Finland Diary

Introduction to Finland Diary

Finland just might be the world's most interesting country that Americans know least about. It has the best school system in the world, some of the most liberated women (the president is female), more cell phones per capita than anyone else, one of the world's best high-tech companies (Nokia), remarkable information technology of many kinds, great music from rock and jazz to classical. The Finns are proud of their generous welfare state, which provides, among much else, free health care and free education at every level.

Finland is quite big, the size of Kansas and Iowa combined, but sparsely populated -- 5.2 million souls, or about 10 percent smaller than metropolitan Washington, D.C. For three weeks, Lucian Perkins and I will be traveling around the country to try to figure it out. Lucian takes pictures and occasionally writes about what he sees; I will concentrate on words. We will try to figure out how the Finns have been so successful in so many different ways and why Finland appears to be one of the most modern and most adaptable societies anywhere. We'll also see if we can find some chinks in their armor, on the old but reliable theory that nothing is perfect.

We will add something to this Finland Diary every day. We'll also produce stories that will appear here and in the Washington Post newspaper starting on Tuesday, May 24. And we hope to hear from readers as we travel and talk to Finns. Please post your questions, comments and recommendations here, or send them to us in our official back-channel: finlanddiary@washingtonpost.com. We'll respond whenever we can.

To introduce Finland, I've conducted an e-mail interview with Pekka Himanen, 31, a young philosopher who has become quite famous in Finland, and quite well known in the U.S. for his work at Stanford and the University of California. His books have been published in 20 languages. They include The Information Society and the Welfare State: The Finnish Model, co-written with Manuel Castells, a renowned, Spanish-born sociologist of the information age who is now a professor at the University of Southern California. Their book is readily available, published by Oxford University Press. No one Finn can speak for Finland, of course, but Himanen seems like a good representative of the burgeoning new information-age intelligentsia that has remade Finland in the last generation.

--Robert G. Kaiser

Q. The World Economic Forum has ranked Finland's as the most competitive economy in the world. Finnish education probably is the best anywhere, judged by results of comparative tests given to students in many countries. You Finns have more cell phones per capita than any other people on Earth.You are making extensive use of the Internet, and are among the most computer-literate nations. Nokia and Linux are both Finnish inventions. You have a wonderful system of musical education that has produced an inordinate number of world-class musicians, singers and conductors in the classical field, as well as an impressive crop of jazz and rock performers.
So what's going on in Finland? Why are you doing so well--especially given the fact that just 50 years ago, you were a poor and quite backward nation?

Finnish author and philosopher Pekka Himanen welcomes guests in his Helsinki apartment. (Lucian Perkins - The Washington Post)
View Enlarged Photo

A. The three things that people should know about the modern Finland are Nokia, Linux, and HIM [the Finnish "Love Metal" rock band, most of whose songs are in English, and whose Web site can be found at http://www.heartagram.com]. They sum up the Finnish change. Nokia mobile phones are part of the conscious policy of investing in innovation. Finland invests more as a percentage of GDP to research and development than the United States. But Linux tells an important difference: The Finnish idea is to be inclusive so that development benefits all and not only few.

Linux is a free operating system that anyone can use. It's very close to the idea behind our welfare state: free and high-quality education available for everyone so that everyone has equal opportunities in life. Finnish IT success and the education/health systems were developed hand in hand so that there would be a virtuous cycle between them: good education producing more innovators whose success makes it possible to fund the welfare state. HIM is a story about our cultural identity. People should listen to their "Funeral of Hearts" to get a sense of Finnish identity. [You can hear an excerpt from it here, and also read the song's lyrics: http://www.heartagram.com/music]. We have a history of suffering through winters and you can hear both melancholy in their music as well as special Finnish energy. All of these successes from IT to music have been important for forming a new Finnish cultural identity: not a poor country anymore but a creative leader in many fields.

Q. Finnish women seem to be more fully liberated than even American women, or any others. Even the elected president of Finland is a woman. Why?

A. The main idea is equal opportunities: women don't have to choose between having children and work. Society should make this possible, which it does through a universal right to cheap child care run by college-level educated people. The long maternal leaves plus the child care available to everyone as a right usually surprises my many foreign friends. But it's good to notice that it's not only women who have accomplished this. Finnish men have supported this. They are strong enough to have strong women as their partners.

Q. The rich countries of "old Europe" and North America have chronic problems with their educational systems, but Finland's seems to be working beautifully. Why is Finland so good at educating its young people?

A. In Finland, the link between the quality of education and poverty was realized quite early. In the late 19th century Finland was a very poor country with very little education. And it was poor precisely because of the lack of education. The development of Finland has come through investing in the education system.

Of course, the absolute amounts invested in a system don't tell you much. For example, Finland's health care system absorbs 7% of our GDP [gross domestic product, the total economy], whereas in America health care costs 14% of GDP. The U.S. has different systems for the poor and everyone else, and they are not efficient. In education the key isn't how much is invested, it's the people. The high quality of Finnish education depends on the high quality of Finnish teachers. You need to have a college-level degree to run a kindergarten. You need a masters-level degree to teach at a primary school. Many of the best students want to be teachers. This is linked to the fact that we really believe we live in an information age, so it is respected to be in such a key information profession as teaching.

Q. When Finns talk among themselves, do they discuss the relative strengths of their society compared to others? How do they explain their successes to each other?

A. Generally we don't talk about such things.

Q. Nokia has been one of the most creative and successful companies anywhere in the last decade. It has also become by far the most important company in the Finnish economy. What are the secrets of its success? Why did Finland turn out to be the natural home for cell phones?

A. It's not a coincidence that Finland became the home of mobile phone revolution. But it's not what you usually hear: that because we have a cold winter and you have nothing else to do, or that because it's so difficult for the Finns to communicate otherwise! It's a combination. The high level of investment in technological research and development, which has been the government's policy since the early 80s. And, the nonhierarchical structure of Finnish companies like Nokia. This makes these companies more dynamic to act against their more hierarchical competitors.

Q. Linux, the free alternative to Windows, was invented by a Finn, Linus Torvalds. Was that a coincidence? Is there something particularly Finnish about Linux?

A. Linus [Torvalds] is not an exception. The Internet Relay Chat was invented by a Finn, the first graphical Web browser (before Netscape and Mosaic) was developed by Finns, etc. It's the education system. Studying at the Finnish universities is free and you also get a monthly student grant. So you don't have immediate pressures to just graduate and guarantee a safe career. Linus and others have space for playing with ideas and this is seen as an important feature of the academic life in Finland. It took Linus eight years as a student at the Helsinki University to get his master's degree, but he created Linux!

Q. Some Finns drink a lot of vodka; Finnish men have a high suicide rate. Unemployment is higher in Finland than in the U.S. Is the rosy picture of successful Finland misleading? What's wrong with Finland?

A. This is the darker side of our history. As I said, we have a history of suffering. Think about Finland where it can get -30 degrees Celsius [22 below zero Fahrenheit] in the winter. And think of it before modern technology. It was a real challenge to get through the winters. You can easily forget that when you visit Finland at this time of year when people are happy bathing in the sun in the summer.

Suffering creates both the positive capacity of empathizing with the suffering of others, which is the basis of ethics and caring--and the Finnish welfare state. But it can also turn into self-destructive melancholy. We still have this but as I said, Finland is transforming greatly through the new culture generated by thing like Nokia, Linux, and HIM.

Q. And a related question: Linus Torvalds now lives and works in the U.S. You yourself spent a couple of years in California in your 20s, in Berkeley. Why is America so attractive to talented young Finns like you and Torvalds? Do we have something Finland lacks?

A. Of course. Finland doesn't have the same kind of multicultural space where people from very different backgrounds can interact. And multiculturalism is also important for creativity, as one can see in Silicon Valley. Also, Finnish society doesn't incite entrepreneurial behavior as much as American society does. I enjoyed my American time very much and I think that most Europeans who criticize America do so because they haven't really seen it. For me, the main reason to go to America, however, was paradoxically to work with my colleague Manuel Castells who had moved there from Spain!

Q. Finland has a welfare state; all education and medical care are free, pensions are quite generous, and a spirit of egalitarianism appears to be strong. Many other European countries are coming to realize that their welfare states are too generous--they can't really afford them. What about Finland? Do you face the now-common demographic crisis confronted by so many other Europeans, an aging population and an insufficient number of younger workers to support the welfare state?

A. Finland is facing this challenge. But it's possible to solve. We introduced the concept of "a virtuous cycle" in my book with Castells. If we are able to expand the kind of creativity that we've seen with Nokia or HIM, then we get enough income to continue to fund the welfare state, which provides a basis for getting new innovators on a socially sustainable basis. Another thing is to learn from America: Finland needs to open its borders more for people and encourage an entrepreneurial culture.

Q. Taxes in Finland are high--they take about 45 percent of your gross domestic product (the comparable U.S. figure is just over 25 percent). A gallon of gas costs about $5.50 in Finland. How do Finns feel about paying high taxes? Do Finns, like Americans, dream of getting rich? Do rich Finns live like rich Americans, in big houses with servants and such? Do you have Finnish conservatives who think their government is too big, taxes them too much, and restricts their freedom?

A. It's interesting that when the Finns are asked what are the most important things for the government to do, health and education rank highest. Finnish tax rates are quite high, but not the highest in Europe. As long as Finns feel they get a good return on their tax Euros in terms of public services, they are willing to pay. They generally see taxes as a fair price to pay for a society that provides equal opportunities, and because everyone benefits directly from our public services. Everyone has been educated in public schools and universities. Everyone has used the public health services. These aren't just services for the poor. If you don't allow your democratically-elected government to tax the economy to provide equal opportunities in life for everyone, no one else can do it. But comparing tax bites as a percentage of GDP is misleading. To compare yourselves to Finland, Americans should add to the 25% you pay in taxes all the costs of health insurance and health care, higher education, savings for pensions and so on--in other words, all the expenses that Finns don't have to pay, once they've paid their taxes.

Finns want to get rich for the same reasons other people do--to be wealthy. But the difference between the richest Finns and he poorest is not as big as elsewhere. Finns wouldn't consider it fare if, as in the U.S., the CEO earned 350 times more than the factory worker. The rich don't need to move into gated communities. Their children will go to school with people from very different social backgrounds, to they don't become a totally isolated elite.

Decreasing taxes comes much lower in priorities here. Even the Finnish "Republicans" don't run for a radical tax cut, although naturally there are politicians who think that the government is too big. In the surveys, "getting rich" is not among the highest priorities for the Finns. Usually people talk more about health and family as the most important things in life.

Q. What or who moves Finns emotionally? Does the society allow for emotional reactions to individuals, ideas, fashions, forms of art or popular culture?

A. Mostly Finns are moved by the same things as people everywhere: love, etc. But if we think about cultural things then the Finns continue to be very much moved by music. The Finnish Top 10 has always music made in Finnish and that is very Finnish in its nature. It's a marriage of the Finnish language and our mentality. Finns can also get very emotional hearing the music of Sibelius, our greatest classical music composer (especially the Finlandia hymn). A surprising thing -- keeping in mind that many people abroad have the impression that the Finns don't express their emotions--is that tango is very popular in Finland. Argentina meets the stiff Nordic people there. On a larger scale, things that are linked to the national identity can move people a lot: for example, when Finland won the ice-hockey world championship in 1995, hundreds of thousands gathered to celebrate in the streets of Helsinki. People still sing the songs that are still associated with the victory. Often, Finnish reality is very different from the stereotypes that people have about the Finns.

Q. American society is divided on a number of contentious issues. Can you tell us briefly what the situation is in Finland in regard to:

* Abortion?

A. The Finnish view is that women have a right to decide on their bodies. There's no controversy on abortion.

* Euthanasia?

A. Passive euthanasia--that is, not keeping people alive hopelessly--would be acceptable to many Finns. Active euthanasia would be more divisive.

* Prayer in schools, and the separation of church and state generally? Does religion play any role in public life?

A. No prayer in school. Finnish politicians don't refer to religion. You would never hear a Finnish politician say "God bless Finland." Finns want these things to be separated.

*The teaching of evolution or creationism in the schools?

A. All schools teach the evolution theory, the Christian theory of creation is naturally also taught but not as an alternative to science but rather as an allegorical story.

* Gay marriage, and gay soldiers in your military?

A. Gays can marry but not in the church. They don't yet have all the same rights as heterosexuals do. No issue on gay soldiers.

* The death penalty?

A. Finland is strongly against death penalty, which is not part of our system.

* Gun control? Can citizens own rifles? Pistols?

A. We don't think that owning a gun is a constitutional right or that it would have something to do with individual's freedom. The Finnish thinking is that the number of guns is linked to having a more violent society. But you can own guns on certain conditions, for example, for hunting, which is quite popular in the countryside.

* Immigration. Do you have immigration? From where? How are immigrants treated? Do foreigners seek to become citizens of Finland? Is that possible?

A. We have immigration in relatively small numbers so compared to the US Finland is a very homogeneous society, which I think is a limitation. Immigrants can become citizens of Finland but here our attitudes should get much more open.

We will be meeting Himanen in Helsinki and look forward to further exchanges with him. We may ask him to answer another round of questions at the end of our trip, based on what we see and hear in Finland.
--Robert G. Kaiser

By Robert G. Kaiser | May 23, 2005; 10:00 AM ET | Category: Culture
Next: Modest Finland

Comments

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Very interesting discussion.

Posted by: cecile Ruel | May 23, 2005 01:12 PM

In November 2001, I had the opportunity to work in Lahti and spend a weekend in Helsinki. I was truly blown away by the country of Finland and its people. Helsinki was a wonderful city to just walk and walk. All the travel books that said (warned) that Finns are a little cold and reserved were so wrong. Everyone I interacted with - from the people I was working with to store clerks - were warm and helpful even if we only shared about eight common words.

I hope to go back again some day (although in the summer next time!).

Posted by: Joe | May 23, 2005 01:36 PM

Good luck on your trip! As you may find out (emails, comments), finns are VERY interested in what others think of them. Having lived in Finland for 10 years (ages 10-19), and with my family still living there, I'm always curious to see what finns say about themselves.

I think the changes in Finland are much more drastic than Prof. Himanen described in his initial email Q&A, but I'll be interested to read your blog entries and stories.

Hyvaa matkaa!

Posted by: Mikko | May 23, 2005 01:40 PM

I'M A FINNISH NAMED PERSON FROM MINNESOTA, WISH I WOULD HAVE LEARNED MORE ABOUT THE FINNISH PEOPLE WHEN I WAS GROWING UP. MY GRANDPARENTS CAME FROM FINLAND WAY BACK. ANYWAYS IM 100% BLOODED FINN, AND PROUD OF IT.
THANKS TERRY E. RYTKONEN

Posted by: TERRY E RYTKONEN | May 23, 2005 01:43 PM

Making comparisons between this country and Finland is an exercise of very limited utility. Like comparing Vermont and California.

Posted by: kurosawaguy | May 23, 2005 01:53 PM

What an excellent first chapter in your blog. As a Finnish citizen permanently living in the US, your first arcticle was probably the best intro to Finland I've read anywhere.

For once a story about Finland without the "obligatory" reference to the wife carrying competition :)

However, to truly understand the Finnish, you have to explore our very difficult struggle during World War II, and the way Finland sacrificed and rebuilt itself after the war. Prior to the war Finland was a very low tech, poor and illiterate country. It's only after the war Finland started its development into one of the wealthiest countries in Europe.

Our achievements in sports (Paavo Nurmi, Mika Hakkinen, ski jumping) are a great sense of pride and also played a major part of putting Finland in the world map before and after World War II. There was a time when Finland took more Olympic gold medals in wrestling and (middle) distance running than other countries combined. For a poor, backwards, small country in the outer regions of Europe, this was about the only way to make our mark. It was as if David beat several Goliaths, repeatedly every four years.

Posted by: Tero Paananen | May 23, 2005 02:13 PM

I enjoyed reading Prof. Himanen's introduction to this Journey. Having lived in USA -as a born, raise and educated Finn- now close to 15 years, I often have difficulties summarizing these areas. Job well done! I also look forward following your journey through Finland, especially my native Lapland.

Posted by: Koikkalainen | May 23, 2005 02:13 PM

Keep up the good reporting, Greel!

Posted by: Pelican | May 23, 2005 02:40 PM

Made a trip to Finland last December for a retreat, had a few days to explore. Nearly everyone spoke English and very easy to talk to. Stayed in a hostle in Helsiniki at first then was invited to stay at an apartment of a friend of mine there.

There is such a sincere peaceful energy to the place, was a very cool trip.

Posted by: Darrin | May 23, 2005 02:43 PM

Please report on the status of the indigenous peoples, especially the Sami. I know that historically they have been treated rather shabbily in Sweden, but have not heard anything about those in Finland. Is their right to retain their language, culture and traditional land respected?

Posted by: kurosawaguy | May 23, 2005 02:48 PM

I enjoy very much readnig your Finland Diary in washingtonpost.com, and I am excited to hear that you will post story on this every week.

I am not a Finn but have quite a few of Finnish friends, as I am fascinated by the people and the culture. The Finns are honest, nice, and have an excellent sense of humor!:)

A little story to share: May 1st is the International Labor Day and the Finns have this huge celebration called Vappu (Wappu). Whoever has graduated from high school will wear those hats 6pm sharp on Vappu's Eve. So it's quite a scenary and party in Finland--you will see hundreds of Finns drinking on streets with those funny white hats on:) So this year, my Finnish friends in Boston came up with this funny idea of putting the hat on the duck statues at Boston Common. I would like to submit the photo if interested.

There's also an article about Finnish culture that I would like to submit but the email (finlanddiary@washingtonpost.com) is not working. Please check and let me know if there's an alternative email address to comment.

Posted by: Sue | May 23, 2005 02:51 PM

You two seem to have a knack for taking fascinating journeys together.

How long did it take for you or you two to come up with the idea for this trip? How long has it been in the works? How much research did you or other members on staff at the Post put into the trip? How planned is your trip? How much time have you alloted for serendipity?

Will you be doing some compare/contrast reporting with lifestyles/social conditions/government in Finland vs. U.S.? (Is it as one poster shared..that comparing the two countries is of very limited utility, like comparing Vermont and California?)

I hope your reporting, Bob, will be thought-provoking, hopefully on a daily basis. I recall your trip to the Ohio delegation at the Republican convention. I thought it not as strong a piece as your mapcap dash to find a New York City fireman to interview. In hindsight, Ohio played a quite important role on election night.

I am curious whether Finland has a gastarbeiter "problem" like Germany? Is Finland doing anything interesting in the high tech biosciences? Are they doing any research in the many realms of high tech that may be considered "bleeding edge" given the high level of credentials required of their teachers, as explained in your inital reporting today?

I really hope that "ol' Tex" Lucian will deliver some great photos, as he did for the Republican/Democratic conventions last year.

This jaunt of yours shall certainly enliven connecting to the Post electronically for the next three weeks--for me at least!
Tack sa mycket.

Posted by: U.S. Svenska flicka | May 23, 2005 02:55 PM

I lived in Finland for 7 years. Finland has the least corrption among officials compared to all countries of the worls. Life could be a bit expensive at first glance, but housing is affordable and that usually balanced the budget well. The Finns struck me initially as very isolationists and cold, this changed after few months once I began to understand Finland better. I realized that the Finns are among the most honest personalities in the world. I am proud of the time spent there and will always treasure the memories and the wonderful friends. Have a wonderful trip and don't let the shyness of the Finns be a barrier, if you manage to break it you will see how warm hearted they really are. If you are offered KoskenKorva or Salmiakki, make sure you have a ride home :)

Posted by: Talal | May 23, 2005 02:57 PM

Very interesting introduction. I'm looking forward to future entries.

Posted by: Cameron | May 23, 2005 03:03 PM

Ah, going to Finland at this time of year - your job is a nice one. Having travelled to Finland many times for business, I can say that I love it. Two points about the article however: religion does not play a huge role in Finnish life anyway, so it is not terribly enlightening to learn that there is a separation of politics/religion. That is not true in America, so the comparison is meaningless.

Second, some Finns do not have the broadest view toward foreigners, I have found. And it is easy to achieve the best education in the world when you don't have to cater to immigrants. It is totally homogeneous, as the article correctly points out.

Hopefully you visit Oulu and Tampere - two very different places (and cultures) compared to Helsinki.

And honest? Let me tell you a short story. While shopping in Hki, I lost my wallet fat with American bucks in it, and plenty o' Euros. After much panicking and a frantic call to my wife back in the States for no apparant reason, I retraced my steps and remembered the last place I took out my wallet - the jam and gift store on the other side of town. The owner had closed up, but hearing that I was there she rushed back and returned my wallet. She had been calling every hotel in Hki looking for me. Nice, huh?

Posted by: harry | May 23, 2005 03:32 PM

I have been a Finnophile ever since a summer ('87) spent there as an exchange student with the Törmänens of Kempele (near Oulu). It's a beautiful country. It is VERY homogenous, and this does make it very different from the US--the "Vermont vs. California" comparison is apt. Still, I remember it fondly and often.

Posted by: Mike | May 23, 2005 03:43 PM

Wonderful beginning to what i'm certain will be a fascinating diary!
My Finnish Grandmother eloped with my French/Mohawk Grandfather, much to her parents' chagrin, and i have cousins among the Saami. i hope your coverage will include the lives of the Saami within Finland's borders: not only the prejudice and stereotyping they endure, but also their strong and vibrant culture.

Posted by: Karen | May 23, 2005 04:47 PM

Bravo! Your jaunts around the world are easily one of the most interesting features to read (and look at) in one of the world's most interesting papers.

As to Finnish education, I recommend visiting Helsingin Suomalainen Yhteiskoulu (http://www.syk.edu.hel.fi/), a high school in Helsinki that features the International Bacceloreate (IB) program. Here is where you will meet dozens of bright young Finns that beat the pants off almost all others in those OECD educational studies -- but that's not all that you will notice. Visit the cafeteria of this elite school and you'll see that there is only one dish on the menu: soup. It's not that the Finns are poor or "boring." It's just, well, smart and practical: healthy, cheap, warm and tasty. What else do you need? Second thing you'll notice: not one overweight (or even unattractive) kid in the school of hundreds. Not one. The IB coordinator herself is one of those countless impossibly bright, attractive young Finns sipping soup with everyone else.

Also, you gotta try that Finnish reindeer meat. Love it.

So this doesn't turn into a total ***-kissing affair, I sampled some of that "HIM" music and found it needed salt. The professor really needs to listen to some Squirrel Nut Zippers. Fast. Also, what is wrong with this sentence: "Finns wouldn't consider it fare if, as in the U.S., the CEO earned 350 times more than the factory worker." Tsk, tsk.

Lastly, a recommendation for the world travellers' next stop: the most interesting place that people think they know but don't: Liverpool.

Posted by: Jerome | May 23, 2005 05:12 PM

I loved reading your Finnish Diary. I am a second generation Finn - my parents both having been born in Finland. The only family that I now have live in Helsinki and Tampere - I live in Los Angeles. I smiled as I read your comments about the Finnish temperament, ingenuity and rather humble approach to business and life in general because they are so true. I see these qualities in myself and certainly in my cousins when I speak with them. I never took the time to admire these qualities in my parents who while in their twenties and still single with $25 in their pockets left Finland in 1929 for Canada and a better life. Sadly they lived through some of the toughest times in Finland especially in 1918 during the Finnish Civil War but they never lost their Finnish "sisu", a word known to every Finn. I am extremely proud of my heritage and I so appreciate your first hand reports of your days in Finland.

Posted by: Mirja Bishop | May 23, 2005 05:49 PM

As a Finn who has been living in the US with my American husband for the last 8 years,I thoroughly enjoyed your Finland Diary sofar.

I often am engaged in conversations with American friends who seem to have a hard time believing that any "government run" services might be efficient, modern and of equal or [gasp!] higher quality than something you would get on the private market. I really liked the fact that you pointed out that Finns actually do get a lot for their taxes, and that it is not always the amount of money that determnes the quality, but often the investment in education and people. I do think the comparison looking at what we in the US have to pay for insurance, health care, education, elderly care, child care etc was relevant and spot on!

One very essential part of our Finnish national identity that we are particularly proud of, and that I hope you will be blogging on, is that we have two official languages, Finnish and Swedish, and although only about 6% of the population considers Finnish-Swedish their first language, we generally take pride in knowing both languages and we treasure this cultural diversity. A good way to feel the pulse of how harmoniously our cultures blend would be to visit the plains of Ostrobotnia and report to us on the beautiful city of Vasa, the magnificent archipelagio and perhaps catch some of the concerts during the world famous Korsholm Music Festival, especially in the charming little village of Solf!

Thank you for your refreshingly open-minded reporting! I am very much looking forward to following your adventures.

Posted by: Marjo Aho | May 23, 2005 06:34 PM

After my first posting, and after reading several nice comments about the well balanced life in Finland, I would like to add that Finnish government also got many things to get better about. As a small busienss owner in USA, I find it amazing that someone can actually get off the ground with a small business in Finland. The lack of encouraging system, helping small companies become bigger (and providing additional jobs for people) is almost non-existing. Both of my parents (living in Finland) are business owners and I run a small company here in USA. We often compare things (taxes, etc), those daily things to business owners no matter where you live and operate. I could never imagine having to start up my operations in Finland after hearing about my parents experiences - this is mostly about the overwhelming taxation during the first few years. Facts I hear make me wonder how on earth companies ever get started in Finland ..... maybe this is where that *sisu* comes in play. I very much hope to read about small business owners and how they struggle with their first years of operation. Basically, if you can pull it off in Finland, you can pull it off anywhere ....

Posted by: Koikkalainen | May 23, 2005 07:12 PM

I would like to add a comment to the above question concerning the unemployment in Finland. The situation has not been like this always, quite on the contrary. One clear reason to this is that there used to be a very lively export trade with the Russias: clothes, machinery etc. In return we got gasoline, natural gas and so on. The downfall of Russia put this business into a temporary halt affecting many companies and creating unemployment in business areas which used to have a steady flow over the Eastern border. Much of the current unemployment is a result of this and as a reminder of this, the Russian goverment still owes a fairly large sum to Finland of the unpaid goods. As a ground level example of what we experienced in the industry (I used to work as an engineer) was that suddenly the former buyers simply ceased to exist and when we delivered the goods (machinery) they were left unopened and unprotected. Anyway, the unemployment has been getting smaller and hopefully continues to do so.

---

About the vodka; I don't have any statistic at hand but if we measure the consumption in pure alcohol it does not significantly differ from similar figures in Europe.

Back in the history Finland also had a Prohibition but when it was repealed the selling of alcohol was not totally liberated. Even today, you can buy beer but not vine or stronger beverage from a general store. As a layman, my wild guess is that the politics in this matter (similar with Sweden) has an unexamined psychological impact in this whole question.

Posted by: Risto Apajalahti | May 23, 2005 09:28 PM

---

About the vodka; I don't have any statistic at hand but if we measure the consumption in pure alcohol it does not significantly differ from similar figures in Europe.

Posted by: Risto Apajalahti | May 23, 2005 09:29 PM

Thank you. You really made my day. I wish you all the best from the sunny and warm Helsinki (25 C degrees).

In your articles you have found the modern Finnish spirit. Great work!

Posted by: Jukka Siukonen | May 24, 2005 03:47 AM

The e-mail adress isn't working, so I'll just post these comments up here:

I noticed a few errors in Pekka Himanens post. Of course not everyone
is an expert even on their own country.

Firstly, on prayer in schools: there is in fact quite alot of prayer
in schools, though I understand that this is becoming less so as
younger generations of teachers start work. There is mandatory
religious education in schools and often days are started with prayer
or religious singing. Wether or not children participate is decided by
the parents though participation is automatic and if children's
parents do not wish for children to participate they must take part in
special classes emphasising philosphy and different world views.

Participation in these classes is higher in the large cities and
propably zero due to peer pressure in rural areas. My friend is a
history teacher at a local highschool near Turku and he teaches a
class of four to five students these classes.

On guns: though I do not have a source to quote, apparently there are
more guns per capita in finland than in the united states, though this
may include all kinds of guns. I am sure there are fewer hand guns. It
is perfectly legal to own a hand gun if you belong to a gun club.
Anyone can join, I think the age limit is 16. Shotguns and rifles have
few restrictions, I'm not sure you even need a permit for a shotgun.

American gun laws are very strict compared to Finnish laws. Attitudes
in cities are quite anti-gun, though in the countryside guns are very
common.

There are some shootings every now and then, though 99% of the time
the people know each other. Most gun crime appears to take place in
rural areas or in people's homes.

Oh, and one more thing, on the welfare state. This is very contested
right now. An overwhelming number of Finns support the welfare state
and every political party claims to support it. However, the methods
vary, with the right wing parties claiming liberalization is the
answer and the left wing parties being more concervative on the issue,
wanting to atleast slow down the outsourcing of services. The
political mainstream however is quite homogenous with mostly
rhetorical and powerbase differences between left and right and real
life policy going in the same direction of greater liberalization.
This is exemplified by the fact that the last three governments have
been coalition governments with a broad political base.

Of course people's political views vary much more.

Just thought you might want to know.

Misha Dellinger, Turku

Posted by: Misha Dellinger | May 24, 2005 04:24 AM

I've been to Finland twice in the past three years, during the summer of course. It is a marvelous country with extraordinary people. I myself, marvel at the egalitarian ethos as compared to our winner takes all structure. The people are great and selfless, the sharp honesty can take some getting used to. All in all, I've always wondered of expatriot jobs there :)

Posted by: Bill | May 24, 2005 04:59 AM

Errr.... no religion?

Firstly, Finland has a State Church, or actually two. The Evengelic-Lutheran and the Greek Catholic (=Orthodox) churches. They have a right of taxation, meaning you "belong to church" = you pay automatically ~1,2% tax off your pay. Businesses also pay a "community tax" regardless of denomination, so the Jewish barber and the Moslem butcher as well as the Roman Catholic baker and the atheist barowner all pay "church tax" to the Lutheran and Orthodox coffers.

And what comes to religion in school; its 12 years of obligatory religion classes - depending on your denomination - parents can opt for "ethics" if they don't "belong to the Church" but theres no escape.

A contrast however to the USA; where everyone "goes to church" in Finland your average male goes to Church when he gets married and after he's dead. The attendance figures are maybe 10% whereas the "belong" figure is closer to 85%.

Posted by: Hank W. | May 24, 2005 05:36 AM

" its 12 years of obligatory religion classes"
But those classes are not confessional, or at least they should not be. They should not be worshipping but learning about religion.

But Hank is right, Finland has a state church, and it's quite integral part of our society.

Posted by: Markus | May 24, 2005 06:02 AM

On the immigration thing.

Finland has for the past hundred years or so been exporting people in search of a better livelihood, so one can compare Finland to countries like Iceland or Ireland rather than Germany, Sweden, UK let alone USA or Canada. Apples & oranges.

If we look into the statistics, as from the "Pocket Information 2001" by the Poulation Register Centre (theres a 2003 out as well)we can come up with a few breakdown numbers.

The amount of resident "foreiginers" i.e. people who are not citizens, is 1,8%.

Of these the largest group by citizenship is Russians, 20.000; and Estonians, 10.000; Swedes 7.000 explained probably by the fact these are neighbouring countries, the fourth group being Somalian, 4000; and Iraqi 3100 which is explained by refugees from these countries. The other big citizen groups are Great Britain, Germany, USA -some 2000 each.

The percentage of foreiginers per city is pretty parallel with the size of the city as well as its position on the map, as the largest, Helsinki with 550.000 inhabitants has 25.000 foreiginers; Espoo with 200.000/6.000 both in the South, Oulu with 120.000 inhabitants has 1.600 foreiginers in the North.

While classification by race or nationality is illegal, the classification by "citizenship" as in by passport can be done. When you talk about the whole population, as in residents you can make a
classification by the language a person speaks. Now the probability of a person from Estonia speaking Estonian or a person from Vietnam speaking Vietnamese may well be 90% accurate, however this doesn't apply to world languages such as French, English or Arabic. So the breakdown by
nationality, race or somesuch can only be made with wide generalizations.

Now if we look at the mother tongue breakdown we see a somewhat interesting development. Besides the three "domestic" languages that have some sort of official recognition; Finnish 4 780.000 speakers,
Swedish 290.000 speakers and Sámi 1.700 speakers, the other big languages are
Russian with 30 000 speakers, Estonian 10.000, English 7000, Somali 6.500, Arabic 5.000 and Albanian, Chinese, German, Vietnamese and Kurdish with some 3000 speakers each.

Also if you say that 1,8% foreiginers of the population is "very little" we'd say it is "extreme". At least compared with the figures of very stabile
0,3% in 1980
0,3% in 1985
0,4% in 1990 after which it started to rise with 0,1% per year to 2001.

In 1980 the population of Finland was 4 700.000, 12.000 foreiginers. Now *you* can ask yourself if Finland was not a "homogenized" country?

The smaller minorities, the Tartars and Roma in Finland have never numbered more than a few thousand, and for example the Sámi have been classified historically more by their livelihood and culture rather by their language and Swedish-speaking minority then again by their language, as their livelihood and culture is indistinguishable from the Finnish speakers.

BTW The foreign population of Finland was until the 2nd World War bigger than that of Sweden. Go figure.

Posted by: Hank W. | May 24, 2005 06:09 AM

Quote: American gun laws are very strict compared to Finnish laws. Attitudes
in cities are quite anti-gun, though in the countryside guns are very
common.

Actually, the finnish laws are a lot stricter. You need a permit to own or carry a fire arm. You even need a permit for specific ammunition if you want to buy any.

Yes, the hippies in the cities are anti-gun but most of the people still have relatives living in the country and have more reasonable attitude. A quite common hobby is hunting. Think about poor Bambi.

Every gun owner is registered and every gun is registered. Even shotguns. If you want to borrow a gun you need a permit. The permits are only issued if a person has a good reason i.e. a hobby, not personal protection.

In the US they have .45 rounds next to LEGO boxes.

Posted by: Arttu Kamppila | May 24, 2005 08:10 AM

Finland does have some of the most liberated women in the world. Here, women even work in construction and road crews with the hot asphalt and even doing the grass cutting in the summer and landscape maintenance of the city. But then again, they may also be Russians on guest worker visas. I can't tell the difference between finns and russians when they're dressed in work clothes. Russian women tend to dress up much more than finnish women. Meaning, the Russian women will wear better makeup, nicer clothes and generally show more style. Finnish women like to keep it simple. But please don't make it sound as if Finland is the only country in the world with female leaders. Even Pakistan had a female prime minister. Also India, Latvia (or lithuainia) and a handful of others. Finland was not the first.

It is true, finland is huge, but nobody wants to live in most of it. This past weekend, my friends and I were saying that Finland is becoming a huge park. Compared to the rest of europe, Finland is like one large national park. Everyone is moving to the south, mainly to Helsinki and Espoo. Most of the land seems to be owned by the forest industry for their paper mills. You would think everyone would have a large house with 4 acres of land surrounding them, but the reality is that most people live in Row houses or in apartment buildings.

That is what makes living in finland difficult, its geography. You have sea to the west, sea to the south, Russia to the east so it might as well be a sea because visas are expensive and too much hassel, and the artic to the north. So we really feel like we live on an island very seperated from europe. The long winter nights also drive people mad contributing to the fact that finland has one of the highest suicide rates in the world. Finns have an extremely short memory that helps them survive in this land. They forget bad memories quickly. If you watch finnish movies and television, they rarely display winter scenes. They convince themselves that it is not really so long. The ones that do not succeed in this attempt suicide. Everyone in this country knows someone who has attempted suicide. That is what makes it such a great place to get away to if you just want to forget about the world.

Finland has been able to clean up their industries by doing something extremely simple. Outsourcing those industries to Russia and eastern europe. The major dirty work that goes into making phones, electronics, forestry products, etc.. those are done in other countries. Finland doesn't even make its own matches anymore.

I know that Finland has been ranked as the most competitive economy in the world, but I really find it hard to believe and so does the Helsinginsanomat which can be read in the article "Seven myths about finland". http://www2.helsinginsanomat.fi/english/archive/news.asp?id=20031111IE1

Unemployment is really high here. And last I heard, Finland is no longer number one in mobil phones per capita. When your land line costs you 20 euros per month, PLUS per minute charges no matter where you call... there really is no reason to have a land line phone when you can have a mobil phone of which an average bill is 20 or 30 euros per month. People in finland, and the rest of europe for that matter, don't realize that in other parts of the world, as in the states, a land line isn't very expensive and local calls are free.
Linux may have been a finnish invention, but it was based completely on UNIX which was an american invention.

Something that is amazing about finns is that even though they don't have a lot of money, they will spend most of it on the latest gadets. Most everyone in Finland makes around 20,000 euros per year, people with masters degrees, engineers make a maximum of 4,000 euros per year, and that's after many years of experience. The cost of living in Finland is probably 30 percent higher than in the US. So, if you walk into a finnish house, you will not feel like you have walked into an american house. A lot of their furniture will be hand me downs or they have just cashed in on a inheritence. Housing costs are the same in Tampere as they are in southern california.

And like I said before, when I am paying 30 to 50 percent income taxes and 20 percent (VAT) sales taxes, I find it difficult to call my health insurance and welfare benefits "free".

Finns and many others kick this word "FREE" around a lot. Free education. No, its not free, our taxes are paying for it. Free university, no, our taxes and industry partnerships are paying for it. If they would charge a little, maybe there would be more interesting research programs as in the states. But to be nice, Finland's university resources are INCREDIBLE compared to France, Spain or any of the other southern european countries. The exchange students from those countries can't believe their eyes. American students think the labs are a little under equipped but satisfactory.

This man, Pekka Himanen, says Finnish society is all inclusive. What a load of c**p. Finnish society is all inclusive of all higher educated finns. Highly educated finns do not mix with lower educated finns. Since they were 14, they divide their society among vocational schooler, high math students and low math students. They rarely mix with each other. And any minorities in the country are completely marginalized. But since it is impossible to not pay taxes, all EU citizens and permanent residents have a right to the welfare benefits. But if you're here on a worker visa and paying 50 percent taxes.. you have no right to welfare.

The biggest factor behind finnish success has been LUCK and excellent workmanship. They found a niche that was being ignored and they have milked it.

It was reported that even most unemployed mothers leave their children in day care centers. A fantastic idea here is the 3 year long maternity leave. But I must admit, for the employer, it is very difficult. They have to provide the first 3 months full salary and they have to find a replacement who after some time, will have to be fired because the mommy will come back to work. I have a friend who was working, then became pregnant. When she was nearing her third year of maternity leave, she became pregnant again, and the whole cycle repeats. How long can something like that be funded? My own family, my finnish wife just had our first child, and we are returning to California soon. SO her first year of maternity leave checks will help us a lot in California where I will be working as an engineer making 60,000 dollars per year (5,000/month). But you would be surprised at how easy it is to become accostumed to paying high taxes. That's just life.

Do you know that if you are self employed, the only pension you are entitled to is the one you create for yourself. You'll get nothing from the state. But its a different story for employees. Is that "all inclusive" finland? A big part of life in scandinavia is "envy". People here envy successful people. They talk about them behind their backs. Everybody guns for the top dog.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying finland is a horrible place to live, it just isn't for me. The snow service is especially horrible. Slippery sidewalks and roads are simply accepted, so falling is accepted as part of life. I just can't live that way. When I slipped and broke my leg, there were people around me and nobody helped me get up. I think that Finns have come to depend so much on their welfare system, that they have forgotton how to help anyone themselves. They simply expect the government to take care of it.

But Pekka is right, you cannot compare contries simply by GDP. It was stated that Finns pay 45% in taxes and americans pay 25%. Does that include VAT(sales tax)? I doubt it. So, using my own situation of $60,000/yr, I will pay $300 per month health insurance. So health insurance is 6%. 7% pension. Higher education, mine cost $3000 per year (I stayed at home with mom and dad like a smart kid). So I finished in 4 years, $12,000. How do I put this into the percentages? My pre-university education was also free.

USA Finland
Income tax 25% 45%
Health ins 6%
Pension 7%
------------------------------
38% 45%

Sales tax 8% 20%
------------------------------
46% 65%

Okay, now it bothers me how much taxes I pay. Especially when I see the number of drunks and free loaders living it up in Finland.

Its true though, most finns do not want to be rich. And I don't think most americans want to be rich either. But our definitions of comfortable and independent are very different. Americans with families do not feel comfortable and independant unless they have a house with over 100 sq meters (1000 sq ft), they must own a suv or minivan to comfortably travel with the kids, and everything else varies. Finns can cram their families into a tiny car and live in a 75 sq meter house comfortably and generally feel they are living a great life. And everything in their house will be very simple and gathered over many years of saving up.

If you have ever watched EUROVISION, it is a wonder that this article states that finland produces many great musicians. Finland has repeatedly failed to even qualify for Eurovision over the years.

The brain washing campaign of the government in Finland has been extremely successful. And Finns are great at supporting their own. They will pay 3 euros for a finnish grown cucumber even though it is next to a 50 cent cucumber from Spain. They buy finnish brands no matter how tasteless they are and will only say great things about anything finnish. It is for these reasons that you must be sceptical of all statistics in finland. They do not like to air their dirty laundry as americans do.

Finns are desperate for respect and recognition, after having been in the shadows of Sweden and Russia for the past 500 years. Finns like to say that their culture is 1000 years old, but.. they refer to the Sami culture, which is a completely different blood line of shorter, darker people. They still show re-runs of the 1995 ice hockey world championship where Finland won top prize. How nostalgic can you be?

A funny thing about religion. They say there is no relgion in school and that no politician says "God Bless Finland", but the fact is that all holidays in finland are from the Lutheran religion, and it has been reported in the helsinginsanomat that the lutheran church is extremely favored by taxes. Other religions were even called second class religions. But generally, finns are not religious and consider people who go to church to be "strange". And I'm sure they study religion in school because I have Bahai friends who go to the local school to give classes. I just read that there is 12 years of obligatory religion lessons. Religion lessons are for learning about your religion. That's how it works everywhere in the world. Nobody worships during religion lessons, well, maybe a little.

Lots of people in finland own hunting guns. I even know of a guy that shot at burglars running away from his house. Hand guns are rare. Which I think is a good thing. That's something I really admire and enjoy in europe. I rather be robbed with a knife than with a gun.

Finns generally do not like or accept immigrants. But they are coming none the less and I predict finland will have a serious civil upheavel in the future as middle europe is currently having with their far right groups.
Finland does have some of the most liberated women in the world. Here, women even work in construction and road crews with the hot asphalt and even doing the grass cutting in the summer and landscape maintenance of the city. But then again, they may also be Russians on guest worker visas. I can't tell the difference between finns and russians when they're dressed in work clothes. Russian women tend to dress up much more than finnish women. Meaning, the Russian women will wear better makeup, nicer clothes and generally show more style. Finnish women like to keep it simple. But please don't make it sound as if Finland is the only country in the world with female leaders. Even Pakistan had a female prime minister. Also India, Latvia (or lithuainia) and a handful of others. Finland was not the first.

And like I said before, when I am paying 30 to 50 percent income taxes and 20 percent (VAT) sales taxes, I find it difficult to call my health insurance and welfare benefits "free".

The biggest factor behind finnish success has been LUCK and excellent workmanship. They found a niche that was being ignored and they have milked it.

Sales tax 8% 20%
------------------------------
46% 65%

Okay, now it bothers me how much taxes I pay. Especially when I see the number of drunks and free loaders living it up in Finland.

If you have ever watched EUROVISION, it is a wonder that this article states that finland produces many great musicians. Finland has repeatedly failed to even qualify for Eurovision over the years.

Finns generally do not like or accept immigrants. But they are coming none the less and I predict finland will have a serious civil upheaval in the future as middle europe is currently having with their far right groups.

Hi, I'm a mexican american living in finland for the
past 3 years. As Michel had stated earlier, it is
VERY difficult to find a job in finland, especially if
you are a foreigner. I myself even with a bachelors in
mechanical engineering ended up working in a english
preschool. In this country, if you are a foreigner,
everyone basically assumes that you are a refugee.
Especially if you have dark features. Gypsies aren't
even considered human. I would be surprised if they
are accounted for in the census. They say gypsies
don't go to school, but they don't look like gypsies
until they are married, at that point, they decide
whether or not they will wear their traditional
dresses and from then on, they wear them all the time.

But let me tell you the true reason why finnish
students do so well on tests. Teachers are a small
part of the reason, the big reason is CULTURE. That's
right, there is nothing more important to a finnish
family than the education of their children. The
parents talk about their children's studies all the
time, they help their children study, they proof read,
they make special tests for them, they send them to
extra intensive courses just before the big end of
year exams. You see, in this country, you're either
educated or you are "amatti" un-educated.

Finland has a holiday called Vappu on May 1st. On
this day, everyone who graduated from highschool (not
vocational school) wears a white hat. By law, you
only have to attend school up to the 9th grade.
People begin schooling at the age of 7 years old,
therefore being a bit more mature. At the age of 14,
they are expected to decide if they will do
highschool(who can go on to university) or vocational
school(to learn a trade like plumbing, janitor, road
repair, truck driving,super blue collar work). Then
the kids in highschool need to decide if they will
pursue high math(for engineering and accounting) or
low math(for liberal arts, hotel and tourism, etc..).
At this point, the grand divide begins. Most students
of high math only mingle with other high math
students. Low math only mingle with low math students
and the same with vocational school students. Then,
the students who go off to university rarely would
date or even imagine marrying someone who did not have
a university degree. They call the people who go off
to junior college(vocational school) "AMMIS" and it's
not a compliment.

So this is one big reason for why they do so well in
school. In the schools, there is absolutely no
respect for teachers. They call their teachers by
their first names or they make up degrading nicknames
for them and say it to their face. Many of the
finnish teachers that I know go off and get drunk just
as much as any teachers I know in Los Angeles.
Actually, since getting drunk at a party in finland is
almost "required", I am sure Finnish teachers are
drunk more often.

Another major factor has to be the fact that most
finns only have one child. So this child receives a
lot of attention and investment. The low birth rate
also aids in their low child mortality rate. It's
easier to hit a target with a rifle than with a
machine gun.

I seriously doubt that the finnish teachers deserve
most of the credit. It's like a doctor in Florida
taking credit for the great tan everybody in Florida
has. It's the culture!

At this moment, I have completed my masters of
Material Science in the University of Tampere. This
has to be the easiest system in the world. In all of
my classes, there was only a final exam for each
class. Rarely did most students ever show up to
lectures. Copies of old exams are available in the
department offices. And the new exams tend to repeat
the same questions as the old ones. So it is nearly
IMPOSSIBLE to fail an exam. But it is also VERY VERY
difficult to get a perfect or near perfect score.
Compared to my Bachelors from Cal Poly Pomona where we
had almost weekly quizes, mid-terms, then final exams
plus homework that was a part of your grade. But
maybe at masters level everywhere in the world, life
gets this easy.

They also practice in highschool by using many old
exams.

In Los Angeles, in my schools, that was always
considered cheating. If anyone was caught with old
exams in the university, something bad happened to
them. And teachers were not allowed to make copies of
books of anything. We had to buy them or check them
out of the library. But in europe, it is not illegal
to copy something if it is for educational purposes.
That is why we do not need to buy books in europe for
univeristy courses. The teachers give us copies of
books and notes and handouts to study from.

So these are some of the factors that go into those
high scores. So if you want those high scores for
your children, now you know what you have to do.

Oops.. sorry.. I had too many windows open, I hope this posts on the correct page.

Posted by: Eddie | May 24, 2005 09:26 AM

Hello Robert and Lucian,

I have just discovered your Finland Diary! I very much enjoyed the interview with Finnish philosopher Pekka Himanen, and the comments from others.

I wonder if you know about Finlandia University. Established in 1896 as Suomi College, it is the only university in the United States established by the Finnish. We continue to actively explore, preserve and promote our Finnish roots here in the Copper Country, as does the greater community. We are located in Michigan's upper peninsula on the Keweenaw Peninsula in Hancock, MI. The landscape here is said to be very much like Finland's. Over 38,000 persons of Finnish ancestry live in our service area, 25.6% of the entire population of the region.

The university also has many ties to contemporary Finland. The Finnish Ambassador to the U.S., Jukka Vultassari, delivered the commencement speech to our Class of 2005, and in 2003, President Tarja Halonen had the same honor. This week, several of our staff members are participating the Finnish Expatriate Parliament. In fact, our president, Dr. Robert Ubbelohde, is the only non-Finnish heritage member of this body.

I hope that you'll visit www.finlandia.edu to learn more about us.

Karen Johnson
Asst. Dir. of Communications
Finlandia University
601 Quincy St.
Hancock, MI 49930
906-487-7348
karen.johnson@finlandia.edu

Posted by: Karen Johnson | May 24, 2005 09:52 AM

Washington Post published today, May 24, the 'Finland Diary: A Country That Works', focussing on the school system. The story is good, but there is at the bottom of the page a 'Brief History of Finland', which would need some checking/revision: Main points: 1)1918. The summar states that the leftist were in supported in 1918 civil war by Soviet troops; there were no Soviet troops at that time, but remnants of the Czar's army in Finland; 2)First elections for Finnish Parliament took place in 1906, not in 1919; 3) 1920/30s, there were political tensions, but you would not call it a period of 'instability'; 4)1939.
It would not be correct to say, that Soviet troops easily defeated the Finns.
Advise to read history of Winter War;
5) 1941. Finland did not ally itself with Germany. Finland was waging its own separate war with the Soviet Union;
6) 1944. Soviet troops did not invade Finland. The whole point was that the Soviets were not able to cross the 1940 border. Advice reading the history of 1941-1944 war; 7) 1947 Paris peace treaty confirmed loss of territory as agreed in the armistice of 1944; there was no further loss of territory in 1948 treaty;
8) Finland pursued neutrality from the end of World War II, it did not begun to follow a neutral cours in the 1960s.
It is sometimes better to leave out these type of 'bullet type' historical summaries
as they are bound to include inaccuracies.

Posted by: Ossi | May 24, 2005 10:31 AM

"Please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying finland is a horrible place to live, it just isn't for me. The snow service is especially horrible. Slippery sidewalks and roads are simply accepted, so falling is accepted as part of life. I just can't live that way. When I slipped and broke my leg, there were people around me and nobody helped me get up. I think that Finns have come to depend so much on their welfare system, that they have forgotton how to help anyone themselves."

Doesn anyone else see a contradiction here? First he complains about snow service, then about dependence of Finns.

"If you have ever watched EUROVISION, it is a wonder that this article states that finland produces many great musicians. Finland has repeatedly failed to even qualify for Eurovision over the years."
Yeah, Eurovision is the indicator of quality, sure. You had some good points in your post, but remarks like this doesn't give you much credibility, you just sound bigoted.¨

"Nobody worships during religion lessons, well, maybe a little."
Holy Christ! (and I'm not even religious, but this is just too much...)

Posted by: Markus | May 24, 2005 10:36 AM

Hehehe.. ah Markkus.. i must admit, when I start talking about finland I do get wound up.

It's a great country, I've enjoyed my quiet years here, my easy going job with interesting research project has been very nice too, incredible flexibility, I love my finnish wife, her family is also very nice to me. I've really enjoyed canoeing in the lakes and trying to catch fishes. Can you believe, I haven't caught a good fish in almost 2 years!! I almost caught a nice size pike last night but he got away.

But I really hope that Finland starts importing more food or bringing down taxes on food so that the restaurants and kebab shops can start serving real meat instead of that ground meat.

Have you been to St Petersburg? Isn't it amazing the difference in variety in their supermarkets compared to Finland? And unbelievable that the entire population of Finland can live in a city only 300 kilometers away from Helsinki.

Hey, and Eurovision. ABBA got their start on eurovision, so you cannot say it is wrong to use it as a measure of quality. But anyways, eurovision is always fun to laugh at and criticize. Do you really think Greece deserved to win this year? Yuck.

Me bigoted? Nooooooo.... just trying to keep it real.

And yes, you do not worship during religion lessons. I have studied many different religions and I was not worshipping at the time. When I took my catecism classes for my roman catholic faith, I was not worshipping, I was learning the history of the church, its laws, and so on. We would also learn to memorize the prayers. So when I was working to memorize them, I wasnt really worshipping, I was memorizing.

You know, we had my baby's baptism a couple days ago, and I was AMAZED that my wife could recite her prayers from memory because she told me she has only been to church maybe 30 times in her life.

Anyways, enjoy the summer! While it lasts.. hopefully we don't get any rain like last year. Last year's weather completely destroyed me... I can't live through that again.

Posted by: Eddie | May 24, 2005 10:59 AM

It was with pleasure (and a smile) that I read your words about Finland. I am not Finnish by birth, but feel part Finnish through music, nature, and most of all, the friends I have met there. My first 10 trips to Finland have proven to me that this land is a special place. Getting to know the people and NOT just being a tourist is the way to discover the real Finland. I look forward to reading your Finland diary, hoping you will include more stories about the impact music has on the lives of the Finns. Finnish folk music is among the most beautiful music to be found anywhere in the world.

Posted by: Karen "Lulu" Foley | May 24, 2005 12:44 PM

We had a computer glitch that mistakenly disabled our e-mail address, finlanddiary@washingtonpost.com. You can send us private mail to this address now. It is working again. Sorry we had this problem.

Posted by: Bob Kaiser | May 24, 2005 12:53 PM

I have question: What is that sulfuric smell in Oulu? Whenever I visit it in the fall, the smell is pervasive.

I love Finland, especially Helsinki and that great esplanade down the middle of the boulevard.

But it is right about starting a business. A fellow Nokia employee once told me that there is some kind of regulation that a 2-3 person company still has to pay full benefits.

But what is that smell in Oulu? Any Oulu residents want to comment? Thanks!

And Finnair is great - still free drinks vs. stingy American Airlines.

Posted by: vision | May 24, 2005 01:15 PM

"But what is that smell in Oulu?"

They call it "the smell of money". Paper mills and all, you know.

Posted by: Markus | May 24, 2005 02:14 PM

Great first article, can't wait to read the rest. I am an American who lived in the eastern port city of Kotka, Finland for about 10 months during the mid-nineties. The people are very friendly and kind in most situations, although there are a few "right-wing" types who don't take kindly to foreigners, especially non-white ones.

You should really, really consider doing a followup to this story during the long, dark winter because I don't think you can tell the full story of this beautiful country without experiencing this phenomenon first hand.

IMHO, cell phone penetration in the U.S. is only now approaching what Finland's was back in 1996. The public library system was a great resource and free internet access helped me to keep in touch with home on the cheap!

Poster "Karen" (I believe) is right...the Finns are probably the most fit people I have ever met. Per capital, I have never seen so many people of all ages exercising as I did there. This may go a long way in explaining why Health Care costs in the U.S. are devouring our GDP while Finland can manage to fund theirs through taxes.

Many of the young Finns that I met do cast a longing eye towards America and most, if not all, expressed a desire to move there in search of "opportunity". I don't know if this has changed since my stay there.

Funny you mentioned vodka: all of my friends there didn't care much for Russians and boycotted drinking vodka in favor of cognac!

Taxes: Ouch!

Overall, that trip was one of the best experiences of my life and I can't wait to go back. Looking forward to the rest of yoru series.

Posted by: Chris | May 24, 2005 02:16 PM

"I have question: What is that sulfuric smell in Oulu? Whenever I visit it in the fall, the smell is pervasive."

I'm pretty sure that the smell is coming from the Stora Enso Paper Mill. It is the smell of money they say. Although, at the moment all of our paper mills are shutdown because of some strife with collective labor agreement.

Posted by: Juhana H. | May 24, 2005 02:22 PM

My wife is pure Finnish, with parents Niemennen and Palomeckki, and grandparents born in Finland, but I am a "Laplander" of Scottish/Irish descent, and our son, age 22, is an interesting blend of heritage, but very much in love with the Finnish culture, especially saunas and coffee.
We returned to the motherland in the heat-wave summer of 2003, touring both Helsinki and the lake country (and the Ittala glass factory).
It was a near-religious experience for mother and son and I was privileged to be a part of it. There seemed to be some genetic thing going on with our son (Ryan) and his love for all things Finnish. He was the one reminding us that we were never to refuse either a sauna or coffee from a Finn. This was put to the test with our older cousin in her apartment during one of those 90+ degree (Fahrenheit) afternoons after lunch, when the cousin asked if we would like coffee.
My wife and I just couldn't do it, but he spoke right up in the affirmative and the two Finnish cousins had a grand old time perspiring together.
Another dramatic event was the train trip to St. Petersburg, wherein the Finnish segment and the Finnish personnel were all bright and cheery, but the atmosphere took a turn for the worse when we crossed the Russian border. We were glad to see the Finns again on the return trip!!
Ryan was also fascinated by Finnish Socialism that seemed to work very well and also the modern art museums.
The Finnish people are wonderful and our stay was far too short. We want to return when we can spend a week in a cabin on a lake.

Posted by: Del Boyles | May 24, 2005 02:31 PM

I would recommend you undertake an exploration of how the Finns enjoy the outdoors, and how this may relate to their overall medical - and economic - health. One outdoor sport that many Finns enjoy is orienteering, and every year several Finnish men and women rank in the top 10 worldwide in this sport that is both mentally and physically challenging. Every summer, the world's largest orienteering relay race takes place in Finland, celebrating a story of seven brothers. This day & night race attracts around 10,000 participants, in either 7-man relay teams (Jukola teams) or 4-woman teams (Venla). I was lucky enough to be on the first American team to ever compete in the Jukola and the experience, both on and off the course, gave us all a great appreciation for Finnish culture, nature, and recreation. For more information, you can contact their national federation: Suomen Suunnistusliitto 00093 SLU, Finland; Käyntiosoite: Radiokatu 20, Helsinki Puh: 09-3481 21*, Email info@ssl.fi, URL www.ssl.fi/.
For those who may not know, orienteering is an outdoor sport in which you find your way as quickly as you can around a course consisting of various checkpoints, akin to a scavenger hunt, and is often a key part of adventure races. In the greater Washington DC area, the Quantico Orienteering Club holds 2-3 events/month during its Sept-June season, suitable for all ages and skill levels.

Posted by: Greg Lennon | May 24, 2005 02:38 PM

"Have you been to St Petersburg?"

Only when it was still called Leningrad.

"Isn't it amazing the difference in variety in their supermarkets compared to Finland?"

Are you saying that they have a higher standard of living there?

"and I was AMAZED that my wife could recite her prayers from memory because she told me she has only been to church maybe 30 times in her life."

Yeah, finnish schools used to be very religious, but it has changed.

"Last year's weather completely destroyed me..."

Mentally?
(Ok, sorry, that was a cheap shot.)

Posted by: Markus | May 24, 2005 02:58 PM

Both of my grandparents were Finns from Turku and an island(?) off the western coast. I would like to share a Finnish joke that my uncle always used to tell: "the Russians were always bragginhg about how they invented everything: the radio; the tv; etc. and yes even the toilet. To a Finn that may be true, but the Finns 'boast'that they put the hole in it. (Some of the intense 'disklike' that existed between the Finns and Russians'" Kitos...

Posted by: Ken Lehtonen | May 24, 2005 03:06 PM

Joke:
What do you call an outgoing Finn?
Answer: Someone who looks down at *your* shoes when he talks.

OK bad joke, but a running one in US Nokia offices. Hey, Finns get all the promotions/never get laid off at Nokia. But it's their company, so cannot expect better I suppose.

Worst Biz Trip ever: January in Hki. Best trip ever: June in Hki. A land of contradictions!!

Best ideas if visiting: Take boat trip to Talinn, Estonia! Or, take Friday night Silja-line booze cruise to Stockholm.

Posted by: vision | May 24, 2005 03:08 PM

In Finland they do teach religion as a subject for a whole 12 years. The whole point of the education is not to make Christians - The whole point is to teach people about all the religions in the world equally. Of their pros and cons. Everyone can choose what to believe freely. This, I believe, is the very opposite the the conservative US system.

Since first or second year no one is told to pray, not once. After a few years, at least 60% of the education or so is based on other religions than our own.

Posted by: Furious student | May 24, 2005 03:18 PM

What Mr Himanen says about school prayer and the separation of church and state is not accurate at all. Having gone through all the 12 years of the Finnish school system, I can say that it is not a particularly secural one. In primary school there definitely is school prayer, and you can be excused if your parents so desire. Religion is in the background of the society; it's a taboo.

In addition, there is no gay marriage in Finland. There are civil unions, but they are obviously not the same as gay marriages. This is an issue that's not discussed in the media in Finland anymore.

Based on my personal experience, a major difference between Finland and the U.S. is that in Finland, issues aren't simply talked about as they are in the States.

Posted by: G | May 24, 2005 03:31 PM

As for gay marriage, I do not think for a minute that Finland is an "open" society in that way. It is funny how many Finnish men joke that all Swedes are gay.

Posted by: jugjur | May 24, 2005 03:39 PM

"The whole point is to teach people about all the religions in the world equally."
Well, it's not that rosy, I'm afraid. At least the first six years of religion classes focus in christianity, which of course is quite understandable considering the effect christianity has had on our society/history.

Posted by: Markus | May 24, 2005 03:44 PM

"Having gone through all the 12 years of the Finnish school system, I can say that it is not a particularly secural one."

When was that? You know the law/practice has changed quite recently?
Also, you should be cautious drawing conclusions like that based only on your experience. Times have changed, I schools differ from each other to some degree.

Posted by: Markus | May 24, 2005 03:50 PM

Some comments regarding Eddie's colorful outburst. Eddie, I think your personal view was extremely important in that it pointed out that by no means is Finland necessarily a dreamland to live in but it certainly is a good and safe place if you are looking for these properties. Your post did contain an exhausting amount of factual errors, but I try to go through the most flagrant of them as briefly as I can:

- There are very little Russian women working or even Russian people living here so they most likely are Finnish women what you have seen. Women are in general highly respected here and accordingly Finland was the first country in Europe to allow women to vote in 1906.

- Paper industry most certainly does not own most of the land. Most of the land is owned by common farmers and other individuals i.e. estate owners

- Long winter nights is too simple a reason for suicides, personally I like long winter nights. Finland is ranked 10th in the statistics: http://www.aneki.com/suicide.html

- Most Western European countries have established enterprises Estonia, Russia, Latvia etc. after the collapse of communism and so did Finland. "Cleaning up the industry" is a misnomer.

- Linux: Very little in this world is not based on nothing. Linus created the open concept which then was adopted and further developed by the community. The community is who granted the honor of the invention to Linus, so obviously there was a reason for that.

- Salary/cost of living: if we can believe these sites: http://www.aneki.com/richest.html and http://www.aneki.com/expensive.html living in the US is more expensive than in Finland though the average income in US is higher. Finland has been improving and out-ranked Sweden in GDP a couple of years ago.

- The taxation is high but is similar or lower than in Sweden. Including what has been said earlier we should not forget that the country is large with a small population compared to it's size. There are fewer people sharing the costs that come from maintaining the infrastructure including roads, government expenses, army etc.

- I must say that the degrading comments about the universities was almost insulting. There was a recent international study about schooling in different countries and if not best Finland was in the high top rank. I'm sure you can find the results from the net if you are interested in factual information. I personally hold a Masters Degree in Engineering and certainly disagree with everything you say. High standard tech university education is what is required for the telecommunications technology, paper manufacturing and machine development, electronics, process engineering, biochemistry of which we get most of our income.

You stated:

" Finns are desperate for respect and recognition, after having been in the shadows of Sweden and Russia for the past 500 years. Finns like to say that their culture is 1000 years old, but.. they refer to the Sami culture, which is a completely different blood line of shorter, darker people."

Lets have a brief review of the early history of the Finns, maybe this will enlighten some of the issues.

The Finns - not referring to the Sami - have a long history as a nation but not as an independent state. I won't go further than the year 1340 as I would have to dig it up myself. At that particular year the Pope Benedictus XII excommunicated a bunch of Finnish farmers living in Sääksmäki (a place) as they had declined to pay the fourth squirrel skin to their local bishop. This incident is recorded in the church books. From this we can conclude that there already existed an infrastructure, farming, a church organization and even regular communications to and from the Vatican i.e. a culture, and these things do not develop quickly.

It is true what you say that the Finns have been living between the Swedish and Russian Empires, both states ruling the country by turns. There simply was not enough Finns at that time to confront these strong Empires even if they ever wanted to. The Swedes collected taxes, took men to arms but also gave something in return. The Russians mostly harassed, robbed and murdered the people living close to the border thus creating a deep and persistent hatred towards them in the national memory of the Finns.

In this context it was at the end of the Age of Enlightenment (the 1800 century) and in the beginning of the 1900 century, affected by the philosophical thoughts of the Romantic Period, that learned Finns became interested in the original culture and roots of the Finns and started collecting folklore and document it. One of the results is the Kalevala. The refinement of the Finnish language had started a couple of hundreds years earlier by men of Faith who translated the Bible into Finnish according to the teaching of Martin Luther who said that "each man should know his Bible".
Documentation of culture of the Finns was an ongoing work until even until recent days.

The was a brief history of Finland on this site of the recent history and the WWII (which I haven't read) but obviously partly incorrect and corrected in Ossi's comment so I won't go into that.

Eddie stated: "Finns are desperate for respect and recognition"

This is a generalization which certainly is not true in general. But, I'm also a firm believer in that a strong history of any nation can build the self-esteem of it's inhabitants even if these inhabitants personally never did anything to earn it. Eddie is quite right in that the Finns - a small nation - have nothing particular to brag about in their history but there is nothing to be shamed of either.

As a closing statement I would think that the word "Survival" would describe the destiny of the Finns pretty well. Survival through the ancient history, Survival as a recognizable nationality, survival in the WWII and currently - Survival in the economical battles using modern arms like schooling, hard work and, how can I not mention, the Finnish "sisu".

Posted by: | May 24, 2005 04:19 PM

I think one of the keys to Finland success is its homogeneity.

Finland, like Japan is very homogenous and enjoys low crime and high educational standards.

I know it's not popular to bring this up in the mainstream press but these facts cannot be denied.

I if were a Finn I wouldn't be too excited about creating a multi-cultural society.

Just look at what's going on in the Netherlands and the UK these days not to mention Detroit, Michigan.

Posted by: biznet | May 24, 2005 04:19 PM

In response to Markus's comments:

I base my previous comment on school prayers and religion at schools on my having gone through the Finnish school system. I graduated from upper secondary school two years ago, so I have a pretty recent picture of what's going on.

I understand that schools differ quite a lot. However, I don't consider having gone to particularly conservative schools, as they were all in the Helsinki metropolitan area.

All in all, I became rather disillusioned with Finland (for many, many reasons) and decided to move away - these days I live in Britain.

Posted by: G | May 24, 2005 05:08 PM

Thanks for this interesting blog! I can hardly wait what your next blog entry tells us about our lovely Finland :)

Posted by: Johanna | May 24, 2005 07:30 PM

From the posts I've skimmed through while reading this interesting page about my country I must say that Eddie's post has most flavour. There are some things I agree with and some that I disagree with.

First of all, there is no real grand division in our school system. After the ninth grade people usually decide between high school and vocational school by their average school results, people who managed to be somewhat interested about their eduacation (and not the more important matters, girls, motorbikes, alcohol..teenage in it's worst) usually go for the high school, which is generally given as the door for better quality of life, going for high school also gives you some extra years to decide what you want to do for the rest of your life. From high schools you can attend universities or upper vocational schools (dunno what's the correct name in english), from vocational studies you usually go straight to worklife or to the upper vocational eduacation. It's also possible to attend both at the same time, which is getting more popular these days. Your social status doesn't affect the choise a lot, since high taxation provides good social security and gives everybody a chance for higher eduacation.

Your statement about students mingling with people of similiar eduacation is basically not true. In high schools you usually have 3 lessons of math from total of 25 lessons a week (depends on how hard you study of course) and on all the other classes people from long and short math are in the same courses. And it definately isn't true that people mingle amongst people depending on the math their reading. It generally speaking isn't true that people from high schools and vocational schools don't mingle with each other either. Usually people hang around people they got to be friends with during 7-9th classes in school, and when choosing between vocational and high schools friends always have some effect. After 9th grades people don't interact with each other so much between schools, so if you didn't make friends before it, you propably won't do that after either.

And the word amis (btw. not AMMIS) doesn't really have much to do with going to vocational school anymore, it's a word used when talking about young people with certain lifestyle. And yes, the word has a negative sense.

In Finland we also have the separation of church and state. Sure all the holidays are from church holidays, it's called history. There hasn't been use for changing the common holidays. Schools usually celebrate events like christmas for the obvious reason of 99,9% percent of students and teachers being christian. This usually shows as a special meal and some kind of a party during school before the holiday vacation begins.

In religion lessons most of the lessons are about christianity during 1-6th classes and other religions on 7-9th classes. It gives a good basis for understanding the society finnish people live in and the motives that still are bubbling under people's minds. It also gives some information about history and something to compare other religions with.

It's weird that you mention maternity leave being 3 years in a negative sense, sure it can be a stupid situation for the employer when there are cases of mothers popping out an unit once every couple of years, but the whole idea is that wimen don't have to choose between children and career.

And finnish students don't lack respect for teachers, calling them by the first name is not and incompliment, it's a finnish way to talk to someone. Usually when new students meet their teachers the teacher says the name he/she can be called with, usually either that or just "teacher". About the lack of respect, that's untrue. The thing is that respect is something you deserve and if the teacher can't make the classroom quiet and therefore cannot teach anything, he won't be getting any respect from the students either.

"Lots of people in finland own hunting guns. I even know of a guy that shot at burglars running away from his house."

From which he propably some very heavy sanctions, gunlaws are very strict and using excessive force against anybody results in heavy penalties, you can get sanctions by pointing an empty gun at a burglar you caught red handed robbing your house.

"Finns generally do not like or accept immigrants. But they are coming none the less and I predict finland will have a serious civil upheaval in the future as middle europe is currently having with their far right groups."

Immigrants aren't generately very popular, it's true. Reasons vary, one of them is that they get very generous social aid, other is that we have 200 000 unemployed people and the couple of immigrants who come here take the jobs, partially true but the jobs immigrants usually end up with are those finnish people wouldn't take anyway. Then you buy a sensation newspaper and read about teenage girls getting raped by immigrants, it's easy to get very reserved about foreign people in that way. That's what it's all about, being suspicious and reserved about foreign people, it's not like finns dislike foreigners, more like the opposite.

The only group of people that are really dissed are gypsies, partially for their own fault. They're pretty separated from rest of the society, and everybody in Finland at least know somebody who has had negative interactions with them. Their situation is pretty much constant though..

About the rightwing people, yes there are some. Usually young, stupid people who are laughed at by the rest of the nation. They also have a nickname "isänmaanpuollustajat = fatherland deffenders" Yes the typo is there for a reason.

So yeah, that's my point of view. But don't believe me, come and see.

Posted by: Grin | May 24, 2005 07:42 PM

Hello

I`m delighted with the diary.
I really don´t know anything about finns so you have made my day.

Posted by: Victoria | May 24, 2005 07:56 PM

As Bill Clinton would not have said, "Its the northern European population and cohesive system undestroyed by mass immigration and treasonous elites, stupid."

And yet the Washington Post authors have to concoct polite ways of politely tiptoeing around the obvious truth.

Posted by: JM | May 24, 2005 08:00 PM

Just a small addition to my previous longish comment to Eddie. You said:

"The biggest factor behind finnish success has been LUCK and excellent workmanship. They found a niche that was being ignored and they have milked it."

Finland was the only nation who ever paid it's war indemnity in full after the WWII. Besides that Finland had to declined to received Marshall aid because the Soviet demanded so. A great deal of the war indemnity consisted of ships and machines. At that time Finland did not have enough capacity to build what was demanded within the time schedule. However, everything was delivered - and as far as I can remember quite promptly as well. As a result of this effort in which the whole nation took part as one, Finland developed from an agricultural country into an industrial country in an astonishingly short time. In a sense we living today could call this as 'LUCK' but I'm sure our parents at that time did not think so.

On the other hand, if we follow your logic and call 'LUCK' all good the business opportunities others have ignored, it would be fair to say that all good businesses are 'LUCK' not only the Finnish, wouldn't you agree?

Posted by: Risto Apajalahti | May 24, 2005 09:23 PM

Sort of following on from JM

Regarding immigration Pekka Himanen says : "our attitudes should get much more open."

Why should they get more open?

Its a genuine question. What will Finland gain from immigration? High unemployment doesnt indicate Finland needs more unskilled workers. The suberb educational stats speak for themselves - Finland is not suffering a shortage of skilled workers.

So what is this "need"? Could it be for "diversity"? And what exactly are the benefits of "diversity", generally they are held to be self-evident, so much so that its thought to be vulgar to outline them. Well I hate to sound vulgar and *whisper* its not polite to say it, but I dont know the benefits? Im constantly told about them but no-one will tell me what they are!

Anybody care to try? Oh, and no, you are not allowed to include foreign cuisine.

So what is this bright, diverse, future going to do for Finland?

Posted by: Bernard | May 24, 2005 09:44 PM

"Finland is not suffering a shortage of skilled workers."

Maybe not yet, but the "pension boom" is not far and when it hits, we just might be short of them. There have been lots of headlines in the last year saying that there will be a shortage of skilled labor in the near future.

Posted by: Jukka | May 24, 2005 10:15 PM

It's been great to read your diary from Finland. I'm a Finn living in Annapolis Maryland. I've been dissapointed on the knowledge that most Americans have (don't have) about Finland. I've came to face people who will ask oh is Finland a city, state or country?
Once i went to a bar here with few friends and we sat on a table with couple of American guys. My friends were Asians and so the American guys asked us all where we are from. As i said i'm from Finland the other guy looked at me and asked isn't that the country where everybody walks naked on the streets? I couldn't but laugh and ask if he would be able to go out naked when it's -20 celcius degrees outside.
I hope to see some nice pictures from your tour and read more intresting articles.
Enjoy the Finnish spring/summer!

Posted by: Eevis | May 24, 2005 10:57 PM

To G:
"I graduated from upper secondary school two years ago, so I have a pretty recent picture of what's going on."

The law has changed since that. Also, it's been almost 8 years since you were in primary school, right?

"However, I don't consider having gone to particularly conservative schools, as they were all in the Helsinki metropolitan area."

You're right, most conservative schools are in the rural areas.

"I became rather disillusioned with Finland"
Disillusioned in the sense that you have no illusions or that you became disappointed?

Posted by: Markus | May 25, 2005 01:22 AM

On the topic of gender equality, as a woman I do not feel any more liberated in Finland than I did in America, and for other reasons, my husband and I are moving back to the U.S. this autumn. I feel very strongly about these perspectives because there are so many essays out there about the shortcomings of countries that acknowledge that they have not achieved gender quality yet, but as far as I know there haven't been so many articles questioning the so-called equality that some countries think they've achieved. Finland is not behind the USA in this issue, but neither is it very far ahead...

Here is something I've written on the subject:

In the beginning, one of the things that attracted me to Finland was its stellar rating as a top nation in the world for gender equality, second only to Sweden or perhaps Norway. It was easy to imagine Finland as a land where women make most of the decisions, where they get due recognition for all of their hard work both at home and in the career setting, and where they have access to the same opportunities and salary levels as men. However, in my nearly five years of living in Finland, I've found these claims to be misleading at best, and often questionable. I consider myself to be in a good position to talk about this issue because, as a foreign woman married to a Finn and living in Finland, I am able to see the society from an outsider's perspective, and notice things that Finns, or particularly Finnish women, might not be able to see, or might choose not to see.

I can only compare Finland with the USA because those are the only two countries in which I've spent a considerable amount of time. Also, I will stay away from statistics because, although they are fun to use, I think that they are often depended on too much. They can also be misleading, and regardless of what kind of picture they paint of a particular place, I still tend to go by what I see with my own eyes in everyday life.

First off, it is very important to take into consideration that both countries (and I could go out on a limb by saying that all countries) have regional differences in general attitudes and habits. I do not think that any particular region or town in either country should be used to represent the nation as a whole, even though this seems to be a common and accepted practice. Many times I have been involved in discussions with people who have lived in both countries and proclaim that "In the USA it's like this and in Finland it's like that", to which I often reply, "Well, A is not necessarily so in the place where I come from in the USA, nor is B often true where I live in Finland".

Feminism is one of those issues that seem to bring out strong regional differences, as so many stories of independent, headstrong, capable women come from southern Finland, particularly in the capital Helsinki area. The further north you go, the more evidence there is of male chauvinism, co-dependence in romantic relationships, gender discrimination in the workplace, and disrespect towards feminist values. Since it is common for foreigners visiting or living in Finland to draw most of their conclusions from what they see in the Helsinki area, they tend to assume that that is consistent throughout the entire country.

In Finland, most women work full-time away from home and are expected to do so, even though in the recent past there has been an increase in the number of those who are staying home. Finland likes to brag about the high percentage of women in the workforce, but if we peel back the layers of the issue, there is slightly more to the story than that. Finland's economic system makes it nearly impossible for a two-adult household to survive on one income, so many Finnish women have little choice but to work, even if they would rather be homemakers. Additionally, if a woman of any age is unemployed, the social security system pays an allowance for various circumstances, such as studying to earn a degree, taking non-degree classes as part of a job search, having children, or as a stipend for doing housework if her husband's income is below a certain level. Many advocates of socialism have raved about the ingenuity of this system, but it only gives the illusion of women's independence, and is roughly the equivalent of a husband giving his wife money out of his own paycheck in the American system. So the end result is the same; a woman who does not work still gets money, but does it matter whether that money comes from the government or directly from her spouse? In my view, it does not matter. The concept of a homemaker definitely does exist in Finnish culture, but it is covered up with various labels, such as "maternity salary", and "home allowance". From a gender equality perspective, it all comes down to the reasons why women work. Is it because they want to or because they have to for the sake of the family's financial stability? Or maybe a little of both? Finnish women often consider themselves to be powerful and independent because they are expected to work. But they are forgetting that in some places being expected to work is considered to be a sign of financial uncertainty, and that not all women use work as a liberation device.

Theoretically and on paper, all women in Finland do have access to the same career prospects as men, but in reality the gender divide is much the same as it is in the U.S. Women are more likely to get lower-paid, blue-collar jobs regardless of their education, and they still dominate "traditional" female sectors such as nursing, teaching, childcare, cleaning, cooking, beautician work, office reception duties, and cashier work. Men are more likely to become engineers, bus drivers, construction workers, plumbers, car repair technicians, police officers, lawyers, and airline pilots. Where I live in Oulu, I once had a haircut done by a cosmetology trainee at the local technical college. In a room full of students, there was not one male stylist to be found. Of course, you will find women who are employed in male-dominated sectors and vice versa, but in many of the cases that I am aware of, the female professional seemed to have secured her job because of her personal connections to the industry, not because of her own motivation or area of education.

Expanding on that, in 2004 I attended a day-long women's entrepreneurial seminar in the city where I live. Representatives from the local public business service center gave an excellent and honest speech on the challenges faced by Finnish business women. The gist of the speech was that, as much as we'd like to think things have changed over the course of history, women are still a minority in the business world, and most business that are started and run entirely by women either remain very small, or they fail. Women tend to get smaller business loans than men, and are more likely than men to have their loan applications denied, perhaps partly because the decisions are made by male-dominated review committees who may doubt women's abilities to make a return on the investment. And indeed, the very fact that there are small business loans for women in Finland indicates that there are inequalities, otherwise there would be no need for special treatment. There were four female entrepreneur guest speakers at the seminar, and I was expecting accounts of their own ingenuity and persistence in building their businesses, but it soon became clear that three of the women had not even started their businesses themselves, but rather inherited companies from their parents, causing me to wonder if they really owed their success to their own motivation and expertise, or if they owed it to existing family connections and wealth that most likely originated from the father or grandfather. And so, as I left the seminar, I found myself thinking, "Well, that's great for women who come from entrepreneurial families, but what about those who do not; what chances do they have, realistically?" Could it be that the old saying "behind every successful woman is a man" holds true in Finland too? Some time later, I heard about a centuries-old business club in our city that is exclusive to men and apparently still does not accept female applicants; how ironic that I first heard about the club from a fellow guest at the city hall reception held in honor of Finland's national Women's Day.

Then there are the smaller things that blend in to everyday life, yet stand out as obvious when considered from a larger perspective. Women still do most of the housework, and in some more conservative areas and farming communities, men are not expected to be involved in cooking or cleaning at all. Despite the strengths of the socialist welfare model, young women seem to have a harder time getting established as adults and paying the bills if they are single, and when a couple gets married, it is more likely that the woman will change or give up her current lifestyle to accommodate the man's needs and career goals, than vice versa. For hobbies and personal interests, men are more likely to be found in hardware stores, electronics emporiums, and automotive supply shops; whereas women tend to frequent fashion outlets, craft shops, and interior decorating boutiques. Once, during a visit to my favorite fabric store, the proprietor helped a man who had wandered into the shop find the address of the place he was looking for. After he had left, the proprietor said to me, "I knew he must be looking for some other store because I hardly ever get male customers in here."

I've come to the conclusion that neither country has achieved absolute gender equality, but the measures of equality or inequality are interpreted differently in each society. What an American woman considers necessary to be liberated may not be the same as what a Finnish woman considers necessary, but both may consider themselves to be as equal as possible in their respective cultures.

Posted by: Caroline | May 25, 2005 01:27 AM

Himanen was partly wrong with his description of finnish gun politics.

Himanen said "The Finnish thinking is that the number of guns is linked to having a more violent society". This is simply not the case. There are over two million licensed firearms and an estimated quarter-million unlicensed firearms in Finland. Ownership of fully-automatic weapons is not prohibited, but shooting with them is regulated, and there are estimated to be roughly 30,000(?) full-automatic weapons in private ownership. With a population of around 5 million, this gives Finland a per-capita ownership rate of full-automatic weapons nearly ten times that of the United States.

One reason for the high amount of gun owners are the military reservist's who have bought for themselves pistols, target rifles, shotguns and semi automatic assault rifles for practice shooting. This has been passively supported by the government, as it gives to the reservists possibility to practice shooting with military style weapons without requiring government spending.

However buying a gun for self defence is not possible in Finland. Other interesting fact is that sound suppressors, a firearm accessory strictly regulated in many other jurisdictions, are also widely available in Finland.

Posted by: Hannes Vauhkonen | May 25, 2005 01:38 AM

"Anyway, the unemployment has been getting smaller and hopefully continues to do so."

The reason why the unemployment rate falls is because a lot of unemployed individuals leave Finland, give up looking for work, or enroll in state-funded job search programs; it does not mean that more jobs are being created. So just because someone is not listed on the unemployment register, does not mean that they are making a living. Other nations' statistics do this as well, but the point is that many people in Finland would not be in these "limbo" statistics if they could find enough work in the first place. In many cases in Finland, collecting benefits has become a replacement for real work, which is creating a very fragile situation for the economy.

But just to balance things out a bit, I'll say that my experience in Finland has been very valuable and I've learned a lot of lessons about life. But I do think that reports and propaganda about Finland need to be a tad more multi-sided and talk about some negative things too, so that at least optimistic foreigners moving here can know what to expect. Finland is not any better or worse than any other country: the problems here are simply well hidden.

Posted by: Caroline | May 25, 2005 02:31 AM

To Caroline:
"It was easy to imagine Finland as a land where women make most of the decisions... I've found these claims to be misleading at best"

No big suprise there. Not exactly my idea of gender equality ("women make most of the decisions").

"but does it matter whether that money comes from the government or directly from her spouse?"

Yes it does, because you'll get that money even if you divorce your, let's say violent, husband.

"After he had left, the proprietor said to me, "I knew he must be looking for some other store because I hardly ever get male customers in here."... I've come to the conclusion that neither country has achieved absolute gender equality, "

Do you really think gender equality is gender similarity? I'm not willing to give away my freedom to "be found in" harware stores etc. to balnce the ratio of customers.

Posted by: Markus | May 25, 2005 02:36 AM

To Caroline:
"It was easy to imagine Finland as a land where women make most of the decisions... I've found these claims to be misleading at best"

No big suprise there. Not exactly my idea of gender equality ("women make most of the decisions").

"but does it matter whether that money comes from the government or directly from her spouse?"

Yes it does, because you'll get that money even if you divorce your, let's say violent, husband.

Do you really think gender equality is gender similarity? I'm not willing to give away my freedom to "be found in" harware stores etc. to balnce the ratio of customers.

Posted by: Markus | May 25, 2005 02:37 AM

I agree with H. Vauhkonen.

"Himanen said "The Finnish thinking is that the number of guns is linked to having a more violent society". This is simply not the case."

Guns are linked to hobbies (hunting, shooting), not to more violent society. Finns don't buy guns to shoot people (even they sometimes do shoot them), they buy them for hunting and so on.

Posted by: Markus | May 25, 2005 02:45 AM

Oh Eddie, Eddie, Eddie!! You have committed the one unforgiveable sin - you have dared to hint at something negative about Finland. I should have thought that you would have learnt by now that everything is wonderful and rosy here in kallis suomen maa (in-joke here -can be read to mean beloved Finland or expensive Finland).

We Finns love to fool ourselves into thinking everything is perfect here.

Well, some comments:

Nokia - I'm sick of hearing about this wonderful Finnish miracle. It is NOT a Finnish miracle - we own about 6% of the company, and the last decent thing they made was their amazing rubber boots - my pair is almost 30 years old!! Their cellphones are overpriced, overhyped junk - my family owns siemens and motorola phones as we got sick of replacing the nokia phones every 3 months or so when they seized up

Generous welfare state - yeah right!
You pay about 25 dollars for each of your first three visits per year. Medicine is highly expensive. (back in the 70s it was a generous welfare state but no longer). The queues are long - I live in an Eastern suburb where we have been 3 doctors short for nearly 2 years and it takes upwards of 3 months to get a time to see the doctor - about 6 months to see the dentist.

Pensions? I'm self-employed (actually I'm a one-man company) and the only pension I will get is what I pay for myself - this is earnings-related - and I will not get a full pension until I'm 68

Oh yeah! nobody told you that Finland is very much against old people. I've read a government memo stating that doctors should carefully consider prescribing expensive treatment/medication for old people as it was not cost-effective meaning the government would not get their money back through taxes paid by the old. and the idea of not paying pensions till 68 is to get old people to work longer, thus saving money.

Women are equal? Well if you ask them they'll tell you about the glass ceilings in business.

Education? Student grants do not cover expenses and so you have to work unless you've got really rich parents. This is why it takes so long to get a degree. The government has recognised this and is trying to speed things up, but...

Hank W is wrong about 'church tax' - you only pay it if you are registered as a believer. 20 odd years ago there was a stigma attached to opting out as I did, but not any more. But 20 years ago the priest refused to baptise children if he did not like the name - considered it non-traditional or foreign.

Finnish society is very divided - more so now than 20 - 30 years ago. I live in an Eastern suburb which is used as a dumping ground for immigrants, unemployed and poorly-educated. Don't believe me, read the official reports or see how we elected Tony Halme a rabid rabble-rouser who believes in Finland for the Finns, etc. by a landslide.

Things have deteriorated badly in Finland due to two things:

1. We lost our cash cow when the Soviet Union collapsed

2. We joined the EU.

We joined it mainly because we have a huge inferiority complex for historical and geographical reasons, and were so delighted that somebody actually wanted us. Now we wish we could get out as we're rapidly losing our Finnishness.

Posted by: arvo asiakas | May 25, 2005 02:47 AM

arvo,
"we have a huge inferiority complex"

I'm reading your post and I wonder why?

It's true we have huge problems here in Finland too, but just for once, could we ease off and enjoy and celebrate the things we've done right. (Of course, this blog is not all about how great Finland is, but still.)
There's plenty of time for that negativeness too.

Posted by: Markus | May 25, 2005 03:02 AM

What the Finns did not tell to you and you did not ask is Finland's political system.

-There is a particular political party allways in the government dispite the results of the parlamentary elections.

-There is no single Finnish language political party in the parliament,but they all are officially bilingual in addition to an officially Swedish language party.

In other countries it would be called democratical gap but not in Finland where the population is over 90 % Finnish speaking!

-The parliamentary election means nothing else but the people elect new partners for the one political party in Finnish government. (That has led to a political passivity among the voters)

-There is no parlamentarism in the western sense of the word but the role of the opposition is to wait for their turn in the government as political partner for the political party who is allways in the government.

-That fact has led to a situation where the politicial parties who are in the opposition withdraw from critizising the ideology of the particular political party,because it will be their partner in the government in any case.

(Parlamentarism does not work the way it should work)

-In no other country,I suppose,it was possible that the leading figure of a opposition party (Mr. Kanerva) proposes his political party to be united to a political party who is in the government. That took place just in the winther. It did not rise any eyebrows among the Finns.

-Finland suffers still of the relics of Intra-European colonialism. That has led to a situation where the political-economil olicarchy being earlier Swedish speaking and now bilingual dispise the fact that the people of Finland are Finnish speaking.

For example president Ms. Halonen has suggested several times to the Finns that they had to speak Swedish in stead of Finnish. And as an example,just a year ago Finnish People's Pension Institution (Kela) sent to c. 200 000 Finnish househoulds a letter where it adviced the addressees not to speak Finnish but Swedish to the officers of the public service!

-The official bilingualism of the state is a sort of "state religion" allthought it is just a juridical state of affairs and does not meet the reality of Finland.

-Political-economical olicarchy tries with the help of juridics to force the reality to something else like in former Soviet-Union. (I envy Ukraine in ourdays. They are far ahead in democracy,because there the government changes in the true meaning of the word unlike in Finland)

-A Finn cannot graduate from the university without having successfully completed the obligatory Swedish language course which is a must in order to serve in a state byreaucracy. In other words every single university student is prepared to work at the public service!
(Lack of entrepreneurs among the university graduates is a well-known phenomena as a result of this policy)

That is the strategy of Finnish universities to meet the challenges of globalization and there is no autonomy of the universities in the question.

-It is illigal throughout the entire education system to study any other language in stead of Swedish for the Finnish speaking pupils and students!

-There is a limit in the liberalism among the Finnish decision makers and oligarchy.
They can tolerate marriage with the same sexes,freedom of religion,alternatives in the army service but there the liberalism ends if a Finn wants to study for example French,German,Russian,Spanish in stead of Swedish.

Just check the opinions of the president,educational decision makers,political elite,economical elite you will suprise. You will suprise the lack of liberalism in the question!

If my English is bad it is due the fact that I was not permitted to study English in stead of Swedish at the school at the 1960's. It was permitted only in the evening school because I studied in so called folk-school. Now the situation is better because the kids are permitted to study English in addition to Swedish. In my time compulsatory Swedish was "the world language" for the decision makers of the educational system. Luckily in my town,there was an evening school where I was permitted to study English. I could not start to study English before the age of 16 because it was the age limit for the evening school. And in the day school it was not permitted to change Swedish for English or any other language for that matter.

Posted by: A dissident | May 25, 2005 03:20 AM

"-It is illigal throughout the entire education system to study any other language in stead of Swedish for the Finnish speaking pupils and students!"

What? We study other languages too. It's true, there still is obligatory swedish lessons, but that is changing, I hope.

Posted by: Markus | May 25, 2005 03:40 AM

As a reply to Ossi's comments: "5) 1941. Finland did not ally itself with Germany. Finland was waging its own separate war with the Soviet Union;"

This is an opinion not a fact. Older generations of Finnish historians and politicians (as President Halonen showed a few weeks ago) cherish the idea of a separate war. This was a very convenient and politically correct way to explain why a democracy such as Finland could fight alongside Germany against the Soviet Union, which was backed by the western democracies.
However, Germany supplied Finland with arms, fuel and food. There were German forces participating the so-called separate war during the whole period 1941-44. Moreover, Luftwaffe's air support was instrumental in deterring the soviet counter-attack in 1944. Many younger Finnish historians and most non-Finnish historians consider that co-operation at this extensive level is an alliance. And it is perfectly comprehendable behavior on behalf of the Finnish government in 1941 to ally itself with Germany. The Finns had suffered from the Soviet invasion in 1939. Parts of the country had been ceded to the Soviet Union. In contrast, Hitler's Germany was at the height of its power. As a result, the best way to "buy insurance" against future Soviet incursions and reclaim the lost territories was to ally with Germany.

Posted by: Jani | May 25, 2005 04:05 AM

It is a fact that 95% of Finns speak Finnish as our first language. We Finns are proud of our own culture and accomplishements. We are grateful to Russia for granting official status to our language, Finnish, during Russian rule. Sweden would never have given any such status, and in fact the racist Swedish People's Party continues to try to stifle Finnish, while promoting Swedishness to the whole country. That is plainly stated in their goal: "strong Swedishness".

To say that Swedishness is an "essential part" of Finnish identity is simply wrong and is a lie perpetuated by the elitists and members of Swedish people's party. These lying elitists are spreading false and racist propaganda that Finns cannot be civilized or cultured unless they first learn Swedish. They are lying that Finland is a bi-lingual country. How can a country be bilingual if 95% of the populations speaks Finnish and only 5% Swedish? This is ridiculous. Clearly it is bilingual only on the lawbooks, and the lawbooks will soon be changed.

For Marja Aho, trying to frame a human rights crime as "cultural diversity" is misleading, to say the least.

It is sick. If you compare aspects of the ongoing "swedification" of Finland with previous South African apartheid policies you will find many similarities.

Poll after poll, for over ten years, have shown that about 70% of the Finnish population oppose compulsory swedish language for our children.

Compulsory swedish is a thorn in Finlands side. But the few remaining corrupt elite, in the Swedish people's party, are struggling to keep it there.

Posted by: Anti-apartheid | May 25, 2005 04:25 AM

Hi Markus. Do you know what is "in stead of". It is indeed against the law to study *in stead of Swedish* any other language.
You don't simply get your degree and it concern all education from basic schools to the universities.

Mr. Henrik Lax who is a presidental candidate of Swedish political party just last winter threathened Finns of unemployment if they don't study Swedish.
That kind of threat-policy is everyday-futter against them who want freedom of choise in the language education.

Many home-pages are closed where the debate of the complusatory Swedish has flourised. Latest example of State Broadcasting Company,YLE,sencured the debate of it. Not to mention other actions against the debate of freedof of choice.

Some circles want to challenge the basic rights of freedom of speech.

Finnish shyness is often mentioned and the Finns are really shy to tell about this.
Read my first contribution.

Why persons who work for the freedom of choice in the language education are threathened by police!
As an example,my home-page which is against mandatory Swedish was ordered to be closed by a high level person who personally took contact to me.
I understood to close it in order to avoid loosing my job.

Posted by: A dissident | May 25, 2005 04:33 AM

Eevis - Im British, and Americans dont know that much about us either. Shared language, history, family ties etc So dont be too surprised if Finland is a bit harder still.

Posted by: Matt | May 25, 2005 04:48 AM

A sort of half-official policy of Finland is to demonize Russia ja glorify Sweden.

In fact Finland has never been at war against Russia. (They were Sweden's wars against Russia.)

Still the Finnish kids are thaught
*at schools* that Finland has had X-many "heroic wars" against Russia. So a democratical education system can also falsify history. In fact number of wars between Finland and Russia is xero.

It was first Russia who gave for the Finnish language,spoken by the vast majority of the Finns, equal rights in the education.

Under Swedish rule no Finnish education was promoted, just the contary, education in Finnish was oppposed. The oligarchy what Sweden left behind herself after leaving Finland continued similar politics
against the interests of Finns.

Sweden proper,what was left after 1809 of Sweden, continues similar politics against the Finnish speaking Swedes, as Sweden practised until 1809 in present area of Finland. (They are c. 315 000)

For example: Nokia was established as a result of Russia's regional policy where a company established by the River Nokia got tax-holiday for 50 years.

The teachers of mandatory Swedish language are in a similar postion in Finnish educational system as were the teachers of mandatory marxism-leninism in the educational system of Soviet Union. Both are the necessary condition to hold a vacancy in a state administration.

Finland is the easternmost member state of Europan Union and therefore many in the west normal phenomenas like parlamentarism in the western sense of the word are still unknown issues. Read my former contribution.

Last but least: As far as I understand, Washington Post is a high class newspaper. Its pages cannot be reserved only for hypocritical touristical advertisements and murmuring.

Posted by: A dissident | May 25, 2005 04:56 AM

Arvo Asiakas, you committed a dire sin, you dared to challenge the status quo. Eddie, for the most part you are correct. I'm glad to see that the Potemkin village erected by Pekka Himanen and supported by the earliest comment posters is finally coming down. Finland is a lovely country, but like everywhere else it is not without its flaws. And like most other European countries, the widely-praised welfare state has its dark underbelly.

Like some of the others here, I am an American with a Finnish spouse, and so I can only compare Finland to the U.S., as they are the two countries I know best.

One huge flaw that cannot be overstressed is the staggering unemployment rate, which presently stands at 8.7%. Just imagine, in the last U.S. presidential election, Bush came under intense criticism because American unemployment hovered around 6%. (Right now it's a mere 5.2%. Don't hear too much about it in the press now; I wonder why?) Finland (and most of the rest of Europe) would kill to have an unemployment rate that low. Sadly, unemployment has been so high for so long in Finland that it is more or less accepted as a fact of life.

But the thing that stands out most to any American visiting Finland is the overwhelming homogeneity of the country. I'm one of those who believe that it's actually one of Finland's strengths. It's certainly one of the chief reasons their welfare state has worked as well as it has thus far. It's also a principal reason why crime is relatively low.

But I fear that in time, it will break down the work ethic that most Finns have inherited from their parents, who grew up in harder times. And Finland will see increasing numbers go on the dole out of sheer laxity and opportunism.

This homogeneity is not only racial and ethnic, but philosophical and political as well. People not only look very similar, they think very similarly too. I'm generalizing, of course. But it's remarkable how hard it is to find a dissenting opinion from the status quo in Finland.

This is almost laughable in Himanen's responses. He frequently says, Finns all think this way, or they all believe that. No American would ever make such generalizations about political opinions across the country, as they are so diverse.

For example, regarding the death penalty, Himanen says, "Finland is strongly against death penalty, which is not part of our system." Yawohl, mein commandante! Would he mind citing a single public opinion poll to support this view? I've learned that in the case of many European countries that ban the death penalty, a majority of the population actually supports a death penalty. It's just one example of the huge gulf between the political elite and the average citizen that persists in most EU member-countries.

There are several other examples of Himanen's whistling past the graveyard of Finland's growing problems. How about this response to the issue of suicide? "We still have this but as I said, Finland is transforming greatly through the new culture generated by thing like Nokia, Linux, and HIM." Yes, Himanen, all suicidal Finns need do is listen to HIM. How about their album "Razorblade Romance"? Or their songs "Join Me in Death," Razorblade Kiss," and "Death is in Love With Us"? That'll cheer 'em right up. But wait, maybe Linux's Linus Torvalds will rescue them. Oops, he lives in the U.S. now.

Another laughable response from Himanen is regarding the coming demographic crisis in Finland. You know, how Finns aren't having enough kids (more to the point, they're not creating enough jobs) to support baby boomers who are going to retire soon and are ready to lap up those fat benefits they've been promised. Here's his answer:

"Finland is facing this challenge. But it's possible to solve. We introduced the concept of 'a virtuous cycle' in my book with Castells. If we are able to expand the kind of creativity that we've seen with Nokia or HIM, then we get enough income to continue to fund the welfare state, which provides a basis for getting new innovators on a socially sustainable basis."

[Yes, that's the answer: more bands like HIM! They'll finance the baby boomers' retirement.'

"Another thing is to learn from America: Finland needs to open its borders more for people and encourage an entrepreneurial culture."

The problems, as others here have pointed out, are: 1) Massive red tape hampers anybody trying to start a new business in Finland (I've seen this from Finns I know); and 2) When unemployment is at near 9% and you offer immigrants generous social benefits, bringing in more immigrants isn't going to boost your economy any, if anything it's more likely to sink it more.

Eddie's remark about the effect of a welfare state on a nationality's charitable instinct is dead-on. My Finnish wife frequently remarks about how she is amazed at all the charities and other volunteer organizations that Americans like to participate in, to a much greater degree than Finns do. Now, most Finns would say that it is natural that these groups would be more prevalent in the U.S., as America has less generous government services. And yet can't you see how such a mindset would change a people's attitude toward volunteerism and helping one's neighbor, over time?

It's good that others have pointed out the problems with the Finnish health care system, which many liberal Americans claim to envy. They haven't been educated about the long wait lists to see specialists, which can take several months, or the co-pay fees (like in the much-reviled HMO), or how many Finns pay big bucks to find better care outside the state-provided system. Most Finns and Americans both are also not aware of the safety net that is available to Americans without health insurance. I for one know all about it, as I had a serious illness at a time when I had no insurance. And I was taken care of by the state without charge. Unless an American is thrust into a similar situation, however, they just believe the propaganda they read in the papers.

And yes, most Finns, in my experience, share the same hypocrisy regarding "diversity" and "multiculturalism." By day all mouth the politically correct platitudes, but get any Finn drunk one night (not much arm-twisting necessary) and he will almost always rail against gypsies, Russians and other immigrants. This is true among young and old alike.

The shyness of the average Finn is no myth, it's a reality. Getting a Finn to talk is like pulling teeth -- especially if you're a foreigner. Before my first visit, my Finnish wife told me that most Finns know English, they're very curious about foreigners, etc., etc. But I found it quite difficult to carry on a two-way conversation. In America, I'm considered a rather shy person. But in Finland, I felt like the proverbial bull in a china shop (albeit Arabia china). Of course, the longer you know most Finns, the more open they will become. But it can be very frustrating for most Americans, even this usually shrinking violet.

I don't want anyone to assume that because I criticize certain aspects of Finland that I dislike it. No, I am very fond of Finland. I am especially fond of my wife. It's a wonderful country. My criticisms are meant to help Finns to see their problems from the perspective of an outsider, and hopefully to help them see their way to some solutions. Maybe you don't care to hear an outsider's views; fine. You're obviously welcome to run your country how you want to. That's what's so great about our differences: America is the way it is because it's what the people here generally (though not universally) prefer. Same with Finland, I'm sure.

One last point. Furious student wrote: "In Finland they do teach religion as a subject for a whole 12 years. The whole point of the education is not to make Christians - The whole point is to teach people about all the religions in the world equally. Of their pros and cons. Everyone can choose what to believe freely. This, I believe, is the very opposite the the conservative US system."

I'm not sure what disinformation "furious student" is listening to. But they do not teach religion in public U.S. schools. I would bet any Finn one million Euros that Finnish students pray more in Finnish schools than American students do in public U.S. schools. Heck, American schools aren't even allowed to have Christmas parties or Christmas trees. I've been to Finland at Christmas, I know how ingrained it is in the culture. Personally, I think that's a wonderful thing; don't lose it, like we are rapidly doing here in the U.S.

Posted by: Alistair | May 25, 2005 05:30 AM

Arvo - you are correct in that you pay personal "kirkollisvero" (church tax)only if you "belong" to the church; but what I was referring to with the professions is, that enterpreneurs like you who pay the 26% "yhteisövero" (community tax) which is in part funding the congregations, and you cannot "opt out" of paying the tithes to the church as a business. So when you pay "yhteisövero" you are in part supporting the local ev-lut congregation regardless you are a free-thinker or not.

Posted by: Hank W. | May 25, 2005 05:47 AM

Concerning Finland's role in the WWII,two points:

-Soviet Union agreed a separate peace with Finland the year 1945. Is it not an evidence of a separate war against SU?

-Finland had 4 million inhabitants.

Do you realli think that Finland had to fight *at the same time* against both totalitarian states,Nazi-Germany and Soviet Union who had together perhaps 200 000 million inhabitants!

Even USA was not capable to do that.

In stead,Finland indeed fought against both totalitarian states. First SU and then Nazi-Germany,but not at the same time.

Do people indeed demand that such tiny nation like Finland had to fight against both of them at the same time!!!

C'mon. Some sense.

Posted by: A dissident | May 25, 2005 05:52 AM

There are serious flaws in Finnish systems in relation with language politics.

92% on finns are finnish speaking. 5% are swedish speaking. Each finnish speaking finn has to study 3-6 years of swedish before gaining any kind of school diploma. In addition there are mandatory swedish language test in all universities.

Swedish speakers have similar system but the trick is that basically everyone is bilingual with finnish language at the
same level than finnish speakers. There are quotas for swedish speakers into universities which are almost as large as the swedish speaking matriculation exam graudates. Sometimes the quotas are in form of language test that only finnish speakers have to take. In result the system is very unfair for a finnish speaker.

Also some history. Finland was quite severely colonialized for few hundreds of years and these so called Finn-Swedes
as they call themselves have absolutely nothing to do with sweden. They are finnish families that had to change their
name, identity and language to swedish. But by representing themselves as Swedes they demand the rights of immigrants
the same way as Swedish Finns which are real immigrants, not just people who have changed their names.

Then for the politics. As mentioned in other writings there is the politica freak known as "Swedish peoples party" which has for some reason an eternal place in Finlands governent. The same party has been a member of the government since
70's and elections in Finland are basically a system to elect new partners for this party.

A.O.Freudenthal lived in late 1800's. He was a good old fashioned racial theorist who very openly declared that
finns are lower race than swedes. The Swedish peoples party still today holds Freudenthal as their spiritual
father and it reads in their homepage with these words.

And the spirit lives on. In Porvoo there is a school called Lyseonpuiston koulu where it is forbidden to speak a word
of finnish language. Any pupil caught in doing this will be threatened to be thrown out of the school. In Pietarsaari
there is a scool called Ristikarin koulu. In 2003 it was to be divided between finnish and swedish speaking children
but again the Swedish peoples party tried their everything to throw the finnish speaking children out of their own school
because they see finnish language in general as detrimental to any swedish speaker.

Nowday there is a new language law. It states that in any public post the skill to speak swedish is the number on priority.
Imagine this in a place where 92% speak finnish. And the law applies to the whole country.

Language politics is a very forbidden subject in Finnish society and anyone speaking openly angainst in is in real threat of losing their jobs. Few days ago a famous finnish writer Arto Paasilinna
informed that he is going to publish critics of the language politics in international writers conference called PEN. Yesterday there were demands to ban all his books from swedish speaking schools. So this is how things look in finland.

Posted by: Help | May 25, 2005 05:54 AM

Thanks for your articles, which give new perspectives also to us Finns!

About those posts above by Finns who have never lived in North America - I suggest you ignore them. Every Finn has an access to the net, so you'll get lots of irrelevant crap of some simplistic agenda (like hating Swedish language).

I happen to recogize one writer - Hank W (hello Henry), who is an outstanding and intelligent writer of forum for English speakers living in Finland. http://www.finlandforum.org/bb/

I'm really enjoing your articles!

Posted by: Markku | May 25, 2005 05:55 AM

One very special thing of Finnish public word. Any and literally any criticism is instantly labeled as "senseless hating of swedish language". About a year ago there was a discussion about language politics in government controlled otakantaa.fi. From about 1000 postings about 950 screamed for change to the present situation. Nothing happened of course and the site has been closed down since and Finlands EU-Member of parliament, also member of the Swedish peoples party declared that the writers of otakantaa.fi are mentally ill. The same guy did threaten all finns of losing their jobs if they dont't learn swedish language.

So Washington Post, if you recieve a ton of mail saying that there are senseless haters of minority of insane haters of swedish language then know that things are not that simple.

Posted by: Help | May 25, 2005 06:12 AM

Dear Reader, please not take what "A dissident" says about Finland, its political status regarding "a particular political party" and multilingual issues as true.

His knowledge comes from the 60's, by his own admission. The schooling today is quite different. In 1971 I was able to select between english and swedish as my FIRST foreign language at school on the third grade and onwards. I selected english. Swedish became next automatically on the next grade. Additionally, from then on, I could have opted for german, french, russia - even latin!!

Swedish is the second official language of Finland. Constitutionally every finnish citizen is entitled to receive public services in one of the official languages of Finland, finnish, swedish or Saami. This is why swedish is taught at school by default. (Even that obligation is being removed now.)

"A dissident":s comments are strongly exaggerated, if not completely untrue and very much look like those of an extreme right-wing, ultra nationalist pigot. There is a war-time, german-based abbreviation apt for such opinions, but I will leave that out from here...

Posted by: Jukka Lindgren | May 25, 2005 06:13 AM

Markku wrote:"About those posts above by Finns who have never lived in North America - I suggest you ignore them. "

"you'll get lots of irrelevant crap of some simplistic agenda (like hating Swedish language)."

Mr. Kaiser, the above are two prime examples of tactics used by the swedish apartheidists. Trying to supress the discussion, and clouding the issue. In Finland supression is in the form of active censorhip. Unfortunately for the apartheidists, this won't work with your American newspapers.

In Finland the issue is clouded through accusations of "hating Sweden." Anyone who opposes the crime of compulsory Swedish-teaching to the whole populuation is said to be a racist against Swedes and Sweden. In reality it is the Swedish People's party who are the most openly racist of all. Investigate their founder, Alex Freudenthal and his opinions about Finns. Investigate what Ida Asplund, the chairperson of Swedish Society has said about Finns. Investigate the threat that Henry Lax, a presidential candidate of the Swedish people's party, has made against Finnish young people in the Finnish parliament.

Why would Markku try to suppress and cloud this important issue? The issue is very important to us Finns financially, politically, and culturally. Why try to insult those who wish to openly discuss it?

The issue of distorted politics and language apartheid in Finland is rising more and more to the surface in Finland all the time.

I hope Washington Post will investigate the facts, e.g., forbidding Finnish speaking in Pietarsaari. Also, unlike Markku, I won't suggest that you ignore his posts or any which favor swedification of the Finnish people. Instead, I hope you will note that no valid justification for swedification will ever be presented by them, they will never address the crimes against Finnish people in e.g. Pietarsaari or Aland, and they will use ad-hominem attacks to try to explain their position.
They are the common communication from Swedish apartheidist criminals, who masquerade as Finns.

Posted by: Anti-apartheid | May 25, 2005 06:39 AM

"It's weird that you mention maternity leave being 3 years in a negative sense, sure it can be a stupid situation for the employer when there are cases of mothers popping out an unit once every couple of years, but the whole idea is that wimen don't have to choose between children and career."

That is the way that it's supposed to work, but in reality Finnish companies are starting to realize that high-level competitiveness and a policy of tending to everyone's needs cannot co-exist. There are more stories in the news these days about pregnant employees being fired, and potential employees asking applicants if they plan to have any more children, because if they do it's much more expensive and risky for the company. These actions are supposed to be illegal, but they are happening more often regardless. Also, one sneaky way that companies have avoided this burden is to have the "employee" set up a business, from which the company buys services, sort of like a freelancer or subcontrator. In this way, the "employee" becomes responsible for their own welfare, and if things go wrong, they have little to fall back on. This is one reason why entrepreneurship is not very well respected among Finnish women of childbearing age, because they fear the loss of benefits, and a reason why Finns in general are among the least likely to want to become entrepreneurs when compared to other Europeans. I should know- I have a small business here in Finland and in the beginning a lot of people tried to convince me that I would be doing myself a disservice by becoming an entrepreneur.

Posted by: Caroline | May 25, 2005 06:48 AM

Damn, well said Alistar!

- Phil
www.finlandforthought.net

Posted by: Phil | May 25, 2005 06:51 AM

"The schooling today is quite different"

Exaclty the same. 3-6 years of swedish in a country that is one of the most monolingual countries in the world. The laws declaring Finland as bilingual were made almost a hundred years ago and today thery are nothing more than a joke. It does not make us laugh because it gives very uneuqal future for diffrerent language groups.

"Swedish is the second official language of Finland"

Here is the typical phrase which should silence all criticism. 5 million monolingual finnish speakers and 250.000 biligual, very bilingual, finnish-swedish speakers. By this all kinds of laws are defended resulting in unequal situations.

"an extreme right-wing, ultra nationalist pigot"

Here again is the very dangerous method of labelling political dissidents and it may very well resulting in losing ones job. In politics criticism against the Swedish peoples party is a political suicide because the party will be again in the government. Finnish speaker gets almost instant nazi-label for example saying that i want to decide which foreign languages i want to study (swedish is in practice totally foreign language to finnish speakers)

The main newspaper of Finland, Helsingin Sanomat, has a policy of total silence in language politics exluding some irrelevant news. Also the government television media has a similar policy and if one wants to know anything about the Swedish peoples party the only information can be obtained from swedish section of government media or newspapers written in swedish.

So anyone disagreeing with language politics is very alone and very likely to get some nasty labers such as racist, insane, hater. Even though the only problem is finnish speakers own right to decide their OWN language selections.

Posted by: Help | May 25, 2005 06:52 AM

As a sidenote: "Finns joke all Swedish men are gay" - its actually in Denmark and Norway Swedish men are called "bøsser" as well, so I think its more of a "nordic male thing" calling Swedes gay than just Finnish. I mean if all your 3 neigbours call you gay maybe theres some cultural thing involved?

Posted by: Hank W. | May 25, 2005 07:04 AM

Great blog, hopefully you'll enjoy your stay.

The only problem I see in Finland that like you mentioned, it really is a homogeneous country. While this is a good thing for most of the time, it can be a curse sometimes.

Like in politics, where Helsinki metropolitan area is treated usually pretty unfairly by other parts of the country, where farming is still thought to be the top-notch job.

Coming to think of it, better not think about it.

Keep up the good work!

Posted by: Mikko Grönroos | May 25, 2005 07:16 AM

I think "amis" is = "chav" in the UK. To the US its a bit harder to compare, a bit like "trailer trash" but not so blatant.

Its a lot to do with lifestyle. And remember Finland is "small" populationwise; so what is "amis" in Vantaa is definitely not how/what "amis" is in Jyväskylä.
(For a Vantaa teen kids from Jyväskylä would be "country hicks" anyhow.)

Posted by: Hank W. | May 25, 2005 07:17 AM

The Swedish peoples party holds Axel Olof Freudenthal as their spiritual father

http://www.sfp.fi/fi/page.php?pageid=44

Some of his principles:

"Because of their race and origins Finns were unable to create any own culture before Swedish conquest"

"We know from histori that peoples who belonc to the turanic race have no special abilities in independent progress in civilization or farming"

"No other people in europe have shown so little tendency in independent status than the finnish or turanic race"

"As for the intelligence the finns can not match to any other people"

"The Swedish farmer consideres his Finnish counterpart as lower being. A sort of imbeccil that is behind him in every ways"

Above statements are listed from L.A.Puntilas doctoral thesis. Now one must rememer that even it is very widely proven that the swedish speaking minority is in fact finnish families that had to change their name, identity and language, the Swedish peoples party insists that ther are Swedes and not Finns. This results in confusion in both groups.

One real confusion is the fact that during colonial times publishing in finnish language was forbidden and anyone doing anything in the society had to swedify their names and learn swedish. Nowdays they are wrongly decipited as being part of this finn-swede "race".

So this is hurting the average finn because they are being laughed at because all great men from past are said to be "finn swedes" and not "finns". This is of course not true but less than a month ago a swedish teacher from Kokkola declared being civilized equals being swedish speaking.

Posted by: Help | May 25, 2005 07:21 AM

to arvo,
"Hi Markus. Do you know what is "in stead of". It is indeed against the law to study *in stead of Swedish* any other language."

Sorry, didn't notice that. Yes, you're right about that.

Posted by: Markus | May 25, 2005 07:34 AM

Swedish Popular Party gave Freudenthal-honorary medal the year 2004 to former member of parliament Mr. Gunnar Jansson.

Gunnar Jansson is famous for his statement in the State television (seen by my own eyes):"The discrimination of the Finnish speaking persons is correct if it is done friendly". (But "black" for "Finnish speaking" and you understand as an American perhaps what it is all about)

Concerning mandatory Swedish. Still once more: "It is forbidden to study any other langauge in stead of Swedish."

Mandatory Swedish is politics,not pedagogy.
The arguments for it are completely political,not pedagogical.

Finnish educational system has invented a political term for Swedish. It is called by the educational bureaucrats "a native language education" in spite of the fact thatit is pedagogically completely foreign language to the Finns.

Funny thing is that its symbol is the flag of a foreign country-Sweden! The home-page of Ministry of Education also used to have as a symbol for "the native language" the flag of Sweden. It was removed away when people made fun of Ministry's politics of "a native language" with the help of Swedish flag;)

The aim is: In addition to own mother tongue Finnish, two languages which one can freely choose.

The one who demands that is called a faschist by those who are for mandatory Swedish. Thus the freedom of choice is turned to be "faschism" and obligation is turned to be "freedom."

That is Finland!

Before internet-age the sencorship of Finnish media was so tight that the debate of basic freedoms was very limited. Now internet has opened the gates and the Finnish nomenklatura cannot prevent Finns to discuss of their own issues.

Let us taken an example. State Broadcasting Company organized still about 10 years ago a tv-debate of the mandatory Swedish. Guess who were invited to the tv-studio. The Swedish speaking persons and the Finnish speaking persons,the objects of the system had to sit in the audience.

No one saw anything strange in such a journalism because State Broadcasting Company represents state.

If that was enough. A Finn can critizise the fact the Italian leading political party,Berlusconi's party has an own tv-channel.

Swedish Popular Party has also an own tv-channel among the channels of State Broadcasting Company. The only political party who has an own tv-channel. The party has a permanent mandate in the government regardless of the results of the election!

Posted by: A dissident | May 25, 2005 07:39 AM

The Swedish peoples party has an own TV-channel, quotas to the other TV-channels resulting that any day at the prime time at least one of the two finnish speaking channels is actually swedish speaking.

Two radio stations, several newspapers in swedish and the fear of being labeled as nazi or hater prevents other media from disagreeing.

The Swedish peoples party's parlment members have also some privileges. MP Mikko Elo asked last year why the Swedish peoples party mixes up with the finnish speaking education. MP Christina Gestrin yelled that Mikko Elo vomiting bile over the minority. Usually everything that MP's say is published on the parliaments internet-page but for this occasion it was censored and only published in swedish.

Posted by: Help | May 25, 2005 07:53 AM

Alistair, good points there, but...

Even not a big fan of Rifkin, he has argued quite convincingly that there's some flaws in comparing EU's (and Finland's too) and USA's unemployment rates.

"(Right now it's a mere 5.2%. Don't hear too much about it in the press now; I wonder why?) Finland (and most of the rest of Europe) would kill to have an unemployment rate that low."

This is not a rhetorical question...
If Finland had as many prisoners as USA, I wonder what our unemployment rates were?

Posted by: Markus | May 25, 2005 07:53 AM

Dear Robert G. Kaiser and Lucian Perkins,

First of all, thank you for visiting Finland and letting the world find
out more about our country. I'm very flattered about you visiting here and
especially my home city, which is Jyväskylä. The gallery you have on the
internet is very nice. Just one thing poped up that was a bit wrong. You
wrote that bicycles are popular in Jyväskylä and that is right as
thousands of students can't afford any other transportation. You also
wrote that bikes are rarely locked here. That's wrong! I don't know where
you've got that information (maybe just expecting us to be so honest? how
fattering :)) but my view is, that almost all the bikes on the streets are
always locked. That is because bikes are expensive in Finland and they get
stolen easily. You'de lose your bike very soon, if you left it unlocked!
Especially in the center, and on a busy weekend like last one.

That's about it.
Have a great time on the rest of your tour!
Hopefully you get a lot of interesting experiencies!

Sincerely,
Liisa Välijärvi
student from Jyväskylä
(lijovali@cc.jyu.fi)

Posted by: Liisa | May 25, 2005 07:58 AM

About the Finnish health care system:
I was too laze to read through all the posts so dont know if anyone mentioned this: there was a study sometime ago, including several countries including the u.s., in which the finnish health care system was found to have the biggest gap between the quality of the care between the rich and the poor.

There is a good private system and a non-working state system which co-exist. Simply put: doctors are greedy for money so they prefer to go to the private system and only idealists, of whom there are not many and the lesser skilled work in the public system. One has to wait long, half a year for dentist (so have 5 bad teeth, 2.5 years theyre ok), even longer for some operations etc. One also has to pay even in the public system if one has income, to some, the money is too much, many old people cannot afford medication. Apparently there are working and free systems throughout europe but not so in finland.

Posted by: Samppa | May 25, 2005 07:59 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4481261.stm

INCARCERATION RATES
US: 726 people per 100,000

Posted by: Markus | May 25, 2005 08:00 AM

"is right as
thousands of students can't afford any other transportation"

-It also is safer to use a bicycle.

"f you left it unlocked" (bike)

- Every year at least one has been stolen from me, despite the u-lock.

Posted by: Samppa | May 25, 2005 08:03 AM

Mr Himanen gives too black and white view about Finland in some cases. First, he said that there is no controversy about abortion in Finland. That´s not truth. There is a legal right for abortion in Finland but many Finnish think that abortion is wrong. There has been also discussion in publicity what is an approvable final time for abortion. Mr Himanen is also wrong when saying that Finnish politicians never say "God bless". For examble former president of Finland, Mr. Martti Ahtisaari said so in traditional New Year´s speech of president.

Posted by: tuomas | May 25, 2005 08:10 AM

Fortunately there are only a few fanatics Swedish-possessed, like 'A Dissident' or 'Help'. There can be the same person behind these nicknames.

Finnish parliament voted 179-3 about the new language law in 2003. These 'fennomaniacs', as many call them, spread the word that the parliament was pribed by the Swedes.

The chairman of Finnish Alliance says there are many reasons for Finnish people to hate Sweden, Swedish and Swedishness.

Posted by: Urja | May 25, 2005 08:18 AM

There were comments earlier about immigration. Looks like Finland has enough issues with Finland/Sweden without adding any new groups to the mix.

Posted by: Mr X | May 25, 2005 08:20 AM

Dear Urja. Please do not label other writers as haters or liers. Please "allow" open an discussion.

Posted by: Help | May 25, 2005 08:27 AM

Thanks for a great blog! As a Finnish expat in central Europe this almost makes me cry ;) This is definitely something to show to my colleagues and friends when they wan't to know something about Finland.

In Monty Python's words:

Finland, Finland, Finland,
The country where I quite want to be,
Your mountains so lofty,
Your treetops so tall.
Finland, Finland, Finland.
Finland has it all.

Finland has it all.

Posted by: Monty | May 25, 2005 08:31 AM

A few days ago there was a news item in
Helsingin Sanomat (Finlands biggest daily newspaper),I don't remember it word to word
but it reported that a squirrel had died
because someone accidentally cut down it's
hometree.We are a nation in mourning.

Posted by: Mauri | May 25, 2005 08:33 AM

Thanks for the great articles on Finland. I have lived in Finland for about 10 years and have come to appreciate the overall quality of life that Finland provides. Finnish society has flaws but the rest of the world can certainly learn a lot from the Finnish way of life.

Posted by: Ro | May 25, 2005 08:48 AM

Urja,can you reveal what is the definition of a civilized person by the standards of Swedish Popular Party.

I am sure that the Americans want to laugh,too.

Posted by: A dissident | May 25, 2005 08:49 AM

Urja,don't be so shy because you are Finlander.Unlike me who is Finn.

So who a civilized person according to the standards of Swedish Popular Party:)

Posted by: A Dissident | May 25, 2005 08:54 AM

As readers might have noticed some extremists here are trying to promote the idea that the small Swedish-speaking minority is harassing the Finnish speakers. The Truth is that Finland is bilingual (by constitution) and owes most of its' success to the multicultural society. The Swedish-speaking minority founded almost all of Finland's culture and businesses. Some individuals have a very hard time accepting this. Swedish speakers developed even the Finnish language (wrote it down and created the grammar). It was an effort to break free from the old motherland Sweden.

Usually the Finns' knowledge of the Swedish language correlates very closely with his success in life. I guess stupid people neither learn Swedish nor anything else. Some people have a hard time accepting that they are not very successful. Then there are of course politicians who try to make an issue out of this language question. These politicians have never succeeded in elections. Swedish speakers have to study Finnish and Finnish speakers Swedish.

It's ridiculous to say that the 5% Swedish speaking minority is a threat to the Finnish language. Everyone can for them selves think how much sense such a claim makes.

Finland is a great country. What makes it so great is the people. The people is one, but speaks two different languages. Most people still know the other language as well. Most people even speak excellent English and some fourth language (mostly German or French). How many one-language countries have succeeded better?

Posted by: Landet heter Finland | May 25, 2005 08:55 AM

Caroline, that was a beautifully written essay on life of women in Finland. It is very true. My wife is from Kouvola and her mother refuses to let the men do any work in the house. Outdoors work is another matter. And I can't count how many times I have seen a couple arrive at a store, the girl pays, packs the bags, carries the bags and beer to the car and drives the boyfriend. Finnish women are a man's dream come true. But of course, I love my wife for many other reasons. The home-made pizza is a big one.

Arvo, Hyvin Hauska!! That was halarious! Yes, saying something bad about finland is practically illegal here. Heck, its almost heresy as you can see from Markus' reactions. But I completely understand Markus. Nobody likes to hear their country be severly criticized. I live through it practically every day in this anti-american country. But life goes on.. and soon I'll be moving back to California. Not for the money, but for the quality of life.

Hey, is Tony Halme that wrestler that was elected to your parlament and he recently shot somebody and himself, but survived then became a born-again christian?

Alistair... can you believe I was actually feeling guilty for attacking the "Potemkin village erected by Pekka Himanen"? yeah, I felt bad after reading those angry responses from finns.. I felt as if I had insulted my own wife and her family.. but at the same time I felt that things had to be said, but maybe I could have put a little more sugar on the words. Some guy forgot to put his parking break on when he parked his car and so his car rolled down a hill and into my car as I entered the parking lot, so I may have been in a bad mood.

When I was looking for work in Tampere, the employment lady told me the regional unemployment rate was 15%.

Multiculturalism is dying in Europe. The Nazi's may make a come-back.

I know many finns that support the death penalty for child killers.

It is SO REFRESHING to hear a finn speak the truth. They hold it inside too much. Oh God, that was just so good, I'm going to save it to my archives.

This blog has become VERY educational for me and I thank everyone for positive and negative comments! Returning to Finland for visits will always be nice and I know I will cherish the moments. but more than 2 months and I'll go crazy.. hehehe

Heippa!

Posted by: Eduardo Hernandez | May 25, 2005 09:04 AM

Just a short note: Abortion in the USA and in Finland means something completely different - Finland has restrictions on who can get one, when it can be done, and how it can be done. I didn't understand the fuzz about abortion in the US until I found out these differences. I am pretty sure that many Finns who accept abortion in Finland would be against it in the US. That is why there is no controversy in the issue in Finland. It's all about details.

Posted by: K | May 25, 2005 09:09 AM

Intresting reading this blog is.
And I sense many great thought.

But I think the writers should study our WWII history more in order to get in to the Finnish culture better.

WWII history is stil very near to us Finns because everybodys father or grandfather like mine, fought there and lost something.

Example recent big voting about "The Biggest Finn" ended up that in top4 there were on places 1., 2. and 4. war herous
(360 000 Finn voted)
( http://www.yle.fi/suuretsuomalaiset/tulosseuranta/ )

And another intresting gallup was done recently witch result was that ~80% of finns would defend our country and try preserve our way of life, with cost of their own life, even if the outlook of war would be "not good".

Posted by: StudentJanne | May 25, 2005 09:10 AM

Could you tell which places are you planning to explore in Finland? There are so many different kinds of areas, like west-east Finland, northern Finland, Ahvenanmaa, or the only "city" here, Helsinki (large enough to call a city :)

perhaps you could follow some people's work day in a hospital or at office or at bus or some other place? market squares (or malls, like itäkeskus in helsinki) are a good places to spot people.

in helsinki, remember to ride the metro (yes, it's wonderfully simple) and tram, take the day trip to tallinn like all finns (or visit Ahvenanmaa?), remember that there are people living in Suomenlinna (it's not only a unesco world heritage site but a "living village"), go to see houses in front of parliament house, they are going to tear them away to build a new music house in the middle of town, go to see kamppi, where they are building a bus terminal, and noticed that all the busses won't fit there.. over the terminal, there will be luxus-priced apartments, without any luxury. nice places are also hietaniemi beach, central park, seurasaari island museum, zoo, islands around helsinki...

Posted by: tj | May 25, 2005 09:11 AM

Dear Mr. Robert G. Kaiser

We hope you enjoy your visit in Finland. Your story is very interesting.

One of the most interesting and not-understandable question in Finland is our government's "relation" to the ceded Karelia.

Practilly 98 % of all politicians are even afraid of speaking of the return of Karelia. We were not guilty for the wars, but our politicians still behave as they were. Ex. president Koivisto says that polls and discussions of the return may even cause war between Finland and Russia.

ProKarelia is an NGO. We want to get Karelia back, peacefully, on the win-win princile with Russia. About 40 % of the Finnish people support this idea. My fair guess is that in the fall about 50 % want to get Karelia back. - But still not the politicians.

Have you ever earlier met politicians who do not want even to speak of an important matter, when there are lots of voters and also the media is interested? This sounds mad for me.

President Putin condemned Molotov-Ribbentrop pact of 1939. He spoke of the Baltic countries. But Finland was a part of this pact, also. Senator Richard Lugar knows the Karelian dilemma.

Welcome to have a cup of coffe and discussion over this matter.

Have a great time in Finland! Best regards

Veikko

Posted by: Veikko Saksi | May 25, 2005 09:18 AM

Himanen has a little Helsinki-biased view on certain issues. Let me correct him little:

* Prayer in schools, and the separation of church and state generally? Does religion play any role in public life?

A. No prayer in school.
-But there are, it varies from school to school. It's not an issue.

A:You would never hear a Finnish politician say "God bless Finland."
-But we have heared. Both presidents Ahtisaari and Halonen end their New Years address in thos words. Yet this is not an issue.

A:Finns want these things to be separated.
-Somehow we still have official State Churches. Yes, generally Finns keep spiritual life private, but state and church are one.

* The death penalty?

A. Finland is strongly against death penalty, which is not part of our system.
-Only on official level. According to polls, almost half of the population would have death penalty in law.

* Gun control? Can citizens own rifles? Pistols?

A. We don't think that owning a gun is a constitutional right or that it would have something to do with individual's freedom.
-That might be a urban view, but we should remember that Finland has more guns per capita thau USA. There will be a revolution if government try abolish guns.

A: The Finnish thinking is that the number of guns is linked to having a more violent society.
-This is almost bullshit and very urban view. Majority of Finns are familiar with guns (mostly rifles, not pistols) and hunting is very popular hobby among rural men. Over 80% of males are trained to use rifle by compulsory military service.

In general I'd say Himanen has liberal political view which gives this bias to his stories. It's not big and most of these views were agreeable, but there were some things that he doesn't know anything. For example his critique-less support for multiculturalism and immigration isn't shared by Finns, which is also the reason for homogenous population (and good PISA!)

Posted by: Teemu | May 25, 2005 09:37 AM

Regarding religion and schools. I admit that too many years may have passed since I attended comprehensive school in Finland to make a statement regarding whether prayers are being recited in the beginning of the day. I do remember having to sing a religious hymn at the end of each spring celebration (Suvivirsi) and the trips to church before the Christmas and Summer holidays).

I don't think Eddie should be too surprised of her wife's ability to recite prayers. I have not been to church too often myself and yet can recite most prayers at weddings etc. I put this down to the fact that I attended, at the age of 14, a confirmation camp, as did most of the people I knew from school, and most people I have met since. Confirmation Camps are pretty pivotal in the lives of 14 year olds (normally kids attend btw the 8th and 9th grades) as an opportunity to spend 10 days in a closed environment with people the same age. Lots of people met their first girl/boyfriends there and a considerable number got drunk for the first time after the actual confirmation party. So in other words, religous or not, lots of teens elect to participate in these camps and it is there where one has to memorise lots of prayers and biblical 'facts'. And my uneducated assumption would be that it is from these days that most adult non church goers learned the most common prayers.

I have been living in Britain for the past 9 years, but go back home 3 times a year. It is amazing how much my town (Helsinki) has changed in this time. The most visible of these changes to me is the more multicultural vibe in the town, which I love.

While lots of things could of course be better, there is something about the silent Finnish efficiency which I miss. I mean, while back home people's strictness, quietness and the need to teach fellow beings irritates the h*ll out of me, but then again I find myself to be harbouring these same features when negotiating my way in the British society.

I am looking forward to moving back home 'any time soon', be it 1, 10 or 20 years. While I love my life here, there are many moments when I miss Finland and my close circles so much it hurts. I find this blog and the comments to be just the remedy I need at the moment to cure my home sickness.

Posted by: Päivi | May 25, 2005 09:40 AM

My God, I knew finns didn't like Swedes but I didn't know it ran this deep. More things to ask my wife.

And Markus.. hate the US all you want. Regarding incarceration rates in the US. When you break the law in the states, you will do time. Unlike law breakers in europe. A rapist recently got 2 years jail sentence in finland. But we all know he will not serve those 2 years. In the states, rapists get 7 years and maybe more! And they serve it! Did you know that in europe you can kill a few people and finish your jail time in about 10 years or less? Sorry.. I just don't think that's right.

And about locking things up. EVERYBODY locks their doors and bikes and cars up in Finland. You can go as far north as possible and everyone locks everything up. Not like in small towns in the US where people don't lock anything. Finland is as safe as oregon, wyoming, washington.. Utah..

And Markus, you mentioned slums before. Seriously. If everything is so great in Finland, why are there homeless people in Helsinki? Why are there guys living in the streets standing next to a trash can burning something to keep warm as they do in New York City? Helsinki only has 500,000 people and they already have this homeless problem. And you criticize the US (though I'm sure you mean the big cities) for the way they are handling their situation in their metropolis? Shame......

Posted by: Eduardo Hernandez | May 25, 2005 09:42 AM

WOW, 24 hours and I see tons of new replies - 70% of it is about Swedish language and it's current effect on Finnish culture. What a joke, honestly.
... like Finland doesn't have other problems to deal with. I mean .... WHO CARES ! Swedish is mainly spoke in south, you go up north and you will have difficult time finding someone who speaks it or cares about speaking it. There are much worse things that country of ~5M people should be focusing one. Healthcare, unemployment and encouraging people to start maore businesses and creating jobs. Swedish language, mandatory or not, existing in Finnish culture or not, is not going to do much with the well-being of Finland.

I love my native Finland, all good and bad things that come with it. Mostly my love come sfrom 70's and 80's when it still was Finland with it's own culture. Todays Helsinki is like a mini-America. I can't wait to head up north, which still has some of its own identity left.

More about unemployment - it might be ~10% down south in Helsinki sector, but you go to smaller towns (North or South), we are talking about 15-20% range. Lots of free loaders drinking beer in the local gas-station no interest to try to fix the situation because the well doing hard working business ownes (via government) is buying his/her next beer. The system is a joke.

.......... and people dare to focus on Swedish language.

Please don't get me wrong, I do believe that unemployment system right for single parents with kids who worked hard and lost his/her job for no valid reason. But also believe me when I say that there are TONS of free loaders.

Whole generation of people that were young during the recession years learned not to work simply because of lack of summer and evening jobs, yes, I know, not their fault .... but they sure learned how to milk the system. many of them (including my own sister) wouldn't know how to go and land a job if it was offered next door.

At the same time my mother is trying to start her own business and is loaded up with unbelievable taxes on top of other taxes. I mean, when is Finnish government going to realize that the power of economy is shifting to small-businesses and those are the people who will eventually hire and employ other people, provided they get to that point.

Give them a freakin' break ! Encourage and help these people to get started.

Posted by: Koikkalainen | May 25, 2005 10:05 AM

Hi Caroline and thanks for your marvelous post. A couple of notes.

You said:

"And indeed, the very fact that there are small business loans for women in Finland indicates that there are inequalities, otherwise there would be no need for special treatment."

To my knowledge this special loan arrangement for women was established to encourage women to start more small businesses. It has taken too long for the government to realize that most of the jobs - specially the new ones - come from new small businesses. This special loan for women is one the efforts to create new jobs. The women are naturally entitled to use the normal loan arrangements which are insensible to the sex of the company share holders.

I said: "Anyway, the unemployment has been getting smaller and hopefully continues to do so."

You said: "The reason why the unemployment rate falls is because a lot of unemployed individuals leave Finland, give up looking for work, or enroll in state-funded job search programs; it does not mean that more jobs are being created. So just because someone is not listed on the unemployment register, does not mean that they are making a living. "

Firstly, as far as know the moving away from Finland for jobs is not that big (A statistics figure would be nice here). Secondly, the ones moving away are mostly the high educated and young, those already having a steady job. These are the people who can make a career and good living in which ever country they choose to go to but also have the possibility and courage to do so. The low educated unemployed factory workers are still here.

As I stated in my first post, much of the current unemployment is caused by the collapse of the Soviet. Germany also suffers high unemployment because of the collapse, maybe not that much because of the lost markets in the East but because they have not been able to fuse the new inhabitants from the East Germany to the West German economy system and create new job for them. So, we both have the same problem, caused by slightly different reasons but due to the same historical event. The collapse has been a major factor to all kinds of upheavals in Europe and it takes time - maybe even several decades - before everything is back to "normal".

In Finland there can be no miracle to make the problem go away in one nigh either. There is an ongoing debate of what should be done but nobody really has the final answer, just because there ain't one simple one. The politicians need to clean up the statistics because they have made all sorts of promises which they naturally can not keep. You can not create new products and markets for them in a flash to decrease unemployment, if we consider the "real" jobs to be those that bring in new money. But there are some things you can do or at least try to do and one of them was the "loan trick" to women you brought up in your post. Another similar "trick" that seems to have worked to some degree is that you can now hire a person to do your house cleaning or take care of your children and have a part of the expenses deducted in taxation. This has revived the cleaning jobs business which had almost totally vanished during the four or five last decades.

These kinds of new jobs don't directly create anything new - if we measure things only businesslike - as they only redirect the cash flows within the country borders. The former unemployed people who used to get their checks from the unemployment office now get their checks from the private individuals who then get a tax deduction. This causes the government to get less taxes but at the same time they have to pay less unemployment compensations. The only thing the government actually did was that they fixed their own previous mistake when they by taxation had suffocated this kind of a normal job. Maybe they should look back and see what other bad mistakes they did and fix those first.

About the new mistakes I can point out one from my own field of business and that is the continuous increasing of the amount of new engineers. The politicians obviously think that the amount of new engineers equals the amount of new jobs. But in reality it causes low salaries for engineers, old experienced engineers entitled to high salaries won't get another job because companies can get cheap young labor instead. The situation has gone so bad that we just recently saw in TV the students striking. But to say something nice about this, maybe we should remember and accept what we all know already and that is that the ones who do something are the ones who will make the most of the mistakes too.

You also brought up the gender equality. My personal opinion of the gender equality in general is that there can be no quick improvement in this matter anywhere either. Why? Because this a general human problem where stronger individuals or stronger nations or stronger anything usually wants to rule the weaker ones. Most likely things will change in the course of time but it requires that the attitudes so deeply rooted in people's (men?) minds change.

Posted by: Risto Apajalahti | May 25, 2005 10:08 AM

Eddie wrote:

"And about locking things up. EVERYBODY locks their doors and bikes and cars up in Finland. You can go as far north as possible and everyone locks everything up."

I take it that you've gone through every single door, car and lock to check that they're all locked? ;-) In my home town in Eastern Finland people don't always lock things down in rural areas. Town centres are a different story, but when you drive to your summer cottage, you rarely worry about locking up your car, cottage door etc. So everybody can do it, but not everybody does it.

As for hating USA without really knowing what's in there: I'm Finnish and I have lived my whole life in Finland. But I have had the priviledge of visiting good friends in Maine, USA, and every time I've found it to be surprisingly similar to Finland. Of course Maine is completely different from California, NYC, or other less homogenous states because it simply is far from the maddening crowd, just like Finland. Sparsely populated, lots of forests, almost similar climate with proper winter, people who are generally accustomed to peaceful rhythm of life (compared to larger cities)... Everyday life over there is just as normal as it is over here, with same trivial challenges and problems. If I forget politics, the state etc. for a while and think of the people, I feel at home there. I probably would like visiting for example LA at least once, but I doubt that I'd love it. Maine, however, is the US equivalent of Finland for me. Maybe it would be better to compare Finland to Maine and not the whole USA?

Posted by: Pete | May 25, 2005 10:11 AM

For some reason this address has showed up on several anti Swedish pages. Be prepared for a lot of propaganda how poorly the Finns are being treated.

This is of course a lot of c..p. But I guess that all societies have their part of mental cases.

In general, especially among the educated people the relationship towards the other language is very warm. Most Swedish speakers marry with Finnish speakers but the couples raise their children as Swedish speakers. It is also very popular to put your Finnish-speaking children in Swedish speaking kindergarten. There are never enough places free.

Posted by: Juha Kontunen | May 25, 2005 10:11 AM

I'd like to add to above that the situation is not much better in other European countries either. I work a lot with Italian and Spanish companies, many of them small businesses, and they are in the same boat. Maybe not as impossible as in Filand, but not far off. So, it's not just Finland.

Posted by: Koikkalainen | May 25, 2005 10:14 AM

On Yoke-Swedish & Apartheid Caaste System in Finland,

The Finland-Swedes actually form a super-caste that cannot accept regular freedom of language to Finns. All Finns want to study English, and then only 1.5% are interested in Swedish. The Finland-Swedish is also non-eligible for communication in Sweden, and thus more harmful than beneficial. And, Swedes being in power, have even prohibited teaching of Sweden-Swedish in Finnish schools.

ALL Finns must today be able to speak well Swedish, by the law, if they want to get a certificate from a college or a university, for getting a public job or even getting a contract in Helsinki, where only round 6% are Swedish-speakers. And all those Swedish-speakers are bilingually Finnish-speakers, too.

This is naturally extremely costly. Actually Finns speak lousily English, thus getting typically 20-50% lower fees from international expert jobs. The Finnish GDP is estimated to lose 20-30% every year to the huge ignorance costs caused by the Yoke-Swedish. The losses do not only leak to education costs, but more to costs of not understanding French, German, Russian, Spanish, Italin, Japanese and not having active networks in those countries.

And this is against the anti-racistic directives of the European Union, see Google: EC directive 2000/43. It is amazing, how the Finnish Government still applies racistic discrimination over the majority of their people. Well, it is as if the Finns were Negroes in Africa or Dalits in India; good for servants but non-eligible for white-collars - without proven ability to behave as a Swede (Boer, Brahmin) does.

It is strange, how Finns can tolerate the apartheid-caste system that also badly hampers mathematically and technologically talented boys. Then in the PISA research, Finns are good at math, but not at the highest percentile but at the lowest. The Yoke-Swedish takes 10% of the energy of the students.

Posted by: Lasse Laaksonen, Helsinki | May 25, 2005 10:19 AM

I was suprised that you found so many interesting things about us.:)
Thanks.

By the way, we are not the biggest alcohol consumers in Europe. It just seems so, because when we are drinking WE DO GET drunk. I know, it's a bad habbit. It has something to do with those long, dark, cold and lonely winters...

The prof mentioned three things which are best to describe the nature of finns: Linux, Nokia and HIM.

He is on the right lead, but my list would be a little different:
Linux, Nokia and heavymetal.

Especially in Europe and Japan finnish metal has received a warm welcome. Him may be the most famous finnish band in the States, but it sure is not the only one with success.

Posted by: Joonas | May 25, 2005 10:20 AM

To "vision" (and "Markus"): it is not the paper mills that smell, but the pulp mills. Now, that is the right smell of money!

Posted by: Katja | May 25, 2005 10:26 AM

Eduardo: "And Markus.. hate the US all you want. Regarding incarceration rates in the US. When you break the law in the states, you will do time. Unlike law breakers in europe."

Hate? I was just pointing out a fact relating to unemployment rates. Compared to your post mine are mild. Don't judge other people by your standards, Eduardo.

Posted by: Markus | May 25, 2005 10:29 AM

"Landet heter Finland" is just another troll.

Posted by: In case you didn't notice | May 25, 2005 10:33 AM

Your wife's mother is "old school", meaning that she is a person from the time when there were separated jobs for a woman and a man. Nothing more. This kind of a behaviour is not common in younger generations; of course, there still is evidence left of that, but the attitudes towards man and woman having certain work is dying even in the oldest generations of Finns. (I cook, clean and do the laundry! And so does many other men.)

Posted by: From Vellu To Eduardo | May 25, 2005 10:34 AM

Something is terribly wrong with Finnish school system. To graduate and to have a government occupation, everybody here is obliged to study an unimportant five percent minority's language namely Swedish. Compulsory Swedish studies is a tool in the hands of an elité clique of Swedish speaking Finns, which they use to further their deeds and mutilate Finnish children's lingual and cultural identities.

Please consider my point.

Posted by: Pauli Ojanperä | May 25, 2005 10:36 AM

Eduardo: "And Markus, you mentioned slums before."

When?!?

Posted by: Markus | May 25, 2005 10:37 AM

Comparing USA better place than Finland as a whole; there is big cap between the richest people and poorest people is US. Being poor in USA means you don't have money or home. In Finland it means that your have enough wealth (if you can call it that!) to barely survive...

If you have money, you can survive in both coutries, but I prefer Finland, because of the safer, cleaner enviroment, good education and honest people.

Posted by: One more for Eduardo from a "immigrant" | May 25, 2005 10:40 AM

Eduardo: "Regarding incarceration rates in the US."

So, you admit that our unemployment figures would be quite close to USA's, if we had as many prisoners as you?

Incarceration rates tell more about society as whole than just about sentences. In Finland, our welfare system keeps some of the poor people from not having to rob/deal drugs etc. You know how in USA this is also a matter of race. Black men are more likely to go to prison. Why? They don't have the same opportunities as white folks, because of their race and poverty and so on.

Posted by: Markus | May 25, 2005 10:47 AM

Landet Heter... I thought the Swedish-Finnish snob was just a myth, but after reading your comments, I now understand it to be true.

World war II is over. Why would a 6 year war define your culture which is 500 years old? Get over it!!!! You don't hear Russians saying.. ah, World War II defined our culture.. they lost over a million soldiers.

Oh yeah, and UNESCO sites. You can visit the most undeserving UNESCO site at an old paper mill near Valkeala. i can't remember the name.. Vapa... something.

My wife's family was from Karelia.. they are still very sensitive about that. I wouldn't be surprised if Russia would sell it to Finland.

Posted by: Eduardo | May 25, 2005 10:48 AM

Dear Pauli Ojanperä.

You wrote "Something is terribly wrong with Finnish school system". But still the Finnish school system shows the best results year after year. Could this be THANKS to the compulsory Swedish and Finnish studies? Why is Finland doing so well internationally if "Something is terribly wrong with Finnish school system"?

Could it be that it's the bilingual society that makes Finland so successfull?

Posted by: Juha Kontunen | May 25, 2005 10:52 AM

Finland's population consists of the Finns and Finlanders.

The Finns are Finnish speaking and Finlanders non-Finnish speaking citizens of Finland.

4,9 million belong to the first-mentioned group. The latter group is about 400 000 and consists groups like Swedish, Russian, Estonian, Kurdish, Somali, Turkish etc. speaking citizens of Finland. They prefer to be called Finlanders.

Posted by: Basic information | May 25, 2005 10:54 AM

Blog getting more exposure n Finland

http://www.helsinginsanomat.fi/tuoreet/artikkeli/1101979659551

Expect more meaningless Finnish-Swedish arguments ;)

Posted by: Koikkalainen | May 25, 2005 10:58 AM

Funny how blog *Journey to Finland* quickly becomes platform for "Swedish language in Finland" argument.

This is now what all visitors get out of Finland as a country. How much people dislike their second-language.

Kinda redicilous, don't you think ?

Posted by: Koikkalainen | May 25, 2005 11:02 AM

Pete, what you consider LA, you will hate. Trust me. BUt if you visit the rest of LA, like La Verne, Pasadena, other cities along the foothills, Long Beach, Whittier, Laguna Hills.. oh sorry, that's Orange County already. Anyways, LA is more than downtown and beaches. And I also don't want to live too close to Los Angeles. I hate traffic, that's why I'm moving to TEMECULA!!!

I'll give you a super tour of LA if you ever decide to visit. lebite@yahoo.com

And for Markus and his unemployment figures.. no, I don't think the figures would be close. Is that your argument? All the unemployed people in the US are in Jail? Oh crap... remember, even prisoners work in the states! hehehe.. so welfare keeps criminals from robbing. Hmmmmm.. that reminds me of a street artist I saw on the beach after his performance he said to everyone, okay, now give me some money so I don't have to go to your house and rob you. I told him to f**k off. Gezuz Markus, we spend too much time on this board, see you tomorrow!

You mentioned the slums a long time ago..

And for the immigrant.. are you sure? The states is a huge country.. do you really think it would be difficult to find an area resembling finland? If you're unemployed and have no family and friends in the states.. you go on unemployment and collect food stamps to buy your food and clothes for yourself and your children. Just like in Finland. But you don't receive so much money that you decide to continue that lifestyle. Unlike in Finland. But really, my point isnt to prove that the US is better than Finland. I may have digressed, but I believe that if Finland feels good to you.. great.. but let's not act as if the poo poo doesn't smell bad in Finland.

Posted by: Eddie | May 25, 2005 11:09 AM

Text by Juha Kontunen
"Could it be that it's the bilingual society that makes Finland so successfull?"

Could it be that we would fare even better without the swedish language as a weight on our backs?

Posted by: | May 25, 2005 11:14 AM

Oh no, hope my wife doesn't read what I've written here! hehehehe....

Posted by: Eddie | May 25, 2005 11:15 AM

Eduardo: "Is that your argument? All the unemployed people in the US are in Jail?"

Uh... I know I shouldn't answer, if your argumentation is on this level. But still, I never said all the unemployed it the states are in jail. What I meant, if there was no safety nets, unemployed people would have to steal or do other crimes to get money. If we hadn't the same educational opportunities for everyone, some parts of our people would get hopeless and commit crimes and so on. And then our unemployment would decrease, because those people would be in jail.

"so welfare keeps criminals from robbing. Hmmmmm.. that reminds me of a street artist I saw"

All your argumentation is based on your memories that you choose to tell us. "I once saw a man who had heard that there's dragons in the USA, so it must be true then." As valid argument as yours.

But you're right, we spend too much time here.

Posted by: Markus | May 25, 2005 11:25 AM

The only important thing about Finland to know is weather they pay their bills on time. And in fact they do. This country has an outstanding record of nondefault. Considering that Finland has never defaulted. During the 1930's Finaland was the only European nation to pay it's debts to United States. After the WWII Finland never received any western or Soviet aid, but infact payed all the warreparation debt it was charged by the Soviets. The depression of the 1990's caused the country to loan huge sums of money. Yet these loans have been very profittable for those who were intelligent enough to invest. This country is a minor player in the financial markets where every larger player has defaulted their obligations. Even United States has defaulted (the obligation to pay in gold) under Richard Nixon. Finland has an outstanding record that has held through all kinds of political , legal and financial situations.

Posted by: Standard & Poor's | May 25, 2005 11:30 AM

The Fennomaniac communtity tell the children, if they learn Swedish, they must be servants for the Swedish as adults.

And this is not a lie, is it, 'Help'?

And I have not labelled any writer here as a liar. The Chairman of Finnish Alliance, Mr. Heikki Tala, a well-known dentist himself said exactly what I said before.

Posted by: Urja | May 25, 2005 11:30 AM

A friend of mine pointed out how Finns use the word "system" or "systeemi" to describe all kinds of practical solutions. Obviously schooling, politics and health are all systems, but it runs deeper than that. Even the recoiling dog leash has been called a "hyvä systeemi". I suspect this may reflect much of the do-it-yourself pragmatic approach to problem solving and even design thinking. Or, that the Finns just like the way "systeemi" sounds when pronounced. :) I am curious to read if the visitors pick up on this at all.

Posted by: Hyvä Systeemi | May 25, 2005 11:33 AM

Living in central Europe and having kids here, I have to say that finnish women are quite lucky . They can still choose whether their work or stay home even if they have more children.
I worked here till I had my second child. Now I just finished my 3 months (!)maternity leave , but could not leave my baby to daycare, so I will continue on unpaid leave untill my baby is 7 months old.
Now it seems that my salary will be less than childcare costs for two kids ( 2600 - 3000 euros /month for two ), so I will have to leave my beloved gollagues and work that I like so much .
I do not choose to be "only" a mother , but I have to do that.
Only positive matter is that I have a lots of new "gollagues" as all the women here stays home while hubbies are working.
I just can hope to find soon job in Finland and help with excellent daycare facilities there, I can continue to live my choosen life.
And I would be happy if my children also would learn Swedish at school : ))

Posted by: Annikki | May 25, 2005 11:34 AM

Adissident: Sorry, I didn't find any facts about this subject from the web site of the Swedish Party.

Sorry I can't help you.

Posted by: Urja | May 25, 2005 11:42 AM

About guns in Finland:

The amount of small firearms per person is third highest in the world (after US and Yemen)

Amount of homicides is three times the average of Western European countries. Firearms are involved in every fifth homicide.

Posted by: Stats | May 25, 2005 11:57 AM

Eddie wrote:

"But life goes on.. and soon I'll be moving back to California. Not for the money, but for the quality of life."

Can you tell us what "quality of life" is in your view?

Super LA tour offer accepted and greatly appreciated if I ever visit that area - and I assume that you're serious about, unlike some people living in USA. My friends on the other side of the pond have mentioned several times how two-faced some people can be, e.g. inviting friends to visit them (in the name of politeness) but not really meaning it. Finns tend to take invitations seriously, because if they get invited, they already start looking for the right date. Of course this happens in Finland as well, but I think that in States that's regarded more as chit chat rather than something that people are seroius about.

Posted by: Pete | May 25, 2005 12:00 PM

You really should notice the safety of Finland! it´s probably one of the few countries in the world where kids can walk to school, play outside etc. without being conctantly overseed. And nothing bad will happen! That´s why Finns pay their taxes happily: it´s a safe and truly egalitarian country.

Posted by: Anna | May 25, 2005 12:00 PM

On the issue of "slums" its always YMMV. For a Helsinki native describing a part of the city as "ghetto" someone from a place inner cities really are bad must think they are barking mad, and at the same time the local guy is shaking his head trying to convince that a studio in Töölö and a studio in Jakomäki really do have a difference.

Posted by: Hank W. | May 25, 2005 12:01 PM

Of course rating the creditworthiness of a sovereign nation depends on other aspects as well as the available historical track record (which is outstanding). We have to evaluate the willingness and the ability of the debtor to fullfill their current obligations and the likelihood of negative developement in the markets affecting the debtor. We have strong record of Finland proved it's ability to manage it's obligations through even the most challenging situations such as a loosing war against a superpower and major banking crises. We rate Finalnd as AAA as a default is highly unlikely. It is less likely than Quantas crashing an airplane (Quantas is the only major airline that has never crashed a plane).

Posted by: Standard & Poor's | May 25, 2005 12:02 PM

www.nokiankaupunki.fi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia

Posted by: James from Nokia "City" | May 25, 2005 12:09 PM

Eduardo: I come from the biggest town of Lappland and most of the people there don't lock their doors outside the center. I live now in France and I have started to think of Finland as a really safe place. Of course nothing is perfect. I've heard for example that there are homeless people in Helsinki but I haven't found them yet.

Posted by: Heidi | May 25, 2005 12:10 PM

Considering the excellent creditworhtiness of Finland it is very interesting that the nation is not borrowing more. Recent surge of home loans pales in comparison with the debt rates of American or British house holds. We could allow Finnish economy to borrow twice or three times the current levels without reconsidering out opinion of the likelihood of default. However if this happens too fast we might see problems in the form of inflation and misplaced invetments.

Posted by: Standard & Poor's | May 25, 2005 12:22 PM

"... like Finland doesn't have other problems to deal with. I mean .... WHO CARES ! Swedish is mainly spoke in south, you go up north and you will have difficult time finding someone who speaks it or cares about speaking it. There are much worse things that country of ~5M people should be focusing one. "

Koikkalainen , ajattele nyt edes vähän.
Jos ala-aste + yläaste + lukio luetaan ruotsia niin se on yhteensä joka viikko 5h parin vuoden ajan ... Ja se ei mukamas ole iso asia mitä nuori tekee sen ajan? Järki käteen. Ajattele mitä silloinkin vois opettaa muissa aineissa. Ja nuorissa se tulevaisuus on.
Kirjotin suomeksi että varmasti tajuaisit.

And Eduardo:
"World war II is over. Why would a 6 year war define your culture which is 500 years old? Get over it!!!! You don't hear Russians saying.. ah, World War II defined our culture.. they lost over a million soldiers."

Final Independence. WWII really united people after everything and especially civil war. And I think the Finland we now know was born then.

And I think Russians had little more before WWII and jada jada jada...

Posted by: Finländer | May 25, 2005 12:40 PM

So there you have it.

Whereas the US has pro-life vs pro-choice debate, the Finns have Swedish language vs. Finnish language "debate".

That's all it is, hot air. And has nothing to with "super-caste systems" or Swedish elite.

For the US readers of this blog, the anti-swedish debate usually takes very nationalistic and borderline racist tones. Nobody but people with hidden agendas (politicians wanting to score extra votes, or right-wing pro-finn loonies) take any of that stuff seriously. Election years tend to bring out the worst in people regarding this "debate".

I'm Finnish speaking and hated Swedish at school, btw.

Posted by: Tero Paananen | May 25, 2005 12:40 PM

"Finlandder" The idea of this blog is to provide new and updated infomration about Finland as of today. The name of this whole thing is *Journey to Finland". To extend your opinions -for or against (here we go again!) Swedish language, and especially in Finnish shows that you really don't even care about the purpose of this blog. Write in English because it is a blog originated by Washington news, not by Turun Sanomat.

I didn't for example say if I am for or against Swedish language in Finland, you assumed that I am for it. I am actually against it. So, stop assuming and stick with English language - at least here.

Posted by: Koikkalainen | May 25, 2005 01:11 PM

"For the US readers of this blog, the anti-swedish debate usually takes very nationalistic and borderline racist tones"

Yeah, from both sides.

But it's funny how it still is a hush hush subject in our society. Usually people do not argument for compulsory swedish, they just tell that there's no need for it or that only extremists argue about that matter. My conclusion is it's because there really is no arguments for it.

It's not the biggest problem in Finland, I think the hush hush attitude is bigger.

Oh, btw, just because someone thinks swedish shouldn't be compulsory, doesn't mean they're anti-swedish or that their actions and opinions are of pure hatred.

Posted by: In case you didn't notice | May 25, 2005 01:40 PM

For the US readers of this blog, you must surely know that apartheid is wrong. The modern apartheid in Finland is morally and legally wrong (according to EU law), and is financially retarded.

Notice that, now that Finnish state censorship cannot affect this board, the frustrated agents of swedification are trying to tell you to ignore messages which criticise the status quo of swedification, and continue to use ad-hominem, suggesting that Finns who speak out against this oppression are racist or mentally ill.

That is because there are no real justifications to support compulsory swedish teaching, except to maintain a corrupt elitist caste structure. The swedish apartheidists in Finland are hateful of any light that gets thrown on them, exposing their bigotry against Finnish people.

Thank you Mr. Kaiser and Washington Post

Posted by: Anti-apartheid | May 25, 2005 01:48 PM

Ok, this is my attempt to change the subject. And I really hope it works.

This should get some attention ;)

FINNISH FOOD SUCKS !

Posted by: Koikkalainen | May 25, 2005 01:56 PM

That naturally doesn't include the great rye-breads, karelian-pie, many of the fish dishes and ofcourse reindeer related dishes.

But that "Finnish" coffee ...... don't get me started .....

Posted by: Koikkalainen | May 25, 2005 02:08 PM

You said:
"For the US readers of this blog, you must surely know that apartheid is wrong. The modern apartheid in Finland is morally and legally wrong (according to EU law), and is financially retarded."

Well, I surely hope that the adult US readers stay interested in this thread despite that in has turned into a low-level immature teenage discussion of off topic matters including apartheid, the Swedish-language, door-locking and what ever. But I can understand this as the link was pointed out in a forum for (young) musicians.

Posted by: Risto Apajalahti | May 25, 2005 02:27 PM

Lived here all my life. In my opinion southern countries should learn something about getting things done efficiently from us. And we should learn to take things easier and being more friendly toward each other from the southern countries. It's a question of balancing-

Posted by: Rob | May 25, 2005 02:38 PM

http://www.msfilmfestival.fi/

Posted by: Been there, done that | May 25, 2005 02:46 PM

Thank you for this excellent blog about Finland. The country sounds really nice and interesting. It's a pity that there seems to bee idiots in Finland as well. With my knowledge of Finland I view that the only thing that has saved Finland from Russia is the culture and economy brought by the Swedish-speakers. Without these nobody would even know that there are any such place as Finland. Weren't both Sibelius and Mannerheim Swedish-speakers? And what about Linus Thorvalds? Most presidents have been Swedish-speakers.

It's very revealing how bad English these "enemies" of the Swedish culture in Finland write. They probably object to all education. One must remember that they've been studying English at least for 7 years and heard it daily on television. Still they write worse than somebody who has just taken up his studies.

Posted by: Frank Collin | May 25, 2005 02:48 PM

PS. This thread has become very slow to download because of it's length. An additional "off-topic" thread could probably help in this. Thanks for the blog.

Posted by: Risto Apajalahti | May 25, 2005 02:51 PM

I'm shamelessly taking advantage of this interesting conversation/debate over Finland but if someone wants to talk about Finland or Finnish things, or just talk, don't hesitate to add me to your MSN Messenger contacts list, my address is mristila@edu.kauhajoki.fi . :)

Posted by: Mikko | May 25, 2005 02:53 PM

Every Finn knows Nokia. Every other Finn knows HIM ( but nobody can name any song of that band ), very few Finns know Linux, no Finn knows Himanen.

Posted by: Petteri | May 25, 2005 03:05 PM

Some very strange yet amusing conversation about the swedish language situation. The most amusing thing is the way some of the posters call the current situation "apartheid".

Let's begin.

"The Swedish peoples party has an own TV-channel, quotas to the other TV-channels resulting that any day at the prime time at least one of the two finnish speaking channels is actually swedish speaking."
-There are four analog network tv-channels in Finland, two of them owned by YLE (state tv and radio) Swedes don't have their own tv channel, but YLE channels send FST (finlands svensk television) programs, usually for a couple of hours a day. And the time for their program is definately prime time, but during the day while people are mostly in school/working. The two other channels are commercial.

"A Finn cannot graduate from the university without having successfully completed the obligatory Swedish language course which is a must in order to serve in a state byreaucracy. In other words every single university student is prepared to work at the public service!"
Not true, yes there are 5 compulsory courses you'll have to take, but swedish is no longer compulsory on the final exams (when finishing high school) finnish is the only compulsory exam in it, with it you have to choose 3 other exams to take (from swedish, english, math, history, physics, etc..) Yes you have to be able to speak swedish in order to get into public state work (police, library..) but the reason is very simple, we have two hundred thousand swedish-speaking citizens who need all the same services as the finns do. Being able to speak swedish doesn't make you prepared for the work.

"In Porvoo there is a school called Lyseonpuiston koulu where it is forbidden to speak a word
of finnish language. Any pupil caught in doing this will be threatened to be thrown out of the school. In Pietarsaari
there is a scool called Ristikarin koulu. In 2003 it was to be divided between finnish and swedish speaking children
but again the Swedish peoples party tried their everything to throw the finnish speaking children out of their own school
because they see finnish language in general as detrimental to any swedish speaker."

When did this happen, mid 1700's? I've never heard of it and it certainly sounds like the biggest piece of bullshit I've ever heard. Actions like that are against Finland's constitutional laws and are therefore illegal.

"Then for the politics. As mentioned in other writings there is the politica freak known as "Swedish peoples party" which has for some reason an eternal place in Finlands governent. The same party has been a member of the government since
70's and elections in Finland are basically a system to elect new partners for this party."
It's not an eternal position, neither there is any kind of rule for it being in the government. The reason they're there is that they are very eager for co-operation with the government, while being in the government they can strive for their own things and the other parties have some extra votes for striving their own.

It's also good to notice that from the 200 politicians in the parliament only 9 are from the swedish people party, so go and talk about an apartheid there. The three major parties in finland (center party, social democrats and the Kokoomus) have from 40 to 50 politicians in the parliament.

Anyway, the language is about as big question here as those old railroad company barracks in the centrum of Helsinki, enough big to raise some discussion but far from rocking the earth.

And what's wrong with finnish food? Try mämmi ;)

Posted by: Grin | May 25, 2005 03:07 PM

"Weren't both Sibelius and Mannerheim Swedish-speakers? And what about Linus Thorvalds? Most presidents have been Swedish-speakers."

I'm not sure about Sibelius, but I'm pretty sure he speaked both swedish and finnish. Mannerheim was from a swedish speaking family, but he served Russian army as an officer. This fact has great value later on in Finnish history.

The thing is, that they were born in Finland and (just like Linus Torvalds) made most of their achievements waving the Finnish flag. From the 11 Finnish presidents at least 8 have been finnish speaking, being, of course, able to speak swedish as well.

Posted by: Grin | May 25, 2005 03:29 PM

The people who speak only Swedish are getting older and dying. We Finnish speaking people have a few decades.

Posted by: Petteri | May 25, 2005 03:32 PM

Landet Heter Finland wrote:

"The Truth is that Finland is bilingual (by constitution) and owes most of its' success to the multicultural society. The Swedish-speaking minority founded almost all of Finland's culture and businesses."

This is all true. If you study Finlands history (pre-independence too ofcourse) you wont read about many important men with finnish names before 1920's. All that the swedish speaking finns did back in the 1800's was awesome and they were true patriot's - there's no denying that. But tradition is not a good argument in this lanquage feud. Are you saying that all finns should study swedih because of Maid Lucya. Lönrot was a great finn, but he is also dead.

Landet Heter Finland also wrote:

"Usually the Finns' knowledge of the Swedish language correlates very closely with his success in life. I guess stupid people neither learn Swedish nor anything else."

If all Finns who dislike bilinqual policy in Finland are stupid, then i ques most Finns are idiots.

Tata, H

Posted by: Hannes Vauhkonen | May 25, 2005 03:35 PM

A country needs to now its history. The bilingual culture is what has built Finland. It seems to have worked fine. Why change it?

If you study Swedish for 8 years and read it daily without learning it...? I don't know.. I would feel pretty stupid. In that time I would even learn Chinese. Most Finns actually speak Swedish. At least those who have an education.

I disliked a lot of subjects. That didn't mean that I didn't learn them.

Posted by: Landet Heter Finland | May 25, 2005 03:45 PM

Oh, I didn't notice this possibility of commenting until after sending an email. As far as I can tell my points haven't been mentioned yet so I'll just post my email here also:

----
Hello,

it's nice to notice that You have shown such a keen interest towards our country. It always cherishes a shy Finn's ego when someone takes note of us.

I think you will be pleased to hear that Your Finland Diary has attracted quite a lot of (positive) attention from my friends and collagues here in Helsinki.

I have a few suggestions you might consider covering while staying here:

1.) You mentioned that Finnish women are the most liberated in the world and that Finnish society promotes motherhood by supplying mothers long maternal leaves and high quality child care. There's also a downside to this: employers are reluctant to hire women because there's a risk that they get pregnant and the employer has to find someone to do the new mother's job. Average wages of women under 30 are about 5-10 per cent lower than men of the same age. There's even a saying here: "An Euro to a man is 80 cents to a woman" (freely translated). Also women have much difficulties finding permanent jobs: as far as I can remember some 80 % of women under 35 don't have a permanent job. Some experts claim that this is mainly because of our generous benefits to mothers.

Check out for example: www.akava.fi (confederation of unions for academic professionals in Finland), www.lakko.org ("Child-making strike" - people who demand that the costs of motherhood should be equally divided to men and women. unfortunately only in Finnish, click "Yhteystiedot" for contact information of people behind this).

2.) Your diary has blog has covered a great deal about education and how good the Finnish educational system is. In my opinion it wouldn't be a bad idea to interview a mathematics professor at a technical university for example. People who are teaching advanced level mathematics in Finland have claimed that the PISA-test in fact only tests every-day skills like calculating percentages and not the skills required in university level mathematics like algebra and geometry. There has claimed that Finnish children's algebraic skills are in fact lower than they were 20 years ago.

These were just some things from the top of my head. Talk to the unemployed, those needing constant medical attentions or university students if you want to find "chinks in our armor".
---

Posted by: otto | May 25, 2005 03:50 PM

This 80 cents to a dollar(euro) is just bullshit and everybody knows it. Or should know it.
Yuo are right in this: algebra and geometry skills are lower than 35 years ago.

Posted by: Petteri | May 25, 2005 04:23 PM

Dear Juha Kontunen,

In Your response you suggested that Finnish performance in education would somehow result from bilinguality. One SURE fact is, that we are not bilingual. Finnish bilinguality is an outright lie. Ninety two percent of the population speaks Finnish only. No amount of violent "education" can change that. You know, they couldn't change their skin color in South Africa, even if they wanted to.

I know an amateur analyst suggested such an explanation in some news paper. However there are much better explanations - you can query Google: "Heikoimmat oppilaat nostivat Suomen kärkeen PISAssa". The final nail on the coffin of such an explanation is, that those children who really were Swedish-Finnish bilingual, performed much worse in all areas of the PISA-study.

Now it's your turn to prove your point.

P.S. In school our children are systematically being brain washed to believe those lies of 1960's.

Posted by: Pauli Ojanperä | May 25, 2005 04:26 PM

At Wikipedia you can read more about the åpårtheidic situation in Finland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Swedish

Posted by: Pauli Ojanperä | May 25, 2005 04:39 PM

Frank Collin said:

"With my knowledge of Finland I view that the only thing that has saved Finland from Russia is the culture and economy brought by the Swedish-speakers. Without these nobody would even know that there are any such place as Finland. Weren't both Sibelius and Mannerheim Swedish-speakers? And what about Linus Thorvalds? Most presidents have been Swedish-speakers."

I hate see myself taking part in this Finn-Swede discussion but here we go;-)

The overall picture is that the speaking of Swedish in Finland dates long back to the days when Finland was part of Sweden. All the civil servants and officials had to be able to speak Swedish to communicate with the Kings court and his government. Naturally there were Swedish born people here too, but mostly the officials were Finnish born educated people i.e. Finns, who also had to be able to communicate in Finnish with the Finnish only speaking part of the population of Finland. So the educated "aristocracy" was bilingual and Sibelius and Mannerheim came from this aristocracy. Mannerheim was an educated man who served in the Russian army of the Tsar before the revolution and was asked to serve in the head of the Finnish army and later became President. Mannerheim himself wanted to be called as "en finne" i.e. a Finn who speaks Swedish. So, including Swedish and Finnish he also spoke at least Russian. The original nationality of his family escapes me now but it is definitively not Swedish nor Russian.

One thing to mention also is that between 1900 - 1930 it was quite common to change you Swedish surname into a Finnish one. This was when people more and more started to "realize" that they are Finns and wanted to make that clear. This is what happened in our family too on my fathers side.

The small, nearly only Swedish speaking minority lives in small towns on the west and south-west coasts and in general do not differ from the rest of the Finns except for their language. Actually many of them were fishermen. The policy of Finland has been to keep the country bilingual to maintain a bridge to the neighboring countries who speak Swedish or a Swedish-like languages i.e. Norway and Denmark. Swedish has therefore been mandatory in schools. The younger generation has not internalized this old idea and specially now that English has become a better tool, they fight against the mandatory Swedish which also naturally adds weekly hours to their studies.

Posted by: | May 25, 2005 04:49 PM

Heh, the Finnish-Swedish debate. Native Finnish speakers are just pissed they were required to learn Swedish in order to graduate. The recent legislation that abandoned this requirement will help to damper future generations' Finnish-Swedish debates.

At times, the Finnish-Swedish rivalry might seem intense, but not really - in the end they're all Finns.

- Phil
http://www.finlandforthought.net

Posted by: Phil | May 25, 2005 04:51 PM

I want to share with you a not too well translated quote from a famous Finnish writer, Arto Paasilinna:

This emotional situation will however, before long, on it's own and naturally be settled. Because there in Finland are only few percent of Swedish speaking citizens, their language will unavoidably give way. First, it will become another real minority language, which wont be spread forcefully to majority's children. Next, it will happen to Swedish that it will begin to become forgotten and finally, using it in Finland will completely cease. Those people who can speak Swedish will die when the time comes and they will take their mother tongue with them.

Posted by: Pauli Ojanperä | May 25, 2005 04:56 PM

Sorry, the reply to Frank Collin's post came from me.

Posted by: Risto Apajalahti | May 25, 2005 04:56 PM

"A country needs to now its history. The bilingual culture is what has built Finland. It seems to have worked fine. Why change it?"

What's that supposed to mean? You go to history class to learn history. That doesn't make any sence. If I want to know about the spanish civil war I read a book about it - I certainly dont start studying the friggin lanquage.

If you study Swedish for 8 long years and never need it? You travel to Sweden and find out that they speak different Swedish and you dont get a word that they are saying. I don't know.. I would feel pretty god damn mad. In that time I could have even learnt Chinese - a useful lanquage compared to Swedish.

And what are you saying? Everybody who were good in learning swedish in school love the current system? That's a bunch of BS. You dont have to be bad in school to know that the bilingual system with 95 % of the nation speakin the same lanquage, is wacked.

Contrary to your claims, most Finns still SPEAK Finnish. They learn swedish in schools, but they dont actually use it.

Posted by: | May 25, 2005 04:58 PM

"Native Finnish speakers are just pissed they were required to learn Swedish in order to graduate."

Actually, native Finnish speakers are pissed that their basic human rights to own culture and language is being violated. They are pissed that it for God's sake is year 2005 and politics like this is being run at a parliament of a country which poses a western democracy.

"The recent legislation that abandoned this requirement will help to damper future generations' Finnish-Swedish debates."

Nope. You're right that some progress has happened, but at the same time they've tightened the screw at the other end.

"At times, the Finnish-Swedish rivalry might seem intense, but not really - in the end they're all Finns."

Not really. You can read about Swedish speaking Finns who have believed themselves already be Swedes when they moved to Sweden.

Posted by: Pauli Ojanperä | May 25, 2005 05:05 PM

Apartheid??? I rest my case.

Most of the anti-swedish activists ARE mentally unstable. Mind you, I'm not referring to all people who argue against mandatory swedish classes, just the "activists".

You weren't locked in state prison for 25 years for speaking out against mandatory Swedish classes, were you?

Posted by: Tero Paananen | May 25, 2005 05:10 PM

Frank collin said,
"With my knowledge of Finland I view that the only thing that has saved Finland from Russia is the culture and economy brought by the Swedish-speakers.... Most presidents have been Swedish-speakers."

Most of the presidents were men. Does it mean that women had nothing to with developing Finland? Why do you think they were men? Maybe because it was impossible for women to rise to power until recently. Same phenonomenon when one considers language.

"It's very revealing how bad English these "enemies" of the Swedish culture in Finland write. They probably object to all education."

It's sad when you don't have any rationale to back up your arguments, you have to rely on attacking people's personalities.

Posted by: in case you didn't notice | May 25, 2005 05:13 PM

The issue of 300 000 "hurris" (hurri = a rasistic expression for a Swedish-speaking Finn, ha!!) complaining that "we need to use our language, moan moan moan". THEN SPEAK IT WITH YOUR FRIENDS, FAMILY etc, but Finnish-speakers should not be asked to speak the language of a minority of 6 %. I am a Finnish-speaker but I speak Swedish fluently as well, and I am against compulsory Swedish studies. There still exists racism from Swedish-speakers side towards Finns, and I just hate that.

Also some stupid Swedish-speaking FInns complain that Finnish is a hard language and that they don' know it. Then I know some rikssvenska (Swedes from SWEDEN) who have come to Finland and learned the Finnish language!!! WOW!!! Maybe Swedes are then more intelligent than Swedish-speaking Finns! But of course, Hartwalls and Pauligs don't have to make an effort to survive in Finland. Pappa betalar!!! ;)

Posted by: Finnatic | May 25, 2005 05:16 PM

You people are all nuts !

Posted by: Koikkalainen | May 25, 2005 05:20 PM

I think no good can come out of this diary and discussion. After living in a place with high tourism and immigration I can say that, yes, Finland has its idiots as well as every country. But we don't need any more idiots from outside. The less people know about us outside, the better. Less tourism, better, less immigration, better. So please, add as much negative comments as possible.

Posted by: naksu | May 25, 2005 05:20 PM

100 other things that could be fixed in the country and you people complain about some language thing. Who cares ? Let the Swedish people live in the country they were born in, it just happens to be Finland. So what if it is mandatory language in the school ? I did it, hated it, but did it. Extra language never hurts - not that it did any good for me. Consider yourself more educated. Stop the whining. Many other things that need attention in Finland. Stop already, Geeeezzz ....

Posted by: Koikkalainen | May 25, 2005 05:24 PM

Koikkalainen said,
"100 other things that could be fixed in the country and you people complain about some language thing. Who cares ?"

Oh yes, and there's people who are hungry in Africa, why should we do nothing at all. And some people are murdered, so victims of rape, stop complaining! At least you're alive.

"Let the Swedish people live in the country they were born in, it just happens to be Finland."

I don't think anyone questions their right to live here or speak their language. That has nothing to do with this issue.

Posted by: in case you didn't notice | May 25, 2005 05:39 PM

I wonder how these anti-Swedish-speakers feel about us ENGLISH speakers living in Finland!

- Phil
http://www.finlandforthought.net

Posted by: Phil | May 25, 2005 05:40 PM

In my opinion, the Swedish language hardly is the root of all evil in Finnish educational system. I would reserve that role to the mandatory teaching of religion (or the non-religious philosophical alternative). From the first grade to the senior year in high school we are expected to listen to the same religous stories over and over again. For example, when I was in high school, there was more obligatory courses in religion than in subjects such as chemistry, physics, biology or geography. Not to mention that there is no mandatory teaching in subjects such as computer science, public law or economics. Which subjects are more relevant in the modern world? Religion(s), if necessary at all, should be a part of some history course, nothing more. So at least in this respect, the much berated American public school system excels in comparison to the Finnish one because it is illegal to teach religion in a public school.

Posted by: Rutger S. | May 25, 2005 05:41 PM

I am absolutely floored to see how nutty people occupy my native Finland these days. WAKE UP !

Posted by: Koikkalainen | May 25, 2005 05:59 PM

Pick up any general history of the Second World War in the English language. Chances are there is almost no mention of Finland's role in the conflict. This is very odd because one could even argue that the Winter War was an early stage of the greater hostilities.

The secret additional protocol of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact states that Finland and Poland were to be subject of a territorial and political rearrangement. It is conventional for historians to consider the Nazi campaign in Poland as the beginning of the war. Why not Finland?

Finns understandably wish to consider their conflict separate from the Second World War as whole for the obvious reason that they don't want their struggle for national identity to bear the taint of Nazi crimes.

It is odd that this view of history simply goes on more or less unchallenged.

This not an academic question. Finland's example of resistance to Russia and the USSR certainly continues to influence the thinking of many smaller nations, such as the Baltic states.

The Finnish government and media have had to tread a narrow path in describing the country and its history. "Finlandization", as the policy was known, was never abandoned even during the heady days of Perestroika.

This has given Finns the feeling that, except for Russia, few countries are concerned with what goes on in Finland. Finns, not without reason, are proud of their national achievements. Compared with much of the world, Finland is well-run. Ordinary people have a high standard of living.

However, Finlandization has meant that officials and bureaucrats accomplish policy goals without open discussion.

"The world is not observing us, so as long as the result is good, why question the method."

A few examples: Neighboring Sweden is struggling hard to absorb refugees. The issue is very devisive in Sweden and there is a great deal of passionate debate there. The influx of immigrants to Finland has been limited by a quiet policy of not granting asylum as easily as some other European countries.

The Swedish media is often caustic about anti-immigrant developments in Austria, Denmark and even Holland. But the Swedish media rarely brings up the Finnish attitude towards immigrants.

Although Finns are civilized and correct in their dealings with foreigners from undeveloped countries, they are unwelcoming.

Even Ingrian Finns, who suffered genocidal persecution in Russia, find integration difficult.

Finns are quite nationalistic. An American father from South Carolina had his two sons abducted to Finland by their mother, a Finnish national.

She openly defied the Supreme Court of Finland in refusing to return the boys to their father. If she had been an African or Arabic father, the police would have arrested her in short order. She was a Finnish woman in a conflict with a foreign man and that gave her immunity from the law.

The two boys were locked up in a mental hospital for two months in clear contravention of the Finnish Mental Health Act which forbids involuntary hospitalization except in the case of serious psychiatric illnesses.

In another case, about which the media was silent for years, a foreign father lost custody of his two children when his alcoholic Finnish wife eloped with a lesbian lover. Although the wife was manifestly unfit to care for her children -- she literally drank herself to death -- the social authorities and courts refused to protect the children's relationship with the father.

He was awarded custody of his children after his ex-wife died, but for two years he was unable to see them. When the case finally reached the Supreme Court, both children had reached the age at which their opinion gained legal weight.

This scandal will probably end in the European Court of Human Rights.

Relations between men and women in Finland are in a state of imbalance. One would think that a country that considers equality important would treat mothers and fathers as equally important in the lives of their children. And yet, Finnish courts award sole custody to mothers at a much higher rate than in Sweden or the US.

The average Finnish young person would probably be surprized to hear an outsider question the equality of relations between men and women.

Several months ago when I interviewed a group of teenagers, the boys melted away. They were incapable of expressing opinions, while the girls took charge of the "serious" matter of speaking with a foreign journalist. The contrast was striking.

Finns can be quite self-conscious.
Finnish President Tarja Halonen was the chair of the gay-lesbian civil rights organization (Seta) between 1980-1981. However, an inspection of her official CV on the web

Finland.http://www.presidentti.fi/english/

shows that she has erased that position from her past. This especially odd, given that she no doubt considers her work on behalf of gay civil rights important.

This is sort of omission of fact is similar to the phenomenon of "finlandization". If something doesn't fit in, remove it and pretend it doesn't exist.

Finland is a country in Europe, but it is not entirely european in its cultural norms and the Finnish concept of civil rights is more flexible than one might expect.

Make certain you experience a smoke sauna during your time in Finland.

Posted by: A foreign journalist | May 25, 2005 06:38 PM

Dearest Pauli Ojanper�,

I'm sorry. I've a very hard time reading your texts. Your English is very bad. I can see that you're hoping that you'd studied more English instead of Swedish. Fortunately most pupils manage to learn more than one subject. I can imagine that learning disabilities can be frustrating.

I didn't quite get your point with the PISA study. What do the Finnish-speakers in Sweden have to do with that? They are usually known for being alcoholics and having a lot of social problems. Maybe you are one of them? They have also a hard time learning Swedish, even though many have lived in Sweden for decades.

Or do you mean that Swedish-speakers SHOULD automatically have better results? Do you think they are smarter? Do you feel stupid? I�m sorry. I don't think that having a different mother tongue makes anyone smarter. But it seems that LEARNING Swedish at SCHOOL makes pupils smarter. Or maybe learning Finnish at school makes Swedish-speakers dumber? Should Finnish education be prohibited? Is that what you are saying? It is true that learning Finnish takes a LOT of time and energy. It is a very difficult language. It is also one of the smallest languages in the world. Swedish-speakers start learning it already in grade three.

Saying that Swedish in Sweden is different from that in Finland is like saying that if you�ve learned Finnish in Turku you cannot understand what they speak in Tampere. Ridiculous!

Posted by: Juha Kontunen | May 25, 2005 07:09 PM

Dearest Pauli Ojanper䬍

Or do you mean that Swedish-speakers SHOULD automatically have better results? Do you think they are smarter? Do you feel stupid? Im sorry. I don't think that having a different mother tongue makes anyone smarter. But it seems that LEARNING Swedish at SCHOOL makes pupils smarter. Or maybe learning Finnish at school makes Swedish-speakers dumber? Should Finnish education be prohibited? Is that what you are saying? It is true that learning Finnish takes a LOT of time and energy. It is a very difficult language. It is also one of the smallest languages in the world. Swedish-speakers start learning it already in grade three.

Saying that Swedish in Sweden is different from that in Finland is like saying that if youve learned Finnish in Turku you cannot understand what they speak in Tampere. Ridiculous!

Posted by: Juha Kontunen | May 25, 2005 07:10 PM

Regarding A foreign journalists comments:

Are you really sure that every other nations' courts would really be without any pro-bias towards their own nationals in such disputes? All the countries in the world have issues with foreigners, it is somehow a reminiscence of humankind's animal origins and tribal past.

Finnish-Swedish discussion:

As a finnish native it took me by surprise to see such a discussion. I thought that this subject really is a non-issue, irrelevant and utterly meaningless. I'll offer my two cents to contribute to this meaninglessness:) The way we have it now in our educational system is a compromise borne out of the need to balance things and relationships between the two lingual groups that comprise our nation during the struggle for independence in the beginning of 20th century. Without such a balancing act things could have turned to much worse at the beginning of indepedence (over 80 years ago...) Luckily for us, the statesmen were wise enough to enact such policies then.

The statesmen at that time were also farsighted enough to see that education is the only way out of poverty. If you travel to countries in South America or Africa, you can only hope that someday the people over there get this insight. Universal, equal education is the key to Finnish success. With "sisu" or guts and stamina you get things done right. With education you get the right things done...and that is a huge difference. People in poorer countries are working as hard or even harder than Finnish, but they are not nearly as productive.

Finnish system is far from perfect, admittedly. Taxation is heavy...but we get a lot of bang for our buck. We have been a bit lucky in the sense that finnish society is very transparent and without corruption. That explains a lot of the success of Finnish public services. They are pretty efficient and effective compared to many other countries. Finnish culture of honestness is the icing on the cake - doing business in Finland is pretty straightforward even amongst total strangers.

Posted by: getting weirder and even more interesting | May 25, 2005 08:28 PM

Thank you, Robert and Lucian, for a great entries this far! I believe Americans could learn a a lot from different aspects of Finnish society. Naturally, living abroad for a while is highly recommended for anybody. It gives you perspective and respect for your own culture, countrymen and society as well respect and deeper understanding of different cultures and
people. I would claim the former is especially true for Finns who tend to complain a lot about their country. So in no particular order, here is how I personally see Finland after living a couple of years in the U.S. And believe me I'm definitely going back to Finland,
if they still take me back... ;)

Pros:
Social homogeneity. It is relatively easy to find common ground no matter whether
it is a personal dispute or an important vote in a governmental body. Well, relatively speaking of course.

Social infrastructure. At the moment, Finnish version of Nordic welfare society works fine. Free education for everyone regardless of the level of education is truly the key to the amazing development of Finnish society from an agricultural, lo-tech society to a modern, hi-tech society. Finnish healthcare system still holds up but will face a serious challenge with the rapidly aging population - obviously a common nominator for any Western society. However, although
the taxation is relatively high generally speaking Finns are rather satisfied for the
public services they get for their tax money. On the other hand, Finnish society is based on true equalitarianism - not empty words (obviuosly in this sense there is no perfect place and even Finland still has a lot to improve).

Honesty. This projects to many levels of society. Very importantly, Finnish society is widely free of corruption on every level. Furthermore, Finns are highly reliable employees. This probably also owes to the rather homogenous religious background. The educational system has its roots in pragmatic lutheranism, a basis for values and moral for basically every Finn. On the other hand, Finns are very direct. They will tell you exactly how they feel or see things. This might come as a surprise for many in practise.

Common sense. The educational system is highly claimed for a reason. However, traditionally street smarts are highly respected in the society. Perhaps reflecting the relative closeness
of the rural roots of an average Finn.

Sisu. Tenacity, stamina, guts; whatever you want to call it. Something special that you
find highly enriched in the Finnish population. A wonderful thing that makes things happen when really needed. Likely, without this unifying feature Finland would not have been able to maintain its independence during/after World War II.

Clean, beautiful nature. Living in an international metropol visiting Finnish countryside (basically meaning 30 miles out of Helsinki) is such an incredible joy. You don't need to be much of a futurologist predicting that the incredble fresh water resources of all the Nordic countries
will be a good investment. But also an important resource to cherish.

Safety. In an average Finnish town, your kids will walk or bike (or ski!) to school. You don't have to worry if you forgot to lock the car. Oddly though, the victims of violent crimes are too often family or friends.

Humility. Never hurts but humility needs to come in tightly controlled doses.

Sauna. If you never enjoyed a good smoke sauna on a beatiful lakeside in the middle of summer, there's no way this can be explained. It is much more than getting naked and going to a very hot room. It is a tradition, a rite and most importantly a pleasure you enjoy at least twice a week. And don't you dare mention the fake Swedish copy... ;)

Cons:
Latitude. Much more so than the climate. Most Finns who never lived abroad constantly complain about the weather. However, having four seasons gives a natural rhythm to life. It is rather the lack of light during the long winter that gets depressing than the weather. Actually,
the Gulf stream makes the climate a lot warmer than you would expect looking at the map.

Alcohol. Finnish melancholy peaks with heavy drinking. Unfortunately, this correlates strongly with violent behaviour. Quite often on your friends, family and yourself. Finns do a lot of impulsive things when drunk that they would never even consider sober. Obviously, this kind of impulsive behaviour can be occasioanally highly entertaining. However, it is a thin red line...

Humility. Finns tend to be far too humble. Thus, Finns in general are not very good at marketing their products or knowhow. Consequently, highly educated, inventive Finns desperately need collaboration
with marketing-oriented, salesmen such as Americans.

Lack of self esteem. Traditionally, the small nation has been an under dog. Pretty much in everything, especially when compared to Sweden. For some odd reason, Finns like to compare themselves to Swedes occasionally reaching masochistic proportions. This is very hard to explain
but the roots are buried deep in Finnish history. However to many, lack of self esteem is definitely preferrable to obnoxiousness.

Thanks for reading! Comments?

Posted by: Henri | May 26, 2005 12:40 AM

Consider someone saying that the president has a brown hair and the speaker has a brown hair so the speaker is more civilized than any other hair-colored people.

Sounds ridiculous.

But it is everyday racism against finnish speakers. Instead of hair colour the fact of being swedish speaker is widely used. They say that the great war-general Mannerheim is a finn-swede. It is true that he spoke swedish because it was forbidden to have anykind of education in finnish at that time. Acually he was dutch-originated who studied in russia.

It was not until 1930 when finnish language was allowed to be used in any kind if higher education. And for some incomprehensable reason everyone from history is said to be a swedish speaker and the present swedish speakers are more civilized, better etc...

So this methaphore about hair colour. Sounds stupid but the average finn is degraded because there were no finnish speakers in national history and it is said that learn swedish in order to be civilized. To prove this the usual list of swedish names is said.

Posted by: Thomas | May 26, 2005 01:12 AM

To Eduardo "Eddie" Hernandez, who ever so resourcefully contributes to this blog:

After reading your comments, I hereby classify you as a so-called forum troll. That is, a person whose primary motivation for textual output is to provoke emotional responses from other participants. Many things you say are indeed based on real issues, mind you. However, you do generalize far more than an intelligent person trying to sincerely analyze actual facts would. Either this conduct is a result of your own mindset (which you seem to bring forth both knowingly and unknowingly) or you are indeed just having a good time trolling.

On many occasions you contradict yourself in a manner suggesting this sort of profile. For example, you write about the position of women in the Finnish society, depicting women as servants in everyday situations. However, reading between the lines, you actually seem to accept and even promote this kind of gender-based submission. You joke about such arrangements being actually desirable for the male, and you also use structures like "I'm going crazy in this country so we'll be returning to Los Angeles this summer." It's hard not to notice the implicit one-way causal relationship between yourself and the rest of the family. No, this doesn't necessarily tell anything about the actual state of your family life - but it does bring forth your own trail of thought when you're writing about it.

You also portray yourself as evaluating everyday life - both your own and others' - from within a blatantly stereotypical set of "American dream" values. On the other hand you say: "I agree, the world has to strive towards cleaner ways of living and this is researched in california and other states extensively", yet you proceed to describe the way of life which you, again according to your own words, miss: "I don't think most americans want to be rich either. But our definitions of comfortable and independent are very different. Americans with families do not feel comfortable and independant unless they have a house with over 100 sq meters (1000 sq ft), they must own a suv or minivan to comfortably travel with the kids, and everything else varies. Finns can cram their families into a tiny car and live in a 75 sq meter house comfortably and generally feel they are living a great life. And everything in their house will be very simple and gathered over many years of saving up." You deliberately reinforce common stereotypes of both nationalities, conveniently negate your own environmental talk, and expertly fail to see any bigger picture.

My favourite blurb from you is the supposed Finnish happiness (when did the suicide rates turn into that, by the way?) emerging from "NOT KNOWING WHAT IS OUT THERE!" - as you so eloquently put. That is indeed something to quote in the future :). I hope you had fun trolling, I just wanted to point out that there are plenty of people who don't exactly buy it unquestioned.

Posted by: A Citizen of the World | May 26, 2005 01:46 AM

Saying all people who think that the current school system is messed up are bigots is like saying that all anti-zionist's are neo-nazis. It's an unfair generalization. You people should have better argument's.

Ofcourse Anti-Swedish-speaking activist's are nuts. They take things too far, but they are a very small minority. MOST Finns who are against the bilinqual system have nothing against the Swedish speakers. All group's have their share of idiot's. I'm sure most Swedish speakers aren't real proud of Tony Halme or that what's-her-name Nina Äsplund (is that her name?).

I for one have never been or never will be a Anti-Swedish-speaker(Swedish speakers are finns like the rest of us), but I'm still against the special treatment that Swedish has in this coutry. Student's should have the opportunity to concentrate on more important lanquages like German or Russian with out the fear of becoming b-grade citizens.

Tata, H

Posted by: Hannes Vauhkonen | May 26, 2005 01:54 AM

Stereotypes. Why do everyone love them so much. About the language issue above, I agree. Swedish language as a 2nd national language makes me feel a bit angry cos' as I see it, Swedes were out to destroy Finnish language and Finnish identity. It's called ethnic clensing right? Russian of course tried the very same thing, but still, I'm speaking Finnish. The religion in here is pretty much the same thing, when you hear a really old Finnish word (the first actually) describing the 'God of Mountain' (perkele) is when you hear a Finnish person cursing. That's how the church made it.

Posted by: Ukko | May 26, 2005 02:09 AM

You obviously missed all my points and employed ad hominem attack instead. My English is not actually that bad. Heh. This is a known tactic of our Swedish speaking minority.

Posted by: Pauli Ojanperä | May 26, 2005 02:47 AM

Dear Pauli Ojanpera,

I don't know why you are talking to yourself. It can of course be funny.

From your latest posting I can actually see that you are much smarter than it appears. It's very clever to write bad English as a method of argumentation. You are so smart that I don't actually understand why you do it. I guess there must be a reason. I don't know if the Swedish-speakers use this tactics. I don't think so...

Best regards,

Juha

Posted by: Juha Kontunen | May 26, 2005 03:14 AM

Considering my dad was from a Swedish-speaking family I think that I can say a few things on the issue. Finnish-Swedish is different from Rikssvenska. Grammatically and culturally. Problem is, I can't understand **** from what they speak in Stockholm and they as well can't understand some Närpes pami. So what do you do is switch to English so both can understand. The advantages come if you are more fluent; but if you are on the average "not mycke interesting" for 3-4 years its quite useless.

I mean speaking Finnish enables you to understand Stadin Slangi, Raumalaisse Jaaritukset and Estonian, eh?

Posted by: Hank W. | May 26, 2005 03:22 AM

http://pre20031103.stm.fi/suomi/tao/julkaisut/omakieli/image/kuva1.gif

Here you can see the present reality in Finland. All major cities are biligual even though the number of swedis-speakers are usually from 3% to 8%. The swedish speakers are actually very bilingual and the finnish speakers not. Half of the (finnish) primary school graduates have swedish skills near to flunking grade.

But what results of this so called bilingualism. First of all university quotas

http://www.valmennusakatemia.com/tilastot.htm

Here you see some harsh reality. For university grade economical studies there are for example in Helsinki 504 places for finnish speakers 92% majority and 397 places for swedish speakin 6% minority. If a finnish speaker tries to apply to swedish quota he or she will have to take a language test which is so difficult that in result 90% of the quota students are from the minority.

There is even an own university for swedish speakers callen Åbo Akademi which has a similar language barrier. There is a university place more or less reserved for almost all swedish speakers (2000 swedish speaking upper secondary school graduates, more than 1500 quota university places). For the finnish spkeakers only about 15% will ever have an university degree.

So if you in Washington Post wonder the fury in which the critics of language politics are said to be mentally ill minority haters then you know that things are not that simple.

Posted by: Help | May 26, 2005 03:23 AM

As long as universities have their quotas, students are not that good. An intelligent Finnish-speaker could have the place of a stupider Swedish-speaker who gets a study place only because his mother tongue gets him a study place! It is WASTE OF TALENT!!!

Posted by: Finnatic | May 26, 2005 04:11 AM

The Finnish education focuses highly on languages, not so much on maths and sciences. Most of the younger generation are at least semi-fluent in english, and studying yet another language is encouraged. Plus, you *have to* study Swedish, needed it or not. Imagine all americans having to study French.. no too easy, too similar... say, Japanese which is not that difficult but quite different.

The bad English written by some of the anti-Swedish posters is revealing. Both Swedish and English are germanic languages, but Finnish is completely different from both of them. If a child learns Swedish at home or grows in a Swedish-speaking areas, he has a change to understand the concept of "a/an/the", and occasionally get some of the prepositions correct. On the otherhand, without the Swedish-speaking background, even learning English takes a lot of efforts. And those from the mid- and northern Finland do not have that background. Sad as it may sound, go anywhere, ask anobody, learning Swedish is simply hated. Sure, learning any language makes it easier to learn yet another, but too many is too many.

landet heter wrote: "If you study Swedish for 8 years and read it daily without learning it...? I don't know.. I would feel pretty stupid. In that time I would even learn Chinese. Most Finns actually speak Swedish. At least those who have an education."
I know only a hand-full of Finns who can speak Swedish and are not of Swedish-speaking family. I got my Ph.D at the age of 26, and I speak Finnish, English, Hebrew and German, but I managed to pass all levels of schools and university without being able to communicate in Swedish more than average american can communicate in French. Which means that I can recognize some words, but cannot answer a telephone. A complete waste of my time and the government money. With the Swedish-speakers, I communicate in Finnish. With Swedes from Sweden we speak English.

Posted by: mordechai | May 26, 2005 04:21 AM

Who are more liberal peoples:
-Sweden repealled the ban to speak Finnish in Sweden's schools already the year 1958.

-Norway repealled the similar ban first the year 1970 in Norway's schools.

Still Norway is in charge on giving annually Nobel Peace Prize and not Sweden.

Finland and Russia are out of question, because the ban to use Finnish as a language of instruction was repealled already the year 1863 in Grand-Duchy of Finland (a part of Russia that time).

The Indo-Europeans have different values and native peoples of Northern-Europe,who are Fennno-Ugrian nations, can jus wonder
how different they are from ours.

Btw.Don't bother Finnish "Uncle Toms" who are angry for those Finns who are not for mandatory Swedish language lectures but are for freeeeedom.

Posted by: Native North-European | May 26, 2005 04:23 AM

I´m also a Finlander, living now in Tampere,
( http://www.tampere.fi/english/index.html )
So many places to see in Finland (in finnish it´s Suomi), so many things to feel.

Know this... allmost every youth speaks and understands english, so don´t afraid to ask directions or just talk with them.
We might be a little melancholic, but you might say that it comes from long winter.

A few places I´d like to introduce, those which are interesting and nice to see.

1. Pyynikki ridge, has very good donuts and great view over the city (remember to take your camera with you, and tie your hat in the head :O) http://accord.mindonmove.com/mediatampere/xhtml/compile.jsp?page=174&mainpage_id=36&service_id=1&id=36

2. Näsinneula observation tower and Särkänniemi amusement park (closer and higher place to see and have fun in the park)
http://www.sarkanniemi.fi/english/index.php

3. Enjoy the trees and forest, not only in parks but everywhere. Where for example in Washington has roads and houses, we have trees and green, where Washington has trees, we have roads and houses.
If you want to look what Tampere looks like from airplane, go to: http://www.tampere.fi/ytoteto/kartta/map.php?kieli=2
in up choose MAPS and AERIAL PHOTOS.

Many countries say that we are the most American like coutry in europe, that might be true. But what plus we have, and what minus...

+ pure water from water pipe (many coutries you have to drink only in bottled water, not in here).
+ better education, why do you think that we have so high level technology companies.
+ green in everywhere.

- mosquitos and black flys in summer, and no, they didn´t spread any disease.

+ & - long winter, more ski time, dark, cold etc.

Welcome to visit in Suomi, Finland, Tampere

Posted by: Tommi Pihlaisto | May 26, 2005 04:28 AM

I'm just going to skip this whole "blah blah" about Swedish speaking Finns and the "hate".. It really isn't that big a deal for many Finns.
One downside in the Finnish education system I'd like to point out is the number of people having/getting a master's degree (or even bachelor's degree). We are facing a problem here. We are running out of "the working men" and unemployment among academically educated is increasing.. Hopefully our government realizes this before it's too late. Soon there will be no one to do the "dirty" jobs!

Posted by: Mikko | May 26, 2005 05:02 AM

Sibelius and Mannerheim were also Finnish speakers....it is completely crazy statement to say that bilingual or multi-lingual people are Swedish speakers.
Don't you see how contradictive statement it is but used widely in Finland as a tool to hit "lower caste" Finns.

To give for the outsiders some background:

Finnish society has based on a sort of caste system. A Finn was permitted to climb upwards in a social ladder if he/she gave up Finnish language and Finnish first-name and family-name and adopted Swedish language and took Swedish first- and familyname. (Typical colonialistic politics as every educated American understands)

As a result of this Swedish origin caste-system,that exists partially still,the social-political-economical elite was Swedish speaking. Now "bi-lingual".

That make some Finland's Swedish speaking "Uncle Toms" to boast how important Swedish culture was for Finland.

They,on purpose, "forget" that it was not possible to get educaation in Finnish at all. It was forbidden. First Russian rule in the 19th century gradually started to change the Swedish origin caste system into more democratical educational system.

When such a system existed for about 500 years its relics are not easy to wipe out because it is also a question of a collective mind.

Those who enjoy of the benefits of the system,like for instance 20 % quotas for the Swedish speakers in the higher education in the field of business economics,naturally like to belittle the opponents of a such a caste system.

The pro-mandatory Swedish lobby should write their arguments here for wider audience and make also the American to laugh.

Some weeks ago, representant of Swedish Popular Party declared in State Television that a Finn is first then fully civilized person is he or she speaks Swedish. Just an example.

In the Finnish-Swedish mergers of companies the Finns are called Hutus of the company and the Swedes Tutsies of the company for example in the cases like Nordea Bank or TeliaSonera.

Concerning PISA-survey. Finland's Swedish speaking schools got lower points and thus made Finland's results lower if only Finnish speaking schools had been in the survey.

That makes the Finnish speakers to say that the quotas for the Swedish speakers in the higher education must be humiliating for them in terms of the historical background.

They had not access to a higher education without quotas.

Swedish speaking University of Abo Academi for example arranges separate Swedish language "tests" for the graduates from Finnish colleges even if the Finnish speaking aplicant had got best scores in the entrance-tentament which takes place in Swedish from the Swedish langauge books;)

Similar system existed in the Deep South of USA in order to keep the Afroamericans out of higher "white only" education.

Abo Academi uses the language test in Swedish as a similar tool. If there is "too many" Finnish speaking persons passing the entrance tentaments the level of Swedish langauge test will be strengthened to a degree that members of "lower caste" don't occpy the entire university.

The aim is that 25 % of the students were Finnish speakers allthought Finnish speaking Finns are over 90 % of the population. That is Scandinavian style caste system.

The visitors are not informed about these.
As mentioned the Finns are shy,speacially Finland-Swedes, who hardly like to tell about these "intern" arangements in details.

Posted by: Native North-European | May 26, 2005 05:17 AM

"One would think that a country that considers equality important would treat mothers and fathers as equally important in the lives of their children"

Well, it is considered equally important nowadays. Nowadays there are also paternal leaves, unheard of some years ago. And fathers can stay away from work to take care of their sick children. But the important thing that should be changed still remains: All the financial burden goes to mother´s employer, and that should be shared by employers of both parents.

The custody thing: I think it has more to do with gender, not the fact that the other parent is a foreign citizen. Courts still tend to rule in favour of mothers, sometimes even in cases when the father really would be a more able parent.

Posted by: | May 26, 2005 05:18 AM

It's a shame that the excellent points wroite by "A foreign journalist" have sinked in the bog of pointless language argument.

Posted by: | May 26, 2005 05:28 AM

This language argument does not exist in public word but in reality it is one of the most discussed topics in Finland. Reasons why it does not show officially are:

-Government TV and radio has a swedish-speaker CEO and many swedish speaking directors

-The other two TV-channels are swedish-owned

-Major newspapers are either swedish or swedish speaking owned or controlled.

-Swedish peoples party is always in government so speaking against it would be losing ones government-post in next elections.

One good example is the "suomi puhuu" program on national TV. There a swedish speaker stated that in order to be civilised on must speak swedish. This resulted in massive reply to the programs internet-page. Next a swedish-speaking organisation threatened the program with police and at the end of the day about 40 comments were censored from the internet-page and some pro swedish-speaking comments were added afterwards.

Polls show that repeatedly 60%-70% of all finns want to eradicate mandatory swedish but as stated above nothing happens. The internet is of course overturned the situation. And the race-card, so to speak, is a real threat. The situation in finland is the same if any american defending any black rights would immediately be labeled as black panther (thus silenced)

Posted by: Thomas | May 26, 2005 05:52 AM

This language thing is intriguing... It is common knowledge in Finland that the number of the swedish speaking majority is dwindling all the time, they all speak finnish...

Abo Akademi is a particularly misleading example of a "caste" system. It is supposed to be for the swedish speakers. There are 20 universities in Finland out of which 2 small ones are for swedish speakers. The universities are so small that they would minor faculties for University of Helsinki.

It's still hard for me to believe that some Finns want to keep this sort of discussion going on. My best guess is that if it weren't for swedish speakers, you would like to persecute some other minority. Intolerance is oh so nice, isn't it? How about thinking about some of the more important questions, let's say agricultural subsidies, which are sucking up so much of our tax money it's hard to believe? This is an even more sensitive question to Finns. Almost everybody is in consensus that countryside needs it's subsidies and are willing to give up insane amounts of money to a small group of people...

So let's face it: there are various interest groups hawkishly guarding their share of the tax money and resources. It is just politics. You get what you can campaign for.

But please do understand that the question of minorities is a basic human rights issue. We Finns need our rights assured, whether we speak finnish, swedish, samish or whatever. Schools teach a lot of crap all over the world, because of their public nature. Everybody wants to have a say about the curriculum. Those who succeed are those who are good at cherry-picking the signal from the noise, a fact which will not change even if all subject matters would change.

Posted by: getting weirder and even more interesting | May 26, 2005 06:21 AM

As we finnish people say: It is a lottery win
to born in finland.

Posted by: Hencca | May 26, 2005 06:34 AM

"2 small ones are for swedish speakers. The universities are so small that they would minor faculties for University of Helsinki"

500 and 1000 annual places for 2000 (swedish speaking) applicants. For the finnish speakers only 15% get into a university.

"would like to persecute some other minority. Intolerance is oh so nice"

Race card, actual subject suppressed. Basically harmless on the internet but devastating in the traiditional media.
Note that the issue is finnish speakers own language studies and criticism about really unfair university system.

Posted by: Thomas | May 26, 2005 06:43 AM

"getting weirder and even more interesting" posts lies.

"the number of the swedish speaking majority"
This a lie. Only 5% of the population speak Swedish.

"There are 20 universities in Finland out of which 2 small ones are for swedish speakers"
That is 10% of the universities, for 5% of the population, and you've mentioned nothing about the even more disproportionate admittance quotas for multiple universities, exclusively for apartheidist caste.

"It's still hard for me to believe that some Finns want to keep this sort of discussion going on. "
It is strange to you, isn't it, when publicity is brought to the crimes, and the discussion isn't censored.

"you would like to persecute some other minority."
Isn't it interesting, when we try to expose the corrupt caste system and resist compulsory swedish, the apartheidist cries "persecution". Yet the only ones being persecuted by compulsory swedification are us Finns.

"Intolerance is oh so nice, isn't it?" Intolerance of what? Human rights crimes? Why can't you tolerate freedom from yoke-swedish for Finns? This is what we want!

"How about thinking about some of the more important questions, let's say agricultural subsidies"
You would like to avoid the subject from compulsory swedish, wouldn't you? You claim agricultural subsidies are a more important question, yet the cost to the Finnish people of yoke-swedish is many times greater, the interior minister accidentally slipped "billions" of euros is the cost. This is money which could be used to heal sick people and feed children. Instead it is going to maintain a corrupt apartheid caste structure.

"But please do understand that the question of minorities is a basic human rights issue. We Finns need our rights assured, whether we speak finnish, swedish, samish or whatever. "
Again an apartheidist clouds the issue, by suggesting that the elitist apartheidists are merely trying to assure their rights. In reality, the swedification in Finland is a crime that violates EU law, and I won't be surprised when the apartheidist ministers responsible will be prosecuted for the crimes against Finns in Aland, Pietarsaari, and elsewhere.

Posted by: Anti-apartheid | May 26, 2005 07:05 AM

I wonder if anybody else than us Finns are writing their comments here. I mean that from the most recent comments that I´ve read here it seems to be so that we are the only ones.

Well, since everybody is talking about the situatin between the Finnish and the Finnish-Swedes. I live in a city which has over 50% swedish speaking community so me and all the other finnish speking people are a minority. This city is called Pietarsaari or in swedish Jakobstad. Through all my life I´ve heard swedish spoken evrywhere. To me it has always been odd (in some northern cities where the swedish population is small) to see the street sigs written only in one language and the cashiers not greeting you in swedish also. Though the Finns are a minority here there is no real hate towards them, in my opinion. We live peacefully side by side going to our separate scools but still being connected through marriages (it is very common for a child to have one parent speking swedish and the other finnish) and friendships. But I must confess that though the youth of this city has embraced the Finnish-Swedes there is still some reservations towads them in the older population. They see the Finnish-Swedes as a bit highbrow people. I believe that this way of thinking has it roots in the times when the Swedes were the aristocracy of this country a long time ago. Back then we Finns were still mostly poor and unedjucated farmers whose fields were owned by these rich Swedes.

Since then times have changed and though there are still some injustices made by both parties we all are now Finns.

A funny thing came to my mind about the times when Finland was becoming independend. The Finnish anthem (which has actually been composed by a German) that we all sing with pride on our independence day and whenever a Finn wins in sports is actually stolen. The German who they though to have composed it confessed before dying that he had copyed an old German drinking song to be our national anthem. He had thought that we wouldn´t recognize it here.

More funny details about Finland you can find in the book called From Finland with love by Roman Schatz. It is written in both finnish and english. I reccommend it to both Finns and to people from other countryes.

Posted by: Heli | May 26, 2005 07:08 AM

Okay, let's talk about unfairness of university systems.

We seem to have an agreement that education is important. Where I differ is that I don't see this language thing as an issue. If you study hard, work hard and be intelligent about your career you have a chance of succeeding with any language...

As I stated it is about politics and lobbying. Swedish speakers are very good with both. There is no set mandate for the Swedish People's Party in parliament nor do they have an assured place in government. SPP is just very, very good in cutting deals. It is in their best interest to stay in government, even when the governments composition otherwise changes completely.

This is the reason why they have slightly better opportunities in higher education. SPP cut deal after deal supporting all the other parties with their respective interests. SPP is like the perfect date, for a small appreciation they are willing to support even your stupidest ideas:)

As I see it, it just politics in real life, not about fairness. Equal opportunities for all people would be to have an university in every village and postgraduate jobs in abundance...it just won't happen.

It is the tone of this discussion that worries me. Play the game, don't shoot the players. This has bothered me with the texts of Pihkala and others lobbying hard to stop the mandatory classes of swedish language. Some swedish speakers don't fare any better.

And yes, to learn any language is helpful in learning more languages. The other thing is that without the mandatory swedish education, I would have had much fewer opportunities to work.

Learning swedish is good, for doing business in Sweden even though they all speak english.

The other side of the coin is that finnish is also mandatory for finnswedes.

Posted by: getting weirder and even more interesting | May 26, 2005 07:21 AM

It's true that Nokia doesn't manufacture phones in Finland, but the research is done here, like in Oulu.
By the way, Nokia pays anually 1.1mrd euros in taxes to goverment..
And just few months ago, Jorma Ollila said that also in future Nokia is going to be a Finnish firm.
Stockholders come around the world.´

Schoolsystem really works: the finnish highschool model has been copied for example to China.
And universities are at least as good as they are in rest of Europe.

Btw, Eddie, I think you should really be sure of the things you write in here. There were a lot of things which were simply not true.

Posted by: joonas | May 26, 2005 07:35 AM

"There is no set mandate for the Swedish People's Party"

It has been in the government for 30 years. The tactics is to allow any kind of policy as long as e.g. mandatory swedish for finns is upheld. It will be in the next government for sure.

"As I see in real life, not about fairness"

"Learning swedish is good, for doing business in Sweden even though they all speak english"

This kind on nonsense is very usual and if any TV or radio broadcasts language politics then this is their quality.
Real opposition is suppressed.

"finnish is also mandatory for finnswedes"

Two very important things. 95% learns 5%'s language which is insane and the swedish speaking minority is veri bilingual so that is not a problem. Yet you got so see very important issue: the division for finns and finnisswedes. There is no such thing as a finnish swede, some immigrants of course but for some weird reason anyone speaking swedish is sometimes considered to be a swede, not a finn.

Posted by: Thomas | May 26, 2005 07:45 AM

">"the number of the swedish speaking majority"
This a lie. Only 5% of the population speak Swedish."

No, it's not a lie, it is writing mistake, sorry about that. The actual number of swedish speaking MINORITY is 5,53%

I don't know about crimes. Aland was exclusively swedish in 1918 (wanting to join Sweden at the time), they wan't to stay that way. Stupid, maybe - a crime, I don't think so. Aland's situation was an internationally brokered agreement. I don't know about Pietarsaari anything.

What on earth is this swedification you are talking about, Mr. Apartheid? If you look at the stats the number of finnswedes is going DOWN all the time. It is a success story of finnification.

Posted by: getting weirder and even more interesting | May 26, 2005 07:45 AM

"What on earth is this swedification "

There was a what you could call an ethnic clensing during Swedish reign. These so called Finn-Swedes are NOT from Sweden but almost all finnish, german, dutch, russian who had to swedify their names.

The vårtspråk or finlansvenska, the language spoken here is composed of 60 different dialects who usually do not understand eachother. As mentioned in earlier post the vårtpråk is useless in Sweden.

Finnish TV prime time is almost every day 50% swedish on government channels, streetnames of monilingual cities , meaning real monolingual but bilingualcities on paper, are swedified, the massive university quotas swedidy the bussiness world.

In conclusion. Things are done on 50%-50% principle on a 5%-95% situation. Really unfair and it is more than a habit to start screaming nazi if someone opens his mouth about it.

Posted by: Thomas | May 26, 2005 07:54 AM

This will be my last post here.

Sometime pretty soon almost all finnish municipalities are going to be monolingual (finnish language) and the finnification is complete.

As I stated, the swedish I learned in school has proved useful for me, in Sweden and in Finland. I am a finnish speaker by birth.

Our country can have many languages...that's why I really don't see the swedish language in Finland as an issue to be worried about. Ethnic cleansing usually means mass murders, Sweden as a state never enacted such a policy in Finland. All countries had very different policies in the 18th and 19th century than today, intolerant perhaps...but not of outright mass murder.

Business in Finland is conducted in finnish or english, so I really don't know about swedification of Finnish business.

FST:s programs have captions in finnish, so they serve the finnish speaking population as well.

In conclusion. Yes, there might be a slight bias for swedish in universities. I still can't see the unfairness of it all - it's just politics. Ever so slightly unfair...maybe.

I just think that the most important questions regarding Finland are not about language.

Posted by: getting weirder and even more interesting | May 26, 2005 08:26 AM

Yeah
"Its a lottery win to be born in Finland", but don't forget the 2nd prase "and it requires one to live here."

If I got a lottery win I wouldn't complain half as much as I do now.

Posted by: Hank W. | May 26, 2005 08:40 AM

According to many studies, Swedish speakers live longer and are happier than Finnish apeakers...

"In conclusion. Yes, there might be a slight bias for swedish in universities. I still can't see the unfairness of it all - it's just politics. Ever so slightly unfair...maybe."

Everyone can apply to "Swedish" universities, if they pass a language test. And there is allways a large minority of Finnish speakers at Åbo Akademi University. At last, Swedish is a simple language for simple people;)

Posted by: | May 26, 2005 08:41 AM

What a pity that this interesting blog was occupied by a handful of anti-Swedish bigots. Please take your propaganda back to the Neo-Nazi sites, such as www.suomalaisuudeliitto.fi. Or just your favourite Esso cafeteria.

There was interesting discussion going on here before you showed up.

Posted by: Chinaski | May 26, 2005 09:19 AM

I have nothing against Sweden or Swedish..
In my opinnion Swedish should not be a language which is forced to learn in finnish schools. Everybody must have a right to decide these things on their own.

Posted by: | May 26, 2005 09:30 AM

Instead of this stupid language debate it would be very interesting to hear more from US citizens who have visited or lived in Finland. Share us your experiences!

Posted by: Pete | May 26, 2005 09:49 AM

Wow, as a native Finn, I am utterly surprised (and more than a tad bit embarrassed) about the path the discussion above has taken. It does certanly not reflect my lifetime experience as a Finn
in Finland. In my 36 years I have never come across such animosity and anger.

I was born into a Finnish speaking family, and to this day I speak maily Finnish with my Father and two brothers. I speak mainly Swedish with my mother, she in turn speaks mainly Finnish with my brothers, but both Finnish and Swedish with my father. We have an equal amount of Finnish speaking and Swedish speaking friends, and most, if not all, can switch languages at will, which we frequntly do. Some things are just better expressed in Finnish and other things are better said in Swedish. Some times we even mix the languages for fun, other times just to get our point across better. (Hey there is no word in Swedish that comes close to expressing the strentgh of "Perkele! and how exactly would you say "ja e'limin" in Finnish?) Throughout all my life I have only seen our ability to use two languages as a huge advantage and privilege. I am imensly grateful to my parents for teaching me two languages, and for raising me in a manner that allowed me to encompass these two different aspect of the Finnish culture. Anyone who I grew up with, and and who I know to this date, both in my rural contryside and in the southern cities, has only seen our dula languages as something that enriches our lives, a blessing, something we are proud of.

I would like to comment on the quote:
"The vårtspråk or finlansvenska, the language spoken here is composed of 60 different dialects who usually do not understand eachother. As mentioned in earlier post the vårtpråk is useless in Sweden."

This is factually incorrect!!!

Yes, we speak different dialects, but we certainly understand eachother perfectly well!!! The dialects are not that different! And yes, I even understand those guys from the Närpes (kva säj'ret?) :)

Also, every single one of us understand "Hog-svenska" which is the official Finish swedish language spoken without dialect.

Also, our Finnish-Swedish language is the same as the one spoken in Sweden (we call it "Riks-Svenska"). We follow the same "svenska akademiens ordlista" (the dictornary of the swedish academy") as they do in Sweden. The "melody" of the language is a bit different, but that is absolutely no barrier in communicating. We have a few words that have a slighty different meaning, but thise are few and far between, and are unlikey to be of any consequance. (Right off the cuff I can only think of one funny incident, where a friend of mine onse asked for a "semla" with his beer, hoping to get a stuffed Sandwish, but was presented with a bun with whipped cream. "Semla" in swedish is what we call a "fastlags bulle" in Finland.)

I have lived in Sweden, and used my Finlands Svenska, and it posed absolutely no problem. In fact, there are many Finnish Swedish speking artists in Sweden who have become much beloved and well known thruout Sweden!

Also, I would like to point out that learning Swedish is no obstacle to learning other languages. I studies Finnish, Swedish and Enlish in elementay School. In highschool German was introduced, and at the end of highschool, I was able to communicate in Finnish, Swedish, English, German. Understanding and speaking Sweish also alows communication with Norwegians And Danes, because Norwegian and Danish is so similar to Swedish. Since then I have learnt a few other languages, and it has been particaularily easy, precisely becuase Swedish is such an excellent foundation for learning other western languages!

I say anyone who complains about HAVING TO LEARN something, really needs to have a reality check. I hope I could bring them over to where I live today (small Caribben island), where many people simply do not have the privilege of good eduction), and would be flabergasted but someone so well of that they complain about having to learn another language!!!

And, all this talk about Sweish speakers somehow being the upper crust. It's Bull-manuer!!! In my neck of woods, our Swedish speaking friends happen to be were mainly farmers. There are both Finnish Speakers and Swedsish speakers in every income bracket in Finladn, and what language you speak is absolutely no indication of class, status or income bracket!

We speak, Finnish, we speak Finnish-Swedish, but we are all Finns. We love our country deeply. We fiercly root for Finland in all sports played against Sweden (yes, in sports we MUST BEAT THEM!), but we also have most close and warm bond with Sweden, as we share large parts of our history, culture and values.

Posted by: | May 26, 2005 09:52 AM

Sweden as spoken in Finland has actully been suggested as the Lingua Franca of Scandinavia, because it is so easy to understand.

And easy for us Finnish-speakers to pronounce. I've heard foreigners living in Denmark say that it Finnish-Swedish is much easier to understand than the Swedish variety.

But OK, this has very little to do with the actual purpose of this blog, so I'll stop here.

Posted by: Chinaski | May 26, 2005 10:05 AM

Anybody noticed the "Conan Hates My Homeland" caption in "Late Night with Conan O'Brien"?

Conan decided to insult every country in the world alphabetically, to find out where his show is being watched. And he told to send mail about the insult.

Finnish viewers sent mail long before Conan had insulted Finland.

This is a very common way of thinking in Finland. "What are they thinking about us?".

This kind of newspaper article about Finland is very serious thing for many people in Finland. Much more important than, say, bilanguality.

Posted by: Urja | May 26, 2005 10:25 AM

I really hope your trip will show those sides of Finland that make it a trip worthwile, to introduce a new destination for travellers, and to present a small, yet surprisingly multifaceted country, where there are no ice bears roaming the capital's streets and people don't live in igloos (A "joke" I've heard one too many times. I don't get it, some find it funny to be so clueless, I'd be embarassed if I found out I had such misconceptions and made such gross stereotypifications. but oh well). I wish it remain unpolitical, and stick to showing how Finland is in the eyes of a foreigner. I don't think this forum's the place to start debating national language policies (which are quite trivial for about everybody on this planet except us Finns). I'm not saying that Finland should be overglorified and made into something it isn't, overpromising isn't good either. But rather saying that those things should be highlighted that Finland can be proud of (clean forests, safety, good standard education, etc. the sort of stuff that aren't givens in many other parts of the world). I hope you two enjoy your 3 weeks and that your reporting gives a welcoming, yet realistic view of Finland, and inspires many more Americans (and others) to come visit us.

Posted by: Sara | May 26, 2005 11:04 AM

"Swedish speakers live longer and are happier than Finnish apeakers..."

Well, of course they do, since the Finnish speakers tend to spend their entire life complaining about how unfairly they're treated. If I was that bitter, I'd die sooner, too.

Posted by: Tero Paananen | May 26, 2005 11:06 AM

Do you people notice, how far are our Swedes willing to go to keep their view that abusing inherited political and economical power is a totally acceptable means to spread Swedish culture in the most Finnish speaking (92%) country in the world? Year after year, gallup polls tell that more than two thirds of Finns would be willing to trash compulsory Swedish in schools.

Posted by: Pauli Ojanperä | May 26, 2005 11:39 AM

Do you people notice how easy is become Swedish-speaker Finland in. Those not speakers write like Yoda speak.

All you have to do is to be of a different opinion than Pauli Ojanperä (Paul Dike's Ass).

How much bitterness can there be in one boy?

You must understand that it's people like P Dike's Ass that end up committing suicide when they finally understand that the train is gone and they never bothered to buy a ticket.

Posted by: Juha Kontunen | May 26, 2005 12:13 PM

Can someone explain, why there is compulsory swedish for all Finns, even though only 5% of the people are swedish?

Can someone explain, why compulsory swedish continues, even though many gallups have clearly shown that 60-70% of Finns don't want compulsory swedish?

Can someone explain, why Finns who stand up for their own cultural and language rights are called viscious racist names?

Posted by: Is it evil? | May 26, 2005 12:37 PM

Finnish is secondmost spoken Nordic language and an old Scandinavian language,too.

It is just fair to give Finnish a more equal status in Scandinavia/Nordic countries including Finland (=Aland).

These guys who oppose the equality between Finnish and Swedish speakers of Nordic countries also dislike the equality between the sexes.

The present state of affairs that equality between Finnish and Swedish speakers is discrimination of Swedish speakers should belong to the past.

Posted by: Ajatus | May 26, 2005 12:47 PM

Reason why Finland has a really low living standard compared to germany-france-denmark-switzerland-holland etc.:

Decades of government that just does not care.
- Cost of huge subsidies to the agricultural sector (they even make sugar here, look at the map, think about if that is wise, say, about -20% off the gdp every year)
- Cost of the swedish language (say, -20% off the gdp every year): not so much that all have to study it (though it makes us all speak very bad english compared to others and not able to learn any more languages) - but the fact that we are de facto governed by them who speak it: kind of like in south africa they had the small minority who governed the majority, they make bad decisions and the majority is not cared about at all
-other subsidies to big companies etc. - small people get nothing, all kinds of companies ( - 10%)and governmental offices (-20%maybe) that do nothing get all

As for Finnish culture ?
Here, a finnish travel show (cult tv program, a bit leftist)
http://www.stranded.to/madventures/video.php
Last show was good, guy wakes up, has hangover, does not know where he is, asks someone, starts drinking, drinks, wakes up, does not know where is...

Posted by: Culture | May 26, 2005 12:51 PM

You really need to investigate the Winter War. I am sure most Americans do not realize that in 1939, hundreds of thousands of Russian soldiers lost thier lives trying to take the country.

I have always had the theory that Hitler watched and decided that if a rag tag bunch of Finns could hold off a million man Russian army, it would be a walk in the park for the Germans to conquer Russia.

It was certainly the turning point in WW2.

Posted by: Bill B | May 26, 2005 12:51 PM

I'm a Swedish-speaking Finn. I'm 32 years old, university educated (Åbo Akademi), got in by working up a 6L exam result (it's the same as being a straight A student), have grown up in a few different small towns along the south coast. My professional life is conducted about 50/50 in Swedish and in Finnish. I'm paid slightly above the average Finnish salary in a pretty average job, have a big morgage, small apartment, and a pretty good life overall. My life is very similar to my Finnish speaking collegues living in the same circumstances.

There is a stereotype image of an urban Swedish speaking person being wealthy, loud and used to "daddy" paying for every and anything. There are maybe a few hundred people who loosely fit this stereotype image, and most of them live in and around Helsinki. The rest of us Swedish-speaking Finns find them a bit ridiculous, and quite amusing. Some Finnish speaking Finns are wildly provoked by them and think we're all like that.

The fact is that what's previously been said about us all being pretty similar to the rest of the population, and found in all income brackets is true. We do value being able to use our mother tongue throughout life in school, in hospitals, in situations of a legal nature and everywhere in between.

I've never met and known a Finnish speaking person who has learned even passable Swedish saying he doesn't need it. I do know it's not considered easy to learn. Neither is Finnish, but we all do the best we can. The key to being fluent in any language is practice. Of course, if you live somewhere where you can practice your skills in natural situations it will be easier to learn.

We Swedish-speaking Finns who have had so much opportunity to practice our Finnish often make the mistake of switching a conversation to Finnish fast (impatience, sorry) even when the Finnish speaking person is eager to practice his Swedish. We need to do better on that.

If you live under conditions where you never hear a language spoken "for real", it is understandable that the motivation to learn is low. Not making the most of the opportunity is however short-sighted, and as stated above, Swedish is an excellent help when learning english (especially when practicing pronounciation) and german, for exemple. On the other hand, my being fluent in Finnish hasn't made it more difficult learning English even when the languages don't have much in common.

Swedish speaking and Finnish speaking Finns intermarry a lot, and the children are usually brought up in the Swedish speaking system. We also have slightly higher nativity rates, and we live longer (I think, don't remember the statistics exactly). Any hopes of us disappearing is pretty much wishful thinking by some, if anything, our number will grow.

Along with the children of bilingual families the Swedish schools are also popular with families wishing to put their Finnish speaking children there. If you don't speak Swedish in the home it's quite a challenge for the child and the family to cope, but it's done every day.

I haven't heard of any school where it's forbidden to speak Finnish. I can well imagine schools where a lot of the pupils come from Finnish speaking backgrounds, and revert to Finnish in converstation. If it's encouraged to use exclusively Swedish in school under such circumstances, I do find it understandable. It's not from a negative attitude towards the Finnish language, more the view that to support fluency in a language they are meant to learn, they need to use it in everyday life as well as in lessons. Out of school, you use whatever language rolls of your tongue first. The beauty of being bilingual!

Accents: Imagine English spoken with a British accent and with an American accent. That's the difference between Swedish in Finland and in Sweden. The grammar is exactly the same. Slang differs, as it does anywhere geografically.

Enough about languages. After all in everyday life we all just get on with things and use whatever means we can to make ourselves understood.

It is quite interesting to see ourselves through the eyes of others, but I agree that the articles so far have been written wearing slighty rose tinted glasses. No country is perfect, but I am quite happy living here, and the way the US seems to be turning into a right-wing one-party state, I'm not enetertaining any longing feelings towards any "American Dream".

Oh and,

my home is full of "second hand furniture". It's called Vintage Finnish Design (Alvar Aalto, Ilmari Tapiovaara, Paavo Tynell), it's there because I like it, not because I can't afford anything else. It's also full of handmedowns. That's called Family Heirlooms, and that concept should be familiar to anyone ;-)

Finnish national taste is generally geared towards plain lines and quality rather than "newer, bigger, bolder".

Posted by: Annika | May 26, 2005 12:59 PM

My mom called me last night to tell me about this diary and blog. I have really enjoyed reading the diary and all the posts. I am currently hosting my 3rd Finnish exchange student and myself went to visit there in 1999. I love Finland. All three boys I have hosted are totally different (except that they were all blond and like ice hockey!). I have learned much about the Finnish people - but I could host 10 more kids and still not be able to claim myself an expert on Finns and their culture. It may be a small country - but the people still varied and have many different views. One thing that made me laugh is where someone posted that Finns say all Swedish guys are gay. THAT IS SO TRUE!!! But since I have hosted students from Norway, Denmark, Sweden and Estonia over the years - I can safely say that all the other countries say bad stuff about Swedes - but funnily enough the Swedes do not disparage those from the other countries in Scandanavia! Now that I have discovered this diary and the blog - I will read it everyday. I hope that is generates a lot of interest in Finland. The organization I host with is always looking for new host families. If anyone out there would like to host a high school aged exchange student from Finland for 11 months (and I highly recommend it!) - please look at the website of YOUTH FOR UNDERSTANDING (www.yfu.org). You will learn so much and at the same time foster greater world understanding of the United States and its diversity.

Posted by: Shawn B. | May 26, 2005 01:10 PM

Swedish men seem to pay a LOT of attention to grooming and fashionable clothes. Far more than Finnish men in general.

The Swedes end up looking a bit feminine, and thus fit a certain stereotype of gay men. Thus the label. Unfair? Yes.

Posted by: Annika | May 26, 2005 01:35 PM

I also heard incest was a big problem in Finland.. is that true?

Posted by: | May 26, 2005 01:51 PM

"Instead of this stupid language debate it would be very interesting to hear more from US citizens who have visited or lived in Finland. Share us your experiences!"

At the moment I'm actually working on a blog to publish, among other things, a manuscript for a book about my experience living here. It doesn't have any files posted yet, but the URL is http://www.writingsbycaroline.blogspot.com/
Stay tuned...:)

Posted by: Caroline | May 26, 2005 01:52 PM

I'm a Finn living in Southwestern Finland, in Vammala.

I'm very happy to see the problem of compulsory swedish being discussed here, because the problem doesn't get the attention it deserves in the Finnish press. Compulsory swedish really needs to be weeded out of the Finnish areas of our country, it's long overdue.

When I read the posts "arguing" in favor of compulsory swedish, I'm amused at the bile being spewed against those who favour choice in Finnish language education. Also amusing are the ridiculous anectodal and self-centered nature of the "arguments."

The whiners remind one of a child, who is told they can no longer have candy for dinner. You try to explain that eating candy for dinner is wrong, that the candy must be had after dinner and shared with brothers and sisters. You try to take their lollipops away, and they start screaming and crying and call you a dodo head.

This phase is only temporary for them. Compulsory swedish will disappear soon, and the whiners will quite capably maintain their swedish language and culture without forcing it down all our throats, and making us pay the bill.

Then they will get over it and move on. Otherwise they should be on the Dr. Phil show ;)

Posted by: Roope Mäkinen | May 26, 2005 02:10 PM

Wonderful articles about Socialist Finland!

Thank You for writing about my Country so nicely.

Stories are almost too good to be true - It is wonderful, what money can purchase.

I am also asking you to have a look to the other side of the story.

Let us hope we do not run out of toilet tissue while having you as our guests.

Sincerely,

Ake Tyvi

Ps. You may use google or Indipendent Media.

Posted by: Ake Tyvi | May 26, 2005 02:33 PM

An interesting series of articles. I found the opening article somewhat one sided.

Finland is not a perfect country, as there can be no such thing. I quite enjoyed my stay in the US some years ago, and I am enjoying my life in Finland, these days. The people in the two countries are strikingly similar, after the first 30 minutes. The 30 minutes do make quite a difference for the casual observer, though, as can be witnessed in many an opinion. Either way, I am interested to see how these articles turn out as it is my own personal experience and opinion that the Finns and Americans are much more alike as people than the Finns and some of our European friends.

As a sidenote, I am appalled to find this page littered by a handful of extremists trying to put forth their agenda. To put this rage in context from my perspective I will say this - As a Finnish speaking Finn, I was mildly irritated by the mandatory Swedish back in school. Not unlike I was irritated to have to learn chemistry, instead of some of my favourite subjects.

Posted by: Sami, Oulu, Finland | May 26, 2005 02:33 PM

Sami, exactly! Finnish wasn't my favourite subject either, neither was chemistry, but we got by.

Posted by: Annika | May 26, 2005 02:54 PM

"Swedish is an excellent help when learning english (especially when practicing pronounciation) and german, for exemple"

"Swedish is such an excellent foundation for learning other western languages!"

This is one of the most imaginative arguments ever made for compulsory swedish.

The best way to learn german, english or any other language is to study them. It's ridiculous to claim that you should first learn some other language to make it easier.

It just shows how there really is no sensible arguments for compulsory swedish.

Posted by: in case you didn't notice | May 26, 2005 02:59 PM

I live in the States and travelled to Finland often on business. Finland is a very efficient, clean, honest country. It is a treat for anyone to be in Finland in June - that is the very best. Light until midnight!

I am not impressed with the architecture in Helsinki. They seemed to have knocked down all the beautiful old bldgs in the past sometime during some well-meaning but thoughtless 1960s and 70s renovation. Even moreso in Tampere I thought. Walk down Hki's esplanade and note the gorgeous architecture, and you can see what the rest of the city could have remained. I wonder what Mannerheim(sp?) avenue looked like at one time, before the Forum and all those other shops went up. Perhaps bldgs looked more like Stockmann's. Perhaps I am being too old-school and not futuristic enough. Finns want to comment? For a country that prides itself on pristine nature, it does not treat landmark bldgs well. Not that NYC is any better, but Central Park is a gem.

The best bookstore I have EVER been in is Hki's Akademski (I will butcher it if I go further)...basically, the "Academic bookstore" across from Stockmann's. Wow - I love it.

Why do you Finns drink milk at lunch? Don't do that anymore! Milk is for chocolate cake and breakfast!!! :-)

Posted by: Huckleberry Finn | May 26, 2005 03:06 PM

First. I'm sorry that the rest of this message is in finnish, but I must do this. I'll be glad if someone wants to partly translate this to English.

Mik� vittu meit� Suomalaisia vaivaa? Ruotsinkieli suomessa ei ole kenellek��n k�yt�nn�n ongelma. Palvelua saa tarvittaessa suomeksi kaikkialla, sek� ruotsinkieliset saavat sit� my�s ruotsiksi. Mik� kansallinen perim� ajaa meid�t tappelemaan omasta kielest�mme, jolla ei ole mit��n katoavaisuuden vaaraa, nyt - kun tuhannet ulkomaisetkin silm�parit seuraavat t�t� keskustelua.

Olen kuullut etteiv�t pienet lapset aina itke, jollei kukaan ole n�kem�ss�. Onko t�ss� kyse siit�, ett� itsetuntomme vaatii sit�, ett� "suomenkielisten alistaminen" p��see maailman medioihin.

On totta, ett� Ruotsin kieli on vain relikti. J��nne historiasta. Verrattakoon sit� uskontoon, josta my�s paljon on t��ll� kirjoitettu. Kukaan kirkkoon kuuluva ei koe latinan kielt� kielelliseksi uhkaksi, vaikka sit� edelleen historiallisista syist� k�ytet��n kirkon johdossa. Suomea johdettiin vuosisatoja ruotsiksi, muttei en��. Ei meid�n tarvitse pel�t� ja puolustautua. Emme h�p�e kuulumistamme ven�j��n, emmek� Ruotsiin. Ruotsin kieli on osa historiaamme, vaikka onkin k�sitt�m�t�nt� miksi sen yll�pit�miseen haaskataan rahoja. Ehk� se on joillekin ylpeyden aihe. Itse olen ylpe� veteraaneista. Annan mielell�ni rahaa t�lle Suomen puolesta uhrautuneelle, harvenevalle joukolle. En yksitt�isen henkil�n, van sen perinn�n vuoksi, jonka heilt� saimme. Miksen samalla tavoin voisi kunnioittaa ruotsinkielt�, joka joskus antoi meille kulttuurimme ja identiteettime.

Posted by: Suomalainen | May 26, 2005 03:11 PM

http://personal.inet.fi/atk/pehkonen/webcam.htm
I've been checking out these people for three years or so from time to time and they offer an insight on finnish life and customs.

Posted by: dave | May 26, 2005 03:17 PM

I am surprised by comments from Finns that unemployment is a problem. Seems to me when I worked at Nokia, the Finns never, and I mean NEVER, got laid off. First to go where Americans! Too expensive I suppose!!!
It is very hard to lay off Finnish workers in Finland. Not impossible, but difficult. I think it is written in law or something like that. Must not be very beneficial to the companies, I must say.

That is why there is a lot of "dead-wood" at Nokia-Finland. Or what I would call dead-wood, at least. People who should have been laid off years ago but still exist, with titles like Supervisor of Processes and Procedures and like titles. They would never exist in many American companies (I generalize here). Not exactly 'American start-up/pre-IPO' material if you ask me.

Posted by: Huckleberry Finn | May 26, 2005 03:25 PM

>many Finns who accept abortion in Finland would be against it in the US. That is why there is no controversy in the issue in Finland. It's all about details.

In Finland, it is *always* about the details, my friend. :-)

Details - rules - procedures - processes. Rinse, repeat.

Posted by: Huckleberry Finn | May 26, 2005 03:35 PM

Annika, I appreciate your contribution to this discussion. Still, if you could realise the language problem really is not about negative attitude towards our Swedish speaking minority, but rather about the majority really being oppressed by ridiculous barriers in education and work life.

Posted by: Pauli Ojanperä | May 26, 2005 03:54 PM

About PISA and bilinguality.

Finnish bilinguality is a political myth which has been abused
to enchance the aims of an elitist clique in the Swedish speaking
minority.

In reality, 72 % of Finnish citizens (3,6 million) do live in
unilingually Finnish cities. In those areas, there are only 13000 Swedish
speaking people, 0,36 % of total. Moreover, the children of the Swedish
speaking (bilingual) minority did remarkably worse in the test than those
of the unilingual majority. You can see the bilinguality explanation doesn't
hold water.

For further information and better (fact based) explanations of the Pisa
results, consult the link below.

Sincerely yours,
Pauli

http://www.edu.fi/english/pageLast.asp?path=500,571,36263,36266
*Factors behind the good literacy performance of the Finnish youth*

Posted by: Pauli Ojanperä | May 26, 2005 04:02 PM

And, to add to my latest post, in Finnish cities coined bilingual, 90 % of the population speak Finnish as their mother tongue.

Posted by: Pauli Ojanperä | May 26, 2005 04:18 PM

Thank you for this very interesting blog on Finland. My wife's parents actually came from Kouvola. No we are a happy Texas family. We follow these pages with great interest.

What is the problem with this Pauli Ojanpera character (under different names?)??? He seems to have serious problems. I hope that he doesn't represent the typical Finn! It is very hard to understand that somebody has a problem with the fact that he's offered free language training. From what I've read the Finnish system sounds very fair. Some universities are in Finnish, some in Swedish. Everybody is taught both languages so they can choose which university to attend. Mind you. People with learning disabilities don't belong in the university. Our friend Pauli must be one of these.

Keep rocking with the blog. And PLEASE try to do something about this nut case. He is destroying a good blog.

Posted by: Jack Aking | May 26, 2005 05:20 PM

Here's all you foreigners need to know about mystical FINLAND:
http://www.co.jyu.fi/~np/misc/foreigners_guide_to_finland.html#basics

Posted by: Vellu | May 26, 2005 05:21 PM

Listen folks. Since You are so close the border line, pls do take care, since occasionally Russia have been having some military execise there, and some nerver-gas cloud may pass the bordeline.

Last time the econoy was down Russian had 600 tanks ready to roll into Finland via Karelia. Local village owners complaint, since tank engines were running 24h bases.

In case you'd like to come to USA nuclear safety zone, then we'll be more, than happy to have you here.

Posted by: Lauri Trn | May 26, 2005 05:22 PM

Seems like a bunch of trolls have taken over the blogs. The link to that "Foreigners Guide to Finland" is work of a famous finnish webtroll. You can take it as a joke.

I'm afraid this language blabber is work of a one or two fanatics, though. You should ignore them - the don't represent real Finland any more than Ku Klux Klan represents real USA.

Posted by: | May 26, 2005 05:59 PM

To Huckleberry Finn:
I agree what you said "I am not impressed with the architecture in Helsinki. They seemed to have knocked down all the beautiful old bldgs in the past sometime during some well-meaning but thoughtless 1960s and 70s renovation. "

It is finally understood also by the natives and criticism has arisen against it. I thought to give you a link of series "Puretut talot", which listed and described the demolition cases, but unfortunately it is not available any more in the web, because Helsingin Sanomat plans to sell those stories as a book.

But here are something instead:
Helsinki Through the Lens: Photo gallery
http://www.helsinginsanomat.fi/english/extras/photogallery
and lots of interesting links to foreigners http://www.helsinginsanomat.fi/english/

E.g. this is nice :-)
http://www.helsinginsanomat.fi/english/article/1101979670025

And on Finnish side http://www2.helsinginsanomat.fi/extrat/kulttuuri/kuviahelsingista/kuvat.html you can see the buildings of Helsinki from years 1907-13
and here http://www2.helsinginsanomat.fi/extrat/kaupunki/panorama/Hki_panorama_intro.html from years 1866 and 2003

"For a country that prides itself on pristine nature, it does not treat landmark bldgs well. Not that NYC is any better, but Central Park is a gem."

You are absolutely right!
The most actual case here at the moment is Helsinki-Malmi airport, where the Finnish leaders do not understand that airport cannot be preserved without aerodrome and airplanes. see http://www.wmf.org/html/programs/finhel.html and http://pelastamalmi.org/en/index.html

Although land is much less valuable in Helsinki than in Manhattan, NYC, and although Malmi airport is only 123 hectares, but Central Park is over 400 (if I know correct)

Posted by: a Finn | May 26, 2005 06:03 PM

To 'a Finn':
Thank you very much for those links.

Posted by: Huckleberry Finn | May 26, 2005 06:18 PM

Eddie: I am an American living in California, and I can't see that you will be making much of a success out of yourself here with your whiny, cranky attitude and blaming everyone and everything but yourself for how little you like your life. How about you head on back to your native Mexico and have all the quality of life you want?

Posted by: Ann | May 26, 2005 06:37 PM

To all you people who are implying that we should stop having to learn Finnish-Swedish in Finland. Well that would extinguish the rights of the Finnish Swedish peole of getting around in our native language.

YOu seem to forget that we were always here, even before the Finnish language was here, you seem to forget when we fought for our independence, the swedish speakers paid with their blood side by side with tenh Dinnish speakers for a country where we could all be free and have the freedom to speak our mother tounges. Now you toggledites basically are saying you want to take away that right from us. THAT IS RACISIT AND AGAINST OUR HUMAN RIGHTS! THAT GOES AGAINST EVERYTHING THAT WE FINNS SUPPOSEDLY STAND FOR. It is not the 5-6% Swedish miinority that is oppressing the Finnish speakers, but apparently there are some Finnish speakers that feel it would be OK to oppress the Swedish speakers, evenb extinguish their native language from Finland. Thank God most Finns aren't like that!

And remeber, we who grew up as swedish speakers, we had to learn Finnish in School, which is much much harder than learning Sweish. So our burden of learning is harder. Remeber that in many of our towns and villages on the west coast, we do not learn Finnish until we take it in School. Finnish is really really difficult to learn!

Also, if Paasilinna was right, then it is actually more likely Finnish will die before Swedish. This is because much fewer people on this earth understand Finnish than Swedish. Also since Finnish is so hard to learn and not usefull anywhere else than in little Finland. Swedish on the other hand is usefull in all of the Nordic countries,a nd also much closer to languages such as English and German.

Oh... and bet you wouldn't have aired those anti-swedish language opinions if you would have had the opportunity to talk to someone like General Enerot...

Posted by: Finlandsvensk Finne | May 26, 2005 06:56 PM

Ah, change of subject:

How come no-one spoke yet about our SAUNA-BASTU culture? You know we all like to get together in small room naked to sweat profusely, beat eachother hard woth birch brances and then rush out an jump into the lake or ocean. And this is not a myth about us Finns, this is true.

Posted by: | May 26, 2005 07:07 PM

It seems that this is just getting more and more to be a fight between amricans and finnish people. I hope this could be just a impartial description of Finland, which could give something new for americans and also for finns..

Can we really make an agreement wether USA is better than Finland or Finland better than USA? Should we? no.
There's many and many great things in Finland. Also there are lots to be fixed in Finland.
What I've seen in the US, it's the same there, those things just might be different things..

Posted by: Sam | May 26, 2005 10:55 PM

Another liberal success story? It seems upon reading the blog that the Finns are evolving. Haven't had that sense about America for a few years. They have a sense of priorities and a respect and love for civil liberties that only gets lip service in the U.S. from our politicians. I look forward to a future visit!

Posted by: spy | May 27, 2005 01:09 AM

"YOu seem to forget that we were always here, even before the Finnish language was here"

It is widely proven that finnish language was the dominant language in scandinavia before the northern danish dialect evolved into swedish language. Not to speak the swedification of coastal finland in late 1700's.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/califate_750.jpg

http://pre20031103.stm.fi/suomi/tao/julkaisut/omakieli/image/kuva1.gif

"And remeber, we who grew up as swedish speakers, we had to learn Finnish in School, which is much much harder than learning Sweish"

Listen all of you again. 5% justifies force-swedish to 95% by this principle. In USA the same situation would be where every single american would have to learn 6 years of ebonics or spanish.

"Finnish Swedish peole of getting around in our native language"

This is not true. Several polls have shown that biligualism does not work and almost all swedish-speakers use finnish outside their homes, excluding some remote monolingual swedish towns.

"Finnish speakers that feel it would be OK to oppress the Swedish speakers"

In a situation where 5 million finns are forced to learn their language and massive quotas are reserved to universities for swedish speakers they dare to say that they are being oppressed! The most typical defense for quotas or force swedish is to use the race card, again.

By the way about 80% of so called swedes in finland are in fact swedified finns.

http://www.suomalaisuudenliitto.fi/aatelisnimet.htm

Posted by: Thomas | May 27, 2005 02:25 AM

Thanks for a very interesting article - Finns love to hear about how foreigners perceive them. Perhaps because it is so difficult for us to say good things about ourselves out loud.
However, what Pekka Himanen said about religion and prayer at school is not entirely true. Although Finland is a highly secularized society, we still have state church, meaning that church and state are not separated. Most Finns (I believe the number is somewhere around 80%) are Lutherans and religion (including some prayers) is taught at school. However, the number of people leaving the church is increasing and for those that are not members of a Christian church, the state must provide other classes in place of religion. For example, "view of life" (elämänkatsomustieto) classes that teach about all religions and ideologies, including socialism, capitalism, fascism etc. These classes are not denominational, and are meant for students that, in fact, have no religion. Although the church has an official position in Finland (and a right to collect tax from its members), religion is, as Himanen pointed out, not a visible or defining part of the Finnish society. Finns do not talk about their personal beliefs nor is religion used as a motive or basis of argument in public discussion.

I hope you'll enjoy the rest of your visit,

Posted by: Elina | May 27, 2005 03:15 AM

Finno-Ugrian peoples are natives of Northern-Europe included Scandinavia.

The fact that Germanic peoples have opressed them centuries does not justify further harrashment of Finno-Ugrian peoples in Finland,Sweden,Norway,Aland and Russia.

Read more for example:
http://www.ruijan-kaiku.no
or
http://www.rskl.se

All the Finno-Ugrian peoples of Europe have experience of living as a minority among the Indo-European majority. Europe was not Europe without the natives of Europe, the Non-Indo-European peoples of Europe.(Basques and Fenno-Ugrians)

Posted by: Freedom fighter | May 27, 2005 03:23 AM

Never mind Pauli, Jack Aking.

I know him. I think you know him as well. He's that loud bully that always sat in the back row of the class and made life miserable for everyone else who wanted to learn something.

Now he's unemployed or works as a prison ward. He has no woman, no life. He is bitter and blames everybody else. He has learnt some English surfing for porn on the internet (he does it a lot). He has plenty of spare time. With the help of a dictionary he can actually produce simple English text.

Don't fear. There is only one on average in each class. That means that one Finn in 25 is Pauli Ojanpera. I'm sure you have at least the same amount of Paulis in Texas (no offence!)

The vast majority of Finns are happy with the system. That's why the only debate that there is takes place on discussion forums like this.

Posted by: Juha Kontunen | May 27, 2005 03:26 AM

"The vast majority of Finns are happy with the system"

If this applies to the language system there are also polls. Here are two links. One tells (in finnish, sorry) opinions of 10 professors about the language political system.

http://www.jippii.fi/jsp/forum/thread.jsp?b=kielipolitiikka&t=30184

The other link tells about several polls of mandatory swedish education. 60%-70% oppose it at least for the last 10 years that these kind of polls have been made.

http://www.jippii.fi/jsp/forum/reply.jsp?b=kielipolitiikka&t=2463&m=5

Please note the fury in which the critics are being smeared even in this forum. It's only annoying on the net but devastating otherwise. Finland really needs some outside help because politicians are afraid to say anything for the above reason. Do something Washington Post.

Posted by: Thomas | May 27, 2005 03:44 AM

Thomas. You have a good dictionary.

There are polls and there are elections. Anyony can make an Internet poll in a suitable forum.

In elections people have only one vote, none more, none less. I wonder why democracy is based on elections and not internet polls?

Very impressing! 10 professors think like you. Then we must change the system at once!! I wonder why democracy is based on elections and not on the opinion of 10 selected professors? There must be a good reason. I just can't find out what. Can you?

Posted by: Juha Kontunen | May 27, 2005 03:55 AM

Explanation: LanguageWarrior fights for langugage freedom for Finnish people.

I heard that there cannot be any problem, if an ethnic majority is somehow oppressed. It is the case in Finland, where ALL higher-than-peon-level public servant positions are reserved for Swedish-speakers only. Because Finns do not speak Swedish at homes, they have to sacrifice 10 per cent of their learning capacity to get the Swedish exam approved.

Is it not so that in India, the highest caste had lowest number of members. Still they could oppress the low castes. Is it not true that in South-Africa, handful of powerful Whites could oppress masses of Blacks.

Thus, the Finnish case is similar to the most unacceptable ethnic oppression systems, and not comparable to some minority issues, e.g., in Germany or Switzerland.

The result is also the same: The Swedish-speakers in Finland can expext to live 6-9 years longer than the Finnish-speakers. Is it not the same in all caste systems?

What is the ideal way then:

1. Finland shall apply exactly the similar policy towards the Swedes as Sweden applies towards the Finns.
2. All Finns shall have the right to study OR not to study any foreign languages as they will.
3. The Nation will give support to foreign languages, e.g., Swedish etc., not more than according to the same way as Sweden supports Finnish. "Not more" is justified, because Sweden is a richer country.
4. English language shall be favored but not made compulsory. In practice, Finnish Radio/TV and other media shall begin to give full service in English, too.
5. Finland shall join or approach the English-speaking group of countries, because it is the best way to support our freedom and our economy, science and culture.

We also need some support from the English-speaking world. Why; because the parliamentarism does not work. We still are under a Soviet type of controlling. Polls show that people want the freedom, but still the politicians select racistic discrimination against the Finns. Not even explosions of mailboxes of Finns in Aland, have made any politician to say: Stop it. Instead, President Halonen recommends: "Finns, please do speak more Swedish; Swedes, please let Finns speak more Swedish with you."

With support, we can faster crash the Yoke of the Swedish High Caste from our shoulders.

Note: My goal is to give Swedes exactly the same level of language rights in Finland as they give rights to Finns in Sweden AND in Aland. Fair, uh?

Posted by: LanguageWarrior | May 27, 2005 03:56 AM

Just today it was in the news that famous finnish writer Arto Paasilinna will be translated to english by new publishing contracts. And it is just the same person that will take the swedish system to the internationa PEN-conference in june because modern Finnish media is unable to inform about the situtation. And at this very moment it is suggested that his books will be removed from swedishspeakers schools as a revenge.

Posted by: From Central Finland | May 27, 2005 04:03 AM

"Anyony can make an Internet poll in a suitable forum."

Did you even read the poll? It was made by the most respected opinion research authority in Finland called Taloustutkimus and there has been tens of similar polls.

Posted by: Thomas | May 27, 2005 04:08 AM

When you were in Kuopio did you taste a kalakukko. I think it´s awesome. Are you going to go Kuusamo, if you are you should walk a long Karhunkierros.

Ja hyvää jatkoo jos oma ei riitä...

Posted by: lentävä puliukko | May 27, 2005 04:13 AM

Huckleberry Finn wrote:

"Why do you Finns drink milk at lunch? Don't do that anymore! Milk is for chocolate cake and breakfast!!! :-)"

I know it sounds weird that we drink so much milk, but it's healthy, far healthier than soft drinks (or beer for that matter) and we're so accustomed to drinking cow milk as soon as we're alienated from breast milk that it's an obvious lunch drink for us. However, there's one drawback - lactose intolerance is becoming more common in Finland.

Posted by: Pete | May 27, 2005 04:39 AM

Concerning PISA-survey and "mono-culture."

There were minority schools in the random sample! They did worse results than other schools.

Therefore there are quotas for the Swedish minority at the higher education (university)level. In terms of PISA-survey they are still needed long time ahead.

As fas as I know there are quotas for the minorities in the States,too? So they have to be familiar for the Americans what it is all about.

Posted by: Pekka | May 27, 2005 04:52 AM

I think if you guys from the USA get totally baffled about this language issue, and why it is so hot; ask some Canadians about French and Quebec and then wait for the explosion.

Finland is not unique as a bilingual country and every such country has its hotheads on the issue.

Posted by: Hank W. | May 27, 2005 04:58 AM

There is no mandatory 3 to 6 years of french in ALL candadian schools.

Posted by: Gisella | May 27, 2005 05:08 AM

http://195.255.83.67/cgi-bin/mediaweb?Newsp=hbl&Date=020227&Depa=ledare&Story=05085232.txt&Model=juttu.html

Here is a study (in swedish) where the PISA-results of swedish speaking schools were gathered and compared with the general population. Result: The swedish speakers were one year behind in learning compared with finnish speakers.

Posted by: Help | May 27, 2005 05:21 AM

"There is no mandatory 3 to 6 years of french in ALL candadian schools."

Well that's a shame.

I loved Swedish at school. It was easy to learn and I'm happy to speak it with my Swedish friends. It's a lot easier to get friends from other countries if you know their language.

How many Americans (except the hispanics in the US) can go to Mexico and converse with the people there in their own language? I don't think that many can. I could do it, because I was born in Finland and took Spanish at school. For free.

Posted by: Noora Penttinen | May 27, 2005 05:27 AM

"And remeber, we who grew up as swedish speakers, we had to learn Finnish in School, which is much much harder than learning Sweish. So our burden of learning is harder. Remeber that in many of our towns and villages on the west coast, we do not learn Finnish until we take it in School. Finnish is really really difficult to learn!"

What? The whole 90% should learn because of your selfish ignorance. Gimme a break.

Posted by: John Mayor, Utah | May 27, 2005 05:37 AM

"It's a lot easier to get friends from other countries"

They know english in Sweden.

Do they know Swedish in Mexico? Why not choose spanish as the second language? Here in Finland we are constantly dealing with this legendary argument: Learn swedish so you can learn some other language. The average skill of swedish is horrific and that's the puropse because swedish is a requirement to higher offices.
And quess who gets the profit from this arrangement.

Posted by: Gisella | May 27, 2005 05:44 AM

This discussion is totally ridiculous.

Most of the Finns (and some others) here are arguing of so ridiculous things.

Shame you! We have a beautiful country with lovely people.

Posted by: AS | May 27, 2005 06:03 AM

"This discussion is totally ridiculous.
Most of the Finns (and some others) here are arguing of so ridiculous things."

Yes, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain, that obligatory swedish is senseless and oppressive against Finns.

Posted by: Wizard of Oz | May 27, 2005 06:18 AM

The situation in Canada is completely different. Canada has 24% French speakers.

In Finland only a miniscule 5%!!!! 5%!!!!!! Finland is one of the most, if not THE most, monolingual country in the world. Yet some swedification fanatics babble that because of this, Finland is "bilingual." They are not in sync with reality.

Posted by: Canada is not Finland | May 27, 2005 06:27 AM

The language question is a non issue in the way it has been presented here for one very simple reason. In Eduskunta (Finnish Parliament) Finnish speaking MP's have an absolute majority to decide on the matter among themselves. If they want, they can change the bilingual status of the country in practise overnight. This is not a question of the minority somehow oppressing the majority but the majority voluntarily making room for the minority.

In my opinion it is natural that the minority is seeking to protect their own interests but they do not call the shots in any way in this matter. Finnish speaking MP's do, and so far they have almost unanimously been in favour of maintaining the current state of affairs what comes to the status of national languages. In matter of fact in the course of the last decade, Eduskunta has not only approved a new language law but also approved legislation that has improved the status of Saami and Gipsy languages in Finland, not to speak of teching immigrant children their own mother tongue on top of Finnish or Swedish language arts at school.

Parliament elections are held every 4th year. Candidates are nominated by political parties. It is also possible to run as an independent candidate but chances of getting through are weak (some have made it, usually clebrities of some kind). Despite of the fact that parties make the nominations, personal votes determine the order in which candidates of some party are nominated as MP's. When voting, Finns thus vote both a party and an individual. Every Finnish citizen from 18 years up is entitled to vote. No registering to vote is required on before hand, just some kind of id to make sure that you cannot vote twice. When between 60 and 80 % of the population vote in every election, I leave it to the readers to determine how representative Eduskunta is.

Posted by: Jari Lievonen | May 27, 2005 06:43 AM

I must say that you Finns must consider yourself lucky, if the only things that can rise a such heated argument among you is one of language politics. Things must be fine over there indeed..compared to how they are here...

Posted by: Italian | May 27, 2005 06:44 AM

Apartheid in Finland is a non-issue because it is approved by the government.

After all, apartheid in South Africa was also a non-issue because it was approved by the South African government. If only it weren't for those meddling agitators, who resisted compulsory teaching of Afrikaans to native South Africans, and who resisted institutionalised discrimination. Why couldn't the human rights activists just leave it alone? What a little thing that is, language politics. South African blacks should have considered themselves lucky to be given the opportunity to learn Afrikaans!

Posted by: Make it go away, please! | May 27, 2005 07:02 AM

"favour of maintaining the current state of affairs what comes to the status of national languages"

That subject has never reached any voting. Thanks to the Swedish peoples party. And the race card is silencing opposition as in case of MP Elo/MP Gestring.

It is true that the parliament is unable to anything and the usual comment heard in finland is "shut up because parliament does not react". This is an attemp to suppress open discussion.

Posted by: Thomas | May 27, 2005 07:15 AM

"I leave it to the readers to determine how representative Eduskunta is."

Before the previous elections prime minister Paavo Lipponen put the leaders of all parties in a ring and made them promise to "develop swedishness". Yes there were elections and yes there were high turnover but...

Posted by: Thomas | May 27, 2005 07:26 AM

Alistair wrote:

"For example, regarding the death penalty, Himanen says, "Finland is strongly against death penalty, which is not part of our system." Yawohl, mein commandante! Would he mind citing a single public opinion poll to support this view? I've learned that in the case of many European countries that ban the death penalty, a majority of the population actually supports a death penalty. It's just one example of the huge gulf between the political elite and the average citizen that persists in most EU member-countries"

In a poll a few years back, 45% of the Finns suported the death penalty. That, I believe, is a bit higher number than the European avarage. The last execution in Finland (during peace time) took place in the early 19th century. So, in my opinion, one can argue that the death penalty is not part of the Finnish culture or tradition. The "gap (or gulf) theory" simply is not true.

Another quote by Alistair:

"This homogeneity is not only racial and ethnic, but philosophical and political as well. People not only look very similar, they think very similarly too. I'm generalizing, of course. But it's remarkable how hard it is to find a dissenting opinion from the status quo in Finland."

Quite a few comments here seem to agree on this, and so do I, but only to a degree. Especially Helsinki is rather "open" city, open to different cultures, life styles etc. To back me up on this I wished to refer to a study about this openness (and its effects on innovation, econimical growth, and what not) originally conducted by an American scholar. The surprising results indicated that Helsinki, along with Stockholm, were the most "open" cities in Europe, surpassing, if my memory serves me right, even all American cities. Unfortunately, I couldn't find the study.

As for the rest of Alistar's comments, well, I think, too, that it's important to understand the problems, as well ... but, honestly, the red tape is not a problem for new firms and, indeed, immigration is the only way straighten the skewed "age pyramid", as the age distribution is called here. So all well-educated Americans are more than welcomed, just keep your expectations on a realistic level.

Posted by: Tomi | May 27, 2005 07:48 AM

All you people in this blog are being ridiculous arguing about such nonsensical issues.
You must have something better to do?

Posted by: what's going on? | May 27, 2005 08:51 AM

My last post (about gender discrimination, human rights and political correctness) didn't seem to interest anyone, but I find the dominant discussion about ethnicity, language and nationalism worth exploration. There is more to this than the narrow Swedish-Finnish angle.

During my travels in Finland I have heard ethnic Finns complain about the Swedish elite. One perfectly normal and intelligent woman proudly volunteered that in a grocery store she had publicly dressed down a Swedish speaking woman conversing in her native tongue with her daughter. My acquaintance thought it irresponsible to mislead a child into going on and on with the doomed Swedish language. The woman and her daughter were complete strangers to my acquaintance.

Her behavior -- not normal -- could only be explained in terms of deep resentment, a resentment shared by others. I took it that she was expressing a collective sentiment, not strictly her "own" opinion.

Once, a well-educated intellectual Finnish speaking journalist explained to me that Swedes are prominent among Finland's socio-economic elite. His observation was wistful rather than angry.

Reading a short account of Finnish modern history -- for example: http://workmall.com/wfb2001/finland/finland_history_the_rise_of_finnish_nationalism.html --
one finds many Swedish last names among the leading intellectuals who built Finland's national identity: Henrik Gabriel Porthan, Johan Vilhelm Snellman, Elias Lönnrot and Johan Ludvig Runeberg are a few examples. One might argue that the Finnish national ethnic identity was given its political vitality by Swedish speakers.

Purely by chance, I once found myself in town outside of Helsinki. My Finnish friends had pulled over for some errand and I walked in a nearby church yard to kill the time. Looking at the war graves, row after row, I was surprised to find they were overwhelmingly (only) Swedish. All of them were men who fell defending Finland in the Second World War. Here was evidence of a contrast. Here was ethnic segregation in death for the national cause.

If one meets a Swedish-speaking Finn in Sweden, it is almost always evident that they remain Finnish in their national ethnic identity. Among Swedish intellectuals the Finnish-Swedish accent is considered charming (the Skåne accent that is akin to Danish has fewer fans). Swedish Swedes do not offer solace or encouragement to the Swedish speaking minority in Finland. They do not care about them. If Finland were to eliminate or downgrade Swedish as an official language, no major paper or electronic media in Sweden would contemplate fighting that decision. At best they would appeal to Brussels for justice.

Swedes do not wish to deal with the ethnic issues left over from their failure as a great power. During Tsarist times Swedish speakers were deported from Estonia to the Ukraine. Those people were persecuted during Soviet times, but still have not been allowed to emigrate to Sweden. Swedes, like Germans, believe in the blood tie of ethnicity, but it is politically incorrect to cultivate such feelings in Sweden.

If Swedish speaking Finns cannot look to Sweden for support on ethnic and linguistic grounds, there is still a more subtle relationship that gives Swedish speakers power. Swedish speaking Finns are at the forefront of what is politically trendy.

For example, Ulf Månsson, a champion of Swedish language rights in Finland, is also the chairman of Green Peace and a behind the scenes figure in Seta, the gay civil rights lobby group.

An intellectual historian might do a study of how ideas have filtered through the Swedish speaking intellectual elite. There is probably continuity worth analyzing.

Linguistic and ethnic identity are of course not not the product of intellectuals in isolation from society.

The Soviet Union stripped almost all the Finnish place names from the map in the Leningrad-Karelian region. The ethnic Finnish population was deported, imprisoned or executed.

Swedish intellectuals have only just discovered this dark history. It turned out that the few survivors of Stalinism that returned to Sweden, were persecuted by the Swedish Communist Party. No one in Sweden wrote about this until recently. In Finland, the subject was of course forbidden according to the unwritten rules of Finlandization.

When Finnish intellectuals could not bring up the issue of Stalinism with Russian (Soviet) people, ordinary Finnish vodka tourists took up the task. These, mostly Finnish-speaking Finns, used to get on buses to spend weekends and holidays in squalid Soviet hotels. Their personal goal was to get drunk cheap. Prostitutes and black marketeers flocked round them.

An entire subculture of prostitutes and petty criminals became fluent in Finnish. These people were happy and sad together in the way that people appear in the painting of Hieronymus Bosch and Pieter Bruegel.

But among all the small business deals and drunken fornication, there was an underlying theme of revenge. The Finns were exerting their power over stolen lands and reimposing the Finnish language. The Soviet Union forced Finland to pay war reparations and Finns -- some alcoholics without any social status at home -- enjoyed reversing roles.

The Soviets/Russians and Finns playing this game would not hesitate to say that they held each other in utter contempt, but the buses kept rolling. Maybe this subculture has disappeared since the risk of violent robbery has risen in Russia.

(I read in Helsingin Sanomat that more Finns are studying Russian today in Eastern Finland, where Russian migrants are settling. I haven't had a chance to visit that region for several years. It would be interesting if the Post reporters can get some picture of life there.)

One point that Russians invariably made about Finland and its post-War economic success, was that the Soviet Union had financed Finland with cheap raw materials and other special deals. No Russian would ever admit that Finns worked hard to build their country. Social order and a functioning bureaucracy are two things lacking in Russia. Some Russian nationalists like the idea that Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim was a ethnic Swede Tsarist subject trained in the service of the Russian empire. Though it may sound like pure casuistry to a Western European or North American, a Russian might draw all sorts of strange conclusions from this fact (you only have to consider Putin's willingness to praise Stalin to understand how dangerous this type of thinking is).

The once beautiful city of Viborg/Viipuri, with the Alvar Aalto library, is a depressing sight. Ordinary Russians in the region don't like to think of the city as a Finnish achievement. They emphasize the city's Swedish links. If Russia were willing to create special economic zones in the Karelian - St Petersburg area, they would want Japanese or American capital and (social order). They would be less willing to have Swedish managers. But like Poles in former German territories, the Russians in the region would fear the spread of language, culture and money of the former inhabitants.

One of the interesting surprises for Finns as the Soviet Union began to open up was the ability of Estonians to understand Finnish. It turned out that Finnish television was watched in secret by Estonians on the northern coast. They even learned about American popular culture from Yle. Although Estonians and Finns are closely related ethnic groups, it is not an unfair generalization to say that Estonians do not think that either Finns or Swedes took many risks to support Estonian independence from the USSR.

In all that I have described above there is a concentration on conflict and contradiction. Reality in the ethnic, linguistic and political map of Finland and its close neighbors is surely a richer subject than I could do justice to. Hope the Post's reporters can teach us something more.

As far as the future of the Swedish language in Finland goes, I suspect demography will play a deciding role. If ethnic Swedes have children with Finnish speakers, in the long fun fewer and fewer will pass Swedish on as a primary language. Perhaps with EU funding, unemployed Swedes could be transferred in large numbers to settle in Finland. If there were enough of them, they might to revitalize the need for Swedish in public life.

p.s. I am still interested to know what people in Finland think about the two Rogers boys being illegally locked up in a mental institution while the Supreme Court acted to quash the Kuopio Appeals Court decision.

Also, Finns are very proud of the low level of corruption in Finland. Do the Alko buyers who responsible for contracts worth tens of millions of euro every year take bribes and kickbacks from the wine and spirit sellers? (The Swedish company Systembolaget is apparently rotten through and through).

Posted by: foreign journalist | May 27, 2005 09:01 AM

Thomas,

Lipponen also wanted to take us to Nato, support US war effort in Iraq more actively than what we do today, hold high profile in the EU etc. In all these minor issues he was defeated in the government and in the Parliament. And you tell me that all political parties did what he wanted regarding Swedish language also after the election where he lost his post? Come on!

Posted by: Jari Lievonen | May 27, 2005 09:24 AM

The blog seems to have become the playing-ground of a group of people who use every possibility to vent their frustration and anger. Towards what? -dunno actually. (The Finnish Ministry of Justice had to shut down their chat page because of the few language-extremists last year.)
Finland may well be one of the world's most monocultural societies, but the picture one gets from here is almost unrecognizable for me as a native Finn. Too bad.
Like some people have stated, it would be great to hear more comments about Robert&Lucian's 'field trip' from especially American readers. Not from fanatic Finns. Thank you!

Posted by: No comments | May 27, 2005 09:36 AM

This is the bottom line:

When our forefathers founght for an independent nation and for our Freedom, both Swedish speaking Finns and Finnish speaking Finns fought and died like brothers side by side.

They all had a common dream; a country where you could be free to speak your own language, whether it be the the Sweish spoke on the plain of Ostrobotnia or the Finnish spoken in Oulu, a country where there would be a better tomorrow for all of us.

It is a disgrace that some Finns of today do not recognize the rights that were earned in the trenches by everyone by all Finns.

Complaining that one "has to learn" another language (or any subject for that matter, be it mathematics, biology, music... ) is an indication that a person is unappreciative and spoiled rotten, taking education for granted and having lost sight of the value of it.

I pity those who make it their cause and mission to fight for less understanding and eduction.There ecrtainly are better causes to fight for. I pity them for having lost their bond to history and their national heritage.

To put it in a very un-PC, brutally honest way (as is the Ginnish tradition to call it like you see it, to say it like it is): these people ARE uneducated, narrow minded loosers. The more the whine about having to learn, the more they prove this point.

Our history made us a bilingual country.

My surname is Finnish, I think in Swedish, but I am fluent in both languages.

I am proud of being bilingual.

The "Finnish speaker" in me is proud of being part of a nation that is tolerant and accepting to minorities in general.

Posted by: Proud Finn | May 27, 2005 09:45 AM

Foreign journalist: Elias Lönnrot was Finnish-speaking, and Snellman was the first person in Finland who fought himself a right to do his masters thesis in Finnish. Mannerheim´s family roots are in the Netherlands, not Sweden.

I may be naive, but I actually believe that those Alko byers are clean.

Posted by: E | May 27, 2005 09:51 AM

Dear Foreign Journalist: Are you really buying into this Finnish/Swedish conflict nonsense? There are fanatics on both language groups but there's nothing threatening the Swedish speaking people's rights. But I don't support mandatory Swedish at schools - or Finnish - kids should have their right which language to study when they want. And I have not in my years seen any evidence of general dislike of Swedish speakers. That's just ridiculous. Also, Swedish name does not make you Swedish speaking. Many Finns got their last name from the Swedish military recruiters.

Rogers boys issue is old news. It was a tragedy that was handled badly. However, there are many who take comfort in knowing their government is willing to make sure Finnish children get a fair chance, even inspite what international treaties say. About that mental institution, where should they have had those boys for safekeeping? In a hotel where journalists could have harrashed them easier?

Posted by: Timo A | May 27, 2005 10:41 AM

Why did Finland adopt the Euro so quickly? Did Sweden finally adopt it? Was that put to a popular vote, or did your politicians just do it on their own?

Just curious. Any comments? Are/were you happy with that decision?

I admire Britain in a way for staving it off; Sweden too.

Posted by: | May 27, 2005 10:42 AM

Why did Finland adopt the Euro so quickly? Did Sweden finally adopt it? Was that put to a popular vote, or did your politicians just do it on their own?

Just curious. Any comments? Are/were you happy with that decision?

I admire Britain in a way for staving it off; Sweden too.

Posted by: Huckleberry Finn | May 27, 2005 10:43 AM

Foreign journalist,
Those boys should have been delivered to the USA. Perhaps the usual bias in parenthood questions towards women was at work in there.

The Supreme Court makes strange decisions quite often. Anybody remember the shady and probaply illegal summer cottage deals of that female supreme court judge, whose name I don't remember, Vuori or something?

Now, if we talk about inequalities in finnish society, this language debate is meaningless. The only real priviledged group that comes in to mind are the Jehovas Witnesses! They don't need to go in to army at all, while everyone else does do the armed service or the civil service. Why on earth?

Posted by: | May 27, 2005 10:44 AM

"Why did Finland adopt the Euro so quickly? Did Sweden finally adopt it?" Why not? I don´t see what good it would have done to keep markka. Just sentimental value but sentiments should be put aside when it comes to economics.

Sweden had a referendum last fall (or was it already the fall before that? time flies) and the no-camp won.

Posted by: E | May 27, 2005 10:49 AM

>>Why not? I don´t see what good it would have done to keep markka. Just sentimental value but sentiments should be put aside when it comes to economics.

I don't know. In light of the language debates I just thought there might have been more resentment about moving away from a Finnish standard. After all, there seems to be a strong Finnish/Swedish language debate.

Posted by: | May 27, 2005 10:55 AM

As you may be aware of - Finland is know as Juridical Nation; last three presidents have been taking care of this socialist interpretation.

During this time quite a few Finnish millionaires have lost their property to our government officials' deliberate mistakes. Our law do not protect anyone in practice.

Our people are least corrupted, but non one told you, that they are the biggest bribers in major industries. Which is more severe crime?

During last few years monopolies have been found in most business areas, which xplains, why we have so few foreign businessmen in certain business areas.

Our Labour Union Bosses use Russia prostitutes. Helsinki Russia Commercial Embassy hired Diplomat apartamentos to hundreads of prostitutes.

The list is endless. I suggest people to Google enough to get the true picture of Finland in stead of only reading beautiful stories of some excotic nation at north.

Emigrant are drugged with neurodrugs, and flewn back to their origins, and you tell me this is a homogenoius nation?

We have been having the same minister, who are being recycled around the ministries - if someone if a nazi, then there is no easy way to get rid of it. They just chaign location to some other ministry.

Posted by: Miguel Perez Elporo | May 27, 2005 11:03 AM

As you may be aware of - Finland is know as Juridical Nation; last three presidents have been taking care of this socialist interpretation.

During this time quite a few Finnish millionaires have lost their property to our government officials' deliberate mistakes. Our law do not protect anyone in practice.

Our people are least corrupted, but non one told you, that they are the biggest bribers in major industries. Which is more severe crime?

During last few years monopolies have been found in most business areas, which xplains, why we have so few foreign businessmen in certain business areas.

Our Labour Union Bosses use Russia prostitutes. Helsinki Russia Commercial Embassy hired Diplomat apartamentos to hundreads of prostitutes.

The list is endless. I suggest people to Google enough to get the true picture of Finland in stead of only reading beautiful stories of some excotic nation at north.

Emigrant are drugged with neurodrugs, and flewn back to their origins, and you tell me this is a homogenoius nation?

Posted by: Miguel Perez Elporo | May 27, 2005 11:05 AM

There seems to be a fairly small group who turns up wherever anyone ends up discussing Finland on the internet and start this kind of language "debate" we've had to witness here. It happens on a regular basis on Finnish sites and elsewhere.

They use invented "facts", misquotations and statistics taken out of context to "make a point". As has been pointed out earlier, their poison doesn't reflect reality at all. Anyone who actually believes anything said will have a completely inaccurate picture of the country.

These trolls existence is an embarrassment to us all, however as anyone can apparently post here, there seems to be no moderator, they must be endured, and should of course be ignored.

I don't know if their existence is exclusive to Finland, or if other countries are similarly afflicted. They certainly show us that not all Finns are well educated enough, and secure enough in themselves. Sad poor souls who really should be pitied.

Posted by: Voice of Reason | May 27, 2005 11:23 AM

Why was Finland so quick to pay reparations to Soviet Union after WWII? Are you man or mouse nation? You should have told Stalin to go f himself.

Least corruption, yes. But the flip side of that coin is lack of self-respect and pride.

Posted by: tweak | May 27, 2005 11:43 AM

Matt- Thanks:) i've noticed at least in the area that i live in or with the people that i'm with, if somebody mentions either Britain or Australia everybody starts to make very stupid jokes and laugh about the way how they speak English as if the American way would be the only right way. Honestly i've noticed that some people here don't even realize that they really don't have their own language but that they borrowed this language from British.
But back to Finland... especially Americans who don't know anything about Finland and when you tell them that your a Finn they start to tell all these things about "Finns" that are actually about Russians, Swedish, German or some other Europeans, but they don't see any difference. They think that Europe is like America just one country with several states and lot of people here even thinks that English is a official language in all over Europe. If you tell them that actually we all have our own languages they still think that we use english more than our own languages, funny thing ha. Well anyway i've heard many of my American friends saying that they are stupid nation and they are proud to be stupid. We were actually just discussin about the things that Americans do well with few of my friends and one of them just said that only thing that they do well here is capitalism/materialism and because of that they are getting into big problems soon.
Yeah well i was suppouse to say something about Finland here rather than America.
About the teaching of religion in schools, like mentioned here before it's a bit different in every school and also depends on teacher. I know that it's long time since i was even in high school, but i know that the teaching is different also between countryside and cities. In countryside teaching of religion is more based on Christianity and the schools teach Lutheran way because that's where most of the Finns belong. I know the same happens also in cities but not as strongly as in countryside. You are offered different studies if you don't belong to lutheran church, for example if you belong to babtist, methodist, pentecostal etc... church you will be offered change to study your own worldview or just total release from religion studies.
i think it's enough for now. correct me if you think i'm wrong.

Posted by: Eevis | May 27, 2005 12:03 PM

tweak, are you American?!
I mean Finland as a nation is very small and as Finns we are proud that we paid the reparations that fast because when they were paid it was easier to built our good economy. and other thing do you really think that Sovjet union would have waited to get what they thought belong to them, they would have just come and take if we wouldn't have given it. I think paying those reparations so fast was one way to make sure that sovjet union won't start an other war against us.
It's good for you to say all that if you are American, since you are so much bigger nation but compare Finland and Russia!!

Posted by: | May 27, 2005 12:12 PM

Goatse rulez internet!

Posted by: finet.binaries.keskustelu | May 27, 2005 12:32 PM

"In Porvoo there is a school called Lyseonpuiston koulu where it is forbidden to speak a word
of finnish language. Any pupil caught in doing this will be threatened to be thrown out of the school."

I am from Porvoo and have heard and read about this in the local newspapers. However, the school rule is not as serious as it sounds. Breakage certainly doesn't lead to being thrown out of school.

Some teachers didn't think it was proper to speak Finnish all the time at a Swedish school. Why, I have no idea.

Also they denied the use of too short miniskirts on young girls. I think this whole issue is an exaggeration by some old hags. The school is for 12-15 year olds btw.

Porvoo is a beautiful small town to live and study and 99,9999% of its people are much more open minded. The above rules are stupid and everyone in Finland agrees they are stupid.

You should read the laws of US states... some funny and silly laws you got there among the proper ones! :)

Posted by: Maaria | May 27, 2005 12:37 PM

Let's be honest, you paid the USSR for the trouble of attempting to invade you, causing havoc around the Ladoga area, and taking Karelia. That is nothing to be proud of. You can be proud that you fought them to a standstill on the Eastern border, that is true. That is actually quite remarkable; I admire that greatly.
Perhaps there was no other choice, but I am tired of hearing people down America because of its power and might. Nothing to be ashamed of.

I have the same criticism of my own country for signing the pact at Yalta. Total appeasement - and who cares about Poland, right?

Posted by: tweak | May 27, 2005 12:48 PM

"It is very hard to understand that somebody has a problem with the fact that he's offered free language training."

Wise man once said that there's no such thing as a free lunch.

Posted by: Pauli Ojanperä | May 27, 2005 12:59 PM

And a what real generous offer mandatory Swedish is! You can't say no to it! Really.

Btw. to set the record straight, Pauli is a man, who's seen too much, but who still believes there's a lot to look and live for.

Posted by: Pauli Ojanperä | May 27, 2005 01:16 PM

"You also brought up the gender equality. My personal opinion of the gender equality in general is that there can be no quick improvement in this matter anywhere either. Why? Because this a general human problem where stronger individuals or stronger nations or stronger anything usually wants to rule the weaker ones. Most likely things will change in the course of time but it requires that the attitudes so deeply rooted in people's (men?) minds change."

I agree with everything you said in this quote, except the last sentence. I doubt that absolute gender equality will ever be a reality anywhere, for the reason you gave: that it is an issue of human nature, not culture or economics or society.

Posted by: Caroline | May 27, 2005 01:45 PM

tweak, the small difference is that while the Finns had a gun pointed at their head while the agreed to pay for the havoc they had caused in WWII, the US was drinking coffee eating pulla with Stalin while they chickened out at Yalta. Let's just hope the US pays THEIR actual debt, I read somewhere that to do that they should clone all the fish in the sea six times and then sell them all for 1 dollar.

Posted by: janne | May 27, 2005 02:01 PM

Mr. Pauli Ojanpera? Who was that wise man who have said that?

Posted by: William | May 27, 2005 02:02 PM

Jack Aking wrote:

"It is very hard to understand that somebody has a problem with the fact that he's offered free language training."

Imagine that every morning, except on saturdays and sundays, someone forcefully feeds you a dry doughnut. One morning you cry out: "Why are you doing this? Your doughnuts make me feel sick! I don't need them or want them. You are psychopatic bastards!"

But they will answer: "You are such an ungrateful person. Every morning we offer you a doughnut, and it is COMPLETELY FREE for you. You don't have to pay anything for it. But you only complain bitterly. Shame on you!"

Posted by: Nikolas Ojala | May 27, 2005 02:10 PM

The director of Sweden's Intergration Office (Integrationsverket) slipped last week in a public internet chat session that "our largest minority group are the Finland-Swedes (Finlandssvenska)". My Swedish speaking Finn friends, living in Finland, were very suprised to learn they actually were a member of a minority in Sweden.

Nor are minorities much respected in Sweden anymore, the country that once welcomed immigrants from all around the world to join its happy family - as long as you are willing to become a proper Swede.

Sweden has three official minority languages, Finnish, Sami and the Gypsy language. Half a million Finns in Sweden only can use their native language in a couple of communities far north in the outskirts of civilization, Lapland. "Why should we arrange them services in Finnish when they all can speak Swedish" is the goverment's opinion.

Posted by: ... meanwhile, in Sweden... | May 27, 2005 02:29 PM

"It is very hard to understand that somebody has a problem with the fact that he's offered free language training."

The problem is not with language training. The problem is that people would like to study a more useful language instead. Kids already study at least three foreign languages at school, and Swdish takes a place from some other language that would be useful later in life.

Posted by: | May 27, 2005 02:36 PM

"Foreign jurnalist" thanks for your post. Some comments:

To make one thing clear, the Swedish speaking part of the population, the elite you call, is not by race Swedish, except perhaps an uttermost insignificant small portion.

Lets go litter further back:

The Finns have lived in this country from at least year 1000 B.C. The era between circa. 1000-500 B.C. is called the age of "varhaiskantasuomi". At that time the Saami language, then used by the Laplanders was considered as one of the dialects of the language used at that time. The dialects then separated no later than 0 A.C.

Besides the small amount of Swedes living here back in the history, there has always been traders from German and other countries near by. Thus also many German and other non-Finnish-non-Swedish surnames, specially on the south and west coasts.

An example from a slightly different angle:

On my fathers side we have original last names like Thule, Lindqvist, Snellman, Meurman to name some. There is a thorough genealogy done by our family society by the Meurmans. For instance, some but perhaps not all of the men from the Thule branch changed their name into a Finnish surname Tulenheimo. They originate far back from Sweden, a couple or more hundred years if my memory serves when they came here to establish a church organ factory.

Many of the Snellman (there you go) men changed their name into Virkkunen. Some of the Meurman branch men changed their name to Liuksiala. My grandfather also took a Finnish name Apajalahti. On my mothers side we are Hugenots (Gruno->Grunau) escaped from France to Preussia, a wealthy family at that time who then moved to Russia from Preussia to establish a factory. In the beginning of the Revolution my grandmother barely managed to escape to Finland. Many of the descendants now have a Finnish name.

What I want to point out with this example is that there has been no efforts in general amongst the minorities to marry within the family to maintain a Swedish speaking or a German speaking elite. People with non-Finnish last names have totally intermixed during the hundreds of years of history. You could hear thousands of similar stories like mine.

So the conclusion is that there is no Swedish elite by blood, the Swedish language is all what has remained excluding the obligatory exceptions of course. A Swedish or any other non-Finnish name really doesn't mean anything.

If we think back in the history it is quite possible that many of the educated Finnish men took a foreign (Swedish) name to be able to deal with the Kings court. We all know how tough those Finnish names can be. I would be really surprised if the American readers didn't understand all of this quite well because the are descendants of immigrants.

About Porthan, what language is his name btw? He was the father of the history writing of the Finland. Or Michael Agricola, sounds Latin to me but he was born in Pernaja and translated the first New Testament into Finnish.

I sincerely hope that people without proper factual information stop writing about this subject if they have not double checked their information.

Thank You,
Risto Apajalahti
Espoo

Posted by: Risto Apajalahti | May 27, 2005 03:05 PM

Wow - a respected international newspaper does a series of stories on Finland and reading the comments is like being in a toilet, with xenophobic graffiti all over.

Like most smart Finns, I had no issue with my Swedish lessons. I had more of an issue with Finnish and chemistry (boring and hard). I speak six languages and was never afraid that learning Swedish was going to take up too much of my brain capacity, as I felt there was plenty to spare :)

But if you have a very small brain, I guess you gotta be protective of it.

Posted by: Juha-Pekka | May 27, 2005 03:40 PM

Dear Proud Finn

So, your surname is Finnish and you think in Swedish. How come you write like an american?

"When our forefathers founght for an independent nation and for our Freedom..."

You should write for the Bush administration, cos you got real talent.

I would like for my child to have the opportunity to chooce which lanquage to concentrate besides English, with out becoming a b-grade citizen. How does this make me a person who wants "to fight for less understanding and eduction"?

You like to lecture about history (???) and call people names. You seem to have atleast as much hate in you as this Pauli-charecter. It's funny how you and the likes of you always find these bigots like him, so you can ignore the silent majority of moderates who question the current system.

So I ask of you as a fellow Finn, do I have the right to present my oppinion with out being called "uneducated, narrow minded looser"?

Like you I'm tolerant and accepting to minorities in general, but I support the same model that Sweden uses in it's schools - the model of common sense. Does that make me a racist? Are Swedes racist?

Finlandsswedes have made a huge contribution to the creation of Finland, but they are also a small minority. Histoy by it self is not a good argument.

I'm quessing you will just ignore me. A reply would be a positive surprise though.

Tata, H

Posted by: Hannes Vauhkonen | May 27, 2005 03:46 PM

maybe he writes like a Brit?! or like an Australian..

Posted by: OK | May 27, 2005 03:52 PM

Well!

Seems we really can't have major issues here in the country of midnight sun, cellphone-for-everyone-from-craddle-to-grave, if majority of bandwidth on this forum is used for discussing ever-so-important issue of learning another language.

Personally, I've been told by a friend living in Aland that my school-imposed swedish gets better after 1/4 bottle of single malt, and is fluent for awhile after that, then it gets worse...

Har det bra!

Posted by: Moderately Happy Finn | May 27, 2005 04:22 PM

Tweak; we told Unca Stalin to go F* himself twice; and only after Roosevelt sold Finland on a platter to the USSR and finished off Unca Adi who actually had helped us against Unca Stalin we ended up having to pay up. See Unca Stalin had a hugh jazz military base within small artillery range next door to Helsinki http://www.porkkala.net/
so it kinda made the paying up a necessity when the bailiff is living next door.

Unless of course you are referring to the World War I debt Finland paid off to the USA but thats confusing two things.

Posted by: Hank W. | May 27, 2005 04:51 PM

PS. For those interested in the proto-Finnic (varhaiskantasuomi) stuff google will give some hits and you may find names for books.

For details see:
L. Posti. 1953-54. "From Pre-Finnic to Late Proto-Finnic". Finnisch-ugrische Forschungen 31, 1953-4: 191.
L. Vaba. 1997. *Uurimusi lätieesti keelesuhetest. Tallinn-Tampere.
L. Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1993. *The History and Geography of Human Genes*. Princeton University Press.
K. Wiik. 2002. *Eurooppalaisten juuret*. Atena Kustannus Oy. Jyväskylä, particularly ppg. 245-269.

Posted by: Risto Apajalahti | May 27, 2005 05:10 PM

No we do *not* all drink milk! I don't know a single person who'd do that. Milk is for coffee. Otherwise... ewww.

Sorry to see a nice blog has pretty much been brought down by a handful of bigots and trolls.

Posted by: Ääliöt | May 27, 2005 05:33 PM

PPS. A Google link to a summary by Eugene Holman about the early history of Scandinavia:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.nordic/msg/fb94c63ee40dffbb

Posted by: Risto Apajalahti | May 27, 2005 06:05 PM

What's really nice about this debate is that it shows we Finns are almost ready to adopt English as their third official language. As anyone sees, even the uneducated bigots can get their message across in an international language. If Finland could pull this off, we could then present it as a solution to other language wars: English as a go-between language could even save lives.

Posted by: Matti | May 27, 2005 06:34 PM

Heippa Hannes Vauhkonen,

Actually, it is clear that our opinion on the language question differs,I'll leave it at that. That's OK. At least you don't come across as someone out on a mission to deny os Finnish swedes our language. My last post might not have been that sensitive, but it is my honest opinion that ppl like Mr. Ojanpera are fundantal troggledites. So there... an honest opinion. Go on, Bite me ;)

Mainly I want to thank you for your comment that I write like an American. I take it as a compliment. English is my 3rd language (Finnish and Swedish being 1 and 2, in no particular order). Maybe my language skills have been honed by the fact that I have been married to a US citizen for the last 13 years, I have lived and worked abroad for the last 10 years. But, no I am not an American, but very much still a Finnish citizen.

The reason I have been able to work and live abroad, have made a good living, and am a very happy person, I credit to my bilingual upbringing and my willingness to learn languages and adapt to new situations rather han trying to fight them. To me, any opportunity to learn is welcome! I speak 8 languages by the way.

OK, now I guess you think I'm bragging, and in Finland that is forbidden according to the "Law of Jante"! Well, one thing I have learnt during my years in America is that it is OK to say "I'm doing well, you're doing well!". There is a saying "it ain bragging if you've done it!". Also, it's ok to take a compliment and say "Thank You!" rather than "...uhum, no it's really nothing..what, this old thing..." This is something we Finns definetly can learn from the Americans!

Of course in Finnish there is that saying that "no one will lift the cat's tail, unless the cat lifts it herself". Hope we could live by that a bit. On the other hand, it can of course be argued that the Finnish relucatnce of "bragging" MIGHT be a spur to always trying to do better. Not sure... interested in your opinion on this.

Also, you wrote "You should write for the Bush administration, cos you got real talent". This made me laugh out loud, and I had to show it to all my co-workers, who all got a good chuckle out of it. Thanks for the comment on talent, I hope you're right there! However, you could probably not find another person more opposed to the policies of the Bush Administration. I don't think Bush would hire me for any writing assignements :)

I am sure we both agree that we are grateful for the hardship our forefathers ( meaning our grandparents and great grandparents) went thru. I don't want to say "we", because "we" were never out there in the trenches, and let's give credit where credit is due. My grandmom and great grandmom worked in "motti" chopping down the forest, while the men were out on the "rintama" fighting off the "ryssa" (sorry no dots on my keyboard). Just wonder if we today would have such guts and determination (Sisu). I hope so, but likely we'll never know.

I am wishing you a great Memorial Day weekend, I for one will be rembering both my my Ukki and Faffa and my Mommo and isoaiti this coming monday!

All the best.

Posted by: Proud Finn | May 27, 2005 06:52 PM

Moving away from language debate,
some suggestions for topics to debate:

MOOSE - We Finns always tell foreigners about reindeer. Reindeer are kept in lApland and are being herded. Reindeer is exotic to most Fins and we seldom eat reindeer meat unless we happen to live in the North. The animal of consequence is the MOOSE. Moose get far too little attention in conversations with Foreigners. We have plenty of them (moose, not foreigners). They cause lot's of traffic accidents. They are hunted in the fall by organized hunting teams.The meat is excellent and healthy. Moose are just in the shadow of reindeer, due to Father Christmas preference for reindeer.

SALMON - When Finns (and other Nordic folks) have visitors from forign lands, we tend to think we shuld feed them Salmon. Some business accquinaces of mone have testified that all they got to eat during weeklong trips in Finland and Sweden has been Salmon, and they have wondered how we can put up with eating so much of it. Actually, many a Finn really do not prefer Salmon at all but rather eat "siika" ("white fish") another large wild fish. It is unclear why Salmon is fed to tourists. Maybe someone can enlighten us on this.

COWS - We have many but they are smaller than those typically encountered in the states. Milk from Finnish cows make the worlds best Ice Cream. I am not sure if Finns realize that Finnish Ice Cream is so great. It is superb!

PIGS - "Possut","Grisar", the type that has been rolled in sugar and contain apple or raspberry jam, that is. They are a national treasure! These sweet delicacies are one major reason for me to give up trips to tropical islands and lively metropolies in lieu of Finland each year!

MUSHROOMS - Forget about the "champion" mushrooms, portabello and shitake. Indulge in chantrells, "ear mushrooms" and Karl Johan Sopp (herkku tatti), cooked in heavy cream. Just don't try my mom's "mushroom surprise", because she picks every shroom in the forest, and then tries to determine the edibility from an illustrated book from 1957.

BERRIES - You pick them yourself for food and exercise.

Start with lingonberries. Picking lingonberries is a harmless experience. They are easy and fast to pick and your feet will stay dry. The most traumatic thing that might happen is that you run into a moose. The moose will probably stare at you with a sheepish look, but most likely it won't attack. Linonberries can be found where tall pinetrees grow.

Blueberries are a bit harder. YOur feet will get a bit more wet when picking these, You will also need to cover yourself as you will be attached with thick swarms of bloodsucking killer mosquitoes. The good thing is that they do not carry malaria. You will find out what the bad thing is yourself. Never mind the bugspray, these bugs will laugh at you, you need a thick physical barrier. Picking blueberries is slower than picking lingonberries. The law of Hardship states that Blueberries taste better than lingonberries as they are harder to pick.

Cranberries. Like large sour lingonberries. To find them you must venture into swamps. Don't risk your life for these berries, because they aren't worth drowning for. Or go with a local.

Buckthorn berries. Only found on islands. Practically impossible to pick and the squish in your hands,. You must use a special pressind contraption and use great care not to crush the plants. They make a sour juice that is made into a desert soup,which is good for you. Each berry is said to contain more vitamin C thank an orange, but that might just be what our mom's tell us.

Cloudberries.The Cloudberry is the King of Finnish Berries. They taste like heavenly nuggets. The Law of Hardship states that these are the hardest ones to pick.YOu do need to venture out into the swamps to find them. Contrary to the Cranberry, there ARE worth risking your life for. Unfortunately getting sucked into the dark depths of the swamps is not the only dager you must brave to get by these berries. You also have to be careful not to be detected by protective locals who are trying to keep "their" secret cloudberryspots still secret. If you donot feel like risking your life, you can purchase the liquid form of the cloudberry in the local ALKO.

Posted by: Proud Forest Troll | May 27, 2005 10:29 PM

Wow! :) Many interesting people have found this board, who say they speak up to 8 languages! That's very impressive. So it's surprising that these same self-proclaimed language geniuses don't seem to be able to argue their way out of a paper bag.

But seriously, the editors and American readers must be wondering, with a highly monolongually Finnish country, what is it that keeps the compulsory swedish-language learning requirement going?

The answer is that there are humongous amounts of money earmarked for this by Swedish "culture funds." These culture funds get most of their money from Sweden. The money is used to give cash awards to anyone in Finland who, for example, writes a magazine article supporting compulsory Swedish, demands that Swedish street signs are erected, works to require a Finnish community to establish an exclusively Swedish-speaking school; anything which makes Finland more Swedish.

Finns don't have cultural funding that is anything near the scale of the Swedish funds.

Finnish taxpayers are forced to pay for the new Swedish-language schools, even though Swedes in general control most of the wealth in Finland, and there are literally only a few students in the schools. In Jyväskylä for example, where there are about 2,000 high school students, a few Swedish parents demanded that the city council start a new Swedish-language language school. In their demand they claimed that the school was needed by 42 Swedish students. The foolish city council started the school, and the school is now attended by 3 (three) students. Then, one of the parents was given an award by the Swedish culture fund. That's how it works.

Another fact is, some Swedish schools in Finland have decided to drop Finnish language as a requirement for their students. Yet the Swedish People's party, and other pro-Swedish organizations in Finland are intolerant of Finnish families enjoying the same freedom from compulsory Swedish.

Posted by: Flashlight | May 27, 2005 11:50 PM

Dearest Hannes Vauhkonen,

You're calling me a bigot. Please show me, which opinion along the following lines is bigotry.

---8 Something is terribly wrong with Finnish school system. To graduate and to have a government occupation, everybody here is obliged to study an unimportant five percent minority's language namely Swedish. Compulsory Swedish studies is a tool in the hands of an elité clique of Swedish speaking Finns, which they use to further their deeds and mutilate Finnish children's lingual and cultural identities.

Please consider my point.

At Wikipedia you can read more about the åpårtheidic situation in Finland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Swedish

I want to share with you a not too well translated quote from a famous Finnish writer, Arto Paasilinna:

"Native Finnish speakers are just pissed they were required to learn Swedish in order to graduate."

"The recent legislation that abandoned this requirement will help to damper future generations' Finnish-Swedish debates."

Nope. You're right that some progress has happened, but at the same time they've tightened the screw at the other end.

"At times, the Finnish-Swedish rivalry might seem intense, but not really - in the end they're all Finns."

Not really. You can read about Swedish speaking Finns who have believed themselves already be Swedes when they moved to Sweden.

You obviously missed all my points and employed ad hominem attack instead. My English is not actually that bad. Heh. This is a known tactic of our Swedish speaking minority.

About PISA and bilinguality.

Finnish bilinguality is a political myth which has been abused
to enchance the aims of an elitist clique in the Swedish speaking
minority.

For further information and better (fact based) explanations of the Pisa
results, consult the link below.

Sincerely yours,
Pauli

http://www.edu.fi/english/pageLast.asp?path=500,571,36263,36266
*Factors behind the good literacy performance of the Finnish youth*

And, to add to my latest post, in Finnish cities coined bilingual, 90 % of the population speak Finnish as their mother tongue.

"It is very hard to understand that somebody has a problem with the fact that he's offered free language training."

Wise man once said that there's no such thing as a free lunch.

And a what real generous offer mandatory Swedish is! You can't say no to it! Really.

Btw. to set the record straight, Pauli is a man, who's seen too much, but who still believes there's a lot to look and live for.

---8

Posted by: Pauli Ojanperä | May 28, 2005 01:43 AM

I hope you find time to take a pilgrimage to a little town 17 kilometers west of Tampere. There you will have your mobile phone blessed and you can say "I visit the cradle of tech mobility" ... welcome to the town of Nokia.

Posted by: Brian Joyce | May 28, 2005 02:11 AM

"Complaining that one "has to learn" another language (or any subject for that matter, be it mathematics, biology, music... ) is an indication that a person is unappreciative and spoiled rotten, taking education for granted and having lost sight of the value of it."

On the contrary, they appreciate education so much they don't want to waste it or the money used in it. They want to get everything out of it. That's why they don't see the point in compulsory swedish.

"They use invented "facts", misquotations and statistics taken out of context to "make a point". As has been pointed out earlier, their poison doesn't reflect reality at all."

Well, the other side concentrates in name-calling, because there are no facts to justify the current situtation.
So, if you want to end this discussion or to show foreign people why all of your opposites are wrong, you should come up with decent arguments for compulsory swedish. Make a list.

btw,
Proud forest troll,
I liked your suggestions. Especially MOOSE and BERRIES. Moose, what a magnificent animal! Berry picking, always hated it, but still...

Posted by: in case you didn't notice | May 28, 2005 02:20 AM

Nikolas Ojala, there is a difference:

The school Swedish make only very few people feel sick. You're one of them. I have read your hate-monging web pages.

Posted by: Urja | May 28, 2005 02:49 AM

I believe the critters people call "moose" are nonexistent in Finland. They are called "elk". Mooses are American species and elks European ones.

Posted by: Urja | May 28, 2005 02:56 AM

Suomalaisille lukijoille suomeksi:
Sorry, in Finnish for the Finns who have not noticed the problem with fennomaniacs:

Fennomaanisoturit leikkivät näillä nationalistisiksi itsensä ilmoittavilla keskusteluforumeilla kansallisia vaikuttajia, politiikan tarkkanäköisiä vahtikoiria, Suomen viimeisiä mannerheimlinjoja, suoraselkäisiä vartiomiehiä, kansallismielisiä suomenkielen vaalijoita, pyyteettömän nationalistisia politiikansuunnan muuttajia - ja niin edelleen.

Kuitenkaan keskustelijat em. forumeilla eivät huomaa, että jo heidän oma kategorisointinsa itsestään - "nationalisti" - ontuu pahasti. "Kansallismielinen"-sanan perustavanlaatuinen ymmärtäminen on jäänyt isoilta pojilta puolitiehen. Ihan samalla tavalla kuin kuusikymmenluvulla isojen poikien lauluissa pimppa oli käsitetty - ilmeisesti tarkoituksella - jotenkin humoristisesti vinoon ja nostettu tuo kyseessä oleva naisen-alapuolen-yksi-piste eräänlaiseen glorifoivaan valoon.

Fennomaanisoturit eivät kuitenkaan suhtaudu itseensä eivätkä "nationalismi"-sanaan tippaakaan humoristisesti. Glorifoivasti kylläkin. Nationalismi on näille nettikeskustelijoille jotain pyhää, jotain elämää suurempaa, jotain johon kuuluvat Suomen sotien (hiukan väärinkäsitetty, korkeajännitysmäinen) henki, suuret marssikulkueet soihtuineen, oikeat lukemistot lapsille, lasten tiukka, mutta oikeudenmukainen kasvatus kunnon valkoiseksi ihmiseksi, arjalaistyyppinen, vieraasta verestä vapaa suomalainen elovena-/tukkilaishahmo, ynnä muu jokseenkin nurkkakuntainen ja silmälappuinen ajattelutapa, joka tuo mieleen viime vuosisadan kolmikymmenluvun alun Saksan.

Vaan - kuinka ollakaan - tuon mieleentulevan ajatuksen ns. fennomaanisoturit torjuvat toki jyrkästi väittäen kivenkovaan "huolehtivansa ja olevansa huolissaan vain Suomen nykyhetkestä ja etenkin tulevaisuudesta" - ja tulevaisuuden nationalistit näkevät uhkakuvia täynnään olevana painajaismaisena harmageddonina, mikäli nykyinen - nationalistien mielestä yltiöliberaalinen, suvaitseva ja siksi negatiivinen - kehitys saa jatkua.

Fennomaanisotureiden nettikeskusteluja sivusta seuraava ei kuitenkaan voi välttyä ajattelemasta, että nykynationalistit pyrkivät jollain oudolla tavalla jakamaan Suomen kahteen kastiin - meihin ja heihin - ja kuljeksivat siksi ketunhäntä kainalossa, omia omituisia tarkoitusperiään juuri NYT vahvistaakseen julistamassa sanomaansa internetissä. Kyse ei tunnu olevan tulevaisuudesta ollenkaan, vaan pääasia tuntuu olevan se, että Suomeen saataisiin jonkinlainen vastenmielinen erottelumentaliteetti mahdollisimman nopeasti aikaan.

Toivotaan etnisiä konflikteja, joita mukamas niin kovasti pelätään, elätellään haavetta hurrien joukkolynkkajaisista ja oman-käden-oikeuden käyttöönottamisesta kaikkein "väärien" henkilöitten suhteen. Lienee sanomattakin selvää, että fennomaanisotureiden mielestä "vääriä" henkilöitä ovat paitsi "hurrit" myös muiden muassa homoseksualistit, lesbot, kommarit, vihreät, sivarit, totaalikieltäytyjät, demarit, suvaitsevat, kelan henkilökunta ja väärällä tavalla luovat taiteilijat.

Posted by: Finnish and proud of it | May 28, 2005 04:51 AM

For the writer and photographer a lot of thanks for the marvellous article. It is great to see how You experience our country.

For people using this blog on "fight" about swedish language in schools or some other totally irrelevant topic - shame on you. These kind of "conversations" are ruining the nice picture the article itself gives out of us Finns. =)

You might want to think that people from other countries than Finland are also reading this conversation and the level of some of the text here is not very good.

Let´s not go here to subjects which are "eternal" problems. Yes, we have problems too in Finland... but quite minor ones compared to some other countries in the world.

I wish the reportes a excellent journey with translated words of our national anthem. =)

"Our land, our land, our native land,
Oh, let her name ring clear!
No peaks against the heavens that stand,
No gentle dales or foaming strand
Are loved as we our home revere,
The earth our sires held dear."

Posted by: Lepistö | May 28, 2005 05:04 AM

Suomalaisille lukijoille suomeksi:
Sorry, in Finnish for the Finns who have not noticed the problem with fennomaniacs:

Posted by: Finnish and proud of it | May 28, 2005 05:08 AM

To "foreign" journalist;

Kalevala; Elias Lönnrot was an ethnic Finn. According to the then Yoke-Swedish, he had to learn and use Swedish among the establishment.

Indpendence War, Winter War; Marshall Mannerheim's family origins from Holland. According to the then Yoke-Swedish among expats, the family had to to learn and use Swedish. Mannerheim used much Russian and other languages. AND HE DID NOT ACCEPT THE SWEDISHNESS IN FINLAND. HE WANTED TO BE ALSO A FINN, IN HIS IDENTITY. This fact is never told by Swedomaniacs, but you can read it from Mannerheim museum official web pages.

Finnish ABC Book,Bible; Mikael Agricola, was from a typical Finnish wealthy home. He developed the Finnish writing system, which btw, today is the best as to the phonetical accuracy in Europe. He asked money from the King of Sweden, but he did not get any. Still he made his brave and incredible amount of work.

Finlandia; Sibelius wrote his love letters to his bride and wife Aino in Finnish.

Finnish language is oppressed everywhere where Swedes have the power. We can show myriads of murdered Finns, just because they dared to speak Finnish. We cannot find any Swedes, who would have been eliminated because of their Swedish.

And in all, is it not so that this blog shows that in Finland, the issue of LANGUAGE FREEDOM is the biggest sustaining and wide-spread problem?

English language is our weapon to get the liberty.

Posted by: LanguageWarrior | May 28, 2005 05:51 AM

Jari Lievonen wrote:
" the majority voluntarily making room for the minority."

Jari, it's selfish of you to think that Swedes are the only minority in Finland. There are others, in fact, such as the Saami, Russians, and Gypsies. So you'll have to share the "minority" label with them. They have no rights or advantages anywhere close to the level of the Swedish, even though the Saami have been in Finland for centuries before Swedish colonisation. I have to inform you that the unjust advantages and benefits that Swedes have been making and taking for themselves from Finns will come to an end soon. Remember when 40,000 Finnish students protested to reduce the swedish-language requirement for university graduation?

What about Henrik Lax, the presidential candidate from the Swedish People's party, when he said "tell Finnish youth that they won't work in this country unless they speak Swedish." Sounds like a racist ***hole to me.

And you say we are "voluntarily" making room for the minority Swedes? LOL!!!
You think that unfair advantages in government jobs, exclusive Swedish language schools and universities, disproportionate quotas in university admissions, and forcing the whole Finnish-speaking population to learn a minority's foreign language, etc is merely "making room"? You must also think Chernobyl was only a little accident.

You are clearly not aware of the decade of polls which show that we don't want compulsory swedish in our schools. Or perhaps you are pretending to be stupid so you can make write nonsense.

I think the great American Lincoln said: You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. Jari, you should keep that in mind.

Posted by: Anti-apartheid | May 28, 2005 06:00 AM

Urja wrote:

"The school Swedish make only very few people feel sick. You're one of them."

No, actually the so called second domestic language (ie. Swedish) only annoyed me. But there were others.

"I have read your hate-monging web pages."

Ladies and gentlemen, may I introduce my true audience; the most devoted reader of my "hate-monging" web pages.

Posted by: Nikolas Ojala | May 28, 2005 06:08 AM

"You might want to think that people from other countries than Finland are also reading this conversation and the level of some of the text here is not very good."

Pauli Ojanperä (w/ the other names he uses here) appears to be a character who has also filled the Finnish newsgroups with similar crap. Obviously a conchie too, declined to go to the Finnish army. These kinds of lousy mouth characters always need to be in the opposition. If there isn't one suitable they create one.

Posted by: | May 28, 2005 06:10 AM

Here's my plea,

If you want to end this discussion or to show foreign people why all of your opposites are wrong (and uneducated bigots etc.), you should come up with decent arguments for compulsory swedish. Make a list.

Your fierce denial makes it more obvious that there is a problem, and you just can't make it go away, at least not with decent argumentation.

So please, make a list.

Posted by: in case you didn't notice | May 28, 2005 07:21 AM

Quotes:

"If we think back in the history it is quite possible that many of the educated Finnish men took a foreign (Swedish) name to be able to deal with the Kings court. We all know how tough those Finnish names can be. I would be really surprised if the American readers didn't understand all of this quite well because the are descendants of immigrants.
About Porthan, what language is his name btw? He was the father of the history writing of the Finland. Or Michael Agricola, sounds Latin to me but he was born in Pernaja and translated the first New Testament into Finnish."

And:

"Finnish ABC Book,Bible; Mikael Agricola, was from a typical Finnish wealthy home. He developed the Finnish writing system"

To get another view apart from this discussion, according to Eugene Holmes:

...
8. As Swedish power expanded within Finland, many Finnish speakers considered it desirable to abandon their language and identity for the more prestigious Swedish. On the other hand, with Finnish being the language of
the majority of the population, many Swedish and Sami speakers abandoned their language and identity and became Finns.
...

Posted by: | May 28, 2005 07:22 AM

To: Timo A. and Risto Apajalahti

Thanks for explaining the origins of those last names. My point, however, is not that a non-Finnish sounding last name means that the person who bears the name has Swedish blood. Ethnicity is far more plastic than that.

You mentioned the German speaking tradesmen who lived in many Baltic port towns. Those communities were founded by immigrants who never dreamed of a German national state. Their genes and surnames live on, but their language and ethnic identity has vanished. After some generations other ethnic groups have assimilated them. Today they are Lithuanians, Finns, Estonians or Russians.

One would guess that when Europe was more divided by religion and kingdom than ethnicity and language, the Baltic Germans would have been more likely to become Swedish speakers. Individual families may not have followed such trends, but marriage choices usually include class and status considerations. Women with university degrees rarely marry men who have not obtained a similar level of education. The youngest son of a Baltic German tradesman might have gone into the church, then taken a position in a Finnish speaking parish. On the sly he might have impregnated Finnish peasant girls who couldn't speak Swedish, but he did not marry one.

You don't have to read a dry book on ethnography or anthropology to see how complicated ethnicity, language and politics can become. Remember the The Tin Drum (Die Blechtrommel) by Günter Grass? Some of the characters were Kashubes. There is not much left of the them today, since they were caught between the ethnic and nationalistic conflict of Poles and Germans.

Conflicts over language are common in politics. Norwegian intellectuals created a separate Norwegian language (Nynorsk) to express the nationalistic sentiment that separated them from Denmark and Sweden.

When the Soviet Union tried to takeover Finland, Stalin agreed to use unification of the Karelian and Finnish working classes as a justification for military aggression. After the war Finnish remained an official language in Karelia, but no surviving Ingrian, Veps or Karelian would have dared walk into a government office, requesting service in Finnish. That would have meant the Gulag. Russia not very long ago ended the fiction that Finnish was a functioning official language in Karelia. Today even ethnic Russians in Karelia are learning Finnish.

Young Karelians who grew up without speaking Karelian (because their grandparents and parents understood it was dangerous), but who is passionate about that identity and look to Finland as an example of a different and better way of life. Nationalistic/chauvinistic Russians despise them for this, accusing those Karelians and Ingrians who try to breath life into their roots of being opportunistic.

Much of the discussion about Swedish on this blogg is about the issue of ethnicity, status and economic privilege. My point is that the contributors to this blogg by and large are ignoring the greater context.

Latvia has a large Russian speaking national minority, many of whom are stateless. Would you advise the parliament there to institute a policy like Finland's (two official languages with parallel institutions or one language for public life)?

Finland has turned to the EU to protest Russian treatment of the Mari people who speak a language related to Finnish. That would have been unthinkable not so long ago.

As an observer I cannot know what is right and wrong in this language status dispute, but it is pointless to have a discussion about the Swedish language ethnic minority that treats the situation as historically unique.

Re: the Rogers boys
It is illegal to lock people up in a mental institution just because some authority finds it convenient. People ought to be outraged, but they are not. Why?

Another example, didn't Sonera executives use information from tapped phones to trace journalists who had sources within the company? Didn't that lead to their prosecution? I haven't followed the story closely, but I got the impression that police officials who knew about their crimes were acquitted.

A few more questions:

1)What do people in Finland think about the special dispensation from the EU to allow continued consumption of fatty fish, such as herring and salmon? How does this jive with Finland's consumer protection laws?

2)What sort of consequences did the F 18 purchase have? Has the contact between the US and Finnish air force led to more than just the exchange of equipment? Did local Finnish papers write about US pilots visiting Finland and socializing with local communities?

3)Will Finland copy Sweden and institute a law banning the purchase of sexual services?

Posted by: foreign journalist | May 28, 2005 08:36 AM

Hi Urja,

Thanks for commenting on something else than the Finnis vs. Sweidsh!!!

You wrote;
"I believe the critters people call "moose" are nonexistent in Finland. They are called "elk". Mooses are American species and elks European ones"

Actually, the Finnish big animal with the vacant stare is indeed a Moose. An "elk" is a smaller animal. The "elk" is what in Swedis is called "Kron-Hjort". Confusing "elk" and Moose" is common, because "moose" is Sweish in called "Alg" (sorry for the lack of dotts on the A). Stange but true. Go Figure. Yes, I am one of those annoying ppl who speak 8 languages :)

I am just hoping I can move the discussion away from he Finnish vs Swedish question, bec ause we have now heard every side of the story and this blog is becoming really really boring. If we need to discuss language, why don't we discuss the meaning of words, funny expressions, things that are far more interesting.... Like Moose, Elk and Berries!

Posted by: Proud Forest Troll | May 28, 2005 08:53 AM

"Some teachers didn't think it was proper to speak Finnish all the time at a Swedish school. Why, I have no idea."

Several years ago I was reprimanded for using Finnish as the help language during English language club lessons at the Kronohagen (sp?) Swedish-speaking school in Helsinki. I don't speak Swedish and the kids wouldn't speak English with me but they were delighted to find out that I knew some Finnish. So I felt that was the best way to get through to them, but when the principle/headmaster heard about that, they told me that they didn't want me using any Finnish with the kids, and the principle actually did a spot check on one of the lessons to verify that I was following their rules.

About religion: it is not true that Finland is not a religious society. It is predominantly Christian- the ways in which it is practiced are simply different and more subtle than in other countries. Finland even has a Bible Belt...it is in Oulunsalo, a suburb of Oulu where I live. Oulu just today had Kirkkopäivät- Church Days in the market square. The phrase HerraJumala or HerraJeesus (Lord God or Lord Jesus, used as an expression of shock or surprise) is very common in everyday speech, at least here in northern Finland. The official state religion is Lutheranism, and up here in the north and especially southern Lapland, First Communion is extremely important to teens. It is like a rite of passage into adulthood, stores advertise special gifts for the occasion, and some get so excited about it that for them it is like Christmas. They attend pre-communion school, which is called Rippikoulu. Particularly in northern Finland, anyone who is not Lutheran is treated like something of an outcast.

"Free" education: it is not free; it is paid for by taxes. The way it is supposed to work is that students get their higher education without any individual tuition costs, but then they are expected to pay for the education through their income taxes later on when they find work. Too many people took advantage of this idealistic system, and now there is a new legislation proposal to have non-EU students pay tuition. The pending change will likely eventually extend to EU students, and ultimately Finnish students as well.

Posted by: Caroline | May 28, 2005 10:20 AM

As a Finnish entrepreneur I have to admit socialism combined with enough but not too much capitalism really works. Yes, taxes are high but one gets really efficient, fast and accurate service for that.

Health service is a bitch but so it is everywhere, especially in the US where there are so many millions of uninsured people. But hey, who cares..there are wars to be fought in exotic countries in the name of Der Freiheit and Fatherland.

In my opinion US is very rich but spending all too much to all the wrong places (military, jails, fatherland security etc..). Rapidly becoming another Argentina or Brazil with a lot of poors and few rich people.

In wintertime Finland can be hell because of endless darktime and coldness but heaven in summertime because of 24 hour light and occasional heat waves. The darktime is the main reason for high suicide rates. After all, Finland is located as north as Alaska.

Bitching and moaning never stops in Finland, especially from those who have never experienced living abroad and have no comparison points. Under surface Finnish people are quite happy with way things are. It has been one hell of work to pull this thing called welfare state through with really equal opportunities for everyone, regardless of background.

Many Americans seem to think this kind of way running a state is "nanny state". But really, helping man while he is down helps a lot of more collectively instead of kicking him hard and expecting him to "shape up".

Posted by: tim73 | May 28, 2005 10:38 AM

This blog is some of the most fascinating reading I've ever seen on WP. For a country of its size Finland really has a lot to be proud of, but especially intriguing is the dialogue between the pro and anti apartheid camps.

I wonder a bit about those individuals who keep telling us to ignore certain posts and only discuss subjects *they* want to talk about. What's up with the control freaks?

Posted by: Barney O'Connor | May 28, 2005 11:07 AM

Section 17 Right to one's language and culture

(1) The national languages of Finland are Finnish and Swedish.
(2) The right of everyone to use his or her own language, either Finnish or Swedish, before courts of law and other authorities, and to receive official documents in that language, shall be guaranteed by an Act. The public authorities shall provide for the cultural and societal needs of the Finnish-speaking and Swedish-speaking populations of the country on an equal basis.

---

Because the Swedish speaking Finns are few and spread around, they need proportionally more people educated in the service sector so that it is ensured that there are services in their own tongue available to them. Thus, universities need to let in disproportionally many swedish speaking finns in. That's all- there's no elitist about it.

And furthermore, the Swedish speaking population in Finland is actually increasing, not decreasing. According to statistics anyway.

I will not speculate on long dead Finns' swedishness, but I will point out that on many an occasion it has been a swedish speaking finn who has championed the rights of the whole of Finland. The fact that we can speak Finnish freely, is an accomplishment of not only Finnish speaking Finns, but of Swedish speaking Finns also.

Compulsory Finnish and Swedish are needed to ensure that every Finn, whether or not they speak Finnish or Swedish as their mother tongue, have equal oppurtunities.

Of course you don't want to go through the hassle of learning another language, nobody does. There is even a larger majority of Swedish speaking Finns living in rural Österbotten (Pohjanmaa) who are against compulsory FINNISH. To them, Swedish is the only language they use.

In the end, it comes down to a play with words. The constitution states that both Swedish and Finnish are language's of Finland. Thus, Swedish IS Finnish as much as Finnish is Finnish. Shouldn't all Finns know both Finnish languages?

Mmm?

Posted by: | May 28, 2005 11:24 AM

Cuckoo-logic: "Because the Swedish speaking Finns are few and spread around, they need proportionally more people educated in the service sector so that it is ensured that there are services in their own tongue available to them. Thus, universities need to let in disproportionally many swedish speaking finns in. That's all- there's no elitist about it."

In Iceland, there are 300,000 Icelanders but no Finns giving them services. Still they survive.

Cuckoo-logic: Because there are 10,000 Swedes in Finland, who cannot speak fluent Finnish, Finland must teach ALL 5,2 million other people Swedish language, to pamper the superior caste with five star service in Swedish!

Even in darkest times in South Africa, you could not find so many Afrikaans-speakers just to give service to Boers.

Now it is over. You, Swedes are allowed to speak Swedish among each others. But we Finns do no more go to your old peoples hospitals to change your grandmothers' diapers. You must do it yourselves! Like all people in the world do.

Naturally, there is lack of Swedish-speaking servants, because all Swedes have rushed to highly-paid public servant positions, which they could get ONLY because they comply with the illegal racistic criteria of being able to speak Swedish, the language of Nordic conquistadores.

So your requirement to get Swedish service from Finns is not only ridiculous and economically very very costly, it is illegal as to the LAW OF EUROPEAN UNION, see the Directive EC 2000/43: "(18) In very limited circumstances, a difference of treatment may be justified where a characteristic related to racial or ethnic origin constitutes a genuine and determining occupational requirement, when the objective is legitimate and the requirement is proportionate. " It is not proportionate that 5.2 million people must learn the language of 10,000 only. Remember: ALL other Swedes do speak fluent Finnish.

Posted by: LanguageWarrior | May 28, 2005 12:05 PM

Hyvä Pauli

You want to know where you went over the line?

This is what Hank had to say:

"At times, the Finnish-Swedish rivalry might seem intense, but not really - in the end they're all Finns."

You'r responce:

"Not really. You can read about Swedish speaking Finns who have believed themselves already be Swedes when they moved to Sweden."

You said it right there, dude. More importantly it was the general tone of you'r writing. You are making references to apartheid for christ's sake. It's my oppinion that mandatory Swedish is unnecessary, but I wouldn't go as far as saying Swedish speaking Finns are mutilating Finnish children's lingual and cultural identities - I believe you said something along those lines. Good day to you, sir.

Proud Finn

You were wondering if we today would have such guts and determination (Sisu). Well we (the younger generations) are a bit spoiled, but I think we Finns still got some left of that good ol' SISU.

I too send my best wishes to you and your family. Have a good week end.

AND THIS IS FOR EVERYBODY!!! Let's talk about sports. How about that Kimi Räikkönen? Will he take his third win on a row tomorrow. I'm talking about Formula One of course.

Tata, H

Posted by: Hannes Vauhkonen | May 28, 2005 12:24 PM

To foreígn journalist:

"Re: the Rogers boys
It is illegal to lock people up in a mental institution just because some authority finds it convenient. People ought to be outraged, but they are not. Why?"

Because people don´t think they were locked in, people think that journalists were locked out. The whole thing was handled very poorly indeed. That happened somewhere in nort-eastern parts of the country, and maybe that hospital was the only place where they could be hidden.

"Another example, didn't Sonera executives use information from tapped phones to trace journalists who had sources within the company? Didn't that lead to their prosecution? I haven't followed the story closely, but I got the impression that police officials who knew about their crimes were acquitted."

I haven´t followed it closely either. But just a couple of days ago two of those Sonera executives got sentences, and if I remember right they were 6 months and 10 months.

"What do people in Finland think about the special dispensation from the EU to allow continued consumption of fatty fish, such as herring and salmon?"

Hmm, I think that was what the people of Finland wanted: to ignore all consumer laws and eat what they like. People usually don´t like fatty Norwegian bag salmon, but wild salmon is a different thing. And herring steaks with mashed potatoes are just too good to be left uneaten. But everybody knows that herring should not be eaten more than once a week, and even then the smaller the fish are, the better. But not because of fat, but because of dioxine they contain. Hell, we even eat "korvasieni", those crinkly, brown mushrooms that are deadly poisonous if they are not treated properly.

Posted by: Afinnwhoelse | May 28, 2005 01:18 PM

Hi Proud Forest Troll

Unfortunately you are wrong. "Kjornhort" is "red deer", "saksanhirvi" in Finnish.

"Älg" is "elk", "hirvi" in Finnish. "Elk" is a British expression, as "moose" is American. I don't know if they are different species but North American moose are much bigger than their North European cousins.

Translation for "saksanhirvi" would be "german elk", but an elk is not a deer and red deer is most definitely a deer, zoologically.

There are no wild red deers in Finland.

Posted by: Urja | May 28, 2005 01:28 PM

Caroline replied:

"I agree with everything you said in this quote, except the last sentence. I doubt that absolute gender equality will ever be a reality anywhere, for the reason you gave: that it is an issue of human nature, not culture or economics or society."

A: This is an absolutely intriguing question. Still, I seriously do believe that there is a chance.

I just recently read extracts from Mary Comdren's (feministic) study of the middle age convents in Ireland. In the study she brings up the female goddesses and strong female figures of the pre Christian age amongst the Celtic and Germanic nations. According to Comdren, the strong influence of women was very much alive in the early Christianity too. Because of this(?) the Catholic church (men) wanted to bring down the female influence and power and as one of the acts ordered all nuns to cut their hair. At that time a long hair was the symbol of strength for women.

I sincerely believe that this is a question of up bringing and education. Love and respect has a lot to say in this, though the grown up children will meet a conflict when they meet the so often twisted attitudes in the "real" life.

---

Of the weak self-esteem and shyness of the Finns:

Lot of it is said to result from the lack of respect towards the Finns back in the history. Still, if another Finn talks to another Finn there is usually no shyness or looking at your feet. A Finn can - or at least previously could - sense the same feeling if you took the ferry across to Estonia and started to talk *in Finnish* to a local inhabitant.

First, in a situation where the other person has to use a foreign language it is obviously that s/he usually can not express oneself inadequately and equally. This unequal situation may create a feeling of inferiority. The second reason is even simpler than the first one. This materialized world which measures everything in horse powers, square meters and bank accounts has given the false impression that our value as a human being depends on these properties. The Lutheran education of Christianity in our schools should talk more about love and forgiveness - which are the main issues - instead of what ever they teach these days.

I remember reading about an intelligence test for young children in the US back in the fifties and the result was that the foreign children were not as intelligent as the native speakers. The test was in English. Not being able to express yourself has a lot to do with everything.

---

"And Finns are great at supporting their own. They will pay 3 euros for a finnish grown cucumber even though it is next to a 50 cent cucumber from Spain. They buy finnish brands no matter how tasteless they are and will only say great things about anything finnish. "

A: Oh and how about the Americans supporting their own farmers? Besides you meant those tasteless;-) foreign cucumbers with so much water in them. I'm quite willing to pay some extra to get a cucumber that tastes like a cucumber and at the same time support the Finnish farmers and keep the money in the country, sure, why not?

Posted by: Risto Apajalahti | May 28, 2005 02:39 PM

Barney O'Connor,

You wrote, "I wonder a bit about those individuals who keep telling us to ignore certain posts and only discuss subjects *they* want to talk about. What's up with the control freaks?"

Before Internet was popular, it was the firstmost tactic of the Swedish speaking power elite to kill public talk about the oppression we are living under. Now that there is Internet, they couldn't but watch us tell the truth. Certain individuals just haven't realised they can't deny us talking anymore.

To nameless,

You wrote, "Compulsory Finnish and Swedish are needed to ensure that every Finn, whether or not they speak Finnish or Swedish as their mother tongue, have equal oppurtunities."

Let me tell you what. Signing your post with your own name would be a respectable move. There are all too many Swedish speaking cowards lurking and yelling from the bushes.

To Hannes Vauhkonen,

"You said it right there, dude. More importantly it was the general tone of you'r writing. You are making references to apartheid for christ's sake. It's my oppinion that mandatory Swedish is unnecessary, but I wouldn't go as far as saying Swedish speaking Finns are mutilating Finnish children's lingual and cultural identities - I believe you said something along those lines. Good day to you, sir."

Okay, I see you tag people by their opinions. On the issue about some Swedish speakers' national identity, I'm sad I have no other options for an opinion, knowing that it really is true that some of them are very unstably committed to our society.

Posted by: Pauli Ojanperä | May 28, 2005 03:10 PM

To the "foreign journalist":
"2)What sort of consequences did the F 18 purchase have? Has the contact between the US and Finnish air force led to more than just the exchange of equipment? Did local Finnish papers write about US pilots visiting Finland and socializing with local communities?"

First, there was really no US military personnel visiting Finland. Instead the finnish pilots were sent in to be trained in the US. These pilots in turn trained other finnish pilots when they returned. There is co-operation between finnish and US military in Kosovo for example - what effects this fighter trade had... well, there is no definite proof of it.

Some claim that the choice fell on F18 Hornets because they are NATO compatible aircraft - that other aircraft had actually been better fighters in the finnish envinronment. Of course, this borders on paranoia - the same people claim that it all a grand plan of taking Finland in to NATO behind the scenes. Believe it if you want. There are some people with such thoughts in the bureocracies and the right-wing parties for sure.

Right now the finnish Patria Industries is selling weapon technology to USA. Some say this is against the finnish (and EU) laws, since the USA is a nation in war. Of course - the war in Iraq was never officially decreed and was claimed to be over a year ago. Again, it is up to you how you see this.

Finnish papers generally avoid digging too deep on sensitive matters. This is a small country, it can lead to all kind of problems. Investigative journalism is practically unknown. The Finnish Broadcasting Company has the MOT program that tries to do some, but often their "scoops" are just mudslinging. For example, one of their reporters is renown for his personal bias towards all kind of Green Movements and is on a crusade to make them show as bad as possible.

"3)Will Finland copy Sweden and institute a law banning the purchase of sexual services?"

Not likely - good reason being that most of MP's are middle-aged men. This is the class of people that is the most sympathic towards those who use prostitutes. Indeed, middle-aged men are those who most often buy sex.

However, the question about making purchase of sex criminal itself is a very problematic one. In Sweden, it haven't made prostitution any rarer. It has just hid it behind closed doors. On the other hand, studies indicate that the life of a prostitute has become even more dangerous. The clients are even more likely to be violent and on the other hand, pressure from pimps and mafia is even harder.

Banning the purchase of sexual services isn't really the solution to the problem. Abuse of women will continue, in a form or another. I guess the real problem here are the attitudes of men buying the services. They hold romantic notions of the prostitutes actually wanting to do the job or something like that... or sex being some kind of "basic need" that they have the right to buy if it is not provided otherwise. I have heard comments like "how else could a fat, ugly 55-year old man get laid?" laid in defence of legalizing brothels. I guess they are the same people who are heavy users of porn and have a very twisted picture of the female gender.

ps. I'm heterosexual male myself.

Posted by: Observer | May 28, 2005 03:23 PM

As an American with Finnish roots I'm absolutely appalled by this discussion. One or two activists use this forum to spread lies about the relations of the different language groups. Shame on you Pauli Ojenpera and the rest of you (if there are any others).

What strikes me, is that one man has during prime working time, time to produce this many hate messages. To my knowledge the holidays haven't yet started in Finland nor have the schools ended. Either this "character" is very very lazy on his job or then the tax payers are paying for his "hobby".

I do agree. It sounds like a lot of Paulis that I met in school. Now they work at the local Burger King. I guess you don't have Burger King in Finland?

Posted by: Charles Davidson | May 28, 2005 04:34 PM

I forgot!

If "Barney O'Connor" is native English speaker then I'm a moose.

My guess is that Pauli has a big brother who knows little more English than he does.

Posted by: Charles Davidson | May 28, 2005 04:43 PM

To Urja:

North American moose and European elk are the same species, according to a BBC article. Other mammals that are the same species but go by different names: the grizzly/brown bear, buffalo/bison and elk/red deer.

The European elk is extinct in the British isles, so the native American word "moose" is probably better known to non-native speakers of English.

Posted by: foreign journalist | May 28, 2005 04:57 PM

Check out the following link, and tell me if you think it would be just to require every single blue spot on the map to learn the red spots' language.

http://people.cc.jyu.fi/~pasaojan/pakkoruotsi/Suomiko%20kaksikielinen.gif

Posted by: Pauli Ojanperä | May 28, 2005 05:19 PM

The link I posted is a map of Finland, where the blue spots denote Finnish speaking citizens and red spots denote Swedish speaking ones.

Posted by: Pauli Ojanperä | May 28, 2005 05:24 PM

Oi! Sure we got emotions too.

http://prague.tv/galleries/image.php?filename=finnish-emotions.jpg;gallery=funny-pics7

Posted by: your ad here | May 28, 2005 07:13 PM

To Pauli,
Thanks for the answer. Apartheid in Finland. Whoda thunk it?

To Charles Davidson,
You need help.

Posted by: Barney O'Connor | May 28, 2005 08:05 PM

your ad here sez:

"Oi! Sure we got emotions too.
http://prague.tv/galleries/image.php?filename=finnish-emotions.jpg;gallery=funny-pics7 "

Janne Ahonen drives a drag race car these days too. I suppose these pictures express either premature concentration (a couple of months till summer) or they mean that it's not fun at all to win 10 ski jumps in a row;-)

Posted by: Risto Apajalahti | May 28, 2005 09:23 PM

Janne was known for his "happy smiling demeanor" in the start of his career, and there used to be a similar cartoon joke fom the telefax days circulating...

Posted by: Hank W. | May 28, 2005 10:17 PM

Pauli O., yeah right. Seen this person on the discussion forum of one finnish science magazine. And he didn't get much respect there (either). Mostly considered as an compulsory pain in the a***.

By the way, have there been a colloquy about finnish summer holidays? I had once this conversation with my US friend I came up to know last summer, when I told I had mandatory 4 weeks summer holiday, all though I'd liked to spent that time working. She was a bit amazed about it...

Posted by: Sepi Hutkonen | May 28, 2005 11:33 PM

To Foreign Journalist:

Not quite, there are other buffaloes which are certainly different species: African cape buffalo and Indian water buffalo.

And I've been taught that European bison is a different species as American, or could they be subspecies?

For example, the Baltic rin

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