Reforma reports AMLO supporters take down some tents blocking arteries in DF. See http://mexicanosyamericanos.blogspot.com/ for more.

This "jewel" from the Nuevo Excelsior on the pristine environment on which the elections were held:

IFE negó apertura pese a "evidencias"

Por Érica Mora

erica.mora@nuevoexcelsior

A la luz de los "evidentes errores aritméticos" que el Tribunal Electoral identificó en dos mil 705 casillas, en Jalisco, el IFE sólo permitió la apertura de 130 durante los cómputos distritales.

De manera paralela, Excélsior verificó que en la entidad gobernada por el panista Francisco Ramírez Acuña el IFE sustituyó a 15 mil 852 funcionarios de casilla el día de la jornada electoral, es decir, a 27.99% de los ciudadanos que contaron los votos.

Así, en Jalisco, entidad clave en el recuento de los votos, en función de que representa 22.84% de las casillas que el Tribunal Electoral del Poder Judicial de la Federación (TEPJF) ordenó abrir, el IFE pasó por alto que la votación registrada en las actas de escrutinio y cómputo fuera mayor al número de ciudadanos que acudieron a sufragar.

Y de acuerdo con información del IFE, en una de cada tres de las casillas instaladas en Jalisco, el organismo electoral sustituyó a los funcionarios de casilla de último momento, con personas que se encontraban en la fila para votar.

Los distritos de Guadalajara, Tepatitlán, Jocotepec, Tonalá, La Barca, Puerto Vallarta y Zapopan son los más representativos en cuanto al porcentaje de deserciones de los funcionarios de casilla y los errores de cómputo.

Por otra parte, el mayor número de "evidentes errores aritméticos" que detectaron los magistrados en Jalisco se concentraron en seis distritos: el 3 de Tonalá, 5 de Puerto Vallarta, 6 de Zapopan, 7 de Tonalá, 8 de Guadalajara y 17 de Jocotepec. En éstos, Calderón sumó 471 mil 284 votos, lo que representa 310 mil 584 más que los obtenidos por López Obrador, a quien se computaron 161 mil 700.

Proporcionalmente, los distritos 3 de Tonalá, con 61%; 6 de Zapopan, con 60%, y 17 de Jocotepec, con 58%, son los que registrarán la mayor apertura de paquetes.

La segunda entidad donde mayor número de paquetes se abrirá es Baja California, con mil 138 de un total de 3 mil 543, es decir, en uno de cada tres deberá volverse a efectuar el conteo. Cabe destacar que en ese estado el IFE ordenó la revisión de 183 al momento de realizar el cómputo.

La proporción de paquetes que se abrirán por instrucciones del TEPJF se dispara en dos distritos: el 7 con cabecera en Mexicali, donde serán revisados 219 de 432, es decir, 50.6% del total; algo similar ocurrirá en el 8, en Tijuana, donde la orden es abrir 195,44% del total.

Tamaulipas es un estado bajo control priista, donde se ordenó el recuento de mayor número de casillas: 942 de 3 mil cuatro, equivalente a 31.3% del total.

En ese estado sobresale el distrito 3, donde se abrirán 212 de los 588 paquetes, destacando el hecho de que ya en los cómputos distritales el IFE había aceptado la apertura de otros 58.

"No era conveniente recontar los votos"

Los consejos distritales consideraron que "no era relevante ni conveniente" abrir los paquetes electorales que presentaron "evidentes errores aritméticos" durante el conteo final, señaló el Instituto Federal Electoral (IFE).

Asimismo, aseguró que la tarea del IFE ante la decisión asumida por el Tribunal Electoral del Poder Judicial de la Federación (TEPJF) será la de otorgar todas las facilidades para que los recuentos se lleven a cabo "de manera eficaz y en paz".

Luego de una reunión privada que sostuvieron los consejeros electorales, Virgilio Andrade, presidente de la Comisión de Reglamentos del IFE, defendió la actuación de las juntas distritales.

Planteó que en su oportunidad los consejeros distritales no abrieron los 11 mil 839 paquetes, que a partir de mañana serán objeto de un recuento por orden del Tribunal Electoral, porque no lo consideraron "ni conveniente ni relevante", para determinar al ganador de la contienda presidencial.

Entrevistado en el Instituto Federal Electoral, Andrade también dijo que otra de las razones por las cuales esas casillas no fueron objeto de una revisión durante las sesiones de cómputo distrital fue que en algunos casos esa petición no fue expresamente formulada.

"Posteriormente, una de las partes consideró que era necesario solicitarle al Tribunal que lo hiciera", señaló el también presidente de la Comisión de Reglamentos del organismo electoral.

El consejero electoral descartó que exista algún tipo de preocupación porque en estados como Jalisco se deba hacer el recuento sobre 33% de las casillas instaladas para la jornada del 2 de julio.

"Si el tribunal ha ordenado el recuento se tiene como objetivo verificar cómo quedaron los resultados y, en ese sentido, todo lo que abone a la certeza de la elección es lo más importante, independientemente de los juicios que nosotros podamos hacer", expresó.

Reconoció que el recuento ordenado por el Tribunal constituye un hecho inédito, pero señaló que "las condiciones que deben prevalecer en estos recuentos son exactamente las mismas que en los cómputos distritales".

It takes a special kind of person to back oneself into a no-win situation... if AMLO backs down, the blowhards in his movement will never forgive him, and he is done for as their leader; if he goes on disrputing the daily life of the capital, he antagonizes his electoral base, the chilangos that nearly put him in power. AMLO has cornered himself in a way no medium-caliber politician would have done. A comment to Ceci, who has otherwise been very good on her coverage, take short trips outside the capital and see just how increasingly inconsequential is the would-be tropical messiah to the rest of the country, who just wants to get on with life. If AMLO is loosing support in Mexico City, imagine in other more modern and hard-working parts of the country...

For those who quote something in "Reforma:"

Would you please be so kind to provide at least the gist of what you're attempting to show? I'm not a "Reforma" subscriber and don't anticipate ever becoming one; therefore, I don't have access to the paper and pretty much don't have a clue of what you are pointing to. On the other hand, full transcription of articles in Spanish appears to me as a lazy use of space. Thanks.

Pasilla,

The article that they are referring to is about the protesters that were blocking the toll roads into the DF. They are related to the planton in the Zocalo. Calm down. There is no need to get mad, yet.

I'm once again annoyed by the contention that AMLO did "almost" reached the Presidency supported by the "chilangos." To begin with, despite the stupid decision of the Academy of the Spanish Language to include the term in its dictionary, I, born in Mexico City, resent the use of the term "chilango" to refer to natives or inhabitants of that city, due to its semantical emptiness and its pejorative history. But semantics aside... What about the millions of votes cast for AMLO in the rest of the country? How about the heavy recount in PAN-leaning states, such as Jalisco? How about the intense support for AMLO in his native state of Tabasco? This idea that "only or mostly chilangos" support AMLO has, in my opinion, seriously bigotted undertones (read, for example, that of the "modern, hard-working part of the country"). People who make this type of comments fail to understand the diversity of the biggest city in the country...

On the other hand, we are so used to politicians with no or very little spine, that when somebody showing a healthy dose of backbone comes along, many of the defenders of the "peace and order" (as AMLO said: what peace are they talking about, the peace of Don Porfirio, the peace of the graveyards?) lack the words to define reality and recur to all sort of psycobabble and offensive epithets to refer to that person...

It now looks the Brits are also becoming "radicals"

From today's FT editorial:

LEADER
Mexico's poll dispute A full recount is still needed to restore faith in government.
473 words
8 August 2006
Financial Times
London Ed1
Page 12
English
(c) 2006 The Financial Times Limited. All rights reserved
Mexico's political establishment runs the risk of damaging faith in the country's nascent democracy. By opting on Saturday for a partial rather than a full recount of the 41m votes cast in last month's disputed presidential election, the electoral authorities have missed a good opportunity to dispel doubts about the fairness of a contest won narrowly by Felipe Calderon, the candidate for the centre-right National Action Party.

To say that is not to endorse the claims of Andres Manuel LopezObrador, the candidate who came a close second.

The leftwing former mayor of Mexico City has shown a worrying propensity to resort to the streets and ignore legal process. The occupation by his supporters of large areas of the centre of Mexico City violates laws guaranteeing free movement introduced by his own municipal administration.

It is an approach that risks alienating supporters and even members of his Party of the Democratic Revolution (PRD), which did exceptionally well in the congressional poll and is now the second biggest political force in Mexico. Party members who won seats will feel increasingly uneasy about sacrificing those gains by supporting an ever more radical movement.

All of this makes any decision by the electoral authorities more difficult. Even so, a full recount still offers the best way forward. Many Mexicans continue to believe there was foul play.

The country may have moved on from the days of outright theft of elections but for many voters the memory is relatively recent and accusations carry weight. According to recent opinion polls, almost 50 per cent were in favour of a full recount.

Whether perceptions of fraud are well founded or not, opposition anger could well fuel discontent, adding to instability in poor states and aggravating social polarisation. Last month's poll revealed a sharp regional divide, with Mr Calderon winning the better-off north and Mr Lopez Obrador dominant in the less developed and more isolated south of the country.

In the partial recount that begins tomorrow electoral authorities will review votes from about 9 per cent of polling stations. If they find significant discrepancies between the initial and revised counts, the recount could be extended. A full recount is not risk- free. Not only would it be lengthy and laborious, if poorly handled it could offer opportunities for further vote tampering. But the benefits far outweigh the disadvantages.

Properly supervised and conducted transparently - possibly including live video feeds of the count - it offers the best way to ease political tensions, ensuring that whoever emerges as Mexico's new president is not only legal but is also seen to be legitimate.

Mexico's democracy has made impressive strides in recent years. It must now avoid self-inflicted wounds.

20060808L112.037

Document FTFT000020060808e28800020

Why, TG, my attempts of expressing clearly and forcefully my opinion has to be made equal to me being angry? I guess that some here prefer convoluted speech...

Pasilla,

I think that the person that used the term that you take offense to only wanted to point out that Mexico is not only the DF. Although, the rest of us think that most "capitalinos" think that it is. I do not contest the fact that it is the largest and most diverse city in our country. But, it is not the only important city in Mexico. It is not unusual that most of the protests are focused there. That is because it happens to be the seat of power of our federal government.

We have seen only minor incidents in the north. Based on the type of protests that we have seen like rotating 24 hour "hunger strikes", we don't think that the allegations that this will cause nationwide ungovernability are a little exaggerated. The DF is not the country.

Thank you TG, it is amazing how a little regiional criticism seems to rile those grasping at straws... The reason I DESPISE some (certainly not all) capitalinos is because the lesser ones seem to indeed see themselves as the saviors of the rest of the country. Mexico City is the reason Mexico is not a third world country... nor a first world one.

"many of the defenders of the "peace and order" (as AMLO said: what peace are they talking about, the peace of Don Porfirio, the peace of the graveyards?) lack the words to define reality and recur to all sort of psycobabble and offensive epithets to refer to that person..."

Am I the only one that finds the last quote Orwellian? Attacking another point of view as "psychobabble" and "offensive epithets" while doing exactly so in the same paragraph is a master example of Rovian bait and switch. Who would have thought Pasilla was a Bush voter?

"other more modern and hard-working parts of the country..."

I didn't write that. Besides, what the heck are you talking about, Gabriel? What does "doing exactly so" mean? "Psychobabble" and "epithet" are nouns... Can you explain to me how can they be themselves epithets? Why don't you rather go read Animal Farm? Obviously not all animals are equal...

I couldn't help but laugh at the picture of Felipe Calderón in Ceci's post today... what an unflattering picture!

Yesterday I heard one very interesting opinion on the TEPJF decision. In the show "Entre Tres", (oh yes, I forgot to mention Reyes Heroles and Silva Herzog are all psycho, fascits, AMLO bashers - how dare they criticise El Peje!)they mentioned that the ruling of the TRIFE is actually a juridical victory for AMLO's camp. The whole vote by vote recount was a hoax from the begining since they did not complaint on the 130 000 casillas. They only did on 20 000 on the basis of "error y dolo" meaning, fraud. The other ones were filled with other types of complaints, minor ones. The TEPJF decided to open more that 11 000 which is about 54% of what AMLO's camp were asking. Experts say that is quite a large number of casillas since they represent nearly 3 million votes. And they even express that those were the only casillas in the whole country with mayor errors so, in case that there had been a fraud on the making some "cochinero", those were the places where it occured. It is importat to say that the PAN has always been against a recount of any kind and this ruling is actually a punch against Calderón's strategy.

What is most interesting is that AMLO's camp are so obtuse (for not using another adjective) to notice they actually have won something. They are installed in an all or nothing attitude that is making them lose what they have already gained. Why are they acting like this? The answer seems to be pretty simple. Even with the recount of the 11 000 casillas they still have nothing going on to revert the result.

Now AMLO has said that he wants to "purify" the country and clean up evry single institution. Really? Like Chávez cleaned up every single institution in Venezula in his favor? No, thanx, I'll pass on that one.

Meanwhile, AMLO keeps saying that the poor come firts while sipping a Mocha Latte Venti from Starbucks in his platón in the Zocalo. (One good friend of mine went to the Zocalo to try to talk out her 85 yr. old mother from living on the streets and saw that happening). Marcelo Ebrard is also going to be there to show some support as soon as he finishes opening up his wedding gifts from El Palacio de Hierro and doing photoshoots for the high society magazine Quién.

So they all seem to stand for the old-school left wing, the poor ones first, statism, no imperialism, nationalism, blah, blah. And what do they do to show they are serious? Shop in Starbucks and El Palacio de Hierro. That's some moral leadership! Are they "fresas" in diguise?

So, bunburina, are all of us who believe that the poor deserve better condemn to poverty, lest we are called by you what, "fresas" in disguise? Did you come up with that bright logic all by yourself, or you picked it up from Patty Mercado speeches?

It is obvious all animals are not equals. Go and read Orwell's "Homage to Catalonia" and see how a leftist such as him (and me) still places "decency" and respect for third parties above party loyalty or ideological purity.

Pasilla forgets he quotes his hero as accusing all who are against him as closet Porfirians who would rather have full graveyards instead of voting for him. That is engaging in the act of reading an opponents motivations, which is another word for psychobabble. And you accuse others of doing it while engaging in it yourself. No comprende?

pasilla, this might help:

Controlling Anger Before it Controls You
The goal of anger management is to reduce both your emotional feelings and the ... 750 First Street, NE, Washington, DC 20002-4242 Telephone: 800-374-2721

As a very casual observer of the Mexican election, I feel we as citizens are missing something important. This is really quite similar to the Bush/Gore thing a couple of elections back. Now think, a quarter percentage point or so either way makes a huge difference, think of what it would have been like if Gore had actually become president for a moment. Better, worse, certainly different, right? Same thing for Mexico now. Okay, my real beef with all of this, well, a couple of bevos. First, I wonder how many people thought they were voting for George senior? I bet enough to have changed the outcome. And if the third party vote that was not messed up in Florida, Gore would have won. Who was it, Buchanan, Nadar, I have already forgotten. Should history turn on such as this? So anyway, for one thing, we have some very uninformed people voting who are putting these things over the top to begin with. Not sure what the answer on this is, to me, it would be fine if we had to prove a basic knowledge of civil affairs (kinda like the test to become a citizen) before we could vote. However, even more radical than that, I do not agree with the all or nothing aspect of a presidential election. Why can I not choose a conservative economic philosopy and a liberal social viewpoint? Why do I not have the choice to really choose based on the individual issues? It seems to me that our system really does not represent us to the extent it should. I say we push for a system where we can vote for or against the important issues of our day, without having to be stuck with all of the party line viewpoints that come along with a major party candidate. If our votes really meant something on the major issues, I think it would encourage us all to be more informed on what is really going on out there. Perhaps this system was the best that could be come up with 200 some odd years ago, but now, we have the technology to directly participate. If we are a modern people, let's show it. I don't see how the direct decisions of the people could be any worse than the ones made by our leaders. Y tu, amigos?

Have you ever listened to Patricia's Mercado's speeches? Of course not because you obviously have no idea what she stands for.

What I'm asking from them is coherance. Let's see, among many other things AMLO has called entrepreneurs parasites, he has said that the best foreign policy is the domestic policy, he had marked his distance with EEUU, he has said that the State is going to provide the much needed jobs, he has called people from the middle and upper class "pirruris" and implied that the rich ones have earned their wealth by exploiting the poor. He's repeatedly said that he understands them, the underdogs, the chusma, the nacos, the second class mexicans. And then goes out and shops in Starbucks, one big american, global franchise. And Marcelo Ebrard gets married and outstanding memebers of the high society, oh excuse me, "pirruris", are invited and asks for some super expensive designer cristal wear from El Palacio de Hierro. That's called hypocrisy. At least the Comandante Cero lives in the jungle. I bet AMLO would be delighted to be on the cover of Caras and Quién.

One of the characteristics of the modern day left wing is the good relations with the entrepreneurial class without leaving aside the welfare state. The modern left doesn't question the capitalist economical system, like the one we have. They don't question globalization. They embrace it and use it on their favor because globalization, well channeled, benefits the people; foreign investment, a strong entrepreneurial class brings wealth to the poor ones. The State has a small, if not unexistant role on the economy and it does what it should do: look out for the people, make for social unequalities, defend the basic human rights of the minorities.

Nationalism, statism, like AMLO supports is an outdated idea. Look up for the left-wing economic and social models that have been succesful. They aren't Cuba, North Corea, Venezuela. They are Scandinavia, Spain, Germany, the entire European Union, even China. Multilateral, globalized, open economies.

You once said that you don't understand our modern left view and the K. Vronna and I sound almost PANista. In the economical aspect we might have coincidences since anyone with two neurons understand that globalization and free trade is something we must live with and take advantage of, not run away from. But the difference with the modern left and the PAN is that the first ones are liberalon the social aspect while the PAN is conservative. The modern day left is pro-choice, pro-gay rights, strong welfare state. Stuff that AMLO has completely ignored and that the PAN will hardly support. AMLO on the other side sounds like a moderate, mini version of Castro in his early days, Allende if we are optimistic. Are we living in the 60's or 70's? NO! The Cold War was a tough time for the left wing, leftist were presecuted and murdered. But we are far from those times and AMLO and his people need to get over the romantic idea of a people's revolution simply because we now have the mechanisms to make the social reforms we need in peace. No one wants a revolution. No one.

Gabriel:

Do you really need the spanglish ("No comprende?")? I'm sorry, but no, I don't understand your "creative" associations between pieces of my writing: who did call you (or anybody else, for that matter) "porfiriano de closet"? What's the deal with the "full graveyards"? Aren't you "engaging in the act of reading an opponents motivations" by calling AMLO "my hero"? Can you try a little harder to see if what you attempt to say becomes clear?; that, obviously, if you care to communicate...

K. Vronna:

You are repeating your "joke." What, in my opinion, would really help would be if you refrain from using Televisa-style humor...

Bunburina:

I confess: My two neurons are full. What I can grasp of your ranting is that you are a modern leftist if you are pro-choice, but an ancient one one if you drink Starbucks coffee... Or it may be the reverse; who knows? I'm just trying to make sense of your delirant speech. Has AMLO ignored the strong welfare state? Well, go tell that to PAN followers...

Here's a link to a "distilled" conversation between the Mayor Mexico City - A PRD member - and journalist/writers Elena Poniatowska at my blog highwayscribery.

http://highwayscribery.blogspot.com

"I confess: My two neurons are full."

You said it not I!

You're an acient leftist if you have a problem with being rich, if you see it as inmoral or as a sin. If someone has made his or her money honestly and likes to spend it in designer, expensive stuff, fine. Just don't go around calling them parasites, pirruris, exploiters and then do the exact same things they do. Is that so hard to understand? Do you want me to draw it or explain it with apples?

And opening universities with doubtful academic elevl and giving the elderly cheques and coercing them to go and sit in Reforma is hardly a strong welfare state.

I think Lic. Felipe Calderon Hinojosa, hereto be called "The Elected President" has maintained a clever and intelligent attitude towards the who post-electoral process. What I mean is, while Humpty Dumpty sails over new and unexplored lands leading his followers somewhere already too far from Mexico and too late too make a come back, The Elected President has been cool. He has been making alliances with Labor Unions and organizations and talking to the PRI, Partido Verde, Nueva Alianza, Alternativa and other political organizations as well. The Elected President is preparing the grounds to have a great coalition that will help him get his reforms passed on congress.
Humpty Dumpty is helping also, because many people who voted for him are now disgruntled by Humpty Dumpty and his fiascos and they are seeing a calm, intelligent, clever and patience man in The Elected President of Mexico Lic. Felipe Calderon Hinojosa.
Humpty Dumpty is helping make sure the PRD never, ever wins in any presidential election.

A good time for Mexico is coming. PEMEX will be sold to those firms offering more money, usually North Americans, but it's OK, we all love their tasty and flamboyant burgers and their movies. Catholicism will be established as the only and official religion in the country. CFE and Luz y Fuerza will be also privatized, there would be many national companies interested: Hildebrando Energy, Banamex Energy, Sabritas Energy, etc. We will save the gringos the shame of building a wall at the border, we will just extend the border down to Guatemala, it is easier to build a wall down there.
Meantime the country will continue with the progressive advancement of Shopping malls and Golf courses in idle lands of beautiful south Mexico that previously occuppied by impoverished and disenfrancised farmers who kindly donated their lands and of course in exchange for their priceless contributions they will enfranchise all of them: they will give them the opportunity to work at American franchises like Mcdonalds, Whataburger, Carl's Juniors and the like. There they will have the opportunity to adquire knowledge and know-how of the new technologies of the milennia: automated dish-washers, microwave ovens and squeegees.

the highway scribe:

Looks to me like you have a dogmatic, brain-washed, misinformed and one-sided web log allright.

So, if I'm filthy rich, but happy, and don't use expressions like "parasites, pirruris, exploiters..." I'm a new leftist...

On the other hand, if I'm very poor, and very unhappy, and never, ever say: "parasites! pirruris! exploiters!" what am I, a new or an old leftist?

This dialog reminds me of that old quotation that says that if Kafka had been a Mexican, he would be a writer of realist novels...

That emptyboxes look-alike almost fooled my two neurons...

There are no modern welfare states that I know of, they are all a falacy in my opinion and modern Social Democrats like Zapatero and others in Europe know that very well and ever more they are all adapting the social and economical institutions the United States has created and the same ones that have maintained that country as the most important economical, technological, commercial and military power in the world for the last one hundred years or so.
In the United States, the Democrats developed what they called Affirmative Action Programs, but the forces of the free market and globalization did much more than that by doing away with racism in the most effective way in the workplace and the marketplace in the United States, where already no business can afford to close the door to any customer with some money in his or her pocket and regardless of their color or nationality or religion and in the workplace competition is so hard at all levels and in all industries and markets, that no company can afford to reject new talented and prepared and very fit young professionals regardless of the color of their skin, their regilion, nationality or gender. We see this everyday in all competitive and world class companies where the most talented and prepared people are the ones who get the best positions. Open any business magazine today and you will likely find successful executives of all ages, races, genders and all kinds, african-americans, latinos, asian-americans, etc.
Globalization has brought the end of racism because the last thing a company cares for today is the color of your skin. We see this everywhere. Japanese executives in charge of American companies and viceversa, there is a French executive in charge of Nissan, a great Japanese car company, the Japanese were famous for their close society and racism. And the same happens in the United States where Mexicans are already directing movies and american corporations the same.

Communism did exactly the oppossite, it exacerbated nationalism, regionalism and ethnicity. Today Bolivians associate socialism with the rise of native americans, not poor sons and daughters of bolivia regardless of their color. Here in Mexico, United Colors of Benetton-Subcomandante Marcos have also brain-washed the Mayan population they control. I see pure racism in Marcos's cocaine poems about the color of the corn and the color of the earth, that is pure racism and a call to end with a plural Mexico. Our constitution is suppose to make us equal. Crazy and retrograde ideologies are trying to separate us.
Now these frustrated intolerant and totalitarian stalinists are mixing and changing the color of their dialectical materialism to fit the poor indigenous peoples of latin america and they are selling some in the poorest and most uneducated regions of our nations, but they will not succed.

As I was driving through TJ on my way home this afternoon, I found myself behind a car with several AMLO stickers on the bumper. And I was struck by what was happening to this car in Tijuana, a PANista stronghold if ever there was one (Hank Rhon excepted). What was happening? Not a thing. The bumper stickers were being ignored. Which raises the question, if a car with PAN stickers drives around the Zocalo in Mexico, will it also be left in peace? I doubt it.

I had really hoped that the race/class card was obsolete and would be forever discarded as a false political concept. What a shame that this HATE tactic has become fashionable in Mexico. Whether it's "Screw the rich!" or "Screw the nacos!" you're barking up the wrong tree. Our interdependence will force us to overcome mutual prejudices or we will see our nation fall into irreconcilable divisions.

Jerry B:

Not if it's driven through PRD encampments in Reforma...

That, over there, sounds like the old and real emptyboxes: one-sided, twisting the facts to fit his preconceptions (or I should say, prejudices?)... But this time more "colorful" than his usual self: a true rainbow in the land of Fox, I mean, Oz...

His message? In medical terms: wild capitalism is a cure all, although a strong medicine of prolonged release, with serious adverse effects for a few million low-lifes, due to its social-darwinist mode of action... Nothing ridiculous as "Por el bien de todos, primero los pobres," but rather "Por el bien de los chic@s (bien), hasta abajo los pobres (sobre todo si ademas son "nacos...")"

Now I go to read my copy of "The Anacostia CEO." It publishes an interesting article on a Palestinian fellow who directs an Israeli weapons company...

Pasilla: It seems to me your ideology is based on hatred and nothing else. You seem to blame everyone for the poor people.

Poor people will always exist everywhere because such is the nature of the human being. In rich capitalist countries there will always be poor people, in germany and france and also in the communist countries, they also had poor people in their heyday.

Here in Mexico I have seen many poor people. I have seen many of them work hard day and night and open their own business and get out of poverty one day, others gone to the USA to work hard and return and buid a house and live better. I see them and I take my hat off, I look them in the eyes, they are complete people.
But I also see others, the kind of people I seem to see in those meetings of AMLO, the ones that extend their hand to receive, they beg and ask and demand. These are the underachievers, the ones who do not want to work hard, look at them, they are willing to stay with AMLO at the camps, I guess they have figuered if AMLO wins the government will take care of their lives. They are poor because they want to be.

Independent, hard working people who value their belongings that are the product of hard work, do not throw everything for a messianic leader. Responsible, hardworking people obey the law because the law protects their economic achievements. They struggle to live better and know very well that no government will ever make you or anyone else live better than yourself.

I am sorry for those poor people but their poverty is in their minds. The world is there for the taking. I have seen mayans opening new businesses in Los Angeles. The best medical centers and hospitals of houston are full of Mexican doctors from Yucatan, and when you see their faces and talk to them and see where they came from, you cannot but take your hat off and recognize the greatness of our people.

Now it seems some financial institutions in Mexico and Overseas are begining to cast doubts on our economic strenght due to AMLO protests.

But the first and most affected by an economical crisis will be the poorest people in our country. The one that demagoge claims to care for. They will be the ones to lose their jobs first as the internal market shrinks and when inflation rises they will be the first to be hit.

But this thug does not care. There will be a moment very soon when the Federal Government will have to intervene and kick them the hell out of Reforma and the Zocalo. There is no way our country is going to have a crisis for this thug's ambitions.

Living here in Mexico and reading some of these comments are both enlightening as well as interesting. PASILLA: Find one CHILANGO that does not liked to be called that, if anything it has become a term of endearement. I think it is important to highlight that the radicalism taking place in Mexico CIty is not a thermometer for the rest of the country, although it may appear to be. Here, in Guadalajara, people are accepting the elections and moving on. AMLO, as emptyboxes has said, has recruited lazy people with mixed up ideologies. I have many friends and coworkers in Mexico City, many of them voted for AMLO and truly disillusioned with him and as most unfounded political protests in Mexico, AMLO will be sitting alone at the Zocalo 10 yrs from now. Mexico City and the rest of Mexico is still a great place to visit. Despite AMLO.

No, it's not a joke, pasilla; it's for your own good that you control your anger and resentment. I say this from experience; I wasted many irreplaceable years of my life cryin' & moanin' about politics and how unfair life was until I decided to live it and DO SOMETHING TO REALLY HELP THE POOR. The poor want jobs, businesses and equal opportunity and to be left alone by the metiche pols that are always looking out for #1.

This is not personal. It's just that your sarcasm doesn't come off as genuine debate; you belittle your blogmates and try to come off as Mr. Intellectual From On High. Try to be a little more engaging, less condescending, and prove to Bunburina & me that you're not some bitter misogynist. I'm sure that most of us participants will be more than happy to debate your ideas if you would be more diplomatic in your posts.

Totally agree with you emptyboxes.

I have a small business and employ 5 local people here. I´m not Mexican, but my wife is. We could have stayed in the UK, worked anywhere in Europe, or even further afield, but we decided to return to Mexico and try to make a go of it here. So far, I haven´t made a single peso profit, but I pay my staff well and on time. I foresee that after these first three years of hard work, I should hopefully turn a profit in the next 12 months. Have I done something wrong Passila? Have I stolen from the poor, or have I made sacrifices for an eventual (I hope) better future, which will reward me, and my staff, along with allowing me to expand and employ more people?

Maybe, according to AMLO, I should just give it all to the sourthern poor and P@@s of back to where I came from. Well, if AMLO starts to play up with the many small entrepreneurs in Mexico, I´ll leave anyway.

That will be 5 families without an income.

Real jobs, and real wealth come from the private sector, not makework government schemes. You only have to look over the Northern border to see that in effect. California on it´s own would be the seventh richest country in the world. Why can´t Mexico, which has some of the most hard working and ingenious people I have ever met, do one half as good as that?

Peter N, you sound like a class oppressor. You should be liquidated, or at the least, sent off for re-education. Pasilla, no, I suppose if the carload of PRDistas drove through a PAN encampment (oops, there aren't any, we express our anger through the ballot boxes) there would have been problems too. You seem to have a wierd sense of moral equivalency. Anything AMLO does is OK, because the PAN does it to. So, a whole platoon of PRIistas who back AMLO, including many who were directly involved in the fraud of '88 is offset by the worm Gordillo. Violent personal attacks on Fox (traitor!) Calderon, and Calderon's family are OK because an add compared AMLO to Chavez. (Incidentally, the spot was a lie, AMLO is not like Chavez, he is far crazier.) La Jornada is so one sided in this discussion it makes the UK Guardian or Ivzestia look open minded. That is OK in your world, because Reforma actually tries to present both sides. And, finally, agression against PANistas in chilangolandia is OK because a drunk driver took out a PRD tent.

You live in an interesting universe.

You also said, sarcastically, that "Wild Capitalism is a cure-all". As I mentioned once, from your posts you make me think you live in or near the District of Columbia. If true, you live in the capital of the country of wild capitalism. Seen anyone starving lately?

Checking on Alternativa's website

http://www.alternativadf.org.mx/j/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1&Itemid=2

I found and interesting website, much better that PAN or PRD's in design and very interesting in the way they appeal to their potential voters and members, those who are beyond the typical televisa and tv azteca clientele. Those who think and want a more socially and collectively oriented society but understanding and respecting the right of the individual to pursue its hapiness as he or she sees fit. They do not suffer from prejudices against the individual and in favor of the collective, they respect both.

And I find it very interesting how, the two new parties in our young democracy represent the best and the worst of our politics. The Past and The Future.

Nueva Alianza, represents the corporativism and corrupted leaders like Elba Ester Gordillo. They got their votes because, sadly for us, corporativism still exists in our country. They represent the past.

Alternativa, represents a new trend in advanced democracies and it is clear Patricia Mercado and her people looked at the European model and brought some new fresh ideas to Mexico. They appealed to the most sofisticated voters in our society. I guess that is why they did not get many votes from Monterrey, because we are a bunch of panista morons here, but Alternativa indeed got their votes from the thinking people of this country and not through corporativism or clientele groups. It amazes me that so many free thinking people voted for them and gave them a vote of confidence.

It was also interesting to hear of Patricia Mercado when she came to the ITESM and gave a talk. Everybody welcomed her with huge enthusiasm.

I have some neighbours who happened to be a big fan of this new party. They are a portrait of the impression we get from this party and its leaders, they are open minded, courteous, open to questioning, ready to criticize and to recognize the good or bad things in the other parties. A real modern and free thinking Mexican left.

You know, if AMLO would have deigned to visit ITESM, as I believe he was invited, he probably would have won the election.

Wow! It would take me forever to address each and every one of the stements that I judge false. Therefore, I'll limit myself to one or two per person...

emptyboxes:

As usual, yours are the wildest ones, and obviously the most abundant:

"I am sorry for those poor people but their poverty is in their minds..."

I invite you to leave your plush existence to go tell somebody who earns minimum wage that he or she is not poor, but that they only think that they are poor...

robles:

I, a native of Mexico City, dislike the term "chilango" as I explained before. You have found one: me.

K. Vronna:

"pasilla; it's for your own good that you control your anger and resentment..."

Thanks for your motherly advice, but I dare to say that psychologists have a great term for this type of statements out of the blue; they call them "projections..." I'm sorry, but I don't believe that I have to prove anything to anybody. I say what I think; as far as I know, I have not insulted anybody. So be it...

PeterN:

"Maybe, according to AMLO, I should just give it all to the sourthern poor..."

Maybe you should get more information. AMLO has been very clear about what entepreneurs he doesn't favor: those who profit from political connections, in detriment of the people; those who can afford accountants to find loopholes to get away paying far less than their fair share in taxes...

Jerry B:

When I mention facts, I don't make a value judgment: you do. Perhaps I'm trying to do what your beloved Reforma does: be the check among AMLO haters. Cannot you come up with a fresh argument against AMLO? I have forgotten the number of times that you have used his association with former PRI members against him. This is a game played often by PAN and his followers: if you cannot find dirt on him, attack his associates. Old trick. That was the intention of the famous videos.

"As I mentioned once, from your posts you make me think you live in or near the District of Columbia. If true, you live in the capital of the country of wild capitalism..."

Never mind Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, welfare, unemployment insurance, student loans, etc., etc. Of course, progressives should remain watchful of American politicians who inspire extremism like emptyboxe's... Why would be odd if I live in the DC area? We participate in a blog sponsored by the Washington Post, dont we?

Well, guys and gals, keep going. I'm gonna bed. Sweet "Calderon President" dreams...

Jerry B.: I think you are right.
And that is what I never understood. AMLO never came and he never did anything to appeal to the traditional voters in this region, or even a short visit to the TEC or even to our UANL would have given him a few more votes. It was as though he has a profound dislike for us. Because he was here in Montemorelos for a very short time and he also was in Nuevo Laredo and the closest he got to Monterrey was a very short visit to Guadalupe.
He would have won had he shown more interest for other regions of the country where Felipe Calderon got more votes.

Pasilla, it is not odd that you live in the DC area. But, if you have open eyes, and compare DC or anywhere in the "wildly capitalist" United States with Mexico, you ought to be able to see where people, even poor people paying student loans that they never would have gotten in the first place in Mexico, live better. And it is no accident. Capitalism when mixed with democracy works. Period. AMLO's corporative socialism does not.

Read about this:

Expresa coalición dudas sobre jueces y magistrados que apoyarán recuento

Enrique Méndez

08/08/2006 20:54

Here:

http://www.jornada.unam.mx:8080/expresa-coalicion-dudas-sobre-jueces-y-magistrados-que-apoyaran-recuento

Empty Boxes, I think AMLO assumed he would win by acclamation, since "the people" all love him. Error.

I actually watched the TV news last night, something I rarely do, and got a look at one of AMLO's discurses. As he would say something (Nos quedamos o nos vamos?, Estan de acuerdo?) the crowd would howl back SI or NO. It vaguely reminded me of old newsreal clips of rallies in Munich or Berlin presided over by Herr Hitler.
It also poses the question. Suppose the recount favors him, and he wins. Is this how he is going to govern? When the PAN plurality in congress shoots down all his bold plans, will he convoke a crowd to "tomar" congress?

K. Vronna, I have been saying from Day 1 that if a recount does not favor AMLO, he will just say that the recounters have been corrupted and continue his games.

I really hope all the chilangos who voted for AMLO are enjoying their commutes along Reforma. Mine is rather quick, but then I live in the north where we do not have to put up with this stupidity...

Emptyboxes:

You pretty much summed up why Bunburina, myself and more than a million more free-thinking souls voted for PASC. Thanks.

Nice and tranquil where I live, like Doña Florinda, my neighborhood reporter likes to say, "Pecamos de tranquilos en esta colonia".

ANALYSIS OF DATA FROM MEXICAN ELECTION RECOUNT RAISES SERIOUS QUESTIONS
Study Recommends More Transparency for Wider Recount That Begins This Week
Contact:
Mark Weisbrot, 202-746-7264
Dan Beeton, 202-293-5380 x 104; 202-256-6116 (cell)

Washington, D.C.: An analysis of the first partial recount of Mexico's presidential election raises a number of questions about the electoral process, most importantly about its transparency. The study, conducted by the Center for Economic and Policy Research (CEPR), also found a number of unexplained anomalies in the data.
"Mexico's electoral authorities should be conducting a impartial inquiry into what happened in this election, and making the results known to the public as accurately and quickly as possible," said Mark Weisbrot, Co-Director of CEPR and co-author of this report. "It is clear that they did not fulfill this responsibility for the first partial recount."
Among the problems with the transparency of the first recount, which encompassed about 2.2 percent of the ballot boxes, are:
It has taken a month since the recount for the results to be posted on the web site of the Federal Electoral Institute (IFE), as opposed to the original count, which was posted immediately. The information from the first recount should have been immediately available because it is very relevant to the Federal Electoral Tribunal's decision regarding the larger recount, which begins tomorrow.
The results posted still do not sufficiently explain what happened in the recounted areas. For example, some 116 ballot boxes apparently lost an average of 63 percent of their votes in the recount. The IFE has still not explained to the public how this happened or where these votes went.
An analysis of the recounted ballots also shows a number of anomalies. For example:
Most of the difference between the recounted and the original totals is due to 116 ballot boxes that lost an average of 63 percent of their votes during the recount. These were largely ballot boxes that contained more than the proscribed limit of 750 votes.
Not all of the ballot boxes that had more than 750 votes were re-opened. The ones that were opened had a significantly higher percentage of votes for Lopez Obrador than the ones that were not opened. This raises the possibility that the recount gave Lopez Obrador a net loss of votes because of the way in which these "over voted" ballot boxes, which lost most of their votes during the recount, were selected to be opened.
The majority of the null votes (17,129 or about 2 percent of the total votes) in the recounted ballot boxes were removed in the recount. The IFE did not explain whether any of these null votes became valid votes in the recount. If so, this is potentially important because the total number of null votes in the presidential race is more than three times the margin of difference between the two top candidates.
The authors note that it is possible that these and other anomalies found in the recounted data, described in the paper, have reasonable explanations. However, what is most difficult to explain is the lack of transparency in the process and the inordinate amount of time that the IFE has taken to publicize information - still very incomplete - on the recount that has taken place.
"It is unfortunate that the Federal Electoral Tribunal made a decision about which ballot boxes to recount before the results of this first partial recount were explained to the public," said Weisbrot. "Furthermore, if this new recount is not conducted very differently than the last one, it is difficult to see how it will be of much use in obtaining a credible result."
The full paper is available at http://www.cepr.net/publications/mexico_recount_2006_08.pdf
The Center for Economic and Policy Research is an independent, nonpartisan think tank that was established to promote democratic debate on the most important economic and social issues that affect people's lives. CEPR's Advisory Board of Economists includes Nobel Laureate economists Robert Solow and Joseph Stiglitz, and Richard Freeman, Professor of Economics at Harvard University.

I partly agree with emptyboxes that hard work and education are the main answers to come out of poverty. I have one good example at home. My father comes from a very poor family from Tlaxcala and moved, when he was very young, to Mexico city looking for a chance to improve their living standard. Turns out my grandfather, who was a shoemaker's assistant, died some years later and my dad and my uncle had to take care for the family. My dad had been working two jobs since he was 13 years old. He went to public shools all his life and graduated from UNAM while handling another three jobs, one of them as a message boy in a big multinational firm. Turns out that thanks to his hard work the company started promoting him even paying him a masters degree in Canada. He retired from the company with some killer job and earning a very good salary. My uncle? He dropped out from secundaria and took some job in a factory as an unskilled worker. He's 80 years old and he's still being poor. He lives from a monthly allowance my dad gives him.

Of course, it is also true that it is nearly impossible for some people to even go to school or eat decently. I know you can't learn something when you don't have shoes and are malnourished or need to work 10 hours a day. That's where the governmet needs to make up for social unequalities. All people should have free basic medical assitance so they can go on with their lifes without worrying about losing their few belongings to buy some medicine. There is no bigger tragedy than being poor and sick. We need an IMSS that is not putting a kidney instead of a heart or that doesn't have enough medicines to attend the people.

All people should have at least some basic nutritional level. The free breakfasts in schools are definetely a good idea. We need a competitive public education, take care of our teachers. Economical incentives to keep people sending their kids to school. Economical incentives for family planning. Unemployment insurance to keep people from falling into poverty again. A good, decent, retirement system, no some nonsense of a charity. And jobs, jobs, jobs, and more jobs. Fiscal incentives and less paper-work for new business. Stronger sanctions for tax evasion. And less informal economy.

What I definetely don't agree is higher education for all. Free, yes. But for everyone, no. No admission exam, no thesis, no tests are simply stupid. The Universidad del Distrito Federal is such a joke. The best education should go for the best students. Survival of the fittest. I believe you do have to work your butt off to earn your title not just warm up the chair and graduate 16 years later like my beloved AMLO (who by the way wants to change the economical system while failing the same subject in college). The last thing the country needs is more mediocre lawyers or doctors. That's why the UNAM lost so much of its name. There was a time when rich and poor all went to the UNAM because it was THE university. Nowadays, if someone has the means to send their kids somewhere else they'll do it without thinking it twice. The UNAM has to have a real academic level to compete with private universities.

Wow! Thanx emptyboxes! Finally someone reads a little more about the PASC and knows that it is a lot more than a small party led by the cute woman with the blueish-greenish jacket that spoke nice in the debate.

The key phrases of your post:

"...brought some new fresh ideas to Mexico." and "A real modern and free thinking Mexican left."

Bunburina, why should higher education be "free"? Because, of course, it is not free, it is paid for by your and my tax money. Free higher education, with admissions standards, gives us something like Brazil today, where the various levels of government spend as much on university education as they do on primary and secondary. What is the result? Those who cannot afford private schools learn very little in public elementary schools. They then fail the entrance exams to university. Who gets in, for free? The children of the rich, who can afford private schools, and cramming classes for the admissions tests. Taking, once again, the American example would be a better idea, I think. Basically anyone who wants to can go to university. They just have to pay for it. (Or join the army and let the army pay...) Which is why, statistically, more members of the lower middle class and lower class in America attend university than any other country in the world.

bunburina:

I always thought Patricia Mercado's campaign was a lot more than giving a few condons away in the corner of the street like many in PAN and PRD wished people to believe.
I actually read about her and heard her with attention.
She and her party is a real break away from the marxism, lenininsm, stalinism, and castrism that has characterized PRD, PT and Convergencia. The very reason why many people who had been normally be more inclined to support candidates from PRD, PT or Convergencia because of their social agendas but that at the same time get scared off by their radicalism and their proximity to totalitarian models.

Some people say that Patricia Mercado took votes away from AMLO. I say it was the oppossite, AMLO took many voter that would have gladly voted for Alternativa and who are probably regretting having voted for AMLO today. But the imperative of having a Leftists, it did not matter what kind of leftist, in Office forced many voters to decide for AMLO.
But those voters are still there and they will come back in the next elections and reward Alternativa for its moderation and modernity.

Goyito:

Are you still on cocaine conspiracy theories?
This dumb people from these institution made an analysis from 2.2 Polling packages that were marked as irregular by IFE precisely because the representatives of the parties found irregularities in the first place, but they were the only ones protested in July 2.
If they want to be objective about their conclusion they should pick a sample of actas from IFE and then run their cocaine statistical analysis.

¡Hablan de obedecer la ley, de acatar la ley, pero FOX y el PAN fueron los primeros en violarlo! ¡Ya estubo cabrones!
¡Solucion O Revolution!

Today it starts, and the world will be a witness; the recount (el recuento de los votos) of those 12thousand cassillas, will show that que reflejara inconsistencias.
Van a ver como se despeja any doubt que AMLO is the legitimate Presidente of Mexico
Of 133,000, only 12mil? Nimodo, but it will dejar ver, that hay que revisar every casilla. ¡Voto X Voto Casilla X Casilla!
¡Con AMLO Todo Con FECAL Nada!
¡Solucion O Revolution!

maya0

Just move to Cuba or Venezuela and let us build a better Mexico... you give leftist a bad name... read today's column by Castaneda, and see what a true, patriotic, progressive Mexican is really like. Ponte a trabajar, tu y todos los holgazanes acampados en la via publica de TODOS los mexicanos. You are so pathetic.

Top 10 reasons why Calderon is the best choice for Mexico:

1. First and foremost, Calderon will make sure that Mexico continues the trend set out by Echeverria, Lopez Portillo, De la Madrid, Salinas and Fox. What trend is that? The trend of a long list of accomplishments occurred in the last 30 yrs. of PRI-PAN government.

2. Calderon will make sure that 50% of Mexicans remain with an income of less than $1 dollar a day.

3. Calderon will make sure that the exodus of millions of unemployed Mexicans continue going to the USA.

4. Calderon will make sure that the lack of gains in science and technology occurred during the Echeverria, Lopez Portillo, De La Madrid, Salinas and Fox continue.

5. Calderon will make sure that Mexico remains a 3rd world country.

6. Calderon will make sure that none of the participants of the bank frauds committed every sexenio are brought to justice.

7. Calderon will make sure that the Durazos, Hank Gonzalez and Salinas are able to steal with absolute impunity.

8. Calderon will make sure that the income and social disparities between the Mexican north and south increase.

9. Calderon will make sure that millions of young Mexicans have limited access to quality education.

10. There has been absolutely no improvement in the living conditions in Mexico for the past 30 yrs. But thank God we have Calderon to maintain the status quo.

God bless you.

Gabriel, your just a quiche eating blowhard, who wouldnt know true work, if it bit u on the nalga. We only wish that Mexico had the medical advances and literacy rates of that tiny island of Cuba.
And if u care to chk, the per capita growth in Venezuela under Chavez has been humming along at 7 percent for the last 5 years. How is that bad?
Your the type Gabriel who wants to see the paja en others eyes, and fails to see the big log of caca in their own.
Here in the Real North, where am from, and where i live, ppl work for a living battling with the lovely desert.
Your kind is a cancer in the heart of Mexico that must be cut out and tossed away. No sirve, and must be replaced. You dont build on faluire. Thats like buliding a house out of sand, u get rid of the faluires of the past that the Pri and the Pan represent and make anew.
So pls step aside Gabriel, emptyboxes, jerry b, etc. etc. Get your houses ready in the United States. Here comes the Mexican version of the Miami exiles los Cubanos gusanos, the birth of The Gusanos Mexicanos.
¡Voto X Voto Casilla X Casilla!
¡Con AMLO Todo Con FECAL Nada!
¡Solucion 0 Revolucion!

Tambien soy norteno, babosa, y quiero un mejor pais... repito, si te gusta tanto Cuba y Venezuela, vete a vivir ahi, y dejanos al 65% que no votaron por AMLO construir un mejor pais.

It is interesting that a tribunal decision that really favored AMLO is portrayed as a blow against him. After all, the tribunal could have thrown out all the complaints and left the results stand as they were. By doing the partial recount and leaving open the possibility of doing more, the tribunal favored the PRD.

So how does the Stalinist camp react? They block off a few foreign banks and seize control of the highway tollbooths. The latter had to have been done with violence or at least the threat of violence. The tolerant federal government allowed this to happen so as not to create "martyrs" for AMLO to exploit.

Pasilla continues to go on about AMLO's promise to the poor. Jerry B and others have pointed out that countries where capitalism is well established tend to be more prosperous. There is also the fact that communism failed completely and the old Soviet Union disappeared.

Maybe Pasilla could take some time to explain just what plan AMLO had for alleviating poverty in Mexico. Maybe we have him all wrong. Maybe we should not be going by his speeches and his actions as jefe de gobierno en el distrito federal. Maybe pasilla knows of some plan or set of programs that really would reduce poverty and make Mexico something like Sweden, a socialist democracy where people live fairly well. I would like to hear about that from pasilla, because I have never heard it from AMLO.

Goyo:
The very fact that the Casillas to be opened are from locations where Felipe Calderon won should serve to prove that the TRIFE's desicion really favored AMLO.

In my opinion this will serve to strongly show how clean the process was. I am optimistical and I firmly believe it will.

But in all fairness, the TRIFE should have ordered a partial recount of a true sample of all Casillas in the country and not only those impugned by PRD.

Anyway, PAN is not hands down here and they have impugnated a number of Casillas in the south that strongly favored AMLO, and here is the trick about their impugnations, they are impugnating them not to have them recount but to annul them, and that is because those particular Casillas were set on wrong locations or the people or the IFE representatives were not the originally designated. They are some 500 of them, The PAN people file those complains for these Casillas on July 2, so they have the protest sheets and all they need to get them annulled and they are sure they will and AMLO is sure going to take a blow there when PAN gets its turn at Court.

Maya0

Please define where exactly "The Real North" is for me, you see I live in Chihuahua and know of very few people who "battle the beautiful dessert" Ánd while you´re about it, quit with the whole "Fecal" thing as well. And if you´ve can, while you´re about that, get a life. You express yourself like a 16 year old who has just come to believe communism in all its "fairness". It´s so fair in Cuba that Castro has his own entire private floor at the hospital there. Well, in fact he shares it with his brother, the crown prince Raul. Other Cubans have to pay (in the universal free health care system) for aspirin, and about 60 dollars for "extras" such as x'rays.

7% growth in Venezeula in 5 years? So thats about 40% altogether (compounded year on year). Since the price of oil has doubled in the same period, I don´t think he´s doing that good at all. And why does he need to spend 3 billion dollars on Russian arms? Does he really think it would make a difference? If he built a couple of refineries instead, then he might end up with some international power, but at the moment he has oil (largest customer: USA) but no means to refine it. He is dependent on other countries refining it for him.

As for your cries for a revolution, maybe if you start one the North will simply secede from the south. Than Adolfo Obrador can be president for life down there.

maya0,

What are you on? Where in heavens name is the REAL NORTH? The last time I looked, most of Mexico's North is a desert. Not just your little part of it. That fact did not stop our ancestors from trying to carve out a living in this God forsaken land and most of them didn't wait for the government to give them anything. If anyone in this country knows what hard work is, it is those who have tried to farm anywhere in the North. For most of us those were our grandparents or great grandparents. They were the ones that thought us our work ethics. So don't preach to us.

As for your opinion that medical advances and literacy make Cuba a great place to live. I guess that your idea of freedom is being a very healthy and well read, official books only, poor person. The fact that if you even think of doing what AMLO and his followers are doing would surely get you jailed or worse is of course of little importance.

Venezuela's economy is doing great because of oil prices and Chavez's hate for the gringos doesn't stop him from selling them 80% of Venezuela's oil. By the way, how are his poor people doing? How much has their income changed?

Jerry B, I'm not saying all higher education should be free but we most give even more support to those institutions of free higher education - with the condition of course that the educational level is competitive and the students in there are taking real advantage of it.

Let's see, for example, the son or daughter (who is intelligent and capable enough of a decent college title) of someone who's making $7 000 every two weeks, $14 000 per month. How much a private university costs in Mexico? $45 000 to $50 000 per semester? It is nearly impossible for someone earning $14 000 per month to pay it, even with some scholarship or financial aid. That's the kind of people who really will benefit from public higher education. And there is a lot of people, I'll say the majority, in thay situation.

I've been looking for the tuition fees of a semester in an Ivy League university in the USA and they are quite expensive. It is nearly $100 000 pesos per semester. I doubt that some kid, whose parents earn a little more than the minimum wage, can afford that even with some kind of financial aid. And it is pretty hard to get some since either you are a super genius or some kind of super athlete to actually get one. I think the german educational system is quite interesting. Not everyone graduates with a college title but everyone has some kind of higher education. They give a lot of importance to technical careers (what in Mexico would be the Conalep) and even if you're not smart enough to make it to college you can be sure you can at least aspire to some kind of decent job as a high skilled labor hand. I've know german carpenters or plumbers who live a lot better that many lawyers. And all that is for free.

Read this tiny piece of news. You never know who is going to benefit the recount:

http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/367672.html

Gabriel, chinga tu madre. Dont even know what maya mean, what a sap. Cuba and Venezuela, arent paradises, Mexico for my taste, is much better, however, u cannot take from Castro what hes done in his country, given the fact that the usa has been at war with him for almost 50years. And Chavez, well Gabriel, u have caca for brains, because its 7percent yearly, u tarado. And its not just oil, Venezuela has always had oil, but no growth for its people before, whats the diffrence now? Diffrent leadership from the same old crowd, which people like u represent, so step aside, please step aside. Because Mexico is a changing, if u like it or not, for real democratic change, not window dressing u joto.
Oh and when i say el norte de verdad, its deep in the northern states, not them cities stuck on a chian link fence to tio sam. And really now, its only one Mexico, its not divisiable by 2, no matter how much u ppl long 2b a add on of the jewnited states.
¡Voto X Voto Casilla X Casilla!
¡Con AMLO Todo, con FECAL Nada!
¡Solucion O Revolucion!

It seems that so far the difference in the recount had been minimal, of just one or two votes. Hardly a big elaborated fraud like AMLO claims.

Maya0, please calm down! Stop the name calling. You'll have a much better rsponse if you express calmly your arguments. Same for everyone else, calm down! Help us raise the level of debate in here.

Venezuela may have a growth of 7% due to oil or the way it is being managed right now, but we still have to see if it is really on the benefit of the common people. Of all people, not just the poor ones or those on Chávez side.

I think that saying "solución o revolución" is a bit dangerous to say. There will be a solution, but what if that solution doesn't satisfy AMLO? Is there going to be a revolution? I hope not since no one really wants violence and bloodshed in our country. I'm pretty sure 90% of mexicans will definetely agree that we need to keep peace alive and playing with the idea of a revolution is like playing with fire and you might get burned.

We need to understand that some people are on AMLO's side and some people are against him but at the end we are all mexicans and out future president, whoever might be, needs to govern for us all and satisfy our basic demans. For both, rich and poor, pro-american and anti-american. We have the right to have our voice heard. All of us.

maya0:

"User reviews and comments that include PROFANITY or PERSONAL ATTACKS or other inappropriate comments or material will be removed from the site."

Do you understand what this means or do want a translation? Don't know what the other participants think, but one more "mentada" and I'm reporting your rule breaking.

typical leftist answer when logic and reason is against him take what he can by force and damned be the rest.

bunburina..

Actually, getting an education at one of the top USA universities is possible for everyone with a high enough talent. This was written by a Harvard professor in an english newspaper 28th May this year:

"Ah, I hear you object, but what about those enormous fees? And it's true that tuition and fees at Harvard currently total $32,097, so putting your pride and joy through a four-year degree course could set you back roughly £70,000. But - and here's the key point - not if you cannot afford it. Because Harvard is rich, it can follow a "needs blind" admissions policy, based purely on academic criteria. If you get in and your family turns out to be poor, it is free."

Incidently, Harvard does not give free schorlarships to super athletes or super geniuses what it does do is provide grants, loans and on campus jobs.

All financial aid at Harvard is based on need, and almost 50 percent of students get direct grants averaging $14,500 a year, just under half the tuition bill. All grant recipients also receive loans, as do another 20 percent of the stuents. The average loan is $4,600.

You see, because it is private, most of the alumni thank their alma mater by giving very generously back to it, trusting that the instituition will wisely use the money for the benefit of students whatever their background. State controlled universities tend to have other motives in awarding aid and schorlarships, usually related to social engineering.

Of course, you still have to be smart enough to get in!

Having said all that, I do agree that education is probably the greatest means forward in lifting people out of poverty, but the standards have to remain high so that "a degree is a degree". In England, Blair has been trying to get 50% of school leavers into university, and many of them are just not suited to it. As a result degrees have been watered down to allow more people to pass, and we now have such high level studies as a BA in "Golf course management" - wouldn´t it be better to spend the three years actually working on a golf course to get experience? As a result of this watering down of first degrees, to get on you now need to have a second, further degree, because employers regard all first degrees as something almost anyone can get. This then leads to the fact that only people with supportive parents, or private income, can stay on to get one, which means the people they opened up the universities for in the first place are almost back where they started, if everyone can get a degree, what does it proove? A balance in increasing openings without diluting content is required.

Your point about the technical vocations I really agree with, in the UK as well, carpenters, electricians etc are paid vastly more than many lawyers, London even has a millionaire plumber, who now only works for the like of Madonna, Paul McCartney etc!!! I would encourage Mexico to really push forward on the technical vocations. These will help the country grow, and, if you have to emmigrate, Canada, Australia and other countries are crying out for people with these skills.

Maya0 What language are you writing? Apart from the childish insults you don´t really make much sense. I think you should get ready to be banned.

*** Looks to me like you have a dogmatic, brain-washed, misinformed and one-sided web log allright.

wow! looks who's talking here. Mr. Televisa-Reforma News (all good and balanced).

Hey everyone! Wonderful debates going on here.

I read that story about the one vote being added to AMLO from one of those casillas that is being recounted. As small as this lone vote plays into the scheme of things, already the Coalicion's legal team is saying how this is bona fide proof of massive fraud.

Its sadly obvious that these guys will do anything to make sure that everyone's hardwork in this election amounts to nothing all for the ambitions of AMLO. Irregularities of this size are more likely than not due to human error - I think the fraud charges should wait until we see real evidence of fraud like hundreds of votes being given to the wrong person or what have you. I personally believe - as voter last July 2nd - that this was a fair and clean election. I remember how excited everyone was that day to vote and how optimistic everyone was; now there's so much hatred and anger.

I seriously considered voting for AMLO and i stayed up the entire night before the voting trying to decide between him and Calderon because I liked how he wanted to help the poor. In the end i felt more jobs would be better than cross country bullet trains paid from non-existant funds from the government. I am so disillusioned with AMLO as I see now who he really is, and im glad I ultimately voted for so-called "Fecal".

"Actually, getting an education at one of the top USA universities is possible for everyone with a high enough talent..."

What, PeterN, is your idea of "high enough talent"? What is a "top USA university"?

Two little facts: a) You quote only tuition at Harvard; if you add room, board, books and other fees, the cost per year becomes above $40,000 USD per year; b) acceptance rate at institutions like Harvard and other Ivy League schools has remained at or below 20%; of course, if your daddy went to Yale... And if he was US President, it helps... As a matter of fact, this very paper, the Post, published an interesting piece in its weekend magazine under the provocative title "Is it worth it?" discussing the trade offs of a big post-graduation debt and an education in a prestigious (but very expensive) private school. People outside the US may be unfamiliar with the existence in the US of splendid public universities, which, by the way, we subsidize with out taxes. Student loans are not needed in Mexico, because education in public universities is almost free of charge. So tax money is involved in education on both sides of the border...

Now, regarding "technical" education... My fear is that the proponents of "wild capitalism" may want to follow a model in which the education of technicians is favored over that of profesionals. I have heard the argument before: "don't fund research (done by Alfa scientists in the Metropolis) or 'non-productive' careers like History or Philosophy. Is the ONLY purpose of an education to prepare specialized hands with no brains? I would be very sad if my country becomes a big maquiladora...

Finally, come on, people! Are your chaste, innocent ears hurt by a little profanity? Not mine. I'm more concerned about bad thoughts, like bigotry, than startledby a few bad words, whatever that means...

I deal with profanity every day, who doesn't? What's important is that we respect the rules of the Post, the people that so graciously host our discussions. Also the "mentada" was a direct personal aggression that is also prohibited in the rules. Maybe I should have realized that maya0 had probably been instructed by the PRD to use the "mentada" tactic and is not responsible for his acts; remember all the "mentadas" sent out to José Cárdenas from "El Tata" & others in the zócalo.

Amen on the technical vocations, we've got to start putting food on the table and then work on the more intellectual aspects of education, which are no less important, but are not for everyone. A bunch of political science majors just doesn't seem to cut it when it comes to the everyday running of a household, a neighborhood, a community, a city or a nation.

Gus, substitute "ideologue" for "leftist" and I'll agree with your statement.

Beco, what one should look for in fraud finding is, as I'm sure any statistician will agree, is a TREND, not random outliers. If it's there, it'll show up. (Beco? In valley Zapotec that means "dog", we called my weaving teacher in Teotitlán, "Tío Beco", and he was a real hound dog, God rest his soul.)

From "Reforma:"

"Encuentran casillas con errores en Jalisco

Tras ocho paquetes electorales abiertos, en la Comisión Distrital Número 8 de Jalisco se han encontrado errores en el conteo de votos.

La mayoría de éstos perjudican a la coalición Por el Bien de Todos, sobre todo en la casilla 677 donde se le quitaron 80 sufragios.

Los votos de la coalición se le contabilizaron el 2 de julio al Partido Nueva Alianza, el cual el día de la elección obtuvo 88 votos.

Sin embargo, de éstos, sólo cuatro eran de ellos, el resto eran de la coalición y del PRI..."

Does this sound like an "innocent mistake" to you?

Lets not kid ourselves, American elite universities offer more opportunities that Mexican elite universities... I myself got my higher eduacation through a Fulbright in a top-3 American university without being an American citizen, and when I taught at Monterrey Tech the student body was not nearly as diverse as it is an American elite university. The gringo system is not perfect, and it may not be all applicable to Mexico, but it sure is better than the decrepit UNAM,