In my mind the federal view on the Tysons tunnel is one of the things that is wrong with the bean-counter mentality in this country. If the feds' share will be the same regardless of which plan is used, then they shouldn't care whether we use a tunnel or an el. It's very unfortunate that the American way has become "What is cheapest" rather than "What is best for the money long-term." Look at our highway pavement compared with Germany. We focus on doing the job for the least money. They focus on what will last the longest and need the fewest repairs; even if it costs more up-front, they save on repairs long-term. The idea that we should throw out the tunnel idea simply because it is more expensive to build may well be a false economy.

Personally I think that Metro all the way to Dulles is a waste of money. Metro to Tysons is a very good idea that should have occurred years ago. Metro to Dulles, especially if it just feeds onto the Orange Line tracks, doesn't strike me as cost-efficient. An actual train (VRE- or MARC-style) that runs nonstop from Dulles to Union Station (something similar to the Heathrow Express or Gatwick Express in London) would make far more sense for BOTH airport users and commuters. Who wants to ride a standard Metrorail-issue LOCAL train that will take over an hour from Dulles into downtown with all the stops in Arlington? But we'd have to find somewhere to build the train tracks beyond the end of the Dulles Access Road, and I certainly understand the difficulty there.

I'm with ya on the fact that it should be a commuter train - ala MARC to BWI. But apparently the "selling point" of "take the metro here" is just too good to stop and think rationally. As can be seen with the MD legislature talking about BWI-metro despite the fact that MARC goes there - whereas it would clearly be more economical just to run more MARC trains there (i.e. - add weekends and nights).

Being from MD, and only for the past year, I took my first ride from the very end of the Blue line about a month ago.... I never realized just how long that line is! It takes FOREVER! The astonishing thing is the huge distance between stops. I'm from NJ/NY originally, and the stops on the blue line in NoVA are waaay further apart than the njtransit commuter trains! The amount of sprawl in that part of the world is sickening. NoVA should be adding more stops to the existing lines and encouraging dense development in the existing inner suburbs rather than running metro to outer suburbs when it should really be commuter rail.

I understand that perhaps 30 years ago the DC region looked different, and metro WAS serving the outer burbs at that time... but the populations has grown since then and keeps growing.. its about time it start looking like more of a subway system, and the commuter rail serviced the outer burbs like it's supposed to.

PJB, I've always wondered why the Blue Line wanders like that. (I've been living in this area for 14 years, but it was like that when I moved here.) Was there some pressure to add an Arlington National Cemetery stop? I would love to hear from someone with historical knowledge.

I think MARC's problems with nights and weekends has to do with CSX's ownership of the rails and its freight-train schedule. At least there is an express bus from Greenbelt Metro to BWI. It's a LOT cheaper than the Washington Flyer to Dulles, and runs on nights and weekends.

Actually, MARC to BWI is not impacted by CSX as those tracks are owned by Amtrak. I think it's a cost/usage thing.

The Brunswick and Camden lines do run on tracks owned by and are thus beholden to CSX.

Greenbelt Gal - Actually, CSX only runs the Camdan and Brunswick lines. Amtrak runs the Penn line. From what I've read, the problem with MARC is that our illustrious governor keeps jacking up the farebox requirement (% of operating cost that the system has to return). From what I read, that started at 40%, is at 50% and there's talk of it going to 60%. So the fares from the increased ridership of the past few years are being returned to annapolis rather than expanding schedules and promoting further increased ridership. But thats just me speculating on what I've read. But the Amtrak part is definately correct - that is why there are inconsistencies between how the lines operate. For example, in excessive heat CSX drops to 40mph or something along those lines, where as amtrak drops back 20 from their top speed, but amtrak's top speed is 120 on the NE corridor, so it hardly impacts the marc trains on the penn lines (until they get stuck behind a slowed down acela at least...) but CSX-run marc trains are very much impacted by heat restrictions. As for the blue line, I was refering to out past arlington, where there's probably a good 5 minute ride between any 2 stops (with the exception of king street). Is the geography of the development in NoVa such that the arlington cemetary stop caused that you think? My gut feeling is that it mirrors the feel of much of NoVA... decentralized and sprawling - i.e.- more like a typical outter suburb than a typical inner suburb. But newer neighborhoods like clarendon seem to indicate that development style as changing no?

Yes, Arlington Cemetery was added at the request of the feds, and since they were paying for it they had some say.

The problem with trying to make the Metro like the New York subway is a matter of practicality--the area is not dense enough for it. The New York subway grew up with the city as the population grew. Here, in contrast, you essentially have to graft mass transit onto an area that grew up without it, and that's a far different story. Many of the hardcore transit advocates essentially take the point of view that people must be forced to go wherever transit is to go, because it is impossible to bring transit everywhere the people are. Neither of those two extremes can really work, I don't think. Transit in the DC area--both Virginia and Maryland--has to be viewed as something that could REDIRECT people's commutes by car and not as something that could ELIMINATE such commutes. Any subway or commuter rail will require ample parking such as we see at Vienna, or Greenbelt, or Franconia-Springfield. There's no way around it.

The idea of transit for the suburbs is noble, but the one major thing I have never heard anyone address is where suburban subway or light rail lines would run (aside from Maryland's proposed Purple Line). Anyone got any ideas, recognizing that the locations along the line you propose need to be either (a) already dense enough to support ridership or (b) located conveniently enough to major arteries to allow for access by car and with enough space to allow parking for those cars?

Agreed... but, the recent development patterns of the DC region are becoming much denser. Take Bethesda, the redevelopment of Silver Spring, Clarendon, construction is even blooming around NY ave in response to that station. So while I understand the reason why, 30 years ago, metro was designed for "suburbans driving and parking near the station", and it can still support this function - shouldn't it now be following the new patterns of development? Shouldn't we be talking about more NY-ave type "add in" stations? That in fact is exactlly what you are saying, that development must follow the transit - we have exisiting metro lines, aren't our dollars best spent creating opportunities for that development to flourish?

OK this is totally off topic but was not answered in the online discussion today, and since there was some discussion on the speed of commuter trains during the heat, I figure I'll throw it out there and maybe get some help.

Which would you say is the best way to get to BWI from the Grosvenor Metro station during midday on thursday:

1) Take the red line from Grosvenor, transfer to the green line towards Greenbelt and take the B30 from Greenbelt station to BWI?

Or

2) Take the red line to Union Station and take a MARC train to BWI?

I'm worried that due to the heat this week the MARC train will be incredibly slow and hard to plan out. I have taken the B30 a few times and have always found it a very reliable and comfortable ride. Any advice would be much appreciated.

Union Station / MARC is almost definately your best way. In the past month of high heat (over 90 degrees) and commuting on the Penn Line (I work near BWI) the worst delay I've encountered so far has been ~20 minutes behind the schedule. If you work with that as a possibility, I think you'll be fine. As I mentioned earlier, the heat restrictions effect the Penn line far less than they effect the other lines. My best guess on that is that it's because amtrak keeps their North East tracks in better overall condition than CSX does, due to the high speed Acela train. But in short, the heat-related track inspections haven't caused more than 20 minutes of problems to my commute thus far, so I'd go with that option myself.

"Which would you say is the best way to get to BWI from the Grosvenor Metro station during midday on thursday"?

Drive.

Why doesn't Metro 'team up' with another transit agency to bulk buy cars. I simply can't believe that every single system is so vastly different that cars from one would not fit in another. It might mean an added gap of a few inches or so, but isn't there a better way to buy more cars?

Rich - why in the world would you drive in the middle of the day when all transit systems are running at VERY reasonable frequencies? Are you just anti-transit all together or what?

PJB and Greenbelt Gal:
The southern end of the blue line for years was National Airport. The beginnings of the system in the mid-70's was Rhode Island Ave. to Dupont Circle and Stadium Armory to National (Reagan) Airport.

For years, that's all we got.

I drive the Western side of the Beltway every day, between College Park and Tysons. I would give anything to be able to take transit, but being a suburb-suburb commuter, it's not an option for me. How about some attention to that issue? No matter what we think about these outer lines and other options, having to go through the city to get from one suburb to another will still deter people from taking transit. And I'm not so sure that's such an unusual commute anymore.

Rich,

If driving were an option then would I be asking about only public transportation?

I'd rather do the public transportation there, just didn't know which would work out faster.

Oh, and thanks PJB for your ability to figure out I was only interested in public transportation, and for the helpful advice.

I think I will do the MARC thing because even if it does get me there 20 minutes later than the schedule, that actually results in me having to kill less time in the airport. Less transfers is always nice too and I won't have to stand in the heat waiting for the bus.

Laura, perhaps I misinterpreted your post; I didn't read it as meaning that you wanted us to pick only from those two options.

PJB, I have nothing against transit and I use it when I think it's the best way to get somewhere, but for getting to BWI at midday (rather than at rush hour) I think driving is by far the fastest way. Think about it--from GROSVENOR, which out by the Beltway, you drive 8 miles to I-95, about 20 or so miles north to I-195 at 65 to 75 mph, then about 3-4 miles east to BWI at 60-70 mph. Or you wait for the trains that run every 12 minutes if there are no delays, go half an hour in the wrong direction to Union Station, then go back out on the MARC or Amtrak. AT MIDDAY, to me that doesn't make sense.

Ask me how to get there at 4:30 PM on a weekday and it's a TOTALLY different question due to the traffic. Ever try to go up to Baltimore for a baseball game in the pre-Nationals days? (I live in Virginia, so driving was the only option due to the late-night return home. Believe me, if you didn't leave DC by 4:00, it was questionable whether you'd make it on time.) Driving up that way at rush hour is crazy if you can avoid it. So AT RUSH HOUR, I'd say either the MARC train or Amtrak, whichever one has the best schedule for the individual concerned.

Anyway, I've lived in the DC area for over 30 years and have a very good sense of multiple ways to get everywhere, so I don't think driving is as much of a burden as the media would have us believe it is. You just have to know more than one route (i.e., don't depend on the highway all the time). So I'm not anti-transit or anti-driving or whatever. In an ideal world I'd bike to work, but I need to get in better shape before I can do that. I'm just a realist and perhaps a bit of a cynic after many years in DC!

BTW, for PJB, regarding the distance between Blue Line stops, you have to look at what WAS on the property where there are no stops. You know where the Potomac Yard mall is? That used to be a huge railroad yard that predated the development of the area--hence, there was no reason to put a stop there. (There was a plan to build a stop there in the manner of the NY Avenue stop on the Red Line, but the money wasn't available.) Same goes for the distance between King Street and Van Dorn--it runs through a stream valley and past a Metro storage yard where there isn't a ton of space for development--and then from Van Dorn to Franconia-Springfield (where there is some industrial property and then the Beltway).