It seems the government should be able to do at least as much Internet monitoring as the public sector does. The Canadian plot may well be an exemplary case of how monitoring can pay off.

But I wish people on both sides of the issue would stop conflating objections with NSA and other monitoring programs themselves with objections to the executive branch monitoring our phones, email, and blog comments (like this one) without oversite. At the very least that leads to distrust in government and gives fuel to the conspiracy fires; at worst, that power is used to do exactly what the conspiracy theorists accuse the government of doing.

"Trust, but verify" is the essential maxim in all government operations. When a man like Al "Abu-Graib" Gonzalez is involved, verify first.

" ... Thinking that by not being aggressive, which we did for years, we will deter future jihadists from their suicide missions is ludicrous, since their absolute devotion is not something that is swayed by so petty a measure."

The US/west is being aggressive now. How is that working out with regard to the number of current jihadists versus the number of jihadists that existed prior to the invasion of Iraq? The numbers speak for themselves.

" ... Thinking that we can deter future terrorists the same way we deter little children is terribly naieve and demonstrates a fundamental ignorance of this new breed of terrorist."

Your own words serve to contradict this statement and prove the importance of presenting different ideologies to children/young adults:

"History should tell us that these type of people can only be deterred by changes in their own theology, not by violence or a lack thereof."

You seem to have little faith in the impact that the west could have on these children's/young adult's opinions (and other's opinions) by simply admitting that the west has made mistakes with regard to its policies and subsequent consequences for individuals in the ME. You also seem to have little faith in the power of presenting a coherent counter-argument for these children/young adults to consider or in trying any new strategy (versus military) that may result in a reduction of bloodshed - in the ME or in the west.

IMHO, the west's silence is serving as a sign of weakness in that a lack of response to the charges levied against it intimates that said charges are true, by default. While some of these charges may be true, other are not true.

Stay silent, refuse to engage in a discussion of the issues/respond to those charges, refuse to offer any options/opposing ideas, and watch the number of new recruits grow.

I read that young recruits at one point were questioning why the west did not respond to Mr. Bin Laden's offer of a truce. That 'questioning' indicated to me that they are not solidly convinced that the situation between the west and AQ is black and white, so to speak. It matters little whether he was sincere or not - answering him and asking for details of that offer would have been enough to publicize his position and that of the west for those children/young adults to consider, before they may have decided to participate in physical jihad.

Mr. Bin Laden has stated that he is pained by the deaths of innocent women, children, and men in ME countries. So am I. I am also pained by the deaths of innocent women, children, and men all over the world. We need to help ALL children/young adults to learn that killing innocent children, women, and men is wrong - no matter who is responsible for their death. This is the 'common ground' that we all need to walk on - and represents the strongest counter-argument that we can present not only to these children/young adults - but to AQ, as well.

But, in order to make this argument, the west will need to change. It is this very point that is preventing any forward motion in the WOT. IMHO, AQ will not rest until the movement has succeeded in altering the way in which the west does business in the ME. This means that the west will have to give up/change something - the only remaining questions concern when this will occur and in what form those changes will materialize.

AQ kills innocent westerners because in their view, the west has killed innocent Muslims and others. The west then kills innocent Muslims and other individuals because AQ has killed westerners.

This 'war' is about respect and fairness. Neither entity can be bought and paid for by using the lifeless bodies of innocent children, women, and men, as currency.

Two wrongs do not make a right - a concept that can be understood by most children anywhere in the world but one that is seemingly not understood by some adults.

Both factions need to rethink this 'war' - unless the results of the stand-off to date are acceptable - to both them and the children who are modeling themselves - after all of us.

KILLING A MAN!

Satan, the Jews and the Roman Republic failed when they colluded together to kill Jesus Christ; it was for each of them their greatest strategic blunder. It would have been better for all of them, had they let Jesus live. As a result of their blunder, the legacy of Jesus Christ became larger than Judaism, Satan and the Roman Republican all put together. [Oops, Freudian slip, i.e., The Roman Republican].

ZARQAWI is reportedly dead, now there will be lasting peace in the middle-east? I doubt that!

How many Zarqawi's are there left in the terrorist deck of cards? And how many individuals are in line to replace them?

Ameerican killed a man, however, America did did not kill an ideal. We only turned up the heat!

There is a single common denominator, I believe, that all revolutionaries fight for, i.e., freedom from perceived oppression, and oppressors! Americans, above anyone else should understand why people are willing to die in order to be free!

Killing a man is not the answer, turning enemies into friends is the only answer.

TRFKA

you really need to be asking,

what is the new name(s) of the secret agency that has replaced NSA and the CIA....

I mean if you know about it, it aint secret right?

when did they declassify the name NSA?

regarding needing secrecy...that's an oversold commodity.

honesty, and checking as to whether or not that honesty is being maintained is what is needed......

even if someone is crooked, they will work with the system if they know they'll be punished.......

there's like zero chance of getting away with any thing significant nowdays, anywhere...

that is why this administration is so big on

_no oversight_

you can't steal if you're being watched...

it's got nothing to do with terrorists,

that is quite obvious....

and how much did Saddam escape Bagdhad with in broad effing daylight....... .9 Billion in cash...how convenient...and I suppose they've located that raht?

.

Good Article William

These "internet spying" developments are fascinating.

Given the nature of my website my site meter picks up interesting site visits from DoD employees, foreigners, the odd Russian "journalist" etc.

Site meters provide an awareness that such people are perhaps web surfing, perhaps regular visitors, but they never comment.

I'm acutely aware that a visit (or monitoring) from a sophisticated organisation eg intelligence agency would be invisible to commercially available site meters (or any site meter).

I think the Canadian approach of transparency about internet monitoring is valid in deterring "homegrown terrorist" groups. Regarding large scale al Qaeda style groups I think they've been highly security conscious about communication monitoring since 9/11.

Pete
http://spyingbadthings.blogspot.com/

If the 9/11 attackers used the net more in their planning, they wouldn't have pulled off their attack - someone sane would have run across their stuff

Rants like "Joe"'s are beyond silly - all you need is probable cause, and the goverment can (with warrants from an independent judiciary) photo and monitor you during every intimate moment ...

some of us just like the idea that government should have some probable cause (like planning a terrorist attack, inciting riot, advocating overthrow of the government ..) before the government watches everything you do ...

if you visit a web site that pushes any of those ideas, it'd only be sensible for the FBI (or Canadian counterpart) to check out your background ...

if there's only 4500 terrorist sites (who counts stuff like that ??) that number is easily monitored - while protecting constitutional rights of US citizens (and Canadians under their Charter)

a lot more efficient than fishing through billions of phone records

The wingnuts say, "See? Those Canadians just proved that the government needs to monitor our communications 24/7 in order to spot terrorists and prevent their attacks!"

I say, "Bet those Canadians got search warrants where required, too."

I think that Arkin is again missing the point. These Canadians did not become terrorists because they felt a false sense of security on the internet, they became terrorists because they fell in love with the ignorant jihadist and anti-western preaching they found there. The Canadian authorities being open about their detection and surveillance methods seems silly, since these obviously unstable people didn't get that way from a false sense of security on the internet or anywhere else.

This is the same problem with the "the WOT creates more terrorists" argument. The WOT doesn't create more radical jihadis, they already hold those beliefs or are at least sympathetic to them. The WOT simply draws them out of the woodwork now rahter than letting them fester and pop up later. Thinking that by not being aggressive, which we did for years, we will deter future jihadis from their suicide missions is ludicrous, since their absolute devotion is not something that is swayed by so petty a measure. Thinking that we can deter future terrorists the same way we deter little children is terribly naieve and demonstrates a fundamental ignorance of this new breed of terrorist. The knowledge of surveillance by the authorities does not deter bank robbers nor even speeders or other minor traffic offenders. So why does anyone think that it will deter religious maniacs bent on martyrdom and the promise of eternal paradise. History should tell us that these type of people can only be deterred by changes in their own theology, not by violence or a lack thereof.

Trust always in Reason

Archimedes

It would be prudent to consider the tips supplied to local authorities about a possible training camp that may have been attended by the individuals who were arrested. Tips apparently began to filter in last December:

--

"WASHAGO, Ont. -- It was the bursts of automatic gunfire that made the farmer in this tiny central Ontario tourist community think something was amiss as he fed his animals after dark. ... "I feed my animals at night," the farmer said Sunday. "So I'd be outside late at night and I'd heard the gunfire from over there, automatic gunfire. I'd hear rat-a-tat-a-tat-a-tat. ... "I just knew there was something wrong about them. It was obvious they were doing some kind of military training." ... The sounds of war were coming from what police now describe as a terrorist training camp on an isolated property just outside Washago, about 150 kilometres north of Toronto. ... Late last year, residents began noticing groups of as many as a dozen men, dressed in camouflage clothing, drifting into town. The strangers drove up from Toronto in three or four vehicles at a time. They would converge at the property, staying for a week at a time, sometimes longer. ... "They were out there almost every other week," said one neighbour, who like all of the local residents willing to speak with the National Post Sunday, was too frightened to give their names. "I would see like eight of them at a time usually, sometimes as many as a dozen. ... "They were all wearing camouflage gear and carrying big bags of equipment coming and going at all times of the day or night." ... The newcomers quickly drew suspicious stares in this small, closely knit rural community on the edge of Ontario's cottage country. ... "You weren't going to tell me these guys were cottagers or even hunters for goodness sake," said one woman who lived down a quiet country lane from the group's makeshift training camp. ... "It was kind of hard to miss them," she added. ... It is believed the building was used as a makeshift headquarters for the training, which began late last fall and continued until last weekend. ... Local residents said there were increasingly alarming signs that something illegal was happening at the property. ... Finally, late last December, one neighbour decided he had had enough and called police."

(http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.html?id=9ee0b6bc-6d12-4fde-bd13-85d1cd6b71c5)

Any individual communicating with 'jihadists' on the internet is not inherently wise. While efforts (lawfulness aside) to investigate such communications are not completely worthless, I suspect that they will 'catch' that which they were designed to catch - individuals who are communicating with jihadists on the internet and are not wise. Has AQ developed their own deep web yet? Does anyone actually believe that significant members of the group are indeed writing/receiving emails to/from one another?

The discovery/appearance of homegrown and/or lily-white independent 'warriors' attracted to the idea of physical jihad should be of no surprise to anyone. Their level of preparedness and planning with regard to actual attacks, however, seems to be of some surprise to certain people.

Additionally, the discovery of new recruits does not necessarily indicate that the 'old' AQ is in disarray or has ceased to exist. Distraction is a powerful tool, especially when actual targets are impossible to locate. IMHO, the death of the AQ 'leadership' as it was known after 9/11, has not occurred. No one seems to know where said leaders are - or more importantly, what they have been planning since 9/11.

The US/west should have been directly addressing 'young, impressionable youths' with words and ideas a long time ago and ditto for Mr. Bin Laden and AQ. But, the fear of having to make certain admissions (US/west) has prevented this public discussion from occurring - except on AQ's behalf. If children/young adults are attracted to AQ's ideology, it may be due to the US/west's failure to a) promote the benefits - and admit the costs - of its own ideologies and 2) take responsibility for its actions/policies, specifically, as they are perceived by individuals in the ME and by some Muslims. What does the US/west have to offer to these children/young adults and why is no one concerned about reaching them unless they become involved in building a bomb?

The 'new' generation of potential jihadists - is said to be the west's own children. IMHO, we 'saw it coming' in that AQ's publicly released documentation stated that they were recruiting lily-whites. Once again, the west ignored every sign, symptom, and statement that was forwarded to them - and the win will go to AQ.

Some surprises, like this 'news item,' can be anticipated. If so, they aren't surprises, at all.

Pale Rider,

I do believe that we are, possibly witnessing eschatalogical implications, given the U.S. occupation of Iraq. The Bible spoke about Babylon the Great in the end times, we might be that Babylon of Biblical universal prophecy!

If so, send on the Horsemen!

TRFKA

Shout out to P.J. Casey and The Truth, The Whole Truth and Nothing But The Truth!

I am hoping for the day when we can discuss the real reasons that so many people around the world hate America.
Bremmer, attempted to delineate the real issues, for example, that the Iraqi people had with the Americanos. It is a known fact that the majority of Iraqi people, once upon a time, admired the Americanos. Does anyone ever ask, what happened? Or do Americans care?

It is clear to me that the wealth, economic and military power of the U.S.A., have resulted in American pride, arrogance, haughtiness, indifference and a delusional belief system about America's position and importance in the universe.

But you cannot tell the average white American (and Dr. Rice) the truth about the 220 year old American experiment. What Bremmer wrote concerning Iraq, neither the President nor many of the American people were interested in reading. Why?
White Americans do not care to hear dissenting opinions about themselves or their god, America, which I refer to as the TRUE AMERICAN IDOL.

Second, as long as most Americans have money, or the possibility of gaining wealth, they simply do not care to be their 'brothers keepers.

Ann Coulter is wrong about Liberalism alone, being a religion. True cosmology in America is, that in the beginning God created America (the Universe), and America was with God, and America is God!
The praxis of the American Idol Faith is, thou shalt worship America with your whole mind, body and spirit; and you shall have no other god before her.

I can prove that Americans, too many of them, are American Idol Worshipers. Simply put, how many of you will die for the word of God? Now compare that with the numbers of those who have, and will die for the U.S.SA.

Anne, is an American cosmologist herself. She is one of its staunchest disciples, supporters and defenders. And like Anne, too many Americans, who trust in America's wealth and military might, do not believe that they have to get along with or acknowledge any other individual or nation, that is not an American Idol worshipper.

Americans and America, since its origin, have always preferred, and still prefer to believe in American delusions. Some Americans cannot even formulate truth in their minds anymore, because they have imbibed on so much American propaganda; and they have done so for so long.

I am glad to see that some Americans, at the risk of being called unpatriotic, are beginning to speak up. If this Union will be preserved, it will be preserved because of all of us who are more interested in having a righteous nation, that is interested in getting along with other nations of the world that the true God has placed on this planet, and, not the bullying and delusioanl self-serving nation that we have come to live in.

And that is the truth, the whole truth and nothing else but the truth.

But continue to spin American propaganda as long as you will, I will be watching to see what enduring effect it will have on the rest of the people of the world!. An more importantly, I wonder how long God will put up with it?

For what America and Americans at one time despised, America and too many Americans have become!
TRFKA

Where, oh where, are the wailings of the privacy freaks about how these poor innocent Muslims' privacy rights were so cruelly invaded? ACLU, where are you?

NO INTERNET OR TELEPHONE MONITORING! Not in the USA. And not in Canada!

The Internet must be a law enforcement-free zone! The evil NSA has invaded these Canadians' privacy - they must be set free!

Obviously the jihadists will follow the path of kiddie porn mongers to secret web sites and spontaneous instant-message gatherings where they will exchange the really nasty stuff. Infiltrating all this is going to require a lot of headcount for Big Brother and a lot of cash from taxpayers. So maybe some IT-ish jobs from all this won't be outsourced to south Asia.

The irony here is that the US probably doesn't have enough people who can read Arabic, Farsi, and Urdu, so we're going to have to rely on the Canadians, British, and French to help us catch the bad guys. So Dubya's instinctive anti-foreigner xenophobia may end up threatening the security of the United States. Well, for the next couple of years, anyway.

P.J. writes "Purely military solutions will not work in dealing with insurgencies", and we hear this supposedly self-evidently true statement constantly.

It's simply not a categorical truth. "Insurgencies", or rebellions, as I'd prefer to say, have been defeated definitively by military means repeatedly. The American Civil War is a glaring example.

Stating over and over that the military is not the full solution can end up blinding us to the potential that the military has to be just that sometimes. The military is not always everywhere a possible solution in and of itself. But it is sometimes in some places a possible solution in and of itself.

Purely military solutions will not work in dealing with insurgencies. One must deal with the reasons that produced the conflict. You may defeat a particular organization, but if you don't address the reason behind the conflict a new organization will rise to take its place. How many generations of Palestinians have fought Israel? How many new terrorist organizations will arise from the Iraq conflict? Listen to people, learn what is possible, and act on those possibilities.

Reverend,

Don't be too hard on the military, its really more a function of intelligence. If they know the threat the military can meet it, as long as its unknown they will be like the police, responding after the incident has occurred. Its always heartening to see when they catch these folks in the planning phase, as they did in Canada. Its hard to imagine what they would have done with 3 tons of ANFO, but it would have been ugly I'm sure.

Will,

I agree that we should have some type of formal hearing for detainees, and not hold people indefinitely. With that said, our usual standards of military or civilian criminal prosecution won't work. Guilt beyond a reasonable doubt is almost impossible to establish when you find someone on the Afghan frontier with an AK, a radio and a map. On the other hand, our standards for POWs hardly work well either. There has always been the assumption that POWs are held until the conflict is over, and when the power they are fighting for surrenders, they will be willing to go home and live in peace. Clearly the Jihad "soldiers" won't live up to that expectation. In the end they should receive some type of hearing, to determine as best possible if they had bad intentions, and represent an ongoing threat to our civilization. At that point they should be imprisoned, and it will probably be for life, although they should continue to receive parole hearings to determine their status as an ongoing threat.

will in seattle,

i'm with you to a point - innocent or guilty, there are better venues (read: legal) for the captives. we may never know their whole story. in my opinion the nazis inflicted greater horrors, and had their day in court.

if we're not going to try them ourselves, who will? shall we ever fully embrace the world court concept, or continue with the 'when it's convenient' perspective?

One thing the press seems to forget, when reporting on the Canadian arrests, is that Canada, like France and Italy, has actually given full legal rights to its terrorism suspects - charging them in a civilian court, trying them in public jury trials, finding them guilty (one hopes), and then sentencing them and imprisoning them.

But we, sadly, seem to have a hard time doing anything but keeping innocents in Gitmo that we then have to release after years of imprisonment, or by using torture making it impossible to actually charge and sentence them so we can't hold a real trial.

The proof of one's respect for the Rule of Law is in one's Actions, not one's Words.

Coop!

Okay, I am going to give the President and the military another chance to win back my confidence. However, they had better show up this time.

Having said that, I still want the Fed to change its elitist attitudes about the U.N. and other sovereign nations and self-determing people around the world. These people will fight back, and our military with its tanks and submarines are simply not trained to take on 3rd world style warfare, i.e., without killing us right along with them.

We can shoot a plane out of the sky, however, there will be more civilian hostages on board than there will be foreign freedom fighters on board, who have been antagonized over the years by USA policy inteference.

Some of you place your confidence in your god [The USA and its military machine], I place my confidence in the Universal and Almight God!

Ever read the scripture that says, Except the Lord keep the city, the watchman watcheth in vain? Well, the watchmen were watching on 911, and what happened?

TRFKA

Rev,
Could you sound maybe a little more apocalyptic in your message?
Do you wish for the Cavalry or the four horsemen?

Little-mentioned by U.S. media is that: 1)two of the plotters were initially arrested on handgun charges; 2)they were detained by a Canadian Customs student-trainee (!), doing their job ably.

Reverend,

"fend for itself until the Calvary arrives"

Are we waiting for the second coming, or a soldier in a M1A1 tank? Might want to clear that up since it really changes the meaning of what you are trying to say.

PANDORA's JAR has been broken open!

GIVEN THE FEDERAL NUCLEATE VOID, American citizens must come together, organize themselves, and prepare to secure their own safety in the event of future calamities, just as it has fallen upon the shoulders of citizens to protect America's southern borders! For it is clear now that war is being brought to North American soil! Our current Administration has taught other people and nations to simplyignore borders, given unlawful immigration and its foray into Iraq!

Perhaps this is the reason that the Government has stepped up its plans to practice getting its people their hide-outs, given the upcoming practice drills that we discussed earlier in the week.
Given yesterday's news, now does anyone feel that we need to protect our borders? Clearly the government did not have a contingency plan for the 911 disaster, or for Hurricane Katrina, that that hit the Gulf Coast last year. And it would appear that the Federal Government lacks a plan, in the event that we are attacked from the North. Where was the American Military on 911?
Have you been contacted or told what to do in the event that an unfortunate calamity were to occur on some future date? I have not! Well, I have been told to watch the warning lights. But what do you do afterwards, hide? I suppose that the citizenry will have to do what it had to do on 911, fend for itself until the Calvary arrives.

What happened to the good old days when the Commander-in-Chief, or Tribal Chief, would lead the braves into combat, safety or retreat? With regard to the Fed and 911, the government's plan was clear, hide the President and the policymakers who get us into messes, and let the citizenry fend for themselves.
God bless the fir personnel, police personnel, school-crossing guards, EMR workers, hospital personnel, church leaders, parents, daycare workers and others who had the conviction and the bravery to do their jobs in spite of the perils that surrounded them on that dreaded day.
Some will say to me, what good are a people without a government? I would answer, what good was the government to the people, given the two most recent catastrophic events that hit America? The Fed does not instill a sense of confidence in this preacher, and fighters are already in Canada? How long do you suppose that they have been there? Does the Fed instill any confidence in you?
I feel that it is incumbent on the citizens of America to come together and proactively organize our own evacuation, safety, preparedness and survival plans, with the help of local government officials, churches, fire and police personnel.
In California, our officials prepare us on a regular basis, as to what we should do in the event of a national disasters. In spite of the enormity of the Loma Prieta earthquake that hit California a decade ago, the body count and injuries were very low given the enormity of the quake itself. The rest of you should get ready as well.

And don't be to quick to ignore this unpatriotic Reverend. But periodically, someone has to remind you of what is true!
TRFKA

I heard you on _On the Media_ and thought you were right on target. Having read a few of your blog posts I see that you are saying things I've been trying to get into words. This idea of openness so common now in the computer world is absolutely the way to go in the fight on terror. I know that there are things that will have to be done in secret, but the number of those things must be small and we have to work diligently to keep it small. With an open system, we not only have oversight, we have the possibility for improvement.

Eric Raymond wrote that, "given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow." He was talking about software. I believe that you're talking about this same idea in politics.

Keep writing. I'll keep reading.

So in the end is it better for us to leave all these Johnny Jihad web sites up and running so we can monitor and catch these evil Muslims, or should we just hire a bunch of 16 year olds to constantly shut down such sites worldwide as they pop up? Sounds like monitoring is the way to go.