Isn't Miro a boy's name?

It says 'Mira' in the picture caption.

It's "Mira" on the image caption.

Look's like a boy.

Glad I didn't see any confederate flags in the picture gallery ;-)

Sure does look like a boy.

You're right, no confederate flags, even though I've always thought that they are popular among those who wear 1950s-style clothes. Which reminds me... wasn't Mr. Kaiser going to write about racism? Haven't seen that article yet.

I'm a graduate of Indiana University, and it's a huge pet peeve of native Bloomingtonians to say "University of Indiana" rather than the correct form, "Indiana University." Otherwise, this is a great series!

The confederate flag is associated with "rockabilly rebel" as in "matchbox" (british band) rather than anything else. So in USA you might get a little weird associations. Someone driving say a red Dodge with a confederate flag isn't making any racial statements - they've watched "Dukes of Hazzard". So please don't make assumptions as the culture what filters through gets different meanings and associations here. We also have KKK-markets. There isn't any association with a KKK market and a confederate flag.

The caption should obviously say "Miro". Miro is a boy's name and it's a boy in the pic. Once again a misspelled name, but it's nothing new. Almost every name in these articles is quite badly misspelled.

I don´t think so. Particularly Mr. Perkins has been careful with names.

Again, how much is the Confederate Flag a symbol of defiance, even in the US? A flag is what YOU make of it, nothing more, nothing less. I think personally that the discussion regarding the Confederate flag has been derailed by racial motives, when there are so many other issues linked to it as well.
Some people in America find even the Old Glory offending, so who's to say...

In response to Blabbermouth: A flag is more than what I make of it. It also signals the values and beliefs of the person who flies (or wears or whatever) the flag.

I think it's reasonable to argue that people who want to hang onto the Confederate flag as a symbol of their heritage are not necessarily racists. (Note that I said one could make that argument. Doesn't mean I'd believe it.)

But regardless of the views of the individual flag flyer, the Confederate flag is, in the U.S., a symbol of a social and economic system that not only condoned but profited from the systematic and cruel oppression of the people we now call African Americans for more than 200 years.

It's now nearly 150 years since the end of the Civil War. People who think the Confederate flag is important as a symbol of their heritage should take a look around and see whether they can't find something else to be proud of.

Parts of the South still lag the rest of the country (in income, educational achievement, multiple health indicators), but there are many positive trends. People should celebrate those and look for ways to further progress toward social and economic justice and to improve the quality of life for all rather than harking back to a period that really should not be romanticized.

Not about Finland, but, hey, sometimes a person has to say what she has to say.

This is supposed to be about old cars. Not flags. Forget the flags for a moment and talk about old cars.
Any country and people that likes old American cars is a country that appreciates style. And old American cars had style. They might not have run so good or been very reliable but they sure looked good. I had a 1956 red and white Chevy Bel Air convertible with red and white leather seats.White cloth top. It had red and white checkerboard spinner hub caps and cool fender skirts.
Now considered a collectors item.
Cool for cruising through the drive inns. Both food and motion picture drive inns of the 1950 and early 1960s.

Could be a girl with her hair pulled back. You'd think that Rob and Lucian got the gender right ("...and daughter...") since they saw him/her in flesh. The cute kid and the parents are bound to read these comments, so let's not question the gender too much ok?

As a kid I used to LOVE the look of these old American cars in the streets of Helsinki. They were called "Amerikan rauta" - translates to something like "America's iron" (iron as in metal not domestic!)

I would like to know what Finns think of the USA and American people. Culture,govt.,etc. Americans as individuals when they visit Finland. What do Finn think of them?

All Americans I have met are nice and friendly. Allways nice to meet and discuss with you.

Pardon my spelling, but I think there is a Finnish term for these folks who love classic American cars. In Swedish, they are called something like "ruggars" and in Finland its something like "ruukari."

When I've traveled in Finland as an American I felt I was treated really well. Of course, most of the people I had contact with were my relatives. I was taken from home to home with the same wonderful hospitality. Every home offered coffee and a few different kind of sweets and sometimes a whole meal. They were anxious to know what I thought of Finland. Now, being that they were my relatives, albiet somewhat distantly related (my family had left Finland between 1862 to as late as 1920), I look like a Finn, can recognize their food, and understand some basic Finnish words and have some knowledge of Finnish culture, perhaps it may be I was not so much thought of as an "American" but rather a "Finnish-American" or other kind of Finnish sub-type. They asked me a lot of questions about America, and it seemed they were under the impression every part of America was crime-ridden and dangerous and that life here was really hard. I live in Minnesota where the quality of life is actually quite good and some say our social programs are a bit too generous. In some way we're comparable to Finland, with our lake cottage culture and our value of social capital.

Some individuals are more individual than other individuals.

Its "raggari" from Swedish "raggare" - actually the "American car youth culture" came as a Swedish influence in the late 1960's early 1970's as many young people worked/had family in Sweden probably so it was a familiar thing. We also have a strong hot-rod VW beetle thing that was sparked by the Swedish but then took off - I have a cal-looker myself.
http://www.nullwave.net/hankypanky/isc17.jpg

"I would like to know what Finns think of the USA and American people. Culture,govt.,etc. Americans as individuals when they visit Finland. What do Finn think of them?"

I don't think that the govt of the US has many fans in the EU (does it anywhere?). I also don't like the way US corporations are influencing EU legislation and acting as they own the world (e.g. "Downloading is a crime" ads on MTV, even though it is not in Finland). However I try my best not to let such things affect on the way I treat individuals (of any nationality).

The word is "runkkari" spelled in british "wankers".

Very embrassaing to most finlanders -- almost like the estonian country&blues-scene to estonians.

Not a sign of defiance was it ever, but exactly the opposite, the sign of utter & indefinite submission -- cowboy-boots and all.

"and it seemed they were under the impression every part of America was crime-ridden and dangerous and that life here was really hard. I live in Minnesota where the quality of life is actually quite good and some say our social programs are a bit too generous. In some way we're comparable to Finland, with our lake cottage culture and our value of social capital."

Oh yes, "runkkari" is a word (meaning wanker..) but it is not to be used when talked about people enthusiastic about these cars from the 50´s. "Raggari" is the correct term, as Hank W already pointed out.

"and it seemed they were under the impression every part of America was crime-ridden and dangerous and that life here was really hard. I live in Minnesota where the quality of life is actually quite good and some say our social programs are a bit too generous. In some way we're comparable to Finland, with our lake cottage culture and our value of social capital."
(Oops. Let's try again.)

Finns often don't comprehend the cultural diversity of the U.S. We often think America is a monocultural country.

For example, in the early 1990's I shared a dorm room with a young American, who came from a Jesuit university in Massachusetts. Before I met her I thought that because she had been at a religious university, she must be a fundamentalist, a member of the Religious Right. (In the 1980's, Finnish media talked a lot about American fundamentalist Christians.)

On the other hand, there are Finns who think that people in cities like NYC or San Francisco represent the Average American.

To be totally honest with you, many Finns think that Americans are materialistic and too loud. Even stupid? BTW, this is not exactly my view, as I have the priviledge of having one very good American friend. But, I can't completely disagree with that stereotype either. Sorry :-(

This blog + Diary have been excellent!! I feel sad already thinking that it will all end tomorrow (...will it??)

I am a Finn living part time in the U.S and the biggest thing affecting my daily life there is abject poverty and homeless people. I think it is good they are so visible, as it is a fact there is a lot of poverty, but it is very hard to deal with sometimes when one is not used to seeing homeless people - hardly ever in Helsinki.

I find Americans generally very friendly and lovely to deal with on a day to day basis. Amazingly, I sometimes think they are the more distant ones, and harder to make friends with - which is usually the reputation Finns have. Sometimes it is a little tiresome to meet people for the third or fourth time and they still get confused - "aren't you from Germany?", or making lots of assumptions - like that I must be Catholic since I am a Finn (!!!) that are not based on any reality.

But Americans must be getting tired too of being treated rudely by people in other countries - especially Americans who didn't vote for the current admin. My American husband and I have been yelled at in London, Madrid and Paris for being Americans, which people assume I am, since we are speaking in American English.

Basically, I have just learned to look for nice, well-informed, tolerant, intelligent, open-minded people everywhere I go, and try to not label whole countries when I encounter people who are rude or ignorant.

"Even stupid?"

The word today is 'intellectually challenged'. And New Mexico is a foreign country.

Hank, you should know that Finns are not PC. ;)

Ah, when I lived in Finland as a little girl, I used to go watch these cars with my father and brother... My brother customizes VW Beetles and Harleys. Happy memories!

Having lived in the U.S. for 15 years, I have to agree that I find the average American somewhat distant and hard to know, really -there seems to always be a need to keep up appearances... Americans, on the whole, are also conservative and prudish, but I love their positive attitude and politeness. And they are so wonderfully casual!

Indeed, "InGoodAndBad", Americans should also note that Finns' don't necessarily adhere to US standards, were metric. (even in speech)

And a lot of words or sayings are directly translated from Finnish so one gets "politically incorrect" terminology whereas the "proper term" in Finnish is the same equivalent. Also the opposite. Say like "Russian" and "ryssä"... now how could a directly translating Anglophone necessarily know its a racial slur?

These impressions of America and Americans are very interesting. I'd like to hear from more Finns--opinions based on what they learn from the media, from American visitors to Finland, or from their visits to the U.S.

It's interesting, for instance, that previous writers have described us as friendly, casual, distant, and hard to know.

Of course, different writers have had different experiences, but I wonder if there is something else underlying these somewhat contradictory impressions.

Do you have the sense that Americans are superficially friendly but not genuinely easy to know? What does it mean to be "wonderfully casual"? And how does that connect w/ being conservative and prudish?

I look forward to your replies.

And, yes, I too will be sorry to see this project end--both because of the interesting stories Mr. Kaiser and Mr. Perkins have given us and because it's been interesting to read the comments in this blog.

"Sometimes it is a little tiresome to meet people for the third or fourth time and they still get confused - "aren't you from Germany?", or making lots of assumptions - like that I must be Catholic since I am a Finn (!!!) that are not based on any reality."

I've noticed this as well - not among those I know very well, but among everyone else. The do remember my first name, whereas I have a really bad memory regarding people's first names. But what's the deal with remembering first names, if you can't remember what people are doing in general? I guess it's so damn important to remember names and be superficially polite and friendly, even if you have no clue who the persons you talked to just a while ago actually were.

"These impressions of America and Americans are very interesting. I'd like to hear from more Finns--opinions based on what they learn from the media, from American visitors to Finland, or from their visits to the U.S."

I've been to the US four times. Every single time people have been incredibly polite and friendly, but I'm never sure if they're genuinely friendly. It's nice and encourages you to be nice as well, but you never know. I know that my closest friends there are frank and genuinely friendly because they're as direct and honest as you can be and they often mention that Finnish candor is something they value a lot. And they sure have given me hard time about being able to be direct (which I enjoy a lot)... then again, they're probably not the most usual Americans.

Finns hate double speak in general. You should be able to talk about things with the right terms and not feel offended because you chose not to be overly polite and PC. Simply put, Finns consider politically correctness to be BS, if it's taken to the extreme. You never know if someone is really interested in how you're doing today, or if they're just asking it to be polite. No-one expects you to say that "well, where to start... my past week has been miserable." Usually they reply "oh, that's too bad" and vanish asap.

Well...some topics seem to be taboos to Americans. Something that they've perhaps been brought up "not to discuss". If you step into these areas you can get an angry look from an American and a litany of well-rehearsed responses that aim to avoid the topic. Finns are more primitive. If they're not feeling shy, they are usually very outspoken and (as you may have gathered) easily "argue" with each other! I think that in this regard Americans have more polished social rules. (And most other cultures too.) But maybe I'm just blind to taboos that exist in Finland. ;)

I'm the one who wrote above that Americans are wonderfully casual... By this I mean that it is easy to strike up casual conversations and make small talk with Americans -as a very outgoing person, I enjoy this. Americans are also casual in their dress -which I do enjoy -but I do wish American eating habits were not quite so casual... I mean, do adults have to eat fries with their fingers when out in public?

However, on the whole, Americans are also hard to get to know on a deeper level -I think that this has to do with the fact that Americans are not very introspective and reflective, so they don't like to analyze their own feelings and motivations deeply... It is also hard for Americans to discuss their faults and shortcomings -which of course translates to keeping up appearances.

Distant Americans... For example, the majority of Americans find it odd that people would stop by unannounced -in Finland, if you show up at people's doorsteps, they invite you in and offer a cup of coffee... In the U.S., they chat with you for a while at the door and then cut the conversation short by saying something like "Well, I better get back to making dinner..." The phrase "stop by sometime" shouldn't be taken literally. (I have some funny stories about this from the International Students office at a university where I used to work.)

Conservative and prudish... Well, in the U.S., there are still arguments about abortion, sex education in schools, teaching evolutionary theory in schools, interracial dating (Bob Jones University!), etc. The list is endless...

As I wrote above, I love the politeness and positivity, though!

I love those old American cars, they are so beautiful and characteristic. There is a lot of good things in American culture and way of life.

Finnish-American girl here with more comments. I'm 36 years old and have been raised by Finnish-American parents who were raised by Finnish-American parents who were raised by Finnish parents. The vast majority of my large extended family is of Finnish ethnic origin. I grew up with a close-knit Finnish family amongst other Finnish and Scandinavian-Americans. It was a wonderful way to grow up but sometimes a little bit limited.

Having grown up this way and then moving to the big city of Minneapolis, I've found I've really had to adjust the social constructs of my world. When we went visiting friends and family, for example, it was considered polite, but not necessary to call ahead. Just pop in. There were always baked goods or something tucked away in the freezer for company. It did not matter what we were doing, we were ALWAYS happy to receive visits from company. I found that in Finland at least amongst the people I met in the north were much the same way. However, many Americans seem to find pop-in visits rude. I didn't know that until a friend once candidly told me that her husband gets a little offended when people stop by without calling first.

Another thing is the absolute candor and honesty sometimes needs to be curbed in mainstream American society. I've learned people don't always want to hear the truth. Once when a visitor selling insurance came to my mother's door he asked her how she was doing, she replied how she wasn't feeling so good and mentioned some other small misfortunes that occured that week. My sisters and I, who at the time were in our early teens, had to give mom a little lesson on ettiquette. "Mom, when people you don't know very well ask how you're doing, you're not SUPPOSED to tell them how poorly you are...they don't want to hear it, you're supposed to say fine!"

It bothers my Finnish-born and Swedish-raised fiance to no end when he enters into stores and restaurants and people ask him immediately "How are you?" He feels they don't care and he'd rather have them say nothing rather than be insincere.

Finnish-American girl here with more comments. I'm 36 years old and have been raised by Finnish-American parents who were raised by Finnish-American parents who were raised by Finnish parents. The vast majority of my large extended family is of Finnish ethnic origin. I grew up with a close-knit Finnish family amongst other Finnish and Scandinavian-Americans. It was a wonderful way to grow up but sometimes a little bit limited.

Having grown up this way and then moving to the big city of Minneapolis, I've found I've really had to adjust the social constructs of my world. When we went visiting friends and family, for example, it was considered polite, but not necessary to call ahead. Just pop in. There were always baked goods or something tucked away in the freezer for company. It did not matter what we were doing, we were ALWAYS happy to receive visits from company. I found that in Finland at least amongst the people I met in the north were much the same way. However, many Americans seem to find pop-in visits rude. I didn't know that until a friend once candidly told me that her husband gets a little offended when people stop by without calling first.

Another thing is the absolute candor and honesty sometimes needs to be curbed in mainstream American society. I've learned people don't always want to hear the truth. Once when a visitor selling insurance came to my mother's door he asked her how she was doing, she replied how she wasn't feeling so good and mentioned some other small misfortunes that occured that week. My sisters and I, who at the time were in our early teens, had to give mom a little lesson on ettiquette. "Mom, when people you don't know very well ask how you're doing, you're not SUPPOSED to tell them how poorly you are...they don't want to hear it, you're supposed to say fine!"

It bothers my Finnish-born and Swedish-raised fiance to no end when he enters into stores and restaurants and people ask him immediately "How are you?" He feels they don't care and he'd rather have them say nothing rather than be insincere.

Thanks for your thoughts. You offer a lot to respond to, so let me just comment on a few things.

"Americans are also hard to get to know on a deeper level -I think that this has to do with the fact that Americans are not very introspective and reflective, so they don't like to analyze their own feelings and motivations deeply... It is also hard for Americans to discuss their faults and shortcomings -which of course translates to keeping up appearances."

I think your observations are correct. Americans are not a very introspective or reflective people. We are also skeptical about "book learning" and the kind of critical thinking that comes from serious study, as compared to practical knowledge and experience. I think this is the downside of being an active, generally optimistic, problem-solving people. We tend to be doers, rather than thinkers. As I am more of a thinker, I often feel a little out of step.

"Distant Americans... For example, the majority of Americans find it odd that people would stop by unannounced -in Finland, if you show up at people's doorsteps, they invite you in and offer a cup of coffee... In the U.S., they chat with you for a while at the door and then cut the conversation short by saying something like "Well, I better get back to making dinner..." The phrase "stop by sometime" shouldn't be taken literally. (I have some funny stories about this from the International Students office at a university where I used to work.)"

I grew up in the rural Scandinavian (mostly Norwegian) Midwest, and my childhood was very much like your description of dropping in for a cup of coffee. We always visited our relatives--sometimes unannounced--and were always welcomed w/ coffee and cookies or, if it was meal time, an invitation to share the meal. In fact, when I was a child, a large part of my parents' social life consisted of piling their kids (however many they happened to have at the time) in the car and going to spend the evening with a family on a neighboring farm, which would also have had a pile of kids. So, we would show up unannounced, and we were always invited in. The grown-ups "visited" in the living room (or sometimes the men in the living room and the women in the kitchen), and the kids played outdoors, upstairs, or in the basement . . . until it got late and then we had "lunch" at midnight or so, before going home to bed. They were great times, and it's all gone now. Even in that small community, it's very unlikely that people would assume that that kind of hospitality awaited them.

"Conservative and prudish... Well, in the U.S., there are still arguments about abortion, sex education in schools, teaching evolutionary theory in schools, interracial dating (Bob Jones University!), etc. The list is endless..."

Can't argue w/ this. It's shameful. And some of these attitudes will hurt our society in the end. Doesn't seem likely that we will get the scientists we need to solve environmental problems, find new treatments for illnesses, or create new technologies if we are not giving people a serious education in the sciences . . . and we are not, even in places where the evolution issue isn't a public concern.

"As I wrote above, I love the politeness and positivity, though!"

I'm glad you do. I'll try to be polite and optimistic while I worry about the future of a country in which we have, well, too many problems to list at this late point in the day.

Thanks for your comments.

I thought they ask "hur mår du" in Sweden all the time; same kind of "small talk".

It is true though there is certain "polite face" or "pepsodent-smile" that American customer service put on. In Finland its called "fake-peppy" and really irritates people. More or less if you smile in public to strangers people think you are retarded -or then quickly check their fly is not undone. This then again makes Finnish customer service quite rude to viviting Americans. The difference is the Finn will *do* instead of being nice - no empty promises just to make the customer feel nice.

>>Not about Finland, but, hey, sometimes a person has to say what she has to say.

This is a good place to say anything.

"I think this is the downside of being an active, generally optimistic, problem-solving people. We tend to be doers, rather than thinkers."

hmmmm...I've never thought of problem-solving as something that doesn't require thinking. Maybe there isn't so much problem-solving going on, since you also say:

"I worry about the future of a country in which we have, well, too many problems"

>>And old American cars had style. They might not have run so good or been very reliable but they sure looked good.

Hey Joe this explains everything. I have had two American cars in my life. An -82 Oldsmobile 350 V8 diesel and a Pontiac Trans Am GTA -90 350 TPI V8. The Oldsmobile I got from an auction almost by accident The engine always broke down but I loved the interior so I decided to buy an American sports car. The Pontiac was almost new, some 12k miles when I bought it but it had the same tendency to quit working. I actually sold it only two years ago. I always wondered why they kept falling apart but your comment explains it. All the European cars I have had have been good work horses while the American cars are more for a hobby. Btw, I got 10600 euros (~ USD 13000) when I sold the Pontiac (13 years old, 60000 miles) which gives a picture of the high car prices here.

"It's interesting, for instance, that previous writers have described us as friendly, casual, distant, and hard to know.
Of course, different writers have had different experiences, but I wonder if there is something else underlying these somewhat contradictory impressions.
Do you have the sense that Americans are superficially friendly but not genuinely easy to know? What does it mean to be "wonderfully casual"? And how does that connect w/ being conservative and prudish?"

I truly agree with the "superficial friendliness" and "hard to get to know on a deeper level". I've been in US for nearly half a year now and this "I'm your friend but not really" thing is starting to get on my nerves. In my opinion it indeed is much harder to make friends with talkative americans than taciturn Finns, because this casual small talk is actually used as a very effective barrier. I would prefer people to act as they feel, i.e. not talking to me if they don't find me worth knowing. In Finland, when the quiet Finn working or living next to you some day starts talking to you, it's permanent - you have just started a deep and lasting friendship whether you wanted it or not :) Here it's just the opposite. Casual blabbering goes on, but even after months of knowing someone you still don't know if he/she really means it when saying "we should go and have lunch together some day". As if even going for lunch with somebody would be a sign of any kind of relationship. This is weird..

What I at the moment most miss about Finland is a proper drinking party, where everyone gets totally wasted, after which the naturally high sincerity and straight-forwardness culminates and reaches its globally purest essence. Maybe I should go back for juhannus (midsummer party) :)

Joe Stewart:
"I would like to know what Finns think of the USA and American people. Culture,govt.,etc. Americans as individuals when they visit Finland. What do Finn think of them?"

I'm afraid the usual stereotype is rather negative. Quite many believe americans to be rather stupid, due to the culture putting much value on material things (and youth culture on being popular) and the education system failing to give a broad picture of the world. Strong impression of almost medieval christianity as being part of everyday life (creationism etc) doesn't help much either.

Hipocricy is another thing that comes in to mind - this is mostly caused by the US foreign policies and mirrored on the people. Basic example of this is how USA portrays itself as the defender of freedom and human rights, while illegally imprisoning and torturing "terrorists". On individual level it comes to things such as stating how USA is the best country to be in due to the low taxes - while ignoring the amount of poor, for example. (I've met lots of americans who unfortunately strengthen this stereotype of hypocricy, in a way or another.)

Now, these are stereotypes, which most certainly don't apply to everyone - it is just the picture that most people have. It isn't the result of "socialistic propaganda" or anything, american foreign (and internal) policies combined with casual personal contact with some individuals is usually enough.

When an American asks "How are you?" if they know you, they really do care. If they do not, you must realize it is just part of the culture to ask that question.

I thought that this would be a funny anecdote here... When I lived in Minneapolis a couple of years ago (I am from Finland), I got so fed up with never being able to just stop by anyone's house that when we built a house and moved to a new neighborhood in the city, on the moving day I just stopped by our new neighbor's house -a typical Midwestern couple with English and German ancestors, who had lived in Minneapolis their whole lives... I could tell that they were very uncomfortable, but too polite to turn me away, so I made a joke out of it with something like "This is what we Finns do, so you have to just get used to it!"

I continued stopping by, and the couple became some of the best friends my husband and I have -now that we have moved away, they tell us that they miss me just plopping down on their couch unannounced! What is curious, though, is that the couple still never stopped by to visit us, even though I encouraged them to do so many times over the four years that we lived there...

"When an American asks "How are you?" if they know you, they really do care. If they do not, you must realize it is just part of the culture to ask that question."

Sounds simple, but is not. For example, how do you define knowing someone. Does it start after you have introduced yourself once? Or if you know someones name, what he/she does and have said hello to each other for 10 times? Or later? Even though I think I've "known" some americans for some time I wouldn't bet they actually care. We Finns are not very used to automatically recognising casual friendliness from the real thing, but we are pretty good at sensing if the sincerity is missing and it makes us feel odd.. Americans respectively get ackward by sensing that we don't know how to deal with what we are being said. That's one stiff social situation :)

This was the case for me some time ago. Now I don't consider "how are you" a real question no matter who is asking. It's not really a problem. What I and the other Finns here were talking about was something else, less obvious avoidance of depth in conversation and relationships.

It's funny! What we run away from home to get away from is often what we come to miss the most!

I'm American and lived in England and then The Netherlands for ten years. I was in my twenties and just had to get away from the shallow American life.

In my tenth year away, however, I smiled and said hello to a stranger also waiting for the Amsterdam tram. I'll never forget the look of cold bewilderment I received from her and that's when I realized maybe it was time to return "home".

The truth is that America is such a large country, people are mobile and always on the move. It's difficult to be "deep" when one hasn't got strong roots. There's a certain freedom in this life that lets one start over again and again. But, there's also an underlying loneliness that most of us don't recognise. It's a rather strange and uniquely American form of optimism!

I imagine some young people may feel that Finland is too "close", but then return home when they realize that's exactly what they miss.

***
Re the cars: I've got a Austrian friend in Los Angeles who makes a living buying vintage American cars and shipping them to clients all over Europe.

***
Thanks for the enjoyable series!

Finnish-American girl again. Your story about living in Minneapolis and introducing yourselves to your neighbors was just delightful, Finnish woman. This was just the sort of dilemnas I found myself in when I myself moved into the broader social environment of Minneapolis. As Finns (yes I know I am American, but I also identify as Finnish) I have been brought up to "say what I mean and to mean what I say." This is a style of communication Finns tend to have and perhaps explains why many Finns have and continued to have stuck together upon moving to the new world. There's simply less need to have to culturally filter and interpret everyday social interactions. There's less danger of misterpretations. It's not exactly racist or xenophobic, which many Finns have been accused of being. It's a comfort zone. I am very proud of my Finnish roots, but am happy to report that I have always sought to broaden my cultural horizons and count amongst my friends others of varying religions, races, and creeds. It doesn't mean I always understand their culture and it has its uncomfortable moments. Especially when you've realized you've just made a social gaffe! I especially enjoy my latin friends who exhibit a zest for life and joy of living in the moment.

It has happened from time to time that I have met people I instantly seemed to "click" with and whose communication styles I intrinsically could understand. Later we've been amazed to find we've shared a Finnish cultural heritage, which may not always correspond with a surname in cases of marriage or in Finns whose names have been anglicized. We always end up knowing people in common, which have caused observers to look at us quizically and ask "Do all Finns know eachother or something?" Instead of 6 degrees of separation, there most of the time are just one or two...really.

Yes, its true that "birds of a feather do flock together." It would be amiss to say there is something superior about the Finnish culture, though I admire Finnish culture greatly! I admire the way they take care of their society, their (our) sisu, problem-solving ability, their intelligence their raw talent in many areas. I'm so glad that Finland has finally made their mark on the world so people are standing up and taking notice.

Incidentally, my mom is a hairdresser, and her co-workers laugh that everytime a Finnish-American comes in and finds out Mary is a Finn, they always wind up switching hairdressers! Funny!

I have read this blog for the entire time and have found it very interesting. I am an American living in Finland and can identify with many of the comments. The Finns are a warm and friendly people, it is common for them to serve mehu (juice), coffee and pastries when someone just drops by. They can also be very frank. but that is how they communicate, they tell it how it is.
I have been a little perturbed about the many value judgements expressed in this blog. There are differences between the two countries (US and Finland), that doesn't make either the people or the country better or worse than the other. Just a thought.

As an American living in Finland, I will say that Finns don't have anything against Americans as people - I think most of them are pretty good at separating the policy/government from the people. Maybe they don't realize the extent to which America is, overall, very diverse.

It absolutely mortifies me to hear typical American tourists in the centre of Helsinki. You know the kind: loud, demanding, etc. Of course, there must also be the type of American tourist that tries to blend in as a generic (not American-type) tourist. I guess a stereotype about that kind of American tourist just can't come about, because who'd know... :)

" -82 Oldsmobile 350 V8 diesel and a Pontiac Trans Am GTA -90 350"

no,no, no, no we were not talking of *new* American cars. Those are *modern* POS. I wouldn't touch anything after 1972 come from Detroit with a long stick, and a diesel Olds mobile with a ten foot pole, no no no no no.

We are talking of the *old* American cars that up to 1972 were more or less good, say 1955-65 superb, your occasional lemon in the midst.

I used to have a 1965 Mercury Comet ;)

Being a Finn, I find the positive comments of "pop-in" visitors (without in-advance notice) a little bit strange.

Every Summer online chat rooms and letters to the editor in most popular weekly or monthly magazines are flooded by letters by Finns complaining about their relatives that just show-up at their Summer house without a notice, and then 'as guests' assume the full service without contributing anything labor or cost-wise.

And then to somethinhg else: I've lived in Bloomington, Indiana (attending _Indiana University_) for six years. This is supposed to be an oasis in Midwest, liberal (which of course is a curse-word in this state) and easy going college town. Still, having travelled quite a bit in the states, in the small places that foreign tourists usually do not go, I think it is unfair to make general statements about Americans. As well as Finns.

Why am I saying this, since it sounds so obvious?

I agree with tei. But in my opinion it is not only unfair to make general statements about finns or americans, but it also shows a lack of perspective and education.

Another comment to the "pop-in" visits:
It seems to me that although it is still OK to just show up on the door, most (of us) Finns would prefer a little notise beforehand. (Since we all have cellphones, it does seem a little odd not to phone/send sms that you are coming, if you do not live close by). Of cource this also varies with where you are (city/countryside) and who you are: family, close frieds, nextdoor neigthbour, a colleague or an american-cousin..

I've also enjoyed reading both the diary and this blog, although at times it seems there are only Finns talking to Finns about Finland.. ;) The time difference perhaps?

It's common for the finnish to think that if you don't have anything important to say it's better you don't say anything at all.

About the attitudes towards USA and Americans

My thoughts are diverse. As many others I know warm intellignet people who respect other culture. I admire the efforts in science and arts.

But... there are the people who consider US to be superior to other countries, who think President of the United States is the "leadaer of the free world"although it should be The General Secretary of the United Nations.What is the free world anyway? I can't understand the need to raise one nation above the others.

The tendency to always say that something is the most beautiful, the best, the greatest or the most expensive gives the message that everything is a competition. I am well aware that the "The American Dream" drives people to that. Unfortunately it is far from the original dream of the immigrants. They wanted to have it a little bit better than ín the old country. That level has been reached a long time ago.

Someone asked in the chat why the reporters were in Finland although there is a war going on. I am grateful for them being here. If there was more effort to understand other countries and cultures, there would be less wars.

I hope that the present government in US finds in themselves the wisdom to admit that they have made mistakes and start to work for peace instead. Stubborness only hurts their credibility. If they used the energy to the welfare of the people they could get a lot done.

I hope that my comments have not affened you. I do believe in understanding and respect among peoples.

Well, I basically have the same experience of many Americans: friendly, very positive, but in a way very distant and protective. You don't get a feeling of they personality and their personal thoughts even in long standing regular contact. But I still think that behind that barrier they are just as individual and genuine as - for example - your regular Finns. You just have to get to the level of "real" friendship.

Anyway, in daily life this wonderful friendliness and chattiness is awfully helpful: in Finland you get easily to awkward situations just because people's verbal skills are not very good. This is of course especially difficult for foreigners: Finns can sound horribly rude without meaning to be, they just clumsily blurt out the bluntest questions and observations... In Finnish the tone of voice and small added words soften this, but in English, most don't know how to use this. Also the communication between Finns is very minimalistic: you just learn to read the gestures and tones, but of course the foreigners really won't be able to do this for years.

Tei

People go to their summer cottage during their holidays or week-ends to relax with their families. These are the moments when most of them do not want any "pop-in" visitors.

But the expectation for "full service" is the worst. I think most of the Finnish people don't mind if someone just shows-up, chats for a while and leaves after the cup of coffee. But there are people who say "Hey, you have a nice boat, let's go fishing" or something similar. Now, that is rude and stupid and I think the major cause for the writings you see on papers.

But i guess things are changing here. I think that the amount of people who feel annoyed about popup visitors is increasing specially in the biggest cities. But it depends so much about the host and the visitor.

>I think that in this regard Americans have more polished social rules.

No, they are just politcally correct which lends itself to superficiality. "Bumper sticker mentality" reigns here. There is hardly any real engagement amongts the commoners on the real issues in society. They are content with wearing t-shirts and bumper stickers that proclaim their psuedo-ideological sensibilities (most likely Christain), and could not even tell you who the vice president is or what democracy means. Democracy is failing in the u.s. precisely because the people are content with pc rubbish. You can't have democracy without a truly informed people and pc-free debates.

>Strong impression of almost medieval christianity as being part of everyday life (creationism etc) doesn't help much either.

There was an excellent article 2 weeks ago in the Business Weekly about the blending of marketing principles into Christian fundemantalism. Due in part to marketing 'tenets' burrowed from Corporate America, some churches boast weekly attendances of 30,000 people. What concerns most secularists, such myself, is the enormous influence of megachurches and evangelicalism on American politics. Policies are being determined not based on rational, logical and scientific thought but on unabashed, irrational, and yes medieval faith.
I will see if I can find the website link.

I agree with the comments above that when the Finns finally start talking with somebody, it's based on a long deliberation, and they really want to get to know the new person...

But, the average shyness of Finnish communication can also be quite disturbing. I studied as an exchange student in Germany, and there in the classes students were not afraid to debate with the professor, even when they had highly contradicting views with him/her. This _very_ rarely happens in the Finnish universities - or the students who do it are considered to be "loud speaking weirdos" ;) But maybe a change is taking place, with the new generations.

I also would like to comment on the greeting/"how are you"-conversation. I've also lived in Brussels, Belgium, and there when you for example entered a lift, you always greeted if there already was someone. A small thing, but tells a lot about the culture: when it is self-evident that you do it, it takes no energy, no thinking ahead. Whereas the Finns (I recognize this from myself as well :) always seem to start _thinking_ if it's needed to say hello or not... In the Finnish culture it's considered polite to be distant to strange people!

".... Business Weekly about the blending of marketing principles into Christian fundemantalism.... What concerns most secularists, such myself, is the enormous influence of megachurches and evangelicalism on American politics."

This is neither a joke nor an insult, but I see some similarities with Christian fundamentalism and Islam fundamentalism.

What does the other readers think?

Some random comments about Finns and Americans...

It's funny: I have the opposite experience of many here. I find that in Helsinki, it is very easy to chat with people - random strangers, shopkeepers, waiters - and have lovely little conversations, and in San Francisco when I have tried the same, I get puzzled, hostile looks. I am not very scary looking or anything, a normal looking woman in my thirties.

Maybe San Francisco has more urban problems and angst, and people don't trust that you don't want anything from them, just a little friendly moment?

I also really enjoy the friendliness of Finnish restaurant staff - because they are not tipped, you know that they are actually being genuinely nice. It feels so much more dignified than someone groveling for an extra buck.

My absolute favorite thing about Americans is the quick wit and appreciation of humorous banter. I also feel that there is a lot of respect for genuine intelligence, as opposed to book learning or "intellectualism". I am a big fan of street smarts myself, so this makes me really happy.

Sometimes the Finnish "deep" conversations are nothing more than negativity masking itself as intelligence, and repetition of stereotypes and misinformation (especially when Finns are talking about America). Saying sweeping negative judgements about the United States is a kind of shorthand in Finland for announcing that you are intelligent and a critical thinker, especially if you are badly educated and insecure and in fact a little stupid.

I think in the U.S., bashing religion has the same role (labeling yourself as very intelligent and brave) as bashing the U.S. has in Finland. I am not a devout person myself, but I do think that labeling all Christians as crazy and stupid just because some are, really just plays into the hand of the crazy, stupid minority and makes them look like a majority. In the same way, labeling every American as a stupid power hungry world police destroyer, only helps the ones who really are by helping us forget the moderate majority.

My experience is that although many Finns are critical of US government policies, there are many well-informed people here and often a capability to distinguish between politics and people. When I was a kid in Helsinki during the 80s, I felt my friends were far more interested in American popular culture than in Finnish culture. There was almost an atmosphere like kids in e.g. Joensuu dig Finnish music but American music is our music. I traveled extensively in North America with my parents during the 80s and 90s. We visited places like California, Arizona, Hawaii, NY, Florida, Washington DC, Niagara Falls and the Canadian Rockies. To this day I've never been to Lapland. Last year I visited the Cathedral in Turku for the first time and was very impressed with it. I visited JFK's grave in Arlington, VA but I've never been to Urho K. Kekkonen's gravesite although it would have been just a short walk from home.

>>But in my opinion it is not only unfair to make general statements about finns or americans, but it also shows a lack of perspective and education.

I totally agree. Though the inhabitants of a nation (or a smaller grouping) certainly do hold some common features based on genes and/or social upbringing (and diffusion of ideas) each person is different and generalizations always do injustice to someone.

(I am the person who posted above with "random comments".) I agree that U.S. culture is very pervasive in Finland and elsewhere in the world. I also think that there is objectively a lot to criticize about American policy, especially in regards to foreign policy and social welfare.

I hope I didn't come across as saying "everyone who criticizes the U.S is stupid", because that is not what I meant. I meant to criticize intellectual laziness, which must be something that occurs in every country and takes many different forms.

I think that this blog and this forum has been a wonderful antidote tolack of understanding of other cultures. I think the reporting has been wonderful, and a lot of the discussion too.

Thank you, Robert and Lucian, and everyone who has participated in thoughtful discussion.

joonas: "It's common for the finnish to think that if you don't have anything important to say it's better you don't say anything at all."

Exactly. In Finland there is no concept of "embarrassing silence". A group of Finnish people sitting quietly together are not mute (replace the word with a more PC one if you are not Finnish and desperately need it) or hating each other madly. They are quite comfortable without any meaningless small talk.

I would not say that the "deep" conversations are really about politics - it is more about your personal life and your innermost thoughts about yourself. Basically quite total openness between friends. Most people really are not very well informed on world affairs and resort to stereotypes and prejudices instead. Americans suffer a lot of this when abroad, but for example the US Conservatives feel free to give credence to most appalling and hostile (mis)beliefs about European lifestyle and culture. In general I would say that for example the Finnish media does give proper weight also to negative sides on the US War on Terror (with which the bloody Iraq adventure has only somewhat rhetorical connection) - this in contrast with the mainstream media in America (with some leading newspapers as the fairly honourable exception).

"wasn't Mr. Kaiser going to write about racism? Haven't seen that article yet."

There is not a lot of it Finland that was targeting foreigners. Look at crime figures, foreigners are not being killed. Look at figures for people in prisons, not many foreigners there, unlike in other Nordic countries, and not many foreigners in mental institutions either.

Biggest thing to note is that lots of gypsies end up on prison. Similar to black people in U.S.

"I think in the U.S., bashing religion has the same role (labeling yourself as very intelligent and brave) as bashing the U.S. has in Finland."

More common among those who like to think themselves as academics than the normal people.
There also are people who think american WWF is the best TV has to offer.

"friendliness of Finnish restaurant staff - because they are not tipped, you know that they are actually being genuinely nice."

Usually the kind of people who like being around people go to work in them. The pay is relatively low.

"However, many Americans seem to find pop-in visits rude."

Because of cell phones, now it is rude here as well. Had they never come about it would still be common at least among the lower classes to visit people without a notice. Used to be many had no phone at all so people would just come visit, also those who had phones. Probably higher classes used to tell in advance but I know nobody who is that. Most people I know have never ordered a newspaper as they are too expensive and so on.

I don't know if anybody has stated here before either of these facts:
1. Contrary to a common mistake, Finland is not a part of Scandinavia.
2. In everyday talk all Americans, no matter where they come from, are commonly called as a "jenkki" ("Yankee).

""and it seemed they were under the impression every part of America was crime-ridden and dangerous and that life here was really hard. I live in Minnesota where the quality of life is actually quite good and some say our social programs are a bit too generous. In some way we're comparable to Finland, with our lake cottage culture and our value of social capital."
(Oops. Let's try again.)

Finns often don't comprehend the cultural diversity of the U.S. We often think America is a monocultural country."

The crime figures show the white americans are killed/kill about as often as Finns. Finns kill themselves a lot more often. Interestingly it seems the north has highest suicide rate in u.s.

http://juneauempire.com/stories/010204/sta_suicide.shtml

Someone commented on the similarities of christian and islamic fundamentalism. Any radicalism is unhealthy because it closes your ears to other ideas. Yes, I think christian and islamic fundamentalists are similar in many ways. It's not much of an exaggeration to say that if Bush truly got his way, U.S. would be more like Iran or Saudi Arabia. He has already eroded lines between religion and politics, making U.S. less secular. For example, by favouring christian charities when doling out government money to social programs. If I remember correctly, it was illegal for the government to fund religious organisations before Bush. So now, if you want to stop your alcohol abuse you may end up hooked on religion just like Bush himself! Like islamic countries, he would gladly curb people's freedoms and has done so via the patriot act. And just like these islamic countries, he does not place enough value on science and my hunch says that if he could have his way they would be studying the bible a lot more in american schools, similar to the emphasis on the koran in Saudi Arabia, for example. Bush government plays on emotional issues and that's how they got re-elected. Just like the religious leaders in the middle-east, Bush has stirred up a fervour amongst religious americans that enables so many bad policies to go through. Just like islamic leaders who point to people as heretics when they say anything critical of the status quo, Bush and pals came up with this ingenious form of patriotism where you are accused of being unpatriotic if you speak against their Iraq policies for example. The atmosphere is getting quite scary and the media are not doing their job.

"The word is "runkkari" spelled in british "wankers".

Very embrassaing to most finlanders -- almost like the estonian country&blues-scene to estonians."

Not to most. Most think people are free to express themselves as they will as long as they are not breaking the law. And most like the cars. A Finnish female is easier to attract with a 10.000 euro old american car than a 30000 euro new car.
Another thing to point out is that the old cars do not lose their value as new ones do. So if you can fix them yourself your hobby is not that expensive.

"Not a sign of defiance was it ever, but exactly the opposite, the sign of utter & indefinite submission -- cowboy-boots and all."

To some, a sign of defiance against the local policies. They cannot change them but want to show what they think of them.
Most just like the cars.
http://www.nettiauto.com/listClub.php

"For example, by favouring christian charities when doling out government money to social programs."

That would not be a good critizism against america if it came from a Finn as almost all the EU free food for the poor in Finland is handed out by different churches. As they get apparently money to hand out food with they even compete who will get to do that.

"I studied as an exchange student in Germany, and there in the classes students were not afraid to debate with the professor, even when they had highly contradicting views with him/her. This _very_ rarely happens in the Finnish universities - or the students who do it are considered to be "loud speaking weirdos" ;)"

It is not the students. It is more those there standing in front of the students and not really wanting to be interrupted.

"The crime figures show the white americans are killed/kill about as often as Finns. Finns kill themselves a lot more often. Interestingly it seems the north has highest suicide rate in u.s."

Long winters of north and drinking binges are quite dangerous combinations. Finnish murders and suicides are usually made of these, they are quite predictable family tragedies or quarrels with drinking buddies. There have been speculation that homicide rates will turn down as our largest generation gets older - after 40 years people tend not to kill others, but themselves. Since our violence is like this, we're not accustomed to any other kind of street violence than aggressive lone drunks and American crime series which show crimes as a 'whodunnit?' give us a bit extreme view of American crimes.

Hm, to put it other way, here homicides are more Dostojevskian, Slavic tragedies where there are of course innocent victims, but the guilty party is also an object of pity, usually someone who killed the thing he valued most and feeels it. Finnish penal system would be great subject for article, if Lucien and Robert had time. It's shockingly different, and also something that wasn't born that way, but something we changed decisively in 70's to be that way. Bottom line is, that it doesn't try very hard to feed the people's need to 'see the justice happen and the guilty get punished' but to see that the guilty party has some other options in the future that he doesn't do that again. It also is quite flammable subject for online discussion... People feel often that someone got too easily, but feel whatever, when there are other people's life on line, criminal or not.

There are apparently more social welfare programs in Finland than the U.S. so a few churches handing out bread isn't too bad. Charitable organisations probably play more of a key role in the U.S. then. I'm not against church charities but they are blatantly favoured due to a larger christian agenda. And now that religious organisations can get this type of governmnent funding why is it that there hasn't been one non-christian organisation receiving this money? This example of funding christianity was just one among many examples of furthering the christian mission.

"I would like to know what Finns think of the USA and American people. Culture,govt.,etc. Americans as individuals when they visit Finland. What do Finn think of them?"

In my opinion, most Finns truly like Americans as individuals. At least - with very few exceptions - all the Americans I've met have been very polite and friendly (some of them superficial as some of Finns too).

There is a big difference how Finns see Americans as individuals and the US goverment (including foreing policy, legislation etc). The same kind of anti-US (goverment) atmosphere is a worlwide phenomenon. I'm hope and believe that most peopple don't mix these things. It's not on any individuals responsibility what GWB is doing (except GWB's!).

"Bottom line is, that it doesn't try very hard to feed the people's need to 'see the justice happen and the guilty get punished' but to see that the guilty party has some other options in the future that he doesn't do that again."

So they say but the fact of the matter is the cells are being critisized as too small, too cold, not having toilets but buckets and when the criminal gets outside there is the trash can to live in as social services do not bother provide money or a flat to live in.

"Finnish murders and suicides are usually made of these, they are quite predictable family tragedies or quarrels with drinking buddies"

They claim it is a Finnish thing but it is the same elsewhere too.

What I find nice is how nowadays the salespeople in small shops especially seem to become more and more active. They approach you and ask if they could be of assistance. It used to be that a bunch of them kept on chatting and they'd look disturbed if a customer came to ask for help. Also, restaurant staff is really embracing the customer service concept to the letter. I like it.

Then I was distubed by some people claiming that it is common thinking here that Americans are stupid. Looking back as kid, we did use stereotypes a lot: Swedish are gay, British are pompous, Russians are dirty mafiosos ready to kill you for your sneakers, Africans are smelly and American, well, slightly airheaded with pretencious smile saying things like: "Wow, I really like that tree, it is so green and tall, wow!"

In my pre-teens I used to play World Wrestling Federation with Star Wars action figures with my buddy. In our fantasy plays, the bad guys won all the time. American antihero characters such as Macho Man Savage and Darth Vader were our 'idols' in 1980s Helsinki.

So when the retired bad-guy wrestler Tony 'The Viking' Halme entered politics (after he heard that Jesse 'The Body' Ventura was elected Governor of Minnesota) and was elected to the Finnish parliament with 5% of all Helsinkians' votes on an anti-immigrant, anti-welfare state right-wing platform, I wasn't surprised to hear that some of the people I had known in my childhood had voted for him as a joke, essentially like voting for Darth Vader.

It is a huge irony that Halme, full of anti-immigrant vitriol, spent half his life as an immigrant in America. To me Halme represents the anathema to what is good about America, namely multiculturalism and openness to immigration. But his kooky politics (as an anti-Terminator of sorts) is quite popular in many suburbs of Helsinki.

About the homicides. It said in some paper that only people in USA and Yemen have more smallarms than Finns. So when you are drunk and decide to kill someone, it's shouldn't be a problem to find yourself a weapon. Of course all homicides are done witha good old Swedish Mora-knife.

Last year Finns brought over 8.000 illegal guns to police. That's quite a few for five million people.

>>".... Business Weekly about the blending of marketing principles into Christian fundemantalism.... What concerns most secularists, such myself, is the enormous influence of megachurches and evangelicalism on American politics."
This is neither a joke nor an insult, but I see some similarities with Christian fundamentalism and Islam fundamentalism.

What does the other readers think?

---

The fundamentalists are often trying to sanctify the secular world by giving all sorts of dos and don'ts for you to obey and which will certainly make your life a misery. That is not true gospel, it's merely a collection moralistic commands which will lead nowhere. Our Creator is the giving party, there is nothing we must do, except to believe in our Savior, everything is free which is the way God works.

Islam does the same as the Christian fundamentalists, again a collection dos and don'ts. But in addition it is a collection of man invented believes and as such a terrible conception. Islam is not open for intellectual examination what Christianity is.

To many Finns who say they do not believe in God, believing is often understood as a collection of moralistic orders which you should start to obey. There are many reasons for this misconception, the least of these not perhaps the way the Lutheran church displays the gospel when it does not stress that all we have to do is to believe. Reading your "Father in Heaven .." evening or morning pray is quite adequate. If you go to a church service here you will hardly find how to become a Christian. All this is very sad because our loving God has done everything ready for us and only calls us to find him by believing in our Savior and to receive the love he offers. It's like a start for a new friendship so there is no collection of orders jumping on you. All that is nothing but manmade garbage.

"I don't know if anybody has stated here before either of these facts:
1. Contrary to a common mistake, Finland is not a part of Scandinavia.
2. In everyday talk all Americans, no matter where they come from, are commonly called as a "jenkki" ("Yankee).

Posted by: AJ, Ca | June 10, 2005 04:44 AM"

These thems have been discussed extensively, countless times, for examle in soc.culture.nordic, and I'm afraid you'v got it wrong, AJ.

(Sorry if I'm brief and not discussing, but making statements, but it would take too much space and time writing about aal the details of these things.)

1.In (American) English, Scandinavia includes Finland. Here Scandinavia (geografic term) usually don't include Finland, but Finland is a Nordic country (political term).

2.It might be one way to spot a Finn that has not lived in North America (majority, naturally): Using "a term "jenkki". I never use that word.
...
BTW, ignorance and stupidity is defenetly not only a Nort American trait.

What I dislike about us Finns, is our negativity (me included). In this respect, IMO we have a great deal to learn from, say Merkings and Swedes, and some perhaps also from our Swedish speaking minority.

Greetings from Sunny Helsinki.

I think all intelligent Americans(many on these blogs)should imigrate to Finland;)We could use your brains and hearts=)

"It's not on any individuals responsibility what GWB is doing (except GWB's!)."

Um, GWB is an elected official. There are individuals who voted for him. If the U.S. is a democracy, as they claim, and not a tyranny, it is surely the voters' responsibility to some extent what their government does?

"Finnish murders and suicides are usually made of these, they are quite predictable family tragedies or quarrels with drinking buddies"

"They claim it is a Finnish thing but it is the same elsewhere too."

True, but we have only one type of murder. 90% of the time it happens the same way: A small group of people, maybe 2-4 persons, are drinking. They drink a gallon of beer each and then they drink vodka. At 2-5 am Someone gets jealous or angry because of the alcohol. Then he grabs a knife and stabs his buddy/girl friend 2-6 times.

Is it like this everywhere?

"Is it like this everywhere?"

Yes. What did you think ?

Seems the journalists too have believed the stereotype they been given. Go visit any european city.
Finns drink 10.4 liters, average europeans 10.8 liters of pure alcohol a year.
In the older figures for Finland, the figures are most probably not right. Consumption has remained about the same but they did not include alcohol that was smuggled before.

I love the title of this one!

http://www.heartstats.org/datapage.asp?id=995
Finns drink the same amount as those in U.K. who also drink less than the average European.

In the same civilized European manner as well.
The alcohol monopoly Alko which was copied from Sweden together with many other things that do not work, used to claim there is a lot less drinking than there was but nowadays the figures should be reliable as Finland joined the EU and the statistics are compiled with similar methods.

Wow,what a series this has turned out to be. As a Finn I was just incredibly proud that WP decided to make this journey. This is my first posting but I´ve been quite an active reader and I really like all the things discussed.
I spent a summer in Minnesota and have been a fan of US since. The people I met and things I did were something to remember. Recently though my liking has been put to test via GWB and his administration. Happily I´m able to separate people and politics so my american friends won´t hear me ranting. All the best to you all, I´ll be starting my summer holiday with a sunshine.

I thought some more about visible poverty in the U.S and why seeing it seems so much harder than seeing poverty in, say, Thailand or Mexico. And I think it is because of the contrast - there are so many rich people, the U.S economy is the biggest in the world - surely they should be able to take better care of their sick and poor than cast them to roam the streets?

I think one of the stronger concepts of a Finnish upbringing is the termn "yhteisvastuu" - "shared responsibility". No matter if your parents, teachers and other elders were leftist or religious (or both!), they all shared a core vision, that as a nation we are ALL responsible together, especially for our poor, sick, and young.

I think that is why it is so conflcting and painful for me to see poverty next to megabanks on American streets. To some extent I feel I am a part of American society, and my Finnish upbringing is telling me I am responsible for doing something about the suffering I see - but I am at a loss for where to begin.

"all Helsinkians' votes on an anti-immigrant, anti-welfare state right-wing platform, "
Someone there wanted an article about racism in Finland. I don't see the point: there are not many foreigners. Not enough to make any conclusions. Racism is probably only directed to black people. Not many around. Unless you count the Romas who have no schooling. That is common in whole of Europe. Interestingly also Finns have less schooling than the ruling class, the Swedish speaking who have more money. Tradiotinally they got their place with violence and such, Finns were only allowed to schooling if they too could speak Swedish. To universities they have proportionally many times the places and thus they end up in higher positions.

There is no racism directed to white western foreign people. The racism the black meet is peculiar too: some women are very fond of them so despite not finding jobs many choose to stay. There are not a lot of foreign women around. Women like warn countries.

"I think that is why it is so conflcting and painful for me to see poverty next to megabanks on American streets."

Do they have that in small white towns too ?

In Finland there are homeless even in towns of 50 000 where there are lots of empty and affordable housing but homeless have no money to rent any.

" I am well aware that the "The American Dream" drives people to that. Unfortunately it is far from the original dream of the immigrants. They wanted to have it a little bit better than ín the old country. That level has been reached a long time ago.

Someone asked in the chat why the reporters were in Finland although there is a war going on. I am grateful for them being here.
"
America is affluent enough to have a war going on all the time. Who was the last president who had no war ?

"flooded by letters by Finns complaining about their relatives that just show-up at their Summer house "

Then the relatives have to do a lot of work there too. Chop wood. Clean. Fix buildings, etc.
Some complain about that.

"1.In (American) English, Scandinavia includes Finland. Here Scandinavia (geografic term) usually don't include Finland, but Finland is a Nordic country (political term)."

Politically Finland is a Nordic country.

Geographically Finland is (in) Fenno-Scandia.

What an outstanding series! What I've found just as interesting as the articles are the discussions that have followed (primarily from Finns). I've had quite a few discussions with other Americans who have become intrigued with Finnish culture as a result of this series.

One topic we keep coming back to is how well Finland works as a welfare state. This has caused us to debate whether such a system could work in America. While we haven't come to any conclusions, we have noted that with the diversity in people, value systems, culture, history and current attitudes within the country, we have doubts that it would be feasible.

It seems that the Finnish people have a lot of pride and feel great personal responsibility for their people and their country. Is that an accurate assesment and is it critical for such a system to thrive?

What an outstanding series! What I've found just as interesting as the articles are the discussions that have followed (primarily from Finns). I've had quite a few discussions with other Americans who have become intrigued with Finnish culture as a result of this series.

One topic we keep coming back to is how well Finland works as a welfare state. This has caused us to debate whether such a system could work in America. While we haven't come to any conclusions, we have noted that with the diversity in people, value systems, culture, history and attitudes within the country, we have doubts that it would be feasible.

It seems that the Finnish people have a lot of pride and feel great personal responsibility for their people and their country. Is that an accurate assesment and is it critical for such a system to thrive?

I lived in NYC 10 years ago, which really isn't an american city but a melting pot of hundreds of nations and languages. I did some travelling and found "real America" elsewhere...US is such a big, big country with a lot of different people, you can't really compare Finland to US...Most of the people I've met have been friendly, but yes, sometimes too loud and obnoxious and I think many american women like to gossip a lot. I learned it hard way that I couldn't really trust many people...I guess I am a quite serious finn, lol But anyway I've read this blog everyday and thought I'd say hello before this ends. I really miss NYC and wish that I could go there again.

(Someone could translate these better, please.. ;-) )

Here in Finland we say: "Kaveria ei jätetä." It means (someting like this): "You don't leave a friend behind."

We also say: "Joka apua saa, sitä joskus tajuu myös antaa." "Someone who has had help, understands to give it back too"

That is actually a slogan from RAY. Raha-automaattiyhdistys=Finland's Slot Machine Association,
http://www.ray.fi/inenglish/raytietoa/index.php

I think these sentences tell a lot about us Finns.

I think the comments on these stories are much more interesting than the stories themselves. It is a wonderful opportunity for a cross cultural exchange. I have learned a great deal about Finland and Finns from the comments following each of these stories. The stories themselves are quite unremarkable. Not even good travel writing. I guess I will have to look up Rick Steeves and see what he says about Finland. But I must give the creators of these stories and this site credit for allowing these comments from real people to real people to advance a cultural exchange bewteen Finns and others(including Americans like me). Thanks.

"One topic we keep coming back to is how well Finland works as a welfare state."

That's what all the foreign people who I know are saying about Finland. "Everyting _works_ here..!"

This has really been very interesting as a Finn. It's facinating to follow these conversations between Finns and Americans. Others too, I believe. I understand english much, much better than I write, so I'm sorry I can't quite say what I would like to. It has been a long time from my studying days, so I have forgotten a lot. Practising ... ;-)

It would be very nice to continue these conversations somewhere after this Finland Diary. (As a Finn I mean it too..)

Have an extremely nice summer and be friendly to each other!

Related to what I wrote earlier, here's a link about our prison system that gives me a warm, proud feeling. Hope it stays that way.

http://www.cjcj.org/press/finn_prisons.html

"Everyting _works_ here..!"

That is indeed very true. One thing I often miss abroad is the way things just work in Finland. I was in Spain last year and came to the conclusion that Spanish people must spend at least half of their entire lives in different kinds of queues as absolutely nothing works or goes as you'd expect in there. :)

"Tradiotinally they got their place with violence and such, Finns were only allowed to schooling if they too could speak Swedish."

Bollocks. The last time I beat someone up because of my second mother tongue (finnish first, swedish second) was at a taxi stand in 1993 at Kamppi because some finnish-speaking drunken idiot and his friend from Jyvaskyla hit me in the face 'cause I dared to publicly speak swedish with my friend.

I'd hope that the small and difficult minority of fennomans that blame all their hardships and failings got themselves their own lives that they could live to the full and take responsility of, instead of blaming parties that have nothing to do with their self imposed misery.

"But I must give the creators of these stories and this site credit for allowing these comments from real people to real people to advance a cultural exchange bewteen Finns and others(including Americans like me)."

These could be my words. Unfortunately this blog is about to end, but hopefully WP allows discussion to continue. In case they don't I want to thank all participants about their opinions. Special thanks to Kirby Olson, whose writings have been exceptionally interesting and Joe Stewart, who is a true lover of Finnish movies.

It has been so nice to read the opinions of second or third generation finnish americans. Thanks jenni_amerikkalainen and others (whose nick I cannot remember right now) about your wonderful stories. It was touchy to read a story when someone landed in Oulu with a tears in her eyes (true or not).

All the best to everyone of you

Pertti

>>To many Finns who say they do not believe in God, believing is often understood as a collection of moralistic orders which you should start to obey. There are many reasons for this misconception...

Oh yeah I forgot to mention that I smoke, drink beer, party and do what ever except bang my neighbors wife;-).
Life is good!

>>To many Finns who say they do not believe in God, believing is often understood as a collection of moralistic orders which you should start to obey. There are many reasons for this misconception...

Oh yeah I forgot to mention that I smoke, drink beer, party and do what ever except bang my neighbors wife;-).
Life is good!

BTW, with all these thanks some Finns may think I sound too much like an American;)

BTW, with all these thanks some Finns may think I sound too much like an American;)

Sounds like you are speaking in front of the Oscar Academy..! :-D

Merja, and others interested...

On the good old Usenet News, there still exists a newsgroup with the name [soc.culture.nordic]. I haven't participated in the discussions there for ages, but the group still exists and can be accessed trough most ISP's that provide a newsserver (NNTP server).

The group was still great a couple of years ago. Be warned though, the discussions there tend to be extremely hot...

For those that would like to participate, but don't know how, the keywords are : NNTP newsgroups soc.culture.nordic

Merja I forgot the most important

Thanks to WP, Robert G. Kaiser and Lucian Perkins :-P

"Thanks to WP, Robert G. Kaiser and Lucian Perkins"

Oh yes, indeed.. ;-)

I'd like to thank them too. This has been really fun and interesting!

Although the conditions in Finland and the U.S. are not directly comparable since U.S. is much bigger and much more multicultural, I think saying that this nordic type of welfare is not at all feasible in the U.S. is a bit of a cop out. You can't directly transplant the Finnish system in the U.S. (and why should you) but considering how much wealth there is in the U.S. (and considering that it is a well organized democracy) I think it would not be impossible to implement some reforms like universal healthcare and cheaper -if not free- higher education (and improving the worst public schools to even the playing field). Education and health are the two top things that should be a right, not a privilege. You wouldn't have to go this radical in taxation but your rich are so inconceivably rich that raising taxes on this folk should provide a good deal. Bill Gates alone is as rich as some countries, after all. Also, your military spending -your defence budget- is well above the necessary (because people like many in the current administration have business interests there). I also believe that many americans, if they were well educated about these possibilities, would gladly do what's necessary. The problem just is that the money tends to have the power so the top people like to keep the american myth alive of everyone having the opportunity to strike it rich. I like america and americans (I am married to one!), so much so that I am very passionate about wanting to see more opportunity for the worst off there! The gap between rich and poor is ever growing and it's the poorer majority that's suffering. By the