"Acta said they'll have to get a feel for how long it takes Chico to get warm in the bullpen. He won't be thrown into a late-game situation right now."

Leaving them (more) shorthanded, again.

from previous post. Espn article on dukes.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?id=3382818

Good point about leaving an overworked bull pen short handed yet again. I still think the team would be better with 12 arms and less Rob M or Johnny E.....Barry are these moves Jimbo's or Acta's.....When is this team going to start running the roster like it is May not Feb?

wait... because *one* reliever won't be used in the 8th or 9th for some (presumably short) period of time while they figure out how long it'll take him to warm, that leaves the bullpen short?

how often were they using o'connor in the late innings?

how often were they using o'connor in the late innings?
----------------------------------------
Who's O'Connor?

(ok,ok, I'm just kidding!)

Great, now that Barry's leaving it's okay to actually have his mug shot as part of NJ? :-)

231,

The problem has been an on going one for the bull pen all year.....putting a starter (AAA at best) in the Bull pen and then not knowing how to use him or if he can even perform there is just a new twist. I said it back in March....Chico is a young Basic type and keeping him in the Pen to save his ego is just hurting the team. They have proven Bull Pen help at AAA right now. Again....this is not spring training and I do not like that I am paying MLB prices for spring training effort to win games

Oh and before you demand I name names 231.....Schroder would be my choice....no lefty needed until they get real and get a CFer.

god almighty i was just watchin the yankee game on espn and theyve got this sideline reporter named i think erin andrews. me thinkis i am seriously in love. wow. what is her deal. where did she come from. holy smokes. what a hottie. and she talks so wild. dk is losin it.

goodness gracious great balls of fire!!

All those surprised by this move raise his/her hand? Bueller? Bueller?

I'm not terribly comfortable with the idea of Chico in the pen. He belongs in AA/AAA to get himself straight. He couldn't get people out as a starter how is throwing him into the pen going to help? He needs to face live batters in a starters role just not for the big league team right now.

Frankly, O'Connor shouldn't have been called up until now in the first place. Chris Schroder should have been called up to replace King (reliever for reliever). I don't like the idea of calling up a starter to throw him in the pen. It's a totally different job, different preparation both mentally and physically. Bouncing these guys between roles has got to get confusing for them and throws them off their routine.

Lineups?

I'm really happy to see O'Connor get a start - for pretty selfish reasons. He caught the ball when I threw out the ceremonial first pitch two year ago at RFK. After last year, I never thought I'd see him again.

That being said, it's sad to see Chico struggling so much. He should really get sent down and have a chance to work things out in the minors, while at the same time we get someone who belongs in the bullpen - I guess Schroder would be the best choice.

Which brings me back to a question I had awhile back. Is this normal to be switching back and forth from starting to bullpen like this with pitchers?

Call me crazy but that just seems like doing that, you're messing with EVERYONE'S timing, rhythm, etc.

Is this normal?
_______________
To be a successful reliever you need to have a completely different mindset than that of a starter.

Posted by: e | May 7, 2008 5:39 PM

Two posts ago, J-J. You're slackin' off, my friend. ;)
____________________

Lineups?

Posted by: Juan-John | May 7, 2008 7:52 PM

okay, I basically just said the same thing MKevin did.
Another victim of posting-without-refreshing.

So what's the deal with Belliard? Someone said he phoned it in the other day. I seriously hope his benching isn't getting to his head now. He's one of my favorite players. He made a couple slip-ups earlier but I don't think they warrant this long without play time.

calm down carp, the nationals watching 3 fastballs down the middle for strike 3 isnt that impressive for oswalt, its just shows how timid our hitters are for the most part

Yeah Bob, Zimmerman "took a double away" from Pence when he moved half a step to his right. Man this guy is just a parade of inane comments night after night.

OK so it has to be a sacrilege to complain about how someone on your team, especially the "face of the franchise" hits a homerun, but who else here would have been happier had Zimm's blast been a shot pulled to left instead of an opo to right?

Bob how about you learn your lesson and stop calling double plays before they happen.

RE: Chico to the pen/Irish Mike to the rotation

The two most impressive pitching performances I have seen live were by Pedro Martinez and Johan Santana. Both were were called up initially as relievers and then worked their way to the rotation. Both will be HOF'ers. That was something Tom Kelly, Gene Mauch & Earl Weaver used to do. I thought it always made sense to acclimate a young guy to the big leagues.

But other incredibly successful manager/GM tandems like Cox/Schuerholz threw Glavine/Avery/Smoltz to the wolves and were successful. Scioscia has done it with Lackey/Saunders/Weaver.

Starting pitchers have been successful with lesser stuff than Chico or Irish Mike. Not trying to say either are the second coming of Koufax, but both appear to be capable of sustained success.

I guess my point is you cant really argue whether the decision to move Chico to the pen was successful until they have ultimately failed.

DK, Erin Andrews has a long and well-established following on the internets. Google is your friend.

delayed by a case of serverus interruptus: bang! zim! and an HR is in the books!

Line of the Day:

me thinkis i am seriously in love.

Posted by: dk | May 7, 2008 7:40 PM

Agreed but I guess I'm left wondering what Chico's done to suggest he's going to be successful getting guys out from the pen when he hasn't been able to in a starters role? He's not right. He's not helping the club. He's got options. Send him down to AAA where guys who fit that description are supposed to go to work things out and bring up someone who's shown they deserve a shot.

With as many guys pushing the envelope to the majors in AAA, Chico hasn't done enough this season to show he's deserving of a ML roster spot at the expense of one of these other guys.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I guess my point is you cant really argue whether the decision to move Chico to the pen was successful until they have ultimately failed.

Posted by: Los Doce Ocho | May 7, 2008 8:47 PM

Holy cow...Berkman is on fire! I say we intentionally walk him for the remainder of his at-bats this series, because we sure as heck can't get him out...

LoDuca can't throw out ANYONE!

What was someone saying recently about telling every runner who reached base to steal? Yeah...

I think this has been mentioned previously, but what are the alternatives? Manning, Munoz or Bacsik in AAA? Bittner or VanAllen in AA?

The Nats still need a lefty out of the pen, even its just to work out a matchup and have the other team lose a possible PH.

dear bob and don: stop blaming the pitchers for the stolen bases, paulie has the arm of a 7 year old girl and couldnt throw out yurtle the turtle

HAHAHA love. Good one. My roommate and I both cracked up at that one.

Look what happened as result of LoDuca's lack of an arm: two runners move up (including the #7 hitter who has hit by a pitch) and score on a base hit by the PITCHER! And the mistakes continue this inning...where the hell was Perez who was supposed to be covering first?!?!

those runs are on paul lo duca, could have thrown out pence if he was paying attention and should have called a better pitch 1-2 to an opposing pitcher, he is a terrible hitter, terrible game caller, terrible defensively he is simply worthless in every facet of the game

Wily Mo you need to take the first pitch so Bob has a chance to tell us what could happen if you "get a hold of one."

Um... apparently neither the catcher nor the pitcher is concentrating tonight.

it looks like no one is even trying right now, loduca just let pence walk to third, lopez hit a tough ball to short and was out by a step jogging, if he had really run maybe something gets going...show some respect for yourselves and the game

I love that Perez was too busy swearing at his hitting effort to run to first.

Hey, on the bright side, we finally retired Berkman!

yeah BSG, i let out a bronx chortle

Zimmerman!!!!

Wow--Zimmerman has 2, Votto hit 3, Dunn and Bako each hit one. Quite a day for Bowden draftees.

Maybe they should give Zim more off days.

So is O'Connor only in for 1 inning? Live game action istead of bullpen?

I wonder why Manny took Perez out? He had just come off a 1-2-3 inning and his pitch count wasn't that high. O'Connor is not looking impressive so far...

I think the idea is to make sure O'Connor isn't too cocky going into his start by getting him roughed up a bit tonight.

Uh, forgot to mention that O'Connor said he was available tonight, and in fact he was told he would either appear in the game or throw a side session in the bullpen in the late innings.

really a strange move, perez not looking bad, not really coming up in the order, oconner to start saturday, no lefties coming up....shall i continue?

still a strange move barry

Doesn't any reliever besides Rauch have a put away pitch?

Wow, another mental mistake...

O'Connor looks like a deer caught in headlights.

There's yet another mental mistake--O'Connor forgets that there's no one on first and fails to double up either the runners on 2nd or 3rd. Think by the time you're in the majors you should be able to keep track of where the runners are at?

Is it me or are they all playing like they were before LoDuca went on the DL?

I'm just, you know, sayin'....

Goodnight Mr. O'Connor. Go get yer head on straight before Saturday. UGH!!!

It's not you.

loduca is a clubhouse cancer for our team, just not at all the right fit

Maybe PLD will go out of the game since it looks like Nieves is coming in from the bullpen. YAY!

Wow, talk about timing! Maybe it's back to the DL for Paul...

wow...i wonder if i should use my powers for good

You mean that wasn't good?

Nice night for PLod. Can't throw anyone out, 0-2, injury, and a confrontation with a fan. Somedays it's best not to get out of bed.

1) Lo Duca hurts his hand
2) Fan jeers him (profanely?)
3) Fan gets ejected
4) Nieves hits a homer????? (prediction..)

Classy Paul... not too injured to get into a fight with a fan on your way off the field.

At least LoDuca got SOMEBODY thrown outr. LOL!

I certainly don't wish LoDuca hurt.

But YAY, Nieves!!

I laughed so hard I spit up my drink reading this!

*****************************************************
At least LoDuca got SOMEBODY thrown outr. LOL!

Posted by: leetee1955 | May 7, 2008 9:58 PM

Post of the night, leetee!

perfect leetee. LOL!
______________________

At least LoDuca got SOMEBODY thrown outr. LOL!

Posted by: leetee1955 | May 7, 2008 9:58 PM

unless that fan said something really offensive, thats really not appropriate to kick him out. let the fans have their say, its not his fault lo duca is a little child

Pena hits ANOTHER curve. Wow.

Wow...Tim Tolman stinks

lets to go tim tolman for wireless wednesdays

Imagine if he really got ahold of one...
****************
Pena hits ANOTHER curve. Wow.

Posted by: Steven on Capitol Hill | May 7, 2008 10:00 PM

dk,
catcher again with the magazine and cigarette?

TOLMAN AGAIN!!!! PLEASE CAN WE GET A REAL 3B COACH!!!!! HOW MANY FREAKING TIMES DOES THIS HAVE TO HAPPEN FOR SOMETHING TO CHANGE?!?!?!

Uh, in the words of Bob Carpenter: "Not very close."

Ya think? WHY OH WHY would Tolman (our favorite whipping boy now that PLD is out again) send WMP knowing he is not the fastest guy, and that the ball was not terribly deep in left field? Way to kill a rally. GEEZ.

Let's see...that ball was hit to really shallow left field and Pena is not a fast runner by any means. Why the **** would Tolman send him home? He was out by a mile! The bases could have been loaded for Guz, but nope...

I'm worthless.

Love, can you do something about Tolman while you're at it? Not injured, just on vacation for a while ... maybe til October?

Unbelieveable! How do you send two guys in two consecutive games when every fan in the stadium and everyone watching on TV knows the ball is hit so hard that the third base coach surely wouldn't send the runner. Would he?! Both times our runners were out by a freakin' mile!

somebody, please kick my a**

Seriously?
I mean really?
I've been giving him the benefit of the doubt, but he was out by a good 3 yards!

Can anyone throw strikes?

Do the Nats practice getting guys room-serviced at the plate?

OK folks, now imagine a GM who draft with the equivalent of Tim Tolman's effectiveness as a 3rd base coach.

That's Bowden. Except he's been at it for 14 years, not 2.

Drafting is just less visible.

This game is getting absurd. It's a g*dd*m track meet on the base paths.

Chico warning (the pitcher not the writer).

We might as well not even try to throw out base stealers any more...at least that way, we don't risk throwing the ball into center field

I may be wrong, but it looked like Wily Mo hesitated rounding 3rd.

Oh yea. Word is totally out on stealing bases on the Nationals.

Tolman - "Rally Killer." They should have a random fan be the third base coach every game (maybe with the purchase of a "Build a Bear:). I bet the person would do not worse than what we have now.

What was it Barry told us back in March about Manny's fancy "philosophy" and not giving away outs on the basepaths? Seriously, this has got to be a joke. It was a problem with Tolman last year and it has gotten multiple times worse this season. Barry I hope you will address this in an article before you leave the beat.

So I have been out of pocket in the big apple all day and just skimmed the posts ... Ummm ... Looks like I have missed out on a lot of ... Name calling and griping? C'mon folks, let's focus on baseball, we're all fans here. Or at least, let's focus on griping at what sounds like continued RFing piss poor fundamental play. I'm on the Acela so I will be following this via crackberry for the next half hour. What's the score?

I think I need to post during the games more. This crowd is much more my kind of pitchfork-wielding mob than the "heck of a job JimBo" apologists who rule the roost all day.

3-3 Bottom 7, 1st and 3rd, 2 out.

Yes, yes, I'm a total moron. Was I even paying attention to the game at hand and the players on the field???

Classified Ad: Wanted - third base coach - warm body with 1-2 lobes will suffice.

Can't be any worse than what the Nationals have now.

BobL - Out of the inning... 3-3 heading into the 8th. Guz, Zimm, NJ due up.

We could put Bowden at 3rd. If there's ever a need to argue with the ump, he can just pretend he's talking to his girlfriend.

Wait, that may not be good if he ends up slugging the ump.

Paging the Rally Possum! Paging the Rally Possum!

I'm up. We're good to go.

Okay so it sounds like Tolman messed up. I wish I could be watching.

Did Wily Mo, out by 3 yards, try roughing the catcher up? I mean, you would think he'd have a pretty good chance. Yikes.

p.s. I love me some Hanrahan

Steven, Steven, you have been changing too many diapers in the middle of the night and your lack of sleep has made you engage in the ad hominem attacks that you so loathe. Give Bowden's personal life a rest. Now, join, me brother in a Nats cheer: End the Suckage!

I know Tolman is Manny's boy and all but this has gone far enough. In any superior/subordinate relationship that involves a pre-existing friendship there comes a point when you stop being a person's friend and are forced to be their boss. Not acting in a situation like this can lead to morale issues, loss of respect from your other direct reports, and eventually anarchy. There are no consequences so there are not incentives to perform.

Tolman has to go. At this point it's just that simple.

Great night for Zim, sharp sharp hits, good to see the days off helped...

SoCH: Please don't mistake my frustration with in-game mistakes for sympathies with your particular brand of negativity. The more negative tone on this blog of late has a lot to do with why I have nearly turned into a lurker.

Bob L.: Oh you'd be right with us if you were watching this... was going to say "train wreck" but suspect that's not appropriate given your current mode of transportation. :)

Zimm=silver lining tonight!

I may be wrong, but it looked like Wily Mo hesitated rounding 3rd.
--------------------
Now that's really bad. If your players has lost confidence in you, and are holding up, you need to go back to 3rd base school...

WMP hesitated b/c he didn't expect to be sent. I know runners are supposed to obey the 3B coach and not try to make their own base running decisions, but with Tolman's ineffectiveness is it really surprising to see this type of thing?

If Tolman has lost the respect and confidence of the players it can only get worse from here.

Another silver lining (or 2): despite various boneheaded thinking errors, we're still in it. And the commentary by Charlie and Dave is pretty funny.

I've heard all the Barry is moving to Redskins beat talk, but never saw the "official" word on this. Is there a date this is happening and any word on replacement?

Bowden's PR embarrassments are relevant topics for criticism.

Charlie just announced on the radio that Metro will be doing track work this weekend on the Green Line. Great timing, Metro.

GoNats! Come on Joel, shut em down!

BobL - 3-3 bottom 8, 1 out, 0 on, Hanrahan in for his 2nd inning.

Oh no, JennX, you may want to believe you are maintaining above the fray balance and perspective, but you have completely embraced my ALL CAPS brand of outrage. Welcome to the pitchfork brigade. With any luck, someone with the Nats will realize that we aren't going to wait around forever for this team to get respectable.

kevinx - Barry announced it about a week ago. and introduced Chico Harlan.

Many thanks, MKevin.

Leetee, here's the WaPo link on the story...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/06/AR2008050602094.html

As I'm planning on going Saturday, I believes I'm going to be doing the Nats Express thing...

And it seems Chico Harlan will be taking over sometime next week.

Re: Saturday. There's plenty of parking in the neighborhood just across the Southeast Freeway around Garfield Park. It's a short walk and unzoned on the weekends.

Nice hold, Joel - ELWOOOOD! WAAAAAAKE UUUUUP!

From Today's Chat, for our sleep-starved, nasty-minded Steven on Capitol Hill:

Barry Svrluga: Bowden is several things, but one of them is very, very bright. The guy is a furiously fast thinker, and I think even his detractors in the game -- and he has several -- would grant that he is creative in his thinking.

I would say two things: Look at the list of players the Nationals have let get away over the past few years, since Bowden came into the job. Are there really big mistakes there?

And secondly, I'd be fascinated to find out how Bowden would do with a truly competitive budget. He's never had one, not here, not in Cincinnati. That would help give us a complete picture.

BobL - 3-3 top 9, AK, Nieves, WMP due up.

ndn,

How hard would it be for SOMEONE at Metro to realize that the Nats are home this weekend and postpone the track rehab until the team is on the road?

Well, "plenty" may be overstating it, especially if lots of people decide to do this, but you'll find a spot.

Jose Valverde pitching to Kearns, Bob L. Valverde's 10 2/3rds consecutive scoreless innings. Kearns out to short. Wil up.

Make that 11 2/3 consecutive scoreless iniings for Valverde..

kevinx,
found Barry's very first announcement about leaving (Ballparks and Beat Writers)

http://tinyurl.com/37pxg4

SoCH - I'm not thrilled with Bowden as GM. I don't like the way he manages the roster and I don't see the fit between he and Stan. The Braves and Reds of the 90's were built by differing methods. I don't have issue with his drafts, I have issue with the way he developed players and traded prospects. I really hope the Nats make a play for Cashman in the offseason.

But holding Bowden responsible for the Reds drafts during his tenure isnt fair. As has been said before, the GM has little say in picks outside of the first round or picks that will not require a 40 man spot as part of the contract.

While you could contend whoever made the picks was under Bowden's guidance, you would be wrong. Both owners (especially Schott) picked friends and friends of friends for baseball positions. Firing Davey Johnson for Ray Knight while the Reds were still winning in the early 90's is a prime example.

Not sure if you are familiar with the Schott/Lindner ownership regimes while Bowden was there. Both were incredibly frugal (even by Lerners are Cheap) standards and would not pay Garciaparra/Varitek $'s when they were drafting...one of many reasons the owners were so disliked in the area. Another is Espinosa...a premium example of a high draft pick lost due to "signability".

Yet Bowden was able to manufacture a team successful enough to have Cincinnati build the team a new ballpark.

As to the continual attacks on Bowdens' personal history, well, thats for you to decide. I'd encourage you to look through the history of posts on this site however. I doubt you'll find many posts outside of yours that attack Bowden outside of the lines.

Methinks we are due for a break.

Valverde has a wind-up like Mussina's and he just retired 3 Nats, but WMP made him work for it (I counted 9 pitches, but am not keeping score and could be wrong) before flying-out weakly to right center.

Leetee, fully agreed, though in my glancing at the article, it appeared that there's a track defect that had to be taken care of immediately...

SoCH, thx for the parking tip.

I got home right after the LoJuica fan-argument deal, trying to switch back'n'forth to BT to see if there's a highlight of what happened... ah, maybe right now...

Hanrahan walks powerless Matsui to start the ninth. Cue the spooky organ music. Hanrahan paid no attention and Matsui swipes second. Organ music getting louder...

Unreal. They aren't only running w/o fear they're leading off with impunity. Runners are in scoring position at 1B tonight.

Although it's not all the catchers' fault because our pitchers don't hold runners well. But it's like once the Astros reach first base, they all have EZ Passes to steal.

BobL - Double switch. Harris in LF for WMP hitting 9th. Colome in for Hanrahan batting 8th. Runner on 2nd (Matsui) 1 out.

Winning run on 3rd, Bob L. Groundhog Day.

WP by Calamity puts winning run on third.

Oops... forgot. IBB to Berkman, runners on 1st and 2nd, 1 out.

Wild pitch. Runners on 1st and 3rd. 1-2 count to Lee. 1 out.

Say goodnight, Gracie. 4-3 Stros on Carlos Lee walkoff winner.

A game they deserved to lose. Sloppy, horrifying play. This smacks of gameplay during their losing streaks earlier in the season.

PS... I can't believe I stayed up for this garbage. 4:30 is going to come wayyyyy too soon.

SOCH, you say the same thing over and over. I don't even really disagree with most of what you say, but it's ridiculously boring to hear it so often. And your shameless promotion of your baseball intellect is sad, it's almost like you're waiting for Stan Kasten or Donald Graham to read this blog and say, you know, there's a young midwesterner on Capitol Hill I need to hire.

Today it almost seems like you're having a nervous breakdown, between your campaign for Chris Needham, who I think is a big boy and can take care of himself, and your non-stop hammering of everything that you can think of. Did you ever even acknowledge that Barry finally wrote something about Gallaraga? Didn't that even make you happy for a few moments -- you could even tell yourself that it was a result of your constant harping.

I'm sick...can anyone throw strikes..anyone..I'm just disgusted right now...now, where are my sleeping pills

Allrighty then folks,
See ya'll tomorrow, same Nat time, same Nat channel.
Hopefully not the same Nat result.
Oy.

Cheers

Interesting move... Hannrahn made Lee look pretty bad last time around.

Hanrahan has got to stop walking so many people. What a stab in the heart to lose this one after losing last night.

Thanks for the link to the Barry leaving story - I really don't know how I missed it. Perhaps my reading and comprehension skills aren't what they used to be.

Couple notes...Berkman used the Nats for 8 straight hits which tied an Astros record. I would know lump him in with Cabrera, Hanley and Chipper as Nats bashers.

Also, the 'Stros are top 10 in number of stolen bases this year with Matsui and Bourn at the top of the order & Berkman turning into Rickey Henderson circa 1981. They are the type of team the Nats really haven't faced this year outside of the Mets.

Sure hope the Nats address the issue before teams like the Dodgers and Rockies come to town and really exploit the issue.

The only rationale I can think of for pulling Hanrahan for Calamity is that Calamity is a supposed sinker-ball pitcher (see WP) who, in theory, was a better candidate to induce a double play grounder than flyballer Hanrahan. G'nite all. As Scarlett O'Hara once said (I think) "Tomorrow is another game."

Sweet are the uses of adversity, Which, like the toad, ugly and venomous, Wears yet a precious jewel in his head.
Shakespeare, As You Like It (Duke Senior at II, i)

Ugh. Thanks for keeping me in the loop y'all. I think I will listen to music on the way home though.

Hanrahan does need to stop walking people but his stats ARE skewed by five intentional walks. The leadoff walks in particular seem to be what gets him.

MKevin, I'm not sure there's been that much sloppy play today (except for Milledge's egregious non-effort on the should have been sac-fly that ended the game).

But there are two defining mistakes made by the folks the players depend on:

1.) Tolman AGAIN sending a runner on two outs with the heart of our order due up. I'm not one to call for firing, but a real serious talk needs to be had.

2.) Manny sticking with Hanrahan in the 9th when the kid has a bad track record going three innings and was already looking shaky in the 8th.

It wasn't a bad game by the players, otherwise. We would have liked more hits and less walks, but Oswalt was tough and the pitchers got themselves out of trouble pretty darn well. Without those two game management mistakes this could easily be a hard-fought win.

And, hey, Zimm 3 for 4 with 2 homers is okay.

And Lastings caught all fly balls hit to him.

Charlie & Dave reported that Carlos Lee had been 0-6 against Jesus, which helps explain the move.

Sigh.

I still love you, Nats.

Anyone else see the sideline reporter babe from Fox Sports Houston grab Carlos Lee after he hit the winner? She sure looked friendly with Carlos.

Wow, I assumed she was his wife. Yeah, real friendly.

To soothe frustrated nerves, here's a little clip that I enjoyed this evening:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWtAqy6zJd4

Thats a great clip...is that Belliard at the condiment island with the narrator?

I'm sure Bowden is a smart, creative guy. I don't challenge that. But the question is whether he's been a successful GM, and Barry's recycling some old excuses for Bowden.

Let's look at the payroll thing--and first I'll set aside the fact that lots of teams have proven that you can win with a low payroll--White Sox, A's, Twins, etc.

Regardless it's simply not accurate to say that "He's never had a competitive payroll, not here, not in Cincinnati." In fact, in his one playoff year in 1995, he had the 3rd highest payroll in MLB. This is a canard that keeps getting repeated (that Barry should know better), and I'll keep correcting it.

Here's how the payroll in Cincinnati ranked each year for his time in there (and the Reds record in parens):
93: 6th out of 28 (73-89)
94: 5th out of 28 (66-48--strike year)
95: 3rd out of 28 (85-59--lost in NLCS)
96: 6th/28 (81-81)
97: 16th/28 (76-86)
98: 26th/30 (77-85)
99: 20th/30 (96-67)
00: 23rd/30 (85-77)
01: 22nd/30 (66-96)
02: 23/30 (78-84)
03: 17/30 (69-93)

So that's 4 years in the top of the top payrolls, 2-3 years in the middle of the pack, and just 4 years in the bottom third. Just one year really at the very, very bottom (1998). Again, the oft-repeated canard that Bowden had a shoestring payroll in Cincy is flat-out wrong.

Now, Barry uses the word "competitive" to describe the kind of payroll JimBo never had. Well let's examine the assumption that it's not possible to compete with the payrolls JimBo had.

After Bowden's first 4 years, when the Reds fell to the middle or bottom third of the league by payroll, at least one team with a lower payroll than the Reds made the playoffs in 5 of 7 of those years:
97: Houston
98: none
99: none
00: Oakland
01: Oakland again
02: Oakland and Minnesota
03: Oak, Min, and Florida

So to conclude that you couldn't compete with the Reds' salaries was disproven by these teams, who won not by outspending JimBo but by drafting and developing better players.

Check it yourself--it's all here, though you have to download a spreadsheet: http://roadsidephotos.sabr.org/baseball/data.htm

sorry for my absence, i was out toasting to hand injuries (usually wouldnt be gleeful but he is old, worthless and its his hand, he will live and be compensated well no matter how long he is out). i think we get a big win tomorrow 7-1. lets go baby

Poll Question?? Which poster has repeated the same opinion the most times.

A. Steve who wants Bowden Fired
B. Lerners are Cheap
C. Coverage is Lacking

I don't like PLD too much either. But you Nieves fans crack me up. Let's remember he is a career minor leaguer for a reason. It sounds like some of you are ready to start the MVP chant when he comes to the plate at Nat Park.

i am an nieves fan because he handles pitchers well and has a cannon of an arm...and if he sticks around and helps the pitchers develop the way i think they can, maybe he is an mvp. so what if he hits .200, about the same as loduca with a better attitude and better defensive and mental tools. plus i like these guys, nieves and mike bascik types, gotta respect them and love they are getting a chance that i think they deserve for the simple fact that they appreciate the chance more than someone like milledge or even zim ever will. maybe i have too much of a man crush on crash davis, but i really enjoy watchin these guys get their chance

Steven,

I understand that the Capitol Hill address makes you pretentious and in love with hearing yourself type, but I have an offer for you. If I buy the tickets (train and game) could I convince you to transfer you brand of knowledge to being an O's fan?

SoCH-

I do not believe anyone has offered a post stating Bowden is the GM of the future. I don't recall anyone proving his merit relative to record/payroll or his ability to manipulate a low payroll into a contender. Some of his free agent signings as the Reds GM are sour (Greg Vaughn, Juan Guzman, etc.).

Singling out his issues implies other GM's are flawless, however. Sabean is considered a great GM and the Giants had been a consistent playoff contender. Zito, Durham and Vizquel dont look so good right now. Bet he'd like to have that Santana deal back too. Towers just signed an extension and is the longest tenured GM I believe...yet while he can turn a solid bullpen out of the scrap heap he cant put together an OF. Cashman has the Giambi, Pavano and Wright deals under his tenure.

Most that read this blog realize Bowden is what he is...someone able to turn the occasional bust into a player/asset...someone biased towards one time Reds prospects or five tool players...someone looking to always get the upperhand in a trade.

But your continual issues have been his personal history and his draft record. I don't think you understand the reality of Cincinnati's ownership while Bowden was there.

Bowden's draft record IS directly related to how much the owners will spend on the draft and whom the owner's subordinates chose to pick. This is NOT directly related to the team's overall payroll. Espinosa was picked because he would take less money. Sowers wanted more than the owner's were willing to pay and didnt sign. When the Reds had the 3rd overall pick in 02, they chose an easier sign in Chris Gruler (pretty sure he signed for less than the guys picked after him too) even though it was considered a pretty stocked draft. I'm not sure if you followed the drafts of the late 90's/early 00's but the signing bonuses of the period are the reason there is currently a slot recommendation.

I'd suggest maybe doing a little more digging into Bowden while he was a GM of the Reds...check for Hal McCoy articles from the Dayton Daily News. I'm pretty sure he will be more at issue with the owners than Bowden related to the teams performance.

wow spanish name thats a long post

Boy, am I glad I gave up watching the game and went out tonight, even though it's a weeknight. Let's try to salvage tomorrow's game. Hopefully we won't make any of the same stupid mistakes we've made in the first two games. It would be a lot easier if Tim Tolman mysteriously didn't show up at the park tomorrow though. How many rallies has he been single-handeldy responsible for killing now?

As for LoDuca, MLB.com is reporting that he's feeling "probably the most pain I've ever felt." My guess is that he goes on the DL and we see Dukes come in. I guess that solves the question of the roster move associated with Dukes' return.

Team needs to start making roster and coaching decisions that reflect a desire to put a MLB level product on the field.

Team must fire Tolman. Sorry Manny but it is time to be a MLB Manager and o what is right.

Team must bring up Schroder and another proven bull pen arm.

Team must look for a CFer of the future and put Langerhans in CF in the short run until Dukes can be given a shot in CF. Again sorry Manny but you can not put your head in the sand and lead.

Team must start benching players who do not run and players who do not have their heads in the game. Sorry again Manny but this is not single A player development. Your approach has not worked. Same people are making you look bad night after night.

Common thread here......Time for Acta to turn the corner as a manager and a leader of men.

Holy Smokes! Odalis Perez pitched SICK last night? He vomited after the first and STILL pitched 5 innings of pretty good ball??
I mean seriously?

I'm now Odalis's mom.

I marked a gem on my scorecard for Charlie's riff on Rex Jones 'stache. :)

---

And the commentary by Charlie and Dave is pretty funny.

Yeah, as he was describing the free buses from the station I told 1c that, as with our team's recent baserunning adventures, should you actually reach the station, you would be stranded there.

---

Charlie just announced on the radio that Metro will be doing track work this weekend on the Green Line. Great timing, Metro.

ISO Request:

I am in search of top quality 100% cotton polo shirts, in Red, White, Blue, or Black with the Curly W logo over the left breast. I've been to the Nat's web site and all they sell is the polo with that pedestrian "Nationals" over the baseball logo. You can't love that logo like you can the Curly Dub. Has anyone seen this product?

Oh no, JennX, you may want to believe you are maintaining above the fray balance and perspective, but you have completely embraced my ALL CAPS brand of outrage. Welcome to the pitchfork brigade.

============================================

Sorry, folks, I shouldn't have sent SOCH on that one because clearly it wasn't even close.

heh, heh. An oddly worded link on the Nats homepage:
"Lo Duca injures right hand for Nats"

Thanks Lo Duca. We all appreciate the favor.

6th & D, I saw some Curly W polos at Penney's in Springfield recently, but they weren't cotton...they were that kinda shiny, UnderArmor-wannabe material. They did look nice, but they're made by that "Antigua" company and their stuff just seems cheap to me.

I also just checked the Nats site again and found one cotton polo with the Curly W. If you click "Shop", then "Men's", then "Polo shirts", and go to the second page of choices, it's the very last one. Don't know if this link'll work, but here's a try:
http://shop.mlb.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2821490&cp=1895815.1902047.1895789

It's pretty nice...I might actually order one for myself. Hope that helps.

Oh, and I couldn't get on here last night cuz my wife was using our computer to do actual work (she's got some nerve, huh?), but regarding Tolman, I want to pile on. I screamed about him Tuesday night and I'll say it again...this is not just two games we're talking about, but a consistent pattern of blunders at third base. If all he needs is Lasik, fine, somebody take him to Dr. Bhutros, but if his eyes are fine, then put him out to pasture! And, I was flipping around at one point so I'm not sure I heard correctly, but was Carpenter saying that Tim Tolman would make a fine manager some day?! Please tell me I heard that wrong...

Bonne journee, mes amis!

NB the Nats probably weren't announcing Pérez was sick to the world (and the Astros), but it would explain a few things.
He wasn't getting to first on D or AB because he was trying to keep his gatorade down. But somehow, he seems to have gotten the benefit of the doubt in here. Good on y'all.

------
I love that Perez was too busy swearing at his hitting effort to run to first.
Posted by: JennX | May 7, 2008 9:25 PM
-----------
wonder why Manny took Perez out? He had just come off a 1-2-3 inning and his pitch count wasn't that high. O'Connor is not looking impressive so far...
Posted by: BSG | May 7, 2008 9:41 PM
--------------
Uh, forgot to mention that O'Connor said he was available tonight, and in fact he was told he would either appear in the game or throw a side session in the bullpen in the late innings.
Posted by: Barry Svrluga | May 7, 2008 9:43 PM
----------
still a strange move barry
Posted by: love | May 7, 2008 9:45 PM
-----------
Holy Smokes! Odalis Perez pitched SICK last night? He vomited after the first and STILL pitched 5 innings of pretty good ball??
I mean seriously?
I'm now Odalis's mom.
Posted by: NatsNut | May 8, 2008 7:15 AM

Hmm... So the "heck of a job, JimBo" posse continues to shoot the poor messenger.

Anyone care to respond on the merits to the data I present, or do y'all prefer to keep talking about me? I don't blame you from wanting to change the subject from this sorry team, but this isn't "let's talk about Steven Journal."

The facts show clearly that JimBo had plenty of payroll in Cincy. Not the most, not the least, but certainly competitive, and for a good period of time quite a lot. Barry's chat, quoted by Flynnie to rebut me, is just not accurate on this point.

Senor Doce Ocho points out accurately the role that signability plays in the draft. No doubt this is true. But again I don't care how little money you have, I don't think this accounts for the extended failure of his tenure there. 2 all-stars, no HOFs, no SPs better than Brett Tomko and 5-6 starting-caliber position players (generously defined) is not a minimally acceptable haul for a decade of drafting.

The reason I focus on his drafting record is because this is the main strategy Kasten has articulated for building this team. It's not that Bowden can't do ANYTHING right, he's just never proven himself able to do THIS right.

Otherwise, I don't focus that much on his PR embarrassments (I don't care about personal issues, if they are personal; I care about PR problems that hurt our team). They are 5th on the list, after 1. one playoff team in 14 years as a GM, 2. the poor drafting, esp. when it comes to pitchers, 3. not on the same page with Kasten and Acta on the winning now thing, 4. organizational cohesiveness to have the new president hire his own guy, then have the GM hire a manager and we did it all backwards, 5. the PR embarrassments (which in fact were the reason he got fired in Cincy).

Marge Schott was not a good owner. Her PR blunders hurt her team. Her decision in the mid-90s to cut payroll hurt. You can say lots of other bad things. But really this only explains so much. Did she trade Paul O'Neill? Bowden made over 600 draft picks in his time there. Did she force him to screw up all of them? And still if we're going to give JimBo a free pass for everything that happened in Cincy, someone needs to explain how 2 GMs managed to be successful in Cincy under Schott before Bowden came, and how one even won a World Series.

I don't know how to respond to this argument that GMs aren't involved in drafting. I've been ignoring it because, well, I can't imagine anyone really believes that GMs aren't involved in the draft.

Finally, no need to take a poll. There's no question I'm the most repetitive poster. Lerners are cheep and Carpy Stinks have NOTHING on me!

blah blah blah blah

Just wondering, if my posts are so annoying, why don't you just not read them? It's not like I'm sitting in the row behind you shouting in your ear.

And certainly you must realize that responding to me only encourages me by providing evidence that in fact someone is reading what I'm writing.

Like I said, just wondering.

Steven -- how many successful seasons have the Reds had AFTER Bowden left?

That doesn't prove that Bowden wasn't an awful GM, it only proves that Cincy has continued to hire idiots after he left.

e--So what, you're blaming Marge Schott even after she's dead?

No actually you're right, they've remained bad, but that only backs up my point about Bowden's record. He not only did nothing while he was there, he left the cupboard bare. That team is still basically Bowden's team--Dunn, Griff, etc.

However it does look like things are turning around there (hiring Dusty Baker notwithstanding). They have more top 100 prospects than just about anyone except the Rays--Cueto, Homer, Votto, Jay Bruce, Volquez, Drew Stubbs... Other than Votto, they all were acquired after JimBo was fired for the 9/11 remark.

No no--they haven't hired idiots at all. They hired Krivsky, whose performance was demonstrably better than Bowden's (though I will continue to insist that you can't judge a draft till 3-4 years after at least), and he'd be an upgrade for us now. They now have Walt Jocketty, who SURELY would have been an upgrade for us.

Total non-sequitor--the Post misspelled "Backe" for the 3rd day in a row today. I hope Barry gets it right in the gamer.

"Anyone care to respond on the merits to the data I present, or do y'all prefer to keep talking about me? I don't blame you from wanting to change the subject from this sorry team, but this isn't "let's talk about Steven Journal." "

The only thing more pathetic than another seven paragraph posting from Steven of Clueless Hill citing Jim Bowden's deficiencies as a GM would be a long-winded response to same from some other poster. Steven, face facts. All these Bowden deficiencies you persist in throwing out on any blog you can find were well known to the Nats ownership before they hired Bowden. They hired him anyway. They're not going to fire him now, much as you would like them to. You may be right, you may be wrong, but either way it doesn't matter because your endless repetition of the same laundry list over and over again will have absolutely no effect at all on whether or not Bowden keeps his job. The sooner you figure that out, the better. Because I fear what may happen next - you'll be getting your laundry list tattooed on your chest and parading around Nationals Park shirtless once the weather warms up. And no one wants to see that. Not only will it not get Jim Bowden fired, it will hurt attendance.

don't worry steven, i'm not reading your posts - not because i find them annoying - but because i find them true. and there is nothing that any of us can do about it. so i refrain from wasting my brain on things i cannot control.

SoCH,
You sure are making a lot of friends in here.
I find it funny that you don't like the personal attacks in a discussion but, yet you are constantly "killing" Bowden with personal attacks.
We've all made mistakes in our personal life, yes even you SoCH. So, why not ease up a little on the GM of OUR baseball team, I don't think he is going anywhere anytime soon. Your constant calling for his head on a platter is not going to sway Kasten or the Lerners to fire him.
You're very good with the research on all things baseball, stats, records, etc. But I wonder, and please don't take this personally, if you have ever really competed in any kind of sport, let alone baseball. I myself, played a lot of baseball and football growing up and as a young adult, and now have been coaching youth football for over a decade. I tend to give those involved in professional sports the benefit of the doubt, so to speak, because it's a tough job. Granted, they get paid well but, they have to put up with a lot of crap. Most people I know who have competed understand that and don't take it to the level you do.
If am wrong about your sports background then, I stand corrected and apologize.
You have a right to your opinions but, I think most of us know where you stand now. "We got it."

ABM--I never said I wasn't a pathetic geek, but your point I guess is that we should just not talk about baseball? We shouldn't comment on blogs? You have a blog, right? I guess you prefer people not comment? Or you think its more fun to talk about me than the Nationals? I don't get it.

I actually think Bowden has "scapegoat" written all over him. The talk of his relationship the Mark Lerner notwithstanding, whom do you think they'll fire first? Manny? Kasten? Or you think they're just going to rack up 70 win seasons indefinitely? Or you think Bowden is suddenly going to become a better GM?

"And, I was flipping around at one point so I'm not sure I heard correctly, but was Carpenter saying that Tim Tolman would make a fine manager some day?! Please tell me I heard that wrong..."

Perhaps Carpenter has noticed the fine job Tolman has done in carrying out the lineup card to the umps before the games, a task normally reserved to the manager but one Manny has delegated to him. Not once has Tolman carried out the next day's lineup instead of the current day's. That's definitely not AAAA managerial performance there!

Actually, Carpenter and Tolman have a lot in common. Carpenter calls home runs and double plays before the play is complete, Tolman has every runner safe at home before he even reaches third. They're twin sons of different mothers.

505/203--I don't think it's the same to complain about name-calling on a blog (which I think is silly) and me pointing out that yes in fact Bowden has a history of PR embarrassments. In fact, it's what got him fired in Cincy. His job is political, and the PR side matters. Its maybe not fair, but it's true--another comment comparing the players union to al Qaeda would probably get him fired while another losing year may not.

And I don't think it's particularly relevant or interesting, but since y'all really do seem more interested in talking about me than baseball, I'll share... I played HS football, 2 years varsity, center. We made the playoffs once in those 2 years, the same number of times JimBo's made it in 14.

lol...that was a good one An Briosca Mor...Steven on Clueless Hill. You nailed that one. Also, I think Rizzo now has more influence on the draft these days.

"ABM--I never said I wasn't a pathetic geek, but your point I guess is that we should just not talk about baseball? We shouldn't comment on blogs? You have a blog, right? I guess you prefer people not comment? Or you think its more fun to talk about me than the Nationals? I don't get it. "

I have no problem with comments, from you or anyone else. It's just the endless, mind-numbing repetition of the same tired argument over and over and over again that's annoying. And before you jump on me for calling your argument "tired", let me emphasize that it wasn't tired the first time you posted it. Or maybe even the second time. But it's sure tired now. Having to scroll through it over and over again, day after day, on blog after blog, is even more painful than watching Jesus Colome pace around on the mound for two minutes before he finally throws yet another 96 mph ball.

Wow .. here's a story from another newspaper about a foul ball hit by Zimmerman (one N):

http://tinyurl.com/5lwfzd

You're bored! I'm bored! Unfortunately the madness can't stop until Bowden is gone.

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/nationals_book_it_after_foul_ball

I misjudged your athletic background, my apologies then. I'm very puzzled though why you are so overly critcal.

It takes a lot of time and energy to be filled with such hate and to be so critical. God Speed with that.

And geez give me a little credit for taking the time to look up the payroll of the Reds while Bowden was there. I learned a lot from putting that post together! It's not like I'm not making an effort to respond to the arguments presented on the merits. Surely you won't believe me, but if anyone presented a rational, compelling argument that reflects reality AND GAVE ME SOME HOPE I'd be really glad to hear it and move on.

I'm not filled with hate. I just don't see any hope for the Nationals to become competitive while Bowden is here. I just wanna have fun, that's all.

Nominee for Most Important Sentence in Barry's Gamer (Tim Tolman Division): "Houston center fielder Michael Bourn came up with the ball before Peña's foot touched third base."

Understandable, I guess, since Wily Mo is like, Carl Lewis circa 1984 fast and all.

Enough.

"Anyone care to respond on the merits to the data I present,"

Don't mind if I do - you know, I'm just an unfrozen caveman baseball fan, but amongst fancy words like "canard", I think you completely undermine your own point with that post about salaries.

From your numbers:

Bowden's record with a team in the top third of salaries: 305-277

Bowden's record with a team in the middle third of salaries: 241-246

Bowden's record with a team in the bottom third of salaries: 296-342

So, the way I read that, when he had a budget to work with his team was actually pretty successful and his success pretty much declined as the salary did. Again, I can't hope to be as smart as you, so I'm sure you'll be able to tell me now how salaries don't really matter and how the non-sequitor (did I use that word right?) that Billy Beane has been able to pull a rabbit out of his hat (and become universally recognized as maybe the best GM in the game) invalidates Bowden's mixed-bag record and thus demands that a good GM would have gone 162-0 every year. But, gee, I dunno - seems like, just maybe, when Bowden had a competitive salary structure to work with, he was actually, you know, able to field a mostly competitive team. Could others have done better? Almost definitely, but the idea that he was an abject failure despite having sufficient salary seems like a ...what was what word you used? Oh, right, canard.

In the meantime (and I can't believe I'm about to say this), I'm with ABM - enough about Bowden's merits (or lack thereof). The guy's solidly mediocre...not the worst GM ever, not the best. The topic is tired

Re: the Metro track work. This is a major project which will span four weekends, so they had little choice. There will be homestands on the first and last weekend of the project. Apparently it's a major switch that will be replaced at Mt. Vernon Square (the same one that caused that derailment last year). Metro is promising shuttle trains between L'Enfant Plaza and Navy Yard, so that section of the Green Line shouldn't be affected as badly - it's north of L'Enfant where the single tracking starts. Red Line riders should consider the N22 bus from Union Station, and Orange/Blue line riders should consider using the Capitol South station, both of which would avoid the Green Line altogether. Still, even with all the accommodations Metro is promising, give yourselves PLENTY of extra time this weekend...

"Billy Beane has been able to pull a rabbit out of his hat (and become universally recognized as maybe the best GM in the game)"

Billy Beane had some help from guys who started taking PEDs.

Zimmer-maaaaannnn!

To be honest, I started doing that a while ago.

-----

Just wondering, if my posts are so annoying, why don't you just not read them? It's not like I'm sitting in the row behind you shouting in your ear.

i skim them, just in case there's anything new, but i don't really read much of them any more.

New post cut and pasted up.

Welcome back JennX! I was wondering what happened to you. Don't let the postings of some of our newer posters get you down.

As to the game last night, I expressed moementay displeasure at the outcome of the game and my opinion of our NATS in rather profane terms to the TV and my wife suggested that I give up my plan and be happy. My response was--"Why would I want to that?" This team will go on another streak soon (It is 2 above .500 at the park) and all of the present and future moves will play out during the summer. My overall point being that the self described "Pitchfork Brigade" mentality of some lends itself to the pursuit of my other interest Hockey than Baseball.

Ryan--you're definitely right. Bowden did better with the bigger payroll than he did with the lower payroll. But, alas, I'm not really encouraged. As you summarize, he was just barely above .500 overall with a top 6 payroll, and only made the playoffs once (twice if you count the strike year when he was in line for the playoffs when the season ended). That's just not really that good.

But even if we go with your most generous summation, that Bowden's not the best, not the worst, just in the middle (which is overly generous I think, but fine)--my hope isn't to root for a solidly middle team, it's to root for a GOOD team. I don't think this crowd should settle for less.

To be honest, I started doing that a while ago.

Thanks for sharing the Onion piece - very funny! (and the attendance was good, too ;))

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