Hi! Very interesting! pzufifzf

With countless promises made to "bring justice" to criminals international, national and regional, in war and out, does anyone take Bush seriously anymore? His repuation as an honest man is tarred by his many half-truths and lies that fly out of his mouth.

If it were not for this war and his tax cuts for the wealthy, his irrelevancy as a political leader would have been out of the kiln long ago.

Recently I have E_mailed a special vision about victims of 9/11 to the whitehouse about a little waltzing girl
that has told me amazing things about Zakaria moussaoui and his plots. I have sent such sensitive information that I considered as God's Gift to support the
plain truth that so many can't see these
days. To my surprise after exactly 5 days that false prophet ' Usama ben Laden ' just
sent a tape to Al jazeera telling the whole
world that 'Zakaria' is innocent from 9/11
Attacks; a wolf who says exactly the opposite. Simply because the little girl told me that:' He was trained to do harm of another kind ! ' I hope the American Intelligence will decode that puzzle and stop any harm just in time, because time and tide wait for no man.
A man with visions from Morocco

Naive Americans?

And to Sully's comments, why do Americans feel that it is okay and noteworthy for citizens in non-aligned countries to speak out against, orto overthrow their leaders, when to even express a difference of opinion with leaders in our own country, to some Americans, exemplifies hatred and is tantamount to treason?

Certainly if I expressed to you my conclusion about celebrated leaders in this country who some admire, that I see as having been nothing more than pimps, some of you would be noticably angry. But isn't it true that the first president, George (#1) Washington, Thomas Jefferson and ten's of thousands of America's elites PIMPED human beings in order to enjoy their lavish lifestyles.

If you don't believe it drive out to Mt. Vernon and Monticello and ask yourself what kind of human beings would rely on other human beings to provide their subsistence and lavish lifestyles, but Pimps? I know that some of you would be surprised to hear a minister say that, but I wonder how judged such uncalled for behavior. Perhaps Jefferson knew then, ala, that God's justice would not sleep forever (-:

Bobby, I did not believe years ago that any American over the age of 19 would have been naive enough to follow the Rev. Jim Jones types to Guyana. Living in the Bay area, I told my friends that I believe that most of the people who were killed will be either elderly or younsters, man was I wrong.

I was stunned to witness the ages of the victims that were shown on nightly news television programs who were in their twenties and thirties, and killed and forced to commit mass suicide in Guyana.
In fact I was flabbergasted.

Just read Sully's comments below yours and you will see what is wrong with so many Americans. Americans have been conditioned from birth that America is and represents all that is good. To say anything else, given our conditioning, would unpatriotic.

Some who know better would not acknowledge the truth anyway, the truth is that we are not a perfect country by any stretch. Not only have we departed from God's laws, too many Americans have departed from ethics, morality and reason.

Is the rest of the world perfect, no, but we are not either. If we ever want to improve this country and to make it into what it could be, it will require a real gut wrenching/gut check and systemic changes.

Will that happen soon? I don't believe that it will given the current power elites or Americans who have their eyes on the American prize, power and wealth. For too many of them like things just the way they are, i.e., the USA on top, the rest of the planet living in awe and fear of the USA, and the potential to garner wealth.

Sadly, as many are coming to recently admit that it is not the rest of the world that has something to fear, some are seeing that Americans have had something to fear themselves! For in the past it was easier to submit to intellectual laziness than to go through the arduous task of reasoning.

The bible says that if any man (it did not say Christians), lack wisdom, let him ask of God. Some folks really need to seek God and ask what has been and is really going on in America with respect to its leaders and its policies. ANY COUNTRY THAT CAN LAUNCH A PREEMPTIVE STRIKE AGAINST ANOTHER country, murder, pillage and maim, and then has the audacity to go the same United Nations that it ignored and ask that another country (Iran) be sanctioned for doing the same thing that it did, ignoring the United Nations is truly out of control! And sadly, most Americans don't see that there is anything wrong with that. And who has the most nuclear warheads and weapons delivery systems?

Let me give you a hint as to what is wrong with America: The Love of Money (which is why most europeans came here in the first place)is The Root of All Evil! Second, pride goes before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall. America and Americans love money. America and Americans are proud and quite haughty!
Just thought I would that.

The danger of being around naive people is that you have to suffer the consequences of their decisions and choices right along with them!

Peace & Grace,

I cannot believe any American over forty years of age could possibly be naive enough to believe,(given the experiences America has had with J Edgar Hoover, BATF, Watergate, etc,)that there is no inherent danger in government, whatever department, secretly amassing databases of personal information on citizens. The probability of abuse is a given, no matter what excuse is used, and the existence of the database is an assault on our inherent constitutional right to privacy. The NSA has grossly over-achieved, and the Bush-Cheney administration knows it.

FH wrote:
"To Dems: It's really kind of pathetic when I look at the majority of your comments. The level of hatred and paronoid I see is kind of manic. Go out and take a bike-ride or a walk for heavens sake."

Funny, I was saying the same thing to Reps when they wanted Clinton's hide for lying in a deposition. Now which is more worthy of paranoia, a president lying in a deposition or a president taking away your liberty, lying about evidence to start a war, running up the largest debt in America's history, ignoring the cries from a city destroyed by a hurricane, and making pals with the leader of a country that committed mass murder of American citizens (Libya for those who do not follow the news)?

FH wrote:
"Sometimes when you're in charge you have to make tough decisions that are not popular. Now I am in no way comparing Bush to Lincoln, but I do think the man is taking a little too much heat in his bid to protect us. I think it's a little early to be worried the Gestapo is going to be banging down your door."

Tell that to Joe Wilson and Valerie Plame.

What we have is a severe problem of corruption, power, and greed by our elected officials in Washington, which has been allowed to fester and grow even further by a lack of oversight on the part of the electorate. Many of our elected officials represent themselves first and Corporate Sponsors second. At the bottom of the heap is the voters...who only get attention during election years and only then...when an incumbent's postion is in jeopardy.

We truly need a voters' revolution!!! We need the voters to demand Term Limits of our elected officials to stop the proliferation of power and greed by our professional politicians. We need to demand that our elected officials represent those who put them in office in the first place. We need to ensure that our elected officials have varied backgrounds in education, business, and public service...we have way too many lawyers serving in Congress! Before a politician's name is placed on a ballot they should be required to pass a rigid test on our Constitution, The Bill of Rights and our Nation's History. Such a test should be as rigid as any Bar Exam or Professional License!

I have heard many disingenuous arguments that this is harmless.

(1) Your phone number is already available on Google.
- your call records are not
(2) Similar data is already widely used by commercial firms
- commercial firms do not have the power of the government.
(3) This is a narrowly scoped anti-terrorist program. We aren't interested in you.
- Mr. Arkin disposes of this one pretty well.

No government of people that enjoy inalienable liberties should have the power to conduct this sort of surveillance on its own citizens.

Mr. Arkin,

Your article, and most of the comments we heard on the subject, lead us to think that our privacy is threatened one way or the other. I totally agree with this.

But first I have to step back to find a reasonable explanation to all of this.

How can anybody in his/her right mind can use millions of records to find something connected with a potential terrorist attack?

This does not make any sense except if one knows what is a statistical communication pattern of a terrorist attack. Let's define a communication pattern as the lenght of time and the frequency of the calls from one number to an other. The location is irrelevant as terrorists can be anywhere.

This pattern is impossible to define with a huge list of phone calls as terrorist would certainly use various media. Even if it was possible, first you have to know the terrorist, which would make the collection of all other data a huge waste of time, and second you would have to find a communication pattern between the two terrorists and then to apply this pattern to the millions of records, which does not seem reasonable. The communication pattern of my mother and my sister would certainly be associated with terrorist plot, as well as millions of american families who have a crisis once every other month at least. Then, of course if you know the terrorist it does not make any sense to track the phone calls of everybody else.

So the real question is why do they collect all this information if it is not for tracking terrorist down? Either they are stupid to believe it's achievable, which is absolutely possible, or they want to do something else with the data, which then would create a major privacy issue as it would have nothing to do with terrorist.

So, which one is which one? Personally, knowing what this adminstration secretly achieve after 6 years, the second choice is the right one.

By the way, playing with data to create meaningful statistics is called data mining.

NLN

let holy lepers lie on geowbuches couches, so that they may be made clean again after his cloven hoofed presence has mad e the world foul...

.

and throw him down...............

I'm so sick of the national security justification for wholesale violations of the Bill of Rights.

Right-wing sheep are cowards, running scared from Osama and willing to give up the very rights that distinguish them as Americans for an empty promise of safety. Yellow, all of them!

Freedom entails risk. America is the land of the free AND THE HOME OF THE BRAVE.

NASCAR Dad needs to grow a pair.

dear wrong...kiss em quick buttboy.

in uranus...which is where you tlak from...

Emds libersals rights, letfs

yyour a fool, you don't know whatis in your hands is't your prickasessholse

To Dems: It's really kind of pathetic when I look at the majority of your comments. The level of hatred and paronoid I see is kind of manic. Go out and take a bike-ride or a walk for heavens sake. After all, even if we go crazy and kill each other off, at least the Snowy Owl will be able to reestablish its habitat!!! So that's kind of cool.

Hitler would have loved this technology. Gives "authorities" power over all and everybody. I thought the authorities worked for us, not against us. Let's see, first we have a war (a BIG money maker eh Halliburton, Motorola,.. and Exon) for WMD's and now to protect us even further we have this.
Lucky us! We're watching the destruction of America boys and girls. And YOU were there!

George Orwell was only a little bit ahead of his time!

I spelled daehtihs backwards wrong...

oh dear.

face of a real danger on _occaision_

not as a way of being

and who sold you homophobia as a "family value?"

answer: eog w hsub...... daeh tiht gnikcuf uoy

a cow on the roof of a cotton house...

heh...

Posted by: let his lands be

occupied by the "aides ridden" of Afree-ca, so that the stench of his unholiness is removed from beneath waters of his Crawford ranch...

let holy lepers lie on his couches, so that they may be made clean again after his cloven hoofed presence has mad e the world foul...

.

and throw him down...............

Posted by: I personally think... |

that geo...witless bush...

is a criminal,

and needs to be supported in that mannre...

I also believe that he should be impounded and have his lands sold, as well as those of his fathers and those who have worked with him to perpatrate this fraud upon the people of the United States of America

I think, he should, at the very least have to suffer that fate which he has tried to foist upon us...

stamp his resume with the word "loser"

take his properties, his reputation, give his job to foreigners and let him compete as he would have you compete

and that his lands be sold to foreigners as he has sold your land and used your children to _his_ benefit...

after he has wiped his dic on your reputation...verily so...

that _you_ are now associated with _his_ reputation...and

are rendered unclean...

heh!

and let hte unclean be washed in the blood of a lbam

.

let me hear an AMEN!!!!!!!!!!

Recommended reading for all of you who are interested in this subject: David Brin - The Transparent Society. Excerpts can be found here: http://www.davidbrin.com/privacyarticles.html

This award winning and prescient book is available on Amazon.com as well.

To Sully: When the war began, Lincoln decreed by executive order that all people who discouraged enlistment in the army or otherwise engaged in disloyal practices would be subject to martial law. This presidential action suspended the writ of habeas corpus (which prevents the government from holding citizens without trial). Between fifteen thousand and twenty thousand citizens, mostly from the border states, were arrested on suspicion of disloyal acts...AND this is the person most of you regard as OUR greatest President.

Sometimes when you're in charge you have to make tough decisions that are not popular. Now I am in no way comparing Bush to Lincoln, but I do think the man is taking a little too much heat in his bid to protect us. I think it's a little early to be worried the Gestapo is going to be banging down your door.

Sully,

Right again; the threat of a nuclear showdown was real in the 60s and yet Americans didn't seem to be quaking in their boots. I'd guess it's because there was lots less media coverage (3 channels, ending at 1 or 2 in the morning, news three times a day for a half hour at shot).

It was also a generation that had lived through World War 2 so they had a good grasp of violence and put the threat in perspective.

Don't forget that Hayden was a _Clinton_ Appointee to NSA in 1999. Not exactly a Bush partisan credential.

You can buy all this information from ChoicePoint.

They have two databases, one obtained from financial dealings which is subject to privacy regulations and another database that is not. They sell the data out of the second database to anyone with $$$.

The Vice President of ChoicePoint who handled voter roll scrubbing felony lists for the State of Florida in the 2000 Presidential election committed suicide. Has nothing to do with this discussion, but I thought that was odd.

ChoicePoint hopes to one day have data concurrency on the order to two seconds. That means within two seconds of a transaction, the database is updated.

We are concentration our attention on Government action when business is essentially peering into our living rooms without regulation. Shouldn't we have the right to privacy from business just like we have from government.

A final curious note, when I recently moved, somewhere alone the way their informatiom collection methods failed and when a friend tried to look me up, they had my age twenty years younger.

If only it where true, and I am sure someone out there would pay money for that service.

Big Brother Irony:
A good friend is of Lebanese descent with Lebanese last name. He was born in the US to a father who was a career Air Force NCO. Both father and son are staunch Republicans ...they still love W even after all this time.
Because the son has an Arab name and is a certified jet engine mechanic who's worked for airlines and the father has telephoned Lebanon, would not the automatic computer datamining & analysis spit him out as "of interest" ?

D.A's

there are 12 to 20 MILLION _illegal_

effing aliens in this country....

any one of them could have been a friggin terrorist...

YOU ARE NOT BEING PROTECTED FROM ANYTHING

THAT IS THE FRIGGIN TRUTH....

_that_

is what the 9/11 Commisions reveiw of this administrations actions after

the 9/11 false flag incident

a friggin curred....

.

"OKAY FOR TODAY"

like the pedophile touching a little girls knee....

" I wasn't going therrrr...." "I was just checking..."

Liberty is _down_ he tripped her,

bush is saying, "look she's pulling a train, and I's selling tickets....want some?"

it's a gang rape....you're president is the one that punched her out...

.

So many comments on something for which there are so few available facts. We are quick to imagine abuses and convict the security services of same (some of us seem to be working overtime to find and take offense). Would that we were equally quick to imagine that these same security services were somehow responsible for the fact that no attacks have occurred on US soil since 9/11. I know. I know. The truth is somewhere in between.

keep this lying cheating stealing corrupt administration out of my data!
the government has NO need to know who I'm calling unless the government suspects me of wrongdoing. what they're doing makes everyone in the USA with a telephone a SUSPECT. when will everyone realize that the Bush administration continues to use FEAR as a motivator with the public relinquishing more & more liberties & freedoms. it's got to stop.

Sully wrote: "He said that right and wrong is defined by the moment and maybe holding people, even Americans without due process, is right for today."

Thanks for sharing this, even though it frightens me more than the nice elderly lady I met who wanted televised torture sessions of captured terrorists shortly after the attacks. "Okay for today" is the core argument of not just the Bush "Trust Me" nonsense but every other organization (public/private/large/small) that has convinced good people that a little evil today somehow doesn't matter if you eventually stop.

Bush would have us believe a number of lies, including that there will one day a time when the US is 100% safe from terrorist threats. Therefore, if we'll just bear with him "today" we will be rewarded with perfect safety on some distant "tomorrow."

Shudder.

After 9/11, there was a rise in anti-Arab and anti-Muslim sentiment within the US. I wonder if the new NSA datamining program will induce more of these sentiments. How many people will wonder whether the Arab/Muslim friend that they are calling or receiving calls are ultimately part of a chain that leads to a terror suspect even if the friend has no knowledge of the person at the end of the chain?

It may be the case that some people will be reluctant to call or take calls from Arabs or Muslims because they fear that such calls will suggest that such people could become terror suspects because of their associations with Arab people. This could be exacerbated if the non-Arab/non-Muslim person works in a nuclear power plant, airport or other potential terror target. Such a person might think, "If I work in a nuclear power plant and I talk to Arab people, maybe the NSA will think that I'm involved in a terror plot to blow up the plant I work in." Do we really want people to be thinking that way.

Finally, the "innocent people have nothing to hide" argument is erroneous. People still like privacy even when they're doing nothing wrong. That's why houses are opaque, windows have shades and people close the bathroom door when they go.

Why is it so difficult to trust this administration? Perhaps because the party line shifts a bit every day, dependent upon what morality lapses are made public in the morning papers.

Where are the Republicans who fear an obtrusive government? Please speak loudly, since as our liberty´s errode... so does the future of our State.

Dr.Q wrote:
"With the proper controls, phone records is a very good tool to combat terrorism.
I have not lost any liberty. I use my phone on daily basis and no right has been taken away. I dont fear this, because I dont make or receive phone calls from terrorist or bank robbers."

Quite true if you have proper controls. What are those controls? Can Karl Rove call up his buddy Hayden and ask him to analyse the phone records of, say, Patrick Kennedy to see what he was really doing the night he drove his car into the Capitol barricades? Would that be a proper use of this technology? What are the proper controls that would prevent the use of this power except for real security matters? Right now there is none except Bush's assurances.

Its not the eavesdropping and phone record fishing that is the problem, its the lack of oversight that is the problem and Bush's insistence that there be no oversight that is down right scary. You say you have nothing to hide so you don't have a problem with the survellience. Why does the president act as though he DOES have something to hide by not agreeing to oversight of these programs? Oversight would make this issue go away. Lack of oversight allows political hacks to abuse this system. Ask yourself how you would feel if a President Ted Kennedy or President Hillary Clinton had this power without oversight.

Dear Mr. Arkin,

What is your opinion about my latest post?.

Thank you in advance.

Yours truly,
Che

BREAKING NEWS!!!!!!!!!!

http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2006/05/federal_source_.html

Federal Source to ABC News: We Know Who You're Calling

May 15, 2006 10:33 AM

Brian Ross and Richard Esposito Report:

A senior federal law enforcement official tells ABC News the government is tracking the phone numbers we (Brian Ross and Richard Esposito) call in an effort to root out confidential sources.

"It's time for you to get some new cell phones, quick," the source told us in an in-person conversation.

ABC News does not know how the government determined who we are calling, or whether our phone records were provided to the government as part of the recently-disclosed NSA collection of domestic phone calls.

Other sources have told us that phone calls and contacts by reporters for ABC News, along with the New York Times and the Washington Post, are being examined as part of a widespread CIA leak investigation.

One former official was asked to sign a document stating he was not a confidential source for New York Times reporter James Risen.

Our reports on the CIA's secret prisons in Romania and Poland were known to have upset CIA officials. The CIA asked for an FBI investigation of leaks of classified information following those reports.

People questioned by the FBI about leaks of intelligence information say the CIA was also disturbed by ABC News reports that revealed the use of CIA predator missiles inside Pakistan.

Under Bush Administration guidelines, it is not considered illegal for the government to keep track of numbers dialed by phone customers.

The official who warned ABC News said there was no indication our phones were being tapped so the content of the conversation could be recorded.

A pattern of phone calls from a reporter, however, could provide valuable clues for leak investigators.

Lets think of the situation we got in our hands. Me for example if my celular phone service provider does not keep a record of my calls and I need to corroborate certain phone calls I made, they will have some problems with me if they dont have a record.
In the other hand, a terrorist is aprehended, a cellular phone is confiscated. Other contacts of the individual in question can come to light and other operations to aprehend them will be on the way.
Thats how this should work.
With the proper controls, phone records is a very good tool to combat terrorism.
I have not lost any liberty. I use my phone on daily basis and no right has been taken away. I dont fear this, because I dont make or receive phone calls from terrorist or bank robbers.

How long will it be before they're using the database to find people who call out-of-state abortion providers from states that prohibit abortion? It's the ultimate nanny state the conservatives have always dreamed of.

What would Barry Goldwater say?

OK, so many Pubbies keep saying that we need to sacrifice freedoms for safety?

Can anyone tell me precisely when this program began (1997/1998?) and why this program began before we supposedly had such 9-11 safety concerns?

It is very hard for me to imagine Clinton's NSA coming out of the blue and Telecoms cooperating on this kind of treasonous project prior to 9/11 and this issue cannot be put second to discussing the project details themselves.

3 things warrant focus:
1) Why was it begun in '97/98?
2) What was begun then and how has it changed since 9/11, it at all? and
3) Why has no one felt it worthy of informing FISA and going before FISA to obtain the Congressionally-mandated
warrant(s)?

Now, the Bush Admin. has put forth their proposition that in these 8 years since the project supposedly began, no one has had the time to petition FISA for the requisite post-hoc approval of this warrantless surveillance. This is obviously disingenuous and probably eliminates the possibility that they can argue anything effectively now before FISA.

P.J., this has little to do with "SECURITY", except for security for the oligarhy headed up by the Bush crowd. Once these records are assembled, and every indication is that the telephone records are nothing, corporations and governmnet will have a tool to use for hiring pliable employees, giving insurance only to those with a low risk factor, etc. It improves profits for corporations and provides inside information for politician's wishing to hang onto the privilege and power of their office...and you can just forget all about patriotism and all of the rest.

Sit back and watch what happens when the Democrats take control of the Senate and, likely, the Congress, in November. There will be a bunch of hearings that will accomplish nothing. Then, two years down the road, a Democrat, any Democrat, will be elected President, and they will have handy all of these tools, all of this information, and we will continue on down the path to a tyranny.

Don't expect the Democrats to try and imprison Bush and Rove and their crowd for their crimes, don't expect them to end H1-B and L1 visa's or illegal immigration, or anything actually meaningful for this country or it's people. Instead, they will get the same crowd of soccer mom's all riled about gun control or some equally meaningless issue.

With the new seamless surveillance culture, Americans are right to be concerned.

Surveillance via communications, cameras installed on every street light to thwart those who intentionally drive faster than the posted speed limit, airline regulations, governmental policies, international treaty policies, etc., all reflect American responses to safety at home during unprecedented threats of terrorism.

The newly installed means to a "safer" way of life being grafted into American society and other concerned societies around the world, are exactly the same means societies in countries with other forms of government use to monitor their respective citizens.

Why do we have these similarities that are called by different names?

This is a "fishing expedtion", without "probable cause", and involves "racial profiling". If they really caught someone, the case would be thrown out of court. These people are incompetent. They can't secure our borders or ports, and govern by spin.

The measure of ones IQ is the ability to see and reference patterns.
The way I see it; we are becoming a nation awash in ignorance. The patterns are so obviouse that a child could see them.

Recognize the patterns.... or get off the line....

The problem, as I see it, is that the Democrats are no better than the Republican's. Of course, the Demo's hate Bush and (good for all of us!) they will impeach the SOB. The problem, then, is that we will have all of that infrastructure for spying on American citizens in place and I would bet my paycheck that they use it. Trading Hitler for Stalin doesn't sound all that good a deal to me.

"Patterning your life around other's opinions is nothing more than slavery."
Lawana Blackwell

The patterns of today become the reality of tommorrow.

FH wrote:
"To Sully: If you don't think our govt trampled on people's civil liberties in WWII, you frankly don't know much about history. (See Japanese internment camps) Also, I think if you went back and studied our history...you would see many other instances in our history where we trampled on civil liberties in favor of our security."

Quite true. However we came to regret those violations of civil liberties and I have seen nothing to show the violations protected us in any way. We have obviously not learned from them.

I see America changing. I was vacationing in Yellowstone two years ago and I was talking with a man who was from New Jersey. The subject turned to 911 and the holding of "terrorists" at Gitmo and specifically the case of the American arrested on American soil and held in military confinement with no due process. I told him the government needed to be carefully watched since we could begin loosing our civil liberties. He responded by saying that in WW2 we locked up the Japanese Americans and today we think that was wrong, but at the time we thought it was right ... maybe in the future we will find what we are doing now to be wrong, but for now it is right. A little confused I asked him what he meant, was it right or wrong. He said that right and wrong is defined by the moment and maybe holding people, even Americans without due process, is right for today. I reminded him that we had a constitution to make sure we did not apply civil liberties as we please or toss them when they became a problem. He responded that if we need to toss them to be safe, so be it.

I still remember his expression. He was not saying this was a necessary evil. He was happy to see civil liberties tossed to make him and his family safer. He was not some young neo-con. He was a Korean war vetern about 70 years old. It scared me to see a fellow American talk about something so unAmerican but helps me understand the support Bush gets when he threatens our freedoms. There are some pretty scared people out there.

"A consistent thinker is a thoughtless person, because he conforms to a pattern; he repeats phrases and thinks in a groove."
Jiddu Krishnamurti

"Patterning your life around other's opinions is nothing more than slavery."
Lawana Blackwell

The problem with 43 and his administration is simply that he/they cannot be trusted anymore! Knowing this, they simply classify everything, threatening anyone who leaks the lies with prosecution, fines, and imprisonment. They also know that people who speak out have to retain a lawyer to defend themselves, and will probably end up in bankruptcy.

A reply to Neo, though undeserved:

Again, folks, we're missing the Administration's weak point on this:

WHY NOT APPLY TO FISA FOR POST-HOC WARRANTS?

I have called and suggested to White House Aides this very surprising concept, as proposed by the FISA Act. They sounded so appreciative and excited about the idea, until they checked upstairs to find out that that is exactly what the Administration is avoiding. Why doesn't FISA summon (Subpoena) these records?

Can we, as citizens, go before FISA, which clearly has jurisdiction, and start a class action to subpoena the records from both the phone cos. and the Admin.?

They will always be able to argue that they don't have time to apply for all these warrants, but they can probably apply for a blanket warrant for the program (except they know it will be denied). We can go through a Congressional investigation to really find out what has been done, but the quickest way to stop it now is to bring the issue before FISA as a citizens' action ASAP? Is it not?

This is going to be a problem we will have to deal with for quite a while.

I mean that in the field of information technology there are a lot of possibilities as to things we could do, that might yield potentially important information. But the operative words in the preceding sentence are "could" and "might." There is no guarantee that some of the things we could do WILL yield information serving the purpose for which we want to do them. Neither is there any assurance that the information they do yield will not be useful for some other purpose people now in government do not intend.

One needn't believe in the malevolence of the current administration, of civil servants or military personnel, to recognize that this is a difficult area. My guess is that most of the people actually designing software for data mining and like activities are motivated primarily by the idea that here is a really interesting field of knowledge. They're not wrong. It's also true that some of the things we might be worried about the government doing are already being done by private companies -- credit card companies for example -- and represent very significant cessions of the privacy we are worried about the government violating.

But the government will always have the potential to commit greater abuses than any private company. So any authorization of information gathering things that we could do, in the absence of a clear understanding of why we should do them, is a cause for concern now and will be for many years to come.

If Bush and his Nazi Gang are not impeached and removed from office and power then I have it on good authority that a Not so Civil Revelution will be taking place aqnd the Bush Nazi Gang and anyone and everyone who supports and or aids them will be the loosers.
No prisoners are to be taken.
Americans for Justice will prevail.

To Sully: If you don't think our govt trampled on people's civil liberties in WWII, you frankly don't know much about history. (See Japanese internment camps) Also, I think if you went back and studied our history...you would see many other instances in our history where we trampled on civil liberties in favor of our security. The question of beefing up surveillance etc. during a time of war should be a non-issue...of course you do. The question is...where do you draw the line, and I think there needs to be a strenuous debate about that.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain how the heck tracking my phone calls will help protect me from the allegedly ubiquitous bad guys. I imagine I will go on waiting because:
1. The people behind this program (cough-Hayden!-cough!) will not tell me for my own good.
2. The sad truth is such programs can't work unless they are tested and the only way they can be tested is by ANOTHER, similar terrorist attack. I would be surprised if any PR department can find the proper spin for "We'll know if it works if you die."
Right now, if the NSA is doing any thing with this data, I assume they are comparing it to KNOWN patterns of phone use before the Sept. 11th attacks. So what? If they see a similar pattern now, what can they do? Nuthin. There is no way to say what 10 calls from A to B and 20 calls from B to C might mean. Could be planning a party, could be planning to kill a lot of people. So they could either go rushing around whenever there is a similar pattern of calls and risk crashing a wedding or they can wait. How many large scale attacks will it take before they know their program works? My guess would be too many.
Also, note this MIGHT only help (eventually) if you have a wide-spread network of people. What about the small, locally based group of nut-jobs planning mayhem? (Am I the ONLY person who remembers Timothy McVeigh & his pals?)
3. They can't tell me because THEY don't know. I suspect that right NOW it is not so much a case of "Hey, let's keep tabs on every person in our borders," but "Hey, we have these powerful computers, let's see what we can do with them!" I cannot imagine they can do anything useful with so much data. Sure the computers will turn up all sorts of luverly patterns and probably create luverly charts and pie graphs and what not. But will it ever MEAN anything? Nope. All the NSA will accomplish, aside from trampling our 4th Am. rights and making itself look even creepier than it is, is acquire a lot of data. Data will not make anyone in this country one iota safer than they would be if Hayden just set fire to the money wasted on this program.

It Has Started!!!

This Administration is now monitoring phone records of newspaper correspondents. See:

blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2006/05/federal_source_.html

Did'nt expect it so soon! Next comes the phone record surveillance of Congressmen and Senators (from both sides). How else does one keep the Republicans in line and only the Democrats from getting too loud??

Time to only shop small companies and use cash only. I just switched from one of the big phone companies to a small local company who has promised in writing not to give my personal info or records to anyone without a court order or warrant

Have any of the Democrats said they would stop this if elected President? Why not?

"I HATE HIM", President Bush?

I hate him are the words of King Jehoshaphat, late King of Judah, who was referring to God's servant, Micaiah the son of Imlay. And why did the King hate him? 2 Chronicles 18:7, Jehoshaphat said, "But I hate him; for HE NEVER PROPHESIED GOOD UNTO ME". It is too bad that King Jehoshaphat did not listen to this one man of God, instead of the 400 prophets that told him what he wanted to hear. In the end, he not only got himself killed (Bush politically) but a whole lot of other people were needlessly killed (Remember Iraq) as well!

King Jehoshaphat, like too many individuals in politics, preferred being surrounded by people who agreed with him and supported his unrealistic positions. Remember that saying, " a man surrounded by yes men will never accept no for an answer"! Does this current Administration and his supporters hate Micaiah? Micaiah in this case appears to be anyone who has a difference of opinion than this current Administration.

One of the other real sad commentaries about this country, the United States of America, is that some Americans cannot express their opinions without being told that they, "hate the President". Our country is so polarized right now as a result of these kind of characterizations. Perhaps we should all just take Britney Spears' advice and just go along with whatever the President and his Administration has to say, how many Iranians would be dead or wounded now? Ours is supposed to be a government of the people!

Truthfully, if the President would have listened to the dissenting voices in this country, to its Allies, to the United Nations and the United Nations Security Council three years ago, approximately 100,000 human beings, would neither be dead nor wounded or homeless! Remember the scripture that says that God hates a liar? In that same vein, I have never met Mr. Bush, I do not know the man, yet, I hate his policies and some of the things that he does. By the way, are the monitoring e-mails yet?

The other problem that we currently have in America, thanks mostly to the Republican Party, is that one cannot express an opinion without being labeled and dispatched to the Liberal camp. What is wrong with that characterization? The Liberal camp has an obvious negative connotation to it, a sure-fire strategy by the Republicans. Once you are labeled a Liberal you are dispatched, like on the Survivor TV show, to Exile Island Purgatory, where you are isolated from the rest of the group. There you are neither seen nor heard from and you will not enjoy the spoils or rewards.

Once you are dispatched to the Liberal Exile Camp in America, you are disparaged and nothing that you say matters any longer to too many of the American people, that is unless you can find a way to get out of Purgatory! And the price to escape is way too high from my point of view; today Jesus would be considered a Liberal and that suites me fine.

Why are Americans tolerating this nonsense? Are Americans so limited in their thinking that Americans allow their minds to be shut down simply because another person has had the "L" label placed upon his or her chest? Do you recall in our history that we used labels to demonize our external enemies. Once most Americans heard words like Nazi, Communist, Jihadist, Strongman, Dictator and now Terrorist..., the mind would simply shut down. I cannot believe how intellectually lazy Americans can be. By the way, is covert operation a euphemism for terrorism? I wonder what other countries might think!

I lam a registered Independent and proud to be one. I listen to all sides, with respect to all arguments, and I find agreement with politicians, statesmen and radio talk show hostsn and blogges on each side. I find truth in every place. At the same time I hear and see things that I do not believe in. However, if I say that I do not agree with certain opinions, I am accused of hating the one who expressed his opinion. Those who support Mr. Bush and believe that anyone who holds an opinion that differs from his, is accused of simply "hating him," in a similar fashion to King Jehoshaphat who actually admitted that he hated Micaiah.

I hope that Mr. Bush is not like that himself! He seemed to imply the same when he uttered those now infamous words at a constituent's affair, "you are my base". A President may be elected by one group, but once he and soon she,takes the Oath of Office, he or she, should become the President for and of all of the People and he or she should be willing to listen to ALL OF THE PEOPLE, not just their base!! Finally, a President along with the Vice President should not refer to American citizens who hold a difference of opinion from there's as, "major league a-holes". That tells you a lot about what they think those with a difference of opinion.

There is another side to every coin, please let us hear from the Micaiah's of today!

In answer to the question "has anyone checked to see if the government has collected information on credit card purchases?", the unfortunate answer is "Yes". They have been doing this since the beginning of the Bush Administration. They are also collecting law enforcement, banking records and certain health and insurance records. My understanding is that, in the two years I have been "out", they have expended these programs dramatically. Much of this, it must be said, has been a part of a program for assembling a national identification "card" and database under a contract with a large private company. The problem is that this information is held in private databases, some of it actually in India, and HAS been used for private purposes such as denial of life insurance coverage and for political purposes (dirt). This entire program has been rife with abuse since it's inception and it is going to get a lot worse no matter what the Amercian public thinks since every bit of it originated under executive order from the Whtehouse.

In answer to the question "has anyone checked to see if the government has collected information on credit card purchases?", the unfortunate answer is "Yes". They have been doing this for over a year. They are also collecting law enforcement, banking records and certain health and insurance records. My understanding is that, in the two years I have been "out", they have expended these programs dramatically. Much of this, it must be said, has been a part of a program for assembling a national identification "card" and database under a contract with a large private company. The problem is that this information is held in private drtabases, some of it actually in India, and HAS been used for private purposes such as denial of life insurance coverage and for political purposes (dirt). This entire program has been rife with abuse since it's inception and it is going to get a lot worse no matter what the Amercian public thinks since every bit of it originated under executive order from the Whtehouse.

Some interesting things to think about in these times: aside from all the talk of "_____ surveillance", and so forth; placing 5,000+ National Guard troops on the border with Mexico? Has anyone postulated that this may be the beginning of the end of the democratic process and maybe the end of the U.S.? Just how much more would it take to cancel elections (just temporarily...just until we can guarantee the public's safety)? Remember the blurb about the Selective Service two or so years ago? It's the stories that aren't repeated are the important ones.

To che: Keep your liberal freak-show off the blog. If you have something to say about the topic, please do. But stop the propaganda!!! As for the topic...it's a scary world out there, especially with nukes and dirty bombs and any number of chemical and biological weapons out there to be used. I don't know what the limits Americans are willing to endure on civil liberties are, but I know if any of these weapons are used on the populace...the limits will be lowered significantly. A line needs to be drawn, though, because we are certainly starting to get into some scary territory.

Arkin: The government's position is that if you are "innocent," you have nothing to hide. It is a new version of 'you are either with us or against us.'

You're seeing that argument aped in letters pages across America. It's time for people to reply, noting that if those people truly have nothing to hide, you'll pay for them to take out a full-page advertisement detailing their recent phone calls and emails.

In a sense, the Bill of Rights was instituted to protect the people from themselves. The founders knew that day-to-day politics had the capacity to distract the populace from their basic rights and freedoms.

The blind hatred for the press reflected in certain blog comments, in response to articles holding the government responsible for upholding the law, indicate a very dangerous state of the nation. Is is a condition that propels itself towards Civil War II.

So has anyone in the press asked the credit card companies if the Bush administration has obtained the credit card records of millions of Americans?

Seems like the obvious thing would be to start asking a variety of industries if the goverment has been obtaining records en masse. Bank records, credit card records, internet records???

So has anyone in the press asked the credit card companies of the Bush administration has obtained the credit card records of millions of Americans?

Seems like the obvious thing would be to start asking a variety of industries if the goverment has been obtaining records en masse. Bank records, credit card records, internet records???

Anybody know what the Bushies define the word "innocent" to mean?

I recall a rather tortured definition of sexual relations once by a president, so...

Rick wrote:
"OK, Mr. Arkin, I'm going to be regularly refreshing your blog page today to see if your sources can confirm the ABC News report today that the Bush admin is already using the data trawl to track down correspondents' sources."

I predicted this when I said in the previous article:

"Imagine an investigative reporter reports on a representative who is taking bribes and the source is a congressional aide. Guess who could determine the identity of that aide though phone records without a warrant."

What's important to understand is not WHETHER this has happened. The thing to understand is that it is POSSIBLE. Power corrupts so this power can and will be abused. We need protections from the possibility of abuse but Bush says no, just trust me. Its not a case of whether an abuse has happened, its whether the abuse could happen at all. That is why the constitution put in place oversight.

Its only a matter of time when the president, due to Congress's lack of oversight, abuses this power. As suggested it may already have happened. The American government is not built on trust, its built on checks and balances. The republican party ignores checks and balances of a republican president and thus ignores the constitution. How unAmerican the republican party is.

It looks like journalists are presumed to be guilty until proven innocent. In its fight against "terror," the Bush Administration is monitoring the Fourth Estate (blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2006/05/federal_source_.html).

Anyone who cannot figure out that the intrusion into phone records is totalitarian in nature is ... not very smart.

Charles of MercuryRising
http://www.phoenixwoman.blogspot.com

OK, Mr. Arkin, I'm going to be regularly refreshing your blog page today to see if your sources can confirm the ABC News report today that the Bush admin is already using the data trawl to track down correspondents' sources.

South Asian names?

Do you mean muslim sounding names or do you think that even the non-muslims from that part of the world are now considered potential terrorists?

Scary indeed.

OUR SECRETIVE ADMINISTRATION: And this Administration has been whining for the past couples of years that Mr. Putin of Russia has been consolidating power and not acting in a democratic manner(-:

Mr. Arkin,

I suspect that many Americans are not bothered by the surveillance program itself, i.e., as long as they feel that the efforts being put forth by any Administration, were and are to protect America citizens.

The problem with this Administration is this Administration's historical use of nefarious and secretive methods that are employed to accomplish its confused objectives. That says a lot to me about the character of those in this Administration, sneaky, unaccountable and dangerous!

For it would also appear that this Administration conducts its affairs without any accountability or regard for anyone, neither God nor the Congress, or the people of the United States of America. They will only respond after they are caught!

Have you noticed that each year another layer of the secretcry onion of the current Administration gets pulled away from the onion, and the American people if not the world, gets blindsided when they find out about yet another secret disclosure or misrepresentation. When will it stop, for it would appear that both the clandestine attitudes and behaviors of this Administration are both intentional and entrenched, if not totalitarian like?

Why don't we just give the Congress and the Courts the next two years off, i.e., until this Administration is out of power. This Administration, I am certain, would prefer to act as all three branches of government; for sure they would prefer not to be interfered with. One can only wonder, what is going on right now, that neither the CONGRESS NOR THE AMERICAN will find out until some future date? I trust that it will not be something that will get most of us killed,while they are in their hiding places as they were on 911.

Peace & Grace

Archimedes others, The only reason that Mr. Rumsfox was outside of the Pentagon on 911 was, just like everyone that was in the Pentagon, he had to evacuate after the plane hit the building (I suspect that he was the first one out of the door). I have heard the testimonies of some in church who crawled around in fear on those dark, dank and burning floors!

And, everyone knows which President the FBI Center For Intelligence was named for. Please go back and read and reason my juxtaposition.

http://www.unknownnews.org/

Poll: 2004 Election Was Stolen; according to viewers of all news networks except Fox

News
Tell A Friend
by Rob Kall
http://www.opednews.com

Who are these Fox viewers. OpEdNews gives you the details.

In the first poll of its kind, (using First choice of TV news network as a demographic variable)OpEdNews.com, in the second OpEdNews/Zogby People's poll has learned that except for viewers of right wing news show, Fox News, poll respondents believe that the 2004 presidential election was stolen.

Overall, the poll of Pennsylvania residents found that 39% said that the 2004 election was stolen. 54% said it was legitimate. Shortly after the election, the NY Times suggested that a few fringe extremists and bloggers were concerned about the theft of the election.

But let's look at the demographics on this question. Of the people who watch Fox news as their primary sourc of TV news, one half of one percent believe it was stolen and 99% believe it was legitimate. Among people who watched ANY other news source but FOX, more felt the election was stolen than legitimate. The numbers varied dramatically:

Here are the stats by network listed as first choice by respondent and whether the respondent thought the election was stolen or legitimate.
Network Stolen Legitimate
ABC 56% 32%
CBS 64% 31%
CNN 70% 24%
FOX .5% 99%
MSNBC 65% 24%
NBC 49% 43%
Other 56% 28%

The poll asked people which was their favorite source of TV newst. Among the 689 people in the poll who answered this question, 37% watched Fox news, more than any other single network. CNN came in second with 21% with MSNBC third, with 13%. It makes sense for these three 24/7 news networks to be the top in this category, since the others air news for limited parts of the day.

A lot more information on Fox News viewers :

After Fox news, the second choice for news network among Fox viewers is ABC 38% and MSNBC 37%, followed by CNN with 27%, NBC with 19% and CBS with 6%.

74% of it's viewers are married. 15% are single and 10% are divorced, widowed or separated. Whether they are fair and balanced, is up for debate. But they appear to be THE family channel, at least for Republicans. 64% have children. 85% of them come from non-union families. Among churchgoers, half go to church, temple or mosque rarely, never or just holidays. But for Fox News Viewers half go frequently. Among NBC viewers, 67% go most frequently. NBC has the most religious viewers. More born-agains watch NBC; 54% to 46%, and Born Agains are least likely to watch ABC: 95%/5%, MSNBC 78%/22%, CBS 76% to 24% and CNN 65%/35%. More Catholics, Protestants and Born-agains watch Fox news than any other news network.

82% of people who identify themselves as conservative and 80 of those who consider themselves very conservative watch Fox News. Zero liberal or progressives watch Fox News as their first choice, and 42% of moderates chose FOx news as their first choice. The first choice of progressives (very liberal) is Other, assumingly C-Span and the like. The first choice of Liberals is CNN.

Fox news is the favorite of suburban, small city and rural dwellers. CNN is the first choice of large city dwellers.

Among immigrants Fox news is the top favorite.

46% of men and 30% of women watch Fox news.

Less than 2% of Democrats favor Fox news, while it's the favorite for 75% of Republicans and 34% of independents. For Republicans and independents, Fox is the network that is first choice. CNN is viewed as first choice by Democrats, with 38% choosing it.

The OpEdNews.com/Zogby People's Poll, with 42 questions, also found that the PA US Senate Race, with Rick Santorum, is not at all like other polls have reported. While Casey Has a 47-37% lead. He has spent millions of dollars to get it. His opponents Chuck Pennacchio and Alan Sandals are both within similar range, with 45% and 43% with Pennacchio having spent under $100,000 and Sandals having spent under $500,000. Both the current and a previous OpEdNews/Zogby people's poll found, that after respondents were given position information on the candidates, that Casey's lead disappears and he pulls a smaller percentage than either Pennacchio or Sandals.

We are waiting on further crosstab analysis of the data. We believe that we will find that if you pull out Fox viewers, the rest of America has a far different view of America and the Bush Administration

This poll was run May 9th through 10th, in Pennsylvania, by the Zogby organization.

Methodology statement from Zogby:
Zogby International conducted interviews of 707 likely voters online. Panelists who have agreed to participate in Zogby polls online were invited to participate in the survey. The online poll ran from 5/9/06 through 5/10/06. The margin of error is +/- 3.8 percentage points. Margins of error are higher in sub-groups. Slight weights were added to party, age, race, religion, and gender to more accurately reflect the population.

More detailed Statistics from the poll will be posted later today.

Take action -- click here to contact your local newspaper or congress people:
Report that Besides Fox Viewers, Poll Shows People Believe Bush Stole the 2004 Election

Click here to see the most recent messages sent to congressional reps and local newspapers

Rob Kall is executive editor and publisher of OpEdNews.com, President of Futurehealth, Inc, and organizer of several conferences, including StoryCon, the Summit Meeting on the Art, Science and Application of Story and The Winter Brain Meeting on neurofeedback, biofeedback, Optimal Functioning and Positive Psychology. He is a frequent Speaker on a wide range of subjects. See more of his articles here and, older ones, here.

I just don't get it. The people in this country that are the most macho in support of the "War on Terror", who decry criticism of the government's surveillance as helping the enemy, are all in favor of giving up civil liberties to protect us from terrorists.

By contrast, our founding fathers included one Patrick Henry who said "Give me liberty or give me death!" Those who deem themselves the only patriots nowadays seem to be saying "Go ahead, take my liberty, just don't kill me!" How tough, how patriotic, how warrior-like are these people?

http://www.readthehook.com/stories/2002/05/21/newsInvestigationAtLocalSp.html

Robert wrote:
"Of course they are willing to give up their freedoms because they've had their fear ratcheted up by the media again and again. Look at what's on the news and news style programs, murder, kidnaping, child abduction, pedophilia, and yes, terrorism."

That is absolutely NOTHING compared with the news in the 1960s, when Cuba had missles aimed at the US, when the Soviets said they would bury us, when in school we ducked and covered in weekly drills, when many people, including a neighbor of mine, built bomb shelters in their backyards, when planes were being hijacked to Cuba weekly, and when Red China seemed, well, crazy in their hatred of the US. Yet, somehow through all of that MSM reporting, America kepts its liberties safe. Maybe today we are mostly a nation of scardycats. Americans need a spine and a leader to tell them they have spines. Someone to tell them they are Americans and not subjects, freedom loving people and not dogs worried about their next meal, and the people who brought democracy to the world, a world now run mostly by the people and for the people, and NO fear is so great that we will give up those freedoms we cherish. Americans need to stand up and tell Bush his policies are unAmerican and we will not stand for it.

Sully:
Some excellent points in your post of May 15, 2006 09:43 AM

Several years ago Timothy Maier wrote two articles about the Army's National Ground Intelligence Center(NGIC)in Charlottesville, Virginia using telephone, computer and physical surveillance to identify and coerce analysts that supported a female employee who had filed a discrimination complaint. bellaciao is an interesting blog on this matter

Peak in Government Intrusion?

It looks like five years after 9/11 and the biggest blank cheque our citizens even wrote, this admistration still has not found the terrorists and their sympathizers lurking in our country. Seems an awful long time! Either we are being suckered by the biggest con-men in history or we have a bunch of bumbling idiots at the top. I don't know which is worse.

Have we reached a peak in government intrusion in private lives? No. I think we still have some ways to go. The peak will occur when President Bush can no longer start a sentence with:

"After 9/11 __________ (fill in anything in the blank), and I have a responsibility to protect the American people".

"Millions of "innocent" Americans are countin on me to protect them from _______ (fill in the blank)..... We are putting their lives and security at risk when we ________ (fill in just about anything in the blank).

The good Republican folks on the Hill and Senator Liberman seem to be getting a little shy of shoutin "traitor" or "giving comfort to the enemy" everytime someone sees things differently. Congressman Jack Murtha and former senator Max Cleland must be sleep better now.

Bill, I tend to agree with you that this is probably not intended to deveop some governmental "enemies list". But look, we have had nearly six years now to observe how George W. Bush has thoroughly politicized almost every government agency. What I see is the danger, the temptation on the part of overzealous political appointees to use this data to accumulate data on political rivals.

Does anyone out there believe that somehow, someway, they are not going to figure out how to get into phone calls and wiretap data that turns up the names od prominent political opponents--Bill or Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, Al Gore, prominent news media people they may not like--in the hope that something damaging or embarrassing might turn up for future use?

The history of the Bush administration's heavy politicization of federal agencies, the paid off journalists who wrote sympathetic columns supporting their policies, the redacting of findings in science reports that don't sit well with Bush, the near fanatical devotion of Bush to secrecy in his White House, and the general level of incompetence and cronyism, simply does not inspire confidence in me that they will be judicious in their management of such a sensitive program. They have not exhibited that level of propriety before.

The idea that the NSA can't have these records, but everybody else can just buy them is silly.

Even these guys though it could be useful.

Big Brother is watching:
Lots of Software running against data. The problem inmy mind is clasic garbage in garbage out.

Or in other words what results has all of this bought us?
Have Drugs stopped coming into this country?
Have the terrorist trials we have had been against major players?
Do we know what is happening in Iran?

So out of all of this spending and oversight by congress have we bought the proverbial $700 toilet seat?

just a different view on this data

The question is, given the non-elite's significant and growing distrust of all things governmental, will the profile parameters used in NSA surveillance become politicized, as it was during the 60's and 70's, and be used to spy on so-called political enemies, or will it actually make us any safer whatsoever? Most of the media and the silent-majority types thought those who spoke up about being spied on 35 years ago were paranoid nuts with tin-foil hats; FOI request have proven they were not.

What's next - divining our bad intentions from the bumps on our skulls and astrology charts?

Sully,

I addressed these issues in an earlier blog "Tip of the Iceberg". It's too late to dwell on the 2004 election but you can be sure as the antiwar/antiBush movement grows and its leadership becomes more visible the Republican attack dogs will use that datamining to play dirty politics.

Overnight, millionaire donors, who happen to be Republican will create organizations calling themselves grass root to attack political opponents, distort their words and deeds, deflect and dilute their message by smearing the person.

There will be a war this fall and again in the fall of '08. Can you picture Karl Rove with his face painted up wearing a warbonnet, astride a Palomino, on horses next to him Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and way behind on a mule no less, Bill Frist, a doctor who evidently doesn't believe in science when it comes to getting the vote?

Sully,

You hit the bullseye with your comments.

Thanks.

Mr. Arkin,

With respect to intelligence or the military you want seamless integration. At times I have trouble deciphering your political leaning, but then again I don't fit into any one box, a church going secular humanist, social liberal opposed to most welfare, pro union, environmentally conscious but not a tree hugger, supporter of the military, but not the civilians and 4 stars overseeing their efforts, etc.

One byproduct of using fear to defeat the other party politically is it has unintended consequences. In our nation's case we have soccer moms and the elderly who are obsessed with personal security, wanting to avoid being a victim of crime.

The elderly are huge watchers of the news and they vote. Terrorism at a small scale is a police matter, meaning it is more of a crime than a war. The television media in particular bombards people with images of terrorist attacks in far off places and all the talking heads (who are motivated to sell their books) make it sound like 10 million jihadists are lying around in America waiting to pick up their swords at the shout of Allah Abukar (think I spelled it right).

Of course they are willing to give up their freedoms because they've had their fear ratcheted up by the media again and again.
Look at what's on the news and news style programs, murder, kidnaping, child abduction, pedophilia, and yes, terrorism.

I put the onus on the media for creating this mindset, feeding on people's fears and causing the rational to think and behave irrationally.

The administration has good intentions but their vision on how to win this fight is like reading from a Tom Clancy novel, good
reading but totally divorced from reality.
Problem solving is so much more boring and decidedly less high tech especially when it comes to a war of ideas (Western Judeo Christian secularism if there is such a term and fundamentalist Islam).

Funny thing is leading this effort on our side is a man whose party uses as its base religious fundamentalists, who believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible, who believe dinosaurs and man walked the planet together, and who believe what's going on now neatly fits into the Second Coming.

Fox News doesn't help; it just happens to be the most outrageous organization out there. They do a good job tying natural disasters with manmade ones (be it crime, war, accidents). If you're a soccer mom, retired person, or religious fundamentalist you are more inclined to trust government to do the right thing. After all they don't put innocent people in jail and you have nothing to hide.

All this high tech gadgetry is impressive but it's making us overly dependent on machines to solve our problems. Look at the one group of hijackers; for Pete's sake, they set off the metal detectors. The machine worked but the second line of defense, man, didn't have a clue.

This debate between Islam and the West has gone on for centuries. Improving the economic conditions of the masses and increasing their literacy rate and exposure to the West will do more to win this than all the bullets, bombs, and data bases.

Returning to the diplomatic table, investing in the people of those regions, not the corporations or governments, and providing them an alternative to the fundamentalist imam can bring all three monotheistic religions into harmony.

As long as we continue to distort the size of the threat people will continue to let the government intrude more into their lives, all in the name of security.

Mr. Arkin writes: "Innocent means of course mostly white, mostly Christian Americans who accept that the government knows best and that the national security state is only after the bad guys and would never apply its new found capacities in any illegitimate way."

The truth of Mr. Arkin's speculation as to who will be considered "innocent" by this Administration has the ring of truth. An interesting tautology of the Bush political base - hmmmmmmm.

There are two topics I do not see being discussed in this debate:

1) What will it take for the American People to realize the extent this government is trampling on their liberties? My guess is when it is exposed the government is using their unlawful abilities to gather information on or attack political enemies ala Nixon. That type of abuse is certain to come from the ability of unchecked power to corrupt. The questions we should be asking are whether it has already happened, such as in the 2004 elections, and why we are willing to wait for an abuse that will certainly happen.

2) Why is the danger we face from international terrorists equal to or greater than the danger we faced during WW2 or the cold war? One must remember that when Nixon was forced out of office in the 70s under threat of impeachment for such abuses as domestic spying, we were at war with Vietnam, a Soviet proxy, and in a cold war with the Soviet Union, which had spies everywhere. It was understood the Soviets had placed sleeper cells in America which would destroy American infrastructure as a prelude to WW3. Yet, during that time of duck&cover we kept our liberties and forced a president that violated them out of office. Is the danger today so much worse that we are even talking about giving up hard fought liberties and giving a president our confidence who says these violations of law are necessary to protect America?

let's see, now... think of a government putting up fencing around its borders (where's miro when he's really needed), messing with phone calls and library cards, boldly redefining the "military-industrial complex" theory, spending money that will future generations, putting creative spins on the laws of the land, advocating and implementing 'first strike' actions, and on and on. the soviet union? east germany?

is it any wonder that countries flinch when they hear of our desire to bring american-like democracy to their countries? in its purest state, there can be no doubt of the adage that while it may not be the most perfect of systems, compared to the rest it is. depending on your politcal bent, everyone can find fault with adminstrations. clinton was a loser until bush came along. carter was a snoozer, they say, failing to recall the turmoil that preceeded him. reagan was a cowboy. nixon, kennedy, truman, ike. each the darling of election campaigns eventually losing luster by the reality of governing. it's in our nature to tear down what we build up.

can we truly blame the leader we put in place based on his (usually) stated opinions? i n most cases, the fault lies with the electorate. the other instances, we elect based on promises that fail to materialize or are perverted once enthroned.

what we should also be telling folks is that we have the opportunity to change direction every 2, 4 and 6 years.