Sayid works for Ben? Love it. The show rocks...although it's even better after a few glasses of Wine at v-day dinner.

random:

Sayid is the Angel of Death (willingly or not - please reference the reluctant "Loki" from "Dogma")

Ben's final line about being glad that "they" now know that he and Sayid are after them was reminiscent of the end of "The Matrix."

Maybe I'll have more later, once I can mull and/or rewatch the episode without squalling children interrupting the evening...

Oh, and "The Economist?" also parallels the Matrix's "The Architect."

Sayid back in civilization in a suit and that hair... what an episode!

There was a large wad of Australian currency in the drawer in Ben's house. $20s, I believe.

OK, the flash-forwards clearly show that those who get off the island are unhappy with their fates. My theory about the show is that at the very end the future timeline will be changed somehow (by Desmond maybe?) and the sad future fate will be changed. Because there's no way the viewers would stand to see the final episodes if we knew these flash forwards would stand as the fate of the Oceanic 6

One thing on the 100 days -- keep in mind Jack was in Australia for some period of time before the crash, so he probably hadn't seen a game for a week or two (at least) before hitting the island.

a quick comment on the time distortion...

there are a lot of fun google hits if you search "slowing of time" and "electromagnetism"...

In physics, apparently time can slow if subject to intense gravity or radiation. Also the grand unification theory (not quite complete) is about connecting all forces with one another. So by extension intense electromagnetism may slow time as well.

If these principles were in effect on the island, then time would move slower on the island than off it.

But I think it gets even better. If time moves more slowly off the island than on, then there would need to be a recalibration when leaving the island. So there would be certain space around the island where time moves faster than the rest of the world. In such space, one would reach adolescence fairly quickly. Walt, anyone?

Of course I'm not a physicist, I just play one in this forum. But the idea of slowing and speeding up of time is a well played on theory in physics and would explain a lot of the phenomena on the island.

Now that Miles the ghost-whisperer is hanging out in Othertown, I'm guessing he'll have a lot of dead people to chat with. Kinda creepy.

I don't think Sayid would have been able to use the information about Ben's secret closet to negotiate with Locke -- wouldn't Locke have seen the closet anyway, since Sayid was walking out of it when Locke (and others) surprised him in Ben's house?

Interesting comment, SLK. All the more relevent due to the nod to CS Lewis mentioned in last week's episode discussion (Charlotte's name is very similar). As you'll recall, time in Narnia flew by much faster than time in the real world.

My theory is that Michael, is Ben's spy on the boat!

If time really does move slower on the island, maybe that explains why Richard Alpert looks so youthful. Maybe the longer you spend on the island, the slower time moves for you? That would explain why Ben did age and Richard hasn't.

I can't help but think the characters might be traveling back and forth in time (that's a really imprecise way of phrasing what I mean, but I don't know enough of the science). For some reason I got the idea that Sayid is Ben's "man on the boat". Somehow perhaps Ben is immune to the time slow-down on the island and that is how he is has information before any of the other islanders do.
Also, in the seaon 3 finale, when Jack said to Kate "here we go again", it felt like a clue of some sort. Does this seem possible to anyone else?

Re: Jacob's Cabin. It was Ghost Walt that told Locke to go there. What does this say about the infallibility of the boy wonder? Is it Locke or Walt that has fallen out of favor with Jacob?

Nice calls, SLK and MTM on the electro-magno-chrono differential. It's been said that experiments by Michael Faraday the scientist showed the effects of magnetism on light waves, and Hawkins talked a lot about the relationship between time and light and gravity. Time is relative, remember, and one person's measurement of time can differ from another's depending on where the two are located and other science stuff that I won't even begin to claim to understand.

I would also suggest that the imploding of the hatch did something to impact the way that time passes. time may have been moving even more slowly before this "incident."

I am curious to know if something already transpired between ben and sayid when they were locked in the room together. do you think that sayid knows who the "man on the boat" might be? I am not in the camp that thinks it is michael - only because I am not sure why Michael would choose to be loyal to ben at this point. if he is on a freighter and can be saved, why would he remain loyal to ben? it is clear that Walt has either died (and is half-alive) or returned of his own free will.

and thanks sawyer for asking why kate would want to leave the island! I still don't get that and hope that next week will offer some answers to the mystery of kate. she of all people should want to stay.

so where is richard alpert?

Liz, I'm glad to read I'm not the only one who lies awake late at night pondering the puzzles of this "dang" show.

I think this season we will finally get some answers to all of these mysteries that have been plaguing us. The new additions to the island, I believe (as Mr. Abaddon implied), have a specific purpose.

Dan (physicist)- could certainly help unravel all the expirements that Dharma has been tinkering with, maybe even the black smoke as well.

Charlotte (anthropologist)- where did the Black Rock come from? and why do the statues only have 3 toes?

Miles (psychic of sorts)- many of the Losties have been seeing strange visions (Jacks dad, Kates horse, etc), maybe he will play the key role in finding Jacob, after all, he "conveniently" ended up on Locke's end.

Frank (pilot)- we know at least 7 people make it off the island (the Oceanic 6 plus Ben [who wouldnt count because he wasnt on the plane]).

Jen and Liz are right, this is shaping up to be the best (and tightest) season yet!

Okay, Oceanic 6:
Sayid, Hurley, Kate, Jack, Jack's Father, and Micheal.

He's alive, we all know it!

"so where is richard alpert?"

The actor who plays Alpert, Nestor Carbonell, is a cast member on "Cane."

According to the latest research, the expansion of the universe is accelerating.

"But, having looked closely at the screenshots of the two bracelets, I don't think they are exactly the same."

The two screenshots in the link are of the same bracelet -- Naomi's.

"One thing on the 100 days -- keep in mind Jack was in Australia for some period of time before the crash, so he probably hadn't seen a game for a week or two (at least) before hitting the island."

But in Australia he would at least be able to keep tabs on the team. He definitely was referring to his 100 days on the island. I, too, thought he got a strange look from the Pilot. And with the tight writing on this show, there's NO WAY that Jack's mention of the 100 days isn't an accident or just filler dialogue. I'm wondering if time on the island is not just a constant 31 minutes behind "reality" but maybe is constantly slipping further behind? So if over a few hours (not sure the exact time from Daniel's phone call with Regina to the payload actually showing up, but probably a few hours) the island slips 31 minutes behind, over 100 days, it would be a lot further behind.... Maybe it's been a year in "reality" time but only 100 days on the island.

ok, looks like SLK and others have more scientifically spelled that out already. but i definitely agree and i like how you all have linked it to the possible agelessness of alpert and the Tall Ghost Walt.
- anon at 12:17

I have a question about the Oceanic 6. Why does it seem like people are somewhat frightened of them? When Sayid told the golfer about being one, the golfer got kind of creeped out. I think that there were some people who were creeped out over Hurley too. This little fact has been bugging me. Any thoughts?

Hey Jen - just wanted to say thanks for resurrecting my idea about the collapsing "Lost" universe. You did a great job of summarizing it.

Speaking of time, the diference in the clocks that Daniel compares is 31 minutes. My question to those more scientific and mathematically inclined - is the Island 31 minutes out of sync or is that a ratio in that if one minute passes on the Island 31 minutes pass in the outside world? If that's the case then how far out of whack is the Island universe with ours. I wonder if the Island is a bubble universe (I saw that once on Star Trek: The Next Generation) where time is going at a different rate.

Now a switch from the profound to the ridiculous. Was I the only one who wondered at the wisdom of conducting an experiement that involves hurtling a piece of metal that close to a helicopter? When that's your only means of return/escape I thought the incoming cylinder came too close to the copter for my taste. If it had hit the rotors then everyone would have to wait for the next freighter to come by.

dre7861

I have a question about the Oceanic 6. Why does it seem like people are somewhat frightened of them? When Sayid told the golfer about being one, the golfer got kind of creeped out. I think that there were some people who were creeped out over Hurley too. This little fact has been bugging me. Any thoughts?

Posted by: VAtoLA | February 15, 2008 12:18 PM

Well, the fact that Oceanic 815 had been "found" and then the Oceanic 6 "rose from the dead" would probably freak a whole lotta people out. They may be celebs now but I'm sure some people just aren't buying whatever cover up story they are telling.

"The Economist" episode begins w/ Sayid in the Seychelles. Do you think the writers of _Lost_ are aware that two of the islands in that archipelago just happen to be named Benjamim (as in Linus) and St. Anne's (as in Ben's childhood friend Annie)?

HarryMerkin - That is why the writers/creators of this show are GENIUS.

Does anyone else think that Regina's voice (on the freighter) sounds a lot like Naomi? Could it be Naomi? Naomi's braclet says "I'll be with you forever. R.G." Kind of a strange thing to engrave on a braclet. The "R" could be Regina. She could have given the braclet to herself, maybe as an inside joke (i.e., you will always be with yourself). When Miles called the boat to inform them of Naomi's death, Miles wanted to talk to Minkowski, possibly to avoid Regina finding out over the phone.

mark - scroll down for the shot of Elsa's bracelet on her wrist.

Man, I have so many questions & comments I can't even begin. Are we sure Naomi's bracelet said "RG"? I couldn't decide if that was a G or a C.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, pushed little by Liz and her quasi-spoiler: I think the other two Oceanic 6 are Sun and Jin. Since Sun got preggers on the Island and will most likely die if she tries to give birth there, to prevent this from happening, she and Jin get a ride on the freighter and Golden Tickets from Oceanic.

Am I the only one who prefers sexy island Sayid to flat-ironed Sayid?

What if Ben and Kate are together? Not Kate and Sawyer.

Oooh, Elmo, I was thinking the same thing about Regina sounding an awful lot like Naomi! Then I thought maybe Naomi *did* have a sister & Miles was making that stuff about the code up, since Daniel didn't seem to have a clue of what he was talking about.

Oceanic 6: Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sayid, Sawyer and Locke

My thoughts: Ben somehow is the key to the 6 leaving the island. Obviously, the other Losties are left behind. But for reasons to be explained the island and its secrets need to be protected, and the 6 are guilted or forced to keep it that way.

Jack wants to keep it that way at first, and is happy to be back, but he feels guilty, and wants to go back.

Kate avoids the law, or is pardoned, ends up with Sawyer and tries to live a happy life.

Hurley goes nuts, sees the visions and just wants to be left alone.

Ben knows Sayid is the only one who can protect him and help protect the island, owes Ben for getting him off, and (in the future) does his dirty work.

Sawyer, despite not wanting to leave, changes his mind when his future with Kate becomes reality.

And just for fun Locke is forced from the island. Btw, he's the one in the coffin...

Michael Faraday was featured on the British 20-pound note from 1991-2001. It's still legal tender. http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jbourj/money1.htm
How convenient.

Kate, Jack, Hurley, Sayid, ?, ?.

I think it would be a great twist if John Locke were one of the Oceanic 6.

But for the safe bet, I'm going with Michael (I think he's on the freighter - though not sure if he's precisely "ben's man" - and eventually leaves with the other 5) and Sun (to have her baby in the regular world in hopes of saving the pregnancy... if she stays on the island, she definitely dies).

I like Desmond, but I think his chances these days are slim for survival. I'm betting he gets "offed" on the freighter. Sorry brotha.

I like Sayid all cleaned up, except I'm not sure about his Opera Man hairdo later in the episode.

Also, the coffee shop he meets Elsa in is called 'The Wall' in German. Which I guess isn't any big thing since he's close to where the wall actually stood, but I'm sure there's all kinds of symbolic significance there. Also with Potsdammer Platz being in no-man's land for years.

I'm not 100% convinced that was Ben in Sayid's flash forward. Sayid never actually used his name, and he looked somehow younger to me. Was he a "bad twin"? A duplicate or doppelganger caused by crossing over the island border? Smokey/Walt/Christian Shepherd?

I'm not saying it wasn't Ben either. Just that I feel like they were being intentionally vague about his identity, and a misdirect wouldn't surprise me at all.

Farady used to be on the 20 pound note from the Bank of England until he was replaced by the conductor Elgar

Several of the postings take it as given that the freighter is the way they get off the island. Why? For one thing it's too obvious, which this show never is, for another, Ben has been clear that the intention of the "boat people" isn't to save anybody.

As far as time goes...I think it's pretty good bet that time off the island is at real-world speed (i.e. for the people on the freighter, it's 2007-2008) and for the Losties it's still 100 days after the crash, or 2004.

Has anyone checked out car models, or other clues as to what year it is in the flash forwards? The flash forwards are taking place pretty soon after the Oceanic 6 return, judging from the fact that EVERYONE knows who they are, and I'm also convinced that the flash forwards are taking place around present day. Assuming the Oceanic 6 get off the island this season, my time theory would fit.

Q: I have a question about the Oceanic 6. Why does it seem like people are somewhat frightened of them? When Sayid told the golfer about being one, the golfer got kind of creeped out. I think that there were some people who were creeped out over Hurley too. This little fact has been bugging me. Any thoughts?

Posted by: VAtoLA | February 15, 2008 12:18 PM

A: Well, the fact that Oceanic 815 had been "found" and then the Oceanic 6 "rose from the dead" would probably freak a whole lotta people out. They may be celebs now but I'm sure some people just aren't buying whatever cover up story they are telling.

Posted by: Lost at Work | February 15, 2008 12:23 PM

I'd also add that after Sayid mentioned he was one of the Oceanic 6, he (Sayid) killed the golfer (whose name, IIRC was Avion, which is French for airplane). Of course, Sayid just didn't decide to kill him for the fun of it, he was on "the list". The golfer may have known this and *that's* why he got upset and tried to leave.

Re: "I have a question about the Oceanic 6. Why does it seem like people are somewhat frightened of them? When Sayid told the golfer about being one, the golfer got kind of creeped out. I think that there were some people who were creeped out over Hurley too. This little fact has been bugging me. Any thoughts?"

That golfer obviously was involved someone with either the crash or the island, as Sayid was there to kill him, on mission directed by Ben, as we learn at the end. They don't say explicitly that golfer was a target but he obviously was, as Sayid knew what he was doing, came prepared to kill him and then did so. That's why he was creeped out. As for people being frightened by Hurley, he was super erratic and just engaged police on a high-speed chase. I'd be a little apprehensive talking to him as well.

The theories on time acceleration/deceleration are strong, I believe. It would answer a lot of questions, but of course raise more.

I'm pretty sure Jack asked the pilot about the World Series and the line is just "filler". Remember he saw the video tape of the victory while being held by the Others. Obviously after dealing with them he's probably just a wee bit skeptical... I would guess the writers are Sox fans and love giving it to even a fictional Yankees fan.

Are we sure that Jack and Kate are one of the Oceanic 6? I mean yeah, they are off the island, but they have never claimed to be one of them yet. I am all full of weird theories today so bear with me. But I think that there is a possibility that there are more than just the six of them off the island and that there are six who are considered to be "special" in some way....but thats just me going out on a limb.

"Has anyone checked out car models, or other clues as to what year it is in the flash forwards? The flash forwards are taking place pretty soon after the Oceanic 6 return, judging from the fact that EVERYONE knows who they are, and I'm also convinced that the flash forwards are taking place around present day. Assuming the Oceanic 6 get off the island this season, my time theory would fit."

In the Season 3 finale, a huge clue that we were seeing a flaskforward Jack was his cool sleek phone (I think it was a Krzr or something that had just come out). Though we're actually not sure from that, or any, flash forward how far forward they actually are. Could be a month, could be years. And Hurley's comment to Jack of "you still getting asked to sign autographs?" in the HORSE game makes me think that it's been long enough taht the initial craze of them being back has worn off, but they're still not completely yesterday's news. Like, (in Celebritology terms) maybe they're now B-List stars.

I'm pretty sure Jack asked the pilot about Q: the World Series and the line is just "filler". Remember he saw the video tape of the victory while being held by the Others. Obviously after dealing with them he's probably just a wee bit skeptical... I would guess the writers are Sox fans and love giving it to even a fictional Yankees fan.

A: Yes, but he SPECIFICALLY mentioned "I can't believe it's been 100 days since I've seen them play." In the world of Lost (combined with the "Payload" clock difference), that ain't filler.

I agree - I think someone's a Red Sox fan & his confirming that they won the World Series was a shout-out to their winning again this year!

I don't think the golfer's name was Avion. I actually turned my close-captioning on to see what it said, and (of course I can't remember) it was something like Avallino or something. And of course, I can't seem to find his name anywhere on the web.

Not Shlomo - actually I think that it was figured out that Sun got pregnant BEFORE she got to the island. There was that episode with all the flashbacks and at the end of the episode Juliette was able to do an ultrasound and determine that the fetus was old enough that she would have gotten pregnant before landing on the island. However KATE got pregnant on the island, so she is at risk. I'm surprised we haven't heard anything about her pregnancy this season.

Could Naomi's bracelet's NG be a reference to Sayid's love, Nadia? I don't know if we've learned her last name. Also, could Sayid's idea to take Naomi's body with them on the helicopter be the "heart " mistake Ben refers to? If the island can bring the dead to life, wouldn't she have fared better there? In the real world, her body would already be crawling with maggots and flies.

:::I have a question about the Oceanic 6. Why does it seem like people are somewhat frightened of them? When Sayid told the golfer about being one, the golfer got kind of creeped out. I think that there were some people who were creeped out over Hurley too. This little fact has been bugging me. Any thoughts?:::

Did anyone catch the name of the man Sayid shot on the golf course? I swear he said something like Mr. Avalon (Credited as the Italian Man on the cast list)? And later, I thought Elsa said something about Avalon or the same name I'd heard earlier so I was wondering if the man he killed on the course was Elsa's "employer". Sayid was originally trying to get to him through her and he was presumably on "the list" of people he needed to kill. Even though he killed Elsa, she had already warned someone about Sayid so that person needed to be killed, too (esp.if they were on the list, right?).

If the Italian man was Elsa's boss and he had been warned about Sayid/knew Sayid was looking for him-- when he realized who he was talking to on the golf course, perhaps that is why he was so freaked out.

I also think it is entirely possible that while we are getting flash forwards now, some of the flash forwards may occur out of sequence. It would get boring if we could predict the pattern of the scenes off the island, no?

Anyway, no one had mentioned that so I thought I'd throw it out there.

maybe kate decides to leave the island when she finds out that she too is pregnant. the avoidance of death is the only possibility that I can see for her actually wanting the leave the island.

Actually, I think they proved that Sun got pregnant *on* the island - she was really happy b/c that meant it was Jin's, but also really sad b/c that meant it was probably her death warrant.

Q: Not Shlomo - actually I think that it was figured out that Sun got pregnant BEFORE she got to the island. There was that episode with all the flashbacks and at the end of the episode Juliette was able to do an ultrasound and determine that the fetus was old enough that she would have gotten pregnant before landing on the island. However KATE got pregnant on the island, so she is at risk. I'm surprised we haven't heard anything about her pregnancy this season.

A: Nope, this is completely backwards. Sun got pregnant ON THE ISLAND, which Juliette confirmed. There was a question that her lover impregnated her off the island (since she and Jin had not recently slept together off island), but it turned out to be not the case by Juliet's estimates. Sun was crying and happy at the findings because it was Jin's baby, though that is currently being overshadowed by the fact that she is in danger because no woman has successfully conceived and then given birth on the island.

And we still have no idea if Kate is pregnant. It's a possibility since she was with Sawyer, but still unknown.

I completely agree - the show has absolutely gotten back on track, as evidenced by the fact that I say "WTF?!?" at least five times per episode.

re: Jacob's shack - why did the gunpowder/ashy stuff stay, but the cabin didn't? Also, isn't Locke going to feel even more threatened by Hurley because he DOES know where it's at now? Or was that whole thing between them just an aside so that we'd buy into hostage-Hurley?

Q: I agree - I think someone's a Red Sox fan & his confirming that they won the World Series was a shout-out to their winning again this year!

A: Yup, could very well be a shout out, but why not end with just "Did they really win? Yes? Alright!" They took it further with the 100 days comment for a reason.

I keep hearing people say that locke feels threatened by hurley seeing the cabin, but I swear (in rewatching last week's episode) that locke smiles when hurley mentions that he has seen the cabin. it is ben who looks shocked.

Oh, I absolutely agree with the 100 days comment meaning something!

Thank god for DVRs - I always have to go back & watch the whole episode again after all the stuff brought up here.

Q: Could Naomi's bracelet's NG be a reference to Sayid's love, Nadia? I don't know if we've learned her last name. Also, could Sayid's idea to take Naomi's body with them on the helicopter be the "heart " mistake Ben refers to? If the island can bring the dead to life, wouldn't she have fared better there? In the real world, her body would already be crawling with maggots and flies.

A: The bracelet say RC. Not NG. Keep up people!

I just realized that an anagram of Mittelos is Lost Time. Wonder if this is another Lindecuse tease.

oops! I meant RG. Keep up Quiz Master!

So, if I remember correctly, when Farraday is initially looking for the 'payload', he is looking one direction, but when it lands, it comes in from the direction opposite from where he was looking (?)Is this right? Is it insignificant?

Also, I am wondering if Ben has been cloned?

Absolutley great episode. I too had trouble sleeping, in fact waking up at 3 am to rethink the show again. I'm scaring myself now, not just the rest of the family : - ) The good news re Richard Alpert is that I heard this week that Cane is not going to be renewed. Since Jen/Liz reported that there will be 5 more episodes shot this year (making 13 total) then perhaps we will see Richard Alpert back in a later episode. They can then use him as a vehicle to explain the Black Rock since I believe he arrived on the Island along with that ship.

Wait, Andrea. Wasn't it an "Island Miracle" that Sun got pregnant? Just like Locke walking again? So she couldn't have been knocked up before coming to the Island. Right?

Witchy: Good argument on the freighter being a red herring as a means of rescue. There may well be another route for them to leave, say, I don't, a submarine, perhaps?

Sun definitely got pregnant by Jin ON THE ISLAND.

I agree that time on the island is moving slower than off the island. The powerful electromagnetic field on the island is the cause. While he know the losties believe they've been on the island 90+ days the rescuers have made no mention of the date. I suspect its actually been a few years. But not too long since Jack's ex-wife was not noticeably older in the flash forward from last season. Also, the list of people Sayid and Ben are killing are likely Dharma/Hanso people who are trying to figure out what happened on the island. The German woman was seducing Sayid to get him to talk about the island.

DO WE REALLY KNOW IF ALL OF THOSE PASSPORTS WERE BEN'S? JUST WONDERING IF IT WAS SOME COLLECTION THAT HE MAY HAVE...LET ME KNOW IF I'M WAY OUTTA WACK

I also noticed the 100 days comment... 100 (3 months) days seems like an awfully short amount of time for Frank Lapidus to spiral out of control post-plane-I-was-supposed-to-fly crash, develop a drinking problem, move to the Bahamas, find a new job, memorize the entire passenger manifest, get recruited by Abaddon and co, and ship out to the middle of wherever.

"While he know the losties believe they've been on the island 90+ days the rescuers have made no mention of the date. I suspect its actually been a few years."

This would make sense since Lapidus is a bit too hairy to have been the original pilot for the Oceanic flight. Airlines employees have to be clean cut, and it would have taken Lapidus a lot longer than 100 days to get that scruffy.

Someone above asked if we know if Jack is really one of the O6.

When he is talking to Kate at the airport he says he uses his Golden Ticket to fly somewhere every Friday night, hoping it will crash and he can go back.

Best line ever--
Liz: Hold on. I'm having some kind of "Lost"-induced seizure.

I like the wrinkle in time theory, because it conveniently explains how Walt--who has been off the Island--could have aged between the time they last saw him and he urged Locke to get up. So if time moves more slowly on the Island than in the rest of the world, Walt could be 3 years older even though Jack thinks it's only been 100 days.

Someone referenced Kates' pregnancy. Have they said she is pregnant? If Kate is pregnant, then my guess is the "him" she has to get back to in the flashforward is her son.

I would guess Sun and Jin are part of the Oceanic 6, given her pregnancy and that all women who get pregnant on the island die.

I can't place the accent of the golfer that Sayid kills - any ideas? It sounded to me like his name was pronounced "Avenue" to me.

I think Ben was referring to Sayid trusting Hurley in Ben's house when he said he was fooled by following his emotions.

Also, if time slows down on the island, wouldn't it have taken longer for Claire to have the baby?

"Also, if time slows down on the island, wouldn't it have taken longer for Claire to have the baby?"

Dur...did you miss the day they spent teaching special relativity in advanced physics???

To an outside observer (the freighter) time is moving more slowly on the island. On the island, however, time appears to be normal. So clair had her baby within the expected time frame, but to someone off the island, it may have taken months or even a year to give birth.

This would all be more plausible if the island was actually a space-craft traveling at near light speed.

The golfer's name is Mr. Avellino.

http://lostpedia.com/wiki/The_Economist

A: The bracelet say RC. Not NG. Keep up people!

Posted by: Quiz Master | February 15, 2008 01:17 PM

Okay, I messed up by misremembering the R as an N, but you've messed up thinking that it says RC not RG. Even our dueling analysts agree it's an RG! Keep up people, indeed. I think some of the better comments get posted to J. Wood's blog at Powell's.com.

::I can't place the accent of the golfer that Sayid kills - any ideas? It sounded to me like his name was pronounced "Avenue" to me.::

He's credited as "Italian Man". I thought his name was something that sounded like "Avalon" and also that I heard Elsa say the same name later in the episode, so I wondered if he was her "employer" that Sayid was supposed to kill.

Could the RG on the bracelet be somehow related to the real Henry Gayle whose balloon crashed onto the island?

There's a musical (can't remember the name) about a Scottish town that appears once every hundred years or so. When it appears, people from outside can enter it, but they can stay only a short time before the town disappears again. Clearly there's a time lag between the island and the freighter...perhaps Daniel is measuring how much time they have before the island disappears again?

The clock-on-a-projectile test was Faraday's version of the classic Hafele-Keating experiment, where atomic clocks were placed in planes which flew around the world, then the time on the plane clocks were compared to clocks which remained on the ground. Since Einstein was right, the time on the clocks didn't match!

However, the difference on those clocks was measured in tiny fractions of seconds, and our payload experiment came up with 31 minutes!

So, there's got to be something else going on, other than just relativistic effects, but I thought I should mention it.

from Lostpedia:

http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Mr._Avellino

Doesn't mention anything about a connection between this man and Elsa but I still think there must be. I'll have to watch again tonight to see if I hear her say that name during the episode.

PREVIOUS: This would make sense since Lapidus is a bit too hairy to have been the original pilot for the Oceanic flight. Airlines employees have to be clean cut, and it would have taken Lapidus a lot longer than 100 days to get that scruffy.

ME: About Frank's scruffyness. I bet this has been dealt with on other message boards, but I am too lazy to look. How is Locke's head always perfectly shaven? What about Jack's beard always being at the post crash length? I am surprised I never thought about these things much before, but last night, for some unknown reason, they came to my mind and bothered me. Ok, so time movement might explain it. But its still been 90 island days. I know that my beard would grow a lot in 90 days! Does the Island affect people's physiology?

Also, it just occurred to me, unless there is a big deception going on as to when Ben came to the island, he came in the hippy 60s, as a kid, thus he has aged at a normal rate. Maybe the trips off the island have contributed to this, but his age doesnt seem far off from what it should be.

Somebody theorized that Daniel discovered that one island minute is 31 minutes off the island, since the clock in the canister was 31 minutes faster. so this got me thinking.

If one island minute is 31 regular minutes then 100 days for the Losties - as Jack makes reference too with the pilot - is appx. 8 1/2 years in the real world. This would explain how the freighter crew has those futuristic sat phones, and why Walt is considerably older, and why the pilot gives Jack a look when he mentions its only been 100 days.

I don't know about anyone else, but I had total flashbacks of back to the future when daniel held the two stopwatches next to each other.

ckf - the musical you're referring to is brigadoon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigadoon)

Perhaps the time discrepancy explains the reason why women cannot carry a baby full-term on the island...it develops at too slow a rate.

I still think it's 2004 off the island. If you go back toe the screen caps from last week, where Miles does his ghostbusting there's a basketball schedule on the wall and the year 2004 is pretty clear. Now, perhaps the poster is 3 years old, but it's more consistent with the ghostbusting taking place in 2004, and 815 was found in 2004.

Re: time on/off the island - think of it this way... we, in TV land, have spent 3-4 years watching "Lost" and the plot involving the Losties and the Others and everyone else has only advanced 100 +/- days.

(now, why that exactly is will be up to smarter persons than I to explain, as we've been seeing in these posts)

also, the whole thing about Naomi's and Elsa's bracelets... I don't think that it was the same bracelet per se, but identical bracelets given to two members of... what? Abaddon's crew? This obviously makes me think that Naomi and Elsa are linked (they're working for the same person or group), that both of them are bad guys, and that for some reason these bad guys are underlings to someone(s)/something bigger that Ben is trying to destroy.

just because the boat watch was 31 minutes ahead does not mean that one lostie minute is 31 real world minutes

Re the time theory - so how long does that make it that Penny has been looking for Desmond, since he has been on the island for a few years. 10 years? She didn't look 10 years older when she was talking to Charlie.

1. My opinion is that the "flash-forwards" actually constitute a possible alternate future reality, one that could occur if certain things do/do not happen on the present-reality island.
2. Jacob..."Jacob's Ladder." Hello?

I thought time is moving faster not slower on the island. Its 3:16 on the island and 2:45 on the rocket. Which means 31 island minutes for 1 outside world minute.
Then again, maybe it is slower. How about this?
When Jack asks Lapidus "Did the Red Sox really win the World Series?", Jack was referring to the 2004 World Series. Maybe Lapidus is talking about the 2007 Series (which the Red Sox also won).

All this reminds me of a book I read as a teenager called "Singularity" by William Sleator. It's about 2 identical twin teenage boys who discover a cabin (yes, a cabin!!) where time runs faster than in the outside world. The shyer twin gets sick of the bully twin & spends 'one night' (which = 1 year) in the cabin, so he comes out the next morning & he's basically gone through puberty, so he's bigger than his other twin. There's a lot more to it, but I haven't read it in years. I wonder if that book has anything to do with anything?

i think that there is an underlying assumption to many theories here and elsewhere that the +ending+ of the show is that the characters (four we know so far plus Ben) get off the island. Prior to the Season 3 finale, that was a fair assumption. But i thnk the flash forwards are just another point of time in the show. The final ending of the show will be the characters going back to the island and staying there, or finally leaving the island without secrets and bad vibes hanging over them, or something else. The post-island scenes are not showing us the unhappy end of the show but another point in time for these characters.

From Wikipedia on Brigadoon -- "It tells the story of a mysterious Scottish village that appears for only one day every hundred years, though to the villagers, the passing of each century seems no longer than one night. The enchantment is viewed by them as a blessing rather than a curse, for it saved the village from destruction. According to their covenant with God, no one from Brigadoon may ever leave, or the enchantment will be broken and the site and all its inhabitants will disappear into the mist forever. Two American tourists, lost in the Highlands, stumble upon the village just as a wedding is about to be celebrated, and their arrival has serious implications for the village's inhabitants."

I just have to say that I will never be watching this stupid-a** show again because Jack is a Red SUX fan. I think its ridicljous that the writers are trying to shove the red SUX nation down our throats, whatever happened to the 2nd ammendemnt of america taht states that we can believe anything we want. ut just aleinates allt he yankee fans, and i know taht me freinds and i will no longer be watching this biased piece of garbage!!

If the "time is slowing down on the island" is totally correct, then how old would Rouseau or Desmond be? Why would Penny not look more aged as we saw her video in the looking glass station?

Instead, is it possible that time has only been slowing down since the hatch imploded? I don't know the number of days this happened at, but at least it would add a bit more plausability to the theory.

"Somebody theorized that Daniel discovered that one island minute is 31 minutes off the island"

That would only be true if one minute had passed on the island (ground) timer and thirty-one on the freighter (projectile) timer. Unless I'm way off, the times were 31 minutes apart, but not at a 1-to-31 ratio. Does anyone have screen captures of the two clocks?

Just because they keep mentioning the Oceanic 6 doesn't mean that more people didn't leave the island, it just means that only 6 people from the PLANE make it off the island. If Ben, Juliet and Desmond make it off.. they're not part of the Oceanic 6 because they weren't ON THE PLANE.

Bowie - excellent point about the Red Sox having also won the 2007 World Series. For all we know (at this point), that's the one the pilot thinks Jack is talking about, not the '04 Series.

Someone else asked why Locke's head is always shaved -- early on in this series, I remember a scene that showed Locke shaving his head with one of the many hunting knives he had in his luggage.

Finally, for those still pondering the Charlotte Lewis/CS Lewis angle, I suggest looking not to the Narnia books, but to his "Perelandra" sci-fi trilogy ("Out of the Silent Planet," "Perelandra," and "That Hideous Strength") - especially the first and third books in that series. Among other things, these books include a possible model for the smoke monster on "Lost."

OK...Elsa says on the phone "I expected your call 30 minutes ago"...
I believe that time is different on the island and thats why everyone's so freaked out by the "6". Faraday comments on how different light looks on the island, like its bent.
I think the copter ride goes horribly wrong and triggers the Indian Ocean tsunami of Dec 26, 2004.

Here's an aspect of the time difference issue no one has mentioned. If time on the boat (off the island) moves faster or at least differently than time on the island, how are the people on the island able to hold perfectly normal-sounding real-time phone conversations with people on the boat? I would think there would have to be some sort of delay in the back-and-forth conversation because it should take a while for the people on the boat to hear the responses of the people on the island, but there is not.

So who won the captioning contest last week? Or is the winner actually existing on another time/space continuum that we can't experience?

Sayid comments to the German girl about how the pager is outdated technology; she respons "I've tried, but he's very old fashioned... you know how bosses can be." Later she talks to him on a cell phone. Why would anyone use a pager and what do they mean by "old fashioned"? Is this a clue as to the identity of Boss?

Frank to Daniel, who wants to use the phone to call Regina for his experiment: "If Michowski(sp?) gets on there, you hang up right away." Who is this?

what about claire leaving the island? according to desmond's vision of charlie's death in the looking glass station, claire leaves the island on a helicopter. is she one of the oceanic 6? aaron wouldn't count as one of the oceanic 6 because he *technically* wasn't a passenger on the plane.

The Bracelet's Message:
-Although I'm not sure how this thought fits in to the plot, let me add a little wild speculation as to what the bracelet's message means. But first, from the screencap, so that there is no more confusion as to what it says:

"N, I'll always be with you, R.G."

Maybe this is a code for: "Nadia, I'll always be with you, Republican Guard."

Again, no idea how this fits in the plot if it were to be correct, but I thought I'd launch this trial balloon to see others with far more "Lost" knowledge hash this out.

Some other tidbits to chew on:
-There must be a reason that Sayyid is so affected by the bracelet, this suggests familiarity with it;
-The bracelet doesn't appear to be particularly feminine, maybe a man's jewelry? Unisex?
-Separate from whatever is the meaning of the bracelet's message: Since Sayyid's german adventure occurs in the future after he gets off the island, his running into the bracelet on Ilse/Elsa suggests that Naomi's body is delivered to someone (presumably Abaddon?) who then provides the bracelet to Ilse/Elsa, suggesting a connection between the two women (employer, colleagues?).
-No idea what that could mean to the plot, but nothing is supefluous anymore (I also realize this poses a serious conflict with my speculation on the meaning of the bracelet. Again, I did say it is wild speculation);
-This bracelet exchange suggests that the trip to the freighter was successful, since Naomi's body is on the helicopter, and the bracelet ends up with Ilse/Elsa later on;
-Lastly, this bracelet exchange lends some (albeit perhaps paper-thin) credence to the idea that Ilse/Elsa was connected to Abaddon in some way (maybe through an unseen third party?) and that Abaddon, or someone he is associated with are on Sayyid's list as provided by Ben.
-Ben is naturally malicious/ruthless, but at the end of the episode during his conversation with Sayyid, I really think his desire to eliminate the people on the list is motivated by revenge--so was Abaddon successful in damaging/destroying the island? Or able to prevent Ben from returning?

Re: Island is Eden Theory (which I really like, btw):
-Is Ben the snake, or the tree of knowledge (he does seem to know everything)?
-Are the Oceanic Six a metaphor for Adam and Eve being cast out of paradise? Hence their longing to get back/repent (See Jack's desperate hope to crash on his subsequent flights with the golden ticket)?
-If so, what was the "forbidden fruit" they sampled that got them exiled from paradise?
-Could it be that their unwavering desire to leave the island is the equivalent of rejecting any faith in the notion that they are on the island "for a reason," (note how all the passengers are somehow connected) and that they are supposed to stay there (see Sawyer's and Kate's conversation last night)?
-This would require faith in "fate" and in any of the unusual phenomena that occurs on the island--those that have been identified so far as part of the six have never accepted the phenomena they have witnessed. This is especially true of Hurley, who is sympathetic to believing in the idea that he has witnessed some of these phenomena, but has consistently gone out of his way to make efforts to convince himself he is delusional. In the flash-forwards, there is clearly a sense of regret among the six.
-Would the six leaving the island be the equivalent to their consuming the forbidden fruit?
-Could the attempt to scientifically understand/explain how the island works (talking to you, Skinny D and Charlotte) play in to the idea that scientific intrusion into areas of faith destroys that faith, even if the explanations are not fully conclusive? The point of faith is to believe in the absence of proof, and if the island is explained, then that which is worthy of faith is destroyed? It has long been argued that faith has its own value, much as science does; is this part of the "message" of Lost?

Ok, enough stream of consciousness--hope someone enjoys running with these ideas.

-Screwtape

Gig asked: "If time on the boat (off the island) moves faster or at least differently than time on the island, how are the people on the island able to hold perfectly normal-sounding real-time phone conversations with people on the boat? "

I thought that at first, too. But remember that radio waves travel much much faster than rockets, so the lag wouldn't be noticeable (a few seconds). I don't want to do the math to figure it out.

VAtoLA -- I agree with you. I'm not so sure we should believe that Kate is one of the Oceanic 6. We know she's off the island, but she hasn't been referred to as one of the Oceanic 6, and we're not even sure she's famous. Now, you mention Jack too -- we know that Jack is famous (the guy in the drugstore said he was a hero [may have been b/c of his role in the car accident or may have been b/c he's Oceanic 6] and Hurley referenced the fact that Jack was famous in his flash forward) but we don't know for SURE that he's one of the Oceanic 6. I think Jack probably is one of the Oceanic 6, but am not so sure about Kate.

OK. It's Friday, so I'm bored and decided to do a little math. If Danny's rocket traveled just under Mach 1, say 1200 km/hr, and the freighter is 80 nm (160km) away, then...beep..beep...it should only take 8 minutes to get there.

It seemed way faster on the show, like 10 seconds until he was looking in the sky, but then that rocket would be coming in at like Mach 50. Not good to be hanging around wating for impact, I think. So I'm chalking it up to editing for TV time.

At any rate, the speed of light is 1,079,252,848.8 km/h, about 900000x greater than the rocket speed. If the delay in the rocket was over 30 minutes (about 4x the predicted time), then it was probably only a fraction of a second in delay for the radio.

Xopher,
You win. You are the bigger nerd. I bow before you.

I think the time thing is not as clear cut as 31 minutes. I think it's a ratio.
Per this screen shot,

http://lost.cubit.net/archives/2008/02/4x03-a-wrinkle-in-time.php

2:45:03 Island time = 3:16:22 off-island time. This is a ratio of 1.1897 (i.e. time is moving slightly faster off island).
But is this a fixed ratio? Was it affected by the now-blown up hatch? Maybe the purpose of entering the code was to keep this ratio in check and now it's not in check and the ratio could be increasing or decreasing more quickly?
Ugh my brain hurts.
I love this show!

Maybe RG is a reference to RG Collingwood, an early 20th century thinker known for his philosophy of history. Just a thought.
http://philosophers.co.uk/cafe/phil_feb2004.htm

Ok-I think the time theories are on track, but how do you explain that there is no lag-time in phone coversations that happen between people on the island and people on the freighter?

New to the conversation, but has anyone pointed out that the real John Locke is sometimes called "the father of empiricism" (science/observation as opposed to faith)? Why would the Lost John Locke be different?

q8
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Why does everyone assume that the "Oceanic Six" means that ONLY 6 people get off the island. It may only mean that there were 6 people who received some kind of publicity about being survivors -- not that more don't get off the island but in a way that doesn't generate the kind of media publicity that generates a tag line of "Oceanic Six." I also wouldn't make any assumptions about the time line of the flashforwards -- who knows when they occur in relation to each other. Finally, I'm convinced that some of the folks get off the island soon and that some of those flash forwards are not too far off into the future.

Another one of Jack Kerouac's famous novels: The Dharma Bums. Hmmmmmmm.......

In physics, Maxwell's equations in curved spacetime govern the dynamics of the electromagnetic field in curved spacetime (or more generally, spacetime with a non-Euclidean metric). They can be viewed as a generalisation of the vacuum Maxwell's equations as they are normally formulated in the local coordinates of flat spacetime, but general relativity dictates that the presence of electromagnetic fields themselves induce curvature in spacetime, so Maxwell's equations in flat spacetime should be viewed as a convenient approximation.

The electromagnetic field also admits a coordinate-independent geometric description, and Maxwell's equations expressed in terms of these geometric objects are the same in any spacetime, curved or not. Also, the same modifications are made to the equations in flat Euclidean or Minkowski space when using local coordinates that are not Euclidean. For example, the equations in this article can be used to write Maxwell's equations in spherical coordinates. For these reasons, it may be useful to think of Maxwell's equations in Minkowski space as a special case, rather than Maxwell's equations in curved spacetimes as a generalisation.

However, this formulation of Maxwell's equations is only useful for the vacuum Maxwell's equations, also called the "microscopic" Maxwell's equations. For the macroscopic Maxwell's equations with inhomogeneous materials, the presence of the materials establishes a reference frame and the equations are no longer covariant.

A few observations:

1) Given Locke's surprise and disappointment in not being able to find the cabin, it seems valid to conclude that it was not his eye that we saw when Hurley approached the cabin's window.

2) Perhaps the purpose of circle of colored earth around the cabin was to prevent it from moving itself to another location. And that preventive measure was somehow not enough.

3) I got the impression, by the exchange of looks between Frank (the pilot) and Dan (the physicist) when Desmond is pressing Frank about the Des-Penny photograph, that both of them knew about her, and chose to remain silent. So perhaps Penny is indeed on the boat.

4) I don't know much about lost islands where people from shipwrecks and plane accidents find refuge, but this island seems to have some areas very well manicured (short grass to play golf and land choppers). Somehow Sawyer's point of view with Kate (roof, electricity, ...) seemed quite reasonable.

5) How could Jack and Frank not ask Dan what he thought was the meaning of the projectile arriving with such delay. And why did Regina on the ship saw it reach target according to her instruments?

for

For anyone still reading...

I think there's some significance to the way Sayid treated Naomi. The way he looks at her, almost cares for her, and his interest in her bracelet. I don't think it was a coincidence that the episode revolved around Sayid and, in many ways, Naomi.

At times, I wondered if we were actually watching a flash-forward with Sayid. Sometimes it seemed it was a flashback. Certainly, Sayid doesn't appear to be able to escape his past. Again, he turns into a murderer. While he was on the losing side as a Republican Guard, we don't know what side he ends up on after he joins forces with Ben.

Also, there's something about Regina's voice that is just too similar to Naomi's.

Again, I ask, what is the real connection between Sayid and Naomi?

In keeping with the expanding/contracting universe theory: Does anyone think it strange/significant that (so far) Hurley is the only one of the Oceanic 6 who is in the same mental/physical/emotional state (basically) in the flashbacks and the flash forwards - i.e., he is in an insane asylum. While Jack is a doctor both in the past and in the future, I don't think anyone would agree that his mental/physical/emotional state is the same. Same for Sayid (maybe). Could this whole adventure be somehow controlled by/ a product of Hurley?

I'm finally giving in to my impulse to ponder the clues deeper...

Why would Ben say he's got a spy on their boat right in front of Charlotte? Of course, that adds simple dramatic effect. And it shows Ben's undaunted confidence and another endless trick up his sleeve. Don't know what to think of the Ben clone idea.

I think the end of the episode revealed that Sayid was working to protect his friends. From who? Ben, or the people Ben is having assinated? On the island, Ben said something to the effect of "with friends like that," when Sayid was made a prisoner. Like others I thought Sayid might be his man on the boat, but I haven't thought about the time issue. But why did he care so much about Naomi's body? That's dang confounding. Sayid tells Lock something like "the day I start trusting Ben is the day I sell my soul." I'm guessing he's made some deal with Ben to protect the other Oceanic people, whether on the island or elsewhere. Maybe those bracelets are trinkets from some Charlie-type figure behind the scenes.

Daniel first panicked when he checked his watch to the time piece of the rocket. Did the island get 31 minutes behind since Daniel arrived? Or 31 behind since the rocket took off? The time pieces were 31 minutes 17 seconds off. Daniel says that the time discrepancy is bad. He's a physicist. I would expect him to say fascinating. But he said it wasn't good at all. I'm guessing it took 31 minutes for the rocket to arrive instead of one. I looked back at the scene and the pilot doesn't give Jack a weird look after the 100 day remark. The weird look came from us, the audience. There are almost too numerous ways to look at those 31 minutes. The rocket should have arrived in just over a minute. It could be the outside world is working 30 times faster. But radio waves seem unaffected. That really would have helped Ben put those dossiers on the passengers so quickly. How can you listen to broadcasts and radio from the outside if the frequencies are speeding by thirty times faster than you (a person on the island)? Of course, if you're on the island for a while, you could develop radios and TV's processors that realign the signals. Anyone know the scientific sh** related to wave speeds. There's a big difference between some atomic clocks being seconds off from each other and time running extremely faster.

Jacob may have an ultimate motive, but he seems to be a bit of a malevolent trickster. There is the Jacob's Ladder aspect. I know the movie better than the biblical story. I remember staying up hours with friends after getting home from the theater after "Jacob's Ladder". I tend to get caught up in the science aspects, then there's all the super natural stuff that you can't use much logic with: ghosts, unexplained healing, the black smoke, pregnancy issues.

There's still all those people kidnapped off the beach at the beginning of season one. Where are they?

Wait... wait... the new people from the chopper. They all have reactions to the plane being found. Why would Daniel cry? Sure maybe he has a connection to someone that's a secret to himself. But what if he'd already returned from the island then later the boat is found. And they get emotional about remembering their experience on the island. The sub footage that finds Oceanic seems fake to me. The voices at least. It felt like a clue that maybe it was all faked by a powerful group. But someone said there's a 2004 calendar in a scene with Miles. The mom wants the spirit gone. Who knows how long the kid had been dead.

Off plot... Hollywood has a lot of Yankee fans. But in the writer's rooms there are much more Cubs and Sox fans. That's the most logical explanation for the Sox stuff.

Ahh, till Thursday.

I think a lot of people and myself believe that it was Sawyer who Kate was talking to in the finale of season 3, but after the latest episode, I was wondering if it could possibly be Ben. Maybe she is also working for him like Sayid. She is a tough woman who has killed before. I think the thought about it being her child is interesting but I think Jack had too much hostility towards whoever it was, which makes me think that it isnt a child or Sawyer. There is way too much going on with this show and trying to think it all out just gives me a headache. I guess I am the only one who really isn't thrilled with this season. I think there is too much being added to the show without ever answer questions from previous seasons. Maybe they will get answered eventually.

I'd just like to mention one thing that I thought of just now:
If it's true that the island is behind (space/time-wise) the rest of the world, then in order to visit it one would have to go back in time.
**Daniel becomes upset when the wreckage of 815 is found and he watches the footage on TV.
**When he is visiting the island, he and the rest of the crew already know about the wreckage being found.
**This means that when he's watching the footage on TV (and doesn't know why he's upset), his visit to the island is in his future. However, he has to go into the past to visit the island.
**Therefore, when he's watching the footage on TV, he has actually already been to the island, even though his visit will happen in the future. Since he's already been there, perhaps he doesn't directly remember, but he still has a emotional reaction about what happened there....

Does this make any sense at all??

"""**This means that when he's watching the footage on TV (and doesn't know why he's upset), his visit to the island is in his future. However, he has to go into the past to visit the island.
**Therefore, when he's watching the footage on TV, he has actually already been to the island, even though his visit will happen in the future. Since he's already been there, perhaps he doesn't directly remember, but he still has a emotional reaction about what happened there....

Does this make any sense at all??""""

Yes. That makes a lot of sense for all the sense memory stuff going on.

guys i calculated.

1 minute (outside the island) multiplied by 30 minutes (on the island judging by how long that thing flew to it) by 100 days makes 3000 days. which is 8,2 "real" years.

cool, eh? it could explain a lot.

** Re: Who's in control

Hey Bigchuckdogg - Yep, I think Future Kate at the airport could be referring to Ben.

Or, Kate might be referring to the same guy Elsa was working for. At the airport with Jack, the way Kate talks about having to get back to "him" sounds a lot like how Elsa is in a big hurry to get to her boss when her beeper goes off.

** Re: the 31 minutes -- Why are we assuming 2:45pm and 3:15pm on the same day? It might be 2:45pm and 3:15am (12 hours later), or 3:15pm on the next day, 2 days later, etc.

** Re: Oceanic 6
- Any connection to who was originally on Jacob's list?
- Just because 6 people are referred to as the "Oceanic 6" by the public doesn't mean those people were all necessarily on the original flight. Obviously the 6 are lying about various stuff to keep up with the deal that was cut to get them off the island.

Another good point nikkil! Whoever it might be, I don't believe its Sawyer anymore. This means that Sawyer may not be one of the Oceanic 6. I also see the point that Ben, Desmond, or other people who are on the island but not in the crash may get off the island and not be part of the Oceanic 6, but I don't think that theres gonna be anyone who was on the flight returning that aren't one of the six. I think that we are clued in that some people are left behind on the island.

The thing I am most interested in, and creeped out by, right now is the cabin. I read an interview with Jorge Garcia talking about the seasoning opener and it being Jack and Claires dad in the rocking chair, but he said in the orignal script it was suppose to be himself (Hurley) in the chair. The only thing is, I watched the scene from season 3 where Locke hears the voice say "help me" and that voice seems to be the same as the actor who plays Jack and Claires dad. Garcia also said he didn't realize that Jack had referred to his dad being alive in the season 3 finale. So do you think he is a straight out liar or tries to confuse the viewers? I also really wanna know why Hurley says he should have gone with Jack instead of Locke.

There is so much more to go on about but it would be never ending. I'm glad I found a place where I can get additional thoughts on all the wackiness of Lost.

Does anyone recall when Ben showed Juliet (in season 2)her sister in the real world playing with her child? I believe Ben showed a copy of the date on a newspaper so Juliet would be convinced he (Ben) was not making up that they had helped her sister with her cancer. Juliet didn't notice any difference of time there could have been. It seemed to Juliet that the time on the island and off the island was the same. Juliet had been on the island maybe for a few months and thats what she saw in the video Ben showed her. This would do away with the times being years different. Just an observation.

Or, KG, Ben could've just showed her an "old" -- in real time -- newspaper.

Okay, this is a bit off topic, but this seems to be the most intellectual group of LOST fans I've found. I have been completely unable to find anyone talking about one clue that is very telling.

On find815.com, one of the clues is the map Ben (Henry Gale, Dorothy Gales uncle and balloonist extraordinaire.) drew to find the balloon. He drew it on the back of a piece of paper and you can see a book title through the paper. The book is called "The Brothers Karamazov" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Brothers_Karamazov). It is about a russian family. The brothers all have issues with the father and eventually one of them kills their father.

"The book is written on two levels: ostensibly, it is the story of a parricide in which all of a murdered man's sons share varying degrees of complicity but, on a deeper level, it is a spiritual drama of the moral struggles between faith, doubt, reason, and free will."

Lost foll