makes time to meet your kitty, afte r 2:00 expresso bliss.

.

email from a the CEO of Bridas Corporation, an Argentinian firm...

the "prisoners" in GITMO, may be _business competitors" to the

bush administration family, that

complained about having the Trans Afghanistan Pipleline

stolen from them to the tune of $3 TRILLION dollars....

are _YOU_ getting ANY of _that_ money, or are you

financing their rent-a-cops to the tune of $345 BILLION dollars...

is there some disparity betweens the

haves, and as bush so aptly said the have-mores

and you/the havenots?

wake up and smell the coffee burning,

it's not about patriotism, it's about manipulation....

plain and friggin simple.

How would you feel about being imprisoned in GITMO, because you were competing in a business deal?

how would you feel about your government manipulating the stock market?

are they sharing with you, or stripping you of your hard earned dollerros and selling you democracy as an empty slogan?

.

Rev,

"So what did America accomplish by duplicating the behaviors of those that they criticized, America simply turned Muslims around the world, who believed in America, into skeptics. And some of them have joined the fight against the 'Great Satan Deceiver Nation, the U.S.A."

Rev, as much as I agree with you on many subjects, this is way off base.

Try to go to any Muslim country, excepting Turkey, and practice your faith. What fate will await you?

America was the #1, yes #1, donor to Afghanistan before 9/11. What did that get us?

America tries to broker peace deals in the ME, primarily for the Palestinians, while the other Arab nations do nothing to help except give "reward" money to the families of suicide bobmers who have blown up Jews. With all the money the Saudis and Kuwaitis have - you would think that they could have bankrolled a successful Palestinian state years ago - they chose not to. They chose to use the Palestinians as low wage labor.

Without America in the equation, would a Palestinian state ever become a reality?

We are no angels, but if you want us to act like Muslims then we would be -

1. Sending non-Muslims to their death for practicing any religion other than Islam.
2. Beheading adulterers.
3. Sending our children to bomb infidels with suicide vests.
4. Funding terrorists who primarily target civilians.
5. Taking over peaceful foreign governments with no thought to establishing democracy. (Lebanon)
6. Keeping the primary cashflow of our country to the royal families (Saudi & Kuwait) without investing in our countries infrastructure.
7. Holding foreign diplomats illegaly (Iran)
8. Attacking shipping that serves as the world's energy route.
9. Using chemical weapons on our fellow Muslims.
10. Keeping the cash from the sale of our country's natural resources to the unelected leadership of our country.

Shall I go on?

You will come back and state everything bad America has done. In a lot of cases you will be right.

America is now simply acting more as the Muslim counties have been for decades. They have delared war on us. War is not fought by Marqus de Queensberry rules. We did not start this war. But we are going to finish it because failing to do so will just encourage more of the same behaviour from extremist muslims/tyrants.

Actually.... have you ever heard of OPEC?

a congresswoman,

in the "debate," about whether to say

"yeah, buddy." about bush and Iraq...

ssaid that 5 American OIL ROBBER BARRONS, had signed up to get Iraq's oil....

about six (6) months before there was a vote on a new government....

not to mention that controlling

MEXICO
SAUDI
KUWIAAT
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
MEXICO
JAPAN
UNITED STATES
as well as IRAQ, and perhaps EGYPT

gives those countries the ability to control markets....

NOT JUST THE FRIGGIN OIL MARKETS

and maybe reap some benefits, do you think having supercomputers that are analyzing stock markets and cash flow transactions that are able to compute algorithms in seconds that other countries take several minutes to analyze might give them an _advantage_ in the financial market place...

since poppa bush, still receives information from the CIA, at his request

could he be soliciting stock, oil or strategic resource informations that would give him and his friends a competitive edge in the world of finance...

who does he work for again, Carlyle Group, Halliburton you say....stock holder?

what the eff is he doing getting information as a _private_ businessman, that can give him the edge in a business competition?

can you say MOB?

.

gives those countries quite a bit of

Should we should "use intelligence" and leave other people in other countries alone so they don't feel provoked into defending themselves.

It's not important that they were Saudi's. Muslims are like Catholics in the respect that they many owe their allegences internationally, not to a nation. This is much stronger with Muslims. A slight to the Muslims of one country is a slight to all.

You sound like a gentleman that I debated on this subject several years ago. He too felt that the so-called 'terrorists' were wrong to come in and attack America, whereby destroying thousands of lives.

And he also excused America for turning around and doing the same thing in Iraq. Which is Toshiro? Is there anything such thing as right or wrong to people like you? Oh I get it, it is only wrong when someone sticks it to Americans.

You two would have made great war strategists, for he felt that we had to show those Muslims, that you do not mess with Americans. He did not care which Muslims, even those Muslims who live in America and have been responsible citizens.

So what did America accomplish by duplicating the behaviors of those that they criticized, America simply turned Muslims around the world, who believed in America, into skeptics. And some of them have joined the fight against the 'Great Satan Deceiver Nation, the U.S.A.

You might turn out to be an accomplished killer like George Bush, however, reason and civility would suggest that you take a course in realism and inhumaneness!

And it would appear that you also need to, 'remove the stone from your heart'!

The Rev

Jaxas,

Why don't we pretend, in the future, that we are on the Supreme Court. You will be Justice Scalia, and I will be Judge Thomas. I will simply nod in agreement to everything that you write, albeit in substance, I rarely agree with those two.

You may not always agree with everything that I write, however, I rarely disagree with anything that you write. I do not know if we are right or wrong, however, I would prefer to make a decision that is based on a mixture of faith, reason, tolerance, humility and understanding of both history and current realities, instead of drawing a conclusion that appears to be borne out of an arrogant, narrow, detached, inhuhame and militaristic mindset.

It would seem to me that Toshiro has a healthy does of the latter. Toshiro's nominalistic conclusions, are well-intended I suppose, however, his assumptive, dismissive and condescending conclusions ignore what totalitarianism was and is all about. Should America then practice totalitarianism in Korea, just as it has been doing, in Iraq?

We all know that with regard to Iraq, America has ignored the will, it would appear, of the majority of the world. Instead, America, by insisting that its will be done in Iraq (just as America did in Iran in 1953), in deference to international law, the United Nations, or the world's opinion, American has shown that it will practice totalitariansim however, and whenever it chooses!

It is not the exclusive domain or right of Americans, to fight against their internal or external oppressors. It may shock some Americans to hear this, but the conclusions that have been drawn by some nations and people in the world, that America is their oppressor, are on more than one occasion, accurate conclusions.

I suspect that Tito, Hitler, Mussolini and others, would agree with Toshiro and George Bush, if they were alive!

It has often appeared to this observer, that my own country practices exigent totatlitarianism, outside of its own borders, just as it once did internally, however, I will not get into that at this time.

To Toshiro, again, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. It has always amazed me how Americans are so quick to accuse other people of being terrorists, when many people in the world are just as amazed, as Bush learned in Vienna a week ago, that many see no difference in Americans, than they do in the ones that America accuses of being terrorists.

So whose right? The one's with the biggest guns I suppose. God help us if that is all that America really is!

"That to me sounds like a terrifying recipe for American intervention into countries all over the globe."

uhmmm...

excuse me.... BUT....

Weren't Muslim extremists the first ones to do the intervening...

a la WTC 1993, Khobi Towers, USS Cole, Embassies in Tanzania and Kenya, 9/11.... not to mention the attacks on US soil that we thwarted?

Rev, couldn't agree more... but I have apoint to make that must wait... off to the beach...

Toshiro, you make the argument that if Muslim countries won't reign in these extremists, then we will have to. That to me sounds like a terrifying recipe for American intervention into countries all over the globe.

There are a wide variety of extremists all over the world, including a goodly many right here in our own country. We have even had incidences of Christian Identity people from this country meddling in the affairs of Israel and Palestine hoping to bring on the Armageddon they are convinced the Book of Revelation has prophesied for the end times--which they believe is the times we are living in now.

Many of these extremist groups are reacting to government oppression within their own countries and may be even legitimately called--what was that term you so conveniently used--"freedom fighters". Again, some are simply fanatics and zealots who want some of extreme, narrow minded fundamentalism to be the basis of government--a Theocracy. And there are even some of those on the far right in our own country.

The point is that terrorism is a broad term and has no meaning absent a degree of specificity that lends context to its discussion. Bush has deliberately sought ambiguity in his use of the term, applying it both broadly and narrowly as it suits the political situation in which he finds himself.

The declaration of a war on terror was a monstrous error. Following the events of 9-11, a President who had an ample supply of brain cells would have confined his words, policies and actions to the pursuit of justice for those acts and the actors responsible. Instead, he was motivated to act in the worst possible way--one that was guaranteed to divide the world and our own country. He was motivated by a great many factors and personalities and ideologies.

In the first place, Bush was personally motivated to use the 9-11 attack as a broader excuse to go after the man who tried to kill his "daddy". Rove wanted to go after Iraq as a political strategy that gave off an image of Bush as a warriro President. Rumsfeld wanted to test his pet theories on reforming the military services and turning it into a leaner, meaner force. Cheney wanted to test the PNAC broader ideological vision to turn America on to a noble imperiat, using its awesome power to enforce democracy on the Middle and Near Eastern nations.

None of the administration leaders involved in the decisionmaking would countenance the more reality based view of such a policy based on past experiences at war and peacemaking. So now, having tested all of this and found it wanting, the administration seeks a way out and is using the same, flawed, more or less faith based methods they used that got us into this fine mess in the first place.

Instead of owning the mistakes they have made, they continue to seek an exit that allows them to continue deluding themselves that they were alwys right in the forst place and that it will simply take a little longer for the evidence to show it. Just like they still cling to the forlorn hope that maybe enough of a substance that can be called a weapon of mass destruction may yet be found.

What we are in Toshiro, is that stage of development now where Bush is in danger of leaving the White House with one of the worst legacies any President can leave another: Another bogged down guerilla war with weekly body bags and no clear exit strategy. And a completely failed foreign policy--the now defunct Bush Doctrine--with no apparent vision on how to come up with a better one.

toshiro wrote:
"And if they won't reign in their extremists and keep them from exporting violence, then we have to ride in a do it ourselves. You think we want to be in Iraq? Heck no."

What extremism did Iraq export? As I remember things, alQaeda did not like Saddam. He made his country secular. He kept the extremists and anyone who threatened his singluar power in prison or worse. Bush's stated reason for being in Iraq was WMD. He also implied that Iraq had something to do with 911 but that has been investigated and shown to have no basis. It was Bush's push to invade that lead him to see WMD that were not there and radical extremists that also were not there.

So you ask whether "we" want to be in Iraq. No, Bush wants to be in Iraq. You'll have to ask him why because the reasons he has stated so far have either been proven false (e.g., WMD) or to be lies (harboring extremists).

One thing I keep wondering about ... what is happening to Iraq's oil? Who is pumping it, who is selling it, who is reaping the profits. Can anyone answer that? My guess is a company whose name begins with "H" but frankly I cannot find any information.

Rev--

It's not important that they were Saudi's. Muslims are like Catholics in the respect that they many owe their allegences internationally, not to a nation. This is much stronger with Muslims. A slight to the Muslims of one country is a slight to all. Al Queda answers to no single country. And no Muslim country, save for Pakistan, is trying to reign in their fanatics. To the contrary-- they help them add to their fire by teaching hatred in the public schools.

So this is what we have to contend with. And if they won't reign in their extremists and keep them from exporting violence, then we have to ride in a do it ourselves. You think we want to be in Iraq? Heck no. It sucks. But the Islamic middle class of the Middle East is utterly irresponsible has abdicated their responsibility of their fellow citizens.
Look, I don't care if Muslims kill Muslims all day long-- it's what they're good at. But they better keep the violence within their borders or we're gonna come in and fix the situation.

prove me wrong, it's not hard.

the United States tree is being cut down for firewood and sold...

which is kind of stupid as it's a fruit tree and bears a new crop every year...

but you can't teach stupid people, you kill the cow you don't get milk every day you just get meat for a couple of dayz...

elite families + military_industrial_complex ='s stupid people killing the fricking cow

because _they_ stole from the Mafia...

and some of the United States landed, and _they both_

hold a grudge...it's a case of government policy being run by _families_

Don G.H.W. Bush and Don Corleone...

.

about what to do about North Korea,

would consist of talking to South Korea, China, Russia and Japan and saying:

"what do you want us to do?"

anything else would be presumptious...

but it looks like you're norman and "toshi" are trying to sway the conversation towards

"we have a _need_ to intercede,"

the United States isn't being run by oil hungry imperialists....

it isn't, that's news to me...

sounds like operatives trying to change the story....talk to the framing boyz...

_why are we in Iraq?_

because we were attacked? by Saudis

no Iraq connection.

we are not at war, we are occupying a country in the interests of controlling their oil....

right, talk to that, disprove me norman, come on, you're smarter than me....just show me..

.

that this statement:

"
So, you're saying if the U.S. goes isolationist, the Muslims will stop trying to kill us? They won't be back to take down more skyscrapers?
" by Toshi

is somewhat leading....

where's the proof that it wasn't CIA to begin with?

boneboy, that's where you're trying to take

that this statement:

"
So, you're saying if the U.S. goes isolationist, the Muslims will stop trying to kill us? They won't be back to take down more skyscrapers?
" by Toshi

is somewhat leading....

where's the proof that it wasn't CIA to begin with?

boneboy, that's where you're trying to take it isn't

that this statement:

"
So, you're saying if the U.S. goes isolationist, the Muslims will stop trying to kill us? They won't be back to take down more skyscrapers?
" by Toshi

is somewhat leading....

where's the proof that it wasn't CIA to begin with?

boneboy

Tashiro,

I was under the impression that the U.S.A., 'got into Iraq', because of WMDs.
Have I been misinformed again? And weren't those mad muslims that you referred to, mostly Saudi's?

In my opinion, most Americans need to take a course or two in cultural anthropology, because Americans really do not understand very much about the disparate people that inhabit the world. Frankly, I do not believe that many Americans even care about understanding cultural diversity.

However, understanding and respecting diversity will result in enormous dividends for the West, and go a long way toward helping to resolve geopolitical problems.

Garnering and appreciating accurate psychographic information would also be beneficial. Simply labeling people, and engaging in the name calling that we have witnessed in America for the past days, in order to dehumanize a foe, will not help to resolve problems with people who are culturally different.

I learned that a long time agom in religion. My former Bishop became frustrated with my tolerance of people of other faiths, not to mention my kindness toward people atheists and agnostics. We all have one thing in common, we share this planet.

In international business circles, many American businesspeople, before being sent off to do business with the Japanese for example, receive crash courses in Japanese culture, etiquette and customs. That's a good thing. Did you know that many American citizens laughed at the long-haired Elvis loving Japanese Prime Minister who visted America a few days ago?

I agree with then U.N. Ambassador Andrew Young who spoke at infamous Kent State University a couple of decades ago. He said, we cannot just keep killing people who share a difference of opinion.

Namron,

I would not be a 'holy man', if I did not pontificate. I would like to see either the United Nations empowered to act as an honest broker in the world to help resolve geopolitcal problems. Or, I would like to see a new International Organization created. That international organization would have the the power, ability and resources to engage in international diplomacy, or intervention.

And as the late Baghwan Shree Rajnesh of India once said, 'when the fruit is ripe, it will fall from the tree'.

Right now the U.S.A. tree is unripened!

trying to slip under the radar,,,

toshi sayz:

"
Rev--

We didn't get into Iraq until a bunch of renegade Muslims 9/11'd us.
"

and who were these "renegade muslims"?

Saudis and UAE boyz, trained in the United States...at the Georgia School of the Americas?

please, you smell like fish.

.

Rev,

Could you please enlighten me...

List the countries that are NOT rogue nations AND have the capability to enforce international decrees - such as Article 7 resolutions.

Please, just the list... no pontificating...

[PS I agree with you on Cuba - our stance against them is archaic]

Rev--

We didn't get into Iraq until a bunch of renegade Muslims 9/11'd us. This from the same lot that hit the Cole and previously took a shot at the WTC in '98. Muslims hit Britain, have conspired in Canada and have murdered in the name of Islam in the Netherlands.

So, you're saying if the U.S. goes isolationist, the Muslims will stop trying to kill us? They won't be back to take down more skyscrapers?

Well there appears to be one common denominator in this thread, everyone seems to agree that the U.S. is not the paragon of virtue that it pretends to be.

I already knew that, I simply thought that in the 21st century, some of us enlightened souls would want to do something about that. Listening to a few of you, it would appear that the 21st century won't be much different from the 20th, as far as America is concerned.

I am so naive!

And the only difference between
the U.S.A. and the rest of the world, according to some of you is that the U.S.A. is somehow better than the rest of the world, and therefore is perfectly justified in acting like a rogue nation. Well okay then, but can't Americans simply admit that we are also a rogue nation!

Okay Sully, let me try to answer your queries?

A) That would be an act of war, however, the DPRK, have not done that.
B) That would be an act of war, however, the DPRK, have not done that either.
C) As long as other countries have them, some ready to be fired, why not?
D) As long as other nations have nukes, some ready to be fired, why not?
E)See A & B
F) See A & B
G) Let Japan decide how to handle that.

Next!

In Vienna two weeks ago, some reporters explained to Mr. Bush, that many nations consider America to be the world's threat.

Why are people concerned about the American Superstate? Could it have anything to do with its threats, and subsequent follow-up to those threats made to Iraq?

What do you suppose the U.S.A. plans to do with all its usable nuclear weapons, use them for paper weights?

We are talking people folks, please do not allow our propaganda machine to dehumanize all of the men, women and children in Korea, just as they have done to all of their previous enemies.

The Rev

Sully--

I have reservations about a lot of those proposals. They vary from "wouldn't work" to "that's a lot of work for the chance of a positive outcome".

But my question is initial and continuing question is-- why does the U.S. have to do this? Why not the U.N.? Or leave it up to the China-Japan-ROK group.

the Rev wrote:
"With regard to threatening nukes, the specter of nuclear annihilation has hung over this entire planet, every since the day that America dropped the hydrogen bomb in Japan'and the Koreans did not live too far away. Aren't you being a bit disengenuous with regard to your last comment."

First, it was fission bombs dropped in Japan, not hydrogen (fusion) bombs. Fission bombs are much weaker (kilotons) compared with fusion bombs measured in megatons. I know, they were powerful enough, but no one has seen the distruction of a hydrogen bomb in a populated area.

As far as threatening nuclear annihilation, that is something we have never ignored. The Soviets were the first. Cuba was next. Both were dealt with in various ways to limit or eliminate the threat. Now NK not only has nukes thanks to Bush's negligence, but they have delivery systems to hit our allies and troops in the area and are building delivery systems that can hit the USA directly. More importantly, they have threatened to use them.

Having them and threatening to use them are two different things. We must respond to NK's threat to prevent their promise of a nuclear war, something they have stated, not us. To ignore the explicit threat would be a first in our history.

Let me give you some senarios and ask you how they should be handled:
A) NK successfully launches a ballistic missle which lands 600 miles off Washington state in the Pacific.
B) NK successfully launches a ballistic missle which lands in a remote part of Alaska.
C) NK tests a nuke above ground.
D) NK tests a nuke below ground.
E) NK tests short range missle launches from ships.
F) NK places ships with those short range missles within 200 miles of Los Angeles.
G) NK tests a short range missle that arcs over Japan, malfunctions and crashes in a Tokyo suburb killing many people.

Any of these senarios are possible in the near future. Each would be considered a crisis with a possible military response. To ignore NK is negligent. To not pressure China is ignoring the real problem. To hope for the best has always been Bush's favorite strategery. We cannot hope for the best again.

toshiro wrote:
"You keep saying "China". What's the approach? We have no pull with them. They only do what they want. Always have. They always want a 60/40 deal or more. So what's the angle then. Details, Sully. Give us details."

Sticks we can use on the Chinese:
-Military buildup in Taiwan and east china sea. Start an arms race and see whether the Chinese would rather do that or deal with NK instead.
-Tariffs on chinese textiles and maybe some other goods.
-Increase support for a free tibet.
-Make it hard for the chinese to purchase oil. Many way this can be done.
-Overtly support Japan on disputed waters and lands.
-Increase military presense in SK, Japan, and increase navy off NK and China. Maybe some increase spying of both.
-Decreased number of visas for Chinese working or going to school in the US.

Carrots we can offer the Chinese:
-Increased military contacts and cooperation.
-Provide access to the Space Station and provide specs for Chinese craft to dock.
-Offer to arbitrate disputes with Japan.
-Offer prefered costs on grain sales (this used to work well with the Soviets).

And these are just a few off the top of my head. To say that China just does what it wants and ignores the US is simply not true. They need the US to buy its goods. They need Japanese and US business to invest in China. They need peace and stability to focus on their civilian economy. They do not want to get into a military buildup against us. They do not want us to stop buying their goods. There is a lot we can do, but Bush cannot focus on more than one thing at a time. Maybe when Bush is out in three years we can start to rein in NK via China.

not to belabor a point,

but it's not partisan at all,

the complicit congress is made up republicans and democrats...and I know Kerry took a dive...

this is about a caste system controlling America's destiny, while pretending to be democratic....

Trans Afghanistan Pipleline Heist, followed by the acquisition of the 2nd Largest Oil reserves in the world...

how much is that when coupled with US, Saudi, Kuwiatt, Turkey, Egypt, Mexico, Afghanistan/CaspianSea?

please,

sure it's _all_ about the _evil_ leaders...

what is this?

appealing to cracker mentallity, how is that helping the citizenship?

so nice to see you speaking honestly.

I used to talk to mothers that asked me how to best help their daughters to be strong mothers, with good families...

I told them, "you can not tell your children to be something that you are not,"

"children look at what their parents are doing, not what they are saying....you have to model it..."

the point is this:

what is the United States Government modeling?

piracy, imperialism, feudalism....

those other countries already have that...

how about modeling democracy?

homophobia? is that a family value?

occupying another country to steal it's oil, while crying "we're here to give you democracy!"

is that what the soldiers over there are saying?

or are they saying, "You bombed our homelunt!! NOW, we vill hurt you, mak schnell"

the point is, you can't have the world move into a better place with this group of bs artists, including you

covering that up...

the woman that I was talking to had an abusive husband, her child would marry an abusive man if she didn't model the kind of behaviour that that child needed.....a strong woman saying no to abusive male behavior....

not rationalizing that bulls hit....

we need to arrest cheyney, rumsfeld, rice and bush and send them to appear befor e the hague...

not talk about north korea,

after they get arrested, then we can talk about north korea,

because we'll be a different country by then...

.

what are you most sensitive about?

I believe that was the inspiration for the name. I was born in 1968. Mom is Japanese. They wanted to honer that side of the family, hence the name. My brother's online handle is Isamu. Yep, that his middle name. Anything else you'd like to disparge while you're driving through?

I think you use the term "peope of N Korea" without really identifying whom is at the helm of the decision making process.

"We" do not hate the N Koreans... "We" do not hate the Cubans.

It is the leaderships of these countries we have problems with.

Kim Jong IL starves his people to what end? Castro fomented revolution all over Africa and S America. And, yes, so did we.

So why are we the only one's who must be more culturally sensitive?

I don't recall the Eastern Europeans thanking the Cubans or N Koreans when the USSR fell. I don't see them supporting them now.

We can go isolationist if that is what you want - many people do. But if you want us involved, then you must realize that certain leaderships do not act in the best interest of their population. I am sure you include W in that group. Fine. We live in a democracy and in a few years he will be gone. Will Kim Jong Il or Castro?

America is the #1 destination for all emmigrants. There are good reasons they are not beating down the door to Iran, Cuba, or N Korea. If that does not tell you how we are viewed around the world, nothing will.

and my middle name is Mifune

'hello',

It is my name. Middle name. I like it and find it makes a good internet 'handle'.

Peace out.

drive by, I can do more with two sentences than you can with two posts.

you're not even asian

cogency, is what is needed not pleasing each other...

for reference, there have always been two United States...

revolutionaries and people with money that allowed the revolution to take place because it made them richer....

Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Paine are examples of Revolutionaries

Adams, William Penn...more like landed royalty..

elements of money have been buried within or controlling this "democracy," since the beginning....

the struggle for womens rights, slavery, labor unions, childrens rights, labor rights....have been on going trying to make the monied as responsible to us as we were to them...

we are about to either slip under and become serfs again, or expose the truth and hold them accountable...

it's up to you,

but I can assure you that if the American people knew that their children were being sent overseas to steal oil from some poor people in Iraq...

it would get real ugly, real quick,

they _still think<" it's about patriotism...

and toshiro,

why use that name when you're not?

Rev-

I'm 'toshiro'. I don't know who that other guy is. Some driveby dude. Check the bylines before responding.

As far as what you've said. "Pipe dream" is all I can say. Even if the U.S. were to embrace what you say, we'd be taken for suckers like Jimmy Carter in Las Vegas!

Internationl politics is about as cutthroat as you can get. Everybody talks from the moral highground, but acts in their own interests. We'd be silly not to do the same. But we're not all bad, so don't be so quick to paint us as murderers and killers. You think Saddam would have shown similar restraint as we did for those who'd disagree with him? If he had our power? The U.S. has restraint. Otherwise 100 million Middle Easterners would be dead. We have that much power. We could take down Iran even as we speak. It only took 30,000 men to take down Iraq. The other 200,000 are there trying to make the democracy thing work.

I agree with you that "everyone wants to get paid". What can be done? It's human nature. Better to acknowledge the deficiencies and deal with them than pretend they can be cured. We do our best, that's all we can do.

And now, Kim of Pyongpyang wants to get paid. What should we do?

Sully,

You may be right, however, as I recall it, Americans had tired of Cuba, long before the missles were discovered there. And you might be surprised to find out that many Americans do not hate the Cubans at all. Those Americans do not buy into American propaganda nonsense!

American disdain for the Cubans was apparent, when Americans could no longer have their way on the island, you know girls, golfing, Cuba cigars. Cuba's version of The Shah of Iran, supported by the U.S.A., had been tossed from power.

With regard to threatening nukes, the specter of nuclear annihilation has hung over this entire planet, every since the day that America dropped the hydrogen bomb in Japan'and the Koreans did not live too far away. Aren't you being a bit disengenuous with regard to your last comment.

For Gawd's Sake...

Okay, I got my head out of my butt. Now what in the world are you talking about?

I have always said that the misguided thrust of most of the world, has to do with consumerism. Perhaps you misunderstood what I was trying to explain to Mr. Toshiro.

The Bible says that the Love of Money Is The Root Of All Evil. The world has witnessed the prosperity of the United States, and many nations and people want to get in on it. They want aid, trade, markets, credits, finance....!

And in order to become a player, many nations, consider the G8 that will meet next week in Russia, will look the other way in order to 'get paid'.

How many nations, including Russia, will bring up the issue of the U.S. invasion of Iraq during the G8 Summit? But N. Korea is already on the agenda.

And I have offered my solution several times, perhaps you just joined the blog.

Where did I miss you...I am corn-fused!

And with respect to the Government, I must not be so naiive, or why have they had me in to speak! Have they 'head', get it, 'head' you to come in to speak yet?

Perhaps they will have you to come in and speak on heads and butts(-:

Lawdy hav mercy!

Sully-

Clinton didn't do anything to convince China to stop either. Nobody can.

You keep saying "China". What's the approach? We have no pull with them. They only do what they want. Always have. They always want a 60/40 deal or more. So what's the angle then. Details, Sully. Give us details.

communism different from

North Korean communism?

it's not about communism, it was about rich people having their properties taken away,

now it's about leveraging position to control the world economies....

get with it.

.

about Cuba that very few talk about...

there was a lot of money lost when Communism took over, some of it mob money

it's not _all_ about patriotism,

when you're dealing with the _current_ government, you're talking about money...

.

it has _exactly_ NOTHING to do with North Korea...

it is simply proof to the world, FOR THIS ADMINISTRATION AND COMPLICIT CONGRESS, that PNAC is correct and that pre emptive strikes are needed....

that's what it's all about, talking up a minor incident to have it be a big deal

nothing proves to the world that you're dealing with some group that is dangerous, than being attacked...after you've provoked them...

the little dumb a s s running North Korea is simply saying

"pay attention to me, I want to play too"

look at his hair....it says everything you need to know...

.

The Rev wrote:
"It seems to me that Americans hate the N. Koreans, just as they hate the Cubans, given their communist leanings, and for no other reason. Am I wrong?"

Both have threatened us with nuclear annihilation. That might have something to do with it.

toshiro wrote:
"China doesn't need the U.S. They pirate our goods, disrespect international law. Nothing we do has convinced them to stop. What makes you think that?"

Nothing BUSH has done has convinced them to stop. There is a lot this government can do. Tariffs, trade sanctions, economic pressure. Bush is simply too inept. He places cronies in positions where intelligence and ability are needed. You are right, there is nothing Bush can do.

Toshiro continues:
"But you seem to be concerned -- what do you think would resolve the North Korean situation?"

First we need to understand that the NK is a criminal government. They engage in illegal activity to bring in cash. They counterfit money. They deal in drugs. They extort other countries into providing food and fuel, not for the people, but for the armed forces. This is a criminal organization and dealing with them can only be done in terms of dealing with a criminal. In other words, an outcome that does not benefit the NK government and Kim in particular is not going to happen.

So what to do? In a word: China. They prop up the NK with economic and military funding. They were the ones who caused the allies to stop fighting the NK which would have prevented the NK from ever existing. The NK is a creation of China's and China needs to do something about what they created. China can be dealt with but they will need to be moved to do so. They feel obligated to the NK. The do not want to see the Koreas united under the SK flag. We need to work with them to not replace a communist NK, but to replace Kim and his crazy buddies with a true communist government, one that will not take the military path Kim and his father chose. Carrots and sticks can be used to move the Chinese in this direction. I believe they like seeing their dog the NK nip at the US and Japan. They need to understand their dog is now considered a threat and must be brought under control or both China and the NK will face mounting consequences.

You however feel that the NK is not a threat. That may be true for the US, but US interests extend beyond its borders. Japan is now directly threatened by the NK. The SK can't say much with a million NK troops on the border and well within range of the NKs successfully tested missles. If the NK attacks Japan we will get involved because American troops are stationed there if for no other reason. Same if it attacks SK. That is enough for us to take action now, with China, to demand it put a stop Kim's madness, which was Made In China.

reverend,

get your head out of your but,

the Government doesn't speak for America, and they weren't elected by the people...

the system is set up so that wealthy people with private interests are served not the people....

you've never worked for the government, but I can tell you that over 50% of each congressional budget goes to DEFENSE...

it's about the Money REVEREND, not about justice...

if it were about justice these people would be in jail...

blathering about past injustices is nice, but it's like talking about the paint job on the house while the house is on fire...

other things take priority...

first things first, you address what is radically wrong with this administration and fix what is wrong with rich people running the world as the next iterations, using this group as _the_ example...

no one wants to hear complaints without solution...

if you were working for a company with that mindset you'd be fired..

you never come to a meeting with just the problem, you have to have the solution too...

framing...

the "Americans," don't give a rats a ss about North Korea....

you might as well be talking about Zaire.

the "Americans" give a s hit about someone appearing to threaten them, as they haven't moved out of the

hatfields 'n mcCoys mindset...

hill billy trash excited about defending ?honor?

you guys are like a bunch of six year olds that are hungry...

no focus

you know if the

president is keeping you scared about starting fires that you have to put out...

take the lighter out of his hand, and lock him up.

.

quit being distracted.

.

Namron,

If you are correct, who should the people of the Democrat People's Republic of Korea answer to, the United States Federation?

I still cannot see for the life of me what the people of N. Korea have done to the Americans. I visited what I felt was the most impressive memorial on the Capitol mall, several years ago, the Korean War Memorial. Why are the voices of the people in South Korea so muted?

It seems to me that Americans hate the N. Koreans, just as they hate the Cubans, given their communist leanings, and for no other reason. Am I wrong?

I can recall just a year or so ago when citizens of the House of Kuwait, that America fought for just over a decade ago, said that America needs to learn to mind its own business. I can recall Japan a couple of years ago saying that America needs to mind its own business.

American needs to learn to respect cultural differences, God knows that America has little respect for any nation's borders.

I respect North Korea's right to be different!

China doesn't need the U.S. They pirate our goods, disrespect international law. Nothing we do has convinced them to stop. What makes you think that?

"I'm creating a missle crisis? Have you heard this administration for the past month talking about those missles? If anyone is creating a missle crisis today its Bush! But Japan and SK are under missle threat, a threat that can possibly carry the nukes Bush ignored being developed over the last few years."

Why is it up to Bush? Where is the U.N. and international community on this one?

What do you think we can really do about this? NK is as deceptive as they get. We don't know their motivation. China won't do anything. Have you read the South Korean papers -- they could care less about the launches. They're even a lot of sympathy for NK from ROK! Japan is "somewhat upset", but their response barely measures above a shrug. And it's clear that no one in the U.N. is going to act on a complaint from Japan. Hey-- if no one else is going to sweat it, why should we? After all, their missles can't touch us now and for some time to come.

But you seem to be concerned -- what do you think would resolve the North Korean situation?

Toshiro said,

Every country has extremists, but there don't happen to be independent U.S. citizens who load up with hardware and go bombing Muslim countries.

I say the following:

America is a Representative Democracy. Americans citizens do not have to use hardware to go and bomb other countries, they simply elect people who will do so in their stead. That is why George Bush was elected, did you forget? George Bush reflects the thinking of too many misguided Americans, in my opinion, who are too busy making money to be bothered with the trivial needs and wants of some marginalized groups of people.

Perhaps you are too young to remember, however, this nation began with thievery, murder and genocide. Trying to eviscerate the spirit of the past from the current American landscape, has been a monumental challenge; please don't encourage it.

And you are wrong, many Americans load up their hardware everyday to use against their fellow-citizens; and more than any other nation on the face of this planet, I might add.

Truth must speak to power. It cannot be the other way around, i.e., 'might makes right'.

America created its enemies in the Middle East, and in other places around the world. Invading countries, taking down their leaders, and installing America's choice as a leader has shown the world America's true colors.

Take the Shah of Iran for example, in 1953, many in Iran witnessed first-hand, the cold-hearted hegemony of the U.S.A. and its totalitarian practices. Are you saying that a nation that has always railed against totalitarianism, has the right to act in a totalitarian fashion itself? And are you saying that when people in other countries resist American hegemony, that America has the right to blow them up?

Your argument for categorical determinism is wrong, and I do not agree with your moral relativism argument either. It is not okay for one country to act in a certain manner, simply because other nations are doing the same thing.

Besides, America purports to believe in certain ideals and values, the same ideals and values that you have ignored in your argument. If we are going to simply throw our creeds, along with our morals out of the window, then we will have nothing left but chaos, and every person and nation will be free to employ his own form of prairie justice, just as the U.S.A. does outside of its borders.

If we buy into your reasoning, Tito, Hitler, Idi..., did nothing wrong!

I pray that you will never ascend to a position of influence, I am afraid, however, that you already have done so!

The Rev

toshiro wrote:
"1. Nobody messes with China"

Maybe its time to with respect to their inaction with the NK. China need the US. Maybe they need to be reminded of that.

"2. NK can't hurt us, even remotely, for a decade or more -- no need to artificially create a Cuban Missle Crisis you cherish so dearly."

I'm creating a missle crisis? Have you heard this administration for the past month talking about those missles? If anyone is creating a missle crisis today its Bush! But Japan and SK are under missle threat, a threat that can possibly carry the nukes Bush ignored being developed over the last few years.

"3. You are as delusional as Kim when it comes to your understanding of Bush's pre-emptive tendencies. If this were true, Iran would be under the American flag and a U.S. armada would be off the coast of Korea."

Bush has already threatened Iran with military action. His troops bogged down in Iraq is a major reason he is acting in a way that appears reasonable. Bush sent ships to the coast of NK last week.

"JFK and Bush are both astute presidents. Both are dealing with nasty situations. You're only seeing differences between the two due to your extreme bias."

JFK was a great president. Bush is an idiot. History will show both are true.

1. Nobody messes with China

2. NK can't hurt us, even remotely, for a decade or more -- no need to artificially create a Cuban Missle Crisis you cherish so dearly.

3. You are as delusional as Kim when it comes to your understanding of Bush's pre-emptive tendencies. If this were true, Iran would be under the American flag and a U.S. armada would be off the coast of Korea.

JFK and Bush are both astute presidents. Both are dealing with nasty situations. You're only seeing differences between the two due to your extreme bias.

toshiro wrote:
"America is no more bloodthirsty than any other nation. In fact we're a lot less so. But if someone wants to come and get us, we're not just going to sit around and take it. The Muslims want action, so we'll give it to them."

Then please explain why we are in Iraq? They did not attack us. In fact, those who did are alive and well, sending videos taunting the US almost weekly. They forment hatred and give guidance to those trying to do us harm. Yet Bush is in Iraq after taking forces AWAY from Afganistan. Now the Taliban are resurging. Do you agree Bush is off track here? If not, how can you justify attacking a country that killed NO American and pulled forces away from hunting down the Taliban and Al Qaida?

toshiro wrote:
"But don't get too nostalgic over JFK. He had us on the brink of annihilation. If Bush were in the midst of a Cuban Missle Crisis and handled it with brinkmanship, you Dems would be FREAKING OUT."

And rightly so. JFK was smart, consulted with experts in the military and other areas. Bush consults only his inner circle and God, then hopes for the best. If missles appeared in Cuba today, Bush would not use brinkmanship, he would attack preemptively with horrible results. Bush's ability to manage anything has been proven over and over again to be the ability of a high school sophomore who thinks he knows everything and blames everyone else for his failings. Now, thanks to his inability to manage NK, they have nukes. They have missles that can attack our allies and are developing missles that can attack us. He ignores China, as though they are not pulling the NKs strings as the Soviets pulled Cuba's. He will not talk directly to NK even though they are threatening us directly. He will not pressure China as they sit back and watch approvingly as their NK running dog points missles at us. Bush's lack of ability to manage anything properly has been and will be his legacy to the detriment of us all.

Through all the comments on here, I am mildly shocked to see that none of them deal with the way the people of N Korea live.

We often hear that if we had no military infrastructure we could spend x billions of dollars on etc......

N Korea cannot even feed its own people. Here is a despot that would rather spend money on a "spruce goose" of a missile instead of feeding its own people!

All N Korea has had to ever do is say "We are standing down our armed forces. We are open to trade and normalizing realtions."

That would end all of this posturing and military spending and save thousands and thousands of N Koreans from starvation.

But what was the choise they voluntarily made? To starve their people so that they could build Nuclear capabilities and a missile that is more of a danger to the whaling population than to the USA.

S Korea for decades had tried to normalize relations with N Korea - given them billions of dollars in aid.

Everyone makes decisions.

Why is it that no one is holding N Korea's leaders accountable for their decisions that have made their country the most impoverished one on the continent?

This is not of America's making. This is not the UN's making.

This debacle was/is made by the leadership of N Korea and it is they alone who have to answer for it.

Rev/Jaxas,

You are thinking that there's a right and wrong in these (international) affairs. There's only right and wrong from the view of the country in question. We're just as wrong as the Muslims as NK as France etc. But we're also just as right. It's just Macciavelli at work. The French could care less if Japan gets nuked by NK-- one less country to compete with. Likewise, it gives China an opportunity to take out Taiwan while everyone is looking the other way. Every country has their agenda. We're no exception. And like those others, we have a right to ours.

Every country has extremists, but there don't happen to be independent U.S. citizens who load up with hardware and go bombing Muslim countries. If there were, we'd reign them in. There are plenty of people who oppose abortion in this country, but bombers of clinics still go to jail.

Muslim countries do not reign in their fanatics. It is all to common for mainstream textbooks, even in Saudi Arabia, to preach hate about the West. This is UNACCEPTABLE. Especially since, using the vehicle of Islam, those countries are able to manufacture suicide bombers. UNETHICAL and UNACCEPTABLE. They use WOMEN and KIDS as shields in battle-- BARBARIC. Since they have us in their crosshairs we have no choice but to accelerate the change of their culture faster than it might already be occurring. It won't be pretty, but they're forcing our hand.

America is no more bloodthirsty than any other nation. In fact we're a lot less so. But if someone wants to come and get us, we're not just going to sit around and take it. The Muslims want action, so we'll give it to them.

With NK, I think we can work with them. They don't want a piece of us the way the Muslims do. And we have time because they can't deliver a nuke upon us at this time. As William Arkin said, we're doing just that. So where's the bloodthirsty American response?

The George Bush Center For Intelligence

This signs sits in front of the C.I.A. Headquarters in Virginia. It was named after our President's dad. On several occasions, when I visit Mclean Virginia, and the C.I.A., I cannot help but smile each time I read what is written on that sign.

Although Mr. Arkin is not using intelligence in the same context as I am using it, folks, America cannot use, what it does not have possess, intelligence.

Despite the warmongers like Toshiro and others, if America had any intelligence at all, America would understand that the people of both the middle and near-East are simply crying out for what Americans hold so dear, autonomy, equity, justice, access to markets and freedom.

Unfortunately, some have given up on acquiring any of these, through peaceful diplomacy. Instead a small minority of the same, are only too willing to emulate the actions and behaviors of the United States.

And what do Americans call these people who simply want what all Americans apparently desire and want for themselves and their loved ones? How about insurgents, lunatics, r' heads, mad-men, and terrorists. Some Americans have even boasted over the past few days, how that America should simply, turn places like Korea into parking lots.

I often wonder about the 'natural born killers' in the U.S.A., the Land of the Free and the Home of the Depraved! I know that if Adolf Hitler could only hear some of you today, that he would feel vindicated, given the actions that he took, that are no different from those that some of you are proposing today.

I wonder what the late King George of England called the American Colonial Freedom Fighters, who were insisting on their freedoms, just as 21st century people in the middle and near-East are doing today? Perhaps he called them traitors, lunatics, insurgents, peasants, mad-men, terrorists, or men of the lowest-estate?

American can have peace with the world, and without a single bullet being fired. However, some of you, all that you can conceptualize is to eliminate the opposition, and by whatever means is necessary. And some of the opposition, they think just like you have taught them!

Toshiro, 30-50 years from now the world will probably look back on this era and wonder what in hell were the Americans thinking. They will remember George W. Bush as probably one of the most brain cell deficient Presidents America ever had.

History is replete with failed empires who have attempted to civilize the world by force as you so jingoistically suggested. You must be smoking some alien weed if you really believe that this ragtag crop of run-of-the-mill terrorist bumpkins is any different from terrorists throughout history.

The war on terror is a farce. One need not be schooled in the complexities of Quantum Physics to apprehend that the war on terror is a fictional appellation designed to con the world into believeing that we are engaged in yet another cold war clash of civilizations. Anyone who believes that a loose collection of radical fundamentalist oddballs and malcontents represents in any sense a "civilization" and is at war with us to impose their system on the world is well beyonbd the loss of a few brain cells.

Look. I am told in thepages of this very news paper this morning that our military has been infested with neonazis who want to get professional military training for an expected future race war between Aryan supremacists and all other races. Why have we not declared war on them as well?

At some point, people have to begin exercising that little melon sized collection of not in their heads and begin reasoning out that the war on terror is a political term that meets the partisan needs of a handful of neocon zealots in this country who have been pining for a new cold war against a new monolith enemy since the Soviet empire disintegrated.

Trust me on this. The fall of the Soviet Union was an aoccasion of great unhappiness and angst not for liberals, but rather for neoconservatives who must have such an enemy for their political survival.

Toshiro

And what do you believe in, murder and Transmigration of the Spirit?

If it is the latter, I am certain that in the next life you will come back as an American Nuclear Warhead instead of a flea.

To say that Muslims don't like the West is a blatant lie. Granted there are some radical Muslims who exist, just as we have radical Americans who want to do away with the, I've heard so far, 'rag heads, and sand "N" word pluraled, in the middle-east.

What gives you the right to say that Bush had the right to strike at the heart...? What gives some people the right to believe that they should force their ideology upon someone else?

I would conclude, based upon your servile comments, that America also had the right to drop hydrogen bombs upon the innocent people of Japan. Were you so flippant about that? Were you singing the song then, "You Dropped The Bomb On Me, Baby...?"

Why don't you go back into mothballs, for there are some of us who want to create an enlightened and peaceful world, where civil discourse will take the place of murder. And I am certain that neither you, George Bush, or those of his ilk will fit in. Shame on you!

The Rev

Hmmm. Mr. Soorma, the bombs weren't ready until July of 1945, and Germany had surrendered in May.

Now if you are saying that we should have evacuated our men from the Ruhr and nuked it just to show the Germans that we were serious, that's one thing. But the idea that the Germans would have excaped that scourge if they'd still been fighting in August is silly.

Missles in Cuba could take out US cities. That was Soviet technology which was solid vs NK technology which sucks. Kennedy had a real crisis and handled it well. But don't get too nostalgic over JFK. He had us on the brink of annihilation. If Bush were in the midst of a Cuban Missle Crisis and handled it with brinkmanship, you Dems would be FREAKING OUT.

But the bottom line is that we have time w/NK. Also, detente can work w/NK because they're communist. They don't believe in the afterlife, so what they have now is all they got. Self annihilation gets them nothing, so even if they have nukes, we can work with them, just like we did with the USSR. But the Muslims are a whole different ballgame. They believe that 72 virgins await them on the other side. Self annihilation is nothing to them. The Middle Eastern culture is violent and barbaric. So muslims with nukes is a bad idea. Bush was right to take the opportunity to strike into the heart of the Middle East and try to establish a democracy. Changing/Opening up Middle Eastern muslim culture is our only chance to avoid a suitcase bomb going off in a US city in the future -- or even more likely a missle bound nuke hitting Tel Aviv and drawing us into a bloody war against the likes of Iran. The Middle Eastern govs have a way of making NK's Kim look sane...

So it's democracy or turning them to glass. Muslims don't like the West, they don't even like Dems, their potential saviors. And they won't do the smart thing of cutting off their satellite dishes and internet access so they can stay ignorant of what's going on in the world. So their only recorse is to try to off us. They'll never change unless we force it upon them. And it'll be painful. Many of them will have to die. Their middle class is going to have to get off their duffs and get active, show strength and leadership. But it's the only way. Middle Eastern culture is going to change one way or another. These insurgent activities are just a guage of this painful growth. The world will thank Bush in 30-50 years.

Doesn't anybody at the Post edit op-ed submissions? Arkin's writing is sloppy -- with typos, questions that don't have question marks, unintelligible phrasing. Can anybody tell me what this means?:

"the natural question is: Did we do enough to expose North Korea's plans to avert launches, thereby undermining its element of surprise and its reason to launch in the first place to create a crisis?"

To me, the "natural question" is: What the heck is he trying to say?

Is North Korea planning to avert launches? Why would that be a problem?
Who's averting and undermining what, where? Gosh, I hope we didn't create a crisis in order to undermine NK's plans NOT to launch! But we'd certainly have the element of surprise with us if we did!

toshiro wrote:
"Bush should let them all spin in the wind. Until NK becomes an actual threat to the US, we don't need to confront him directly.
On a last note, once the NK threat goes kinetic, it's gonna increase the conversion rate of Blue state West Coasters from Dem to Repub. Or will they have to wait until they get nuked?"

First you say Bush should ignore the NK but once it goes "kenetic" people will run to the republicans, the ones who you say are right to ignore the problem today? Read up on the 1962 Cuban missle crisis and how it was handled by a democratic administration, then look and see what wars were fought and won by democratic administrations versus republican. The difference is democrats want to protect America while republicans want to protect the profits of their friends. Which would you rather have lead us into a war and which would you trust to prevent a situation from going "kenetic"?

Mill_of_Mn wrote:
"Since when did the US begin to tremble at the likes of North Korea or Iran?"

It is because we have an administration that likes to keep Americans in fear of every threat so they can appear to be a wartime administration, with all the violations of law and the constitution that Congress will allow.

The answer to NK and its provocations, which are more a threat to our east asian allies then ourselves, is to pressure China. China can pull the NK's strings at will. We need to notify China that we see the NK's threat as a Chinese threat. They armed the NK. They support it economically. They protect it militarily. If China wants to have good relations with the US, they must keep the NK on its leash, tight. We have a lot of pull with China. We can slap trade sanctions, tariffs, and bring our military into the region.

John Kennedy knew that the missle threat from Cuba in 1962 was not a Cuban threat but a Soviet threat. The missle threat from NK is not a NK threat but a Chinese threat. Until that is understood nothing this administration does with the NK will matter.

If only Bush were a real president and leader like Kennedy...

administration is being so transparent in their greed..

.

you know like a star trek phaser, light-beam conductor of laser-phasing-pulse-style....we don't need no missles...

and we have interceptors capable of flying at mach 11 right

right?

bruce you sound a little better tonight,

and falafel is what you get when you grind up NJ boys and fry them with polenta...

cheez boy, nada bit.

.

Since when did the US begin to tremble at the likes of North Korea or Iran?

What chickenhawk thinks these folks present a threat to the US? Where were these chickenhawks when we stood down the Soviet Union, someone who posed an actual danger to our country?

It beggars the imagination to think we're supposed to hand-wring over a country that doesn't have an operational missle .... when we could turn that country into radioactive glass if they attacked us or anyone we care about ...

gutless b-stards running our country are cranking up the fear coefficient going into Fall elections again ....

anyone really worried that the North Koreans will launch first against the US?
Take out Seattle, or LA? then what happens folks? get real ....

I think Bush is doing the smart play. NK can't hit us directly and won't be able to for some time. But they could hit Japan, so maybe it'll make Japan less apathetic about responding to the 'Axis of Evil' types and leaving it all to the U.S.

The other interesting and somewhat predicatable thing is that many in South Korea are sympathetic to NK. They figure if Kim were really psycho, he would've wiped out ROK already. But he hasn't, so they're safe, right? But maybe Japan isn't safe. But why should ROK care about Japan-- they're a bunch of bastards who raped Korea and Manchuria for resources in WWII.

And the Chinese are being the Chinese. But is this the guy they really want on their side?

Bush should let them all spin in the wind. Until NK becomes an actual threat to the US, we don't need to confront him directly.

On a last note, once the NK threat goes kinetic, it's gonna increase the conversion rate of Blue state West Coasters from Dem to Repub. Or will they have to wait until they get nuked?

in you're article you wrote:

"Missile-defense geeks will argue about what interceptors were operational and detractors will argue that the technology just isn't there yet."

if the kinetic energy warheads are replaced by small nulear devices, then the interceptors, which can get very close, can take out the incoming warhead and all nearby decoys.

this has been known for years. that's how the current interceptor system will work.

I suspect the designers know all this.

no one can say that exploding a small nuke at a much larger incoming nuke for self defense is irresponsible.

the ke interceptor approach is very difficult but we can already get close. so forget the ke impact and detonete a small 1 or 2 kiloton nuke and take out all the rvs, real and decoy.

I simply don't understand the hysteria over North Korea and Iran. It makes no sense...unless, the real objective is something other than defending ourselves from these powerful and destructive nations.

Failure to negotiate and talk directly with either country is a sign of weakness, cowardice, and lack of resolve. It is not a sign that we ( U.S. ) are a confident, secure nation. Furthermore, if we _did_ negotiate with either country, we would expose our ignorance of what technology they actually possess and what their intentions actually are.

The main error of the Bush administration:

"If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle." --The Art of War ( Sun Tzu )

Thank you Namron,

Even President Clinton, in my opinion, erroneously, followed policy guidelines that were set before he became the nation's President.

I still cannot believe that America's antiquated policy towards Cuba still exists. It would appear to me that there isn't anyone in Washington now, who has the hutzpah, to stand up and say, it is time to review our outdated and antiquated policies and to make necessary changes.

America needs to make those changes that will result in America being seen as a robust, relevant 21st century cutting-edge nation, instead of a nation that is simply to be feared.

America needs to reshape itself so that other people and nations around the world, will view America as a nation that truly believes that all human beings are endowed with certain rights by their creator.

The world is dynamic, and we are all witnesses to the dynamism of emerging nations like China, and many of the other, formerly, underdeveloped third world nations, who are finding their place in God's creation. The world is simply a different place, than the world that we knew just fifty years ago.

The old outdated ideas of the past, where America dominated the world for a brief period, will have to be put to bed. For the world will no longer be controlled by some distant threatening Superstate.

For simply put, many nations and people of the world, that America labels as terrorists and malcontents, are simply crying out, to no avail, for equity and justice.

Isn't that what America claims to believe in itself? Then why is America working so hard to deprive other nations and people of what it so strongly holds dear, itself, freedom, and the right to self-determinaiton?

Simply changing parties in the White House, Congress and the Supreme Court, will not make things much better. America's Foreign Policy, must be updated.

And that will only happen when America becomes transparent enough to take a hard and long look at the way that America operated in, what should be the past!

I wish to apologize for the several errors in the last missive sent earlier. I should have excercised some caution- and done some proof reading- but I was heading off to the 'fridge- to grab another brew- and hit "send".

Again apologies to all- especially the 70+ virgins :)

Rev,

First.... the piece you wrote earlier in another forum was brilliant - truly.

Second.... W, so far as we know, has not thought about attacking N Korea. Remember W's first foreign policy challenge? It was early in his first term when a US Spy plane landed in China... he handled that through diplomatic channels. Why would N Korea be any different? They have demonstrated that they really cannot do any harm to anyone but their own people.

AND.... if you read a history of B Clinton's presidency.... you will see that Bill WAS considering attacking N Korea at one point... it was a very real possibility.... it was called off.... So don't go thinking that W is the first PResident to consider military action against N Korea, because he is not...

R Falafel chips kinda like potato chips? Are they like french fries without the sauce? Or are they more like what is going to running out of Saddam's, Osama's, and Al Zwahiri's bung holes- when they are hanging from a tribunal's noose. By the way? How long is eternity- and subsequently- how long do 70+ virgins last? Are they reusable- or do they poof after they are used? If so- is there a rationing plan for the last few virgins- over the few billion years?

Are they allowed to wash up?

I was unimpressed with this article- the consistent misuse of the word "maximum". The first time it should have been "maximize"- ('Why not announce from the podium precisely what the U.S. knows to maximum advantage in diplomacy?') the second time- was redundant and most likely gramatically incorrect as well.

I wish to suggest that Mr Soorma's credibility was equally diminished- when referring to the fact that America didn't use the "bomb" on Germany (it wasn't ready yet) and that this fact somehow inferred an ethnic or racial agenda on the part of the Americans who were essentially fighting two wars simultaneously.

And to the REV- if you truly consider yourself a representative and counselor of the God your name sake implies- I have to agree with you- that Young George- if not so currently distracted by our current miltary endeavors and committments- would definately have had a more serious response to the missile launches. But please note- ILL Jong- would not have had the temerity either- he is just another oppotunistic infection- our own personal Asian HIV.

for president would be Colin Powell and Hillary Clinton as vice president.

Condeleeza

is a tool,

use it and I'll use you....like a hoori.

you're right, and you're also a racist with a racist agendae,

want to talk about it?

I'll be eating you like falafel chips, otey bu=twheat?

it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what is going on....

the subtrefuge obscuring it, takes a lot of rocket scientists...or bs artists...complicit congress

.

president is keeping you scared about starting fires that you have to put out...

take the lighter out of his hand, and lock him up.

.

quit being distracted.

.

I've got a question for you.

Do you think this administration is playing at controlling the commodities market?

Do you think that it could do that?

Do you think that this administration would use what ever it took to make itself richer, without worrying about what it did to the people or the United States or the World?

what does that make you for supporting them?

.

John, where are you? you sniveling little coward.

double the tax rate on vehicles that get less than 35 miles to the gallon....

grant citizens a certain level of consumption at a national rate, tax more than that consumption at a greater level to go towards infrastructure and alternative energy programs...

IF _this_ were wartime, and it is an energy war, make no mistake

we would have imposed sanctions on ourselves to make sure that we didn't suffer economic harm....

what we're doing is filling other peoples bank accounts while being distracted by their

AWR ON ERtror show...

.

want to talk?

I'll be eating your kittens for lunch.

.

about Iran would be this...

IF we didn't wan them trying to manufacture an Nukeuleer weepon

why did we give them plans for one?

that 's the facts jack.........say otherwise you ll be wearing your pants on you head.

.

another poster said:

"
The U.S.A. is too often motivated only by its own interests, and rarely is the U.S.A. interested in the Rule of Law.
"

I replied, as follows

you speak as_if what is going on is the "will of the people."

or the spirit of the United States of America

how is the will of a few rich guys that foist a bulls hit campaign to make themselves richer upon_the_world, the will of a nation...

you're in the vicinity, but missing the mark..

.

we are _ALL_ victims of the current bush administration and complicit congress....

you think Kerry didn't throw it in 2004?

please.

how hard is it to call a fool a fool and prove it? unpatriotic? in the light of why we're in Iraq?

why are we in Iraq?

to make people that control the worlds oil supply richer...

proof: no nation that is going to war leaves it's country undefended

proof2: oil is not being seen as a non renewable resource, and thus a replacement found....if a replacement were found, people that have hedged their future on oil, would become paupers, and useless as power centers, immediately and would cease to affect nations....

oil is being made more important than it has to be,

the hunt brothers of TEXAS, put together a scheme in the 70's to corner the worlds supply of silver and drive the price to record hieghts....

they did time for it, so should your president, cheyney, rice and rumsfeld...

.

another poster said:

"
The U.S.A. is too often motivated only by its own interests, and rarely is the U.S.A. interested in the Rule of Law.
"

my reply follows,

you speak as_if what is going on is the "will of the people."

or the spirit of the United States of America

how is the will of a few rich guys that foist a bulls hit campaign to make themselves richer upon_the_world, the will of a nation...

you're in the vicinity, but missing the mark..

.

we are _ALL_ victims of the current bush administration and complicit congress....

you think Kerry didn't throw it in 2004?

please.

how hard is it to call a fool a fool and prove it? unpatriotic? in the light of why we're in Iraq?

why are we in Iraq?

to make people that control the worlds oil supply richer...

proof: no nation that is going to war leaves it's country undefended

proof2: oil is not being seen as a non renewable resource, and thus a replacement found....if a replacement were found, people that have hedged their future on oil, would become paupers, and useless as power centers, immediately and would cease to affect nations....

oil is being made more important than it has to be,

the hunt brothers of TEXAS, put together a scheme in the 70's to corner the worlds supply of silver and drive the price to record heights....

they did time for it, so should your president, cheyney, rice and rumsfeld...

.

The U.S. administration understands the language of force. North Korea demonstrated it. The U.S. and its pusillanimous coat hangers like Japan and the tail wagging British will make the necessary noises of protest and handwringing and talk show hosts will beat it to death in their analysis.

The basic point is that the murdering cowboy attitude of this administration and those before it carried out pogroms and devastated Nagasaki and Hiroshima because the japanese were asians. They could have dropped those bombs on Germany. But wait a minute. The Germans were their white racial brothers. So the hell with the japs.

All the wars and devastation imposed later were all on non white nations. Latin Americans, South EastAsians (VietNam), South Asia (Afghanistan),Middle East (Lebanon,Libya, Iraq and now probably Iran)Africa (Somalia). The only exception was Serbia who were allowed to carry out massacres of the Bosnians until the world woke up and demanded action. Who are the Serbs? Ethnically Slavs. So it was all right to war on them for face saving.

Oil is a driving need and engine of growth.

The house of Saud were given protection to keep the oil running. So long as Saddam was useful, USA helped him in his war of aggression in Iran. The then ambassdor of USA was complicit in giving the green signal for Saddam to conquer Kuwait. A very shrewd and calculated move to use it as an excuse to move in into and invade and occupy Itaq.

Much earlier on, the racist whites England and USA set up a state called Israel after the 2nd world war in the heart of the Middle East as their satrap to wound and sap the Arabs economically so that vital oil supplies keep flowing. The sins of the Germans were visited on the Arabs whose lands remain occupied. Complete unadulterated support for state terrorism by Israel, displacement of the Arabs from the occupied land, pressurizing the rest of the Arab states to deny any form of help to the Palestinians in regaining their birth right and land by the white regimes in USA and Europe has led to the rise of resistance in many forms called "terrorism" by the whites. Ahmed din Ejaad is right. Investigate the so called "HOLOCAUST" Numerous western authors have been jailed for exposing this myth. No newspapers dare publish their findings. No one will publish their books.

A great veil has been placed on this HOLOCAUST. Any one questioning it will be silenced one way or the other.

The North Koreans may bluster and threaten. The USA is too pre occupied with the demon of resistance (so called terrorism) by the occupied nations. The North Koreans will not be touched. A dance to the tune by the Americans to show the world that diplomacy will be tried. Eventually after getting tired of this charade, the North Koreans will be occupied and ruination visited on them like in Vietnam.

OSAMA was a paid CIA agent to gather jihadis to oust the Soviets. What happened? As soon as the Russians left, Afghanistan and to a certain extent Pakistan were left in the limbo.

History will show that 9/11 was an orchestrated plot by USA and OSAMA bin Ladin their agent to take credit and keep the drums of war rolling against all and sundry so that the occupation of Arab and Central Asian lands having oil wealth remains under USA control.

Every decade, to ensure frsh munitions for their armed foces, the USA will pick on a small nation, rant and bluster and orchestrate the weak USA terrorized UNO, pass resolutions in the Security council if possible or take unilateral action in invading the poor country picked upon and beat the drum of superiority.

Well, all things will come to an end. It took 800 years for the Arab empire to disintegrate, 700 odd years for the Roman empire to vanish, 72 years for the Soviet empire to go down the drain. So, wait. The cruel tyrannical US empire will also vanish.

All the rest is ballyhoo! Might is Right. The USA has the largest nuclear arms arsenal in the world. Why? To ensure its continued supremacy. For What?
Stupid! It is oil!

As far as using intel to inform citizens of the world of one nation's actions can be catastrophic and could backfire. First off, all peoples of the world have inalienable rights to be alive and protected by those leading them. Every leader has a right to protect its people. As do Democratic People's Republic of North Korea. Kim Jong Il may be quite bizarre, but not enough to gift wrap his own nation's fate by launching warheads upon western powers. He just doesn't want be left out of the nuclear negotiating table or be bullied by the U.S. government. The U.S. frequently threatens nations about aquiring nuclear material or the construction of facilities that might be able to produce weapons of mass destruction, yet the U.S. has been the only nation to use them on a civillian population(and on its own military). Twice. Put things into perspective.

North Korea also has some valid concerns. It is surrounded by nuclear armed Russia, China and US forces. Without nuclear weapons and proven delivery systems North Korea has no military deterrent against invasion by either (however unlikely).

Why is it unlikely? Because they have one of the world's largest standing armies with China behind their back. They don't need nuclear power to safeguard themselves now or in the past. If really did need it, then they would have been invaded and neutralized a long time ago.

I would like to know more about your sources too. Not because I believe you are a "dopey reporter," but because it casts a light on your views. Within the Defense department soley? CIA? White House?

Also what do you make of the story that Gen. Pace fighting tooth and nail to keep the administration from insisting on Nukes for the plan to bomb Iran? Any truth there?

How does the American media somehow manage to simultaneously report that North Korea and Iran are irrational states girding up for military involvement, AND that our administration has considered plans to invade or attack both countries?

If someone had publicly announced that they might be assaulting your house sometime in the near future, would you be irrational to take defensive measures?

john,

just curious where you get your information, if not from "dopey" "idiot" "ho" journalists? is it all news reporters you find so scummy, or just opinion writers? do you break them down by whether their slant runs with or contrary to yours?

please save us from ourselves. you're either getting your information on what's happening in the world from voices in your head, or those high level government briefings you must be attending.

save us. we beg you.

Well, Iran and Korea are on the brink. But at least we got Iraq successfully turned into the Terrorist State University we always knew it could be, and the new Islamic Republic we installed there has signed a pact of military cooperation with Iran.

Oh, but marriage is safe from those marauding gays and lesbians in Ohio who for some reason want to harm it.

Satisfied yet, Bush voters?

Old Ways Die Hard!

The old ways of provocation, creating a ruse and therefore a justification to attack a nation like the Democratic People's Republic of North Korea, appears to be intact and the order of the day.

Can you imagine if the leisurely Mr. George Bush did not have much of America's resources tied up in Afghanistan and Iraq right now, not to mention the attention that he has been giving to Iran, what America's response would have been to North Korea, preemption perhaps?

I shudder to think about it, and not for the sake of the U.S.A., rather for the sake of the people of North Korea. If we were not in Iraq, the U.S.A.'s insatiable thirst for blood, would have been satiated at the hands of the North Koreans!

How can a Christian nation (well maybe) have warmongers in charge of its domestic and foreign policies. I still say that the folks in Washington DC, are nothing more than 'natural born killers'.

I was hoping that the new millenium would be different. America needs a change of policy and leadership. A change in America's policy and leadership, will represent a welcome change for the entire planet!

The Rev

The author is obviously an idiot who neither understands how the intelligence system works nor how diplomacy is effective only to the point that the "other guy" allows.
Diplomatic pressure being applied as a measure to stop someone from doing something is only effective if the other person wants something you have more than they want to do the "something" you want them to stop. Think of trading a 2 year old kid a lollipop for the steak knife he picked up while you weren't looking.
As far as the intelligence agencies announcing their findings...when has that EVER happened? They don't announce their findings to you, me or anyone else who doesn't have a security clearance, you dope! The announce their findings to the people we have elected and the people paid for their expertise in the relevant areas...the people we have placed our implicit trust in to make the right choices by electing them or not firing them. Its easy for an armchair quarterback like you to spew bile from the peanut gallery after the fact - perhaps there's a reason you're only a "journalist". It happens to be a career choice,in my humble opinion, only one step down the respectability ladder from "$5 hooker". Go pimp your poison elsewhere - we're tired of it, "ho".

" ... A more reasonable and systemic explanation is that the old ways of "response" and retaliation still rule and that we didn't even think of making use of the details of U.S. intelligence to put even greater pressure on the North and China to avoid the crisis altogether. "

The administration may have realized that placing 'greater pressure' on Mr. Jong-Il and China, prior to the missile testing, would only have further complicated an already tenuous situation.

In this case, a pre-emptive strike or retaliatory strike by an exclusively US or combined US/western force is not a viable option, IMHO, due to the possible creation of severe instability in the region as a consequence. The 'approval' of North Korea's neighbor's for such an action is required for too many reasons. Mr. Jong-Il is likely well aware of this fact.

The Chinese (among other countries) were also aware of Mr. Jong-Il's plans from their own intel/observations and apparently decided not to pressure the North Koreans to cancel testing. Why didn't the Chinese do this and why are they and other countries seemingly resistant to the idea of pressuring Mr. Jong-Il, even as of this date? Are they 'sure' of his intentions or are they as perplexed as others seem to be concerning Mr. Jong-Il's recent and on-going actions, even in light of his behavior in the past?

There is also some benefit to permitting Mr. Jong-Il to display his weapons and their capabilities, if he is indeed showing 'what he has' versus showing what he would like the world to believe he has.

May the negotiations continue.

Where have you been?
I (a casual observer) have known for weeks about the planned launch of the larger missile. The President has mentioned it in several public appearances. Envoys have been flying all over Asia. How much more public could it be? The smaller missiles are just for show, and everyone has known about them....i don't understand your position that the public didn't know that this was going to