Metro should communicate more with passengers. There were 800-1,000 of use at East Fall Church Metro station last night. An guess what? One Metro manager who stayed far away from the crowd. No infomration on how long teh next shuttle bus would be or how long teh repairs would take. Many of us hiked in the rain the two miles to West Fall Church. Thanks for nothing Metro!

Also, Trees down crossing Custis Trail near Lee Hwy. and 66 (one near Big Wheel Bikes and another near the top of the switchback over 66)

Someone please cite the actual law that requires me to treat a dark signal as an all-way stop. I don't know that all states have that. I'm pretty sure that some states require yielding to traffic on the right (but only if such traffic exists), sort of like what you do in Europe. I think it is horribly innefficient from a traffic-flow perspective to work it like an all-way stop. The main road should have the right of way over the side street, and if 2 major roads cross cars proceeding through in groups of 4 or 5 is much more efficient than all-way stop operation.

MALFUNCTIONING TRAFFIC LIGHTS ARE FOUR WAY STOPS!!!!!! What the HE1L is people's problem in this region that they do not understand this??? I was LIVID on the way home yesterday as people took advantage of others and showed their ME FIRST mentality that makes this region such a pit to live in. King Street at Russell Road in Alexandria was out at rush hour yesterday, not a cop in sight, and people were respecting (within reason) the four-way stop concept and taking turns until (lucky me) I got to the front of the line. That's when people waiting on Russell to cross onto Callahan decided they were time pressed and VIPS and not one, two or three cars went, but 10 to 12 before I finally PULLED INTO THE FLOW OF TRAFFIC to get them to stop and respect the rest of us and TAKE TURNS. Freaking idiots! I stopped at every light that was out. Many around me did, too, IF they were behind me. If they were beside me or ahead of me, and the cars ahead of them did not stop, neither did they. Such special people. This region is full of LEMMINGS!!!!

I don't know whether it is the fact they don't SEE the light anymore now that it is out, or if they're all selfish sons of beeches, but the people I saw "running" the traffic lights were WELL DRESSED MIDDLE AGED MEN, shirt and tie and fancy car.

And there is NO excuse for this. Websites, television reports, and RADIO were all reminding drivers to treat these intersections as if they have a stop sign. It did no good unless someone else had the temerity to stop. Otherwise, traffic light? What traffic light???

Woodley, check out your rules of the road handbook.
Here's the excerpt From VA's:
http://www.dmv.state.va.us/webdoc/citizen/drivers/vadm/vadm2-6.asp#3

Right-of-Way

When two vehicles approach an intersection not controlled by traffic lights or signs, neither vehicle has the right-of-way.

Generally, Virginia law states that when two or more vehicles approach an uncontrolled intersection from different directions at the same time, the driver on the LEFT must yield to the driver on the right.

If the traffic lights at an intersection are not functioning, all vehicles approaching the intersection must stop. The driver on the left must yield to the driver on the right.

From the DC DMV driving manual (page 56):
http://www.dmv.dc.gov/info/forms/dltest_pdf.shtm

The law requires that if the traffic lights or controls are out of service or malfunctioning when you approach an intersection, you must come to a stop as you would for a stop sign. You must then proceed according to the rules of right of way, unless you are directed to proceed by a traffic officer

Woodley Park, you are a very wise poster on this board and I enjoy reading your informative posts. But I'm surprised you value efficiency over "people knowing what to expect and do" in a situation where there are no longer traffic controls to direct them. People on side streets are often trapped and unable to go anywhere if intersections do not allow for turn taking. People wanting to turn left often cannot and end up blocking a whole lane of traffic. With turn taking and four way stoppage, everyone is assured their chance to proceed in time. I'd rather wade through the back up of having every car stop than sit for an hour behind cars who are unable to be on their way because the straight traffic is not stopping. Consider too the blocking of the box by people who are behind others who finally reach a traffic control device that works on down the road. That hinders traffic, and it has a ripple effect. The timing...the slow release...of people at a four way stop better manages traffic in urban areas. Efficiency does not always trump safety.

Here is the Virginia Code on this: Virginia Code § 46.2-833 - Traffic lights

B. If the traffic lights controlling an intersection are out of service because of a power failure or other event that prevents the giving of signals by the traffic lights, the drivers of vehicles approaching such an intersection shall proceed as though such intersection were controlled by a stop sign on all approaches. The provisions of this subsection shall not apply to: intersections controlled by portable stop signs, intersections with law-enforcement officers or other authorized persons directing traffic, or intersections controlled by traffic lights displaying flashing red or flashing amber lights as provided in subsection.

Oh no! 2 whole miles!!!!! BFD.

Thank you to the two posters who cited the law. The law is the official source, not the radio reporters. I was told, recently, by a fairly authoritative source that the law does not treat dark signals as 4-way stops in all states. That is why I asked the question. Apparently it does around here (at least in Virginia).

When lights are out, things will be different. I'd prefer a compromise between efficiency and normalcy as opposed to what we had yesterday: complete gridlock. The 4-way stop concept works great when you have 2 small roads intersecting. When you have a 4 lane highway intersecting a little side street, I don't see any need for the main road to stop if there are no cars on the side street. In otherwords, 4-way yield would work better in those situations. Not that anyone would actually stop to allow that car on the side street to get out because of the me-first attitude, but maybe in more courteous parts of the state it would work. When you have big roads intersecting, you have...a mess. In my opinion it would work much better if each approach to the intersection went for 10 seconds, 30 seconds, something more than 1 car at a time. This is generally what police do when directing traffic. I guess the answer is to get more police out to these intersections faster. Or better yet get battery backup power to these signals so they can operate on flashing-mode until normal power is restored. This is what they have up in NY....small intersections flash all red, large intersections flash yellow on the main road and red everywhere else. If cars don't feel like turning left off a side street, turning right and then making a U-turn is always an option. Using a brain and common sense allows that option. But at least main road traffic keeps moving.

Woodley Park, your theories only work if someone is directing traffic. If you come up with some halfassed rule about letting 4 or 5 cars through, that 4 or 5 becomes 10 and then 11 doesn't know that he's 11 and goes to and pretty soon you have exactly what happens every time a light goes out, but everyone has an excuse.

Woodley Park is clearly a "main road" Nazi. Let's see what happens when s/he gets stuck on a side street and goes apeshyt over not being let onto the road.

Laura...that was 2 miles in the rain and lightning for those folks. With or without umbrellas and jackets. It was probably miserable in pumps, slingbacks and dry clean only clothes...be nice. :-p

Woodley Park, I do totally understand your point, and I'd be happy if that is what actually happened...two or three cars squeak out at a time and people are gracious enough to offer someone else a turn. But I also agree that those 3 cars easily become 5, then 10, then non-stop traffic at the expense of others. And around here, no one wants anyone else to have an advantage they don't have. Ugh.

One problem with expecting people to stop on a main wide road when a car appears on the side street is that people will not stop for fear of getting rear ended, honked at by those VIPs behind them, etc. I saw this on busy Seminary Rd in Alexandria near St. Stephens and Howard Roads yesterday (I referred to it as lemming behavior, but now that I've had a day to zen out about what I saw yesterday, I'm more open to their side of things).

The problem isn't with the law or with people not knowing the law or anything else. It's with the local drivers. As with everything else that goes on in the DC area, many people who may know about the "dark signal equals four-way stop" law also know that they aren't going to get a ticket for ignoring this law, so they blatantly blow through the intersections, just like the people who drive on the shoulders on I-395 every morning, or who park on the shoulders waiting for the HOV to expire, etc. (I could go on all night, but you know what I mean). Certainly there are some people who do not know what the law is in this situation, but I'd wager that a large number of the people out there simply don't care what it is.

I guess I was lucky last night because I had no problems. I dropped one of my cars at the mechanic yesterday and it won't be ready until Friday, so I took the Blue Line and encountered no delays to Van Dorn. Then I was faced with the dilemma--bus (for 35¢) or taxi (probably $12 with tip)? The bus stop is a half a mile walk from home and I had to wear a suit yesterday (hence why I considered the cab....half a mile is nothing, but I didn't want to mess up one of my nicer suits), but since it wasn't raining I took my chances. We went through a small squall on the way to my stop, but somehow it wasn't raining when I got off the bus and I made it home before the big storm. Total time door to door, 1 hour 5 minutes. No traffic lights out in my part of the county either, although some trees fell over. I guess I was one of the (few?) lucky people. Incidentally, the Blue Line train operator gave a LONG spiel between Foggy Bottom and Rosslyn about the Orange Line problems based on what he was hearing on the radio, but the problem was that nobody could hear him because of the train noise (he actually spoke very clearly and was one of the better announcers I've heard, but the noise going under the river just drowned him out).

"[P]eople will not stop for fear of getting rear ended, honked at by those VIPs behind them, etc."

This is a very legitimate concern. When I see that a light's out, I slow down well in advance, partly for this reason and partly because I want extra room if people ahead of me crash into each other. I will confess that sometimes I'm tempted to ignore the rule because once you stop it can be hard to get going again if the people on the other road don't stop, but then, that doesn't make it right to impose the same problem on them!