Shawn Hill is a keeper. I love watching him in the dugout between innings -- he has a game face worthy of a Gorgon. It's hard to say whether or not he'll ever play a full season without injury, but this guy has earned his spot on the starting rotation. I say give him a chance.

This does not bode well for Hill. Someone else mentioned mechanical problems. I'm wondering what you meant by that. He does throw across his body a bit and that puts strain on the elbow, but other then that, I don't see it. What do you see?

I now put Hill in the JP category. The Nats should hang onto him, work with him, but not count on him. Until he can go 150-200 innings in a season, he'll never be a guy one can hang your hat on.

Speaking of arm injuries, those of you who want to give Detwiler a start - particularly now since it appears that not only Hill but also Chico (said his arm was fatigued in the gamer this morning) might be taken out of the rotation - that would be a huge mistake. The kid hasn't gone over 50 pitches in an outing in almost a month, and that was in a game simulation against Guzman. One of the quickest ways to injure an arm is to put a lot of stress on it after a long lay off. One start is not worth it. Keep the thoroughbred in the barn.

The Nationals would have had one of the league's better rotations this season - if they had stayed healthy. At some point, however, you have to "fish or cut bait" with the oft-injured arms. I think the Nationals are there with John Patterson. Hill, who has been injured almost as often, has a couple more years to prove himself. less perhaps if the team gets good faster than anticipated.

Perhaps the team should use Hill (and perhaps Patterson if he returns) in a reduced role next year as they both attempt to stay healthy with the hope that they can be counted on every day in the future.

And Barry, I never felt any "warm and fuzzy's" regarding the sinker until I watched Shawn Hill. He's made me a believer.

Barry, I am so sorry for your loss... :)

I like Hill's stuff, and his makeup. As posted in an earlier thread, I hope that after surgery he comes back better than ever, stays healthy, and reaches his full potential. OTOH, I realize that with our limited payroll, we've had to pick up pitchers where we can, and that can mean pitchers who are coming back from injuries, but I'm rather concerned about health issues for Nats pitchers generally. Maybe the team needs to look at training/fitness methods in the offseason?

Carrying this forward from a prior thread in an effort to get a handle on how the calculation works:

Sect. 506, that was me indulging in a flight of fancy as the fake Devil Rays in trying to reconcile my understanding of the Magic Number calculation with the numbers posted. Hope that you'll forgive my late-night whimsy. I really appreciate all of the work you've put into the GB/A and now the E standings over the season. My knowledge of baseball statistics is definitely not expert, but my understanding is that the Magic Number represents any combination of wins and/or losses that adds up to elimination of the opponent and that each win or loss by a team counts for .5. One formula that I've seen is adding 1 to the number of games per season (162), for a total of 163, then subtracting first our wins total (70 for the Nats) and then the opponent's losses total (90 for the Marlins, who were idle yesterday). Using that formula, I come up with a Magic Number of 3 for the Marlins rather than 2. Course, if that's so, it would merely delay the inevitable a bit longer for the fish (and the rays).

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No, Devil Rays, alas your poor knowledge of baseball statistics might demonstrate your inability to play. The Tragic, Magic, Elimination number is the number of wins by the leading team or losses by the trailing team that will result in elimination.

Thus, to stay in the game, the Nats would have to lose and you would have to win, every game.

Aw, a man-crush! How cute, Barry :-)

I'm remaining optimistic about Hill's future. I'd really like to see him back next year and healthy. He seems to have phenomenal potential.

You guys tell me how much of a stretch this is...

The Nats have their own version of Wood/Prior in Patterson/Hill. Each has dynamic if not dominating stuff when healthy and performing to potential but each has had more than their fair share of injuries.

Like the Cubs before, the Nats find themselves in a position where they'd be foolish to jettison either one given what they could become with a little bit of luck. However, unlike the Cubs, the Nats seem to be in a fortunate position to be able to let the Patterson/Hill experiment play out without having sunk large amounts of money into either, and without the added pressure of relying on either/both to get them into the post-season. I think that luxury runs out after next year but for now it seems smart to let it ride.

"Posted by: MKevin | September 25, 2007 09:11 AM"

What he said.

Somebody asked about Justin Maxwell's fielding abilities. Baseball America says he "is a true five-tool talent with above-average speed that translates well on the basepaths and in the outfield. A long strider, Maxwell has excellent range and a solid-average arm in center field."

He needs to play every day at AA Harrisburg next year, but pencil him in as the starter in CF in 2009.

I do not understand why so many people seem to be under the impression that Patterson will be part of the future of this team--including next season. To take from a recent analysis I found online:

- 30 years old at the start of next season
- Started 2000 on the DL. Went back on it May 6 for the rest of the season due to elbow.
- Started 2001 on the DL. Went back on the DL again on May 6 for the rest of the season due to elbow.
- Started 2002 recovering from injury, but finally showed something of value for Arizona after the All Start break.
- Spent 10 weeks in 2004 on the DL for a groin injury.
Spent about 2 weeks in 2005 on the DL from back spasms.
- Missed approx. 130 games in 2006 due to placement on the DL.
- Started 2007 with a ****show opening day, then promptly returned to his home on the DL for the remainder of the season.

With all this said, pardon me if I have a hard time believing he will be ready for spring training. BUT, let's give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he is. What indication is there that he can actually make it through a full season? A half season? Two weeks?

His career is defined by the DL list and his multitude of injuries. I don't fault the guy for being injured all the time. It is a really tough break for him, and it is too bad he cannot stay healthy. But, this club cannot afford to toy with career-injured players who may show promise next year, or the year after, or maybe the year after. How long are we going to wait for him? How long SHOULD we wait for him?

Maybe he will produce a good season or two in the future, but the odds suggest he will not because he will somehow find his way back to the DL. There is no guarantee he will ever return healthy. There is no guarantee that if he is healthy, he will consistently pitch as well as he has been able to at times. There is no guarantee that even if he does stay healthy and pitch well, his body will hold up for much more of a career. He is not 22 anymore where we are afforded the luxury of waiting around for him to heal and produce a solid career.

...just wait 'til Patterson's mom gets home, don't be delusional...

"But, this club cannot afford to toy with career-injured players who may show promise next year, or the year after, or maybe the year after. How long are we going to wait for him? How long SHOULD we wait for him?"

I contend the Nats can and should afford themselves the opportunity to give Patterson a chance to recover from the surgery he just had. They'll have the luxury of monitoring his progress during winter ball and should be able to make a judgment call on him before the season opens. I believe he's arbitration eligible this year. As he lost yet another year to injury he's certainly not going to be due a huge raise.

Let's face it, next year is not "the year". It's going to be another year to let the rotation solidify itself and see if they can't begin to build some sort of nucleus of talent and production in the position players.

How long do they continue to wait for him? As long as they're still rebuilding and can afford the spot in the rotation. As long as he remains a relatively inexpensive experiment. I do believe his time is running out. I think next year is do or die for him with this club. The stuff we saw in 2005 is just too tempting to cut ties with. Despite the progress the pitching staff made this year, how many guys does this team have that are better than the Patterson of 2005?

How bad would it be to non-tender him this off-season only to watch the Phillies, Mets or Braves pick him up and have him return to form? How hard would they be kicking themselves as he's dominating the Nats in front of the DC crowd in his grudge-match-return to Washington? They can afford one more season to make sure this doesn't happen.

While the Nationals returning to Minneapolis for an interleague series in 2008 doesn't make sense at the surface, there are a number of plausible explanations. Pick one or more from the following:

1. MLB wanted the Nationals to face both former Senators franchises in the same season.

2. Twins fans will be crushed if they they can't see Torii Hunter play, and scheduling the Nats at the Dome is the only way they could make that happen.

3. Johan Santana wants to get another good look at the team he's going to sign with in 2009. And another shot at beating Levale Speigner.

4. You can't beat the fishing.

5. Bowden really took a shying to Summit Extra Pale Ale (and the cops aren't nearly as much of a hassle in the Twin Cities as they are in Miami).

6. The league felt Barry should see his father more often.

I agree with 506 and MKevin, and others, that 2008 is not the year and that we should expect the Nats to tread water until the boys on the farm are ready. And I think that the earliest we should expect to see most of them as regulars is 2010 (this is consistent with signing the likes of Young and Belliard to two-year contracts).

I also agree that there is no harm in keeping Patterson and Hill around during that timeframe and hoping for the best.

By 2010-2012, with a lot of luck, maybe we're looking at this:

c Jesus Flores
1b Andrew LeFave
2b Stephen King
3b Ryan Zimmerman
ss Ian Desmond/Smiley Gonzalez
lf Chris Marrero
cf Justin Maxwell
rf Michael Burgess

sp Colin Balester, John Lannan, Colton Willems, Ross Detwiler, Glenn Gibson

cl Zech Zinicola

Well done, John in Mpls. I especially liked nos. 2 and 3!

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While the Nationals returning to Minneapolis for an interleague series in 2008 doesn't make sense at the surface, there are a number of plausible explanations. Pick one or more from the following:

What Bob L. and the others said.

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I agree with 506 and MKevin, and others, that 2008 is not the year and that we should expect the Nats to tread water until the boys on the farm are ready. And I think that the earliest we should expect to see most of them as regulars is 2010 (this is consistent with signing the likes of Young and Belliard to two-year contracts).

Much of this discussion is what makes the Hot Stove league so much fun. My personal take:

1. Everything is up in the air until we see how GEICO / Marriott / USPS park plays.

2. Matt Chico's value increases almost exponentially. He may not ever be the lights out pitcher that we all would like to see, but he's a lefty who is likely to give you 160 - 175 innings per year. For your Number 4 or 5 starter, that's a lot of innings to eat.

3. The thought that the league has any interest in seeing the Nats play the Ex-Nats & Ex-Senators is more than far fetched, but given MLB's thinking, maybe not.

4. Many of us over 50 (60?) are going to have to re-evaluate the way that we look at pitching staffs. We're now looking at 12 or 13 man staffs, with the likelyhood that at least 1/2 of the starting rotation will spend some time on the DL. This, of course, impacts on the rest of the roster, because Belliard, Fick, etc., who can play multiple positions become much more valuable.

5. Next year may be more than a tightrope effort. The new park will attract a number of valuable customers, particularly for the Luxury boxes, etc. and yet the club needs to begin to sniff .500 or there could be a serious turnoff factor. At the same time, the management can't commit to short timers, who won't really contribute to the real drive to competitiveness, which we will see in '10,'11, 12.

There's really no reason to non-tender John Patterson. Even though there is probably a better chance that he'll never pitch another inning for the Nationals than there is that he'll win another game for them, despite the automatic bump in arbitration salary he will still come cheap. And the Lerners are all over cheap, right? And as for Shawn Hill, just because his injury pattern seems to mirror Patterson's does not mean his outcome will be the same. He may yet make it back and become the pitcher he has shown he can be. His mental makeup deems to be a good deal different than Patterson's, and this might well factor in to a better outcome for him. But still, it would be good if the Nationals would do everything possible to avoid anointing Hill with the "ace" or "number one starter" or "anchor of the rotation" labels they put on Patterson heading into 2007. Even with his superior mental makeup, such a situation would just be setting Hill up for failure, and why do that? One way to avoid doing that would be for the Nationals to pick up a proven innings-eater who may be just heading into what will probably be the long, slow downslope of his career to serve as the anchor of the staff for the next year or two, until the Vermont crew is ready to take over. Someone who has thrown over 200 innings for the past eight straight years, which ought to allay any injury concerns. Someone named Livan Hernandez. I believe he's available after this season. Wouldn't it be nice if Shawn Hill and even perhaps John Patterson could work their ways back in the comfortable shadow of Livan? I doubt it would take big free-agent money to sign him, either. If the Nats can afford $10M over the next two years for Dmitri Young, they ought to be able to afford to bring Livo back, wouldn't y'all say?

Lafave at 1B? You are optimistic.

I think Lannan's spot in your rotation should go to the Zim Reaper, Jordan Zimmerman. Other than that it looks great!

Livo? Interesting. As much as it pains me to say so, it makes a certain amount of sense. I've never been Cheeseburger's biggest fan but I can see the value for the innings he eats up.

Also, how fitting would it be for him to be the starter in the return to DC and return for the opening of Verizon/XM|Sirius/"What Can Brown Do For You?" Park?

livan, colon, burgerking - the barrels! the possibilities! meats, chief, belly, slick nick.... thats a marketing campaign right there. someone with some free time and an imagination can take this.

The difference in my mind between Hill and Patterson is that one little line that Barry wrote about Hill: "He didn't lie about it."
Patterson's arm, we now know, hurt more than anything we can imagine, but he continued to let the team bill him as the ACE, for goodness sake. Granted, the team said 'Ace', not him, but he went along with it knowing he was hurt. And, still silent, he went out and pitched anyway with a result of something like 7+ ERA. Did he think we wouldn't notice?

With Hill, nobody said he was our unquestioned ace, including him, just that he could be. In fact, last I heard the guy was overly hard on himself. He doesn't get defensive, he doesn't make excuses, and he'll tell everyone when he's too hurt to play. For some reason this makes a huge difference in my mind between the two players and how I feel about their return.

I just trust Hill more than I do Patterson, physically and mentally, and thus I'm willing to be a little more patient with him.

DC Sports Chick: Barry's crush isn't on Shawn Hill. It's on Hill's sinker. Which is cuter!

Yo Barry,

So which is worse:

Not being able to see Hill's sinker again this season, or

Having Duke come within a hair's breath of beating Navy last weekend? :-)

And as for interleague, does this mean the Red Sox will have to wait until 2009 to come to Washington?

While I never voted for him, and feel sorry for him that his decisions turned out so very badly, George W. Bush has my gratitude for bringing baseball to this town, which would have never happened if he hadn't put it in his first State of the Union speech. (Something about a baseball field on the Potomac overlooking Arlington and America's Pastime for America's Capital.) There's only one name for the new park - Haliburton Field. God knows they can afford it, and it would be nice to get some of that money back from Oman.

Uh-oh, lookout. flynnie brought politics into the room.

I see how things work around here... the difference between having an original thought and being a yes man for a fellow blog-reader is one trip to the store... I come back, and all of you have already read my mind!

I mentioned this before... but I'll re-state it... If Patterson (or Hill, for that matter) were free agents (on a different team) would Bowden be pursuing them? Absolutely he would... these are exactly the kinds of guys that Bowden wants - lots of potential, and a checkered (by injury) past. I agree with the thinking 2008 isn't the year -- I think of The Plan like the moon landings -- This year was the equivalent of Apollo 7 or 8 -- can we assemble the pieces together and make the thing fly? Next year, can we get to the moon... the year after... can we land?

Patterson and Hill ~ Wood and Prior

I think that could be a good comparison... lets hope that the paths diverge in 2008... and our outcome is better.

Every team is going to win 50 and lose 50. It's what they do with the other 50 that counts. Barry thought they were going to win 12 of those 50. They have won 20 with 5 to go. They are 17 1/2 out of first. Barry was very close to perfect in his prediction and they haven't shown anybody anything except an inordinate pride in not being in last place.

Actually it will be Kellog, Brown and Root field.

If you don't get that Flynnie you should keep your mouth shut about politics on a baseball blog.

"If you don't get that Flynnie you should keep your mouth shut about politics on a baseball blog."

...especially in DC!

Barry-

Any chance you can dig into the interleague scheduling a bit more? I get the Orioles coming in to play, but why can't we just play all teams in the AL West? Still not sure why we played Toronto this season instead of the White Sox or Royals if we were in the AL Central rotation. Who designs this stuff?

"Still not sure why we played Toronto this season instead of the White Sox or Royals"

Because someone with a merciful heart knows that Toronto has to play the Yankees and Red Sox 19 times each.

Pain is relative. Tolerance of pain is relative. I have no idea if Hill's pain was more or less than Patterson's or if it was more or less than Bergmann's. What seems evident is that there is an actual identifiable injury that Hill has had to work through. He has the drive and perseverance to try to work through it. He has the talent to be rewarded for his efforts. As Jim Bowden says, 'don't blame the player' for the injury. And in Hill's case, because there is obvioulsy a payoff at the end of the rainbow, keep trying and keep supporting him. Can he be counted on? I don't know, but you should absolutely work toward having him in the rotation. We averaged less than 16 starts per rotation starter this year (Patterson, Hill, Bergmann, Chico, Williams, Bacsik, Bowie, Lannan, Redding, Hanrahan, Simontacchi, ....) That's a remarkably low average. Hill's gotta be in the plan for 08 whether you can count on him for 30+ or not. If nothing else, the Nats proved that there is no imperitive demanding a certain number of starters. The imperitive is you have to play 162 games.

I don't want to jinx anyone, BUT it looks pretty good for the Nats pulling out a game or two in the last five. All I really wanted was to meet or beat last year's record. With all the dire predictions (Barry's included of 62 - 100) of an "Historically bad season". I find it amusing to confound the pundits with a surprisingly competitive team on a bargain-basement budget.

All hail to Manny, Lenny, Jerry, Pat, Tim, Rick, and Randy, for an above and beyond job of coaching and managing this fourth place and proud of it team.

one thing for sure is nobody can predict what bowden will do this offseason. any move he does make (if) i will have confidence in.

why are the Lerners cheap again? i'm not sure i've seen any reason to believe that concerning ownership of this team. if their being cheap elsewhere affords them the freedom to spend freely (but still wisely please) on the Nats i say whoo hoo!

longterm this franchise looks golden to me. but 2009 success story feels rushed. every other team will be getting better also. the youth movement started league wide (in tandem with PEDs crackdown interestingly enough) same time this team moved to DC.

i'm ready to believe any hype building next years draft picks. but, every team is building from within now. it's not an ace in the hole by any measure as much as it is a race against other clubs. we just have enough openings to use the shotgun approach and hope 2 or 3 of these guys can stick each year.

i think maxwell will be starting centerfielder mid season 2008.

don't forget those cherry trees.

The Toronto series is a remnant of the Expos local interleague "rivalry." No Toronto series means the Nationals have shaken off one more Montreal tradition.

Sadly, it also puts to bed the greatest play call in Nationals Journal history. Ribs in Toronto?

The Minnesota series, that's a head-scratcher. But boy, I really hope it's true. Judging by the way he played fly balls in the Metrodome, I assume Ryan Church does not share my sentiment.

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I get the Orioles coming in to play, but why can't we just play all teams in the AL West? Still not sure why we played Toronto this season instead of the White Sox or Royals if we were in the AL Central rotation. Who designs this stuff?

FYI, Pirates hired a new GM, Rizzo is safe!

NatBiscuit, I think your information is off a little.
I don't know about the others, but at least Chico has at 30 starts. Barry's gamer about Chico said, "He made his 30th start of the season Monday -- second-most, to Boston's Daisuke Matsuzaka, among all rookies."
______________
"We averaged less than 16 starts per rotation starter this year (Patterson, Hill, Bergmann, Chico, Williams, Bacsik, Bowie, Lannan, Redding, Hanrahan, Simontacchi, ....)"

NatBiscuit was talking about averages, I think. Factoring in guys like Williams, Simontacchi, and Patterson, I think 16 games per starter seems close.

"FYI, Pirates hired a new GM, Rizzo is safe!"

At least until the Yankees meltdown in October and Cashman is burned in effigy.

There will of course be more than this one GM vacancy to worry about in the off-season. If they value him as much as they say they need to open the coffers and make sure he's here for the long haul.

In fact, if you take those 11 starters, you're looking at 14.7 starts per pitcher over the 162-game season.

It looks even worse when you consider, as NatsNut pointed out, that Chico started 30 games this year. That's only 127 starts to split between the remaining 10 pitchers, or 12.7 starts per pitcher.

ESJ, I agree Lafave might be a stretch. But we don't seem to have much else in the pipeline. Maybe we could move Marrero to first and keep Wily Mo in left?

The opening day 2008 rotation, at the moment (with 2007 ERAs in parentheses), looks like Bergmann (4.30), Chico (4.75), Redding (3.53), and two of Hanrahan (6.02), Hill (3.42 but hurt), Patterson (7.47 and hurt), Simontacchi (6.37), and possibly Enrique Gonzalez, the new guy from AZ (5.82 in 108 MLB innings in 2006-7). Based on that, it sure looks like we could use an innings-eating insurance pitcher.

Is Livo that guy? He will be 33 (in Cuban years) to start the season. This year he's 11-10 with a 4.85 ERA. He does have 200 innings, as always, but his strikeouts are down significantly -- this year his K/BB ratio is 87/76; his career average is more like 140/76. And he makes $7 mil.

Still, the free agent pitching market is remarkably thin. My verdict: If we could get him for two years, $10 million, it's a no brainer, do it. Two years, $15 million, still OK. More than two years, more than $15 million, just say no.

What about "Lukoil" or "Gazprom" field? The Soviets often claimed to have invented baseball, so why shouldn't Putin have his buddies reassert that claim as part of his effort to reclaim lost glory?

MKevin sez "If they value him as much as they say they need to open the coffers and make sure he's here for the long haul."

The only way the Nats could "open the coffers and make sure he's here for the long haul" would be to fire Bowden and hire Rizzo as GM under a long-term contract. As assistant GM, no matter how long he's under contract for, the Nats cannot keep him from breaking that contract and moving up to a GM job with another club. Likewise, if Rizzo really wants to be a GM as part of his personal career goals, and if the right job comes up and he's offered it I doubt he would care how big a paycheck he'd be leaving behind by breaking his contract with the Nats. Front-office contracts and rules are different than player contracts and rules. There's a "career path" within the front office jobs, and one team can't keep someone from advancing up that career path by moving to another team within MLB.

Whoa! I'm in agreement with 419 and with how he calmly presents the facts AND the psychology behind it! And, who said miracles can't happen for this team in September! All kidding aside, you're right on about keeping Rizzo - it's just a matter of time unless you give him the reins.
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About JPat: This year, he was hurt in early May, but played a couple more games. Could it be that he was just trying to avoid May 6 for the 3rd time in his career?

"- Started 2000 on the DL. Went back on it May 6 for the rest of the season due to elbow.
- Started 2001 on the DL. Went back on the DL again on May 6 for the rest of the season due to elbow. "
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Finally, I have to second the above post:
"I just trust Hill more than I do Patterson, physically and mentally, and thus I'm willing to be a little more patient with him."

I'll play the yes woman here, Wigi. Excellent point!

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I see how things work around here... the difference between having an original thought and being a yes man for a fellow blog-reader is one trip to the store... I come back, and all of you have already read my mind!

I mentioned this before... but I'll re-state it... If Patterson (or Hill, for that matter) were free agents (on a different team) would Bowden be pursuing them? Absolutely he would... these are exactly the kinds of guys that Bowden wants - lots of potential, and a checkered (by injury) past. I agree with the thinking 2008 isn't the year -- I think of The Plan like the moon landings -- This year was the equivalent of Apollo 7 or 8 -- can we assemble the pieces together and make the thing fly? Next year, can we get to the moon... the year after... can we land?

Attaboys!

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All hail to Manny, Lenny, Jerry, Pat, Tim, Rick, and Randy, for an above and beyond job of coaching and managing this fourth place and proud of it team.

Great call, worthy of the NJ Hall of Fame!

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Sadly, it also puts to bed the greatest play call in Nationals Journal history. Ribs in Toronto?

Section 419. Time for a new name.

News from the Ronald Reagan Institute for Naming Things After Ronald Reagan...Nats begin play at Ronald Reagan Park, which sits along the Reagan River and the newly named Navy Yard Presented by Ronald Reagan

What exactly was the ribs call?

love, I think even the former Republican Congress would have shied away from acquiring the naming rights with taxpayer dollars.

I think the frontrunners have to be Sprint Nextel (to compete with Verizon) and Capital One.

Next season might be a great time to try this little experiment out. Marrero moved from third base to the outfield because of Zimmerman, but his defense has left much to be desired. Maybe you return him to the infield for 2008 and see how he handles the new position.

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ESJ, I agree Lafave might be a stretch. But we don't seem to have much else in the pipeline. Maybe we could move Marrero to first and keep Wily Mo in left?

John in Mpls, I say we start playing Marrero at first in spring training and see how it goes. It can't hurt.

Nationals Journal, June 13th, "Home on the Road." Barry posts,

"Back in the chair from Skydome ... er, Rogers Centre in Toronto over the weekend. Canadian Shawn Hill gave me a dinner recommendation last night. Baton Rouge. "Do you like ribs?" he asked. I said I did. Ryan Langerhans, from Texas, said, "Ribs in Toronto?" and then walked away."

Well, Langerhans hits a home run that night, and, in the greatest call in Nationals Journal history, Ava posts the following:

"Ryan Langerhans: "Ribs in Toronto? Ribs in Toronto?! RIBS in TORONTO?!?! YEARGH!"

And then he hit a home run. So I think the answer to this problem is that Barry just needs to get him riled up every night with the thought of Canadians stealing good ole Texas food."

Hey, it makes sense to me. Let's consider the guy a 1B next year. I don't think anyone is expecting him to crack the Nationals lineup - especially as an outfielder - so let him get as many plays there as he can.

The Nationals did the same for Kasto in Spring Training last year for the same reason. Still, it shouldn't be limited to Spring Training (unless he just looks awful).

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John in Mpls, I say we start playing Marrero at first in spring training and see how it goes. It can't hurt.

There was a whole series of calls, which I saved in a Word file 'cause they made me laugh:

Ryan Langerhans: "Ribs in Toronto? Ribs in Toronto?! RIBS in TORONTO?!?! YEARGH!"
And then he hit a home run. So I think the answer to this problem is that Barry just needs to get him riled up every night with the thought of Canadians stealing good ole Texas food.
Posted by: Ava | June 13, 2007 11:49 PM

Ryan Langerhans: "Seriously! Ribs in Toronto! That doesn't even make sense! Gar!"
And then he hit a double!
Way to sweep, boys. That'll do, Nats. That'll do.
Posted by: Ava | June 14, 2007 09:46 PM

Ryan Langerhans says, "You want ribs in Toronot? Oh, I'll SHOW you ribs in TORONTO."
Ryan Langerhans is funny. I'm glad he's on our team.
Posted by: Ava | June 15, 2007 09:41 PM

Sect. 506 also gets an NJ Hall of Fame nod for his Phillies rant thread. :)

Whether Hill is eligible for arbitration or not this offseason (I never can track these things properly), he's not apt to get a huge bump in salary -- pretty much the same situation that MKevin notes about JP.

Thus, unless the bottom falls out of Hill's career, an investment in him for 2008 is apt to pay some dividend. He may be a rotation guy or a reliever -- it's too early to tell now -- but he can probably make some contribution. And if he can't, while we'll be sad, it won't be as if the entire franchise was mortgaged on his return.

To be sure, I'd be alarmed if Hill were to balk at being asked to play some role other than every-fifth-day starter. But I don't see him offering that kind of resistance -- he doesn't seem to be that kind of guy, and this is the kind of club where players step up wherever they're asked to (cf. Bacsik, M.).

Thanks for the background on the Ava and the ribs.

We need to get Langerhans riled up here in Washington, he's still hitting .163 on the year, which (according to Capitol Punishment) would be one the worst offensive performances ever by an outfielder.

They might work with Marrero at 1B in the fall instructional league as well as continuing to on his outfielding and start to get a feel for where his physical attributes and talents makes a best fit for him.

My guess is he stays in the outfield, hard hitting first basemen are not too tough to find, but if he works well at the #1 bag it would make thing simpler.

You're welcome. Did the site have a split for pre-Nats and post-Nats stats? I was thinking that he'd been hitting better since coming here, but maybe that was only initially. I like his defense for sure.

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Thanks for the background on the Ava and the ribs.

We need to get Langerhans riled up here in Washington, he's still hitting .163 on the year, which (according to Capitol Punishment) would be one the worst offensive performances ever by an outfielder.

Just so you guys know, the Nats are currently teaching Marrero to play 1B in the Fall Instructional League.

Or to quote JimBo from his Examiner post:
"Chris Marrero was voted best hitting prospect in two different leagues and is presently learning first base in Instructional League. When he takes batting practice with Burgess, everybody stops and watches as the balls tower over the outfield walls like missiles."

Estuartj, you are good, you beat me to it.

When did the Fall instructional
league start?

returning to the bullpen topic: Ayala may surprise us with his trade value. I think there are several GMs out there who know the history of TJ surgery come-backs and would take a risk on him as long as the Nats do not ask for the moon. A high OBP CF or SS in the minors or a non-starter one now on a 25 man roster who still has upside might be a fit. I'd love to have Maicer Izturis back, and the Angels need to make room for IF prospects. Wilson Betemit if A-Rod sticks?

Langerhans 2007 stats:

Oakland:
.000/.200/.000 2 G, 4 AB, 0 H, 0 RBI, 1 BB, 2 SO

Atlanta:
.068/.192/.091 20 G, 44 AB, 3H, 1 RBI, 6 BB, 16 SO

Washington:
.193/.288/.366 100 G, 161 AB, 31 H, 6 HR, 22 RBI, 21 BB, 63 SO

So, yes. Technically he has hit better in Washington, but it's not something I'd be proud of if I were him.

BTW .. check out his strikeouts: 81 SO's in only 209 AB's! That's one strikeout every 2.5 at-bats. Ouch!

Langerhans is hitting better in DC than he did in Atlanta, but that's not saying much. Down south, he was 3-44 (.068). Here, he's 31-161 (.193).

Langerhans came to the Nats with a batting average in the .080's, so getting up to .163 is quite an improvement.

I remember because my Braves fan dad and brother and kept calling him "wankerhands" and voicing utter disgust with him when we watched braves/nats games together early in the season. Then they gave me a bunch of crap when we got him.

John in Mpls, thanks for the average-inning-per-starter clarification. Put that way, it definitely makes NatBiscuit's point.

Oops. I guess Langerhans' BA wasn't the .080's, but the .060's. Yikes. It was worse than I thought.

Wow, pretty cool that Marrero is learning first in the instructional league right now. Here's the Bowden article:

http://www.examiner.com/a-945110~New_instructional_team_could_key_Nats__future.html

Also, there is this from another local paper that shall remain nameless:

"Forty-nine Nationals farmhands will participate in the Fall Instructional League. Workouts begin Sept. 17 in Viera, Fla., with a 16-game schedule beginning Sept. 22. Among the organization's top prospects playing this fall are pitchers Luis Atilano, Glenn Gibson, Josh Smoker, Colton Willems and Jordan Zimmermann; infielders Stephen King and Esmailyn Gonzalez; and outfielders Michael Burgess, Mike Daniel and Chris Marrero."

In addition, the Nats are affiliated with the Peoria Javelinas of the Arizona Fall League, which can be found here:

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/about/page.jsp?ymd=20070827&content_id=295115&vkey=about_l119&fext=.jsp&sid=l119

The Javelinas roster currently includes the following Nats: Adam Carr, Garrett Mock, Alex Morales, Zech Zinicola, Jesus Flores, Kory Casto and Justin Maxwell. Play starts October 9.

Thanks, e, Bob L., and NatsNut for the Langerhans splits. You're all great!

"Started 2000 on the DL. Went back on it May 6 for the rest of the season due to elbow.
- Started 2001 on the DL. Went back on the DL again on May 6 for the rest of the season due to elbow."

First of all Delusional, it would help to get your facts straight. Patterson started 2000 on the DL and had TJ surgery on May 25. He started 2001 on the DL, but made his first start on May 13 and was rehabbing all year in the minor leagues. He made his major league debut on July 20, 2002, allowing 1 run and 3 hits in 6 innings for a no-decision; won his first game on July 25 by pitching 7.1 shutout innings against SD, allowing 5 hits. All this info is readily available in the Nats Media Guide.

I am not as enamored of Hill's sinker as Barry is, I prefer Patterson's "Bugs Bunny curveball", but I think that both pitchers have enough potential, when healthy, to warrant keeping them. Can you imagine what our rotation would be like if Patterson returned to his 2005 form and Hill realized his potential at the same time. From 2000 when he had TJ surgery until the spring of 2006, Patterson had no arm problems, which gives him a better record than Hill at this point. Hill had TJ surgery in 2005 and has yet to have a full season without arm problems. Perhaps this is just bad luck for both of them and not an indication that their arms are truly fragile. Also, Patterson's arm did not start hurting on May 5, the day before he went on the DL this season, but actually began in March. I saw his first start in Viera and he looked good. His next start was also very good as he pitched 4 innings without allowing a baserunner. However, the next day his arm started hurting and hurt almost constantly until he had surgery 10 days ago. I'm not sure why he said so many times that it was fine, when anyone familiar with his pitching could tell that it was not - surely Acta and ST. Claire must have known! I do believe that with the "Ace" label and being the #1 starter on an inexperienced staff, he felt some pressure - possibly self-imposed, I don't know - to go out and pitch through it and hope that eventially it would either go away, or he would be able to adapt and pitch effectively anyway. He clearly wanted to pitch and the Nats medical staff was not doing anything to relieve the pain, so he might as well try to pitch, which he did until it finally got to be too much for him. I would certainly not call him a liar. He was trying to make the best of a situation over which he had no control.

Section 419, you say that Hill has "superior mental makeup" to Patterson - could you clarify that statement for me? I would like to know what you mean.

And again, I am NOT JP's mom - Grandma would be closer to it age-wise, not relation-wise!

i like this article also...

http://www.examiner.com/a-805401~Draft_picks_with_a_sleeping_bag_and_Lucky_Charms.html

"Section 419, you say that Hill has "superior mental makeup" to Patterson - could you clarify that statement for me? I would like to know what you mean."

A much better game face, to start. No "delicate flower" he...

And we came up with the idea all by ourselves. Someone should hire us on as consultants.

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Just so you guys know, the Nats are currently teaching Marrero to play 1B in the Fall Instructional League.

Let's not forget Dave Jaegler's photographic memory on display last night, reminding us that the last time the Met's pitching coach visited Pelfrey on the mound, Ronnie Belliard hit a home run on the next pitch. Sure enough, Austin Kearns hit a home run on the next pitch!

How could you be?!? The guy has a shrine to the pitch at his house, complete with candles he lights every fifth day.

During NJ meetings, he draws little baseballs in the corner of his notebook, and when you flip through the pages, the animated pitch looks just like Hill's sinker!

And I got a tip from a reliable source that a restraining order has been filed by Hill's sinker. This is why Barry is passing the Beat Writer torch next season - he's not allowed to be in the park when Hill's pitching!

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I am not as enamored of Hill's sinker as Barry is...

Whoa! What is this about Barry passing the beat writers torch? For some of us, he is the principal source of all Nats information. I may need to schedule some treatment if Barry is not around next year.

That was funny. He predicted one for Church under similar circumstances but it ended up being a double.

I liked it when Slowes' head split due to the noise level at Shea...serenity now...serenity now...

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Let's not forget Dave Jaegler's photographic memory on display last night, reminding us that the last time the Met's pitching coach visited Pelfrey on the mound, Ronnie Belliard hit a home run on the next pitch. Sure enough, Austin Kearns hit a home run on the next pitch!

New post is up. Enjoy.

Longterm, great article on the Burgess signing, thanks!!

New post, folks.

longterm,
Thanks for the link to the Burgess signing piece!

Strange, I had no idea JimBow posted a weekly column on the Ex... and I call myself a fan! P-Shaw! ;-)

Zimmy has one on Fridays, in case you didn't know that. I think there's an archive.

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Strange, I had no idea JimBow posted a weekly column on the Ex... and I call myself a fan! P-Shaw! ;-)

Yer funny, John!

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How could you be?!? The guy has a shrine to the pitch at his house, complete with candles he lights every fifth day.

During NJ meetings, he draws little baseballs in the corner of his notebook, and when you flip through the pages, the animated pitch looks just like Hill's sinker!

And I got a tip from a reliable source that a restraining order has been filed by Hill's sinker. This is why Barry is passing the Beat Writer torch next season - he's not allowed to be in the park when Hill's pitching!

I say "ALL HAIL" to J. Bow ! Where would this team be without Da Meat Hook and Belliard!!The GM is a genious.