The Impeachment Crowd

In the seven months I've been monitoring comments, I've seen nothing to match the number of respondents to former Sen. George McGovern's call Sunday for the impeachment of President Bush and Vice President Cheney. Despite their volume (more than 2,000 at this hour) the comments are easy to summarize: our Readers Who Comment either think the former Democratic candidate for president has a great idea or that he's nuts. There is no middle ground.

McGovern may be an ancient liberal has-been who was trounced by Richard Nixon in 1972, but he has twanged a raw nerve displayed by a number our RWC during those same seven months. Comments on many political articles and almost all Iraq War articles invariably have Why Not Impeach? questions. Sometimes they just call for impeachment, other times they do that and also ask very specifically why House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) isn't getting the process under way.

And that brings us to today's offering from Jonathan Weisman on the eve of the New Hampshire primary. Weisman examines whether Sen. Barack Obama's call for bipartisanship can actually work, and cites a number of presidents who ran on pledges to unite the country but didn't exactly deliver. Nonetheless, Weisman reports, Republicans view Obama's appeal with both skepticism and fear -- fear that it might work.

First, a brief look at comments on the McGovern article.

Casey1 said that "Bush/Cheney should have been impeached a long time ago. The problem has been a fearful, Democratic majority that has willingly handed its constitutional powers over to the White House rather than use those powers to protect the people they represent..."

But foxlumder wrote, "...Mr. McGovern is horridly out of touch with reality. His remarks are straight party policy and anyone who fails to see that is intentionally blind.
Mr. McGovern is way off the mark on this one. Way off."

charlie8 said, "It won't probably happen but McGovern is correct. In order to maintain the integrity of the office these two must be sanctioned..."

KJB013 opined, "Some things never change. McGovern was a middle aged idiot 40 years ago. Now he's an old idiot. The same views that led him down the path to nowhere years ago now keep him company on his path to small footnotes in american history books. Sad, isn't it?"

MacRandall asked, "Was this an attempt by the WaPo to show that only pathetic losers actually think impeachment is somehow justifiable?"

And jhbyer summarized, "Readers gone wild from guzzling 200 proof truth."

Now to the article about the "post-partisan" Obama.

We'll start with BartonKeyes, who wrote that "The increasingly attractive fact about Obama is that more and more Americans are coming to believe that Obama can siginificantly reduce the partisan divide and gets things done... But whether he actually can will require more than overcoming Washington's entrenched belief that partisanship works. It will require Obama to come up with a bi-oartisan consensus... If partisanship needs to end in Washington, Americans themselves need to first be more united on the major issues."

kase said that "The naked fear is growing among the stupid...Obama is gaining momentum and they will not be able to stop him. Obama will beat any of the Greedy Old People party but my fervent hope is that they run Huckabee...What a landslide!"

And goldie2 asked, "So what has been working so well with the rank partisanship approach? We aren't getting anything done. How do fist fights solve anything?... Right now, partisanship is just a swamp and everyone is sinking except those at the top."

But RoboFlop said, "... I've lost my trust in government. If I don't trust them with small, incremental changes, why does he think I'll trust them with large, sweeping changes? That's why I'm a Republican. I think government is a necessary evil that should be as small as possible, in order for us to remain free people."

MPatalinjug wrote that Obama "...is either a starry-eyed neophyte as far as Washington and national politics are concerned, or... a cynical politician... With the country deeply and long divided politically and ideologicall between "conservative"Republicans and "liberal" Democrats, and with the ideological fissures so wide as to be unbridgeable, no such "post-partisan" Obama regime will ever happen..."

PJTramdack said, "...When you come up with an idea and hear a chorus of "can't do its" from the people with the most to lose, you KNOW you're on the right track... Obviously the GOP is going to run scared when they see somebody who unplugs the fear and hate machine. That's all they've had to sell in a generation."

morningglory51 wrote, "I think Obama is too wet behind the ears to solve the worlds probelms,and makes a lot of grand promises he can't keep..."

And Casey1, quoting the article, asked, "This is what Republicans fear? 'Federally run health care, government-mandated energy changes and a rapid pullout from Iraq'? If these are the issues that make Republicans afraid of the American people, they'd better renew their anxiety prescriptions. These are the things the American people want!..."

All comments on McGovern's article are here.

All comments on the Obama article are here.

By Doug Feaver | January 7, 2008; 9:45 AM ET
Previous: A Storm of Comments | Next: New Hampshire vs. Gibbs

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Posted by: lsorp aoub | February 11, 2008 1:52 AM

Just a reminder that most of the poorly-written replies bashing McGovern and the democrats occurred because some hard-core right-wing site sent out an email to it users asking them to post comments. So, most of the 'support' for Bush comes from a few dead-enders....

Posted by: Tom | January 8, 2008 8:07 PM

When are you people going to realize that laws are only written for the peasantry? The rich and powerful in the U.S. have always been above the law. Clinton was impeached only because the rich and powerful wanted him impeached. The peasantry didn't want this. Now the peasantry wants Bush and Cheney impeached. Those who own this country do not. I wonder who's running this country, the peasants or those who own them. Trying to impeach these two should give you the answer.

Posted by: | January 8, 2008 11:11 AM

THE ABBREVIATED BEHIND THE SCENE VERSION "Why I Believe Bush Bust Go" by Georgia McGovern
Hey, I'm just an old washed up political hack with a history of failures. If I can say anything at all now to influence the unsuspecting "undecided" who don't pay attention until the last minute and have no core beliefs and vote for anybody that makes them "feel good", I'll do my part.
He##, I've nothing to lose, it's not like it takes courage or anything.
THE END
Ps. To the Democratic Party. No personal or company checks please, make that a money order or cashiers check only. Glad to do my part as a proud American. And damn this publicity will really help me hock my new book.

Posted by: truthseeker | January 8, 2008 11:02 AM

If the Democratic Congress had a scintilla of evidence you can bet your gluteus maximus they would without reservation proceed in impeachment. The congressional approval rating was the lowest in history at less than 11%. Don't you think they wanted to avoid this. They realize it's nice talk to have impeachment talk in the background to help their cause by fooling some but they had ZERO evidence for actual impeachment and to proceed would have put their rating even lower. You can't impeach based on the hearsay, conjecture, distorted and biased information, hate or the aberrant hormones of WP posters.
Get a life if that's possible.

Posted by: truthseeker | January 8, 2008 10:56 AM

dear mr. feaver,

24 hours later, you *still* haven't done any work on this column in order to make it say something?

you *still* haven't just gone through the reactions to the mcgovern piece, in order to get a count of how many agreed and how many disagreed?

don't you realize that blogs can be updated? and that blog-readers *expect* updates?

look, i don't want to accuse you of every sin in the msm playbook, but, fer chrissake, this just looks lazy.

you have a genuine story on your hands--mcgovern's call for impeachment provokes a strong reaction. but instead of *investigating* the story, by finding out whether it was a strong reaction *in favor* of impeachment or *against* impeachment, you do the tired, pathetic, lazy thing of saying "gee, there were opinions on both sides!"

couldn't you just assign a copy boy to do the task? what, is jimmy olson busy making a coffee run?

i mean, the two competing theories here are:
1) too intellectually lazy to break out of the msm mindset that every you have to present a "balanced" picture even of wildly unbalanced facts, or
2) you are just in the tank for the bush crime family, and afraid to say out loud that the vast popular consensus favors impeachment followed by prosecution.

so, you know, me calling you "lazy" is pretty generous, don't you think?

Posted by: | January 8, 2008 10:45 AM

Bush & Cheney did more damage to the world than 10 Saddams, killing many times more Iraqis than he did in the process. After impeachment send them to the Hague tribunal to face the same charges that the Nurenberg defendants did: launching a war of agression. And let Tony Blair & John Howard join them!

Posted by: Paul | January 8, 2008 7:00 AM

Funny how support for Clinton's impeachment is such a good predictor of opposition to Bush's impeachment.

Lie about a consensual blow job and you're evil - lie about a list of crimes as long as your arm and you're apparently untouchable.

This irony seems almost entirely lost on mainstream US media which, were it impeachable, should also be impeached.

Posted by: AlanDownunder | January 8, 2008 4:49 AM

I support impeachment, if for no other reason than the stonewalling of congressional investigations by the White House. If there are no serious consequences to autocratic actions by this administration, then we may never get to the truth about all of the abuses and scandals. The threat of impeachment brings one new reality to the table: leverage.

Posted by: Richard Myers | January 8, 2008 4:24 AM

The problem with impeaching Bush is that the Republicans did it to Clinton for purely political purposes. People then lost faith that impeachment would be used only as a tool for justice. Republicans tarnished it, to the delight of Bush/Cheney.

Republicans do everything just because they can. Redistrict Texas out of cycle. Recall California's governor. Spend the citizen's money like pigs in a trough. Stealing the vote in Florida. All because they can.

I would not have made such blanket statements about Republicans years ago, but you would be a fool not to see what they have become.

I don't trust Republicans to be honorable and ethical.

Posted by: DM | January 8, 2008 12:00 AM

McGovern is exactly right. All the "conservatives" decrying his points in this comment thread demonstrate how far respect for the Constitution and rule of law has depreciated in this country. I'd add that it appears the Bush fanatics have embraced an entirely different kind of nation and government than the one the Founding Fathers envisioned. Anyone who argues that Bush and Cheney have not violated their oaths to protect and defend the Constitution is simply putting party before country, and demonstrating awefully well the threats of faction, and civic ignorance, to our national government's integrity and viability.

Posted by: tim silva | January 7, 2008 11:57 PM

At 61 I never felt that Nixon did not genuinely care about the United States-no matter unforgiveable his actions may have been. I cannot say the same for George W. Bush. I honestly believe he does not even have affection for America let alone loyalty. He will manipulate fear and patriotism without any genuine concern for my country. I suppose that having lived this long it was inevitable that sooner or later a person would become president whose model was the former Soviet satellites. I just never thought it would have been a president's son. A president who I voted for. As alarmed as I am at W's actions I can only imagine the shame and embarassment his father must feel. His father was a good man. His son is not.

Posted by: Big Drop | January 7, 2008 11:04 PM

My favorite bumper sticker of 2007, seen on a pickup truck in Raleigh, NC: "Don't Blame Me, I Voted For McGovern"

Kind of says it all, doesn't it?

Posted by: George Doctoroe | January 7, 2008 10:15 PM

Bad news for Republicans, if Bush/Cheney are not impeached, then Hillary or Obama can sic the justice department and FBI on anybody they want .... best thing for Republicans to is cut off the phones, cell phones, iPods, cable tv, and start using barter to get suff. Give me that Renoir, and I will give you all my dog food. Nope, just the dog food unless you got a van Gogh. Don't get pushy unless you want to rendered to Libya. Yeah, just like Hitler, only Bush goes to bed earlier.

Posted by: Harrison Picot | January 7, 2008 10:14 PM

"McGovern may be an ancient liberal has-been who was trounced by Richard Nixon..." Then again, maybe he's not, so Doug may be parodying the baser of "the base" who call this elder statesman a loser for being, I guess, a decorated WWII combat vet, an ordained minister, a prof with a PhD, a published historian who served for over a 1/4 century in the US Hous e and Senate, who at 85, dared to dis Bush in WaPo. Yes, he lost one whole election none of us here has risen to strive. That it's mocked by no less than our Doug, suggests why we circle the drain in Iraq, vainly wishing to win for the sake of not losing, there being nothing left to win but more loss, as if what we've lost weren't enough loss.

Posted by: jhbyer | January 7, 2008 10:05 PM

I can't imagine sleeping at night knowing that most of the country would never vote for me and felt that Gore should have won. There is true hatred out there for the two of them. Hope George Sr. is proud. If it were me, my dad would kick my you know what if my approval rating was so low.

Posted by: Jonathan | January 7, 2008 9:58 PM

They think they are angry. lol. Just wait until we have a democrat president and there is a terror attack. Half the country won't be calling for his impeachment; they will be actively seeking his head.

Posted by: Demsdontgetit | January 7, 2008 9:49 PM

i completely agree with every word George McGovern said. The only thing that incenses me is that your newspaper hasn't published more views like it. It's about time to bring back the rule of law in America. I want to be proud of hailing from a democracy again.

Posted by: j_in_paris | January 7, 2008 8:54 PM

In regard to Mr. Feaver's analysis of the comments on Mr. McGovern's "Why I Believe Bush Must Go" column, he might have found it enlightening to click on the commenters' handles to see just how many were first-time posters the created an identity apparently just to rebut the column. Mr. Feaver's "representative" commenter "FoxLumber" is one of them (KJB013 and MacRandall, however, have posted before). One of the most prolific commenters, edfarmeriii, came into existence for the sole purpose of bashing Mr. McGovern.

A little more analysis and a little less artificial but misleading "fair & balanced" (i.e., "If I chose a pro comment, I gotta follow it with a con comment") might provide more insight into the views of WaPo's readers.

The best consolation, however, is the good chance that we'll see a link to Mr. McGovern's column come December when WaPo publishes it's top ten "most viewed" list.

Posted by: MultiplePOV | January 7, 2008 8:44 PM

McGovern is a respected veteran who served his country in the military and in the US Senate.

His observations are spot on; and, the US citizens would do well to read and understand McGovern's remarks on the very serious subject of Constitutional provisions for the impeachment of elected officials.

Generals, preachers, laypersons, members of Congress and of local government have been vocal in speaking of Bush/Cheney's lies and malfeasance. If we don't act, we can at least pay attention and listen.

Posted by: suzeq | January 7, 2008 7:41 PM

I worked at the White House before Bill Clinton's impeachment hearings. I was ashamed of him and what he did - but was it impeachable??? HELL NO!

What GW and Dick have done is so much worse it screams for impeachment! GW blew a chance to fight a global war against terror with his Iraq war obsession - which Dick pushed for so his buddies in the defense industry could get rich.

That alone is IMPEACHABLE! 100000s dead for ego and $$$.

Posted by: Antiwarrior | January 7, 2008 7:31 PM

Anyone who defends Bush/Cheney has got to be out of their minds. The evidence is right in front of your noses; to refuse to see it is exactly what they charge Mr. McGovern with. So sad, but so typical today.

Both parties have, each in their own way, set this country backwards so far it will take generations to recover - if we do.

Posted by: Tim Gallagher | January 7, 2008 7:14 PM

Both the boy idiot george and the hitler cheney are class A war criminals and should be hung just like the Nazi war criminals.

Posted by: Scott S. | January 7, 2008 6:46 PM

As others have noted...

1. Tou did a lousy job as a comments editor, on what came in response to the McGovern piece. What good is an 'assessment' if it doesn't make any real assessment?

2. Those who wrote against McGovern used entirely ad hominem attacks to make their supposed points.

3. Pretty clearly, from what has been submitted in this online commentary. the weight of opinion is FOR impeachment.

4. The entire situation points up the very unprincipled and shameful way that the press has dealt with this issue, the Wash Post not excepted!

5. The American people are MADE silent by a press that does not speak for them.

Posted by: irvthom | January 7, 2008 6:43 PM

Within hours of McGovern's Op-Ed being published,an email alert from the extreme Right-Wing group, "Free Republic", exhorted all of it's members to register on the Post site and vent their spleens against McGovern. This orchestrated campaign of Right-Wing ranting is why there are an unusual number of messages supporting Bush. There aren't many "Freepers", as they are called, but they are very noisy in expressing their hatred for anyone that isn't Rich, White and Republican.

Posted by: John Galt | January 7, 2008 6:36 PM

What I mean is that it doesn't seem like the congress has the stomach for this now, can't a future administration punish these guys and their minions for breaking important laws on the book to prevent future presidents from trying to become ("It's easier to govern as a dictator" GWB) an American despot?

Posted by: Tim | January 7, 2008 6:26 PM

Whats to stop a future presidents justice department from criminal prosecutions against these obvious constitutional lawbreakers. Just curios if anyone has thought about this.

Posted by: Tim | January 7, 2008 6:17 PM

For people who use the terms "liberty" and "freedom" so much, Bush and Cheney don't seem to believe in it for Americans. Impeachment is long past due.

Posted by: Stus | January 7, 2008 6:09 PM

A review of the comments on the McGovern piece late Sunday counted recommendations on posts rather than posts. Recommendations ran 10 to 1 in favor of impeachment.

Its also interesting to note the tone of posts: con posts were almost universally limited to ad hominem attacks on McGovern, while pro posts piled up references to factual material, legal clarifications, etc. in support of McGovern's reasoning.

Final observation: many people posting seemed unaware of when calls for impeachment began taking place.

Posted by: Marcia | January 7, 2008 5:58 PM

I sure hope we don't have another close election. We have too many people in denial about who won. They are also in denial who tell you that Congress didn't authorize war in Iraq, or that we have lost vague Constitutional rights.

Posted by: Sternberg | January 7, 2008 5:50 PM

Why has it taken this long for this to become a discussion? The list of crimes is endless.

Posted by: Gord Metcalfe | January 7, 2008 5:16 PM

It's too bad that you cannot impeach a Presidential Candidate. George McGovern (I'm a 1000% behind Eagleton) should have been. It showed political cowardice.

Flying B-25s shows he has great courage, unfortunately patriotic courage and political cowardace are not linked.

Posted by: Peter Schwartz | January 7, 2008 4:57 PM

A sane and responsible society would impeach Bush, vote for conviction and then he should face treason charges and when convicted of those, executed.

His actions at Tora Bora are alone enough to accomplish this. His refusal to allow US troops to block off bin Laden's escape route are written-in-stone evidence that he didn't want to kill or capture the architect of 9/11. The reason he didn't want to are obvious:had he killed him there the desire for revenge with the public would have lowered to the place where he could not have found the political support for his Iraqi caper.

Posted by: Wolf Vorkian | January 7, 2008 4:47 PM

I have wrote congress people and senators for at least 2 years on a weekly basis asking them to impreach these guys. Isn't strange that the voice of the people are not heard, nor even get a reply back. I am ever more concern about who the nex President will be. If the far right gets in office again. It will be a continuance of Bush's policy. Our country is in a real scary time right now.

Posted by: Rick | January 7, 2008 4:35 PM

As a Republican I'd love to see an impeachment of Bush. Probably the only way we have a shot of winning in 2008!

Posted by: Burgundy | January 7, 2008 4:12 PM

It is believed that the majority of opposing comments against impeachment came specifically from one group. Allegedly the group sent massive emails to their members asking them to refute McGovern's call for impeachment. I do not recall the group's name.

Why McGovern's op-ed got published, but not the op-ed recently submitted by three House Judiciary Committee members: Congressman Robert Wexler, Rep. Luis Gutierrez (D-IL) and Rep. Tammy Baldwin (D-WI) is a mystery to me. They "set out a substantive case for impeachment hearings against the sitting Vice President," but mainstream media refused to publish it. Wexler is quoted saying,

"I was shocked when no newspaper would publish the op-ed I wrote with Rep. Luis Gutierrez (D-IL) and Rep. Tammy Baldwin (D-WI). It is not every day that three members of the House Judiciary Committee set out a substantive case for impeachment hearings against the sitting Vice President."

So despite the media's refusal to publish their op-ed, 182,435 people have signed the petition. Their goal is 250,000:

http://www.wexlerwantshearings.com/

Do note impeachment is a remedy, not a political ploy (or shouldn't be despite the politically-driven impeachment hearings against President Clinton for an erroneous and inconsequential act that was none of the nation's business IMHO).

In contrast [Bush &] Cheney's unprecedented abuse of power acting outside the rule of law, far beyond that of previous veeps [and presidents], potentially could be found guilty of criminal acts. But first to determine if innocent or guilty necessitates impeachment hearings.

When it becomes necessary to remove a president (the Founders understood the value of) "impeachment" as the remedy. "Impeachment" is mentioned 6 times in the Constitution. Neither Bush nor Cheney have upheld the Constitution -- that alone is cause for impeachment.

"... George Mason, a primary author of the Constitution, said that impeachment was the single most important part of the entire document. "Shall any man be above Justice? Above all shall that man be above it who can commit the most extensive injustice?"

I absolutely support Wexler's call for impeachment hearings.

Sign petition here: WexlerWantsHearings.com

http://www.wexlerwantshearings.com/

Calling for hearings is the only way we can stop this abuse of power -- now and in the future. Whether the next President is Obama, Clinton, McCain, Romney or someone else no American President today or in the future ought to have the amount of power Bush & Cheney usurped. It is unprecedented and dangerous. Otherwise holding the executive branch accountable will be next to impossible.

Absent transparency and a check on power are not only unhealthy for an open-society it makes it that much easier to close down an open society.

Our freedom is at stake amongst other things.

Moreover no man is above the law. We are a nation of laws, not men. Hold them accountable.

Sign petition here: WexlerWantsHearings.com

http://www.wexlerwantshearings.com/

Posted by: serena 1313 | January 7, 2008 3:41 PM

I think that people should recall the time when Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney first came to office. The Peace Talks were taking place, the budget was balanced, Europe respected us, the Muslim world was at peace with us, only a handful of crimminal American citizens were being wire tapped and then only legally, gas was at $1.67, waterboarding and torture didn't take up editorial pages, New Orleans was dry and was pleading for Federal money to upgrade the levees, and we were that bright shining city on the hillside.
Since then the lights have gone out.
Alot of damage can take place in a years time. These two need to be impeached just for damage control, the sooner the better.

Posted by: Mike M | January 7, 2008 3:29 PM

Impeach these crooks?
Try these people for treason?
You wish!

Posted by: | January 7, 2008 3:23 PM

Kevin,

Yes, an orderly, bloodless transition to another group of leaders is key to the renewal of our freedoms. It sure is time if only to end this tiresome shouting and arguing between people who would otherwise enjoy the chance to converse.

I hope the issues are discussed with the rational approach you prefer so we can pick between clear choices.

Best wishes (and back to work I go).

Posted by: thuff7 | January 7, 2008 2:47 PM

havoc.

"The UN Charter does NOT grant member states the right to aggressive war as a means of defense against a member state."

You say "aggressive." I say reasonable defense. If we were that aggressive, we wouldn't have skirted the major Iraqi cities when we sent our army to move on against SH. We would have laid them to waste as George McGovern did in Germany.

Posted by: | January 7, 2008 2:40 PM

The only thing saving Bush and Cheney from impeachment is Clinton. Had Clinton not been impeached the Democrats in congress would not be so scared that this will be viewed as a reprisal. the truth remains that Bush and Cheney have much more severely harmed our country than any president that has been impeached. They deserve it and anyone who thinks otherwise needs to read the grounds for impeachment.

Posted by: kjj348 | January 7, 2008 2:34 PM

thuff77,

Thanks again for the comments. Its good to know an opposing viewpoint without the usual rhetoric of late. Even if we are debating a moot point, I feel its a debate worth having.

And you're right. I not proposing that Bush be put on trial for war crimes. Thus there is no need to be proven innocent of casualities related to this conflict.

I just feel the timing of the conflict is exceedingly curious. We were in the final push of a conflict (Afghanistan), that would ,once resoundly successful, have made an Iraq conflict moot (yeah, ya got me, speculative. But think beyond the speculative along this line of thinking.)

What is fact? It took me years to come to believe that impeachment for both President and Vice President was necessary, though not likely.

I'll watch closely the upcoming November elections.

There, I speculate that the american public will render its own version of Impechment.

Posted by: Kevin | January 7, 2008 2:34 PM

it would have been nice to see a numerical breakdown of the commentary--two-to-one for impeachment? six-to-one against? was that too hard?

Posted by: kathleen | January 7, 2008 2:32 PM

It would be nice to think that there is some measure of justice for the likes of Bush and Cheney. While they question others' patriotism and tout their own, they have done more to damage this country than any terrorist ever could have done. They will commit their crimes and walk away from the damage they've caused, and sit back in their plush houses and laugh. When you look at why certain groups want war against certain other groups, why they think global warming is bunk, why they want state rights in one breath and federal power in another, small government on one hand and then grow it, it's all about the flow of cash. You'd think "men" who were "leaders" would aspire to more. But they are only boys with a license to do as they please. Bush and Cheney should be impeached to push this country more towards actually being a democracy. When you look at population growth, food production, pollution, resource control, microbial mutation and evolution, the advancement of cheap, highly effective weapons any terrorist could use, and a host of other growing factors, you see quickly that what the world needs now are people that can lead--truly lead--to unite people on this planet to move fwd productively. Without that, when you view the facts that are coming together like 10 giant snowballs, we're in for some hard times. While people like Bush/Cheney play clever games for cash and psuedo-power, humans are sliding into serious danger on a macro level.

Posted by: kevindreed | January 7, 2008 2:31 PM

The UN Charter does NOT grant member states the right to aggressive war as a means of defense against a member state.

Posted by: cryhavoc | January 7, 2008 2:31 PM

Posted by: kreed | January 7, 2008 2:30 PM

George McGovern used the Greatest Generation argument and noted he was a bomber pilot risking his life for his country. He was good, Bush was bad.

But here are some little discussed facts from WWII and the effects of the bombing runs: We deliberately fire bombed Tokyo targeting civilians. Over 100,000 civilians mostly women and children were incinerated in one night. We targeted civilians with firebombing in virtually every major city in Japan. WE firebombed and incinerated as many as 40,000 civilians in Dresden.

In WWII, we deliberately and viciously targeted civilians. What would you say if Bush did this today? Instead, he has instructed the armed forces to use unprecedented care in avoiding civilian casualties to an extent never before done. Yet you call him a war criminal. You have no historical basis for that.

Finally, the UN charter allows a nation to use whatever means are necessary to defend your nation. Bush was acting in good faith to do so, despite your partisan claims to the contrary.

Posted by: thuff7 | January 7, 2008 2:25 PM

Kevin, all well-said points. More substance than style. Refreshing.

My point regarding the UN speech in Oct 2002 was that other reasons for going to war were given, but those stated reasons are currently ignored in the debate. Bush said that the UN would be a stronger institution if it's resolutions were more effective than "Stop or I shall warn you some more". Effective UN resolutions with real consequences would have been useful in Lebanon, Iran and North Korea, etc.

The other point in the speech is that the people of Iraq were under the thumb of a murderous despot. I believe that anywhere that exists: Kenya, Burma, North Korea, Somalia, Sudan etc. we have a moral obligation to free those people or we ourselves are not free.

Quickly, I don't believe you think that Bush should be tried and then required to prove that he was not responsible for killing 600,000 Iraqis. That runs counter to the notion of innocent until proven guilty. You can't prove a negative. My point is that if a meteor knocked out the entire Saddam Hussein government, there would have been an even greater amount of bloodshed between the same factions, plus the remaining Baathists. Without US troops present, it could easily have exceeded 600k.

Posted by: thuff7 | January 7, 2008 2:10 PM

As far as the McGovern comments go, I was appalled at the highly untrue, vicious, personal attacks on Mr. McGovern by those who opposed Impeachment.

Personal attacks are the hallmark of those who are unable to refute the truth of an proposition.

Posted by: C. Feher | January 7, 2008 2:09 PM

Hi-
Hang 'em high. It may not do much to stop them anymore, but it will discourage others (It is odd that punishment to deter others, a sentiment generally associated with Republicans, doesn't resonate with the many true Republicans who can't stand the war criminal in the White House).

Posted by: doctor t | January 7, 2008 2:08 PM

Sorry, you can't cover Bush's illegal invasion and continuing illegal occupation of Iraq with the preceding decade of UN resolutions, because Bush decided he just couldn't wait for the final resolution needed to make these misadventures "legal."

It will matter when Bush is tried as a war criminal. For the moment, just remember that invading Iraq to try to clear a way out for all that lovely oil was the kind of horrible mistake only a dry drunk could make.

If impeachment just won't happen, you'd better start figuring out what you're going to use instead to fix this mess.

Posted by: fzdybel | January 7, 2008 2:06 PM

Looks like the freepers are trying to hijack this thread too. Pretty soon RoboThinker will be in here cussing out all of us who support impeachment.

It's not about the 2000 election. Only the trolls would throw that out, hoping to deflect attention. It's about what the administration has done since.

The trolls can lie about it all they want but it does not change a thing. 70%+ of the country is against the administration.

Posted by: osmor | January 7, 2008 2:04 PM

PatD: "My own take was something like %80 agreeing with the author"

That only means that 80% of the people who read Post Op Eds by George McGovern and then respond to them on this blog agree. That is not the same as saying 80% of Americans or 80% of registered voters or 80% of any other subgroup in this country agree.

It is skewed by the mere fact that the audience here in this place is more likely to be pro-McGovern that pro-Bush. Why? Philosophical and political Darwinism. You've chased away any opposing viewpoints by the failure to allow them to effectively make their points. They left years ago and haven't come back. Don't believe me? Watch if there is an Outlook rebuttal from a 3rd party not part of the current writing staff or the administration.

Posted by: thuff7 | January 7, 2008 1:58 PM

thuff7:

Thank you for your opposing arguement. Now, if I may, I will go over your points:

I agree that calls for Bill Clinton's impeachment where political. May I counterpoint that the Democratic response against impeachment is ALSO political. Neither case serves the nation nor defends the constitution.

Next point. You're correct. Congress, to its eternal shame, shirked a sacred responsiblility in regard to declaration of War. But there IS ALOT OF circumstantial evidence that states the Bush Administration cherry-picked data to confirm to its assessment. A lie of omition is no less a lie (sorry for the typos..gotta type fast). Such a lie alone is impeachable.

McCovern based his casualty estimates on a John Hopkin's Report. So I believe the burden of proof lies then John Hopkins. Perhaps it would behoove Congress to do a little fact checking themselves. Which would be in form of impeachment (impeachment of course, is charges brought against an elected official. NOT a conviction. There, you get to spell out your evidence..like any other court in the land). But can you truly argue that a vast amount of casualties between 2003 and present in Iraq is NOT the result of the ongoing conflict?

As for the President's plea in his 2002 speech, was it not true that inspectors were permitted back into Iraq, finding nothing. That the Air Force strongly rebuked an assesement that Iqaq had a flying drone for a nuclear delivery device. That an International Nuclear Commission refuted Bush Administion claims that rods where being used for nuclear device purposes.

Against ALL THAT...we still go to war? No nuclear evidence. No link with Al Queada. And most damning: a pull back of an intensive hunt for Bin Laden...to the utter shock of the people on the ground in Afghanistan.

How about water boarding? Warrantless wiretaps? Destruction of evidence? How about holding a US CITIZEN for years without the right to habeous Corpus, or counsel, or anything. Years, thuff7. Defying court orders, anyone?

I submit, thuff7, that YOU try any of those things. And after you do that, please provide me the mailing address of the federal prison you've sent to. I'd like to continue corresponding with you.

One thing you and I do agree on : impeachment will not happen.

That, I believe, is the the nation's great shame.

Again, thank you for your response.

Posted by: Kevin | January 7, 2008 1:52 PM

I want the same protection against any potential crime I may commit that these two have received. Why not just throw away the law books and let Bush and Cheney decide what's best for the country, that what has been happening anyway. Criminals have been in charge of this country since the year 2000, and the citizens have to sit back and watch these two people literally get away with murder. It must be nice to have that much power.

Posted by: Miltownlady | January 7, 2008 1:48 PM

Feaver tries to balance what was unbalanced--the overwhelming sentiment for impeachment. Sadly, McGovern offers too little too late, but its instructive that the Post's writers have been dismissive of this perspective, even though its probably had as much or more popular support than the various neocon schemes that the Post happily publishes on its op-ed pages.

Posted by: Rich | January 7, 2008 1:43 PM

George McGovern is behaving like a silly old man that has nothing wrthwhile to say any more.

Posted by: bogeyman | January 7, 2008 1:22 PM

Why prosecute the past? Because that's where crimes are the very second after they're committed.

I have HAD IT with unreasonable people telling me what reasonable people can supposedly disagree about.

This administration doesn't offend more than 2/3 of Americans because it has been successful and acted legally. They are criminals and liars and they don't care about YOU.

Posted by: Mobedda | January 7, 2008 1:16 PM

Sen McGovern's editorial received an astounding number of comments. In the commentary on the comments, while noting their extreme polarity, Mr. Feaver was remiss in not offering a figure representing the relative mix of pro/con reactions. My own take was something like %80 agreeing with the author.

Also, the con %20 seemed like an awful lot of freeper trolls, fwiw.

Posted by: PatD | January 7, 2008 1:12 PM

'foxlumder' is the one who is out of touch with reality. I did not see him refute a single fact that Sen. George McGovern outlined in his article.
The GOP tried to impeach President Clinton for having an affair.
President Bush created an unjustified international war which has killed thousands, and has directly benefited the shareholders of Halliburton.
The impeachment process was created solely with people such as G.W. Bush in mind.
The silence of the American people is deafening and is what scares me the most. "The Greatest Generation" would have never stood for this travesty. We have become a nation of compliant sheep.
-Baa Baa!!

Posted by: Thomas Paine | January 7, 2008 1:10 PM

There is nothing new in McGovern's call for impeachment that hasn't been repeated ad infinitum in similar columns throughout the Post's opinion sections. To rebut point by point would take more time than I have, but it isn't hard to do.

First, the call for impeachment echos that of Bill Clinton's impeachment, where the opposition, however well intentioned, is merely trying to undo the election. IN this case, 7 years after the fact, McGovern is still arguing against the Supreme Court decision regarding the 2000 election. REgardless of how you like that outcome, it stands as the law. But post facto analysis still concludes that Gore did not win. It is not grounds for impeachment.

McGovern states that the Bush administration went to war without a declaration. Congress did vote to authorize this invasion. Not grounds for impeachment just because you don't like the outcome.

McGovern states the over 600,000 Iraqi citizens were killed because of the war. I doubt this can be confirmed and McGovern believes these deaths are attributable to the president. Prove it.

The other misstatement of facts is that
the President and VP intentionally and with malice lied to the American people to go to war against Iraq. If that is the case, then so did 12 years of United Nations resolutions requiring Iraq to comply with inspections and open access. The president pleaded with Iraq and the UN (see his speech from Oct 2002) to both free the Iraqis from oppression and genocide as well as put strength behind current and future UN resolutions. The WMD not NOT the sole reason for invading Iraq. Again, no lying, no impeachable offenses.

Why do so many McGovernites get so worked up about this, yet offer no viable, implementable alternatives that address all the issues in Iraq? Answer: they can't. So they need to satisfy their anti-Bush lust with dreams of impeachment.

So sorry. It ain't gonna happen. Time to look to the future, not relive the past.

Posted by: thuff7 | January 7, 2008 1:00 PM

From Kid bitzer: "...tell us something of substance, okay?"

--Exactly.

Although my request is for oposing views only. I would truly love to know the "WHY" of those views.

As an example of my reason for asking: I had a recent conversation with a co-worker about presidential candidates. She was definetely against Hillary Clinton. Fine. But when I asked her why, she said it was a "gut feeling". Then I asked her how her "gut" formed it's "feeling" --- she replied, "I don't know. But I follow my gut".

It chills me to the core that a PRESIDENT can be elected based on gastronomical assessments.

Posted by: Kevin | January 7, 2008 12:50 PM

From what I read, the VAST majority of the comments were FOR impeachment. Yet, this article give 3 examples of comments against impeachment and 2 for. Seems like slanted reporting to me.

Posted by: Russell | January 7, 2008 12:32 PM

Dear Doug Feaver, regarding: kid bitzer's post:

Posted by: kid bitzer | January 7, 2008 12:05 PM

Will someone at the Post adress this one - its an important one.

Posted by: steve | January 7, 2008 12:27 PM

I believe that we really need to impeach them both.
YES... porque de facto, nós os Europeus, temos uma visão geral e aprofundada, de toda a política que nos cerca.
Daí o termos a noção da má política levada a efeito, por esse Mundo fora, pelo actual Presidente do V/ País.
Nunca na minha vida de 60 anos, observei um responsável tão tacanho, inculto e irresponsável.
Deus te abençoe América !

Posted by: António Ramos (Coimbra -Portugal) | January 7, 2008 12:20 PM

I believe that we really need to impeach them both.
However most of the reasons given are just smoke screens.
Why not just impeach them for personally directing the murdering of american citizens that may be out of the country.a There
was a famous case in Yemen where the president personally directed
a drone plane to kill aan merican that may have been assoicated with some known alQueda.

Posted by: william Hall | January 7, 2008 12:11 PM

wow. your column is a perfect illustration of the "he said/she said" mind-set that is killing the print media.

you tell us that some of the commenters supported the call for impeachment, and some opposed it.

that's news? some support and some oppose every damn thing. that's to be expected.

the only things you did not tell us were the important things, like:
1) how many of each kind were there? you know, people disagree about the shape of the world, too, but the numbers tilt pretty strongly against the flat-earthers. numbers matter here.

2) more importantly: what were the arguments on both sides? "gee, our readers disagreed with each other!" so what? did their arguments and evidence support mcgovern's call or did they undermine it?

tell us something of substance, okay?

Posted by: kid bitzer | January 7, 2008 12:05 PM

I'd like to hear the arguements of those writing against impeachment. Something other than, "..he's nuts...out of touch...liberal.."

Just the facts, Ma'am/Sir

Posted by: Kevin | January 7, 2008 12:03 PM

The funny thing is that I think Obama is striking a nerve because the left (and I'm part of it) is tired of not only the ridiculous shananagans of the right, but the weak and undermined actions of 'leadership' on the left (Boxer, Reid, Feinstein, Pelosi, Conyers, etc). I predict that many of the incumbents on both sides may be voted OUT as a result of Obama's promise.

Posted by: frenchdel | January 7, 2008 11:42 AM

Does anyone consider the irony that a good chunk of Republicans find McCain and Huckabee too LIBERAL and a chunk of Democrats find Obama too CONSERVATIVE?

Earth to Right and Left Wings -- You have officially become Wing-Nuts.

Posted by: David | January 7, 2008 11:40 AM

I'd wager those screaming loudest AGAINST impeachment for ChenyBush were also the ones screaming loudest FOR Clinton's impeachment.

In other words, their arguements ring hollow.

Posted by: HillRat | January 7, 2008 11:24 AM

Bush and Cheney will never be impeached or brought to trial for they're crimes. Only congress could do that. And congress works for the same bosses that the white house works for. Those bosses are NOT you and I.
This country is now completely controlled by the wealthiest 1%. The other 99% of us have no say whatsoever in how this country is run. The proof is in the amount of tax payer's money congress has sent to the Middle East. No receipts. No accounting. No records. What has your trillion dollars bought you? What will your grandchildren have to give up in order to pay the bill you're leaving them? Sooner or later the American people will realize that this is not a democracy. It's an aristocracy, and you're not citizens. Your peasantry. You can deny this all you want, but you're money is still being sent to the Middle East. Isn't it? Is that what you wanted? Or is it what "someone" else wanted?

Posted by: Awake | January 7, 2008 11:07 AM

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