There are different categories of being down. I once had a discussion with an addict in Kallio (in Helsinki, close to the Harjukatu sauna). He said he'd been doing drugs for 30 years, most of his friends from the 1970s were dead now. What struck me was he said he'd never for one night had to sleep outdoors.

Does being unemployed have the same stigma in Finland as in America? I mean, 10% unemployment + elaborate safety net, is there any incentive to get off the dole? If I don't have a job in America, I better get one fast. Send resumes, go on interviews, talk up people, cold call...whatever it takes.

Is it same in Finland? Say, someone in the IT field for example?

It's nice that you covered this aspect of life too. What worries me is those young people in their late teens and early twenties who are not even looking for a job or training - they are perfectly happy to live on the dole on payments that go on, as you said, indefinitely. I trust they are the exception, but the downside of the welfare system is that it may encourage passivity.

I totally agree with the previous post. There are even families in many generations using and taking everything they can, the kids learn at home that you don't have to to go to work because you get the money anyways. I'm not a racist but for example the gypsies living in Finland are a very good example of that. I'm aware that there are many good things about their culture but they also have a very bad reputation of using the system in any ways they can.

Of course there is a stigma but probably not as serious as in the US. There are incentives, but some of them staggeringly inefficient. Iltalehti (tabloid paper) cited a study by the Technical Research Centre of Finland (VTT) last week according to which vocational training and induction courses are provided for the unemployed at a cost of 3,300 million euros a year. The success rate is terrible - jobs are achieved for some 2,000 people, which means the cost of training has been 66,000 euros per employed person per year! It would save money to hire the unemployed to work for the State instead of providing these inefficient courses, Iltalehti concludes. (Of course, this would make the course lecturers in turn unemployed.)

I believe for the first 500 days with payments tied to previous earning level people can stay unemployed very comfortably, after that there's probably more motivation to start sending off resumes if the person hasn't done it by then. But losing one's long-standing job does not bring on an immediate financial catastrophe even to someone with no savings - so the pressure is not as high as it would be in the US.

The trend of jobs disappearing from Finland is alarming - job security is not very good i.e. it is cheap to make workforce redundant. Closures of industrial plants of Wärtsilä and Leaf have just been announced in Turku, both profitable units but not as highly profitable as elsewhere.

The nation's paper production (worth 40 million euros daily) has been completely halted for over three weeks now because of strikes (by the best-paid workers in the country) and employer side's shutdowns which certainly do not promise a bright future for employees in that sector - companies see they can do the same paper at lower costs and with less hassle elsewhere. The countdown has started in many companies to transfer production to countries with lower employer costs and better competitiveness - at serious costs to the nation. If the paper industry does not reach settlement soon we might be facing another massive recession like in the 1990s.

The employer costs are high here to provide the "Finnish safety net". You can't have it both ways though. The stronger the net, the more expensive it is on firms and everyone else and the less motivated firms are to keep jobs here.

curiositykilledthecat, I work as a software developer in Finland, and thus feel I can try and answer your question.

I believe it's pretty much the same over here (in the IT industry, at least). The most important incentive is probably the fact that employers appreciate work experience a lot - sometimes more than they appreciate university degrees - so if one loses one's job and doesn't get employed again pretty soon, it gets harder and harder to find another job. But it's hard to say whether it's better to keep on trying to find an IT job for several months or just go to McDonald's after a while.

"If I don't have a job in America, I better get one fast. "
==============================================
Perhaps you could tell the rest of us how to get a job FAST in the US. After I was laid off it took me 18 months to get another full-time job. The salary was a bit more than half of my old salary. While I was out of work health insurance costs for me and my family were nearly as much as my mortgage payment.

I think it is against the law to beg for money in Finland. A lot of people do this for a living in America (I'm not sure how many). I've heard you can make a pretty good living at it if you get a good corner. Nobody ever asked me for money when I was in Finland. It was refreshing. In America in most cities you get asked for money a lot. A lot of people seem to live underneath bridges and so on. There is a Kaurimaki film called The Man Without a Past in which a man lives in a boxcar, and gets clothes from the Salvation Army. He is supposed to live in Finland. But I guess it's a fantasy or something.

You need to know where the homeless people live at. One place theres been 3-4 shacks is a little nook with a power cable tower off the Lauttasaari bridge. You need to know where to look. There are homeless people living in self-made shacks; but generally they wish to be left alone as they're afraid of youth gangs. In the winter the situation gets worse.

American, that is just Kaurismäki´s style. All his films are like that.

It is not against the law to beg, it just isn´t common. And it is not a person sitting in some streetcorner, it is an occational kid or an old alcoholic asking for one euro to buy "coffee" or a "bus ticket".

For a young person finding a job its a catch-22. You need to have work experience to get a job and how will you get work experience if nobody hires you.

Then when you finally get a job, if through a temp agency, there is the thing of getting a permanent work contract. Many county jobs for example nursing, childcare, teachers give out only fixed short-term tenures. So teachers get laid off for the summmer. And with a fixed contract you really can't plan a life ahead.

Ok, so then you have work and are laid off. The longer time you are unemployed the less your chances get of getting employed. Employers start to think theres something wrong with you, been too long "lazy" on the dole etc. It stigmatizes quite a bit.

Problem is with say "academic unemployeds" say someone with a PhD - can only get short-term contracts. overqualified for some jobs and no demand for the skills otherwise.

Especially if you start being over 50, you are virtually unemployable. Nobody wants you.

In the USA there were some frail 80+ old ladies and men working in the McD... in Finland its 16-year olds...

And yes, we've also had the cases where a succesful engineeror a manager with has been laid off and he's left the house every morning not daring to tell his wife whats been happening (or Lord forbid the neigbours or kin finding out) then they come home one day and blow their brains out when the money runs out.

"Of course there is a stigma but probably not as serious as in the US. There are incentives, but some of them staggeringly inefficient. Iltalehti (tabloid paper) cited a study by the Technical Research Centre of Finland (VTT) last week according to which vocational training and induction courses are provided for the unemployed at a cost of 3,300 million euros a year. The success rate is terrible - jobs are achieved for some 2,000 people, which means the cost of training has been 66,000 euros per employed person per year!"

Insane! With this much of money you could start a lot of big businesses and put the thousands of unemployed to work there. On the other hand then all the trainers and unemployment officials would be without work;-)

" Especially if you start being over 50, you are virtually unemployable. Nobody wants you."

With a university degree I have been unemployed from October, 2002. Nobody wants you, that's true, I'm 52, I know. The only thing I have found I can do is to learn another profession at this age. For that, I'm taking the exam this week to get to the university again.

Hank's two posts (at 2.28 and 2.32 p.m ET) are very good descriptions of the situation. I just want to add that once unemployed and especially after the 500 day period with earnings bound unemployment benefit is over, it is practically impossible to accept anything else than a well paid full time job which is realistically not what you would be offered first.

If I made an odd gage for, let us say 100 euros, all my payments would stop immediately, the 100 euros would eventually be cut off the benefits but at least for a month I would be starving because the bureacracy takes its time to calculate these things.

No wonder many unemployed can not resist the temptation og moonlighting.

It seems that many of the jobs in middle-class employment are going overseas. In New York State for instance a great number of positions have disappeared. Whole towns feel like ghost towns. For instance in Rochester NY the Kodak company has sent two third's of its 70,000 jobs overseas. In Buffalo NY most of the traditional work has disappeared. In Rochester the poorer areas appear to be growing. Many drug addicts have taken the place of more prosperous people as a sort of despair has stepped in. And it's actually harder to compete for many jobs when you're a white male than if you have recently come from a third world country because of political correctness.

I know that in Finland it is the same thing. Probably in Tampere which used to make textiles based on the discrepancy between the water levels of the two lakes and the Tammerkoski hydroelectric power several companies once made textiles there. But Findlayson (the company in question) is now badminton courts and movie theatres and part of a polytechnic university. Findlayson's factories have largely disappeared, isn't that true? Isn't that also true of most such manual labor in Finland?

The transition will be hardest on the least educated workers in all of the industrialized countries. This is what motivates the neo-Nazis to do the damage that they do to foreigners. Most of these people are not very bright and are more or less ineducable, and yet they could do the more traditional work if that work was still around. But the more the socialist ideas increase the more companies wish to relocate elsewhere where they don't have to pay benefits, and the more the neo-Nazis will rise up (this is what happened in Germany in the 1930s when scarcity became the rule and the idea was to off the Jews and foreigners with National Socialism so there would be more for the locals).

And in this country there are Mexicans pouring across the border. Last year in Atlanta Georgia alone -- according to a report on MSNBC -- there were 90,000 illegal immigrants from Mexico to that ONE CITY alone. I think this will go to increase an already quite vocal right-wing in this country that is just furious about political correctness and also about the growing number of undocumented immigrants. In some ways I agree that the situation needs to be stabilized. Otherwise we are going to get more and more extremist voices.

Finland in some ways is less porous because you are surrounded by the Baltic Sea but nevertheless your jobs will leave to some extent and they will be taken by foreigners because Finland too is politically correct and you want to be seen as fair by outsiders. You are also protected to some extent by your very difficult language. Anybody can learn English because it is available everywhere. But if people grow up in Finland then they can speak Finnish. Isn't it also true that anybody in the EU (including Turkey and Latvia) can move to Finland and request social services?

I worry a lot. It took such a long time to develop prosperity in the west. Now it seems to be disappearing very fast, but perhaps somehow some solutions will be found. I worry in America about the growing power of the extreme conservatives. It seems to me that they will continue to get political power and it will probably last for at least two more presidencies. We are trying to find a balance but I don't think any of our political people have very good minds any longer. They all strike me as half-wits. Meanwhile Holland is finally no longer so liberal. After some of their journalists have been killed for standing up to the Muslims they are realizing what it will cost them for the next hundred years to have let in so many people from other cultures.

>>>curiositykilledthecat, I work as a software developer in Finland, and thus feel I can try and answer your question.

MJV, thanks for your response. I can only speak about the sw industry, as you. It just seems to me that 10% unemployment in Fin vs US are 2 different things. 10% unemployment in the US and you know things are pretty pathetic.

"Formerly unemployed," I don't have a magic answer to getting a job FAST in the US. I only meant, in my mind, that is what I am thinking. We get unemployment checks as well, as you know, but they run out after ? some period of time. It's the insurance that kills you, because when the company has paid most of it, it is startling to pay the full amount.

"Iltalehti (tabloid paper) cited a study by the Technical Research Centre of Finland (VTT) last week according to which vocational training and induction courses are provided for the unemployed at a cost of 3,300 million euros a year."

Actually, the study was by The State Audit Office (VTV). Government Institute for Economic Research (VATT) has also published similar results about labour market programs. In a report published in December 2004, youth practical training was found ineffective, i.e. it did not help in getting the job. As expected, results were much better in programs where the attendants get to work in real companies. Details: http://www.vatt.fi/english/julkaisut/tutkimus.asp?id=580

"Isn't it also true that anybody in the EU (including Turkey and Latvia) can move to Finland and request social services?"

Well, firstly, a little geography check - Turkey is not a member of the EU. Latvia is, but is one of the "new EU countries" one needs to petition for a labor certification (read:work permit). Anyone can come - like from the USA - and *request* social services -if they are granted is a totally different thing.

Basically, even a Finnish citizen after IIRC 2 years as a permanent resident abroad will "drop off" the social security system, and to receive some of the benefits one is required to be resident in the country - working - for a certain time before being covered.

So someone popping up the (un)employment centre asking for dole will quite promptly be told to go get work first. Actually the 500 days coverage is "private insurance" as getting this requires one to have joined an unemployment fund. Usually there are affiliated with unions (there is one unafiliated, http://www.ytk.fi that has an excellent explanation in English about the Finnish unemployment benefits system). One has to be contributing for 10 months to a fund before one is eligible for the 500 day benefit - many foreigners who come in the country really don't get this union/unemployment fund stuff as this is again one of these things "everybody knows" - its explained in social science usually on grade 9 and again at the end of vocational/high school.

Also,in Finland there is a "quarantine" period of 3 months if you quit or are fired. Fired as in booted out for misconduct rather than laid off for "economic and productional reasons".

Now then again a person saying the magic word "asylum" will be processed through the system. usually involving housed in some quaint rural town (read: in the midst of redneck hilbillies) and sitting in the middle of the forest while the application is processed. This used to take years and years and only a fraction of the refugees are granted an asylum; however many more do receive a temporary residence permit, which then can be changed for a permanent one, entitling the holder to work; but it ain't all peaches and cream, even though an asylum seeker will receive social security money.

So yes and no. It is a series of catch-22 situations.

As far as incentive to find work - the only incentive is not money or lack of. (Or fear of ending up on the streets, like in the U.S.) I am fortunate enough to be in a profession I love, and just plain enjoy working anyway - rather the community of a workplace than being alone and unemployed - so I am highly motivated, and on the two occasions I have been unemployed, have not used up my 500 days of well-paid unemployment. On the second occasion, I took a "pay cut" to work again.

What one needs to remember that while Finland is a large country by area, the population is small. Also internal mobility is quite restricted. When you hear of a multinational closing a factory employing 100 people in Nowheremäki, it isn't "big news" but when you know Nowheremäki has a population of 500, then you can imagine what a blow it is.

Allright, so if the multinational has another factory in Somewheremäki -100km away there is a possibility of jobs what would one expect the people to do?
Move? Two obstacles; where to find a job for the spouse, and who would buy the house?
Commute? 200km and with gas 5 bucks a gallon... some people do, and commute longer distances. Usually this involves men and a commune/trailer in the "other end" and then travelling back "to count the children" home on weekends. A bit like being a "gastarbeiter" in your own country. Especially in construction theres a lot of these "backpackers". Other seasonal workers are the hospitality industry workers in Lapland, but otherwise migratory work is a rarity.

The photos attached to this article show just about everyone smoking. Is smoking in Finland as bad as most of Europe? Is smoking in most public places allowed like most of Europe? If their health care system is so great why doesn't it promote strict no smoking?

After reading all the posts all I can think is how lucky I've been. And not just me, but my family back in Finland as well. I moved to U.S. in '92 just before the "depression" really hit Finland. I have always been able to find work here. I think a week was the longest time I was unemployed. And all I have is 2 years of "lukio" education. My mom used to say that I was lucky to be here instead of Finland.
Back home, I know it was hard for a while, but not one person in my family lost their jobs. My youger cousins all found good jobs after getting out of school. At least with my family and friends being unemployed was always little embaressing. It's been over 10 years so I don't know how much things have changed. It's hard to get a feeling of what's going on just from emails and the newspapers.
I agree that being down and out in U.S. is worse than in Finland. I think the cost of health care makes a big difference. I have friends here who lost everything because of hospital bills. I've never seen it happen in Finland.

Jaque, I believe that smoking and alcohol consumption is higher among the poorer part of population everywhere, not just in Finland. We do have big warning lables on cigarette packs and there's discussion whether Finland should do the same as Norway and Swden did just recently -- to forbid smoking in bars.

Smoking *on* the bar - counter that is - is forbidden and they passed a law requiring non-smoking areas. Europe in general has been banning smoking right and left, so the old image of guys puffing while waiting their bags off an airline conveyer belt are long gone. In Finland "smoking inside" in public buildings/workplaces has been banned for ...err.. ages. You have separate smoking rooms in offices, or a balcony, or you need to go outside. Fun in the winter in a -25 blizzard.

Jaque, Finland is "virtually smoke-free" compared to many European countries. :) Yes, people do smoke and smoking in bars is allowed. There is absolutely no smoking in public buildings, public transport etc. and people mostly respect this. Finns appreciate clean environment and this includes healthy air to breathe.

Advertising in general is quite controlled, but especially what it comes to alcohol/cigarettes: cigarettes are not advertised and advertising alcohol became legal only a few years back. Now it is discussed whether or not alcohol ads should be reduced to only naming the product & giving the details - nothing else. There are massive problems with alcohol misuse and I am glad "happy ads for drinking" are not that common, yet. Ads for smokes should be banned forever, since smoking is clearly unhealthy both for the smoker and _anyone_ around them...

I must also point out, that it is NOT uncommon to live without a car in the Helsinki area. The public transport network is very good and it is usually more painstaking to drive around in a car than what it is to take the bus/tram/metro/train or walk/bicycle/rollerblade. Thus, a car is not a necessity or something that everybody would reach for. For some it is, of course, essential to own a car and some want it because of status issues. Many are content and happy with the public transport system and would not want to accept the hassle and costs a car would bring.

There is an excellent system for using the public transport. Reittiopas web page (www.reittiopas.fi) is planned to help people with navigating. The English version of the site describes the system as a "door-to-door Journey Planner that gives You advice on the best public transport connection to your destination within the Helsinki region". Clever, eh? :)

And the route planner works as the buses run on schedule.

Though it has given me on a few occasions as the best route to home from work is to walk, but frequently at 5 min intervals... some crazy holiday overtime that was...

"He said he'd been doing drugs for 30 years, most of his friends from the 1970s were dead now. What struck me was he said he'd never for one night had to sleep outdoors."

Maybe if drugs didn't cost insane amounts, he'd have money to get his own place rather than relying on welfare?

Maybe if he didn't do drugs...

Actually, there are plenty who people who don't own a car and don't want to own a car. I'm one of them. In urban envinronment, it is simply useless. It uses a lot of money, destroys the envinronment and doesn't really save time. Busses and a bike are all you really need. If you are going to another town, you can take a train.

I could afford a pretty good car if I wanted to. Now I can use the money to other things, that give it better quality of life than having a car.

There are homeless people in Finland. Like someone said before, you just need to go to the right places. I'm not personally offended but I feel this article was a bit insulting to many poor and homeless people, as if their life is cool with the welfare and all that. You can find lots of folks there (eastern helsinki) who can't remember if they were alcoholics first and lost their jobs because of it, or became alcoholics because they lost their jobs. Or just both.

I do realize that when comparing to the masses of homeless beggars in various big US cities, you can't find it in here in such magnitude. But there are lots of homeless people, lots of people depend on church food hand outs, it's true that prolly none of them die of hunger but it's suffering for many people none of the less. Like said, you just need to look in the right places. If you guys think poor Finns are the ones who are on welfare and get 240 for rent, 500 on top of that, reality check is needed. Those are just unemployed. The truly poor are not living in there. And homeless people rather stick together, so they can be more safe. Just like in the Kaurismäki movie. It's fantasy, but it's not totally fiction.

While I feel the situation of truly poor and homeless people in here is much much better than in most countries, at the same time I feel this article was an insult. You don't get to know real Finland in few weeks. If you learned anything, it should be that the humbleness leads to understating things. Combined with interest in how we are percieved (give good image), and you get the more real picture.

I think there are homeless people in Finland. I remember watching a documentary in which they interviewed a homeless guy. He said it took 15 years to get used to the cold winters. Also, I believe most homeless in Finland are homeless because they choose to be homeless. Some can't abide by even the most basic rules and as a result they get kicked out of their government assigned apartment.

To non-smoking commuter,

After living in California for 4 years I actually think Finland is quite a smokey place. Although smoking is prohibited in public buildings and busses etc. I find it quite unbelievable that the government can't get the smoking ban into a law in bars and restaurants.

There are many countries in Europe who have joined this wise movement. Second-hand smoking is VERY bad for your health and I can only feel sorry when I think about the kids eating in restaurants having to inhale all that smoke. And please, don't say there are areas for smokers and non-smokers. I am yet to find a restaurant in Finland where the smoke doesn't linger into all areas.

Another comment to Hank W.
I don't know where you got your info about having to work and live in Finland for a certain amount of time before getting back to the social security system, but I have quite a different info.

I know of people who after living outside Finland for over 10 years suddenly decide to come back (maybe because they are pregnant and like to receive the good care of Finnish hospitals ??). I know this person didn't have to do anything but show up and the Finnish government paid everything: the hospital costs, a new apartment for her and the newborn, daily expenses.

We have a great social security system in Finland, in some respect, I think too good.

Yes, getting unemployment is very nice. Having received my miserable student grant for so long, getting on the dole would really boost my finances.

I think one problem with the safety net here is that it has only been slowly reduced and bits and pieces cut here and there. Instead a complete reform should instead be done, with things rationalized. I think they should just have one fixed amount to give to everyone who can't make it on their own, that would really reduce the bureocracy that is really very heavy. I know this, as my girlfriend works for social security.

Lets us forget that taking care of basic needs of longtime unemployed in Finland costs far less than farm subsidies. A farmer doing nothing can get ten times more money per month. Simply owning some land that might be used for agriculture will qive you some money, because government pays you for not over-producing some crops.

>In the USA there were some frail 80+ old ladies and men working in the McD... in Finland its 16-year olds...

The 80 plus year olds work in order to compensate for their skyrocketing health care costs. I believe medicare covers only 60-70 percent of costs. Also, 15+ percent of the elderly live below the poverty line in the U.S.

>And in this country there are Mexicans pouring across the border. Last year in Atlanta Georgia alone -- according to a report on MSNBC -- there were 90,000 illegal immigrants from Mexico to that ONE CITY alone.

I already feel like a foreigner in my own country. There **has** to be some form of stabilization as resources are dwindling by the day. Increased competition leads to extremism and a lack of empathy for fellow human beings. I do not see numbers beign reduced in the U.S with its penchance for cheap labour and influence of corporate lobby. In fact the National Association of Restaurants calls for **more** immigration and pours in millions of dollars to presedential campaigns. Who suffers? You and I.

Sunny, I get my information off htp://www.kela.fi - it is true some benefits are available more or less immediately; but some benefits require a residence (like student aid) and the law changed a few years back regarding the residency and dropping off the social security. I have family abroad and have had them battle with kela so I also have "other information". The system is so complicated I don't think even by reading through the website helps a whole lot.

"The photos attached to this article show just about everyone smoking. Is smoking in Finland as bad as most of Europe?"

Yes it is and is worsened by the fact that most Finns live in apartment houses. In worse areas there is smoke inside as well. The houses before 80s, most of them, do not have adequate ventilation so if your neighbors smoke you smoke as well.

"Lets us forget that taking care of basic needs of longtime unemployed in Finland costs far less than farm subsidies."

Or all the company subsidies that are wasted. They get them with connections and put into their own pockets. The farm subsidies are a lot more than other companies get but still the amount of money wasted in them as well is astonishing.

"Also, 15+ percent of the elderly live below the poverty line in the U.S."

The poverty line is the U.S. is much higher than in Europe so there probably is more poverty in Europe.

"I agree that being down and out in U.S. is worse than in Finland. I think the cost of health care makes a big difference."

There is still less people down if the unemployment really is about five percent only. Are there homeless in small towns too like in Finland there often is or only in big cities ?

"Also, I believe most homeless in Finland are homeless because they choose to be homeless. Some can't abide by even the most basic rules and as a result they get kicked out of their government assigned apartment."

Government does not assign apartments. Homeless are homeless because they cannot afford to rent one. It costs between 300 and 1500 to rent one (small towns to helsinki, most common is to have to pay one month or rent in advance, in helsinki two) and they simply do not have the money to rent one.

It may feel like small money to you, what is needed to rent an apartment, but it is not small money to all.

Now, if the social office likes you, they will give you the money to rent an apartment. If not, then you are homeless. There is nothing you can do to make the social office like you. It depends on the person there. Some get rent plus lots money each month. Some get nothing.

To whatssogreataboutFinland:

Funny, having lived practically my whole life in different parts of the Helsinki region (both east and west) I haven't stumbeled upon these homeless people. Now I know from tv that a couple of people live outside through the year, but it is because they choose not to live in homeless shelters. They have a personal disliking of such places or something. But there is not room for many, as the city is so sterile and cold during the winter months - it is virtually impossible to live outside.

Homeless people - yes. Many - no. Without shelter - half a douzen volunteers.

"I haven't stumbeled upon these homeless people"

Your neigbors must have called the police every time someone broke into your staircase or slept in the trash cans.

"but it is because they choose not to live in homeless shelters. They have a personal disliking of such places or something."

They do not like to fight ?
There are towns with no shelters.
Many purposedly do crime to get themselves into prison for the winters. Some are unable to do crime and they are the ones who are worst off.

"virtually impossible to live outside"

Every year people die outside.

The amount of old people dying because of cold weather is huge because of respiratory diseases etc. as well although much less than in Britain where they cannot afford to heat their apartments.

"they should just have one fixed amount to give to everyone who can't make it on their own, that would really reduce the bureocracy that is really very heavy. I know this, as my girlfriend works for social security."

Of the money that the government gives to "social security" 95 percent or more goes to the bureaucracy and less than half of the rest is handed out. All kinds of programs that claim to help, help only the criminals who run the programs.

It is not against the law to beg in Finland, but in most cases begging is prohibited by the city/county regulations. Basicly it's the same thing.

if you rent a flat, say 500 euros; you need 2 months deposit + 1 month prepaid so thats 1500 up front.

Everybody in Finland has the opportunity of a shelter. Nobody is left outside to freeze. To live in the forests is always a personal choice often due extreme antisocialism.

And no, smoking is not as common in Finland as in Central Europe. Less and less nowadays in fact. I think that it is just that when looking for picturesque representatives of the working class or unemployed, the smokers make more poignant photos.

"And no, smoking is not as common in Finland as in Central Europe."

Finland has the lowest tobacco consumption in a World Health Organization's survey of 48 countries.

TK, thank you for your correction, I got the quotation second-hand from the local free distribution paper Turkulainen. I was a little baffled as to why VTT would carry out this research. So it was VATT.

http://www.vatt.fi/english/julkaisut/tutkimus.asp?id=580

As for the smoking issue. I think my workplace is a fairly average office of 20 academics, and of these two are smokers who go out to smoke a few times during the day. My guess is that the complete bar smoking ban will be reality in Finland by the end of 2006.

My experience, living in the heart of Turku, is that lingering street dust (because icy streets are heavily salted and "sanded" for 6 months of the year), pollution from cars and pollen from trees and grass are the factors that deteriorate the general air quality, not smoking.

My experience is also that the problem with alcoholics in the streets gets worse as the weather warms up. After weeks of having temperatures 70-80 Fahrenheits it gets hard to walk 50 meters along the yacht-lined and otherwise tidy Aura river without stumbling upon an inebriated person. Early summer this year has been exceptionally cold so the reporters are not getting a full picture.

Of course you would find smoking people in (not) workingclass bars. Generally there is much less smokers than before. When I was in lukio, about 1/3 of students smoked. Now that my younger brother goes to same school, only a handful of students smoke.

every year people die outside of being homeless? where are you getting that 'fact'? because it's not true, it's not in the news. it's not in the papers and it's not in the morgue.

usually people coming to sleep in the paper-recycling cans(cleaner than trashcans) or to stairways are just drunks, who do have a home somewhere(could be in another town or whatever, just need to wait till morning for the bus). this is nothing like being stuck out under paris bridges and fighting the rare freeze to death.

even if a person doesn't seek a shelter, usually he ends up in one anyways. this is worse now that the mental problems don't have such a good budget for them anymore(really, if you're homeless in finland you usually do have mental problems), but still, you usually start making enough noise to get somewhere when you notice that it really is too cold to get by(and actually, just shutting the door from someone trying to get inside from certain freezing death would be a criminal offence - hell, just seeing someone lying in the snow and walking by without doing anything would be).

"My experience is also that the problem with alcoholics in the streets gets worse as the weather warms up. After weeks of having temperatures 70-80 Fahrenheits it gets hard to walk 50 meters along the yacht-lined and otherwise tidy Aura river without stumbling upon an inebriated person."

I would like to point out that most people are happy about the summer and really are a lot more positive. The summer people (the same as the winter people, of course) are totally different from the winter people. They are not related in the least.

"My experience, living in the heart of Turku, is that lingering street dust (because icy streets are heavily salted and "sanded" for 6 months of the year), pollution from cars and pollen from trees and grass are the factors that deteriorate the general air quality, not smoking."

There are people with asthma to whom the cold is the worst and others to whom the cigarette smoke is the worst. It varies. To all the cigarette smoke is still bad and worsens the effect of the cold. And the street dust.

"this is worse now that the mental problems don't have such a good budget for them anymore(really, if you're homeless in finland you usually do have mental problems"

Not true at all. People who have mental problems, who claim to have mental problems in order to get drugs or the social office decides have such are put into housing and none of them are homeless in the sense that they are inside. They are inside all of the day, too. They might like to be outside but that is not an option.

Nowadays in lots of towns all of the unemployed have to visit a social worker as well. Often they want you to visit a psychologist and many do not realize it is not a must. So they go and the psychologist makes something up and another unemployed is off the statistics as she or he has been branded as a nutcase.

"every year people die outside of being homeless? where are you getting that 'fact'? because it's not true, it's not in the news. it's not in the papers and it's not in the morgue."

Seems to be clear who has mental problems. Usually a good sign of such is the tendency to talk about others having such.

Jaque from Illinois, the reason you see me smoking in one of the pictures is that I had spent a long time in a non-smoking room before Julian shot that picture. Generally smokers are almost an endangered species here but unlike some endangered animals and plants, not protected by anybody. Having smoked for 36 years I can tell you that I do not go on with the filthy habbit just to intimidate non-smokers but because I have a very strong nicotine addiction.

""And no, smoking is not as common in Finland as in Central Europe."

Finland has the lowest tobacco consumption in a World Health Organization's survey of 48 countries."

Was that something they asked people or something they counted somehow ? I mean, everyone I know smokes.

"Also internal mobility is quite restricted."

Not really. The problem is finding the job, not getting there if you find one.
You can rent a flat immediately anywhere in Finland if you can find the job. Given that you can afford it or the social office pays for it. If you already have a job, they usually will.

What is hard, is to find work. If there comes one new working place available in a town of 50000 every week and there is 25 percent of people out of work, it is nearly impossible to get work.

If a new place comes available farther, the employer usually does not even look at applications that come from other towns.
Lots of students, btw, are too stupid to understand that and instead of moving to Helsinki they try to find work elsewhere.

"I have family abroad and have had them battle with kela so I also have "other information". The system is so complicated I don't think even by reading through the website helps a whole lot."

A very sensible thing to do would be to change the other official language of Finland from Swedish to English. That would cause all foreigners to be able to understand the forms etc.

"Was that something they asked people or something they counted somehow ? I mean, everyone I know smokes."

Well, to counter that none of my immediate family smoke, most of my relatives don't smoke and very few of my friends smoke.

"Lots of students, btw, are too stupid to understand that and instead of moving to Helsinki they try to find work elsewhere."

Maybe these students are studying in a school that, in fact, is not situated in Helsinki.

"It showed that he receives nearly $500 a month and a rent supplement of $240. He can go on receiving this indefinitely."

Not so for the younger unemployed. It will most probably happen they "find" work with no pay except the benefits for you in some distant place or crappy job that you decide not to take anymore and you end up in the social office's mercy instead. After a while (a year or two) of being out of work they start to have "meetings" with you and two persons, a social worker and employment officer once a week. Good job for them but not fun for the unemployed.

No, they should not change the second national language from Swedish to English. They should ensure that the same information should be freely available in Finnish, Swedish, and English. I think it is a wonderful thing that we recognize a 6% population minority's language and put it at an equal legal status as the majority's language. I could never see that happening with the States and Spanish. (Of course the history of the minority ethnic groups and the host country is very different in Finland and the US!) Well, if I remember correctly, the US doesn't even have an official language, so it's a moot point.

We must not forget more positive scenes of the Finnish Unemployment situation. Intead of bowing to the american style ratrace rules (introduced by Nokia during 90's) this modern day Antti Rokka showed the world what the Finnish Sisu is all about:
http://koti.welho.com/tnoko/Timo_Noko.htm

"They should ensure that the same information should be freely available in Finnish, Swedish, and English. I think it is a wonderful thing that we recognize a 6% population minority's language and put it at an equal legal status as the majority's language."

Why not Sami, Roma etc. etc. minority languages as well then?

Finnish and Swedish are official languages in Finland.

English is official in US. Spanish is also a language spoken in US. Why isn't Spanish official?

"Spanish is also a language spoken in US. Why isn't Spanish official?"
Americans are not stupid. And is English official ? Did anyone be nazi enough to make one language official ?

There are two big lies that all believe.
One is the two-language country. Reality is that Finland is a occupied country. Swedes took over in the 60s using psychological warfare.
Finns are too simple to have noticed that. The army does not teach that. The schools are no better.

Another is the welfare state. Americans have a lot more of it. They do not have to kill themselves if things go bad.

"Why not Sami, Roma etc. etc. minority languages as well then?"

They have no money to bribe the politicians with. (Not directly in money but with influence it brings.)

About homeless people (in Helsinki) there are shelters for the homeless, but a person cannot get in there he/she is drunk. Most of the shelters are for men. (the usual chain of events is: lost a job, wife left, lost the apartment, lots of booze)

That is why there are homeless people also in streets at wintertime, they are not able to be sober, or they do not like the shelters, because there is no privacy.

I know 2 shelters, one for salvation army in Kallio, and another in Punavuori (the classier part of Helsinki). If you want to talk to homeless guys, you can find them waiting outside to sober up to get inside.

"the usual chain of events is: heavy drinking -> fired from the job, even heavier drinking -> wife leaves, insanely heavy drinking -> kicked out of the apartment, non-stop drinking -> violent death or suicide"

Corrected ;-)

Dellinger wrote:
>>Yes, getting unemployment is very nice. Having received my miserable student grant for so long, getting on the dole would really boost my finances.

Something sounds wrong here? You mean the govt. paid for you to be a student and then you went right into govt.-financed dole money?

When does actual work come in?

I've been told by someone who has worked in a homeless shelter in Helsinki that help is mostly refused because drinking and drunkenness is not allowed in the shelter. They are too attached to the bottle. Alcoholism is a fairly big problem. Alcohol consumption might not be the highest in Europe but a lot of people do not know HOW to drink. It's not too easy to become so down and out here that you have no home. Homelessness is very rare and mostly due to substance abuse, especially alcohol.

It takes a lot of time and effort to totally drop out from the Finnish welfare system. Nobody is going to drag you from the streets if you are already there. In order to receive unemployment benefits or other fruits of our social security system you must have some iniative left.

I find it more worrying that hard working people with real vocational or university degrees have hard time finding work in Finland. And those people don't even get that job at Mc Donalds or at the local grocery store because the employers see them as "over-educated".

And unemployment is stigmatized in Finland aswell. If you are unemployd you can only blame yourself even if the reason is that some international company bought the company you worked for and moved the whole business to Asia... And to top all this, I find Finns very work-orientated people and what can you talk about if you can't talk about your work?

>Another is the welfare state. Americans have a lot more of it.

hah?

>They do not have to kill themselves if things go bad.

True, they kill others.

>The poverty line is the U.S. is much higher than in Europe so there probably is more poverty in Europe.

The poverty line in the u.s. was calculated in the 1960's - hasn't changed since then. So the 15 percent is actually an undercount.

Saame (Sami, or Lappish) is also recognized by the government. In Lapland, Saame people can get legal counsel and government services in their own language. Also, TV news etc. is in Saame there. It's a bit confusing how the Saame "nation" works since the people inhabit an area that spans three countries (Norway, Sweden, and Finland) and there's a bit of cooperation and laissez-faire attitudes from the central governments about the Saame people.

Also, it's Finnish law that children must receive some instruction about their native language (grammar, structure, etc.) - so even if you come from Timbuktu, they'll find out what you spoke there and get you a teacher. Not terribly economical, but I'd say that's more than fair. So, yes, if you are Roma and attend Finnish public school, you'll get instruction on Roma.

I had to say, but we have too much money to spend on unployed people, so they don't want to go a good work. I was unployed several years and I can say, no-money-no-worry. Unployed man can get more than 450€/M, so we have some alcohol problems... I promise thar Finland is the beautyful place and we have so much water that you guys can't ever understand =)

P.S; I only write finnish, so please for give me my mistakes

The Finnish TV movie RAID(a sequel to the mini tv series of the same name)was shown here in Silver Spring,Md. at the American Film Institute last Sat. and Sunday. The director and the star were in attendance. It has been a big hit here in Washington D.C.
It is surely a masterpiece. I was wondering what Finnish people think of it. And others also. It made me want to visit Finland as a tourist and very soon too.
These articles by Robert Kaiser are good but too general in tone. They read like something in a textbook.

Sunny, I'm not sure if you have realized this, but there are currently heavy regulation on smoking in bars & restaurants. Smoking is not allowed on bar counters and all bars/restaurants allowing smoking MUST have adequate air conditioning/filtering system. In restaurants the areas for smokers and non-smokers are separated and any play areas for children are placed on the non-smoking ground. The ventilating system is operated in these restaurants and what I have noticed, they work pretty well.

Eating out with the whole family is not as common as in many other countries. Eating out is still quite expensive and families tend to cook at home. The restaurants that are specifically targeted at families or young people are always smoke-free. It is possible to choose a smoke-free restaurant if dining out with children. Personally I would like to see all bars, restaurants etc. ban smoking. What I am happy for is that I know that my child will grow in a very clean environment and is able to breathe very clean air compared to e.g. many Central European cities.

"The Finnish TV movie RAID(a sequel to the mini tv series of the same name)was shown here in Silver Spring,Md. at the American Film Institute last Sat. and Sunday. The director and the star were in attendance. It has been a big hit here in Washington D.C.
It is surely a masterpiece. I was wondering what Finnish people think of it. And others also. It made me want to visit Finland as a tourist and very soon too.
These articles by Robert Kaiser are good but too general in tone. They read like something in a textbook"

It´s great series and it was big hit in here. Movie was also good but not as good than series.
Mini-serie and movie was also big dvd-hit in here.

Dear non-smoking commuter,

I have been/lived in Finland less than a year ago, so I do know about the non-smoking ban at the bar counter. But, I still argue, that the restaurants don't have good enough ventilation system. Even the sosiaali- ja terveysministeri (minister for the social and health issues), what-ever-her-name-is, acknowledged this. She said most restaurants have not done enough to address the problem. Maybe the years in smoke-free california has done a trick for my nose, but after a meal in a restaurant in Finland, I feel like I've smoked a pack of cigarettes.

I don't think the issue should be stressed only in the restaurants that are geared towards families and children. I don't want to inhale smoke either! And you mentioned that kids' play areas are smoke free (I certainly hope so!). Do the kids eat at these areas too?

Sorry, I just feel this thing is so important for the sake of all our health it shouldn't be so hard. Finnish people normally are so pro-healthy. Why are there so many people fighting this thing?? Second hand smoke can kill you and yet you can do it freely in lots of places where other people cannot avoid it. I want to eat in a restaurant every now and then and I don't think I should put my health in danger in doing so.

The current non-smoking fascism has gone too far. People here want to prohibit smoking even in the balcony of your own home. A bar is not a bar without tobacco smell, and there are no laws prohibiting to set up bars where you can't smoke. If people can't smoke in bars, they'll drink at home, and that's not something the government wants.

It is not true that any citizen of the EU can come to Finland and claim social benefits. When I came to Finland in early 1999 from Holland, I was allowed to look for work here for three months. If I didn't succeed, I would have had to negotiate the extension of my residence permit to even continue looking for a job while living here.

During this time, I was not eligable to receive any state support, not from Finland, not from Holland.

When it comes to smoking, I would like to mention that most rental contracts state 'no smoking allowed' as a condition to rent the place, and smokers do go outside with -20 degrees to smoke. I find this quite amazing.

About language:
I wonder the percentage of finnish people that speak english, is it 80%?.

"The current non-smoking fascism has gone too far. People here want to prohibit smoking even in the balcony of your own home."

Fascism was and is about killing just as cigarettes are.

"I wonder the percentage of finnish people that speak english, is it 80%?."

Those who are good enough: maybe 5 percent. Those who understand it: maybe 20 percent.
Of people under 30, maybe 40 percent understand it enough to speak some.

"Everybody in Finland has the opportunity of a shelter. Nobody is left outside to freeze. To live in the forests is always a personal choice often due extreme antisocialism."

Simply not true.

"It takes a lot of time and effort to totally drop out from the Finnish welfare system."

All that you need is a social office worker who does not like you or has pms and you are out.

"That is why there are homeless people also in streets at wintertime, they are not able to be sober, or they do not like the shelters, because there is no privacy."

There also are homeless who do not drink at all.

"And unemployment is stigmatized in Finland aswell. If you are unemployd you can only blame yourself even if the reason is that some international company"

Some never even get the first job.

""the usual chain of events is: heavy drinking -> fired from the job, even heavier drinking -> wife leaves, insanely heavy drinking -> kicked out of the apartment, non-stop drinking -> violent death or suicide"

Corrected ;-)"

That is only a stereotype.

Homeless are varied as other people are. All different. And most of the time one has no say in becoming homeless as the social office worker is the one who makes the decision of that.

"When I came to Finland in early 1999 from Holland, I was allowed to look for work here for three months. If I didn't succeed, I would have had to negotiate the extension of my residence permit to even continue looking for a job while living here."

That's strange. Are you an EU citizen? I moved from Finland to the UK before -99 and no one ever asked me to fill in any forms. As far as I know, EU citizens don't need permits to stay in other EU countries.

About the non-smoking fascism.
You are not allowed to go to a restaurant or a bar with a gun and start shooting around. But you are allowed to smoke. Both actions kill people. Why is the other one allowed to happen? Because it is not instand death but slow and painful and away from the public eyes. Doens't make it any more acceptable, I think.

To say that smoking is just a part of bar culture and should be allowed, is like saying raping a women is just what some men has to do to feel menly. Are we really that barbarian?

"I moved from Finland to the UK before -99 and no one ever asked me to fill in any forms. As far as I know, EU citizens don't need permits to stay in other EU countries."

As far as I can tell you might be in trouble. See now, as a priciple people in the UK and Ireland live like "cows in the pasture" as the Finns say. Now of course this is incorrect, as every cow is meticulously put in a database in ireland and the UK because of mad EU cow rules, whereas the people are not. Compared to the Finnish system where your "henkilötunnus" and ID card connect you to a central database this is a "big brother system". Depending on the various EU country there are certain rules on how to and where to register. In Finland you used to apply for a residence permit - which was automagically granted - providing if you fulfilled certain requirements - like having a job, being married to a Finnish Citizen, studying etc. The law changed, you now *register* your residence, but as any Finnish Resident (not resident) you are obliged to register your address with the local magistrate within two weeks of your move. So yes you need to fill in forms.

Sunny: Today Aamulehti reported that members of the parliament are for making the legislation stricter. 137 answered the questionnaire sent and 101 of those said that all restaurants should be smoke-free. There is no sense in attacking the current situation in Finland, since things have RAPIDLY changed during the last couple of years and more changes lie ahead.

Everybody knows that second-hand smoking is a health risk. There is no ignorance on that matter and this is why the new restrictions on smoking have been set up. Keep in mind that advertising smoking/cigarettes etc. is not allowed.

It is true that some European countries have taken a stricter attitude towards smoking in restaurants, but it is quite silly to attack a country just because it is proceeding a bit slower. Majority of European countries are nowhere near Finland's restrictions and demands.

Yes, families with small children usually dine in the non-smoking section or "vote with their feet" and choose a non-smoking restaurant.

""When I came to Finland in early 1999 from Holland, I was allowed to look for work here for three months. If I didn't succeed, I would have had to negotiate the extension of my residence permit to even continue looking for a job while living here."

That's strange. Are you an EU citizen? I moved from Finland to the UK before -99 and no one ever asked me to fill in any forms. As far as I know, EU citizens don't need permits to stay in other EU countries.""

They get your details from banks etc. anyhow.

In Finland you must go to the officials, otherwise would be harder to make up bad stuff about you to the state computers, especially if you ever have to visit a social office, the amount of crap they want to tell other state officials is enormous. Same in several other countries.

"No wonder many unemployed can not resist the temptation og moonlighting."

Problem is that there is not much moonlighting available.

I would go immediately to one of those jobs but there are such only for people who have contacts (=usually a job already and then they do a bit extra) and most of them are located in helsinki and turku.

"Yes, families with small children usually dine in the non-smoking section or "vote with their feet" and choose a non-smoking restaurant."

Thank God for McDonalds ;)

Most Finns do not go to restaurants or pubs at all except maybe once a year after the office christmas party. Before Christmas the pubs are full for a month or so. Then in January they are empty. Only when the summer comes out and it is warmer some visit them. Mostly men. Not too many women in pubs usually.
Couples and even single women drink inside their houses instead of going "out" which is rather sad.

Down and out: Those out of work with no other income (honest or otherwise) do not have money to sit in pubs. They also do not like those who in state-financed unemployed's clubs demand more and more unpaid work for the unemployed.

How the Finnish government likes the unemployed: they do not, they themselves have high pay and could not care less about the less fortunate: there is a guy who is paid only talk directly to say what the politicians really think, Sailas:
"Go pick berries in the forests!"
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/sfnet.keskustelu.politiikka/browse_thread/thread/ba7135156bd463fa/b548cbb0e0453509#b548cbb0e0453509
and
http://keskustelu.suomi24.fi/show.fcgi?category=121&conference=4500000000000021&posting=22000000009964312
(for blueberries - if that is mustikka in english- , they pay 1 euro/ 1kg, well, if you happen to live near them, it is possinble, but to get near them if you do not, costs more than what you will get there by picking them)

Also in Finland, basic necessities such as food and clothes are expensive compared to other countries, so things the not-well-off need cost lots. Example: in june I bought the cheapest t-shirts, which broke after one wash, I could find: 8 euros for one (end of july, maybe 2.50 on sale); a take-away pizza costs 6-7 euros average, big mac+cola maybe 5 (do not know), usual kind of bread in a supermarket, 500 grams, usually 1.69 euros etc. (Or, as all out of work are drunks who should be killed, as the official state line goes, a bottle of wine about 5 euros in the state monopoly (same for glass in a usual pub). Btw, Which means, all your income goes to booze if you are a drunk, meaning you will be in debt and will end working.)

It would of course would have been good to mention that the price given is for the _cheapest_ wine there is. Good wine costs more. Though not as much more - some good wines are the same price as in countries with less alcohol taxes. It is only poor people's drinking that needs to be taxed a lot (the monopoly sets the prices)

Politicians like to claim there is huge demand for workers and the finnish media, none of it the standard of 'the liberal media', tends to tell what the politicians lie (that might be the reason for the over-positiveness of these articles, maybe they used some 'helper' from finnish media, the openly communist tiedonantaja might have told of the bad sides, as well, unlike the social-democrat or right-wing party-controlled medias.
http://www.tiedonantaja.fi
leftist and somewhat feminist kansan uutiset also has good reporters.
http://www.kansanuutiset.fi/

Reality is quite different to the stories of the overwhelming majority of the finnish media though: (alas, in finnish)
http://groups.google.fi/group/sfnet.keskustelu.politiikka/browse_frm/thread/80440b1e5c0f6e0f/ef5c3b4c1e3c09b3?tvc=1&hl=fi#ef5c3b4c1e3c09b3

(All msgs of given author:)
http://groups.google.fi/groups?enc_author=DSJIFhQAAABK8iUVav3PovZCJtf9xXVxOPANdqfI6prRsqjc7uCt1A&hl=fi

Thrash cans are located in locked places in not-good areas so homeless or drunks could not sleep in them. Oh, what a caring place Finland is.

yes sure.
but.
is it not the same elsewhere too ?
kill the poor,
the thing is

(many years ago someone tried to tell otherwise 'kill the rich'
was some band and said)

The smoking in balcony (at the apartment building) is utterly annoying! I have a neighbour who smokes something like 40 times per day (and night) at his balcony and the smoke and smell comes right into my apartment. I have told him to stop it but he seems to think that saving his own apartment from cigarette smoke is more important that keeping up good neighbour relations. I have actually seriously thought about burning car tires on the balcony to give him something back for a change. If you smoke then smoke INSIDE your own apartment and not pollute your neighbours who do NOT smoke!
Huh, i had to get that out of my system.

'"I wonder the percentage of finnish people that speak english, is it 80%?."

Those who are good enough: maybe 5 percent. Those who understand it: maybe 20 percent.
Of people under 30, maybe 40 percent understand it enough to speak some.'

Are those figures official? The people I've met have been an exeption then. I'm not quite sure when the most common "first foreign language after Swedish" (in comprehensive schools) changed from German to English, but mostly the people I know of who took german are in their fifties, and even they mostly speak some. The non-dubbed TV helps here?
Younger ones, even the ones hating languages show surprising ability after a pint or two and surprising amount speak very, VERY fluently. I've lived here in Finland for 8 years (I'm originally from Italy) and still don't know the language (I'm sorry but it's awfully difficult! :) and at least I have never had any problems here since absolutely EVERYBODY seems to speak English!

By the way I love the articles and the discussion. A shame I did not notice this before now!

absolutely EVERYBODY seems to speak English!
-
after pints ? not all go to pubs. those with less money do not go to them. in finland, quite a small % of people go to pubs (too much taxes so they have to drink at home)

"Finland is prosperous, and abject poverty is essentially nonexistent here. This does not mean, however, that everyone is happy or well-situated in life. There are people out of work (about 10 percent of the workforce) and people employed in jobs they consider beneath their skills and education. There are, of course, Finns who drink too much, who suffer from mental illnesses, who have family crises and economic disasters."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050923/ap_on_re_us/hurricanes_more_poor;_ylt=AlZZaMdaweZIDgiEsjLVXf2s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MjBwMWtkBHNlYwM3MTg-

If you compare the american "poor" to Finnish poor - the american "poor" on TV at least seem to live in their own houses, have cars. Finnish poor live in their rented small flats, have no cars. (You can be below poverty line and have a car but personally I would not call such poor.)
Some of the towns' rentable flats can be quite bad places. Some of the poor have to rent from private sector, so live usually in smaller flats, not in good shape.
As there is no personal bankruptcy in Finland, like there is in England, for example, the poor will also stay poor. After a couple of years' unemployment people usually have debts that they will not be able to pay. In smaller towns there is no work available either (in Helsinki there is, the poor in Helsinki often can find work where they pay no tax)

PERKELE

by the way, there is welfare in the US. Yes, you can get free medical care, free lots of things.. but in the US, being on welfare is something to be ASHAMED of. In Finland.. that's just life, everyone is on welfare!

They're proud that they move out of their hosue when they're 18, they think they're independant.. but they're just going straight to welfare.

You say in Finland everyone is on welfare: Yes it is true but the rich get much more of it than the poor.

There is a lot more unemployment in Finland and no minimum wage means people I know work for as little as 1.50 euros an hour and collect benefits at the same time as they are working for a lousy wage in physically demanding works.

Intresting point from "EU versus USA" release made by a swedish institute www.timbro.com

---cut---
Poverty is a highly relative concept. As we saw in the preceding section, for example,
40 per cent of all Swedish households would rank among low-income households in the
USA, and an even greater number in the poorer European countries would be classed as
low income earnings by the American definition. In an affluent economy, in other words,
it is not unlikely that those perceived as poor in an international perspective are relatively
well off.

--end of cut---

Intresting point from "EU versus USA" release made by a swedish institute www.timbro.com

---cut---
Poverty is a highly relative concept. As we saw in the preceding section, for example,
40 per cent of all Swedish households would rank among low-income households in the
USA, and an even greater number in the poorer European countries would be classed as
low income earnings by the American definition. In an affluent economy, in other words,
it is not unlikely that those perceived as poor in an international perspective are relatively
well off.

--end of cut---

Intresting point from "EU versus USA" release made by a swedish institute www.timbro.com

---cut---
Poverty is a highly relative concept. As we saw in the preceding section, for example,
40 per cent of all Swedish households would rank among low-income households in the
USA, and an even greater number in the poorer European countries would be classed as
low income earnings by the American definition. In an affluent economy, in other words,
it is not unlikely that those perceived as poor in an international perspective are relatively
well off.

--end of cut---

There is money for various things, but not housing for the poor: (the amount of homeless is rising in finland, the breadlines are getting longer as well)

http://keskustelu.suomi24.fi/show.fcgi?category=115&conference=683&posting=22000000011269677

tunnel, road beneath helsinki 274 million euros

application to be european city of culture (ha!) in jyväskylä, 15 million euros
http://keskustelu.suomi24.fi/show.fcgi?category=115&conference=1500000000000155&posting=22000000011263611

quick railroad between parts of town (like subway but not underground) in tampere, more than 250 million euros
http://keskustelu.suomi24.fi/show.fcgi?category=115&conference=684&posting=22000000011269719

"but not housing for the poor: (the amount of homeless is rising in finland, the breadlines are getting longer as well"

Nice winterstorm today. Lots of snow in south, -20 celsius in the north.

http://www.vaahtokylpy.net/keskustelut/search.jsp?messageid=76564&gid=3&lid=1059241417
"Asunnottomuus Suomessa ohittanut englannin ! Upeeta toimintaa.

BBC:n mukaan englannissa ulkona nukkuu vain viitisensataa henkilöä. Siellä asuu 10x enemmän väkeä kuin Suomessa. "

"More homeless who sleep outside per capita in Finland than in England."

In EU, Finland is 2nd in people stealing from stores (after england) - probably the social state in finland is the worst in EU.

" Association of Unemployed People, a typically Finnish organization set up by private charities with government support "

They are well funded. If people got the money to themselves, instead of some governmental officials who get a nice job in such places (where the unemployed do not go), there would not be any homeless
or poor in the country.

Not only per capita. More people sleep outside in Finland than in England which has ten times the population.

In the same forum:

Typical for such places as the unemployed's place in the article is that they are off-limits for most. Same with youth houses (need to belong to a gang or something.)

Often the facilities are good - but people are not allowed to use them. For example there can be locked rooms full of computers that are only used an hour a week.

Same in some towns' libraries and some schools: lots of computers - yet people are not allowed to use them.

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