The Recount: Reading Between the Lines

Sometimes in Mexico you need to read several versions of the same story to make an educated guess as to what exactly is going on. Such is the case with the recount taking place in more than 11,000 polling places across the country.

Ceci Connolly

Judging from the front-page coverage in the tabloid La Jornada, the errors in the tabulations of the July 2 presidential vote seem endless.

But coverage by El Universal is more subdued, referring to minor tally errors being discovered in the first day of the recount:

"Officials reviewing ballots at a district office in the northern city of Monterrey took more than an hour to count the first of 100 ballot boxes, said Raúl González, a PRD representative helping monitor the tally. 'It's going very slowly," said González. He predicted the count would take four days. At a district office in Guadalupe, Nuevo León, outside of Monterrey, party officials disagreed on what recount results showed.

"'There are normal errors both for them and for us,' Francisco Javier Bustillos, a National Action Party representative, said in an interview at the district office."

Campaign Conexión suggests reading the coverage and then, to borrow from Bill Clinton, triangulate. Somewhere in the middle of all that is the reality of the situation.

Here's what we know:

* Conservative Felipe Calderón, selling himself as the logical extension of President Vicente Fox, won the initial count in the July 2 election by about 240,000 votes.

* His leftist rival, former Mexico City mayor Andrés Manuel López Obrador, filed a 900-page document alleging massive fraud.

* Mexico's election tribunal ordered a recount of about 9 percent of the total votes cast -- or 4 million votes. The counting (is re-counting a word?) began Wednesday, under the watchful eyes of 180 magistrates, party representatives and reporters who were permitted into some polling places.

It can be awfully slow going, as James C. McKinley Jr. reports from Zapopan.

"At the Sixth Election District in Jalisco, the magnitude of even a partial re-tallying of votes was evident. After five hours of work, Magistrate José Manuel Mojica, a soft-spoken avuncular man with gray hair and mustache, had managed to get through only 3 of the 247 packets to be opened," McKinley reported in the New York Times. "The judge sat at a green covered table with two lawyers, one representing Mr. López Obrador and one Mr. Calderón, while the head of the election district and one of the local board members counted ballots by hand. A secretary took notes.

"Several problems arose, causing the judge to rub his forehead. In one polling place, 100 fewer ballots were accounted for than were delivered to the poll workers. 'I'm missing a lot of ballots,' the judge told the lawyers."

The tribunal has insisted that the recount be finished by Sunday evening. Although several newspapers are reporting results of the recount each day, the seven judges said no results will be official until they have completed trials weighing the fraud complaints for each district.

Yes, this means Mexico's never-ending presidential election may ruin yet another weekend.

Spinning the Recount

Though no great friend of the press, López Obrador has turned to the venerable Gray Lady to argue his case in the international court of public opinion. In an op-ed published Friday, he writes:

"The largest demonstrations in our history are daily proof that millions of Mexicans want a full accounting of last month's presidential election. ... Unfortunately, the electoral tribunal responsible for ratifying the election results thwarted the wishes of many Mexicans and refused to approve a nationwide recount. Instead, their narrow ruling last Saturday allows for ballot boxes in only about 9 percent of polling places to be opened and reviewed.

"This is simply insufficient for a national election where the margin was less than one percentage point - and where the tribunal itself acknowledged evidence of arithmetic mistakes and fraud, noting that there were errors at nearly 12,000 polling stations in 26 states."

The former mayor of Mexico City used his Times piece to invoke activist leaders such as Martin Luther King Jr. and Gandhi to reiterate his call for a full recount: "After all, our aim is to strengthen, not damage, Mexico's institutions, to force them to adopt greater transparency. Mexico's credibility in the world will only increase if we clarify the results of this election."

For a fuller -- albeit decidedly opinionated -- assessment of López Obrador, turn to the writings of George Grayson, a professor at the College of William and Mary. In Friday's Wall Street Journal, Grayson, author of "Mesias Mexicano," recounts López Obrador's childhood in the state of Tabasco, his five years running an institute focused on indigenous peoples and his ingenious "exodus" marches in the early 1990s:

"These Exodus marches catapulted the PRD visionary onto the national stage and impelled his election as national PRD president in 1996. Four years later, he captured the Mexico City mayorship and immediately began to refer to the capital as 'the City of Hope.' There he became the consummate populist caudillo.

"Mr. López Obrador is losing ground even in his own party as a growing number of PRD officials fear that his methods reinforce the image of the left as irresponsible radicals. Still, he truly believes that he is the savior of the downtrodden and he will continue his antics, which he insists are justified because of Mexico's widespread misery. Mr. Calderón's best bet to neutralize the messianic politician will be a policy agenda to spur robust growth and eat away at the poverty that afflicts nearly half of the country's 107.5 million people."

Everyone Has Something to Say

Political rhetoric in the post-election era has not been limited to the candidates. A new analysis by Dan Lund, president of the Mexico-based Lund Americas research company, finds that private corporations are among the most aggressive--and least regulated--political advertisers:

"While the (electoral commission), the PAN, and the Federal Government spots tend to promote their sponsors and indirectly attack the opposition, the private sector spots are 'completely non-party and profoundly political,' in the words of the Society en Movement web site. Eight minute ads on prime time explain how the July 2nd election was 'practically' immune from fraud by virtue of citizen participation, and that in fact the vote-by-vote, casilla-by-casilla count has already been completed.

"Speaking in the name and with the 'voices' of the casilla citizen participants and the people themselves, the ad shamelessly appropriates the inked thumb logo character of the IFE to explain the current situation."

The political parties too are purchasing more advertising time and putting out their best spinmeisters. From Calderón's National Action Party, or PAN, comes the insightful observation that the errors discovered so far are "ordinary and reasonable."

López Obrador's Democratic Revolutionary Party, or PRD, says that the discovery of even the smallest of problems is evidence of the need for the full recount he has demanded for more than a month.

"López Obrador needs to recover an average of 20 missing votes in each precinct to change the result - an outcome many election experts see as unlikely," according to the Houston Chronicle. "We have the obligation to defend democracy and everything that this implies," López Obrador wrote in an open letter distributed Wednesday.

Experts in Mexico appear divided over how the tribunal will react if significant irregularities are discovered in the partial recount.

"In its decision Saturday, the tribunal appeared to close the door on a full recount, with justices saying the law allowed the recounting of ballots only at polling stations that appeared to have made arithmetic errors or shown other irregularities," reports Sam Enriquez in the Los Angeles Times.

In a live chat with Campaign Cónexion Wednesday, legal scholar John Ackerman agreed that it appears the tribunal is leaning against a full recount. But he sees real danger in not doing so: "This is highly problematic because if serious irregularities are discovered in the partial recount there will be increased social demands for a full recount. But, in this case, pretty much the only option the justices have left for themselves is to "annul" or simply not declare the election valid and call for new elections."

Not surprisingly, the PRD is continuing to press for a full recount: "López Obrador himself rejected the whole idea of the partial recount, and repeated his vow that he will never allow the 'imposition' of a fraudulently elected president. Speaking to supporters Wednesday night in Mexico City's Zócalo, the PRD candidate also blasted most of the major media for waging a 'disinformation campaign' and 'accepting the role of pimps for the political right.'"

Mexico Election
Supporters of Andres Manuel López Obrador protest outside Mexico's Treasury Secretary building in Mexico City earlier today. The man's sign reads, "Vote for Vote and Poll for Poll". (Reuters)

With each day, AMLO and his followers become more creative, or sinister, depending on your point of view. On Wednesday, demonstrators blocked entrances to three of the five largest banks here.

"The Association of Mexican Banks, in an e-mailed statement, urged authorities to keep the demonstrations within the limits of the law and prevent protests from affecting the rights of others," according to a wire service roundup in the Miami Herald's Mexico City edition. "Roy Caple, a spokesman for HSBC in Mexico City, said in a telephone interview the bank was operating normally.

"On Tuesday López Obrador supporters took over tollbooths on four federal highways, allowing drivers to pass through free of charge. Since July 30 protesters have blocked 12 kilometers of Mexico City's main avenue, filling the eight-lane boulevard with tents. Hotels and businesses in the area have lost about 1.5 billion pesos (US$138 million) because of the protests, the local chamber of commerce said Wednesday."

Much of the chattering class -- as well as many workers -- are fed up with the civil disobedience. But columnist Jesus Ortega Martinez argues that even though this is the largest recount ordered by the tribunal in its history, it is still insufficient to quell uncertainties surrounding the election.

Getting to Know the Neighbors

Senior Calderón adviser Arturo Sarakhan spoke at the National Press Club in Washington earlier this week and attempted to debunk what he described as many "myths" about his man, Mexico's electoral system and the legality of a total recount. Sarakhan reminded the audience that Calderón, who embraces the nickname "disobedient son," was not Fox's choice. But he won the PAN nomination. Second, Sarakhan noted, Calderón trailed López Obrador in most polls for most of the campaign, yet appears to have won.

"It seems easy to forget that, since 1994, Mexico, Mexican society, Mexican political parties of all persuasions, including Mr. López Obrador's PRD, put into motion what is probably one of the most efficient, successful, widely recognized electoral systems and laws and regulations anywhere in the world today."

-- Ceci Connolly

By washingtonpost.com Editors |  August 11, 2006; 1:42 PM ET  | Category:  Campaign Conexión
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Ceci-- It is Sarukhan, not Sarakhan.

George Grayson has been following the rise of Lopez Obrador for some time and precicted well before the election that the messiah would not accept defeat at the polls. Everything that has happened is typical AMLO behavior.

As for the possibility of annulment-- It would be good if there were a way to do the election over very quickly. That is probably not possible. Too bad, because if we held another election now, Lopez Obrador would suffer a much bigger defeat. Most Mexicans won't need TV spots to warn them that he is a danger to the country-- they have already seen it in his recent actions and rhetoric. I cannot imagine that he would get more than 20 percent of the vote now. Also, most of the people who voted for Madrazo would see how stupid that was and instead vote for Calderon.

Posted by: Goyo | August 11, 2006 02:32 PM

Assumptions...assumptions....

Just as always Goyo, little facts to back your rantings....

Posted by: fco. | August 11, 2006 02:59 PM

Since the general discussion appears to have drifted far away from the main issue, I've decided to bring the main subject back to everyone's attention.
Below, I have posted a sample of numerous inconsistencies that have appeared after two days of recount of 11,800 or so "casillas". My sources are the new "impugnaciones" of the Coalition documented by the judges and magistrates in charge of the recount (I'm terribly sorry for not translating it for non-Spanish speakers):

Campeche:
Distrito 1
Casilla 79 básica:
Calderón -34
AMLO +34
dif. 68
estaba abierta; faltan 343 boletas
(faltan folios 74274 a 74601)

Casilla 83 contigua 3:
Calderón -1
AMLO +1
Faltan 215 boletas (faltan folios
102000 a 102215)

Casilla 67 contigua 1
Faltan 179 boletas

Casilla 94 contigua 1
Faltan 17 boletas

Casilla 83 contigua 2
Faltan 4 boletas

Casilla 70 contigua 1
Falta 1 boleta

Casilla 99 contigua 1
Falta 1 boleta

Distrito 2
En cinco casillas hay excesos de votos.
Casilla 211 contigua 1
AMLO +37

Total del estado hasta ahora:
más de 1000 boletas desaparecidas

San Luis Potosí
Los magistrados no permitieron la apertura de los sobres con votos nulos

Distrito 5
Una casilla no especificada:
Calderón - 40

Morelos
Distrito no especificado
13 casillas estaban abiertas

Michoacán
Distrito 3
Algunos paquetes estaban abiertos

Distrito 5
Algunos paquetes estaban abiertos

Distrito 6
483 básica:
Calderón - 50

Jalisco
Distrito 3
7 básica:
Madrazo -235
Calderón - 233
AMLO - 65
Campa -9
Mercado - 8
Nulos -28

Distrito 4
Casilla 2920 contigua 1
Sobran 111 boletas
Casilla especial mercado del mar
Sobran 13 boletas
Calderón -6

Distrito 5
El magistrado colegiado en materia
civil, Octavio Alcocer y el juez de
distrito en materia civil Francisco
Olmos Avilés han cerrado las puertas
del distrito a todos los asesores de
la coalición, medios de comunicación y
ciudadanos observadores.

Distrito 7
182 paquetes electorales estaban
abiertos
Casilla no especificada:
AMLO +67
Calderón +6

Distrito 8
Casilla 677 básica
AMLO +80
PANAL -80
Casilla 267
AMLO -100

Distrito 10
Algunos paquetes estaban abiertos

Yucatán
Distrito 3
Casilla 260 básica
Calderón -201
Casilla 270 básica
Calderón - 308

Veracruz
Distrito 1
Casilla 3253 básica
Calderón -162

Distrito 7
Casilla 21 contigua 1
26 votos de más, no hay lista
nominal

Distrito de Tuxpan
7 casillas presentan ruptura de sellos
Casilla no especificada
AMLO +56
Madrazo -56

Tamaulipas
Distrito 5
Casilla 365 básica
Calderón -158

Distrito 6
Casilla 266 contigua 1
Calderón - 157

Estado de México
Distrito 14
Casilla 266 básica
Extravío de una boleta
Casilla 266 contigua 1
Sobra una boleta
Casilla 267 básica
Sobran 3 boletas
Casilla 268 básica
Sobra una boleta
Casilla 280 contigua 2
Falta una boleta
Casilla 256 contigua 1
Falta una boleta
Casilla 260 básica
Faltan 2 boletas
Casilla 281 contigua 2
Sobra una boleta
Casilla 283 contigua 2
Faltan 3 boletas

Distrito 18
Casilla 2037 básica
Calderón - 108

Sonora
Distrito de Hermosillo (no especifica
número)
Casilla 341 extraordinaria contigua 3
Calderón - 220

Distrito 3
Casilla 1284 básica
Calderón - 208

Distrito 2
Casilla 164 contigua 2
Calderón -10
Casilla 240 básica
Calderón - 10
Casilla 335 básica
Calderón - 20

Distrito Federal
Distrito 8
Casilla no especificada
El paquete estaba abierto, no
había lista nominal, faltaban 4
boletas

Distrito 20
Casilla 2022 básica
21 boletas extraviadas
Casilla 2300 básica
9 boletas sobraban

Distrito 16
Casilla 3225 básica
Sobres estaban abiertos
Casilla 3225 contigua 1
Sobres estaban abiertos
Casilla 3353 contigua 1
Sobres estaban abiertos
Casilla 3360 contigua 2
Sobres estaban abiertos

Distrito 5
Casilla 3756 básica
Sellos de paquetes estaban abiertos
Casilla 3765 contigua 1
Sellos de paquetes estaban abiertos

Chihuahua
Distrito 8
Algunos paquetes estaban abiertos
Casilla 542 básica
Desapareció el sobre con las
boletas de la elección presidencial

Casilla 439 básica
Sobres estaban abiertos, se
encontraron 80 boletas de más

Distrito 9
Algunos paquetes estaban abiertos

Distrito 6
Sobres estaban abiertos, boletas
desparramadas por el suelo al abrir la
bodega

Baja California
Distrito 4
Más de 50 paquetes estaban abiertos

Distrito 2
Bodega sin sellos, muchos paquetes
estaban abiertos. Presunción de
embarazo de urnas.
Casilla 440 contigua 1
Extravío de 59 votos

Distrito 7
Muchos paquetes estaban abiertos

Distrito 8
Muchos paquetes estaban abiertos

Distrito 5
Bodega sin sellos, muchos estaban
paquetes abiertos
Para que se den una idea, adjunto video
de la apertura de la bodega del
distrito 5:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hv3uG6wepsw

Distrito 3
Muchos paquetes estaban abiertos

Hasta ahora en el Estado:
Calderón - 224
AMLO + 365
Diferencia 589

Aguascalientes
Distrito 1
Más de 170 paquetes carecen de sellos
y firmas de los funcionarios de
casillas

Magistrados bloquean acceso a asesores de la coalición

Nuevo León
Distritos 1, 7, 8 y 9
Magistrados impiden el acceso de
asesores de la coalición

Distrito 9
Casilla 2098 contigua 1
estaba abierta
Casilla 494 contigua 1
Tiene 17 votos de más

Distrito 2
12 casillas carecen de listas nominales
1 casilla se encontraba abierta
Casilla 99 básica
Actas no firmadas y sobres estaban
abiertos

Distrito 5
Inconsistencias en más de 80
casillas, la mayoría de los paquetes
estaban abiertos

Distrito 12
Casilla 174 básica
AMLO +56

Guanajuato
Presunción de votos "clonados"
Casilla 1502 básica
317 votos objetados
Casilla 1461 contigua 1
370 votos objetados
Casilla 1501 contigua 2
371 votos objetados
Casilla 1501 contigua 1
435 votos objetados
Casilla 1502 contigua 1
316 votos objetados
Casilla 1276 contigua 1
77 votos objetados
Casilla 1268 básica
56 votos objetados
Casilla 1269 contigua 1
73 votos objetados
Casilla 1269 contigua 2
69 votos objetados
Casilla 1269 contigua 3
96 votos objetados
Casilla 1282 contigua 2
80 votos objetados
Casilla 1291 básica
46 votos objetados

Distrito 8
Denuncia penal contra consejeros
distritales por no volver a sellar
debidamente los paquetes tras el
proceso del 5 de julio.

Colima
Distrito 2
Casi todos los paquetes estaban
abiertos

Chiapas
Distrito 8
29 casillas impugnadas por
inconsistencias

Coahuila
Distrito no especificado
Casilla 81 básica
Todas las boletas del PAN fueron
impugnadas por presunta clonación

Posted by: fco. | August 11, 2006 03:03 PM

The following is a link to the video of the opening of the Baja California district 5 ballot storage room.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hv3uG6wepsw

Take special notice in the loose seals at the door, the unusual number of packages opened, the opened ballot envelopes, and the amount of ballots spread all over the floor.
Notice how ballot packages are not stacked one on top of the other. The same happened in district 23 of Coyoacán which I personally oversaw. I suppose it is standard procedure. Also, notice the large amounts of duct tape used to seal the packages (those which are closed, at least). Therefore, the assumption that packages open up because the lid cannot support the weight of the ballots is ridiculous.


Posted by: fco. | August 11, 2006 03:03 PM

The following is a link to the video of the opening of the Baja California district 5 ballot storage room.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hv3uG6wepsw

Take special notice in the loose seals at the door, the unusual number of packages opened, the opened ballot envelopes, and the amount of ballots spread all over the floor.
Notice how ballot packages are not stacked one on top of the other. The same happened in district 23 of Coyoacán which I personally oversaw. I suppose it is standard procedure. Also, notice the large amounts of duct tape used to seal the packages (those which are closed, at least). Therefore, the assumption that packages open up because the lid cannot support the weight of the ballots is ridiculous.


Posted by: fco. | August 11, 2006 03:04 PM


Nothing to Hide ??? Then why not a full recount?? If I were Calderon and believed with conviction I had won, I would also want a recount to give his administration legitemacy..

Posted by: Manesso | August 11, 2006 03:05 PM

"Pimps of the political right." Well said AMLO. That the media in Mexico, and really now, most of the USA, does the dirty deed for right wing reactionarys is no suprise. They dont want true democracy in Mexico, they rather kill it with their confusion and double speak. The need to protect democracy is so important that a call to arms to defend it, would be heeded by thousands. Violence is justified for the sake of liberty and equality, which are things that are achieved with true democracy. And what is being offered in Mexico is not true democracy but something cooked up by the volks at langley vir. The evidence has shown, in only one and a half days of counting, that thier was manipulation caused not by human error, but by manipulating humans. This will not stand. Those are direct threats to true democracy. If the PANistas and thier cohorts, continue with their plan to impose an illegal president, a dictator of the right, on Mexico, their will be a revolt. People will take up arms to defend democracy in Mexico.

Almost 100 years ago, Madero, Zapata, Villa; these winds of change, shaked and stired the whole of Mexico, and hence the world, in a strugle for true Mexican democracy.
AMLO represents the spirits of those true Mexicans, who gave their lives to bring justice to the poor and powerless.
Or we get a solution in Mexico
Or we get a revolution in Mexico.

Posted by: maya0 | August 11, 2006 04:23 PM

I wish we had an AMLO. Then GWB, the loser of our presidential election, could not have started the wars that have killed so many people and the world would be better off.

Thank you AMLO.

Posted by: Sam Diamond | August 11, 2006 04:44 PM

Ceci,

Jesus Ortega Martinez is not a columnist. These are his credentials:

Miembro fundador del Partido de la Revolución Democrática (PRD), integrante de su Consejo Nacional, responsable de Asuntos Electorales del Comité Ejecutivo Nacional y representante del partido ante el Consejo General del Instituto Federal Electoral. Se desempeñó como coordinador de giras de la campaña presidencial de Cuauhtémoc Cárdenas en 1994. Fue diputado federal en las LI y LIV Legislaturas, y coordinador de su grupo parlamentario en la LVI. Actualmente es coordinador de la fracción perredista en el Senado de la República.

I think that he might not have an unbiased and nonpartison opinion on the subject.

Posted by: TG | August 11, 2006 04:54 PM

The mexican left has no logic and no sense of proportion!

For this election, almost one million citizens were randomly selected to act as officials at the 130 477 electoral boots. The selection process involved two variables: the month of birth (january) and the first letter of their surname (w).

On election day, together they supervised the process and received and counted almost 42 million votes in the presence of representatives form all political parties. Then, they took the balloting boxes to the electoral district office, were the vote count was captured and transmited, under the eye of the same representatives, to a central database and immediatly published on Internet. The information displayed included the totals obtained by each candidate, and the results for each electoral boot processed.

One could argue that citizens make mistakes, but nobody in his right mind can argue that they were as good as the left claim, to organize an put in place a plot to steal the election from Lopez Obrador, operating simultaneously on almost 140 thousand different locations, just because they were born on january and their surnames start with a "w". Not even Spielberg could do it!

In this election, we casted at least three votes: one for president; one for congressman; and, finally, one to elect our senator, so almost 125 million votes were balloted and counted. The leftist coalition known as PBT won the largest number of seats in the House and the Senate in its history but, the conspiracy theory argues, only the presidency that Lopez Obrador claimed to win by at least half a million votes, was stolen.

How? I cannot figure out how, and there is no one in that party wise enough to provide a sound answer.

The proof? Only a small number of mistakes that does not affect the results significantly.

Then, what is left for them to say? That the mexican bad guys came into action, with the support from foreign governments, even the Vatican, and some alien expedition, and changed the numbers from the copies of documents in the hands of all parties involved, and so on, so on ...

Please guys, give us a break!

Posted by: spoiler | August 11, 2006 05:02 PM

I tend to agree with the article in that both the PRD and PAN are giving biased accounts of the recount. Since media coverage was not allowed by some judges, we only have partial accounts of what is going on. Both parties are questioning all votes, in some cases to the point of the ridiculous. Votes crossed with pen and not the IFE supplied crayons and votes smudged by crayon upon folding are set aside for ruling by the higher court. This has lead the TEPJF to set guidelines as to what are the only three reasons to question a ballot. I would suggest we waita couple of days to see what the next chapter of this telenovela is.

Posted by: TG | August 11, 2006 05:14 PM

Spoiler:

Thanks for your lesson in voting organization, but it begs for some comments. Let's see:

"For this election, almost one million citizens were randomly selected to act as officials at the 130 477 electoral boots (sic)..."

1) Although about one million citizens were selected to act as polling station officers, not the full million was used, because alternates were not asked to stay if not needed; that leaves about half a million actually participating. Moreover, there were instances in which not even the alternate officers showed up on time, and were substituted by citizens in the line for voting. That breaks the random selection. In addition, there is some evidence here and there that selected officers were not in the list of voters in the polling station in which they were selected. If confirmed, this is cause for annulment.

"On election day, together they supervised the process and received and counted almost 42 million votes in the presence of representatives form all political parties..."

At this time it's a well known fact, even reported by IFE, that THERE WERE NOT representatives of all parties or associations in EVERY polling station.

"Then, they took the balloting boxes to the electoral district office, were the vote count was captured and transmited, under the eye of the same representatives, to a central database and immediatly published on Internet. The information displayed included the totals obtained by each candidate, and the results for each electoral boot processed."

You are talking about the infamous PREP. Too much negative to say about it; it has already been discussed; the bottom line: a dismal performance of this system in the hands of IFE.

"One could argue that citizens make mistakes, but nobody in his right mind can argue that they were as good as the left claim, to organize an put in place a plot to steal the election from Lopez Obrador, operating simultaneously on almost 140 thousand different locations, just because they were born on january and their surnames start with a "w". Not even Spielberg could do it!"

NOBODY, ABSOLUTELY NOBODY has claimed that fraud happened in ALL polling stations. This lie is repeated every too often by PAN followers; I wonder if it is taken verbatim from some playbook (or catechism)...

"In this election, we casted at least three votes: one for president; one for congressman; and, finally, one to elect our senator, so almost 125 million votes were balloted and counted. The leftist coalition known as PBT won the largest number of seats in the House and the Senate in its history but, the conspiracy theory argues, only the presidency that Lopez Obrador claimed to win by at least half a million votes, was stolen.

How? I cannot figure out how, and there is no one in that party wise enough to provide a sound answer."

All these votes are cast INDEPENDENTLY. What is the difficulty in altering the results only for the the most important post in play? I have heard this over and over and I don't see why it cannot be done.

"The proof? Only a small number of mistakes that does not affect the results significantly."

Let's wait and see. The TEPJF has to rule if the findings are inconsequencial... or critical. Good attempt by Ceci, by the way, to make sense of conflicting, unofficial information...

"Then, what is left for them to say? That the mexican bad guys came into action, with the support from foreign governments, even the Vatican, and some alien expedition, and changed the numbers from the copies of documents in the hands of all parties involved, and so on, so on ...

No, not so on and so on. The claim is that "bad guys" (and an ocassional bad, very bad girl) participated at different levels in the fraud. The election challenge not only includes the numbers themselves, but the violations of electoral law that might have influenced the result (illegal advertisement; illegal use of the voters database, coercion of voters, breaks of campaign cost limits...)

Statements without a factual base do not constitute more than empty, fairly useless rethoric...

Posted by: pasilla | August 11, 2006 06:15 PM

pasilla

I only agree with your last sentence and cannot find any factual base in your comments to support PRD's allegations.

Rethoric?

How about the following fragments from your text?

"...there is some evidence here and there that selected officers were not in the list of voters in the polling station in which they were selected. If confirmed, this is cause for annulment."

This probably sounds as rocket science to you but I don´t think any judge would take it as proof of anything.

"You are talking about the infamous PREP. Too much negative to say about it; it has already been discussed; the bottom line: a dismal performance of this system in the hands of IFE."

Is that so? So PREP is disqualified because you don´t like it and it has already been discussed? Wow, keep on trying.

"This lie is repeated every too often by PAN followers; I wonder if it is taken verbatim from some playbook (or catechism)..."

But this is not rethoric, or is it?

"What is the difficulty in altering the results only for the the most important post in play? I have heard this over and over and I don't see why it cannot be done."

Probably in your wildest dreams and with a lot of imagination, but I am just a simple guy.

"The claim is that "bad guys" (and an ocassional bad, very bad girl) participated at different levels in the fraud. The election challenge not only includes the numbers themselves, but the violations of electoral law that might have influenced the result (illegal advertisement; illegal use of the voters database, coercion of voters, breaks of campaign cost limits...)"

Are you talking about Claudia Scheinbaum and PRD practices in Mexico City?

Please don´t waste your time, I am not trying to convince you of anything, and have had enough of this rethoric already.

Posted by: spolier | August 11, 2006 07:05 PM

Seems to me like you PRD guys feed on fantasies.

In the whole recount in Nuevo Leon AMLO recovered 4 votes and got some 57 votes to review for the TRIFE, but as usual they claim they are not valid.

http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/368229.html

These are the foundings in some 50 Casillas or so.

Where is the fraud?

Get real. Those little numbers do not build a case.

Posted by: emptyboxes | August 11, 2006 07:38 PM

This story doesn't sit well with me:

"Condonan impuestos a hoteles y restaurantes por plantón"
http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/368244.html

If you don't collect tax revenues from one sector you have to make up for them from another or ELIMINATE some program or service paid for by the government. So the GDF will pay entrepreneurs and take away benefits from some other sector; I wonder who's going to pay. Why don't they just take this money from the exorbitant funds that political parties receive in taxpayer contributions, in this case from the PRD?

Posted by: K. Vronna | August 11, 2006 07:51 PM

fco:

Your numbers are totally poor and do not add to something really serious. But suppose they do. These are the Casillas where the PAN won. What about in those Casillas where AMLO won? Fraud will be more possible there as the educational level in those regions is significatively lower than in Guadalajara, Monterrey and those urban areas where Felipe Calderon got most of his votes.

What I have heard is that the reason why PRD did not impugnated the whole 130 thousand casillas is precisely because they committed a huge fraud there in order to win. Of course, they cry and talk about a complete vote by vote recount but I doubt they really wanted and most people, now that we are seeing what happened in those casillas of the PAN in urban areas where it is more difficult to commit any fraud, we can only imagine what the PRD did in those poor states of Guerrero, Oaxaca and in Tabasco, where the prd did not impugnated anything.
Now that is where you will find the massive fraud.

Posted by: emptyboxes | August 11, 2006 07:54 PM

I love your "logic," emptyboxes. Do you understand what "voto x voto, casilla x casilla" means? PRD is not afraid of a TOTAL re-count. Actually, that was, still is the demand. All votes, all voting stations: DF, Tabasco, Guerrero, Oaxaca, what have you; ALL VOTES, ALL POLLIMG STATIONS. That was the exit of the electoral labyrinth. So simple...

simple spoiler/spolier... Too bad that you are tired; otherwise I would invite you to read more than one month worth of comments to postings (and perhaps COFIPE); I'm sorry that you apparently came late to the party...

Posted by: pasilla | August 11, 2006 08:32 PM

Pasilla: There was fraud, but it was on the other side, and being as how Camacho Solis and the other thugs in the PRD, including AMLO are very experienced in fraud, they thought that PAN did it. Big mistake! PAN has never committed fraud, they have fought against it all their lives, and you cannot say the same about AMLO and Camacho Solis.

That is where the fraud is, I really hope they open the casillas over there in the south so we can see the can kind of Ballot Stuffing these people are capable of.

The PRD and AMLO are the ones who committed the fraud. That is why Horacio Duarte had those Ballots that he say "Someone brought them to our door" that is nonsense and nobody believes it.

Stop the nonsense Pasilla, fco, maya0, stop the fanatism, in democracy you win or you lose, this time AMLO lost and there is nothing he can do to reverse the situation.

Posted by: emptyboxes | August 11, 2006 09:08 PM

These 11 Polling Stations were chose by PRD, they were part of the 50 thousand Polling Stations they impugnated.
No evidences of fraud were found. Many arithmetical inconsistencies, a vote here two two votes overthere. Yes there was a case with some 80 votes that were mistakenly given to Nueva Alianza, but you guys need to see the votes PAN recovered, 20 here, 12 overthere.

First Cocaine Cibernetic Fraud. Then Cocaine conspiracy theories. Now cocaine Recount results.

When are you guys going to stop the nonsense? You got to be a little serious.

Pasilla: Perhaps we could seriously discuss here about why Lopez Obrador went from having 41 percent in the polls in January to having 34 percent and how Felipe Calderon went from having 25 percent in November last year to winning the elections.

Posted by: emptyboxes | August 11, 2006 09:33 PM

So now AMLO is going to Chiapas allegedly to help the PRD Coalition Candidate. Big mistake. He will be making the same mistake Hugo Chavez did in Mexico and Peru, that by trying to intervene in favor of a candidate he made them lose.
The mayority of the people accross the country who voted for AMLO have already regretted it. No reasonable person likes to see tents and people manipulation like AMLO has done. He has exposed himself as a lier in the Salamanca video. His blockade of Reforma has generated a massive negative reaction.

The results of this visit to Chiapas will mean more votes for the PRI candidate.

PAN is right to have its candidate decline in favor of the PRI Candidate. The PAN voters will giving the votes needed to become a governor.

Again, the PRD Candidate, under pressure from AMLO, will not accept the results, and the PRD will be committing another huge mistake.

They don't understand that the great mayority of people who go to vote, they do so because they want a country of laws and institutions and the last thing they want is conflicts. And the PRD already is synonim of Conflicts and street protests.

Too bad. The more PRD continues to cast their lots with AMLO, the more it will pay for the consecuences.

The People will pay them back ignoring them in future elections.

Posted by: emptyboxes | August 11, 2006 09:54 PM

Ceci: It's amazing the thought's and procedures of Amlo lovers, their führer should be proud of them...These radicals has nothing to do? their desperation for losing what they consider been "cinched" is such, than they are ready for "action"...¿¿?? their smoke...stinks!
Thinking people in the States, should be laughing of poor mexicans, led by this cookie...

Posted by: Enrique Moreno R. | August 11, 2006 09:58 PM

Ceci Connolly, thanks for greatly improving both the breadth and depth of coverage of this issue for the U.S. press, which in my view has been mostly missing until recently.

Posted by: El Cid | August 11, 2006 10:09 PM

It is incredible the lenghts to which this people is willing to go. Now that they did not find anything serious other than a few errors, the PRD and AMLO are ready to launch the mediatic fight of their life. They are already talking about some 40 thousand votes and a bunch of other lies about the recount.

What a patetical bunch of losers.

Posted by: emptyboxes | August 11, 2006 10:12 PM

I have been following the Mexican election, but I must admit that I'm a little confused by the some of the comments on this line.

It was my understanding that the 11,000 casillas that are currently being recounted are casillas in which one of two things were detected. Either there were substantially more votes cast than there were voters or there were substantially fewer votes than voters. Wouldn't either of those conditions represent evidence of fraud regardless of whether the actas reflected the number of votes present? Isn't the presence substantial (as determined by the TRIFE) numbers of extra or missing votes in 10% of the casillas fairly convincing evidence of fraud?

While a recount is a nice feature, it wouldn't necessarily detect most kinds of fraud, including ballot box stuffing or the removal of ballots.

Posted by: On the Fence | August 11, 2006 11:59 PM

fco regarding the previous article's comments: the fraud comments where, in truth, not yours, they were in the YouTube comments section. Maybe you should have qualified the link with a note to clarify your position. I realize this is more my problem than yours, still, you're presenting evidence used by people crying "fraud". If you do not share the opinion maybe you should have said so to begin with. I don't know, I'm ambivalent on wether or not to apologize for putting words in your mouth. I'll err on the side of caution and do so: I apologize.

For the third point fco, I'm free to add information I deem relevant.

Now, to the matter at hand, while your example has some valid points, you start from a shaky supposition: that the missing ballots were cast ballots. Lets look at one example:

Campeche:
Distrito 1
Casilla 79 básica:
Calderón -34
AMLO +34
dif. 68
estaba abierta; faltan 343 boletas
(faltan folios 74274 a 74601)

If those were indeed cast ballots then the text would say something along the lines of "less votes were found than electors voted". Most likely scenario: the unused ballots were left out, possibly left in the trash. Anomaly? Of course. Cause for annulment? I'm not sure but I wouldn't think so, as the will of the electors at that station was preserved, even if it took a challenge by the Coalicion.

This is precisely why I say than fraud is unfathomable to me, from the moment the voter shows his ID to the time an official winner is named, everything is public and reviewable. Lets look at another example quoted several times here: "falsified acts". First a small review of the process: voting closes, votes are counted, the act is filled, COPIES ARE GIVEN TO EVERYONE OF THE REPRESENTATIVES, packages are completed and sealed and finally the representatives accompany the casilla president to the IFE office, to deliver the package. Even if the representative did not show up, the general representative (1 per 10 casillas) can still pick up the copy. This is done prior to sealing the package and before the package ever leaves the station. If anywhere down the line an act is falsified, vote counts modified by algorithm, black magic or what not, then everyone has a copy they can show and say "Hey, look! The act was falsified" or "Hey, votes published do not match the numbers in the act we were given!" Even more, since everyone gets a copy, the one entity (political party or IFE) that falsified the act can be readily identified. Can this annul the station? Possibly or even probably. Chances of no one noticing the falsification? I think it's easier to win the lottery. The fact the PRD denounces act falsification yet never contrasts their copy against the falsified one speaks volumes.

Finally, regarding the PREP, come on pasilla, you know perfectly well that the PREP was just a tool, much like a poll, not an official result. Even so, lets look at the hard data (you can find full reports at the IFE site) regarding, first the "rapid count" results which the PRD complained so much about it not being published:

Robust method ranges
PAN 35.25 to 37.40%
PRD 34.24 to 36.38%

Classical method ranges:
PAN 35.68 to 36.53%
PRD 34.97 to 35.70%

Bayesian method ranges:
PAN 35.77 to 36.40%
PRD 35.07 to 35.63%

Results after the district count:
PAN 35.89%
PRD 35.31%

If anything, the "conteo rapido calculations" were better at predicting the PRD results thqn the PAN results but still quite accurate. To complaint about the "conteo rapido" results not being broadcasted would imply that it would have been better to declare a winner which would have been Calderon. What would the PRD reaction have been then?

Now the PREP with the inconsistent acts left out:
PAN 36.38%
PRD 35.34%

Half a percentage point away from the real PAN result and less the Half of one percent for the PRD. You may point out the 3 million votes left out initially, but this was per the rules which the PRD agreed to, something they conveniently neglect to mention every time they talk about the PREP.

Lets now include the acts left out:
PAN 35.91
PRD 35.29

A GRAND total of .04 percentage points away from the district count. The PREP really sucked, apparently. Could things have been clearer as to the limitations of this tool? Yes. Can the tool be dismissed? No.

Posted by: Ariel R. Orellana | August 12, 2006 12:17 AM

On the fence:

The PRD asked, and the tribunal agreed to open these almos 12,000 packages because there are doubts about them and that is why we're examining them again, so far, and depending on who you choose to believe, the recount shows differences of about a vote per casilla picked up net by AMLO. There are differences of about 5 or 6 votes total, per package. This hardly constitutes fraud, but lets wait for the judges' ruling.

Posted by: Ariel R. Orellana | August 12, 2006 12:22 AM

More info coming out, it seems that the PRD is using any excuse it can to leave out Calderon votes. These votes are currently being excluded but have to be reviewed individually by the tribunal. What type of votes are being excluded?

- Votes marked with pen instead of with the provided crayon.
- Votes that have small smudges made by crayon residue.

For Nuevo Leon this means that, of the 400 votes "lost" by Calderon, these two types of votes account for about 300 (these numbers are from the 10th). The net difference picked up by AMLO of 399 votes includes the 351 votes set aside. When you set exclude those votes then the net pickup if 48 votes. The number of casillas recounted at that moment was 390. About an 8th of a vote per casilla. Even if all those votes set aside are included its only 1 vote per casilla.

For Jalisco, with 1769 casillas counted, the pickup by AMLO was of 676 votes net, about .4 votes per casilla. The votes excluded for later review? 3357.

I'm betting that many of those votes will flow back to Calderon, smudges from crayon residue is not sufficient to annul a vote. Same goes for the pen, as the law only asks for a mark to be made inside one party's box, not that it has to be made with the IFE crayon.

Posted by: Ariel R. Orellana | August 12, 2006 12:40 AM

Ariel R. Orellana,

I appreciate your response, but you didn't really address my question.

I looked at the PRD website -- I don't think it makes its points well (although that may just be my mediocre Spanish). From what I could understand, each casilla received a certain number of ballots which were supposed to be closely accounted for. The discrepancies reported to the TRIFE were casillas in which the combination of left over ballots plus votes was significantly more or less than the allotted number of ballots suggesting that ballots were illegally added or removed.

The fact that the the actas (tally sheets as I understand it) reflect the ballots inside the packets would appear to me irrelevant. If someone had removed or added ballots, they would have almost certainly done so before the count -- to do so after the count would be ineffectual. And if ballots were added or removed prior to the count, then the recount won't detect that.

The problem, as I see it, is that there are over 10,000 casillas with significant numbers of extra or missing ballots. I don't know whether that invalidates the election or not. But it certainly makes the IFE look bad.


Posted by: On the Fence | August 12, 2006 12:56 AM

Mr. Orellana,

I appreciate your efforts to clarify what happened with the two Campeche casillas I posted at the start of my recount review. If I were a PAN representative, I would bring you in as a lawyer. I congratulate you.
On the other hand, if I were a Coalition lawyer I would still try my best to prove that those missing votes were AMLO votes. In the end, the TEPJF would be the only institution responsible for taking a decision about those missing votes. I still sustain that jurisprudence suggests, strongly, that such "casilla" should be annulled. On the other hand, the TEPJF could have a less strict approach to the matter and consider the absent votes as irrelevant. Recent events indicate that acting pragmatically is not in the order of the day for the tribunal.

However, though I applaud your efforts to clean a couple of small stains in the recount process, I invite you to zoom back and see the whole picture. It is too much! The whole thing is too messy! Numbers like the ones I posted in a previous intervention on this blog only keep raising more and more suspicion on a high number of voters of the losing Coalition, and some members of the winning party (who, if I might incur in a certain degree of falacy, according to aristotelic logic, have no strong, tangible proof to convince their adversaries that the whole electoral process was clean).

The link to the video I posted was loaded by one of the guys from the Mandoki crew, a declared AMLO supporter. Nevertheless, what it shows is true. Even El Universal showed pictures of the mess in the Distrito 5 de Baja California.
I cannot insist enough that you should check this video yourselves:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hv3uG6wepsw

emptyboxes:
Now you're saying that Duarte and the PRD guys are the real architects of fraud. Well, go ahead, prove it.
However, if you don't have hard evidence that generates strong suspicion at hand your case will not hold water.

As for your claim that the PRD manifests publicly having gained 40,000 votes in the recount... it is just another stark lie.
The PRD has declared that AMLO, at midday, Friday the 11th, had recovered aproximately 5,000.
Anticipating your rantings I'll claim that I agree, vote swapping has been considerably lower than we expected. Nevertheless, the uncovering of large amounts of irregularities will, most probably, prompt the Tribunal to annul a large number of "casillas" (not counting the large number of opened "casillas" that were found inside the storage rooms of the electoral district premises, that were not taken into consideration into this selective 9% recount).

As for your prejudiced argument about northern "funcionarios" being better and cleanier at counting votes than southern "funcionarios", I think Pasilla has given you an appropiate answer.

spoiler:
Glad to see a new face in the blog.
The proof you asked for to support our arguments has been posted extensively and debated tirelessly on previous entries by Pasilla, Marco Beteta, El Cid, and yours truly, among others. I would feel particularly obliged if you could give these entries a quick glimpse and, afterwards, rejoin the debate.

TG
You're the only right-winger talking sense. I support your initiative to wait until Sunday for the TEPJF resolution before precipitating into unsustainable conclusions.

Posted by: fco. | August 12, 2006 04:28 AM

These imbecile PRD followers are more and more looking like islamist fanatics. They carry a stupid caricature of their leader, sometimes gigantic, wherever they go. They also carry signs of hate, and the same as islamist fanatical people, they will hear nobody, no institution, nothing has more credibility than their messianical leader.

And here they come and post all kinds of false and cocaine allegations.

Get real people, stop the fanatism, the recount only shows you there was no fraud. They are trying desperate trying to base their allegations on case like this one:

Casilla 67 básica:
Calderón -3
AMLO +1
dif. 5


What is this? What kind of fanatical nonsense people are this? Who is this thug you respect more than any institution in your country?

Get real fanatical people. Don't be misguided by an insane leader who should be in a mental hospital. Don't you see what he is doing with Reforma? All those people losing their jobs because of his stupid caprice? What kind of stupid nonsense are you following? Come on!

Posted by: emptyboxes | August 12, 2006 06:58 AM

Now that the recount is coming to an end and the TRIFE did not find anything relevant, AMLO wants to annul the whole election. Such is the antidemocratic spirit of this bastard that he will not accept Felipe Calderon to govern. He already calls his a spurious president, Mr. Obrador is so imbecile he thinks this expression generates more sympaties, well, only in the most fanatical of the dumb losers who follow him, like those students who were not admitted to the UNAM and are now asking for his support.

What a ridiculous poor guy, in a few weeks, he has destroyed his career and political capital completely and has aligned most political forces against him and his party.

None listened to his petition to join him in his stupid demands, the PRI turned them down, even though the PRD are expriistas, then they talked to the Partido Verde, and the same, turned down, they talked to Patricia Mercado, and the same, turned down. They tried to get attention from the international press, only to get criticized time and time again.

And now they say they will try to get international support, from who? from Hugo Chavez? from Cuba? from China?

Patetical.

Posted by: emptyboxes | August 12, 2006 07:08 AM

It seems to me there is no shame in La Jornada, here a trick they use to play the game of AMLO

http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2006/08/12/index.php

What a shame on these retrograds. They are the only newspaper reporting this stupid stuff. Not even El Universal is playing on these lies because they know there are no evidences of any fraud.

Posted by: emptyboxes | August 12, 2006 10:37 AM

emptyboxes:

you comments have become so predictably irrelevant, that I don't even bother to read them in detail. If you have something ob substance to say, could you please preface it with some sign? That will save me a lot of time. Thanks.

Posted by: pasilla | August 12, 2006 11:26 AM

Ariel Orellana:

I agree, and so I said: the PREP in the inept hands of the current IFE administration more an instrument of propaganda, than a useful source of information (we all now, official results, but without "legal" power). But as spoiler demonstrate onece more, it's a lot easier to rant about the virtues of one candidate, the sins of the other, without saying anything of substance, really. But spoiler is tired, probably tired of the democratic play...

Posted by: pasilla | August 12, 2006 11:31 AM

The PRD has been whining about a supposed "eleccion de estado". I have to admit, they were right. There is indeed an eleccion de estado campaign going on right now...

BUT, this election is in Chiapas, and it is the PRD doing it, so, that is alright.

Saque las manos, le exigen a Pablo Salazar

Redacción Excélsior

nacional@nuevoexcelsior.com.mx


El caso de la supuesta intervención del aparato de estado en Chiapas a favor del nieto del poeta Jaime Sabines, quien compite por la gubernatura con el emblema de la coalición Por el Bien de Todos, fue condenado en el Congreso de la Unión y por mayoría se aprobó un punto de acuerdo para que el mandatario Pablo Salazar Mendiguchía "saque las manos" del proceso electoral local.

Elementos sobran para comprobar que hay una franca protección de Salazar a Juan Sabines, dijo el senador Héctor Astudillo Flores, candidato derrotado a la gubenatura de Guerrero.

"No hay duda de que ha habido acciones, nombramientos, designaciones que muestran que hay una intervención que en ocasiones ha violentado la propia ley, voy a citar algunos casos", dijo.

Inició la enumeración con Oswaldo Chacón como contralor de la legalidad electoral, quien, dijo, "no reúne y no reunió en su momento los requisitos porque fungió de 2003 a 2005, como secretario técnico de la Secretaría de Gobierno del estado de Chiapas y esto es un impedimento en términos de la ley local". dijo.

También señaló que Andrés González Díaz, ex coordinador de campaña del actual gobernador chiapaneco, fue designado en estos comicios como director de organización electoral del Instituto Estatal Electoral, señaló el priista.

Astudillo Flores acusó desde la tribuna que los fondos para la reconstrucción de aquel estado, tras el paso del huracán Stan, se utilizaron en forma partidista.

El senador panista Juan José Rodríguez Prats solicitó la palabra antes de sumarse a la votación. "Definitivamente se ha volcado al Estado y a todo el aparato sobre Sabines".

Posted by: Jerry B | August 12, 2006 11:39 AM

Can one of the less irrational AMLO supporters please correct me if I am wrong, but didn't AMLO promise that he did not want the election anulled?

Posted by: Jerry B | August 12, 2006 11:41 AM

AMLO and PRD want the election annulled. They don't really want a total recount, that is all propaganda, is pure window dressing so that the dumb followers have something that sounds coherent. He can't tell them to sing in the streets something like "Anull the election!" that will not fly, even among his most staunch supporters.
But now that they saw there is nothing to be found in those Ballot Stations, they are looking for any little excuse the get them annulled.
Too late my friends. And now PAN will respond in kind and they are begining by taking away the Chiapas election, which was pretty much in PRD's pocket, and now not anymore as the many of the panistas of the state will vote for PRI, and you can be sure they will, they don't appreciate what PRD is been doing.
PAN has been and will be pacient until the TRIFE finally confirms Felipe Calderon. They have been working with other political parties like PRI, P. Verde and Alternativa and Nueva Alianza. They are building a mighty alliance that will pass Felipe's reforms and iniciatives and will make PRD like harder.
Never interrupt your enemy when he is destroying himself.

Posted by: emptyboxes | August 12, 2006 12:57 PM

Poor AMLO, he knows these are his last days at the center of Mexican politics and everyday the inertia of his defeat pushes him away and he cannot accept it, he will do whatever to remain in the center, in the news in the headlines, dictating the news of the day, it does not matter if he destroys his parties aspirations, it doesn´t matter if Marcelo is losing all his popularity also.
History is passing AMLO by and he will fall into oblivion.
All is gone, only the sour taste of dreams that will never materialize: A Statue of himself next to that of Benito Juarez that will never be. A picture of him in Palacio Nacional that will not be. A country that will not belong to him. Power slips away from his hands. Colors do not shine. Political analists and intellectuals no longer talk about his greatness and political power and his popularity and they do not foresee him as the next president anymore, everyone has assumed Felipe Calderon will be the next president, why? The process is not over yet, he says. Books no longer talk about his political success or achievements. No more blanket media interviews at Televisa and TV Azteca. No more conferences gathering intellectuals and artists to adore and praise him.
And the opportunity to take revenge of PAN and their insults is no longer there.
What purification of the institutions? Which institutions? IFE, TRIFE, The Presidency? Those he is trying to destroy?
What is left of all that? Only a bunch of ignorant underachievers living at the camps and that need food and money to spend. Only radical groups with no political, economical or intellectual influence like CGH, Panchos villas, atencos, EZLN, ERP, etc. Homeless, punks, prostitutes and beggars joining his camps in search of some food and shelter and willing to yell and to carry those signs. Mandoki and Julio Hernandez and La Jornada and Proceso and their dogmatic clientele readers with zero political influence, the very radical and worst media. Pictures of Lenin, Stalin, Marx, red communist flags intertwined with the yellow and black flags of PRD at the zocalo and at the camps in Reforma. Dante and Beto Anaya and their useless political contribution.
International press having a day at him, criticizing everyone of his moves, Castañeda has more influence in leftist newspapers than anybody else in PRD, what a shame!.
Little pieces of news starting to make it to the press and it is bothering AMLO and his party officials, a man died in one of the camps, a girl was rape, some people are stealing the belongings of some of the people from other states, thiefs hanging around and looking for some opportunities.

The Planton has no way back unless Felipe Calderon comes and kneels before him and accepts him as President, then he will leave the next day. In his dreams.

Posted by: emptyboxes | August 12, 2006 01:32 PM

Here is how a usual PRD Follower thinks:

"Hi I am a Mexican living in the United States, I came to this country looking for work, I hate this country and I support AMLO, Cuba and Hugo Chavez and I would like Mexico to become something like Cuba, of course I will continue living in this terrible country where I even brought my family to live and to work here. I hate it here, the people, the language, their alledged democratic system. I think Osama bin laden is a real heroe, the United States really deserved the semptember 11 attacks. They have never done anything good for humanity, in reality the soviets saved the world from nazi germany and the soviet communist system really works great but the problem is they had to spend all the money in arms because the United States, where I live and work, was always trying to destroy communism. But communism really work for humanity. I live here in the United States and I work at a miserable restaurant, of course I have a new car and a nice spacious house, and we eat meat everyday and we enjoy the freedom to travel and to see and read and to say anything we want and we also have economic freedoms to open a business if we want, but I hate all of these, the terrible conditions of capitalism, I hate George Bush and I hate the American Flag and I sometimes burn one in my garden just for fun. I love Sadam Hussein and I also have a picture of Che Guevara in my living room, I believe in revolution and the power of the people.
That is why I love comandante Fidel Castro, he established a real democracy in Cuba like when he gathers all the people in the plaza and talks to them directly and that is exactly what Hugo Chavez does in Venezuela and AMLO wants to do the same in Mexico. That is why I support AMLO, Viva Hugo Chavez! Viva Fidel Castro! Viva Osama bin laden! Viva AMLO."

Posted by: emptyboxes | August 12, 2006 05:14 PM

Of course we should hate the United States, Empty boxes. If they (and those stinking British) hadn't interfered with Comrade Hitler's plans, we wouldn't have to worry about those interfering Jews (who are responsible for all wars) anymore.

Posted by: Jerry B | August 12, 2006 06:13 PM

Mr. Lopez is a paranoid loser that wants to lay blame on onyone but himself for blowing his January ten point lead. He knows he lost so he's doing a snow job to weasel his way out of assuming responsability. It is a wonder to behold and pathetic to experience. We Mexicans are being punished for one small man and his maffia's born-to-fail arrogance. In a runoff he would lose again, big time.

Posted by: rodolfo | August 12, 2006 07:56 PM

I would die laughing if the TEPJF ordered a runoff. And, since their decisions are not appealable, they can.

Posted by: Jerry B | August 12, 2006 08:07 PM

Jerry B: A run off will certainly give a landslide victory to Felipe Calderon.
I hope somebody will carry out a poll and check on the question: Who would you vote for if we had an election today?

Posted by: emptyboxes | August 12, 2006 08:50 PM

Castro has no democracy in Cuba,
North Korea has no democracy,
Saddams Iraq had no democracy,still dont.
Not independent like it should be.
No person who thinks with a iota of freedom in their blood, wants to live like that.
Democracy was eliminated, when the 1st democratic president that was ever seen in Mexico, Fco.Madero, was assasinated with help from the USA. For over 70 years demacracy laid dormant.
With Fox, it renewed.
2 of July, 2006, demoracy is once again hijacked.
The party of the rich and powerful, and the gullible, PRI-PAN, wish to keep AMLO from winning. Hence the democratic process has been threated.
Mexicans, real democratic Mexicans will rise to the ocasion, with arms if need be, to defend what is so sacred. Freedom. Freedom is at stake in Mexico, a dictator from the right, (FE)lipe (CAL)deron is trying to bury Mexicos freedom and democracy with an illegal take over.
This will not stand, we will take more than just streets, if are freedom is threatend. But to impose a dictator of the left, is imposible for the true Mexican, who yearns for freedom, and true democracy. We would not allow that. AMLO and all of us who want true democracy, demand that their be a full recount. If not, then nothing is proven. Only that theirs something to hide. If FECAL where a true democrat, he too would demand a full recount, Voto X Voto Casilla X Casilla
but hes not. The proof is in his actions.
AMLO has taken over, one street, yeah important, but more than the freedom that true idependent democracy means?
Poor individuals, who generalize and think all people are the same. We dont want a Castro or Hugo version, or a systum of goverment that varies from what we have now. We still want malls, ferias, cars, all the enemities, that a capital systum gives. But we dont have that in Mexico now do we? More equitable. AMLO is equitable. Hes not radical to demand a true democratic process. Hes correct and their for we support him. Proof is, some ppl in the USA, watch AMLO and whats going on, and some think,wow, if only we had done that with Gore, maybe no 911, no current wars. The whole world is watching.
U want investment in Mexico? So do we. Theirs no arguement their, we have much in common. We dont want a commuist. Thats so imature to think that we do.
The left in Mexico wants true demorcatic change, it was revived with FOX, but he didnt do much with it, or allowed 2, but thats democracy. And now FOX, the PRI, the PAN, FECAL, most media in Mex, and elsewhere, want to bury the democratic process. No way jose. Its not going to happen, to many lost years. Does the PAN want its own 70 years too? So, join with us, in demanding a full recount. It will ease along the process. Whoever wins the full recount wins. Y ya, se acabo.
It will be over, the winner takes the prize. But not without a full recount, because if they try to impose FECAL on us, the true Mexicans, who yearn for freedom and deomcracy and change, real capitlistic, 1st world change, for more of us, not less, not just 4 a few; we wont allow a dictator of the right to take power. Their would be a rebellion.
Not the 1st time that has happen here.

Hermanos, touch your heart for Mexico, what it means, 10,000 years of history,
the mixing of all races, becoming us.
We owe it too ourselves to unite in the defense of true democratic change.
People of the world who yearn for change, yearn for freedom, please keep us in your thoughts, and watch, this is going to get very instresting.
"May u live in intresting times."
a very old curse in china.

Posted by: maya0 | August 12, 2006 08:55 PM

Say the election was anulled, and AMLO went on to lose the next one. Will he accept that, or will he claim it was unfair because he was forced to make an arse out of himself to secure it?

Posted by: PeterN | August 12, 2006 09:05 PM

Ms. Maya the zeroeth wrote this: "Mexicans will rise to the ocasion, with arms if need be". Umh... Where are the arms going to come from, Maya? Your heroic PRI president Echeverria (one of AMLO's heroes) basically banned the private posession of firearms in 1974.

And, somehow, I do not see the three of four PRDistas in Baja California, for example, mounting a revolution, armed or not.

Posted by: Jerry B | August 12, 2006 09:07 PM

Any process that does not lead AMLO to the presidency is inherently biased, unfair, sexist, racist, classist and imperialist. As a point of fact, maybe elections should just be done away with, since rich capitalists and Americans only manipulate them.

Posted by: Jerry B | August 12, 2006 09:09 PM

"Hi, I am a PRD Follower and I hate USA, I hate USA with all my hearth and I love Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez and Osama Bin Laden, they and AMLO are the real heroes of democracy, True democracy, like when all the cubans gather at the plaza and Fidel Castro speaks to them, that is real democracy, not the voting system in so called democracies like Germany or Spain or USA or Mexico, where the votes do not count and it is all fraud. Real democracy is in Iran where the ayatollah leaders speak in front of a real crowd, same like in venezuela with Hugo Chavez, he even has his own tv show to have the opportunity to speak to the people directly, and same like Fidel Castro in Cuba. That is why I support AMLO, he is like Fidel Castro or like the Iranian Ayatollah or like Hugo Chavez, he has a special gift to sense the will of the people, oh yes, and when he speaks, it is the will of the people speaking, that is why the perredistas get together to listen to him at the zocalo, that is real democracy.
I hate USA, I like to burn American flags sometimes in my backyard (I have a nice backyard in my beautiful house here in Texas, and a garage and I just purchased a brand new Ford Lobo, and soon my family and I will get our residence card) I hate this stupid country so much, I was so happy when I saw those airplanes hitting those towers and killing all those Americans, they really deserved it.

Vote by Vote! Viva AMLO! Viva Fidel Castro! Viva Osama Bin Laden! Viva Stalin! Viva Hitler!

Posted by: em | August 12, 2006 09:24 PM

Looks like the DF assembly plans to give itself a little bonus of $1oo,ooo pesos and according to Lorena Villavicencio of the PRD this money will end up in AMLO's war chest. From notimex:

"La coordinadora de la fracción del sol azteca, Lorena Villavicencio --a título personal-- reconoció que este dinero lo podría destinar a la resistencia civil de Andrés Manuel López Obrador."

What happened to Emptyboxes? Has his defective genetic code finally taken over?

Posted by: K. Vronna | August 12, 2006 09:40 PM

Hi I am a PRD Follower living in the USA. I hate this country so much with all my hearth and I wish it will be completely destroyed soon.
I moved to Texas and I live here with all my family I have a good job, I am very smart because these stupid americans give me a good job and very good salary and the stupid dogs don't know I am communist and I hate them. I am so smart! I have purchased a house here and I even have a Ford Lobo, is red and very nice and when I go to DF and show off with all my friends there.

I would like AMLO to be the president, I know he really won, He never lies, those panistas are a bunch of liers.

You see, AMLO has a special gift, he talks to the people directly, that is why we don't need these stupid election systems in Mexico, just go to the Asamblea Informativa and AMLO and the people there will decide.

I hate America so much. I would like Osama Bin Laden to attack them again, just don't attack Texas because I don't want to lose my job.

I love Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez and Stalin and one of my best heroes is Mao from China. These are real heroes of the world, not like washington and these stupid people of this country.

I hope AMLO can impose himself and be the president and stay in power like Fidel Castro, for about 50 years or so, that is real democracy.

Oh I hate these americans they are so dumb, I am very smart because they don't know I am pro castro and pro osama and I support AMLO, and they gave me the opportunity to work here and to bring my family and to get my papers, when I came crossing the rio grande they helped me. They are so dumb and I am so smart.

Viva AMLO! Viva Osama bin Laden! Viva Fidel Castro! Viva Iran! Viva Hisbollah! Mueran USA! Mueran Israel! Vote by Vote!

Posted by: emptyboxes | August 12, 2006 09:50 PM

pasilla, fco, maya0, where are you? help me with Jerry B and bunburina and K.Vrona, please.

I am on your side. I hate americans too. I want to burn american flags. I believe in Stalin too. I am pro Castro and Pro Hugo Chavez. And I support Hisbollah, Osama Bin Laden, the iranian Ayatollah, and just about every enemy of the USA in the world, I support them all and I would like them to destroy the USA and I want to help AMLO impose a real democracy and totalitarian regime in Mexico, with AMLO in power for 50 years and then after he dies, he can pass power to his younger brother to continue with his revolution.

Come on guys! I am on your side.

Posted by: emptyboxes | August 12, 2006 10:18 PM

Emptyboxes, if you can just find out a way to get rid of these irritating elections, Mexico will be a much better country. Elections only generate bad feelings and cost a lot of money that can be better spent on making the poor into dependent clients of AMLO. The stupid Mexicans also have a bad tendency to not elect the right leader, because they are not intelectual enough to withstand the racist/imperialist/yankee/el junque propaganda machine. It would make much more sense to just let their betters (like Monsivais, Pontiawaski, assorted actors and actresses, and a bunch of very honest ex PRIistas) make the hard decisions for them.

After all, this system works very well in Cuba, China and North Korea. The fact that 10% of Cuba's population lives in Miami is just further proof that they are too stupid to make decisions for themselves.

Posted by: Jerry B | August 12, 2006 10:42 PM

On the fence, sorry for taking so long, but summer weekends are made for the outdoors. The PRD has overstated facts before, I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case again. The last assumption you make, that ballots can be stuffed prior to the count is wrong. The count is made as soon as voting ends. There are many safeguards against ballot stuffing: transparent urns, numbered ballots, a synchronized voter count by the station secretary and all representatives (they have a copy of the voter list, which they mark with a "VOTO" stamp). Additionally, since party representatives, up to 2 per party normally are not at the casilla they would normally vote (iow, they can be assigned on the other side of the city), then there are always more ballots than voters, to allow these representatives to cast their vote at the casilla they are if every single voter casted their vote. Finally, the votes are counted in front of everyone and everyone signs off on their agreement with the numbers or, if something does not add up, they can write it down in the act (tally sheet) and sign it.

First, lets describe the proper procedure and what is necessary for everything to add up: On voting day the first act (the electoral day - "jornada electoral") is filled upon opening of the station, this one includes the number of ballots received, and is then updated any incidents that ocurred during the voting process (drunks, people with political propaganda, someone intimidating voters, etc). As voters come in, representatives sign ballots at the top, at the point where it detaches from the block, and making sure to cross over the detachment line. At the end of the voting process, the votes are counted in front of everyone, any unused ballots are cancelled, put into a special envelope, the number of ballots written on the outside. Now the filling of the second act, the tally sheet, begins, first with the votes for every party, the number anulled votes and then number of unused votes. After this is done, everybody signs off, no exceptions. If they so wish, the representatives can sign off under protest and write down the reason why they do so. Now the list of voters, with the "VOTO" marks is put into an enverlope, the null votes into another envelope, the valid votes for all parties into yet another envelope and the tally sheet, protests, jornada electoral act in a final envelope. Now a package is made with all the left over crayons, indellible ink (used to mark the thumbs of voters that have participated, yet another safeguard), voting booth material, envelopes and the ballot blocks (with the representative's signatures) and then is sealed with a special tape. The 4 officials who man the station sign across the tape as to render it sealed. If the representatives wish to add their signatures they can. Finally, the final envelope is put into a transparent slot on the outside of the package and also sealed. Sound complicated? Try it after 12 hours under the July sun. Believe me, it sucks, I did it 5 times, once as an official and 4 as a representative.

Basic scenarios:
- Everything is perfect. Never had one of those.
- Sometimes, a station will be subdivided because of a high number of voters. You can have as little as one, seen as many as 6. When this happens you will get votes from one subdivided casilla in another one. How the hell this happens I will never know, there are at least 4 pairs of eyes on the voters at all times, but it WILL happen, I guarantee it. Since votes can't me moved back to their original station (as opposed to the scenario where a vote is put into the wrong urn within the same station, where you can move the ballot back to its correct urn) then you already have stations with more votes than voters participated and with less than voters participated.
- Since you have a complicated procedure that has never been practiced by the official, its almost a sure thing that one step will be screwed up: one of the envelopes will be left out (and probably noticed after the package has been sealed), the envelope thats supposed to go on the outside will be put inside, someone will make a mistake while writing down numbers and then correct it, etc etc Some of these are problems that will justify an opening of the package, some will not.

What can account for a significant number of missing ballots? One of the envelopes is left out. This one will generally be the unused ballots envelope, as many officials will assume that they can get rid of it (who needs unused ballots, right?) or, since its made so much earlier than the putting together of the package they'll leave it lying around and forget about it until its too late. If all the other numbers line up, then any of this possibilities will be the most likely ones.

What can account for a siginificant number of excess ballots? I've known of officers who will ask to put their unused ballots envelope into the package of the contiguos station, assuming that it will be ok. If everything else adds up, then this is possible.

Remember, the number of voters is known and can be looked over, when I say "everything else adds up" I mean that the number of voters matches the number of votes, wether anulled or valid.

If there are suspicions as to wether the urn was stuffed and then the act doctored, you have several ways of detecting this: you will find ballots with non matching serial numbers, ballots have watermarks and other security measures, each representative's signature has to line up with the corresponding part on the voting block, etc. For stuffing to work, ballots and signatures will have to be forged perfectly plus you still have to doctor the tally sheet. However, every party has a copy of the original sheet, making it practically impossible for this scenario to occur. If anybody tries it, I'm certain they will get caught and anyone trying to cheat knows this, stupidity would have to be monumental on the part of the offending party to go ahead and try it.

I hope I have not bored you to death with this lengthy explanation, but I hope this helps you reach your own conclusion.

Posted by: Ariel R. Orellana | August 12, 2006 11:28 PM

Thank you very much, Ariel for a very thorough explanation.

Posted by: K. Vronna | August 13, 2006 01:39 AM

fco, I can understand why AMLO would continue to try to prove that the missing ballots were indeed votes for him, but the numbers still don't point in that direction in this particular scenario. I guess this is the nature of what's going on right now.

Now, as to the "whole picture" I believe you're also missing perspective here. These are the "worst of the worst" offending casillas from the point of view of the Coalicion. You cannot simply extrapolate the problems here and claim that the whole election is tainted by the same problems.

The information you've provided is incomplete in many ways, there is no reference as to the total number of stations recounted at the moment the information was compiled. Sometimes there are only blanket statements. Given this limitations, I'm going to categorize the problems reported according to their severity. This distinction is arbitrary and I've bascially made 3 categories: problems that will probably be dismissed, problems that will be looked at in more detail, so the outcome is unpredictable and things that will probably anull the casilla. Finally, there is a categories for problems unrelated to the election and another for incomplete information.

- Trivial problems, will probably be dismissed, including small numbers of missing ballots, small numbers of mistakes in the counting (< 15 in both cases), votes punt into the wrong casilla and "objected votes": 27

- Medium problems, will have to be looked into, outcome unpredictable, including more than 15 missing ballots (even if no other problems), more than 15 votes miscounted, combinations of trivial problems and, most importantly, opened packages with no other problems reported. That is packages whose contents otherwise match perfectly, but were found opened ("gutted" was a one of the more colorfull descriptions I read): 456

- Severe problems, will probably result in anullment, including more votes than voters, more ballots than voters and opened packages that had additional problems: 25

- Problems unrelated to the voting process (magistrates blocking access to representatives and similar): 8

- Districts with incomplete information, on which no conclusions can be made: 14

If my assumptions are correct and I then proced to assume that half of the casillas with medium problems will be anulled then we're talking of some 250 anulled casillas with probably around 25% of the 12,000 casillas processed. At that rate, maybe 1000 casillas could be anulled. This would be 0.77% of the total. Let's work with round numbers and say 1% (1300 casillas) and that Calderon loses an average advantage of 150 votes per casilla. This means he would still have an advantage of about 50,000 votes, even discounting the vote changes in the rest of the casillas.

This scenario has many many holes and is based wild suppositions and now I will further assume that no more casillas will be anulled since the TEPJF has already ruled against that they do not meet the conditions to be opened.

So, what does the big picture look to me? Calderon will win, probably with more than 50,000 votes, but AMLO will be mad and we'll be here, arguing, a month from now.

Posted by: Ariel R. Orellana | August 13, 2006 01:46 AM

Mrs Jerry b. thinks that Echeverria was heroic, he was a monster, that should be locked away till dead. This just shows that Mrs Jerry b. is confused, and of course clearly shows that he knows dick about Mexican Histroy. Its no wonder that u think that their are no arms here. Weapons come into Mexico via the USA, as easy as drugs go into the USA via Mex.
See how little u really know about Mexico? La frontera is not deep Mexico. But then again, thats what u think is Mexico dont U, Mrs Jerry b?

Posted by: maya0 | August 13, 2006 01:48 AM

Miss Connolly,

Instead, or rather in addition to Ackerman, you should refer to articles of intellectuals like Krauze, Isabel Turrent, Jaime Sánchez Susarrey, Ezra Shabot, Soledad Loaeza, Elizondo Mayer, Lorenzo Mayer, etc. These people understand the situation in Mexico much better, they are some of the best social scientists in the country. Ackerman is second rate in comparison. I think the foreign press is mostly biased in favour of AMLO because they are lefties in the US. They should read the abovementioned intellectuals to see what the people with the deeper understanding of the situation in Mexico are saying, maybe then they would write more responsibly. The open letter from 135 intellectuals is very significative because they are the top SOCIAL SCIENTISTS in the country. The response by 500 'intellectuals' is irrelevant. Aside from Monsivais and a couple of others, they are artists and second rate intellectuals, no match for the others. Why should we care for what Diego Luna says, he is an actor. I am not surprised that this Maya00 idiot, who only repeats slogans, is an 'artist', most of them are like that, only feelings and no analysis. So please, people in the foreign press, see things as they are, not as you want them to be, no matter how noble your motives, because you are doing a disservice to Mexico (fortunately you do not have that much influence). 'Voto x Voto' is an absurdity and sore losing, which would only weaken the electoral institutions which regardless of errors are solid (Ugalde is not the whole thing fortunately). I am very glad the partial recount showed no big differences (a full recount would show even less differences in favour of AMLO because it would include his strongholds). Lets hope the government shows more courage and uses public force against the radicals. By the way Maya00, before you start calling me a fascist, AMLO fits rather well into the fascist definition: convergence on a charismatic leader, with all the show involved, a mass movement in constant mobilization, and so on. A couple of articles by Soledad Loaeza, Isabel Turrent and Silva Herzog showing the fascist traits of AMLO are very illustrating. He is potentially a Juan Doming Perón. So think about whom you call a fascist.

Posted by: mex | August 13, 2006 04:20 AM

Ariel Orellana,

Very illustrating description, thanks. Jorge Alcocer has interesting articles on similar lines.

Posted by: mex | August 13, 2006 04:31 AM

Mex: I do not believe Dr. Ugalde committed any errors at all despite what many AMLO apologists want to make us believe.

The fact that there was an inconsistencies file of Actas that were not included in the PREP, it has been documented that the political parties knew about it way before and that Horacio Duarte consulted these files. We cannot blame Dr. Ugalde for the lies of AMLO and the PRD Coalition.

Dr. Ugalde, as many professionals in the IFE cannot be blame for criminal and astute tactics from AMLO and the PRD Coalition to discredit and destroy the election process.

May be the only error of the IFE is not to accuse AMLO and the PRD Coalition of fabricating evidences to change the election results.

Posted by: emptyboxes | August 13, 2006 07:38 AM

Ms. Maya, please inform those of us who are not quite as smart as you in what significant ways that AMLO's economic program differs from that of Echeverria or Lopez Portillo. Will policy towards petroleum or electricity differ? Monetary policy? (Will the B de M maintain its independence?) And so on.

And, somehow, Ms. Maya, the idea of a bunch of armed intellectuals like yourself running around with guns would be almost risible if not for the fact that, like the Zapatistas in Chiapas, you will problably convince some poor dummies to actually start shooting. And, when the (stress the word "poor") dummies start dying, you and your ilk will be off to university in the hated United States, far away from it all and safe. You disgust me.

Posted by: Jerry B | August 13, 2006 08:24 AM

Pueblos indios, marginados por generaciones, admite Fox

El presidente de la República, Vicente Fox, ayer hoy que uno de los grandes retos que ha enfrentado su gobierno ha sido la situación de rezago y pobreza que han tenido que soportar los indígenas por generaciones, por eso hizo un llamado a agotar todos los frentes, en todos los niveles de gobierno y poderes del Estado, en la tarea de integrar a los pueblos y comunidades indígenas al desarrollo nacional.

Posted by: Calderon to the rescue !! | August 13, 2006 10:26 AM

I wish everybody would make short comments.
The long comments are unreadable, obfuscate and do not clarify your message.
We want to know your opinion, not your bias. Right now what do I think: Calderon got the most votes, period. The TRIFE will
certify it so, end of story.
What we read here is mostly nitpicking blabber among over-excited post-election junkies, Mexican-style. Please keep it short and acid!!
People reading this are watching and might conclude we're serving ourselves "just desserts".

Posted by: rodolfo | August 13, 2006 10:37 AM

Calderontotherescue: this is not the Nopaltitlan de las Flores Post, but the WASHINGTON Post site!
Could you at least translate your very original propaganda, or are you afraid of platitudes exposed, PUHLIZE...

Posted by: rodolfo | August 13, 2006 10:54 AM

Calderón pierde -6898 votos que en las actas del 2 de Julio habían sido sumados a su favor "por error", sin sustento en boletas electorales.
AMLO gana 2406 votos (perdiendo tan sólo 89, totalizando 2317)

Los votos perdidos por el PAN y ganados por AMLO arrojan un saldo de +9215 votos favorables a la coalición (6898+2317=9215).

I know emptyboxes will post some irrelevant stuff saying still is not enough votes to win the election. But the main point here is that thw whole process is FULL OF THIS CRAP.

My point is, FECAL has not been elected by the majority of Mexicans.

If the TRIFE would act responsible enough (which I doubt) it would rule to nullify all those voting polls. But I think their best way out would be to nullify the whole election so PRI-PAN can have a puppet I mean an intern President and do whatever the heck they want for the following 18 months and prepare with dirty tactics again in order to deal with that major threat for Mexico (AMLO). Isn't Democracy great?

Posted by: Get Real | August 13, 2006 12:10 PM

No doubt fco, pasilla, get real, maya0IQ et al would be just as strident in their claims of a corrupt election system had AMLO won.

I´m sure, if AMLO had won, the first thing he would have done is a comprehensive review of the election process that allowed a little Hitler like him to become president.

Posted by: | August 13, 2006 12:32 PM

Mrs Jerry b, a gringo mexican wannabe, pls go away to your life in the states, because thats all u know, pls butt out of Mexicos affairs.
Mexico para los Mexicanos. Vayase al carajo, instead of posting here. Because if a uprising does happen, hopefully not, your kind should not dare be in Mexico, because u will be found. And taken care of. Thats a promise, and not no threat.

Posted by: maya0 | August 13, 2006 12:41 PM

Maya0IQ,

"Come and have a go if you think you´re hard enough"

Posted by: PeterN | August 13, 2006 12:50 PM

Get Real: the nuts on the left would like nothing more than an anulled election which PBT made LEGALLY IMPOSSIBLE. PBT did this by impugning less than ALL the 300 districts. Lopez wants as much noise as possible to obscure the fact that he blew a 10 point lead, the poor schmuck.

Posted by: rodolfo | August 13, 2006 01:46 PM

maya0: this site is courtesy of the W Post, not Mexico. It would be nice if you showed some politeness. We are in a field of arguments and not a schoolyard for posturing bullies.

Posted by: rodolfo | August 13, 2006 02:01 PM

Lopez has just made a concession speech in his own slanted fashion, vowing to plant himself and his minions, at the TRIFE compound where Calderon's certification as "spurious president-elect" will take place. He has acknowledged in a bitter fashion, what else, that the TRIFE will give Calderon the victory. He took 40 minutes to say this.
He also went about with an endless list of numbers that go this way and that way and too large to quantify wrongs and misdeeds against him at the re-counting districts. The funny thing is not one squeak from the other races for senator, representatives and governorships. Lopez, the gods hate YOU and only you!

Posted by: rodolfo | August 13, 2006 02:43 PM

The TRIFE will not accept anymore impugnations from PRD or anyone else, they will begin to turn down all the rest of the PRD Coalition impugnation. In one or two weeks they will declare Felipe Calderon the Elected President. And in that very moment, the vacuum of power will begin inside the PRD. And all of those who cast their lots with AMLO: Ricardo Monreal, Noruña, Cota, Shaunban, Acosta and the rest will have to choose between Jesus Ortega and the Cardenistas or Marcelo Ebrard and Camacho Solis and Ricardo Monreal. It will be the PRI inside the PRD versus the Old Left Camp of Cardenas and Ortega. We saw a little of this a while ago during the DF Nomination process when AMLO supported Marcelo and Cardenas supported Ortega.

There will be terrible internal divisions inside the party, AMLO will be left out meaningless.

Posted by: emptyboxes | August 13, 2006 02:53 PM

emptyboxes, I agree. Lopez will become irrelevant like Marcos. Mexicans aren't children that can be fooled by this Indestructible-Ray of Hope-Transformer echeverrista egomaniac.

Posted by: rodolfo | August 13, 2006 03:47 PM

Rodolfo: The problem with Lopez Obrador is that he knows he will be irrelevant after the elections.

Already this passed Saturday, as soon as AMLO left to Chiapas, Leonel Cota quickly told the press that they were going to consider lifting the sit-ins completely. AMLO reacted a few hours later from Chiapas by declaring that the sit-ins were going to continue, but the damage was done, El Universal published the note on Sunday. My guess is that this was a little attempt from Leonel Cota to disactivate the blockades and sit-ins because they are highly unpopular and many people in the PRD do not agree. Leonel Cota would have never said anything like that, but he knows that the Panistas are now turning into a political enemy that will try to destroy them completely.
PAN will make PRD pay for this, AMLO will be irrelevant. Already the Chiapas PRD Candidate will be the first one to suffer the consecuences as PAN gathered Nueva Alianza to support together the PRI Candidate, PRI will win and I have no doubt about it. PRI will have 3 representatives in each polling stations, the PRI-PVEM Coalition Representative, the PAN and the Nueva Alianza representatives,together they will make sure to defend each and everyone of the PRI votes and to try to invalidate many votes for the PRD candidate. The last poll from Reforma indicated a match between the PRD Coalition and the PRI Coalition. and PAN in third place with some 11 percent. I have no doubt the Panistas will not vote for the PRD, and they will give the PRI Candidate the victory.
This is a most beneficial political move for Felipe Calderon, who will have a landslide mayority in congress and the senate with PAN, PANAL, PRI and PVEM. PRI is happy because a victory in Chiapas will help them recover the much needed strenght to stop the diaspora of Priistas to the PRD.


Posted by: emptyboxes | August 13, 2006 04:13 PM

Emptyboxes, I have no idea about Chiapas. I feel it's too close to call. Mexican's cultural nihilism might give PBT a victory like they did in Guerrero. The southern states love to stick it to the "right". I say its a toss-up. Large population centers
have the upper hand but I have no idea how cohesive they are to fight the governor's
crookery.

Posted by: rodolfo | August 13, 2006 05:09 PM

I see that President Vicente Fox is now urging Mexico to do something to help its huge indigenous population, which continues to suffer in miserable conditions.

For example, according to INEGI, approximately 95% of the high infant mortality rate among the indigenous is related to the infants' consumption of 'unsafe liquids,' primarily unsanitary water.

I wonder if President Vicente Fox knows anyone in Mexico with some power, who might have done anything about this over the past few years, instead of simply talking about it shortly before the President is to retire?

Posted by: El Cid | August 13, 2006 05:34 PM

Why is it that they always speak about the indigenous people as if they suffered some kind of disability? Isn't this a free country? Can't they work? Why do you people speak about them as though the rest of Mexicans were guilty of their misery? Am I suppose to feel guilty? Am I suppose to give a damn?

This is a free country and all people are free to move, work, start a little business, sell and buy. Many of these poor people go in search of jobs to other places, to cities like Mexico City, Monterrey, Guadalajara, Puebla.

They can search for a better job, they can try to look after themselves.

Why do some people want to keep them there waiting for someone to come and give them a tip or a little donation so that they can eat or live better?

Many of these people have a piece of land that did not cost them a dime, it was given to them by the government. The problem is, once you give a person a land, he will expect you to give them a tractor too, and when you give them a tractor and a land, he will ask you for the seeds and raw materials to be able to farm, and when you give them the land, the tractor and the seeds and materials, they will ask you to provide them with transportation so that they can take their production to the marketplace, and when you give them the land, the tractor, the seeds and materials, and the transportation, they will ask you to keep the price of their crops produced at a reasonable level so that they can make a living. And when you do all that, they take the money from the production, drink it away in a cantina and some stupid intellectual comes and blames you for not educating them correctly so that they could manage their money well.

It is better not to give them a damn thing. They have as much right as me to get a free land, I have no right, they must not have any either. They need to work hard for what they want, that will make them independent, proud people.

It is pretty much like those parents who send their kids to UNAM or any other state funded institution and then they forget about them. They expect UNAM to do the whole work for them and their kids end up being bad students and getting in trouble. Had those parents paid a little, they would have cared more for their kids and they would not be getting in trouble with the CGH and EZLN and other radicals.

There is no free lunch. Just get it.

Posted by: emptyboxes | August 13, 2006 06:04 PM

I wonder what AMLO's declaration that he will never accept Felipe Calderon as president means in the long run.

If he does this now just as the recuento is wrapping up, what will he do if and when the TRIFE proclaims Calderon President-elect? Will there be violence in the streets disguised as "revolucion de los pobres"?

Even worse - and regardless of which candidate you fellow bloggers support this scenario could be so explosive on so many levels - what if Calderon gets assassinated in the midst of all this?

AMLO had his chance to win the election by going to both of the debates but chose not to and instead of campaigning here in the Northern states where I live, he chose instead to scare off would-be supporters, call Mr. Fox names and generally make a bad impression on the swing vote that could've given him his victory last month.

Lets all pray and work so that violence can be avoided in this situation and so that there can be a fair and just resolution to this conflict very soon.

Posted by: Beco | August 13, 2006 07:54 PM

Beco, when Calderon is declared president-elect by TRIFE, Lopez and his compatriots are going to get a cold shower of reality. What makes them nervous is the simple truth. They fabricated their July 10 point lead. They fabricated that they won. They fabicated the "fraud". Lopez fabricated he was "president" for an American TV interview. With such weapons in their arsenal, we shouldn't be too worried. We should pitty such a loser.

Posted by: rodolfo | August 13, 2006 08:12 PM

"A Tale Told by a Fool to an idiot, Full of Sound and Fury, Signifying Nothing" Macbeth.
To know what will happen once Felipe is declared elected president all we need to look is at the kind of people at the zocalo.
Do you see any big names there other than PRD officials?
Who supports AMLO in Mexico?
EZLN, CGH, ERP, Panchos Villas, Atencos, Anti-globalifolicos, artists and intellectuals with little or no political influence at all.

The truth is that AMLO's movement has had no response from the general public, and he has become a nightmare for the people in the DF.


Posted by: emptyboxes | August 13, 2006 08:37 PM

emptyboxes, you bring up an important point. Aside from the usual suspects, you don't see the military making a presence. You don't see governors, foreign personalities or any outstanding citizens, Nobel winners or anyone close to being relevant standing side by side with these PBT clowns. Lopez is going down hard and his oh-so-loyal compadres will abandon ship like opportunistic rats, running to save their sorry, very wet asses.

Posted by: rodolfo | August 13, 2006 08:59 PM

Why is it that they always speak about the indigenous people as if they suffered some kind of disability? Isn't this a free country? Can't they work? Why do you people speak about them as though the rest of Mexicans were guilty of their misery? Am I suppose to feel guilty? Am I suppose to give a damn?...

...It is better not to give them a damn thing. They have as much right as me to get a free land, I have no right, they must not have any either. They need to work hard for what they want, that will make them independent, proud people.
Posted by: emptyboxes | August 13, 2006 06:04 PM
---------------------------------

Absolutely, absolutely precious. I will treasure this response, save it, and I will bring it out to remind myself of the big-hearted generosity of those who think they created the world for their own success.

Here, in the USA, a century ago, the American South was a poor, undeveloped region, dominated by poor whites and poor blacks indebted to absentee landholders (sharecroppers), in which mathematically you could not produce enough of your crops to pay your way out of debt.

Those who had manufacturing jobs were paid so little as to sacrific caloric intake so that their children could eat.

Roads were not paved, education was scarce, and easily preventable disease was rampant. The greatest population movement was from people fleeing the region's desperate poverty.

But this situation, you see, was cured, and now the American South is developed and prospering, and now Americans move to, instead of away from the South.

And what cured this area? What transformed this area, as poor as rural Mexico, to a part of the developed world, in less than a generation?

It certainly wasn't professionals and small businessmen lecturing the starving masses on how they just needed to work harder and smarter.

It wasn't evangelical preachers telling them how much God appreciated the humble, hard working poor.

No, it was Federal spending. It was Franklin Delano Roosevelt spending billions of dollars in the region at every level. Roads were paved. Electrical distribution and river and flood control systems were built. Health programs and disease eradication was carried out. Public jobs programs built cities, infrastructure, housing.

The military relocated its bases and its military manufacturing from the industrial Northeast to the South.

And it was all done with the complete, enthusiastic cooperation of the most anti-government, anti-regulation politicians ever to have held office: Southern Democrats, who hated the Federal government ever since the Civil War.

But, of course, maybe Americans are different, and only they can benefit and advance when their society and infrastructure is modernized, and Mexicans cannot, and what they really need are your lectures and haughty dismissals.

Posted by: El Cid | August 13, 2006 09:11 PM

El Cid, I hope your Public Service Announcement has ended and we can all get back to the subject of El Zocalo's wily pretenders, wether you love or hate them, tell us obout that and don't stray to other subjects, PLEASE.

Posted by: rodolfo | August 13, 2006 09:26 PM

True, emptyboxes' post on indians is a shame. While it is true that self-help and correct incentives are central and paternalism can be counterproductive, it is not the whole picture. Development is a complicated issue. It is certainly more complex than 'get work'. I 'give a damn' about other people. It is this attitude from some of the better-off that gives substance to AMLO's diatribes against 'the right' and followers like Maya0 about fascists. It is unfortunate to have to share the trenches with reactionary types because of the imperative to confront AMLO.

Posted by: mex | August 13, 2006 09:37 PM

Rodolfo:
I believe people need to make a distinction here about what it's happening in the Zocalo.

While for Felipe Calderon the election is pretty much over and he is preparing for power. For AMLO and consecuently for the PRD Coalition, the campaign continues and they want us to get a perception of reality according to what they want. So then they say that there were 10 thousand casillas opened, same as they said AMLO was 10 points up in one secret poll before the elections, same as when AMLO showed the Salamanca video that turned out to be false allegations, but perception is the most important thing for them somehow, and now at the recount, of course they are impugnating each and everyone of the votes favoring Felipe Calderon because there is a little spot here or a little line out of place there or because it was folded incorrectly, etc. it doesn't matter that the TRIFE will validate them later when they checked them again, what matters is the public perception of impugnating 15 thousand votes during this recount. What matter is the perception their actions generate in the public opinion.

And here is their problem. The PRD Coalition was very smart at working with the public perceptions during the campaign but today the campaign is over and the people are not into believing perceptions, they are not even paying attention anymore, they only know that Felipe Calderon won and that the TRIFE is taking its time to confirm him, and that there is a guy who will not accept the results and that is sad and there is a planton that is affecting their lives, that is all, there is no perception there anymore, it is the truth only, the facts.

Manipulation of public perception is a technique, among others like spionage,that the PRD and AMLO got from their Cuban friends and counselors. In Cuba, Fidel Castro and his people are masters at playing with the public perceptions of the poor Cubans. I remember one afternoon in a Havana restaurant I was having a most interesting chat with a Cuban fellow about the meaning of Freedom, he told me that the simple ability to travel did not make a man free, and that there were many things in Mexico and other countries that people considered freedom but were not necessarily so, I, being a pragmatical panista moron, inquired him whether he was actually telling me that the Cuban enjoyed more freedom than Mexicans,to which he agree, and I also told him that I was so impressed at how good the Cubans were at mentally masturbating themselves with these idea of Freedom, I was also going to ask him whether they had other mental masturbations like this one, but he got a bit offended and left.

My point is that during the campaign the "Everything is perception" technique brought to Mexico by these Cubans and put into practice by the PRD and AMLO people could only work partially successful during the campaign, because it was during the campaign that people were paying attention.

But the PRD Coalition keeps playing this perception game thinking it will work the same as in Cuba and it is clearly not working.
Mexicans are not as good at mentally masturbating themselves as many Cubans living under the Castro regime seem to be. I have even tried to mentally masturbate myself with little or no success.

In Cuba, this perception technique works because the people there have none else to listen to, no different opinion to hear, no other newspaper to read, so they are forced to believe their Cuban TV and Radio and Newspapers and Government and they have to put up with this perception brain washing technique every other day or so. In times of crisis, it is everyday of course.

But in Mexico we live under a chaotical flow of information, just as it should be in a free country, and the PRD perceptions technique attemps can only reach those people who are listening closely, and sadly for the PRD and AMLO, those are the most radicals and the losers who have nothing to do. The rest of Mexicans, we are too busy working and living in a real world we don't have time for perceptions and mental masturbations.

Posted by: emptyboxes | August 13, 2006 10:03 PM

And for Max and El Cid: I don't really know what is more offending for our indigenous people in Mexico, if morons like me saying I don't give a damn or people like you who want to treat them like mentally challenged people incapable of fixing their own problems.
And by the way, I would like somebody to find out how much money our government has spent in programs to help many of these people in the last 50 years or so. You will be surprised.
However I never stated that I was against Federal Programs and projects. What I am against it's clientele techniques that help them only temporarily.

Posted by: emptyboxes | August 13, 2006 10:16 PM

In all honesty here, whatever the truth of the tiny margin between AMLO and Calderon, many of you seem to be writing as if Calderon had won a majority of votes.

May I remind you that at best he received barely a third of the vote. At best.

This is no sweeping mandate suggesting the country was rising up against the fearsome Stalinist AMLO who was about to eat your babies and force women to breed with burros and give your vacation homes to dirty Indians.

It's okay, I guess, because it is starting to look like you're going to have to deal with AMLO and a highly motivated group of activists even if Calderon is in office.

And from the looks of your comments here, I think I will enjoy it.

Posted by: El Cid | August 13, 2006 10:16 PM

I have to also disagree with that post by emptyboxes. As a society we have indeed created the conditions for indigenous people's poverty and we must take steps to correct these conditions. I disagree with how to go about it with AMLO but agree that it has to be down.

rodolfo, I realize the "long comments" post includes me, but it must be said that, at some point, you have to back up your opinions with data, otherwise we become the PRD. For example, why does the PRD conveniently omit the fact that at two different points they initiated procedures that ended up with the opening of electoral packages? Particularly, when asking he IFE for information they lacked (like the actas, when their representative failed to show up) and when challenging the results of all those stations (since the TEPJF had to order the opening of the packages and extraction of things like the nominal list of voters). Now they just make blanket statements about open packages and missing envelopes, give impressive sounding numbers but always fail to account for their own role in those numbers. Only facts and the tribunal's confirmation of these facts plus the correction of the small amount of real problems will ever clear up this mess.

Posted by: Ariel R. Orellana | August 13, 2006 10:33 PM

Emptyboxes, I am not implying anyone is 'mentally challenged' (though Maya0 sometimes writes as if she were) or that federal money is the solution (remember about correct incentives), just please dont say the poor are poor because they are lazy, it misrepresents our social realities and is particularly offensive. Cid, AMLO is not a Stalinist, but certainly someone with fascist-populist characteristics.

Posted by: mex | August 13, 2006 10:34 PM

I'm pretty used to the long-winded, comically inaccurate or irrelevant comments by emptyboxes. The newcomer rodolfo tops ignorance with arrogance. As Freud suggested (and for the record, I'm not a Freud fan), there is no need of too many words to show a little of the true self. The mention of the "Nopaltitlan de las Flores Post" speaks volumes about exquisite bigotry...

It's very funny how these chattering followers of the party of the right and some intentional or unintentional associates turn up the volume of their babble when things are not going their way. I told it before: If you are so sure of the final outcome of the election, why you keep reliving it? We are in the calification stage. The voting stage ended more than six week ago. The evidence is there, for whomever wants to see it. The judges have a historical opportunity of righting a wrong. Even if they lack the stature to do so, this movement is only begining...

Posted by: pasilla | August 13, 2006 10:49 PM

I feel no sorry for indigenous Mexicans nor guilty about the state of many of them.
I do feel angry when I see these artists and singers going to Chiapas and producing their video musicals there portraying them as sorry human beings, Mana and other Mexican singers and groups have become experts at exploiting this image of a sorry and miserably poor human being who cannot do anything at all to get out of poverty and who lives in a sorry miserable house, I feel angry everytime I hear voices of pseudo-intellectuals who go to these places in Oaxaca and Chiapas to buy their handcrafts for a misery of money and take the photo putting the family kiss on their cheeks. They hang their indigenous handcrafts in their beautiful living rooms and show them off to their friends.
Part of the solution to this problem is to start treating these people for what they really are: They are Mexicans and they are entitled to all the liberties and responsibilities as I and you and anyone else in this country. Somebody needs to tell these people there is no more Tata, no more messiah to come and save their sorry asses. It is up to them and only they can change their living conditions.
Am I suppose to entitle them or what?

Posted by: emptyboxes | August 13, 2006 10:58 PM

Pasilla, the judges have acted correctly, even generously for the PRD. There is no evidence at all of fraud (the desafuero, though debatable to say the least, does not by logical imperative lead to fraud, so there is need for proof for the present case). The situation is this: it is said that one of the parties in a dispute (electoral in this case) feels aggrieved, and so a full recount should be done to ease its this aggrievance. The problem is that it is precisely this pary in the dispute who invented the aggrievance. It is therefore absurd, even perverse, to violent a very solid institutional arrangement (IFE, Trife, citizen counting, etc.), which has worked impeccably for more than a decade, so that this party is appeased, when in the first place it invented the claim of fraud. Absolute nonsense. And you can join your nascent Revolution, it will soon end in irrelevance, like Marcos, though unfortunately after confusing some and being a pain on many others. The outcome is certain, no need to argue anymore about that.

Posted by: mex | August 13, 2006 11:01 PM

Morticia Sheinbaum has just appeared in Denise Maerker's show pontificating about more numbers, percentages and FRAUD. In one of the show's segments a casilla president was interviewed because 80 votes for PBT were allotted to PANAL. Sheinbaum called it part of the FRAUD and his comeback was: ALL parties present signed off on the mistaken numbers. Human mistake or fraud, I believe the poor guy and the unwtting fellow mistaken tally co-signees acted in good faith. You and I can see that, but not the good people of PBT.

Posted by: rodolfo | August 13, 2006 11:01 PM

"I'm pretty used to the long-winded, comically inaccurate or irrelevant comments by emptyboxes."
Pasilla:
Seems to me like you really enjoy reading my posts. Thanks, it's nice to have a friend.

I have some other ones I posted a while ago, maybe you would like to read them. Here I repeat one:

"Hi I am a PRD Follower living in the USA. I hate this country so much with all my hearth and I wish it will be completely destroyed soon.
I moved to Texas and I live here with all my family I have a good job, I am very smart because these stupid americans give me a good job and very good salary and the stupid dogs don't know I am communist and I hate them. I am so smart! I have purchased a house here and I even have a Ford Lobo, is red and very nice and when I go to DF and show off with all my friends there.

I would like AMLO to be the president, I know he really won, He never lies, those panistas are a bunch of liers.

You see, AMLO has a special gift, he talks to the people directly, that is why we don't need these stupid election systems in Mexico, just go to the Asamblea Informativa and AMLO and the people there will decide.

I hate America so much. I would like Osama Bin Laden to attack them again, just don't attack Texas because I don't want to lose my job.

I love Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez and Stalin and one of my best heroes is Mao from China. These are real heroes of the world, not like washington and these stupid people of this country.

I hope AMLO can impose himself and be the president and stay in power like Fidel Castro, for about 50 years or so, that is real democracy.

Oh I hate these americans they are so dumb, I am very smart because they don't know I am pro castro and pro osama and I support AMLO, and they gave me the opportunity to work here and to bring my family and to get my papers, when I came crossing the rio grande they helped me. They are so dumb and I am so smart.

Viva AMLO! Viva Osama bin Laden! Viva Fidel Castro! Viva Iran! Viva Hisbollah! Mueran USA! Mueran Israel! Vote by Vote!"

I hope you enjoyed this one.

Posted by: emptyboxes | August 13, 2006 11:05 PM

emptyboxes:

There is very little else to read in this queue, besides your rantings. If you attempted to be a comedian, you would quickly join the masses of the poor. Enjoy your preaching to the choir...

Posted by: pasilla | August 13, 2006 11:34 PM

pasilla, it moves me that your exquisiteness has been offended with some innocent banter. In future, do not patronize me with your politically correct sanctimonious condescension. Humorless bores are supposed to pontificate and generalize and never refer to philistines like moi as worthy of attention, we are beneath you, astounded by your lead-footed imagination. If my humor offended you, tough luck, I'm not apologising.

Posted by: rodolfo | August 13, 2006 11:51 PM

Viva AMLO! Viva Osama bin Laden! Viva Fidel Castro! Viva Iran! Viva Hisbollah! Mueran USA! Mueran Israel! Vote by Vote!"

I hope you enjoyed this one.

Posted by: emptyboxes | August 13, 2006 11:05 PM
------------------------------

Ha! That was so cute emptyboxes! I hope this is just joking, so that you do not really think like this and wet your bed every night thinking that Osama and AMLO are going to touch you in your private places.

Posted by: El Cid | August 14, 2006 12:03 AM

By the way, for those curious as to why I brought up the question of the Indigenous Communities, here is available the INEGI report in PDF format commemorating the United Nations' International Day of Indigenous Populations, which was the 9th of August, and that is why Vicente Fox suddenly spoke of the matter.

There are many facts and statistics within.

http://www.inegi.gob.mx/lib/predescarga.asp?pag=/inegi/contenidos/espanol/prensa/contenidos/estadisticas/2006/indigenas06.pdf&s=inegi&c=1598

Posted by: El Cid | August 14, 2006 12:32 AM

emptyboxes, I totally agree with you that hard work is the only way out of poverty, but I think you went out of hand with your comment about our indians. It is impossible to come out of poverty when you don't have anything to eator to wear, when you live in a hut with no water or electricity or when you have to travel an hour or two hours to your local school. Indians are the most vulnerable population in our country, often discriminated (some of them have been sent to psychiatric hospitals because they think they mentally retarded when their only sin was not to speak spanish). The government does need to protect them (not give them charity). Plus, I think there is a historic debt of the mexican State with them that we should make up for. The government have done some good stuff for them like publishing SEP's free books in every indian language, even for those communities of less that 20 members but is is definetely not enough.

El Cid, I disagree with you that FDR saved the south part of the States with federal money. The debacle of the south was a contant since the civil war and its recovery wasn't really because of FDR but of the general structure and culture of the american economical model. I love FDR, he and Clinton our my favorite american presidents, but the success of FDR's economical model was due to a very specific moment of the world's biggest economy. I don't think it would have been as successful as it was in a different time, in a different context.

Back to our topic, AMLO has declared now that the "megaplantón" would stay there for years depending of the situation and the he would give the Grito de Independencia in the Zocalo and hold a meeting the next day at the same place. Oh, and the president can give his Grito in Dolores, Hidalgo.

Really, I have had it... He's done with my patience. You know? As annoying as the plantón was, I tolerated it since the process isn't over, there was some room for AMLO to prove his theories, the recount was on the making blah, blah, blah. But the "fraud" is far from being a reality, there seems to be no indications of an annulment of the whole process and the decision of the TEPFJ is quite predictable now. If by september the 6th we already have an elected president then there is absolutely no point for the "megaplantón". And, if they keep with the idea of staying there, then it is moment to inforce the law. They keep talking about the "imposition". The only imposition I see is that AMLO wants to do the Grito in the Zocalo instead of the president of the country that, whether we like him or not, is Vicente Fox Quesada. The imposition is that the only way to cross Reforma is by screaming like a maniac "voto por voto, casilla por casilla". I'm not against them expressing their ideas but why, why, why can't they do it without affecting anyone else who doesn't agree with them (that by the way is the real majority)?

Finally, maya0, please if you're going to keep posting like that, then save it darling. You're like Mr. Pro Vida, Jorge Serrano Limón but on the other side of the spectrum. Just as pointless to discuss with him as it is to discuss with you.

Posted by: bunburina | August 14, 2006 01:39 AM

rodolfo:

H2SO4

Is that short and acidic enough?

Posted by: | August 14, 2006 01:51 AM

El Cid | August 13, 2006 09:11 PM

You´re just full of it, aren´t you

Posted by: | August 14, 2006 02:50 AM

I certainly believe that the planton will go away as soon as TRIFE declares Felipe President. The recount achieved two things, it comfirmed what the mayority of Mexicans believed: that the election was clean despite little errors that are natural considering the votes are counted by the people. And the second thing the recount achieved was to push moderate leftists farter away from AMLO and his radicals.
The confirmation of Felipe Calderon, will render the power of AMLO obsolete and it will free many people from the incredible pressure they have been up to. The power will shift to Marcelo and Jesus Ortega and they will the ones to decide. I believe Ortega will have Cuahuctemoc back into the PRD. Ortega has the most congressmen and sentators and has also many of his people at the local DF assembly.

Posted by: emptyboxes | August 14, 2006 06:59 AM

El Cid, I disagree with you that FDR saved the south part of the States with federal money. The debacle of the south was a contant since the civil war and its recovery wasn't really because of FDR but of the general structure and culture of the american economical model. I love FDR, he and Clinton our my favorite american presidents, but the success of FDR's economical model was due to a very specific moment of the world's biggest economy. I don't think it would have been as successful as it was in a different time, in a different context.
-------------------------
Posted by: bunburina | August 14, 2006 01:39 AM

That's fine that you feel that way, but I have not yet encountered a serious historian or social scientist of the modern American South who disagrees with what I wrote, simply that federal spending under FDR (and certainly other state leaders) brought the American South from bleak underdevelopment to modernization. (Although a number of them might argue that FDR did things for political or selfish reasons or that the effects were bad in the long term.)

I would suggest one flexible rule to keep in mind: be very careful with advice from the developed nations to the developing nations when they tell you that you should be doing things which they did not do, or that you should not be doing things which they did.

To anonymous:
Yes, I am full of many things.

Posted by: El Cid | August 14, 2006 08:19 AM

The comments on this page are "site-speciffic", or should be. If anyone wishes to expound on ANYTHING ELSE, the blogosphere is an infinite arena. I would be grateful if your comments were about the 2006 mexican presidential election. Please save your social engineering theories, pipe dreams and other unrelated subjects for some other blog in the internet.

Posted by: rodolfo | August 14, 2006 08:54 AM

rodolfo:

Who, I wonder, has appointed you moderator of this exchange? I would be grafetul if you keep your imperialistic manners at home. Both Maximilian and Iturbide were not very successful in their empires, neither will you (or Felipe I, for that matter)...

Posted by: pasilla | August 14, 2006 09:15 AM

Bunburina,Carnal Marcelo is being delivered a very hot potato. Plantonistas have a plan on staying, indefinetely. The city's government has no shame and as unilaterally as it was decided to allow the reforma-zocalo invasion, it can as easily cancel it. Authoritarians are shameless in that fashion. Encinas has evolved from a responsible public servant to Lopez's lap dog. When Marcelo becomes mayor, is he going to dance to the Lopez tune or chase away the RayOfHope acolytes with a big stick. Interesting... What's your guess.

Posted by: rodolfo | August 14, 2006 09:23 AM

Have you considered offering your sharp strategic advice to PRD? Of cours if I were you I would start by learning who's in and who's out. You have anticipated the political demise of AMLO, with more or less stridency, basically since the beginning of the movent; ain't happened yet. Also, you (and other) have included Manuel Camacho (as far as I know, still from CD) in the PRD, and excluded Cuauhtemoc Cardenas from the PRD (as far as I hnow, still a member). You are the same that no far ago suggested that Calderon will have the tools for removing Marcelo Ebrard out of the way; I guess you have now forgiven him and anointed him the rational sould of PRD, with... Jesus Ortega. Quite an interesting display of bipolarity...

Posted by: emptyboxes | August 14, 2006 09:29 AM

Oooops!

That one was FOR emtyboxes, not FROM him...

Posted by: pasilla | August 14, 2006 09:36 AM

pasilla,

I thought you were done with this queue. Welcome back, just tell us what you think, and keep your poison in the field of ideas and not make it personal. You are becoming transparent.

Posted by: rodolfo | August 14, 2006 09:45 AM

rodolfo:

You'd wish... Are you a guardian of one or three heads? Of course I'll minister my poison everywhere, don't worry about it. I'm glad that I'm becoming transparent: if I interpret that correctly, that means that I express myself clearly. Much, much better than being obscure, or worse, invisible...

Posted by: pasilla | August 14, 2006 10:04 AM

pasilla,

I'm not the self-appointed moderator of this page.
I AM THE PRESIDENT, I AM THE PEOPLE'S RAYOFHOPE, MY MOVEMENT IS GHANDI'S, M.L.KING'S, CHRIST'S MOVEMENT. I AM THE PRESIDENT OF THIS BLOG, OF THIS W.POST, OF THIS INTERNET!!!
I will not leave until a vote by vote, blog by blog recount is made and I am declared PRESIDENT, the People's President, of course. I am a democrat, so you can call me The People's President, wether you like it or not. I say so.

Posted by: rodolfo | August 14, 2006 10:11 AM

The comments on this page are "site-speciffic", or should be. If anyone wishes to expound on ANYTHING ELSE, the blogosphere is an infinite arena. I would be grateful if your comments were about the 2006 mexican presidential election. Please save your social engineering theories, pipe dreams and other unrelated subjects for some other blog in the internet.

Posted by: rodolfo | August 14, 2006 08:54 AM
------------------------
ATTN Rodolfo:

(1) You are no moderator;
(2) No one cares if you can't understand the relevance of models of economic development theory in the international arena, but please assume the role of working on your own lack of knowledge and understanding in private;
(3) I will consider reducing comments which have some component outside the arena of the Mexico 2006 elections when the panicky Calderito posters here stop mentioning Hugo Chavez, Fidel Castro, Josef Stalin, Osama bin Laden, and Hezbollah.

Posted by: El Cid | August 14, 2006 10:12 AM

"I told it before: If you are so sure of the final outcome of the election, why you keep reliving it?"

Uuuuu... because AMLO doesn't let it go? What now, are we supposed to just sit and let him rant and rave all he wants, block streets, challenge institutions without voicing our opinions and pointing to the facts? If he'll stop the blockades and circunsribe his protests to media, assemblies that do not interfere with other people's lives and legal challenges then we'll drop it, but in this case he's got to stop first.

In regards to the judges... AMLO is the one with the burden of proof and he has not achieved that so far, from what the judges have ruled. Still a long way to go, but my read is that Bloques Obrador KNOWS he has lost from what transpired during the recount, why else talk about protesting on Independence day? He would have been declared winner by then if he's right, correct?

Posted by: Ariel R. Orellana | August 14, 2006 10:15 AM

Pasilla:
"You have anticipated the political demise of AMLO, with more or less stridency, basically since the beginning of the movent; ain't happened yet."

AMLO is still there at the zocalo with a bunch of people in a planton and blocking Paseo de la Reforma and everybody complaining, insulting Camacho Solis at taco stands and sauna places, the people of DF feeling disgusted while the PRD tries to explain them their actions. If they have the support then why is AMLO asking for apologies and understanding for his blockade?
Do you call that Political success?

The TRIFE turned down his demand of a total recount.
AMLO's demise ain't happened yet?

The partial recount that was suppose to show ballot stuffing only confirmed IFE results with some very, very, very small changes totaling a loss of some 2000 votes for Felipe and a gain of 200 votes for AMLO, all this out of a universe of some 4 million votes.
AMLO's demise ain't happened yet?

The last time I checked Felipe Calderon was still the winner of the election and nothing has happened so far that will indicate the oppossite.
AMLO's demise ain't happened yet?

And the last time I checked the winner in congress and the senate was also PAN.
AMLO's demise ain't happened yet?

Seems to me than Felipe Calderon will take power, congress will pass his reforms, the country will continue moving forward. Christmas will come but
AMLO's demise ain't happened yet. In your mind it won't happen.

And now that AMLO went running to Chiapas we will see this sunday how PRD will lose the Governor election there.
This is the begining of a long night for the PRD and I will be surprised if they recover soon from this and I tell you Pasilla I feel sorry for that because as much as I dislike them I recognize we in Mexico need a strong leftist party to have a real checks and balances system. I find no benefit in PRD losing positions. I am a pragmatical person and I do not believe in the center this and center that of the rights and lefts of this world, the center has never existed, there are rights and lefts and the coexistance of both produces a healthy and democratical balance.

Posted by: emptyboxes | August 14, 2006 10:16 AM

pasilla,

this is an english language site. Transparent in simple english means obvious, predictable. That's what I meant, don't flatter yourself.

Posted by: rodolfo | August 14, 2006 10:38 AM

I'm not the self-appointed moderator of this page.
I AM THE PRESIDENT, I AM THE PEOPLE'S RAYOFHOPE, MY MOVEMENT IS GHANDI'S, M.L.KING'S, CHRIST'S MOVEMENT. I AM THE PRESIDENT OF THIS BLOG, OF THIS W.POST, OF THIS INTERNET!!!
I will not leave until a vote by vote, blog by blog recount is made and I am declared PRESIDENT, the People's President, of course. I am a democrat, so you can call me The People's President, wether you like it or not. I say so.

Posted by: rodolfo | August 14, 2006 10:11 AM
----------------------

I have to admit that was actually very funny. Good, dry wit, which is nice on here

Posted by: El Cid | August 14, 2006 11:02 AM

This morning Julio Hernandez was at El Cristal Con Que Se Mira and he asked Trujillo about showing some video that allegedly shows some illegal activities from IFE at one of the district warehouses.
The video showed a perfectly calm people working in a location full of electoral packages, they were young people, those taking video were allowed to come in and tape, although Julio Hernandez said that they were expulsed from the site, the video never showed that. Another Salamanca video.
Nothing in the video showed anything illegal. Of course there was no sound, apparently the PRD and La Jornada prefer to take the sound out of their videos.
There was a representative from the PRD during all the process and the whole thing was carried out under the vigilance of the army and in broad daylight.

What kind of disgusting people are these that are willing to show false videos and to fabricate evidences like this one?
Shame on Trujillo for showing such false evidences and playing the game of the PRD and their lame supporter from la jornada.

Posted by: emptyboxes | August 14, 2006 11:04 AM

Pasilla: What kind of cynical people allow this kind of fabrications of evidences showing on National Television videos that were taking in all freedom of an open and clearly legal procedure from IFE carried out in broad daylight and in the presence of representatives of all political parties including the one from the PRD.

Posted by: emptyboxes | August 14, 2006 11:08 AM

Orellana,
you have a point. We can't allow
one side to dictate the agenda and the rest of us pretend we like the smell of that manure. PBT lost the presidential election, DEAL WITH IT, lopistas. Enough of your BS mumbo jumbo.

Posted by: rodolfo | August 14, 2006 11:18 AM

Dropping back here now and then I see the arguments continue. I think we will all have more to say after there is some final judgment from the tribunal. Time is running out.

As for the Stalinist siege of Mexico, DF, Sarmiento has a good bit of observation in today's column--


El gobierno del Distrito Federal llegó a un acuerdo con los hoteleros del Distrito Federal para condonar los impuestos capitalinos (no los federales) que pagan los hoteles del corredor turístico del Paseo de la Reforma y el Centro Histórico. Esta condonación de impuestos es una forma de compensar las pérdidas que estos negocios están registrando por el bloqueo que el mismo gobierno promueve en esa zona. No ha habido ningún acuerdo, sin embargo, para compensar a la gente pequeña -a los taxistas, meseros y tantos más- que han perdido sus ingresos como consecuencia del plantón. Para el bien de todos, primero los ricos.

-- For those who don't read Spanish-- he basically notes how the PRD government of DF worked out a tax holiday for the hotels, but has done nothing for the taxi drivers and other "small" people who have lost their livelihood because of the obnoxious tactics of the PRD.

Posted by: Goyo | August 14, 2006 11:26 AM

El Cid, thank you for your sense of humor.Just trying to keep things light and lively. Thanks again for your compliment.

Posted by: rodolfo | August 14, 2006 11:27 AM

CECI CONOLLY HAS OPENED A NEW BLOG ENTRY. SHOULD WE CONTINUE THIS PARTY THERE?

Posted by: rodolfo | August 14, 2006 11:42 AM

rodolfo

"this is an english language site. Transparent in simple english means obvious, predictable. That's what I meant, don't flatter yourself."

Actually it doesn´t. Try Google, or, if you like, an old fashioned dictionary. Please refer me to a definition (not your own) of transparent meaning obvious or predictable.

Posted by: PeterN | August 14, 2006 11:43 AM

emptyboxes:

The Redskins and the Nats lost yesterday... Another proof of AMLO political demise?

You didn't see anything in the video, just people enjoying themselves. Well, without having seen the video myself, I reckon that maybe you inadvertently changed channels. Weren't you watching the Travel Channel?

Why don't you make an effort for once, try to be objective and attempt to describe what the video showed? Did it show open, "empty boxes"? You seem very fond of those. Did you see any? An error commited by PAN followers is to believe and repeat only the PAN line. The important issue now is not the tallies per se, but if the findings constitute cause for polling station annulments. It's in the hands of the court. One thing that also became apparent during the recount, but which wasn't mentioned by any PAN follower, because it goes against the "infallibility" of the IFE, is the fact that at least in a few polling station packages should had been open since the district talling, due to obvious irregularities. But you may recall the infamous memo from Mr. Ugalde, instructing local IFE councilmen to minimize the opening of the packages and avoid vote recounting. Why? My twisted mind says that they were (and still are) avoiding to get any near to the magic number of 20% of ballotting places annuled, which will be cause of full election annulment.

Ariel Orellana:

One of your beloved "institutions" (I'm not sure since when "institutions" are always sacred; I guess it's a religios thing...), TRIFE, has not ruled on the recount. Therefore, your speculation is as good as mine (not as colorful like emptyboxes, though...)

rodolfo:

you seem extremely concerned about the "purity" of English; I wonder if also of the "purity" of races... I love English plasticity, and the human race.

By the way, I'm not sure where you found that transparent means the same than predictable or obvious; pretty synonyms in my dictionary are diaphanous, clear, candid. Of course, my dictionary may be issued by PRD.

Posted by: pasilla | August 14, 2006 11:55 AM

Thanks, PeterN!

Posted by: pasilla | August 14, 2006 11:55 AM

was it a sign of sore loosers when in 1988 the PAN's Clouthier called for a recount of state election. he was the one to come up with the chant "Voto por Voto, Casilla por Cassilla." It has only been 18 years since that electoral theft. It is hard for me to imagine that Mexican political culture has changed all that much. Apparently about a third of the Mexican electorate feels the same. The important thing to remember is that it does not matter if a fraud actually occurred but if there is a perception (by a large portion of the electorate) of fraud. If there is this perception amoung a significant portion of the Mexican electorate then Calderon's (assuming he is the eventual winner) Legitimacy is in question. No matter how this election turns out it does not bode well for Mexico.

Posted by: longtimemexicanobserver | August 14, 2006 12:29 PM

PeterN,
let me help you with TRANSPARENT: guiless, crystal clear, pellucid, dyaphanous, filmy, gauzy, gossamer, see through (this applies to my comment on pasilla) sheer, vaporous, cobwebby, easily seen through (because a lack of subtlety)WHICH IS PRECISELY WHAT I MEANT. One final helping from my dictionary: a transparent lie. I don't think pasilla's vapourous arguments are a lie, but I have no doubt they definitely lack subtlety, they are heavy on the guile.

Posted by: rodolfo | August 14, 2006 12:35 PM

longtimemexicanobserver,

Mexico 2006 elections are in no way like the 1988 elections. The voting was carried out by the citizenry, the vote counting was done by the same ordinary people, with no party affiliation or even a salary. It was witnessed by all the parties in contention and hundreds of foreign and NGO observers were also present. Of the five parties in contention only PBT cried wolf, with a twist. The PBT candidates for representatives, senators, governors and D.F. mayor aren't complaining. Only Lopez and his maffia are screaming "fraud" to anyone who"ll listen. Go figure.

Posted by: rodolfo | August 14, 2006 12:53 PM

"Transparent in simple english means obvious, predictable."

Thanks for the free thesaurus rodolfo, still haven´t seen the definition as used by yourself.

I may disagree with pasilla on many issues raised in this (and previous, go back and check, johnny come lately) comment sections, but we are trying to use the english language correctly. Otherwise we´ll end up like Maya0 and end up having our revolution in Monaco.

Posted by: PeterN | August 14, 2006 01:19 PM

PeterN,

go to dictionary.com and type "transparent". Under definition 4 of the American Heritage Dictionary you will find the synonym that applies to my use of the word. Scroll down and more synonyms appear from Webster's dictionary.

Posted by: rodolfo | August 14, 2006 01:34 PM

rodolfo, yes it can mean "obvious" when combined with another word, such as your example "Transparent lies", although that would not be the most correct way to read that term. More correct would be "Easily seen through lies", which would then bring you back to the correct definition of the word, as also given in your link.

The word transparent does not mean obvious by itself. Where did you learn English?

pasilla, bet you never thought a capitalist like me would stick his (cyber) neck out for you!

Posted by: PeterN | August 14, 2006 02:03 PM

PeterN,
You are right, as I phrased it, the literay image is incomplete therefore, gramatically wrong. I should have written "Your arguments are becoming transparent, pasilla". On the subject of English, does anybody ever rally learn English? But then go and correct Ezra Pound or Walt Whitman, not an oddball like me. Bloviating is my expertise, at Your Excellency's service.

Posted by: rodolfo | August 14, 2006 02:28 PM

On the contrary, PeterN; we may disagree, but I believe that we are both attempting to find the truth, through argument, not through dogma. Not too many like you on the other side, unfortunately.

Posted by: pasilla | August 14, 2006 02:32 PM

rodolfo,

On the subject of English, see if you can find any of Maya0s rants. It´s worth the time just for the accidental humour in them, especially the one about Mel Gibson!

I think this section is over, we´re moving to "From The Post: Years of Protest?" See you there.

Posted by: PeterN | August 14, 2006 02:45 PM

Pasilla, the TEPJF, not the TRIFE, as you probably know, has already ruled on several things and that is what I was talking about. I'm fighting a tremendous urge to be sarcastic here, I hope it doesn't seep through:

- The Coalicion wanted a total recount, based on vaporous claims, ruling: denied
- The Coalicion only challenged about half the stations, wanting them recounted, ruling: less than a 5th of those actually have evidence that led to them being examined in full detail.

We could break it down into hundreds of individual rulings, of course. BTW, I have not talked about my "beloved institutions" but, at any rate, I think its much better to distrust those institutions but to abide by their decisions even when we lose, not only when we win, as your "historic opportunity" comment would seem to indicate. If you do not like the result then get your congressman to introduce laws to change the way the system works (oh wait, you're not here, you don't have a Mexican congressman to represent you).

Posted by: Ariel R. Orellana | August 14, 2006 02:56 PM

Ariel Orellana:

Seems that we're getting punctilious over here. Don't fight your demons, let them be. Is the qualification of the election over? No, it's not. We know what the "Tribunal Federal Electoral del Poder Judicial de la Federacion" (I hope you like it better; BTW, they call themselves TRIFE in her website; funny, isn't it?). Can you tell me who, until know, is not abiding by what rules? It would be nice to know.

Regarding my residency... I fail to appreciate the subtlety of your comment: "If you do not like the result then get your congressman to introduce laws to change the way the system works (oh wait, you're not here, you don't have a Mexican congressman to represent you)."

Unfortunately perhaps for you, the Mexican Congress has decided that I'm still Mexican, even if living abroad. Even if I were not... Are yo suggesting that I should not talk about what I care because I don't live in Mexico? It's beyond me...

Posted by: pasilla | August 14, 2006 04:55 PM

"Is the qualification of the election over? No, it's not." Um? So? My original comment was about how AMLO has failed to demonstrate his allegations in the fulings made SO FAR.

"Can you tell me who, until know, is not abiding by what rules? It would be nice to know." Um... AMLO? You know, breaking the his own "bando 13", breaking the constitutional right of others to transit without impedement? Hell, Encinas acknowledges this is happening, he just tries to shift blame to the federal goverment for not doing anything about it.

Finally, even if you are Mexican (and I acknowledge that you are) and you definitely care (as you probably should), I believe you are in political limbo, you can't vote for a congressman or senator so you don't have one to represent you, if I understand the electoral law. It was an undeserved jab, however, so I apologize.

Posted by: Ariel R. Orellana | August 14, 2006 05:35 PM

Ariel Orellana:

If PRD failed to prove their allegations, why was a recount ordered in the first place?

Regarding Bando 13... PAN conveniently forgets that they challenged "Bandos" in court, and won. The Supreme Court declared "Bandos" government intentions, not legally binding. Typical behavior: attempting to eat the cake, but keeping it untouched.

Posted by: pasilla | August 14, 2006 06:32 PM

"If PRD failed to prove their allegations, why was a recount ordered in the first place?"

You're missing the point pasilla, they've already failed to demonstrate their allegations in 91% of the stations. Additionally, those casillas are being open in order to determine if the allegations are true, not because they're true. Small distinction, but an important one.

Posted by: Ariel R. Orellana | August 15, 2006 12:21 AM

No jobs, no education, no future, no hope, no country.

Calderon to the rescue (of the oligarchy)!!

August 15, 2006
Census Shows Growth of Immigrants
By RICK LYMAN
The number of immigrants living in American households rose 16 percent over the last five years, fueled largely by recent arrivals from Mexico, according to fresh data released by the Census Bureau.

And increasingly, immigrants are bypassing the traditional gateway states like California and New York and settling directly in parts of the country that until recently saw little immigrant activity -- regions like the Upper Midwest, New England and the Rocky Mountain States.

Posted by: Calderon | August 15, 2006 08:48 AM

Calderon,

If you want the oligarchy to end, tell Lopez to get more votes, if he's able and if he can. He won't win by whining.

Posted by: rodolfo | August 15, 2006 10:09 AM

The problem with AMLO is his illness, he is a very sick man, he suffers of "ezquizofrencyk demand of power" all for me or else. I'm the mesiah, I'm the light, I'm the joy...take me or die you infidel son of a PAN

Posted by: hbgoldie | August 15, 2006 09:55 PM

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