Plainfacto,
Someone once said that just because you sleep in the garage, it does not not make you a car. Get my drift? Political Christianity, political Islam - both have a lot in common!

Dimitry,
When I visited George Washington's plantation in Mount Vernon Virginia (then managed by the DAR), the first stop on the tour was at the slave quarters).

Shortly afterward, we were taken to the rear of the plantation where 90 of the 380 slaves who worked the plantation were buried.

At the conclusion of the tour, I asked the docent just how many whites actually lived on the plantation at any given time? He knew where I was going and demurred, he then responded 4 to 8 whites.

In short 386 slaves did all of the work, including construction, planting, harvesting, babysitting, repairing, cooking, milling ..., for America's first President!

Infamous attorney, Jerry Spence, wrote: most black Americans have a totally different perception of George Washington than that of most white Americans. To whites he said, the first President was and still is a hero.

Jerry was correct, as far as I was concerned, and I was not alone, George Washington was nothing more than 'a pimp'! The fact that he was elected President at all, is symptomatic of the problem that persists in this nation until this day!

If you visit Arlington Cemterary you have to be shown where the slaves, who were not permitted (even black veterans) were buried in their remote location!

My comment will likely infuriate plainfacto who in my opinion has a sanitized view of America's torrid historical past. However, what else can you call a man who will not work, and instead pimps other individuals in order to support him and his habit? The Rev calls him a pimp!

Someone got angry with the Rev for saying that (just as they got angry with the Wright Reverend several weeks ago).

In George's defense they argued, that is the way that it was back then. I corrected my critics, reminding them that the majority of the nation's citizens (those men and women of conscience and character), refused to benefit by trafficking and holding other humans in bondage. The man had freedom of choice!

Like most duplicitous individuals in American that serve in modern times, he also rationalized his misbehavior.

I cancelled my plans to visit the other 'pimp daddy's' enclave in Monticello VA! However, he said it right when he looked out on his vast plantation and his hardworking slaves, and utted that God's justice won't sleep forever!

Most black Americans are stilling waiting for justice to happen!

Did you know that most of those white pedophiles, rapists, murderers, land-grabbers, occupationists, adulterers, home wreckers...served in some of the highest offices in this land? Eek!

No wonder our present day George won't stop murdering, occupying, land-grabbing..., and doing everything that he can to satisfy 'his base', there is a 200 year precedent for his misbehavior and lack of conscience!

David Ignatius of the Washington Post asks Ahmadinejad Question about Iran's Nuclear Program:

http://irannegah.com/Video.aspx?id=590

I think Ahmadinejad had a pretty good point there!

==In the second place, the government was founded with an eye toward the support of the Christian faith to keep it effective. George Washington - in his fairwell speech - spoke of the importance of the true Christains present in the new republic to hold the courts to honesty. His own words point that he recognized their presence and realized that they provided a absolute necessary element to create legitimate gov't. This country is a nation that has asked the help of Christians to keep watch over the courts from its very beginning - watching over to keep the laws of the land accountable, fair, and honest. He knew them and fully understood how a grateful nation would fair better with this decision.==

The religousity of the Founding Fathers must be viewed in the context of their time and not from today's politicized lens, where every snake charmer claims Washington for a religous ally.

Most of them were Unitarians, which is in the context of the time would make them very liberal. A large number would be considered raligious radicals today - consider Jefferson's excersise in cutting out the miracles and such out of the bible, to make a simple, effective document of Jesus' teachings out of it. I have heard a serious scholar of the religion of the Founding Fathers offer a strong opinion Jefferson could never be elected President today - we live in much more religously constrained times (paradoxically) then existed at the time of the Revolution.

The idea thet the Founding Fathers were strongly religious in the sense we use today - Bible thumping Fundamentalists - is certainly false. They were first and foremost the children of the Reneaissance and the liberal awakening of science, literature and free-thinking that was sweeping the planet at the time. In addition, they were Masons, which to my mind was probably a credit to their liberalism, again within the context of the time. The early documents, Constitutional debates, and early international treaties all point to a concerted effort on the part of the Founding Fathers to redefine the relationship between the State and Christian Church to be radically different than existed in great majority of European nations toward that of separation and privacy. Which is not to say that most of them were anti-religion - they weren't - but they certainly did not wear it on their sleeves.

Having said that, the relationship many of them had with slavery is very dissapointing. My wife recently read a long book on the subject and came away very disillusioned with Washington, who for most of his life took active measures to keep his slaves and deny them their freedom, though in several specific cases he had ample opportunity to change his mind. Even in his time, slavery was highly controvercial and active anti-slavery sentiment abound.

//1). Good Christians in America murdered Dr. MLK, the champion of civil rights.
2). Good Christians in AmericamMurdered Warner, Chaney and Goodman; all of whom were civil rights workers.
3). Bombing: Just as the American government has been bombing Iraq and more recently Pakistan, good Christian Americans bombed an American Christian Church.

And if that wasn't bad enough, these good Christian churchmen bombed a Christian Church with people inside of it, murdering 4 innocent little girls.\\ -The Rev

You are referring to the KKKK hiding behind the guise of Christianity. That is your mistake. God has appointed a day where everyone will be judged according to their works.

Jesus spoke to a Roman soldier, in which he was amazed at his faith. He said " In all of Israel I have not such a great faith!" Soldiers are under authority and have responsibillities to their commanders and country, and also give orders to subordinates. But that is not why Jesus saved him; he saved him in spite of his station - his faith was seen as righteousness.
"By faith are you saved and by grace - It is a gift of God - not of works lest any man should boast" Eph 2:8-9

//If I must, let me be more succinct. With respect to America's claim of being a Christian nation, nothing could be further from the truth.\\ -The Rev

Rev:

On this, you are factually challenged. A "nation" refers to the people, and not the government. A super majority of Americans still profess their belief in God, and adhere to some form of the Christian faith. Therefore, it is factually correct to call America a Christian nation, even if one dislikes its governmental policies.

In the second place, the government was founded with an eye toward the support of the Christian faith to keep it effective. George Washington - in his fairwell speech - spoke of the importance of the true Christains present in the new republic to hold the courts to honesty. His own words point that he recognized their presence and realized that they provided a absolute necessary element to create legitimate gov't. This country is a nation that has asked the help of Christians to keep watch over the courts from its very beginning - watching over to keep the laws of the land accountable, fair, and honest. He knew them and fully understood how a grateful nation would fair better with this decision.

To say that it is entirteley run by Christians and is entirely Christain has never been correct. Gen Washington was the commander in chief, and he was also a Mason. A Master Mason, I might add.

Masonic fraternal orgaizations, as part of their code, reassure that religion is not a barrier to their membership. They were also essential to the process of nation building in this country - and are still active to achieve this end. To understand these points, is to understand how this nation came into being. Humble, God-fearing Christains have - and still do - contribute a necessary voice that sustains this gov't still.

If Gen. Washington were alive today, he would reaffirm this point and would ask if we had remembered what he asked of its people in his fairwell address. It is one of my favorite speeches that he made.
Hypothetically; how would we answer the General?

Read it here:

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/washing.htm

Comn on Plainfacto,

I have made it clear over and over again that I am not accusing all whites, particularly with respect to white hegemony and supremacy - I know who paid for the March on Washington in 1963.

Having said that, some of who believe that you are not a part of the problem, can be the worst offenders! I have always been consistent my position.

If I must, let me be more succinct. With respect to America's claim of being a Christian nation, nothing could be further from the truth.

With their mouths perhaps, however, and if you compare American policy, and America's history with what Jesus said - who are we kidding! Poverty, racism, hunger..., would either have never existed, or certainly by now - each of them would have been eliminated. And we could erase poverty in this nation by the end of the week - if the good Christian people would do what Jesus did!

I repeat, any one of the aforementioned, could be eliminated, and could have been eliminated in this nation, if it were as you say!

And, let's talk about one other area in memory of Dr. Martin Luther King and all of the other slain civil rights workers from America, not Iraq or Iran, Civil Rights.

From the beginning of this nation until now, America has always purpoted to believe in Civil Rights. And what have Christian Americans done with respect to doing anything other than to talk about Civil Rights - that which they were not forced or embarassing into doing? I will tell you:

1). Good Christians in America murdered Dr. MLK, the champion of civil rights.
2). Good Christians in AmericamMurdered Warner, Chaney and Goodman; all of whom were civil rights workers.
3). Bombing: Just as the American government has been bombing Iraq and more recently Pakistan, good Christian Americans bombed an American Christian Church.

And if that wasn't bad enough, these good Christian churchmen bombed a Christian Church with people inside of it, murdering 4 innocent little girls.

Oops, let me get my Bible out, now what text was that I read when Jesus murdered anyone, or bombed anyone?

If you will recall, on one occasion the disciples wanted to call fire down from heaven, 'their version of hellfire missiles', in order to burn up people, who did not see things the way that they did.

Remind you of the USA? And what did Jesus say? He said, no way Jose!

Peace brother!

//And they call themselves Christians, the same ones who attempt to appropriate and make the MLK message a part of their lore, just as they often do with the message of Jesus Christ! Ha ha ha!\\ -The Rev

And you are duplicitous youraself; as you see only whites doing both right and wrong aand lumping them in the same cetegory. Isn't this called 'discrimination'?
It is.

I hope you do not mean to say the Jesus is to blame for what ALL men may do wrong. Indeed, I do hope that you have not misrepresented YOURSELF. Indeed, YOU have been served!

right on Dimitry,

Too many Americans worship God with their mouths, however, in practice, that is another matter!

Anyone, even my good friend plainfacto, who believes that America's practices, policies and behaviors that are consistent with the canon - well, come on, what a joke?

I spent one of best Christmas seasons a few months ago, with Unitarian Universalist believers in Palo Alto California. What a small world, and they are wonderful white people, not supremacists!

Now how do we get plainfacto to move the rest of the way from the dark side over to the Force!

Plainfacto

From where I am sitting, you were condescending and you did not state the facts. You simply provided us with your perception of the facts. Will you ever acknowledge this fact, that America is a duplicitous nation that frequently says one thing and does another?

Having said that, I do not want to destroy America; I want to make it better. However, can one make a patient better if the patient will never accept treatment?

America, a 232 year old baby nation, would rather pretend that it knows how to cure the ills of other nations, when it has never come face to face with what ails America.

And yes, the problems in the world are social in scope, and not only that, the USA is the precipitator behind many of the world's social problems! The other nations that you wrote about were simply reacting to American hegemony, interference and totalitarianism.

When America stops its misbehaviors, the majority of America's enemies will respond in kind!

When I refer to white supremacy, what I am saying is simply this. The majority of white Americans feel that they are superior to every other race on this planet. And, that includes whites in other countries who won't go along with the American vision of worldwide domination. Just ask Mr. Putin and others about that.

It is not just a black and white issue! Given that American whites believe that they are inherently superior to everyone else on Earth, they also feel that it is their inherent right to govern, exploit, manipulate and tell everyone else and every other nation what to do.

Have you ever heard the phrase, the white man's burden before? That is what I am talking about. White supremacists only want to live in a world where they are in charge.

When Saddam attempted to emulate the behavior of his white friends in America just over a decade and a half ago, both Saddam and his army was rebuffed and run away from Kuwait by the same nation, who subsequently did the same thing to his country, Iraq, nearly a decade and a half later.

Saddam was stunned at the time, believing that all he was doing was what the USA had been doing throughout its history, believing that the USA would look the other way. Boy was he in for a white supremacist surprise! He found out that he was not in the club after all.

As long as he was killing his own brothers in proxy for the USA he was fine in the eyes of America, and he was rewarded for doing so. However, invading Kuwait without permission from the USA was a no no! He should have contacted the folks in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, they would have informed him that before they could assassinate their former President, Patrice Lumumba, that had to get permission first from the United States. The Belgians also had to get an okay from the USA, before the Congolese could assassinate their President!

Action is often predicated on belief, and that is the reason that the heinous and despicable unlawful behaviors of our nation towards other people and nations of the world, is such a common practice! It is to say that my way is the right way.

Other ethnics from around the world believe that they have a right to choose the way that they want to live, and to do so without interference from the United States of America. It is as simple as live and let live!

Again, how can a nuclear nation that is armed to the teeth, tell any other nation that you cannot have any nukes, and if you even pretend to be constructing a nuke - we will blow you to kingdom come?

America hasn't stopped interfering with other nations and people of the world (and lying about it); and it apparently never will. Yes, we give aid to some countries, however, we do so while simultaneously bombing and invading other countries. It is good PR, you know!

Until the USA stops meddling in the internal affairs of other nations and people; and until it stops trying to force its will upon other nations and people; and until it divorces itself from its white supremacist, selfish, power hungry and greedy values - there will always be reactionary violence against the United States.

That the United States frequently refers to other people and nations as terrorists and terrorist nations; those nations and scholarly individuals who are simply reacting to American hegemony, interventionism and interference; is as absurd as Hitler, if he could do so, referring to Russia, Great Britain and the USA as terrorists during WWII. Why? Because they responded to his misbehavior's and invasionist practices?

No one gave Hitler and the Third Reich the right to rule the world, and neither did anyone give the United States the authority or right to rule the world.

Be a patriot plainfacto; I am a patriot myself. However, I will continue to do whatever I can to correct the woeful policies that have persisted in my nation for all too long, just as I would do in my own family, if anyone misbehaved as badly as America has.

Finally, I will also do whatever I can to help to liberate the rest of the people of the world from white supremacy, and the white supremacist murderous policies of my own nation!

And they call themselves Christians, the same ones who attempt to appropriate and make the MLK message a part of their lore, just as they often do with the message of Jesus Christ! Ha ha ha!

Get ready for a change plainfacto, because in a couple of more decades, the white supremacists' fear that the minorities in this nation will be the majority will soon be upon us, and white supremacist policies will be done away with once and for all!

And in case you are wondering, it won't be placed with black or color - supremacist values, it will be replaced with justice for all people regardless of color, including whites!

Perhaps America's Nelson Mandela, Obama, its first black President will help to facilitate those changes before 30 years are up!

You my friend and nemesis have been served!

Plainfacto

From where I am sitting, you were condescending and you did not state the facts. You simply provided us with your perception of the facts. Will you ever acknowledge this fact, that America is a duplicitous nation that frequently says one thing and does another?

Having said that, I do not want to destroy America; I want to make it better. However, can one make a patient better if the patient will never accept treatment?

America, a 232 year old baby nation, would rather pretend that it knows how to cure the ills of other nations, when it has never come face to face with what ails America.

And yes, the problems in the world are social in scope, and not only that, the USA is the precipitator behind many of the world's social problems! The other nations that you wrote about were simply reacting to American hegemony, interference and totalitarianism.

When America stops its misbehaviors, the majority of America's enemies will respond in kind!

When I refer to white supremacy, what I am saying is simply this. The majority of white Americans feel that they are superior to every other race on this planet. And, that includes whites in other countries who won't go along with the American vision of worldwide domination. Just ask Mr. Putin and others about that.

It is not just a black and white issue!
Given that American whites believe that they are inherently superior to everyone else on Earth, they also feel that it is their inherent right to govern, exploit, manipulate and tell everyone else and every other nation what to do.

Have you ever heard the pharase, the white man's burden before? That is what I am talking about. White supremacists only want to live in a world where they are in charge.

When Saddam attempted to emulate the behavior of his white friends in America just over a decade and a half ago, both Saddam and his army was rebuffed and run away from Kuwait by the same nation, who subsequently did the same thing to his country, Iraq, nearly a decade and a half later.

Saddam was stunned at the time, believing that all he was doing was what the USA had been doing throughout its history, believing that the USA would look the other way. Boy was he in for a white supremacist surprise! He found out that he was not in the club after all.

As long as he was killing his own brothers in proxy for the USA he was fine in the eyes of America, and he was rewarded for doing so. However, invading Kuwait without permission from the USA was a no no! He should have contacted the folks in the Democratic Republica of the Congo, they would have informed him that before they could assassiate their former President, Patrice Lumumba, that had to get permission first from the United States. The Belgians also had to get an okay from the USA, before the Congolese could assasinate their President!

Action is often predicated on belief, and that is the reason that the heinous and despicable unlawful behaviors of our nation towards other people and nations of the world, is such a common practice! It is to say that my way is the right way.

Other ethnics from around the world believe that they have a right to choose the way that they want to live, and to do so without interference from the United States of America. It is as simple as live and let live!

Again, how can a nuclear nation that is armed to the teeth, tell any other nation that you cannot have any nukes, and if you even pretend to be constructing a nuke - we will blow you to kingdom come!

America hasn't stopped interfering with other nations and people of the world (and lying about it); and it apparently never will. Yes, we give aid to some countries, however, we do so while simultaneously bombing and invading other countries. It is good PR, you know!

Until the USA stops meddling in the internal affairs of other nations and people; and until it stops trying to force its will upon other nations and people; and until it divorces itself from its white supremacist, selfish, power hungry and greedy values - there will always be reactionary violence against the United States.

That the United States frequently refers to other people and nations as terrorists and terrorist nations; those nations and scholarly individuals who are simply reacting to American hegemony, interventionism and interference; is as absurd as Hitler, if he could do so, referring to Russia, Great Britain and the USA as terrorists during WWII. Why? \
Because they responded to his misbehaviors and invasionist practices.

No one gave Hitler and the Third Reich the right to rule the world, and neither did anyone give the United States the authority or right to rule the world.

Be a patriot plainfacto; I am a patriot myself. However, I will continue to do whatever I can to correct the woeful policies that have persisted in my nation for all too long, just as I would do in my own family, if anyone misbehaved as badly as America has.

Finally, I will also do whatever I can to help to liberate the rest of the people of the world from the white supremacy, and the white supremacist murderous policies of my own nation!

And they call themselves Christians, the same ones who attempt to appropriate and make the MLK message a part of their lore, just as they often do with the message of Jesus Christ! Ha ha ha!

Get ready for a change plainfacto, because in a couple of more decades, the white supremacists' fear that the minorities in this nation will be the majority will soon be upon us, and white supremacist policies will be done away with once and for all!

And in case you are wondering, it won't be placed with black or color - supremacist values, it will be replaced with justice for all people regardless of color, including whites!

Perhaps America's Nelson Mandela, Obama, its first black President will help to facilitate those changes before 30 years are up!

You my friend and nemesis have been served!

==I didn't attack you; do you feel attacked?

Why?==

I suspect Rev got an "issue" 'bout using God's name in vain. It is safe to say that Jesus' name has been used as justification for some things truly incompatible with his teachings. Like the Iraq war, say. Or slavery. Or anti-semitism. All of which many "Christian" churches in America seem, paradoxically, to support, at various points in history. I found it heartening that Unitarians were the earliest to denounce slavery, defended the self-freed slaves of the Amistad in New England and published the Pentagon papers.

There is a famous passage in Bulgakov's "Master and Margarita" (All Russians have read it, I assume you did as well), where Jesus confides to Pontius Pilate that there is this tax collector who follows him around scribing in his book. Jesus says he looked over his shoulder and was horrified to find it to be "lies, all lies".

I was going to write a message about your sudden religion, but erased it instead of posting. I am a Unitarian/Universalist and we tend to tread quietly around these things.

I would assume, however, since you appear to accept the teachings of Jesus now, your job with Blackwater has been put on hold and you plan to support a quick end to the Iraq war?

You are reflecting social issues.

All I have done is stated the facts that all men will be judged by.

I didn't attack you; do you feel attacked?

Why?

It finally hit me last night: The so-called true patriots in America have always been outspoken, just as the rest of us have been - the true patriots of Truth and what was written in America's founding documents.

When the pseudo patriots speak out, like Plainfacto does; they use euphemisms to cloak their dissatisfactions, and to express what they believe are America's real problems.

Euphemisms like handouts, 'big government', immigration...! On the other hand they never speak out about what truly ails America, its systemic and historical ability to say one thing and to do another - duplicity!

Dr. King would have spoken out, I believe, about every nation's right to be free from 'white supremacist domination'. For it is American white supremacy that drives America's domestic and foreign policy.

If America can be armed with nukes..., so can other nations be armed with nukes!

Are all whites a part of the white supremacist movement? Ans. No, of course not. However, some who do not believe that they are a part of it, in fact are members of a white supremacist ideology, and not Christ's ideology, or secularist who believe in the principle of justice.

Those whites ones who do not believe in white supremacy, are often put under incredible pressure to join in with their white supremacists brothers.

If Obama for example becomes the Democratic Representative for President - the white supremacists will quietly go about twisting the arms of their brothers.

They will lay guilt trips on them, use scare tactics, send out their talking points, and explain what will happen if a black takes over the Oval office.

I can recall when Mayor Washington became the first black mayor of Chicago Illinois.

Statements were made from good white Christian racists like the following: And what will be Mayor Washington's first offical act upon becoming mayor? Answer, he will replace all of the elevators in the building with vines.

Now, Plainfacto will comeback with - see the Rev is angry and has issues. The fact is that the Reverend is telling the truth about American white hypocrisy and the voracity of its claims to be just and fair and Christion; and Martin Luther King was equally as outspoken.

Why American racists have tried to appropriate the message of Dr. King and to use it to their advantage.

A lot of white Americans who believe in the truth, side with truth. And the Joe Lieberman's and Zel Miller's of the world keep switching sides, and more and more they are ending up with those who believe in white supremacist values!

Even in the democratic party, 8m voters, who call themselves democrats keep voting for a white supremacist agenda.

plaintfacto - you will never help solve the problem, until you can admit to what really is the problem!

I suspect that neither Jesus, or Dr. King whose name you invoke, would agree with your positions. Having said that, and we've tangled before - you remind me of a lot of nice and well-intentioned people, who nevertheless operate under a white-washed worldview!

Even America's allies aren't buying it anymore, including the majority of the darker-hued French, white English, Germans, Canadians and others.

plainfacto,

To be fair, many Americans both liberal and conservative have concluded that Jesus would have been too liberal for them.

His views on taking care of the poor, greed, sharing, the rich...and human and social justice, are not modern-day American values.

Chrit's ministry had both a spiritual and a social dimension to it!

It is not axiomatic, that if one claims to believe in Christ that a person will adhere to what Jesus taught. Consider the schizophrenic Ku Klux Klan, and other historical and contemporary hate groups in America.

Many invoked in the past, and the majority of them today still invoke the name of the name of Jesus, a Jew, Jewish writ and the cross; yet they hate Jews!

The problem in America, from the onset that has persisted down to today, was and is that many of these individuals who claimed and who claim to be Christians did not and do not adere to the tenets of Christ. Based on some of your writings in the past, you don't either!

Many individuals in America's history, elected officials included; were in nature land-grabbers, greedy, sexist, mysoginist, homewreckers, rapists, child-molesters, drunkards, satan worshipers, avowed racists..., shall I go on? And yet they went to church, read the bible every night and prayed to God(even the satan worshipers)!

You've got to do better than what you have written. The members of those groups, just like many Americans today, hide behind religion, just as their predecessors once did. And today they are behaving in the same behavior!

Americans are still taking over nations, enslaving people, murdering people, forcing their will upon people, breaking up homes (renditions), molesting and raping ...!

If Americans were or ever were true Christians, poverty would have been eliminated, racism, hatred, bigotry, greed, taking over countries and their resources..., all would have been a thing of the past.

You're in denial!

"Human's Nature"
There is no better description of what human nature is -IMHO- than what Jesus described. He pointed out on several occasions that man is in a fallen state, needs a redeemer, and must be born again.

The Book of Revelation describes man's plight to solve all of his problems in a broken and unrepentant state, ending tragically and needlessly destoying themselves; the judgement of God for man's willfullness and rejection of his Son. It is very thing that God has spoken would usher his final judgements. One cannot hope to change a world that will not accept his provisions to escape these unavoidable judgements to come. It has already been seen by John and Daniel the propets and approaches. The only hope that exists is listening to the conviction of sin brought by the Holy Spirit to be born again and inviting Jesus into your heart by your inviting Him to do so.

Politics, science, engineering, medicine, and false gods will never be able to solve the condition that each one of us born with at our time of physical birth. Only by the rebirth can one escape the grip that sin holds on everyone.
"None is righteous; no not one"

Human nature by birth has a spirit that is dead to God. There is no hope apart from what God himself has provided to solve man's many dilemmas.

Whenever I hear people speak about this condition, I feel as though they are asking for the truth and the answer. This is another opportunity to change your mind and believe on Him...

==I agree with you and I believe that in time that my Romanian friends will recognize that their liberators can be as oppressive to other people and nations, as they believe that their oppressors were to them. ==

American political maturity takes time for new immigrants. One has to remember that the American society functions very differently then the ex-Communist societies of their youth did. It is actually difficult to understand the political makeup of American spectrum and calibrate to the fairly narrow width of the mainstream American parties, at least as they exit now. My parents, for example, for many years equated American Democrats with a form of Communism and it took much effort to demonstrate to them that the great majority of American Democrats were, in fact, market capitalists, and in the "old country" would be cleary far to the right of the Communist government. It also took a long time to show that many "law and order" Republican politicians that practiced "America, love it or leave it" identity politics, were, in fact, quite close philosophically to the authoritarian Russian nationalists. This political inversion is very hard to understand for people who grew up with very clear ideological messages and very little ethical/religious/philosophical education (the latter was completely politicized in the Soviet block).

So I would look toward specific differences in upbringing (the broad meaning of the term) and not so much at human nature. Often times "human nature" is a convenient stand-in for less well understood social phenomena, which are "human nature" only in the sense that they are a byproduct of circumstances created by humans over a long stretch of history. Broader treatment of evolution would point to a rather narrower dispersal of variations in human psyche that is popularly beleived.

Whomever's image we were created in, it is the same image.

==One can only ponder what he would be
saving if he were here today, with
regard to an American occupation of
Iraq!==

One is certain that historically informed Dr. King would not be comparing Japan and Iraq, where a violent occupation has outlasted the entire WWII.

He is certain to be forcefully speaking out against this travesty, demanding the end to this illegal occupation and savagery as well a stop to the contunued billions of dollars spent. And he is sure to be villified by the Cheneys, Rumsfelds and Wolfoitzes of this world.

One wonders, if a figure of his statue could serve to galvanize the currently anemic anti-war movement. We can sure use some leadership.

//One can only ponder what he would be
saving if he were here today, with
regard to an American occupation of
Iraq!\\ -The Rev

Or Japan, or Germany, or South Korea.
Gee, he didn't say anything about those - did he?

Where is everybody?

In memory of Dr. Martin Luther King

He fought (without pride) for social justice, and railed against American injustice at home and abroad, particularly the Vietnam War!

One can only ponder what he would be
saving if he were here today, with
regard to an American occupation of
Iraq!

They seem to be supporting Obama in this election. I am really proud of them.

Awesome Dimitry

Human anthropology, social development, human evolution, social anomie, cultural shaping...!

In time, I suspect that my new cohorts will understand that other nations and people have struggled against their oppressors, real or imagined, just as they have done.

As you pointed out, for now they are celebrating their perceived liberation as well as the ones who helped to liberate them. It is only to be expected, as you alluded to, that one would easily overlook the identical oppressive behaviors of ones liberators - as it relates to other people or nations.

The descendants of the American colonists still have not related their experience of fighting against oppression to their counterparts in America, the descendants of the captured people who were forced here against their will!

In fact if you think about it, these Romanian descendants of the Roman Empire, completely overlook the oppresive nature of their ancestors who behaved in the same manner as the citizens of the current Roman Republic, the United States!

I suspect that it would be difficult, egocentric human nature being what it is, to see or admit to the faults of ones liberators, initially. However, if your heart is in the right place and you believe in justice for all, in time - the blinders will come off!

I agree with you and I believe that in time that my Romanian friends will recognize that their liberators can be as oppressive to other people and nations, as they believe that their oppressors were to them.

The students in Afghanistan are a perfect example of how that works. First they fought against the Soviets (Russians) with covert assistance from Ronald Reagan and the United States.

Afterwards, the same students regrouped and went after the other hegemonistic power in the world, the USA - and they are still fighting against American hegemony today!

Anyone can easily recognize the good in America, however, having said that - it does not follow that one should overlook the systemic and resident evil that resides within the USA either!

I'm not so sure that my friend plainfacto understands that the two can co-exist, i.e., that one can recognize the co-existent duality and duplicity within their own nation!

Slavery, racism and class struggle would not have persisted as long as they did, if some Americans were not so self-centered. This group of blind, class conscience and bigoted Americans thought only of themselves and those who were like them.

We need to always point out and fight against the resident evil within our own nation, particularly, before attemtping to stamp out any perceived evil in other nations around the world - particularly when that evil is identical to our own evil!

America did not change because it was good, America was forced to change, particularly when its venal duality was exposed to rest of the world by black Americans!

Chairman Mao and the former worldwide proletariat movement reached out to black America. We could have helped to destroy America, however, we did not. Instead we tried to help save America, and we are still doing that today!

"Dreaming in Cuban"

When I was a boy, I once asked my Mom what language she thought with. She knew six languages when she met my Dad, you see. She looked puzzled for a moment and looked as if she didn't know how to answer me - or even didn't know what to say.

She then said 'I think in French'.
She was born in St Petersburg Russia, prior to the Bolshevic Revolution.

I asked her 'don't you think in Russian - since you were born there and that is the first language that you learned?'

She said 'yes, but since I met you Dad in Turkey I am happiest when I speak French among the Turks - they also like speaking in French to foreigners'.

I pryed; 'Well, why don't you think in English - since you have been here long enough?'

'But you asked me what language I think in; not the one that I feel most comfort with', she explained. She finally said 'Getting used to America is difficult and it has taken all of this time to adjust to it, and I don't know if I will ever really understand how these people think or why they do some of the crazy things that they do.'

My Dad chirped 'That doesn't matter - what other people think - it makes a difference what you think - it is your right as an American citizen. You can think in any language that you want, just make your thoughts clear to everyone in a way that we can all understand and appreciate.'

It takes time to adjust and appreciate what freedoms are, and what it cost. Especially the latter...

==Thankfully, my Romanian friends appear to be educatable.==

The immigrant experience in America for people from ex-communist nations is probably peculiar for it political dimension. The way it typically works is the first generation is staunch Republican, law and order, and at least temporarily harbor racist/sexist prejudices. Psychologically, they are still fighting the previous Communist oppression of their youth and are strongly against anyone who is in any form of political opposition to the right-wing America. Any liberal movement, party or group are typically viewed with hostility and suspicion. The second generation, having been Americanized, lack the political history of their parents, are typically well educated and are by and large liberal. It works like that in Rumanian and Hungarian communitties, as well as in Miami and Brighton Beach. There is a book called "Dreaming in Cuban" (I think), which describes this well from that point of view, which I found to be intimately familiar, though of coarse my experience is Russian. I am an in between generation, having come to the US at 13.

When we ran an anti-Soviet student human rights group in college, no liberal student group would touch us with a ten foot pole, yet older Vietnamese and Cuban refugees would come to our rallies reliably. They were so focused on delivering an anti-Communist message with their home-made posters!

As the time goes on, however, even the older generation begins to see things differently, the old memories and old, now non-existent enemies, fading away, replaced by a deeper understanding of American history, acceptance of reality with all its warts and rising importance of economic issues. For my parents, who have for decades now voted strict Republican, the change came with the war in Iraq, and what they sensed to be a crude propaganda coming from the Bush administration. When recently out at a children's play, they were asked again (it happens very often, because of their accent) "where are you from?", by probably a well meaning, curious woman. Usually they just answer with some resignation that they are originally from the ex-Soviet Union, but now they live in Plymouth. This time, however, they let my wife fire back "they are from New York and they are American!" I thought it was a real change.

They seem to be supporting Obama in this election. I am really proud of them.

Plainfacto the Patriot:

A true American patriot is a lover of his country but rebukes, and does not excuse its sins.

Wm Frederick Douglass

And seeing how you like to quote scriptures: Remember this one: 'Whom the Lord loveth, he chastens!

Or, Righteousness exalts a nation but sin is a reproach to any people.

Finally: Six things doth the Lord hate...
a liar..., one that sheds innocent blood!

Sound like Bush and the USA? The way that problems get fixed is first of all by acknowleding that they exist, not sticking your head in the sand and pretending that all is well!

Good night!

//I will encourage the latinos and chicanos that I know to also stick around - after all, we kind of took the western territory from them didn't we?\\ The Rev

The 'Reconquistas of Aztlan' are sponsored by the Mexican gov't to believe - wrongly - that they are going to re-acquire the SW portion of the US. Some are members of the 'Surrenos' gang that are in this country illegally - as opposed to your Romanian, Russian, and Hungarian friends that did it properly through the system.

These gangs have little or no respect for the laws of California and the US - ergo 'outlaws'. They import drugs, sex slaves, and murder for hire. They are no friends of this gov't - I can stauchly assure you of this. The Los Angeles mayor has sponsored their presence, but I believe the the illegals will be on their way back southward before too long. They are NOT citizens and can claim no rights that American and California citizens are subsidizing.

//I was working with a Russian software engineer who was on assignment in the USA from the Soviet Union in 1989.\\

I too know some Russian immigrants that are quite thankful to be in the US. One is a research biochemist and another is a software engineer. They wouldn't want to be any where else but right here in the US of A!

They believe that the US tolerates and listens to anyone that has something to say - they like their freedom. Just because someone says something, it doesn't mean their views will necessarily be supported - but they have the same/equal chance to be heard - just like you and Dimitry.

Unfortunately, we also have the American Nazi Party here too, but just don't have enough popular support to be of any major concern.

plainfacto,

I anticipated your response, even though Dimitry took the words right out of my mouth. Besides those who are dying to get in, 14 million illegal Spanish immigrants cannot be wrong.

I will encourage the latinos and chicanos that I know to also stick around - after all, we kind of took the western territory from them didn't we? I am also thinking of contacting my Hungarian emigree friends back in Virginia (here for 2 years and that were considered gypsies in Hungary).

I will tell them to have all of their relatives and friends to come on over where they will be welcomed en masse by thankful Americans and ex parte Romanians who wish to share their bounty - then they won't have to steal anymore!

Oh and I need to get a note over to the folks in Iraq as well. I remember you writing in the past that they should also be thankful to the USA for taking their country over. In fact skip that, let's just have everyone over for Thanksgiving in November, Romanians, Iraqis, illegal aliens. And whomever gets here, can stay!

I was working with a Russian software engineer who was on assignment in the USA from the Soviet Union in 1989. He told me that he was stunned after he had been here for 6 months. He said that the people of the Soviet Union were under the impression that Americans were free thinkers!

He found out that they were not! I suppose the gypsies in Romania should be thankful to the Romanians for their largese, the same Romanians who are criticizing the Russians? They're not very thankful, correct?

Thankfully, my Romanian friends appear to be educable. We have been trying to educate Americans for over 200 years now - it is a slow process - with an occasion success here and there!

Oops, let me check, I heard a noise - someone might be getting dragged down the street on the back of a pickup truck - got to go!

//This is the first time God has made a cameo appearance in your posts\\ -Dimitry

Wrong as usual, wrong again. Boy, if you are anything - it is predictably WRONG! Please get some point right in the future, you are getting to be the dumbest, smart person I know!

==But I for one, thank God for whatever I have recieved, and that helps me to remember who I really am.==

A recent convert, then? This is the first time God has made a cameo appearance in your posts, I think. It is fortunate that you have discovered the Lord during the converstion with Rev.

Good luck with loving thy neighbor part. That job with Blackwater or Triple Canopy that you have been invited to, may have to wait...

Sorry Rev; I meant to sign your name to your quote, I put down Dimitry accidentally. My mistake!

//Every person or nation that has their desires fulfilled by America, believes that it is the greatest nation on Earth, that is until they stop getting what they want!\\ -Dimitry

OK. But I for one, thank God for whatever I have recieved, and that helps me to remember who I really am. You know - 'God opposes the proud, but shows favor to the humble' and 'Humble yourself before God, and hwe will exalt you'. Two lessons that are better remembered than forgitten...

==You know the proverb 'pride comes before a fall' - right? ==

--Romanians know that whatever problems we may have in the US is repairable - compared to their country that has less opportunity and hope.--

--The Romanians like this country too much to let hopelessness and predjudice dampen or damage their hopes to be American.--

--Sometimes it is refreshing to hear people from other countries let us know how good we have it here and how much we have beeen blessed.--

--They are grateful to be here too. They know a great opportunity when they see one. --

Indeed. We must be the greatest country because people are dying to get in.

Do not make the terrible mistake of discounting their testimony - they are sincere!

not you too plainfacto,

Oh, I just encouraged them to get in the real world too, and too be less self-centered; for one can be 'sincerely' wrong!

Every person or nation that has their desires fulfilled by America, believes that it is the greatest nation on Earth, that is until they stop getting what they want!

And again, like most people, they are willing to overlook reality or the needs of others, as long as they are getting what they want.

That is the moral that you have overlooked here! With respect to what they may or may not have known about Putin, I remind you of what our allies have been saying about the United States - they believe that what we have done and are doing in Iraq is wrong!

Perhaps your message is being lost on them, perhaps?

Do not make the terrible mistake of discounting their testimony - they are sincere!

not you too plainfacto,

Oh, I just encouraged them to get in the real world too, and too be less self-centered; for one can be 'sincerely' wrong!

Every person or nation that has their desires fulfilled by America, believes that it is the greatest nation on Earth, that is until they stop getting what they want!

And again, like most people, they are willing to overlook reality or the needs of others, as long as they are getting what they want.

That is the moral that you have overlooked here! With respect to what they may or may not have known about Putin, I remind you of what our allies have been saying about the United States - they believe that what we have done and are doing in Iraq is wrong!

Perhaps your message is being lost on them, perhaps?

BTW - you were referring to the Greater San Francisco Bay Area - yes?

Rev, it isn't really an exchange with Dimitry - Dimitry is convinced that he is superior and desires to pontificate. You know the proverb 'pride comes before a fall' - right?

My Russian/Lithuanian Mom used to tell me that Gypsies are universally disliked and distrusted thruout Europe. Similar to how Jews were being treated in the early 20th century. Romanians know that whatever problems we may have in the US is repairable - compared to their country that has less opportunity and hope. The Romanians like this country too much to let hopelessness and predjudice dampen or damage their hopes to be American. Americans can learn from their outlook, yes?

Romanians - like many immigrants - look at the US as a place where their hopes and ambitions can thrive.

You shouild have asked them if they believed that Putin was involved clandestinely against the US in Iraq. You may have been surprised to hear thet they probably think it was possible if not likely!

Most Eastern Europeans dislike Gypsies, they are thieves and robbers - but it would be foolish to say that ALL Gypsies are like that.

//They tried to sell me the customary condescension, i.e., you ought to be glad you're here, because you have no idea...!
Factually, they were clueless and had little respect for people who suffered in this nation, as they claimed to have suffered in their own.\\
Sometimes it is refreshing to hear people from other countries let us know how good we have it here and how much we have beeen blessed. Do not make the terrible mistake of discounting their testimony - they are sincere!

//The Russians that I have been talking meeting with, are just as I suspected - great people. To a person, they were as honest about the wrongs of their government back home, as they were about what was good about the government back home!\\
Russians are mostly like Americans - except with the scars of Communism in their minds. They are grateful to be here too. They know a great opportunity when they see one.

plainfacto,

excuse all of the errors in my last people...I actually ran spellchecker, I must have pasted the wrong entry!

Hey Rev
Bay Area?
Explain - please
plainfacto,

The recent exchanges between you and Dimitry, reminded me of the more pointed portions of my discussions with my new Eastern European friends.

Five of the gentlemen from Romanians, lambasted Russia; and gypsies for that matter. Factually, they were using similar adjectives to refer to gypsies, as some in this country use to refer to black Americans.

The Romanians had nothing but good things to say about the USA, in deference to the fact, as I pointed out, that the USA violated its social contract with many of its own citizens.

When I mentioned that the USA had violated its social contract with American blacks, they wanted to change the subject. Why? America is great because they are getting what they want from America.

And like most people, they view the world through their own prisms - all that matters to most people is how you treat me; they can care less how you treat the next person!

Ironically, it did not matter to some at the table, that the USA happens to be doing to Iraq, what they the Romanians claimed that the Russians were and have been doing to them. Which makes my point again.

People are self-centered, the aren't against wrong, they are simply against being inconvenienced themselves.
If the Soviets had been picking on the Iraqis, it would be okay. However, because Russia was picking on them, it was not okay. And ironically, the Romanians pick on the gypsies.

Somewhat called that a conundrum wrapped up in an enigma. I really didn't mean to include the Bay area in my context!
While engaging in these discussions, I occasionally muse within myself, how can people be so blind?

I asked the Romanians, do you have any sympathy for the individuals in this country who were disenfranchised by the US government, even though America has apparently been so supportive of your country?

They tried to sell me the customary condescension, i.e., you ought to be glad you're here, because you have no idea...!
Factually, they were clueless and had little respect for people who suffered in this nation, as they claimed to have suffered in their own.

There seems to be something in the nature of a man, or in the drinking water perhaps, that often prevents the human mind from bridging the gap beyond what him or her personally!

The Russians that I have been talking meeting with, are just as I suspected - great people. To a person, they were as honest about the wrongs of their government back home, as they were about what was good about the government back home!

Am I making any sense? These people like me and I like them - however, they seem to be just as much flawed as the rest of us happen to be! No wonder we cannot all get along!

Hey Rev
Bay Area?
Explain - please

East is East and West is still West and apprently, 'the twain' are still yet too meet!

For the past 2 months of Sundays, I have spent a considerable period of time with Romanians and Russian immigrants.

Our intense discussions have been open and frank! Having been engaged in these discussions, which even included worshipping 8 times at a Romanian Church in the Bay Area, does not qualify me to be an expert, but I have learned a lot more than I knew before.

International relations are much like time, it all depends on where you are in the universe!

Then it is quite surprising that he voted against prohibition on torture by the CIA in a recent Senate vote, isn't it?

Dimitry

Perhaps Semator Mccain is evolving, since fighting to help stop waterboarding, or perhaps he is up to campaign shennanigans.

Time will tell whether he is guilty of engagin in what the nation is accusing Hillary of doing, misrepresenting the truth!

Then it is quite surprising that he voted against prohibition on torture by the CIA in a recent Senate vote, isn't it?

Dimitry

Perhaps Semator Mccain is evolving, since fighting to help stop waterboarding!

==I am not as old as you have assumed.==

Don't I know it.

I am not as old as you have assumed.
0 for 101!!

Knee jerk-off response? Real fast and always wrong! I can almost set my watch to your inconsistency...

==Oh boy - now we are back to being the poor oppressed communist once again - are we? You were FIVE y/o when you left the USSR - if that.==

13

==Torturer or informant? No, but I have done some work that you will never know about - that's for sure.==

Did it involove your hand?

==You still are 0 for 10! More like 0 for 100; how can anybody be so wrong as you have been?==

Screaming like that only exposes your terrific insecurity. I strongly recommend you drop the VRIO stuff and ask youself, why at a fairly old age, you still don't have a clear idea of right and wrong.

Oh boy - now we are back to being the poor oppressed communist once again - are we? You were FIVE y/o when you left the USSR - if that.

Torturer or informant? No, but I have done some work that you will never know about - that's for sure.

You still are 0 for 10! More like 0 for 100; how can anybody be so wrong as you have been?

==Nobody is affected - unless they are terrorists.==

"When they came for the Communists, I was silent, because I wasn't a Communist"...

Most people know how the rest goes. I guess you don't - that's OK. If you become an informant, or a torturer, you can survive all the way to the end.

//The funny thing - not many people really give a $h1t - hey, I ain't no terroris(t)! -Dimitry

Nobody is affected - unless they are terrorists. Feeling the grip? Krav Maga!

Yet, if one thinks that Hack Yoo is stealing all the accolades as the scoundrel of the day, think again!

Monica Goodling, a mediocre lawyer from a third rate religious law school, who was rocketed to a top spot as a chief counsel to Gonzales at the DOJ, has been hit with another investigation. She has already admitted in Congressional hearings to illegally apply political litmus test during the hiring of career DOJ officials. Now she is being vigorously investigated for apparently firing a talented lawyer because of rumors that she was gay. Someone who was part of the clique at Justice explained - "to some people that is worse than being a Democrat!"

Move over Torture Yoo, the other Monica is giving you the run for your money! "Patriots" every one of 'em!
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http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89288713
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==More claptrap, more empty staements....==

To you, these ideas are certainly claptrap. You are a "show me the 'money'" kind of guy.

Another piece of brilliant legal analysis from the nation's top "patriotic" defender, John Yoo, legal hack extraordinare:

-------------------------------------------
Memo justified warrantless surveillance

Secret Memo That Justified Warrantless Domestic Surveillance Comes to Light

PAMELA HESS and LARA JAKES JORDAN
AP News

Apr 02, 2008 19:20 EST

For at least 16 months after the Sept. 11 terror attacks in 2001, the Bush administration believed that the Constitution's protection against unreasonable searches and seizures on U.S. soil didn't apply to its efforts to protect against terrorism.

That view was expressed in a secret Justice Department legal memo dated Oct. 23, 2001. The administration on Wednesday stressed that it now disavows that view.

The October 2001 memo was written at the request of the White House by John Yoo, then the deputy assistant attorney general, and addressed to Alberto Gonzales, the White House counsel at the time. The administration had asked the department for an opinion on the legality of potential responses to terrorist activity.

The 37-page memo is classified and has not been released. Its existence was disclosed Tuesday in a footnote of a separate secret memo, dated March 14, 2003, released by the Pentagon in response to a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit by the American Civil Liberties Union.

"Our office recently concluded that the Fourth Amendment had no application to domestic military operations," the footnote states, referring to a document titled "Authority for Use of Military Force to Combat Terrorist Activities Within the United States."

Exactly what domestic military action was covered by the October memo is unclear. But federal documents indicate that the memo relates to the National Security Agency's Terrorist Surveillance Program, or TSP.
...
-------------------------------------------

The funny thing - not many people really give a $h1t - hey, I ain't no terroris!

More claptrap, more empty staements....

==You care about everybodies rights - except if they are American.==

The main religion of our Christian nation teaches one to love your neighbor. Wouldn't that imply that we should care about other nations, perhaps even to a slight detriment to our own interests?

In your view, that kind of thinking is the worst kind of "thought-crime" - to dare NOT denigrade other countries in favor or our world-wide hegemony. In other words, the duty of every citizen is to support the STATE above everything else, law, ethics, religion, even family. That, my "patriotic" "friend" is the very definition of totalitarian fascism.

==useless innuendoes==

I don't do the innuendo. I told you exactly what I thought of you any number of times. I guess you didn't like it.

"Claptrap", "Hogwash", and useless innuendoes. Nothing is/has been correct. You are abusive; point your finger at yourself - human rights guru. What a joke! You care about everybodies rights - except if they are American. Most despicable and loathsome...

==No, you don't. You think that you do. If he were still alive, I am quite certain that he would 'pretty near' echo my words - along with some of his own harsher form of rhetoric against your outlook.==

Actually that is my point. Your father's experience has made him supportive of abuse of adversaries. He transfered his viewpoint to you. This is the mechanism by which child abuse stays in the same family over several generations.

==Why don't you come of the clauset and embrace terrorists in the open - that would be honest of you.==

As i said before, your understanding of good and bad are rooted in your own narrow benefit as an individual, with no basis in a larger ethical or religious standard. Most serious modern theologians equate this "state of mind" with what religious people call "evil". We simply have no points of logical connections to advance any meaningfull rational argument on the subject.

==Incdientally, John McCain said on the David Letterman show last night that if he were elected President, he would see to it that torture of POWs will be eliminated, and that GITMO will be shutdown.==

Then it is quite surprising that he voted against prohibition on torture by the CIA in a recent Senate vote, isn't it?

Mr. McCain reputation as a "maverick" is largely undeserved, sustained by careful mythology and an adoring media corp. His voting record, especially on national security is nearly perfectly aligned with the current administration. The good senator has never met a war he didn't like, at least in the last decade or more. Alarmingly, he also seems to fall in with the sides in foreign civil wars from time to time, forcibly arguing that the US should support some side in a far away civil conflict. Several years ago he picked up the cause of the Georgians vs. the North Ossetians, nearly demanding that we should intevene on the behalf of Georgia to prevent North Ossetians from joining Russia.

//No. I feel sorry for your dad.\\ -Dimitry

No, you don't. You think that you do. If he were still alive, I am quite certain that he would 'pretty near' echo my words - along with some of his own harsher form of rhetoric against your outlook. Why don't you come of the clauset and embrace terrorists in the open - that would be honest of you.

Well, I give you credit for forging an argument in the lack of Arkin's input.

The GWOT that finds its way to our own back yard will not be dealt with correctly if we follow what you suggest. Personally, I thought your retort would be along the lines of the legal aspects.

Hayden - despite what the FBI may think - pointed out that the intel gathered has paid benefits to this day. Sooo sorry...

"For there shall be wars, and rumors of wars..." This is the real meter to what is happening, and I am an interested observwer; not a participant. Despite what you may think of me - it has yet to have substance once again...

Did anyone else read Philip G. Zimbardo's book: The Stanford Experiment.

The chapters on what took place in Abu Gharib, GITMO and elsewhere, not to overlook renditions - were priceless. The book also confirms what is written in the piece that Demitry referred us to - is accurate all too many times!

Incdientally, John McCain said on the David Letterman show last night that if he were elected President, he would see to it that torture of POWs will be eliminated, and that GITMO will be shutdown.

He also noted that he will try to mend America's relations with our allies; that the war was mismanged; and that we ought to listen to our allies!

How can anyone not like Senator John Mccain, even if some of his beliefs are skewed? Why it took him so long on MK day, and why he stands in the way of the citizens of DC (600,000 mostly Democratic and black) is a mystery.

John looks like he ought to be a priest, Pope or preacher! And the Rev has a compromise. This is a year of firsts in the Election Cycle. Let's go all the way, and have a Republican and a Democrat for President and Vice President; whoever the last two are that survives!

==So you feel remorse for this country because we tortured the agents involved in the 9/11 attack?==

Shouldn't all civilized men feel remorse when others are tortured in their name?

==Oh, and you want to show them that we are a merciful nation.==

That may be a bit too late to show anyone.

==Who are you trying to appease - terrorists? How much mercy was allotted the victims of the WTC? If we showed the 'torture victims' the same mercy they showed WTC, they would have none at all.==

Not all morality decisions are reactive in nature. The great achievement of human civilization is an establishment of some behavioral standards one is not allowed to breach, independent of circumstances. Religious people subscribe to this view, as are most humanists. It is unfortunate, that many religious people, such as our President, easily slip into the very same moral relitivism they are implored to rise above, every Sunday by their pastors/ministers/rabbis.

==It is my understanding that those who were involved in the 9/11 operation had divulged top-grade intelligence. So says Gen. Hayden - after the fact.==

Most people in this administration adhere to the doctrine of moral relativism mentioned above, and therefore, literally can't be trusted. I would only mention that FBI, nation's best auhtority on this matter, consistently and vocally disagreed with administration policy of coersive interrogations and always maintained that our best options for best and complete information is their program of gaining detainee confidence with straighforward and respectful interrogations. It has been shown, pretty conclusively, that we tortured Zubeida and Mohamed to a point they conffessed to everything, including the murder of Jesus.

==But you are bent in showing how criminal the US is against those whose acts weren't criminal? Twisted sense of justice you have their - Bud.==

It is not me, great defender of the motherland! Just read the writings of the hacks and criminals who run this country today. They are despicable - producing secret "legal opinions" to cover the higher-ups, while setting up low level military lawyers to incriminate themselves in clumsy justifications for torture. Like the Vanity Fair piece says at the end - one day these upper echelon "philosopher kings" will travel to a wrong country.

==Oh - I see - because we are above that kind of thing. You take the side of the 9/11 conspirators, and I will take the side of the US attacked on its own land - and you will lose every time.==

Actually, I will take the side of time and religion honored practice of not torturing your enemies, and you, my savage VRIO "friend", will take the side of the barbarians.

==And get this straight, I don't like torture, and I don't like the US being attacked and mass murder sponsored. You will have a hard time finding sympathy or mercy for these people, no doubt you try to snow us and baffle us with your amazing horse manure.==

You are a bad liar. You do like torture - just witness your immediate defense of it, without facts, without thinking, without consideration. Me good, I torture only bad people. You are essentially devoid of coscience - a moral equivalent of a reactive robot.

==Woo's work won't stand scrutiny, I'll give you that. Even J said it is a sham that was set up to control ignorant minds to the law. But remember this, my Dad wasn't shown any mercy by the Chinese/N.Koreans, this will be the backgrounder to the facts as I see it. And you know this; isn't this the motivation to your tirade? ==

No. I feel sorry for your dad. My messages to this blog are surely not directed at his memory. I only note, that his experience, similarly to the generational proliferation of child abuse, transferred to you a viciosness and readiness to inflict on others what he has experienced. Unfortunately.

==In a war it is useless to prosecute those who are ivolved directly in defending this country. Which you haven't shown any interest for, BTW.==

Why have any laws at all concering war, then? Just torture, maime and exterminate at will. We can certainly just kill Bin Laden by saturation bombing Afghanistan and Pakistan with nuclear weapons. Are there any reasons, other than pragmatic ones, like it may drift over our bases, not to do this?

I would also point out my long-term continuos work in defense of this country that now stretches at least two decades back.

==Doubtless, you will continue to cite those who are involved in the same scam that you are trying to perpetrate; I hope you disappoint your 'handlers'...==

Yes, I will continue to speak against torture and gross violations of human rights. I have done that all my life.

I see you are writing something - instead of picking on bloggers. Your therapy is working.

So you feel remorse for this country because we tortured the agents involved in the 9/11 attack? Oh, and you want to show them that we are a merciful nation. Who are you trying to appease - terrorists? How much mercy was allotted the victims of the WTC? If we showed the 'torture victims' the same mercy they showed WTC, they would have none at all.

It is my understanding that those who were involved in the 9/11 operation had divulged top-grade intelligence. So says Gen. Hayden - after the fact. But you are bent in showing how criminal the US is against those whose acts weren't criminal? Twisted sense of justice you have their - Bud. Oh - I see - because we are above that kind of thing. You take the side of the 9/11 conspirators, and I will take the side of the US attacked on its own land - and you will lose every time. And get this straight, I don't like torture, and I don't like the US being attacked and mass murder sponsored. You will have a hard time finding sympathy or mercy for these people, no doubt you try to snow us and baffle us with your amazing horse manure.

Woo's work won't stand scrutiny, I'll give you that. Even J said it is a sham that was set up to control ignorant minds to the law. But remember this, my Dad wasn't shown any mercy by the Chinese/N.Koreans, this will be the backgrounder to the facts as I see it. And you know this; isn't this the motivation to your tirade?

In a war it is useless to prosecute those who are ivolved directly in defending this country. Which you haven't shown any interest for, BTW. Doubtless, you will continue to cite those who are involved in the same scam that you are trying to perpetrate; I hope you disappoint your 'handlers'...

An exceptional piece in Vanity Fair, on the history of legalization of torture in the Bush administration. A must read:

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http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/05/guantanamo200805?currentPage=1#content
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Your correct Rev. there is something that smells here in the U.S. it's not an unheard few words...!

Duke,

What was the name of that movie? Oh I remember, it was entitled 'Resident Evil'. Senator McCain made a satirical comment a few weeks ago about the 'City of Satan'. He was referring to federal Washington DC.

When this nation was founded, in spite of all of the wonderful platitudes and creeds that were written in its founding documents to the contrary, all of what was written was obviated from the start.

Descendants of black slaves had to create a civil rights movement, and fight for social justice in a nation that purported to believe in liberty and justice for all. The land of the free and the home of the slave has never lived up to its billing!

The very mention of the phrase 'civil rights', causes some to bristle, albeit that was one of the principles that this nation was founded on!

Two hundred and thirty two years after its founding, this nation is still going after 3rd world people and taking their land and resources from them. First it was the native Americans, lately it has been the people of the Middle-East!

America cried foul and intervened in Iraq, when Saddam staked a claim to the House of Kuwait, and the USA turned around and took over Iraq.

Christopher Columbus stumbled upon this continent, looking for trade routes. Greed, hegemony and power are still the driving forces behind American policy and praxis in and around the world!

With respect to resources, America has vast oil reserves that it will not touch. America's policy experts decided long ago, that it is better to use the resources of America's enemies, and preserve America's resources for future wars!

In America, if you try to do the right thing, you may end up pushing up daisies, ala, President Abraham Lincoln, John Brown, MLK, Medgar Evars...!

I smell sulphur!

Your correct Rev. there is something that smells here in the U.S. it's not an unheard few words...!

Duke,

What was the name of that movie? Oh I remember, it was entitled 'Resident Evil'. Senator McCain made a satirical comment a few weeks ago about the 'City of Satan'. He was referring to federal Washington DC.

When this nation was founded, in spite of all of the wonderful platitudes and creeds that were written in its founding documents to the contrary, all of what was written was obviated from the start.

Descendants of black slaves had to create a civil rights movement, and fight for social justice in a nation that purported to believe in liberty and justice for all. The land of the free and the home of the slave has never lived up to its billing!

The very mention of the phrase 'civil rights', causes some to bristle, albeit that was one of the principles that this nation was founded on!

Two hundred and thirty two years after its founding, this nation is still going after 3rd world people and taking their land and resources from them. First it was the native Americans, lately it has been the people of the Middle-East!

America cried foul and intervened in Iraq, when Saddam staked a claim to the House of Kuwait, and the USA turned around and took over Iraq.

Christopher Columbus stumbled upon this continent, looking for trade routes. Greed, hegemony and power are still the driving forces behind American policy and praxis in and around the world!

With respect to resources, America has vast oil reserves that it will not touch. America's policy experts decided long ago, that it is better to use the resources of America's enemies, and preserve America's resources for future wars!

In America, if you try to do the right thing, you may end up pushing up daisies, ala, President Abraham Lincoln, John Brown, MLK, Medgar Evars...!

I smell sulphur too!

That legal hack John Yoo, sure is a special piece of work:
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The memo--which was rescinded just nine months after it was issued--provides an expansive argument for nearly unfettered presidential power in a time of war, contending that numerous laws and treaties that forbid torture or cruel treatment should not apply to the interrogations of enemy combatants overseas. ...
"If a government defendant were to harm an enemy combatant during an interrogation in a manner that might arguably violate a criminal prohibition, he would be doing so in order to prevent further attacks on the United States by the al Qaeda terrorist network," Yoo wrote. "In that case, we believe that he could argue that the executive branch's constitutional authority to protect the nation from attack justified his actions."

Interrogators who harmed a prisoner would be protected by a "national and international version of the right to self-defense," Yoo wrote. He also articulated a definition of illegal conduct in interrogations -- that it must "shock the conscience" -- that the Bush administration advocated for years.

"Whether conduct is conscience-shocking turns in part on whether it is without any justification," Yoo wrote, explaining, for example, that it would have to be inspired by malice or sadism before it could be prosecuted.
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/01/AR2008040102213.html?hpid=topnews
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What is particularly disgusting about these torture legalizing "men", is their childish, immature, fearful inability to actually take their anti-islamic hatred to it full and logical legal conclusion - if the President is above the LAW, he can, upon his discretion or even whim, simply order a summary execution of anyone. They always shy away from that obvious logic - because they know that lawless state apparatus will devour them, second or third in line, regardless of their servility and adoration of the Leader. I always hoped that such people only florished in Nazi Germany and old Soviet Union, but alas, this type is alive and well in Amerika, too.

plainfacto,

I believe the problem in Washington is systemic and too adversarial, just like our system of jursprudence. How many of our Representatives our lawyers? And how about America's 300,000 registered lobbyists.

When well-intentioned individuals are sent to Washington, they go in with backbone and verve. By the time they leave, they have become a part of the Washington establishment, and they have learned what it means to operate in the Washington DC culture.

For example, if you want your earmarks and pork, then you had better vote for mine. In the Executive Branch it is all about the people who voted for me, my base, the devil with the remainder of the nation, gay, straight, minority, opposite party or not.

And my God has the Supreme Court become political or what? Justice Judge Thomas said after the vote passed that checked the President's power a year ago - all that you have done (the fellow justices) is weaken the President's ability to wage war.

He must have thought he was in the voting booth on the second Tuesday in November, not sitting on the Bench. His job was to evaluate the voracity of the Law; no one asked for his personal opinion. I'm sure he learned better than that at Holy Cross and Yale! What, say it louder, YALE?

Having said that, I don't care for his politics, however, I like his style for Senator John McCain, other than his recent capitulations has a backbone. Consider how long it took him to stop blocking the MLK Holiday for the state of Arizona.

He is somewhat malleable it would appear, however, he takes his time (like 100 years) to change!

And I am painfully aware that he nixed the voters rights bill for the voters of Washington DC last year, which #43 promised to veto anyway.

Having said that, you don't always get what you want, however, the people that we send to Washington ought to have a backbone and serve the nation not a base -Senator McCain has been saying that over and over!

Finally, having a backbone differs from being hard-headed, i.e., my mind is made up - don't confuse me with facts!

My advice to Skip would be to vote early, and vote often!

//As one of our late senior Representatives once explained to me on the Hill, things won't change in Washington until the people change Washington!\\ -The Rev

My Dad used to tell me the exact same thing. He said the remedy was to get involved, get informed, and vote. Skip Meadows seems to believe - right or wrong - that there is no such thing as a honest politician beyond the scope of local politicians. May or may not be true. How would you like to get lumped into the same family as Charles Manson? I know my family can't stand Charlie - does that mean that it is still guilt by association?

I can understand Meadows' gripe - but you had better prove an accusation like that before it works. Truth is - it doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

Skip,

I will sound like I'm very naive for saying this, however, it has always bothered me the manner in which voting takes place in our bi-cameral Congress.

The majority leader, the minority leader, the whip, the old pro-tiem..., will go around and tell everyone how to vote, and then blam, every dem votes one way, and every pub another way.

I'm hard on Senator McCain, however, agree with him or not, until recently ala the cave in with the Religious Right, he stood his ground. I spent 6 years in DC myself, and I was involved, I set in, spoke (several times) and partipated in DC politics myself.

The first thing I was told in Washington DC when I arrived was Son, you have to understand that Congress makes rules for everyone else, however, it exempts itself from the rules that it makes for everyone else. I laughed, until I found out that it was true.

The Executive Branch, the Judicial branch et al, leave a lot to be desired. Agree with the 'Wright Reverend Jeremiah' or not - however, you can understand his frustrations at times!

As one of our late senior Representatives once explained to me on the Hill, things won't change in Washington until the people change Washington!

Caribbean slave plantations were "stable" for over a hundred years. Is that the kind of stability that U.S. corporate and government "elites" are seeking in Iraq?

That's what the majority of the Iraqi people currently believe. From www.globalpolicy.org:

"Iraqis oppose plans to open the country's oilfields to foreign investment by a factor of two to one, according to a poll released today. Iraqis are united in this view: there are no ethnic, sectarian or geographical groups that prefer foreign companies. The poll also finds that most Iraqis feel kept in the dark about the oil plans - with fewer than a quarter feeling adequately informed about a proposed new law to govern Iraq's oil sector."

Is this about winning hearts and minds, or about winning control of Iraqi oilfields? All that Petraeus and Cheney would have to do to quell the insurgency is to announce that the U.S. now supports nationalization of Iraqi oil, a strong central government (but with strong state's rights as well, as we have in the U.S.), and new elections in a few months.

That, of course, would mean that no lucrative oil contracts would be had by Chevron and Exxon, tho, wouldn't it?

//...packing a gun and ready to shoot in any direction when spooked..\\ -Dimitry

Goes to prove that you don't know me, although in your pointed little mind - you believe you do. It is humerous to listen to you rant and go nowhere with it...

i AM AN OLD WHITE GUY WHO HUMPED THE BOONIES IN VIET NAM AND I HAVE STILL TO SEE,HEAR OR MEET ANY POLITICIAN THAT CAN BE TRUSTED NO MATTER WHAT PARTY HE CLAIMS.
I DON'T BELIEVE THAT A PERSON CAN BE ELECTED TO ANY POLITICAL OFFICE ABOVE THE COUNTY LEVEL (AND THAT'S UP FOR GRABS) WITHOUT COMPLETELY BEING WITHOUT ANY CORE MORAL PRINCIPALS. THE POLITICAL SYSTEM IN THIS COUNTRY (DEMOCRACY) HAS BEEN CALLED THE SUPREME ART OF COMPROMISE. NICE WORDS BUT IF EVERYTHING IN A MAN'S LIFE IS NEGOTIABLE THEN WHAT DOES HE HAVE OF HIS OWN? A MAN MUST HAVE SOME CORE VALUES THAT ARE NON-NEGOTIABLE OTHERWISE HOW DO WE THINK HE CAN POSSIBLY BE TRUSTED? THE ENTIRE PROCESS IN THE US HAS BECOME CORRUPTED TO THE POINT THAT I AM NOT SURE IT CAN EVER BE FIXED SHORT OF A PROTRACTED AND NASTY "ADJUSTMENT". IN THE SHORT TERM WE HAVE BECOME WHAT WE ALWAYS CLAIMED TO DESPISE. WE ARE NO BETTER THAN NORTH KOREA OR IRAN. WE DO WHAT WE WANT AS DETERMINED BY THE "ELDER STATESMAN" OF THE WEEK AND LET THE REST OF THE WORLD KNOW ON A CONTINUING BASIS THAT WE DON'T CARE WHAT THEY THINK. WE HAVE APPROX 6% OF THE WORLD'S POPULATION IN THE US AND WE CONSUME 40% OF THE WORLD'S RAW MATERIAL OUTPUT. WHY WOULDN'T THE REST OF THE WORLD WANT TO DESTROY US? I KEEP THINKING THAT SOMEDAY WE AS A NATION WILL LEARN TO MIND OUR OWN BUSINESS AND LET EVERYONE ELSE DO THE SAME. AMERICA IS A GREAT PLACE BUT WE HAVE TRIED TO JAM dISNEYLAND AND pLAYBOY MAGAZINE DOWN THE THROATS OF THE REST OF THE WORLD FOREVER. i REMEMBER MY GRAND-MOTHER TELLING ME THAT THE ROAD TO HELL IS PAVED WITH GOOD INTENTIONS. DIDN'T ANY OF THESE WANNBE POLITICOS HAVE A GRAND-MOTHER?

What are US interests in the MidEast?

I'd say:
Stability.
And the oil market open for all customers.
And prevailing Western "soft power".

What do you think US interests are in the MidEast, Mr. Arkin?

==All smoke - and no substance...==

A very excellent retort, from someone who backed Iraq war to find "WMD" and still believes that war was "legal".

You are the very definition of a propagandized American, downtrodden by manufactured fear-mongering and color alerts, fearful of the shadow of every nation, packing a gun and ready to shoot in any direction when spooked.

I am going to have to pick a side in the next election - as you will. Posted by: Plainfacto

Right on, except I really don't pick sides. Ralph Nader is correct, we need to create more Political Parties in this nation.

The two existing parties hold too much sway over the elections process. Democrat or not, look what they did to the citizens of Michigan and Florida. How do you penalize citizens and tell them that they cannot vote? That's unconstitutional!

I thought that I'd seen it all with the Republicans, during the last two elections.

With regards to the topic, no matter who you talk to they want stability in Iraq. Everyone, apparently has his or her own defintion of what it means, a stable Iraq, and what path to take to get there!

Mr. Bush and the Bushtanistas are stabilizing Iraq in the same manner that Saddam and the Baathists were stabilizing Iraq. Those poor souls over there are still caught in the middle. No one ever asks, what do you want!

There are a couple of interesting articles on al-Sadr and the Mahdi Army. The first is by Robert Drefuss called " The Lessons of Basra"in the Nation Magazine, and the second is on aljzeera.net in the Middle East section. We may be backing the wrong horse?

You psych clap-trap about Repubs doesn't buy credibillity with me Dimitry. While I am at it - little of anything that you write sways me to accept your arguements.
All smoke - and no substance...

//Why do you keep defending them if you are a neutral independent voter?\\ -The Rev

I am going to have to pick a side in the next election - as you will. I see that the Repubs are being maligned by liars and BS artists. That doesn't set right with me - I dislike having my leg pissed on. I don't pick a side for reasons of popularity; I pick out of what facts I can gather by myself. In other words - I like to taste my own food. Because I am neutral about party politics, I find my choice to accept the Repubs is far more acceptable to me. That is how I am calling a spade - a spade.

plainfacto,

You don't trust Democrats, then are you saying that you trust Republicans after what they've done to this country over the past 7 years?

The mantra of the Republicans is that when it comes to national security, the Democrats don't do anything, however, we "get 'er done"!

And boy did they get 'er done again, domestically and abroad, just like they did with Watergate and Contragate?

Why do you keep defending them if you are a neutral independent voter? Is it categorical determinism that is at play here? I agree with Dimitry, it destroys your credibility and makes it look like you lack authenticity!

A purist does not take sides - he or she simply calls a spade a spade!

You and others would have excoriated the Democrats if they were to have made the mess that the Republicans did over just the past 7 years!

Have you kept track of how many Republican seats have been lost over the last 15 months, or the number of Republicans that are resigning from Congress?

plainfacto,

You don't trust Democrats, then are you saying that you trust Republicans after what they've done to this country over the past 7 years?

The mantra of the Republicans is that when it comes to national security, the Democrats don't do anything, however, we "get 'er done"!

And boy did they get 'er done again, domestically and abroad, just like they did with Watergate and Contragate?

Why do you keep defending them if you are a neutral independent voter? Is it categorical determinism that is at play here? I agree with Dimitry, it destroys your credibility and makes it look like you lack authenticity!

A purist does not take sides - he or she simply calls a spade a spade!

You and others would have excoriated the Democrats if they were to have made the mess that the Republicans did over just the past 7 years!

Have you kept track of how many Republican seats have been lost over the last 15 months, or the number of Republicans that are resigning from Congress?

plainfacto,

You don't trust Democrats, then are you saying that you trust Republicans after what they've done to this country over the past 7 years?

The mantra of the Republicans is that when it comes to national security, the Democrats don't do anything, however, we "get 'er done"!

And boy did they get er'done again, domestically and abroad and just like Watergate and Contragate. Why do you keep defending them. of you are an independent voter. I agree with Dimitry, it destroys your credibility and makes it look like you lack authenticity!

You would have excoriated the Democrats if they were to have made the mess that the Republicans did over the past 7 years!

Have you kept track of how many Republican seats have been lost over the last 15 months, and the number of Republicans that are resigning in Congress?

If our McCain becomes President,
will he behave like the first Cain and slay his brothers in Arab and Muslim countries, because he doesn't care for their religion?

Having said that, give Senator McCain credit for confessing today that he has misspoken in the past himself (the gaffe last week in Iraq), asking America to get over Hillary's faux pax, as well as 'the Wright Reverend', and let's move on!

Republicans are as much responsible for the Bush debacle as the President is - je gave jos base what it wanted -war! Finally, we know what Krauthammer and Brizenski believe should be done, however, has anyone considered what the Iraqi citizens want themselves! Ah, what do they have to do with this anyway?

This matter is between the American Republicans and the rest of the world!

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/03/31/mlk.fbi.conspiracy/index.html
-------------------------------------------

For those who think if some Patriot Act is good, a lot more is much better! The government is here to protect us.

==I wholeheartedly agree with John McCain, Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton that the Bush administration has royally screwed up Iraq, harmed U.S. standing in the world, and hurt U.S. national security. But the conversation we need to have is about a new ideology that might help guide future U.S. policy in the Middle East and elsewhere.==

I dare say, that you will not find that ellusive "new ideology", Mr. Arkin, if you keep referring to a nation of Iraq as a "thing" that we could "screw up" or "do well".

==-Krauthammer==

He is the biggest, boldest and most indecent liar of all major Republican propagandists. The man is where he is, simply because of the extremely short attention span and derrerential attitude of the typi