Their per capita national income is about 30 percent lower than ours. Private consumption of goods and services represents about 52 percent of Finland's economy, and 71 percent of the United States'. Finns pay considerably higher taxes
---------
I feel sorry for anyone who reads such articles, comes here, is disappointed.

Was that per capita/PPP or only the direct numbers ? Compare the prices of goods, too: How much is a Toyota Avensis, how much a pizza, how much a 4-room house etc.

Maybe that 71-52 is the amount more that goes to the deep pockets of the rich.

Anyone wanting to move to Europe, countries such as Spain and Italy are warm and more affluent. Also Germany, Holland, Belgium, England etc. are more affluent than Finland and in them there is less snow.

"Koko maailmaa on varoitettu loppuelämäkseen. Pitää päästä niin kauas tästä maasta kuin mahdollista, Anrell puuskahtaa.

- Helvetissä väitetään olevan kuuma, mutta Suomessa on kylmää. Jääkylmää. Ja niin märkää, että vesi tunkee kännykkään ja kalsareihin. Ja ihon alle. "

From today's iltasanomat.fi sports section which had translated some article from yesterdays aftonbladet, sweden's biggest newspaper.

'have to get out of this country as far as possible' 'they say hell is hot but finland is cold, icecold' - swedes tell it as it is. (they also sometimes, or rather often, like to tell things that are untrue, older swedish newspapers are full of such, though the finnish do not dare tell of such, could mean problems; they have copied what others tell of people that they do not like and applied such to finns, even where it does not fit at all)

(tv news told, the border guards had not let in some swedes who had shouted to some black people what they think of them, when entering the country, alas, they still let in all the other swedes, including their social democrats, who all are a lot worse nazis than those who tell to the blacks directly what they think of them) and let the swedes who are in the country, rule the country, all finns have to study swedish in schools, to think of finland as an independent country is slightly wrong, more it is a colony)

"They pay nothing for education at any level, including medical school or law school. "

Isn't that the same in most of the world ?
Does not mean all can afford schools as there is living expenses too.
Another thing to compare would be how much a nurse, police office, engineer etc. makes a month.

Also in Finland, basic necessities such as food and clothes are expensive compared to other countries, so things the not-well-off need cost lots. Example: in june I bought the cheapest t-shirts, which broke after one wash, I could find: 8 euros for one (end of july, maybe 2.50 on sale); a take-away pizza costs 6-7 euros average, big mac+cola maybe 5 (do not know), usual kind of bread in a supermarket, 500 grams, usually 1.69 euros etc.

"they still let in all the other swedes, including their social democrats, "
It is not the Social Democrats. It is the people. Other parties never objected to anything the social democrats did, they would have made the very same decisions themselves. The academics would have been the same finding others to be of lesser race were there other parties in power.
The Social Democrats are originally those who wish to achieve communism by peaceful methods. In Finland, told to be funded by CIA (governmental organization naturally likes communism) but got corrupted and nowadays almost everywhere in Europe have quite right-wing policies and party programs and are against, not for, the poor and the working-class.

"such as food "

Nearest Supermarket to me, 1/2 liter of pepsi is almost 2 euros - yet 3 liters is 3 euros on sale (almost every weekend the same price). Bought some today. They should make cola with extra caffeine, the energy drinks cost many times more what cola costs, 2 euros for a tiny can, and my stomach cannot handle coffee, tea is not strong enough :)

Finland seems expensive now because of two things. One if the 22% VAT, so of course it's more expensive than the US. However, the tax money gets spent on the people. The other reason it seems so expensive is because the dollar is weak. Two or three years ago you got 86c for your euro and now you get $1.25.

Of course Finland is poorer than the US but it is without doubt just about the best place to live in Europe in you care about your children, education and so on. It's also pretty wealthy these days. The commenter above who wrote "Anyone wanting to move to Europe, countries such as Spain and Italy are warm and more affluent. Also Germany, Holland, Belgium, England etc. are more affluent than Finland and in them there is less snow" is right about the weather (not much Finns can do about that) but is wrong on almost every other level. Adjusted for PPP Finland is more affluent than all those countries except the UK but having come from the UK I can testify that the quality of life here is much better. I don't know any teachers in the UK that own their own brand new four bedroom detached house at the age of 30 and expect to pay the loan off in 20 years. Here that's commonplace.

If you're looking for an example of a working social democracy, come to Finland. If you want to see a failing one, go to France or Germany.

"They pay nothing for education at any level, including medical school or law school. "

"Isn't that the same in most of the world?"

No it isn't.

"Does not mean all can afford schools as there is living expenses too."

Living expenses are covered as the author said. Try reading the article.

I accidentally stumbled on these great articles, and I've been reading thru all of them, including the comments for a good four hours or so. I still have a few articles unread, just wanted to say this one thing relating to all the comments made to these articles - quickly before it slips my mind!

We like to complain. We, the Finns have a tendency to complain about everything, and this can be seen on the comments of these articles. Typos, false information, benefits not good enough, food expensive, this and that is wrong etc etc. It's how we operate, and I guess it also helps to make things work. If all is swell, we will not sit idly back and enjoy the ride, we will find whatever is wrong and then we'll be nagging once more to get it right, it's a Finnish past time hobby to find the wrong and the nag about it.

This goes into the same category of basic Finnish stereotypes, as shyness, honesty and what ever else there were. Too tired to think.

Thank you for these articles, nice work. I like the personal approach and the laid back attitude.

I'll have to make this short because I'm at work.

But, I posted on an earlier post. actually, the first post where the philosopher guy was saying what makes finland so great and I basically thought he was crazy and wrong about everything.

I lived in Tampere for 3 years and finally moved back to the US(california). I have to tell you, I'm so happy to be back here. I got a job as an engineer, full benefits, I'm paying $180 per month for medical insurance for myself, my wife, and my daughter. I also just bought a house (180sq meters (1950 sq ft)) in the middle of the city where my work is(Temecula). And my wife is not working, just being mom which is a super full time job in itself.

There is NO WAY IN HELL we could have done all of this in Finland. I mean, In finland the most I could earn would be 4,000 euros, then I would lose 50% of that to taxes. So how the hell can you pay off a house? 4 bedroom house in the Nokia area goes for AT LEAST 300,000! My friend's recently bought a 72 sq meter house for 127,000 euros! I guess, when you said 4 room house you meant the kitchen, the bedroom, the livingroom and the bathroom. Yes, Those 50 sq meter houses are commonly bought by 30 year old teachers. In finland and in britain.

I know that in the news it appears that Germany is a non-working socialized country, but once you live in Finland and experience the low standards that they have for medical services, food, clothes and pretty much everything, then you understand how they can afford to provide the "social" system. In germany, you can choose your doctors, and when a woman gives birth, there is always a doctor present for the mother and the baby and nurses. in finland, there is only a mid-wife present unless there is an emergency. The cool thing is that mothers get a big box full of clothes for babies. Ugly clothes but at least you don't need to buy any for a year. And this is what I mean by low standards. That box is the baby's bed for the next year. Yeah, Cribs aren't very popular. Finns are great, and they RARELY complain. That's why nothing ever changes. You can slip and fall on the sidewalk a million times before someone tells the city to improve their service. Finns "suck it up" and go on with life. Maybe its a good thing, maybe its a bad thing. Personally, I just hated life over there during the winter... and well, the fact that it rains every week also made me hate life the rest of the time.

Why are the kids in finland doing so well in school? Not because of the money they spend or the quality of their teachers, its because of their CULTURE! Education is so important to the family, they're like asians! Parent's do practice tests with the kids. Oh yeah, and in the universities and in highschool, you can get copies of old exams. Yeah, so you practice with them. Collect a good number of these exams and you have a pretty damn good idea of what is going to be on the test, don't you think? That's why I loved doing my masters in Finland! It was so freaken easy! Hard to get a perfect 5 but impossible to fail a course!

But I do wish we in the US would figure out a better universal health care program for ourselves. Copying any exisiting programs in europe would be bad. And in the US, not paying for medical services is very easy and possible but it carries a stigma. Nobody wants to be a "Welfare" recipient. In Finland, and well, all over europe. THere is no stigma.. everybody is on welfare! Nobody can afford anything and everyone receives help from the government for one thing or another. Kids get kicked out of their house at 18, then are financed by the govt until they finish university, so thats why they drag their studies out for 10 years.

Pretty cool huh? All while I'm paying 50% taxes, can't afford to buy a car, pay gas and insurance and annual required bullshit checkups, winter tires, summer tires, 50 euro region fishing licenses, and all that other good stuff.

And did I mention that there are drunks everywhere you look? Enjoying your tax dollars... oh.. I better end now.

But I really do miss......... hmmm... I'll have to think about that more...

Eduardo, you seem like a very bitter guy, who's only goals are in materialism. Your "facts" seem to be mostly what you decide to believe in. You slip on a sidewalk once, and the whole country is to blame. You get to know one family who is obsessed with their kids education, and you draw a conclusion - the whole educational system must then be based on that. My parents never took any part in my school work, but I'm going to polytechnic to study business administration (in English) on monday. I also have a college degree on the same subject. For free. And we never had much money, because our mum had four kids to feed all alone. We have never been hungry, had a big apartment in a beatiful small town. It seems as if you think it can't be your fault that you didn't enjoy it. So it has to be the whole nation that is twisted and all wrong. In short. You have an attitude problem, which is propably the reason you never found a job here. Not to mention you need to know the language, like in any country.

Dear Eduardo, here in Finland we have this thing called a mortgage. You'd be surprised how many people take advantage of today's low interest rates. Few people buy houses with cash. I hear it is similar in States.

Oh, I checked your precious Temecula. It is to LA what Lahti is to Helsinki. Lahti and Temecula are both as far from a major city, only Lahti is bigger. I also checked that 2000sqft house costs 400.000 euros there... Nice. In Lahti houses go half that price. And did you read the fine print in your medical insurance. Just how much does it cover, semi-annual dental check-ups and needed dental surgery, god-forbid-long time hospitalization and physical therapy?

Looking at the illiteracy rate in US I suppose letting people study previous exams wouldn't do much good anyway. And if you are promoting a class-culture of the rich and poor you can keep it. Further, since US won't accept her responsibility over world pollution and greenhouse effect, we in Finland will enjoy California-like weather in about 10 years, so maybe you should have just waited. No more rain or winter tyres, ah, life quality...

hernandez you should take a closer look at the big picture, and not just tell about your own point of view. If you were poor you would actually like finland, well at least you would stay alive longer than in american ghettos..

Hernandez you're an idiot. Comparing housing costs in the republic of California with Finland and saying CA's less expensive? You've been breathing the smoggy air down there a little too deeply. And certainly culture plays a big role in the success of an educational system, perhaps the biggest role. But children will not learn in a vacuum. How is it that Finns fared well, even against the Asians who value education very highly? Oh yeah I forgot your answer: they were given all the test questions. Enjoy keeping your head in the sand in CA. By the way, I'm American born and raised, and have visited Finland many times.

"US but it is without doubt just about the best place to live in Europe in you care about your children, education and so on. It's also pretty wealthy these days."

Yes it is wealthy enough to take care of it's people but it does not do so.

http://www.verkkouutiset.fi/arkisto/Arkisto_1998/9.lokakuu/BROT3998.HTM
-about breadlines(now longer than in 98 when the article was written) - many people in Finland kill themselves as they cannot take the uncertainty of if they have food and shelter the next day, too. The social offices are known to purposedly not give money, so people have to steal (ending up in jail if done several times) - or kill themselves - or give money weeks late, making people go queue at the lines - sometimes far away from home. It is not that there was no money - the social offices are extremely well funded but the corrupt system and officials have found better use for it.

Ever since the diappearence of the soviet union the politicians (and most of the media) have not even faked to care about the poor in finland.

Wow, nice piece of fiction you have concocted there.

Yes, it is true that some organizations such as the salvation army sometimes hand out food. But the people lining up for food are actually very few. They are homeless, most with alcohol problems. And if someone wants to use his money for booze rather than food, then there is not much a society can do about it.

People don't have to steal in Finland because they can't get money from the social offices, the problem is rather the opposite. You can get money too easily.

And the reason people kill themselves in Finland is not related to the uncertainty whether they have food the next day. Everyone in Finland is quaranteed a resonable income to be able to afford food. You will not die in hunger in Finland. Most of the people that kill themselves are middle aged men who have serious personal or relationship issues and don't seem to be able to find any other way out than to take their life.

The system in Finland is not corrupted, and actually Finland has one of the lowest (if not the lowest) rate of corruption in the world.

By the way, what does the falling of the Soviet Union has to do with the poor in Finland?

"And the reason people kill themselves in Finland is not related to the uncertainty whether they have food the next day. Everyone in Finland is quaranteed a resonable income to be able to afford food."

You work for the state or why you purposedly spread misinformation ? Sure there are laws for such but the state and towns do not bother follow them in the least.

"People don't have to steal in Finland because they can't get money from the social offices, the problem is rather the opposite. You can get money too easily."

I have been locked up for stealing after I did not get money from a social office. Not too easy for me.

"Yes, it is true that some organizations such as the salvation army sometimes hand out food. But the people lining up for food are actually very few. They are homeless, most with alcohol problems. And if someone wants to use his money for booze rather than food, then there is not much a society can do about it."

That is your nazi fantasy only.

10 percent of the population is not homeless, they wait for food from the churches (not salvation army) because they do not have money to buy it with. You do not need to be a drunk to not have money. Actually, if you are a drunk, smuggled or self-made booze is very cheap, cheaper than food.

"Wow, nice piece of fiction you have concocted there."

The breadlines may not appear in the news so much, only once a year or so, so if you keep your fat butt in your well-off neighborhood and drive with your car to places where the other well-off go, you can well continue to live in your dreamland which in reality does not exist.

The Finnish welfare state gives a lot of money to
-government agencies
-organizations
-clubs etc.

The money does not go to those in need.

It would cost 1/10 of the money to double the "welfare checks" if all the unnecessary (or criminal) bureaucracy was abolished.

**************
By the way, what does the falling of the Soviet Union has to do with the poor in Finland?
**************
Everything probably: there was no breadlines before the collapse of communism. Communism was a christian system that took care of the poor and the surrounding systems had to adapt (or compete) with it. Take away communism - the evil won.

As long as the Soviet Union was there, the politicians had to pretend they cared. After it collapsed there was no need as the poor do not vote anyways.

The same poor who had (an old crap) car and worked now queue in the lines where they walk to (there is more cars as a whole but it is the affluent who have several, as percentage of people who have them the story is different)

I don't know how long you actually lived in Finland (I would bet not too long), and what dream world do you currently live in, but your writings are simply unbelievable. Is the reason for all of this fiction that you came here, didn't get as much money as you would've liked, then stole something and got thrown to jail, and now you're bitter about it?

What does communism has to do with the poor in Finland. Finland wasn't a communist society. (And actually neither was the Soviet Union. Communism is an utopia that in unachievable.)

It still is commonly called to have been a communist country. It affected the rest of the world. Maybe you understand what I was saying if I put it like this "communism was God's great plan to make people care about each other, the Devil won with his plan of destroying the socialist ideas of caring with his competing system of "social democracy""

"Is the reason for all of this fiction that you came"

Most writers here are Finnish.

Well maybe you could say Finland is still a communist country. The facades are still up and the media likes to pretend there is no poor and everything works.

"Adjusted for PPP Finland is more affluent than all those countries except the UK but having come from the UK I can testify that the quality of life here is much better. I don't know any teachers in the UK that own their own brand new four bedroom detached house at the age of 30 and expect to pay the loan off in 20 years. Here that's commonplace."

Where did you get that data from ?
Exactly adjusted to PPP Finland is worse off, otherwise falsely seems to have more money as GDP looks higher than it is.
Teachers in Finland are overpaid.

***I don't know how long you actually lived in Finland (I would bet not too long), and what dream world do you currently live in, but your writings are simply unbelievable. Is the reason for all of this fiction that you came here, didn't get as much money as you would've liked, then stole something and got thrown to jail, and now you're bitter about it?

What does communism has to do with the poor in Finland. Finland wasn't a communist society. (And actually neither was the Soviet Union. Communism is an utopia that in unachievable.)***

I was born here. Went to jail after did not get money from anywhere else but stealing. Went daily to social office but got no money.

Surely you think I should have died of hunger, but I was young enough to steal. The old often are not. And die for lack of food or medicine.

After getting out of jail the same tends to continue: The state does not provide housing for the ex-cons. Happily I could loan some money from a (big criminal in the state books, less of a criminal than the politicians or you in reality) friend and thus got a place to stay in.

Nazism was an utopia that got achieved and is alive and well.

Is the reason for all of this fiction that you came here, didn't get as much money as you would've liked, then stole something and got thrown to jail, and now you're bitter about it?
---
Do you also think (on tv news today) the food-looting new orleans poor should be put to jail ? Surely there, too, are many who think so. Those who left the town in their 50000 dollar cars.

Teachers may have a huge pay in Finland but think, only about half the university students ever graduate and those who do, are the oldest in the world.
You could also compare MD pay: In Germany its lower than in Finland, France or Britain, still nobody makes any far-reaching assumptions about Germany with only one statistic.
(When comparing pay in Britain, the bluecollar workers have low pay, the accountants on the other had, high pay compared to other european countries or norhern america)

What does communism has to do with the poor in Finland. Finland wasn't a communist society.
+++++++++++
???????????
If not, why where the american and not the soviet nukes pointed at Finland ?

The american system of caring for the poor seems to include armed soldiers and some governor who I decide not to describe here.
Cubans are able to evacuate their poor when some hurricane similar to Katrine is coming.
They have Christian values.

The poor often are the most religious (that is the reason Ireland is the most religious country in Europe and Finland is a lot more religious than the scandinavians are): they have to show they follow the values set to them - the leaders claim to be but are not.
For example, long ago the Swedish King decided that Sweden was no more Catholic - he wanted all the riches to himself from the stealing the churches love to do - while at the same time telling the poor the reward comes in heaven after they die.

Alas, there is no heaven. Hope keeps them alive - and enslaved. And dead if a catastrophe comes, such as the Hurricane Katrina.

Poor americans, join the communist party. The rich will kill many of you (when the communist party still was in Finland, the police used to beat them up, in demonstrations also the social democrats, who in effect are right wing, could be beaten up, only for their beliefs, during the civil war, the reds were slaughtered, they did not succeed, but americans are a different breed, scary, not as violent as the Finnish rich, why not try a revolution there ?) and ridicule you.

But if you succeed, you will finally be free. Your children will not die of hunger, of cold, of hurricanes even. They will have everything possible for them.

http://www.cpusa.org/

Religion seems to exist only to tell lies to the poor.

Without the communist manifesto the world might well have become a fair place but the rich got warned because of it and it's followers and that did not happen and the times are becoming more and more feudal or middle-aged.

Teachers pay is huge in Finland because their union makes a lot of noise and threatenes to strike ever so often. The authority of teachers is greater than elsewhere producing stupid children who cannot think for themselves - teachers also are typically women from the countryside. Corrent the teacher and thus show she is wrong - gets you in trouble. Such who cannot cope with city children who have brains of their own. Teachers also have very free system of grading. They grade like they want to. Test scores do not give the grades, unlike in most of the world: they can give 3 numbers up or down (supposedly the activity of children is the reason but in reality the wealth of parents is more a reason: 'good parents' who are known in the community = good grades, 'bad parents' or single parent = bad grades-)

"What does communism has to do with the poor in Finland. Finland wasn't a communist society.
+++++++++++
???????????
If not, why where the american and not the soviet nukes pointed at Finland ?"

I wouldn't necessarily draw conclusions about the nature of any country based on whether US considers it a threat or not. Actions of their officials seem not to be based on careful and reliable observations but paranoia and messages form God to their leader.

How eduardo had experienced Finnish welfare reflects the very difference between the cultural attitudes of USA and Finland. In USA, people who are able to cope are not willing to support those that aren't (very drastic single events like hurricane Katrina excluded). It seems like the law of karma of hindus is being applied within one single life: If somebody is poor the condition has probably been brought upon by person's own actions (or lack of action) and he should suffer it. Help from the government or state might only make things worse! Better to keep the poor poor and let the rich get even richer; at least then there is something to boast about when the list of world's most wealthy individuals gets published.

And by the way, if some people consider seeing the old exam questions a very bad thing. Here in USA some university teachers actually tell the questions of the upcoming exams and even spell out word by word the answers they want to hear, which I even after the laid-back Finnish system consider a bit weird.. The quality of education probably varies as well between individual teachers and universities as between countries.

Soviet nukes pointed at Helsinki? Huh? I bet they would've just loved that in Leningrad (today St. Petersburg)... Fall-out, see... Nah, you wouldn't get it. Soviet Finland, huh? My granpa is turning in his grave. Sheesh...

"Actions of their officials seem not to be based on careful and reliable observations but paranoia and messages form God to their leader."

..or maybe some Swedish/Scandinavian official who moved himself or herself out and thus not caring much about fallouts and got into a position to say stuff about Finland (in Norway for example they considered all Finns in the north commies and had their secret police in the Finns' backs for years - thing is, lots, probably most, of the Finnish politicians were bought by the KGB (they say not the communists as KGB was more clever than that, that would have been too obvious) but probably also by CIA - there was a BBC documentary a couple of years back which pointed out that in Moscow, the Finns liked both the booze and KGB women, no need for money most of the time)

"Better to keep the poor poor and let the rich get even richer; at least then there is something to boast about when the list of world's most wealthy individuals gets published."

That happens in Finland too. The poor are getting poorer, the rich richer. The huge social-budget is taken by those who _claim_ to help - the money does _not_ go to those who would need it but to the bureaucracy and the scamsters.

"cultural attitudes of USA and Finland. In USA, people who are able to cope are not willing to support those that aren't (very drastic single events like hurricane Katrina excluded)."

They had a rescue plan for the zoo animals but not for the poor. (That would make for some blues songs..)

http://www.enn.com/today.html?id=8695
"
The famous Audubon Zoo has the good fortune of being located on some of the city's highest ground, but it also had a disaster plan for the animals that worked better than the city's plan for humans. "

Soviet nukes pointed at Helsinki? Huh? I bet they would've just loved that in Leningrad (today St. Petersburg)
'''
How about small tactical ones?
http://www.rense.com/general40/nenw.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3025737.stm

One can wonder what were the american ones pointed at Finland (and who says they are not now ? the military ? why would they change the targets ?)
called ?

"kekkonen", "tarja", "helsinki", "uusimaa", "perähikiä", "kommarit lakoon ?"
?

Or were/are they named according to those who launch them or their gf's ?

"lisa", "ronnie", "monica", "george" etc ?

"In USA, people who are able to cope are not willing to support those that aren't"
Finland, depends on town and the person who is your social worker. You can either get lots or no money at all in the same situation.

"kekkonen", "tarja", "helsinki", "uusimaa", "perähikiä", "kommarit lakoon ?"
--
ahtisaaren laardiahteri ?

Where are the ones targeted at Finland situated ?
Maybe someone could send photos what their called ?

It is unlikely such a natural disaster would have caused less fatalies in Europe. Maybe there are towns where it would be true (and probably most falsely think it would be the one they live in) but in most, there is less cars, worse roads = more dead - I would estimate that in Finland, 1940s to 1980s the evacuation would have worked, but not anymore. There are more resources now but nobody would be able to lead.

CA's less expensive? You've been breathing the smoggy air down there a little too deeply. And certainly culture plays a big role in the success of an educational system, perhaps the biggest role. But children will not learn in a vacuum. How is it that Finns fared well, even against the Asians who value education very highly?
--
Prices: someone who only has visited bigger towns can easily think so. Old (40's, 50s, not renovated) houses in small towns are cheap in Finland (but renovation is expensive, say 1000 euros for m2 if done legally and not DIY.)

As for the economy: Europeans f....d up creating the common market, there is no sense of being european, some countries decided to be different and did not even take the common currency, moving to another european country is probably harder, not easier, now than in the 50s.
There is no common legislation to speak of either.

That is a big reason for the bad economy in most of europe, including Finland, small economy = high prices. Nothing Finland can do about it. Or it could if it tried, but politicians here are more followers and yes-men, puppets, than visionaries and leaders.

What they should do is make sure all the (tax, asking for money etc.) forms are the same in all of EU and everything is explained at least in English. Not going to happen in the near future and if they finally manage it, it will be too late.

If you are in Europe, leave it.

bigger towns can easily think so
-
-In small Finnish ones, no work anywhere near so the prices will stay low.

(but renovation is expensive, say 1000 euros for m2 if done legally and not DIY.)
**
My relatives have done it legally despite not really having had that much money. That must be the only ones in town who are that stupid.
Nobody ever even thinks about hiring a tax-paying builder.

"If you are in Europe, leave it."

Used to be people could. There was no passports. There was no legal obstacles. All you had to do was go. Now you need money.

After WW II the world has been more closed than ever before for those who want a different life. There is all kinds of crap talk about globalisation but that is only talk. Before WW II, if you had money to travel, you could move for good.
Not after it.
Thank Europe for that, and the first WW.

The americans do show good example in prosecuting those responsible for not evacuating the people, at least in the caring home, they should do the same to others responsible.
In Finland, at least in a public caring home, they most probably would not bother to prosecute, as the state is above laws.
People working for the state should be treated the same as other people, but are not.

FINLAND RUULZ

morro jejej oon suomesta :D

Teachers overpaid?
I wouldn't say that.
As far as the rest of the comments reg. teachers, have you people ever worked in a school?

School = something like 5 hours a day, half the year = not much work, for the lazy a good profession (and the sane ones say so too)

Poor American teachers settle for little money, no wonder you have dumb presidents like W.

W.
-
Did you ever watch any of his speeches yourself or only make a remark after reading leftist papers/watching leftist tv ?

I wonder how much homes in Alaska cost.. hmmm...

Southern California is currently going through a ridiculous housing boom. Riverside county (where Temecula is located) is the hotest market in the entire country. The population of that city has doubled to 100,000 in 5 years. The value of houses there has gone from 200,000 for 2000sqft(181 sqm) to 400,000. Very low unemployment.

So it is hard to compare a booming area to anything in Finland which probably has no booming area to speak of.

Even in the city of Los Angeles, you can still find a 2000 sqft house for 600,000. Can you do that in Helsinki which has a population of 3% of the city of Los Angeles? A friend of mine bought an apartment for $180,000 on the outskirts of Helsinki, next to the airport, with 100sqm(1076sqft)

If you look in San Bernardino, or Victorville or many other places in the country(USA) there is plently of cheap housing. Especially on the east coast. People are buying mansions for $300,000.

Funny how whenever someone says Finland isn't so great.. most Finns just go CRAZY!!!!

The States isn't perfect, and what happened in New Orleans could have gone better. But let's face it, if something similar would have happened in Europe, it would have been much worse. This storm would have destroyed the entire country of the netherlands. New Orleans is like what Greece is to Europe. Part of the whole, but very.. well.. you know.

Maybe so but atleast here in Finland our houses are built stronger and thicker because of the winter so such storm would do damage but not in the scale as it did in New Orleans.

built stronger and thicker because of the winter
-
compare chicago, minneapolis etc. that also have winter

nope, maybe Alaska which is on same level as Finland but nothing below that.

Well, I don't know if it makes any difference but the city of LA is only 8 times larger than Helsinki, so Helsinki has 12% of LA's population. And if you look at Vuosaari and Leppävaara in Espoo you could talk about booming in the last 5 years.
Still, I don't know what possible good could come out of comparing real-estate prices in two so different places. Yes, prices have been going up all the time. If you cannot afford, tough. This ia a market economy after all...

You ask whether there are things for the American government, for instance, to learn from the Finnish welfare state. There sure are, but you better come fast if you wish to learn anything, because the Finnish are slowly breaking up the welfare system. Why? Because of America. After the Soviet Union collapsed our poor little country needed another world power to start bowing to and begin imitating of.. And so, we welcomed capitalism, in all its glory.. and we're still on that road. I'm tempted to say that this road leads us to nowhere but hell, but I dare not be that pessimist. But I do know that colder, harder values have gained a strong footing in Finland, and that is a crying shame.

But I do know that colder, harder values have gained a strong footing in Finland, and that is a crying shame.
---
Not really. The values been tough here all of the time. It is only what is talked about that has changed, not the reality.

What to learn from Finland's mistakes:

Not a good idea to allow the press and the rest of the media become very concentrated: most towns have only one newspaper and tv news is dominated by the governments' yle:
lack of competition makes them lazy, nothing is investigated, so people often have no clue what is going on in society.

Police has almost unlimited powers in Finland- towns have cctv cameras everywhere
- used by the criminals most of the time.
Not a good idea not have limits to police powers and procedures.

"Why? Because of America. After the Soviet Union collapsed our poor little country needed another world power to start bowing to and begin imitating of.. And so, we welcomed capitalism, in all its glory.. and we're still on that road."

Maybe the imitation was never directly the soviets. Mostly east germany and sweden. (Or maybe sweden imitated east germany, which had imitated soviets, then finland imitated sweden)
now things are going really bad for about 1/3 of the nation whereas about 1/10 is getting things, at least short term, better, but not because of imitation of america:
there would be probably a lot of things better if it was imitated: the 1/3 would be working instead of being unemployed and in governmental, non-paying crap jobs that mostly would not need to be done, with prison-like work conditions, had america been imitated.

I'm a 19-year-old Finn.

Of cource Finland isn't a perfect place to live. No country is.

So let's cut the crab.

I'm a 19-year-old Finn.

Of cource Finland isn't a perfect place to live. No country is.

So let's cut the crab.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/12/25/news/finland.php
The new york times article about the finland-swedes rights:
"
If anything, Finland bends over backward, with little dissent and at great cost, to make its 260,000 Swedish speakers feel comfortable.

No sooner did Finland win its independence from Russia in 1917 than it ensured in its Constitution that Swedish speakers, who still controlled much of Finland, would be granted equal rights culturally, educationally and socially. It was a gesture of comity and pragmatism that overlooked the fact that for five centuries Sweden had controlled Finland and scorned the Finnish"

The article does not tell,
- that is the only minority with such rights, other minorities are usually treated worse than even the Finns themselves
- the constitution is as dead is the one in Soviet Union was, EXCEPT for the rights of the swedes, even such Finns who never will see one of them (north and east parts of the country) must study swedish in school (applies to anyone who goes to finnish school, also foreigners if they take university in finland) for several years, in all schools, too - and the requirements for government jobs mean, Finns who will never meet anyone Swedish speaking in their jobs, will not get the jobs, unless they speak swedish relatively well - in fact, a lot better than the requirements in sweden are for most jobs.
Also in the article they omit one of the reasons why the (finland's) Swedes get the top jobs: lots of them - and not many of the finns - go study in Sweden and in other countries, being wealthier, they can afford to do that, unlike most Finns.
Whereas there are free universities in all of Europe, the grant the government gives means in bigger towns at least, one still needs to work to be able to study for lots of Finns - whereas the Swedes get their money from parents.

"Also in the article they omit one of the reasons"

Some of the brighter ones even go to the Finnish-speaking courses in universities and thus are not included in the Swedish speakers' quotas but in the Finnish speakers'. More studying and less partying equals a better degree and as the name and language work for them no matter what school they attended, they can then give results comparable to the Finns in the workplace. They have easier high schools so most of them do not even try to get into Finnish-speakers' universities. Again, more parties and less studies.

The forced Swedish also means Finns have really bad language skills, compared to several other countries; not enough for today's workplaces. English is not obligatory, though all need it, with most workplaces having computers etc.
The languages really needed - German, French, Chinese etc. are only for a handful who want to learn more and able to and have the options in their schools (most only have german as option, so the rest of the languages, not many can speak or write) - in Sweden, all can be better done with English than with bad Swedish, they treat those with bad Swedish as stupid, but those with bad English as somewhat equals.

For decades, any of the big three parties could have gotten power simply by opposing forced swedish, as the people do (small parties lack the money to get in power). Yet none have done so. The electoral candidates (like those now in the presidential election on sunday) most probably opposed it themselves, while still in school, then got power and money for doing otherwise. Politics being quite an easy science - is there any other country as rotten and totally corrupted as this one ?

There seems to be a big revert war on Wikipedia's Apartheid page right now, with someone constantly trying to hide information about Finland's åpartheid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid_outside_South_Africa

The Finns having very bad language skills is a good way of keeping Finns in Finland. Works better than the Berlin wall in East Germany. After the WW II the Swedes took over the war-weakened country and forced everyone learn their language.

Forced Swedish is compulsary, other languages not - and Finns end up not knowing a lot about the world.

In HS 29. January (page e2) they say, burglaries in denmark are down from 10000 to 2000-3000 - they have so equal distribution of money that the number of criminals is down. - They have no forced obscure languages, no system of two languages, the best get to the best schools and jobs so there the skills of people are used better.
In Finland the number of crimes goes up, as does the number of those who get their food by waiting in line for bread - there is plenty of money but it goes elsewhere. Finland is a shameful country, people should do their best to get out of here. Most other countries are a lot better.
Finland has no real police force either - only corrupt ones. Was there a real police, there would not be forced Swedish. Forced Swedish was bought with money and threats. Finland's SUPO ("CIA") is only 1/10 the size of the Swedish counterpart and the Finnish ones are, the papers say, mostly former policemen, in other words - so stupid it would be a lot better not to have them at all. Same with KRP ("fbi") - no use at all. They always do what the big crooks tell them to do.

http://www.jippii.fi/jsp/forum/thread.jsp?b=kielipolitiikka&t=43934
New digital tv-channels - sender must also send swedish state tv channel one and two in finland: resulting in (2007 the analog sending ends and everyone must have digital receibers to see tv, south and west have had the swedish ones for a long time already, now they are about to send them to those parts of the country where nobody has ever even seen a swede) there being more state tv programs in swedish than in finnish. (digital channels yle teema and yle24 send only reruns of what there is on yle 1 and 2)
translated (badly) from link:
"minister shows you do not need to be clever or a good speaker to get to/stay in power) but only need to obey the orders of your masters and tell the finns to f... off"
"more estonian and russian nationals in finland than swedish nationals, still are not proposing tv on their languages also a lot of somali who have lesser not better chances in society still not proposing tv on their languages"
"not proposing french italian german etc. tv (important culturally and for trade) either better to make sure finns stay uneducated and uncivilized and have to stay in finland instead of trying to be succesful elsewhere"
"sweden's death-grip on finland tightens - get out if you can"

"I'm a 19-year-old Finn.

Of cource Finland isn't a perfect place to live. No country is.

So let's cut the crab.

Posted by: Aino | Dec 5, 2005 7:53:16 AM
"

In all the other ones, you can live a lot more to the south than in Finland (and people live, too) - better weather grows happier people.

"If you're looking for an example of a working social democracy, come to Finland. If you want to see a failing one, go to France or Germany."

They lack the breadlines of Finland. In them everyone can afford healt care, unlike in Finland, where it is not free.

hallo sir?madam in living in finland/helsinki...i wanna join the face modeling in finland actually my height is not so enough...i m 160cm but i hav good face for the modleing if u can respose for me i could do better to show u...my pictures...my mail addresss is limapopal@hotmail.com

hallo sir?madam in living in finland/helsinki...i wanna join the face modeling in finland actually my height is not so enough...i m 160cm but i hav good face for the modleing if u can respose for me i could do better to show u...my pictures...my mail addresss is limapopal@hotmail.com

"Forced Swedish is compulsary, other languages not - and Finns end up not knowing a lot about the world."

Happily no pictures of mohammad in finnish (or american) school books. Viking-like dislike of all others is not good.
-----clip----
http://www.expressen.se/index.jsp?a=520459

"Should say, according to a link in another page,
"school takes away books that have pictures of mohammad" (it still is okay to tell the Finns are violent criminals but Finns will, always giving up everythin and sucking up to anyone, cease to exist in the future whereas the number of the muslims is going up)"

Book away from one school. Or one school said they will take away the books. One might be surprised to still find the books if one went there. Can well still be there. If I remember right (I still have all my school books, it is only 3 years ago I graduated, and will check later and in the case I remembered wrong, will write it here) my religion books as well as the teacher told us here in Finland that the muslims do not make or allow pictures of Muhammad and there was none in the books either.

http://www.svd.se/dynamiskt/inrikes/did_11790299.asp
Swedes are using the picture of Mohammad also as an excuse for attacking less racist organisations such as "swedish democrats" (than their state and parties such as "social democrats") and closing their net pages. Even the Swedes themselves are not safe from the rage of their Säpo (security police which is ten times the size of finland's supo - which is a useless organization, but happily so)
----clip ends----

"modleing if u can respose for me i could do better to show u...my pictures...my mail addresss is limapopal@hotmail.com"

http://www.fashionmodel.fi/

Here is one I found with google with fashion model
and this list came up too:
http://www.keltaisetsivut.fi/hakemisto/H1173/Mallitoimistoja

(there is more than I pasted here but the rest had no home page listed, if you write the name to google a home page may (or may not) show up for some of those too)
http://www.sef.fi
sef@sef.fi

http://www.azzurromodels.fi

http://www.popular.fi

http://www.mode.fi


http://www.modelboom.fi

http://www.modelmission.fi

Finland - 2nd happiest country in Europe according to yesterday's news about an international survey.

http://www.jippii.fi/jsp/forum/thread.jsp?b=kielipolitiikka&t=44400

"finns happier than swedes - the news do not fit the picture the swedes have spread about finns"

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/vol116/issue6/images/large/zpe012051861001a.jpeg
Also Finns are told to be extremely violent by the same - in reality the lies they spread are violent and cause violence against the Finns, of whom lots live in Sweden, in themselves but Finns are not violent, at least when compared to others.
Above the link is to an international study:
Finnish schoolchildren 11-15 years old fight the least of the 35 countries surveyed, difference to the Scandinavian countries is huge: 54,7% of kids in Norway, 53,8% in Denmark and 49,8% in Sweden have fought during the last year, whereas in Finland the number is 36,7%, after Finland come Macedonia, Germany and Greenland with realtively low figures of fighting too.

Funny (or maybe not if you are a school pupil) is that the teachers have believed all the propaganda about the Finns (in other words, teacher training must be so bad it would better be abolished altogether) and recently, after the study had been published, said, Finnish school children are violent and crazy.

"i m 160cm but i hav good face for the modleing if u can respose for me i could do better t"

Finland is not a modelling capital of any kind, so if there is no positive response, try the well-known ones in other countries.

"is that the teachers have believed all the propaganda about the"

I would say the newsmedia is who believed it and spreads it, either because it is simple or because they have to: there are subjects that are not allowed in the media and the reporters do not dare oppose - if they all did that, nothing serious would happen, but if one does that, he will lose his job. Violence and fear keep the reporters at bay.

Teachers been in school and university and typically believe most they read - of course there are clever and devoted ones too but most are simple memorizers.

For example, people used to have a bit different dialects around the country - they still could understand each other - but since radio and tv been around a long time, they all talk almost the same now.
(The Swedish-speakers are different: one town speaks so different a dialect from other town that they do not understand eachother and sometimes have to speak _drums now_ FINNISH to _each other_ - that does not stop them forcing all Finns learn Swedish instead of useful languages).

"
Teachers overpaid?
I wouldn't say that.
As far as the rest of the comments reg. teachers, have you people ever worked in a school?"

They sure are. Compared to other professions, the pay/hour is high. They have very long vacations, work only half the year.

Teachers are not overpaid. But others cab be/are underpaid.

The forcing of Swedish causes lots of gifted too to drop out of life as there are lots of mostly boys who do not go to high school as they are gifted in something else but languages or simply do not want all the swedish that high school comes with. Gifted in maths, arts, music, anything - you need to go to high school to get anywhere. In most other countries the same would end up with Msc in engineering, arts, music, anything.

Some also drop out of high school because of it. Usually that means, for most, going to vocational training which often is inadequate not only for their skills but also when compared to needs of today's workplaces, end up out of work.

It is not only the swedes in sweden who are against the finns but in irc, i came across talking about how the refugees are assimilated to society: some girl who was speaking for them wholeheartedly told, her boyfriend who had been to a swedish-speaking school (which sounds a bit strange unless you realise they really want to make sure the immigrants will not get anywhere in life) was in an immigrant gang who, in return for small favors, would beat up finns who the swedes in the same school did not like (not told why in the chat but problem being, one can be caught, end up with a small fine and name in register so the swedes presumably preferred to keep out of the dirty work), she said to best of her knowledge, the boys only did not understand they were being used and were not that nasty in their thoughts, the swedes telling excuses that she only as adult had realised cannot have been true, being the bottom of society, used by the top. They also had taught the immigrants to first make a claim to court against those they would beat up, then beat up, so they would not be prosecuted.

Why the Finnish reporters do not dare tell how things in reality are like ?
-The swedes also call the finns everything they can think of, of those who names they know, make up rumors and do their best they would get in trouble - and many do - because of them. Finns are told be criminals and/or insane and/or nazis etc. (see jippii forums or chats around the net). The latter a bit strange as it is only 10 years ago nazism was seen as a positive thing and the Swedes told how their leaders were - well exactly that (but with EU it changed to be negative), for example, racial biology _in_ Finland was practised by the finland-swedes, in order to lessen the numbers of Finns, Sami, Gypsies etc.
http://www.jippii.fi/jsp/forum/thread.jsp?b=kielipolitiikka&t=44666
http://www.jippii.fi/jsp/forum/thread.jsp?b=kielipolitiikka&t=44523
http://www.jippii.fi/jsp/forum/thread.jsp?b=kielipolitiikka&t=40276

"Finland is not a modelling capital of any kind, so if there is no positive response, try the well-known ones in other countries."

Well since she is considering Finland, better tell some, too: Milan, Paris, London, New York, etc.

"who, in return for small favors"

Interestingly in Sweden all the immigrants groups are to prove their worth of wanting to be good Swedes to the Sweden by being against the other foreigners - not very original but keeps the foreigners fighting and out of the better places in society, politics, private companies.

"The swedes also call the finns everything they can think of"

Of worry are not the young but the old: They pretty much own the society:
http://www.jippii.fi/jsp/forum/thread.jsp?b=kielipolitiikka&t=16015
"business schools take 475 percent more Swedes than Finns in Finland"

politicians are threatened and bribed in the same way the refugees in the example: they are given power in the hierarchy as long as they support the privileges of the Swedes and forced Swedish for the Finns.

(continued)
"Of worry are not the young but the old: They pretty much own the society:"

-they are in reality large criminal gangs who keep Finland a badly-treated colony of Sweden but are not called that because they define who is what - but the Swedes still keep skulls of their perceived enemies of lower races, of the former millennium, so what else they could be but criminal gangs - yet it is Finns they like to call criminals and proportion of Finns in jails (most for petty offences, including stealing food, not paying tv-license etc.) is higher than the proportion of Swedes compared to number of people, despite all the PISA and like studies showing Finns do their best in school and later.

-as you can read from the jippii links above ("talked" or condemned in parliament about the former finnish alliance leader), the police and the parliament are owned by the scum: so if you are here, get out, if not, do not come here (to stay)
- the reason for the strange finnish system of higher education entrance with 475 percent more place quota for the swedes, for example, in university level business schools (also in the same links) is the fear of competition; if Finns too were allowed in a free-market system (such the us has and overwhelming majority of other countries too) to study the same as the Swedes - it would show they are not the better aryan people the media always remembers to tell they are; the command system sets the number of places from each language group in Finland, making sure, Finns do not get the good education but are put into vocational schools, no matter how gifted they are; the elite that speaks swedish keeps their places; for example, the best-paying job of all, the currency traders (i am a physics student so do not know if that is the right term) are all swedes; shortly: finn goes to a dull desk job, swede straight into management, after a usual business education (no matter the finn had a hard time getting into the education and when in, read a lot more than the swede, who had a fun time partying)

_/FLF\_
End the language apartheid
See:
http://tinyurl.com/l2o7a

(FLF stands for Finnish Liberation Front - organization needed for ending the occupation and forced Swedish)

http://tinyurl.com/l2o7a

http://www.geocities.com/stop_pakkoruotsi/sp5.htm?200614
The (asterix*'s ?) pages that are against the Swedish being compulsary to all Finns, in Finnish.

http://www.jippii.fi/jsp/forum/thread.jsp?b=kielipolitiikka&t=45859
Talk about how the biggest Finnish publisher was not allowed to even ask "should there be forced Swedish" in Finland very recently, in Finnish.

http://groups.google.fi/group/sfnet.keskustelu.kielipolitiikka/browse_thread/thread/7d2e737a46e0eab7/9836d59d0d3a4a49?hl=fi#9836d59d0d3a4a49
Folkhälsan http://www.folkhalsan.fi/ tekee nykyään esimerkillistä työtä
etenkin ruotsinkielisten kansanterveyden hyväksi. Sen historiikkia en
kuitenkaan ole löytänyt.
Siksi oli varsin mielenkiintoinen kokemus törmätä julkaisuun, jossa
kerrottiin järjestön työstä rotuhygienian hyväksi:

http://www.tieteessatapahtuu.fi/897/MATTILA.pdf
---
About how "folkhälsan" was working for racial hygiene in Finland - less Finns is good hygiene, in Finnish.

publisher
=
the same which also publishes the biggest newspaper

minäkin pidän runkkaamisesta !

o_o.. LOL.. Look at me.. I'm finnish.. I win. You all suck ^_^ Morons. Ty. Goodbye. Very good game to you all sirs.

o_o.. LOL.. Look at me.. I'm finnish.. I win. You all suck ^_^ Morons. Ty. Goodbye. Very good game to you all sirs.

Osht.. It posted twice ^_^ Oh well.. 2x the ownage. Mkay.

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