell it out because the point is that Jack is suppose to make his OWN DECISION. Not so much about what the choice is, it's more deciding to take the leap of faith, acting on belief rather than on rational basis.

I'm having an exceptionally busy work day today, so unfortunately I won't be able to get through the entire analysis and myriad of responses already posted here, but I wanted to say THANKS to Liz, Jen and J for their extra long analysis today and the upcoming chat! I admit I was really disappointed initially in the episode but, at least from the first few paragraphs I have read, there is definitely more going on with the season finale than I had originally seen, so I'm beginning to see the light and all is not lost.

I haven't scrolled through all the posts, so this may be old news, but here are two points I thought of after the epidsode last night:

1 - The funeral. The scenes leading up to Jack entering the funeral parlor were made to look as though they were specifically trying to give us clues that the funeral home was in a mostly black part of LA, which makes me think that it wasn't Ben, Locke, Sawyer, etc in that coffin. Michael? Walt? I'm personally leaning towards it being someone we don't know yet.

2 - All through the series, Ben has maintained that he is the good guy and he has definitely been pleading the case recently for not allowing anyone to get off the island. So from the scenes we have seen from the "future", are we now supposed to think that Ben has been right all along because somehow he knows what happens when people leave the island and he's trying to protect them as he's said all along?

So that's my quick two cents, I'm sure most of that has already been suggested and it's killing me I don't have time for scrolling all the posts!

Did Naomi lie? Desmond mistook his vision of a parachutist as being Penny. They find that Naomi has a photo of Des & Penny but I don't remember anyone asking Naomi about that. I recall that Naomi recognizes Des and calls him by name. Naomi also says something about not searching for Oceanic 815 but a search based on a signal (i.e., the hatch explosion?). But did Naomi ever actually mention Penny?

To answer question's question : Sawyer said he shot Tom even though he surrendered because "I didn't believe him." I didn't believe him either, Sawyer. Right on.

When Mikail said "I thought you said the Looking Glass was flooded." Ben paused a long time before he replied "I lied." I wonder if he was lying when he said he lied. Maybe he's aware of the many time loops, and knew it was flooded, or would be.

if someone/the others faked/staged a plane crash off the australia shore somewhere, they won't want the survivors of the plane crash ever popping back up and saying, we aren't really dead! That would reek havoc for the ones who staged it and lied to the world, so they might be on the boat coming to make sure they are actually all dead?

If the name on the obit started with a J, it might be Juliette OR Jacob or even Rousseau. Are there any other Losties with names that start with J?

Timelines:

Did anyone get the sense that the purge happened rather recently, like 5 years before the 2004 crash? Ben stated, "I did something recently..." Before, I was thinking the purge was a decade ago. Also, the gun Locke found was not too rusted, and Hurley's van still ran.

Secondly, Russo - what has she been doing for 16 years! Never seen The Flame, Never seen Alex, never returned to the tower and maybe change the message. ???

The Temple- Liz and Jen -no one seems to have commented much about that reference. A temple seems like a hugh factor for the story line.

If the name on the obit started with a J, it might be Juliette OR Jacob or even Rousseau. Are there any other Losties with names that start with J?

I think Ben paused because he needed to figure out a plan, not because his head was full of interwoven time lines.

If the name on the obit started with a J, couldn't it be Jacob or Juliete or even Rousseau? Any other Losties with names starting with a J?

As for Mikhail's immortality - it looked to me like he was shot with a taser (two leads that seemed to fly out), not a harpoon. I kept wondering why Desmond didn't shoot him to finish him off, or cover him like he did the other bodies. It seemed obvious that he was going to wake up and do some sort of mischief.

SO glad I stopped watching this show . . .

Every time I stick up for the intelligence of the American public I'm proven wrong. Sigh...Hopefully after Lost is cancelled next year, the producers will be able to produce a final movie or something to explain it all.

Thanks guys - it's been great. Type to you next year.

dr:

I agree about the temple. that was the first mention of it that I had ever heard.

Maybe that's where the four-toed giants are...

ENDINGS

As for Seinfeld....the last show ended with the same conversation that started the very first (pilot) episode.

A conversation between Jerry and George about the placement of the button (buttonhole). In the first episode, they were in the diner and in the last in jail with Kramer & Elaine...but the same conversation.

And that is why Jerry said "I feel like we already had this conversation..."

Just an FYI

question, Sawyer said the killing of Tom was for taking Walt off the boat.

Loved last night's episode, but did feel totally depressed that the Losties escape from the island ends in wrecked lives (i.e. Jack). I can't believe that the end result will be so heartbreaking! But after reading the posts and the analysis, I'm feeling a bit more optimistic.

RE: the funeral and etc. The funeral parlor was definitely in a black neighborhood and that has to be of some significance. Has to be. Secondly, I am not so sure that Jack was in L.A. I grew up in SoCal and I really can't think of a bridge in the L.A. area that matches the one Jack was on. Any other CA expats out there with ideas?? Also, the hospital seemed very...old, and my husband remarked that most medicine supply rooms in hospitals have alarms or codes to enter (although I guess Jack would have had the code if he worked there). also didn't notice many (or any) palm trees. And palm trees are all over the L.A. area, 'hood, Beverly Hills and everywhere in between, even at LAX. So not sure if Jack was really in L.A. Just seemed weird to me. Also the neighborhood where the funeral was, also, didn't really seem like the L.A. area. But I could be wrong.

Overall, loved the episode, but really hope we can alter the past so as to arrive, in the end, at a happy future for Jack and the other Losties. BTW, I was totally SHOCKED by the ending myself. It was just so tragic and heartbreaking and unexpected for me. LOVE LOST!!!!

Gotta love Sayid-I hit the TIVO and watched that 2-3 times. I've always loved Sayid and I knew that they weren't killed when the guns went off. My husband laughs at me when I go nuts over Sayid!!

I don't think Lost is headed for cancellation. At its low point this season, it still drew in over 14 million viewers, and has been in the top 15 most watched tv shows.

How does that translate to imminent cancellation?

Timeline again on the purge:

Agruments for a recent purge (5 years out).
1. Dharma still delivering food.
2. Ben's comments.
3. Ben lieing to the others about the outside world and preventing contact as much as possible. How long were Bonnie and Co. in the looking glass awaiting the next order? 2-3 years, maybe, 10, I doubt it, they would be teenagers. It seemd recent from McPatchy's comments that they were in Canada.
4. Perhaps when Des came to the island, then Ben went into hiding?

Other thoughts?

Raoul,

First, what is TWOP?

Second, whatever it is, perhaps it should refer to all Dr. Shepard-centric off-island scenes that occur in the past as "Jack-backs." That will enable us to now now refer to all Dr. Shepard-centric off-island scenes that occur in the future as "flash-jacks."

Since time is apparently just a dimension like space, and therefore the past, present and future are all occurring at once, "TWOP" can easily make this change. Hopefully doing so will not kill any main characters or change the shapes of Ben's glasses.

Lastly, I realize that the fact that the past, present and future are all occuring at once undermines the distinction between "Jack-backs" and "Flash-jacks." However, I'm just tryign to make a silly joke.

What I really want to copyright is Stephen Colbert's name for the Felcity Huffman - William H. Macy couple: Filliam H. Muffman.

dr

I think Rousseau screws your timeline. If she was on a research ship that crashed 16 years ago, why wouldn't she have found the Dharma-ites, and their still-functioning facilities. She didn't go ape-sh!t batty right away on the island, and I also recall she said the Others killed her colleagues.

Furthermore, she found the transmitter pretty fast, and I imagine that the Dharma-ites would not have like their radio tower commandeered by a loopy french woman for 11 years.

Perhaps there was no actual flash-forward in this episode, but a number of flash-backs. I was thinking that maybe the actual time sequence in the show corresponded to Jack in the plane; the LA scenes, etc.; and that he was having flashbacks with regards to what happened in the island.

Darma kept dropping food and giving Ben & Co the info on the Losties because they needed to find the island...

WAIT...strike that. They have to know where the island is or how would they drop the food.?

Damn, now I'm all confused.

HulloMatilda:

I did notice that the flashback theme came during the scenes that are being called flash-forwards, unlike the usual island scene transition-to-flashback.

dr, good call on the temple, I just submitted a question to the chat about it.

CA Expat, there's a bridge that's in like a million movies in LA. It crosses the mighty Los Angeles River (I'm kidding about the mighty part)

LostieLostie, are you sure that Kate didn't say "why would I go to HIS funeral?"?

I think the funeral parlor name, Hoffs/Drawler, an anagram for flash forward, sets us in the future along with Sarah being pregnant.

Rousseau said she killed her team as each got the sickness. Before that, several of them had hiked to the tower. She was seven months pregnant when they arrived on the island, and she gave birth to Alex alone. It is a mystery that she never explored the entire place in all those years, but there were many dangers and she was alone and fearful.

Hey, why can't Jacob be black? Maybe a survivor of the slaver ship.

Also, why is no one making a big deal about Rousseau saying she wouldn't leave the island. If there really is some significance to the difference between those who are trying to leave the island and those who are trying to stay, she has to be key. She's the only person who is working to contact help, but still wanting to stay.

I have to catch up on everyting above, but I'm convinced that Ben is in the coffin (besides, who would come to his funeral? He was born on teh continent, but moved as a child, and knows no one on teh continent since both his parents are dead). Jack would probably go to the funeral b/c he seems to want to get back to the island terribly (I think, mostly, b/c he was happier on the island that with rreality on the mainland). Jack is upset b/c he needed Ben to get back (consider the scene in his apartment with all the maps on teh floor).

Also, I think that the boat is Penny's boat. it's interesting that Ben knows abotu teh group trying to find the island, but I wonder if Ben ever really knew about Desmond and that's why they're looking for hte island. Ben may see them as a threat to their society but they're really only looking for Desmond. Desmond's presence there is independent of the Others and Losties. I think that Penny will use that short transmission as a way to fuel more motivation to find the island, considering someone she doenst' know just said Desmond's name before she did!

I like that we had a future-flash-forward, but for me what gave it away was the cell phone that Jack uses (Moto KRZR -which only came out a few months ago). Which makes me question how long have they been back? I like how they have opened up the show to telling us they get back, but I don't have closure with knowing that they get back. To me, the closure is finally finding out what this island is afterall.

LostieLostie

Her lack of whereabouts makes my point. She never went anywhere or saw anything from her comments. She had never seen the Flame station in 16 years? I think she weirded out in Cerberus territory, hiding from Smokey. She very well could have ignored, bypassed, whatever the Dharma folks. Also, the Others, Richard et 'al, were already there before Dharma and during. If they took Alex 16 years ago, then she grew up in the clan. Question remains is when Ben claimed her as his daughter...he knew about Russeau - which supports your claim. It might make more snes that Ben was incharge at T-16years and took her in/away, but maybe not. Did Russeau recognize Ben as the kidnapper? She did not claim so back in S2 when she captured him, just that he was an other.

mm

I just watched a few scenes again this afternoon, that being one of them. Kate says "why would I go to THE funeral?"

Where did Charlie get that rockin' pen that writes so well underwater?

And more seriously....I too was cheering when Sayid snapped that guys neck and when Sawyer blew Big Tom away. Go Sawyer, he's back! And when Jack beat the crap out of Ben.

I mean how much can a person take? Enough! let's kick some Others ass and get the hell out of here already.

On GP, I would kick Ben's manipulative butt. The minute he opens his mouth you know its lies and manipulation. He's like a svengali or something.

Are we not taking notice of the lost of faith experienced by Locke and the fact that he couldn't move his legs while lying in the pit. He was grabbing his pants leg to move his legs around. It was not until Walt showed up and restored his belief did Locke regain his faith and walk.
Faith.

I think there is more to it than makeup when it comes to Kate's freckles and lack thereof. That comment where she noted that "since when do u call me Kate?" to Sawyer was telling.

Despite the fact that there are new questions that need answering...I thought this was one of the best episodes they've done in a while.

Though, I hated the fact that Gin missed the target on his dynamite, where older Bernard asked for "holy" intervention and hit his right on...that dang FAITH again.

2 questions/observations. In the opening scene isn't Jin and Sun sitting in the row behind Jack. Also, when Jack shows up at the wake he tries to call a number and the message I believe says you've reach 305-something something. 305 is a Miami area code where Julliet lives. Maybe Jack goes from Island Hero to mainland stalker.

The funniest line of the night, I thought, was from Ben, when Alex was upset and asking why he tried to brainwash Carl:

"I didn't want you to get pregnant!"

But he said it JUST like a dad.

A few black faces hanging out makes a neighborhood "black" and "shady"???? Isn't this 2007...or maybe it IS 2007...

The person in the coffin could and might very well be a character that has not yet been introduced

The neighborhood WAS shady, or poor anyway - gray, cheap-looking, low rise buildings - the pine coffin, the folding chairs, the sign at the funeral home. It was shady, OK?
And was it black? Perhaps it's a stretch to assume just because everyone in the scene was black. Sorry to jump to conclusions - but all we know is what we're told.

If you look closely at the newspaper clipping from Jack's hand, it is in fact stated that a man was found, so this removes any possibility of Rose and Juliette. And between the references to the tower, the beam, and the idea of reliving something over and over again could relate to the Dark Tower series. History is doomed to repeat itself until it occurs perfectly, as it was meant to.

Copyright- TWOP is a website called Television Without Pity, which provides recaps of various shows, along with discussion forums. My point was mostly that the term "Flash-Jack" has been around, and I've noticed other folks here trying to post stuff as original when it's been all over the interwebs for awhile.

With regard to the area code when Jack is attempting to call Kate, I thought I heard "310"; 310 is listed as: S California: Beverly Hills, West Hollywood, West Los Angeles. I think maybe Ocham's Razor (not to be confused with Jack's RZR) might apply here.

LostieLostie,

Not to belabor the point, but your supposition about the water compressing the air in the room is incorrect. The air in the room is already at a higher pressure, since the air in the entire station is at a higher pressure due to the open submarine access point. It would not be compressed further. The porthole is about halfway up the room wall, so the water would fill to the top of the porthole, leaving about 4-5 feet of breathable air in the top of the room. The writers/directors simply screwed up the physics.

Re: Jack's "flash forwards" taking place in L.A. Where is the hospital Jack worked? He told the new Chief of Surgery that he had worked there many years. Is it in Los Angeles? If so, then the flash forwards had to take place there because the accident victims were brought there.

However, if it is not there, then Los Angeles may just be stuck in people's minds because of the dateline on the news article. Remember, Jack noticed the news article on the airplane. But he picked up the newspaper on the airplane so that is another thing to consider. I wonder if anyone has tried to capture the screenshot of when he picked up the paper on the plane. That may provide some more clues?

Also, the article talks about a MAN's death so we can assume it is a MAN's funeral BUT that does not necessarily mean that the funeral is for the person in the article. Just a thought.

I do think it is significant that t