From The Post

Mexico's special electoral court unanimously declared Felipe Calderón president-elect of Mexico in a decision that resolved the legal battle but did not end the political crisis. Presidential runner-up Andrés Manuel López Obrador said he would create an "alternate government," calling Calderón an "illegitimate president."

Speaking moments later, Calderón called for conciliation, saying, "Mexicans can think differently, but we are not enemies." He declared that "the electoral process is over and the hour has arrived for unity." The dueling speeches were tracked minutely by Mexicans both puzzled and fascinated by the prospect of two men simultaneously claiming to lead the nation.

Read the full story from The Post's Manuel Roig-Franzia.

By washingtonpost.com |  September 6, 2006; 9:22 AM ET  | Category:  From The Post
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In following the posts to previous discussions, I have noted with interest that those who favor Lopez Obrador critize the Washington Post as conservative lackeys of the wealthy and Beltline toadies, whereas the Calderon supporters express displeasure at The Post's leftist slant.

The Post ran a series of articles a month or so back on how partisan are our thought processes are. Maybe you ought to post a link to those articles here.

That being said, when you report the PRD's strong presence in the Mexican legislative bodies, you might also point out that PAN has a much greater number of legislators. What little I've been able to make out about the process of determining who gets what appointments and duties within the legislative bodies, it seems that PAN has gathered sufficient support from other parties to effectively backbench the PRD up to this point.

Posted by: Furnifold | September 6, 2006 10:31 AM

TEPJF; la elecion no fue limpia, pero vale.
translation
Electoral court; the election wasnt clean, but its valid


That pretty much sums it all up.

Posted by: Maya0 | September 6, 2006 12:00 PM

You're right, maya0. The President, the Entrepreneurial Coordinating Council violated electoral law... but just a little bit.

Posted by: pasilla | September 6, 2006 12:34 PM

What is most ironic about ALMO's claims of electoral fraud is that his party got its best-ever showing in the legislature. So the fraud was only against him personally, and not against his party? Come on. His claims of fraud are self-contradictory and self-serving. International monitors praised the election of July 2 for its transparency and fairness. His wild claims of fraud are undermining the institutions, established by Fox's predecessor and carefully nurtured by the Fox government for the last six years, that have made fair elections possible.

Posted by: An observer | September 6, 2006 12:36 PM

A recount wasnt allowed, only a partial one, then the whole thing went to the courts, and then the court delcared a president.

Am I not writing about Mexico, but what happen in USA 2000 elections.

But AMLO is no Gore, hes not going away, nor are his supporters.

"Se que los ricos y los poderosos ni sienten ni procuran las desgracias de los pobres"
"Los Mexicanos en ves de doblarse deben redoulblar sus esfuerzos para liberase de sus tiranos. Asi seran dignos de ser libres y respetables, porque asi deberan su gloria a sus propios esfuerzos."
Benito Juarez
translation
"I know that the rich and the powerfull, neither feel nor care about the disgraces of the poor"
"Mexicans, instead of bowing down, should redouble their efforts to liberate themselves of their tyrants. That way dignifing themselves to be free and respected, because they would owe their glory to their own efforts."
Benito Jurazez

Oaxaca is rising.......


Posted by: maya0 | September 6, 2006 12:51 PM

pasilla, maya, while I do acknowledge troubling issues in the ruling, it has to be said that the fraud part of the ruling is not in doubt, there was no "well, there was a little fraud here and there but not enough". What I'm driving at is that the only part of AMLO's arguments, the PREP, the IFE, Ugalde, Fox, CCE, fraud, etc, etc, etc that was not dismissed outright (or corrected, like in the case of anulled stations) were those 2: Fox and CCE. That's a pretty bad batting %

Posted by: Ariel R. Orellana | September 6, 2006 03:42 PM

pasilla,

The election contests are called CAMPAIGNS as in war campaigns. Ever hear the frase "politics is a continuation of war by other means".

You lost this one because the other guy used anything and everything to win, short of murder and rape. Let's not be prissy about tactics and strategies.

Lopez waged an apallingly illegal 4 year plus campaign free of charge, courtesy his early morning press conferences, day in day out for more than 4 years. His little rooster's feathers, his wagging finger, his nation-wide self love advertising about the "City of Hope" and HIS titanic public works.

The guy is a pathetic weasel and a shameless manipulator. He's no Gandhi, more like a snake oil salesman.

Now he talks of becoming People's COMMISSAR! Is this major B.S. or what.

Posted by: rodolfo | September 6, 2006 04:29 PM

I posted this on the past blog, I'll post it in here again.

All you guys are complaining about the TRIFE's acknowledgement of irrgularities like Fox's intervention and and the spots by the CCE. The TRIFE didn't consider them determining on the election for one reason alone: the TRIFE trusts in the voters' freedom and intelligence.

You all pro-AMLO supporters think that people is retarded, right? That some spots on tv are going to change their intention to vote. That if Maribel Guardia in her TV show says she's going to vote for Calderón a lot of dumb sheep is going to follow. That if president Fox say that everything is wonderful in Mexico, 4 million brainless people is going to buy it.

The TRIFE believes, and I'm with them on this, that people is smart, they have thought their vote, they made a decision and no one put a gun to their head to make them vote for Felipe Calderón. There was no fraud. Simply, 200 000 people liked Calderón better than AMLO and in a democracy elections are won by one single vote. Would you like to know where are all those votes AMLO supposedly "lost" on July 2? Why don't you check out on the PASC where a lof ot modern and moderate leftist (myself included), tired of AMLO's anarchic antics, set their hopes for the future.

AMLO is the one who failed to convince people. AMLO is the one that failed to develop a better political campaign, the one who chose not to be at the first debate. AMLO is the only one responsible for his party's loss. Stop blaming it on anything that moves.

Posted by: bunburina | September 6, 2006 05:09 PM

Obrador's antics buried the left for at least a generation. As a conservative, this was fun to watch, even if it wasn't my country. I do feel sorry for the Mexican people because they had to learn the hard way that the left cares only about getting more power.

Posted by: Keith | September 6, 2006 05:58 PM

In this case, Keith, it wasn't necessarily the left, just faux left fascism based on a personality cult. A forward thinking left will have nothing to do with a soviet-era ideology, such as AMLO's. Have you seen the Stalin/Lenin/Castro, etc. photos in the zócalo? That's not a coincidence.

Posted by: K. Vronna | September 6, 2006 06:17 PM

Keith,

If you read the ranting of other Campaign Conexion Ceci blog postings, we Mexicans also had a lot of fun. Politics in Mexico haven't been this fun since the end of the revolution in the early 1920s.

What we are all seeing and discussing is democracy as advertised. We had to read about this kind of madness in political battles from other countries.

Mexico is becoming grown-up politically and this is how it looks to us and to outsiders. Remember USA elections 2000?

I don't know if it was fun for you, the rest of the world was mesmerized by your hanging chads and the Court battles.

Posted by: rodolfo | September 6, 2006 06:28 PM

K. Vronna, you are totally NUTS if you are comparing AMLO to Stalin/Lenin/Castro

You are one of those SMART people who did not buy into that cheap PAN propaganda, are you?

I'd better compare Felipe Calderon to Zedillo who was another moron and puppet for the system.

Posted by: FECAL | September 6, 2006 06:34 PM

No, Sr. FECAL, I'm not comparing AMLO to Stalin/Lenin/Castro; after all they did come to rule their respective countries. BTW, is your name a gesture of reconciliation?

Posted by: K. Vronna | September 6, 2006 07:20 PM

K.Vronna,

Mr. poopy is stating the material nature, origin, quality and texture of HIS aspirational aspersions.

Posted by: rodolfo | September 6, 2006 07:33 PM

FECAL: I did buy all the propaganda from the PAN. And AMLO has shown how right the PAN was at labeling him a danger for Mexico.

Just look at the guy speaking in a monologue at his "Informative Assembly". I have never seen an assembly like that one in my life, only AMLO or one of his officers speaks. Nobody in the crowd ever disagrees. It is pathetic. I cannot imagine this lunatic running our country.

Posted by: emptyboxes | September 6, 2006 07:43 PM

So, K. Vronna, if you are not comparing AMLO to Lenin or Stalin... what is your point? Is it OK to show a picture of Marx? How about a movie of Che Guevara, with Gael?

emptyboxes:

Notwithstanding PAN propaganda (that bunburina claims was useless, although very expensive), the TRUE imminent dangers for Mexico are pervasive poverty and income inequality. Nothing you care about, mind you, but the poor are becoming impatient...

Posted by: pailla | September 6, 2006 08:51 PM

Pasilla, if the poor are becoming impatient, why didn't more of them vote for AMLO?

Posted by: Jerry B | September 6, 2006 08:55 PM

Also, Pasilla, not that we would care, of course, but, why are the states ruled by the PRD like Chiapas, Zacatecas and Guerrero poor and getting poorer, while states ruled by the PAN like Baja California or Jalisco are (relatively) rich, and getting richer? Another sign of a massive "complo"?

Posted by: Jerry B | September 6, 2006 08:57 PM

Rodolfo:

I have done something better than hear the phrase: I have read Sun-Tzu. Based on your ideas, I fear the Americanization of Mexican politics, with PAN resorting to paid scoundrels like Dick Morris. I don't want that for my country. On the other hand, are you suggesting that politicians should not built roads, not talk about it, because it can be used for campaign purposes? Interesting logic.

Jerry B:

I don't know why about 200 thousand more poor people didn't vote for AMLO, out of the more than 50 million... Do you? Some of them perhaps don't even understand what voting is all about...

Mexico has continued being poor for the last six years, governed by PAN. After the "complo" to crown Felipe I (that even the TEPJF couldn't summarily dismiss), will it continue being poor?

Posted by: pasilla | September 6, 2006 09:14 PM

FUNNY PAPERS:

http://www.cnd.org.mx/

Posted by: rodolfo | September 6, 2006 10:00 PM

pasilla,

The real scoundrel is Mr. Lopez. He lost, he had a fit and won't back down. He is a sorry loser that won't concede or shut up.

Posted by: rodolfo | September 6, 2006 10:13 PM

Enjoyed the front-pager today.

More at http://mexicanosyamericanos.blogspot.com

Posted by: Adam | September 6, 2006 10:27 PM

Pasilla, I wasn't aware that 50 million people voted for AMLO. According to my numbers, slightly less than 15 million voted for him, and a whopping 35 million, including many who are poor, voted against him. Maybe the poor are too stupid to be allowed to vote, after all, Fidel doesn't let them.

And the reason Mexico has "continued being poor" is the direct legacy of 70 years of failed, inward looking and corrupt economic policies, union movements, and parasitic state enterprises. All of which AMLO wishes to preserve.

The fact that we export a million or so poor a year to the United States worries me very much. Because, believe it or not, I care about them. The poor, not a charismatic leader who is trying to create a personality cult amongst them. I think it is high time Mexico gave real capitalism, not the crony capitalism or psuedo socialism preached by AMLO and his ex PRIista soulmates, but the kind of capitalism that has made the Anglo Saxon nations the richest in the world, and Chile the richest nation in Latin America. Why not try something new?

Posted by: Jerry B | September 6, 2006 10:32 PM

Jerry B:

At this point in time I'm not surprised about your misreading of statements, your boring repetition of slogans like "real capitalism" (whatever that means...). Isn't by chance Bachelette a Socialist? Just asking...

I wrote:

"I don't know why about 200 thousand more poor people didn't vote for AMLO, out of the more than 50 million..."

Where in this statement I wrote that 50 million people voted for AMLO? I'm talking about the more than 50 million of poor people who barely survive in Mexico. Of course those poor Mexicans didn't appear during the Fox administration; but the number didn't budge in the past six years, and Felipe I will dutifully follow the neo-liberal policies that have been so successful in creating millionaires. You're right: why not try something else?

By the way, the whole population of Chile is probably less than Mexico City's. I'm not so sure that your comparison is valid...

Posted by: pasilla | September 6, 2006 10:50 PM

rodolfo:

Why the rage? Wasn't Felipe I crowned by the TEPJF? Everything should be hunky dory now, shouldn't it?

Posted by: pasilla | September 6, 2006 10:57 PM

Felipe I might need a pager, AMLO has got a strong voice to go around the Pinos residence calling on Vazquez Mota or Murillo. And he does not need to dress like a pager, he already looks like one!

Posted by: emptyboxes | September 7, 2006 12:08 AM

Jerry B.- You are asking: if the poor are becoming impatient, why didn't more of them vote for AMLO?

if you are such an expert on Mexican matters and really known the poor people of Mexico, then you should know that a vast majority has the mentality of "Pa que? ... si todo sigue igual" meaning that the system loves throwing garbage via TV so people remain clueless with apathy thinking their Vote will NOT change a thing ... and guess what? THEY ARE RIGHT because we have the GREAT institutions who just served well to the party in power.
Yes, millions of people did not vote because they DON'T EXPECT MIRACLES neither from PAN or PRD or PRI.


emptyboxes, sure AMLO is the devil himself, I heard somebody from PAN saw that 666 mark right out of his Tanates. Because regardless of how hard all you proPAN try to make him look like a maniac, the guy has exactly what the rest of PANistas lack: HUEVOS!!!

Posted by: FECAL/Mr Poopy | September 7, 2006 01:04 AM

Mr. Poopy,

It's HONKY dory, if I may say so.

Posted by: rodolfo | September 7, 2006 06:08 AM

Fook, rodolfo, my mistake! Has a firing squad from the language police been already convened for me?

Posted by: pasilla | September 7, 2006 11:05 AM

I'm just happy that most Mexicans are still reasonable enough to back away from Obrador when he gets really crazy. Rich, poor, or the re-emerging middle classes.

Thank goodness that Fox could at least influence the budget, monetary policy, and keep a lot of other things stable. Even if the PRD and PRI used block growth mesaures. Welcome PRI, to the new Mexico where you don't rule everything, glad to see the PRI is against Obrador's craziness and for trying something new.

Thank goodness Obrador is as crazy as Hugo Chavez but that we Mexicans have become smarter than the Venezuelans so we didn't go blindly voting for AMLO by a huge majority. Just having fun here, I know there are a lot of smart Venzuelans who are now being opressed by Chavez and his all-powerful party. At least til gas prices drop and they get overthrown... heaven knows elections aren't expected to be enough to remove a man like Chavez (or AMLO) who respects no laws.


Remember when Fox had charges dropped against AMLO so he could run without breaking the law? AMLO again wanst the laws to be bent in his favor. He wants a total recount despite the laws requiring proof of fraud in all voting stations. He did not even make that claim. His people got recounts off all the ones they had at least some potential legitimacy to complain of. But he says screw the laws, recount everything he wants.

Now AMLO says screw the government, he's starting his own. That is a traitor. The law has ways of punishing such traitors. Let it be the police of the millitary if he truly starts stealing tax money away frm a government that already assists the poor. He will use his money to help his campaign first and the poor are second at best. How pathetic.

Posted by: eljefejesus | September 7, 2006 02:14 PM

Once MALO has been defeated by legal mexican instances, let say the biggest mistakes of MALO´s campaign, probably due to ommittion, misconceive or discrimination.
MISTAKE NUMBER 1).- Most of our mexican citizens, lets say bacause they were born here in our country, do not have IFE identification, and why people do not have it?, easy answer: they do not need it to get paid, they are not considered in the healthy care system IMSS, probably most of them do not know how to write or read, then do not expect them requesting for one IFE ID. Just think how many people are in these conditions in Mexico, thousands maybe millions, but the worst is Lopez speech always says "I know the great poverty conditions of our people", and does he really know it? mmmm too bad for him and shame on him!!!, saying he knows those conditions and then he really and in fact betrayed them because he did nothing for them before the election time. Just consider how many mexicans abroad could not accomplish and get the possibility to vote due to lack of IFE ID.
MISTAKE NUMBER TWO).- Did Lopez go to universities to talk with the mexican youth? No he did not, again shame on him!!! He never went to speak with the new citizen with the right to vote, he disclaimed them. He always disclaimed debate with the mexican youth, bad for him beacuse all of them already had the IFE ID for any procedure.
MISTAKE NUMBER 3).- Lopez refused to go to the first debate, again shame on him !!! how a good sportman or sportwoman would refuse to play a match just beacuse he or she considers hiemself or herself better than the other player and then request winning the game. The same is for a student who doesn´t appears in the examination time because he considers himself with enough knowledge in order to desclaime the test. Only quiters and loosers do that. Only cheaters could think that way. If you have to demostrate your knowledge and your skills you go to anywhere without any scare. Lopez was deadly scary and it was his fatal mistake.

After those mistakes, what Lopez has to say on his favour, just cry and claim for conspiracy. Only looser do that. Again drawn by his own words.
The very better for him is to dissapear and leave the country for a while before his hipnotized fans wake up and then realize and face the ugly and raw reality of his idol.
Lopez anytime do anything for the poors he always look for himself and the dummy socialist party fellows who eat at McDonads take coffe at Starbucks and wear Levy´s jeans and drive a Lincoln Vagoner and sent their son or daughter to a PRIVET school, but they say "I am very socialist",
shame on them!!!
So thanks for your competition in this 2006 election time and better luck for nextime socialist gays. That´s all folks.

Posted by: adrian | September 7, 2006 02:33 PM

eljefejesus:

Pathetic? Your ranting is pathetic. Show me something new that you are talking about. Stale rhetoric, no more. More than fifty million Mexicans who didn't vote for Felipe I are irrational, according to your twisted perception.

In his (her?) superb post, calabazinha points toward a critical issue: it is a lot easier to demonize an individual than to confront organic social and economic problems. Welcome to the new Mexico of citizens willing to demand solution to the problems of the majority, opposite to governments subservient of the never-ending demands of the soulless capital...

Posted by: pasilla | September 7, 2006 03:04 PM

The nation of Congo, formerly Zaire, has a upcoming presidential run off eleciton.

The Congo, in the heart of Africa has a better democratic process than so advance Mexico.

The PRD will be pushing for a runoff election, if needed, for the next presidential election.

Because FECAL has almost 70percent of the voters who participated, voting against him.

If backward Africa can have run off elections, then Super advance Mexico deserves it also. FOX b4 the election, talked about the neeed for runoffs. Since he knew that dirty tricks would be used, and that FECAL was going 2 apear 2win by a hair. The mention of a runoff b4 the election, and the probale need four one, in the near future, was very sneaky.
(Wonder if that was Dick Morris idea).

Thats why a full recount could never be allowed. It would have bought the whole house of cards down.

Any guess´s on when they burn these ballot boxes?

Posted by: maya0 | September 7, 2006 03:15 PM

JerryB

U know how U always bring up that the north is so much richer, than the south, is so messed up poor etc etc etc?
And how that because of the PAN in the north, their so much richer, etc etc etc?

Ever wonder where all the most famous rich narcos live? What states? If the south was next to the biggest consumer of drugs on the planet earth, would that some how help make them less poor?

Narco Inc. in the north, with its southern branches, is the number one money maker, in all of Mexico.

Makes U wonder who lets them run amock?
It aint AMLO and his ppl thats for damm sure.

Posted by: maya0 | September 7, 2006 03:30 PM

Oh and pls dont mention acapulco as some prime example of PRD link 2 narcos, pls, thats just fiilbustering.

Posted by: maya0 | September 7, 2006 03:32 PM

maya0

If Fox new that dirty tricks were going to be used, why did he only allow Calderon to win by a hair? Surely if this was all planned they could have "fixed" a much larger margin. Please explain.

Posted by: PeterN | September 7, 2006 03:44 PM

maya0, I don't think that a run off would be on the best interest for the PRD. If there was a run off today, guess who will win? Calderón by 54%. AMLO would only get 22%. That's what the polls have shown.

And don't get me wrong. Although I believe that run offs are very expensive, in cases like this, with such a narrow margin between the two leading candidates, I think it should be done. It would clarify things. But in our situation, the only thing to clarify would be the smashing victory of Calderón over AMLO. And there would be no fraud... just that regular people are tired of AMLO's anarchic antics. That's all.

Posted by: bunburina | September 7, 2006 03:51 PM

PeterN

How could a landslide win by FECAL be possible in a country where in the south, the majority of mexicans live?

Sononra, for example, the 2nd biggest state of Mexico, has all of 2million people. Whats that? A small delegation in Mexico City? A win by FECAL by just a hair would be easier to explain, but just dont allow a recount of all the votes. Because if dirty tricks are to be effective, only a bit could be allowed to squeak by. A landslide by FECAL would have been imposible to explain, but by a eyelash, much more probable.
But a full recount of all the votes would have bought to light the whole enchilada.
So a partial recount was allowed, that shaved some off FECAL´s lead, but not enuff to endanger him.
A full recount, ballot box by ballot box, all 41millon votes, inspected, recounted, whould have blown the whole show. And the PAN, FECAL, their supporters know this.
The whole world,"pensante" the thinking masses, know this. U cant put a bag over this. Anyone in the world outside of Mexico, is shown this, and they agree, well its Mexico, what do u expect?

Posted by: maya0 | September 7, 2006 03:57 PM

maya0

So are you saying that if Calderon were to have won with no "fixes", it would have only been by a small majority?

As for counting all the ballot boxes, well in the ones chosen by MALO where he believed he would get the biggest reversal, it worked out he gained less than a half vote per cassila. Considering many places in the south had no votes for PAN (allegedly), how many would he have gained there?

MALO does not want a run-off election, he would lose. MALO does not want a re-election with all original candidates in it again, because he would get many less votes from those who voted for him first time around. MALO wants to be president, and to hell with anything that gets in his way.

The fact is he lost.

Posted by: PeterN | September 7, 2006 04:16 PM

bunburina
With almost 70percent not even voting for FECAL on july 2nd, what makes u think they would all vote for him in a runoff?
AMLO would win hands down on in a runoff.

See, a runoff is not possible by law, fox and everybody knows this. Its not possible this election cycle. Only in the future. Thats, why he mentioned it.

A plan b, because the desafuero didnt work out. So the PAN and co. cooked up what happen on july 2nd. A hair breath win by FECAL. So close that ppl would complain.
Which happen. People took to the streets. And they even talked about a runoff election. But a runoff isnt allowed by law for this election. Dont u get it?

The key was the usage of the word "segunada vuelta" by FOX b4 the election. It was a planted word. With advisors like Dick Morris and god knows who else, ex cia ppl perhaps, the PAN had all the goodies at its hand to use against AMLO. "The desafuero didnt work out, lets try plan b. then", because AMLO would never be allowed to win the presidency. No matter if the election has to be stolen from him. No way was he going to be allowed to get federal power. Am sure theirs a plan C. out their to have had him killed, if somehow a full recount were allowed, and he was found to have won, which of course he did.

This AMLO movement, is looking more and more like a civil rights movement, in protection of true Mexican democracy. Instead of going away, AMLO and his supporters, are creating a new civil rights movement. Its going to be a great six years fighting the good fight, by only peacefull legal means. A modern day Gandhi, our own Martin Luther King, AMLO.

Hey, its not are fault, we only wanted him to be president. Now FECAL and their supporters, have made so much more out of him. Hes going to be a constant thron in FECAL´s skin these next 6years. By 2012, if their needs be a runoff, because nobody wins the majority,thanks to the PRD, it will be on the books. And AMLO wont be no Cardenas, and lose his 2nd time around, nope, he will win bigger than what he won this time. Instead of 6 years of AMLO, u have won yourself 12.
All Panistas take right hand, clench in fist and pound on chest, (just like in church) and say, "por mi culpa, por mi gran clupa".

Posted by: maya0 | September 7, 2006 04:40 PM

I wonder if some of you spend a little time READING, REALLY READING the postings. What maya0 was talking about was PRD proposing the incorporation of the possibility of a runoff election in Mexican electoral law. Who's talking about a runoff election between AMLO and Calderon? If the wimps of the TEPJF refused to recount all votes on legalistic grounds, how a runoff election can be held in the absence of a clear legal possibility?

PeterN:

Have you given a little thought to the mantra that only small variations in number of votes were detected in the partial recount? It's beyond me the train of thought followed by the TEPJF: If the difference between original votes and those in the recount was lower that the difference between the leading candidates, the discrepancy was deemed irrelevant to the final result of the election. To my mind it is like saying: "the parts don't have any influence on the whole." If discrepancies were present (more or less votes than those recorded), results from that polling station were suspect and should be annulled. And now, once again, legalism trumps certainty, ballots will be burn and we will never know the truth. What a transparent election! Ugalde was to Felipe I what Pio Marcha was to Agustin I...

Posted by: pasilla | September 7, 2006 04:52 PM

Continue to play confused, but am sure u do understand. FECAL could not win by a landslide, the only way dirty tricks would work, in FECALs case, is to make it look like he won by a slim margin. A eyelash.
Since theirs no runn off in Mexico, no 51 percent majority win, no problemo. FECAL could appear to win by just a tiny bit. Had their been a runnoff election, he would have lost easy, almost 70percent of Mexicans who voted, voted against him. But since no run off elections exsit in Mexico, no promblem. In case of demonstrations, allow only a tiny recount, which of course did show dirty tricks, but not enuff 2 change the election. A full recount could never be allowed. Thats why FECAL and all the PANistas and FOX, where dead set against it. It would have blown their story. Get it now?

Posted by: PeterN | September 7, 2006 04:53 PM

Where is the power of the PRD? Their congressmen can't get any positions in Congress and have to accept the crumbs left to them by the PAN. Why? Aren't they suppose to be very good politicians?

Their radicalism is getting them isolated while the PAN and PRI are having a pic-nic in Congress. The show they did last Friday served the purpose of denigrating the cause they claim to defend. PAN and PRI rule in the houses and Felipe Calderon is already receiving visits from the leaders of PVEM, PANAL, Alternativa and Convergencia is also getting closer.

Today in Congress while Zermeño announced the issuing of the Bando Presidencial the PRD and PT Congressmen abandoned the place, where was Convergencia?

These are the most stupid congressmen I have ever seen, they have absolutely no power to change any laws or block any reforms and yet they want to change the Constitution and impose their agenda on congress. What a bunch of idiots.

We will see how much fun PAN will have passing all reforms he wants because he is a real politician, he offers and concedes and courteously negotiates, and he has a power position, on the other side, AMLO and PRD continually threaten all other parties not to accept any negotiation but they offer nothing.

Posted by: emptyboxes | September 7, 2006 05:25 PM

PeterN | September 7, 2006 04:53 PM

That looked like you posting under my name maya0, You´ve been refered to the rules of this blog enough times.

This time I am reporting it.

Posted by: PeterN (the real one) | September 7, 2006 05:36 PM

Posted by: rodolfo | September 7, 2006 05:45 PM

pasilla,

We miss your stoic 70's retro nationalism.

Please sign up at orellana's.

http://arielorellana.net/forums/

Posted by: rodolfo | September 7, 2006 05:56 PM

maya0

No, I don´t get it.

From what I understand you are starting (MALO like) from the position that there was fraud, and then trying to explain any possibility of a Calderon victory to fit with that.

If he gets a large victory, no one would believe it.

If he gets a small victory, it was because it was already set up.

According to you there is no way Calderon could win, just as according to MALO there is no way he could have lost.

And by the way, don´t use commie word play, it´s not true that 65% (not 70%) of the popultion voted AGAINST Calderon, 65% did not vote FOR him, is the correct interpretation of the facts. But when has that ever bothered fanatics. By your own argument a larger proportion DID NOT vote for MALO.

Posted by: PeterN (the real one) | September 7, 2006 06:08 PM

Several of you point out that over 70% voted against Calderon, so how could he win in a landslide. Simple: 70% also voted "against" Lopez Obrador. Since the election, Lopezd Obrador has certainly lost favor with some of those who voted for him the first time.

Posted by: Furnifold | September 7, 2006 06:39 PM

PeterN
sorry, i meant that last post of mine directed to u and instead posted your name!

Anyways, its very simple, FECAL and AMLO couldnt do any run off election, because its not allowed by law. FOX mentioning b4 the election that it would be a good idea to have a law allowing run off eletctions for future election is suspect.

Dirty tricks where cooked up against AMLO with the desfuero, the Aumada thing, where everyone didnt believe AMLO about the plot against him. Aumada later confrim there was a plot.

Plan A. didnt work, so plan B. was all ready to go. Thats why the key is in Fox mentioning the need for run off elections.
Why? Did he already know what was going to happen? That FECAL would have a slim lead over AMLO? That people wouldnt like it, so he talks about a run off, knowing full well that it cannot happen for this election?
Suspect. Very fishy, like all that was related to this election. Where was FECAL going to get a landslide majority, when the northern states that would vote for him, are mostly empty states. Sonora for example has only 2million people. Its the 2nd largest state in territory, not people.

So a landslide couldnt have been explain away. Only by inventing a tiny percentage more for FECAL than AMLO, could the win be explain away, as it has. But no allowing for a full recount could ever be permited. The whole fraud would have been exposed.

So a tiny percentage of ballots where counted, and it did reduce FECALs numbers.
But not enuff to harm him. Only a full recount would have destroyed his lead.

That is why the usage of the run off election phrase, is suspect. FOX knew that all this was going to happen. Dirty tricks where in the works to stop AMLO at any cost, including democracy in Mexico.

Thats why AMLO will never give up. Democracy is at stake in Mexico.
A new civil rights movement has begun in Mexico. Our civil right to have our votes protected and respected. Something that clearly shows was not.

Posted by: maya0 | September 7, 2006 09:51 PM

Maya, Narcos in the south? Not in such places as Acapulco, Michoacan, and Quintana Roo. Surely not!!!

As to a runoff, what a great idea!!! Why did not the PRD propose one before the elections? Why did not MALO call for one after the elections? Not necesarily legal, but then neither was counting all the ballots without impugnations, and that did not bother him. The answer, of course, is that the PRD was and remains scared to death of what would happen to their candidate in a one on one election with a sensible candidate like Calderon...

Posted by: Jerry B | September 7, 2006 09:56 PM

JerryB
Name one famous narco from the states u mentioned, current ones please.
Ill give u 3 from the north, Vicente Carrillo, El Chapo Guzman, Edith Arellano, the only known female narco head.
U may continue to ignore that fact that the biggest drug user is the USA, and its all up their next to north Mexico. Who would the southern states sell drugs to?
Guatamala? Honduras? Maybe Belize. No matter how much u dislike this fact, but Narco Inc. in Mexico is a Northern corporation, and u cannot ignore that lots of the money u see, i see here in the north, is heavly influence by the almight narco dollar.

And a run off between AMLO and FECAL would have been easy for AMLO to win, but it cannot happen between them. Wait till 2012 when AMLO runs again, has a run off between him and whatever PAN is apointed to run, and see AMLO beat the pants off whoever that is. But prepare for six years of AMLO new civil right movement for Mexico, defending Mexican democracy. Imagine that, 12 years of AMLO. We would have been happy with 6 years, but nope. Thanks to dirty tricks, hes going to be around a whole lot longer.

Posted by: maya0 | September 7, 2006 10:08 PM

pasilla, the problem with some of maya's posts is that his spelling and grammar is um... not the best. This, sometimes, makes his point get lost in, well, the translation.

At the same time, you accuse some of not really reading while doing the same. Bunburina is responding to a post where maya says that "because there are no runoffs...". She picks up from there. She is not incorrect in her reading, its just that maya refers to both the past and present in the same post, confusing the issue.

Now, this are side issues. The real issues I want to discuss are 2:

- Poor people voting or not for AMLO. I'm going to simplify and say that there are 3 reasons why someone poor (we'd have to agree on a definition too, I read somewhere that 80% of Mexicans define themselves as middle-class) would not vote for AMLO
A) They believed the AMLO propaganda that they were ahead by 10 points (is that dirty campaigning, lying, what?) so they say "why bother, he's going to win"
B) They believed the PAN, so they either abstained or voted for someone else who's not AMLO. Maybe they truly liked someone else.
C) They believed no-one, so they abstain.
None of these options really adhere to the theory that poor people believe AMLO will somehow save them, because if they really believed that then NOTHING would have stopped them. NOTHING.

- So now we have a new conspiracy theory? Don't make too much fraud? I'm going to paste here something I posted at the forums at my site in response to a Tex Drifter post where he said he believed there was some fraud.

----
tex wrote:
There are 3 big reasons that I think election was not without fraud-
1- Mexico under the PRI refined techniques of fraud and election control to an art.
2-I don't think anyone has denied irregularities, although it was declared that they were not significant enought to change the results.
3- I have very little doubt that the US (especially considering Bush and Fox's warm relationship) has been putting huge amounts of behind the scenes pressure on the Mexican government to make sure AMLO could never win. The US would probably do anything right now to prevent having another Chavez or even another Evo.
---
I wrote:

This is one of my pet peeves so forgive me if I sound angry during my post. The PRI did refine fraud but it wasn't all that refined, everybody could see it going on, it was out in the open, it didn't have to be subtle at all because they were in control and feared nothing. After 1988 the opposition negotiated electoral reform in exchange for playing nice (not revolting) under Salinas. All the controls we have in place are there to avoid or detect all of those types of fraud the PRI refined. If the system cannot stop certain types of fraud it can almost always detect them. In theory this is what came out as challenges from the Coalicion. However, there are a number of false positives derived from mistakes ("This station is missing 3 votes, the one right next to it is missing 3 votes, fraud I tell you, fraud!"). There were several irregularities serious enough to render the station null, but they was DETECTED.

Something that I do not quite understand is why the Tribunal, when deciding wether or not to anull a station, didn't look at the serial numbers of the ballots to see how many came from another station (like in contiguous stations) and which are forgeries or other types of real fraud. They just said, well, we have 50 extra ballots but the winning candidate won by 100, so it doesn't matter. Look at the serial numbers, its easy. If you have 200 voters then the serial number should stop after ballot 200 for that station (it could be 13578, for example), all those ballots after the 200th should be null.

To me it is rather obvious that its easier to influence the voters BEFORE they get to the station than to falsify votes because you otherwise risk anulling the whole thing.
---

The problem with conspiracy theories is that, as explanations, clarifications and assumptions are struck down and facts fall into place, the theory starts needing more and more outrageous explanations. This is the case with the "cheat, but not by much and only for the president, not congress or senate" theory. There are people who will always think that 9/11 was a self-attack, there will always be people who think JFK was killed by the CIA. You will always find someone who thinks massive fraud was performed in this election. I will not stand here and deny problems. There clearly were, we need to make better rules so that the IFE or tribunal can punish the President or the CCE for their actions, there have to be consequences for negative campaigns, there has to be a runoff, etc, etc, but I cannot accept what AMLO proposes and I will never accept his methods.

Finally, I realize that this election has divided the country, but to blame everything on the PAN/Calderon/Fox is disingenious, AMLO made his campaign on the whole US vs THEM platform. We're all responsible, don't just point fingers this way.

Posted by: Ariel R. Orellana | September 7, 2006 10:11 PM

Ariel
Perhaps, your promblems with my posts, is not so much my grammer or spelling, its what am saying. That somehow confuses U.
Well, sure, i understand. When everyone thought the earth was the center of all creation, am sure Copurnicous also wasnt understood well. Especially when u see clearly how everything goes around, sun moon stars etc. But he prove that they where wrong. And AMLO proved that their was fraud. But just a little, according to the TRIFE. Not enough to make FECAL lose. So we have to live with a illegal president for 6 years. AMLOs new civil rights movement will take on a life of its own. But am sure Ariel, that is also confusing to you.

Posted by: maya0 | September 7, 2006 10:22 PM

Maya, do you remember Mario Villanueva? You know, he was governor of Quintana Roo...probably a closet northerner...
The difference between north and south, and why one is rich and the other not, is that here we work hard and follow our dreams. In the south, they follow whoever the cacique del dia happens to be.

Posted by: Jerry B | September 7, 2006 10:42 PM

I just won ten pesos, i bet that u would mention Mario villanueva, who was put away, back in Zedillos days, and he was no head of narco, he worked for the northern ones. I can imagine u going insane, looking for real names, not make beleive. Look around where u live. TJ right? Thats where the Federation has a base of operation. Ever heard of the Federation? A blanket of narco companies invented by El señor de los cielos, also a northern narco. U make beleive that having the biggest consumer of drugs in the world, right next door to TJ, and other places in the north, has no affect on the economics of the place. The south, just doesnt have the biggest crack, meth, pot user, etc etc etc, right next door.
Am sure that hard work also comes to play, but having so much narco money doesnt hurt. To ignore drugs inc. north, is to ignore facts. U keep on pretending, the rest of us knows whats up.

Posted by: maya0 | September 7, 2006 10:54 PM

Hey, maya0,

Here's a great big fat southern narco; Pedro Díaz Parada of Oaxaca. He has his fiefdoms in the central parts of the state between Oax & the Isthmus. He's famous for the deals worked out with the tank trucks of Pemex from Salina Cruz running first, in the old days, pot, then changed to coke in the 80's. A couple of years back, Excelsior did a story on him and his HQ in Sta. María Zoquitlán. One day you'll have to investigate the Juan Rosales Rosales case. The south produces and introduces lots of drugs, and then what's not consumed in-country is sent north to the gringos. The whole country is covered by Narco-Network; it's foolish to think there's a division between the north & south. One of the reasons my husband & I stay away from some parts of the state is that we've been warned not to be turning the campesinos on to alternative, legal businesses by the enforcers of Pedrito.

Posted by: K. Vronna | September 7, 2006 11:56 PM

Nope maya, but see, when you make an effort you can be clearer and that makes for better dialog. Still, I have to point out that the fraud part was not proven, the only things that were proven were the interference of the President and the CCE. That's it. I deplore that nothing can be done about it but chastise the offenders in those cases, but the proof of fraud is simply not there. No one will ever convince you otherwise but you decided to take this to the tribunal and you couldn't prove it. Ask yourself why it is that your the intellectuals have, for the most part, abandonded your cause. Are they sellouts too? Sure, some here don't like those intellectuals, but I'm not one of them, the only thing I've ever said about any of them is calling Guadalupe Loaeza dellusional.

I also forgot to comment on your "why is the north full of drugs?" post. Do you really have to ask? Is it necessary to point out that the consumer is right next to the northern states? Have you given a thought to the fact that, given your train of though, this is yet another example of the north doing a better job than the south?

Finally, maya, the problem I had in the past with your posts was that they were, at diverse points, offensive, sexist, bigoted, racist and/or threatening. Just because I point out that your spelling and grammar are defficient doesn't mean I'm saying that you are, or that your mind is. Maybe that's confusing you and you take it personally. Otherwise, what's the point of inviting you to join is in the forums?

Posted by: Ariel R. Orellana | September 8, 2006 12:15 AM

K Vronna
congraulations, u found one, but like U say, whats not consumed in the country is sent north, where TJ and other fine northern narco cities reside. My point is that most of narco inc. money is made in the north, invested in the north, because thats where the biggest consumer is. Right next to the north. U mention just one, by the way a quite older one. The big boys seem all to reside in the north. Why is all the up and coming narco heads, seems to be concentrating in the north? Is guatamala next door? No, its the land of John Belushi and all his coke addicted friends.

But of course, u rather not see this unpleasnt truth. But narco Inc. major HQs and major investments, are all up here in the north. Its that famous trikle down ecnomey theroy of the reagan era. Of course their is narco investments in the south, but thats itty bitty compared to the mega money that is seen in, well places like TJ where JerryB is from.
Wonder why it makes him cringe when i mention this. Makes me wonder what JerryB does for a living. Or if he is a legit bussines man, who are his customers?

Posted by: maya0 | September 8, 2006 12:18 AM

Flooding in the PRD controlled DF because of no construction of adequate drainage.

"El milagro Mexicano continua"

Posted by: Ariel R. Orellana | September 8, 2006 12:30 AM

Ariel your missing my point about the drug issue. I know that more drugs go north because of the USA. Geography plays a roll in that, not because of some northern work ethic. JerryB is always bringing up the south is poor and more dumb, north is richer, smarter etc. Well i just had to remind him that a lot if not most of the riches u see in the northern states, are thanks to Narco inc.
U cannot ignore this fact. Narco, is the number one maker of money for Mexico. And the narcos arent sitting on all their money. They invest in cars, boats, planes, homes, watches, shoes, etc etc etc. Some of that trikle down effect i wrote in my last post. U cant deny this.

Oh, and if i did insult, say sexist things, etc, well, i never, u can chk, never, drew 1st blood. Sorry about that terrible refrence by rambo, but it fits.
I always returned what i was given. Shame on me, for letting others push my buttons. Mea clupa, but i had fun, responding to those who flung barbs my way.

Posted by: maya0 | September 8, 2006 12:35 AM

maya0, don't you think that a narco will invest where it will actually be an investment, something that accrues value. If you invested in the south, you'd be limited to very few lucrative investments compared to the north where property values and investment opportunities are much more plentiful, right?

But I think all this is a moot point because as I mentioned, the Narco-Network covers the whole country, just follow the executions. If the money isn't taken out of the business by legalization, we're going to be out of political topics because all the politicians will be from one party; the PRN. No, not the PRI's precursor, the Partido de la Red de Narcos.

Posted by: K. Vronna | September 8, 2006 12:46 AM

Fair enough maya, I understand now what you were driving at. One small point, however. I feel you're diminishing the achievements of many hard working northeners with your comments. The narcotics "industry" is very recent. Cities like Juarez, Hermosillo, Torreon, Monterrey and others were not made in the last 40 years. There is a reason the Monterrey metro area has the highest GDP per capita in the country and why San Pedro is the only city in the country with more than 1 phone line per person. Narcs in the city were a rarity until very recently. It had to happen, its a mayor route to the north.

Oh, and sorry about that flooding in the DF jab, couldn't resist, but it was in good humor, I know its more complex than that.

Posted by: Ariel R. Orellana | September 8, 2006 01:11 AM

pasilla wrote:
"eljefejesus: pathetic? Your ranting is pathetic. Show me something new that you are talking about. Stale rhetoric, no more. More than fifty million Mexicans who didn't vote for Felipe [such as] I are irrational, according to your twisted perception."

Umm... yeah! Now if we're talking about people that still specifically support AMLO's lunacy, I would add stupid. Ok, at best naive and gullible to believe a politician when he says he is the savior of the poor and they should do whatever he says.

It takes an old kind of idiot from which modern Mexican has recently evolved... although not all the earlier species have yet become extinct. If and when they become violent, however, I have little doubt but that they would be displaced most expeditiously. :) Again, just having some fun at the expense of the irrational radicals who support AMLO's old solutions of making promisses to spend government money on the poor to end poverty.

Posted by: eljefejesus | September 8, 2006 03:36 AM


Remember that when Darwin wrote his oft-misinterpreted theory of evolution, he explained that survival goes to those best "fitted" to their environment (survival of the fittest).

Populists have left latin america to lag. Communists have left Russia behind Europe where it used to be compared, and investor-friendly capitalist countries have the most powerful economies from Japan, Europe, and the US, to the Asian tigers like South Koria, Taiwan, Hong Kong (and for the last 20 years China).

Now if some old dinosaurs can't adapt to the new economy, they will be angry and left behind followers of AMLO... but in the long run they will not survive.

... we are going to start counting to give it more than the 1 sexenio under fox when there was gridlock from the PRD and the PRI. Rome wasn't built in a day... and neither will the new Mexico.

Posted by: eljefejesus | September 8, 2006 03:42 AM

Posted by: | September 8, 2006 06:00 AM

The 6:00 AM post was by me.

Posted by: rodolfo | September 8, 2006 06:04 AM

Ariel R. Orellana:

Volcanic ash may fall over the PRD-governed Federal District; some earthquakes happen from time to time... You can do better than that!

You insist that there was no fraud (I personally don't think that it was generalized, but targeted) and that fraud wasn't proved; interesting logic. Fraud has to be proved, but without granting access to the source of evidence (the ballots).

eljefejesus:

If I'd understand what you are talking about, I'd make an effort in answering... You are a prime example of those who misrepresent Darwin's thought: social Darwinism is an invention of the right, not Darwin.

rodolfo:

I don't have a clue what The Art of War has to do with the links you post; besides, the writers of the anti-AMLO "manifesto" should be ashamed of their poor grammar. And no, I'm not interested in participating in your Olympic gathering. I prefer the agora...

By the way, I felt very good about the pro-AMLO kids "visiting" the oligophrenic Adal Ramones: what a lame argument!: "we are just trying to entertain;" never mind the anti-AMLO editorializing. Beautiful consequence: no public allowed in live broadcasting from the TV studios...

Posted by: pasilla | September 8, 2006 09:37 AM

pasilla, the flooding jab is sort of a running joke, maybe it was while you were away. Maya knows what I'm talking about.

I insist that there was no massive fraud and that the targeted fraud was detected and the stations anulled for the most part. I'm not entirely certain what you mean with the next part of your comment, since access to the ballots was granted on 9% of the stations, where the mechanisms did show irregularities that merited opening the stations. Maybe if you clarify I'll be able to comment more pertinently. As it is, I'm assuming you're refering to the vote x vote request. If you are then I have to remind you that the PRD bears as much responsibility for not getting that approved as anyone else since they didn't submit paperwork for every district. Were the PRD lawyers overworked, were they rookies, naive or dumb or were they lying? Perhaps something else like the PAN conspiracy theory of it being a strategy to set up the request to fail so they could later claim injustice. I don't know, but whatever it was they hurt their own cause more than the PAN could.

Posted by: Ariel R. Orellana | September 8, 2006 11:53 AM

I'll give pasilla this much credit, it is true that social darwinism is not an invention of darwin. the general principal is oft-misinterpreted and missaplied to wrongly imply that the strongest, swiftest or most fit will survive. what he actually meant was that those most fitted to their enviromnet would survive. In a way, I guess I am having my fun by correcting social darwinism to be more precise in my last post. My point, however, remains that old communist and solialist views are no way to make a nation richer. However, some redistribution policies are a way to sacrifice efficiency and growth in exchange for greater equality. Since Mexico still has to improve it's competitiveness in the world and
lower its susceptibility to external shocks and oil price declines which still make up a huge part of government revenue. Therefore, before we spend we should clean up our act.

However, Democracy makes room for views of Pasilla and other lower intellectuals like him. As he pointed out, he did not understand my playful twist on social darwinism. He certainly won't understand the need to improve mexico's finances before we go too far on spending. if you want to see what would follow, see argentina's plummet in its finances... or even mexico's own past debt crises originating from prior freefall in world oil prices. However, some people don't educate themselves and just believe a politician that seeks power. If they are good people and still follow AMLO, then it is typically because they are uneducated in economics, not willing to learn, trusting, naive, and believe in the old answers.
Pasilla, why don't you crack open a couple of text books on macroeconomics and international economics, read about the solow growth model, the steady state, the is/lm curves, past mexican crisis, and then see if you understand what i am talking about. after all that, you too may finally drop amlo and support growth and jobs to help relieve mexican poverty.

Posted by: eljefejesus | September 8, 2006 04:56 PM

eljefejesus,

How much longer do you think Mexico will take before the "social spending" can begin?

Posted by: rodolfo | September 8, 2006 05:13 PM

eljefejesus:

Sorry for being... what did you say, a "low intellectual" (whatever that means)? However, while all those wonderful jobs, all that growth materializes (as other distinguished PAN-ista promised six years ago), what do we do with the poor? Do we wait for them to die off or just for the "fittest" to come to the US?

"However, some redistribution policies are a way to sacrifice efficiency and growth in exchange for greater equality...."

This statement defines your way of thinking beautifully: an attempt of making the lives of poor people less miserable through public investment is a "sacrifice" of profit...

I just need to "crack open" a newspaper to realize that illegal immigration to the US, a shameful event for any government, a proof of its inability to provide for their citizens, is rampant in Mexico, and has increased substantially during the Fox administration.

But going back to your social Darwinism; contrary to you, I'm not accusing anybody to be a "low intellectual;" but I believe that I have the right to say, based on your past comment, that I'm not at fault in not understanding your pseudo humor if you write so badly...

Posted by: pasilla | September 8, 2006 05:29 PM

Interesting hole Mr. Lopez Obrador is in now. If he lifts the Planton, he will be acknowledging the Planton was a mistake and that the whole sacrifice he put so many of his followers through and all the problems he caused to Mexico City were of no help.
AMLO and Encinas want President Fox to use force, they have been asking for it, the whole planton represents a lot of daily expenses and trouble, it has become a social malade.
But President Fox is enjoying the situation very much. He is really having a lot fun watching AMLO blaming the press for his bad image and making scorn of all our institutions, wasting whatever political capital he has left.
Fox has the "I told you" expression in his face, the people of Mexico City, the ones who voted for AMLO and PRD in their mayority, are suffering their presence already. The intellectuals who defended AMLO so much during the desafuero are now suffering the embarrassment of AMLO's daily rantings. He has embarrassed them all and he has destroyed the image these intellectuals helped him build in the national and international press. I remember Sergio Aguayo and Antonio Crespo participating in interviews in CNN and BBC and other international networks and praising all the virtues and good political skills of AMLO. I remember Fox getting criticized everyday by Monsivais, Loaeza, Meyer, and even Carlos Fuentes. Well, now President Fox is enjoying himself much, and it all started last Friday when the PRD congressmen exposed themselves as clowns in congress and then the TRIFE Confirmed Felipe Calderon, and then when Felipe Calderon went to pick up his paper from TRIFE some imbeciles from PRD were spitting on everyone who tried to go into the tribunal, showing their pacific resistance character.

I think President Fox is doing right by not using any force to get the Planton out. The people of Mexico City needs to learn that there are populists and demagogues that dress themselves like victims of plots everyday. They need to learn who AMLO really is. And every day they suffer his destructive actions at the zocalo more and more people in Mexico City understand how wrong they were to have supported this dictator-wanna-be during the desafuero and the videoscandals, and hopefully they will learn to dismiss those politicians who when caught in corruption scandals the first thing they resort to is to pose as victims of an alledged plot to destroy them.

The longer the Planton lasts, the better the lesson will be learned and in the mean time, the same people who voted and believed in that demagogue are now demanding President Fox to use force to take the planton out, but Fox won't do it. And he is right not to do it. The people of Mexico City deserved the planton, so that they learn to distinguish populists better next time around.

Posted by: emptyboxes | September 8, 2006 06:34 PM

You have all read it here first: the gospel according to emptyboxes... We need more scribes like him, who will teach the "untutored" (don't ask me; ask him!) citizens of Mexico City how to think, Monterrey style...

Amen!

PS Regards to Big Brother

Posted by: pasilla | September 8, 2006 07:08 PM

There is already social spending in Mexico, but it has been shown that high growth rates yield significant reductions in poverty over time.
Why don't people like pasilla want to acknowledge this? Does it not fit into their preconceived pseudo-marxist ideologies neatly enough?
Calderon has already anticipated the need to beging expanding credit to the poor woment (who have been more reliable in using the assistance as investments to help themselves and their families than have men).
This is a good step. But in general, I strongly believe that mexico's huge debt as a ratio to GDP is not healthy for the pool.
So while pasilla and others like him strugle to understand the merits of anything beyond their favorite outdated idologies of the 60's and 70's, people like rodolfo, emptyboxes, and myself know a populist when we see one and a need for the country's economy to grown when we see it as well.
Surely even pasilla can agree with the minimally taxing concept that if mexico can at least raise tax revenue through a value-added tax and improved tax collection, then we can prioritize paying down the national debt and also expanding credit and investment in the southern states.
In other other words, not spending more than we have. Investing for the future. It's responsible financial management that works for individuals and countries as well.

Posted by: eljefejesus | September 8, 2006 07:14 PM

rodolfo,
in more direct answer to your question, social spending has grow even more now, but only if we cut spending in other areas.

let me share this interesting selection available online at internationalbudget.org:

"In Mexico, the share of the federal budget going to social spending is increasing, mainly in the areas of health and social assistance. Spending for the Ministry of Security and Economy is increasing as well. Overall government spending is projected to decline by 5.6 percent from 2005 to 2006, due to lower oil prices and other factors. However, part of this decline may reflect an underestimation of oil prices for the coming year."

Rodolfo, I think people just don't understand us when we criticise the left because they think that we are against the poor or something crazy like that. If they looked more closely, they would see our concern. However, it is easier to give a person another dollar than to improve the economy such that it may have more jobs available for the poor.

Posted by: eljefejesus | September 8, 2006 07:34 PM

Emptyboxes, you are right, every day the planton stays there, more and more Chilangos are getting to know and love MALO ever more. Some time back, there were rumors that his acoloytes wanted to "tomar" a PEMEX installation near the city, and troops were sent to guard it. I think this was a mistake. Let them have it, destroy it, and the Chilangos can all live without gasoline. See how they like MALO then...

Posted by: Jerry B | September 8, 2006 08:27 PM

eljefejesus,

As you say, you apply the same sensible spending practice you do in in your personal life as you apply to a government's spending policies.

You can only spend what you have and it takes time to spend on big social projects as it takes a long time of hard work to have enough money saved to buy a refrigerator or a car.

Our governments in the 70s and 80s had no qualms about spending and raising minimum wages as if the economy were a country
fair. The way to get more money was to print more money, until the country crashed in a series of apalling devaluations.

I still remember the "Economia Ficcion" we used to chuckle about when Echeverria started his tercermundista crusade.

Posted by: rodolfo | September 8, 2006 09:04 PM

What a patetical bunch of clowns these PRD people are, and a mafia also. They have been sending their UNAM radical fossiles to every event of Felipe Calderon ever since he was in campaign. In each and every meeting he had they were always there, violently "protesting" for something, they always have an excuse, and now it seems they are doing it more and more violently.

It goes to show the kind of filthy miserable radicals they are. Hugo Chavez is doing exactly the same with his oppositor in Venezuela where yesterday they send some punks to one of his events.

It seems the enemies of freedom and peace always behave in the same way.

But the force of the pacifics will prevail.

Felipe Calderon beat amlo up in the campaign, then he beat him up again in the election, then in the post-electoral conflict, and at the tribunal. And Felipe Calderon, the Elected President of Mexico, is now having all the protection of the EMP and all the money needed.

What is AMLO dreaming about? What a clown. I feel sorry for him. God help him. Poor fellow.

Posted by: emptyboxes | September 8, 2006 10:56 PM

eljefejesus:

Please remember that I'm a "low intellectual." I'm not entirely sure what you do want me to agree to, in the mishmash of ideas that you put together. In principle, promoting growth sounds a priori like a fine idea, but not so in the face of the big asymmetry in income. If your "modern" economic theories work so well, why has growth been so meager during the Fox administration? I'm anticipating your reply: they have not had enough time to work. But for once rodolfo wrote something that made some sense: how much longer the poor are going to cope with their poverty? It's easy to defend blind monetarism, for example, if you don't have to fight ever harder to put food on the table. Your arguments seem very Christian: you have to suffer first to enjoy glory later. If the Mexican government continues making its main priority, to irrational extremes, the combat to inflation, there may not be Mexicans left to enjoy the rewards of such "wise" policies. And I'm amazed that you wrote that the government should live according to its means. No loans? I seriously doubt it. Anyway; something has to be done to stimulate consumption in the short term. In the long term we will all be dead...

PS By the way, AMLO improved tax revenue in Mexico City, and proposed to attempt the same if elected President, through tax code simplification. However he didn't propose the exchange of the progressive system by a flat rate, regressive scheme, like the one proposed by Calderon.

Posted by: pasilla | September 8, 2006 11:00 PM

Rodolfo:

Right from the centre of me.
Came the flames so passionate and free.
Burning a desirable sensation from deep within.
Love pulsates from my skin.
This is the way of my heart.
Myself to another man.
Love of mine was in demand.
Took from the innocence of my soul.
His heart made me whole.
It makes the way of my heart.
To the thought of my love's demeanour.
My efforts have been heard.
Bonded by the every nerve on static.
Our feelings tend to attract it.
That's the way of my heart.
Happens to be a timely liaison
Seems to be the tease of the sun.
The moment it was captured.
It boosted my stature.
A way of my heart.
A love force with no boundaries.
So glad that it found me.
kept on through the night.
Just to show me the morning light.
The way of my heart.

... just thinking about you

Posted by: emptyboxes | September 8, 2006 11:04 PM

September 8, 2006 11:04 PM

Is not mine.

Posted by: emptyboxes | September 8, 2006 11:09 PM

It's been quite amusing to witness the ideological evolution that emptyboxes has displayed along these months. First, everybody was blindly following AMLO. Later there was an imminent schism between him and PRD. Now everybody is part of a Mafia, including the UNAM. I wonder... if Calderon is so successful in everything he does, why is emptyboxes (and others like him) worried about what's going on? When emptyboxes talks about increasing violence, he most likely refers to the disruptions of Calderon's acts by Mexicans with every right to demonstrate against him. Don't feel sorry for AMLO, emptyboxes. I can assure you that he doesn't need the pity of people of your lot.

Posted by: pasilla | September 8, 2006 11:21 PM

"If the Mexican government continues making its main priority, to irrational extremes, the combat to inflation" Pasilla.

Pasilla, you are an absolute moron, for want of a better expression, if you think combating inflation is not important. Would you like to go back to the glory days of the 1970's and 80's when the poor, who you profess to care so much about, saw their incomes shrink on a daily basis, were completely shut out of the credit market, and saw real wages shrink by a factor of 50%.

The "irrational extreme" of combatting inflation has allowed for the most massive expansion of credit in Mexican history, BENEFITTING THE POOR (and middle class) more than any other sector (the rich always had access to dollar demoninated credit.), and today more Mexicans than ever in history own their own home, and more Mexicans than ever in history are financing cars. In the case of home finance loans, these are being offered to couples whose combined incomes are as low as 5 minimum wages. This is unprecedented.

Furthermore, during the inflationary mess that your heros Lopez Portillo and Echeverria left us, real wages, for the poor, declined at up to 10% a year, for decades. Not any more. They may not be rising much, but they are at least no longer falling.

Somehow I get the impression that you do not care about any of this. Like many leftists, for you, "the poor" are an abstract. You live in your ivory tower (DC, in your case, and please do not try to compare "poor" in DC with really poor in Mexico) and do not see the poor, except through your car windows, do not talk to the poor, and damn sure would not invite the poor into your home.

You should go out and talk to anybody in the bottom quintile of income who is over 40, and remembers the heyday of inflation, and ask him whether he cares about its defeat.

Unless inflation is down, NOTHING ELSE will improve economically. There will be no credit, no job creation, and no uplifting of the lower classes. But, there will be lots of opportunities for bleeding heart limosuine liberals like you to "help" the poor, and that, really, is all you and your ilk care about.

Posted by: Jerry B | September 9, 2006 12:40 AM

Inflation is the mother and father of unemployment.

Posted by: PeterN | September 9, 2006 01:48 AM

I would just add to all the good posts that some loans for someone's education make sense for a person to take out, or for something as nescessary as a car, as JerryB and rodolfo have touched on. Similarly, a government may borrow and invest in its people's education or in developing it's natural resources... there are a lot of great examples of borrowing wisely... but too much borrowing leads to debt crisis and defaults that raise the nation's interest rates as investors refuse to lend to the nation without a higher risk premium for future investments.

The Mexican government is trying to lower it's risk premium. AMLO probably thinks that the nation's risk profile can go to hell, as long as he gets to dance around in his invisible clothes in the middle of the street and have his PRD followers watch and nod approvingly at the fashion show. Won't some little kids in PRD families be unindoctrinated enough to shout out that the emperor has no clothes?

Pasilla, if I have to correct "lower intellectual" to describe you as a "lower-level intellectual," then you will also have to waste your time correcting your grammar and syntax. Believe me Pasilla, you have a lot more corrections to make on your posts than I do on mine, so let's just agree to get our points across unless you happen to have a lot more time on your hands than I do.

Let's focus on the ideas and issues. Does anyone on AMLO's side have any ideas on improving the nation's economy? Is "increase public works projects" really AMLO's main strategy to reduce Mexican poverty?

As rodolfo has pointed out, Mexico's been through that nightmare before. The 80's were a lost decade for growth in latin american countries that went so far left and spent so irresponsibly.
If pasilla is for reducing inequality, but not for growth or sound fiscal policy, is he also for the existance of chickens, but against the existance of eggs?

Just look at what the world's track records have been, pasilla. Let's follow the Asian Tigers' examples of high national and personal savings rates, investment, and individual pursuits of education. We could reduce poverty like they have, rather than fail again with the same old spend-til-we-run-out-of-money strategy. Or print more money and watch watch happens to prices, economic activity, and currency valuations strategy.

Not through with you yet pasilla, why does the sacrifice today for a better strategy sound bad to you just because it sounds "christian"... is christianity still so evil to the far left? Is that why the extremist AMLOsers stormed that mass?
Sacrificing cash hand-outs and excessive spending is an easy concept, isn't it?
Look at Lula de Silva in Brazil, he didn't end hunger by giving the poor stipends, he ended hunger by giving out food.

He was able to be a responsible lefty and Brazil's total national GDP finally caught up with Mexico again (they have a huge country and population, they should actually have a lot more money than they do).
Still because of Fox, we're richer per person that the Brazilians, we've avoided crises in mexico, look at all the affordable things that so many more mexicans can get, and the re-emergence of the middle class.

If you dare the PAN government to change mexico quicker, prove it. Tell your PRD representatives to support the PAN's policy reforms and then let the PAN be judge. If pasilla, AMLO's, and lower-level intellectuals from the cold-war era (that one's for you pasilla) will stop blocking reform, then the PAN could be judged even more strictly and we could really hold a better referendum on the pan's rule.
Again, if any leftists have a better, strategy, we would love to hear it.

Posted by: eljefejesus | September 9, 2006 03:32 AM

Pasilla: I really enjoy your pity efforts to reach the level of an intellectual when you write.
On the other hand, you call demonstrators to those UNAM punks who disrupted the right of President Elect Felipe Calderon to pay homage to Morelos.
But we are all very happy, those 100 demonstrators mean nothing against the millions of Mexicans who voted for Felipe.

This what you and AMLO and his UNAM punks and the CGH and all those trash cannot understand. The more they offend Felipe, the more the people reject them.

The Force of the Pacifics prevails in the end. And it is prevailing.

Posted by: emptyboxes | September 9, 2006 07:43 AM

So some AMLO anarchists managed to hack our site.

Well that´s just one more indication of how you view democracy.

Free speech? Not in AMLO laqnd....

Just another version of AMLO reality,.... stop the media "they´re not fair to me"

"I will make the tv and media more representative"


I will control all media outlets, like my friends in Cuba, Ven el suena, and Bol ieve its the the truth.

Posted by: PeterN | September 9, 2006 08:01 AM

emptyboxes,

I think I might know who wrote the 11:04 PM mellifluous rhapsody. I have two or three possible perps.

Will this be one wacky weekend?

I sure hope so!

AMLOids can rant and rave. Mexico can put up with protesters all the way to the 2012
presidential elections. We will see who gets the last laugh. Don't bet on PRD.
Protesting and disruption and coldblooded thuggery of the recent Oaxaca City sort add up and the concerned public is busy with their pencil and paper.

The grade on PRD voter preference since the plantonista People's Commissariat was installed: 20% of Mexicans would vote for PRD if an election were held today. Things are returning to normal historic levels at Commissariatyland, formerly PRD.

The People's Commissar is taking his band of fools down with him so fast they can't see the sh-t for the shinola.

Posted by: rodolfo | September 9, 2006 08:25 AM

Lord Windsor,

My yahoo email site was also hacked.

I'm devastated and will probably die a shrinking violet's death. I have been so exposed that I will have to move to some toasty Caribbean billionaire's island paradise and drown myself in pina coladas.

As of now my safe capitalist pig heaven has been shattered. I'll just have to make another billion or so to get myself together again.

These hacker warriors, cool to spend your time doing nothing, creating more fun and games for us to beat you at, really.

Posted by: rodolfo | September 9, 2006 11:54 AM

Pasilla, you seem to erroneously think that because Calderon won everybody who's against AMLO will be satisfied. Of course we're not. We're not satisfied with the poverty of our kin, with all the problems in the procurement of justice, the labor problem, etc, etc. Nothing is honky dory as you once posted. And still, your friends post falsehoods like Calderon fighting "tooth and nail" against a recount, massive fraud and others. Plus they keep threatening not to protest, which you can do all you want, but to continue impeding the normal life and work of others. That is what we worry over because at some point something is going to go wrong and violence will erupt. I don't particularly care to discuss who will start it, AMLO will always, always blame someone else (he uses the logic of the kidnapper: you might get hurt, but its not my fault, its your family's fault for not paying up). In the end that is what he wants, but not us, "Give me power or give me death". We worry about him breaking up our country, about him leading people to their graves. We will not shut up, we will not back down.

Posted by: Ariel R. Orellana | September 9, 2006 12:09 PM

Thank you, Jerry B! I'm not surprised by your epithets. I have read your ranting about better credit for Mexicans, oh, a dozen times before. How many minimum wages do $10 USD a day represent? Because more than 50 million Mexicans survive with that amount or less; who's getting credit for buying cars, then?

Nobody, not even me, has suggested in this blog that combating inflation, promoting growth, should not be government priorities; but fighting income inequality and poverty is not less important.

eljefejesus:

Once again, I need to know what "strategy" or at least "strategies" you are talking about, to see if I have in mind a better one. I'm having difficulties following what you want to argue about. As many of your kind, you cast opinions left and right about me and others without a clue of who we are or what we stand for. I find this behavior rather typical among right-wingers. To give you an example, you can easily find on Internet the economic proposal advanced by AMLO campaign team; but you prefer to babble without ever having spent any time in reading them. But as I said: no surprises in this department. I'll give you just an example of either non-sense or carelessness in your writing:

"Still because of Fox, we're richer per person that the Brazilians..."

My best effort to understand this statement of yours leads me to think about the income per capita; I'd assume that you, a "high-level intellectual," would understand that in the face of extreme income inequality this may be a very misleading number. I put it in this very blog in the following terms: Carlos Slim has the same income per capita than a huichol Indian selling crafts on the street...

emptyboxes:

You know how much I do care about your bigoted, borderline racist opinions; I just amuse myself with your distortions of reality; that's all.

Ariel R Orellana:

You write:

"We will not shut up, we will not back down..."

Fine with me; but in fairness, you should accept that the opinion of people who doesn't think like you is as protected as yours in a democracy, even if you strongly disapproved of the message. It's quite easy for anybody to classify him or herself as a democrat, if one only converses with people who think alike.

Keep all worrying about Mexico, then. You should. A sleepy giant is waking up. AMLO is only incidental in the process.

Posted by: pasilla | September 9, 2006 01:57 PM

Dear moron: (Pasilla) Without inflation control, NOTHING ELSE matters. Nothing at all. And, SOMEBODY is buying all those new houses going up, and it is not the rich. Again, as I mentioned, you profess to care in the abstract about the poor, but I doubt you do in person. I doubt you had much contact with them before you moved on to bigger and better things in the District. The poor, to you, are a vehicle to allow yourself to feel better (and perhaps line your pockets) by "helping" them.

Posted by: Jerry B | September 9, 2006 05:44 PM

who is pasilla???? mijo no tienes nada que hacer?

Posted by: mija | September 9, 2006 06:06 PM

Pasilla, don't be afraid to mention your own opinion on policy that should be implemented, don't just say whatever AMLO wants. If you have a mind of your own I am sure you see inperfections in some of his proposals. No policy choice is without costs for today or for the future.

Pasilla wrote:
'eljefejesus:
Once again, I need to know what "strategy" or at least "strategies" you are talking about, to see if I have in mind a better one. ... '

to which I reply, value added tax, changes to allow foreign investment in mexican energy sectors, continued reduction of the huge national debt, continued price stability / central bank independence, breaking up monopolies, reforming the tax code, improving labor flexibility... there are others, but I hope now you will be willing to share with us a couple of policies you yourself actually support and even why.

pasilla also wrote:
'As many of your kind, you cast opinions left and right about me and others without a clue of who we are or what we stand for. I find this behavior rather typical among right-wingers. ... you can easily find on Internet the economic proposal advanced by AMLO campaign team...'

again pasilla, think for yourself if you can. plus don't be a hypocrite and pretend to be offended about being stereotyped as a leftist and then sterotype me as a right-winger. that is just embarassing for you.

pasilla wrote:
'[quoting me] "Still because of Fox, we're richer per person that the Brazilians..."
My best effort to understand this statement of yours leads me to think about the income per capita; I'd assume...'

pasilla, your assumptions imply that mexico's per capita income is not important. your argument that you cannot compare mexico's per capita income to brazil's because mexico has huge inequality falls flat on its face when you consider that brazil has even greater inequality than mexico.
in fact, brazilians and argentinians continue to migrate to mexico for a better life because mexico has been stable and growing whereas brazil and argentina have had more recent economic crises related to overspending and deficits.

growth and income per person are important. fast growth in particular has a strong effect on the reduction of poverty. Don't you agree growing is more important for the long-term than spending what we have now until there is no more to spend?

let me quote another statistic:
In Mexico "the population below the poverty level has decreased from 24.2% to 17.6% in the general population and from 42% to 27.9% in rural areas from 2000-2004."

also:
"· Income per capita is $6,790, the highest in Latin America
· Life expectancy at birth is 74 years"

Most importantly, if you look at the poverty rates of countries with modern economic policies who have already reformed their economies like those in Asia, you will see how quickly poverty reductions have been taking place. Compare that to AMLO's project works program idea... does he want to copy FDR's track record whereby the US great depression remained for a decade of these public works projects? Does he want to copy the massive spending that led to so many developing countries' debt crisis?
It's an easy choice on how to fight poverty if you do your homework on the economics of the issue first.

Posted by: eljefejesus | September 9, 2006 06:38 PM

Double talk
Yes, thats what is what i mostly read from most of these Panistas supporters. A blog or 2 ago, I wrote about, the prices rising for the basics, like milk, bread, beans, tortillas, etc. I was attacked by Panistas and their chorts as simple. Not having a clue about economics. Basicly the term was, caca happens. Inflation happens, so live with it. But now I see these same Panistas supporters go on about how inflation is important to keep under control. Yeah, for new cars, and new condos, and that nice prep school or membership at some local campestre. But more than half of Mexico, is not worried about that. They worry about la leche, el pan, la azucar, el frijol. Those things that keep u alive. Breathing. If hunger is a constant friend to remind U that their around, U tend to get upset. When all one sees is those basics sky rocket. And they have gone so much higher. I quote
JerryB "Unless inflation is down, nothing else will grow economiclly". But some ppl here dont care about inflation for those things u need to exsit. Sure, once those needs are met, and u have way more to spend, then it becomes little more than a pesky fly. However, keep inflation down on those luxuries please. Keep costs down on that overseas vacation. Oh woe to the credit card company that wants to charge me higher rates. It must be nice to worry about that type of inflation, and so very happy that with these last couple of administrations, inflation has been whipped.
But for over 50 million mexicans. Millions of under norished kids, who go to school, if they can, on a empty promise of food. To the average worker who sees his paycheck blown by ever rising transportation cost, in unholy buses of torture. Here in the north, thats seems the only modes of public transportation, from Mty,(nice metro, built by orejas rumored to have been help thru lavado de dinero) thru torreon. And thou its more central, but in Guanajuato, San Luis Potosi, I could go all night listing them, its more of the same. Oh and of course in the south. Noxious fumes, running down the average Mexicano.
Who worries about the basics. Like I said, must be nice not to have to worry about that, and go tisk tisk tisk, to anybody who reminds U of that type of inflation.

The Mexican Miracle continues.

By the way, am being sarcastic about the Mexican miracle. Somebody, actually thought i was using it in a positive matter.

Posted by: maya0 | September 9, 2006 10:59 PM

Maya, why do I know it is you even before I see who wrote the return? You said "". But some ppl here dont care about inflation for those things u need to exsit"

You may not know this, because papi probably provides for you, but the prices of things which you need to "exsit" have gone up by a much smaller margin this sexenio than in the last 30 years.

If you are poor, what do you want and need? A roof over your head. Food and clothing for you and your family. A job. Cheap transportation to that job. Basic household items.
Inflation destroys all of that. Inflation like that given to us by MALO's populist role model, Lopez Portillo, make home loans for poor people impossible, because the bank cannot estimate how much money the poor person will make in a year, and whether or not he will have enough to pay off the loan. So, the poor person parachutes in somewhere, builds a shack, and enriches a PRD "lider" (who is almost certainly an ex PRIista" who will intercede with the authorities for him. Unlike the homes that the poor buy under Fox, the shack is not his, will not increase in value, cannot be sold, and cannot be used as collateral on a loan.

If food and clothing go up in price faster than your salary, as happened big time after Lopez Portillo, you either get a Papi, or you go without.

If you would like a job, the employer must have money to hire you. Triple digit inflation makes this difficult. If you manage to get a job anyway, public transportation fares that rise weekly because gasoline rose weekly under inflation eat up all your money.

Finally, basic household items like refrigerators, televisions, cell phones, and furniture are today available on CREDIT. Forget about that under inflation.

Moron.

Posted by: Jerry B | September 9, 2006 11:15 PM

Pasilla and Rodolfo:

The phrase came from Von Clausewitz and it is: War is a continuation of politics by other means.....not the other way around.

Posted by: Viper | September 10, 2006 12:16 AM

I repeat, inflation is lower and more stable now than it has been in a generation.

This is thanks in part to spending restraints, so aside from the economy being crisis free, the independent central bank is better able to keep the inflation rate under control.

AMLO is against this stability in prices; he would sacrifise it for short term gains from government spending and more votes for him. Just like a good 'ol ex-Priista selfishly accepting the vote of the uninformed voter like mayaO and pasilla.

Salinas also did this. He was, like AMLO, the old fashioned dinosaur type of politician who would pump up the economies with short-term spending blitzes for the PRI to remain popular and in power during the 1994 elections. Meanwhile, the debt financing, the current accounts deficit fed by huge short-term stimulation that could have been cooled by higher interest rates(but of course were not cooled by higher interest rates because this would not have been popular) led the economic crisis that officially began after the 1994 election was over.

Even the PRD people should be against such old, false, short-term promises of spend spend spend. The PRI has been punished at subsequent elections and must be learning that mexicans are catching on and now have the power to put their experiences to work in their vote. They'd better not try to pull the wool over all our eyes.
Now the PRD must learn this too, and old pri-istas like AMLO will not stop until we prove that promises to spend spend spend won't get him elected.

Most Mexicans (of all income levels) voted for other candidates than AMLO because they've seen that show before too, and it stinks of self-serving, power-hungry populism. Salina's PRI part 2.

Finally we have broken the pattern of election year crisis and meltdowns and already new PRI-type dinosaurs like AMLO want to spend their way into Mexican's hearts? Most Mexicans are not that stupid... some are just desperate because it is hard to wait for real reform and easy to wait for a miracle. That is why we need reform.

See the 6:38pm eljefejesus post on some responsible reforms we need.

On the other hand, some PRDedistas are just selfish because they expect a PRD government job. Some are just old leftists dinosaurs including some intellectuals who had been influenced by Marxists in the 60's and 70's. But the Marxist and populist track-record is on displant in the history books of the world, on the internet, on the frong-pages of crisis-ridden economies.

You want to end poverty? Look at who has done it and how. Let's just say it wasn't the miracle-promisng spend-crazy populists.

Posted by: eljefejesus | September 10, 2006 03:49 AM

In other words JerryB is right and MayaO is wrong.
I think she wants to argue that small price increases are not acceptable under Fox, even though huge price increases are commonplace under populists like AMLO.

Posted by: eljefejesus | September 10, 2006 04:10 AM

Viper,

Of course I know the phrase is by Clausewitz, I wiki.

It suits this confrontational blog to bend and twist ideas to suit your argument.

Still, political or war campaigns have the same urgent purpose of prevailing over your opponent.

What is exasperating to me is that all kinds of you-should-know-better nay sayers want to muzzle in an all out effort to win.

By curtailing the freedom of speech rights of any and all involved in the campaign process, we all lose. The president, his wife, mother and his sister have a right to speak up say or do as they please for any candidate they like.

If Fox was such a lousy president, it should have tainted Calderon's effort. Al Gore in distancing himself from Clinton would not be in the same state where Clinton was visiting during his 2000 presidential campaign.

Heads of state around the world routinely endorse candidates for office. Let's not be prissy and sanctimonious about the reality of democratic elections.

Posted by: rodolfo | September 10, 2006 06:43 AM

nice jerryb, u sure are good a knowing what a moron is. When u look in a mirror.

Posted by: maya0 | September 10, 2006 02:55 PM

el jefe jesse
When has AMLO been at the control of the economic engine of Mexico? Never right? So where do u get off comparing him to anybody? Hes unique, as we all are. And when I state, item by item, that under the PAN, the basics have gone thru the roof, am not saying that under the PRI it was better. No way, it was worse. But the PAN has not done better with the basics. Why is that so hard to accept. Yes its better now for buying homes and cars, and (that actually started with Zedillo) and thats good, but for the gran majority of Mexicans, it dont affect them at all. What so hard to understand? Go back and find out the price of tortillas, like i did. 3pesos a kilo when Fox began. Its now 8pesos. How is that an improvment? Explain that to me. No one can, and JerryB even calls me names. That means that under FECAL, its going to be around 13pesos. Thats a good thing? U know, George Orwell had it right about 1984, cept no one knew he was writing about Mexico, with all these PANistas with their doublethink.

Posted by: maya0 | September 10, 2006 03:10 PM

JerryB dies to figure me out. I don't have anything to explain, I don't apologize for who I am. eljefejesus has sentenced that maya0 and I are uninformed voters, just because we trascend "Reforma." Well, well, what do you know? As usual, JerryB, insults reveal more about who proffers them than about whom they are directed to.

Posted by: pasilla | September 10, 2006 03:15 PM

Oh, Pasilla, my heart positively bleeds for you. YOU of all people are upset by insults? Boo bloody hoo. Quit whining and stop insulting others by implying that only you and your kind care about the poor, and maybe you will get treated with a little more respect.

Posted by: Jerry B | September 10, 2006 03:51 PM

Maya, excuse me, but "The PAN has not done better with the basics"? How is it, then, that absolute poverty has dropped drastically under Fox? Or is that not a "basic"? And, since when do the poor not care about home ownership? Or are they more cute to you squatting on somebody elses land, or living in shacks in flood plains?

Posted by: Jerry B | September 10, 2006 03:58 PM

pasilla,

I thought this morning about your earlier postings.

There is an unmistakable whiff of patronasing condescension whenever you choose to make a pointed remark about the author posting her/his argument.

Racism or social bias is a two way street.
You do not have the monopoly on virtue. Your arguments are yours and not the Holy Bible or God's Voice speaking from high above.

We are all opining here, sometimes on the go, sometimes putting a little more thought into the wordsmithing.

Your constant underhanded put-downs are a kind for of bias of the worst kind: reactive, pontificating, sanctimonious.

We can have a difference of opinion and welcome the consequences of our spoutings but do not attack what we all do the same:
opinionate, caution be damned.

Your cautious remarks mirror that which you find fault in others.

Posted by: rodolfo | September 10, 2006 05:03 PM

Jerryb
U are a good example of "blindread". The ability to read something, yet fail to see what it means or what it says. I think its a good orwellian term. When in my last post did I say the poor didnt care about housing? Cant find it right? I wrote that most are not affected, not that they didnt care about having a home. Who doesnt? But putting food in belly, is up near the top of the list of things to do, if not the most important. And with FOX, and soon FECAL, the basics food items, I need not repeat them, are going to be forgoton once again.
Why does this upset u, and Panitas in general? When Fox took over, a liter of milk was 4 pesos. Now at the little store at the corner, it cost 9 pesos 50cents.
How is that an impromvment for the majority of Mexicans who worry about things like that? Why cant I get a answer? U see. Blindread.

Posted by: maya0 | September 10, 2006 06:34 PM

pasilla, I've never tried to muzzle anybody, unlike some silly little thugs who claim that I'm somehow endagering democracy and thus, complain to my coworkers. I don't question the fact that AMLO protests, I question HOW he protests. He orders his followers to block streets, to impede access to tribunals, the PAN and the President from delivering their addresses. THAT is the type of protest I'm against.

A PRD voter friend of mine who lives in Mexico City was riding in the car of a PAN voter, who had a sticker asserting that fact. The car was pelted, kicked, hit and people demanded they roll down their windows (you might want to guess why) when they were riding near the TEPJF blockade. THAT is the type of "protest" I'm against.

The PRD couln't convince the Tribunal about their arguments so now they try to force a constitutional crisis by impeding Calderon from swearing in. THAT is the type of "protest" I'm against.

All of those are not "democratic" protests, are they?

Posted by: Ariel R. Orellana | September 10, 2006 06:47 PM

Maya, what exactly is your point? Prices rise. So do wages. And, under Fox, for the first time in my life, wages have kept up with prices, primarily due to low inflation. If you think MALO and his economic fantasies are going to lower inflation, you are nuts. Are you advocating price freezes? Those have worked real well in countries where they have been tried...

Posted by: Jerry B | September 10, 2006 06:53 PM

Heres a intresting little item off the tribune.

Asuncion Garcia, 33, had the day off from his fulltime job at McDonalds in Orland Park and was making a Sunday night run to Dunkin Donuts on his bicycle, his sole means of transportation.

Garcias life, the McDonalds job, the bike and the nearby arpartment he shared with three men,revolved around sending as much money as he could to his wife and four children, including one born just days ago, in Mexico.

Shortly before 10pm. Sunday as Garcia rode on the median near the Dunkin Donuts, in the 14400 block of La Grange Road, he was struck by two vehicles in succession. Less than an hour later, he was pronounced dead from multiple injuries in Advocate Christ Medical Center in Oak Lawn.

Police said Garcia, of the 14400 block of Jerrerson Avenue, was riding north when he was struck by the first car, a 1999 Oldsmobile driven by a 16 year old boy.

The teen, who was driving south, was entering the median and preparing to make a left turn into a coffee shop. Police said the driver swerved to the left to avoid hitting Garcia, but struck him anyway.

Garcia was thrown to the right and then was hit by another vehicle, a 2005 chey, also driven by a 16 year old boy.

A thrid car, driven by an 18 year old man, was heading north on La Grange when it was sideswiped by the Oldsmobile after it hit the bike. The drivers were not hurt.

Police said the incident remained under investigation and no tickets had been issued. There was no indication drugs or alcohol played a role in the accident , police said.

Garcias brother, Jesus, who lives nearby and works at a local pizza parlor, was driving down the street when he saw the accident. He said a police officer called him over and asked whether he knew the bicyclist.

He told me he was no longer alive, Jesus Garcia said.

Jesus, 40 said hes now trying to raise several thousand dollars to send his brother back to Mexico and to pay for the funeral.

Asuncion Garcia was trying to save enough to buy his family a house, his brother said, adding that he now will try to send some money. He already had made the tough phone calls to Mexico.

I feel so sad sometimes I cry myself, Jesus Garcia said.

Presciliano Calletano, 43, a co worker and roommate of Asuncion Garcia, said He was a good man, a good worker, responsible, not a drinker. We want to know exactly what happen to him.

At the McDonalds, less than a block from the accident scene, Naisha Byrd, 30 a manager said Garcia, know as Jose at the restaurant, would sometimes take extra shifts and work 48hour weeks as a maintenance man. He arrived early every day for his 5 am shift.

He was alwyas standing outside before I even got here. Byrd said. This store will never be the same. He did it all. I never had to tell him what to do. He just did it.

Byrd said she missed Garcia when he would go on vacation to Mexico.

Weve never had anybody like him in 8 years, and we never will, she said.

Co workers are trying to help raise money, she said, to send Jose home.
End of story.

The Mexican Miracle continues.

Dont u love how they had to call him Jose?
And when the cop ask if they knew him, assuming all mexicans probally know each other?

Posted by: maya0 | September 10, 2006 07:00 PM

Jerryb
No. Wages have not kept up with the rising costs. What seems to have freezed are wages, not prices. Did u not post that controlling inflation is the most important thing to be done? Why hasnt this happen for staple items? Oh, and explain what ever happen to the famous Tortibonos. Ever heard of them? If your poor in Mexico, u have. That was eliminated by FOX. Some tortillerias have had to close down, because the poor, who where their major customers, had no more tortibonos to spend for tortillas.
Man, even capitilist USA has food stamps for its poor. How was eliminating tortibonos good for the poor in Mexico?
Explain that? But I forgot u suffer from blindread, and your just going to call me another name.

Posted by: maya0 | September 10, 2006 07:11 PM

Maya, yes they have. Check the relevant statistics.

By the way, what exactly does the second above post have to do with the elections?

Posted by: Jerry B | September 10, 2006 07:25 PM

Jerryb
Perhaps wages in your sector of the economy has kept paced with inflation, but the millions upon millions of more Mexicans who scratch out a living on less than 50pesos a day, would not agree, statistics or no statistics.

And the post that u mentioned. How come so many Mexicans have to live, and die in the USA, if everything is so fine in Mexico, and everybody voted again for the PAN?

Maybe he had just had a thing for 48 hour work weeks.

Posted by: maya0 | September 10, 2006 08:12 PM

Does anybody want to answer why the PAN eliminated the tortibonos? Somehow I think some people who voted for the PRI, remember the small but usefull handouts from the PRI goverment, and voted for the PRI.

What makes PANistas think, that these people, in a run off election between AMLO and FECAL,would have voted for the PAN? When the PAN took away the tortibonos?

The PANistas are for socialist programs for the rich, like the bail out for bankers. And Capitalist for the great unwashed.

Posted by: maya0 | September 10, 2006 08:21 PM

I heard a funny argument one day that whenever you describe something with orwellian language that your argument automatically sounds a little better... but I don't believe anyone who says that you automatically win.

I think the big picture we all agree on is improving Mexico by reducing poverty in the long run. AMLO's cash hand out promises and public works projects are tried and tested miserable failures in the world. It is hard to believe the promises of the latest populist politician that promises these cash goodies will make Mexico a better place this time.

The people that voted for change from mexico's decades of poverty got it when calderon was confirmed. AMLO's PRD supporters may still try to block growth measures like they always have because they want to be the only saviors of the poor. That is wrong. It is time to give Calderon his opportunity to push reforms that Fox could not push through Congress. Even without them he was able to reduce poverty more that old spend-happy politicians.

AMLO can waive his arms and scream and cry, but I think the majority of Mexicans have grown tired of him and they are right to move on.

Posted by: eljefejesus | September 10, 2006 08:25 PM

Maya, I have a feeling that the "millions upon millions" (less actually) who "scratch out a living" on 50 Pesos a day are thrilled to death that the triple digit inflation that was the legacy of the last MALOesque president (Lopez Portillo) is gone. Inflation does not affect the children of the rich, like you, as your kind keep your assets in dollars in the hated United States. It affects the poor. And, under Fox, less so.

As to why do people see the need to go to the United States? It might have something to do with a lack of job creation here, something that the PRI/PRD dominated congress during Fox's term did exactly nothing to fix. No reforms to the labor law to allow at will hiring and firing, no reforms to union law to squash corrupt union leaders allied to the PRD/PRI, no tax reforms to encourage more official jobs and less in the black market. Do not blame Fox for this, rather, look in the mirror.

Posted by: Jerry B | September 10, 2006 08:47 PM

Jerryb, what part of TJ do u need to go to confirm that their is more poor than ever?
Because all u go on is numbers that u read in the paper. Instead try taking a probally long road trip from the fancy guarded gate communite u live in. U will find a real Mexico, that brims with despair. Why not tell that shoeless child at just about any intersection, that they are not doing what the statistics say. Tell her to stop it. Shes ruining your often quoted numbers.

El jefe jesse
You critize AMLO for handing out. The only hand outs where the monthly checks to old folks. What do u call when the PRI PAN, handed out the bailout to the bankers and their rich friends? Oh yes, u dont call it a handout, but a bailout.

Double think. Its u guys going orwellian on us, its not my fault.

Posted by: maya0 | September 10, 2006 09:20 PM

Try making a long road trip? Maya old girl, I have been EVERYWHERE. All 31 states. Multiple times. Driving. Things are generally lousy. BUT, they are less lousy than they were 6 years ago. As to Tijuana, you can measure poverty by how long it takes to drive across town at 7PM on a workday. The drive gets longer every year. Which means, that more people are driving more cars to more jobs. That, better than any statistic (which corraborate what I am saying too) proves that poverty is decreasing, and wealth is increasing.

Posted by: Jerry B | September 10, 2006 09:21 PM

jerryb
You also mentioned lack of job creation, because FOXs hands are tied. Well in torreon, we have had new sams club and H E B stores etc pop up, almost over night. Wages tend to be higher than average in those places, however a pittence compared to the cost of living here in La Laguna. And these new job created have no unions to contend with. No corrput union bosses their to affect them. These where offical jobs created. No black market jobs to avoid taxes. How can this be, if FOX cant get anything done because of congress? U would think zero investments coming from outside, but nope.
With wages so low, and no unions that bother them, how could they not invest?
No wonder migrants from Mexico kept the pace up during the FOX years. Any body want to bet that massive migration will continue with FECAL at even higher numbers?Lets hope not, but with the same players in the same positions, with the same ideas, how can it be otherwise?

Posted by: maya0 | September 10, 2006 09:45 PM

About the Tortibonos:

The program was cancelled because meny people were enrolled in the program up to 6 times ane they were getting more stamps than the other families. And we are talking about middle-low class people who would cash the Tortibonos and then sell the tortillas at a regular price. They were a bunch of opportunists who saw on this program a chance to make some bussiness. What the government did was to clean up the lists and leave just the families who truly need this help. Now the tortillas are reaching the poorest people in the country.

About the economical stability and wages vs. prices: Just this morning I found an old store ticket from 1998 and the prices hasn'r rised that much. The economical stability that we have witnessed this last 9 years is on the best interest of the poor. Someone who lives in a cardboard hut can plan ahead and save money so that in the next three or four years they can build their own house with cement thanks to the stability of the prices. They can buy a fridge, a bed even an old car planning and saving for the following years since their fifty pesos they earn today are still going to be worth fifty pesos the next year, unlike the times of Echeverría and De la Madrid, when those same fifty pesos were worth twenty pesos the next day, and ten pesos the following week. With high inflation, that chance is completely out of their reach since the poor can never save enough money to keep up with the prices.

With this I'm not saying that our economy works perfectly well. Of course, there are a lot of things that we need to change in the very immediate future. But to discredit one of the best accompplishments of our past two administration is a completeley different thing. We all need to acknowledge that as a positive thing. Period.

Just a fact: people who work on the streets here in Mexico city earn up to $500 pesos per day. Multiply that for 30 days and you'll get $15 000 per month. I've known secretaries who earn less than that. Obviously, it is a high risk job and no one should be working on the streets, it is totally inhuman, but there is more than meets the eye.

Posted by: bunburina | September 10, 2006 09:47 PM

jerryb
well jerry u old lady, U should try driving other than those expensive toll roads that dont get near the real Mexico.

Try the libre, aviod all the pot holes, the oncoming burros and 40 year old passenger buses. Oh, and about their being so many more cars, well, how come u dont see very much cars on those toll roads? They seem really empty of cars and trucks. We have several that criss cross parts of durango here, and they always appear as empty as the desert hills, or FOXs promises now FECALs promises of growth.

Posted by: maya0 | September 10, 2006 09:50 PM

Maya, you do not see many cars on the toll roads because they are ridicously expensive. DUH!!! Luckily we (still) live in a free country where we can choose what roads we will drive on.
And, if you can me on a map a toll road running along the Oaxaca coast From, say, Acapulco GRO to Arriaga, Chips, or one from Puerto Escondido to Tierra Verde, Ver, I will be truly impressed.

Posted by: Jerry B | September 10, 2006 10:05 PM

Tierra Blanca, not Tierra Verde, my bad

Posted by: Jerry B | September 10, 2006 10:07 PM

bunburina
With 500pesos a day begging at car windows, no wonder u see more and more people doing that. But it must be such a exception to the rule of that life, its a oddity.
Sures theirs been some improvement. And its a start. Prices have kept cool on some big ticket items. And things like DVDs have come down to prices down right amazing. But u cant eat a movie. U cant feed your kids curious george.

The basics have gone up, and that affects the poor and the underemployed. It may not affect u people who are neither poor or unemployed, but those of us who are, well, where still waiting for things to look up. With FECAL promsing to be FOX round 2, it looks like another long wait.

Posted by: maya0 | September 10, 2006 10:11 PM

Jerryb
Well, if the toll roads are so expensive, their wheres the whip inflation now that you seem to suggest that FOX has accomplished? So what if their more expensive. If things are so looking up, then their should be more drivers on them roads. But nope, nada.

bunburina
U mentioned that their is still tortibonos in Mexico. Wow, people in Nazareno Dgo, would love to know where. Its a tiny dot, so small it probally isnt even on a map. All without exception are poor. Maybe 5 familys out of 300 are considered well off.
So thanks to them, if what your saying is true, the rest of those poor slobs get zip?Its just to simple to believe. More like FOX took one look at where he was going to cut back on money from the goverment, and he axed it. See he had need for these cabins behind the Pinos, and more for his ranch. Oh and some towels.....and some dresses for Martha.....

By the way. That was the 1st thing Fox as the goverment did. Build those cabins. His 1st act as president in spending the public taxes. A love shack. What a country
I wonder what FECAL first spending of the public hard working money will be on? A face change for his lovely wife? Believe me, nobody would complain a bit.

Posted by: maya0 | September 10, 2006 10:26 PM

Maya, may I ask WHY you are unemployed? You have some modicum of intelligence, you speak some English, you have been to school in the hated Jewnited States. Are you unemployed because there are NO jobs, or are there just no jobs for American trained artists? If it is the second situation, please look for sympathy elsewhere.

Posted by: Jerry B | September 10, 2006 10:27 PM

Maya also seems to either ignore or rather not mention the fact that more and more of those illegal migrants are people who leave their jobs here in Mexico, not unemployed people. I personally know 4 people who went to the US, all of them had jobs with benefits but wanted to get more money for various reasons, from starting a business to just plain wanting more dough. When over there, even when they got better-than-minimum-wage jobs, they still looked for handouts from charity organizations that help migrants. The issue is not as simple as you make it out to be.

Also, you continually question how can anyone subsist on minimum wage. You obviously have no contact at all with the business world. I can tell you that at my place of work we've sometimes helped people out by registering them as employees so they can get access to IMSS day care centers. They do not really work for us and they pay the taxes the company incurrs for registering them. It might surprise you to know that the company cannot actually register anyone as earning minimum wage because it would IMMEDIATELY be investigated because no one actually gets paid minimum wage. Actually, I'm exaggerating a little. The company would not be investigated, they simply cannot register anyone at minimum wage, they will be turned back.

Posted by: Ariel R. Orellana | September 11, 2006 12:07 AM

where is emptyboxes and K. Vronna?

is it possible they made the trip to Mexico City to that failure of concentration at the Plaza de Toros Mexico?

it is wonderful to see all those FECALISTAS who support his elected-President. I hardly see the poor FECAL boy doing all his 6 years at the big chair.

hey guys, did you get at least your torta and Coca? all by courtesy of our great Chente Fox
if you want to have a good laugh come a check it out at senderodelpeje.com.
Cheers for our next President

Posted by: Anti-Yunque | September 11, 2006 12:10 AM

maya zero

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. "

Tortillas are tortillas, a future may cost a little moe.

Posted by: PeterN | September 11, 2006 01:59 AM

or mayby "More"

Posted by: PeterN | September 11, 2006 02:07 AM

Another thing mayaO, pasilla, and such people never mention is a policy proposal other than spend spend spend on public works projects and cash hand outs.

Welcome to the USSR part II (this time they promise it will do more than make everyone equally poor). Even the US doesn't pretend to be able to afford its entitlement program Social Security, but Mexico is surely ready to start its own.

maya0, do you have your own policy proposals? pasilla chickened out and didn't have a single thought of his own to mention, in answer to a request for a policy proposal, he suggested I look up AMLO's website. maybe you will have a better suggestion? or at least maybe you can defend your attack on the bank bailout with an intelligent discussion on what the benefits and costs are of bailing out or not bailing out the bank. i suggest you read up on it first, though. you wouldn't want to raise a subject you know absolutely nothing about, right?

The Mexican voters are moving on. Former AMLO voters should quicken their retreat before they embarrass themselves and their country any further.

You know, in a Decomocracy, there are elections more than once. If you have electoral reforms to suggest too, let's hear those while you're at it.

Anything intelligent or respectable from AMLO's camp would be very welcome about now.

Posted by: eljefejesus | September 11, 2006 02:20 AM

Anti-Yunque,

Yes, the little fecal boy won't sit in the chair 6 years. FOX will sit another six years in the high and mighty Chair.

The little boy will be doing his fecalimos as litlle diaper children do. FOX, the PRI humiliator, the People's Commissar (el roostercito) vanquisher, the husband of Boss MARTITA, will do some more perdedista whipping.

Welcome to the 100 year PANISTA presidential domination.

Posted by: rodolfo | September 11, 2006 07:45 AM

eljefejesus:

Did I ever propose: "spend, spend, spend"? I have been trying, unsuccessfully, to send a detailed response to one of your arrogant previous posts. Save your cockiness. Among other things I said in the message that I couldn't post was that I got a life and that I won't post unless a new post from Ceci is added. I'm not afraid (?) of saying what I think; why should I? I only think that many of the same issues have been discussed here for months, but obviously you don't care about the long queue in this blog, and believe that the only "respectable and intelligent person" is you. Well, dream on. It may be good for your self esteem.

Posted by: pasilla | September 11, 2006 12:27 PM

Keep dreaming rodolfo - all those pro-yunque nuts will see an end to their stupid actions. Sooner or later, but won't last 100 years. trust me

Posted by: Anti-Yunque | September 11, 2006 12:52 PM

All the bad things of el Yunque, intolerance, bigotry, stupid economic policies, hatred of "the other", all are on display right now. You only have to go to the Zocalo. And, if that is not enough, listen to one of MALO's speeches.

Posted by: Jerry B | September 11, 2006 03:40 PM

Looks like pasilla has again refused to submit a policy proposal on this blog again... he says it is too long even though it is smaller in kilobites than fox's farewell address blog. All we ask for is one policy proposal to replace one of the Calderon proposals he attacks.
I guess all we know about his opinions is from his last direct response, which was that AMLO's website has his policies. Oh well, we will assume he is for whatever AMLO is for.

For the record, I don't believe that I am the only intelligent and respectable person here of which pasilla accuses me. I just think intelligence and respectability has been lacking from the radical leftists who stll support AMLO's madness. It take only a little bit of intelligence and respectability to be able to tell that AMLO has gone off the deep end. If that had ever been my candidate, I would be embarrassed by now and be waiting for the next mid-term elections to regroup.

Fortunately for the sake of news and this blog, we have the September 16 competing government to look forward to. I do congratulate the AMLO people for backing down from the September 16 showdown with the millitary, that would have been treason. Maybe AMLO is re-emerging from his post-loss madness.

Maybe the serious discussions between the left and right can begin again?

Posted by: eljefejesus | September 11, 2006 04:23 PM

----------------GOLIATH LOST---------------

If you like Lopez you won't like this:

http://www.cronica.com.mx/nota.php?id_nota=260642

Posted by: rodolfo | September 11, 2006 05:16 PM

eljefejesus:

"he says it is too long even though it is smaller in kilobites than fox's farewell address blog..."

Once again, wht the heck are you talking about?

You and your truncated statistics:

In Mexico "the population below the poverty level has decreased from 24.2% to 17.6% in the general population and from 42% to 27.9% in rural areas from 2000-2004."


You forgot to add, from the same source (the Wold Bank) the following:

"The urban poverty rate, however, got stuck at 11.3 percent."

In addition, a big factor in reduction of rural poverty was... remittances from immigrants in the US, hardly a source of pride for the government.

Posted by: | September 11, 2006 05:22 PM

to the last post without a stated author,
you wrote:
"In addition, a big factor in reduction of rural poverty was... remittances from immigrants in the US, hardly a source of pride for the government."

and what would the other factors be in the reduction of poverty? so remittances continue, what do you want to do about that, outlaw and banish them so you can say that all the factors in the reduction of poverty bring pride to the government?

you also had a question about the other statistic on the size of this blog, you called it a truncated statistic and asked what the heck I was talking about.
you want to see the kilobytes for the blogs?

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/mexicovotes/2006/
It's one of my favorites shortcuts so I can join whichever new blog comes ups and has some action going.
click on folder #9.
(it's good to be on vacation).

Posted by: eljefejesus | September 11, 2006 05:50 PM

eljefejesus:

The anonymous posting was mine (my mistake). It appears that even on vacation you avoid reading with care. The citation that I was talking about was:

In Mexico "the population below the poverty level has decreased from 24.2% to 17.6% in the general population and from 42% to 27.9% in rural areas from 2000-2004."

That was yours; it comes from the World Bank. The truncation I was talking about referred to what you conveniently forgot to add to the citation:

"The urban poverty rate, however, got stuck at 11.3 percent."

In summary, poverty in Mexico (extreme and moderate) hovers around 48%. That was all.

And I still don't understand what you are talking about, concerning the size of the blog. What blog? In reality, I don't care. Have a nice life.

Posted by: pasilla | September 11, 2006 06:18 PM

The article from La Cronica that Rodolfo posted makes some very specific accusations regarding MALO. I am wondering if any of the PRDista supporters would be willing to read the article, and refute (refute, not call the author a member of el Yunque or a fascist) the accusations.

Somehow I doubt it....

Posted by: Jerry B | September 11, 2006 07:54 PM

La cronica? Pls, that the most biased Orejas owned site on the net.
By the way Jerryb, nobodys looking for anything from the likes of ppl like U.
I neither need it, or want it. Am quite fine thank u.
Hope everyone has a nice OBL day!

Posted by: maya0 | September 11, 2006 08:23 PM

Maya, whats the matter, can't refute them? Either these accusations are true or not. If not, please show how. If you can....Which I doubt.

Posted by: Jerry B | September 11, 2006 10:02 PM

ok pasilla, no need to react exactly like MALO reacted and get bitter or anything.

my response stll applies:
"and what would the other factors be in the reduction of poverty? so remittances continue, what do you want to do about that, outlaw and banish them so you can say that all the factors in the reduction of poverty bring pride to the government?"

I guess what truly matters is that we see if your side is willing to put Calderon's policies to the test (or maybe the PRD is too afraid to let them be the ones to continue to reduce poverty).

Basically it is over for MALO and any faithful PeRDedistas he has remaining. I am sure that not taking on the army will allow him to retreat with some semblance of dignity. I commend him for finally becoming a man... or is he still going to go on with that phony government with no tax collection or open election...
alas, we can still only ask so much of him during his ongoing lunacy.

the last leader that went so deeply into lunacy gave lunacy it's name: caligula, a roman emperor. the people had too high hopes for him too, just like AMLO. unfortunately, he started dressing like a woman and acting like a selfish dictator from there (but worse than amlo). rather than comparing his egg trowing, face spitting, unyielding confrontations to martin luther kng and ghandi, he should read about caligula. eventually, tired of his cookiness and evil against those that offended him, his own people killed him.

look out amlo, pasilla and maya0 will tire of you and will come to get you next. then his complots and conspiracies will finally leave some absolute, conclusive proof and won't be balanced against both candidates... after all, calderon's own people are not growing tired of calderon.

Posted by: eljefejesus | September 12, 2006 03:50 AM

Bullet proof glass, for Fox to hide behind when he gives el grito. Why If hes so loved? Must be that hes worried about the dirty election that just passed, and the illegal FECAL taking the presidency.
He shouldnt worry. History will be his judge. Not some killer from a rooftop.

Posted by: maya0 | September 12, 2006 09:13 AM

Check this out:

Plantea PRD Presidencia de tres años para Calderón o AMLO

La propuesta sobre una Presidencia de Transición parte de que el mandatario electo acepte el recuento uno a uno de los sufragios de la elección, señala el portavoz del sol azteca, Gerardo Fernández Noroña

http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/374651.html

The PRD seems like a contest of who comes up with the craziest idea. First, that the PRD states give their taxes to the alternate government when 70% of the money the states get comes from the federation. Nice try to leave Michoacán, Zacatecas and Chiapas in total bankruptcy. Second, skip the Constitution and have a three year president, and only if, the PAN accepts the PRD's terms.

In which planet are they living in?

They aren't interested in dialogue. They aren't interest in the well being of the entire country. As Fernández Noroña said, they are determined to bring this government down, regardless of the consequences to the people and to Mexico. Mexico is one, at the end of the day, Slim and the poor live in the same country within the same structure and when you bring the country down, you destroy everything for everyone. For them is the presidency or nothing. The country can go to hell for what they care as long as AMLO can sit on the presidential chair.

Posted by: bunburina | September 12, 2006 01:46 PM

bunburina,

Orellana's is up and running. I have some immensely wise opinions already in.

Norona is not nuts, he's a teenager with a microphone. Can someone shut this idiot up, please.

A grateful Nation holds its breath expectantly.

Posted by: rodolfo | September 12, 2006 03:22 PM

It is like Hitler at the end of the war. If Mexico goes down in flames, that will just be because the Mexicans were not worthy of MALO.

Posted by: Jerry B | September 12, 2006 03:57 PM

JerryB,

You got that right. The bunker rants from doomed souls cannot contain their serial ineptness.

Blame the gardener, blame the butler, demand a purification, ask for a minisexenio. What next, ask for a perdedista special Office of the Presidency of the New Alternative Nation, right in Palacio Nacional.

Lopez had plans for a quaint two room apartment as living quarters for himself.

Totally Palacio.

Posted by: rodolfo | September 12, 2006 04:54 PM

JerryB, at least Hitler had the self-respect to commit suicide. AMLO would rather live his life a crazy loser before the victory of the all the other parties.

AMLOsers, how would you have liked it if we had behaved as you do at an AMLO victory?

Posted by: eljefejesus | September 12, 2006 04:56 PM

FECAL or the country goes down in flames.
Is that not the rethoric that was used in the campain for FECAL?
FECAL cried wolf, and now hes boo hooing.
Shows what kind of presidency hes going to have. What a wimp.
Histroy will judge him along with FOX, for betraying democracy in Mexico. The whole world watches as this little pig of a man, who wallows in FECAL, stinks to high heaven. Its not Mexico fault that he picked such a fea mujer as a wife. Why must he take it out on all of us?
Hitler imposed his will on Germany, not unlike FECAL has been imposed on Mexico.
Pobresito de nosotros, pero nimodo. Hey maybe that why FECAL married a medusa.
Hes hoping to turn his detractors to stone!
But the only thing turing to stone is the Gross National Product.


Posted by: maya0 | September 12, 2006 05:00 PM

hmmm, very convincing argument. how could anyone believe that calderon is more qualified than amlo when you put it that way. so you call his wife ugly and say he rolls around in feces like a pig. that does make amlo sound just a little bit better.

also, you say MALO has not imposed his will on people like hitler did, although you do have a problem with that argument given the zocalo and the speech incident. he does seem to be imposing his will on the people just a little bit.

maybe if we pacify the delusional little napoleon by giving him some land in the south of mexico, maybe he will stop riling up the people against the stable and respectable government. THAT will work.

just remember that when a leftist eventually wins the mexican presidency, that he/she had better not rely on the electoral court or the IFE for legitimacy. in fact, there will be a competing government and such a dictatorial hitler won't be allowed to rule. that is the way we do politics in mexico from now on, right?

Posted by: eljefejesus | September 12, 2006 05:42 PM

Desautorizan propuesta sobre Presidencia de transición

Dirigentes perredistas y colaboradores de Andrés Manuel López Obrador desmintieron a su propio vocero, Gerardo Fernández Noroña, por proponer a Felipe Calderón el diálogo a cambio de aceptar el recuento de votos de la elección presidencial

http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/374721.html

A little coherence within the party wouldn't hurt...

Posted by: bunburina | September 12, 2006 05:55 PM

eljefechuy - poor little sh*t... "eljefe" ... give me a break looser

Posted by: psych | September 12, 2006 06:18 PM

We have heard that AMLO's support is on decline. But here are the numbers. The polls were made by Ulises Beltrán y Asociados BGC.

86% disapprove the PRDistas taking the stand on september 1st
76% have a negative image of the PRD since september 1st, 25% more than with Ahumada's videos which was 51%

The Tribunal's decision was perceived with:
tranquility: 38%
happiness: 9%
anger: 10%
deception: 9%

The certainty of the tribunal's decision: 59%
77% agree with the decision of the Tribunal
29% doesn't agree with their decision
59% think the election was clean
35% think there was a fraud

Just a 7% continue supporting AMLO's resistance

Trust on the IFE:
47% a lot of trust
16% regular

63% think Felipe Calderón is a good choice for the country
76% disapproves AMLO rejecting the Tribunal's decision
20% agree with him
60% is against the National Demecrotic Convention in the Zócalo
85% are against the plantones in Reforma and Zócalo
68% are worried for AMLO's behaviour
61% think AMLO should accept thhe opportunity for dialogue that Calderón is offering him
59% have a negative image of AMLO
24% have a positive image of AMLO

If you want to check it out (there is more of it) here's the link:

http://www.bgc.com.mx/

Posted by: bunburina | September 12, 2006 06:19 PM

GOYO2, yes there were numerous challenges in Florida 2000, but never a full recount, and we're talking nearly 3 million votes each for Bush & Gore. But this was NOT a state election; Florida just happened to be the pivotal state in a NATIONAL election. And in actuality, Gore received more votes nationally (50,999,897) than Bush (50,456,002), but due to the U.S.'s electoral voting system and the crooked count in Florida, Bush won nationally by one electoral vote.

The reason it IS comparable to Mexico's election is because BOTH were presidential elections, there was FRAUD in BOTH elections, and in BOTH elections the Right-wing candidates pulled strong-arm tactics in order to squeak past the Left-wing candidate, then pulled more dubious tactics through the U.S. Supreme Court (which ruled politically) and the Mexican IFE (which also ruled politically) in favor of RIGHT-WING candidates.

I never stated that it's "whoever puts up the most unsettling post-electoral fight" that wins. (YOU said that--perhaps you know more about such things than I do.) And, yes, it's the voters who SHOULD decide--IF their votes are counted properly and not manipulated by Right-wing "thugs and acarreados" in order to win at all costs. If everything had been straight, in BOTH countries, there would have been no problem with recounting ALL the votes. That's why I said, in the name of true democracy, BOTH Gore and AMLO should fight on. Otherwise democracy goes down the drain.

TexDrifter, the Aztecs WERE the fat rich cats in Mexico--until Hernan Cortes arrived with the first boatload of Right-wing bloodsuckers. Nothing has changed since.

Posted by: El Oso | September 12, 2006 08:56 PM

El Oso, I guess you are just screwed and rescrewed. 500 years of "right wingers" and now, because your little candidate did not want to debate, and surrounded himself with crooked ex PRIistas, you get to enjoy SIX MORE YEARS of it:) Enjoy, I will.

By the way, yesterday I asked any of the PRDistas or MALOids to refute the accusations in the Cronica article about MALO spending more on spots than Calderon, about the pirate taxis, about the use of the GDF as an illegal showcase for his presidential campaign, and many other things. So far no one has. What is up? You can't??

Posted by: Jerry B | September 12, 2006 10:37 PM

"GOYO2, yes there were numerous challenges in Florida 2000, but never a full recount, and we're talking nearly 3 million votes each for Bush & Gore. But this was NOT a state election; Florida just happened to be the pivotal state in a NATIONAL election. And in actuality, Gore received more votes nationally (50,999,897) than Bush (50,456,002), but due to the U.S.'s electoral voting system and the crooked count in Florida, Bush won nationally by one electoral vote."

It is NOT comparable with Mexico's situation since in here electoral votes doesn't determine the winner, it is the majority of the total votes, there wasn't a fraud in the making in this country, and the votes are expressed, not through an electronic device like in the US, but in hadwritten votes in a sheet of paper which makes the whole process cleaner and easier to detect any irregularities.

And, El Oso, you definetely have a very twisted version of mexican history. You're talking about right and left wing long before those terms were born. Was Juárez a right winger? Was the constitutional congress of 1917 right winger? Because scholars agree that the Mexican Constitution is the first one in the entire world to give social rights even before the communist russian constitution of october 1917. Were the mexican governments that prosecuted the church during the guerra cristera right wingers? Was Echeverría and López Portillo right wingers?

All of the examples above are demonstrations of left leaining governments in Mexico. Maybe studying your national history better wouldn't hurt.

Posted by: bunburina | September 13, 2006 12:36 AM

I gotta admit at the time I was for the recount for Gore vs Bush because I thought of Bush as the spoiled son of a former president with no qualifications to be president on his own.

I was right, but alas there were rules of the game in the United States interpreted by the Supreme Court by which the candidates played and agreed to abide by.

You can tell where this is going... so must Obrador play by the rules of the game in Mexico as interpreted by the electoral institute. Otherwise there is no peace. It is absurd to agree to play and then whine at the referees and stomp your feet and try to get the crowd to support a whole different decision. it is childish.

Sometimes, as in Mexican law, there is not even an instant replay. In fact, had Obrador had real evidence of fraud in the other poling stations, he could have presented it to the court and gotten his recount. he did not present this evidence to the court for those other polling stations. the referrees called the game accordingly as if there is no proof and request on the the other polling stations to be recounted, then by the rules of the game there is no recount.

if you don't like the game, don't enter your name as a candidate.

I assume that if the PRD continues to support obrador they will either revolt against the mexican government or not put up a candidate at the next election. what would be the point if there was such fraud as they claim?

Posted by: eljefejesus | September 13, 2006 02:06 AM

eljefejesus, did you catch diarrhea? or why did that kiddie call you "looser", maybe clothes fit you loosely?

Awwww come on, we need something to happen, the blog is growing stale.

Posted by: Ariel R. Orellana | September 13, 2006 02:12 AM

i don't know ariel, i sure didn't catch diarrhea though, the kid is probably maya0 catching diarhea of the mouth... again.

so if you want to get the blog going ariel, let's hear a little more from you right now, how 'bout that amlo and his alternative (imaginary) government? is that crazy or stupid?

what about his remaining followers? gullible? naive? crazy? or stupid?

it must be tough for amlosers to realize that they were backing such a pathetic loser, eh?

Posted by: eljefejesus | September 13, 2006 02:33 AM

ON LOGORRHEA

This is my highly pondered most exquisite comment at Ana Maria Salazar blog:

rodolfo said...

Ana Maria,
The steady crescendo of concern from the Fox administration and undisguised contempt towards AMLO rolls on.

The secretary of Defense will get his parade but Lopez will do his Sep.15 shindig first.

Now in a paper before CSIS the SSP undersecretary Rafael Rios delivers a nifty analysis for lopistas to ponder.

http://www.csis.org/images/stories/Americas/060911_rios.pdf

We must not forget the human factor here. Fox dislikes Lopez immensely. Lopez sees Fox and Calderon as spurious, immoral puppets and what not. Something has got to give. Guess who has the big stick, who has a bad case of logorrhea.

http://mexicotoday.blogspot.com/2006/09/battle-of-gritos.html

Posted by: rodolfo | September 13, 2006 12:03 PM


THIS IS SOME RANT:

Mexico's Popular Revolt

1.
Mexico was rocked by powerful revolts against neo-liberalism throughout the 1990s, and these struggles have continued into the 21st century. But until now none has succeeded in building a broad political movement that could challenge for power at a national level.
2.
Armed insurrections in the countryside, trade union rebellions, the struggles for indigenous rights, the anti-privatisation and student strikes - each reached a plateau, gained either minimal or meaningless concessions from the state, and subsided.
3.
Mexico's left Party of the Democratic Revolution (PRD) has been incapable of nurturing these struggles. In 1988 it swallowed the fraud that robbed its candidate of victory in the presidential elections, and since then the PRD has followed the contradictory course of most social democratic parties in the current period.
4.
It has accepted neo-liberal policies, while attempting to present policy alternatives to its electoral base in the working class.
5.
The result has been a steady erosion of internal party life and of working class electoral participation. The PRD wins a large share of its votes on the basis of respect for particular candidates or because it is seen as the "least bad" option.
6.
If the current PRD presidential candidate Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador (known as Amlo) had been announced as winner in the 2 July elections, this scenario would probably have changed little.
7.
As mayor of the capital, Mexico City, Amlo practised "neo-liberalism from below", while retaining his left base and a popularity rating that never dipped below 60 percent.

8.
During the elections, he performed the delicate act of running a centre-left campaign domestically while assuring the international press and markets that his "alternative nation building project" did not entail a departure from neo-liberalism. He won sympathetic coverage in the Financial Times and the New York Times during his campaign.
9.
If there was a political leader in Mexico who seemed to promise effective rule combined with neo-liberal continuity, it was Amlo.
10.
However the Mexican ruling class thought differently. It views Obrador, and his working class and peasant supporters, with a fear and hatred that recalls the reaction of the Venezuelan elite to the rise of radical president Hugo Chavez.
11.
Through its clumsy political interventions it has now closed the possibility of stable neo-liberal rule in Mexico for the foreseeable future.
12.
Attempts by the Mexican elite to discredit and smear Amlo politically during the year leading up to the elections, to disqualify him from running and ultimately - as almost half the country believes - to defraud him of electoral victory, have changed everything.
13.
There is now a major political upheaval as a movement demands honest elections and an end to the neo-liberal model. Organisers of this movement say the country has not seen anything on this scale since the nationalisation of petroleum in the 1930s. It is broader and more promising than the student-led democracy movement of 1968.

Mexico in motion
14.
This radicalisation is both political and social. The political crisis has developed rapidly - moving from a demand for legitimate elections to demands that call the constitution and the whole legal system into question.
15.
The decisive shift took place on 28 August when the country's electoral tribunal refused to call for a full recount of the votes. In the first count, Felipe Calderon of the right wing party PAN came out ahead by 244,000 votes.
16.
The tribunal ruled for a partial recount of 9 percent of the votes, which found, even in this limited sample, that over 230,000 ballots had to be disqualified. Despite this Calderon was declared president.
17.
Instead of the tribunal lending its legitimacy to the vote, the illegitimacy of the vote tainted the tribunal.
18.
Amlo called a national democratic ­convention, set for this Saturday, to be held in Mexico City's central square, the Zocalo. Up to a million delegates will invoke article 39 of the Mexican constitution and return all political authority to the people.
19.
The political crisis would not have developed this rapidly were it not for the social crisis produced by neo-liberalism. The PRD's talk of "macroeconomic stability" has gone, replaced by condemnations of neo-liberalism and promises of a redistribution of wealth.
20.
When participants in the massive assemblies and demonstrations are asked why they take part, they invariably mention both electoral fraud and economic inequality. Mexico has the fourth largest number of billionaires in the world while half its workers earn less than £4.50 a day.
21.
By taking his campaign onto the streets, Amlo has opened the door to all of the social movements which have emerged to challenge neo-liberalism. In the early days of the recount mobilisations, after the protests reached the million mark, a decision was made to occupy the Zocalo and Avenida Reforma - Mexico City's main thoroughfare, where many of the city's luxury hotels and corporate headquarters are located.
22.
Encampments stretch for seven miles and include living, meeting and concert spaces, communal kitchens and recreational areas. On weekends and evenings especially, the encampments become mass forums for discussing all aspects of Mexican politics and the next steps for the movement.
23.
Amlo recognises the need to pull Mexico's movements on board, and his politics have shifted accordingly. By early August, he was slamming the country's rich and vowing to create a "cradle to grave" welfare state.
24.
Peasant organisations support him because he offers democracy and aid to the countryside. Public sector workers support him for democracy, more social spending and a halt to all privatisations. Old people support him for democracy and pensions.
25.
Women's groups have raised the demand for reproductive rights. Indigenous peoples are organising for the convention, and will be demanding autonomy for their communities. Gays and lesbians will propose legislative changes to gain equal rights.
26.
The tension in Mexico continued to build in early September with no sign of either the movement or the ruling class backing down. Speculation that the parliamentary wing of the PRD would soon break with Amlo was dispelled on 1 September, when PRD representatives stormed the podium in Congress to prevent outgoing president Vicente Fox from giving his annual address to the nation.

Discipline
27.
Police forces shut down a large working class section of the city surrounding the Congress, expecting that it would be the movement that would attempt to prevent the address.
28.
In the Zocalo, Amlo argued that the state would use the moment to justify repression of the movement, and asked protesters to remain in the square.
29.
The important thing, he said, was to continue building for the convention and not fall for provocations. The question was put to the assembly, and his position was agreed by consensus. It was a remarkable display of a disciplined movement thinking strategically on its feet.
30.
Back in the encampments, thousands gathered around television sets tuned in to the events in Congress. When Fox was forced to retreat, a mere seven minutes after arriving, they erupted in celebration of what they consider to be their first victory.
31.
By its actions, the PRD has gone some way to re-establish its credibility. Amlo has demonstrated his ability both to keep the parliamentary party on board, and, once again, to out-fox Fox. That night new slogans emerged from the encampments: "Fox has fallen, Felipe will fall", "Not one step backwards".
32.
There is a whole series of such moments lying ahead in September and the following months.
33.
On Friday of this week, Fox is scheduled to give another address to the nation, this time in the Zocalo. On Saturday, the date of the convention, the army customarily marches through the streets now covered by the encampments. Calderon is set to be officially sworn in as president on 1 December.
34.
The constitutionality of each moment will be contested by the movement. After the weekend, if not already, Mexico will have two political powers - a right wing neo-liberal government that talks of further privatisations, and a rebel left government, of some form, which will be launched by the convention.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Workers' struggles hold the key to the future

35.
Historically in Mexico, movements such as these have been dealt with by applying selective repression, coming to a negotiated arrangement with the leadership, and afterwards slowly pushing through either democratic or social reforms. This was the strategy successfully applied in 1968 and 1988. There are reasons to doubt that this will be viable in the current context.
36.
Repression will be difficult to apply. Both Amlo and Fox appeal to the army on a regular basis. It is said that the army is split and cannot be relied upon to repress such a broad citizens' movement. The city police sympathise with the movement and are under the command of a PRD mayor.
37.
This leaves the federal police force and newly forming paramilitary units, which could only be deployed at the cost of massive political damage to whoever uses them. Both the movement and the state recognise that the first to shoot, loses.
38.
Until now, Amlo has refused to even acknowledge Calderon, much less negotiate with him. The extent of negotiations between PRD leaders and PAN is unclear. Amlo himself is being given very little space to reach a negotiated solution, and has so far refused to back down.
39.
Calderon and PAN are talking of political reforms and increased social spending, but while the movement is still on the streets these will be perceived as concessions or derided as too little, too late. The current strategy of the right appears to be simply to wait for the movement to exhaust itself.
40.
The movement is regionally uneven, concentrated in Mexico City. In the southern state of Oaxaca, an economic strike has turned political. Teachers, among the most militant sectors of the Mexican working class, have formed a broad labour front and taken power in some parts of the state.
41.
Throughout Mexico, miners are engaged in militant struggle with the state. Neither strike movement has yet effectively connected with the movement in Mexico City. The same is true of the Zapatistas, who ran an ambiguously abstentionist "Other Campaign" during the elections, and hence will have to figure out how to intervene in the new moment.
42.
Their best known spokesperson, Subcomandante Marcos, who is currently living in Mexico City, has yet to comment on the movement there. The huge concentrations of industrial workers in the northern states that border the US remain quiet. All of this could change very quickly.
43.
More seriously, organised political forces to the left of the PRD are still weak. The PRD will be unable to carry this movement forward. In the encampments the question of organisation is being posed but left regroupment will take time.
44.
The situation in Mexico is very fluid and a variety of scenarios are possible. But it is beyond doubt that the left tide rising from Latin America is now heading north.

Ian MacDonald is a postgraduate student at York University, Toronto, Canada

mayaO, pasilla,

I thought you were running out of steam so I brought this hotheaded ranter as reinforcement.

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/article.php?article_id=9665

I numbered the paragraphs so they can be commented at your leisure.

Posted by: rodolfo | September 13, 2006 03:01 PM

Nice to see someone from Canada who has probably never been to Mexico explain everything to us.

Posted by: Jerry b | September 13, 2006 03:42 PM

es posible que eljefejesus sea igual de pu..ritano como emptyboxes? o es la misma persona?

Posted by: guru | September 13, 2006 08:49 PM

Guru, para de chillar, PERDISTE.

Posted by: Jerry B | September 13, 2006 09:32 PM

Anti-Yunque,
I went camping in the sierra, didn't make it to the Fecal Fiesta, and I so wanted a torta and a coke!

Posted by: K. Vronna | September 13, 2006 11:29 PM

the end per the post they will no longer be updating the mexico votes blog :(

Posted by: eljefejesus | September 13, 2006 11:36 PM

Vayanse todos los Fecalistas a chingar a su madre!!! especialmente Jerry B. + Emptyboxes + Rodolfo

Se la chupan mutuamente.

Y que Viva Mexico Cabrones!!!

Les apuesto a que FOX dara el grito pero en otro lugar que no sea el Zocalo.

Posted by: Perfecto!!! | September 14, 2006 01:48 PM

Porque la mia, si la tuya esta tan puesta....

Posted by: Jerry b | September 14, 2006 06:03 PM

I'm a Canadian, married to a Mexican, lived 12 years in Mexico. Don't assume we're out of the loop up here! Both countries are situated in the same neighbourhood (North America), and we both share our humanity. We know who's who and what's what.

Posted by: Northerner | September 14, 2006 10:55 PM

lots of bitter chillones old enough to vote but aren't mature enough to accept defeat.

Posted by: eljefejesus | September 15, 2006 02:43 AM

Perfecto,

This I wrote as a response to Mrs. Lachi...
Due to my busy activities I will adress your self-revealing little message ASP.

Meanwhile, expect something similar as a manner of riposte to your kind comment:

Mrs. emptyboxes Mum,

Such grandness of misery, yours. Such plaintive longing, yours a prayer seeking nothing special.

Will my lifting of gladness, with utmost force create from this communion sopor and remorse.
You are a foreign brute to our delicate orations. Your scrupulous accuracy of definition confounds no one. Keep your dramatic spectacles, naturally exhausting, away from this Parnassus.

Let the quiet extasy, that profound cavilation make us, Authors, obey the voices within. I shall have no light through the darkness of your diatribe, through which your erring stumbles.

Superfluous incense to salute you. You were found in trouble by the wayside. It makes no jealousy that you would seize the pillars of human good and turn our places of joy into a buried never rising malodorous pit our proud democracy called El Zocalo.

Posted by: rodolfo | August 26, 2006 04:31 PM

Posted by: | September 15, 2006 04:55 PM

Northerner,
You say: "We know who's who and what's what." But it seems that you don't even know who you are. Just which one of these posts represents the real you?

Posted by: Ponce de Leon | September 5, 2006 11:39 PM

Posted by: El Oso | September 12, 2006 08:56 PM

Posted by: Northerner | September 14, 2006 10:55 PM

The link on the name of each of these posts take us to the same site with the same username; please try to be more honest. Many of us were born at night, but it wasn't last night!

Posted by: K. Vronna | September 15, 2006 09:06 PM

K.Vronna,

As always the eagle eyed commander.

Wonder why lopistas can't figure what is up, what is loopy down.

By the way, Oso Northener, the link doesn't work.

Posted by: rodolfo | September 16, 2006 05:53 PM

K. Vronna:
Don't jump to conclusions. There's more than one person posting from this site.

Posted by: Northerner, Ponce de Leon & El Oso | September 17, 2006 11:42 AM

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