M, I will read that link for sure, but I don't doubt it for a second. All of these stories coming in quick succession casting Iran as the cause of every problem in the middle east is exactly what they said about Saddam. I find it hard to believe that anyone with even a shred of brains or dignity can't see through these ridiculous allegations. AND I DON'T WANT TO HEAR ANOTHER WORD ABOUT THE USS COLE, THE COLE WAS AT DOCK, NOT MOVING AS PART OF A BATTLE GROUP, AND THE DUBBED IN COMMENT OF "YOU WILL BLOW UP IN A FEW MINUTES" IS WAY TO CONVENIENT FOR BUSH TO BE SOME HECKLER, THIS WHOLE PHILLIPINO MONKEY THING IS ANOTHER FAKE STORY, IT FITS INTO THE WHOLE PATTERN OF DECEIT THESE PEOPLE ARE ENGAGED IN. I have to laugh when Americans talk about how Islamic schools and media are brainwashing Muslims to hate Americans. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Most people in other countries dismiss everything their state sponsored media says as biased, but in America the propaganda is even more effective because we supposedly have a "free" and "liberal" media. In actuality, how hard is it to plant stories on a couple of newswires and Doctor some audio?

Not to mention the ridiculous news conference the Bushies had in Baghdad back in February to prove that Iran was arming the Iraqi insurgency. First off, no US government official anywhere in the country or in Iraq would give their identity and the media would not be allowed in unless they swore to secrecy. After that, they showed a few weapons and photos of weapons, but the mortars that they showed had dates written in English, using a Christian calendar. Funny, that the Islamic Republic would use a calendaring system that has no meaning anywhere in the middle east. Also the weapons where 81mm and the Iranian military uses 82mm. The one and only news conference that they showed the actual weapons from this epidemic, not a single US government official even a desk clerk would attach their name to it. ALL THE MEDIA DID WAS JUST REPEAT THE LIE AND RAN WITH THE STORY, THIS IS WHAT I MEAN WHEN I MAKE COMPARISONS TO GOEBBELS AND NAZIS, JUST LIKE GERMAN NEWSREELS WHO CLAIMED POLAND ATTACKED GERMANY.

Farzad,

Commander Jeff Huber, U.S. Navy (Retired) was operations officer of a naval air wing and an aircraft carrier, and he commanded an E-2C Hawkeye aircraft squadron.
Check out his article: http://www.campaigniran.org/casmii/index.php?q=node/3762

I hope you still remember Jessica Lynch story!

The Australian quotes an unnamed "Pentagon official" as saying that "It is the most serious provocation of this sort that we've seen yet." The paper recounts the claim of a "Pentagon spokesman" that the Iranian boats were operating at "distances and speeds that showed reckless and dangerous intent - reckless, dangerous and potentially hostile intent". The Australian identified the spokesman as one Bryan Whitman, but it didn't mention what Bryan Whitman does in the Pentagon or how he came to be a spokesman for it.

It happens that one Bryan Whitman is the deputy assistant secretary of Defense for Public Affairs, which makes him part of the Office of Strategic Influence (AKA Ministry of Truth) apparatus that Donald Rumsfeld established to support his wars through misinformation, disinformation, and psychological operations. One of Whitman's most notable contributions to the cause was his attempted whitewashing of the Pentagon's Jessica Lynch hoax.

M great post, this whole debate changes once people realize that straits of Hormuz are not territorial waters, but under international law that they belong to Iran and Oman, because the straits are so narrow. HMM, I wonder why most of the mainstream media "free press" (chuckle) ignores this story and this angle?

Frank kudos to you for actually looking up the information people provide and keeping an open mind. I am sure you don't agree with me on much, but so far at least that is the read I am getting from you.

PS there is no philipino monkey on that tape, the only monkey on that tape is the Crawford Monkey working through one of his minions trying to do a phoney cab driver accent. Funny, that this phillipino monkey, heckler individual would make a comment that is so strategically convenient to Bush's message in the gulf.

Great post, M, this whole debate changes is you realize that the straits of Hormuz are so narrow that they really aren't international waters but Iran and Oman's territory. HMM WONDER WHY OUR "FREE" (CHUCKLE) MEDIA DOESN'T REPORT ANY OF THIS?

AND FRANK KUDOS FOR KEEPING AN OPEN MIND AND ACTUALLY LOOKING AT THE INFO SOMEONE HAS TAKEN THE TIME TO PROVIDE YOU.

Iran's protests:

irna.com/en/news/view/menu-234/0701205213121450.htm
state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2001/6927.htm
washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/07/AR2005110701450.html
jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1196847282808&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iran/2007/iran-070609-irna01.htm

Take a closer look at the second one from State Department.

It doesn't let me post.. so I removed some parts of URL to see if it works now.

Frank,
I didn't mean you haven't answered, I was waiting for an answer from plainfacto.

Meanwhile:

In Tehran on Monday, the news agency FARS, which is close to the Revolutionary Guards, wrote in an analysis that the accusations were baseless and aimed at depicting Iran as a threat ahead of Mr. Bush's trip to the region.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/08/washington/08military.html?em&ex=1199854800&en=d31f1e2de162e4e5&ei=5087%0A

Other than, Iran's response to US complaint has been silence...

M writes:

-- ... Iran has filed thousands of complaints against US in UN ...--

Did another google search. All I could find was a story from 2006 regarding the Iranian central bank filing a complaint against the US treasury with the IMF.

Couldn't find anything about Iran filing a complaint with the US about UNCLOS violations.

Perhaps you could provide those links as well. Thanks.

M writes:

-- has already answered to US complaint through Swiss embassy, by calling it baseless and having no merits --

I did a google search. Couldn't find anything relating to Iran's response. Can you provide me a link, please? Thanks

M writes:

-- Are you convinced that 1) Bush is wrong, 2) Bush is stupid 3) You are wrong? --

I think if you review some of my comments below, you'll find that I have gone on the record here as being critical of the US government's formal policy of "regime change" with regards to Iran. And that I agree with Arkin in his last three blogs that Bush should tone down the rhetoric.

M writes:

-- Thanks for writing something cause all I could hear after my previous question, was crickets. --

I'm sorry if you directed a question to me earlier and I missed it. Perhaps you can tell me the time of that specific post and I'll respond.

If girlfriend analogy wasn't good enough.. President Bush didn't reply to Ahmadinejad's letter. Are you convinced that 1) Bush is wrong, 2) Bush is stupid 3) You are wrong?

Frank,
Thanks for writing something cause all I could hear after my previous question, was crickets.
To answer your point, Iran has already answered to US complaint through Swiss embassy, by calling it baseless and having no merits (maybe because they know those UNCLOS laws, while US doesn't, hence complaining over something with no [firm] legal standing).

Now, whether Iran would take issue to an international forum, of course she wouldn't. Iran has filed thousands of complaints against US in UN and haven't gained anything, why'd she now, in a tense moment like this when US is only looking for an excuse and Iran trying to calm tensions?

So, contrary to your point, silence is not always because:
1) I'm wrong or 2) I'm stupid or 3) I'm wrong.

Piece of advice: next time your girlfriend starts a fight, don't say anything for 30 minutes first.

M writes:

-- This technically warrants a legal backlash in the form of the Iranians temporary suspending the US warships' right of passage. Again, the US could be technically prosecuted by Iran in international forums for conducting questionable activities while in Iranian territorial waters. --

Interesting Law of the Sea argument. I'm not a lawyer, nor do I have all the facts, so won't venture an opinion as to its merits.

Rather than rush to judgement, I'll wait to see how Iran response to the 'demarche sent through Switzerland late last week.

It'll be interesting to see if the Iranians are as astute as you and respond to the 'demarche as you suggest. Of course, if they don't, we can probably assume that (1) the Iranians realize your argument isn't supported by the facts of the case, (2) the Iranian lawyers aren't as astute on UNCLOS provisions as you, or (3) your analysis is faulty.

Plainfacto, here's my question, which I humbly need your advice on:
How US has a big interest in democracy while it's biggest ally in Persian Gulf region is Saudi Arabia. Please explain in a logical way, then move to UAE, Bahrain, Kuwait, Egypt and explain it about them too.

Don't tell me that I just have to accept. Don't tell me not to ask for reasons or proofs.
Just for once, answer a question, instead of changing subject or asking another question.

I can even help you in answering: prove that alliance with "all" those countries is bigger and more important than promoting democracy there, and then you'll be done. Q.E.D.

Ask -ask or tell -tell; do it already.
Knock yourself out...What did you want to say?

>> The conversation is open to you if Dimitry doesn't want to answer. What did you have in mind?

Plainfacto, I'm not here to play games or waste time. If you have anything to say or ask(that makes sense), feel free.
I also don't like to jump from one subject to another. Lets finish one first and then open a new front.

//Imagine if 3 massive Iranian warships cruised around menacingly right off the coast of the US and inside our territorial waters, while their leaders threatened us//

Another alternate reality show.
If my grandma had balls - Farzad - she would be my grandpa...

//You can stop calling people names (or titles) and coming up with answers... and I said anything.. any answer, as long as it is logical.

So, after missile man, it's time for Pseudo Liberal?//

The 'missile man' was me conversing with 'Dimitry'.

The 'pseudo-liberal' was for anyone that fit the description. Did you feel a finger pointing at you?

//Do you get paid for coming up with all these irrelevant subjects, rather than answering simple questions?//

The conversation is open to you if Dimitry doesn't want to answer. What did you have in mind?

Great post M, the picture changes kind a bit when you realize that the US war ships in the straight of Hormus are literally with in eyesight of the Iranian coastline and are actually traveling in the territorial waters of Iran. Therefore, what right does Bush have of entering their territorial waters with the intent to intimidate them with our Navy, and then complaining about being harrassed. I know Iran is threatening a US destroyer, frigate, and cruiser with 5 speed boats inside Iran's territorial waters. Here is another purposeful ommission by our war and Israel loving media.

The straight of Hormuz is not international waters, it belongs to Oman and Iran, every country is allowed to claim 12 miles of ocean out from their shore. The US boats where inside that internationally recognized territorial water distinction. Imagine if 3 massive Iranian warships cruised around menacingly right off the coast of the US and inside our territorial waters, while their leaders threatened us. I know we would just sit by idly, yeah right. If anyone is showing restraint it is not George Bush, thank god for the calm nerves and steady leadership of the our naval leaders in the water that day. If a neocon crazy was commanding those vessels Bush would have the Gulf of Tonkin he is looking for.

I don't speak Farsi; try Russian...

You can stop calling people names (or titles) and coming up with answers... and I said anything.. any answer, as long as it is logical.

So, after missile man, it's time for Pseudo Liberal?

Do you get paid for coming up with all these irrelevant subjects, rather than answering simple questions?

Like I said - I had not problem understanding what that guy had to say - or how he said it. It wasn't a Nazi manifesto; it was a valid perspective. Oh, wait a minute - my mistake. Pseudo-liberals don't have that concept installed...

gooz be shaghighe che rabti dare?

Liberals are not liberals at all. They are pseudo-liberals. If the liberals out there would listen closely, off in the distance they can hear Thomas Jefferson spinning in his grave like a dynamo. Yea - that bad.

Pseudo-liberals ar far more closed minded than your friendly neighborhood communist - and they are pretty hard to find thes days. Or maybe you visit Cuba and N Korea on a regular basis? I suppose you believe in UFO's - too? Doesn't surprise me - either...

>> If you cannot consider these thought for a moment without resistance - then, forget I said anything at all. Let me know when your curiosity cannot stand your own self-imposed limits...

I have already forgotten everything you said, cause if it can't be backed by proof, it's worthless.
The only self-imposed limit should be the limits of logics, and curiosity doesn't necessarily stand in the way of logic.

You have a brain to think. Instead of just following the crowd, stop for a second and think. Just think for a second where you are going to.

Or is it too much, asking people to think?

Always with resistance to anybody but yourself; do you think it is just too condescending to ask? It is a common feature of human nature to not tread on the untrodden path; just follow the crowd. If you cannot consider these thought for a moment without resistance - then, forget I said anything at all. Let me know when your curiosity cannot stand your own self-imposed limits...

>> Just accept what he said

I wonder why this sounds so familiar... did I hear last in Nazi movie...

I can think for myself, and I accept anything that sounds logical, i.e. 2+2=4.

You're free to think and decide and accept to deny, or.... "just accept what he said", although I have a serious problem with people who do the latter, and I can't hide it.

What you are attempting to do, is to get me on a discourse of the events and then attempt to strain gnat poop out of pepper. Just accept what he said as the implied intentions of the US and hows/whys in dealing with its foreign policy. If you can use this as a primer to untangle events that have already passed, I think you will be able to interpret the US position with greater ease. It makes it easier to separate the BS from the US, if you use that concept...

I'm very much willing to understand how US has a big interest in democracy while it's biggest ally in Persian Gulf region is Saudi Arabia. Please explain in a logical way, then move to UAE, Bahrain, Kuwait, Egypt and explain it about them too.

Say something... anything... that sounds logical.

Why don't you try to understand, rather than attempting to dictate? I think he gave a truly excellent view. Funny; I didn't have the slightest difficulty with any of it...

>> It is both disingenuous and foolhardy to advocate that the U.S. simply stand aside and never try to influence the direction of events in foreign lands.
>> Yes, we have a strong interest in the promotion of democracy.

What you fail to mention (or understand?) is that US big allies in Persian Gulf are some of the last dictatorial regimes on earth. If you do some research about Iran's political system, and, say, UAE, [hopefully] you'll notice.
I don't believe any body says US should stand aside. with great power, comes great responsibility. If all those Arab countries were more democratic, life would've been different for many of us.
To mention that US has a strong interest in promotion of democracy is naive, if not wrong altogether.
Maybe you meant "US has a strong interest in the promotion of democracy as long as it doesn't conflict with its thirst for other people's money, blood, oil, etc, etc"?

Conspiracy theorists love to have their say... Regardless, we have to deal with the situation on the ground as it exists.
It is both disingenuous and foolhardy to advocate that the U.S. simply stand aside and never try to influence the direction of events in foreign lands. Every nation does this to the greatest extent of its ability. I defy any of those decrying U.S. efforts to stablize a nuclear-armed Pakistan to say with a straight face that Russia, China, and other nations don't do everything they can to tilt events their way.
Yes, we have a strong interest in the promotion of democracy. It is a trusim that "liberal democracies don't wage war on other liberal democracies." On the other hand, the realists know that democracy doesn't just spring up from the ground. Every nation must find its own path to democracy, and often that requires the guidance and yes, intervention, of other states during the maturation process.
This is not condescending. Remember that the Nazis were initially democratically elected. So was Hamas. Those who advocate a "just stand aside" policy are impossibly naive. We have a right and a duty to be engaged where our national interests are at stake.
For what it is worth, I will take our record on human rights and the promotion of democracy over that of our global competitors any day. Anyone who feels differently might want to stop and take a sober reassessment of the record of our current competitors. Guantanamo is a paradise compared to the Russian gulags or the Chinese "re-education" camps. And all you had to do to get a one-way ticket under those regimes was to dare to think differently - not be captured in an active war zone, waging or supporting war.
No question the current Administration has made far more mistakes than are justified; I am gravely disappointed in them. But those mistakes are not justification for an isolationist and paralyzed foreign policy that cedes all initiative to those who have our destruction as their first priority.

First, let's understand something about Mossadeq. The CIA plan in place was on of political maneuvering and slight-of-hand; they didn't go in with guns a-blazin'. It was too delicate of a situation for that.

That is why I posed the Ruskies into this scenario; they were bent to deliver a 'turd in the punchbowl' and ruin our influences that would have brought about the needed changes without somebody having to die.

Contrary to popular belief, it is a popular and useful misconception to think this way; killing someone for whatever reason is not the preferred method of the CIA to get the job done. Influence is far more useful than a dead body; you'll figure it out.

I still think the Russians screwed it up for us and the Brits. You have been reading/watching far too much 'James Bond' into this scenario to your own liking. Most people do. Like I said, have another cup of coffee...

Lets try reasoning again:

Tension spiked markedly last week when Iranian Revolutionary Guards Corps (IRGC) speedboats were involved in an "incident" with three US Navy vessels, which claimed they were international waters.

Yet there is no "international water" in the Strait of Hormuz, straddled between the territorial waters of Iran and Oman. The US government claimed, through a Pentagon spokesperson, Bryan Whitman, that the three US ships "transiting through the Strait of Hormuz" were provocatively harassed by the speedboats. This was followed by the Pentagon's release of a videotape of the encounter, where in response to Iran's request for ship identification, we hear a dispatch from one of the US ships stating the ship's number and adding that "we are in international waters and we intend no harm".

Thus there is the issue of the exact whereabouts of the US ships at the time of the standoff with the Iranian boats manned by the IRGC patrolling the area. According to Vice Admiral Kevin Cosgiff, the US ships were "five kilometers outside Iranian territorial waters". Yet, this is disputed by another dispatch from the US ships that states, "I am engaged in transit passage in accordance with international law."

Given that the approximately three-kilometer-wide inbound traffic lane in the Strait of Hormuz is within Iran's territorial water, the US Navy's invocation of "transit passage" harking back to the 1982 UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, (UNCLOS) is hardly surprising. [1]

Although the US has yet to ratify the UNCLOS, it has been a strong advocate of its provisions regarding navigational rights, thus explaining the US officers' availing themselves of "international law". [2]

It is noteworthy that in May 2006, Bush urged the US Congress to "act favorably on US accession to the convention". But, in light of the legal ramifications of the US-Iran standoff in the Persian Gulf, discussed below, opponents of the UNCLOS may have become emboldened. According to them, the convention "prohibits two functions vital to American security: collecting intelligence and submerged transit of territorial waters".

However, irrespective of how Congress acts on the pending legislation on UNCLOS, the fact is that the US cannot have its cake and eat it. That is, rely on it to defend its navigational rights in the Strait of Hormuz and, simultaneously, disregard the various limitations on those rights imposed by the UNCLOS - and favoring Iran. These include the following:

# Per Article 39 of the UNCLOS, pertaining to "duties of ships during transit passage" US ships passaging through the Strait of Hormuz must "proceed without delay" and "refrain from any threat or use of force against the sovereignty, territorial integrity or political independence of states bordering the strait".
# Per Article 40, "During transit passage, foreign ships may not carry out any research or survey activity without the prior authorization of the states bordering the straits." And yet, by the US Navy's own admission, it has been conducting sonar activities in the area, to detect submerged vessels. This, in turn, has harmed the Persian Gulf's aquatic mammals. In light of a recent US court ruling limiting the US Navy's sonar activities off the California coast, Iran now has greater political leverage to seek information regarding the activities of US warships transiting through its territorial waters.
# Given the US's verbal acrobatics, of trying to depict as "international waters" what is essentially Iran's territorial water in the inbound traffic channel of the Strait of Hormuz, it collides with Article 34 of UNCLOS. This regards the "legal status of waters forming the straits used for international navigation", that strictly stipulates that the regime of passage "shall not affect the legal status of the waters forming such straits". Following the UNCLOS, Iran's territorial water extends 12 nautical miles at the Strait of Hormuz.
# The Pentagon videotape of the incident shows a US helicopter hovering above the US ships, which is in clear contradiction of Article 19 of the UNCLOS, which expressly forbids "the launching, landing or taking on board of any aircraft" during transit passage.
# Article 19, elaborating on the meaning of "innocent passage", states that "passage is innocent so long as it is not prejudicial to the peace, good order or security of the coastal state". And that means a prohibition on "any exercise or practice with weapons of any kind" and or "any act of harmful and serious pollution".

In other words, US warships transiting through Hormuz must, in effect, act as non-war ships, "temporarily depriving themselves of their armed might". And any "warning shots" fired by US ships at Iranian boats, inspecting the US ships under customary international laws, must be considered an infringement on Iran's rights. This technically warrants a legal backlash in the form of the Iranians temporary suspending the US warships' right of passage. Again, the US could be technically prosecuted by Iran in international forums for conducting questionable activities while in Iranian territorial waters.
# Under Article 25 of the UNCLOS, a "coastal state may take the necessary steps in its territorial sea to prevent passage which is not innocent ... the coastal state may suspend temporarily in specified areas of its territorial sea the innocent passage of foreign ships if such suspension is essential for the protection of its of security, including weapons exercise."
# Per Article 30, "If any warship does not comply with the laws and regulations of the coastal state concerning passage through the territorial sea and disregards any request for compliance therewith which is made to it, the coastal state may require it to leave the territorial sea immediately."
# Pursuant to Article 42 of the UNCLOS, "states bordering straits may adopt laws and regulations relating to transit passage" and "foreign ships exercising the right of transit passage shall comply with such laws and regulations." In this connection, Iran's 1993 maritime law echoes Article 20 of the UNCLOS: "In the territorial sea, submarines and other underwater vehicles are required to navigate on surface and to show their flag." Yet, disregarding both international law and Iran's laws, the US Navy until now has refused to comply with the requirement of surface passage of its submarines through the Strait of Hormuz.

In light of the above, the Strait of Hormuz has now turned into a most fertile source of tension and conflict between Iran and the United States, touching on the larger issue of international law of the sea and the navigational regime through the strait(s).

Iran could conceivably use its privileged geographical position to tap into the complex set of rules pertaining to the navigational regime, as a form of (geo) political leverage to wring concessions from the US Navy, and its regional allies, with respect to security and maritime affairs of the Persian Gulf.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/JA15Ak02.html

//Often accused, never convicted, eh?

Read the CIA's own published documents, which you never did, alas. And I hoped that you actually wanted to know...

Why do I have hopes that conscience will win over self-serving banality?//

Those CIA documents and three dollars will buy you a cup of coffee - maybe. If they were worth the paper they were printed on, a 'Mr. Smith goes to Washington' Senator would have grabbed them up and done something about it. There are covers, and then again, there are covers.

"Who killed Kennedy? Even the shooters don't know - don't you get it?" -David Ferry; movie: 'JFK'

Like I said, an illusion created by the Illusionist is done while you are led to watch one hand while the other hand gets away with the trick.

//When all else fails, there are always the Russians to blame to explain why YOU had to kill a whole bunch of bystanders. The Russians made me do it!

I would say "you should be ashamed of yourself", but that would mean nothing to you.//

Hey missile man, why dont you print excerps of your best 'CIA' evidence, so I can see what endears you to your argument - OK? Be to the point; please...

//I just want to clear something up here. "Truth" as defined in this statement is relative to 'politcal truth' - not to be confused with God's truth, I was speaking specifically about the 'arguable' truth of this situation. OK?==

Entirely NOT OK, Mr. Komissar.//

I guess you failed to understand my point and wanted to start another angle of an argument. Have another cup of coffee. I was just saying that 'all men are liars, but only the Lord speaks the truth' - which is a scripture - look it up. This is an insightful truth to see that men lie and God has no purpose in lying. Understand that first - was my point in bringing that up. Yet another angle to distract from the real issue - was that your point?

The Shah had Mossadeq confinrd until his death. And the CIA gets the blame because they are sooo scary and clandestine for being a part of it all. )Plainfacto

ONE PROBLEM THE CIA ADMITS TO OVERTHROWING THE MOSSADEGH GOVERNMENT, THE FIRST DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENT IN THE MIDDLE EAST. WHAT THE US GOVERNMENT DID TO MOSSADEGH AND TO IRANIAN DEMOCRACY IN ITS INFANCY IS ONE OF THE GREATEST CRIMES OF THE 20TH CENTURY. THEY SET UP A CHAIN OF EVENTS BY PUTTING THE INCOMPETENT SHAH BACK IN POWER THAT WOULD RESULT IN THE ISLAMIC REVOLUTION OF 1979. My family and I, as well as millions of Iranians are still trying to recover from the decisions that where made in 1953, and guess what they overthrew Mossadegh so they could buy oil at a cheaper price, so does America care about freedom or does it care about the Middle east's oil?

Iranians are a murderous bunch of lying scum.")Nate Smith

THIS IS WHAT CONSERVATIVES CALL PATRIOTISM VIOLENT RACIAL EPITHETS. THIS IS ALL THEY HAVE TO OFFER, NO INFORMATION, NO FACTS, THEY JUST COME IN AND SPEW HATRED. DON'T CONFUSE THE RIGHTWINGS BLOODLUST FOR PATRIOTISM. They are racist bigots who confuse militarism and aggression for Patiriotism. The truth be told Bush's voluntary war against Iraq has been more damaging to this country than anything Al quaeda has done to us, and only a neoidiot would argue with that. I am not exaggerating when I say that if the rightwing in this country had absolute power like the Nazis had in Germany, they would kill just as many people. The party of Lincoln has turned into the party of kill muslims and ask questions later. If America elects one of the sociopaths on the republicans side or stays in Iraq till 2013 like Hillary wants, I can guarantee you that we will quickly lose our preeminent standing in the world. Ask yourself is this country better off than it was 8 years ago? What has Bush's war in Iraq gotten any of you, or any of the American people?

BUT I KNOW THE REAL DANGER IS SECULAR, LEFTWING, IRANIAN-AMERICANS TELLING YOU THE TRUTH ON THE INTERNET; NOT PEOPLE WHO THINK WAR IS THE FIRST OPTION AND DIPLOMACY UNMANLY. AND IF YOU BELIEVE THAT I GOT A BRIDGE I'D LIKE YOU TO BUY.

Right now with Bush's violent rhetoric and constantly doing whatever he can to antagonize Iran, it is clear who the warmongers are, and unfortunately they reside at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. I know, people like me who want peace and non-violence hate America. But George Bush who has killed or crippled nearly 15,000 Americans on a war based in lies, and who has bankrupted our treasury and turned the dollar into the Peso north he is a great Patriot. And he did it all for oil money and power, I am sure it is a coincidence that since Bush invaded Iraq that the price of Oil has tripled and that American oil companies have recorded the biggest profits lines in the history of global business.

AFTER WITNESSING THE RACIST COMMENTARY AND VILE BLOOD LUST OF MANY OF YOU ON THIS SITE YOU HAVE CHANGED MY MIND. I THINK IRAN SHOULD GO FOR NUKES, AND I HOPE THEY ARE, BECAUSE THAT IS THE ONLY WAY THEY CAN PROTECT THEMSELVES FROM BEING PILLAGED BY THE RIGHTWING WARMONGERS WHO HAVE PRIMACY IN OUR POLITICAL SYSTEM. AND THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA IS AGAIN ACTING AS JOSEPH GOEBBELS TO GEORGE BUSH'S HITLER IMPERSONATION BLANKLY DISSEMINATING HIS LIES. Keep telling us you propagandists how Iran a country who hasn't invaded anyone in 150 years is the greatest threat to the world since HIV, Smallpox, and the black death combined.

You are right Plainfacto, I don't care about Israel, I have never pretended to, I think it is an awful country that probably should never have been carved out of other people's land. But, it is inarguable fact that Jimmy Carter helped Israel a great deal, he increased aid to Israel by megabillions and he had the largest Arab country in the world make peace with Israel. In 1974 Israel fought one of its bloodiest wars with Egypt and initially Egypt had a great deal of success recapturing half of the Sinai. Since Jimmy Carter twisted Israel's arm into making peace with Egypt not a single shot in anger has been fired between the two states that fought a bitter war. ONLY A NECON RIGHT-WING LIAR COULD CLAIM THAT JIMMY CARTER IS ANTI-ISRAEL OR ANTI-SEMITIC, I KNOW HAVING CREATED A PEACE AND RECOGNITION FOR ISRAEL WITH THE LARGEST ARAB COUNTRY IS OF NO VALUE RIGHT? What next are you going to tell me that two plus two is nine.

Definitely down with Caveman I's cause. Thanks to M for putting it simply enough that even an American might understand. Can't wait til plainfacto gets drafted at age 49 to fight against eastasia. Plainfacto, did you know that your country has always been at war with eastasia? It's true -- look it up.

==Prove me wrong; I know you can't. Please try - though. I need to entertain myself somehow.==

Often accused, never convicted, eh?

Read the CIA's own published documents, which you never did, alas. And I hoped that you actually wanted to know...

Why do I have hopes that conscience will win over self-serving banality?

==You know Dimitry, that even the Russians/USSR could have very well played into this scenario.==

When all else fails, there are always the Russians to blame to explain why YOU had to kill a whole bunch of bystanders. The Russians made me do it!

I would say "you should be ashamed of yourself", but that would mean nothing to you.

==//The truth is often quite contrary to the perception.//

I just want to clear something up here. "Truth" as defined in this statement is relative to 'politcal truth' - not to be confused with God's truth, I was speaking specifically about the 'arguable' truth of this situation. OK?==

Entirely NOT OK, Mr. Komissar.

>> Yea, the guys in the boats were Persian and the direction they came from was Iran.

And that comes from... the ethnicity-o-meter installed on USS Hopper?

>> Plainfacto says: when the Iranians themselves don't really know but highly suspect

Who exactly appointed you as the speaker for Iranians? You obviously are not one either.

Correction: you are wrong. Iranian's know who did it.
You can try to convince them they're wrong, but Iranians believe they know who did it.

Nobody who hasn't been frightened by the steady multiyear drumbeat out of Washington about Iran as world-killer seems to have taken seriously the voice on the US Navy videotape as being the voice of an Iranian naval officer. It sounded exactly like a young male American prankster, adopting a Hollywood menace voice. A Halloween voice.

It seems that even the Navy now admits the lack of authenticity.

Under these circumstances, all the global strategic and historical chatter in this conversation seems a major irrelevance. The issue at hand ain't what Jimmy Carter or anybody else did a year or 20 years ago, it's the US government extracting the suggestion that some Iranian speedboats intended to harm much larger US vessels seemingly traveling in convoy, and was prepared to share that suggestion with the world.

Nobody seems to have pondered this: why would Iran, a nation effectively helpless against any US air or major naval attack -- and knowing that -- do anything to invite such attack? Nobody seems interested in answering that question.

The other big question of the moment is of course whether the US has any interest in creating a situation in which it would be able to claim a need to defend itself against even an imaginary foreign attack.

The only official answer to this is the often repeated Bush & Rice mantra: all options are on the table.

And let's recall the imaginary ability of Iraq to attack America five years ago. Former secretary of state Coilin Powell now regards that claim as the greatest embarrassment of his life. How many lives, American and other, is an obvious videotape voice prank worth?

Yea, the guys in the boats were Persian and the direction they came from was Iran. Not to mention, this wasn't the first time this has happened - either.

How do you know that the speed boats were Iranian? Did they have any markings.

I thought that it was an assumption that they were Iranian. Has this been verified by evidence? Can somebody clarify this for me?

//The truth is often quite contrary to the perception.//

I just want to clear something up here. "Truth" as defined in this statement is relative to 'politcal truth' - not to be confused with God's truth, I was speaking specifically about the 'arguable' truth of this situation. OK?

You know Dimitry, that even the Russians/USSR could have very well played into this scenario. They knew if they could get between the US/Brits and the gov't of Iran by sprinkling a bit of dung into our plans - all they had to do was shoot who the Brits wanted out of power, just make us look like the bad guys. It wouldn't have been the first time - either.

There was a 'cold war' that was quite hot at the time. We did a lot of things to the USSR, and they did likewise. IF they really wanted to screw it up for us with Iran - while in 'their neck of the woods' - they had every motive to lay the blame at our feet and make it stick. It would have been too easy for them to do - really no problem. Prove me wrong; I know you can't. Please try - though. I need to entertain myself somehow.

You see, that once someone says 'the CIA did it' -anything after that comes under the heading of 'conspiracy theorist'. There was evidence of Iranians that may have been responsible for Razmarra. The Shah had Mossadeq confinrd until his death. And the CIA gets the blame because they are sooo scary and clandestine for being a part of it all. What do you think you will prove? That you can tell what really happened - when the Iranians themselves don't really know but highly suspect?

I'm glad we're not talking about Holocaust and it's just a simple coup (!), or it'd have really hurt feelings of many people, talking about illusions and perceptions and never knowing what really happened...
How ironic that coup is actually more recent than Holocaust...

==I can't tell if you are being optimistic or pessimistic. Either way, it is a cynical response - par for the course. What about the Brits? Don't you think they had anything to do with it at all; or are you just ready to write off the US once again as usual?==

You know, it is OK to take some time to think. It is better to give a thoughtful answer tomorrow than a flippant one right away.

The British today will do what we do. Wouldn't hurt their historical guilt one bit.

The truth is often quite contrary to the perception. Once the official story takes hold; the rest becomes a legend and is the object of a parlor game. You and I will never know what really happened. Especially if all of the parties involved are dead - which they are. You aren't about to make it better or change a thing. Assigning blame at this point is like playing 'Clue'. Yea - whodunnit? It was Col. Mustard in the parlor with the candlestick holder.
Good Luck!

Its funny - you know? The second someone uses the acronym 'CIA' - and all of a sudden - everybody is suddenly a spy and knows what they are talking about - even though they really know very little. It would be funny if it wasn't tragic. Illusions are created by the illusionist to make everybody watch one hand - while the other is doing the trick. Does that help at all?

//It is a stain on national honor. It should be removed with an acknowledgement and an apology. That action alone would revamp US/Iranian relations overnight. Alas, false pride and evil hopes will prevent this from happening this time.

Someday...//

I can't tell if you are being optimistic or pessimistic. Either way, it is a cynical response - par for the course. What about the Brits? Don't you think they had anything to do with it at all; or are you just ready to write off the US once again as usual?

Some kids in the school just "plain" refuse to learn.
I'm sure there's a system... even for them. I yet have to find it.

I'm partial to Coltrane myself.

I'm actually more of a blues guy -though.
Johnson, Howlin Wolf, Albert King, and so on. Big fan of Clapton, too.

I used to play blues in a band, It was a lot of fun and learning...

==I know enough about Mossadeq, but that is classified info; I'd have to kill you after I told you.

That's funny!

Posted by: Plainfacto | January 13, 2008 10:37 PM ==

==Hey missile man, are you out there for a debate or what?

Posted by: Plainfacto | January 13, 2008 11:37 PM ==

I was listening to Hiromi Uehara. She is the best thing that is happening to Jazz today.

Well, at least you learned something in that hour.

There is no debate on something like this. I don't debate people who want to debate this. They become examples out of Martin Buber's "Good and Evil."

It is a stain on national honor. It should be removed with an acknowledgement and an apology. That action alone would revamp US/Iranian relations overnight. Alas, false pride and evil hopes will prevent this from happening this time.

Someday...

//Is my analogy simple enough? Any problems with it//

Yet another reality show!
The hits just keep on a'comin...

Plainfacto et al,
I'm trying to make it very simple for you to understand.
I did some teaching at some point and I liked it.
Read very carefully and be attentive.

Caveman A lives in Cave A, he's very strong and has a security system for his cave.
Caveman I lives 10 mountains away, he's tiny and short, and knows if there's food shortage, caveman A will kill him in no time.
Caveman I spends some of his time making knives out of stones every day. He also dreams of having Brinks security system.
Caveman A, being the way he is, believes if Caveman I becomes strong enough, he will come over some night to kill him. Caveman A believes Caveman I will kill him because he doesnt like his democracy and freedom.
Caveman A eliminates Caveman I when it's the easiest.

If I'm the God, I'll help Caveman I.
What about y'all?

Is my analogy simple enough? Any problems with it?

//If a Martian reads this thread, she'd definitely conclude that pro bush administration people on this thread have a tendency to jump on another subject when they're given a logical and reasonable response.//

Here's what we need, another alternate reality show...

//Dimitry is right Carter helped Israel more than anyone knows.//

What do you care about Israel Farzad? Phoney is - as phoney does...

//Seriously this is no cliche give peace a chance, Anti-Americanism is on the rise across the globe, and it is time that the peace movement and those of us who care about human-rights send a message to the world that we are not with these people. We are with the people of every race, every nationality, and every creed who reject violence. Sometimes you have to fight a war, but most of the times we send in the military it is not just, it is short-sighted, and we pay a huge price not just in blood and treasure but in moral standing as well.//

OK everybody, you can put your guns and weapons down now. Everything is OK. The Iranians, AlQaida, and the Taliban - and all of their subjuugated organizations have quit, given up, and have stopped all of their terrorist activities. Because Farzad says so.

OK - Good deal Farzad - what did you give in trade? What did you say? You got Hamas to stop aggrevating the Israelis, and the Iranians are going to put all of their terrorism bankroll into drilling and refining their own oil? And you even go UBL to shave off his beard?

What did we give up Farzad? Oh; allow them to have nuke weapons - huh? Sorry - no dice! It's all on again folks; sorry about the misunderstanding!

If a Martian reads this thread, she'd definitely conclude that pro bush administration people on this thread have a tendency to jump on another subject when they're given a logical and reasonable response. They move to another subject, raise another question, when they receive their answer, instead of admitting how wrong they are, they move to another subject.
It's not that difficult to accept it. Not everyone is right all the time.
Why should'nt we all accept some basic values, like human life and honesty, discuss one subject and conclude, and then move to another one.

Dimitry is right Carter helped Israel more than anyone knows. Between 1947-1974 Israel fought for very bloody and expensive wars with Egypt. Carter increased aid to Israel by millions and on top of that he made peace between Israel and its most dangerous enemy. Since Carter's Camp David accord no one has much as farted in Israel's direction from Egypt. LIKE I SAID PLAINFACTO ILL TAKE THE WORD OF MANDELA, CARTER, AND TUTU OVER THE WORD OF BUSH, NETANYAHU AND YOU ANY DAY. ISRAEL UNDER IT CURRENT COMPOSITION IS AN APARTHEID STATE AND A ROGUE CRIMINAL STATE. IN THE LAST YEAR ALONE THEY HAVE BOMBED SYRIA AND INVADED LEBANON. ONLY IN AMERICA WITH OUR PROPAGANDIST PRO-ISRAELI MEDIA AND OUR POLITICALLY AND HISTORICALLY CHALLENGED POPULATION VIEWS ISRAEL IS THE VICTIM. ISRAEL IS A GIANT DRAIN ON AMERICA, AND WITHOUT OUR SUPPORT FOR ISRAEL THEFT AND APARTHEID YOU WOULDN'T FIND FOUR ARABS WILLING TO FLY INTO OUR BUILDINGS, THAT IS WHAT NO ONE WILL TELL YOU IN THE MEDIA.

That is why after 9-11 they tried to blame it on our freedom. If the Muslims hate us for our freedom why didn't they bomb Holland. In Holland you have hookers on the street and they sell marijuana in bars, yet they haven't been attacked by anyone. Our militarism, our biased support for Israeli theft and apartheid, and our desire to rule the world is why we have become a target. ANYONE WHO TELLS YOU ANYTHING ELSE IS A LIAR AND A FRAUD, AND IS COVERING UP, OR THEY ARE JUST STUPID AND DON'T KNOW ANY BETTER.

Iranians are a murderous bunch of lying scum.")Nate Smith

IF THIS GUY IS A PATRIOT, I DON'T WANT TO BE ONE, LOOK AT HIS COMMENTS THAT IS ALL THE RIGHT IS A BUNCH OF SAVAGE BLOOD THIRSTY RACISTS. It is the opinions and attitudes of people like this that makes me hope Iran gets a nuke and shuts you people and the lazy eyed psycho in the whitehouse up. Yes, when it is opportunistic they talk about how much they want to free people and how terrible their governments are, and the love they have for the people of Iran. But these same neocon scumbags where the ones that went to Baghdad and shook Saddam's hand when he actually was using chemical weapons against the Kurds and Iranians. (see Don Rumsfeld). I don't buy for one second that the rightwing in this country wants anything but money and blood from the people of the middle east. And if I came in here and made these type of comments about any race of people other than Arabs or Iranians the WP would ban me. EVERY ONE WITH HALF A BRAIN CAN SEE WHO THE REAL THREATS TO WORLD PEACE ARE EMANATING FROM. IF THE UNITED STATES ATTACKS IRAN I CAN GUARANTEE YOU THAT WE WILL ALL REGRET THE DECISION. AND THOSE OF YOU WHO THINK YOU CAN SHOCK AND AWE THE WORLD INTO LOVING AMERICA ARE FOOLS AND ARE BEING PROVEN AS SUCH EVERYDAY.

If patriotism is supporting the wholesale murder of people in defenseless third world countries you can keep that title for yourselves as well. Personally, I feel nothing but contempt for the war wanters in this country. Dimitry makes some excellent points, and as usual Plainfacto has nothing but ridiculous unsupported conspiracy theories to support his vile positions, and Nate Smith has nothing but racial epithets. THIS IS IT PEOPLE, THIS IS WHAT THE RIGHTWING IS IN THIS COUNTRY, THEY REALLY AREN'T ANY BETTER THAN NAZIS, IF THEY HAD ABSOLUTE POWER AND WE DIDN'T HAVE THE BILL OF RIGHTS AND SEPARATION OF POWERS TO PROTECT US, I GUARANTEE YOU THESE BABY KILLERS WOULD SLAUGHTER AS MANY PEOPLE AS THE NAZIS DID IN GERMANY. THEY ARE NO DIFFERENT THAN SADDAM OR THE MULLAHS IN IRAN, THEY ARE TWO SIDES OF THE SAME COIN. Vicious bigots with an agenda of might makes right and murder.

When the day comes that good people of all nations, and of all persuasions refuse to either kill or die for governments, ideology, religion, and or profit than the world will instantly transform. Explore pacifism and peace, and reject these people. They are liars, they are bigots, and they just want to kill people out of ignorance and racism, because it makes them feel macho and makes them feel better about their male inadequacies. That is why most republican leaders are either impotent, perverse, or self-hating homosexuals.They have no, no facts to back up their arguments, all they have is fear, smears, and racial epithets. They have to kill people or threaten to kill poor people in the third world, hell I bet violence is the only thing that gets their Johnson stiff.

In regards to who is threat to world peace remember this, Israel and America in the last 50 years have killed between 1-3 million muslims, and America averages an aggressive war every three years. Meanwhile Iran has not invaded any country since Nader Shah attacked India in a vain attempt to lift it of the British Empire. The proof is in the pudding, the real butchers reside in Tel Aviv and Washington.

The Islamic Republic is a horrible undemocratic and mismanaged state that will eventually have to go through massive changes or die on its own accord. Most Iranian people are very pro-American, in fact most Iranians have family living in the US and they love American culture. Iran was the only Islamic country that had spontaneous demonstrations against Al quaeda and in support of America after 9-11, this is a fact. Thousands turned out in the streets risking the retribution of their totalitarian state. SEND THE IRANIAN PEOPLE THE SAME MESSAGE OF PEACE THEY TRIED TO SEND TO AMERICA, NONE OF THESE PEOPLE TALKING TOUGH ONLINE ARE GOING TO HAVE THEIR A---S ON THE LINE WHEN THE PROVERBIAL CRAP HITS THE FAN. But the day the first American or Israeli bomb drops on Iran you will see all this good will dissipate and the coming war will make Iraq look like a picnic.

Bush is a liar, mass murderer, torturer, thief, and war criminal; he has done more damage to America than 100 Mahmoud Ahmadinejads. Patriots these people are not, they just like to dress up their racist blood lust at Patriotism. WELL THEY AREN'T FOOLING ME, I THINK MOST AMERICANS ARE GOOD AND KIND, BUT WHY IS THE VOCAL WARMONGERING MINORITY THE ONES THAT SEEM TO HAVE ALL THE SAY? WHEN ARE OUR POLITICIANS GOING TO LISTEN TO US AND FIGURE OUT THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE ALWAYS MORE PEACE-LOVING THAN THEIR LEADERS AND THE MEDIA WHO CAN'T WAIT FOR THE RATINGS FROM ANOTHER WAR.

Seriously this is no cliche give peace a chance, Anti-Americanism is on the rise across the globe, and it is time that the peace movement and those of us who care about human-rights send a message to the world that we are not with these people. We are with the people of every race, every nationality, and every creed who reject violence. Sometimes you have to fight a war, but most of the times we send in the military it is not just, it is short-sighted, and we pay a huge price not just in blood and treasure but in moral standing as well.

Pentagon Weighs Use of Deception in a Broad Arena
By THOM SHANKER and ERIC SCHMITT

Published: December 13, 2004

ASHINGTON, Dec. 12 - The Pentagon is engaged in bitter, high-level debate over how far it can and should go in managing or manipulating information to influence opinion abroad, senior Defense Department civilians and military officers say.

Such missions, if approved, could take the deceptive techniques endorsed for use on the battlefield to confuse an adversary and adopt them for covert propaganda campaigns aimed at neutral and even allied nations.
````````````````````````

Er herm, now could the contents of this article possibly be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

Well Dimitry where are you? Didn't you want to attempt to wow, amaze, and pummel me with your superior knowledge and lack of wisdom again? You were about to try and correct me of what I know about 'operation: ajax' - right? You were going to point out that we had already interfered enough in Iranian gov't and pin the assassination PM Razmarra and Mossadq on a trigger happy Lee Oswald? Now, that is something I can tell you about sometime. Hey missile man, are you out there for a debate or what?

But it turns out there is an element of truth to Ayatollah Ahmad Khatami's claim in Friday prayers that the American account, and video, "is in fact a funny and false show."

Let me get this straight: An Ayatollah told the truth while an American
Aministrator misrepresented
the truth?

I wonder what nation's women and
children will my own nation
be responsible for their
slaughter, under false
pretenses I might add,
next!

It is uncivilized what we do
as a nation: Lie, kill then
mirepresent the facts!

And the person who wants
me to substantiate my
position, must have
his or her head
in the proverbial
sand!

I feel sorry for those individuals in
the world who truly believe in
American idealism and still
support it - in America,
Iraq, Iran, Pakistan
and elsewhere.

Many of these individuals serve up
their own sons and daughters,
as a result of still believing
that they are supporting
a noble cause, as opposed
to a twisted vision,
held by some, of
worldwide-
domination!

These would be patriots, not
just in America, want to
believe - however
the facts belie
their beliefs!

Not to sound too apocalyptic,
however, shouldn't one
believe that the
so-called most
powerful nation
in the world
would be
the most
honest
nation?

And I still say it: We are already at war in Pakistan, and with Iran!

ceflynline@msn.com,

Thanks for your thoughtful comments.

Of course my interest in this discussion had less to do with defending Bush, and more to do with challenging unsustantiated comments by some here that the Navy was implicitly involved in covert deception of the US public.

I owe a lot to the Navy. It made me a better person. Without the opportunities it offered me, I would most likely never would have escaped the streets of south Chicago - and be either dead now, or sitting on in some bar a drunken waste of a life.

The Navy's core values of honor, courage, and commitment became mine. And though I know the Navy has made many mistakes over the course of the years (Heck, I can run off a litany longer than most anti-military folks can; like Tailhook, the New Jersey scandal, sexual harassment at the Naval Academy, etc..) MY Navy learned from all of them - and, IMHO, is a better institution as a result.

So, I suppose out of fierce loyalty to that institition, I won't accept unsustantiated accusations made on this board that the Navy knowingly participated in a conspiracy to deceive the American public they serve. And was therefore compelled to press for a more logical refutiating argument of the evidence on the videotape - and the speculation that the Navy "forged" it.

Hopefully, my points have caused those making those accusations to revisit the premises of their argument and amend their accusations.

'Peanut Jerk' is almost funny; you need a better qualifier though.

I know enough about Mossadeq, but that is classified info; I'd have to kill you after I told you.

That's funny!

//==Iranians are a murderous bunch of lying scum...Caliphate....Jimmy Carter gave up Iran and we are still paying for the peanut Jerks failures==//

You know I never said that. Nor would I say it like that. Is this an attempt of banal humor? It didn't take. You need to bring in irony; one of the more important elements of humor - first!

==I know about Mossadeq and the CIA.==

You do not. At least not in a way that makes it unpleasant to use it for a debate point. Learn more.

==Oh, did I hit a soft spot with you when I didn't speak highly of Jimmy boy? Sorry. Are you at work again tonight? I'll give you a lot of credit for being a devout family man. God Bless you.==

You can drop the ridiculous appeals to emotion. It is a waste of everyone's time and it is banal.

==But the revolutionery forces of Iran had their foothold, and the ME situation became far more dangerous and volatile from that point forward.==

You really must stop taking these shortcuts. Adlibing this thing has not worked out for people clearly smarter than you.

I know about Mossadeq and the CIA. But this conversayion isn't about that. At least; it didn't start out liike that. Farzad -er 'Frank' - and I were discussing the Palestinians and them being a 'tool' of Iran. Why do you want to go there? To try to rub the US nose into another pile - where you feel you have a better advantage to argue with? Cool your jets - missile man - you turned off your guidance system.

==Iranians are a murderous bunch of lying scum...Caliphate....Jimmy Carter gave up Iran and we are still paying for the peanut Jerks failures==

Do you have anything smart to say?

Why is self-embarassment so in fashion today among the wingnut set?

Oh, did I hit a soft spot with you when I didn't speak highly of Jimmy boy? Sorry. Are you at work again tonight? I'll give you a lot of credit for being a devout family man. God Bless you.

But I am not fond of the idea that the hostage situation was a lost opportunity. A lot of people was quite upset - read 'mad' - about Jimmy's plan to use diplomacy to win over the Iranian revolutioneries. He lost a lot of credibillity with the American people, and nearly all of our NATO allies were angry about his methods. And when he decided that his speil wasn't working he decided to use too little/too late. That pretty much sums up the Carter years.

Yes, he did Oslo, but like you said - it didn't work out. Republicans - which I am not - often used Carter as the measure by which things should not have been done. So many people were really fed up with Carter that they voted Republicans into office - so that something like that wouldn't happen again as it did.

But the revolutionery forces of Iran had their foothold, and the ME situation became far more dangerous and volatile from that point forward.

==Carter was in office when the American Embassy was taken hostage by the Iranian revolutioneries. He didn't see it coming, and certainly didn't talk his way out of that situation. ==

Google "Mossadeq", "Iran" and "Shah". Main CIA report from that time is availble on the web.

Come back with rudimentary knowledge of the subject of discussion.

Iranians are a murderous bunch of lying scum .All you peace boys are gonna be really sorry when they lead you out to a trench and shovel you under alive to save on bullets .Useful idiots .Then you can hope Hillary and Obama save you with another gutted military .Any of you wimps good at hand to hand ,I don't think so ,enjoy dying for the Caliphate. But it will be an honorable though stupid death you can feel good about ,sing KumBayAh as they fill in your trench .Jimmy Carter gave up Iran and we are still paying for the peanut Jerks failures.

Carter was in office when the American Embassy was taken hostage by the Iranian revolutioneries. He didn't see it coming, and certainly didn't talk his way out of that situation.

He failed to do very much about it - except sculpt - and it didn't work. He really could have done a lot more, and when Reagan took office, the Iranians knew the BS session was over.

We may have stopped the IRG way back at the beginning if Carter would have acted like Reagen did. Many a papaer has speculuated this prospect, and many of them I read were quite correct.

==I'll give Carter some credit;==

Do some thinking for a change and stop embarassing yourself.

There are two seminal diplomatic events in the modern hisory of the Middle East. One is Carters' Camp David Accords. The other is Bush One's Oslo Peace Treaty.

The first one held over the years, the second did not.

I'll give Carter some credit; but not as much as you think. Reagan didn't put up with the BS as Carter tried to sculpt with it. Big difference...

Sure - the Egyptian side of his plan worked - but the Palestinian side failed - thanks to Yassur Arafat...

==The 'do-nothing' president that should have done something. Oh, boy - you can sure pick 'em! Ol' Jimmy tried to do a lot in the short run, but in the long run he was a miserable failure as a foreign policy genius. I've read excerpts from his book and I've seen him on various TV talk shows trying to sell his book - and he is still wrong! Wrong then; wrong now.==

Very, very foolish glock-man.

Carter has secured the Israeli future by negotiating the peace treaty with Egypt. Without Egypt as an anti-Israeli military force, the arab front has fallen apart, with no existential threat to Israel possible. It is the single most important diplomatic achievement in the entire history of the Arab-Israeli conflict and Carter takes the credit for it. No other President since has come close to equalling that achivement.

There should be a statue to that man in Tel-Aviv or Israeli Jerusalem.

You are relly batting something like a 0.00001, PF. First the repeated "butt" innuendos, and now this ignorant anti-Carter rant. It is sad to watch you flail.

//And in regards to Israel I'll take the word of three noble peace prize winners that have all condemned Israel as an apartheid state(see mandela, tutu, and Carter) over yours and the American media's any day.//

Oh, now there a nice choice - Jimmy Carter. The 'do-nothing' president that should have done something. Oh, boy - you can sure pick 'em! Ol' Jimmy tried to do a lot in the short run, but in the long run he was a miserable failure as a foreign policy genius. I've read excerpts from his book and I've seen him on various TV talk shows trying to sell his book - and he is still wrong! Wrong then; wrong now.

Try leaving Israel alone for a year and then you can say what you want about them. I know they can get along just fine with out having Hamas attacks. Which are funded by Iran that is meant to destabilize Israel; the Iranians don't give a s__t if they get all of the Paletinian people
killed to make their BS arguemnet work.

//LIKE I SAID I HOPE EVERY LITTLE COUNTRY THAT SCARES YOU PEOPLE AND THAT OUR BLOODTHIRSTY GOVERNMENT THREATENS GETS NUKES, JUST SO YOU NECONS SHUT UP AND LEARN TO PLAY NICE//

Yea. We'll just let bloodthirsty Iran get them and watch the whole ME go up in a thermonuclear blast just as soon as they make the circumstance work for them politically first - instead. We are not going to give them the privelidge to have them - forget it. But if China has already given nukes to Iran; then they are already waiting for the oppertune moment. That would amount to 'lying in wait' - which makes it 'first degree'.

No wonder no one can tell the difference between you and another Iranian national; you sure do not realize what it is to be an American yet. You law degree doesn't mean anything at this point. Hiding behind that isn't just stupid; its moronic. Sure, you got youreslf out of Iran; but just living in this country - does not an American make.)

IF I HAVE TO THINK LIKE A RIGHTWING SAVAGE TO BE AN AMERICAN, YOU CAN KEEP THE TITLE. I AM HUMAN BEING FIRST, AND I SUPPORT MORALITY, PEACE, AND JUSTICE FIRST AND FOREMOST. IF AMERICA BECOMES AND INSTRUMENT OF VIOLENCE AND OPPRESSION I WILL NOT JUST SIT BACK AND SAY OH HOW WONDERFUL THIS COUNTRY IS. I DON'T NEED YOUR ACCEPTANCE, I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU THINK, AND IT ISN'T ABOUT ME. It is about facts and the truth, and the warmongers in this country are the enemies of both.

LET SEE GEORGE BUSH IS A PATRIOTIC GOOD AMERICAN BUT HE HAS KILLED 4,000 OF OUR TROOPS, CRIPPLED 10,000 OF OUR PEOPLE, BANKRUPTED OUR TREASURY, AND TURNED THE US DOLLAR INTO THE PESO NORTH. All so him and his daddies buddies could rake in the more stolen cash and accumulate more power of the oppressed people who don't want them there. Wow with patriots like these we don't need enemies. Savages like you who want to bomb countries and invade them against their will and then make them pay for the privelege are the real enemies of everyone on the globe, this country included.

And in regards to Israel I'll take the word of three noble peace prize winners that have all condemned Israel as an apartheid state(see mandela, tutu, and Carter) over yours and the American media's any day.
Additionally, LIKE I SAID I HOPE EVERY LITTLE COUNTRY THAT SCARES YOU PEOPLE AND THAT OUR BLOODTHIRSTY GOVERNMENT THREATENS GETS NUKES, JUST SO YOU NECONS SHUT UP AND LEARN TO PLAY NICE.

//You mean tiny Israel that has received every high tech weapon and somewhere in the neighborhood of 200-300 billion in handouts from America, not to mention Germany, England, and the international jewish groups. And tiny Israel that has 200 nuclear warheads.//

I can see that these other countries - other than the US - see the need to allow Israel to continue as they are. It isn't Israel that is on a rampage across the ME to conquer. It has clearly been Iran that is inciting thes countries to attack on their behalf thru funding/trainers. In fact, whatever aggression Israel has done is to assure that their own space - little as it is - remains safe. Israel is obviuosly an established nation; the sooner it is left alone - the sooner the problems for you and Iran will all go away. Someday - maybe - you will figure this much out.

And don't try to tell me, that they are interested in the liberation of the Palestinian people. That is, and has always been - a purely BS excuse. They do not - nor have they ever - given a rat's ass about the Palestinian people. The Iranians have alsways tried to save face by hiding behind this bovine scat. And you like to save face just as they do.

No wonder no one can tell the difference between you and another Iranian national; you sure do not realize what it is to be an American yet. You law degree doesn't mean anything at this point. Hiding behind that isn't just stupid; its moronic. Sure, you got youreslf out of Iran; but just living in this country - does not an American make.

The rest of what you said is nothing more than the same gobble-d-gook already proven wrong rhetoric, so I am not going to bother with that rubbish. Live where you want; you have that freedom now.

Maybe you should join the US Army and carry a rifle; then see the world from that perspective. Of course you won't - that was pure rhetoric...

You mean tiny Israel that has received every high tech weapon and somewhere in the neighborhood of 200-300 billion in handouts from America, not to mention Germany, England, and the international jewish groups. And tiny Israel that has 200 nuclear warheads.

I think about 50-70 percent of Americans are not bigotted and bloodthirsty, but somehow the oligarchs that have taken over the media and the government continue to pursue their war policies against whoever threatens them. Additionally, as US citizen I believe that the fake bloodthirsty partiots are the biggest threats to this country. The useless wars we fight doesn't help anybody except the same lobby groups that always benefit from war. 2.5 TRILLION DOLLARS PEOPLE AND 10,000 CRIPPLES WHO LOVES AMERICA, NOT THE WARMONGERS? The RIGHTWING IN this country is the biggest threat to global peace in the world, and this an indisputable fact. And you know what I can stay where ever I like, and enjoy southern california, so don't worry you won't be getting rid of me any time soon. And I hate the redstate warmongers mindset people regardless of where they live, whether they live in iran, America, or Israel. NO COUNTRY, GROUP, RACE, RELIGION HAS EITHER A MONOPOLY ON MORALITY OR ON EVIL.

LIKE I SAID I HOPE THE ENTIRE THREAD WORLD GETS NUKES AND THEN WE WILL SEE THE BRAVE NEOCONS SIT DOWN, SHUT UP, AND MIND THEIR OWN DAMN BUSINESS. AND THEN WE WILL FINALLY SEE THE WESTERN POWERS, CHINA, AND RUSSIA GET SERIOUS ABOUT PEACE, COLLECTIVE SECURITY AND DISARMAMENT.

Judging by how savage and bloodthirsty the people on this and other sites are, and ignorant they are of the world around them, the third world nations need an insurance policy against the stupidity of people like Bush.

//WOW INVADING A COUNTRY THE SIZE OF DELAWARE I AM SO IMPRESSED WITH THE VIRILITY AND THE SIZE OF YOUR MANHOOD//

Oh sure, and the size of Israel is slightly smaller than the state of New Jersey. I guess the size of the ME mindset is determined by how big a country they are willing to attack? I am impressed; the need to attack a little country like Israel poses such a large threat to the entire Muslim world?

And the size of their own manhood is locked and determined upon such a tiny country as Israel? How pathetic is this - what you claim?

And if you are so unhappy with the US; why do you remain? To remind us Americans of your superiority? I'm sure there are a lot more countries that you could choose from if you so desired. What is wrong with EU?

Sure, you are worried about your 'relatives'. Worry that the Iranian leaders are useless and ineffectual, corrupt, and willing to incite wars in Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq -against tiny, small Israel.

After all, the leadership cannot do what id best for themselves, except trying to save face. They cannot even figure out how much oil they need for themselves. They have recieved 'tons' of money to build their own oil refineries - several times over - and yet they cry that they have to import enough gasoline?

And the best solution they can aspire is for nuclear power; what rubbish! Yea, I would get out of Iran - too! I can't blame you for that. Since you hate the US/Bush so much, I would leave the US if I felt as you apparently do!

Booo!

Plainfacto, I'm done with you, the next time you say anything that is supported by facts, logical analysis, and reason will be the first time. Like I said, George Bush and his cabal of warmongers don't own the world, and this messed up perception of his is the cause of all these problems. In fact, it isn't even about George Bush, the problem is much bigger than that. Some Americans are ready willing able to destroy a country and not even know the first thing about that country, except the lieS that his been fed to them by biased parties.

A LOT OF PEOPLE ASK ME WHY I AM SUCH A BULLY OR ACT SO ANGRY, BECAUSE I DON'T WANT THAT BUMPKIN TO LIGHT UP TEHRAN LIKE BAGHDAD BECAUSE HAVE MANY FAMILY MEMBERS THERE. I ALSO KNOW FOR FACT, THAT AMERICA'S INTERESTS ARE NOT SERVED IN THE LEAST BY MORE WARFARE, AND THAT IN FACT OUR 50 YEAR POLICY OF MILITARISM AND DIRTY LITTLE WARS IS RUINING US. NOW IF GEORGE BUSH WAS THREATENING, ON A PACK LIES TO BOMB THE CRAP OUT OF YOUR COUSINS, AUNTS, AND GRANPARENTS YOU MIGHT BE A LITTLE ANGRY. SO YOU KNOW WHAT IRANIANS HAVE A RIGHT TO NUCLEAR TECHNOLOGY AND WE HAVE RIGHT TO USE CAP LOCK BUTTON, YOU GOT A PROBLEM WITH IT GO FIND THE NEAREST BRIDGE AND JUMP OFF.

I used to believe that Iran shouldn't develop nuclear weapons, but quite frankly that is the only thing that will keep that country safe. I have seen the smears against my race and culture, and I have seen the lies to generate warfare. And by the attitudes that I have witnessed, and the ignorance of the issues I have witnessed about the middle east on this board, I think they should go for the bomb forthright. THAT IS THE ONLY WAY THEY CAN PROTECT THEMSELVES FROM THE BLOOD LUST OF ISRAEL AND THE AMERICAN RIGHT. AND THESE TWO GROUPS ARE BY FAR THE BIGGEST THREATS TO WORLD PEACE, NOT IRAN. IN FACT, I HOPE THEY TEST THOSE NUKES JUST TO SHUT ALL YOU SAVAGES UP, YOU DON'T MAKE ANY NOISE ABOUT ALL OPTIONS ON THE TABLE WITH NORTH KOREA DO YOU TOUGH TALKING NEOCONS?

Personally, I hate violence, and nuclear weapons, but a war against Iran will disastrous for America, for Iran, and for the world at large. And probably the only way the Iranians will be safe from the Israeli and American right destroying and tearing apart a 5,000 year culture is if they get nukes. That is all the American right understands, might makes right, we own the world because we have the biggest weapons. Well you know after what I have seen this government do to Iraq and the threats they have made against everyone they think they can bully, I want them to test tomorrow and piss and scare all of you off.

SOMEONE HERE CALLED IRANIANS COWARDS, REALLY A COUNTRY THAT FIGHTS WARS EVERY THREE YEARS AGAINST STATES THAT HAVE 1/10,000 THE DEFENSE BUDGET AND 1/10TH POPULATION FOR ITS OWN PERSONAL GREED IS SO BRAVE? MAKING PEACE IS BRAVE. BEATING UP THE RETARDED KID ON THE BLOCK AND TAKING HIS WALLET ISN'T BRAVE. HOME OF THE FREE, LAND OF THE BRAVE, AND WE KICKED GRENADA'S A-- TOO. I KNOW THE GRENADINES WHERE ASSEMBLING AN ARMADA AND THEY WHERE GOING TO INVADE SOUTH FLORIDA AND MAKE US ALL LISTEN TO CALYPSO MUSIC OR SOMETHING. WOW INVADING A COUNTRY THE SIZE OF DELAWARE I AM SO IMPRESSED WITH THE VIRILITY AND THE SIZE OF YOUR MANHOOD. Please some of you have no honor, no brains, no morality. The only thing that keeps you warm is the feeling of superiority you get from being able kill people that frighten you. Frankly, if Iran tests a nuke you'll all shut the hell up with your tough talk, yeah you are real brave, I am real impressed with your bravery. AND YOU HAVE CHANGED MY MIND, AFTER READING YOUR POSTS I HOPE THE IRANIANS ARE WORKING TO BUILD A NUKE(which by the way there is no evidence for)JUST SO YOU GUYS CAN FLAGELLATE YOURSELVES AND LEARN SOME MANNERS. I HOPE AS MANY LITTLE COUNTRIES AS POSSIBLE GET NUKES, AND KEEP THE BLOODTHIRSTY WARMONGERS IN AMERICA AT BAY. BECAUSE HALF THIS COUNTRY THINKS THE OTHER HALF IS INSANE AND THE REST OF THE WORLD HATES YOU WAR SUPPORTERS AND WITH GOOD CAUSE.

This post should disabuse all you fake patriots who are destroying this country with you insane blood lust, that I actually give a crap about your opinion. I REALLY DON'T. I don't care if you like me, I don't care if you think I love America, wah, wah, wah. Your ignorance of the world is no longer cute, it really never was. And I hope, Syria gets a nuke, I hope Iran gets a nuke, I hope every country you want to target for execution gets a nuke so that these insane neocons will learn a little manners. All they understand is the language of force and it is about time the poor oppressed third world leveled the playing field with their post-colonialist oppressors. Hell I hope Venezuela gets a nuke too, and keeps your grubby paws of latin America as well.

AND ONE LAST QUESTION WHO IS THE ONLY COUNTRY TO SPECIFICALLY TARGET CIVILIANS WITH THEIR NUKES, OWE THAT IS RIGHT, THE GOOD OLE US OF A. EVERY THIRD WORLD NATION THAT CAN AFFORD SHOULD GET NUKES, WHEN THAT HAPPENS THEN YOU WILL SEE ALL OF THE WESTERN AND RICH COUNTRIES ALL OF SUDDEN GET REALLY SERIOUS ABOUT DISARMEMENT.

Frank: I don't know what the radio configuration is currently typical of those warships, but since the whole point to bridge to bridge radio is to be able to talk to vessels in your own vicinity, I suspect that any fixed radio would feed a bridge mounted whip antenna to cut down on long cable runs.
On my Frigate, the USS KNOX, (FF1052) that would have put it perhaps fifty feet up. That strikes me as likely to be normal for small boy warships. Super Tankers, Carriers, Tenders,and other much larger ships perforce get farther up, but you really want to keep local ops radios antennas as low as possible.

I don't have my ARRL Antenna book handy to find the 4/3's earth formula for calculating distance to the horizon, so I am still guessing, and my experience tells me that to get line of sight to the center of the Straights, given that the intruder might easily be up to thirty miles from his target, to use a shore station to do the jamming he would need about 100 ft HAT.

My personal guess is that the Phillipine Monkey was originally a bored Radio Operator in a slow moving freighter or Supertanker, and that other bored Radio Operators took up the tradition. Like CB in the US, access to radios by bored, unmotivated operators, who discover they can do almost anything and not get punished because there just aren't enough Communications Police, and not nearly enough Communications courts, to catch and punish them, draws those pathological types to the bands. Maritime Mobile isn't any more immune than CB.

If this were left where it belongs, out in the fleet where everybody gets paid to learn to deal with it, it would be a good subject for some chat room somewhere.

The general problem is that there are far to many hotheads like Rangers lead, who want the U.S. to shoot first more often because they don't mind the consequences, and some of those hot heads are high in the current administration. They feel justified in telling the world how it should behave, making America seem arrogant, bellicose, and unacceptably belligerent. Worst among these is George Bush, who believes that he is Elect of God to tell all those heathens how they should live their lives.

Nothing in his publicly addressed policy toward Iran can be justified by Iran's behavior, anymore than the rest of the world would be justified in attacking the U.S. because its President is a semi-articulate loud mouth. Our reputation in the world is at its nadir because of George's posturing, which is bad enough, but we are in two wars that might have been avoided if the President hadn't wanted to be in a war some where so desperately that he let us get rolled into tribal war in Afghanistan, (where we at least might have done some good if we had concentrated on Nation building and rebuilding, instead of mentally bugging out almost as soon as we got there) and he dragged us into a war in Iraq, that he had promised his friends, where there was NO JUSTIFICATION at all for the war. He has a third war that he wants, perhaps to distance himself from his father's treason, against Iran. He has to find some plausible excuse for the war, and rolling out his threats based on Iran's perfectly legal, and quite reasonable, nuclear program isn't getting the rise out of Congress it was intended to get. To paraphrase Molly Maguire number Thirteen, "When Congress wouldn't listen, he grew desperate!"

Because we CAN"T let him start his third war, incompetently chosen and incompetently run, we must use every forum available to call his misuse of situations and incidents, and his utter mangling of the English Language to the attention of the people, so they don't stampede into another Splendid Little War.

Finding excuses for George's excuses isn't a good thing. Any self proclaimed Christian ought to consider that he supposedly believes in a last judgment, and damnation for those who haven't met the last judge's standards. If you are part of starting another war, how will you face the hundreds of thousands of murdered victims of that war when they cry out against you? Saying, "I had to support my President and my Party." is unlikely to mollify them in the least.

==Mr. Zarkh,
Some advice from and old friend... Never argue with a pig. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.==

Sounds like good advice, Hawk58! I am sorry I don't know your last name.

It was Saturday night and I was at work. It was cold again.

==That we will not accept - regardless of what the NPT may say.==

Then we should leave that treaty or try to renegotiate the NPT. Starting a war in contrvention of international law again, undermines the NPT, probably fatally, and in the long term that is much more important than Iranian knowledge on enrichment.

Mr. Zarkh,
Some advice from and old friend... Never argue with a pig. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

cefllynline@msn.com writes:

-- Any shore based intruder would need quite a bit of HAT (Height Above Terrain) and reasonable power (say 25 watts or more) to get "Full Quieting" FM communications --

Most mounted shipboard marine radios have 25W of transmit power (example at http://www.icomamerica.com/en/products/marine/mountedvhf/m304/specifications.aspx) and the antenna on the Hopper receiving the signal would probably located on their mast, close to 100 feet about sea level.

The clear signal could have come from anywhere - a transmiter ashore or an enclosed housing from a boat nearby.

//Actually, Iran doesn't really owe you an explanation, as to why they chose to utilize their unalineable right under the NPT to have a non-military nuclear program. They have a right to it under international law and they should be allowed to have it//

They will have their nuclear plants soon enough, I read that the Russians have resumed shipments of uranium hexaflouride. I am not hip to that ideal but we cannot stop them - unless we prove they are making weapons.

That we will not accept - regardless of what the NPT may say. Talk about lighting the fuse on a already bad situation. All we need is another situation like the Pakistan/India standoff. I don't believe that Iran has peaceful intentions, this has nothing to do with being a 'good doggy' either. They are asking to escalate the danger level in the ME. What if they have an accidental explosion? They are neophytes in their own nuke development.

So what do you do out there im Mass. on a fridday night? Take the family out for seafood? Weather nice?

//I DO THIS SO THAT I CAN TRY TO MAKE THOSE WHO VOTE OR THINK REPUBLICAN LOOK LIKE SHMUCKS. PARDON ME, I JUST USED A JEWISH IDIOM.//

I tried to be humorous; that was the point!

==Ha ha ha; I just thought I would push a bug up his butt==

"push a bug up his butt" appears to be a rather common refrain for you. It is an interesting choice of words for your banality.

==And you belive this BS? Oh - c'mon - give me a feakin' break!==

Actually, Iran doesn't really owe you an explanation, as to why they chose to utilize their unalineable right under the NPT to have a non-military nuclear program. They have a right to it under international law and they should be allowed to have it.

Your and Bush's constant questions as to why, why, why they are utilizing their rights has no meaning. There is no "why" in the NPT.

Maybe, like they say in Guantanamo, you should write to Ahmadinejad and ask him to explain it.

I AM THE GREAT AND ALL-CAPABLE ATTORNEY FARZAD. I EAT ALL BUSH'S STATEMENTS LIKE SO MANY FAVA BEANS. I KNOW BUSH AND HIS NEOCONS AREN'T THE PROBLEM; I AM JUST DOING THIS SO I CAN CONVINCE EVERYONE THAT THE DEMOCRATS NEED TO GET INTO OFFICE. I DO THIS SO THAT I CAN TRY TO MAKE THOSE WHO VOTE OR THINK REPUBLICAN LOOK LIKE SHMUCKS. PARDON ME, I JUST USED A JEWISH IDIOM.
EVERYTHING I HAVE SAID IS NOTHING MORE THAN RHETORICAL STATEMENTS THAT HAVE ALREADY PROVEN TO BE WRONG. BUT I DO IT ANYWAY, SO I CAN CHANGE PEOPLES VIEWS WHO HAVE A WEAKER MINDSET THAN MYSELF. I AM A NEODEM THAT IS UNDER THE MISTAKEN IMPRESSION THAT WHEN THE EVOLVED NEODEMS GET INTO OFFICE, WE CAN SPEND LIKE THERE IS NO TOMORROW ON SOCIAL PROGRAMS THAT ARE INHERENTLY CORRUPT, LIKE NATIONAL HEALTH PLAN.
WE EVOLVED NEODEMS BELIEVE THAT IT IS IMPORTANT TO LET THE INTERNATIONAL OIL GIANTS AND CRIMINALS MAKE ALL THE MONEY OFF OF US STUPID AMERICANS, LIKE MILKING COWS UNTIL THEY ARE DRY. TO MAKE SURE THEY ARE MILKED AND UNABLE TO DEFEND THEMSELVES ANY LONGER. THAT IS WHAT THE NATIONAL HEALTH PLAN CRIMINALS WILL DO, TAKE THE LAST GASP OF AIR OUT OF WHAT USED TO BE A GREAT COUNTRY UNDER GOD.
(Ha ha ha; I just thought I would push a bug up his butt. He has a good sense of humor and he can see that it is not a joke - it is the opposite view as his - just with capital letters. I got the idea to do this from Frank)

//IRAN'S GOVERNMENT HAS SOME VERY SOCIALISTIC TENDENCIES WHEN IT COMES TO SUBSIDIES. THEY SUBSIDIZE BREAD, FUEL, AND GASOLINE. GASOLINE IN IRAN COSTS BECAUSE OF THE SUBSIDIES, ABOUT 10% OF WHAT IT DOES IN THE USA. GAS LINES AND RATIONING ARE COMMON IN IRAN, WORSE THAN MID 1970S IN THE USA. THE REASONS ARE MULTIPLE, ONE IS LACKING OF FOREIGN INVESTMENT IN REFINING CAPACITY WHICH ACTUALLY CAUSES IRAN TO HAVE TO IMPORT GASOLINE//

Yea, and if my gradma had balls, she would be my granddad...

Can't accuse the Iranians of being fiscally conservative; that's a fact. Gee, kinda makes one wonder what they are spending all of their money on - eh? With such good big buddies like Russia and China, I can't say that I feel sorry for them either. They still manage to send of enough oil to China and India - though. It is funny that they get the oil and Iranians do not. I guess the Iranians can't cut loose with enough of what is pumped out of the ground in their own country to supply their own needs? And you belive this BS? Oh - c'mon - give me a feakin' break!

//Sorry, Israel wanting to keep its middle eastern nuclear monopoly is no reason why Iran should either have to change its entire economic system or go bankrupt, just so israel can feel safe?//

Inversely, we cannot afford to make peace with Iran on their terms. Call it political blackmail, even though that isn't quite proper; more like a reverse-engineered threat.

Iran's workings in Iraq to keep it destabilized is already a undisputable proof that they are hindrance to allowing Maliki's gov't move forward. However you may slice it, Iran's influence is not necissary, it is unwelcome, and they are interfering. That alone - despite whatever US president may be in office - would be compelled to deal with this situation with an aggressive posture.

Except Hillary - she will end up doing precisely the wrong thing and have a REAL mess on our hands. We cannot afford to do it as Hillary or Obama wants. It would be going from bad to worse. Obama wants us out now - the worst idea on his plan. That would be economic suicide.

Iran's friends - China and Russia - are the bullies that keep Iran's furnace stoked with fuel to continue. Their excuse is 'regional peace' but I think it is Russia's hard feeling over Afghanistan/US involvement that has 'poisoned their well'. I think that dealing with Putin is useful right now; he wants to make Russia work - he has a lot on his 'dinner plate' right now.

sic Iranian agent, actually I am iranian, but unfortunately no one pays me for my political analytic abilities, although they should judging by the mental midget phoney journalists that populate the American media.

Hmmm, the intellectually brilliant Dao can't answer the substance of my post, he just has to turn to the personal insult card. I wasted my time on you, you obviously aren't a realist, just another bloodthirsty savage of the American right, just as bad as the bloodthirsty savages of the Iranian right that dominate their government. This how you know I am not a Iranian. Ahmadinejad looks like a chimp, and Khameni is a smelly ignorant cleric who shouldn't be allowed to be a garbage man. Sounds like I am Rev. Guard all the way. You guys amuse me so much!!!!!

And calling people ignorant, typing in big letters to signify yelling and screaming is indicative of a bully, a cyber bully who hides behind his computer. Posting constantly makes people question whether you are a loner with nothing better to do. Or perhaps a paid agent of Iran hard at work.)

DAO YOU ARE THE ONE WHO INSULTED ME, I STATED VERY PLAINLY THAT YOU ARE IGNORANT ABOUT IRAN, AND THAT IS QUITE OBVIOUS FROM YOUR POSTS. I AM DONE JOSTLING WITH YOU GUYS, GO AHEAD IF YOU CAN'T PROVIDE BETTER INFO, JUST START WITH THE INSULTS AND THE QUESTIONING OF LOYALTIES BIT, I REALLY DON'T CARE WHAT ANY OF YOU THINK! Good night now, and by the way I type my average post in about 5 minutes, I read fast, think fast, and type fast, that is the only way I got through law school as a procrastinator who is actually very social. So if you can't keep up, go cry to someone else.

DAO, those are the two easiest questions I have had to answer, now ask yourself if you have a free media how come no one ever tells you this information? Am I more brilliant than all the journalist in America, or are they purposefully lying to you and acting as Bush's active accomplices. I just have a hard time believing that this obvious fact, that I relayed in my messages below is lost on the megabillion dollar media in this country with all the resources at their disposal. IF YOU WANT REAL INFO READ THE FOREIGN ENGLISH LANGUAGE PRESS THAT WAY YOU CAN SIFT THROUGH THE DIFFERENT BIASES. IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT BRITTNEY SPEARS CHACHA LOOKS LIKE OR WHAT DRUGS SHE IS DOING RECENTLY GO TO THE AMERICAN MEDIA.

IM DONE FOR THE EVENING FELLAS GOING TO A GOOD FRIENDS B-DAY PARTY.

So Farzad, if Iran is so peace loving then why doesn't it just give up the uranium enrichment business. Sure you can argue it is within their right and that Israel got it first. But just for the sake of argument why not just give up the enrichment and just get the stuff from France or Russia?

Frankly nobody believes Iran is just in it for the energy producing need. )Dao

AS USUAL YOU GUYS DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IRAN AND YOU MAKE CRAZY GENERALIZATIONS THAT ARE FED TO YOU LIKE BABY FOOD BY THE BUSH ADMINIST