The parlament decided yesterday to reduce the amount of subsidized months for students from 55 to 50. At the same time the right to study in a university was limited to six years. The aim of these decision was to force students not to work during semesters. In practice that won't happen because it requires one to live with less than 100 euros a month. (maximum stipend 430 euros, rent 330 euros). Our politicians and the government has been very active to deconstruct the very basis of our education system which led to the pisa results and the praise and glory through out this diary. Tuition fees will soon follow and the proposal is already being drafted.

"The parlament decided yesterday to reduce the amount of subsidized months for students from 55 to 50."

Very sad. Being a fairly recently graduated MSc I find it odd and insulting that Finnish decision-makers have started blaming student for lazyness. As if many of us really would like to keep living on the generous allowance of 430 euros per month as long as possible if there was work available! Living costs in bigger cities (e.g. rents 250-500) are so high that you really can't survive without a part-time job, and this cut of months isn't going to help anybody to graduate faster. In the 1980's, people were nearly dragged from schools to work by huge demand, and that I guess is what older generation has in mind when planning these "improvements". Current students rather keep studying and developing themselves than graduate to become unemployed. I hope universities at least start offering better study advisor services.

If there are 50 universities and colleges to 5,2 million people, that would mean there is 1 school offering higher education to a group of 104000 people. If we assume that 1/10 of total population actually actively uses higher education services, there would be 10400 potential student towards every school. Sounds pretty efficient to me.

"If we assume that 1/10 of total population actually actively uses higher education services,"

Two thirds of the age group studies in universities and polytechnic colleges. That's 66%.

66% of the age group of course, what ever percentage that is of the whole population.

"The parlament decided yesterday to reduce the amount of subsidized months for students from 55 to 50."

Yes, they're slowly taking away our benefits little by little. 5 months may not seem like much, but it adds up.

Quality education remains a luxury item for many people. There may be some excesses, but overall, I applaud the Finnish people for investing in their most valuable resource: their youth.

Here in America we pay exponentially on the back end for having so many semi-literate and illiterate people. We pay in increasing incarceration rates of our citizens; the inability to compete as well as we should in the new global economy; and with lackluster participation in electoral politics.

Here in the United States, we can benefit by more and better resources being filtered into K-12 education and college and vocational education. The success of any nation and people is always tied to literacy, employability, and arts appreciation.

Any nation that invests in educating its people is truly investing in its continuation and success as a society.

That is a desirable and smart move to me!

By the way, illiteracy is virtually unheard of in Finland.

And Finns are voracious readers of newspapers. I definitely respect the quality and content of the news in Finland.

"And Finns are voracious readers of newspapers."

Not only newspapers, but also books. Reading is one of the most popular hobbies.

"By the way, illiteracy is virtually unheard of in Finland."

There's some literacy page ("Finnish teenagers excel in OECD literacy survey"):

http://virtual.finland.fi/netcomm/news/showarticle.asp?intNWSAID=25825

I guess reading is so popular in Finland, because there is nothing else to do, especially during the fall and winter. Finns say they like to have their four seasons, to an outsider it seems like there are only two seasons though, fall and winter. Case in point, the temperature in Finland is currently hovering around 10 degrees Celsius (50 Fahrenheit) and it's June already. I suppose the temperature of the place where I am currently at (about 30 degrees Celsius (85 Fahrenheit)) would be too hot for most Finns anyway. I guess nobody can do anything about the weather, but I think most people can at least agree on one thing, namely how bad the weather is in Finland.

I don't think that the weather in Finland is bad.

At best during the summer it can rise above 25C, possibly even to 30C.

During the winter it can go as low as -25C.

So the weather definately supports a vast arrange of pssible hobbies.

This has been a strange year when we look at the temperatures, but so what? It's still just 1 year, many more to come up. ^^

"And Finns are voracious readers of newspapers."

I think thats correct, Finnish people read alot. At the moment, im working near Vladivostok/Russia and if time I read newspapers at internet, both Finnish and foreign ones.

In addition to this conversation, pls read todays editorial "The tripping point" in Washington post

Glad that the Universities were brought up as well, sad though that the article's focus was on a "Työttömyys Korkeakoulu" (Unemployment High). While it's nice to have wonderful training for 200 art students, most of these do not get employed with those skills and end up in completely different fields altogether.

As for newspapers, yes we read them a lot, but we do lack balance in the media. Be it YLE or Helsingin Sanomat or whatever they're practically tools of propoganda for the SDP whilst centre- to rightwing media is almost non-existant.

Our Universities provide some excellent training but lack on the research side. If you want a good general university degree for Joe Average then this works. But if you want to research cutting-edge stuff, or become a guru in your field, then an american university is by far the better option.

"The success of any nation and people is always tied to literacy, employability, and arts appreciation."

I guess I have failed my country. I can read, I'm well educated, employed, but I don't appreciate "the arts" :-(

"The basic stipend is $325 a month, more if you live off campus outside the university dorms."

What dorms? The University of Turku has dorms? Where? I went to that university and I never saw any dorms, nor have I heard of any other Finnish university having them.

Harri

You can hardly call Helsingin Sanomat a social democratic propaganda newspaper. If you do, you must be one of those few right wing extremist.

As to the quality of Finnish Univercities, I agree to certain point. In U.S there are some high class univercities like Harward or MIT and no Finnish Univercity can compete with these. However, there are some high level technical univercity departments that provide very high quality education.

On the average I can't tell if there are differences in the quality of teaching. I have no experience on U.S univercities.

Centre-to-rightwing-media? Harri, if you leaned towards the left, that is what you would think of Helsingin Sanomat. It seems to me that our leading newspaper has performed quite a feat in leaving practically everybody either moderately displeased or comfortably indifferent.

How about Alma Group then?

The weather is what it is! Same as everywhere in the world. I spent last summer in the Boston area and it wasn't anything to rave about either.

About the dorms...
You know you cannot equate cultures and languages. What you call a dorm, is just housing administratively connected to the university here. There are apartements and whole buildings that have student housing as a part of every university, they are just located around the university town, not right next to the university itself!

Dear Bob and Lucian,

Would you tell more about quotas in higher education for the Fenno-Swedes?

An other interesting topic was to know why every student in order to graduate from the university have to pass a language test in so called "civil servant Swedish".

It seems to be the strategy used by every single Finnish university to meet the globalization challenge of Finland.

How the fact that every single university student is educated to work potentially as a civil servant promotes entrepreneaurship.

Why any Finnish univeristy cannot slip from the mandatory Swedish language education and instead give the students an opportunity to choose an other language,more widely spoken language in stead.

Is there no autonomy of the universities in Finland?

The State Caleder gives for every single Finnish University Finnish and Swedish name with the exception of Åbo Akademi and Svenska Handelshögskolan.

Why these two universities have not Finnish names even if according to the Language Act of Finland the two domestic languages should be in an equal position in the society.

Well, the climate... It's better than British for sure, but yes, no Southern California this. Still, you have to remember the latitude: we can get from -50 to +30 Centigrade - and that's not all; if we were situated in the North American continent we would be as north as the Hudson Bay. From the madness of the Midnight Sun we get to the measly 3 hrs of some sort of daylight in Helsinki in December. It is exhilariting... I was just thinking this on this cool but ever so beautiful June morning. The nature joyously waking up from its winter sleep. Such a feeling! Would not really exchange this for Provence...

This is a goog link to look at things from the Finnish viewpoint. It is in Finnish because Finland is a Finnish state:

http://www.saunalahti.fi/~eiry

Finnish viewpoint to Finland's past and present is different than that of the official stately viewpoint.

The climate is not so drastically different from Chicago. We had freezing temperatures in May. We do not have a long spring or fall. Temperatures in the winter are quite harsh, worsened by a wind chill, and often without the benefit of snow. Although the sun rises in the winter, we often do not see it for weeks through gray clouds. We do not get a midnight sun, but we do usually get a couple of weeks of extreme heat in the summer (35 to 37C or more). There is more to a place than the weather.

Oh, and these anti-Swedish fanatics - about as many - relatively - as John Birchers and about as influential. An ever so tiny but veryloud minority. I mean how could anyone STILL have a inferiority complex about SWEDEN??? For God's sake...

"What dorms? The University of Turku has dorms? Where? I went to that university and I never saw any dorms, nor have I heard of any other Finnish university having them."

A dorm sounds really strange and un-Finnish. There's a very flexible student apartment and housing system, offering student apartments. And they are not "dorms" but single person apartments, family apartments, and for starters sometimes 2 or 3 person apartments after which one can get his or her own single person student apartment. I don't know any university or polytechnic with a "dorm".

I can't say I'm overly concerned about the reduction in state benefit for higher education. Having studied in the UK and taught here in Finland I can say that there are a lot of people who meander through their education and lack the focus that would come with a time limit.

It's nonsense to say you can't afford to live on the state benefit. You get housing support and student support and very reasonable loans. If you work during the Summer there's no problem. Plus you get six years to finish, when realistically anyone could finish in 4.5 if they applied themselves.

I would agree that Finland does not have any elite institutions like the US or UK. Though it should be noted the UK only has two, so per head of population Finland should have about 0.16. If we say the top 20 US institutions are better than Finnish ones, that's about 0.3 we should have to be on a par.

The best universities in the US with a couple of exceptions are private. Harvard has $14 billion of endowments. No-one is going to compete with that unless we have some pan-European instituitions and it's futile to try. That said, it wouldn't hurt for the likes of Jorma Ollila and others to endow a few of the institutions.

That said, it wouldn't hurt for the likes of Jorma Ollila and others to endow a few of the institutions.

Amen. Nokia surely has the Finnish educational system at least partly to thank for its success.

I just graduated with a Master's degree in 5 years time from a Finnish university and I don't think I studied particularly hard either.

It is possible to graduate in 6 years time, not to take a loan or work part-time but to live with the state benefit and summer job earnings. It's just a question of spending habits and making choices. Living with just the state benefit is not possible, but if you add summer job earnings to that, it is.

I was also able to travel abroad during this time and didn't have to eat just macaroni and tunafish day after day so it's not so bad as they say it is!

Having seen how it's like at Michigan, the high school seems to have some minor lacks, though at some points it can be super compared to Finnish counterpart.

I spent year at Dow High, Midland, and was surprised to see how versatile school system can be at USA. As far as I know, Dow High is regarded as 'elite' school (even while it was state-school). I can only imagine how big the difference would be between the schools of Midland and Flint, but what I want to bring up is that Finnish lower-level education lacks when it comes to giving students artistic freedom.

Art is something that only handful of people get to go along with, for between the ages of 8 and 18 people don't get (in my opinion) enough artistic studies. At Dow High I was able to take part on photography, professional AutoCAD -course (such as we could take part when going for university), press-course (working with germanise papermachines), and so on.

Also I found that teachers took their work really personally, since they were professionals where they stood. Common finnish teacher at mid-level or high shcool teaches atleast four different classes and doesn't always even have education for the course. He/she could be a math teacher, who is also teaching history and philosphy... this leads from the fact that small schools have really old teachers, around 40 to 60 years, who have always been teatching at same school. I see some major issues here. Thankfully, what we lack at lower education we take back at higher education, but the system ain't superior.

Just a while ago I was also talking with my friend about the problems of free education. Goverment gives schools money based on amount of students. This brings the problem common to my line of study. I'm studying computer science, where people can finally end up either with programming, cisco-networks, hypermedia, or something we called proacademy (where people start real company while studying). CS is regarded extremely versatile area, thus getting lot's of applicants. Problem is that around 70% of students don't seem to belong to this area, but they applied because they didn't get to other schools during application exams. School doesn't see this as a problem, since they get money for each new student, so they are willing to take ~160 students who would be better off at some place else. Students just decided to choose this mediasexy "oh, I can study 3D-graphics, hypermedia, programming, autocad, illustration...", but they just become general all-around computer users, without real PROFESSIONAL skill at any area. Saddly this applies to most of the students, who finally finish their studies, become unemployed, and end up working at local supermarket or such... Fortunately people who get to study what they really want get employed, if they have the skill for the job...

Well, hope this gave another point of view for our system. It's great, but sadly still has some flaws...

"Oh, and these anti-Swedish fanatics - about as many - relatively - as John Birchers and about as influential. An ever so tiny but veryloud minority."

How are those who force Finns to study Swedish not fanatics and the about 90% majority who oppose that, are ?

It probably is harder to imagine for those americans who have been living there a longer time but maybe such who recently moved from some opressive regime can understand how things are like.

If North Korea was where Canada or Mexico is and had lots more people than now, say 400 million and had huge influence on americans, who needed to study the Korean language, on all levels of school and all the top jobs went to North Korean officials, and americans had no nukes or great military, that would be about the same as the relationship between Finns and their rulers.

Also in Europe, the Swedes (or to make a point, the Viking, of whom Norwegians first had Germans to keep them peaceful and in order and then NATO, just as Germany has) naturally pose no threat and give no problems Brits or Russians in Europe, but they are huge nations, of millions and of huge militarities and nuclear weapons. Finland uses very little money on its military, compared to other countries, has no real defence, so has to do what the swedes (or the viking) say.

The typical university student spends six years or more getting a master's degree.
--
Reason: there is only about half a year of school for them. From October to end of April, with a long Christmas holiday, often 3 weeks or so.
There is maybe 4 lectures a week, with maybe 2 hours of small group work, total maybe 10 hours of time used in university and 2 hours at home for school work. (Varies greatly between what they study, can be 2 hours, not compulsary, or 15 hours, half of which is compulsary and between how long they have been there, first year can be 15 hours a week, then only 1 hour a week)

I hope universities at least start offering better study advisor services.
--
Why ? If the students are too stupid to know how to find work, they should not be in university in the first place.
What they should do, is have good information about the study possibilities in other countries (other eu countries, canada, etc.) in high schools. Some of the school lack all of such information and the state evidently does not want to "lose" its pupils elsewhere, it rather would force all of them to vocational schools after high schools.

"There is maybe 4 lectures a week, with maybe 2 hours of small group work, total maybe 10 hours of time used in university and 2 hours at home for school work."

In what university did you study and how did you even manage to get enough credits to keep your student support with that little studying? Come on now!

"dorm sounds really strange and un-Finnish. There's a very flexible student apartment and housing system, offering student apartments. And they are not "dorms" but single person apartments, family"

The Finnish ones are apparently much higher standard than elsewhere and priced quite low, too. Still most students want to live on their own and have money for that, too.

your student support with that little studying?
--
Little ?
Not all are stupid.

"Still most students want to live on their own and have money for that, too."

Students living in student apartments are living on their own. They're normal rent apartments, just supported by the student housing system. That's one reason why many people tend to move out from home quite early.

"your student support with that little studying?
--
Little ?
Not all are stupid."

Or you're just some humanistic subject student from a small university?

The vocational schools have dorm-like housing.

Or you're just some humanistic subject student from a small university?
--
Maybe some 'humanistic subject students' study very little but it depends what you study, those who study history do have read lots. Well, depends what kind of history. Study art history and there is almost no work at all involved.

"We do not get a midnight sun, but we do usually get a couple of weeks of extreme heat in the summer (35 to 37C or more). "

Whereas people do consider Chicago weather worse than southern Finland weather - last summer it rained almost whole summer here. No more than 20 on the best days. Usually there is a week or more of about 25 highs, not last summer.

"The basic stipend is $325 a month, more if you live off campus outside the university dorms."

Lots of students are so affluent they (really) forget to apply for it even if would get it.

Those with no money mostly do not go to university.

To get there, first you need to go to high school, then apply succesfully, then have enough money for private sector rent unless you go to a place where they have enough places in the university housing for 1st year students (usually any 2nd year students gets a place for whole study-time, but the waiting list prevents many 1st year students from getting one), and the Kela money does not always come on time, so it maybe you need money for 4-6 months before it comes.
No problem for those who are affluent, huge problem for the less so, as only in Helsinki there are jobs available to students in cleaning, pubs, shops, etc.

"Problem is that around 70% of students don't seem to belong to this area, but they applied because they didn't get to other schools during application exams."

It would be very, very easy to fix the system: let everybody study what they want to study. But the politicians like the socialist approach where the state decides the amount of places for each subject so many study 3-4 different ones before they get to study what they wanted and many do not get to study what wanted at all, at the same time there being just who hate the subject - studying just that.

Education system in Finland is being abused to serve political purposes of a small Swedish speaking elité. The Finnish speaking majority is being forced to learn Swedish in order to get any degree or a government occupation. Check out the following population map and tell me if you would consider it justified to demand such on basis of so called bilinguality of Finland. Red areas denote Swedish speaking population and the blue ones denote Finnish speaking population.

http://people.cc.jyu.fi/~pasaojan/pakkoruotsi/kielikartta.gif

A couple of thoughts to add:

Having studied both in Finland and the UK, I believe the quality of universities in Finland is relatively very good. There are major differences in what's emphasised, though - with Finnish tuition concentrating more on research.

With regards to how long it takes to get the degree compared to the UK/US, there are a couple of reasons:

1) many students e.g. in the UK take a gap year but then study for 3 years and graduate at 21. In Finland, people have the freedom to take a break when they want - this academic freedom of course brings its own responsibilities as well.

2) As the (un)employment situation is not great, there is not a strong 'pull' to graduate. This may be getting better but at least a couple of years ago this definitely had a big influence.

3) Related to point 1, people have the opportunity to study almost whatever they want. Although this often lengthens the time spent at the university, it also provides a wider understanding.

Finally, a big thanks to the reporters for the interesting series!

Nice balloons, Pauli. Now shut up already! Or go to the discussion of the first article if you want to continue your agenda. Rasittavaa.

Dear Pete,
Why are you trying to supress speaking about what most Finns see as the worst inequality in their society and still are using a made-up Finnish name ?

There has been plenty of discussion about the issue already. There's no need to pollute every single discussion with it. Those who want to join this rampage can continue the discussion in previous threads. The whole debate is suppressing this great series of articles by Mr. Kaiser and Mr. Perkins.

When no talk at all, expect for some finn-bashing, the languagepolice is happy ?
You do not need to spread disinformation about the situation, "pete", yet you do that.

Education system in Finland is being abused to serve political purposes of a small Swedish speaking elité. The Finnish speaking majority is being forced to learn Swedish in order to get any degree or a government occupation.
***************
They also have a lot more university places for their offspring than Finns do.

Somehow I predicted your answer - it's better to be provocative than to let the discussion die, dontcha think? I'm tired of this language debate and I meant the whole bunch, both pro-Swedish and pro-Finnish. You're assuming that I'm spreading "disinformation" when you don't even know that I couldn't care less which side I should take. But I do care about the articles here! So yeah, both sides of the debate can beat it.

"Languagepolice is happy ?"

Not quite... LOL ;-)

back to the weather, as I truly do love the drastic changes we have here. I know it can be quite cold, but that doesn't make it "bad weather".
I like the sun as much as the next guy, but I'm not a gnaddamned lizard... which is what most Miami folk seem to be ;)

Another thing I like about this country, is that it is very much a unique case compared. A lot of quirks and strangeness, possibly yes, but it all makes us a bit more Finnish.

"back to the weather, as I truly do love the drastic changes we have here. I know it can be quite cold, but that doesn't make it "bad weather"."

There's a nice flash slide show about the four seasons in Virtual Finland:

http://virtual.finland.fi/finfo/english/seasons.html

"as only in Helsinki there are jobs available to students in cleaning, pubs, shops"

Working in cleaning jobs, pubs and shops seems to suit most students, so why are you complaining? And people FORGET to apply their "opintoraha"!!! Now lets just stick to the truth. I have never heard that people would forget to apply money they are entitled to, at least not poor students.

"as only in Helsinki there are jobs available to students in cleaning, pubs, shops"

"Working in cleaning jobs, pubs and shops seems to suit most students, so why are you complaining?"

Yes, they suit most student very well, s/he didn't disagree, s/he said that such jobs seem to be available ONLY IN Helsinki area. Read more carefully what the comment says before you post your rantings.

"as only in Helsinki there are jobs available to students"

I would say they're available in most university towns and cities though, not only Helsinki. Or do you think pubs, places needing cleaning and fast food places are limited only to Helsinki?

As for my experience, the money given by the goverment is rather hard issue. Let's not forget that finnish students get least money when it comes to nordic countries (atleast if we can trust to article written in Ilta-Sanomat). I have heard that danish people get even ~800e / month, and if that is true we are far away from this.

Finnish students can make out living if they work while studying. For an example, I'm getting around ~350e per month, plus load (around 150e per month). These sum to 500e, which is just about the amount I have to spend for my rent (incl. water+electr.), phonebills and internet connection. I also work weekends as DJ at local clubs, and give drum lessons couple of times a week. This way I get around 500e for living, and I'm quite happy with that. Still it can be frustrating, for I'm basically working/studying 8am -> 7pm, and working nights during weekends. This has taken tolls from my studies and there are some mornings when I'm just too tired to go for the first lessons.

Lot's of students are without job, so they have to live just with what they get from goverment, and it ain't much. Some of them are just thinking of studying hard and getting job afterwards, some are afraid that they cannot pay loans after graduation. One problem is also that the system doesn't courage to work and study at the same time, for there are issues to consider when thinking if it's better to study or be unemployed. Students cannot have better income than around 550e/month, or they lose money given for studying.

Goverment is trying to encourage students to take loan and repay it afterwards. This would work it there wasn't risk of being unemployed, but most of us are too afraid to trust the future... Well, I'm not, so I'm going to continue drawing loan for couple of years and think payback afterwards. Loans have nice profits nowdays, and taking ~4000e loan gives some luxury for living, while supporting studying (by giving more time to studying and less for working).

I would prefer support money being raised couple of hundred of bucks, but I guess that goverment is afraid that this money would go "down the throat", knowing how students like to spend their time here ;)

As for language war, I would state just that I can't see the point of forcing people to learn Swedish, when it's clear that it ain't the global business language. Having people specialized on language would bring more jobs for translators, but it looks like we are following the good old "I had to read, so you have to read" -lane. A good example of this nonsense is that foreign students have to study Swedish when studying computer science or business here in Finland. Now where is the point of this, when it's the fact that most of these students are not going to stay in Finland forever, and that they have hard enough time studying Finnish?

Well, couldn't care less, I just passed probably the last Swedish course I ever have to take :)

The tests to get in to an university are quite difficult here in Finland. You have to have good grades and do very succesfully at the tests. There are very good students left out every year even if they had VERY good grades. I think the system could change a little.

I agree with the above - in my view there should be a closer link with good grades and entry to a university. This would encourage people to try and do well in the matriculation exam ('ylioppilastutkinto') and be a reward for that.

On the other hand, I do feel there needs to be a quota for people getting into universities based on an entry exam as well. This helps those who may have e.g. family or health difficulties when they are taking the ylioppilastutkinto.

Pete, so you care about the idealised pr image of Finland they are offering to the world through these articles? You and me know they are writing cheap pap.

Theres two seasons in Finland;
- winter
- roadwork

BTW I studied in a polytechnic, basically did all my "reading" in 2 years, went to work halfway and then lingered with my thesis for a year an a half. I had a classmate finish in 2 years. But it wasn't easy.

My wife has been studying for two years to get her teaching degree and complains that as yet they have not had one class that actually teaches you to teach. She's getting very disgruntled about the system. Finnish students at the University don't seem to have a exact time when they finish their degrees...it can go on for years and there doesn't seem to be any motivation to finish in a reasonable time. Most complain that there won't be jobs availabe when they do finish so they collect their money for the social system and attend one or maybe two classes per week on the average. She think we need a system like in America...paying something will motivate one to finish on time. Sometimes free education is overrated because its not appreciated.

"Finnish students at the University don't seem to have a exact time when they finish their degrees.."

That's called academic freedom. You're supposed to take the responsibility of your studies yourself, universities are not kindergartens. You can study as fast or as slow (e.g. if you have to work at the same time) as you want.

Oh, it must be weird to have Finns fighting about things that are mainly semantics in this blog. But it also shows how these issues are close to us.

As to the previous comments, I can hardly see how the Finnish media could be described as left-winged, when the most popular left-wing party is applying politics that seems more right-winged each day!

"She's getting very disgruntled about the system. Finnish students at the University don't seem to have a exact time when they finish their degrees..."
I have to agree to this in a certain level, but then I definitely believe that the freedom in studies is very important, too. And if a person who has no health or family problems to distract his studies, can't finish his degree with th ehelp that is available, I have to wonder why he is studying in Uni at all! Like the previous comment stated, it is Uni, not kinderdargen, as much as it would make things more pleasant.

But I do have to wonder why people would want students to pay for their studies? How would that be motivating, when the only people studying would be the ones who had enough money for it and thus, not motivated by the the costs.

The only way to make students get their degrees faster is to aid them more - either by increasing the level of the student allowance, or, finding a way to offer students proper flats with reasonable rents to live in.

I read somewhere that it took Linus Torvalds (the creator of Linux) ten years to graduate. The purpose of universities is not to mass produce instant-graduates, but to create people with deep and thorough understanding of their field, perhaps even several different fields. Speed is not everything.

"A good example of this nonsense is that foreign students have to study Swedish when studying computer science or business here in Finland. Now where is the point of this, when it's the fact that most of these students are not going to stay in Finland forever, and that they have hard enough time studying Finnish?"

Well, the language matter derives from other things just as the swedes derive from the viking.

Clubbing baby seals..
"justified a large-scale kill of young seals by calling it research"
http://www.wetlands-preserve.org/?page=seal

..and clubbing Finns (such is usual, but hardly ever on the news)

http://www.suomalaisuudenliitto.fi/case.htm

"According to Amnesty International two Swedish policemen tortured and killed Mr Osmo Vallo on May 30, 1995. The late Osmo Vallo was a Finn."

"Let's not forget that finnish students get least money when it comes to nordic countries"

Prices are cheaper too so the real difference is not that high. Food is cheaper here, rents are cheaper here.

"Well, the climate... It's better than British for sure,"

The Brits have sunshine every day. Maybe also rain every day, but still, compare that to months of no sunshine.

In southern Finland there aren't really "months of no sunshine". Last year I went on holiday to Finland in February and it was sunny all week with bright blue skies and the snow reflected the light. I had to squint for the whole week! Like you say, in Britain the weather changes many times in one day. In Finland it's more stable - if it rains, it rains; if it's sunny, it's sunny. I sometimes miss that stability. In Britain you have to wear millions of layers of clothes every day (or have them with you in any case) just because the weather WILL change!

"The purpose of universities is not to mass produce instant-graduates, but to create people with deep and thorough understanding of their field, perhaps even several different fields. Speed is not everything."

Yep, finns can study almost any field (and as many of them as they want) once they are in an university, and many do. I myself have quite many extra fields that aren't a part of my degree but that create much much deeper understanding than just those subjects that are needed for the degree. I've noticed that most finns tend to have much more knowledge and from much wider areas than their foreign counterparts who know only their specific main area that they studied.

Re academic freedom vs structured programmes with time-limits.

I've studied both in Finland, where you don't necessarily have a clear idea of when you are going to graduate, and in the UK, where the 1st uni degree usually takes 3 years. I must say that the British system worked better for me. It was far more motivating to learn at the same pace with people who were doing the same degree. Peer-support was excellent. Also, the course was well-structured. It must help the lecturers to plan the course better if they have a good idea of the sequence of your studies. There were no major problems in the timetabling either, and the content was cutting-edge. (How do you deal with outdated knowledge if some of your courses were taken 6 years earlier? Many fields move on a lot in 6 years.) Lecturers were very approachable, helpful and interested in you as a person and as a student. My main complaints about the Finnish system are the opposites of the above.

In Finland it was a bit difficult to make friends because there were different people in every course. The lecturers did not want to mix with students, especially not with those who were at the beginning of their studies. Uni of Helsinki has buildings scattered around the city, and the lack of co-ordination in timetabling often made it impossible to get from one seminar to another. Students have to be very independent to study in Finland because they are basically given a big fat book that lists all the courses that are offered in the faculty. They will then more or less have to find out what they should choose, where the courses are held etc. Encouraging independence is a good thing in many ways, and at first the support given to students in the UK seemed a bit over the top, but there are many students in Finland who are flapping their wings for the first couple of years of their studies. Is that a good thing or a bad thing, I don't know? Another strange thing about the Finnish system is that people may end up spending years and years on the dole just revising for the entrance exam! It's very difficult to get into a uni and many people try several times. What's more, people claiming unemployment benefit get more money than students. This can be a bit irritating when it's your friend who didn't get in to the uni on their 1st attempt spending the year reading the entrance exam books for the umpteenth time...err...something must be wrong somewhere.

Anyway, my experience of the Finnish university was some time ago. Maybe things have changed since then.

What I love about the Finnish system is that it doesn't feel ageist. You could feel perfectly normal starting your first degree in your late twenties. That is very invigorating in today's world.

Also, I think that it's very important to have places on this planet where people can spend a long period of time developing their ideas. Universities worldwide are being pressurised more and more to show their value to the society/economy etc. I'm not convinced that the measures used to indicate this are always the best ones. So, in theory I would support the Finnish model, but in practice I think it needs tweaking.

"I've noticed that most finns tend to have much more knowledge and from much wider areas than their foreign counterparts who know only their specific main area that they studied."

That's more to do with the comprehensive system at primary and secondary levels than the higher ed. In many countries children start specialising already in the primary school, so they end up having huge gaps in their general knowledge. It's also to do with the culture - Finns would appear a bit stupid to other Finns if they didn't have a broad knowledge base.

When it comes to more advanced levels, I've met Finns who shockingly don't seem to be able to make coherent arguments. They may take courses in many subjects but when you try to discuss something with them you get a lot of "...or was it like this..oh, I can't remember, I took the test so long time ago..." I think that if you go deeper into a subject you will have to develop clearer arguments in your head about the main concepts. Of course it's important to have width, so that you can check your thinking against a broader picture, but it's also important to have depth so that you know what you are talking about in the first place!

"but it's also important to have depth so that you know what you are talking about in the first place!"

I agree fully. The depth comes from the studies that are necessary to get a master's degree. If you want to leave your studies there like it's done it most countries, you can do so, it's up to you.

But if you want to develope yourself, you can broaden your knowledge on wider range of areas by using the Finnish possibility to study virtually as much and as many areas as you want in addition to your main degree.

"That's more to do with the comprehensive system at primary and secondary levels"

I agree also on that, it has a lot to do with that as well.

I often wish that the journalists would return to an insight that appeared in the initial post having to do with the Lutheran faith being the undergirding of Finland and most of the Nordic societies. It's a different theology than the Calvinist one that is predominant in America. Firstly, Martin Luther was an academic. So, he set the universities free from theology. In Calvinism everything is subordinate to theology. In Lutheranism, the separate fields are free to go their own way. In other words there is no Lutheran art, or Lutheran mathematics, or Lutheran agriculture. Freedom of inquiry is absolute, and not held back by the Papacy, or by strict interpretations of the Bible. I think this accounts for much of the freedom of thought in the Nordic countries which makes such a large part of their reputation and gives them so much freedom and success.

Many people today don't think the church is important in Finland but for the last 500 years it has been terribly important and it continues to be so in an underground way throughout the Nordic countries. You let the Lutheran faith go at your own peril. The doctrine of two kingdoms will be replaced by some other theology if you don't hold on to it, and I think you will be sorry. Many of the young people are attracted to Buddhism or in some extreme cases to Satanism. People want to experience higher states.

The only place in America we get much about Lutherans is in Garrison Keillor's Lake Woebegone where all the children are above average. This still describes Finland. So in a sense the journalists have travelled to Lake Woebegone -- the Ur-model of Lake Woebegone.

It even has the lakes.

I think that traditionally what has made this society so functional and so decent has been the Lutheran faith. Young people think that technology is the source of their values, but the deep wisdom is in your churches and is in the hands of very competent theologians. Finnish Lutherans are leading the world in research and in ideas.

Whereas Calvinism wants to turn the whole world Christian, Luther said he'd rather have a competent Muslim than a crazy Christian in office.

I'm only a lay person. There are many great churches in Finland where much deeper minds can be found. Kalliokirkko in Helsinki, the great cathedral in Tampere with the snake mural on the ceiling, the wonderful Alvar Aalto church in Seinajoki -- there are so many. Even the smaller vilages have brilliant pastors. The pastor in my village in Kitinoja is the one who returned me to the faith. His name is Matti Kristola and I think he's now in the church at Lapua. It's an alternative source of teaching -- outside of the university -- but there's deep wisdom in those churches, and to neglect it might be to neglect the real source of Finland's greatness.

So many are looking to a higher salary, or to a bottle of Koskenkorva, or to whatever, for a source of meaning and truth. Isn't this a case of looking for love in all the wrong places?

I agree and disagree on many comments posted previously. I have experienced both the finnish and US educational systems. First of all, my finnish polytechnic education was good. My USA university education not so good. Sometimes it was like having flasbacks from finnish highschool. I had no trouble passing courses and getting excellent grades. I did the bachelors level. Everybody tells me that you'll notice the real difference on masters level, so I'm counting on that!! There are differences on professors and their teaching methods. I had some excellent professors and some really bad, who test their students using multiple choice, true and false, fill in the blanks in the university!! (it's a shame that you have to pay for this). I know for sure that's unheard in finnish educational system which emphasizes reading and writing skills. I can't recall any test in Finland since my 7th grade where I was able to fill in blanks or have multiple choices to choose from (except for the language studies reading comrehension tests). Anyways, what comes to the academic freedom, I loved it in Finland. It is your choice and resposibility and I think no one over 18 should not need to be pampered and told what to do. Here in US you have some, but since I'm bounded by all the immigraton laws, cannot tell how free you really are. But I know that academic counseling is more appreciated here than in Finland and the students pretty much take the classes that the counselors think they should (maybe they shoud try it in Finland instead of degreasing the aided months). Last comment about the student aid, it is a shame that it is a lowest in all the Scandinavia and now they decresed the months to 50 too. I know that lots of students need to work while in school in Finland, because there is no way to pay your rent and support your self with the money you get from the gov. Everyone cannot live in the dorms and I don't think the money is even enought for the dorm room?! (not sure never lived in one). Anyway gov. forces you to take loan..what's that all about, they should pay it back too since they cannot even offer jobs for everyone!
And what comes to the last comment, I think there is some truth about the connection between Lutheran church and finnish lifestyle (even we don't admid it). We appreciate Lutheran values, hard work,education ect. we have seperated church from the science which gives us a freedom and competitive advange to some other contries. Equality applies to everything, which is not the case in most of the places on this world. That is just the beginning....

"So many are looking to a higher salary, or to a bottle of Koskenkorva, or to whatever, for a source of meaning and truth. Isn't this a case of looking for love in all the wrong places?"

Nope, I think people are searching meaning and truth from the same place they found it before Luther even saw daylight: nature. But true, Lutheran ethics have shaped people and society.

Kirby Olson's comment about the importance of the Lutheran Church in Finland deserves a brief comment. Indeed, it deserves more than that, but I am not sure we'll have time to go into this subject in detail.

From what we have seen and heard in Finland, Kirby is absolutely correct. Lutheran traditions, the "protestant work ethic," which is really a Lutheran work ethic I think, Lutheran honesty and directness--all these are important aspects of Finnish life. We attended a Sunday service last week in Tampere; it was sparsely attended. Finns say they don't go to church, but they do believe, and they do join the church, and then pay a church tax to support it. And Luthern ministers perform most of the weddings and funerals in the country.

I'll try to get more about the church into the diary before we leave, but for now this will have to do. Thank you, Kirby.

It should be noted, however, that many finns react strongly if you suggest that religion is what has built the succesful society. Religion is a private matter, not to be pushed on to others - I think that seeing it in a such way is a good base for building a healthy society and lowering the risk of fanatics gaining a foothold in power.

Although many observation made by Kirby Olson are true, he sees things through his own view of the world, affected by his own religious stand. At least that is how I interpret it. I must say though, that I wish more christians were like you, Kirby, as you give an intelligent and tolerant picture of yourself.

It should be noted, however, that many finns react strongly if you suggest that religion is what has built the succesful society. Religion is a private matter, not to be pushed on to others - I think that seeing it in a such way is a good base for building a healthy society and lowering the risk of fanatics gaining a foothold in power.

Although many observation made by Kirby Olson are true, he sees things through his own view of the world, affected by his own religious stand. At least that is how I interpret it. I must say though, that I wish more christians were like you, Kirby, as you give an intelligent and tolerant picture of yourself.

Although the evangelic-lutherian church has had a strong influence in the finnish culture, it definetely isn't the only power at work here. I believe that in 50 years ago or so it was more social pressure than genuine faith that made the churches fill every sunday. Now that the finnish society is turning more open, the result is visible. Many of those who were children or young adults in those times are not really religious. They belong to the church out of habit, mainly, but only attend to funerals, marriages, naming of children and sometimes christmas services. Young people are even more secular.

I think this is a good thing, that social norms no longer force people to believe or pretend to believe. There is more room for difference, more tolerance on all levels. People should be free to believe in what they want, whether it is science or religion. I know a plenty of people who are atheists and whose only god is science - I must say that their work ethos isn't any worse than those who believe in the christian god.

The finnish lutherian church is in a crisis of sort right now. The society is opening up and the pressure for the church to do the same is great. They can no longer just threathen people with Hell as they could a hundred years ago, nor are they anymore married to the crown. The most conservative priests refuse to work with female priests. The issue of homosexuality is causing a even stronger split. I wouldn't be surprised if the main church would split in to several factions during the next decade or so. bob kaiser, wouldn't this be an interesting viewpoint if you are going to write about the finnish church?

Kirby, you noted that young people are interested in Buddhism in a manner that hints it to be bad for the society. Why? I'm not an expert, but from what I know, buddhists seek harmony with oneself and the surrounding world. What comes to Satanism, yes, it is a philosophy that I don't prefer either - however, you should note the difference between satanism as a philosophy and the deranged worship of satan as the opponent of christian god. They are a different bunch - many satanists don't even believe in christian mythos. likewise, it is not enough only to have a main religion that talks about social equality. islam, in its heart, is a very equal religion that talks about taking care of the poor. yet the arab world is a very inequal place. politics, cultural traditions and pure chance all play a card in the grand game that shapes up national values.

I believe the building blocks of finnish society are much more diverse than just religion. the spirit of taking care of those who can't care for themselves comes from somewhere else - you shouldn't ignore the strong spread of socialism and communism in finland in the beginning of the last century either. Lutherien work ethic was actually obstacle to the construction of wellfare society. according to it the value of each human being comes from the work he does - thus those people who do not work, have no value. receiving money from the goverment was seen as a horrible social stigma. i'm glad things have changed. after all, more often than not the unemployed and otherwise unfortunate are not responsible for their blight.

what will happen when the influence of the church diminishes? i really hope it will lead in to a better society, if not stay the same. if some people turn in to fanatical christian sects or other kind of mysticism, it is their choice and likely has no effect for the society as a whole. if the lutheran church was still strong, they'd just get their fanaticism kicks from there.

sorry for all the missing capital letters, something wrong with the shift keys and caps lock of this keyboard. didn't feel like changing a computer in middle of a post.

I have always been an atheist, which is to say that I was brought up that way and religious ideas have never played a part in my thinking. At school kids usually study RE, but a small group of children study "elämänkatsomustieto" instead (a bit like philosophy). That's what I did too. (Your parents must have the initiative to opt out from church and RE education. Most people automatically belong to these, and many stay members only because they can't be bothered to opt out.) So, my experience of growing up and living in Finland has been very non-religious. But I have never, ever felt that I stand out from crowd in any way. The reason being that religion really is a very private thing to Finns. I don't know if I've ever managed to persuade a fellow Finn to open up and describe their thoughts about God etc. (Apart from a couple of fanatics who can't stop talking about such things!) I wouldn't know if my best friends were very religious, or not at all! And, at least in the part of Helsinki where I grew up, it was very uncool to "admit" that you believed in God, whereas the atheists were thought of as cool. I always thought this was a pity, because I would have liked to know what it feels like being religious. Anyway, my point is that it will be a very difficult task to write an article about the Lutheran values impacting our society, which is what Mr Kaiser is planning to do. Sure, in the mists of time religion played a major role. For example, Finns were not allowed to marry until they were able to read some parts of the bible. But whether Finns even then thought really deeply about the Lutheran values, or whether they just wanted to get intimate with their bride/groom ;) is another matter. You might also want to consider the fact that Finns used to be shamans and pagans up until quite recently. And, on the other hand, most countries had a religious backbone say one hundred years ago, not just Finland. So why would the religion explain Finnish ways of life better than in other places?

Another atheist here. Most of my family, relatives and friends are atheists too. Religion certainly doesn't have anything to do with the Finnish culture or success, it was brought here (by sword, as usual with religions) quite recently compared to most other countries. Nature is the real source of energy and peace to Finns.

Hi,

I noticed that some people are making comparisons here, among other things, between universities in Finland and in the UK. I cannot actually speak for Finnish universities but I did my Masters (in Physics) in the UK and I have to say I was not terrible impressed. To start with, the computers were running on Windows 3.1 in 1999 and the facilities were otherwise antiquated as well. The teaching methods were particularly bad as I spent 4 years as a Xerox photocopier (we made jokes about this with my peers) copying lecture notes from the whiteboard word for word while the lecturer was writing them and reading them aloud. We had about 10 hours of university related stuff a week for about 6 months of the year. One tutorial a week with tutors who seemed unable to explain their subject in depth was all we got in form of student support. And the university I went to was supposed to be one of the best in the country (note though that they all seem to claim to be either the best in the world or in the country at least.) I think there may be some myths flying around about English universities...

"I think there may be some myths flying around about English universities... "

And what are those then?? Something like this perhaps:

"finns...have much more knowledge...than their foreign counterparts"

There can very easily be myths flying around about Finnish Universities too unless we are careful.

(BTW, I studied in 3 UK universities and would rate my bachelor's course as excellent. Master's course was less so. Also, the uni with the best reputation was not the best one in my opinion.)

"finns...have much more knowledge...than their foreign counterparts"

A personal impression based on a sample size of a few hundred different people.

"And the university I went to was supposed to be one of the best in the country (note though that they all seem to claim to be either the best in the world or in the country at least.) I think there may be some myths flying around about English universities..."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, doctoral theses aren't even defended publicly against opponents in english universities, but just accepted in a faculty's staff meeting.

"Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, doctoral theses aren't even defended publicly against opponents in english universities, but just accepted in a faculty's staff meeting."

I think it's true that they are not publicly defended (in Finland anyone can go an listen to a PhD viva). However, you have to defend in front of opponents from different Universities, not your own. The opponent has to be a specialist in the field and sometimes comes from places like America. So, no, it's not just decided in the faculty. And the viva lasts for 2 hours or so. (I don't know how long it lasts in Finland.) Also, your thesis can be failed in this viva, or you may be asked to make corrections. I believe that in the Finnish one you know beforehand that it has been accepted (you can order champagne to the audience!) so I guess the Finnish viva is just a formality, is that true?

The attitude that Finnish degrees are far better than other degrees sucks and it's counter-productive. Are we so afraid to be open-minded about other countries' higher education systems and maybe learn something from them? (There is always something to be learned from different systems...well nearly always anyway.) My friends in Finland think that it would be impossible to convert a foreign degree to a Finnish degree. However, I compared the reading lists and course details and they are very similar. Same books etc. And having talked to my Finnish friends who have done the equivalent degree in Finland, I'm convinced that their understanding is no better. The main difference is that Finns stretch their studies over 6 years, whereas in the UK you do 3 + 1 (to get master's).

Someone said earlier that in the US students answer multiple-choice questions in exams. This does not happen in the UK. In my subject we had to write 24 essays every year (about 20 pages each) and take 8 exams (3 hrs) with essay type answers + dissertation in the final year.

Finally, I must say that I trust the Finnish doctors & engineers more than those in other countries. (Sorry!) The thing is that once a Finn decides to do something, they take professional pride in doing it properly. Maybe this attitude works particularly well in practical jobs.

Well, I'm quite surprised how fruitful this conversation has been, and would like to thank every fellow finn sharing their viewpoints on various things. It's also kind of fun to read about self when some non-finn describes our behaviour and livestyle, since usually we'r not able to see things the sameway (though I'm not saying it's wrong viewpoint anyways).

I really enjoyed this religious point of view. I have lots of atheist friends, but I think that they would agree that religional basis has had effect on their overall living, as does having certain political structure to live on (even if person refuses to take part on politics).

Certainly Lutheran work ethics have great impact to the way the finns live. Finns are proud for having some basic values and I see direct link here with saying "koti, uskonto ja isänmaa", which directly translates to "home, religion and fatherland". This old saying was greatly valued at mid 50's, but since then some have been regarding it little bit extreme for reasons hard to fit in here. Still, people seem to live these three values: "home, HONESTY, and fatherland (in lesser or greater degree)". As religion has lost some of it's glory, lutheran society has left it's traces to Finnish society.

Someone here said it is hard to get into the universities in Finland. As it may be so in some (maybe most) programs, there are some programs that are quite easy to get into. For example Math, Physics and Chemistry. To get to Physics program in Oulu University you need to get an E in Math in the matriculation examination of the Finnish high school (this can be quite hard) OR get 30 or more points combined from Physics and Chemistry. The maximum points is 48 and it's easy to score above 30 if you concentrate on Physics and Chemistry. Plus there are the entrance exams of course.

There has been a lot of discussion about religion here apparently (sorry, didn't have the patience to read through all those loooong posts). I (and my family and pretty much everyone I know) belong to the Ev.lut. church but none of us "take it seriously" meaning that we only go to church for weddings, funerals etc. Basicly we feel uncomfortable when people start to speak religiously and saying "Thank God" and stuff like that. And we find the idea of even considering the creationism to be a scientific theory (rather than an allegorical story) ridiculous.

Religion certainly doesn't have anything to do with the Finnish culture or success, it was brought here (by sword, as usual with religions) quite recently compared to most other countries
++++++++
Yes, but Finland is more religious (probably just because of the sword) than other Nordic or most EU countries.
Not as religious as u.s. or ireland.

All the universities are state universities in Finland.

Therefore there is no real autonomy of the universities.

Every university student have to pass a language course in Swedish and you cannot replace it with any other language.

The language course in Swedish has a role to prepare every single university graduate to work at the state administration.

There fore every student is prepared to speak Swedish which is a must if you want a government job in Finland.

The role of the universities is to prepare everybody for the government jobs. Therefore there is hardly any graduate who starts own business.

The aforementioned system guarantees that no Nobel prize will be given to any researcher of a Finnish university because the graduates are prepared for other tasks and aims.

These new improvements in Finnish education and governments attempts to shorten the study time are not welcomed by some of the university staff. At least in our department (just graduated) researchers, assistants and professors were all complaining that they needed more time to do science instead of increasing the time to educate students. There were no fulltime teachers but rather a whole lot of part-time scientists and part-time teachers.

"To get to Physics program in Oulu University you need to get an E in Math in the matriculation examination"

The grades in Finland from highest to lowest:
L, E, M, C, B, A

Here are still lot of christians in this coyntry,for example every summer comes over 70 000 people together to hear Gospel for few days in "Lestadiolaisten suviseurat",in same time there can be over 30 000 people together in "Herättäjäjuhlat" in other town.Like Bob said people dont go to church but they do believe.They can listen services from radio,we have an excellent christian radio channel also.Thanks to Bob and Lucian,God save you and all readers.

Yeah. That sums it up. In a country of over 5 million, 100 000 attend a religious summer event. And those are not Lutheran.

The high number of people in those festivals is explained by the large number of children attending, as the people belonging to those religious sects often get lots of kids due to their religious beliefs concerning sex.

Hi again, I feel that I need to attend to the following:

"I think there may be some myths flying around about English universities... "

And what are those then?? Something like this perhaps:

"finns...have much more knowledge...than their foreign counterparts"

There can very easily be myths flying around about Finnish Universities too unless we are careful.

I do not subscribe to the view that finns have more knowledge than their foreign counterparts. I think that idea is ridiculous and I think we could do without such nationalist myths.
I did not comment on Finnish universities since I have not studied in them. I wanted to provide a picture of a British university experience from a Finnish point of view for comparison that was taking place here.

Thanks Rainbow. I was gonna include the grading system but somehow it slipped my mind.

Every university student have to pass a language course in Swedish and you cannot replace it with any other language.

The language course in Swedish has a role to prepare every single university graduate to work at the state administration.

There fore every student is prepared to speak Swedish which is a must if you want a government job in Finland.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
One wonders, why ? When the Germans had their thoughts about the jewish minority, Swedes had the same thought about Finns and other minorities in their country. Happily Germans did not believe the Swedes considered Finns a lesser race. Better not think about what could well have happened.
Still there are really negative stories about Finns in Swedish newspapers. Finns are called drunks etc. (non-swedish newspapers say, "danes sometimes call swedes 'our fourlegged friends'", because of the like of the drinks)
About five or six years ago there still was a nazi flag situated in Lund university so that every student saw it. They said it was about "history, that someone lifted it to the pole of uni" - no matter why it was there, it was there. At the same time neonazis would put their sign of "88" in various places.

"The students pay no tuition and the state pays them to study. The basic stipend is $325 a month, more if you live off campus outside the university dorms. Each student is entitled to receive this stipend for 55 months, just enough to cover six academic years."

The money should only be given to those with not rich parents. Now what happens is that those who could afford university anyways go there and get the money and those who cannot do not go there as the money is not enough to live with.

"The academy gets about 2,000 applicants for fewer than 200 places."

About the same in other universities too but that is misleading as many try to get to 2-4 places and several years in a row.

"I asked Risto about a society that could support this sort of institution so lavishly. "Finnish society is very good in that way," he said, after pausing for a moment to think about the implications of my question. "You know," he said, "there's no real contradiction between [supporting] health care and culture... It's self evident for me" that money would be available for the school."

Afford to go to university = can afford private health care too so does not matter how the public one is.

"The high number of people in those (religious) festivals is explained by the large number of children attending"

Also foreigners coming from Sweden etc.

"The money should only be given to those with not rich parents. Now what happens is that those who could afford university anyways go there and get the money and those who cannot do not go there as the money is not enough to live with."

Student grants and the student housing system guarantees equal rights to everyone. That way students are quite independent from their parents (both financially and psychologically). How many around 18-20 y/o student could pay tens of thousands per semester for education etc.? And what if some student's family is rich, but not willing to support him/her for some reason?

"as the money is not enough to live with."

Bull. I have many friends who lives solely on the student grant and housing support.

"The money should only be given to those with not rich parents. Now what happens is that those who could afford university anyways go there and get the money and those who cannot do not go there as the money is not enough to live with."

That's ridiculous. What if your rich parents aren't willing to pay your education?

There are differences, that's for sure. But after reading all the comments I think there is no point to compare Finnish and other universities in general. I am convinced that there some universities in U.S have very high class teaching and they have a great reputation. Finnish universities can not compete with Harward etc.

When I was studying it was impossible to graduate with a master's degree at the age of 21 as someone wrote earlier about British universities. I started school at the age of 7 and I had to do 12 years compulsory studies before applying to university. I was 19 at that time. Then one compulsory year in the army and I was 20.

I actually studied for six years, and I can call only one of those years full time studying. After six years I was only missing my "thesis" (Don't know what is the real english word) to graduate as M.Sc and I went to work full time. It actually took me four more years to finnish that. So my complete study time was about ten years. The company I worked for knew the situation, but nobody was not interested in the piece of paper I get from the university. Finally the pressure was too much (parents and relaticves asking "when do you graduate") and I wrote the thesis.

And the teachers? My math teacher was extraordinary great. He never had a piece of paper with him and he knew everything by heart. He even knew when the students did not understand and started to write the partial differential equations again explaining everything. Then I really fully understood what the teacher is talking about. Great personality.

And what about heat transfer and fluid dynamics. My prof told that "only five person in the world fully understands what I am now explaining. We meet twice a year". Yes I almost believe what he said.

On the other hand I had some lousy persons, reading directly from the books.

So let's not argue whos dad is the best. Every university is different and most of them have their good and bad sides

"The grades in Finland from highest to lowest:
L, E, M, C, B, A"

Should be added; the "matriculation examination grades"
L=laudatur
E=eximia (rather new grade)
M=magna cum laude approbatur
C=cum laude approbatur
B=lubenter approbatur
A=approbatur
- and of course there is I=improbatur, which is failed. Someone with some latin can decipher what "with the big applause" means, but if a Finnish student gets "straight A's" in his exam he surely isn't smiling. The latin grades are a remnant of the time the matriculation examination was the entrance test to the Helsinki University. "Regular" school grades run from 4-10 4 being "Fail" and 10 being "Excellent"; whereas vocational and polytecnics give grades 1-5, one being a passing grade and 5 the best. So having "all fives" in your report card is a bit different if you are in what school. These days some old-fashioned parents get frustrated with the lower grades only getting verbal assesments, as they're more used to knowing the "good and bad" scale of 4-10 from their chilhood.

and universities rank students from one to three, with 1- or 1 being the lowest grade you can pass the test with, and 3 being the best grade, very hard to achieve.

Members of middle-class reporting how middle-class lives in an other country.

"and universities rank students from one to three, with 1- or 1 being the lowest grade you can pass the test with, and 3 being the best grade, very hard to achieve."

Starting from the next fall, this will be changed to 1-5 scale like in polytechnics.

Until very recently it was possible to start a master's degree in Finland without having first completed a bachelor's degree. That tells you all there is to know about the real quality of a Finnish master's degree!

I currently work in both a School and a College in Finland. Before coming to Finland I had read all the hype about the wonderful high achieving Finnish education system. I was looking forward to it. The reality of the situation is somewhat different.

One of the courses I teach on at the college is a new style bachelor's degree programme. Two thirds of this course is based on the IB- A pre-university qualification! What a nerve! How can anyone claim that this course is a bachelor's degree?

This year I came across two part-time unqualified Finns employed as teachers at the college that I work at. Both are in the process of completing their master's degree thesis. I've been asked to read through drafts of their work and boy have I been shocked at how poor they have been. Its no exageration to say that some of my A Level students back in Britain could have produced something twice as good.

At the school that I work at (in the top 10 in terms of getting kids into Finnish universities) there is a lot of wasted talent. Students are left to just get on with it. Most don't. Not much work gets done as a result. There needs to be a pastoral system. Competitive school sport doesn't exist either. They just have games lessons- They don't have school ice hockey teams that play in leagues made up of other school teams.

What I've been most surprised at is how bad the students at the school are at using I.T. At the age of 18 only one out of the 20 students I teach could use Excel. None of them could use PowerPoint

In conclusion, I think that Finns are prone to overhype their achievements. Most Finns I meet for the first time always seem to ask the same set of non-questions

"Finns are very honest people don't you think?" We are also very modest aren't we?"

The reality of the situation is that Finns are very conscious about trying to create positive PR for their country- even if it means setting out to deliberately give foreigners a false impression of Finland by being economical with the truth.

About education, it is true that we get to study a wide scope of subjects. Wider than in some other places; sometimes is shocking to see people that do not seem to have even a basic grasp of things that we consider to be general knowledge.

Now wait... I'm not finished yet..

I'm also quite familiar with "I do not remember this or that, anymore! OR The exam was so long ago." Still, I suppose the system consentrates on a wider grasp of information rather than on details.

And yes, I do believe that public speaking and oratory skills are not something we excell in!

Again, I do not understand how we got to be the top dog in Math! I mean if you take the short course, at least, and watch one of those quiz shows for children in the US, you are left completely clueless with the Math questions.

That way students are quite independent from their parents (both financially and psychologically)
--
Not really. It is common to visit parents every weekend even if live far apart. And bring back a whole trunk of food, toilet-paper, everything needed. And the clean clothes.

"Not really. It is common to visit parents every weekend even if live far apart. And bring back a whole trunk of food, toilet-paper, everything needed. And the clean clothes."

"_quite independent_"

That's called living. I wouldn't except a student to discard his family as soon as he gets his own apartment. But students are independent from their parents in the sense that they don't pay tens of thousands per semester for their kid's education, living etc.

"And the clean clothes."

Very few would bother to carry their clothes around when student apartment houses have excellent facilities for washing them locally.

"Again, I do not understand how we got to be the top dog in Math! I mean if you take the short course, at least, and watch one of those quiz shows for children in the US, you are left completely clueless with the Math questions."

Excuse me? I think you turned the position upside down. I've never seen as weak maths skills anywhere than in the US.

"Until very recently it was possible to start a master's degree in Finland without having first completed a bachelor's degree. That tells you all there is to know about the real quality of a Finnish master's degree!"

Nice try. Bachelor is automatically a part of the Master's degree and included in it. In addition to that, most students take advantage of the possibility to study anything and as much as they want, so in reality their masters degrees are much longer than elsewhere.

"One of the courses I teach on at the college is a new style bachelor's degree programme."

Colleges are polytechnic institutes, upper vocational schools. Universities are academic institutes.

"What I've been most surprised at is how bad the students at the school are at using I.T. At the age of 18 only one out of the 20 students I teach could use Excel. None of them could use PowerPoint"

I wonder why that is? Many people I know are a bit more skilled to be windows users. They use Linux/Unix. Why would they use office tools like excel or powerpoint? Come on.

"The reality of the situation is that Finns are very conscious about trying to create positive PR for their country- "

What I have to witness constantly are Finns who are really too modest. Say anything positive about Finland, and you'll find tons of people who are ready to deny it.

The quality of education should not be judged based on just a few sample points, and in particular, the judgements should not be extended over unrelated fields. I received my BSc in physics(1972) and MSc in engineering from a prestigious institute in the US, and PhD degree in France. Having said that, the quality of education in my own fields in Finland appears excellent.

Of course, my views are a somewhat tilted as my daughter is just giving finishing touches to her PhD thesis in Finland and is getting married to her long time Finnish boyfriend in three weeks.

J-F M

Nigel, if you have encountered unqualified teachers, please report it to the ministry of education. This is serious, the entire reputation of the Finnish education is at risk!

Your experience clearly demonstrates that not only are the Finnish IT-illiterate but the teachers are incompetent as well. And no, we Finns are not honest, we cheat constantly, just like everywhere else and to us being modest... ha ha ha hahahahaha... well, let's just say you really shouldn't believe everything you read...

"Nigel, if you have encountered unqualified teachers, please report it to the ministry of education."

And since he can't tell the difference between polytechnic colleges and universities, he should start from himself.

Question: What is an outgoing Finn?

Answer: Someone who looks down at the **other** guy's shoes when he talks! hahhaahaha

"Answer: Someone who looks down at the **other** guy's shoes when he talks! hahhaahaha"

Booooring and old. Invent something new and more accurate.

I am a 100% Finn but I believe Sweden was the savior of Finland. We should give thanks for Sweden every day. That is why, on selected days in the year, I hang Swedish Flag from my window and say out loud "Sweden is great, long live Sweden!" It feels good. I wish I was Swede. My fellow Finns are prejudiced and filled with drink.

Proud Finn/Swede! When did you get out of the hospital? I am do glad, I shouldn´t have broken your arm. And I am sorry about the flag, but it burned while you were away.

Back to the point where the religion was discussed: I think that Finns are still quite religious people. Only in Finland the religion has "sunk" deep inside of the people, to a level not normally even conscious. Also it is very private thing, not discussed openly (some exceptions thou). I don't attend the church but I do know that I believe. And the Lutheran faith has shaped this nation in many ways, no use denying.

Evolution in Finland on the other hand is not a matter of discussion or dispute, but just a fact. Yet the two do not exclude one another, but can coexist. Anybody trying to suggest in Finland that evolution is just an other theory, would be recognized as a zealot right away and ignored. Finnish religion is quite flexible in its approach to the science.

But you also should always include the pagan roots in the finish culture. The relationship that Finns have with nature, dark woods, silent lakes in the summer night, the archipelago, has definitely some atavistic flavours in it.

"But you also should always include the pagan roots in the finish culture."

I actually agree with everything Petteri said, also the pagan roots (although I prefer to call it "old religion").

Nigel,

You seem to be one of these negative Brits who have their eyes closed in their own country but can find things to criticise elsewhere. Maybe you should back to look at some of the inner city schools in the UK...

Nigel,

Too bad you have managed to see the dark, true side of Finnish education and IT knowledge. It's a wonder we have been able to keep up the facade for such a long time making the world believe that we actually are good at something. OK folks, thanks to Nigel the play is over. I think we could dismantle the scene now and return to our cosy caves which probably are still warm.

Comment on the lack of competitive sports you have also geniusly noticed. Many students actually are involved in competitive sports but they will not have access to university just because they are good athletes like in some other countries.
There are plenty of non-competitive sports to enable broad participation because not everyone can be a sensational quarterback. While staying abroad I have noticed that chances to continue my non-pro team sport hobbies are very limited because students here play seriously or not at all. We Finns like to play for fun, physical excercise & team spirit, and not just for victory.

Dearest A Finn,
You are example of obnoxious finn. Sweden is culturally and historically more relevant thatn finland, said to say. You are filled with drink which clouds your ability to admit finland owes much of its allegiance to Sweden.

"You are example of obnoxious finn. Sweden is culturally and historically more relevant thatn finland, said to say."

En liten fågel satt en gång och sjöng i furuskog.
Han hade sjungit natten lång, men dock ej sjungit nog. Helan går, sjung hoppfaderallanlallanlej!

Smells like a typical Swede!

If my memory serves, one of my teachers at the Tampere University (an American) once said that when Finns enter University (after "lukio" our upper secondary school), they are academically at the same level as Americans after 2 year in American University.

I might have misunderstood him, though, so if anybody has first hand knowledge/experience on this...?

Dear Finn/Swede,if Finland copies Sweden's system that means:
-No higher education in a minority language
-No mandatory education in a minority language
-No public service in a minority language
-No quotas for the minorities in the higher education
-Constitution has no word of minorities
-The state is monolingual
-No autonomous reagion for the minority
-No army unit for a minority
-No own departements for the minorities in the state administration
-No officially bi-lingual municipalities
-No own municipalities for the minorities
-The state recognizes the existence of the minorities just in the lower legislation
-No street-signs in a minority language

I just wonder how a Finn/Swede can admire Swedish culture and its achievements!

If the Finns get an idea to copy Sweden's system in a minority politics it is the end for the Swedish speaking minority in Finland!

Or is it a question of double standards between Finland and Sweden.

Dear Finn/Swede,you have to be thankful that the Finns have not copied Sweden's system.

True, two first years a of an American Bachelor's degree is the equivalent of the information and knowledge gained by the Finns in the last two years of lukio.

"they are academically at the same level as Americans after 2 year in American University."

Those who have to money to go study in an american college, as unlike in other nordic countries, the finnish government does not give a very cheap loan unless they get high pay, they do not even have to pay it back - , but only about the same you get if you studied in finland, - to do just that with, often start from the 2nd or 3rd year. Depending a lot on college.

"True, two first years a of an American Bachelor's degree is the equivalent of the information and knowledge gained by the Finns in the last two years of lukio."

And since most of them don't study more than the bachelor's degree, that's about everything they learn.

I have gone through a senior year in an American high school. The most astonishing thing was the narrow spectre of subjects. Well, at least in that school. No geography, just American history, no world history, not a foreign language program (just German and French, and even those only if you chose, and very few did), no philosophy, no psychology, very few people in maths and physics classes, and so on. People could practically graduate just knowing English (American) literature and American history. The good sides were that it was quite fun (lots of hobby-style thigs), and I could masochistically have that dreaded public speaking class where the teacher always encouraged and applauded me for standing in front of people and opening my mouth. Also the arts teacher was very good.

And since most of them don't study more than the bachelor's degree, that's about everything they learn.
--
You learn nothing in Finnish universities either.
You do memorize lots of things from some narrow subject.

"You learn nothing in Finnish universities either.
You do memorize lots of things from some narrow subject."

You don't "memorize" things in academic institutes, you learn analytical and critical thinking. If all you did was memorizing things, you shouldn't have studies in an university in the first place. You're supposed to take the responsibility of your studies yourself.

And in addition to the necessary master's studies, most Finns use the possibility to study as much as they want (from different areas), and thus have often much longer and broader master's degrees than in other countries where the degrees are limited.

"Until very recently it was possible to start a master's degree in Finland without having first completed a bachelor's degree. That tells you all there is to know about the real quality of a Finnish master's degree! (Nigel)"

""...two first years a of an American Bachelor's degree is the equivalent of the information and knowledge gained by the Finns in the last two years of lukio."

"And since most of them don't study more than the bachelor's degree, that's about everything they learn."

Etc.

I bet Nigel didn't see that one backfiring :)

Having said that, one problem with making comparisons is that many Finnish qualifications do not have direct equivalents in other countries, such as US. So in lack of a better term, many college/polytechnic etc. qualifications are often translated as a "bachelor" of a one sort or another (eg. "tradenomi" is translated as "Bachelor of Business Administration"), which can be very confusing and misleading. Based on what Nigel wrote, he seems to be working at a polytechnic or perhaps even a vocational/trade college (not a university), and just got his terms mixed...

What Nigel doesn't necessarily realise was, that the Finnish Universities only used to have - except a few faculties - only a masters' programme. A bachelor's degree was really not applied for, having one was basically an "university dropout". There were in the olden days either vocational college engineers or university engineers and that was it. These days the Finnish system is being molded into an "EU standard" format so the equivalencies can be compared. IIRC in the UK they went through a similar process several years ago, in Finland the change is still going on. Hence the confusion - also for Finns.

"In conclusion, I think that Finns are prone to overhype their achievements." (Nigel)

In fact the Finnish education system was not "overhyped" by Finns, it was done by a recent impartial OECD report. (Note that the UK did not do badly either even though not as well as Finland).
This report does not cover universities though. In general comparisons between universities are based on criteria that is biased towards large multicultural institutions in big and powerful countries. In addition, these comparisons only very infrequently assess teaching quality directly.

I musty say that iam impressed by the way the finnish are handling their education to their people its very encouraging.But i don't know if you really accept international students to study in finland?

Sir,
Kindly consider my application in request for a suitable position in your widely School .
I'am a Nigeria by Nationality , Age 26 . I have worked in several occassions and in various
institutes as you may noticed with the attached documents. As I find this type of work enjoyable ,
it also provides enough variety to keep me occupied . Also as part of my achievement I have over
3years of work experiences in my country and other neighbouring countries especially Egypt , Libya
. I speak and write fluent english and Arabic .
I would be pleased to discuss my appliication further with you at your conveinience . please
inform me if you would like to see other documents and supporting materials . I would available at
the above-mentioned contact address at any time .
Thanks you for considering my application as I look forward to meeting you to disscuss the
ways my skills may best serve your company.
Sincerely Yours,

Mohammed Auwal Ibrahim

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