Hesburgers, not Hessburgers.

"Trying to talk to him recalled all the clichés about shy, tongue-tied Finns."

Was he shy because he's Finnish? Or shy because some hot-shot washingtonpost reporter speaking English has come thousands of miles for an interview which could be read by millions of people worldwide in a newspaper and online? I'd be shy and tongue-tied too!

- Phil
http://www.finlandforthought.net

Welcome to Oulu, the City of Pizzas and kebabs. Here you can find all pizzaplaces in city: http://www.kaenkky.com/?p=l Unfortunately those pages are in finnish only.

Hessburger is waaaaaaaaay better than McDonalds, dont insultate them with the term "copycat"

Hesburger and McDonald's dont play in the same league. Hesburger is much better than McDonald's.

Phil has a point, you can't expect one (especially a 16 year old kid who probably hasn't studied english for the past year since he's in vocational school) to be prepared to talk about the future of agriculture in English to a couple of reporters from a magazine he's probably never even heard of. However, shyness isn't necessarily a bad thing either so Phil, don't take it as an insult towards the Finns.

As for Mr. Kaiser..excellent journalism, thanks. However, being from Oulu myself, I would've enjoyed reading more about my homecity. Oh well, can't have everything can u?

Aaand for Ricardo..Hesburger is better, I agree. However it IS a copycat, McDonalds was there first. Live with it!:)

"The rural villages are connected by the ubiquitous cell phones, which never seem to be beyond range of a strong signal no matter where you go."

Yup, that may be, but what is so far lacking is good, free wifi coverage. Compared to our southern neighbor, estonia, we are really badly behind when it comes to free ireless broadband. You may want to look into that while in Oulu, since the city does, unlike most other areas in Finland, have a very ambitious wifi strategy http://www.panoulu.net/

Tuija
www.tuija.tv

Yeah Hesburger is definitely much much much better than McDonald's. Especially the hamburgers. If you haven't try them, you are missing a lot.

Well, no. Carrols was here first. ;)
(US chain of the 1960's and 1970's, the case of which like Esso, the name stuck even in the US they closed down the francises.)

Yeah, Hesburger cannot be praised enough. Try the chicken burger meal and ask for lots of mayo. :-)

The mayonnaise in the Hesburger burgers doesn't taste nearly as good as the BicMac sauce.

But the best hamburger ever was the Big Carolina by Carrols. I have not visited a single Hesburger since they bought out Carrols, I just don't like the way Hesburger stuff tastes. I wish BurgerKing were to buy Hesburger and replace all their restaurants with BurgerKings! Or Arby's... or Wendy's. Or better yet: Whataburger!

People believe so blindly all the tales of shy Finns that they're pre-programmed to see shy and not talkative finns where ever they go. Last summer I spotted a group of foreigners walking towards me. Of course me being curious, I tried to spot what nationality they might be. When they passed by, I got something in my eye (it was a very windy day), and because of the sudden sharp pain, I had to turn my head down and do something to my eye. Sure enough, I heard at least half a dozen loud comments behind my back about "typical shy finns who can't even look people into eyes" etc.

I would have taught them a few factoids about cliches, stereotypes, reality and good manners, but my eye was my primary concern at that point.

Is it really so hard to believe that people actually might have some actualy reason why they don't babble all the time, even though they have an extroverted personality? Many people simply like to enjoy silent moments and nature without someone talking all the time, and I personally think it's a lack of something if one must talk
all the time instead of being capable of enjoying silence once in a while.

Hesburger mayonnaise is the best. McDonald's mayo doesn't taste like anything really in my opinion.

The Hesburger burgers and fries are nowhere near as tasty as the McDonal's ones - nor as big...supersize me......

True, I always find myself talking non-stop when I am uneasy with the people or the situation at hand whereas if I am comfortable I do not need to go on and on about meaningless things

Mega-hamburger in Hesburger. You can't find a bigger one in McDonald's... Or tastier either.

The finest article so far, I'd say.

As for the comments once again, I'd find foreigners' various personal experiences of Finland much more interesting than that half of the comments were about hamburger restaurants and mayo in them, or about some other unimportant things... (but I can't stop you)

Correcting the misinformation is usually acceptable, of course...

"The Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland is a state church"

There is no official state church in Finland. We have freedom of religion and the Finnish president doesn't have to ask for God's blessing in every speech either.

Nor does texts like "in god we trust" appear in Euro bills and coins.

Or on old Markka bills and coins either.

Maybe this is nitpicking, but Oulu certainly isn't in Central Finland (around Jyväskylä), but in Northern Finland close to the Lapland.

"We have freedom of religion and the Finnish president doesn't have to ask for God's blessing in every speech either."

George Bush and Co. wouldn't have to do that crap either if it wasn't for the millions of ultra-Christian voters in the U.S. He doesn't do it cause he's religious, he does it to get votes. And he knows that most non-religious people are quite tolerant and don't mind TOO much.

If Finns were all nuts about Christianity as Americans were, you'd hear Tarja Halonen saying "Jumala" every other word as well. Although if Finns were nuts about Christianity, she probably wouldn't be in office in the first place. :-)

- Phil
http://www.finlandforthought.net

It's nice you are in Finland, you write real and mostly positive stories but please,
tell president Bush that he should take
US Army and allies back home from Iraq. Why
are they still there? Have a nice day.

Yes there is an official state church in Finland, actually two; the Evangelic Lutheran as well as the Orthodox. They are the only two that can tax directly their members. Of course there is freedom of religion as well.

The future for Finland seems really grim:
The cultural invasion from Sweden continues and strenghtens.

Problem is, Swedes are not a good model (often things as passed to laws in finland, calling them "swedish model", even the swedes know that it does not work) to follow and worse as leaders. They were rich when there was wars, sold weapons, the country still has a huge weapons industry (compared to size) - they take the easy road; are often not working, they call themselves sick on mondays (drank on friday, still hangover), even on higher positions - not that much working.

Finns are too weak to oppose that. Recently a language law was passed, not only those (as before) who went to uni need to know how to speak swedish and pass an exam to show it, all those working for the large government must now pass such. Most Finns cannot pass the strict test.

Probably the best hope for Finland is that Russia once again becomes mighty and decides to widen its circle of influence. During the Russian invasion, Finland as an autonomous state was more independent than it is now. Not that it was a good place to live by modern standards, but at the time, the Swedish opression was much less than before the liberation from them.

There come the "anti-apartheid" loonies again. Shut the hell up already about your crusade against the "Swedish invasion". There is no such thing, except in your imagination. I suggest you consult a therapist about your compulsion. It's definitely unhealthy.

Hey, I rather have the anti-swedish kooks than the selection of other kooks we could have. But yes, it is getting tedious. Actually most people in Finland don't really give a damn.

They're more interested in finding the gas station selling at 5,49 at a gallon.

Hello, dear fellow finns. I have two suggestions concerning this language debate, for both parties of it. Take me as a neutral negotiator.

1.) Pauli and possible pals, could you please limit your commentaries about swedish this, swedish that to only one discussion thread? Pouring the same arguments to every discussion isn't exactly helping your cause. That way you and those interested in the issue could discuss it in one place, while those trying to talk about something else wouldn't be forced to read it. Surely there are plenty of other interesting things to discuss, too.

2.) Those who oppose Pauli and possible pals, please don't fall in to ad hominem attacks. Calling someone stupid is just pointless. If you want to ridicule him, rather attack his claims and show them false, or something like that. Keeping things civilized should be something to aim for, even if your opponent seems like a bigot from your point of view. The same applies to these "language warriors", please don't call everyone swedes or goverment agents, rather answer to what they say.

In this present form, the language debate is ruining the whole finnish diary, alienating foreign readers, giving a rather horrible picture of Finland and making the people discussing about the language issue seem rather ridicilous. The people at Washington Post must be pretty horrified, too.

Thank you, observer. They alienate also Finnish readers.

Thanks a lot folks, for writing such a positive blog of finland.

we're not all happily married engineers, but still thanks for such an idealistic image of our beloved country

M. Nieminen [FIN]

A couple of comments:

1. Ironically, the music heard in the tango section is not tango at all but a dance called "humppa" (in the States it would be called "polka").

2. When the reporter in above story is discussing the life style and finances of "upper class" Finns, he mentions that the couple in Kuopio "put three kids through college". This would make sense in US where parents carry a heavy financial burden for college costs for their kids, but in Finland it is irrelevant. As reported in the series, higher education in Finland is tuition-free, and, therefore, parents are not financially burdened. For living expenses, the majority of university students take a low interest student loan. (A side note: in my opinion, the U.S. college students' financial dependence on their parents delays their psychological independence.)

Another reason why it is incorrect to say that parents put their kids through college is that the parents have no role in getting their kids in univerisites or colleges. The student has to make the effort to get in by having good grades and passing entrance exams.

The term "upper class" does not fit well in the Finnish mind set. To me, the people in Kuopio are well educated but the word "upper class" would not be used in Finnish language when describing their life style. The egalitarian ideals of Finnish society tend to view most everyone as middle class, as described elsewhere in this series.

Thank you for your latest article Robert and Lucian. I hope the weather won't be as cold and rainy as it is today when you arrive in my hometown Turku.
You should check out the Castle and the Cathedral, both of which I am very proud of.
Although some of the previous comments make it sound like Finland is a very unreligios country, there are still some of us who do believe. God bless the presidents of Finland and the USA!

About religion (which is almost as interesting topic as hamburgers): I don't think that especially younger generations in Finland are very religious at all. Many people seem to belong in Lutheran church only because their parents do too and they join automatically when they are born. They keep being members to be able to get wedding in church, which is for some reson considered important and traditional for many. When I was 14(?) years old, almost all of my classmates went to rippikoulu (first communion in English maybe?), but almost none of them said they believed in god when I asked them.

That's how I see it anyway.

Actually, I don't think the majority of Finnish students take a student loan for their living expenses. They get student money from the state and work during summers or part-time during the school year to pay for them.

I agree with Tatu. Few of my friends believe in God, but they still belong to the church. In fact most of my friends are agnostic or atheist as am I.

I think rippukoulu is more easily understood as "confirmation camp". The two reasons my wife gave for getting my daughter christened were that without it she wouldn't be able to go to this camp and would feel left out and that she couldn't get married in a church. The former gave me pause and I think it's a sad thing if people have to be insincere about what are quite important beliefs just so that they can fit in. The latter seems entirely reasonable.

As regards the article, I would love to know which community in Kuopio has houses selling for a million dollars. A quick look through this weeks real estate paper doesn't have any houses selling for over €500,000 ($650,000). Maybe they mean Rönö, which is a tiny island about a mile from the town square and has about 30 houses on it.

Typically, in the poshest parts of Kuopio, you can get a spacious new five bedroomed home for about $500,000. They only cost more if you want one on the lake.

It's like a historical tick for Finns to assure foreigners that they are "very Lutheran" when hardly anyone actually believes in God or goes to church. I think it's about some very ancient fears.

Hi.

The youth in Finland might not believe in God the way the Lutheran church tells about him or at all, but many teenagers are part of the church's activities. At the the age of 14 or 15 most of the age class goes to a camp for confirmation for christianity. Before the week-long camp there are some lessons troughout the half-a-year season they go trough about god and stuff like that. After the camp they are confirmed in a ritual in the church. After they've been at the camp(rippikoulu)that is usually in the summer and been confirmed, many continue on to become the "big brothers or sisters" for the camps. Not neccessarily because they believe in God. The process of becoming big brothers or sisters for camps develops the groups' team spirit and youngsters get new friends trough the meetings and activities they have with the group. I don't remember what the percentage was, but it was a considerable amount of people from the age class that take part in these things. Just wanted to mention this, because I consider it worth mentioning

I meant to say "rippileiri" not "rippikoulu"

I never took any loans for studying nor did most of my friends.

Oh, and I'm an atheist, like most of my friends. :-)

In reality, many kids go to "rippikoulu" only because after their confirmation they usually receive money and quite expensive gifts from their family and relatives. As an atheist I was never confirmed, but many of my friends (most of them atheists) participated "rippikoulu" just for the cash and other quite valuable gifts from their relatives.

There are also a religion free and rational alternatives to confirmation camps (called Prometheus camps).

Well, I am happy to see most of the language obsessed have left the arena we have finally moved on to something I know plenty about: church and burgers. Well, that's only half true, I know about burgers and let me tell you, mayo has no place in a sandwich! I am not kidding, these Hesburger things are soked in this yellow goo... If I were Canadian, I'd go nuts about them, but... Only thing half-way eatable at 'Hese' is the chicken burger.

I have huge Jesus-fans in my family, not too close mind you, but I've gotten to know enough to avoid the lifestyle. At school in the happy 80's they taught about all kinds of religions but I didn't feel comfortable believing in any of them. Still, I belong to the EV-lut. church, I've figured they do good work and paying them tax is my montly donation to charity.

About the class system in Finland:

Finland is very egalitarian. All children go to the same schools, since there are no private schools. And there is no differance between education standards between low-income areas and more wealthier areas. In small towns everyone goes to the same high school and in cities students can pick their school. This means that everyone has a chance to go to the "better" high schools (i.e. schools with higher requirements). All Finnish universities are considered equal in standards. Even though the Helsinki school of economics might be the most prestigious to students (it has the lowest acceptance rate), graduates from there and e.g. Jyväskylä would be on equal footing when applying for a job.

At university students can afford to live without the support of their parents, although most parents give financial assistance. It is however not in anyway comparable with the investment made by American parents. Money is no barrier to higher education. Education is one of the main indicators of class in Finland, since Finland does not have a large upper class with inherited wealth.

Finnish society can thus be divided into the working class (vocational education), the middle class (including all white collar workers and people with master's degrees) and the very small elite (inherited wealth, have the same education as middle class, have connections to e.g. politics, arts, business)

Asking a Finnish lawyer, doctor and an economist to define their class, they would all say middle. Finns would never define themselves as upper-middle, since the destinction would be seen as boasting. In Finland boasting is a clear faux pas and will not be looked upon with kindness. However this does not extend to tech gadgets, which Finns have a communal love for. The latest cellphones or laptops are openly admired and shown.

Differences between social classes do not touch upon the same general distinctions as in the U.S., such as access to health care, education, proper housing or religion. (see http://www.nytimes.com/indexes/2005/05/29/national/class/index.html
However the uppermiddle class is healthier than the working, because they are aware of health matters and actively seek information. Even though everyone has equal access to education, research shows that education is "inherited", so children of master's graduates will most probably go to univerisity, and workers' children will become workers. Although social mobility is rather painless, since it is achieved through education, e.g. Tarja Halonen, the President, is the daughter of a cleaner single-mother, from a "bad" neighbourhood.

Social class can be determined by what someone knows, since education is very valued in Finland. A poor graduate of philosophy or literature would be considered uppermiddle class even if they occupied a meaningless deskjob not corresponding to their education, this is espesially so if they mixed with other intelligent people. Even though 90% of Finns read quality broadsheets, the lowerclasses seem to be less ready to discuss politics, literature or films analytically, since analytical thinking is a skill developed in university. However being intelligent is not enough to raise your class, one needs "verification" i.e. having studied at university. So a clever plummer would not considered uppermiddle.

"expects a pension worth about 80 percent of his salary, adjusted over the years for inflation."

It's more likely to be about 50 percent or less. Most people expect their pensions to be much more than they actually are.

Timo A,

You do realize that a lot of your money goes into maintaining the church bureaucracy, etc. and that people like you make up the statistics showing most Finns as Lutherans, which are used as a lobbying tool by the church?

http://www.eroakirkosta.fi/

Donating directly to the charity of your choice is light years better than being a member of the state church for the purpose of charity.

If you compare the class system in the UK with that in Finland, it's not the same ballpark. I appreciate the distinctions Inkari makes but in the UK for example, the reason working class people don't socialise much with middle class people is because of a difference not just in education or income but in values, speech, clothing, neighbourhood and so on.

In Finland speech says nothing about you except where you're from. Similarly, people don't seem to dress according to class either (it's shiny tracksuits for all!!).

Comparitively, class is fairly invisible in Finland compared to the UK and is certainly no barrier to advancement. Even in the US, which is known to be classless, there is not perfect equality of opportunity because people who are smart enough to go to an Ivy League university but not smart enough to get a scholarship, lose out to those that do.

Just to correct something someone else wrote. There are actually TWO state churches in Finland, the lutheran and the orthodox church. However, there is religious freedom and only church members pay church tax. (I believe some companies also pay this, but I'm not sure...)
Hope you will cover the orthodox church in some way...

As a life-long Helsinkiate I must add to the thread, that speech - for one - definitely sets Ffinns apart. Not just regionally, but socio-economically as well. These differences dictate the manner in which the person in question is treated in - let's say - a restaurant, bank or in any social situation as it does everywhere else in the world. Of course, Finns do not have to live in fensed communities to keep the riff raff out, but people from different backgrounds do definitely not mingle. On paper Finland may seem like an egalitarian haven, but in reality it sure enough has differences between groups of people - although perhaps more intricate ones than in good ole' US of A. For instance, there is a "wrong side of the tracks" even in our glorified welfare state capital Helsinki, which houses the majority of the unemployed, uneducated and the uncultivated sort. This are is generally referred to as East Helsinki. Personally, it takes me around a second to decipher whether someone is from East or West Helsinki from the first words that he/she may utter. Finnish language hides many indicators of this socioeconomic position. This naturally escapes the occasional tourist, but to the trained eye, these indicators are obvious. Choice of words, intonation, genaral behaviour and stance -just to name a few. Along with separatist sentiments, as a homogenous nation Finland has also definite symptoms of racism towards, well... all minorities. As a local curiosity Finns are also prone to agism, a sense that old people are useless. This is the underbelly of Finland, which is a sad reality here as it is everywhere else. I doubt that our two congenial compatriots will stray from "the yellow brick road" to find these elements, but believe you me, it's there. Let's say that Finns have a strong policy of "we hate everyone, but equally".

Commenting on the idea that Finns are shy..This is absolutely true. I have had many business dealings with Finnish Firms over the past years.
It is a Challenge..no returned letters, e-mails or phone calls. We have even resorted to the help of the Finnish Embassy.
If the Fiins would take some Salesmanship Lessons perhaps the unemployment rate would drop to 5% !
PS..I am an American Finn so I understand where this is a problem..some Finns talk and others do not.

"It is a Challenge..no returned letters, e-mails or phone calls. We have even resorted to the help of the Finnish Embassy."

That I cannot believe. Are you sure you sent your letters to Finland and not Philippines? You wouldn't believe how many letters I've gotten from the US, months late and stamped "MISSED TO MANILA, PHILIPPINES"... :-)

"Personally, it takes me around a second to decipher whether someone is from East or West Helsinki from the first words that he/she may utter."

You're telling us obvious basic things that are clear without saying, everywhere in the world. Now if you compare the situation in Nordic states to other countries, the difference between "classes" shrinks to almost zero.

Could picture myself to believe in God. But the same time be against the church as an institution. However Lutheran church being as neutral and colorless as it is (and supposed to be?), specially in here, it really doesn't make much difference, except for that wedding etc. things.

"If the Fiins would take some Salesmanship Lessons perhaps the unemployment rate would drop to 5% !"

As it was already noted in some other thread, the employment and unemployment figures are calculated differently in the US and Finland. E.g., release your (one of the biggest in the world) prison population and see what happens to the employment percentage. Everyone in Finland is counted.

To: Lester Burnham

Yes well, still think the treatment you get doesn't differ that much. I myself sometimes like to play around with such things, specially when moving to new places, which I like to do also. Behaving, talking, dressing etc. differently than you really are and then changing to the opposite one day.

In practice it keeps those shallow minded people, who don't value others as a person away, as well all kinda wannabe this and that fakes. Who I try to avoid in long term relations. Not to mention, it's quite fun and refreshing.

Guess the difference is much bigger in Finns' minds than in visible things.

"Let's say that Finns have a strong policy of "we hate everyone, but equally"."

Could be true too. But I doubt that many do really hate anyone. Rather just don't bother to disagree in matters that doesn't directly concern them in groups of people where the major opinion is, or assumed to be "we do hate" this and that. Which is easier than to put yourself in the line of fire, which disagreeing in such group would most likely cause, in a matter that you don't frankly care at all.

Ummm ... maybe I should just shut up. :)

While most Finns probably avoid contact/friendship with immigrants and people of color, I and some friends (and 100 000 other people) recently attended the World Village Festival in Helsinki, http://www.maailmakylassa.fi/english, an excellent opportunity to get to know the cultures of ethnic minorities in Finland. I hope the Washington Post journalists have time to get to know multicultural Finland, too.

Oh man! everything is so subjective! for excample now Finland in expencive to the Americans. See. Now the dollar is some 1,25 against one euro. Just a few years ago it was the other way aroud: you got an euro with 80 cents. Please, read this article with this in mind. The logic is the same in many details.

What i'd like to say to the people all over the world - as i've seen places abroad - THINGS WORK HERE IN FINLAND. Again: not always....;)

"While most Finns probably avoid contact/friendship with immigrants and people of color"

I don't know any Finns who avoid contact and friendship with foreigners. And obviously the american couple in Virtual Finland's article doesn't either:

http://virtual.finland.fi/netcomm/news/showarticle.asp?intNWSAID=36458

Kuopiolainen got in first, (un)fortunately:

"As regards the article, I would love to know which community in Kuopio has houses selling for a million dollars. A quick look through this week's real estate paper doesn't have any houses selling for over €500,000 ($650,000). Maybe they mean Rönö, which is a tiny island about a mile from the town square and has about 30 houses on it.

Typically, in the poshest parts of Kuopio, you can get a spacious new five bedroomed home for about $500,000. They only cost more if you want one on the lake."

Spot on, even a bit over the top in the generosity department, I'd say. A quick search of Oikotie, the online real estate service on Helsingin Sanomat's website, indicates that the most expensive piece of property currently listed for sale in the Kuopio area is running at EUR 440,000, and in order to get anywhere near seven figures in dollars, you would almost certainly need to be buying a VERY LARGE house close to Helsinki. Or a small apartment IN Helsinki, of course. :)

Naturally, the predominantly domestic audience for this blog will - starved of anything else by way of information - happily take as gospel the statement that Kuopio - a relatively small provincial town in a region suffering internal population loss and where real estate is cheap by southern standards - has telephone-number-sized property prices.

Caveat lector. A little learning IS a dangerous thing.

And caveat lector on the miracle of the wired rural Finns who were the darlings of the media some years back - many HAD to go online when their local services (banks, post offices, insurance offices, etc.) were closed down in the wake of the recession of the early 90s.

This article from 2001 shows another side of the coin.

http://www2.helsinginsanomat.fi/english/archive/news.asp?id=20010213IE9

"I don't know any Finns who avoid contact and friendship with foreigners. And obviously the american couple in Virtual Finland's article doesn't either:
http://virtual.finland.fi/netcomm/news/showarticle.asp?intNWSAID=36458"

Yeah, that couple is white.

" All children go to the same schools, since there are no private schools."

Err??

"All Finnish universities are considered equal in standards."

Not quite.

Finns avoiding contact with foreigners? I avoid contact with everybody in my building! And there are people from Bangladesh, Iraq, Russia, mostly Finnish though. On the subway I concentrate in reading my newspaper and it's no trouble at all to avoid any contact with anybody. I don't talk to them and the only one wanting to talk to me is the token drunk who needs to be on the train to break the silence. It's not easy for me to start a conversation with strangers but I am most willing to talk about anything if talked to. I'd imagine this is very common Finnish trade.

I was born in the U.S., but am 3/4 Finnish and 1/4 Swedish (Dad born in Finland, Mother born in Sweden, but _her_ Mother was born in Finland). I've had the good fortune to be able to travel pretty far
and wide in Finland, even though I speak
very little Finnish - and observe the
huge progress that "plucky" Finland
(as the National Geographic called
Finland many years ago) over the past
30 or 40 years.

As some contributors might tell from my
name, many of my relatives in Finland
speak Swedish at home, though all of
them also speak Finnish.

Like many others in the U.S. with
Finnish roots, I am intensely proud
of Finland.

I consider most of the stories from
the _Post_ reporters to have
been reasonably accurate, and paint a
fair picture of Finland and her
citizens.

A few comments to relate back to the "natural" readers of the Washington
Post.

> Hey, I rather have the anti-swedish
> kooks than the selection of other
> kooks we could have. But yes, it
> is getting tedious. Actually most
> people in Finland don't really give
> a damn.

I believe that's correct.

> As a life-long Helsinkiate I must add
> to the thread, that speech - for
> one - definitely sets Ffinns apart.
> Not just regionally, but
> socio-economically as well.
> These differences dictate the manner
> in which the person in question
> is treated in - let's say - a
> restaurant, bank or in any
> social situation as it does
> everywhere else in the world.

I've not particularly observed that
in Finland.

> Of course, Finns do not have to live
> in fensed communities to keep the
> riff raff out, but people from
> different backgrounds do definitely
> not mingle. On paper Finland may
> seem like an egalitarian haven, but
> in reality it sure enough has
> differences between groups of
> people - although perhaps more
> intricate ones than in good ole'
> US of A. For instance, there is a
> "wrong side of the tracks" even in
> our glorified welfare state
> capital Helsinki, which houses
> the majority of the unemployed,
> uneducated and the uncultivated
> sort. This are is generally referred
> to as East Helsinki. Personally, it
> takes me around a second to decipher
> whether someone is from East or
> West Helsinki from the first words
> that he/she may utter. Finnish
> language hides many indicators of
> this socioeconomic position.

I've often regarded the municipality of Espoo (a large suburban jurisdiction
west of Helsinki) as (in many ways)
similar to Fairfax County, Virginia,
located to the west of Washington,
D.C.

Though there are pretty good highway
and transit connections from east to
west (including two circumferential highways, Ring I and Ring III (only a
short segment of Ring II is open
to traffic)), so persons living in the
east _do_ have access to employment opportunities in the west.

It might be worth mentioning that many
of the eastern "suburbs" of Helsinki
are actually within the corporate
limits of Helsinki, while the western
suburbs are independent of the
capital (in terms of what residents
of the U.S. would call "local
government").

> This naturally escapes the occasional
> tourist, but to the trained eye,
> these indicators are obvious. Choice
> of words, intonation, genaral
> behaviour and stance -just to name a
> few. Along with separatist sentiments,
> as a homogenous nation Finland has
> also definite symptoms of racism
> towards, well... all minorities.

Unfortunately, Finland is not unique
in this - and I am of the opinion that racism has damaged the social fabric
of the U.S. _much_ more than Finland.
Most citizens of both nations are
_not_ racist.

> As a local curiosity Finns are also
> prone to agism, a sense that old
> people are useless. This is
> the underbelly of Finland, which is
> a sad reality here as it is
> everywhere else. I doubt that our
> two congenial compatriots will
> stray from "the yellow brick road"
> to find these elements, but believe
> you me, it's there.

I've _not_ observed this.

> Let's say that Finns have a strong
> policy of "we hate everyone,
> but equally".

When I was in Finland in 2000, I had
an opportunity to see and observe some
of the suburban apartment complexes
where refugees from Somalia had
been settled. Two observations:

(1) The persons from Somalia (who don't
look much like native-born Finns) were
healthy, and they appeared to be living
in clean, well-maintained dwelling units.

(2) More than once, I saw Somali children
riding on public transit and they were speaking (what sounded to me like)
Finnish with (apparently) native Finnish
children.

> I don't know any Finns who avoid
> contact and friendship with foreigners.

Nor I.

"all the clichés about shy, tongue-tied Finns"; right!

-There's a joke about the silent Finns that tells it all.
Once upon a time there were two policemen patrolling on Kuopio market square (which you've seen!). One of the cops is senior constable, the other a novice.
A foreign family on tour sees the policemen and approaches. They want to get to the Puijo tower, so they are asking for advice to find the right bus. First in English, but no reply. In French? -a shake of head. In German? -nope. The father of the family is getting desperate, trying yet Spanish and, finally, Latin. - No answer from the policemen, that are seemingly getting a bit nervous. So the family has to walk away, empty-handed.

The senior policeman then turns to the younger colleague and utters (in Finnish, for sure): "Now what have I told you time and time again? Studying languages is such a waste of time! This man could speak at least five different languages, but what good did it do to him?"

Finns obeying the 100km/h speedlimit? Especially on an empty road in the middle of nowhere? Either times have changed dramatically or Washington Post team had a bit of a hard time judging whether the Finns do obey the speedlimit since they only saw two other cars on their way, both with drivers wearing hats? Me, I'd vote for the latter ;-) Most Finns tend to drive fast, very fast.

To ottoville:

"As reported in the series, higher education in Finland is tuition-free, and, therefore, parents are not financially burdened. For living expenses, the majority of university students take a low interest student loan. (A side note: in my opinion, the U.S. college students' financial dependence on their parents delays their psychological independence.)

Another reason why it is incorrect to say that parents put their kids through college is that the parents have no role in getting their kids in univerisites or colleges. The student has to make the effort to get in by having good grades and passing entrance exams. "

As commented earlier, actually the most of the students here in Finland try to manage without the loan, if possible. Especially in univerties. People of age 20 to 25 remember well the last depression and bank crisis and have no illusions about their future and employment. They trust to the future but are not willing to risk it by living with loan. Students, like myself, prefer to work part-time when studying.

For this same reason there is some financial burden to the parents also. Although there are no tuition-fees, there are different material costs like books and other things which can be quite expensive. Living is not cheap either in the bigger cities like Tampere, Oulu and Helsinki. And during the first years of ones studies it can be difficult and stressing to find suitable part-time jobs. Support from the parents may not be directly money (I and many of my friends would not even take direct monetary support from parents), but some household items etc. Nevertheless, this still increases the financial load of the parents.

I think that it is also wrong to say that parents have no role in their children's studies. The emotional and educational support from the parents and the stable environment at home is very important in order to get the good grades that are needed to get into the universities.

Of course there is a slight 'class difference' in the speech. But I'd say it varies from one part of the country to another. So the "upper class" from somewhere will be a "country hillbilly" going to another place. It seem youth culture is ubiquitous, but theres also interesting local differences. Of course there is animosity sometimes, but its very undercurrent, some places there still may be a division between vocational/high school students; but unlike in my time these days you can actually do a double degree and get bot a profession as well as a white cap. Something I envy I had the chances for when I was 16.

Christine said:
>> Yeah, that couple is white

What does it have to do with anything? I think people should be assessed by their nature and not their skin color.

If a person is a genius, they can be any nationality, creed or color they want; it still makes them no less a genius. On the flipside, if a person is a stupid git, they can be any nationality, creed or color they want; it still makes them no less a stupid git.

This is very strange; a bunch of Finns discussing Finland in English, on a Washpost website. Please, you Finns, you weirdos, get a life...

Someone said that most citizens of Finland are not racist. As a Finn I would disagree with this. Many Finns are distinctly racist but don't realise it.

Weather it is looking down upon on Russians, Somali's or Roma (Gypsies). Or opposing refugees, asylym seekers or immigration (Finlands numbers in these regards are very very poor compared to her neighbours. disgraceful imho).

As I said, its racism. Finns just don't see it as that and don't realise it as being that. Most likely because Finns are from a nation with an ethnic make-up of everyone being the same, thus all the fear of foreigners, other religions or refugees isn't equated to being racism while in the true, real world meaning of the term it is exactly that.

Someone else claimed that Finland counts all of its unemployed in its numbers. This too is untrue. OECD numbers and MOL numbers for Finland differ by about 8% as the MOL numbers hide a myriad of unemoployed people because of the way they count them.

I'll bet a $100 that if unemployed, you can find a job in the US far faster than you can in Finland. This is because the unemployment differences reported (5% vs 10%) is roughly the same difference even when all the uncounted people get thrown into the equation.

For example, a student taking a "break" year who can't find a job. Will not be counted as unemployed but as a student, and as such will not receive unemployment money or appear on the unemployment statistics.

The primary way in which unemployment was "cut" in Finland in the last 10 years, was by making it harder to be unemployed. Making yourself appear on the statistics is a fight against bureacratic red-tape by hopelessly overworked bureacrats and politicians who want to beautify the numbers and claim success in the fight against unemployment.

To get to a similar level as the US numbers, we'd need drastic and wholescale economic changes as well as legislative ones to make it easier to accumulate wealth in terms of buying power. A middle class US family will have more DVD's, home theathers and cars than your average Finnish medium class family have.

There come the "anti-apartheid" loonies again. Shut the hell up already about your crusade against the "Swedish invasion". There is no such thing, except in your imagination. I suggest you consult a therapist about your compulsion. It's definitely unhealthy.
------
Please use your own, Swedish name.
BTW, did you ever wonder why, when the Soviet Union was still around, there was lots of talk about KGB. Yet is not Russian we all have to be able to take orders with. If there was so much KGB around, wouldn't we all have had to study Russian ? Massive corruption among the politicians means, for example, state sold Sonera for less price than it was worth - and that there used to talk about KGB - when all had to start to study Swedish. Not Russian.

About speed limits!

There is one simple way to make finns to obey speed limits and traffic regulations.

If we violate traffic rules, we have abou the violation in progressive manner.

Higher income you have, more you pay and there is no limit.

Formula driver Kimi Räikkönen did some minor traffic violation and he had to pay over 30.000 euros fine.

I felt strongly about setting the record straight on this hamburger issue. Eventhough I am not fond of their products all that much, Hesburger is more than just another copycat. They have 200 restaurants in Finland, Germany, Latvia and Syria.

(About the swedish language etc.)

Actually most
> people in Finland don't really give
> a damn.

I believe that's correct
----
Yes they give a damn. Nobody likes the forced Swedish which also results in unwanted cultural practises being brought over.
Countless of students have had to quit school as they did not learn enough Swedish.

"Formula driver Kimi Räikkönen did some minor traffic violation and he had to pay over 30.000 euros fine."

Then again, with his incomes, 30.000 is nothing. He probably spends twice that much during one night out. And of course the same with thing with everyone, depending on his or her income.

"This too is untrue. OECD numbers and MOL numbers for Finland differ by about 8% as the MOL numbers hide a myriad of unemoployed people because of the way they count them."

Or then the OECD doesn't use a meaningful counting. Just like big-shot EU people believe that Finland has a huge number of vast fields, when they see frozen lakes in winter.

Farmers that earn 80 000 dollars a month are a big exception. Some families might do that but I guess the costs haven't beeen into account.

Some hints: http://www.stat.fi/index_en.html

All Finnish universities are considered equal in standards.
--
No, they are not. Getting the first job from the wrong university will be harder than from the right. After getting the first job, however, it does not matter at all where you studied.

literature or films analytically, since analytical thinking is a skill developed in university.
--
I would say, killed by university. All books must be memorized, not discussed.

there are different material costs like books and other things which can be quite expensive. Living is not cheap either in the bigger cities like Tampere, Oulu and Helsinki
--
If they wanted, they could easily make it a lot more equal in terms of money: just make sure everybody gets their student allowance on time when school starts (some do not start to study as they do not) and give all the beginning students who want one, a place in student housing (now you have to queue = rent from private sector, a room goes for 200-250 euros with 1-2 months downpayment, a studio 300-400 euros, whereas the student housing can be considerably cheaper)

there is a "wrong side of the tracks" even in our glorified welfare state capital Helsinki
--
In Helsinki the divide is much less than in rest of the country. Even if you are from Jakomäki (situated in east) you can still get a job in Helsinki.
Elsewhere, to get (at least some) jobs, you also need a better address (and usually contacts through your friends and family to the employers)

Or opposing refugees, asylym seekers or immigration (Finlands numbers in these regards are very very poor compared to her neighbours. disgraceful imho
--
Germany has lots of foreigners. It enhances their culture and as they lost WW II they were told to start to like foreigners and be peaceful, as they used to be. Finns do not oppose "white" immigration, whites could (are sometimes) actually be preferred by employers, whereas colored people could have a hard time finding jobs in Finland, even with education. State however opposes "white" immigration for reasons Finns do not understand.

"No, they are not. Getting the first job from the wrong university will be harder than from the right. After getting the first job, however, it does not matter at all where you studied."

"I would say, killed by university. All books must be memorized, not discussed."

Obviously you have studied in that "wrong" university (which one might it be?) if all you did is memorizing books. And of course, universities are not day care centers, students must also take responsibilities themselves. If you didn't bother doing anything else than memorizing books, you can only blame yourself. My experiences are just the opposite.

"colored people could have a hard time finding jobs in Finland, even with education."

I know several cases when an educated Finn (or Swede) with work experience was hired and not a colored applicant without qualification. After which the colored person threatened to spread racism claims about the company. I can understand why some companies might be a bit suspicious after cases like that.

Never forget that also colored people can be racists. About a month ago there was an hour long documentary about two black rap artists living in Finland. They were complete racists towards Finland/Nordic countries and white people. They called Finns racists simply because, for example, the music taste is different in Finland than in their home country. They never gave any example of real racism towards them, they talked only about normal every day cultural differences, and practically everything Nordics did was "racism" to them. I actually started waiting when they're going to say that Finns are racists because Finland has lots of lakes or snow, unlike their native country.

Peace on Earth wrote:

"It's nice you are in Finland, you write real and mostly positive stories but please, tell president Bush that he should take US Army and allies back home from Iraq."

I think in the Washington Post they are doing that every day.

"This is very strange; a bunch of Finns discussing Finland in English, on a Washpost website. Please, you Finns, you weirdos, get a life..."

The whole point of this blog is getting Finns here discussing Finland. I recommend you to get a life, but not before you've gotten an education and learnt to read and understand what you've read.

"" All children go to the same schools, since there are no private schools."

Err??

"All Finnish universities are considered equal in standards."

Not quite."

Here we go again, Phil trying to push american definitons to Nordic states. I'm sure you can find a school or two in Finland that are somehow "private" and not "public", but you certainly can't find elitistic boarding schools with student wearing suits and ties, thinking they're are the elite. They're mostly folk institute type of schools offering short courses, usually in practical matters. And what comes to differences between universities. Compare the Finnish situation to other countries, and again, the difference shrinks to zero.

"I don't know any Finns who avoid contact and friendship with foreigners. And obviously the american couple in Virtual Finland's article doesn't either:"

"Yeah, that couple is white."

Most Finns I know are far more critical towards americans than towards colored people. In cities and towns with foreigners and refugees, it's actually a very common sight to see immigrant or refugee kids playing with Finnish kids. One of my best friends in elementary school was from middle east, and he certainly wasn't white.

Oulu is NOT the third-largest city! Get your facts straight, it is Manse. ;)

Just to let you know that Finland does not (and has never had nor will have) a STATE church like Sweden used to and Norway and England still have. Finland has 2 NATIONAL churches...there is a huge difference between NATIONAL and STATE churches! Like our president is not the head of the church! But the state and the church are not completely separated either...it is a wonderful connection...liberating but stimulating. We'll keep it! :)
All the best for you guys trying to find out what Finland really is in a few weeks. For most of us it takes a lifetime to discover it! ;)
But it sure helps to live in your country for a few years to see Finland's true beauty. I had to choose between becoming a feminist in the USA (being a young female professor in the States for few years does it for you) or returning back home to feel free. Quite an easy decision.
Blessings to you all!
Dr HappyFinn

Just to make it clear,here are the 6 biggest cities in Finland

1. Helsinki
2.Espoo
3.Tampere
4.Vantaa
5.Turku
6. Oulu

Oh and by the way, there's no need to start talking about the war in Iraq here. It's an important subject and sure it's interesting to hear what people have to say about it, but please do it elsewhere. Except if you can provide a "finnish" point of view, not just a "Bush sucks, I don't know why, but everyone seems to think like that,it must be right"-one. Im against the war too, yes sure, but still, there are hundreds of sites where you can discuss it, let's not make this one of them. Otherwise, interesting conversation. Have a nice day peeps :)

I think the bigger problem is the 10% unemployment than immigration, or the lack of it. An immigrant to the USA will find a job straight off the airplane. And an immigrant to Finland, staright off the plane, will face approximately 8 months of unemployment, even if they are "white" - Say for an engineer finding employment has nothing to do with skin color as it is with what you can do and which niche you fit in.

Why would anyone immigrate here if they do not have jobs? What is the magical enhancement immigration brings if the people sit at home unemployed and get embittered? Why is there no immigrants in village X? "because people in village X are racist" of course. No, its because all the people from village X have emigrated to Sweden already in the 1970's and there is no jobs - all the young people wait to finish school and move to the big city to have a future! *That* is the problem the village has, the immigrants are probably more sensible than some Finns that have no sense in economic reality. *You* move to that village and try to get a job! Then you probably start whining they require speaking Swedish to get the only job available.

The Finnish economy needs to be kicked back on track, and it does not help if the government does one thing with one hand and then other things with the other hand. And there is no real immigration policy, the system is still too bureaucratic, even though they have advanced from what it used to be still in 2000.

>Oulu is NOT the third-largest city! Get >your facts straight, it is Manse. ;)

Yes it is. Espoo & Vantaa doesn't count as cities, because they are just suburbs of Helsinki.

Oops, Oulu is number 4.

I think you guys should read what Eugene Holman says about the issue. He's an example its more about attitude who gets a job and who does not. http://www.6d.fi/portrait/page.2005-05-25.9814297803

Considering when he immigrated here, immigrants now have it quite easy.

"but you certainly can't find elitistic boarding schools with student wearing suits and ties, thinking they're are the elite."

Not all private schools are like that. Now if you say "Finland has no elitist boarding schools with students wearing suits and ties" ...then I might agree with you. But you said "private" schools.

Dear Lester Burnham

Your opinion about divided social classes based on language and dialects in Helsinki indeed considers only Helsinki. People respect and consider dialects as a refreshing side of people's personality outside the capital. It has absolutely nothing to do with a social status. I know many CEOs talking in a funny brogue and it makes no difference to their authority.
But I must say that many things concerning Helsinki does not apply in "off-Helsinki-part of country". Actually we, living outside of Helsinki have a plenty of fun to watch Helsinkiates, as they earlier called themselves, to struggle to make themselves such important and better people than everyone else. Very few of us, living in the areas far a way from Helsinki, wants to move there. And the same applies I guess other way a round to these Helsinkiates. Some how the citizens of Helsinki do not really represent the real Finns very well. The real, characteristic Finns you meet by steping out the Ring 3... We are unreserved, honest and modest people, who know their strength without making it a big deal.

"Not all private schools are like that. Now if you say "Finland has no elitist boarding schools with students wearing suits and ties" ...then I might agree with you. But you said "private" schools."

I didn't say that, it was someone else. But anyway, the person was indeed correct saying that there are no private schools in Finland, because the term "private school" means something very different to foreigners that what it means in Finland. For example, there are no similar "commercial" elementary, high-school, college or university education like in most other countries.

OK, so now tell me what kind of private schools there are in Finland. I know only some Steiner schools but even those are state supported. And a couple of Montessori schools. And an international school, a German school, a French scool and an English school. But don´t they all get state support?

"OK, so now tell me what kind of private schools there are in Finland."

I would like to know that too. The only "private" schools I can think of are Steiner and Montessori schools and even they are state supported.

You won't find parents paying tens or hundreds of thousand dollars for educating their kids in "private schools". Not in this country.

"The Finnish economy needs to be kicked back on track"

Hank, that's not really fair. The Finnish economy is performing very well at the moment. It is one of the fastest growing economies in the EU and it is managing US levels of growth without huge tax cuts and it still manages to balance the books.

Finland's unemployment is a concern but it's worth looking at the real reason for it. It's high but that's not the result of the welfare state or anti-business policies. It's the result of a long-term transition from a primarily agrarian to a high-tech economy, meaning you have a lot of quite old people who can't farm and have no other skills.

Unemployment is not a big factor in the Nordic style of welfare state. Last time I checked, unemployment was lower in Norway, Sweden and Denmark than in the US. Finland is an exception because it's a late-comer but there's no strong evidence to suggest that it will stay as high as it is as a result of structural problems.

Well, there are some art academies, but it's not like those are real schools. The only one I can think of is Päivölän Kansanopisto, which offers an upper secondary school -type education among others. And schooling there is most likely cheaper than in normal schools due to the free food and lodging. But, then again, they also get state support most of the time.

One of the reasons for unemployment is that traditional factory work has almost completely disappeared from this country

Most of the unemployed people don't have enough skilss for today's jobs. I am working in an small IT-company few hundred kilometers north from Helsinki and we would hire one or two people here immediately. But it seems to be impossible to find skilled persons to move outside Helsinki. Or if they are willing to do so, they won't accept that outside Helsinki the salaries are lower. But so are living cost, especially prices of the apartments.

See the movie Nousukausi for an amusing look at Finnish "upper/lower class" differences... according to movie not so deep, at least.

And I agree that the Helsinki situation can not be applied everywhere. But even there, most of the people were born somewhere else, so we consider the Helsinki class differences to be partly pretend :) Previously a person speaking non-standard dialect was maybe not taken seriously in some situations. But this probably resulted more in recent arrivals to cities masking their dialects, rather than static classes of differently speaking people looked down upon. Recently there has been a great revival in appreciating the dialects, but they have never been a major obstacle to success, just listen to the business leaders and politicians like ex-pr. Mauno Koivisto.

What a waste of money it is having these nimrods touring Finland. The commentary is so unbelievably naive.... Couldn't they have found some more worldly journalists who are not completely in the dark about foreign countries and European welfare states?

Finland has a distinct culture obviously, but the effect on society (mostly bad IMHO) due to a large public sector and confiscatory taxation is certainly not unique in Western Europe. I mean, the only major difference between some "middle class" guy's lifestyle in rural Finland vs. Sweden is that the latter is more likely to have a sauna in his apartment/house.

The only intersting piece of information here is that you still have Esso stations. So Statoil did not buy out the Esso franchise as they did in Sweden and Denmark. I wonder why not....

Typical: most comments here seem to come from Finns (just like this one) trying to defend Finland against any even slightly negative word about the country.

"Yes it is. Espoo & Vantaa doesn't count as cities, because they are just suburbs of Helsinki."

Espoo and Vantaa are cities, not suburbs, and they do count.

Typical: most comments here seem to come from Finns (just like this one) trying to defend Finland against any even slightly negative word about the country.

------

Good! It means that Finns are finally giving up on the "foreign good - domestic bad" -mentality that has plagued us for so long. Good riddens to that, I say.

"Typical: most comments here seem to come from Finns (just like this one) trying to defend Finland against any even slightly negative word about the country."

First, how do you know what nationality the commenter represents when most write with a neutral nick or without a name. Second, most comments are correcting clear errors, they don't "defend" anything. Third, the reporters wanted as many Finns as possible to comment their stories. Fourth, your comment could be seen as the "typical" Finnish way of putting down other Finns.

It may be true that an immigrant finds a job right away in US and unemployment rate in general is lower there than in Finland. A thing to take into account however is that those easy-to-get jobs often don't pay well enough to support a person and his/her family to really live in the society. People struggle 12-15-hour days of hard work just to be barely able to afford basic needs like food, clothes and a place to live. Though getting a job is hard in Finland, at least Finns are not trying to take advantage of desperate poor people and use their cheap work input to support the economy. I agree that in Finnish society, the protection of workers may have gone a bit too far to be optimal but I consider that a more dignified option than no protection at all.

"I mean, the only major difference between some "middle class" guy's lifestyle in rural Finland vs. Sweden is that the latter is more likely to have a sauna in his apartment/house."

The latter? No, it is the opposite. BTW, hyvä is written with one ä.

Mr Kaiser and Mr Perkins,

If you want to see how well the refugees and other immigrants mingle with the rest of the population, go and see Hervanta-neighbourhood in Tampere or Varissuo in Turku. That's where you're still heading.

In those neighbourhoods, the local government stock all the non-white and students. And in those neighbourhoods there's the biggest drug problems. For some reason, you don't see a muslim woman in a burkha that often in the centre of Tampere, but you can see it in Hervanta.

The Somali refugees, who came in the early 90's have already had time to have kids in Finland, and of course these kids know Finnish and have Finnish friends. Why on the Earth not? I had coloured friends at school (here in Finland), and I wasn't thought weird at all.

Racism lies with those who don't know better...

Interesting you should mention Varissuo Noora. That's where I lived when I first came to Finland and everyone said how awful it is and that it contains the most notorious house in Finland. Admittedly, it's not pretty (though there's a very nice lake nearby) and the queue at the Kela was longer than in other places but if it's the most run down place in Finland, Finland is doing something very right indeed.

Some (not the blog writer) at least in the recent past advanced the notion that the McDonald's (r) chain represents just about everything bad and unhealthy about the Imperialist America. When a McDonald's restaurant is appearing next to some seriously profitable locally-owned competition, the latter, we read, is copycatting. Well, you just can't please everyone ...

I am an Australian living in Finland for the third year, and while I love a lot about it, the fact is that for the first two years I met NOT ONE Finn who had friends who were anything but white.

At my previous job, there was one Somali woman working and she did not even always get invited to coworker functions. The excuse was that she was "probably not interested in our Finnish stuff" (like sauna) and when I wondered why they thought an Australian would be more interested, I got various mumbled excuses but never a straight answer.

Overt racist violence is thankfully less common than, say, in Sweden. The face of Finnish racism is silent exclusion and primitive humor. On this very blog, someone used as their pseudonyme "Ählämi kebab" - ählämi being a racist term for arab, akin to sand nigger. I wonder if the Washington Post would allow the use of such terminology on their pages, did they know about it.

Above all, Finns crave the role of the victim. They fervently want to believe they are downtrodden and abused, and rush to the rescue of their mustard (the company was bought by a Swedish company), their vodka, and even the use of smiling black faces to market licorice, with nationalistic fervor. They make believe that they are on the verge of extinction, and this allows them to overlook the real problems in their society: a crumbling welfare state and widely accepted nationalism and racism that they are completely blind to. Sports commentators, for example, routinely use racist terms about non-white athletes. And people here will actually tell you they are not racist, and then make a racist comment in the next breath!

The only "private" school as in with hefty student fees I'd think is the International School in Helsinki. They're in part funded by the Finnish & US governments, but the fee per student per semester is around 10 000 euros. But they are a special school for travelling expats so its usually "company pays"...

Thank you for the interesting reportage on Finland, it's always fun and sometimes even educational to find out how foreigners see your country :)

But I was stunned to read your entry on Oulu: How is it that you covered technology in Jyväskylä (and Nokia, eventhough Jyväskylä is perhaps today more about Biotech than IT) and then came to the "IT Mecca of Finland" and covered mostly farming??? Sure that's part of life here as well, but come on!! After all, Oulu with one of Finland's first and most succesfull technology parks, has been compared to the likes of your Silicon Valley in the international press (on more occasions then one, and by media more prestiges than News of the World ;)

But, enough of petty critisism. First and foremost I hope you have enjoyed your visit and are going back with a positive attitude towards us Finns and this country of ours :)

Christine - I don't think if there was a person you knew was a devout muslim or from a culture nudity or alcohol is shunned, you'd be inviting them for a "lets go after work on Friday, get naked, have a sauna a few beers and get plastered", now would you?

Christine, tell me one example of sports commentators for using racist terms? Seriously finnish tv is pretty PC in my opinion.

"Though getting a job is hard in Finland, at least Finns are not trying to take advantage of desperate poor people and use their cheap work input to support the economy."

But 'pointer', that makes us racists, because we require fluent Finnish and a masters degree for a job. Problem is; all entry-level service jobs require the language because in Finland workers are required to be pretty autonomous and there is no boss around to tell you what to do like in other countries where the cost structure is different.

When I was working in a hotel I was quite envious for colleagues in other countries there was 10 people providing all kinds of service where in Finland all they could afford was one guy.

Then when you reach the level there is no real need of Finnish, you are in a niche market, but there the cutting edge is sharp. So it is quite a catch-22 situation, and despite what 'Kuopiolainen' says, the economy should be put up on track because I am not supporting some hilbillies or freeloaders with my salary. The welfare state is crumbling and I refuse to be the guy that pays the bills but ends up with the short stick.

The Finnish government on the one hand is all pro enterpreneurship and on the other hand makes it impossible.

And what comes to the welfare state, in today's Ilta-Sanomat there was a nice article of orthopedic surgeons screwing the system keeping national healthcare patients in a long queue and then you can cut the queue if you pay and become a private patient - for the duration of the operation - whilst the pre- and post-operation fees are paid by the regular healtcare system.

>> widely accepted nationalism and racism that they are completely blind to >>

Maybe we should follow the example of more civilized nations and put all the asylum seekers in a concentration camp in a desert, or force them on Faroe Islands if the come on ship?

Christine - Sorry about your unpleasant experiences, of course there are some racist or unthoughtful people, but it is false to say that most Finns wouldn't "want" non-Finnish friends. Foreigners are still so few that you can't classify the persons not having "black friends" racist.
Many hardly met foreigners growing up. Finns will not go out of their way to meet new people either, unfortunately for immigrants.

Finns do not seriously think they will go extinct either, there are things in the papers like "the last finn will be born in 2050", but that is not about race but to get us to accept retirement benefit cuts, for example...

Jokes like "ählämi" are unfortunate, but often not demeaning, but appreciative of the better quality of Turkish kebab, for example (at least from me).

But truly, let's hope the reporters will get around to meeting some foreigners in Finland! What about Russians? The Vietnamese? Kurds? Another point is that white/black doesn't describe the situation very well, for example it can be refugees as a group getting criticized and having to live in dinky suburbs.

BTW Phil, people from North Ostrobothnia are really notorious babblemouths, so I think they found an extroverted guy on the tractor.

It helps to shed the "silent Finns" stereotype starting from the East.

Christine, as an Australian, do you have many aboriginal friends? Not trying to put you down if you don't, just would be interesting to know.

Caroline:

"On this very blog, someone used as their pseudonyme "Ählämi kebab" - ählämi being a racist term for arab, akin to sand nigger. I wonder if the Washington Post would allow the use of such terminology on their pages, did they know about it."

Caroline, what can you expect from folks who don't even care smearing our nation in front of the very eyes of the whole world. The bad thing in free education seems to be that even these kinds of people are educated to the extent where they can use it against those who have paid for it.

Finnish happens to be the language that majority of the customers in Finland understand and expect to be able to carry out their everyday errands with.

Knowledge of local language is a basic requirement for immigrant workers in every country, and in Finland this barrier becomes a higher one, because our language is rare and totally different from most others. To tell an example how language affects your ability to do even simplest tasks, just last fall I lost twice in a row very important and urgent shippings from abroad because the delivery persons working for the express shipping company did not properly speak nor understand Finnish, Swedish or English. No need to say, I was really p**sed off and don't intend to use the services of that company anymore, because the malfunctions nearly ruined my own business. It's the quality of service that counts and if customers for what ever reasons don't get what they expect, they'll abandon you. Since the cost of hiring workers is really high the employers can't afford to hire a less successful worker even though they would sympathise his/her struggle in a foreign country. Strive for highest possible productivity affects Finns quite harshly as well.

Rather then lamenting about Swedish,Immigrants,Hesburgers or the Luthern Church..maybe we should talk about other things!
What makes us great..or not is that we always worry!!Money,education,children,status,taxes,etc.

We enjoy an above normal Standard of Living with all the High Tech Gadgets and still are not Happy..
How Happy were our ancestors who worked until they dropped,feared for their lives and died when they were too young ?? Yet they still were proud of their traditions!

We have alot to be proud of and also to be thankful for..without them we would not be here..bitching!!

Just Remember this....
As far as Old people in Finland..

Someone had to chop down the trees..
Burn the Forest....
Move the Rocks...
Plant the Rye...
Shot the Russians...
So that you can have a Nokia Telephone..Fair trade?

My turkish friend had this conversation in a kebabkiosk:
Kioskowner: Look a brother. Do you own a kebabkiosk?
Friend: Err...no?
K: What are you? Unemployed?

The two choices of life. So you see the prejudices are so strong that the mid-eastern immigrants endorse them themselves.

"It helps to shed the "silent Finns" stereotype starting from the East."

Hmmmm... Finnish Karelians are that Finnish tribe that talks and laughs (or cries).

Pointer said:

> Finnish happens to be the language
> that majority of the customers in
> Finland understand and expect to be
> able to carry out their everyday
> errands with.

I speak almost no Finnish, but the
above is correct in nearly all of
Finland.

> Knowledge of local language is a
> basic requirement for immigrant
> workers in every country, and in
> Finland this barrier becomes a
> higher one, because our language is
> rare and totally different from
> most others. To tell an example
> how language affects your ability to
> do even simplest tasks, just last
> fall I lost twice in a row very
> important and urgent shippings
> from abroad because the delivery
> persons working for the express
> shipping company did not properly
> speak nor understand Finnish,
> Swedish or English. No need to say,
> I was really p**sed off and don't
> intend to use the services of
> that company anymore, because
> the malfunctions nearly ruined my
> own business.

That would (seem to me) to be
problem anywhere, not just in
Finland. Delivery people need to
understand the local geography, and
that probably means that they had
better speak the local language.

> It's the quality of service that
> counts and if customers for what
> ever reasons don't get what they
> expect, they'll abandon you.

Right.

> Since the cost of hiring workers
> is really high the employers can't
> afford to hire a less successful
> worker even though they would
> sympathise his/her struggle in a
> foreign country. Strive for
> highest possible productivity
> affects Finns quite harshly as
> well.

This is the case in most Western
nations, including the United
States - though some employers get
around it by hiring people
through "temporary" or "staffing"
firms such as Manpower (and as an
aside, the Manpower Web site for
Finland appears to be entirely in
the Finnish language).

Matti said:

> Rather then lamenting about Swedish,
> Immigrants, Hesburgers or the Luthern
> Church..maybe we should talk about
> other things!

My late Mother, who was born and raised
in Sweden, but considered herself to
have close ties to Finland because
_her_ Mother was Finnish (and she married
a Finn, my Dad), always felt that
Finland's greatest asset was (and in my
opinion is) its people.

For all interested, I have found this webiste rather amusing too:

www.axis-of-aevil.org

Living in the states, it's been interesting to campre my impressions about the States comopared to "aevils" of Finland.

Finland provided home for over 400 000 karelian refugees after the continual war, fact that is somehow forgotten today. The way Karelians were infused to Finnish society still remains one of incredible achievements that only Finnish Sisu is capable.

I must explain the figure 400 000 to our foreign readers. It was about 10% of the population of the country. At the same time Finland paid huge war compensation to Russia (That is the faith of the losing side. You have to pay, even if they take a part of your land).

Anyway it is a remarkable achievement and in a way it good be compared to New Deal in U.S. since big land owner were forced to give a small piece of land to the Karelian refugees who had to leave their homes.

I have also heard a story that when Russian soldiers came to occupied area, they could not find a single man. Nor they could find a single domestic animal; cat, dog, cow.... I have read it was quite a spooky feeling for the russian soldiers. Don't know whether this is the whole truth though.

"devout muslim or from a culture nudity or alcohol is shunned, you'd be inviting them for a "lets go after work on Friday, get naked, have a sauna a few beers and get plastered", now would you?"

She's not a devout muslim, actually - but that must also have been the reason she didn't get invited to go bowling, then?

Yes, I do have aboriginal friends. And I'm even friends with Finns who have emigrated to Australia.

Christine, I know people of all colors, breeds and countries. I have friends all over. Christine, where've you been? People of African origin as well, oh yes, what the problem is that people really easily generalize their own experiences.

Some historical background makes it easier to undertstand social behaviour. When Finns flocked to Sweden in 60's and 70's for work, they were given the cold shoulder and had to fight for exceptance and in some they still are. Like the Somali in Finland, they've been here a decade or so. Prior to that there really wasn't an African populous in this country. Somali kids born here mingle with Finnish kids, they speak the language and that's really all it takes to get into this society.

i was surprised to read that finland is strongly lutheran. my impression has always been that this is a country of agnostics and atheists - unlike the u.s. which is overpopulated with bible-thumping, science shunning evangelists. the world survey group recently indicated that only 10 percent of americans are non-religious, 3 percent of which are atheists (i am in the 3 percent). i believe appx. half the swedes identified as agnostics. furthermore, 60 percent of americans believed that they were a "chosen" people. terrifying is it not? they are a "chosen" people but live in a country rife with violence and corruption!

most atheists are in the closet in the u.s., but i choose to be very vocal about it.

About copycatting: Where do the oh-so-familiar golden arches of McDonalds come from? -Well of course, they are a copy of the great arch of St. Louis, designed by Finnish-born architect Eero Saarinen...

Hi Robert and Lucien!
First off all , thank you wery much for your nice article off land called Suomi, Finland.My point off this comments are that some people dont think , before they write something to pages like this, iam sorry about it.But you know that allready too.
My parent came two times from Karjala to Finland and we where first regfugees in this country, then we didnt have sosial wellwear to go att all.Our parents got one little piece off land and they got to built their owen houses, with a loan from the Finnish state, which our parents where apple to pay back. Its eassy to make jokes from that what people dont know.My Mother worked in 3-4 houses to get some traktors or macines to work our fiels, and when i have born in Finland 1949, after war, this country where wery poor, Finland was apple to pay Russia a hell off lot Goods, trailway vans lasted from Tampere to Italy, and land Karjala too, and money, macines and do it here for ex. in Tampere, Tampella, People worked 16 -17 hour without salarys. When we was childeren, we have go and pick up berrys in from the forest and work in the fieds, too and there wasnt mouning ,everybody did do that, every house had a lot children and schoolsystem worked well allready. Finns where alone in that wintherwar, it lasted 105 days.
But after all not well beening times we finns worked, Karjalas refugees worked wery hard too, and they did not get any money , exsept that loan from Finnish state,what my Mother and father payed back.
So i am wery proud off my culture finnish and Karjalas too(i have visitet Kurkijoki),proud to bee finn been and been living allso in 6 countrys allso in States in California,Australia, England, Sweden,Danmark, Canada and visitet 24 other counrys as well, is not wery much, but something. Young people shoud go to read history, and fine out our roots too.
Allso these people who move here, they shoud get information off history too,as anywhere, is the same.Its important
and wery healthy.I dont underestimate any person in this world, even many time got undersestimated.
I live now in Tampere Finland and i love this city.i dont moan things , i have worked in restaurants and cleanig here and in the world too. Still Suomi is lovely counry to live, is off course sometimes too quiet, but i can allways take aeroplane to there where is more action.I love our nature which is chains every season, clean waters and still clean citys. Sauna and people too, we are frienly, but you must earn that first.Finns are cleaver too, so many things are showing it! I dont have mention it.We allso help many countrys, how much must 5 miljon people give? we try to keep heath care high up, still thats wery good. So thank you for your conser to this country, wery much.
love Marja-Leena Tampere

Finland is the land of the habitually Lutheran.

By reading this forum, you may get a very rosy picture of Finland. Indeed the country is one of most corrupted in Europe.(EU-countries are very corrupted compared to the United States) You may familirize yourself with the corruption by contacting the authors and publishers of these websites. http://www.suuripuhallus.com and about the sonera-case.(Finland's secret Enron) http://www.nettisanomat.com/2002/06/27/sonera_1.htm#sonerallaon

Indeed if you follow the discussion in the Finnish financial forums you will see how there is no good and proper corporate governance whatsoever at the Finnish companies. Insider dealing is the habit of the country and local govermental bodies do not supervise the companies at all. If I recall right the Finnish state has never sued any bigger companies for tax frauds. It is hardly believable that no company cheat or try to cheat when it comes to taxes. This is only possible in the country where "big brothers" are close enough each others. Two major parties SDP and Kokoomus have shared all the major seats at govermental bodies.Also the same parties get the most contributions from the Finnish corporates. If you study more detailed the Finnish wonder you will see similarities to former Japan wonder with huge corruption.

"i was surprised to read that finland is strongly lutheran. my impression has always been that this is a country of agnostics and atheists"

Finland isn't strongly lutheran. People are members of the church because of a habit. As someone noted, a finn goes to church two times: wheh s/he gets married, and when s/he's dead. Hardly anyone believes in god and bible is taken as a collection of primitive fairy tales.

80% of finns are members of the lutheran church ie. 4 out of 5 finns are devoted christians. God fearing people etc.

"80% of finns are members of the lutheran church ie. 4 out of 5 finns are devoted christians. God fearing people etc."

Translation for foreigners: Pekka is just joking. (Or if he is not, he lives in a dream world. Finland is one of the most secular countries you can find.)

For example if you go to court to testify, you take the oath with your hand on the Bible. How is this not a christian nation?

"For example if you go to court to testify, you take the oath with your hand on the Bible. How is this not a christian nation?"

Only those who are members of the church do that. Those who are not, or are a member of some other religion, do not take oaths with hand on the bible. There is a secular neutral oath for them. (It's taught already in comprehensive school...)

Didn't read the whole thread, but:

It is a real danger that Finnish higher education won't be tuition free for long. As we speak the ministry of education is preparing a law that makes it possible for universities and polytechnics to take tuition fees from students coming outside Europe.

And from there, there is just a small step to tuition fees for Finns also.

Be aware and contact Members of Parliament!

That's right. Most people use the secular oath "trough my honor and conscience" in court. The bible on the hand version is an old relic of more primitive world, and meaningless to most Finns.

As "Turnips" wrote above, most Finns are members of the church just because it's an old custom and they're too lazy to leave the church. That's used as a lobbying tool by the church to make it look like most Finns are religious.

That's right. Most people use the secular oath "trough my honor and conscience" in court. The bible on the hand version is an old relic of more primitive world, and meaningless to most Finns.

As "Turnips" wrote above, most Finns are members of the church just because it's an old custom and they're too lazy to leave the church. That's used as a lobbying tool by the church to make it look like most Finns are religious.

That's right. Most people use the secular oath "trough my honor and conscience" in court. The bible on the hand version is an old relic of more primitive world, and meaningless to most Finns.

As "Turnips" wrote above, most Finns are members of the church just because it's an old custom and they're too lazy to leave the church. That's used as a lobbying tool by the church to make it look like most Finns are religious.

Re: ""typical shy finns who can't even look people into eyes" etc."

I remember being extremely annoyed when in an American current affairs program (I think it might have been 60 minutes) a reporter wanted to demonstrate this by strolling down a busy street in Helsinki and staring at everybody. Naturally, Finns looked away - but I wonder what have happened if he'd done the same in, say, New York? What do you think?

"There is a secular neutral oath"

That's right. Most people use the secular oath "trough my honor and conscience" in court. The hand on bible version is an old relic of more primitive world, and meaningless to most Finns.

As "Turnips" wrote above, most Finns are members of the church just because it's an old custom and they're too lazy to leave the church. That's used as a lobbying tool by the church to make it look like most Finns are religious.

"there is just a small step to tuition fees for Finns also"

I'm also a bit worried about that stupid idea, but as far as I know, we are not talking about tens or hundreds of thousands of euros/dollars like elsewhere.

Unemployment is not a big factor in the Nordic style of welfare state.
--
Finland is not a welfare state like many others in europe are.
There is less of welfare than eu average in finland.

"Finland is not a welfare state like many others in europe are."

I've experienced the "welfare" of quite many European "welfare" states, and my experiences are that only Nordic countries can be called welfare states.

and widely accepted nationalism and racism that they are completely blind to.
--

Not so much of that in Finland. Streets are safe for foreigners in most towns. Foreigners from most countries are attacked less often than Finns.

Finns are number 2 in their country, Swedes go above.
Other minorities that you could say are real minorities are not taken care of, gypsies, russians, samis do not have their own schools and universities nor the state money nor the riches. They do not have the influence to have any of the privileges the swedes have.

"gypsies, russians, samis do not have their own schools and universities"

Gypsies seldom study more than comprehensive school, I don't know any gypsies in higher education (I know they exist, but it's rare). And in a country of 5 million people, you can imagine how small in number those minorities are. An university for gypsies or samis wouldn't have much students, if any. And why would they need their own university when they can study in normal ones just like everyone else.

About the gypsies: they were brought to finland by king of sweden long time ago, who thought finland too should have some. They lack education. Many end up in jails. (Swedish king also took finns to norway, where they were put into a place called finnskogen, finn forest, to be eaten by bears and wolves, some survived, killing and eating bears and such) - Finland should give the schools the swedes have here, to gypsies and other "real" minorities, they really would need them, the swedes could well attend finnish schools as most of them speak finnish well.

""Finland is not a welfare state like many others in europe are."

I've experienced the "welfare" of quite many European "welfare" states, and my experiences are that only Nordic countries can be called welfare states.""

Did you also experience the Finnish one ? And in which town (no need to answer) - it varies a lot between towns here as it is not the government but the towns that provide social services.

"Did you also experience the Finnish one ? And in which town (no need to answer) - it varies a lot between towns here as it is not the government but the towns that provide social services."

Especially the finnish one. True, there are differencies between cities, but nobody is left living on the streets, without health care or without education. It's just that finns demand more and more when they already have things better than elsewhere. A finn who complains that things is his or her city are worse than in the neighbour city should try living abroad, even in those so-called "welfare" states.

There is a so much simple factual error on this thread that I despair.

I would recommend that non-Finnish readers simply ignore most of the comments. The articles are pretty accurate though.

"nobody is left living on the streets, "

Yes, they are. There are people living in trash-cans in all Finnish towns. (During the winter, they are a bit warmer than the outside.) One must have stayed inside all the time, in some upperclass part of town (try living in trash-can there, be given a ride in a police car)

simple factual error on this thread that I despair.
--
In other words, someone is telling the truth instead of the official truths and that you would not like to see ?

"About the gypsies: they were brought to finland by king of sweden long time ago, who thought finland too should have some."

I suppose your whole answer was a joke. King of Sweden didn´t think that "finland too should have some", king of Sweden thought that Finland should have them all = the Roma were not allowed to settle in Sweden proper, they were all sent to the eastland.

I know of a gypsy lawyer and a girl who is studying linquistics at the university. But usually it is very hard to make the Roma children stay at school and not drop out. But at least nowadays they are given proper housing. In 1950´s many were still travelling people.

"An university for gypsies or samis wouldn't have much students, if any. And"

And why not ? State says, most should go to higher education. So just let them, too, go.

"why would they need their own university when they can study in normal ones just like everyone else."

Well, to avoid being called a gypsy ?

"In 1950´s many were still travelling people."

Apparently in many countries they still are. They make excuses (for not giving housing) such as it being in their culture not be in one place (reality is they were not/are not allowed to)

"Yes, they are. There are people living in trash-cans in all Finnish towns. (During the winter, they are a bit warmer than the outside.) One must have stayed inside all the time, in some upperclass part of town (try living in trash-can there, be given a ride in a police car)"

I don't know any town that has a "upper class" or "bad part" in the sense they exist elsewhere.

And if you can find a few exceptions in a trash can (I've never seen one, in any town or city, only in a TV program and it was the lifestyle he chose), most likely local social services aren't aware of their situation and the person doesn't have enough wits to contact them themselves. There are also some pathological cases who, when given an apartment, decide to return back on the streets.

"As an American with Finnish roots I'm absolutely appalled by this discussion. "

I would say a Swede.

"One or two activists use this forum to spread lies about the relations of the "

In other words,
tyst nu finnjävlar !

"different language groups. Shame on you Pauli Ojenpera and the rest of you (if there are any others)."

So you want to say (swedes are not too clever) you are the only one disagreeing (where else would such a though come from) with the reality.

"What strikes me, is that one man has during prime working time, time to produce this many hate messages. To my knowledge"

Hate ? Where is the hate elsewhere but in your attempt to silence Finns ?

" the holidays haven't yet started in Finland nor have the schools ended. Either this "character" is very very lazy on his job or then the tax payers are paying for his "hobby"."

You give out too much about yourself, to be american, in your post.

"I do agree. It sounds like a lot of Paulis that I met in school. Now they work at the local Burger King. I guess you don't have Burger King in Finland?"

Well wrong opinions mean no work even at Hesburger here in Finland. Higher up in society, even lower middle-class, people have to suck up to the Swedes to hold their jobs. And to lose one - never get one back as the Swedes are good in lies, though the lies are transparent "he is a drunk", "he is.." (so that the person would not get work anymore)

"Posted by: Charles Davidson | May 28, 2005 04:34 PM"

Börje Svensson you mean to say ?

"gypsies, russians, samis do not have their own schools and universities"

Just wondering - do Romani people ("gypsies") have their own schools and universities anywhere? Or other minuscule minorities? According to latest statistics (http://www.tilastokeskus.fi/tup/suoluk/taskue_vaesto.html#structure) 0.71% of population are classified as Russian (by language), and 0.03 as Sami/Lappish... From a total population of 5.2 million, that is not very much.

"Yet Finns obey the 100 kilometers-per-hour (62 mph) speed limit quite religiously"

Yes, some do. The traffic police is the only branch of police that does its job well. Finnish roads are relatively safe, when considering accidents/km driven, thanks to them.

"McDonald's is also everywhere in Finland, as are Hessburgers, a local copycat. Pizza is a national favorite."

Have about a visit to some local nakkikioski ?
They are better and less healthy.

When I lived in Finland there was a three percent tax on my salary (I was teaching English at a large university) which went directly to the Lutheran church. I am Lutheran, so I thought it was cool.

When you say that the couple you mention put their three children through college I reflected that generally college is paid for by the state. In America the family pays tuition, and for room and board, either by themselves or with the help of loans. But Finnish students get their tuition paid for and are given a housing and book allowance by the government. On the other hand only about ten percent of their youth get to attend college.

There are only about ten colleges (universities) and there don't seem to be any religious colleges there. Again, unlike America.

I think this is a really neat blog, and I look forward to following it. I don't know what took me so long to discover it. Very nicely written, and quite excellent in terms of details.

"On the other hand only about ten percent of their youth get to attend college."

As far as I know, two thirds (2/3) of the age group to polytechnic colleges and universities is the aim and was the situation at least at some point.

There's an article about Finnish schools at Virtual Finland:

http://virtual.finland.fi/netcomm/news/showarticle.asp?intNWSAID=30625

"There are only about ten colleges (universities) and there don't seem to be any religious colleges there. Again, unlike America."

Colleges are polytechnic (bachelor) institutes (AMK in Finnish). Universities (Yliopisto in Finnish) are academic institutes (master's/licensiate/doctorate degrees).

At least in my vocabulary I'm very careful not to mix colleges (AMKs) to universities.

What comes to a "religious university", the whole idea sounds totally absurd to me. Science and superstition don't go very well together.

People on these pages seems to express their own thoughts as official truth. Some portion may be true, but they more or less tell their own opinions.

The official record of single homeless people can be found in http://www.ymparisto.fi/default.asp?contentid=132410&lan=fi

Green, living temporarily with frieds etc.
Blue, institutions
Red, living outside

I am not claiming that the government statistic is the whole truth either, but it gives somekind of idea of the problem.

You can say that that one homeless people is one too many, but the problem is not as vast as some has insisted here.

It is difficult to get an apartment in larger cities like Helsinki and it may be specially difficult for young people leaving their homes and parents. But in smaller cities this problems is very small.

The diagram illustrates the number of single people without a home. I claim that there is no homeless family with children.

I was quite surprised about your choise of places to visit, you are only touring the south of the country (Oulu is still middle Finland) and leaving one of the most beautiful parts of the country unvisited and unmentioned! Lapland is different from the rest of Finland both by landscape and people, as I am pretty sure the rest of Finns can agree on. I am myself from the "gateway"to Lapland, Santa Claus'hometown (he does not come from North Pole like Americans are lied to) Rovaniemi and a lot of times I get commented by people from the south of the country for being a lot more open and social, a different kind of person compared to the "southeners". Also Lapland has a big part of the amazing landscapes in Finland, it is not all boring and flat as in the south =)!!

I am anyhow eargerly reading your stories, but would have expected a tour of the country, not the south only.

Keep up the good work.

"There are only about ten colleges (universities) and there don't seem to be any religious colleges there. Again, unlike America."

There are 21 universities (including Sibelius Academy) and 29 colleges. But you are right, none are religious. And the amount of people who take up higher studies is really 2/3 of the age group, and even more would like to go academic. Which is a bit much in my opinion, and not even explainable by future salaries, because the difference between higher and lower salaries is really not that big after progressive taxes.

"You can say that that one homeless people is one too many, but the problem is not as vast as some has insisted here."

People in institutions aren't living on the streets. And very few of those who are technically without an apartment but who don't live temporarily with someone else, are actually on the streets (or without health etc. services) in the sense you see homeless people outside of Nordic countries. The problem is that many terms like "homeless", "unemployed", "upper class" and "private school" can mean very different things in different countries.

For example, if both parents are unemployed in Nordic countries, foreigner from a country with totally different system might picture them living in a van without health care, education or food. In reality, they have basic income and support, and their kids go to same schools and same universities as anyone else.

There are about 250 Catholic colleges and universities in America and about 42 Lutheran colleges. Almost every denomination has a college or university. There are even one or two Buddhist universities in America. In America the difference between a college and a university is that a university offers master's degrees and a college doesn't.

In Finland an "yliopisto" is the university while there are other names for technical colleges. I think one word is "amattikorkeakoulu." I'm not sure that in America there is an equivalent to this so I didn't know how to translate it. To get into university in Finland (yliopisto) you have to pass a rigorous test. Only about ten percent of the population passes. The other large percentage can go into another kind of school which is more job-oriented in nature. There are only about ten "yliopisto" in Finland. There are many many technical colleges however, and perhaps this is part of the confusion that I have obviously created with my post.

In America about 82% of young people go to a college or university -- it's very hard to compare the two systems, but my point was to try to separate the university (yliopisto) and to show that it wasn't something that everyone could attend. I think this is the same in almost all of the European countries. Many students try to get into yliopisto but are denied. Only about ten percent of those who tried to get into the English department where I worked were allowed to get in.

American universities also have admissions standards but since we have a lot more univeristies there is generally one that will let you in.

The Finnish students were extremely bright and fun to work with. When you got to know them they would speak very creatively on every topic (in English!) and each one had their own incredibly interesting opinions. They were a little more shy in public but if you spoke to them one-to-one they were quite brilliant and iconoclastic.

And another amazing thing -- at Tampere Yliopisto where I worked the students put their expensive winter coats in an open area where they left them while they attended classes. They were left sometimes for the whole day and no one ever stole them! Hundreds of coats left hanging in the open!

I was amused to think that in America possibly all that would be left of such coats at the end of the day would be a button or two that rolled to the side of the room after they had been snatched.

To me this seemed quite Lutheran even though very few of my Finnish students attended the church. The ethos was there, and very deeply ingrained.

"Only about ten percent of the population passes."

For the first try. I would claim that if you're motivated to get in an university, eventually you will pass even thought it might need a few attempts. It's very common that a tudent who doesn't pass the entrance exams at the first try take a year off and study for the next year's entrance exams, or study a year or two in a polytechnic college (AMK), or some other institute, and then transfer to an university.
There are special conversion study programs for polytechnic college (offering bachelor degrees)
graduates for continuing in an university (offering master's, licensiate and doctorate degrees) too.

"There are only about ten "yliopisto" in Finland. There are many many technical colleges however, and perhaps this is part of the confusion that I have obviously created with my post."

There are 21 universities and 29 polytechnic colleges, which is quite a lot for a 5 million population.

Here is a list of all universities (yliopisto) in Finland, there are 21 of them (and 29 colleges in addition to the universities):

http://www.edu.fi/koulut/yliopistot.html

http://www.cc.jyu.fi/~pamakine/suomi/uni.fi.html

The list on that site shows the ones that are universities (up to the doctorate).

"To me this seemed quite Lutheran even though very few of my Finnish students attended the church. The ethos was there, and very deeply ingrained."

I would say that it is just morals. Doesn´t every single religion teach that stealing is wrong?

Just curious: how does religion show in a religious colleges curriculum? Or is it just that churches finance colleges and universities, and otherwise stay invisible?

Someting to say about the Finnish diet: From after WWII until the late 1970s, Finland had one of Europe's highest rates of heart disease, high blood pressure and smoking. The diet was heavy in dairy fats, sausages and salt; smoking was ubiquitous. It was the ground-breaking public health study in North Karelia that demonstrated the healthy diet, which caught in the rest of the country; and Finland led the world in anti-tobacco legislation and education. Finland banned smoking in the workplace several years ago, and smoking in restaurants and bars is soon to be banned as well. The results in terms of improved health have been dramatic.

Norbert Hirschhorn MD
(resident in Finland)

And here some facts about education in US (from year 1999):

"The educational attainment of 25- to 29-year-olds increased between 1971 and 1998. The percentage with a high school diploma or equivalency certificate rose from 78 to 88 percent; the percentage of high school completers with some college rose from 44 to 66 percent; and the percentage of high school completers with a bachelor's degree or higher rose from 22 to 31 percent."

Source: http://nces.ed.gov/, report: The condition of education (1999)

In summary, it seems 88% of americans manage to get high-school completed, 66% go to college but don't get a degree, and 31% of the population achieve bachelor's degree or higher. In Finland, the basic degree that people take from university is MSc, bachelor's has been an option but hasn't been that popular.

If intake to some department is 1/10 it's not necessarily the same for all of them and most certainly doesn't mean that 10% of the population has access to university. However, that's an understandable statistical miscalculation coming from a person working at language department :)

Yes, for the size of the population there are a large number of universities in Finland. For instance, in the Seattle area with about 5 million people there are only three universities and two of them are religious in orientation.

As I counted through the list of twenty-one Yliopisto in the lists that were presented I saw only 12 that I think would have all the different departments that a university would have?

For instance the theatre school -- how many students go there? Of course I know that theatres are extremely well-attended in Finland (it was almost impossible to get a ticket in Tampere where I lived as they were often sold out for a year or more in advance!) but I can't believe that more than say a few hundred students are going to the theatre school.

Someone asked about the separation of church and studies in religious colleges and universities in America. This varies quite a bit by denomination. For instance, there are 42 Lutheran colleges and universities. Of these most of them belong to the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, which is rather liberal. For instance Muhlenberg College in Allentown, Pennsylvania is ELCA. And yet on their faculty of 108 teachers only three are Lutherans. Many of them don't have any religious orientation at all. The church on Muhlenberg campus still has a Lutheran pastor but it is not required that students or faculty attend the church in order to remain enrolled, nor is it necessary in any of the departments to follow Lutheran orthodoxy in any shape or form in order to receive good grades or remain in good standing. The college receives money from the synod and some Lutheran pastors remain on the board of trustees. That's pretty typical. There are some Lutheran colleges (Missouri synod) where faith is more or less a given, but even there I believe they are ecumenical to some extent.

Luther already had a strong separation between church and state in Wittenberg. He argued that the arts were not under theological control, and that there was to be no such thing as Lutheran mathematics, or Lutheran agriculture. Those fields were free to define themselves. I think this is a big part of what has made the Scandinavian Lutheran societies so successful in their adaptation to contemporary life. Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Iceland and of course Finland have all shared in the freedom of thought that Luther set up from the very beginning with ihs two kingdoms theology.

Germany on the other hand is still quite Catholic in the south (Hitler and almost his entire high command was Catholic at least in terms of their upbringing -- I wouldn't argue that they remained Catholic in substance!!).

But Catholic colleges in America are quite liberal. Most of them are not under the strict control of the Papacy but represent orders that are a few degrees of separation from the more strict Catholicism represented by the Pope. So for example at Notre Dame University in Indiana there are specialists in Queer Studies, for instance. Many of these teachers would be atheists and yet they are still permitted to be on the faculty.

So at least in many of our religious universities and colleges there is a whole panoply of approaches both secular and Christian but yes they often receive money from their synod or from their parish.

We also have very strict Calvinist Reform universities and colleges. For these you must avow that you belong to the faith and that you believe on Christ whether you are a student or a faculty or a staff member (even secretaries). There are quite a few problems in their science departments when it comes to dealing with Creationism and so on as at some of the schools evolution is still a more or less forbidden topic.

These problems don't exist in the Lutheran colleges here. Quite the opposite.

I realize that in Finland there are also Lutheran seminaries which function quite a bit like colleges would here and that the people who come out of those seminaries are highly trained and speak multiple languages and are deeply versed in theology.

It's very hard to compare the two systems. What surprised me about Finland was how good the English was throughout the society even among people who have not received a formal education. Some of my relatives there have extremely unusual and charming vocabularies and once you get them talking they will say things like, "Her manner rankled me." A precise and exquisite vocabulary.

My children speak Finnish as does my wife (who is from Seinajoki). I think in many ways Finnish is much more expressive than English and it is also apparently the most singable language in the world due to its wonderfully rich vowels.

Yes, for the size of the population there are a large number of universities in Finland. For instance, in the Seattle area with about 5 million people there are only three universities and two of them are religious in orientation.

As I counted through the list of twenty-one Yliopisto in the lists that were presented I saw only 12 that I think would have all the different departments that a university would have?

For instance the theatre school -- how many students go there? Of course I know that theatres are extremely well-attended in Finland (it was almost impossible to get a ticket in Tampere where I lived as they were often sold out for a year or more in advance!) but I can't believe that more than say a few hundred students are going to the theatre school.

Someone asked about the separation of church and studies in religious colleges and universities in America. This varies quite a bit by denomination. For instance, there are 42 Lutheran colleges and universities. Of these most of them belong to the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, which is rather liberal. For instance Muhlenberg College in Allentown, Pennsylvania is ELCA. And yet on their faculty of 108 teachers only three are Lutherans. Many of them don't have any religious orientation at all. The church on Muhlenberg campus still has a Lutheran pastor but it is not required that students or faculty attend the church in order to remain enrolled, nor is it necessary in any of the departments to follow Lutheran orthodoxy in any shape or form in order to receive good grades or remain in good standing. The college receives money from the synod and some Lutheran pastors remain on the board of trustees. That's pretty typical. There are some Lutheran colleges (Missouri synod) where faith is more or less a given, but even there I believe they are ecumenical to some extent.

Luther already had a strong separation between church and state in Wittenberg. He argued that the arts were not under theological control, and that there was to be no such thing as Lutheran mathematics, or Lutheran agriculture. Those fields were free to define themselves. I think this is a big part of what has made the Scandinavian Lutheran societies so successful in their adaptation to contemporary life. Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Iceland and of course Finland have all shared in the freedom of thought that Luther set up from the very beginning with ihs two kingdoms theology.

Germany on the other hand is still quite Catholic in the south (Hitler and almost his entire high command was Catholic at least in terms of their upbringing -- I wouldn't argue that they remained Catholic in substance!!).

But Catholic colleges in America are quite liberal. Most of them are not under the strict control of the Papacy but represent orders that are a few degrees of separation from the more strict Catholicism represented by the Pope. So for example at Notre Dame University in Indiana there are specialists in Queer Studies, for instance. Many of these teachers would be atheists and yet they are still permitted to be on the faculty.

So at least in many of our religious universities and colleges there is a whole panoply of approaches both secular and Christian but yes they often receive money from their synod or from their parish.

We also have very strict Calvinist Reform universities and colleges. For these you must avow that you belong to the faith and that you believe on Christ whether you are a student or a faculty or a staff member (even secretaries). There are quite a few problems in their science departments when it comes to dealing with Creationism and so on as at some of the schools evolution is still a more or less forbidden topic.

These problems don't exist in the Lutheran colleges here. Quite the opposite.

I realize that in Finland there are also Lutheran seminaries which function quite a bit like colleges would here and that the people who come out of those seminaries are highly trained and speak multiple languages and are deeply versed in theology.

It's very hard to compare the two systems. What surprised me about Finland was how good the English was throughout the society even among people who have not received a formal education. Some of my relatives there have extremely unusual and charming vocabularies and once you get them talking they will say things like, "Her manner rankled me." A precise and exquisite vocabulary.

My children speak Finnish as does my wife (who is from Seinajoki). I think in many ways Finnish is much more expressive than English and it is also apparently the most singable language in the world due to its wonderfully rich vowels.

Someone asked about schools for the Roma. I don't think there are in such schools Finland but in some places in East Central Europe there are even élite private boarding schools for the Roma, such as the famous Gandhi School in Pecs, Hungary. A similar type of school has also opened in Kolín, the Czech Republic. This has absolutely nothing to do with the practice of segregating Roma children to worse schools, also known to happen in some parts of the former Eastern bloc.

"What surprised me about Finland was how good the English was throughout the society even among people who have not received a formal education."

It also helps that foreign TV programs aren't dubbed in Finland, but with subtitles. It also motivates kids to learn to read quite early as someone noted earlier.

To Kirby Olsson: Thank you for taking the time and explaining the religious colleges. It really seems that it depends on the religion in question.

"I realize that in Finland there are also Lutheran seminaries which function quite a bit like colleges would here and that the people who come out of those seminaries are highly trained and speak multiple languages and are deeply versed in theology."

I am not sure that those exist any more. There used to be places called "pappisseminaari" (clergy seminar), but I believe all priests nowadays study theology at the university.

Your wife has been wise to talk Finnish to children. My cousin married to Austria and never talked Finnish to her children, only German. Now the children are grown and are very disappointed that their mother didn´t give them her language. They say they feel awkward talking German or English to their Finnish relatives.

>'Lapland, Santa Claus'hometown (he does not come from North Pole like Americans are lied to'

that is like people from Anaheim saying; Anaheim, Micky Mouse's hometown (he does not come from Orlando like Floridians are lied to)

Toby,

Don't you recognise a joke when you see one? Then again, maybe besides quietness there is another widespread myth that Finns don't have a sense of humour and the few ideas we express are meant to be taken as the absolute truth.

Oulu is excatly in the central Finland!
about 600 km to Helsinki and 600 km to
Utsjoki!

"Oulu is excatly in the central Finland!"

Maybe geographically, but people will think about the province of Central Finland around Jyväskylä, and Oulu if nowhere near it. Considering that most Finns live in the southern part of the country, Oulu is very far north actually.

Excatly. But population doesn't make the country. I live in Sodankylä, and it's so much nature and places to visit here In lapland!

Maria, DI:

Thank you for your input! Yes, once again as a selfcentered Helsinkiate I neglected to mention rural Finland and its dialects in my previous writing. I agree that a CEO is allowed to have a funny brogue and that it may not affect his or her authority, but it does affect the way the CEO is approached. But I digress... You prove my point by amusing yourself in the expense of people from Helsinki. This supports my finding that Finns are very separatist and unprepared to let other finnish dialects apart from their own go unnoticed. This applies everywhere in Finland, I just happened to use an example closest to me (East Helsinki). Personally, I have noted, that outside of my home town Helsinki I am greeted with animosity. As I served in the military in eastern Finland a few years back, my classic grammar was clearly held against me even inpart by my commanding officers who were from the countryside. This of course is (and was) also a great source of humor in the hands, but it still carries my point: Finns are really homogenic and introvert and they face a challenge in coping with anyone different. Much like the Japanese.

There's a sound reason for this too, and proving this would be a good shocker to any American: taking a poll from all the finnish participants in this blog in regards to how old they were, when they saw their first black person. I'm from the capital and I have always lived approximately a mile away form the centre of town and I'm quite sure that I was around 12 years of age when I saw a black person for the first time in Finland.

Another indicator of Finnish separatism of course is the fact that, you Maria DI, happened to choose to set your opinion apart by accentuating your schooling (engineer, which I might add is quite trivial in regard to this matter) by adding DI next to yout name. Lester Burnham, Varatuomari, L.L.M, OTK, fil.yo. :-)

By chance I was just yesterday (awaken by this blog and the racism issues) thinking when did I at the first time see a black person in Finland. The truth is I can't remember. This again must mean that it wasn't that extraordinary event for me after all, even though I come from a very small and isolated village located in the countryside of Eastern Finland. My parents don't have much formal education but they seem to have had a lot of common sense since they didn't go pointing "oh look, there is a black man! oh, my goodness.."

I have good and bad experiences of people representing other nationalities, and I think that no single person is good or bad as such, but there may be deep cultural differences that effectively hinder friendships from evolving. Especially attitudes towards women are such a thing. When I would like to be friendly and offer tourist guidance & insight to Finnish culture, I find that male foreigners are only interested in me as a sex object or a girl-friend. I'm really not that good looking, so I have to take that as a cultural-born attitude that females can not be considered neutral human beings. When I have told that we can be friends, acquintances or nothing at all, these very same persons having said how separated they feel and how they would like to get to know Finnish people choose the nothing at all. I would call the end result a self-imposed isolation, caused by their own lack of attitude adjustment. Sad but true. When I go abroad my first priority isn't hitting on local males but trying to create and keep up friendship networks. This attitude might help visitors in Finland as well, since Finnish females find aggressive courtship from random men very annoying.

Finnish women are the most beautiful in the world. Most people probably aren't that aggressive in their own countries but around Finnish women it is more difficult since they are just perfect. Even average Finnish women are astoundingly beautiful. They look even better than Swedish or Norwegian women who are known all over the world for their beauty. Finnish women look slightly exotic for some reason. I think their faces are a little wider perhaps and they have perfect cheekbones. Maybe it's their eyes. I am not certain what makes Finnish women look so much better than any other women in the world. The only other women who come close are the Estonians.

Oh, I think it is true that the Finnish women are the most beautiful and also that my wife is the most beautiful Finn.

I wrote a novel that is set in Finland and is a love story about meeting her. It is called Temping and will come out in September from Black Heron Press in Seattle.

I was a confirmed bachelor until I went to Finland.

Also, I am sorry I got the statistics wrong in terms of the numbers of people going to Finnish vs. American universities. You see these statistics in different places and the numbers do vary. I wonder if sometimes they count or don't count community colleges which are somewhat like the amattikorkeakoulu in Finland.

Thanks for checking my math!!

There was some talk about Hesburger :) I have not seen any Taco Bell fast food restaurants in Finland. It was my favority place in the United States of America. It is even better than Hesburger ;)

It has been interesting to follow these pages. I think we should send a similar team from Finland to explore the world. Keep up the good work and enjoy Funland!

> Indeed if you follow the discussion
> in the Finnish financial forums you
> will see how there is no good and
> proper corporate governance whatsoever
> at the Finnish companies.

Hmm - really?

> Insider dealing is the habit of
> the country and local govermental
> bodies do not supervise the companies
> at all. If I recall right the
> Finnish state has never sued any
> bigger companies for tax frauds.
> It is hardly believable that no
> company cheat or try to cheat when
> it comes to taxes. This is only
> possible in the country where
> "big brothers" are close enough
> each others. Two major parties SDP
> and Kokoomus have shared all the
> major seats at govermental bodies.
> Also the same parties get the
> most contributions from the
> Finnish corporates. If you study
> more detailed the Finnish wonder
> you will see similarities to former
> Japan wonder with huge corruption.

A visit to the Web site of the
Heritage Foundation's and a glance at
the "2005 Index of Economic Freedom"
(click the link below for the page
about Finland) list seems to tell
a slightly different story.

http://tinyurl.com/a76v2

"Finland has earned first place in
the World Economic Forum's 2003-2004
Global Competitiveness Report.
The government has been
implementing reforms, including
slight reductions in the corporate
income and capital income tax
rates. According to the Economist
Intelligence Unit, the government
believes that further cuts are necessary
in order to maintain the competitiveness
of Finnish companies and
increase employment incentives. Among
other changes is a pension reform
package, to be phased in starting in
2005, that reduces entitlements
and encourages older workers to stay
in the workforce longer."

"Finland welcomes foreign investment,
and few restrictions remain in
effect. Foreign investments do not
require prior approval. According to
the International Monetary Fund,
however, "Acquisition of shares giving
at least one-third of the voting rights
in a Finnish defense enterprise to a
single foreign owner requires
prior confirmation by the Ministry
of Defense...." Non-European Economic
Area investors must apply for a
license to invest in a number of
monitored industries, including
national security-related sectors,
banking and insurance, mining,
travel agencies, and
restaurants. Restrictions on the
purchase of land apply only
to non-residents purchasing land in
the Aaland Islands for
recreational purposes or
secondary residences. There are no
exchange controls and no restrictions
on current transfers or repatriation
of profits, and both residents
and non-residents may hold foreign
exchange accounts."

"Private property is safe. The
Economist Intelligence Unit reports
that "contractual obligations, for
both government and business, are
strictly honored in Finland. The
quality of the judiciary and the
civil service is generally high." There
is no history of government
expropriation."

"Finland maintains an open and
transparent regulatory structure.
The conduct of business, especially
for non-European Economic Area residents
or companies, is subject to some
legal requirements."

Okay guys.. I get the picture. Thanks for the flattering comments on the beauty of Finnish women. I still think I'm right about this and in general male visitors are actually missing the bigger picture by allowing themselves to get lured by the cheekbones or something, and especially by showing it within the first 10 minutes.

Fair enough. There can't be any love without deep and real friendship.

Girl:

By chance I was just yesterday (awaken by this blog and the racism issues) thinking when did I at the first time see a black person in Finland. The truth is I can't remember"

Girl, you need to watch the TV more. On TV, channel 2, reading the news for young people (?) in perfect Finnish. A handsome young man.

""80% of finns are members of the lutheran church ie. 4 out of 5 finns are devoted christians. God fearing people etc."

Translation for foreigners: Pekka is just joking. (Or if he is not, he lives in a dream world. Finland is one of the most secular countries you can find.) "

90% percent of Finnish young ppl go to the confirmation school. This is the decision of the parents. Make your conclusions. We surely don't want to be called pagans, speak for yourself man.

Hello to everybody and a few comments.

Robert you called our language obtuse which I find rather insulting, especially coming from an American since you people seem to be unable to even speak English properly, otherwise it has been a quite fun to read your diary.

Some one mentioned that they are going to forbid smoking in pubs. I say hell no! I am not going to go outside to have smoke when I am having a beer at my local pub! That would be insanity!

About religion, most of the Finns are member of church and it is just a habit. One could even say that Finns a christians who do not believe in god. I am not a member of any religion or church although most of my friends and acquaintances are members of church but they are not religious in any way, not one of them goes to church, ever.

I hope to see some photos from my hometown, Oulu. And why do I want to see photos from Oulu? Well lets just say that I would like to see which part you of Oulu you find photographic. btw. I do not live in Oulu anymore.

ps. If you are still in Oulu go to reggae-bar, Never grow old that is, and have a few beers in the midnight sun. It is a nice place even when you do not like reggae music and I sure do not like reggae ;)

Cheers!

"90% percent of Finnish young ppl go to the confirmation school. This is the decision of the parents."

It is not a decision of the parent, but solely the kid's decision. Most kids go to confirmation camps because it's "cool" to hang out with other kids and they would feel left out otherwise. When I was in confirmation age, all my friends went to confirmation school or camp only because of the monetary benefits: they received (as almost all kids do) lots of cash and other valuable gifts from their families and relatives.

There are also secular and rational alternatives to religious confirmation camps and many kids and parents choose those instead. That way the kids don't miss the experience and feel left out, but they avoid religious brainwashing.

"I have not seen any Taco Bell fast food restaurants in Finland. It was my favority place in the United States of America. It is even better than Hesburger ;)"

Sometimes they sell burrito-like things in Hesburgers. You can also make them yourselves, ingredients can be bought from any shop in the world.
But no mexican-style hot burritos available even in bars that call themselves mexican.

"For the first try. I would claim that if you're motivated to get in an university, eventually you will pass even thought it might need a few attempts."

Incredible waste of money and peoples lives (3-4 years of just sitting there, doing nothing). Would be hugely cheaper to take all in. Then people would actually need to study in uni, too, as there would be a shortage of work-places.

"Finland banned smoking in the workplace several years ago, and smoking in restaurants and bars is soon to be banned as well. The results in terms of improved health have been dramatic."

Alas, smoking has not decreased much over the years.

"Tampere Yliopisto where I worked the students put their expensive winter coats in an open area where they left them while they attended classes. They were left sometimes for the whole day and no one ever stole them!"

Theres cameras.

"One of the reasons for unemployment is that traditional factory work has almost completely disappeared from this country

Most of the unemployed people don't have enough skilss for today's jobs."

Theres no training available at all. The employment offices force people go to all kinds of totally useless classes (this is how i write a cv, this is how i use the computer etc. - been to seveal myself - with teachers usually being worse in those things than the students, (that is very usual in other finnish schools too, no matter what they say) and forced slave employment usually for 6 months or so, for no pay, but any "real" training is not provided, no matter how often you ask.

"It is difficult to get an apartment in larger cities like Helsinki and it may be specially difficult for young people leaving their homes and parents. But in smaller cities this problems is very small."

It is very, very easy. Have money, get one with a single phone call. But people do not have the money to pay the 3 month rent they would need to pay. In smaller cities too there are lots of homeless but towns often do not reveal the real figures. Come winter, homeless die, so theres less of a problem again.
Also the writer claimed theres no families that are homeless - well, the children are taken away by the social services, obviously, if the parents are not liked and given money to get a flat- usually it is so that men are homeless because the social services (or women who work there) prefer to give money to women, not to men, not many homeless women in finland because of that.

"About religion, most of the Finns are member of church and it is just a habit. One could even say that Finns a christians who do not believe in god."

According to inquiries most people in Finland actually do believe in God. There are 5M + inhabitants here. Your opinion represents merely ~ 1/50000 % of the opinions. So please do not generalize what you don't know.

"According to inquiries most people in Finland actually do believe in God."

It should be noted that there are certain parts of the country where people are more religious, and in big cities highly educated and younger people seldom are. I personally know only one or two persons who actually believe in god, apart from them, none of my family, relatives, friends or collagues believe in god, although some of them are members of the church for a habit.

"I personally know only one or two persons who actually believe in god, apart from them, none of my family, relatives, friends or collagues believe in god, although some of them are members of the church for a habit.
"

And which is nothing to be proud of.

I do believe in God, but I do it in my own way. I don't go to church on every sunday, not even every year, but it doesn't mean that I don't believe in God at all. I don't go around and tell people that I believe in God. It's a personal and private thing and if you go and ask from my friends wether I believe in God or not, they would probably say that I don't. In my opinion many Finns are just like me.

Do others what you want to be done for yourself. Simple as that.

"none of my family, relatives, friends or collagues believe in god, although some of them are members of the church for a habit."

"And which is nothing to be proud of."

If you mean that it's nothing to be proud of that people are members of the church although they don't believe in god, I agree. They're wasting their money and helping the church to use them as a lobbying tool.

But I'm very proud of the fact that they base their lifes and world views on rational thinking and scientific facts instead of religious and superstitious mumbo-jumbo fairy tales.

"But I'm very proud of the fact that they base their lifes and world views on rational thinking and scientific facts instead of religious and superstitious mumbo-jumbo fairy tales."

Well, Christianity- belief in forgiveness and in the resurrection of Christ as a historical fact - is the largest of the religions and the basis of the cultures in almost every country in the Western world. You have the God given right to not to believe in what we others do.

"Well, Christianity- belief in forgiveness"

I don't need religions to be able to forgive and to do charity. As a matter of fact, it seems that many religious people don't have much time for charity as they're too busy worshipping their god and doing other psychodrama. And I've noticed that their charity is often more like business: they expect to get rewarded by their god in heaven.

"in the resurrection of Christ as a historical fact"

"Resurrection" of christ as a historical fact? It's a fairy tale, not a historical fact.

""in the resurrection of Christ as a historical fact""

""Resurrection" of christ as a historical fact? It's a fairy tale, not a historical fact."

Free quote, st. paul:

"If the Christ has not been risen from the dead, lets eat and drink because tomorrow we die."

Why don't the reporters visit Lapland? Any foreigner spending so much time in Finland MUST visit Lapland! Welcome! The sun already shines here all night long...

"Why don't the reporters visit Lapland? Any foreigner spending so much time in Finland MUST visit Lapland! Welcome! The sun already shines here all night long..."

I guess they want to write about places in Finland that aren't visited very often by foreigners, unlike Lapland and the capital area where most foreign people and tourists tend to visit and that are usually the only thing mentioned about Finland.

I think Kiry olsen is referring to the Christian Colleges what are "kristillinen kansanopisto". A technical college should be referred to as a "polytechńic". Most polytechnics used to be "opisto" before. An "opisto"is like a college in the sense that it prepares for university tests, but does not give a "degree" as such. The Finnish education system has been revamped recently quite much - the polytechnics are a "new" thing, some 10 years old.

But in a "kristillinen kansanopisto" you would learn languages for example, but not so much theology really. They used to be quite popular esp. in the early part of the century, and theres quite a few still running. Both 'christian' and not so denominational.

"Maybe this is nitpicking, but Oulu certainly isn't in Central Finland"

I think it's very close to the center of Finland, so it's clearly in Central Finland.

", but in Northern Finland"

If you say it's in Northern Finland, then I could say it's in Southern Finland.

Hesburger and McDonalds suck. Get some real food like meatballs and smashed potatoes!

are the finnish meatballs similar or same to the famous swedish variety?

"are the finnish meatballs similar or same to the famous swedish variety?"

No, they are better.. ;-) Seriously, they are very much alike.

Did anyone care to inform You that in Finland all the enterprises and companies and every little firm have to pay CHURCH TAX whether they want to or not. The tax is something in between one and two per cent depending on the city or town or county your company's registrated in.

Heli: so what? Almost everybody uses church services more or less.
And I prefer McD over Hes anyday... but meatballs, brown sauce and mashed potatoes, well mmmmmmmmmm.
*
And stop moaning against every good point that the reporters find out! Of course Finland is not perfect! Of course there are things that could be better! Is that a reason to post here and say:
"Oh Robert, you are wrong when you say XXX, because in MY PERSONAL experience, it just sucked big time and so that particular thing in Finland must suck for EVERYONE AND ANYONE always!"

"nd so that particular thing in Finland must suck"

They somehow even managed to visit a pub where people would say positive things about Finland.
In reality they certainly do not do that unless it is one of those upscale pubs where the better people go.

My mother gave me her Finnish meatball recipe but when I made a batch, my meatballs were only average while hers were delicious. Years later, I saw her making the meatballs. She put strips of bacon in the oven to get crispy and then she mixed them in with the ground beef. I caught her doing that and then she admitted she didn't give me the entire recipe originally.

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