First!

The promo suggests that Jack has Appendicitis.

Excited about the Desmond Chat today.

Last night's episode was mind blowing with so much info! But since the orig 8 episodes are to be cut down to 5, im thinking there's gonna be plenty of info from here.. how long do you guys think we'll have to wait till we see the rest of the season though?

Remember the season opener, when Hurley was saying 'I should never have gone with them'.. I think this path he chose, going with Locke and Ben to find the cabin, to avoid gunfight, is what he may have been referring to.. will be interesting to see what Jacob brings into the picture though..

I like the analysis of "Sayid is forced to choose whether to obey Ben or save Penny for Desmond." If it does happen, I really hope he goes for Desmond.. but if that happens, he'll probably be killed by Ben... Exciting!

The promo also suggested that Keamy is hunting down Sawyer and crew as they make their way back to the beach and they stumble upon Helicopter Frank. So, yeah, I don't think Keamy is dead yet.

I think, at least for me, any weird feelings conjured by this episode is the result of Lost leaving for five weeks and then just waltzing back into my life in such an explosive manner. Before Ben even learned that Alex was their hostage, I turned to my husband and said "I think he would let her die to save himself." Bam, even though it appears Ben didn't *really* think they'd kill her. Lots to chew on... can't wait for next week's episode. Also, for those of us who can't make the special Desmond chat, PLEASE post a transcript!!!!

Hey murtle....there are actually six hours in the second half of this season.....ABC just recently added an extra hour to the finale. So we've got 8 episodes cut down to 6.

First - with the whole importance of Ben trying to kill Penny (which had me screaming "NO!" at the TV screen, and I NEVER do stuff like that), I think we've skipping something else - Ben doesn't appear to be *able* to kill Charles Widmore.

Why is that? Does the island actually connect them in some way?

Next - the Smoke Monster. I find it interesting that Ben could call it from his new hidey hole, yet it went after Juliet and Kate after he had deserted the compound last season. I don't know that it's completely controllable. Or that Ben didn't sneak back. Or that someone else has the secret.

On the death of Alex - the look on Ben's face. It's the most human he's looked throughout the whole series. Bravo, Michael Emerson. (And I loved Widmore noting about the general oddness of Ben's/Emerson's eyes)

Oh - and how do we know Ben programmed the phone system? It could very well be - and probably is - left over from the Dharma Initiative Days, which in itself raises some more questions bout Dharma.

Last - the whole "Australia is the key to the whole game" thing.

Sure, it's filled with import for this show, having the flight - and some Losties - come from Australia. But maybe the writers are just Eddie Izzard fans?

From Dress to Kill (he's talking about European history):

And the German empire, very organized, they'd always build an empire, "ein, zwei, ein, zwei, build an empire", very Prussian, and then they'd celebrate with a World War! And then lose the whole f***ing empire by the end of the war.

In the 30s, Hitler, Czechoslovakia, Poland, France, World War II... the Russian front, not a good idea...! Hitler never played "Risk" when he was a kid...! 'Cause, you know, playing "Risk," you could never hold on to Asia. That Asian-Eastern European area, you could never hold it, could you? Seven extra men at the beginning of every go, but you couldn't f***ing hold it!

Australasia, that was the one! Australasia, all the purple ones! Get everyone on Papua New Guinea and just build up and build up...

How did Jack know that Bernard knew Morse Code? (At least, that's the impression I got when Jack told Bernard he was going to need him.) I'm sure I've forgotten something we learned about Bernard at some point.

Also, what do you think is the significance of placing the Ben-Sayid storyline in Iraq? (Specifically, Oct. 2005, U.S.-occupied Iraq.) I mean, it sounds like Sayid and Nadia were living in L.A. when she was killed. I doubt it could be easy for an Iraqi expat to bring his dead wife back from the U.S. to Iraq for burial during the war. So maybe setting that part of the story served some larger thematic purpose? (At the least, it did provide some parallels and contrasts between the fatigue-wearing mercs at New Otherton and the glimpses of U.S. soldiers in Tikrit. I think this is especially interesting in combination with Jen's point about 14J and Keany and "shock and awe.")

Two comments - It's obvious Liz and Jen didn't watch the actual broadcast since Keany appears in the "coming next week" segment at the end of the show. Way to ruin the suspence ABC. Second, I really didn't like the Ben/Widmore scene at the end. If their rivalry is the main story for next season then the show will be losing its way. In a recent Entertainment Weekly magazine the producers implied next season will be a total "game changer" and there will be little action on the island.

No comments on how protective Sawyer was with Hurley? And, the fact that he calls him Hugo now? "If you touch one curly hair on his head, I'll kill you" line was the best.

This may be totally 'out there' but when I saw Ben and Charles Widmore facing each other last night, I had the creepy sensation that they were the same person - ergo, Ben's inability to kill him(self).

Ok, lets see:

Ben *can't* kill Widmore since Widmore must have people who could time travel and prevent it. Ben is having Sayid kill those who can time travel for Widmore outside the island as Ben identifies them. I think three of them are on the island: Farady, that girl with Farady (can't remember her name right now) and Kearmy (he did survive smokey after all).

On the island these three will be in a time travel war with the Others who can also time travel, and of course Jacob, who Widmore is actually at war with (Ben is just a soldier with high rank).

Last night Ben said he got off the island in Desmond's boat, correct? (I may have heard that wrong). If so my guess is he also had Desmond with him since Ben would be unlikely to know how to sail a boat across the ocean.

Rousseau and Carl must really be dead by now. A shame. We'll never know who Carl was or why he was ever in the story.

I was also a little baffled at how the new Losties had their first appeance only to be shot seconds later. Seemed pretty gratuitous. I actually started to laugh because everytime Sawyer shouted "get down", they got shot, so I screamed at the TV for Sawyer to shut up! I also thought it was hallarious the each Lostie was killed with one shot yet Sawyer survived machine gun fire. The writers may be brilliant but the director is either a dolt or is under severe budget constraints.

On Ben & the Smoke Monster -
I'm not so sure Ben CONTROLS the Smoke Monster. If he did, why would he have that sonic barrier around his compound to protect himself and the Others from the monster? My theory is that Ben knew by his "daughter's" 14J code that the fence was de-activated and therefore the monster could penetrate the compound. Being the quick thinker he is, Ben summoned the monster via some sound/signal he knew would attract the monster. Once attracted, the monster (on its own, not under Ben's control) went after the first humans it got to: Keamy's para-military group.

Right, Jen and Liz, you clearly didn't see the previews. Keany is still alive and looking for the Losties and Jack apparently has appendicitis.

I think that Ben can "summon" Smokey but he can't control Smokey. For instance, if he could control Smokey, Keany wouldn't have somehow survived the attack.

I'm not sure if I'm OK with the plot being turned into a Ben vs Widmore fight, I think it's an interesting story, but I still am invested in my Losties: Hurley, Sun, etc. I hope the writers don't completely favor this new plot line.

Can Ben time travel? Or does he have a "beam me up, Scotty" kind of teleporter, that sometimes deposits him in strange places (the Sahara)?

And good Lord, give Michael Emerson an Emmy already!

I thought this was a tremendous episode and the title really indicated what a lynchpin this is. I no longer really care about the fate of the Losties but I am totally onboard for the next two seasons being the struggle between Ben and Widmore. Michael Emerson has had some good episodes in the past but this should be his Emmy reel. Look at what he was able to do in the course of an hour: Kicking ass in the desert,normally trickster Ben in Iraq, steely, commanding Ben on the island, chillingly threatening in London, and then the real shock and grief w/r/t Alex. Bravo.

Woodbridge, Are you worried the series will have "jumped the shark" if the take it off island?

I still think the show will be great even off the island. The creators have had an vision for the show the whole time, so I think it will still work and be great. At least that is my hope! I am not going to make any judgments.

I thought last nights episode was great! I was excited to see that it was a "Ben" episode. I felt like we would get some answers.

Sully, I think Ben was lying to Sayid about having used Desmond's boat. He seems to have teleported to the Sahara. Sayid in 2005 knows about timeshifting because of his experience on the freighter with Desmond, but he may not know that Ben (and some other Others, such as Tom) can physically leave the island, and Ben has reasons not to reveal that to Sayid, so he just made up a story about using the boat.

I think that whole line about Australia being the key...I think it is a clue for watchers...It was such a quick moment and Hurley threw it away when he said it, so I almost missed it.

Also, Sully, I think he had to think quick on his feet about explaining to Sayid how he got off the island. Otherwise, Sayid never would have agreed to help him if he realized that it was easy for Ben to get off the island from the start. I would be beyond angry to learn that there was a way to get off the island, but instead, I was stuck there, watching people I care for die for a selfish reason.

And, I LOVED the line about Hurley from Sawyer. It is the first time Sawyer verbally acknowledges that they are great friends (perhaps his best friend). It was really touching. :-)

Can't wait for next week! And please, Liz, post chat session from today for those of us that can't participate! Thanks!

Sully is gay.

Is it possible that Ben cannot kill Widmore (and presumably vice versa) because they are each other's constants? Losing such an intense connection with the other might cause a Minkowski-esque brain meltdown, which one would obviously want to avoid.

Ben doesn't kill Widmore because it would be too good for him. It's simple vengeance, not some whacked out time travel problem.

Hmmm, interesting theory, JBS. I love the concept of "constants" and I think it would be apropos that Widmore and Ben are each other's constants.

I think Ben cannot kill Widmore because the Island won't let him, similar to what we have seen in the past with Michael. Charles Widmore has more of a connection to the island than they have admitted to yet. That seemed to be what that little exchange was hinting at.
I am going to postulate a wild theory. Ben and Charles Widmore could potentially be crew from the Black Rock (Captian and first mate? Although I think Jacob plays into this too) who have been kept alive all this time by the power of the island (ties in Widmore buying the ships log at auction, and Ben knowing all of the secrets of the island, like how to get off; a few hundred years would give him plenty of time to learn all of that). The others potentially were the original crew of the ship that got marooned on the island that slowly recruited other people to the island over time.

play one game of risk and you will quickly learn that australia is the key . . . and is often the cause of such arguments of "why are you attacking me and letting him have australia?"

for added fun/mayhem, have each player take a shot of jameson before their turn. things get crazy.

good episode last night, but yes, much different feel from the rest. good enough to keep me watching.

not sure i agree with your assessment of widemore/linus . . . if ben were truly on the island his whole life (or the vast majority), how would he be a foot soldier for widemore? was widemore a major player in dharma? sorry if the answer is obvious . . . with all the stuff going on it's easy to forget some things.

::And good Lord, give Michael Emerson an Emmy already!::

Amen!

While I wouldn't say they're "jumping the shark" if the main focus of the show is off the island, they are heading toward Alias territory. Completely reinventing the show multiple times. What ever happened to the Others for example. While time travel, space-time loops, teleporting, etc. are cool they effectively kill any sense of continuity and logic. There are no real consequences to anything because somebody can go back in time and change things, etc.

Could Widmore be Ben's constant? And maybe vice versa? So if Ben killed Widmore he would become unstuck in time?

Am I a little crazy (possibly) but did the doctor that washed up not look like the doctor that was talking to Desmond on the ship? Didn't the guy who was washed up have stiches on the side of his face to go along with the slashed neck? Are there screen shots of the two?

There are shots of the doctor on Lostpedia: http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Ray_%28doctor%29. I think he's the same person, but you know he was dead and floating in the ocean for a day or two, I think that's the only reason he looks a little different. And if you look at the screen grab on Lostpedia, he has that scar on his cheek when he is found in the ocean.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgG3d7NkPRQ

Yes, on the Charles and Whidmore and Benjamin constants, I had not thought of that.

And yes on controlling where Smokey can go via the magnetic force or fence, not so much controlling it.

BTW: I don't think Rouseau is dead, the other kid yes, but not her. She will be back.

Osteph -- Yes, it was the same doctor on the freighter. Very obvious from Faraday's reaction...

Also, here is a link to some sneak peeks for next week's episode. Scroll down.. Much better than the end of the show sneak peak...

http://spoilerslost.blogspot.com/

If the show moves off-Island to resolve questions about the Dharma Initiative, the Island's existence and its powers, I'm fine with a break from the jungle and beaches. This story is big enough and deep enough to hold my interest if it goes global. I love the direction we're headed in. I only wish I'd paid more attention in lit class!

Ah yes, I was wrong. Thank you, U Street Girl. I should learn to use the pause feature on my DVR a little more!

I like JBS's theory of Ben/Widmore as each other's constants, too. And maybe it was a little too blatant, but I liked how in Widmore's bedroom both he and Ben were shown half in light, half in darkness. We keep getting reminders not to take anything for granted. Something that intrigued me was Ben's exchange with the hotel clerk in Tunisia, about him being a preferred guest. She seemed a little afraid and then hid it quickly. Why would Ben need a special rest stop where people know him or what he is part of? It hints at a much bigger off-island network to me. I got the impression that he was there on other business, saw the TV coverage of Sayid, and went on to Iraq to recruit him. My husband thought he was always headed to Iraq, just used Tunisia as a time travel portal to get close. I'm wondering after the Desmond episode if they really need portals? So tangled. One last thing- what a rotten way to take out Rousseau. Mira Furlan was great in that role and watching her lose Alex and go after Ben, too, would have been interesting...

I was surprised to see how Sawyer was not only concerned about Hugo, but Claire as well. He always said he was a survivor, yet he risked his life to save Claire. I thought it was very interesting.

for the record, my YouTube video link is not a spoiler, so feel free to follow the link. I think you'll all get a kick out of it. here it is again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgG3d7NkPRQ

"Liz: Did I mention that my hatred of Kate is only surpassed by my loathing for Billy Crystal?"

Oh Liz, I want to marry you. :)

How is a flash-forward "time travel"?

That Guy-
I think you're correct in assuming Widmore may have been one of the original crew of the Black Rock (especially since he had such an interest in the ship's log). Richard Alpert may also be from the original Black Rock crew.
I don't think, however, Ben is from the Black Rock b/c in a previous episode in a previous season we saw how Ben was brought to the island by his father. Somehow Ben has learned the history of the island and its secrets (such as Jacob), perhaps from his friendship w/ Alpert (and maybe Widmore) when Ben was just a boy.

Good stuff. I'm enjoying the Ben/Widmore battle and like the idea of the two being each other's constants- I wondered about that theory when Ben was incredulous over Widmore "changing the rules". Also my heart sunk when he showed that emotion for Alex. I agree w/previous posts- that was Emmy worthy acting on Michael Emerson's part.

I was initially annoyed by the smoke monster missing the dude that killed Alex, but I guess after reading other posts, there is no controlling Smokey- I guess it can only be contained and released.

Despite popular opinion, it is not at all clear that Ben can travel through time at will. Remember that the island is time-shifted (probably backwards in time) from the rest of the world, so every time you move from the island back home or vice versa, you travel through time. If Ben made a one-way trip back home, this would be enough to explain why he needed to make sure he got back to the correct year, and it doesn't require us to believe that Ben can time-travel on his own at all.

The more likely explanation is that, for some reason, Ben decided to make the trip back home, possibly through his own private portal. He landed in the middle of the Sahara desert, found his way to Iraq where he hooked up with Sayid, and moved on to London from there. Ben is powerful, but if he could really travel through time, he would have just gone back in time and saved Alex.

Widmore mentioned at the end of the episode that Ben was going to have to search for the island again just like Widmore, so I believe that Ben took a one-way trip back, and that he is at least temporarily stuck back home on terra firma.

I am still loving the show, but I actually believe that Lost jumped the shark in the last episode before the break, when the island wouldn't let Michael kill himself. That is just plain stupid. What if he threw himself into a vat of molten metal ala Terminator 2? What if he jumped off a high-rise building? Would a troupe of circus clowns just happen to be walking by the building with a trampoline? This plot twist threatens to ruin the self-consistency of the show, and I see bad things ahead here.

I believe that the reason this ridiculous plot twist was brought in is that the writers chose the wrong time travel scenario -- the one where you really can go back in time to kill your mother, but something always happens at the last minute to keep you from realizing your plans. Think of the "Terminator" series again, or Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire. You can pull this scenario off if you don't think too hard about it, but more often the paradoxes can wrap around your neck and choke you to death.

I believe that the writers were afraid of a parallel-universe model because they thought that having multiple possibilities would cheapen the experience for their viewers, so instead they bought into the most hackneyed time travel convention of all -- and one which has ruined a lot of other promising science fiction stories. I would hate to see a show like Lost getting trapped in all of those stale time-travel paradoxes, but it looks like that's what's about to happen. Too bad.

By the way, I read the Linden/Cuse interview in the Onion AV club yesterday. They come across as very arrogant and insensitive to their viewers -- "the show is all about the characters, so we'll just throw in enough plot development to keep the viewers happy." Posterity will judge this show not by the relationships between Jack/Kate/Sawyer/Hurley/Ben etc, but by how well the writers can tie together all of the loose threads at the end of the show. I've got my fingers crossed hoping they don't screw it up -- don't let me down, guys...

So glad to have the show back and do like the fact that they got the go-ahead to do 6 post-srike shows, rather than 5 shows. The last show is a 2-hour finale. And Des in his on-line chat, says it is a good one. Can't wait.

As for last night, really good Ben-centric show. There were a couple glitches, most notably the goofy appearances and instantaneous deaths of the three losties. I agree with a poster above who laughed out loud at how they were shot with one bullet (always after Sawyer warned them to get back inside) and yet Sawyer is completely untouched by machine gun fire and Claire survives the mortar destruction of her house. Yet, I'm sure we all saw coming that the unnamed, unspoken background losties were probably going to die convenient deaths. It was just the way these three died. I agree it was bad directing but Cuse/Lindehof did right Sawyer's lines.

Did anyone notice that Widmore had a more pronounced accent when he spoke with Ben last night than in previous shows. Is he supposed to be Scottish as well or even Australian? Alan Dale (Widmore), when he was on the OC, didn't have an accent. Anyone know what his nationality was?

You could be right that the comment about Australia by Hurley could be significant but I just thought it was simply humor. As one of the previous poster's noted, Australia is a key location in the game of Risk because it can only be attacked from one direction. Thus, it is easier to hold on to than other locations on the board. But, there are never throw away lines on this show as Des noted in his chat.

Based upon the Jen/Liz post, I'm assuming they see all episodes of Lost early which gives them more time to prepare for the weekly Lost sessions. If that's the case, I appreciate the fact that they don't give out spoilers. But even if they see the shows early, those early screenings don't include the teasers for the following week or they wouldn't have missed the fact that the head marine survived smokie and that Jack's stomach problems apparently turn out to be caused by a ruptured appendix.

And, though I may be in the distinct minority, I still like the Jack and Kate relationship and actually hope they end up with each other. So, if Kate was sending out a come-hither look at Jack, I say, bring it on : - )

Liz: "Irrational: The opening shot of Kate sitting on the beach taking off her tank top strap. That was just gratuitous. Cue the Swedish Bikini Team!"

Wow. They have Kate moving a strap and you compare it to the Swedish Bikini Team?

Scale, please.

What's wrong with a little gratuitous sensuality? That wasn't even nudity! Besides, they give the ladies a little eye candy, too. How many times have we seen Sawyer unnecessarily shirtless?

I love the part about it being a game between Witmore and Ben. Something greek like the gods playing with the mortels(sp)... Is Ben a mortal(sp) that is trying to become a god. I think they are two ways off the island... 1 - time travel and you end up in the sand... The other being on a boat with only one heading 325 degrees

Alan Dale is a Kiwi, thanks IMDB: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0197638/

I thought Widmore's accent sounded stronger/a bit off last night night too. I don't know if he's supposed to be British, but Penny clearly is.

Ladies - if you read this blog I owe you a better explanation of the Rachmaninov comment on the "Hour" today. There are actually 2 films that scene made me think of: the first was "Rhapsody" (1954) - and the pianist hits the bottle when he chooses love over music. The violinist who chose music becomes wildly successful and the pianist is jealous.

But the second film is "The Seventh Veil" (1945) starring James Mason as the maniacal guardian of a young girl he forces to practice the piano 5-6 hours a day and to eschew her lover. She plays Rachmaninov (well - they play Rachmaninov in "Rhapsody", too).

In "The Seventh Veil" the young girls escapes a hospital room, tries to jump off a bridge, and then spends a lot of time in therapy explaining to her psychiatrist her control freak guardian.

I kinda glommed the two movies together - but Ben really gave me the maniacal James Mason vibe - and I thought "it's not for nothing Charles Widmore is hitting the bottle" - what has he loved? What has he Lost?

One thing more about Australia; as I recall, it was where the Numbers [remember them?] came from.

I don't know what you're talking about pgomes...I'm sure it's hot on the the island...that's why Sawyer keeps taking off his shirt. :-)

Agree that the killing off of the "red shirt" Losties in New Otherton was pretty funny, but I suppose the rest of the people who chose to go with Locke had to be killed off or everyone would start questioning what happened to those people.

Please give Michael Emerson an Emmy already, or two or three!

Why would you (jen and whatsherface) jump to the conclusion Ben has "powers" to summon Smokey? He went into a secret chamber and we didn't see what he did. For all we know, he pushed a button.

Anyways... I also don't like you gals grasping onto the "time travel" theory as if it was established. We know there's time VARIATION, but I really don't think there's any "enter date you wish to go" and boom, he can pop into any time he wants. I think rather there's TELEPORTATION, with possible time variation. Ben asked about the year just to let the viewers know we were in a Flash Forward.

man, i had a good laugh when the unnamed losties were gunned down. who on earth runs towards gun shots?

"hey, do you hear gun shots?"

"yeah, lets run outside"

wtf? if only they had done that to nikki and paulo. on the first day.

line of the night, in my opinion . . .

"surrender, surrender"
"oh, you do speak english"

what a bad mf'er.

"By the way, I read the Linden/Cuse interview in the Onion AV club yesterday. They come across as very arrogant and insensitive to their viewers"

Um, Steve, isn't the Onion a satire? As in, there are soley making jokes and probably didn't even interview the writers?

Whoops, they're not there.

Thanks Arby, the theories on this site are starting to get embarrasing.

Okay, I know this may be borderline Lost heresy but am I the only one who is really, aggressively bored by the smoke monster plotline? I mean, I love the show, I am crazy about Desmond/Penny and the time travel and all that stuff. But the smoke monster? I kind of hate it. Maybe I won't hate it once I understand what it actually is but for now, it sort of makes me roll my eyes.

re 4:33-- Actually, The Onion's AV Club is not part of the satire. The interviews are real and often quite good. (BTW, I didn't find LindeCuse as offputting as the previous poster did.)

To: Anonymous @4:33 PM

No, the Onion AV Club is separate from the Onion's main page. It's a "serious" web site which interviews film and music personalities, reviews music, runs Dan Savage's columns, etc. Go to the Onion and click on the "A/V club" link at the top. Yes, there is an interview with Linden and Cuse on there and yes, it's real. These two guys appear to have gotten so arrogant that they've forgotten who their real clients are -- the viewers...

By the way, the killing off of the Red Shirts on last night's episode was probably meant as an inside joke, just like the continuous references to the mythical survivor "Steve" in season 1. As soon as you see a survivor you've never seen before, you know they're destined for an imminent death, and I think the writers are poking fun at us when they killed them off in a fraction of a second -- not just one but three of them. Just like they did with Nikki and Paolo -- "you don't like them? We'll make them die the most horrible death you could imagine..."

Speaking of Survivors, is Amanda the stupidest survivor in history? All she had to do was to make Jason paranoid enough to just play his idol (which shouldn't have been too hard after Natalie rooted through his backpack), which would have nullified the votes of the girl alliance. Then she could vote for Parvati along with James, and Amanda's in full control of the game. Instead, she blew her one big chance to split up the block-o-gals, and instead she'll be sitting on the Jury in another day or two, watching Cirie weasel her way to the finish line. Although it was worth it to see the look on Jason's face...

Okay - got sidetracked by WORK of all things. (Don't my clients know I must talk about Lost on Fridays? ;) ).

At any rate, the opening of this YouTube clip is Eddie Izzard on Risk. A few instances of the F word, and he's in transvestite regalia, so probably NSFW...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6omQ5JjjLsE

what kind of douchebag watches lost AND survivor? do you think that makes you better than the rest of the survivor DBs?

Yeah, I'll admit that I'm slumming by watching Survivor. My wife and I have been watching this show ever since season 1. This show is a monument to both Machiavellian intrigue and extreme stupidity. It's been all downhill after All-Stars, which was Survivor's greatest season (the introduction of Exile Island was Survivor's "Jump the Shark" moment), but something still keeps us watching.

I also watched Twin Peaks, and I still remember how I felt when that show fizzled out after such a promising start. I guess that's where my concern about Lost comes from -- this show has been so good that we're all heavily invested in it. If the writers screw it up by an overly casual aproach towards the clues and mysteries at the heart of this show, we'll all look back at this as just another grand experiment that ended in failure. As Bart Simpson's friend Milhaus said when describing a failed love affair, "It started out like Romeo and Juliet, but it ended in tragedy..." ;^)

I'm keeping my fingers crossed, but Michael's "I can't kill myself" episode has made me very nervous...

I'm going to jump on the bandwagon with ThatGuy and HarryMerkin with the idea that Widmore is the Captain of the "Black Rock." They could prove it by showing an old photo of him and penny when she's an infant and he looks exactly the same. Has a "Highlander" kind of ring to it ...

Would someone w/ a hi-res screen do me a favor? Please watch the end of Ben's confrontation w/ Charles Widmore at the conclusion of the "Shape of Things to Come" episode. There are two paintings in this scene. One is to the left of Widmore's bed and is a masted sailing ship. Possibly the Black Rock? The other painting is in the hallway outside of Widmore's bedroom and can be seen as Ben is exiting Widmore's bedroom. On the far left of this painting is a barren tree with only one branch. In the background is a mountain (perhaps volcanic). In the middle of the painting is a body of water. A lake? A lagoon? Does this scene look like any scene on the island? Also, are these paintings similar to any that exist in Ben's house on the island? (By the way, neither painting is of dogs as in Jacob's cabin.) Any help/discussion will be appreciated.

Whatever the time/location shifts are all about....

this show made me think about the episode where Dead Charlie told Hurley he had to go back to the island to "help them" - Hurley is so tender and caring with Baby Aaron, and he agrees to help Ben and Locke w/ the trip to the creepy Jacob Cabin.

I know he is one of the few who has seen the cabin, another reason he needs to go, but still, he knows he needs to do it.

He might be back on the island after having left it already - and now that he's back there he doesn't know what his future will be, ie that he gets off the island safely in the end. Time loop?
maybe not, maybe some of them (the six?) HAVE to go back to tie up unfinished business - they seem so miserable back home maybe they need to get lessons learned to get on track again.

I wouldn't trust Kate as far as I could throw her, but her little Victoria's Secret move also made me think that some of the characters were *back *on the island after having gotten off the island already. The hot vibe between Kate and Jack seemed new and fresh, pre-Sawyer and all those complications. As if they need to start over again on the island so they won't have such conflict and unhappiness when they get back home.

It WAS absurd that Sawyer survived all the bullets Rambo style. That aside, I think he is redeeming himself by moving beyond his former selfishness. By redeeming himself on the island, he will not need to go"home" - he'll be resolved. Dharma.

Also - despite all the objections to this idea, I think the story does involve the problem of time travel paradoxes. "You shouldn't be here," "I can't die" "I can't kill you" --- lots of hints of this along the way. And so I think that Widmore really DID change the rules by somehow disrupting the rules of paradox when he killed Alex - and Ben is confused, surprised, pissed.

But Ben is messing with Sayid - after "recuiting" Sayid to help him he turns and walks away with that creepy little grin. I keep wanting to like Ben afterall, but he always ends up menacing.

Iraq - THAT was a surprise. Maybe the island is Guantanmo Bay -isolated, confusing, messing with everybody's head.
(okay I'm not serious about this idea)

I'm sure there are a gazillion ways these ideas can be refuted but there you have it from this fan.

Camis

Hey, no spoilers for other shows! I happen to watch Survivor and am several weeks behind. I never expected to have it blown for me on a Lost discussion!

Steve @5:10 pm

no shame in watching "Survivor" though I think that Jason is the dumbest. Amanda did blow it for herself and I agree that she is short-lived for the season. Were she cognizant of her actual precarious position, she would've tipped off Jason to use the idol and she, James and Jason could've voted out Parv or Cirie.

however, were I Parv or Cirie, I would have hoped for Amanda to flip and had the girl-block of 4 vote for James. Ultimately, they'd flush the idol out of Jason, vote out James (super strong guy), and then the four would be able to take their time picking off the other three.

oh yeah, and "Lost" rocked. I do agree that the Michael-episode had me worried, and if this show goes the way of "Alias," I think that I'll have to track down J.J. Abrams to give him a piece of my mind for ruining two shows that had such promise!

" Liz Kelly: Taking the time loop theory again, you can't change fate by traveling through time. It will self-correct -- which is why Charlie ultimately had to die, no matter how many times Desmond (Des!) saved him. Ultimately, it self corrects. "

Interesting thought I had to this comment... Charlie died however. But, he was needed later to open the hatch and enter the code to stop the radiojamming... Desmond flips back in time to save Charlie. Charlie still dies, due to lightning, drowning, etc... repeat. Des finally gets the exact time correct to "save" Charlie from death in order for Charlie to go to his death mission in the hatch. So,in essence Des wasn't saving Charlie, he was preserving him so that he could fulfill his mission - unjam the signal and let the losties live to be rescued. (kinda like groundhog day, sorry for the bad 80s movie reference)

Hmm....... But was that really such a good idea after all - to unjam the radio and allow Widmore's people contact with the island?

maybe someone on here can help us decipher one of Ben's lines at the end of the episode. When Ben tells Charles that he's going to kill Penny, Charles tells Ben he'll never find Penny. Then Charles says the island is his and he will have it again. Does Ben say "You'll never find it." or "She'll never find it." that is Penny will never find it? We couldn't tell what he said but if he said "She'll" never find it, then maybe that means he knows Penny is also looking for the island/Desmond?
Any thoughts?

I could not tell if he said "She'll" or "He'll" never find it, but lean toward "She'll never find it." Hmmm.

If Hurley is the key to finding Jacob, why were they following Ben?

Ben obviously killed Nadia, to get Sayid to help him. But why would Sayid be so stupid. He is Ben's equal in diabolical cunning.

I could not tell if he said "She'll" or "He'll" never find it, but lean toward "She'll never find it." Hmmm.

If Hurley is the key to finding Jacob, why were they following Ben?

Ben obviously killed Nadia, to get Sayid to help him. But why would Sayid be so stupid. He is Ben's equal in diabolical cunning.

Perhaps Ben knows the general direction of where Jacob's cabin is but they need Hurley to "see" it?

Oops, hit send before I completed my thought....

or maybe Ben wants to see what kind of powers Hurley has and/or how Jacob responds to Hurley?

April - hmmm.... well, I can never remember the details.

But I think Ben freaked out when he learned that Hurley had seen the cabin and encountered Jacob. That's when I got the impression that the cabin only reveals itself to a few people, meaning they have some kind of important connection to it.

But you're right. Ben knows where the cabin is, so why does he need Hurley to go with him? Unless he wants to find out why Hurley has been included in the exclusive Creepy Cabin Club .
One more bit of info he might be able to exploit ?

Gak! I don't even remember who Jacob is.

Ben's father? Locke's father? Nobody's father?

cool

Is it wrong for a man like him to have tall model ?? You know it is an absolutely extramarital relationship, but more and more services come out on Internet focusing on this kind of relationship..like the famous and largest dating site ---Tallhub.c om---. what will the world be??

Hello! I thought it was a very good episode; I really liked it. But I have a few questions that I wonder if someone could help clarify.

What kind of weapon does Ben have when he's found by the riders, and later also behind his back when entering the building where Mr. Widmore lives?

Also, where the riders in the desert armed because they were guarding a Dahrma portal, or were they just passing by?

My impression about the dialog between Ben and Mr. Widmore was that they are blood-related, relatives, perhaps even brothers. I realize that this interpretation is at odds with Ben's flashback on how he was born and arrived to the island. Maybe Mr. Widmore was, at some time of Ben's upbringing in the island, a kind of mentor (on the side of the natives); otherwise I can't understand why Mr. Widmore addresses Ben as "... you boy ..." I suppose I'm confused by this because english is not my native language.

I am also puzzled that Ben seems very well educated (he even knows how to extract bullets, as at the end of Sayid's flash-forward episode), not quite in line with the way his father treated him or, I guess, with the kind of education that Dahrma would have offered him. I thought, given the way he was dressed, that he was a "work-man" at the time of the purge. Is that correct?

Also, how can somebody like Ben be at the same time so transparent that everyone in the other's camp knows and laughs or fears about him having a crash on Juliette, and at the same time be so sophisticated and controlled to credibly "advise" Sayid to get on with his life instead of becoming trapped in a revenge world?

This last episode , with Ben's threat to Mr. Widmore at the end, reminded me of the revenge chain upon the children in Titus Andronicus.

Thank you for any answers, clarifications, or thoughts.

for

With everyone typically jumping on every literary reference to give further clues to the show, what can be taken from Ben giving his name in Tunisa as Dean Moriarty, one of the main characters from "On The Road"? It has been too long since I have read that book. Anyone have any insights?

I think the reason Ben needs Hurley along is because the cabin somehow moves around the island; it isn't stationary. Remember the show when Locke was taking the losties to the cabin but couldn't find it and Hurley says that he had just come from the cabin which was in a different location than Locke recalled. So maybe Ben can't locate the cabin either and recognizes that Hurley now has that power, whatever that power might be. Thus, the need for Hurley.

There clearly has to be some connection between Ben and Widmore which is why Ben can't kill him. I think the best theory so far is that Widmore is Ben's constant for some reason.

Re the weapon that Ben had, on the weekly Post chat colum they had a link to the maker of the devise. It's some type of expandable baton, not a knife.

Finally, to Laura. Chill out. There are quite a few fans of both Survivor and Lost. I am one of them and have been since day one for both shows. One is pure escapism and the other makes you think and write to these chat sites to share thoughts and theories. No need to denigrate Steve for being a fan of both. And Steve, I agree. Amanda blew it this week. She won't make top 4 now.

Dean Moriarty is the guy that Jack Kerouc hooks up with for his travels across the country and on to San Francisco.

He is usually thought of as Kerouac's "sidekick" but in many ways he is driving their adventures, being already immersed in the Bohemian scene in San Francisco. Some think Moriarty and Kerouac had, at least briefly, a sexual relationship. I have no ide , but the writer Joyce Johnson, who WAS involved with Kerouac told me she thought it might be true.

(cf her book "Minor Characters")

The fact that Moriarty is considered "secondary" to Kerouc made me wonder if Ben is or was "secondary" to Widmore.
A student, an employee, younger relative - something - who left him to go out on his own, as has been suggested above.

Moriarty was ultimately a kinda bad influence on people.

Again, please -- stop with the Survivor spoilers! Or at the very least, give some warning in all caps. I'd like to read people's thoughts on Lost without ruining my backlog of Survivor episodes.

It cracked me up how Ben had weapons hidden around the cabin that no one knew about, especially the one in the piano bench. Just brilliant!

A proposal for the translation of the hyeroplphs at Ben's door at:
http://movv.org/2008/04/27/lost-perdidos-s4e09-%e2%80%9cthe-shape-of-things-to-come%e2%80%9d-spoilers/

I'm pretty sure Ben says "You'll never find it" to Widmore at the end.

Though I'm confused why he would say this since multiple people on the Freigther have explicitly stated they are working for Widmore - so clearly Widmore has found the island. It seems like Ben would have said, "You'll never find it again". Can anyone work this out? The writing on this show is too tight and exact for this to have been a mistake.. is there some time traveling going on? I can't seem to work it out.

Hurley has now chosen to go with Locke twice. Is this second time the one he is regretting in the flash forwards? I can't wait to see what they're going to find at Jacob's cabin, I don't think it's going to be good - and it may be disturbing enough to Hurley to send him back to the Looney bin.

Arby wrote: "Ben asked about the year just to let the viewers know we were in a Flash Forward."

I don't think so. Just finding Sayid and asking how Ben how he got off the island should have been enough to clue you into the flash forward. Ben seemed sure of the date but just wanted to "make sure", which left me with the impression that the teleportation can be finiky timewise.

I don't think Ben time traveled to Tunisia. I think he teleported on the same day he arrived. As the scene opened, I realized he must have teleported since the samds reminded me of the Dharma bear they found in Tunisia. Then I thought back to Julia having to be sedated for the "trip", which I've been convinced did not happen by sub but through teleportation, then I thought Ben should be getting sick, just before he threw up. That is the first time since watching this show that I actually made a prediction that came true. What a wonderful feeling.

Another poster wondered how how well educated Ben seemed to be, being able to extract bullets, well read, etc. If Ben mind-travels for a living, he is probably 100 years old and mind-traveling back to change events to his benefit. In fact, I think that is what the show is all about, mind-traveling back to change the present, and both Widmore and Ben are locked in a mind-traveling-manipulating war over the island. Its important to remember what Faraday told Desmond when Des mind-traveled back and found Faraday. Faraday said that time travel was impossible, but conscienceness could be moved forward and back in time (with a constant of course). I also agree with the poster who said that time travel was not happening but time variation was. A good point. Time varies all the time (pun). When you are talking to a person 3 feet away, you see them as they were 0.000000003 seconds ago. Step further away and the difference grows. You see the moon as it was 1.5 seconds ago and the sun as it was 8 minutes ago. In all of those cases distance causes the time variation, but gravity can do the same thing. Astronauts in the space station age more quickly relative to us on earth. Their clocks are actually moving faster since they are further away from the gravity of earth than we are though it can be measured only in nanoseconds. So time variation exists on very small scales. It seems the island can make larger effects somehow.

I don't think Widmore and Ben are each other's constants. Since they seem to be at war I doubt they would work to help each other mind-travel, but Ben does need a constant but I don't think we know who that is yet since it would be someone Ben would protect, and Ben only seemed to be protecting his daughter and no one else. So maybe his daughter was his constant, and Widmore killed her. Penny may be Widmore's constant. Sayid may be Ben's new constant.

I also found it interesting how Ben tried to tell Sayid to go home, that this was not Sayid's war. Ben seemed almost human at that point, but now I'm wondering if Ben did that just to manipulate Sayid into wanting to help Ben even more.

I've come to the conclusion that smokey is a bunch of magnetic particles moved around through magnetism that is controlled by Jacob. Its not controlled by Ben and Ben may actually be telling the truth when he says he does not know what it is, just that he can ask Jacob to summon it when needed. That would take an impressive amount of energy though. And as we saw with the Swan station implosion, magnetism can be generated on this island in great qualtities, so a cloud of magnetic particles controlled by a large magnetic field seems plausable. But who is controlling it, and why did it kill the copilot but spare Eko only to kill him later? I really hope when this show is over that they tie up these loose ends.

Lost at Work wrote: "I can't wait to see what they're going to find at Jacob's cabin, I don't think it's going to be good - and it may be disturbing enough to Hurley to send him back to the Looney bin."

My theory as to Hurley's sanity is that Hurley is insane, or at least mentally challenged, and like Locke's paralysis and Rose's cancer, the ailment disappears when on the island. When Hurley gets off the island, it returns. That is how he was able to "see" Charlie. Charlie was not real but was only in Hurley's mind. That may be why Hurley regrets leaving the island.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gil_Perez

A search on Wikipedia turned up the date October 24 in 1593 as the date a Gil Perez was supposed teleported from one spot to another. Interesting entry.

"Gil Pérez was a Spanish soldier of the Filipino Guardia Civil who allegedly suddenly appeared in the Plaza Mayor of Mexico City on October 24, 1593. He was wearing the uniform of the guards of Palacio Del Gobernador in the Philippines, and claimed he had no idea how he had arrived in Mexico. Historians doubt the accuracy of the story, which does not appear in writing until a century after the supposed event."

Charles Widmore is a very rich and powerful man. If he was the captain of the black rock, as some are speculating, wouldn't someone have noticed that he has never aged? How would he explain that to people? Especially Penny.

If everything is as connected as I am reading here, why isn't anyone asking if Penny is Widmore's mother?!

didonhe asked: "Charles Widmore is a very rich and powerful man. If he was the captain of the Black Rock, as some are speculating, wouldn't someone have noticed that he has never aged? How would he explain that to people? Especially Penny."

Why couldn't he be the captain of the black rock AND be his normal age? As was hinted at by Ben in Tunisia, the teleportation can play tricks with time. Eko's brother's plane evidently was transported to the island, why not the Black Rock, but from the past. The crew would have disappeared in, what, 1800(?) and arrived on the island in say 1980. They discover Dharma and with Ben's help wipe them out, they learn the technolgy and become the Others. Widmore may have been the captain who set off with some of the crew to plunder the world using the abilities they learned on the island (mind-travel, teleportation, etc). Other crew members mutinied and were left on the island (The Others). With Ben's help they fortified the island to keep Widmore and his crew out and have been in a war since. That makes the Others the good guys who are about to take the fight off-island into the world (going from defense to offense).

I think its a tossup as to why the Losties were brought to the island since it seems they did not arrive by accident. It could have been Widmore putting people there who would end up attacking the Others as has happened pretty successfully, followed up by Widmore's freighter with more troops. Or it could have been Ben who brought them there, a surgeon to take out his tumor, pregnant women for Julia to experiment on, people who can see Jacob, and troops (Sawyer) to fight the eventual freightee troops, as we saw in this episide. So I see some Losties has having a long term purpose, such as Locke who seems to understand the island and its abilities, and short term purposes, like Jack who was only brought to do some surgery. In the end I'm leaning toward Ben having brought the Losties to the island, and Widmore put the plane on the ocean floor to help hide the island's existance. Neither wants to destroy the island or have it found, and so they play by the "rules", which Widmore has now broken. And now that the rules are broken, smokey is used ot kill Widmore's troops with ease, and Ben heads off island to wipe out Widmore and his pirate friends forever. This is the shape of things to come, and killing Ben's daughter started what will come to pass.

Good comments as usual by Sully.

Sully's an idiot. Maybe Ben, Widmore, Jack, and Kate are all the same person, aged 497, and trying to preserve the island in order to impregnate the smoke monster to give birth to hatches.

You people are a bunch of freaks.

I'm lost

I wonder why the posters on 29 April at 4:25 and 5:02 are reading this site? Clearly nothing constructive for them to do.

emcdoj, stop being such a NAZI.

hi. im dave

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