may the revolution include your spirited replies

To "Actually .... truth as the truth"

Your post supports the visionary genius of John Lennon: "Imagine a world with no religion", especially the kind you described.

It might be a dull place with just peace happening.

I think we both have written enough on this old thread. I'll watch for you in more current discussions. Although my nom de plume may change based on whose spirit strikes me as most thought provoking.

truth as the truth.

If I were satan I would create something called "religion," and I would tell each group that I started that I chose them, or valued them more than any of the other groups, that _they_ were special to me....

then I would sit back and put my straw into the nectar of their hatred and jealousy....the equivalent of a moderne day chicken ranch......and sip it like a mint julep....

I would confront people about how their belief that they are persecuted "because they are jews," is their personal myth

I would teach muslims that mohammed was a general who based his teachings upon a dream.........and ask them if they would invest in the stock market from a dream

I would ask the christians which writing in the bible were from jesus' hand, and why is it that the "official church of christianity" was established by the Romans....who basically needed to herd some cats, and having a personal relationship with "spirit," not fricking jesus i swhat _he_ taught

but the romans needed some way to discount that teaching, so they nailed _his_ effigy to a cross

symbolically, negating his influence and began teaching same old power over, which is still rampant in most male dominated faithe or "belief based" testosterone based churches o fthe new world

To: "dear Baron" and "ps...good analogy"

I viewed the dVd of V for Vendetta last night.

Two things struck me.

First, the story plot is much like my own adventure but told with a dark edge. V is highly skilled with a blade as am I. My Horatio Jackson and his bald headed assistant are V's Chancellor Sutler and Creedy. One difference is V works alone while I have four assistants. V relates to Evey as I relate to young Sally. V fearlessly meets his death for the first time like I frequently have done. He demonstrates that the experience is one which he would not hestitate strongly to recommend. In fact, he trained Evey how to fearlessly face death and thus realize true freedom is the absence of fear. A calm state of mind can always be chosen as Viktor Frankl discovered. Both V and I rail against lies and balderdash.

Second thing, I watched the dVd with the subtitles on to fully comprehend the dialogue. It struck me as I watched that your blog text paces down the page a few lines at a time like the pace of subtitled text for the dVd. Perhaps you are playwright or screen writer.

My favorite line in V was "artists use lies to tell the truth, but politicians use lies to bury the truth." This line explains why artists are prophets as Joseph Campbell asserted, for the Truth always ultimately prevails.

One line which I would edit is "People shouldn't fear their governments. Governments should fear their people." I would say, "People should respect their governments and government should respect people," for when government truly serves the needs and protects the rights of the people, it merits the respect of the people.

It is time for me to seek out beautiful ladies, the fun of which V caught on to quite late in his story.

Whip up some good lies for the sake of the Truth,
The Baron

PS. Here is an extra idea to ponder. Cain killed Abel because his sacrifice was second rate compared to Abel's. A feeling of religious inferiority motivated him to kill his own brother. Today we have two groups, Jews and Muslims, motivated to kill each other by feelings of religious superiority. Either feeling of inferiority or superiority is a fine example of lies and balderdash.

"Open the gates!," was my key line in my movie in defiance of the lies and balderdash. How does "Stop the excuses!" work for today's version of the same old story? What do you suggest?

the frog cooking analogy, and I agree with your points as well.....

another thing that is problematic is that with class seperation, the upper middle, soon to move to serf class, does not know what the rest of the United States is going through either....

and the Government workers, like those working for the Kremlin, don't experience what the rest of the country does either and fancy that the horror stories coming in are exaggeration, and don't reflect current reality, so rather than

turning in the offenders that believe the propaganda, until they too are cast out....

like some disgruntled and angry CIA/FBI/NSA people were

you don't want people that are smarter than you working for you, first rule of red china.

.

I know you do, I was being tongue in cheek and also playing

regarding concentration camps:

I can endure, but I won't have to, I shall clutch the monster to my chest and see if he can endure the heat of my breath and touch, as I skin him,

it is this that I crave...to taste the flesh of the beast of insipid selfserving dishonesty, disguised as a man,

upon the spit of my fork, and to swallow him whole....transforming him as a meal

the result of my digestion, I shall deposit on the earth, as a gift to the earth, so that others might feast as I have, upon dishonesty and make a good meal for themselves....and plant a seed of truth in the compost...

ay, I shall see him down and I will emerge intact.

To "Dear Barron"

I did not attack your lack of character. I clearly stated that you are perceptive and undeluded.

My reference to Horatio Jackson is to use one person to represent the collective officials who act as public masters under the guise of being benign public servants. I hope you did not think that I was using Horatio Jackson to suggest what I thought of you.

I agree with the whole litany of conditions you just posted. The reason they exist, however, is also attributable to the fact that most Americans are no longer paying attention to what their government is doing to them as evidenced by the poor voter participation.

I was trying to advise you that you may not succeed in your efforts to wake up your fellow citizens to their predicament. They are like the frog that has been cooked by slowly turning up the heat.

I actually cheer you on. I hope you make a difference. However, should the Horatio Jackson public masters succeed at closing the gates of the concentration camp, the wisdom of Viktor Frankl will come in handy if one wishes to survive the ordeal.

I wish you a more prominent means to broadcast your alarm than this obscure blog. Paul Revere had the highest point in town to signal his warning. But he had someone who was looking for it.

desist in your desultory attacks on my lack of character...or I shall enjoy myself regardless

I do not wish Bushs' demise, simply that clarity replace jingoism...........

his very electoral process stuns the human organism and renders it unable to think for itself...

he replaces patriotism with jingoism and destroys the bill of rights with the Patriot Act and no one notices.....

middle class diappears and everyone is working two jobs, kids don't even see both parents at the same time, no one notices....too busy working

and Washington blissfully isolated from the real world by defense contracting putters on....as the rest of the USA sinks liket he Titanic.....sunk by the icy chilliness of the complicit congress and do nothing Supreme Court, do nothing for justice

I would like his peeterness, geo. w. bush, to experience life as a service sector employee, without pension or medical for the rest of his life and the same for everyone related to him as well as the Executive Branch and any and all of his appointments.....

I would also like to see the property seized and sold of those same individuals as well as those of complicit congress, who knowingly signed off on this as well as those FBI/CIA/NSA people....properties sold, resumes marked fired and released into the service sector with felony marked on the lower right hand section......

See if _they_ can get a job at Wal Frickin Mart.......

let his father lose all of his holdings and become a WalMart greeter in San Antonio........

and die there...that is what I would like, as I know many whose lives will never be like those on "Father Knows Best," or "Leave it to Beaver," though that is the life they were born into........

Silverado/BayofPigs/WaterGate Burglars/CIA

.

To: "ps. I'm really not into delusion"

Viktor Frankl's truth will be valuable to know if the delusional Horatio Jacksons who think they are in charge of the universe do scare enough people, not as perceptive and undeluded as you, into making, for some length of time, the whole planet a concentration camp by closing all the gates between nations.

People live happily ever after only if they have the talent for it. And those with the talent are happy even in a concentration camp.

The delusional Horatio Jacksons are blind to their own incompetence and so will not be able to prevent their ultimate failure. Case in point, examine all the blunders Hitler made in World War II that aided his defeat. Horatio's lies and balderash are his own undoing.

This nonsense of Bush's too shall pass, and I appreciate the fact that you wish to hasten its passing.

I personally prefer to woo beautiful women.

Sincerely
The Baron

as a cure for reality.

I don't need to put a positive spin on bs, I simply need to plant something in it that will grow.

The truth.

Viktor Frankel was in a place that had no doors out.

There is no need to put the best face on a predatory leadership, unless they are stuffed and mounted.........you understandm e now don't you.

.

To "I think that you and Forrest"

Perhaps you missed the passage where Campbell wrote that he has never met a mortal human being.

You sound like someone who would enjoy Tom Robbins novels.

Rob Brezsny exercises one's imagination in his book Pronoia is the Antidote for Paranoia: How the Whole World is Conspiring to Shower You with Blessings.

Check out The Lady in the Water currently in theaters for a modern mythological tale. I rank it right up there with the movies about my life and Forrest's life.

Bon soir,
The Baron

Dear tiamat,
If that is your nom de plume, you write as if English is your second language. I guess Francaise is your native language.

It would be very difficult for you to be either a mere nice or mean guy if you are a goddess. That would explain your power to see through walls. Should you wish to join our Extraordinary League, a change of the organization's name can be arranged to correct the gender bias.

However, you are incorrect to assume that you are something I've never seen. For whenever I look in the mirror I too see someone happy to be myself.

Doux reves,
The Baron

are good writers...

I like Joseph Campbell okay, but mythology is different than he portrays it. I read Beowulf in middle English when I was 10 and Canterbury Tales about the same time. I was reading at adult level when I was 9.

I am into direct experience of the ineffible, not because it's hard, but because I like proof. And I get it.

Baron Munchausen, Pippi Longstockings, Heinlien, HG Wells, Freddy the Pig, Dr. Dolittle

but I have a few quibbles with Hawking, I lean more towards Bohm...I experience what he writes about....the enfolded, implicate order.

gravity is resonance, there are no waves...those are the result of distortion flux of the space time continuum(s)

dark matter is simply unvisible universes in concert withour own

music of the Spheres, Hazrat Inyaht Khan

raja yoga, diamond sutra, pantajali

meerkats in love.

.

I own a copy and read the original in my childehood...

Please understand, I'm not a nice guy, nor a mean one. I do not fit in, but I can see through walls.

I do not mean to fit in. I do not want approval, nor do I reject it.

If you want to fit in with me...fine. If you don't fine. I am something you've never seen, happy to be myself.

I like good writing. You might notice, being a writer that my style is someone different than that of yours and Forrests'

One day you may understand what I've done. It matter snot to me. pitter patter esquerde

tiamat

TO: "Dear Baron"

You and I have much in common.

I am a graduate of an engineering college. I have spent 30 years in commercial nuclear power industry where I qualified as a senior reactor operator, and as a root cause analyst for nuclear safety violations. In that same time I have also developed a deep appreciation for the power of art and humor to influence people without having to resort to irrational or rationalized violence.

I agree something stinks badly in the US and it just may be the putrefying odor of a once great civilization in decline.

Thanks to the liberal Congressional politicians of both major parties, a pseudo-conservative and crassly elitist president, and an untouchable Supreme Court all giving the McCain-Feingold Bipartisan Campaign Finance Reform Act a ringing endorsement, the Preamble of the U.S. Constitution has been effectively revised as a result of the destruction of the First Amendment by that legislation.

The revised Preamble reads, ""We the Politicians of the United States, in order to form a more perfect advantage, handicap justice, insure domestic futility, provide for the common pretense, promote the general incumbent, and secure the blessings of power to ourselves and our posterity, do disdain and therefore revise this Constitution for the United States of America."

As a result of this de-facto revision, the time has come for one of those revolutions that Thomas Jefferson said would be needed to protect the People's rights.

One more thing you should know. Forrest and I are card carrying members of the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. One must have a sharp wit as well as a sharp intelligence to qualify for membership. Work on your humor and wit to match your already sharp intelligence and I would be glad to nominate you for membership.

The power of humor is to open minds on both sides of an issue. Philosopher Anthony Cooper wrote that serious issues should be examined humorously and humorous issues examined seriously in order to stimulate the best ideas from human imagination.

Mark Twain was right on, laughter is mankind's best weapon. Use it well and for the common good.

Sincerely,

Heronomous Carl Frederick, Baron von Munchausen

PS, The late, great Joseph Campbell asserted that artists are the prophets and seers of their own centuries. Since you are an engineer, I assume you already know that Jules Verne gave us the Nautilus submarine, H.G. Wells put men on the moon, and Gene Roddenberry equipped the Star Trek crew with cell phones. Indeed artists presage what mankind does. Ironically, the 1988 movie of my life "The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" eerily foretells what the world experiences today, 18 years after its production. Check it out at Blockbusters and see if the character Horatio Jackson does not spot on remind you of a current world leader! Also read on the internet the lyrics of two Bob Dylan songs written in 1963, "The Times They are a-Changing" and "A Hard Rain Is Gonna Fall". You will be amazed by their prescience.

well, if you really know the good Baron, then you know that appearing to be over the top, and an exaggerator, and full of yourself is a good thing.....especially if you can do what you say you can, and it's just a friggin fact...he was quite the raconteur.

competing is not what I do, except as a tool....you bs me, and try to smother me with smarm, well I might take offense.

I am an engineer, I appreciate empirical observation and solution, I do not work from theory _as_a_practice_

if people were actually speaking the truth and working out things from a realistic stand point, you wouldn't see me writing...at all, at least not here.

Just between you and I, however, I do occaisionally, become affixated with disinformationists as well....in the terrier style.

what I Am interested in, is a country that supports itself well, with life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for all, and where a working together or friendship is essential, but it cannot be a feigned working together or a working against a group or a class.......unless the group represents perfidy, then well, okay.

In case you're wondering, hint hint

Right now, the occupation of Iraq is only the symptom of a larger problem that is the reinnoculation of the Government of the United States of America with the disease of "elitism,"

so that only a small percentage of the citizens of the United States of America actually are well off, in the richest country in the world....that stinks...

when I smell something stinking I say something is stinking and then describe the flavors that I am detecting, simply that

when someone attempts to spray parfume to disguise the aroma, I say, balderdash sirrah!

To "My Mother Taught...." and "Dear Forrest"

What ails you? What has inflamed your egos' desire to compete, to take someone on, to call some one out, to prove your superiority, to call attention to yourselves? You seem afflicted by the same traits that you rail against. I don't suggest you see a doctor.

he who used quotes as an attempt to avoid addressing a situation:

a. had no original thoughts

b. used "appeal to authority," to avoid honest discussion....

you don't have the stuff to take me on.

someone who emerges from an Iberian vacation and pretends to read others posts but actually, simply posts fluff as if it were substance, fails the sobriety test of life.

Pointing at this or that is not engaging. Neither is ignoring the reality which you profess to be addressing.

You were given a clear chance to offer something of substance. You respond with platitudes. There are real problems which you do not address, unless you mean handwaving. You haven't addressed any single issue.

Norman Vincent Peal doesn't solve slavery, get over it.......knock it off.

Address the simple issue of the removal of the middle class, and the replacement of democracy with an oligarchy....any one single issue.

You're not being honest. It's pretty simple. You want to do it live, I'll eat your liver, with a fine chianti...give my people a call...or pick a time, let me know peanut.

.
I dislike scholars with no experience, scholars in this case means armchair scholars that are administration lackeys as a career and don't mention that.

To: "Dear Forrest", "A little more Forrest", "Atlas Shrugged...", "Look Forrest....", "PS Forrest", and The Rev,

I certainly am flattered by the interest you all have shown in my posts. How are you all doing this fine day, especially you, The?

To help me appreciate life as a sweet box of chocolate, my momma also said that when you're prospecting for gold you don't go around looking for dirt. Seems to me you all like to focus on the dirt. But's that's ok, what gold you overlook, leaves more for me to enjoy! And that's not money I can take to the bank!

I'll share with you one more thing my momma taught me that wasn't in the movie about my life. She taught me that when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change. Don't ask me to explain how it works, I only have an IQ of 70, but it does work!

Changing the way I look at things has also helped me find the fountain of content or happiness in my own mind. Viktor Frankl explains how it works much better than I can in his book Man's Search For Meaning. He was able to find the fountain of content even though he was a Jew in a Nazi concentration camp. I must admit that I have never been through somethin' as terrible as that.

I do remember something simply profound that Viktor wrote. It goes something like this, what's important is not what we expect out of Life, what's important is what Life expects out of us. I hope I said that right, but it's probably best if you read his book. Based on what you wrote me, it seems you are thinking more about what you expect out of Life. With my puny brainpower I can't do both at the same time, so I think mostly about what Life expects out of me. I ain't got the smarts to think about what everyone else has been doing. I figure God can handle what I can't.

By the way, my momma also taught me an old Chinese proverb: He whose ideas have failed him, strikes the first blow. So far the ideas my momma taught me haven't failed me yet, although I did get angry and strike blows whenever I saw anybody hurt Jenny. Anybody who results to name calling or threats impresses me as someone whose ideas are on the verge of failing him.

Your friend still, I hope,
Forrest Gump

I guarantee you, my last dying words would not be

"Father forgive them, they know not what they do........."

it would be more like,

"What a lying, selfish bunch of cretans, I'm going to have to get up offa here and kick som efriggin a sssssssssss"

"Gimme that fricking spear, I'll show you how to use it...."

Forrest,

I like both your and your mama's style. And by the by, Ann Coulter (God help us all), agreed with your position about the Bush dynasty. She said as much at the Washington Press Club a few weeks ago. She reminded her mostly female Republican audience, that 'George Bush was a Bush', she made that disparaging reference with regard to Bush's domestic policies.

One caveat, to his daddy's credit, he seemed to have come around towards the end of his Presidency. He started making comments like, "we must become a kinder and gentler nation", and he wanted to raise taxes.

The Republicans cried balderdash and the next thing we know, Mr. Bush Sr. was repeatedly looking at his watch (during the Presidential debates), because he knew that his days were numbered. Our current President needs to begin looking at his watch, because his Presidency is lying on a cadaver, and just waiting to be carried to the political graveyard.

I wonder if he ever told his son that life was like a box of chocolates? I don't think so; his policies are neither kind nor gentler!

song "Company Store," was about?

address what I've stated, you can't touch the hem of my robe Forrest

you apparently don't work for a living,

have you heard the words, out_sourcing or down sizing?

can you do anything besides state platitudes and get "grumpy," when I point out the fallicious reasoning?

do you know what it means to die, because you can't pay for your meds because the government reduced your medical benefits by $30 a month and you're on a fixed income...to pay for them to corral all the oil in Iraq....

then shut the eff up.

.

you're not a nice, good natured guy, you're a pimp for this administration, disguising itself as a kind hearted deeply caring but I've got my hands tied by circumstances personality...Jimmy

thanks so much for showing me what I needed to hear to tear you a new a hole....

Clinton, does not and has never been part of a dynasty that can trace his roots back to the friggin Stuarts of England, pre American revolution times.....

do you know what being "landed" means?

George H.W. Bush does have those kind of connections and has been involved with the CIA, it is rumoured since the early 50's when he tried to retrieve his Uncle Walkers holdings in Cuba by working with them and the Mafia to assassinate Castro....uncle Walker had as part of his inheritance controlling interests in the British West Indies Company, and slavery to run those plantation from early pre colonial times........

try googling George H.W. Bush and Negroponte and see what you come up with....

the point is the Bush dynasty has been in Washington, or directly involved with it since the 50's, and most of that time has been involved with some part of intelligence and the CIA, _over_ FIFTY YEARS

Think poppy has any friends in the government working with George W. Bush? Might their names by Rumsfeld, Delay, Cheney, Negroponte and the "complicit congress"?

Do you think a man who had been nothing more than a governor of Arkasas and a friggin Rhodes scholar, who got us out of a trillion dollar deficit is the same thing as the current travesty of a human being? LOOK CLINTON DIDN'T WORK IN WASHINGTON FOR 55 FRICKIN years

pull your head out of your shrimp trawler Forrest.........

Clinton also doesn't have connections to Halliburton, or have his father serve on the board and he's sure not had any SAUDI princes come to his Crawford ranch to hold hands with him and he's sure as hell not an oil inherited good ole boy that lives in Texas..........CIA/MAFIA/LBJ/HOOVER

thanks for your opinion

?

Don't try equating sh it with shinola and ask for a passssssss

I'll give you something to run from.

precaryus,

Your posting was insightful, but left out many other causes of the Middle Eastern conflicts. A few are:
Poorly defined nations thrown together by the British after the fall of the Ottoman Empire. Resulting in the division and mixing of religions and ethnic peoples in a politically conflicting manner.
The world will deplete all economical sources of oil in the next forty years. The Middle East has what the rest of the world wants.

To "To Forrest Gump",

I think you missed my point.

I don't care if other people are not caring.

I care only about finding the fountain of content in my own mind and nobody can do that for me but me myself. It don't matter how other people are behavin'. Jesus himself had to have found that fountain as he was dying but was able to say, "Father, forgive them for they don't know what they are doin'."

My momma also had me read a thick book Atlas Shrugged, and the main thing I took away from that was that nobody can make you a victim unless you give them your permission.

In order to avoid being a victim, I often took my late wife Jenny's advice to Run, Forrest, Run! John Galt, the hero in Atlas Shrugged, also seemed to avoid being a victim and not working where he wasn't appreciated, and he has a whole lot higher IQ than me.

Seems to me if you don't like your working hours just quit. If you really want to avoid being a victim then start your own company like I did with Bubba's ideas about shrimpin' and use your ideas about how long people should work. As my momma said, "Stupid is as stupid does."

You're right though about the government leaders not seeming to know what they're doing. I'm gonna have trouble voting them back into office next election. I sure hope our next president isn't another Bush or Clinton. It doesn't say much for the IQ of voters if they think those two are the only names that can become president.

A Bush or Clinton has been in charge since 1988 and things have sure gone sour. Can you imagine only a Bush or Clinton being president for a span of 28 years if Hillary wins in 2008 and 2012. It would be as if we had two royal families and no one else could sit on the throne.

Your friend,
Forrest

Hello Forrest,

you r words are eloquent. To work with what is in front of you is different than working with the best.

IF you have a class of people that have been so removed from the "rest of us," that they no longer identify or understand us and yet

they control the process of making laws and controlling what controls us

it has nothing to do with words of wisdome, because you're using them on people that aren't participating inthe world. They are seperated by the very definition that says that they are not like other people....

they do not suffer the same laws that we do, the laws do not touch them

they do not suffer the same destruction that we do, they have reserves of income and availability of resource that protects them from fear of their actions

they are not thrown out of their jobs unable to find another, because of their actions, they become lobbyists, even if shame is their watchword...and dishonesty their constant companion

they are not privy to tender emotions to others outside of their group, they are trained by their families to view others as chattel, servants, material, laborers

and although they may have a few friends among the ordinary, theyar e not of them...

We are returning to a caste system within the United States.........WWII

is the only reason things changed, and it was really good for EVERYONE for a while

but the middle class is being eradicated, leisure is now the thing of legends for the working class, and the service sector or servant sector is where most people will end up being without some real insights into

what is going on.

middle class means 40 hours a week, time to think, enough income to own a home and spend time with a family after 8 hours.

white collar middle class, blue collar middle class.........informed public making decisions from a place of knowledge not sound bites, because they're working two jobs that pay them what they used to make at one job....

real world situations require real world understandings and responses....

the Executive Branch and Complicit Congress are robbing and destroying the United States and the World, purposely, not through stupidity through lack of understanding and the desire to care....

they desire "not to care," look at Cheney and his good friend the George Wallace look alike Tom Delay.....

these are not caring people.

.

able to say this:

"
Everybody wants to know how we got here and what we are supposed to be doing. And perhaps we are already doing it, despite of what we are being taught via religious dogma!
"

and discussing the politicization of religion and the religion of politicking is important...

the truth should be spoken as it exists, there are no divine principles that need "spin"

spin is the work of distortion, and creates such...

In short, I agree with you, and I see you working for truth. I count you as flexible and willing to work for the truth, without needing to take sides.

.

Hi again to The Rev,

That sure is an unusual first and last name you have there, The.

To answer your question about what did my momma teach me about life being like a box of chocolates, I can only say this.

To help me always appreciate the good or sweet aspect of life she had me memorize this quote from Sam Johnson, my momma was real good at rememberin' wise things other people had said, "The fountain of content must spring up in the mind, and he who has so little knowledge of human nature as to seek happiness by changing anything but his own disposition, will waste his life in fruitless efforts and multiply the grief he proposes to remove." (Seems to me if Cain had been taught this he would not have killed his brother, Abel.)

That thought also sure kept me from doing stupid things a whole lotta times besides being able to see something good in any situation. To help me understand what Mr. Johnson had said, my momma also had me read Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl. Mr. Frankl was a Jew who was able to find the fountain of content while he was in one of those horrible Nazi concentration camps. Seems to me that more people oughta read that book.

I also don't know why more people don't take Mark Twain's advice which he gave in The Mysterious Stranger, "For your race (he's talkin' about the whole human race), in its poverty, has unquestionably one really effective weapon - laughter. Power, money, persuasion, supplication, persecution - these can lift at a colossal humbug - push it a little - weaken it a little, century by century; but only laughter can blow it to rags and atoms at a blast. Against the assault of laughter nothing can stand. You are always fussing and fighting with your other weapons. Do you ever use that one? No; you leave it lying rusting. As a race, do you ever use it at all? No; you lack sense and the courage."

Instead of exchanging bombs and rockets, things might go better if they just traded jokes. Once they was all in a good mood, they just might stop wasting lives in fruitless efforts and making things worse and worse.

Your friend,
Forrest Gump

Hey Dear Rev,
problem is we got fundamentalists messing with our world...

You will not get an argument from me about religion or fundamentalism. I am not an apologist for religion or for religious fundamentalism. Clearly, we can all see 'religion uncovered' in terms of the episodic events that are taking place in the Middle-East. The events in Middle-East have once again exposed the failures of religion not only in the Middle-East but all over the world. We have a lot of religious professors' in various faiths, but that's about it. And nothing has changed since the time of Cain and Abel, when there was an apparent squabble over whose sacrifice to God was better. Just like with Jesus, Abel's death resulted from something that had to do with religion and religious people.

But it is not just religion or religious fundamentalism that is problematic, Jon Meachem, author of The American Gospel said, "You can separate the church from the state, however, you cannot separate politics from religion". Ann Coulter was halfway right; however, she applied her findings to Democrats, that's where she went wrong; the problem included all political parties. There is a political aspect to what we are witnessing the Middle-East that by and large, contributes just as much to the problem as religious fundamentalism contributes. A speaker, over the past weekend, explained that the reason for the fighting has mutated. He said, THE BATTLE NOW IS OVER WHO WILL CONTROL LEBANON, i.e., Iran through Hezbollah, or the USA through Israel.

Have you noticed how many religious clerics, on all sides, Reverends, Preachers, Imams, Ayatollahs... are in bed with politicians? They make strange but content bedfellows don't they? Why? Religion is political, and politics have always been religious, as far as too many folks have been concerned.

The Religious Right of our day are no more than the Sect of the Pharisees that Jesus encountered in his day, Jesus would have been too liberal for the Religious Right if he were here today. Rev. Pat Robertsen would probably have him killed... Religion and politics got Jesus killed, I repeat, by religious people who used a secular politician, Pontius Pilate, to accomplish their objectives.

Ah, I keep saying that I am waiting on science to take us to the next step in our evolution for religion, in generals, has failed miserably and religion cannot apparently escape its intolerant, meandering vicious cycle of hatred and intolerance. Here's what science should do, since they can't seek for God, just seek after truth. Everybody wants to know how we got here and what we are supposed to be doing. And perhaps we are already doing it, despite of what we are being taught via religious dogma!

After Cain and Abel, I wonder why God did not simply cancel religion, well; he actually may have done so? Perhaps we are the ones who are keeping it going

Another lonely Jewish voice.
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Why doesn't Israel work for peace?
Holocaust victims would decry the slaughter of innocent children during attacks on Hezbollah

BY SILVIA TENNENBAUM
Silvia Tennenbaum, a writer in East Hampton, is author of the novels "Yesterday's Streets" and "Rachel, the Rabbi's Wife."

August 4, 2006

As a Jew who escaped the Holocaust by moving with my family to America in 1938, I turn on the BBC at night. And what I see are clouds of black smoke, explosions; the dead and the dying - children crying bitterly, cities in ruins. Only yesterday, these piles of rubble in Lebanon were home to thousands. Now, the cars roll out onto the highways, white flags attached to the windshields and doors. More than half a million are homeless.

The Israelis told them to leave, but then strafed one convoy from a helicopter. The military people exert their force without pity. They win their wars proudly. They are the masters of force.

Using the most modern weapons the United States can supply to search out the Hezbollah guerrillas, the Israeli soldiers destroy Lebanon. They wreck all of Gaza, seeking to murder the leaders of Hamas.

Many American Jews gather proudly to cheer them on. The face of the American president remains blank. A patter of platitudes issues from his lips. He is not interested in peace. He is happy to see Israel do the dirty war for him. Diplomacy is a word not in his dictionary.

But lo and behold - even as the destruction builds and the war continues through its third week - it seems suddenly no longer such a lark. Success is hard to come by; Israel is no longer the perennial victor. But will it know what to do when faced with the need to talk with the enemy? It has always felt so invincible that discussion seemed the weapon of fools and weaklings, much like the way the earnest work of its principled and dedicated peace camp - Jewish to the core, in an "old-fashioned" way - seemed pathetic and misguided.

But the peace camp knew that each and every Israeli atrocity nurtured another enemy, a potential terrorist, while every Palestinian home that the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions helped to rebuild, every olive tree it planted tenderly in occupied soil, brought another possible friend, another partner in dialogue.

Meanwhile, back at the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, deep in the heart of the Jewish Lobby, the call to action is, as always, a call for solidarity, for good public relations. Denounce terrorism, suicide bombers and anti-Semitism in all its endless variations, which includes the "self-hatred" of the misguided Jew who asks us to give some thought to where we - obsessed with brutal retaliation - may have gone wrong.

And, it goes without saying, loyal Jews must talk about the Holocaust. Ignore the images of today's dead and dying, and focus on the grainy black-and-white pictures showing the death of Jews in the villages of Poland, at Auschwitz and Sobibor and Bergen-Belsen. We are the first, the only true victims, the champions of helplessness for all eternity.

No matter what great accomplishments were ours in the diaspora, no matter that we produced Maimonides and Spinoza, Moses Mendelssohn and hundreds of others of mankind's benefactors - not a warrior among them! - look at the world of our long exile always in the dark light of the Shoah. But this, in itself, is an obscene distortion: Would the author of "Survival in Auschwitz," Primo Levi, or the poet Paul Celan demand that we slaughter the innocents in a land far from the snow-clad forests of Poland? Is it a heroic act to murder a child, even the child of an enemy? Are my brethren glad of it and proud?

I am heartsick, and still I see a glimmer of hope (there must be that glimmer, to go on at 78 years).

The American peace camp reports a sudden massive increase in membership. All over the country, Jews whose consciences have not been crippled are writing in, speaking up, gathering, to raise their voices. Is this not what we have always done? What we were brought up to do? What - since the days of the Bible and the prophets - our forefathers taught us? If Israel had worked for peace as hard as it has worked for war, might it not all be settled now?

Three hundred British Jews took out an ad in the Times of London to ask the question, "What is Israel doing?" This question has now been taken up by Jewish Voice for Peace, and by Alan Sokal and Bruce Robbins who, some years back, placed an ad in The New York Times, that read, "Not in Our Name."

The time is long overdue for Jews to return to their role as the world's conscience, who come to the aid of the dispossessed, the wretched of the earth. Once again, we must join those who demand the end to unjust wars - in Iraq as well as Lebanon - and an unjust occupation in Gaza. We must honor the example of American civil rights workers Andrew Goodman and Michael Schwerner, not that of the mass murderer Baruch Goldstein or Yigal Amir, killer of Yitzhak Rabin.

And perhaps the day will come that we will be counted - by Jew and Arab alike - as among the Just, perhaps even given a place at Yad Vashem, the Holocaust memorial in Jerusalem, for the lives we helped to save in a lawless, savage time.
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www.newsday.com

Dimitry,

Thanks for your clarification. Now I can go back to my box of chocolats.

Ben Caspit, an Israeli journalist wrote this proposed speech for Prime Minister Olmert:

July 31, 2006
Ladies and gentlemen, leaders of the world. I, the Prime Minister of Israel, am speaking to you from Jerusalem in the face of the terrible pictures from Kfar Kana. Any human heart, wherever it is, must sicken and recoil at the sight of such pictures. There are no words of comfort that can mitigate the enormity of this tragedy. Still, I am looking you straight in the eye and telling you that the State of Israel will continue its military campaign in Lebanon.

The Israel Defense Forces will continue to attack targets from which missiles and Katyusha rockets are fired at hospitals, old age homes and kindergartens in Israel. I have instructed the security forces and the IDF to continue to hunt for the Katyusha stockpiles and launch sites from which these savages are bombarding the State of Israel.

We will not hesitate, we will not apologize and we will not back off. If they continue to launch missiles into Israel from Kfar Kana, we will continue to bomb Kfar Kana. Today, tomorrow and the day after tomorrow. Here, there and everywhere. The children of Kfar Kana could now be sleeping peacefully in their homes, unmolested, had the agents of the devil not taken over their land and turned the lives of our children into hell.

Ladies and gentlemen, it's time you understood: the Jewish state will no longer be trampled upon. We will no longer allow anyone to exploit population centers in order to bomb our citizens. No one will be able to hide anymore behind women and children in order to kill our women and children. This anarchy is over. You can condemn us, you can boycott us, you can stop visiting us and, if necessary, we will stop visiting you.

Today I am serving as the voice of six million bombarded Israeli citizens who serve as the voice of six million murdered Jews who were melted down to dust and ashes by savages in Europe. In both cases, those responsible for these evil acts were, and are, barbarians devoid of all humanity, who set themselves one simple goal: to wipe the Jewish race off the face of the earth, as Adolph Hitler said, or to wipe the State of Israel off the map, as Mahmoud Ahmedinjad proclaims.

And you - just as you did not take those words seriously then, you are ignoring them again now. And that, ladies and gentlemen, leaders of the world, will not happen again. Never again will we wait for bombs that never came to hit the gas chambers. Never again will we wait for salvation that never arrives. Now we have our own air force. The Jewish people are now capable of standing up to those who seek their destruction - those people will no longer be able to hide behind women and children. They will no longer be able to evade their responsibility.

Every place from which a Katyusha is fired into the State of Israel will be a legitimate target for us to attack. This must be stated clearly and publicly, once and for all. You are welcome to judge us, to ostracize us, to boycott us and to vilify us. But to kill us? Absolutely not.

Four months ago I was elected by hundreds of thousands of citizens to the office of Prime Minister of the government of Israel, on the basis of my plan for unilaterally withdrawing from 90 percent of the areas of Judea and Samaria, the birth place and cradle of the Jewish people; to end most of the occupation and to enable the Palestinian people to turn over a new leaf and to calm things down until conditions are ripe for attaining a permanent settlement between us.

The Prime Minister who preceded me, Ariel Sharon, made a full withdrawal from the Gaza Strip back to the international border, and gave the Palestinians there a chance to build a new reality for themselves. The Prime Minister who preceded him, Ehud Barak, ended the lengthy Israeli presence in Lebanon and pulled the IDF back to the international border, leaving the land of the cedars to flourish, develop and establish its democracy and its economy.

What did the State of Israel get in exchange for all of this? Did we win even one minute of quiet? Was our hand, outstretched in peace, met with a handshake of encouragement? Ehud Barak's peace initiative at Camp David let loose on us a wave of suicide bombers who smashed and blew to pieces over 1,000 citizens, men, women and children. I don't remember you being so enraged then. Maybe that happened because we did not allow TV close-ups of the dismembered body parts of the Israeli youngsters at the Dolphinarium? Or of the shattered lives of the people butchered while celebrating the Passover seder at the Park Hotel in Netanya? What can you do - that's the way we are. We don't wave body parts at the camera. We grieve quietly.

We do not dance on the roofs at the sight of the bodies of our enemy's children - we express genuine sorrow and regret. That is the monstrous behavior of our enemies. Now they have risen up against us. Tomorrow they will rise up against you. You are already familiar with the murderous taste of this terror. And you will taste more.

And Ariel Sharon's withdrawal from Gaza. What did it get us? A barrage of Kassem missiles fired at peaceful settlements and the kidnapping of soldiers. Then too, I don't recall you reacting with such alarm. And for six years, the withdrawal from Lebanon has drawn the vituperation and crimes of a dangerous, extremist Iranian agent, who took over an entire country in the name of religious fanaticism and is trying to take Israel hostage on his way to Jerusalem - and from there to Paris and London.

An enormous terrorist infrastructure has been established by Iran on our border, threatening our citizens, growing stronger before our very eyes, awaiting the moment when the land of the Ayatollahs becomes a nuclear power in order to bring us to our knees. And make no mistake - we won't go down alone. You, the leaders of the free and enlightened world, will go down along with us.

So today, here and now, I am putting an end to this parade of hypocrisy. I don't recall such a wave of reaction in the face of the 100 citizens killed every single day in Iraq. Sunnis kill Shiites who kill Sunnis, and all of them kill Americans - and the world remains silent. And I am hard pressed to recall a similar reaction when the Russians destroyed entire villages and burned down large cities in order to repress the revolt in Chechnya. And when NATO bombed Kosovo for almost three months and crushed the civilian population - then you also kept silent. What is it about us, the Jews, the minority, the persecuted, that arouses this cosmic sense of justice in you? What do we have that all the others don't?

In a loud clear voice, looking you straight in the eye, I stand before you openly and I will not apologize. I will not capitulate. I will not whine. This is a battle for our freedom. For our humanity. For the right to lead normal lives within our recognized, legitimate borders. It is also your battle. I pray and I believe that now you will understand that. Because if you don't, you may regret it later, when it's too late."

The righteousness of this war which is for self-defence and the survival of Israel and all civilized, democratic, christian and non-secular countries, is very true. We should all wake up to the pan-Islamic ambition/agenda of the muslim extremist groups/countries, like Hezbollah and Iran. We should help Israel , instead of condemning them, for they are not only fighting for their own survival, but they are also fighting for us. Remember, that Hezbollah, Iran, Hamas and others of the same kind, are out to destroy Israel or annihilate or kick the Jewish people out their land. They will not be satisfied until all the Jews give up all the land to them - this is their real agenda. They always initiate the killings/violence by terrorist acts and when Israel hits back, they resort to complaining about the damage to their homes and deaths to their civilians to all TV stations, newspapers of the world and whine/complain of 'Israeli aggression/violence/genocide". They justify and cover up their hidden agenda to destroy/kill Israel/Israelites to make them leave and give all the land together to them, by calling their own terrorist acts as "acts of resistance" against Israeli occupation. In short , they want the Israelites to give up all the land to them and leave, move to Europe, as Iran's president had declared to the world

good column, bill. you make the point that ultimately needs to be said: war is not the way to defeat terrorism, it only exacerbates the terror on both sides. both sides vow revenge, blow for blow.

i think the fanatics on all sides are in control of the weapons and the debate. all this does is breed fanatics.

==Dimitry, your latest posting...August 7, 2006 08:46 AM...tends to confirm a "Closed Mind"! I hope you are not advocating turning Syria and Iran into Molten Lava? If you are?...God Help Us All!==

You obviously misanderstood me. Read again.

==Placing this Gentleman into the mold of "Chalabi" is way off base and wrong!!! Chalabi's agenda was always clear...He wanted to replace Saddam!==

I apologize. I didn't mean "Chalabi" as actual Chalabi, but rather as a symbol for all the foreign expats, clamoring for various changes in their home countries by the military/political/economic powers in this world.

The expatriate community offers us two basic criticism of their former home region, and it is valuable because often, in their zeal to demonstrate their sincere tranformation to their new environments, they offer a "holier than the Pope" view, whcih distills the common arguments to their most direct form.

The commentary or explanation falls into two distinct categories. The first one, well personofied by the well meaning Hanan Makiya ("Republic of fear", and general neocon-approved political essays), argues that the Arab world is a victim of tyrannical regimes and Arab people are enslaved by their abhorrent native torturers. This historiographic and personality based view, while holding some value, generally ignores the long history of the region and active complicity of the outside powers of creating the sad state of afairs in the region. Neither does it address the complex interaction between society and any forms of leadership, even in dictatorships. This is a view which contends that Stalin was abhorrent aberation, not a natural outcome of the Soviet communist experiment. I find it rational that Makyia, in his former life was a communist.

The other view, well described by your "Arab gentleman", essentially boils down the region's problems to economic/political/religious "dysfunction" of the region. Again, we see an examination of the ills that plague the region, as if it exists in historical vacuum and current political/economic/military isolation. While this view undoubtedly is important and it is necessary to look squarely at the region's problems, one must at least attempt to see the bigger picture and understand the complex interaction with the larger world. The underlying context here is the lament the region's inability to "keep it together, man, and pull yourself by your bootstraps, like we did". This is generally the critique from the right, and I am almost certain that the "Arab gentleman" holds conservative political views.

What is common to both expatriate groups (aside from their near total alienation from the "arab masses" for which they puroprt to speak and whose liberation they are trying to "effect"), is their underlying belief in the possibility of rapid societal transformation. This is the philosophical basis, which forms the foundation of modern politics of both the left and right varieties. It is difficult to say why such a view persists today, even after clear evidence to the contrary. It harkens to the heady days of the 19 century when Darwin's theories were mis-applied to both justify already existing European colonial policies (social darwinism) and emerging marxist theories of societal communist transformation (societal darwinism). Political elites of both sides have been attracted to these ideas ever since, probably because it justifies their very existence.

I believe ideas of social and societal evolution have been proven conclusively false by our history. Therefore, attempts at rapid societal change through active, "formative" engagment (military campaigns, economic sanctions, religous missionary work) have been largely unsucessful and more often than not lead to more strife and suffering for the populaton whose society were are trying to "change" for their "own benefit". And this critique is made falsely assuming "good motives" on part of the "agent of change", which is often (mostly?) missing.

So one probably should advocate disengagement of all forms of messianic meddling in the affairs of the "developing world" by the powers that be (which doesn't preclude genuine communications and gradual mutual change). However, this is like asking a junkie to drop the habbit. Ain't goona happen.

Posted by: Dimitry | August 7, 2006 08:46 AM

==Dimitry...You obviously have a closed mind==

"Why? Because I questioned a reference-less posting from an "Arab gentleman", which sounds like a gentrified version of the arabophobes on this forum?"

In Response to Dimitry: I rest my case, you answered the "Closed Mind" question!
Some would probably even support your "Nuke Em" solution.

Dimitry, your latest posting...August 7, 2006 08:46 AM...tends to confirm a "Closed Mind"! I hope you are not advocating turning Syria and Iran into Molten Lava? If you are?...God Help Us All!

WE ARE TERRORIZING their terrorists'.

According to Ralph Peters, retired Lieutenant Colonel and author of 'Never Quit the Fight: We are doing just what I have been saying that have been doing all along, terrorizing other people and other nations of the world, except we won't call what America does, terrorism. Here is all of Dr. Peter's quotation on C-Span last week, he said:.

• "How on earth can a country compete with the West, especially the United States...?

• And that is the problem with the Middle-East, for when you take all of the niceties away, the realms....the Middle-East Civilizations and subcultures of the Middle East have been failing for centuries.

• They are not competitive on a single count, not economically, socially, culturally, certainly not educationally, scientifically...NOT EVEN IN TERRORISM because WE ARE TERRORIZING their terrorists'.

• It is easy to forget, terrorists have technical offensive IED, some of the time IED and car bombs, but we're on the strategic offensive...". Get it strategic offensive.

• Again folks, all terrorism must end, especially Western terrorism, which is cloaked in euphemisms like spreading freedom or bringing democracy. The U.S.A. is bent on world domination and through any means necessary, politics, military intertervention, preemptive war, graft, payoffs and finally, the "T" word, terrorism.

Aside from your biases, thank you Lieutenant Peters, for it is about time that someone told the truth about a portion of America's mission in the world, the other part, not even you would admit. The U.SA. works just as hard to be the world's hegemon

Forrest,

And what did your mama teach you about life being like a 'box of chocolates'?

• A part of this fight is also over a box that contains light and dark chocolates, even though there are light and dark chocolates on either side; get my drift?

• The other part of this fight has to do with what a Lebanese spokesmen said over the radio the other night. He said that the fight that started 3 weeks ago in Lebanon has apparently mutated. Now the fight is over which side is going to control Lebanon, i.e., Iran through Hezbollah or the United States through Israel. Something to think about, huh? Most of what the U.S.A. gets into, in my opinion, is about Sovereign Control/Domination!

I don't disagree with anything that your mama taught you, or what she read. I would simply add one other thing that comes from the Christian, might as well say Hebrew Bible.

When you go to the altar and pray, and you know that your brother has been offended by you, leave your gift at the altar and go and straighten the problem out, then return to the altar. It is amazing to me that all of the religious groups that are involved all go to their altars, metaphorically and literally, daily, yet none of them have the sense to stop and straighten out this mess, where they are concerned, or involved. The latter does not speak very well about RELIGIOUS PROFESSION, does it?

So, forgiveness yes, but we all should be more proactive about correcting the wrongs that were done in the past; notice, I did not say the wrongs that we have done ourselves. And we all should be sensitive to the feelings of those who feel that we have wronged them, even if we cannot understand what they are trying to say to us! The majority of America has not learned that lesson either, given the history of racial politics and apartheid in this country. The country prefers to move on, as if it never happened. The Senate apologized, but Congress will not. All 3 branches of the Government failed the minorities in this country for approximately 200 years.

Finally, forgiveness by the victim should not be used as an excuse by the perpetrator to ignore his previous or current, intentional or unintentional bad behavior or missteps. People are too quick to pardon themselves for whatever they have done, or benefited from which came as a result of bad behavior. The end result is that they will be prone to engage in the same behavior again in the future.

There should always be atonement of some kind with the ultimate goal in mind of having peace, and then everyone can move on! That is one of the reasons that the Jews accepted reparations from the Egyptians when they left Egypt under Moses' command. It is sad that a people who have been oppressed so many times before themselves, are not more sensitized. Perhaps many of them have simply become hardened!

Forgive, or better [fore give]; put the other person before you and you become the giver!

And I love the [swimps and mashed 'taters] at Bubba Gumps on the Wharf and at Monterey. Keep those [swimps and mashed 'taters] a coming!

Forrest,

And what did your mama teach you about life being like a 'box of chocolates'?

• A part of this fight is also over a box that contains light and dark chocolate, even though there is light and dark chocolate on either side, get my drift.

• The other part is what a Lebanese spokesmen said over the radio the other night, the fight that started 3 weeks ago in Lebanon, has apparently mutated. Now the fight is over who is going to Lebanon, i.e., Iran or the United States. Something to think about, huh? Most of what the U.S.A. gets into, in my opinion, is about Sovereign Control/Domination!

I don't disagree with anything that your mama taught, or what you said. I would simply add one other thing that comes from the Christian, might as well say Hebrew Bible.

When you go to the altar and pray, and you know that your brother has been offended by you, leave your gift at the altar and go and straighten out the problem then return to the altar. It is amazing to me that all of the religious groups involved, metaphorically and literally, go to their altars daily, yet none of them have the sense to stop and straighten this mess out where they are concerned or involved. The latter does not speak very well about RELIGIOUS PROFESSION, does it?

So, forgiveness yes, but we all should be more proactive about correcting the wrongs that were done in the past. And we all should be sensitive to the feelings of those who feel that we have wronged them, even if we cannot understand what they are trying to say to us! The majority of America has not learned that lesson with respect to its history of racial politics and apartheid in this country.

Finally, forgiveness by the victim should not be used as an excuse by the perpetrator to ignore his previous or current bad, intentional or unintentional bad behavior or missteps. People are too quick to pardon themselves for whatever they have done. The end result is that they will be prone to engage in the same behavior again.

There should always be atonement of some kind with the ultimate goal having peace, and then everyone can move on! That is one the reasons that the Jews accepted reparations from the Egyptians when they left Egypt under Moses' command. It is sad that a people who have been oppressed so many times themselves are not more sensitized. Perhaps many of them have simply become hardened!

And I love the [swimps and mashed 'taters] at Bubba Gumps on the Whart and at Monterey. Keep those [swimps and mashed 'taters] a coming!

Lies? I'm not exactly sure what you are referring to. But if you are suggesting that the Israelis have not been attacked since the first 24 hours it became a nation and that Hezbollah is not a fascist terrorist regim

Biblical history teaches us that these lands were occupied and at times scarily occupied, as a consequence of war and invasion. Many times the inhabitants were taken off of the land and pressed into servitude in other territories like Babylon.

When the Israelites first approached the land under the leadership of Moses, there were 7 other nations already occupying land, so certainly they were not the first occupants of the land.

However, with respect to lies....?
There are those historians who believe that the Philistines of Philistia in biblical times was the same group that we know today as the Palestinians. And that seems to plausible to me.

==Dimitry...You obviously have a closed mind==

Why? Because I questioned a reference-less posting from an "Arab gentleman", which sounds like a gentrified version of the arabophobes on this forum?

This posting can and probably should be posted in the Weekly Standard as the final "proof" of the deep crisis and complicity of Islam in the predicament the Islamic nations find themselves in. Followed by a militant call for immediate bombing of Syria and Iran.

After the smoke from the small nuclear attack is over and a couple of countries are in radioactive ruins, we my find that the "Arab gentleman" never really meant his critique to lead to war, all he wanted was nice things...

Posted by: Dimitry | August 7, 2006 12:43 AM

"I guess it is interesting that it comes from an "ARAB" gentleman. Do you know who he is and if he lives in those ARAB countries or an expatriate? We in the US has a nice recent history with those, Chalabi "hero in error" comes to mind. I am sure we can find similar essays deliverd by the Iraqi National Congress personnel to sympathetic American think tanks."

Dimitry...You obviously have a closed mind. Who cares if he (Wise ARAB Gentleman) "lives in an Arab country or is an expatriate"? I have read his posted speech several times...He doesn't appear to have an axe to grind!...He doesn't appear to have and political ambitions!...He doesn't appear to favor any particular religious or political base/party! What he appears to represent is quite simply "A Wise Arab Gentleman" who is saddened by the events taking place in a region and culture he obviously loves! His analysis, comments, observations, and recommendations make more sense than most of the blathering postings to this blog...especially yours! Placing this Gentleman into the mold of "Chalabi" is way off base and wrong!!! Chalabi's agenda was always clear...He wanted to replace Saddam!

As I said in an earlier posting, as a minimum, this speech should be REQUIRED READING for all World Government Leaders and Policy Makers!!!

Precaryus...Thank you so much for posting this Wise Arab Gentleman's Speech!!

Who is he and where can we read more of his observations, ideas, and recommendations?

I noticed today an item online:

Hizbullah mortars hit a UNIFIL site. Four Chinese UNIFIL staff were injured.

When Israel allegedly hit a UNIFIL site, there was world outrage. When Hizbullah does it, it hardly merits mention in the news. No outrage. No world condemnation. No CNN. No Al-Jezeera.

Nothing. Only when the Jews do it.

==And Islam is nothing but failure for both its adherents and their neighbors; we see violent attacks by Muslims against their Christian neighbors in the Philippines , Muslims rioting against Buddhist authorities...==

My understanding that in the historical context, Islam has been highly tolerant of other religions (unlike Christianity). Is the mayham you are describing perhaps not an indication of "inherent failure"?

==From its beginning Islam was violent and expansionistic.==

Well, they clearly lost that game to Christianity now, didn't they? If there ever was a religion that professes peace yet carries the sword, Christianity is it. I wouldn't ascribe it as an endemic failure, though, but one of interpretation. Very consistent interpretation, it must be said...

==Hooray! This guy is incredible! A must read for anyone. The following speech comes from a very wise ARAB gentleman.==

I guess it is interesting that it comes from an "ARAB" gentleman. Do you know who he is and if he lives in those ARAB countries or an expatriate? We in the US has a nice recent history with those, Chalabi "hero in error" comes to mind. I am sure we can find similar essays deliverd by the Iraqi National Congress personnel to sympathetic American think tanks.

This is true...It would be hard to "steal" land that was barely, if at all, inhabitated at the time the jews started moving there. Israel is 1% of the entire Arab region and yet the palestinians have been fighting ever since.

Precarius is listed Aug 4 @ 5:20pm on this blog

David,
There was NO palestine until the jews arrived and termed it themselves as the land of Palestine.

When the distinguished Arab-American historian, Princeton University Prof. Philip Hitti, testified against partition before the Anglo-American Committee in 1946, he said: "There is no such thing as 'Palestine' in history, absolutely not."

In 1937, a local Arab leader, Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, told the Peel Commission, which ultimately suggested the partition of Palestine: "There is no such country [as Palestine]!... Our country was for centuries part of Syria."

The representative of the Arab Higher Committee to the United Nations submitted a statement to the General Assembly in May 1947 that said "Palestine was part of the Province of Syria" and that, "politically, the Arabs of Palestine were not independent in the sense of forming a separate political entity." A few years later, Ahmed Shuqeiri, later the chairman of the PLO, told the Security Council: "It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria."8

Stolen? Stolen from who? As the Maritime Plain in 1913 described it:
"The road leading from Gaza to the north was only a summer track suitable for transport by camels and carts...no orange groves, orchards or vineyards were to be seen until one reached [the Jewish village of] Yabna [Yavne]....Houses were all of mud. No windows were anywhere to be seen....The ploughs used were of wood....The yields were very poor....The sanitary conditions in the village were horrible. Schools did not exist....The western part, towards the sea, was almost a desert....The villages in this area were few and thinly populated. Many ruins of villages were scattered over the area, as owing to the prevalence of malaria, many villages were deserted by their inhabitants.13

And when Mark Twain visited the land in 1867, he described it as: "...[a] desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds-a silent mournful expanse....A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action....We never saw a human being on the whole route....There was hardly a tree or a shrub anywhere. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast friends of the worthless soil, had almost deserted the country."17

Lies? I'm not exactly sure what you are referring to. But if you are suggesting that the Israelis have not been attacked since the first 24 hours it became a nation and that Hezbollah is not a fascist terorist regime whoe power should not be eradicated...I'm not sure what kind of moral existence you are interested in living?

Perhaps you should read what a fellow Arab wrote under the name Precaryus in a different blog on this Wash Post site. Its quite telling

OK, Bill. Since you seems to want to talk generalities, let's get the underlying specifics of the Jewish Holy War:

1.) A Racist state, on stolen land.
2.) Justified by numerous lies.
3.) Enforced by a brutal military.

Since the Jews have accomplished what the Nazis never could, it seems reasonable to me that we get to the point, here.
The Jews in this country have been very powerful for a long time. It's true that our Middle Eastern policy IS tied to Israeli interests. Almost exclusively. It's also true that war is the only "response" which a conventional government can implement. Governments cannot enforce morality.
Your column gives the superficial appearance of objectivity. But any truly objective assesment needs to start at the beginning; in this case, with the ambitions of the racist warmongers known as Zionists who decided to steal Palestine in the late 1800's.

Amazing Joe...the pictures from Qana are so peculiar. For one, there was an 8 hour time difference on two different pictures from the same rescue seen at Quana. Now, Reuters has come out to retract a different picture because it was doctored. It was the same photographer who took the pictures from Qana.

Don't be naive!
The terrorist groups are exremely talented at using DECEPTION through the media and spreading mis-information.
You are wrong - there is no talking and no negotiation with people who are determined and have as their ultimate goal to wipe you off the face of the earth, and don't care dying for it.
Every second you're not hitting them they are arming and seeking the best way to attack you.

I think you have been misled by the media and have not yet understood the seriousness of the situation.

Check out the makings of PALLYWOOD and HISBALLYWOOD at http://blog.technonllc.com

I would like to poin tout that corruption doesn't have a color.....

people who have a lack of character or no experience being the down trodden tend to treat the rest of us like chickens being raised for market........

the lack of sympathy for our ordinary plight is because, they've not experienced it.......

look at the favorite new terrorist word....Islamofascists....sound s bad doesn't it?

may be they're people, but with a name like gooks, or whatever we don't have to treat them like that...calling people "white people," is the same non thinking thing....

they aren't, as you pointed out our mitochondria sayz that all origins are African.....

anyone got curly hair? most likely you got some black blood....and if you're not blue black then you got some white blood....there are very few purebloods....

the moors/arabs influence in genetics is very much in Southern Europe.....

problem is we got fundamentalists messing with our world...

.

lot's of potent information, howz about arresting the Executive Branch?

Arrest them for treason, prevent them from sending more of our people over to fight their wars for E X X On and British Petro...

we need to cure the lack of honesty, want to have the world be a better place to live....

send a complicit congress person home and arrest the executive branch....

rescind faux war pow ers...

.

Hi, The Rev!

Thank you for replin' to my post.

My momma used to read the Bible to me all the time, and I thought that was a pretty mean thing Sarah did to Hagar and Ishmael back at the beginning of the book. It was the same type of thing you hear families doing to each other today on Dr. Laura's radio talk show, which I like to listen to.

I happen to have read Dr. Laura's book, The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands, and something she wrote struck me as very true about Sarah's actions towards Abraham, Hagar, and Ishmael. I underlined this passage when I read it on page 59 of that book. Here is how it goes:
"What I don't like to hear, but hear too often, is women not wanting their stepchildren around because there will be no children before theirs! How disgusting! Even more disgusting is how resentful wives can get about their husband's time, affection, and financial resources being directed at his own children. There is so little sensitivity to the fact that he already has those bonds and that they matter, and that his responsibility to any children he's had is a moral imperative."

Sometimes part of putting the past behind you is doing the right thing and saying your sorry and making amends for the mean things you have done to others. To me it seems the descendants of Sarah are doing the same mean thing all over again to the descendants of Hagar, even though they both have the same greatest grandpa, Abraham.

Instead of generals and politicians trying to fix this long running family squabble, maybe a good family therapist would do some good. I think Dr. Laura's the best, and I bet she would know what to say and do to make things right in Abraham's extended family.

Your friend,
Forrest Gump
PS, I spell my name with two r's.

Jonnie,

One caveat, America cannot keep walking away from the messes that he it helps to create, particularly, the one that it is a part of in the Middle-East!

What do you think?

Forest,

Ultimately, you are correct, however, there is nothing to say that one should not amend the past either.

In the book, The Lemon Tree, the author pointed out the ties that the Palestinians who were suddenly and summarily uprooted from their land and their homes experienced as a result of the U.N.'s action.

Their dead ancestors were left behind, buried in cemeteries, houses and furnishings were left behind, business et al. These folks were told to get up and leave. Some Palestinians, decades later have since gone back to visit their childhood homes, only to be told to go away.

Just as the Jews grieved a Homeland, the feelings of these displaced people was no different than there's was. Many of these people, who were displaced 60 years ago are still alive. Most people, long for home!

My point is that it is easy for us to tell the Palestinians simply to move on, however, we do not feel their grief and we have not experiened their losses; the wound is still there. It is dissapointing to me that the Jewish Semites (not all Semites are Jews), are not more sensetive to the plight of the Palestinians, given that they both had similar losses, and both groups desired to be home.

I have said it before and will say it again, based on the Hebrew scriptures, if religious people who are called by God's name, would turn from their wicked ways...these problems would disappear, and they would seek a compromise through Love!

By the way, although I disagreed with the Vietnam War, kudos to you folks who were drafted into that war, particularly given what you experienced in Vietnam and after you returned to America.

Hey y'all,

I'm not as smart as you fellas but Cap'n Dan (I promoted him from Lt. Dan for the fine job he did skippering our shrimp boats while I was running around) said my ideas are as good as anybody else's. I think these ideas are the best I ever got:

Idea # 1 - Stupid is as stupid does. (I hate to be critical but I think my late Momma would say everybody involved in that fracas in the Muddled East is acting pretty stupid.)

Idea # 2 - Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you are gonna get. (I think if you can look at things the right way you will eventually see that everything in Life is "Sweet!", as my new friend Napoleon Dynamite likes to say. By the way Napoleon, ran a successful campaign for president. Someone may like to hire him as an adviser.)

Idea #3 - Miracles happen everyday, most people just don't see them. (I expect they are even harder to see if you're busy sightin' in a target with your weapons of choice.)

Idea #4 - You have to put the past behind you before you can move ahead. (I found out that a nice long run across country helped me with this one. It's hard to do this, and I don't know what will work for you. I know it will seem impossible to relocate the thousands of years gone by since the original family squabble between Hagar, the greatest grandma of the Arabs, and Sarah, the greatest grandma of the Jews, but this is something that has just gotta be done.)

And when all else fails,

Idea #5 - Run, Forrest, Run! (My late wife Jenny told me this one. You all can fill in your own names in place of mine. I expect this one will come in handy if you all get in a fight or an argument that you're not gonna win. This idea won me the Medal of Honor. I have read some history since getting that award, and I found out George Washington ran from the British more times than he defeated them in battle. If my memory serves me correct, he won only 2 of the 9 major battles he was in during our revolt against King George III. So don't be afraid to run as Our Founding Father wasn't bashful about it. The longer you can stay alive the better chance of getting a miracle, like the French fleet showin' up at Yorktown at just the right time.)

I was in Vietnam so I know war ain't much fun, especially when everyone's confused about what your fighting for. I ain't sure anybody's reasons to fight in the Muddled East make any sense to me at all.

Your friend,
Forrest, Forrest Gump

There is no quick solutions for the mess the west has created in its short-sightedness of installing Israel in Palestine land without true consent of palestinians.

A beginning could be made by practicing democracy truly, taming the influence of corporations on govt, giving up the notion of "Mine is better" and banning arms trade.

Thanks.

Even as a black American,

I will support my country anytime that it is acting in a just manner, but my pledge to it America, is based on justice. I will not support any of the lies or the subterfuge that have been promulgated by the criminals who are currently holding office in Washington. In my view, they all should be jailed, for malfeasance, terrorism, murder and accessory to murder around the world.

When the Iranians released African-Americans during the hostage crises, Jimmy Carter was President at the time, I appreciated what was said by the Iranians, i.e., that black people in this country were an oppressed people as well. And thank you for releasing our people!

Our people did not do a very good job of returning the favor, even Rev. Jesse Jackson's comments were ill-timed, but he was running for office at the time himself. I am disappointed that any minority would fight and kill, in order to upheld White American Supremacists values around the world. I really still cannot believe that and I have encouraged blacks not to fight the white man's values. Having said that, I understand why Persians and Arabs will kill blacks given that blacks are killing your people.

And if you are wondering, my lottery number came up to high, in order for me to be drafted in the Vietnam War. However, make no mistake about it I would NOT HAVE SERVED! I said then that I would never serve in the army of a country that discriminates against me. I also added that when America guaranteed me everything that the Constitution of the United States promised me, then I would serve, but not until.

The facts are that as Malik Shabazz once learned, and I can attest to what he said, all white people are not bad people. Many white Americans do not believe in White Supremacy either, I have found that out. Unfortunately, it is customarily the mis-educated and ignorant ones who always seem to come to power, and they are the ones who make consequential decisions that effect the rest of the world.

I know that many of the freedom fighters in the Middle-East are not terrorists. And those who have become terrorists, are no different from the terrorists that we have in our Administration and in the West, like those in the United States Government, you are simply fighting for what you believe, however, without an army! Hang in there and we will continue to try to educate more people on this side of the ocean, perhaps we will do some good. In the meantime, don't reciprocate by killing innocent people like some in the West are accustomed to do.

Now send on the hate Americans, The Rev!

What I find so astonishing about the Clinton/Rumsfeld set to is the media's obsession with the "process" aspect rather than the central question Senator Clinton focused on.

The media and the talking heads in their bloviation contests only focused on the political aspects of the confrontation and spent little time on the central question, namely: Why in the world should we believe Rumsfeld, Bush, Cheney, Rice and their neocon toadys over at the PNAC and the various conservative think tanks, when they have been so consistently wrong about virtually every foreign policy point they have made since implementing the farcical Bush Doctrine since 9-11?

A war with Iraq will be a cakewalk. Wrong. A war with Iraq will send a message of American strength and resolve throughout the world. Wrong. We will find enormous stockpiles of WMDs in Sadaam Hussein's arsenal. Wrong. A war with Iraq will lead to a diminishment of terrorist actions around the world. Wrong. Iran and North Korea will be motivated to negotiate and end their pursuit of nuclear weapons. Wrong. America will be more respected throughout the world. Wrong. A war with Iraq will lead to the spread of democracy throughout the Middle East. Wrong. There will be no Vietnam-like insurgency in Iraq. Wrong. "Dead or Alive" we will capture Osama Bin Laden and end the threat of terrorism. Capturing Sadaam will bring an end to the conflict. The establishment of an interim government will break the back of the insurgency that wasn't supposed to happen. The establishment of a new government will lead to the withdrawal of troops. Troops will begin to withdraw in the months before the 2006 Congressional elections. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

"Barney, you're doing a heckova job." Wrong.

"During his tenure as head of the CIA, George Tenet has performed in an exemplary manner and well earned this Medal of Freedom." Wrong.

"I am a uniter not a divider." Wrong.

"What we are seeing are the last throes of the insurgency." Wrong.

"We now know that Sadaam has significant stockpiles of nuclear material that can be made into a bomb." Wrong.

Now you Bush-Rumsfeld-Cheney cheerleaders out there may not like what the Senator had to say to Rumsfeld the other day but, there is no way you can deny that she didn't have a valid point.

Tabjat,

This thing is bigger now than the Jewish/Arab conflict.

The fact of the matter is that it is about who will dominate the world! What is going on in the Middle-East is only a symptom/microcosm of the larger problem.

This will make some people really angry, however, to be more succient the problem from the West has to do with White Supremacy/Domination of the world, particularly its resources, and therefore the people who sit on top of its resources.

President Bush's euphemimistic phraseology in a speech that he made last year, i.e., "...America will never yield..."; not enough attention was given to what he was saying.

And before someone else writes to say that it cannot be about whites only given that blacks now have a Middle-Class and are in the Republican Party, and a part of the Administration, it is not only whites who believe in the White Supremacist Doctrine. Many minorities appreciate the fact that 'trickle down' will eventually reach them as well, as long as this doctrine is in power; others have already benefitted. It is not simply race, consumerism, greeed, wealth and pride also factor into this pernicious ideology.

The White Supremacists of the West (particularly the Teutons) will oppose any ideology, any people of any color, and whites, that they believe could potentially upset the balance of power and control that they have in place.

I will be called a bigot; I have been called a bigot for pointing out the obvious, however, if you could be a fly on the wall in the some of the private discussions and policy-making discussions that take in D.C. and around the country, you would think that you were at a Ku Klux Rally. But the rally again includes other than people of color in the world!

Having said, I find any group that desires to dominate another group to be deplorable, even the criminals who try to dominate and control the world using euphemisms like Democracy, and Democratic-Values. And as I often say, anyone who believes them is Democrazy!

The rev is an Ass

Have the courage to put your name on your entry, coward!

I doubt that you even know where the term, 'Right' comes from either. Yet many in this country call themselves 'The Right'.

The Rev would suggest that you do some homework before showing how dumb you are.

P.S. All of the bombs and missles that have landed in Lebanon, have one thing in common, They were, "Made In America".

Sta and Flavin,

Let me provide Alvin Tofler's quotation again, he wrote:

The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn.

In America we have what is known as Judicial Review. Judicial review is the power of a court to review a law or an official act of a government employee or agent for constitutionality or for the violation of basic principles of justice. In many jurisdictions, the court has the power to strike down that law, to overturn the executive act, or order a public official to act in a certain manner if it believes the law or act to be unconstitutional or to be contrary to law in a free and democratic society. In some, such as Scotland and also England, the power goes further, and it may be possible to strike down a decision simply because it ignored relevant and material facts. WIKEPEDIA.

Let's think about Judicial Review with respect to the decision that was voted upon in the United Nations General Assembly in 1947, which resulted in the establishment of Resolution 194, keeping in mind your interpretation of that decision and your apparent desire to have everyone to simply accept it. Was it a just decision? Were all of those who would be effected, fairly represented and involved in the decision, or did a group of nations simply force the creation of an unfair Resolution. The final vote tally was 33 yeas, 14 nays and 10 abstentions; hardly a mandate, would you agree?

Now let's think about many of the laws that were passed in the United States including Separate but Equal, Miscegenation and many more statutes that were voted into Law, that have been since overturned for being unconstitutional. For years, certain people were satisfied to accept the status quo and to insist that it was lawful to discriminate against minorities and women for example. However, as a learned person like you would know, there have been many Amendments made to the constitution, as well as Judicial Review by the Supreme Court and new laws passed by Congress in order to remedy the mistakes of the past.

Discriminatory laws and Resolutions should not simply be shoved down the throats of the victims, simply because, 'it is The Law, otherwise, we get what we are getting now in the Middle-East, just another reason for those groups to hate and annihilate each other. I would prefer to see my tax dollars going towards a solution, rather than to support one side by purchasing bombs!

Now let me pontificate (for real):

• Just because something does not effect a certain group, that group should not be so flippant about a matter that is effecting hundreds of millions of people in the world, and more importantly the people in the Middle-East who are effected on a daily basis by a poor and improper decision, in my view. I refer you to the British, who could explain some of the shenanigans that took place that resulted in the passage of Resolution 194. The British not only ridded themselves of the Middle-East, but Pakistan and India, nearly 1B people at the time.

• With respect to the U.N., granted the United Nations is not America (well maybe not), however, in the same spirit of Judicial Review in America, the U.N. could review a bad precedent, and take it back to the General Assembly in order to have something done about it. And if that does not work, I suspect that the Palestinians and all Muslims, Arabs and Persians have the same ability and right to ignore the United Nations and its resolutions, just as the United States and Israel have often been known to do.

• The U.N. Resolution was not passed with the good of all of the players involved, in mind. Where were the Arabs, Sta? Intellectual laziness contributed as much to discriminatory laws remaining on the books in America, much as racial hatred, bigotry and misogyny ever did! The 1947 resolution was a vote of convenience that satisfied the will of nations, who felt that they would not be effected by its outcomes.

Did you know that Mr. Lincoln and his Administration once considered deporting the black population of America to Panama, among other places? Thank God that never happened, and what happened in Palestine, as a result of the skewed vote in the U.N. should have never been allowed to stand either! There was also discussion about moving moving the European Jewish Diaspora to Ghana, I believe it was, and other places.

• From 70AD to 1948 there was no Jewish Homeland, although there were some Jews in Palestine just as there were Jews scattered all over the world. The U.N. partitioning plan resulted in the removal of over 700,000 Arabs from their homeland. Was that fair? Again, the U.N. Vote you might say, 'was a rush to judgment', and the Arabs and Palestinians are not just fighting as the West would have you to believe, just because they are terrorists.

It is time for you, our Leaders, all Semites, our policymakers, U.N. officials and others to heed the warning of Mr. Toffler, for it is time to unlearn and to relearn, otherwise there will be more of the same in the Middle-East, which may one day draw all of the nations of the world into the greatest conflagration, by humans, that has been known to man. It would appear that we are getting closer, day by day!

United Nations Resolution 194 was not passed with the good of all of the players involved, in mind. Where were the Arabs, Sta? If it were American law, believe me, it would be overturned, we would see to it, and their would be practices. Law and practices that have been shoved down the throats of the victims, even in America, should not re