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Huck: Do you know any actual Muslims? Not the ones you've seen on TV, I mean. Because I meet Muslims here who think the same thing you do about Americans, minus the "encouraging suicide" part. They see the number of Muslims that have been killed by Americans, and they think Americans are wild, dangerous people who must be stopped.

I just needed to post one more thing.

People keep popping up with these comparisons of President Bush to Hitler.

Huh? How do you compare a guy who murdered approximately six million European Jews, to a guy who is just trying to defend our country from an enemy that wants to KILL US. Islamic Radicals wanted to kill us BEFORE we invaded freaking Iraq, just as much as they do NOW, and just as much as they ALWAYS WILL want to KILL US. C'mon - what does it take? The USS Cole bombing on October 12, 2000; the FIRST World Trade Center bombing on February 26, 1993; the list goes on and on. ALL ISLAMA-FASCISTS. This has been festering for a long time, people. It didn't just start on March 20, 2003.

It would be a different thing if President Bush just said, "Hey, I don't like Iraq, so let's invade and kill everybody". But he didn't - so the comparisons make no sense. If you have an enemy that states day after day, after day that they want to kill you... and then they DO it on a regular basis with some level of success - you have to take that seriously and kill them first. Sad, but true nevertheless. No other "philosophy" will work in this particular situation.

Posted by: Master Guru
Every part of the responses @ me are of the same person, IMHO, and are just pieces of drab copied from liberal rags, anyway. Check for yourself.
Never let them see what's coming. Pull up some rags from June, 1944 and see if we were about to kick some butt, according to the "experts".

You are becoming more incoherent with every comment you post.

Dimitri:

So I'M a cult member, but not Radical Islamic Fundamentalists. Funny that the Radical Islamic Fundamentalists pick out the bits and pieces of the Holy Q'uran that teaches its followers to murder all those who are not Muslims, all those who do not serve and follow Mohammed and Allah. But - the American military went into Iraq with orders to obey local religious customs. Contrary to what you might think, our troops aren't over there just randomly murdering children, razing villages, etc. They're risking their necks every day for people who wanted democracy ALREADY - before the US ever invaded. We're not freaking "colonizing" Iraq; we don't have a secret oil tanker line running here from Iraq, or any of the other conspiracy theories you may spout off. Do you think, as unpopular as President Bush is right now, that he would waste one second seeing to it that oil prices got lowered from this huge influx of fictional "free" oil?

Let's not mince any words here. The reason we are in Iraq now - is because Radical Islam has put us there. We fight it there; or, wherever else we need to fight it in the Middle East, for as long as it takes - and that way we can sit over here and watch it on TV instead of fighting these retarded jackasses in our streets. The civilized world will never tolerate the weird, murderous values of some twisted form of Islam that not only CONDONES, but ENCOURAGES MURDER and SUICIDE. How could anyone NOT get it, that Radical Islam is "on the rise"? Even semi-liberal CNN ran a documentary about this - if you consider yourself civilized, you have an enemy, Dimitri. It's called Radical Islam, (or, Islama-Fascism, either one will work). I keep repeating that, because people like you don't seem to get this simple point. It's like you see the person who is driving the car you're riding in has fallen asleep... and it's like you're saying, "He'll wake up in a second, it'll be fine".

IT'S NOT GOING TO BE "FINE". Nothing will ever be fine unless we continue to fight Islama-Fascism everywhere it takes root. Then, we need to kill the roots, and destroy any seeds. Do you think for one second that NORMAL Muslims like these idiotic drones causing them to have a bad reputation???

When you have an enemy who thinks they will be rewarded after death, with things they could never have in life - they must be fought with every single thing you have. If you want to survive - you can't simply sit there and pretend the "elephant isn't in the room", because it is. And it's starting to walk around a little.

At the same time, it gives me hope to see people like The Rev., Dimitry et. al. who have some humanity. I hope your views prevail, mates!

Thank you Bukko in Australia,

Our society continues to be more marginalized, given the dominance of America's Communist (Republican) Party over the past 6 years.

However, the shades that had been pulled down over the eyes of many Americans (for the past years) are slowly beginning to be lifted. Most Americans are beginning to see that the dark shadow that prevailed over this nation, also for the past 6 years is beginning to be penetrated with light.

Even some staunch conservatives in Congress are begrudgingly coming out of the shadows in protest of the prolonged and ongoing Bush debacle in Iraq, which in a broader sense was an attack not only on Iraq, but on 'the entire world'!

-----------
And to another writer, #43 may be the Commander-in-Chief of the military, however, keep in mind that the military and the Commander-in-Chief are supposed to be subject to the will of America's civilians. Someone apparently forget to tell #43!

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Every part of the responses @ me are of the same person, IMHO, and are just pieces of drab copied from liberal rags, anyway. Check for yourself.

Never let them see what's coming. Pull up some rags from June, 1944 and see if we were about to kick some butt, according to the "experts".

Sometimes when I look at bush, I feel an intense urge to "surge". I want to send my grunts and seamen into the tightest nooks and crannies of Iraq. Our men are on top in Iraq, and we've got to get behind them. Fire our explosive weapons, and penetrate the thin veil of Islam. Look out Al Qaeda, we're coming!

Hi-
Told ya so. Rove believes in double down.

Right you are, DC! I should not have singled out Wal-Mart workers. But as a lefty, I just don't like the biggest importer of Chinese goods into America (and thus the biggest destroyer of American jobs) so I slag their name with abandon.

(BTW, they have K-Marts in Oz, and a chain called "Big W" that's run by a former corporate exec of Wal-Mart and uses much of the same sales approach and even typefaces on their in-store placards. But no actual, run-from-Bentonville Wally's.)

And I concur with your take on the fallout of bombing Iran. If we think the attacks on U.S. troops in Iraq are bad right now, what would they be like if the Badr Brigades AND the Mahdi Army decided to unleash all their flying monkeys on every U.S. outpost and convoy? It would be a bloodbath for U.S. soldiers. A bloodbath for the Iraqis who attacked them, too, but bad stuff all around.

And if the U.S. was to attack yet another country, don't you think the rest of the world would turn against America? The U.S. would look like a pit bull gone mad, killing in nation after nation. It would be the world against America. The oil price spike would cripple the U.S. economy, and countries like China (an ally of Iran) would use their financial clout to make the value of the dollar implode. How would the U.S. handle economic sanctions imposed against IT?

I hope there are enough people in Washington who are as wise as you, DC. But I fear that there are not. That's why my arse is down here and my money is in Switzerland.

masterb@@@@ Guru,

KC made a factual comment on past historical mistakes and how they relate to the terrorist threat we have today. Your attacks on his character only prove him to be correct and indicate your resistance to facing the factual truth. I am very aquatinted with American History and World History where as you are severely lacking. You try to draw erroneous analogies between the Iraq and WWII. You could not be any further from the truth. The Iraq War is a composite of Yugoslavia and Vietnam. Iraq compares to Yugoslavia due to its cultural, religious, and ethnic diversity and for both countries to be held together it took a ruthless dictators, Sadam and Tito. American involvement in Iraq compared to Vietnam, where we fought in a guerilla type war with no end in sight, every conventional military battle was won, yet the political war for the hearts and minds of the peoples of the region and country was lost long before our pull out. Iraq will be partioned or a new brutal dictator will arise and I would rather have the United States pull out, before seeing it drop to the level of Sadam.

It's easy to get in a blog and show how tough you are, but you are master of nothing but fooling yourself. You give no details of how and what will happen if we attack Iran. Let me give you a few details. When Clinton fired cruse missiles at Iraq in the 1990's several misfired and landed unexploded in Pakistan, these ended up going the Chinese who used the technology to build and sell cruse missiles to Iran. Iran has several hundred cruse missiles on the Straights of Hormuz at about point blank range to much of our fleet in the region and oil tankers. 40% of the world's oil supply passes through the straight and any military action will shut down the oil supply. Shutting down the oil supply will cripple the world economy and it won't be matter of how much a gallon of gas will cost, it will be a matter of finding a gallon of gas at any price! Now if you think Iran will just sit ideally by and let us bomb them, you are in error. They will also have to retaliate on the ground, most likely in Iraq. Also keep in mind that we don't have enough troops for Iraq where we are mostly engaging about 20 to 30 % of the population of less than 27 million or about 9 million considered openly hostile, not that the remaining population wants us there. Iran has a population of over 70 million almost entirely Farsi. Now Guru, do the math on this Iran war you want so badly, where are we going to get all those troops to fight what will turn into a ground war, when we have to use grannies and felons to meet the recruiting shortage?

Unrealistic Rick, if you want to see one of the reasons I compare the current U.S. war effort to the Nazis, you should read the article in The Nation magazine based on interviews with 50 soldiers and Marines who have served in Iraq. They describe the routine abuse and shooting that American troops do to the Iraqis. It's not liberals who are saying this; it's the troops who kicked the doors in and pulled the triggers themselves.

I won't bother to copy the link here, because I don't think you will, so why waste the keystrokes? However, it's horrifying, what the America military has become.

And Rick, I am definitely educated, with two college degrees and a lot of world travel. But I'm not an ivory tower elitist. I'm a male nurse. Part of the way I make my living is to literally wipe peoples' arses. I wipe Muslim arse, Christian arse, Greek Orthodox arse (Australia is more multi-cultural than you might realise) but mostly, atheist arse, because Aussies are not very religious. Thank God!

Basically, I'm in the business of keeping people alive. That's why it's so saddening to see there are so many people who wish for death.

Posted by: Rick the Realist

"First, you deny the terrorist threat that even the democrat senator joe lieberman recognizes. the NIE released today said that al qaida will take over if we turn tail and run from iraq."

First of all you are lying in stating Bukko said there was no terrorist threat; he never stated that.

"the US went into Iraq to spread democratic self-government, the first Muslim democracy ever. if u cant see the difference between our country and the nazis and their fellow islamo-nazis, you are truly delusional."

Your comical, you should be on comedy central! There are similarities to the Nazi Germany in that we were not invited into Iraq, nor has Iraq ever attacked the United States first. Rick, seriously now, you should get your chicken @$$ over there and fight if you fell this strongly instead of wasting time on the internet.

"Thirdly, you put down people who disagree with you by saying they work in construction or at wal mart. that is the typical liberal elitist argument. you insult anyone who doesnt live in an ivory tower on some college campus, and u think anyone who works at wal mart is beneath you. i worked at walmart and the people there had more class and common sense than all of the liberal elitists like you combined. i'm glad you left America. we're a better stronger nation now that you have taken your views elsewhere.when our soldiers are dying in iraq now, you have the gall to call their commander-in-chief a monkey? if this was done in ww2 to fdr, or in the civil war to lincoln, you would have been sent to jail. you hate bush, but you dont admit he's kept us safe since 9/11 from more terror at home by fighting them before they get to us."

I've commented in WaPo for the past two years under various ID's. However doing research on my father's military career in WWII (yes he was a Democrat and a double bronze star recipient in ETO). I was surfing for information on his Captain in 1940 at Fort Jackson, SC, West Pointer Theo Bilbo, Jr., son of the late Sen. Theo Bilbo Sr.; I have a nice photo of Bilbo Jr. and my father. Rev, my father was nothing like the Bilbo Sr.. I recall as child him speaking of how Bilbo Jr. liked him and looked out for him, both were from the South. Thus I started looking for information on the net and in my searching found a cousin of Bilbo, a Mike Adams who comments in Townhall.com . To send an email to Adams, I had to register for townhall.com news, one of the most conservative on-line news sources in the country. For several months now I've been debating, if you can call it that with ultra conservatives and I'm usually out number ten to one, I know that's not fair, but I couldn't even the odds by getting another ten cons to take me on. I am amazed at the comments from cons without any factual basis. You Rick should go post in Townhall.com where you can run down everyone who does not agree with you and get High-Fives from the other brainwashed con idiots who post there. Bukko was a little out of line with the Wal-Mart and construction worker comment, I'm sure next time he won't do that and will just use the term politically correct term "redneck", however that does not mean rednecks like you don't work at Wal-Mart's, but then so do liberals and many Wal-Mart workers who are opposed to Bush and the war in Iraq. Heck, even Australia has Wally-Worlds. As for my response to your opinion on the War in Iraq, you are clueless lemming who says and does as he told by his masters.

To: Rick The Realist

I am not here to debate the article. However, I am here to call you out.

If you think people didn't call Lincoln names while he was the president and sending troops to support the North, than you need to learn your history. Same goes for FDR.

But, the winners always write the "history". If you dig more, you will find true history and find out that there were many Americans who opposed FDR and said it openly. But in the end what he did was just and right, as determined by "history", so you don't hear about those people.

The same situation goes for Lincoln.

Secondly you get angry at the other poster for insulting people based on their job. Well well, hypocrisy at its best. Right after you complain about him insulting people based on their jobs, you insult him based on his views.

If you wish to debate and especially debate how others debate, follow your own guidance.

Debate facts, not people's intelligence(that is a debate you will never win). Few people have it and the rest won't admit they lack it.

P.S. I am not claiming I am intelligent. I just try and follow what I say.

==Anyone who can compare the USA, which has a stanch, although covert, non-Axis, friend in Australia, to the Nazis (or the current fascists ruining the world) is not worthy of citizenship in the USA. Our beliefs can and will carry us through, and will do so forever.==

Alas, it will not be our grammar, spelling or sentence structure.

Bukko in Australia- you need to be called out for lots of things. First, you deny the terrorist threat that even the democrat senator joe lieberman recognizes. the NIE released today said that al qaida will take over if we turn tail and run from iraq.
Secondly, you think what the US is doing in iraq is equivalent to the nazis? that is crazy. you are part of the loony left who blames America for everything bad in the world. Nazis invaded countries for plunder and mass murder; the US went into Iraq to spread democratic self-government, the first Muslim democracy ever. if u cant see the difference between our country and the nazis and their fellow islamo-nazis, you are truly delusional.
Thirdly, you put down people who disagree with you by saying they work in construction or at wal mart. that is the typical liberal elitist argument. you insult anyone who doesnt live in an ivory tower on some college campus, and u think anyone who works at wal mart is beneath you. i worked at walmart and the people there had more class and common sense than all of the liberal elitists like you combined. i'm glad you left America. we're a better stronger nation now that you have taken your views elsewhere.when our soldiers are dying in iraq now, you have the gall to call their commander-in-chief a monkey? if this was done in ww2 to fdr, or in the civil war to lincoln, you would have been sent to jail. you hate bush, but you dont admit he's kept us safe since 9/11 from more terror at home by fighting them before they get to us.

Un-Americans:

Anyone who can compare the USA, which has a stanch, although covert, non-Axis, friend in Australia, to the Nazis (or the current fascists ruining the world) is not worthy of citizenship in the USA. Our beliefs can and will carry us through, and will do so forever.

It's always amazing to read comment threads on the Washington Post and see how many people want ALL-OUT MASS MURDER. And this is in a paper that has a left-of-centre reputation, so presumably it's not even viewed by people who seek right-wing material. How many more are there like you working in Wal-Marts and construction sites who have the same bloodthirsty opinions but can't be bothered to read an online newspaper?

Tell me, you "kill 'em all" types, how are you any different to the Muslims that you hate and fear? How are you different to the Nazis? They too wanted to kill everyone who did not knuckle under to their will. Muslim fanatics and Nazis also believed they were threatened and had to kill or be killed. And like you, they believed they were 100% right.

YOU ARE THE SAME AS WHAT YOU HATE.

Fortunately, people like you do not have any power. You cannot order a single rocket launched; you cannot even fire a single bullet at a Muslim. You do not understand how the world works.

Mostly, the people in charge of America DO understand. I say MOSTLY, because President Cheney and Monkey Puppet Bush are as delusional as you. For the sake of the planet, I hope that wiser people are able to restrain them before the unleash a slaughter that will put the U.S. in the dark place of history next to Nazi Germany, Tamerlane and Hulagu.

You rightists probably don't know who the latter two are, even though they were two of the most murderous conquerors in history, who slaughtered hundreds of thousands of people in the same area where the U.S. is currently doing the same. You should read some history before you scream for the U.S. to follow in their blood-drenched footsteps.

At the same time, it gives me hope to see people like The Rev., Dimitry et. al. who have some humanity. I hope your views prevail, mates!

Reply to Neil B. (again),

It's all just one persons fault, right? Just one, only one - no others now or in the past, or ever again, right? Sorry, but I believe that your thoughts are amazingly lacking in thought.

Anyone agree?

K.C.

This is where we can all state our thoughts and should not be told we are insulting for them! I have no anger. I am happy. Right here in the good ol' US of A! Why are you not?

I shall not digress from the forum here. I believe very strongly that all peoples should be free and that your line is a line I cannot and will not tolerate....freedom for yourself you say???- and not others??? - that is wrong!!!

Reply to Master Guru and like minded:

Aside from whether prudent in the long run, we cannot realistically siege Iran and Syria - our army etc. is too broken and our money too spent down to be able to do that without maybe even more debt to buy new equipment, and a draft. I suggest perhaps in any case, change the maximum age for army entry to 70. Then most chickenhawks will have no excuse for why they aren't pitching in personally for this effort they consider very worthwhile. (It would be better than the current practice of letting in ex-felons and the feeble-minded, which is done because not enough able-bodied normals are joining, for obvious reasons...)

Really, we should move into Waziristan etc. on the Pak-Afghan border to clean up the real Al Qaeda. We almost did, but Rummy nixed it at the last minute back in 2005, fearing tension and destabilization with Mushie (see http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,288546,00.html .)

Master Guru

Thanks for the insult and name calling simply because you disagree with me.

I'm sure the Romans thought that Rome was "here forever" as well. We all know what happened there. If not read a U.S.A. history book, I'm sure it'll have something about it in there.

You may question my loyalty if it makes you feel more patriotic. I have a feeling that you don't know what true patriotism is. This is MY country sir. I believe it is MY duty to protect it from those who would do it harm. i.e.; you. Those who would lunge at the opportunity to go to war and invade a country regardless of the lack of reason to do so, and regardless of consequence.

In response to everything I stated in my original post, you were only able to call me a coward. You did not substantiate any kind of rebuttal towards my statements. There is an obvious reason you did not. Because you cannot. This must have made you very angry, and therefore left you with the only recourse of the defeated in denial; name-calling. As if the words "worst of cowards" would suddenly make all of my points invalid and my post seem ridiculous. Your behavior was and is predictable and sad.

You sir, I believe, are a plant. You probably comb numerous blogs and/or editorial pages in order to keep the party line going strong amidst it's obvious crumbling facade.

I will not turn this comments page into a running debate with you (for the sake of the other readers). So, I'm letting you know now, this is my final word. I will not respond no matter what else names you may call me. And since I know I'm not alone, I'll let others take it from here.

By the way, your name "Master Guru" is redundant. It's like "Professor Teacher", "Officer Policeman", or "Fisherman Angler".
Just thought you should know.

Have a Great Day!

To K.C., who's comment was:
"Keeping up the denial and staying the course will only result in our demise."

I believe you to be the worst of cowards for having capitulated to the enemy (if you are even on our side). The U.S.A is here forever. Get used to it.

To Dc in TN:

First, thanks for reposting my thoughts....

No other President has done what you suggest, "drag this country down with him" - this is minor compared to our overall history. Please grab a history book, please! A U.S.A one!

Let's call it what it is, "Escalation". Would somebody please stop these guys!

Where do I start? Hmmm...

Saddam was a bad man back in the 80's when the US sent Rumsfeld over with a bunch of WMD's to give to Iraq to use against Iran. Saddam tried them out on a few of his own villages and decided they were good. He asked for more and we gave them to him. At the same time we were secretly giving arms to Iran to use against Iraq. Remember Ollie North?

From a geopolitical standpoint Having a secular Saddam in power was far better than the mess we've got now. Sure, he was a bad man, but he provided an integral balance to the region. We were stupid to remove him from power. And don't give me any of that human rights B.S. If that were the case, as someone here posted, we would be in Darfur and a number of other countries around the world. It's the oil folks.

As for Al-Queda, or "The Base"; yet another well funded creation of the US via the CIA to fight the Ruskies in Afghanistan. We created them, trained them and for all we know taught them the same guerilla tactics they use today against our own forces. Stupid indeed!

It is well known that the majority of the 9/11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia. It is less well known that 45% of the insurgents in Iraq are also Saudis not Iranians. Hmmmm...

The whole thing reeks of stupidity, pride, and greed. There is no reasonable explanation. There can be no clean exit strategy. This has been decades in the making and it is all the US's fault. When we stop meddling in the affairs of sovereign states with whom we disagree with, then we will see a reduction in terrorist activity. Till then, we'll keep on sending our brothers and sisters, sons and daughters, moms and dads, to die for our "freedom" and saying, with a straight face, that we support our troops.

I love this country, but I'm afraid that we have some serious work ahead of us before I can be proud of the flag again.

Keeping up the denial and staying the course will only result in our demise.

In reply to Master Guru,

Since you brought up the subject of doing the opposite: Bushes presidency reminds me of the Greek Tragedy of "Oedipus". He knew what he wanted when he was elected and he knew what he did not want his presidency to be. However every action he takes now is to prevent the worst case scenario for his legacy. But every action he takes brings his worst case scenario into a reality. And just as it was with Oedipus, bush's only concern is what is best for himself and his legacy, but not his people. Bush will fulfill his prophecy as a failed president; I just don't want him to drag this country down with him.

Posted by: Master Guru

"I strongly suggest this administration (and future ones) start doing the total opposite of what the liberal cowards would do - which is run - we should show the Islamic world that we will fight to the very bitter end, and not in a nice way either.
I would siege Iran and Syrian and start their total destruction, day by day making life more like hell there, until they change their evil ways. You say what about the innocent? There are none there. They all know what is going on and support it. They all look the other way. We should have no pity for any population that supports terrorism. Removing any capacity that Iran and Syria has to wage war in anyway will calm Iraq immediately.
I suggest we do it in the swiftest of manners.
Why? Islamic Radicalism is not going to end by kissing their asses. Kicking their asses will do it. And I mean hard!
Wars are fought to be won. We need to stop complaining, get on with the WAR and let them all know we will continue to kick ass forever.
The war will spread and involve Iran directly eventually anyway. Why do you think we have them surrounded? To gather as much data as possible and be ready for what we know will happen. Anyone who thinks these states will all of a sudden become friendly is so full of idiocy it makes me sick. They want Jihad - I say we make them beg for peace!
The writing is on the wall. Read, please read. Then read the treaty that will come by these means (and no other)!"

Judy,

If someone wants to serve in combat they join the Marines and Army or their guard units. Not the Navy and Air Force, my cousin is in Qatar, a very cushy assignment from what I hear.

Posted by: Judy M

"To spillover 100. One of my daughters is currently a captain in the Air Force, she returned from Qatar last February. My son returned home from Iraq a year ago this month. My other daughter is currently looking to join the Navy. My children feel a need to serve and protect this country from the evil that is just around the corner. Now, where are your children? "

SGT Smith,

Number one: "you must have faith in your Commander in Chief as we all do."; is a false statement". You do not speak for all military personnel. Number two: as you so bluntly state about those troops who want to leave that they should have thought twice before they singed up and this applies to you. As for you as a soldier it is we the people who tell you where to go and when to fight, it is not the soldiers right or mission to tell the Citizens of the United States of America where they are going to fight and that we have to support them. As for your knowing more about what is going on in Iraq, you have to consider that the troops are the last ones to be given factual news by the military, it's the best way to keep you fighting.

As for the Iraqi Parliament; if this was the Fandango, our dance partner would be a rotten corpse that we will have to carry until our back breaks.

As for it being the Democrats being the cause for failure? My congressman is conservative Republican John Duncan and he was against the invasion of Iraq.

Now return to duty and stop wasting time on the internet.

Posted by: SGT Smith, D

"Democrats all decided "Hey let's look good to the U.S. people and do something that might make us look good so that we can have a Democratic President in office in 2008." This is war people not a video game. It will take time and you must have faith in your Commander in Chief as we all do."

Reply to Neil B.,

I strongly suggest this administration (and future ones) start doing the total opposite of what the liberal cowards would do - which is run - we should show the Islamic world that we will fight to the very bitter end, and not in a nice way either.

I would siege Iran and Syrian and start their total destruction, day by day making life more like hell there, until they change their evil ways. You say what about the innocent? There are none there. They all know what is going on and support it. They all look the other way. We should have no pity for any population that supports terrorism. Removing any capacity that Iran and Syria has to wage war in anyway will calm Iraq immediately.
I suggest we do it in the swiftest of manners.

Why? Islamic Radicalism is not going to end by kissing their asses. Kicking their asses will do it. And I mean hard!

Wars are fought to be won. We need to stop complaining, get on with the WAR and let them all know we will continue to kick ass forever.

The war will spread and involve Iran directly eventually anyway. Why do you think we have them surrounded? To gather as much data as possible and be ready for what we know will happen. Anyone who thinks these states will all of a sudden become friendly is so full of idiocy it makes me sick. They want Jihad - I say we make them beg for peace!

The writing is on the wall. Read, please read. Then read the treaty that will come by these means (and no other)!

Bill,

Could it be that there was a Surge II all along and maybe even a Surge III? It was well known at the beginning of Surge I that it was not enough troops, then that total was doubled because it took one soldier in support for every soldier actually in combat. I believe it was planned all along for a larger contingency of troops in the over all surge (escalation), however the larger number would have been impossible to achieve with the American public and congress. So with nickel and dime increases the number will continue to swell until Bush achieves the goal of saving his legacy or he leaves office.

In the end he will have achieved more than his goal of two regime changes, it will be three regime changes; The Taliban, Sadam, and in Nov. 2008, the GOP.

The only way to win in Iraq is to fund research into time travel so we can go back and not get involved in the first place. Better yet, we could go back and put the man who the US voted for in 2000 at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.

//not saying that Gore as President would have somehow stopped the terror attacks back in 2001.

///definitely saying we would not be in Iraq if the Supreme Court selected Gore.

//// sad that 3618 brave young men and women will never return home.

SonOfLiberty

Well you got a poor sampling or maybe its just the kind of people you hang with. I bet they also vote similarly. But the troops in transit do talk about congress and that is who they are upset with.

Next I did not start the coup comment, some jerk did and said he hoped the army takes out Bush. I said it was more likely given that pro war position that they would take out congress.

I know that since Brown V. Board of Education, we in the States have been all about integration, so it may go against our American Values, but there was never a Brown decision in Iraq.

What is wrong with allowing the factions in Iraq to split off into a confederacy, or a commonwealth or seperate countries altogether? Why should we try to get groups that hate each other to try to play nice with each other?

I know there are probably regional concerns and there is oil revenue involved, but seriously, how much worse can it get than it is rught now?

I'm not in Iraq. I never have been. However, it seems to me that the average Iraqi on the street was probably way better off under Sadam's rule than they are now. Sure, he was an iron-fisted dictator and evildoer, but he was able to hold the country together. Provide reliable electricity, functional sanitation and keep law and order in his streets.

Hussain was removed because Prince Bush wanted to have his crusade and finish what his father started. I just think he was focused on getting the 'guy who tried to kill his daddy' and he couldn't be bothered with the then what.

Well guess what Prince Bush. The blood of the american service personnel is on your hands. I hope it was worth it.

In the end, this war can go one of two ways. The public support will vanish and the US will pull out saying we've done what we came to do, and just like in Vietnam, as soon as we're gone the enemy, whoever they may be, will take over. Or like in Korea, it will require a perpetual presence.

Wait for surge(N + 1) to come

Master Guru, what do you propose we actually do? Considering the points others have made, about not having a specific enemy and being in the midst of civil war, how can you define success and how to do it in a place like that? American being a great nation doesn't answer the question, you have to actually answer it.

There were no terrorists in Iraq pre-invasion, although there were some ill-minded people. For those that think "they will come here" need to wake up and realize this war has created terrorists. Their recruitment is up, their active cells are up, their popularity is at an all time high. Iraq may be thought of as a war against terrorism by propaganda fed neo-cons, but the truth is that it has fueled terrorism more than anyone ever thought possible. If this were a chess game, checkmate would have already been called in an Arabic tongue. There is no solution to this; there is no way to solve a monstrous problem of global proportions that was ill-thought out from the beginning. The sooner troops with draw, the less extremism will continue grow. The fact that it is there now and as popular as it is cannot be undone, and that is a direct consequence of the same myopic minds that led us into this mess to begin with.

My brother is leaving for Bagdad in a few days. I am afraid for him and his family. he is a doctor, he will not be out patroling but he will see first hand more causilities than I would ever hope for anyone to see. My family history has been tied to war, my father was in vietnam, my grandfathers in world war II and their fathers were in WW I and their fathers in earlier wars. I feel I have a right to be patriotic for the USA. but this War is creating many more problems then it is resolving. I am afraid for our nations future. We have created many enemies and they hate us for many reasons. I only hope we can learn to forgive each other, but it feels like the war has gone on too long for a peaceful reconciliation.

The war has grown so much momentum that it seems to be out of control. Too many people have invested interests in continuing the occupation.

First of all, I don't have a cure. This is literally a bloody mess. I do know some hard facts which never get much press. They are critical to understand for a solution:

1. A lot of people think as if this war has two sides, the U.S. versus the terrorists. This is plain dumb. Dumb as a rock, even. In fact, to think this way guarantees defeat for us. Sun Tzu says know your enemy. There are at least FIVE sides to this conflict: the U.S., Sunnis, Shia, Kurds, and a dozen factions loosely grouped together and labeled 'terrorists'.

2. This has become a religious war. It doesn't matter what you think. They think it, and they act accordingly. They are serving their God.

3. This is a civil war, and it is starting to piss off the neighborhood. Let us not mince words. It could easily escalate into a regional conflict, pulling in Israel and Palestine for starters. See #2.

3. Armored formations will NOT solve this. It is NOT like WWII, or any other war in which we had ALLIES and fought against COUNTRIES. They don't even have uniforms. This is guerrilla warfare squared. It ignores military protocol and borders. See #2.

4. Iraq will NEVER remotely be like America. America is Christian-based. Must I really explain this? My dog is smarter than this, and he eats poop.

5. We are there, in part, for oil interests. How large a part is debatable, but it IS in the equation. Our oil supply is a strategic asset and a matter of national security. We import MOST of our oil, and without it, our economy would grind to a screeching halt. Believe it.

6. If we were there in Iraq for humanitarian reasons, we would also have a TON of troops in Darfur. We do not. Darfur makes Saddam's Iraq look like summer camp. So, it must be something else.

7. We are going to stay in Iraq as long as possible, under the Bush administration. I don't care what side you're on, this one is clear, right? The problem is that I'm not sure of the motivation. See #5 and #6.

8. Motivation defines strategy. Why didn't we send 250K+ troops in from the start, like some generals asked for? In fact, these generals were marginalized because that move would not fit the strategy. What is the strategy? I don't know what it is, but I know what it isn't. We have only 30% of the troops in Iraq that we sent in the first Gulf War, even today. It's barely enough for an occupation, let alone a decisive win.

9. Lastly, "Surge II". It is not enough to make it a win. I don't think it's meant to, so I don't like it.

George Bush may be the reincarnation of Lyndon Johnson.

What ever happened to the days when the king lead his army onto the battlefield?...

The correct word for "surge" is ESCALATION. Remember Viet Nam? It went from 2,000 "advisors" to 500,000 troops. 13 years later, 5 mlllion Vietnamese and Cambodians killed, hundreds of thousands tortured and murdered, more bombs than World Wat II, the "Vietnamization" of the war, Agent Orange, Napalm, everything but nuclear weapons. The US lost that war, and the same will happen with this war of aggression. The only difference with the Iraq war is that it's for the oil companies benefit. There's $20 trillion of oil in the ground in Iraq. Do the math. Bush has.

After watching Nightline last night and the hell created in Iraq for our troops and the people of Iraq by this Administration and the members of Congress that voted for this war, They had better bring this war to a screeching halt, or they are all going down. To quote one soldier, our leaders have the brain of a two year old and should come spent a 15 month tour pulling patrols every six hours without proper rest. If these idiots want another surge, let them go do it. Wars are not won by spin.

Of all the comments listed, none indicate a clue as to the real reason why the U.S. is in Iraq ...

I'll give you a hint: petrodollars

The Bush Administration is a joke. The only reason why we went to "war" (the war that the bush administration caused by planting bombs in the WTC) was to get oil, land, and take over land. The government is a huge joke.

Always amazing to me, how many people STILL think, staying in Iraq is a good thing. As if staying has anything to do with 9-11, or Islamic extremism.

The only way for Americans to feel safe again, is to win the minds of Muslims.
Killing them only breeds more extremists.
Occupying their land, only breeds more extremists.

Going into Iraq, may have been the dumbest thing, we could have done after 9-11.
We diverted attention away from the extremists, and basically invited them to Iraq, to train & to kill our servicemen/women.

The bottomline... we're never going to be able to kill ALL the extremists, as y'all want. And trying to do so, as y'all want, is just breeding more extremists.
The irony of Iraq, is that extremist recruitment is growing, while the US Military, is having more & more trouble recruiting.
People should actually stop & think, sometimes. Rather than following the party-line, to our demise.

Maybe it is time we, started using propaganda to start swaying people opinion in the area.. Like a MLK of Iraq.. Show these people that these "freedom fighters" insurgents are hurting the people.. Make the population work against them, rat them out, and have them cleared out..

For those who think they will come here and turn our youth in to Islamic fighters, that is because you are crap parents. I have children that think for themselves and have made their own choices in matters with logic and sense. some people put so much into religion, that when it fails them, they seek a new one. Faith is not noxious, it is something everyone holds on to.. faith that everything will work out, faith that their children will make good decisions. Faith in themselves when trying some thing new.. Faith is what allows you to do the backflip on a MX bike. Believe it can be done, and faith in atempting it, and drive to do it better.

The Problem with Radicals is they make people have faith that their extreme actions will cause a greater good. How many people would strap a bomb to themselves, if a priest told you to? not many. We need someone like a MLK to bring faith to the Iraqi's that their land would be better thru true religious teachings.. ( the Koran has good things in it like the Bible) The radicals are following the extreme because the true are not swaying the masses with persuasive speeches.

I think what most of these cowards, complainers and conspiracy thinkers need to do is to go spend a few years in the Middle East or anywhere else in the world. When you return, and you will, you will have true respect for America, what it stands for, and it's hard working people. Please go! Go!

I'm not really surprised at those people who are offended that politicians would "abandon" their military due to "a few peacenicks" or that these "terrorists" would come here, kill all of us and convert the remaining to "their noxious religion". That is terror. That is the GOAL of a terrorist.
Anyone with half a brain knows that the .00001% of muslims who would actually go to the US and do anything at all would never be able to convert the citizens of the US to Islam. That's just idiotic. Seriously, that's a clear admission that they have absolutely no faith in the people of America. Pathetic.
Those that think politicans are abandoning the military because of a few peacenics are obviously surrounded by others who believe as they do. This is "representative democracy". Oddly enough, it is what those very people espouse so highly and intend to force upon other nations, yet are offended when the very citizens of our nation opine against them and, oddly enough, have an effect upon the direction of our nation. While our representatives have a substancial level of independance and responsibility to avoid making rash decisions based upon mass anger and fear (like how the patriot act went through so fast), they are also representatives of our citizens - as well as the minority.
This nation isn't run like a Jury. There is not supposed to be a right or left answer. There is a compromise with the goal of supporting as much of the views of as many of the people - not ALL THE VIEWS of 51%. Welcome to reality.
Those peacenics are just as much citizens as those born-again-conservative-hate-monger who want to forment fear of other religions and fear of other societies and fear and fear and fear. Welcome to reality.
I can't stand the right-wing's inability to lead this nation, as it did so well in the previous Bush administration - a man who was smart, skilled, experienced, and had the balls to make his own decisions based in fact and experience rather than his "gut", his christian beliefs (i.e. his gut), and FOX's broadcasts which simply reflect everything he says with a pat on the head.

As long as we are in the face of Islamic people killing - good people or bad- we are the evil american. A scapegoat for all that is bad (just how saddam used us) rather than targeting their hate upon others in the same area, as GHB enabled.

If you are terrified that Islamic militants are going to come here, get the hell out of their town and stop screaming for them to fight back.

Don't be an idiot. Just take a step back and try to learn about your own nation, not someone elses.

==Why can't we come thru and Bitzkeg these insurgents==

Refer to the anti-insurgency manual by Gen. Petreus.

!! you liberals are so naive thinking that if we just leave iraq the terrorists will just vanish.

Rick the Realist,

I am not surprised by neanderthals who believe that if the nation keeps on doing, ostensibly, what it has been doing in Iraq, that somehow (and in spite of the facts to the contrary) that there will be a different outcome.

The best and brightest minds in the military (none in DC), have already said that the solution to the problem will not come about as a result of military action!

So why keep shooting? The noticable 'just keep shooting in Iraq mindset' of the past four plus years, is not helping to resolve the real problem!

You know, yes pulling out now will probably make Iraq a breeding ground for more terrorism and a source of strength for Iran and the other anti-zionist movements. However, people pretend like keeping the troops there is going to make a difference. Just eliminating Saddam Hussein made all of this possible. Right now our troops are just tackling dummies while the country solidifies into an all out state of anarchy. It was a mistake to attack to begin with, but to try to run a country from foreign soil with 100,000 or 200,000 troops is ludicrous. The country isn't any better off with us there. We ruined Iraq by destabilizing it, now all the neo-cons and their allies argue that since we ruined Iraq, we have to fix it again no matter the cost to our own country? This is a perpetual war machine that uses self-justifying actions in order to remain in a constant state of war and fear. The Iraqis had nothing to do with 9/11, and let's face it, we aren't going to be able to stabilize this country if they don't want to be stable themselves. It's Iraq II: The Search for Curley's Gold. Nobody knows why we came there, nobody knows when we'll leave, and the only answer we get from anyone is "support the troops" and "we can still succeed." I'll tell you how you support the troops, realize your mission was a failure. Vietnam, just like this one, is another war without justification based squarely on political grounds. How many young people to we have to kill and scar for life before we decide that a boneheaded plan and a random ally probably isn't a good strategy for waging war?

Sorry for the triple entry... there's been a problem.

First off.. Winning the War in Iraq.. What is that? no more insurgents? A Democracy? Turning Baghdad into Philly? What is completing this "job" people speak of? People do jobs to get a result, what is this result we seek? Second, When we decide to no longer occupy Iraq, what do we hope they will do with their new freedom? women voting, power to bare arms, freedom of religion, tolerate of others. (somethings are limited by their religious rules) Finally, this war, Will Not end the area's opinion on Islamic dominated area.. Their religion is so impregnated into their actions that they cannot imagine not being ruled by it..

I don't hear the answers, and I don't hear those questions?

Also this is War, is not some pussy-foot boot camp.. this is Hardcore killing, and blowing stuff up War.. So why is one of the greatest Armies in world, pussy-footing around, and not clearing houses, and insurgents. In Vietnam, we came in cleared villages, and if no weapon were found moved on.. Why can't we do the same in Iraq. Why can't we come thru and Bitzkeg these insurgents. Hit hard and hit fast.. We spend so much time in one area, setting up base camps and giving time for our enemy to learn our patterns, and regroup.. Keep them running, and keep them on their toes. A long drawn out war, will build more retaliation from locals, then a fast hard change that is easily accepted into peoples routines..

First off.. Winning the War in Iraq.. What is that? no more insurgents? A Democracy? Turning Baghdad into Philly? What is completing this "job" people speak of? People do jobs to get a result, what is this result we seek? Second, When we decide to no longer occupy Iraq, what do we hope they will do with their new freedom? women voting, power to bare arms, freedom of religion, tolerate of others. (somethings are limited by their religious rules) Finally, this war, Will Not end the area's opinion on Islamic dominated area.. Their religion is so impregnated into their actions that they cannot imagine not being ruled by it..

I don't hear the answers, and I don't hear those questions?

Also this is War, is not some pussy-foot boot camp.. this is Hardcore killing, and blowing stuff up War.. So why is one of the greatest Armies in world, pussy-footing around, and not clearing houses, and insurgents. In Vietnam, we came in cleared villages, and if no weapon were found moved on.. Why can't we do the same in Iraq. Why can't we come thru and Bitzkeg these insurgents. Hit hard and hit fast.. We spend so much time in one area, setting up base camps and giving time for our enemy to learn our patterns, and regroup.. Keep them running, and keep them on their toes. A long drawn out war, will build more retaliation from locals, then a fast hard change that is easily accepted into peoples routines..

I am kind of amused by the ones that are proud of the Army fighting in Irak for USA's freedom. You kinda lost focus there and forgot that Irak had nothing to do in 9/11. You're only there for the oil... although one could think that could be freedom... for your gas-guzling SUV's...
If you want to fight for freedom then fight all the laws that Bush's administration has passed in the wake of the terror attacks and that are depriving all US citizens from their constitutional rights... a little bit more every day...

I am kind of amused by the ones that are proud of the Army fighting in Irak for USA's freedom. You kinda lost focus there and forgot that Irak had nothing to do in 9/11. You're only there for the oil... although one could think that could be freedom... for your gas-guzling SUV's...
I you want to fight for freedom then fight all the laws that Bush's administration has passed in the wake of the terror attacks and that are depriving all US citizens from their constitutional rights... a little bit more every day...

I am kind of amused by the ones that are proud of the Army fighting in Irak for USA's freedom. You kinda lost focus there and forgot that Irak had nothing to do in 9/11. You're only there for the oil... although one could think that could be freedom... for your gas-guzling SUV's...
I you want to fight for freedom then fight all the laws that Bush's administration has passed in the wake of the terror attacks and that are depriving all US citizens from their constitutional rights... a little bit more every day...

I am astounded. This same newspaper, the Washington ComPost has a front page story up now how the terrorists- al qaeda, hezbollah, sadrists, are scheming to attack the foundations of our way of life. and from reading this blog, it would seem that the terrorists are all gone and if we just withdraw (aka surrender wave the white flag beg for mercy) the terrorists will go away. wrong. we need to be on guard against the terrorists- if we leave iraq, they will come here. you think they care about their own countries, living normally? wrong again. they only care about killing infidels- that means all of US!! you liberals are so naive thinking that if we just leave iraq the terrorists will just vanish. they will actually grow in number since we will have seen to be a paper tiger and it won't be long before they are coming here in droves killing our citizens in all of our cities, big and small and converting us to their noxious faith.

The US knew the Japanese were going to bomb Pearl Harbor, but they needed something drastic to shift public opinion.. our so often heralded leaders, military and political, let it happen...exactly what Bush and Rumsfeld did. They even say so much in the papers the hawks wrote well before 9-11. Do you believe 3 steel frame buildings will just collapse because of fire and a shock wave (WT7)?...why wasn't Giuliani in WT7, where his command center was located? How did he know not to be there? Why was the term "pull", a term used only in controlled demolitions..repeatedly heard the day of 9-11...9-11 and the Iraq invasion are the biggest psychological experiment ever perpetrated on the ignorant sheepish masses called the US public...if you believed it..shame on you..time and science will show that steel buildings do not collapse at freefall speed without the help of explosives...go back and look at videos of the collapses...believe your eyes not what Bush, Cheney and company tell you!

I cannot stand Bush's chameleon like ways and the way he loves to hide behind things. Now he wants to listen to generals and he insists on letting the generals on the ground tell us how the war should be fought. Why didn't he listen to those same experts when they told him invading iraq was a bad idea because of the political factions and instability that would result from toppling hussein's regime. Why didn't he listen to those same military experts when they told him that if we were going to invade iraq we would need to have a much larger troop presence at the beginning of the invasion than we did in order to stabilize the country in the aftermath. (Remember when Senator McCain pushed for that a long time ago. Google it and you'll find it) Or how about when military commanders who were in charge of the initial push into afghanistan began cursing when they got the call to pull troops out of that area and send them to iraq. (you can google that too if you don't believe me) They began cursing because we had al quaida on the run and we were crushing the Taliban. Now the taliban is growing strong again and al quaida is just about back to full strength. How about the military experts who wanted more armor for the troops and after repeated pleas only received what they needed starting with last year. Bush is a liar. But if he wants to start this trend of listening to the experts on things I say fine. Just be consistent. Let legal experts make decisions about whether someone should be pardoned for a crime instead of his political friends. Let medical experts make decisions about stem-cell research instead of his political friends. Let scientific experts make decisions about climate change instead of his friends in the oil and gas industry who have for years used their influence to shut up the warnings about global warming.
Listening to the experts is a really good strategy Mr. President. That's how we know you're not sincere about it. Because you don't listen to experts if the information they give out condradicts what you believe. And even worse if someone criticizes you you try to shut them up, fire them, or ruin their career. I feel sorry for our troops. They never should have been put in this situation and I think the only way we are going to make the decision to leave iraq is if there is a major terrorist attack here in America. I just saw the briefing on cnn from homeland security about the potential threat of an attack and once again those tied to Bush continue to lie. The representative said that the president has increased the amount of first responders in order to prepare for a terrorist attack. Wrong. More and more state governments have had to cut money out of their budgets for first responders due to less federal aid. All of our federal resources seem to be tied up in the $500 billion experiment in the middle east. If states have less money for first responders how can they have more first responders?
And for you guys who feel we need to take the war to iraq because we need to defeat al-quaida over there to prevent them from coming here. How are we going to stop al-quaida from getting across our borders when we can't even stop illegal immigrants from doing the same thing? There have been rumors about Al-quaida already established in mexico. And for those who feel if we just stay in Iraq long enough it will stabilize. I hate to tell you this but that area of the world will never be truly stable. They have been fighting each other for almost 2000 years. And I beileve that they will only stop fighting when Jesus returns. All we can hope for is to focus on areas of the world where we know God has led us to intervene and this president clearly doesn't know how to listen to God's voice or direction despite his boasting of his Christian faith and morals. It's wrong to "murder" babies in the name of stem-cell research but its o.k. to "murder" someone by ruining their career and livelihood just because they disagree with you like Senator Wilson or Richard Clarke. Bush makes me laugh.

==My children feel a need to serve and protect this country from the evil that is just around the corner.==

If your children's service is to expand American hegemony through the force of arms worldwide, I advise them to desist from this destructive activity. It endangers the future of our country, puts their lives at needless risk and further militarizes our world. It has very little to do with legitimate defense of America as a nation, but everything to do with expanding our "empire of bases". I am not willing to pay for this self-destructive policy, even if some Americans are willing to participate in it.

Same old same old. Brainwashed 'have faith in' the President blather to support more Americans dying in his screwed up game of toy soldiers. What has changed? Let's see.

We've found out Saddam had no ties to 9/11, no ties to al quaeda, no weapons of mass destruction. We've found out our political leaders have done all they could to strip America of its civil liberties in the name of protecting us from guys who kill far fewer Americans than our own homegrown corporations (lung cancer anyone? It's cool, everybody does it!). We've found out our leaders and their flunkies kill and torture prisoners (oh hey, it's just a few bad apples and a few secret prisons, nothing to get upset about!).

And now we're in the middle of a civil war we created by setting up a power vacuum likely to end up setting the stage for another world war, as the result of our leaders' incompetence. But hey, don't worry! We've got more exhausted troops to rerun through the gauntlet, after we let them out of the roach infested hospitals, that is if they haven't committed suicide from the mental strain first.

As I saw somewhere else, and wish I knew the attribution, 'I knew they planned to export democracy to Iraq, I just wished they'd left a little here.'

Surg-ical or Ethnic Cleansing...

that is what it will come down to in order for the U.S.A. to ever secure a win, in my opinion, in Iraq!

The reason the United States cannot win in Iraq, other than declaring itself the winner is because the world-wide community and most Americans cannot stomach the thought of America engaging in more surges or operations that would be tantamount to American genocide.

In order for America to accomplish its truculent and self-serving aims in that part of the world, many more lives, including many more innocent individuals would have to be snuffed out. And then what? America is simply stuck in Iraq, and Washington does not want to loose face!

The U.S.A. should declare itself the winner (Saddam is gone), reduce its number of troops, allow the Iraqi government to take the lead while the U.S.A. (or a UN force) could intervene and play a backup role. Then the troops will be free, and the U.S.A. can go and pick on another nation like Eritrea, surely they must be threatening us somehow!

Britain, is removing another 500 of its soldiers, hmm. We need to have a political surge take place in Washington DC. Ay ay surge!

Tim B,

Who are we liberating the Iraqis FROM? Saddam is gone, the foreign fighter element there is less than 5% of the population. The ones doing all the killing are Iraqi Shiites and Sunnis. Are we liberating Iraq from Iraqi Shiites? No, we sided with them, only to find them to be murderous barbarians capable only of running death squads and torture chambers but completely incapable of governing. Are we liberating Iraq from the Sunnis? The Shiites sure hope so; they've been using us to kill the Sunnis for the past 4+ years so they can have the country all for themselves and their grand ally, Iran.

Now we're going to let Peter Pace (to be replaced as JCC) tell us we need to send more troops for the next surge. Note Gen. Pace doesn't tell us where those more troops can be gotten from, without a draft (I can't imagine that Bush and Cheney, draft-dodgers both of them, would even try to institute a draft in which the children of their rich friends and powerful people might have to serve).

I'm sure Surge II (actually the sixth surge, not the second, historically speaking) will succeed in producing political progress just as well as the five surges that have preceded it. In other words, we'll be there until hell freezes over if national unity and political stability are the only acceptable outcomes in Iraq before we leave.

I'm glad my kids aren't serving there but to all those with loved ones in Iraq, you have my deepest sympathies, for the losses you have already suffered and for all those to come.

Tim B,

Apparently you never read the fictional Turner Diaries where a bunch of American "patriots" brings down the government and the Army by a series of little sorties, al Qaeda-style. They must have a copy of the book. They added a new twist, killing themselves and their neighbors, creating a continuing atmosphere of anarchy. The only possible solution is many, many more troops and the installation of a military dictatorship. We would "win" at a great price and ObL would be delighted to see us expend even more resources. What happens in Iraq does not impact al Qaeda other than providing them with more recruits.

Doesn't this remind you of "take that hill" while the opponents say "defend that hill". 20 years later the jungle is overgrown and the hill remains. Those that survive have nightmares.

To spillover 100. One of my daughters is currently a captain in the Air Force, she returned from Qatar last February. My son returned home from Iraq a year ago this month. My other daughter is currently looking to join the Navy. My children feel a need to serve and protect this country from the evil that is just around the corner. Now, where are your children?

So who are the good guys and who are the bad guys? I thought I knew during the Vietnam War. Maybe I was fooling myself.

So who are the good guys and who are the bad guys? I thought I knew during the Vietnam War. Maybe I was fooling myself.

To those folks so committed to Surge II & "finishing" the job, where are your sons & daughters? As to those who want to pull out "now" - puleez! Go back to your theories&ivory towers. Support our young courageous military by providing them a rational strategy maximizing our assets and recognizing our manpower limits. Unless of course, we go to the VietNam model of more (ie, draft more young people) is better?

VultureTX,

You do realize, of course, that military protocol forbids soldiers from publicly admonishing their commanders (of which the president is chief). I have 12 friends currently serving in the armed forces (enlisted, young, and poor), and to a man, they think the war is and was a terrible idea. However, in public, and generally with each other, they keep their mouths shut about it. That's military protocol, and it's essential to the cohesiveness of their force, and it's part of the less-and-less obvserved policy that the military is supposed to be a non-political entity.

Also, wtf?!?! The way you talk with glee about the military overthrow of representative government by a military coup really inspires me. How can I be a patriot like you?

==We're dealing with CULT members, folks. Nothing we say - no amount of lip service or "diplomacy" - will ever stop them from trying to reach their goal of an Islamic Radical-dominated planet. Americans need to be worrying more about their children, and their grandchildren, and their great-grandchildren, instead of only concentrating on a "quick fix" or a fast pullout. Do you really want them to live in a twisted, backwards future of subdued women and violent, brainwashed cult-extremists? Not me.==

I strongly disagree. I consider your position to be very similar to that of a cult member, albeit a strange one - a cult of the US as a hegemonic ruler over the rest of the world's people, forcing a uniform American-like structure on the rest of the world at a point of a gun.

It is useless to argue with a cult member, because of the severe brainwashing. One gets a littany of rehearsed lines about national greatness, resolve and victory as well as bizzare notions that have very little to do with observable reality.

Therefore, if you and others like you would like to act out your private nationalistic jihad against this or that group that isn't behaving in a way you demand of them, you are free to form a mercenary group, raise funds world-wide and go to whatever place on the globe you desire or can fight your way into in order to further your aims. There is already a number of outfits that do that, also cultists like you, so you should fit right in.

However, since your goals endanger our country and the future of my children, I will do all in my power to deny you the government funds to further your insanity. I hope, since most of the citizens of my country do not wish to further your goals of perpetual war either, both Democratic and Republican voters will continue electing more and more representatives who will eventually deny the war party the funds to continue their pillaging of the planet.

Over and over again, the war supporters around here won't deal with the issue, is the government in Iraq that we're supposed to be defending, even on the "right" side in the first place? US hater Al Sadr is a part of that government, and many in it have ties to Iran. (Remember Ahmed Chalabi? Why did BushCo support him so much to lead post-invasion Iraq?) I do agree that it is risky to just pull out pell-mell, but you should be offering better ways to deal with what's there, not just more of the same. (Maybe you can bid for that "solution to the Iraq war" that some guy put on Ebay, see Link but I couldn't find the bid on Ebay.)

We can't win until there is a peaceful settlement. If we surge, and force the signing of the oil law, we still have problems. We can pull back and surround the oil fields to protect corporate interests from a hostile population. For sure, we will have no friends but we will be heavily fortified. They will just kill us outside of Iraq. We have to accept that we need to help them put in place a government structure, acceptable to them, meaning the clerics. The clerics have been marginalized and there won't be peace until they are appeased. The population wants the clerics as part of the government. Might not work in the US but Iraq is not the US. Dictating to them is not working. Leaving or staying requires a new plan.

War is war. We voted on it. We sent troops to the region. We are fighting to liberate a country. Thank God America's state of mind in 1944 was not where it is today. We are fighting ignorance and it is ugly because they are fighting back in a cowardly way. They hit and run because the force of our army is too great to take on head to head. We have already won. It will just take time, and unfortunatly lives to finish it. But these are soldiers, its their job and given the chance they will finish it with pride. Nobody wants to see our troops die, but to label them all as not so well off minorities and ask them to come home before they've done whats asked of them is the worst insult. Ask an Army soldier to recite his creed and he will say: I will always put the mission first, I will never accept defeat, I will never quit, I Will never leave a fallen comrade. Listen to the men taking the risks, not the overweight politicians whose greatest effort is pointing their finger at someone else.

TO: SGT Smith, D:

We need SO much more input from our guys on the ground in Iraq like you. People here are so incredibly ignorant as to what the big picture really is. The people who want to hurry up and start pulling out our troops don't have a clue as to what the ramifications of that stupid action would be to future generations of Americans. We've already opened a can of worms now; which means that America is now, and will be, an enemy of Islamic Radical groups for many - many years. Islamic Radicals hate with a passion that the US is standing up to them on their own "home turf". Of course they do! Because they want to keep what they believe is "progress" they have made in this stupid long-term plan. They've underestimated the US so badly; and they are so brainwashed... that every small homicide bombing is to them a huge victory. But in reality, in the big picture - they're just a dangerous nuisance. They kill a few in the name of their "religion", and that makes big news... but what is so rare to see on the news is that while they're carrying out these little stone-age attacks, we're dropping 800lb. bombs on terrorist hideouts and training areas, removing them from the earth like the cockroaches they are.

The enemy MUST be forcibly subdued to respect different religions and lifestyles, to give their women the rights they deserve and that they are entitled to as human beings - and finally give up this hopeless dream they have of converting the entire world into Radical Muslim extremists.

You guys are real American heroes. Keep fighting this good fight, and as you do... KNOW that there are still a lot of hardheaded patriots here that support every single thing that you guys are doing. I'm just one of them.

If we leave Iraq before the area is moderately stable, Iran will come in and fill the power vacuum. A nuclear armed fanatic Iran will then be the dominant Middle East power with visions of a new Persian Empire.

If we listen to the traitors and fools of today in ten years time Iran will be in control of the Middle East and we will wonder what we were thinking. Iran will have trillions of dollars of oil money, nuclear armed intercontinental ballistic missiles, and a rabid mentality where the Theory of Deterrence does not apply.

The net result will be the world cowering to a fanatic Iranian regime or war that will kill millions on both sides. The solution is staying the course now or facing a much worse threat in near future.

It was popular for the French to pull out of Rhineland in 1936 and Neville Chamberlain's appeasement policies. If some gumption was shown on the 1930s the world would have been spared the slaughter of World War Two. We are now facing a decision to do what is easy and cut and run and let the next generation face the potential of millions of deaths or do what is hard and end the threat now before Iran becomes a world malignant cancer.

If we leave Iraq before the area is moderately stable, Iran will come in and fill the power vacuum. A nuclear armed fanatic Iran will then be the dominant Middle East power with visions of a new Persian Empire.

If we listen to the traitors and fools of today in ten years time Iran will be in control of the Middle East and we will wonder what we were thinking. Iran will have trillions of dollars of oil money, nuclear armed intercontinental ballistic missiles, and a rabid mentality where the Theory of Deterrence does not apply.

The net result will be the world cowering to a fanatic Iranian regime or war that will kill millions on both sides. The solution is staying the course now or facing a much worse threat in near future.

It was popular for the French to pull out of Rhineland in 1936 and Neville Chamberlain's appeasement policies. If some gumption was shown on the 1930s the world would have been spared the slaughter of World War Two. We are now facing a decision to do what is easy and cut and run and let the next generation face the potential of millions of deaths or do what is hard and end the threat now before Iran becomes a world malignant cancer.

Always in motion is the future. Strong am I with the Surge. May Surge II be with you.

Also, on the topic of "looking weak". If there was any benefit to the Iraq war, it was that we've sent a message to every world leader that they need to keep extremists and WMDs out of their country...

Well, actually, given that the extremists weren't there till after we arrived and the WMDs weren't there, I'm not sure what message we've sent.

I guess it would be along the lines of, "If you have oil, do whatever the hell you can to stop future terrorist attacks on America." I suppose that's worth a cookie.

Always in motion is the future. May the Surge II be with you.

SGT Smith, G Huckabee, like some others here you haven't come to grips with the sort of problems even defining "victory" or "finishing the job" in Iraq. Tell me, should we support Shias or Sunnis, and what kind of sense does it even make to mediate a civil war between sects of a religion few of us even believe or understand?

Tim B and W L Hinds:

You're making the assumption that those opposed to the war are, or were, supporters of the Democratic party. Also, you're making the assumption that those pushing for their representation (they're supposed to represent you EVEN IF you didn't vote for them) ever approved of their support for the Iraq invasion in the first place. "For us or against the Nation, Freedom, etc!" Casting issues in such a partisan, neo-nationalist, and unpatriotic light the reason that the Rethugs lost my (still conservative) vote. I would note, given the Democrat's weak response to their mandate so far, they've lost my vote as well.

The time is ripe for an independent candidate to make their move, in my opinion. Both parties have squandered the trust of the American people by not acting responsibly for the last 8 years. Why do we keep letting them convince us we need them to act as middlemen in the Democratic process?

Okay you have to laugh at how out of touch with the troops some of these posts are. Polls, interviews, and just asking the ones who fly through ATL (hundreds every day) says that they support the president and the War in Iraq. If a coup were to occur , it would be the army replacing Congress, not the president.

But that is not what many in the media, nor the progressives who are "for the troops" would have you believe. Thankfully in the US, the military avoids politics as much as possible. Otherwise the army would likely feel obligated to forcefully correct the "image" that some here like to project on them.

I won't use the tired old "cut and run" phrase here; but I will say that regardless of what it takes - we have no other choice but to finish this. Finishing this may not produce the same ambitious results that we wanted in the beginning, but it will mean that the US DOES WHAT IT SAYS it will do. Every single time.

Quitting now is, in fact, premature, and yes, it would definitely send a message to the Iranian-backed insurgents and the brainwashed Al-Quaeda drone-bots that the US is limp-wristed and wishy-washy, and that we will always give up before the battle is over. That message emboldens any enemy of any country, people.

We're dealing with CULT members, folks. Nothing we say - no amount of lip service or "diplomacy" - will ever stop them from trying to reach their goal of an Islamic Radical-dominated planet. Americans need to be worrying more about their children, and their grandchildren, and their great-grandchildren, instead of only concentrating on a "quick fix" or a fast pullout. Do you really want them to live in a twisted, backwards future of subdued women and violent, brainwashed cult-extremists? Not me.

to Tim B. What has chenged since we sent our troops in? Well just about EVERYTHING, we now know that our information to go in was 'created' by our Top Washington Officials, who then 'outed' a CIA operative. Oh heck, why go on - those who think can see - those who follow blindly will fall. Bring our troops home - they have done their jobs - we respect that and need them 'here'. We do not need this Adminisration who is only holding on til they get those oil contracts signed - their main objective!

to Tim B. What has chenged since we sent our troops in? Well just about EVERYTHING, we now know that our information to go in was 'created' by our Top Washington Officials, who then 'outed' a CIA operative. Oh heck, why go on - those who think can see - those who follow blindly will fall. Bring our troops home - they have done their jobs - we respect that and need them 'here'. We do not need this Adminisration who is only holding on til they get those oil contracts signed - their main objective!

Impeach. Both Bush and Cheney. Now.

There is no way of knowing the age of the respondents to this article, however I will state that I am 57 and experienced another rather unreal part of our history called "Vietnam". Whether it is "1" or 60,000 military deaths it does not matter. We are wrong and those that feel the people wanting to leave Iraq are not patriotic are delerious. If it were not for people like myself that demonstrated to leave Vietnam, we would still be there losing lives. Wake up people. Your commander cares not about you or your children that are dying. Is is not interesting that the Presidents for both Iraq wars and the Vietnam war had no,none,zero,nada male children of an age that qualifys for military service?

Impeach. Now.

As a NCO in Iraq, you all do not realize the complications over here. We are in a war and it doesn't take a week to finish, especially one of this caliber. I have a wife and 2 kids. I miss them a lot, but we are here to do a job, and the job is not done yet. All of my soldiers and most otheres out here agree with me. The ones that want to come home are the ones that whine all the time and play video games and surf the internet while at work. Everyone knew what they were doing when they signed up, and if they didn't then they shouldn't have joined. If we pull out now, the enemy has won. I have seen more things out here than most of you can even understand. I have Iraqi's coming up to me and saying thank you for all that we have done. Sure not everyone agrees with us, but a lot of the people over here do. We are a family over here, and we need to stay focused on the matter at hand instead of bringing the troops home. Yes it would be nice to come home and see my kids grow up, but it is even nicer to realize that my kids will grow up in a free country and thats what many Iraqi's want for there children. Isnt's it funny how once things appear to be not working over here that the Democrats all decided "Hey let's look good to the U.S. people and do something that might make us look good so that we can have a Democratic President in office in 2008." This is war people not a video game. It will take time and you must have faith in your Commander in Chief as we all do.

The President says troop levels are based on what the generals him they need. But the generals are preparing contingencies for Surge II as a "response to a presidential order".

So who determines how many troops are in Iraq? Feels like a dog chasing its own tail.

I was very indecisive as to go into Iraq or not. They never proved to me there were ever any WMB's to be found. But we are there, we have created a mess for that country and we need to clean it up. Our politicians are a disgrace. I for one will not put another incumbent back into office when voting arises. Anyone else has to be better than what we have now. And shame on all you Americans that will not support your boys and girls doing a job they have been sent off to do. You can disagree with the policies that sent them there, but there should be support for those kids from every American breathing freely. I Thank you for your service.

Bill, George W. Bush summons all of his favorite conservative columnists and pundits over to the White House. There they are treated to a President who is flat out at odds with what his own staff of advisors had been telling them for days on end--that the President was going to soften his rhetoric on the Iraq war and begin a process of methodical disengagement. What they came away with--a sort of mass talking points directive to all of them--was a new Rove-inspired PR strategy designed to rebuild support for Bush's original Iraq policy. In fact, Surge II may indeed be a part of this strategy.

For the first time in my life I actually believe it might be the best thing for this country if the military leaders did stage a coup and remove this mental defective from the White House. Note, that no sooner had this silly, little conclave of Bush sycophants in the opinion media concluded that two of their more prominent members--David Brooks and Bill Kristol--had movoed in toothsweet fashion to begin burnishing Bush's tarnished reputation.

A word for these two: Did you ever for one minute stop to think of how absolutely in the tank for this wretched, incompetent, megalomaniacal poultroon you would appear to be after such a shameless, despicable shredding of your own journalistic integrity. If I were Jim Lehrer, I would no longer be putting out the welcome mat for David Brooks.

Hello W L Hinds and Tim B (and I should be able to politely address other commenters), but what is the definition of victory when the Sunni and Shia (do you even know what they are?) are fighting each other in a civil war, and some in the Iraqi government are fighting us too? Did you know, Iraqi police fired on US troops trying to remove members of Shiite death squads that infiltrated the police? If we train and arm "the Iraqi forces", that means Shiites who will kill Sunnis in general, not just particular insurgents. It would be like arming police in Northern Ireland to kill Catholics. What then does "finishing the job" mean? The job the troops were sent in to do was overthrow Saddam, which they did. Then Iraqis started to fight each other. Who can be identified as the "enemy" to surrender? (Insurgents don't surrender anyway, they aren't part of a government than can sign treaties. They have to be suppressed over long term by political means, by withdrawing their support and bringing order, which requires a unified nation that supports all its ethnic and religious groups. BTW conservatives, Christians are now prosecuted by the religious parties, where before they at least were tolerated. Saddam's Deputy Prime Minister Tariq Aziz was a Christian; never could that happen today.)

The Shiites tend to align with Iran, supposedly such a big enemy. What good is their ascendancy in Iraq for us? Vague and sloppy ruminations about terrorism in general don't justify the current debacle. Something has to change.

Fewer targets to shoot at might mean fewer kills.

I'm constantly amazed. The Americans who speak up, do so only to try to belittle and knock the other side down. This story and the two responses that immediately follow it are perfect examples. Neither person (W L Hinds and Tim B) recognized the pain inflicted on our troops by 15 month rotations with under 12 month respites, along with the fact, as I've read recently, that they stay out for a full day of being on alert or under attack and then get 4-6 hours rest before starting again.
To pass these sorts of stories off under the heading of no war "is pretty," is to ignore the human cost of this conflict.
Tim B made a good point; we sent our troops there to do a job, what has changed? That's the problem. The American public (and apparently some of the troops) aren't sure what the reason for going was or is, and what has changed is that the Iraqi government has not done anything to prepare for American departure.
Now there is talk of Surge II? Our troops have been badly abused in and by this war. The time for name-calling (peacenik, cut-and-runner, etc.) is long past. It is time for patriotic Americans to stand up and say, enough is enough. Iraq is a mess. We made the mess, but it is beyond our capability to fix it militarily. Our troops should come home and recieve the kind of heros' welcome they deserve, while we continue to economically support Iraq while it figures out what kind of country IT WANTS to become.

W L Hinds: "they'd rather listen to a few peacenics and protestors rather than show a little patriotism"

This attitude could be excused a few years ago, but what kind of hole must you live in to be this badly misinformed? This isn't 1968 anymore chief. We want the troops home because we *do* support them. In filibustering the Webb amendment last week the GOP proudly demonstrated that their loyalty to the president trumps their loyalty to the troops. Faced with this kind of leadership, it is imperative that we remove the troops from a no-win situation and stop allowing them to be used as pawns.

The Other Tim B

No, we do not need a bigger Army. We need less military adventurism and, more than that, more statesmanship from our Senators. We only got into this war because partisan Democrat Senators thought it a clever ploy to let Bush have his war clearing the way for Democrats to campaign on domestic issues. They could not be bothered to examine the case for war critically. They failed their duty to the Republic. Many of them continue to do so now and will vote for a bigger Army as a way of obscuring their irresponsibility.