"· Joel Hanrahan vs. John Maine tonight? Mets might make up one in the standings."

Umm, Barry, didn't you say something similar to that when Levale Speigner started agaist Johan Santana?

"Logan is now hitting .269, higher than all but two Washington regulars"

Which proves why it's silly to use batting average as a measure of value.

Glad to hear Slowes and Jageler will be back.

Also glad to see Jesus "Holey Butt" Colome pitch well again.

Does Rizzo really want anything to do with our ineptitude?

Any word on Ray Knight being shown the door?

Reserve role probably suits Church and Lopez right now, less pressure on them allows them to focus on mechanics instead of results, which of course improves performance and thus results.

If the Mets are in need of a Catcher for next year maybe we can give them Brian Schneider.

"Which proves why it's silly to use batting average as a measure of value."

Can you explain how that proves that at all?

Really hope we don't lose Rizzo, that guy has serious draft skills.

"Can you explain how that proves that at all?"

Which way would you like it explained? With the fact that Logan has a .651 OPS? Or with the fact that Logan's average went up five points in a single very good game? Or with that fact that in a very good game, Logan leapfrogged two other Nats players in batting average, thus making Barry's reference of the third-best average quite selective indeed?

"Can you explain how that proves that at all?"

How much space do we have?

Is Nook Logan out third best hitter? Is Ronnie Belliard our second most?

All batting average measures is how often a player gets a hit. All hits aren't created equal. Ryan Church has a lower batting average, but he hits for more power, so his hits have been (in a sense) more valuable. Of the regulars on the team, only Brian Schneider slugs less than Logan.

Also, because Logan doesn't have much of a batting eye, he never walks. Which means when he's not getting hits, he's making outs. Lots of them. Of the regular batters, only Felipe Lopez has a worse on-base percentage than Logan.

So he doesn't get on base. He doesn't hit for power. All he does is slap singles. When it works, as it did last night, it's a thing of beauty. But, more often than not, when they're not falling in, he's killing the team by making more outs than an average player would.

As the godfather of stats dorks, Bill James, once said, "There's batting average, and then there's everything else."

Except for speed stuff, Logan isn't good at the everything else stuff.

I like Nook, but he isn't a starting centerfielder. I think he can help as a reserve in the future.

Here we go again.
You may have an OPS point, but crimey, what about Logan is so bad? Is it his leaping and diving catches? His base-stealing? Or is it his ability to come back from a nasty slump to HAVE the third best BA? And call me crazy, but a single is a single, whether it was whacked hard in the hole, slapped or eaked out thanks to his speedy wheels. And I daresay he's squeezed out a fair number of doubles out of would-be singles with any other player.
Let's not get in another Logan argument, PLEASE. It's just a lame argument to say he's that bad and there's so much more to talk about.

I see Nook as a poor-man's Kenny Lofton - minus the occasional pop. Good speed. Can wreak havoc on a defense when he uses that speed appropriately. I'd like to see him attempt to steal more often, but speed doesn't necessarily make you the best base stealer. That's instinct. It's what separates a fast player from Jose Reyes. He's in scoring position at first base. He makes you pay for walking him which makes teams pitch to him, which gives him better pitches to hit, which raises his offensive numbers across the board. Dominoes.

All this being said, I developed a bit of a soft spot for Nook last night. I sat right behind him in CF. He was awesome about interacting with the fans. Threw three souvenirs up as well. Seems like a nice guy.

"the lead in the "other pennant race" is two games (that being the Nationals' advantage over Florida for fourth place)."

and in the more important MASN standings, the Nats have a 2.5 game lead over the O's. This is the pennant race I'll be watching over the next 12 days.

MKevin, awesome post about the game. And I'm not just saying that because you sorta agreed with me on Logan.ha ha
You should carry that post forward.

Kenny Lofton? Nah. Lofton (as you point out) hit homers and doubles, driving the ball occasionally. He also hit .310 in his prime and walked 60+ times a year.

Logan is more like Tom Goodwin -- not a bad guy to have on a bench for the right situation, but not a guy you want in the lineup every day.

"Is it his leaping and diving catches? His base-stealing? Or is it his ability to come back from a nasty slump to HAVE the third best BA?"

Those are all good things. And Logan is a useful player. But the question is How much do those matter given the things he struggles with. As you point out, a single is a single. You're right. It doesn't matter how he gets them, just that he gets him. But a single ain't a homer. And a groundout isn't a walk.

"And I daresay he's squeezed out a fair number of doubles out of would-be singles with any other player."

You're right. He does do a good job of taking the extra base. Can't disagree with that. But don't knock the other players for getting their doubles the old fashioned way: ripping the ball deep, instead of blooping one down the line. ;)

What's so bad about Nook Logan? He has the baseball instincts of a mountain goat. No matter where the ball is hit, he breaks back. A lot of those spectacular looking diving catches are routine plays for an outfielder that reads the ball correctly off the bat. He has made several unforgivable baserunning mistakes this year (where was he going? what was he thinking?) His hitting has went from horrendous to passable since the All Star break, but is there really any indication that he can continue at his acceptable pace for a full season? And even if he can, should the Nats be satisfied with acceptable?

Let me begin this rebuttal with a caveat: I am not Nook Logan's mom. But I am strongly opposed to setting up a whipping boy and that is how Nook is treated on this blog.

Charlie's reply is that Logan's OPS for the season is only .651. Very true, but this is the National League, not the AL East. Still, since the All-Star break, Resurgent Nook has an OPS of .710. Since no one will argue that he was at all worth the (small amount of) money before July, I think we can look at this favorably.

Chris makes a tougher argument. When he's not making hits, he's making outs, which is a very bad thing to have from a player. Chris uses OBP to support the claim that "when [his slap hits] are not falling in, he's killing the team by making more outs than an average player would."

So let's look at it. Nook Logan, according to MLB.com's stats program which is all I can afford right now (that's another story...), has cost the team 143 outs (GO+AO) this season in his 301 ABs. Why on earth they don't have a Plate Appearances stat on MLB.com is beyond me, but we'll add in walks and get a close estimation (19 BBs).

Let's compare him to Golden Boy Zimmerman, who can do no wrong at the plate on this blog. Zimm has 332 outs (GO+AO again) this season in 605 ABs and 53 BBs.

So we'll figure out the percentage each of them gets out per their at bat in the most awkward stat ever invented.

Logan: .447 (GO+AO)/(AB+BB)
Zimmerman: .504 (GO+AO)/(AB+BB)

So Zimmerman is more likely to get out per his at bats plus walks than Nook Logan is.

Why is that? All those GIDP probably don't help. Also Zimmerman tends to come up swinging for the fences sometimes and Nook doesn't. Opposing pitchers are more likely to know Zimmerman's weak stuff. He was having trouble laying off breaking stuff. Any number of reasons. But what is not true is that Nook Logan is more likely to get out than the average player would be.

I'll raise you all one. Nook had 238 put outs this season plus two assists. Zimmerman had 126 put outs plus 323 assists. So Nook is fully or partially responsible for dishing out 240 outs and Zimmerman for 449 outs. So here's the percentage of outs for which responsible per at bats plus walks:

Logan: .750
Zimm: .682

So Nook not only takes less than Zimm, but he gives back more.

Not saying I would ever take Nook and let Zimm go! Zimm is far more important than Nook, especially in slugging. I'm just saying

It's time to rethink Nook Logan.

Barry -- who are the announcer free agents to be this winter that could replace Bob Carpenter?

Actually, this brings up another question. (I mean it as an earnest question, not a facetious one to make a point)
Does the entire lineup in a playoff team need to have all the same batting numbers? Aren't team members used for their strengths, i.e., they know Nook doesn't hit homers so they never expect homers and they put him in a spot where a bunt single or a stolen base works best? Seems all teams, even playoff teams, have OPS guys, homer guys, doubles guys, even homer/strikeout guys, and can't-hit-to-save-his-life guys, cough..langerhans ..cough..fick..cough. Okay they probably aren't playoff guys, but you get my point: Why not speedy, bunt-singles guys too?

Carried over by request from previous post...

Observations from last nights game. Not much about the game - I think that kinda spoke for itself last night.

1. Jeezus the field looks terrible. I get the whole splitting time with the United and all but WTF is up with the half-moon dead strip of replacement sod that stretches from left to center?

2. Sorry to my wife for ruining her afternoon trip to the Bodies exhibit by sticking her with daycare pickup duties in my zeal to get to the game.

3. Dumbest PNC Bank PIN contestant ever tonight. It's the dice game from The Price is Right for the love of gravy. How do you not get that by now? Good ol Clint let her have it anyway. I wonder if he gets the .35 edition? He's gotta be scanning the help wanted section at this point. Maybe the United will hook him up.

4. Good night to wander in the stands. Tried the 300 level for 2 outs. Ugh. Way too many Mets fans. Much prefer the relative peace of the Sherpa seats.

5. Tee shirt cannon guy took a huge chunk out of the CF Out of Town scoreboard. Broken chunks of plastic and glass in CF. Yellow Jacket wouldn't throw the tee shirt in the stands and was resoundingly booed.

6. Why do the yellow jackets come out during a mound visit? Is the MGRs walk to the mound a matter of national security? Never noticed that before and found it odd.

7. Why in the world can't they hang the count down numbers straight? I saw them drop the 5 going from 16 - 15 and the 0 has been crooked since it was hung. For that matter the entire outfield beyond the fence is in embarrassing shape. I rarely sit out here so I don't get to see it that close but it's a wreck. I get that it's an old stadium and all but with a little attention to detail it could have looked a lot better while they were there.

8. Why wouldn't you have the MNF score on the Out of Town Scoreboard? I mean I know it's not baseball but come on. The hometown team is playing on MNF. The Caps have been putting other sports up on their scrolling scoreboard for years.

9. Top 8 after Church HR. This game is officially awesome. Remaining Mets fans have apparently stayed only to hurl obscenities at their own players. Class acts I tell you.

10. I've always wanted to see stats on merch sales on games the Nats win vs. The games they lose. I for one sunk $18 on a softee bat and ball for my daughter tonight. I want the New Era mesh stretch blue and red DC cap but they had a million in M/L but none in L/XL. If anyone knows where else one can get one of these please let me know. I checked all the usual suspects online and came up blank.

11. Orange line home I'm sitting behind a Mets fan wearing a Nats cap over top of his Mets cap. Has his Mets tee shirt on inside out. Curiosity peaked I had to ask. Turns out he lost a bet to his brother who's sitting next to him and quite obviously a Nats fan. Classic.

"You may have an OPS point, but crimey, what about Logan is so bad?"

Okay, how about these things:

(1) He has a terrible arm. Compared with the arms of his outfield mates last night, he's much much worse than Kearns and worse than WMP. His current replacement, Church, also has a better arm.

(2) His speed covers up for his lack of skill in judging fly balls, which just about puts him even with Church in terms of ability to cover center field. Church, of course, offers much more at the plate than Logan.

So there goes any positive argument you could mount for him on account of his defense. Offensively, there's this:

(3) He's fast, I'll give you that, but in order for that speed to be of benefit he needs to get on base first, and as has already been pointed out, his OBP sucks. Jose Reyes strikes fear in opponents because he always seems to be on base. Nook Logan strikes a brief panic in opponents when he happens to get on, but more often than not he's not on, so there's no need for them to worry.

Those three strikes are enough for me to say he should be out of the starting lineup. His true role on this or any team ought to be late-inning pinch runner and defensive replacement, with maybe a spot start here or there in a pinch. He's not an every day centerfielder by a long shot.

I'll be watching the MASN Cup Race, too, e! As I mentioned in the prior thread, a breakdown on that race might make an excellent late-season addition to the weekly GB/A report.

---

and in the more important MASN standings, the Nats have a 2.5 game lead over the O's. This is the pennant race I'll be watching over the next 12 days.

"Randolph obviously was saving the front-line guys - Heilman, Mota, et al - for a game they might win, but still, that was terrible."

If Mota is a "front line guy", then I'm flying to Vegas and putting a hunski on the Phils to win the division.

Section 506 -- God love ya for trying to think critically about it, but you don't really need to reinvent the wheel. If you're looking for stats, plenty of other people have done that for you.

Instead of using mlb.com, try baseball-reference.com It's a much better stat site.

Comparing Zimmerman to Logan offensively is unfair. While you're right in that Zimmerman doesn't get on as much as he should just look at their on-base percentages (.327 for Zim and .312 for Logan). That's not a mammoth difference, and neither are great numbers, but it's a noticeable difference.

I'm not trying to bore everyone with hardcore stathead numbers. These are basic stats that are now widely accepted by most in baseball and most broadcasts -- like ESPN's Sunday Night Games -- use regularly.

(As far as defense, both Zimmerman and Logan are VERY highly ranked by most statheady defensive statistics -- They're both among the best at their positions)

"Randolph obviously was saving the front-line guys - Heilman, Mota, et al - for a game they might win, but still, that was terrible."

If Mota is a "front line guy", then I'm flying to Vegas and putting a Ben Franklin on the Phils to win the division.

"Does the entire lineup in a playoff team need to have all the same batting numbers?"

No. this is a very good point. There are many ways to skin the cat. But there are two basic ways of creating runs: getting on base or hitting for power. Ideally all your batters would do both, but that's obviously not possible! The key is finding players who add to the bottom line. (In fairness, Logan does 'add' runs with his defense -- he's well above average, but the difference between players defensively typically aren't as great as they are offensively)

"WTF is up with the half-moon dead strip of replacement sod that stretches from left to center?"

That would be where the moveable stands behind the Nats' dugout end up when RFK is put into soccer configuration. Try moving your big-ass antique armoire back and forth across your bedroom on a regular basis and see how YOUR carpet holds up over time...

"That would be where the moveable stands behind the Nats' dugout end up when RFK is put into soccer configuration."

I thought it might be something like that. I've never been to a United game so I haven't seen the soccer config. It still looks horrible and it has to be terrible to play on with loose sod pieces scattered throughout the OF. I'm obviously not shedding any tears over the move out of RFK.

Hahaha, thanks Chris. Maybe I have a soft spot for Nook Logan because, like him, sometimes I like to get it done the hard way. Thanks for the tip, that site looks much better.

I agree that Logan and Zimm are completely different players, but I think that Zimm is given a pass on nearly everything and Logan is taken to task for things that aren't even wrong. Yes, some things are wrong with Nook and some things are right with Zimm.

I think that Nook has earned a spot on this team unless a major, *cheap* upgrade is available. And that is not Ryan Church. Church for Logan in center is not a wash, but I've already dug through too many stats today.

"Church for Logan in center is not a wash, but I've already dug through too many stats today."

Here come a lot of IFs...

IF Logan is hitting .280+ (he's not doing that yet) and IF you assume that he's upper tier defensively and that Church is slightly below average defensively, the numbers work out that they're of roughly equal value. Otherwise, Church probably adds a few more runs offensively than Logan saves defensively. (But that's if you trust the numbers!)

Is Mel Proctor available? He was great as the Nats announcer in 2005 and I would really love to have him back. Is there a chance?

Chris, is that assuming good Church or bad Church? Hasn't Logan had a much more consistent second half than Church?

Mel Proctor?

PASS

"Is Mel Proctor available? He was great as the Nats announcer in 2005 and I would really love to have him back. Is there a chance?"

Man I hope that was full of sarcasm that got lost in translation from spoken word to print. I loved Mel when he did the O's broadcasts with John Lowenstein but that was mainly because Lowenstein was hammered by the 2nd inning and would say anything at anytime. Mel was WAY past his prime in 2005 with the Nats and his pairing with the gawdawful Ron Darling certainly didn't help.

...

I'm also glad to hear that Charlie and Dave will be back.

How you skin the cat depends on whether you want the meat or the hide.

"Chris, is that assuming good Church or bad Church?"

That's assuming somewhere in between. Ideal would be to just platoon them -- not just righty/lefty, but based on our pitcher. Chico's a flyball pitcher who doesn't strike anyone out (meaning he allows more balls on to the field of play), so maybe Logan should play behind him, for example.

There are lots of variable, of course, and it's definitely not an exact science, but...

Just a question for you all about Logan. I think it is pretty clear that he looks a bit lost on the bases sometimes and has a tendency to turn the routine play into the spectacular (not a good thing, in this case) in the outfield. Those things seem be something that practice and coaching could significantly improve. What do you think? Can a player of Nook's age significantly improve on those areas, or is he pretty much what he will always be?

I'm beginning to think that our biggest off-season acquisition might need to be re-signing Mike Rizzo. Hopefully the Diamondbacks young talent will implode in this final week and Rizzo's stock will drop.

The big problem with Nook is not particularly Nook himself as it is the team. The Nats don't seem to have a lot of sluggers and that magnifies Nook's weaknesses. Since the infield roster seems pretty locked and Kearns and WMP appear fairly safe, CF is the only real position where a upgrade can be plugged in. If Johnson or Dmitri were traditional power hitting first basemen, we could probably get away with keeping Nook.

Maybe he would consider staying here as GM?

and here comes the monotonous Jim Bowden Debate Take 1,234,567

nook is valuable on defense and on the bases (even though he doesnt steal enough, every time he is out there he should be stealing 2nd and third and maybe home he is so fast).

in the new stadium i think pena church and kearns will be one of the best outfields in the league. solid on defense, killers at the plate they could combine for close to 100 hrs and a ton of RBIs.

I think church's obvious value is that he is left handed. we dont have a power hitting lefty on the team, and as far as i've seen there isnt really one on the free agent market. in the NL its vital to have that lefty in the lineup to disrupt late game matchups. a combination of zim(r) hoook(s) kearns(r) pena(r) and church(L) will be much more likely to do that.

yeah church cant hit lefties, but if he is nestled between righties, the mets phils and bravos will be wasting their lefties for one batter all year.

ps watching boston play, JD Drew really reminds me of church, cant hit lefties or breaking stuff and decent fielder. but church isnt over paid

The solution to the Rizzo problem is the same as the solution to the McGeary problem... though Rizzo probably doesn't want to go to Stanford in the offseason.

If you (Stan and Jim) believe that Rizzo is a part of the team that is worth keeping, pay him.

"The big problem with Nook is not particularly Nook himself as it is the team. The Nats don't seem to have a lot of sluggers and that magnifies Nook's weaknesses."

This goes to that cat-skinning comment above. Not getting 'power' from those positions, per se, isn't necessarily a bad thing, if they do other things well. With the way that NJ hit last year and the way that Dmitri hit for the first half of this year, they were creating enough runs via hits, doubles and walks, that their lack of power didn't hurt the team. They were up there with 40-HR sluggers in terms of their value offensively and 90% of the teams in the league would've taken their production at first.

The team doesn't need a 40-HR slugger. It needs someone to put runs on the board no matter how (granted that 40HR is a really easy way to do that!)

Is Wily Mo being taken into all these equations on what the team needs?

J-Max for Logan. End of story.

The Logan (and Church) question really hinges on what you can get in the offseason in the FA or trade market. My guess is that we probably won't be able to get anything (the obvious free agents are going to be overpriced and old, and the trades will cost pitching prospects)... and at least for the last several weeks, a Logan/Church platoon seems to be working OK.

How successful it will ultimately be will depend on how the rest of the team hits, and at least part of that will depend on the new stadium... but it will also depend on whether Nick is back, how Guzman does next year, whether Lopez can get his stuff worked out, or whether any of them are traded and/or replaced.

I say, unless you get a killer deal, keep them both... have Nook learn to get on base more... Once he's on, he scares opposing pitchers... I almost said, he runs well, but as someone above pointed out... speed and good base running are not the same. He could do better in that department, too... and he could do better jusging fly balls... and... (OK, he's not perfect... OK, he's pretty flawed). Church has shown me something as of late, defensively... so I am warming to him, too.

Good thing none of us are the GM... I don't look good in leather pants.

Albert Belle is the sort of big hitter we need to give this team that last umph it needs to make the playoffs.

Here's the scary thing to keep in mind...

There's a relationship between how many runs a team scores and allows on the season and how many wins they have.

The Nats pitchers have allowed 714 runs, probably about 750 or so by the time the season is over. IF you assume that the pitching stays the same next year (since they've all but ruled out meaningful FA pitchers), and you ignore the role of RFK's dimensions in helping our pitchers, the offense would need to score about 750 runs to play .500 ball.

How many do they have this year? 608, on pace for probably around 640 or so.

That's a lot of offense they need!

I agree with Chris.

Look at the Angels, they have Vlad the bad, but no other slugger. Vlad doesn't even go deep very often anymore. But what do they use?

Speed. Aggressive Baserunning. Clutch Hits.

I think Shenin did a piece on them last week, it was really great and explained how the Angels "small ball" technique translates to the team. Last I checked, the Angels are doing pretty well...

Plus, another bonus: Power hitters could be the most overpaid commodity on the market. If we build our team to be aggressive and speedy (I'm not saying Nook Logan), then perhaps we can use that to our advantage. Especially in the National League, where there just don't seem to be as many boppers.

The key with the Angels isn't so much their baserunning -- tho that does add.

It's that up and down their lineup, they have above average hitters.

Look at it this way. Of their regular batters, Orlando Cabrera has the lowest slugging average (.403). The Nats have three regulars under that, and Austin Kearns a hare above at .404. Their worst power hitter hits like Austin Kearns!

Their lowest on-base percentage is Gary Matthews' .323. Three Nats, too, are below that.

The baserunning helps, but so does having a deep lineup of guys who get on base and hit for decent power.

Let's face it... the era of the 200+ HR lineup is gone. We're moving away from a time when you needed 2 or 3 guys capable of 40+ HR/year in order to compete and back to an age of speed, solid defense, productive hitting, and 1 or 2 guys capable of 30+ HR/year. And look for those power numbers to fall even further if the league is successful in implementing the rumored blood test for HGH next season.

It's a whole new winning formula based on solid fundamentals rather than clubbing a ball over a wall. GMs and talent scouts alike across both leagues are going to have to adjust the way they evaluate players and how they put together a lineup.

The good news is, if you look at the way the Braves were put together, they never bought into the big bopper lineup craze. Kasten's teams were assembled for productivity built on dominating pitching, solid defense, and enough hitting to win if you get the pitching on any given night. They were never the team that was going to blow you off the field offensively, but they had enough for 14 straight division titles.

I for one am content to sit back and let the guys who get paid for this kinda thing do their jobs. I'm confident in the Nats FO and that the owners are going to spend the $$$ when the time and situation is right.

That's not quite true of Kasten's teams. They were typically in the top 2 or 3 each year (not counting Coors-inflated teams) in both homers and runs.

They pitched well AND hit well.

You mean back to the drug-free era?
_______
"Let's face it... the era of the 200+ HR lineup is gone. We're moving away from a time when you needed 2 or 3 guys capable of 40+ HR/year in order to compete and back to an age of speed, solid defense, productive hitting"

Agreed, MKevin. My aforementioned Belle comment which was meant to give some among us nightmare flashbacks to Angelos in the mid-90's when the prevailing attitude was "GET PROVEN POWER NOW!" and we see what has happened with that.

"We're one player away" is a dangerous mindset, because it makes a man desperate. Go organic. Grow it on your own farm. If it's essential, then it's important enough to produce it yourself. FA's should be to plug holes.

Amen 6th and D, I hope he's ready. I don't want to waste big money on a FA CFer if we have a great alternative in the system. I wish they would start him 4-5 more times so we can see what he's got.

All this Nook v Church talk might be mute if Bowden does loves and signs Adam Dunn so we can have the all Commie outfield with Kearns at center.

I am sickened to here that we may lose Bob Carpenter. He is, without being pompous or heavy-handed, an encyclopedic authority on the game, and as good a play-by-play announcer as exists (and, like Wigi, I listen to all of them.) What's the story here? Is he gone? Do I and my friends cancel our season tickets?

Prediction: Bowden DOES NOT sign Dunn.

"He is, without being pompous or heavy-handed, an encyclopedic authority on the game,"

Except when his misunderstands the rules, ruins calls by anticipating instead of reacting or says things that Don Sutton has to gently correct him on.

(But if it's about the Cardinals, dude knows all!)

I do mean as close as one can get to a drug-free era. Players will always find a way to get an edge but at least we're moving away from the disgracefully inflated offensive numbers and back to something that respectfully resembles baseball again, rather than a traveling "longest drive" contest.

No doubt Kasten's teams hit well, but they were never the powerhouses that other teams of that ere were. The knock against them was always that they had the pitching to get to the playoffs but never the offense to win. Perhaps an unfair statement but a popular explanation for why the Braves only won one World Series.

They hit well, but never went and got the big time free agent slugger ala Albert Belle (nice pull 506 - that move above all symbolically signaled the demise of the Angelos's Orioles). They grew talent organically and signed them to long term deals (see the Jones boys). Nobody ever accused Sid Breem, Rafeal Belliard, or Mark Lemke of being power hitters. They had enough power in appropriate positions (Klesko, Justice, McGriff - of these 3 examples, only Justice ever cracked the 40 HR mark in a season - 40 in '93) but weren't dependent upon the HR.

Welcome back Charile and Dave!!!

As for Carpenter... He is dull and is lacking in his knowledge of the game, which is saying a lot considering his professional upbringing in baseball- mad St. Louis. There has to be someone better out there.

Also, not that anyone watches the pregame show, but Don Baylor is downright painful to watch. Does he ever speak in sentences that consist of more than 3 or 4 words? My two year old nephew is more conversant than him. Not that he doesnt know his subject matter, because it seems like he does, but he freezes like a deer in the headlights when he gets on camera.

At least Debbi Taylor is a cutie, at least moreso than that chunky Amber chick the O's have.

Agree 100% on Baylor. Don Baylor = terrible. Has to go.

Here's a thought... Not that it would be possible but in fantasyland...

Sink a ton of loot into Jon Miller. He's quite simply the best out there at what he does and boy would it cheese off Angelos. Letting Miller go is long considered one of the first in a long line of boneheaded moves by the Peter and if I'm not mistaken, one that he actually acknowledges as a mistake.

Again... this is fantasyland. No need to say how we'd never get him away from his native San Francisco. But now that Barry* is done with his "record breaking" perhaps it's more plausible?

I like Sutton. I liked Darling. Put them together and let them talk to each other. Who needs play-by-play?

And I liked that interview with Maury the other day. Lets get him to be the roving reporter, and walk up to random fans in the stands and say, "Section 206, row 2, seat 5... you ARE the father..."

I HATED Darling. I don't give a flying F--- how things were when you were with the Mets. As much as folks accuse Carp of being a Cards loyalist, Darling was infinatly worse about the Mets.

Wigi, are you suggesting we'll trade for Dunn instead of signing him as a FA?

You can't mean Bowden won't go for him, that's like saying the sun won't rise in the East!

I can drive with Don Baylor out of town

::smiles vacantly::

Considering the confederacy of dunces against him, I am proud to have found such pleasure in Bob Carpenter's play-by-play.

"At least Debbi Taylor is a cutie, at least moreso than that chunky Amber chick the O's have."

"I like Sutton. I liked Darling. Put them together and let them talk to each other. Who needs play-by-play?"

After watching Monday Night Football last night and hearing about Charles Barkley's seasons with the 76ers for 25 minutes I say: please, please, please don't lose play-by-play.

estuartj:

Dunn will not be a Nat... I think Bowden has more self-restraint than that.

In fact, I would go so far as to say (at no risk, since there's no way to prove me wrong) that Wily Mo would not be a Nat if he cost any more than he did.

It is hard to know about any of this, because Bowden (and now Rizzo) have so much institutional knowledge about their former teams that you can't make a statement about whether it is because they are in love with a player, or because they know them so well that they are more comfortable making the trade. I want to believe it is the latter, and as they get further from their roots, and get more confidence in their scouting, that the Reds and DBacks bias will go away.

Interestingly, I think the fans (at least, those in this forum) tend to favor the DBacks bias, but discount the Reds bias... I wonder how much of that is a reaction to Bowden, or the Reds perennial ineptitude?

"I've never been to a United game so I haven't seen the soccer config. It still looks horrible and it has to be terrible to play on with loose sod pieces scattered throughout the OF."
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The DC United players hate it as well. I know of at least one (stoppable) goal this season that took an odd bounce off the sod laid on the infield that went over goalkeeper Troy Perkins' foot.

As for the Mets, dunno if the NY papers have reported this, but I'm hearing the players themselves aren't as cohesive as they were last year (i.e. some playing just for themselves and not for the "greater good" sorta thing). But that's from the "friend-of-a-friend-who-might-know-somebody" frame of reference, so take it with as much salt as you wanna.
frame of

MKevin - Why would Jon Miller want to go back to work for Peter Angelos?

Very astute point, Wigi. Still, Barry's bombshell in the notebook caused me to ask myself whether Bowden or Rizzo would be a better GM in the long-term for the club.

"Interestingly, I think the fans (at least, those in this forum) tend to favor the DBacks bias, but discount the Reds bias... I wonder how much of that is a reaction to Bowden, or the Reds perennial ineptitude?"

flynnie - Darn good point! And the sky darkens in fantasyland :-(

I have been a big critic of Bowden and his seeming obsession with "his" players.

That said the moves he has actually made I have no problem with, Lop and AK were great pick-ups at the price and WMP was a steal. Do you think we can get Adam Dunn for 2 broken pitchers?

I think Kasten and Bowden might be a great team with JimBow always running to Stan with another "can't miss' move and Stan saying 'whoa there Jimmy, let;s think this through" geat potential combination of creative exubererence and wise restraint.

As the sky darkens for Bob Carpenter, who, if he's as decent and hard-working as he appears to be on TV, deserves a lot better from the Nats and from us. It is a dark day, indeed.

I'm (honestly) not trying to pick a fight, I'm just curious, but...

flynnie, is there anyone in the Nationals organization that you don't unconditionally approve of?

I've seen you defend lots of people, and never gripe about anyone... do you see no room for improvement anywhere?

I'm pretty sure I've seen you defend Ryan Church, Bob Carpenter, and Felipe Lopez, to name a few...

It's ok to demand better, you know...

From the "Voice of Restraint and Reason" department:

I don't think the fact that Carpenter has not been extended necessarily means he won't be... There's no reason to rush into that decision... the season isn't over... and most of those kinds of announcements are made in the offseason anyway. My guess is he's staying. All you have to do is get the MLB TV package, and you'll find out that we're not that bad off. There aren't that many teams that I would rather have.

As for the Bowden/Kasten team, it is almost impossible to listen to Bowden talk and not think he's got a Chevy Vega somewhere he wants to sell you... but I bet that Kasten has a lot less to do with the day to day personnel decisions than many would expect... If Kasten was that involved, why would he have a GM? He would do it himself. I think that Kasten basically has set a mandate, and Bowden is executing it (rather well, I would say).

I'm prone to agree - certainly the moves made in the past year and half seem to indicate such. I too initally had a healthy skepticism toward JimBow but find myself with no grounds for criticism. Rizzo is obviously a great judge of talent as well. Our problem (if ther is one) seems to be an embarassment of riches in the Front Office - not a bad problem for an organization just over a year old.

"I think Kasten and Bowden might be a great team with JimBow always running to Stan with another "can't miss' move and Stan saying 'whoa there Jimmy, let;s think this through" geat potential combination of creative exubererence and wise restraint."

Thanks for the news Barry! Yay Charlie and Dave - let's hope it's for the next 10 years...

Wigi,
I'm gonna say my negative reaction to ex-Commies is the role of the Little League park on the Ohio River that inflates hitters' stats so you don't know what's "real" or make believe (BOTH Cincy and RFK). To make things worse, Cincy inflates hitter's stats, RFK deflates them, so who knows what is "just right?"

My bigger worry is that Trader Jim can't even get a team other than the Reds or D-Backs to pick up the phone when he calls. Boston only answered because it was routed via Arizona area code!

Rizzo's shown good work thus far, and can't wait for future impact of NatDraft '07! He'd leave for a GM job (even in Pittsburgh?) to "run the ship" - and I can't imagine anyone in this forum has enough history with him to compare him to JimBow, but I'd give it a listen.

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Interestingly, I think the fans (at least, those in this forum) tend to favor the DBacks bias, but discount the Reds bias... I wonder how much of that is a reaction to Bowden, or the Reds perennial ineptitude?

Was Peter Angelos demanding better when he fired Jon Miller? Do you listen (like Wigi and I) to the other broadcast teams? Do you realize how very good Bob carpenter is? Do you base your statement that getting rid of him will be "better" on anything but a hope for the best?

Sorry Matt - That last was by me, the guy who flamed Sutton for being rude to one of our fellow-jounalers in Pittsburgh.

That last one wasn't me. Whoever did that, it's not cool... grow up.

As far as the question you asked: Like I said, I was just curious, and I never said Bob should be fired.

Take a deep breath, it'll be ok...

Oh, and I watch all sporting events with the TV on mute, so the answer to your other question is no.

I think Kasten is more involved in personnel decisions than you think. I don't think JimBow can make any major moves at the major league level without Kasten + Lerner's say so.

Remember that Bowden was at the DC chophouse waiting for the ok from above to sign McGeary.

ShawNatsFan:

I also worry that people won't take Bowden's calls... but I think, from a practical standpoint, it has been as much that there wasn't anything that other GMs wanted, as Jim's personality. It might also be that other GMs look at the trades that Bowden has made, and think that they've been one-sided, in Bowden's favor. From what I've read, it seems that the Boston folks are regretting losing WMP, and the Mets are really stinging about Flores.

I asked the question in one of Barry's chats at the beginning of the season, whether his reputation prevented him from doing his job effectively... and Barry responded that most GMs look past the personalities... and after watching for another season, I tend to agree... It is about having something that the other teams want... and I really have trouble finding too much fault with Bowden since he's come under "The Plan".

If Boston is missing WMP it's because they realize they didn't take the time with him to make him a complete hitter and now they're seeing what a patient coaching staff can do.

BTW the WMP deal was all Trader Jim, he stayed on Boston giving thema million different options and finally got with ARI to get the piece Boston needed to finish the deal. No way did that "call go through Arizona".

No, I was not being sarcastic when I suggested Mel Proctor to replace Carpenter. Proctor is very knowledgable and always gave info about the Nats players - Carpenter doesn't seem to care about the Nats players, he tells you nothing about them, but talks about the opposing batters as though they were all potential HOFers and each opposing pitcher is a Cy Young award winner. Also, Mel Proctors voice is much better than Carpenter's - he gets on my nerves! Don Sutton is maybe acceptable, but I learned to really like Ron Darling and I learned a lot more about pitching from him than from Sutton.

I have digital cable, and have recently taken to listening to the radio broadcast while watching the game. Not that Bob and Don are bad, it's just that home runs sound better on the radio.

The digital TV broadcast is a good 10 seconds later than the radio, though, so I get the best of both worlds: hear a great call on a play, then actually see it 10 seconds later.

Thoughts from Atlanta:

- Men who can bunt for a base hit with some regularity are not to be sneezed at. I'm surprised this hasn't been emphasized more at "cavernous" RFK.

- Carpenter is indeed a decent guy. While he's not always right, he's neither afraid nor embittered to be wrong -- an essential repertorial characteristic in any medium.

- All those Mets errors cost them but one run last night. Sometimes you lose, not because you fritter it away, but because you just didn't play very well. I wouldn't expect this from them every night, even sans Delgado.

- Hard to believe that there are no top prospects at the highest levels of dear Omar's farm system. It is to weep.

- The Nats should figure out what must be done to keep Rizzo, and then go and do it with dispatch.

Juan-John:
Are you listening to the right games? This is a Nats chat here.

;-)

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Not that Bob and Don are bad, it's just that home runs sound better on the radio.

LOL! :-)

some of you must have beer goggles on. debbi taylor a cutie???? she is a lagoon creature!! as for carp, he is a good play by play man, better than mel, not that i ever got to see a game in 2005(comcast). my biggest problem is that don sutton is a braves lover and will be forever. all he talks about it how great maddux, smoltz, glavine and chipper are. i swear he dated john smoltz for at least a year. he thinks of himself as an outsider, whereas dave and charlie, carp and ray knight have all thrown themselves emotionally into the team. you can tell from the radio that charlie and dave live and die with the nats the way we do. sutton is an aloof jackhole who wants to be back on tbs

Hey Flynnie

Confederacy of dunces?

Hmmm... Well, I guess calling Debbi cute is a matter of taste, but I agree with "broadcast crew" and I also think that she is. And Amber from the O's is a little bit chunky. Not Dmitri or Ray King fat, mind you, but she could stand to lay off the M&Ms once in awhile. If you watch as many other team's broadcasts as you claim to, you would have certainly noticed that by now.

Sideline reporters are hired to entertain and to appeal to male viewers, any journalistic skill is just gravy. Or do you have another rational explanation as to why virtually all of them are attractive women, from super-babe Erin Andrews at ESPN all the way down to chunky Amber with MASN for the O's and pretty much everywhere in between. It's just that the O's are falling a little short in their choices in that regard, that's all. It isnt being a dunce to point out the obvious, but willfully ignoring the obvious just because it isnt polite or PC is pretty stupid.

And Matt is right that you NEVER have anything bad to say about the Nats.

I am sure I'll get flamed for this one, satire or not, but some of you are fun to provoke... :)

While we're piling it on, how about Sage Steele on the four-letter network?

If she's supposed to ease us into the morning by not putting too much pep and verve into her reporting, she certainly accomplishes just that.

Yo flynn! I think you're actually 419, who likes to egg people on. and on and on and on and on....

Or maybe swanni?

Any word on line-ups? I know it's Glavone on the mound tonight, but I hope J-Max gets the start in center.

Fear the Turtle!

Woops! John Maine, not Tom Glavine going for the Mets tonight.

Is that better or worse for J-Max?

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore?gid=270918120

I'm in center. We owe it to the teams in the playoff hunt to start our regular players even if they're our worst.

Poor Brandon Watson, the roster spot for mediocre defensive outfielders with less pop than a flat soda is already taken.

New post up

"Sideline reporters are hired to entertain and to appeal to male viewers, any journalistic skill is just gravy."

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I'd think as a sideline reporter you gotta have a lot more journalistic skill than yo flynn! thinks. (Anybody not seen that youtube clip of Miss South Carolina?)

But what do I know? Barry put up a new post with lineups. So dat be where I be going.

As a former PBP guy, I vote for Carpenter. He is technically close to perfect, but he should lose "See (Wait for it)You (Tired of waiting for it) Later." When it goes over the wall, Bob, you ain't gonna see it later. It's not a trademark, it's mindless showboating.

I also wish the powers that be would tell him to be less of a homer. Give the viewer credit for some intelligence.

And I'm thankful for Sutton, who teaches a 40-year baseball watcher something new every night. Can't think of a better analyst.

Yoo hoo, fellas. How's my hair? Am I appealing to you?

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"Sideline reporters are hired to entertain and to appeal to male viewers, any journalistic skill is just gravy."

You want Carpenter to be less of a homer? I think that is physicially impossible. He couches every attempt at a compliment of a Nats player in a criticism. And I for one am sick of him unfavorably comparing Zimmerman to the washed up and always injured Scott Rolen. Carpenter spent the first four and a half months constantly bragging on the other team and putting down the Nats; there was a sudden change mid-August (perhaps he began considering his contract status.) Too little too late.

Ran into Don Sutton before the game at the season ticket holder event (actually in the Saul Rivera line.) He signed a baseball and talked briefly with me and a couple other fans -- very gracious. Jon Rauch could learn a few things from him. Sutton told me that he is signed here for three more years.

I like Proctor but I understand the point of view of the detractors. There were too many Oriole stories from him and his trite catchphrases ('one run wonders!!!!!') got stale fast. I believe that they should hire someone who has some sort of base of knowledge about the baseball history here in DC. Its pretty clear that Bob Carpenter has no idea who Frank Howard even was (and since Hondo never played for the Cardinals, Carpenter could care less.)

Still wondering who is out there for play by play.

I am saddened and pissed that Bob Carpenter has been fired. I have been a baseball fan for over fifty years and think that Carpenter is one of the best overall baseball announcers I've ever listened to. He knows baseball,is interesting, well rounded, likeable and bright. He's not just another one dimensional franchise "yes" man announcer.
The Lerner family is making a big mistake!