If it was Memorial Day and Hill had made 8-9 decent starts boverall and this happened I would say OK, slow him down, let's skip a start or two and see if we can get him through the season. In Spring Training though, when he hasn't been throwing since September? Doesn't bode well for him, at least as a starter.

Barry, any idea whether the pain increases as the innings go by, such that he becomes less effective after a certain number of pitches? I'm certainly hoping he can pitch through this and be a starter on this team, but if he was better off pitching 1-3 innings every 3-4 days instead of more innings in the regular rotation, well then, he still might be a heck of an asset out of the pen. Maybe that's the identity of this team for the next year or two. We throw a Chico, a Lannan, a Ballester out there, and if they pitch well, great, and if not, then we have 6-7 guys in the pen that can keep us in the game while we wait for the offense to come around.

I'm not writing Hill off by any means at this early stage, just trying to find a potential silver lining if indeed his pain proves chronic.

continuing from earlier post...

*yawn* is how i feel about the whole "signing mediocre FA pitching" argument. it's just a repeat of the same pap that shows a lack of understanding of the game. history has shown that rarely does the signing of mediocre FAs, particularly mediocre FA SPs, do anything other than help you maintain mediocrity. so any argument that the lack of spending money on mediocre FA SPs makes the FO/ownership "cheap" just shows a lack of understanding of the game. at least imnsvho. but i'm not looking for something to complain about every second of the day.

... I'm an old guy; my memory gets weaker by the day. ... what was I going to say?

... oh yeah, I hear the "Lerner's are cheap" mantra on a regular, if not daily basis, but I can't remember how it all started.

... so let me ask you this: was there ever a time when JimBow had his eye set on some stud (probably from the Reds) but was not allowed to get him because the owners said No? Is that where this all started?

... if not, could somebody refresh my memory, about the genesis of this battle cry?

Go Nick Johnson! Go Nats!!

... and oh yeah. No need to worry about Shawn Hill; he's a good ole Canadian boy, eh?

Sorry to go off topic but Ryan Church and Marlon Anderson had a collision similar to the nick johnson collision anderson is ok but church has a concusion and is likely out for a extended peiod of time that's what he gets for trashing the nats.

Sorry to go off topic but Ryan Church and Marlon Anderson had a collision similar to the nick johnson collision anderson is ok but church has a concusion and is likely out for a extended peiod of time that's what he gets for trashing the nats.

Sorry to go off topic but Ryan Church and Marlon Anderson had a collision similar to the nick johnson collision anderson is ok but church has a concusion and is likely out for a extended peiod of time that's what he gets for trashing the nats.

Sorry to go off topic but Ryan Church and Marlon Anderson had a collision similar to the nick johnson collision anderson is ok but church has a concusion and is likely out for a extended peiod of time that's what he gets for trashing the nats.

Sorry to go off topic but Ryan Church and Marlon Anderson had a collision similar to the nick johnson collision anderson is ok but church has a concusion and is likely out for a extended peiod of time that's what he gets for trashing the nats.

Oh I would say it started with Alfonso not getting an offer and then cutting payroll in half and putting together a team of Fick, Jimmerez, etc off the bench and Basick (still here!), Williams, Jason S, Laval Spagner etc last year.....then the whole RFK game day experiences sucked after promises to improve them by spending money at RFK, then not making any FA offers to any CF'ers this winter....then.....here we are today.....Going into a key 4th year in Washington with their eyes, ears closed to the obvious short slightness of depending on Hill and Patterson as your 1 and 2 guys.......oh and don't forget Ronnie's bats not getting paid for because he already got one case........

hopefully, this is only residual post-surgical soreness that occurred because Hill really turned it loose in Spring training.

I think DJ 26 has mental issues you no you love church if you care that much.

231,

Very well said, I couldn't have said it better myself.

I just don't see how throwing money at say, fat Livo, Brett Tomko and Perez makes us any better. Crap on fine china or a paper plate is still what?....Crap.

Hope that Church has no residual ill effects from the concussion. He's not a particular favorite of mine but I'd not wish that on him or anyone.

FYI, just thought this Craigslist DC posting was interesting"

"Hello Baseball Enthusiast, here is a gig that will pay you to watch your favorite hometown Major League Baseball team for the upcoming 2008 baseball season.
Interested candidate MUST meet the following basic requirements:
- Speak and announciate Chinese Mandarin well.
..."

LOL at anybody complaining the Lerners are cheap because they don't sign Livo or Jason frigging' Jennings. They, Stan, and JimBo are only building a team that will be taking regular hot dumps on the rest of the NL East, and all of baseball for that matter, in about three years. And yet some of you want some mediocre soft arm that will simply give you a slightly better chance to win a 6-5 game than lose one 7-6. Give me a break.

Sit back, shut up, and try to show the rest of the baseball world that we actually are a knowledgeable fanbase and not a bunch of frontrunners worried about the present value of their season tickets. This is a long term investment, donkeys.

first, that was NOT our Bob. Bob knows.

then, Church and Marlon -- wasn't someone just commenting on the Nats' fielders not calling fly balls?

It looks like Church and Marlon Anderson are OK, according to Ryan's uncle who posted this on the Mets board:

"Inside info, Church and Marlon just released from hospital. Both are fine. Church doesn't even have a headache and said "I'm GOOD TO GO"! I'm sure they will get a couple of days off."

glad to hear they're ok. i saw something about their collision earlier.

"I would say it started with Alfonso not getting an offer"

i pretty much stopped reading there...

Also glad to hear they're doing okay.

Did Alfonso get an offer? Not saying they should have paid the price but the question was when the Lerner's are cheap started......I would have enjoyed watching Alfonso last year instead of Logon or Church.....maybe that's just me.....Oh and last I checked the Cubs went from last to first in one year by spending money.....just saying how the Lerner's are cheap thing started....

"Oh I would say it started with Alfonso not getting an offer"

You mean that's when all this cluelessness about the Lerners being cheap started? Okay, I'll buy that. Because anyone who says Soriano didn't get an offer from the Nationals is clueless. He got an offer from them. It wasn't high enough for him, but he never called back to say that. He just signed with the Cubs. It's quite clear he never wanted to come back here, since he never entered into the negotation process with the Nationals. It takes two to tango, and he never wanted to tango with the Nats after his one year here was over. The Lerners never had a chance to show whether or not they are cheap in the whole Soriano affair, because he never game them the chance. He heard the first offer and just walked away without negotiatng. Who's to say whether or not the team would have come back with a higher offer if he'd let them? We'll never know. So if that's the linchpin act in anyone's "the Lerners are cheap" argument, it destroys your whole argument before it has even begun.

i would have enjoyed watching him last year, too. i particularly enjoyed his 3 HR night against the braves in 06. but that doesn't mean i think they're cheap for not offering $100m+ to him. and anything less would have been a joke to him, so why bother making a low-ball offer? sure you don't want to complain that we didn't beat the $126m offer to zito, too?

"then not making any FA offers to any CF'ers this winter."

That's probably because they acquired a centerfielder in trade. His name is Lastings Milledge. Perhaps you missed that news and were wondering why Church and Schneider weren't playing much this spring? And oh, yeah, they have this other guy they picked up who can hit and play any of the outfield positions. His name is Elijah Dukes. Surprised you haven't heard of him - it was pretty big news around here when they got him. Even the Washington Post covered it.

You know, just because the Lerners/Kasten/Bowden aren't running the team the way you would like them to doesn't make them cheap. If you think they're not doing a good job, you need to come up with a more robust argument if you expect to be taken seriously.

Again....just answering someones question on how the whole Lerners are cheap thing started.....I don't blame Alfonso for not calling back once he hurt the first offer....even you 411 could guess how low it was....I like some things the team is doing and not others....I like the Drafting, but I hate the false premise that money not spent now somehow helps them win 3 years form now. Just keep the contracts for FA to 1-3 years unless you get a player....Roland example? who will still be playing in his prime 3-5 years out.

The whole idea that running out AAA at best Pitching is somehow helping the team down the road I do not believe. Putting Chico out there last year was all about saving money....he is not ever going to be a starter or reliever on a team that wins the division and the money saved by not signing true MLB pitchers is not ever going to be spent 3 years from now. That is not now accounting works, if you think it does then lets see an account that carriers over year to year that the team can draw on.....I do not think that account exist on the books.

really, i don't care if it "makes them better in 3-5 years" so much. i don't think it makes them much better *NOW* to sign mediocre players, let alone 2, 3, 5 whatever years down the line. and it particularly doesn't help if you *overpay* to do it. no reason to waste money, even if they aren't putting the money they didn't waste into the franchise in another way.

btw, only mediocre or flawed (or really old) FAs sign for 1-3 years. the really good ones generally go 4-8 yrs.

oh, and i'm still not buying the premise that the soriano situation is a *legitimate* answer to "why the lerners are cheap" question.

Greg Maddux and Tom Glavin both signed one year deals in fall of 2006. Nationals could have signed one or both even and had huge improvement over 2007 Williams, Chico, Jason S, Joel H classes....The difference....$$ and they could have signed them both and still reduced payroll from 2006 team......but I know you don't like wasting others money...except mine as a season ticket holder who must watch AAA wash ups load the bases on walks while we are told this helps build a team to win soon!

1- Obviously none of you really read my post about the free agent pitchers. If you had, you would have seen that I wasn't proposing that we sign any of them, just trying to start a discussion about what is better: Signing an expensive veteran to hold down the fort until your young guys are ready, or just throwing the young guys out there and letting then sink or swim? It's not just about whats good for the team NOW, but also the long-term health (physically and success-wise) of your organization.

2- Why do people on here keep using the term "overpay"? Overpay compared to what? Why do you even care? It's not your money. I'd understand if there was a salary cap like there is in other sports, or even if there was an unofficial ownership-enforced cap. But there's not, and even if there is, we don't know what it is. So quit using the term "overpay" and using the amount of money as a reason not to sign someone. Unless we start approaching Sox-Yankee territory and/or it starts hurting the franchise, it's irrelevant.

From Barry's story....the kind of stuff that really makes me made...." And we do have enough guys here to throw five guys out there." -Acta

When is this team going to raise the bar on what is acceptable starting pitching....it is NOT just 5 quys who can reach home plate...sometimes...recall Chico's pitch last April that hit the 1st base stands....

Man, the snark has been back today...

Its spring training!!! enjoy it!! BASEBALL IS BACK FINALLY!

wow, the snark is sure back...

Relax everyone, its spring training. Baseball is finally back!!!

jayb, any evidence that glavine or maddux would even consider DC? glavine resigned to be the #1 on a team considered the favorite in the NL to go to the WS. what would be his incentive to come to DC? he's at the end of his career and wants to win now.

maddux? pretty much the same thing (contender, tho, not favorite). plus, IIRC, he's from california.

some of the suggestions seem to forget that the player has to actually be interested, too. it's not just about throwing money at them. plus there's a presumption that, because you didn't hear about it, that no call was made at all. for all you know, JB called both of their agents and was told, "thanks, but no thanks." can't say one way or the other if there was any contact at all.

and sorry, matt, you can't have it both ways. if people want to accuse ownership of being "cheap" because they "don't overpay," well that's just ridiculous. you act as if sports owners *owe* it to you to spend whatever you think they should to sign the players you want. but since it's not your money, it's really easy to say, "they should spend $136m on soriano!" (or something like that, insert your own "market setting" contract).

as far as reading your post, i did. doesn't mean i have to agree with you. three guys on your list were any kind of quality pitchers last year, glavine, petitte, and silva. and silva's the #4-5 starter on seattle's team. the rest were all question marks (injuries, poor performance, or both) going into FA (hence why all signed 1-2 year deals).

look at the guys they are proposing for the nats rotation. all of them have major league experience. maybe chico could have used more seasoning last year, and maybe even more this year if he was on a team with a deeper rotation of quality starters, but this isn't the same group they were talking about last year. there's more experience in the group of SPs than there was last year. it's not like chico, bergmann, and lannan have never seen the majors, and they're the guys competing for the last couple of spots in the rotation, not to be the 1-2 guys.

is the rotation a strength? no. would signing any of the guys on your list change that? nope. would signing any of the guys on that list who *would have* considered washington seriously significantly improve the rotation? *shrug* there's plenty of room for discussion on both sides of that coin.

by "seasoning" above, i meant "seasoning in the minors."

blah, blah, blah, Lerners are cheap, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah blah, blah, blah, no they aren't,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah....

Barry,

... do you know anything about the Boz interviewing Jose Vidro, and asking him if he was a car, what kind would he be?

Go Tim Tolman! Go Nats!!

Wanted to respond to a few old posts -- I'm not sure we can say the Lerner's are cheap for not signing some of these free agents being discussed. What I like about the Lerner's is that they seem to be letting the people they hired - Kasten and Bowden - make the baseball decisions. I don't agree with all of their decisions and I think the Nats can do better at GM -- in fact I think Mike Rizzo would be a better choice right now -- but I'm glad they get to do their job. I don't know of a single case where Bowden wanted a player and the Lerners blocked it for money reasons.

One thing that's interesting to me is that, besides Zimmerman, EVERY person in the starting line-up was obtained from another organization. Look, C - Flores (R5), LoDuca (FA) 1b - Johnson (trade), Dmitri (FA); 2b - Belliard (FA), Lopez (trade), SS - Guzman (FA), LF - Dukes, Pena (trades), CF - Milledge (trade), RF - Kearns (trade). It shows that Bowden has been active and how incredibly poor the Nats farm system was until the Lerners bought the team. If they go wild on FA's now, they deplete the farm and might have one good year, but 10 bad ones.

JayB is advocating the model other teams have used without much success, except the ones that can spend gobs of money like Boston, NY teams and Chicago. I'd rather see the Nats build their farm and THEN go after FA's - I'd like to see at least 3 position players from the system before that happens. I can understand the desire to win now, but I'd like them to build a team that is in the hunt every year, a sustainable winner.

Anyway, I think the team needs to have a Plan B now for not having Hill and Patterson around much this year. We might see Balester and Detwiler earlier than we think. I'm glad we have some guys to fill in like Redding and Perez so we don't have to rush the young guys.

On the Baltimore - Washington rivalry I see three types:

-- those who like both teams and want to see both leagues

-- those who respect each other's choices and have an intelligent, friendly rivalry

-- those who ignore the other team

-- and, a fourth, Baltimoreans who hate everything about Washington -- so much they won't even go see the National Christmas Tree, the Vietnam Memorial, the Cherry Blossoms or a show at the Kennedy Center, let alone a sports event. It's a crazy, irrational prejudice against a CITY, for crying out loud. I have Baltimore area friends with PhD's that have this bizzare hatred of D.C. Just weird.

Can someone please explain to me what Jack Kent Cooke did that was so wrong to Baltimore? Even when no football was in Baltimore, NBC showed AFC games every Sunday. No one in Baltimore had to watch the Redskins -- not true of DC baseball fans for 33 long seasons of seeing only orange and black.

I think the Hill soreness is upsetting. If the MRI was clean, what this Dr. really tell us on Monday? I'd the say odds of Hill making 25 starts just went down to 3-1.

Hope Church is OK and think they guy who was happy about Church being hurt needs to find another blog.

We may not get many more voyeuristic opportunities between Barry and Hill's sinker. With two stories about the guy, I gotta take advantage and post this again. You all crack me up pretty regularly, but this one, by far, wins funniest post in my book:
___________________

Washington, DC - Washington Post reporter Barry Svrluga, who covers the Major League Washington Nationals, appeared in district court yesterday to challenge alleged violations of a restraining order filed by the sinker pitch of Nationals right-handed pitcher Shawn Hill.

The judge upheld the restraining order, prohibiting Svrluga from making any direct contact with the pitch and forcing the writer to maintain at least a 1,000-foot distance at all times.

While Hill himself did not arrive for the proceedings, his sinker was present and very lively.

"At first, his attention was a welcome change. It was like he saw something in me that no one else did," the formidable breaking ball stated.

But when a curious interest developed into what the sinker called "an all-out obsession," the pitch felt it necessary to take action. It filed a restraining order last year after Svrluga "crossed the line" following a May 11th appearance in the District.

"It was distracting. It was frightening. I couldn't do my job. I just felt flat," the sinker testified, in tears.

According to police reports, the restraining order was first violated on August 14. Numerous subsequent violations were also introduced by the sinker's attorney.

Hill could not be reached for comment.

Svrluga, who spent much of the early portion of the court session establishing the correct pronunciation of his name, pointed out that the restraining order impeded his ability to earn a living.

"I write about the Nationals," he pleaded.

"Well, maybe you should write about the Redskins," the judge responded.

Posted by: John in Mpls | January 24, 2008 10:29 AM

For those of you who missed it the first time, this is how Kasden built the Braves in the late-80s/early-90s. They ran out some pretty bad teams, while their prospects did their time in the minors. They didn't start signing big free agents (see: Maddux, Greg) until after the core of the team was up in the bigs, and competitive. Seems to me it worked out pretty well.

All it took was one piece of medical bad news - Hill's pain - for all of the old arguments about FA pitchers to resurface. 231 and 419+1 have it right - don't overpay for mediocrity (look at Angelos's results!).

The underlying argument is whether it makes a difference to win 80 games vs 73 - which is the best case result of using FA pitching. Kasten has explicitly said it's not worth it - if you're not challenging for championships you might as well prioritize the future, not the present. As a fan, I'd like a few more wins, but in a couple of years we'll fondly reminisce about the Bacsiks and Simontacchis if we're challenging the Mets, Braves and Phillies.

And look at last year - they finished 10-15 games better than predicted with a scrap heap of starters. They do have bullpen strength, and please don't argue that they overused the relievers. All evidence is that good scouting and coaching - like the Nats' - can stock a bullpen. Again, compare with the Angelos regime up the road - did big FA dollars fix their bullpen?

And JayB, you shot your own argument about Soriano - a 1-3 year contract wouldn't net him at any price. Is he going to be worth his salary in 2011? It is too bad they couldn't get value in a deadline trade, but oh well. Sorry, I forget which pitchers they drafted with his picks but they needed numbers in the minors. The youngsters may pitch for us or be trade bait (how about for a shortstop).