From the chat:

"Barry Svrluga: I never thought I would type the following words, but here goes: Right now, Cristian Guzman might be the Nationals' most tradable commodity. . . . keep an eye out for teams that want to win the division but have a shaky situation at shortstop."

From ESPN:

"The Cincinnati Reds called up rookie infielder Paul Janish to replace injured shortstop Jeff Keppinger. Keppinger was put on the 15-day disabled list after suffering a broken left kneecap when he fouled off a ball in Tuesday night's game against the Florida Marlins. . . . He took over as the starting shortstop when Alex Gonzalez opened the season on the disabled list with a broken left knee."

Me:

Uh-oh. Trader Jim's favorite partner needs a shortstop. Bye-bye, Guzie.

Please keep cutting and pasting these. They are worth it for the ridiculously corny headlines.

I got newposted:

506, I look forward to it.

LDO, that's different than saying that wallowing in mediocrity is a necessary evil. How about signing Livo and Lohse so our starters might pitch more innings and Ayala and Rivera don't have to lead MLB in appearances? (Cordero would be there too if his overuse hadn't already led to his dead arm.) Ayala has probably already told Dr. Andrews to block out some time for him come June. And what would be wrong about bringing in those pitchers to make the team more competitive now, even if they would be gone by the time the team might be a real contender?

As to the Milledge/Church discussion, I'm not getting into that debate, though I do think it is an interesting one. I will however add one piece of info in case any of you missed it last night on Baseball Tonight: Gammons did a piece on Milledge, and reported that in the offseason both the O's and the Twins had zero interest in Milledge when Minaya tried to shop him. Not that Milledge wasn't enough for a Bedard or Santana package, but that those teams just weren't interested in him, period. Makes Bowden's decision-making on this a bit more interesting, no?

Posted by: Lerners ARE Cheap | May 14, 2008 3:54 PM

...intentionally, ridiculously corny, I believe.

It's well-known that I appreciate intentional corniness in the extreme, I think.

Ditto here. My favorite was "Brownlie Sundae."

Props to Bill "freshen your drink" Gluvna.

I also like the corny headlines. The weekly animal control roundup in the print edition used to have similarly amusing headlines but now they are plain vanilla. Bo-ring.

Hey there must be a mistake about that guy Brownlie. It says he was drafted by the Cubs in the first round in 2002. Gluvna must have meant to write "twenty-first" or "thirty-first" round, right? Or maybe his draft year and age are wrong? Because obviously if he was actually picked in the first round all the way back in 2002 he'd be an all-star by now, and not still toiling in the minors. Right?

No problem, LAC, I think it's a good thing to look at, I just want to make sure I do it right, which will involve some digging.

Good point, LAC. Another 2002 first-round draft washout, just like B.J. Upton, Prince Fielder, Jeff Francis, Jeremy Hermida, Khalil Greene, Cole Hamels, Jeremy Guthrie, and Jeff Francoeur.

LAC, I haven't seen anybody post that every single draft choice will be a success. There are plenty of early round choices that flame out and plenty of late round choices that succeed. But I'd rather base the team's future on Detwiler and Smoker than Lohse and Livan. How about you?

LAC,

Thanks for the Milledge info from Peter Gammons on Twins and O's lack of ANY interest in Lastings. New O's GM seems to be on the right track to me and we all should know how skilled the Twins have been over the years......just another strike against Bowden and his I'll show you I am smarter everyone approach.

In Chico & Barry's chat, someone asked about Ryan Zimmerman's development and whether he ahs progressed since 2006. I came across this on CBS's fanatasy baseball site. The writer is an optimist, but it is hard to look at the 2008 stats and not wonder about the basis for the optimism. I guess it is faith in reversion to the mean.
http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/fantasy/story/10825020

JayB, the Twins and O's were looking trade #1 starters not a light-hitting catcher and a tempermental 30 year old outfielder who had yet to prove he could play an entire season.

Yeah, JayB, I wouldn't worry about the Twins not being interested. The O's is a different matter. But then, they have Markakis.

LAC, I haven't seen anybody post that every single draft choice will be a success. There are plenty of early round choices that flame out and plenty of late round choices that succeed. But I'd rather base the team's future on Detwiler and Smoker than Lohse and Livan. How about you?

Posted by: NoVA Nat | May 14, 2008 4:22 PM

WHY IS IT ONE OR THE OTHER? Are you telling me that LIVO and LOHSE would somehow block Detwiler and Smoker in the next year or two? This is the problem with all you Plan Lovers......Plan is fine and correct but it does not need to be implemented like this.....we can spend now on 1-3 year FA and still build the Farm.

C'mon 506, you missed some more all-stars. Guys like: Brian Bullington (#1 overall pick), Chris Gruler (#3 for Reds Bowden pick), Clint Everts, Scott Moore, Drew Meyer, Russ Adams, Royce Ring, John McCurdy, Sergio Santos, Derick Grigsby, and Ben Fritz.

Again, let's just remember that everyone else is trying to do exactly what the Nats are. It is hard to do. So what's Plan B if it doesn't work out?

I never said one way or the other, the point LAC was making is that we can't rely on draft picks. I disagreed with that point. I would have liked to see them sign Livan because he's proven he can chew up innings. But buying up every over-priced injured pitcher is not a 1-3 year solution. That's what we did with catchers and everybody agrees that was flawed.

In the end, the Twins wound up with - among others - a different Mets CF prospect, Carlos Gomez.

Maybe worth keeping in mind over the next few years as the two develop.

No Interest.....means none...does this somehow surprise you based on what we are seeing from Milledge. Twins know what they are doing.....look at the roster and look at the records going way back....oh and guess where Livo is......Face facts folks....Nats are a joke at the MLB level and it did not have to be that way....Jimbo is responsible for putting the roster together....look at Florida.....it can be done with little money if that is what they give you. Better way I think is a new GM with a two prong approach, build the farm and spend $80-100 Million on MLB roster and focus on 1-3 year contracts for FA.

JayB:

Livo and Lohse would not block Smoker and Detwiler. They would block Lannan, Hill, or Bergmann or replace Redding or Perez.

So far, Redding and Perez are outperforming Lohse and Livo and presumably will for the foreseeable future, and Lannan, Hill, and Bergmann are all more than capable of winning as much or more than Livo or Lohse, in addition to potentially playing an instrumental role in the future of the club.

Livo and Lohse are not a net gain, either now or in the future.

Drink.

-----

So what's Plan B if it doesn't work out?

Amen, brother.

The Lerner's are making a TON of money this year. Remember those rankings a month or so back that lited the Nats as (if I remember correctly) one of the top 10 most profitable franchises in MLB? New Stadium + Revenue Sharing + Bottom of the barrel payroll = Billionaires getting richer while the fans watch a wretched product on the field and have to listen to how the almighty "Plan" is working and we should see results in a few years.

*****************************************
WHY IS IT ONE OR THE OTHER? Are you telling me that LIVO and LOHSE would somehow block Detwiler and Smoker in the next year or two? This is the problem with all you Plan Lovers......Plan is fine and correct but it does not need to be implemented like this.....we can spend now on 1-3 year FA and still build the Farm.

Posted by: JayB

Milledge is 23 and has played less than 40 games as a Nat. Austin Kearns has had two and a half years to prove himself and hasn't done jack. He is the one that is stinking it up.

Do you guys realize you are already snubbing a trade for a 22 year old outfield prospect? You guys constantly support Zimmerman's progress, but do you realize Lastings is younger than he is? Take it from someone who has played against both, well with Zimmerman and against Milledge. Milledge will be a better player than Zimmerman. Church put up similar numbers while with the Nats, but for people who know baseball, what makes a good line up is a team who hits top to bottom like the Mets. Stick any guy on our team in that lineup, and they see twice as many pitches to hit. When your line up is as mediocre from top to bottom as the Nats, everyone feeds off that. Hitting is contagious, for the sole reason it has to protect itself. Please atleast act like you know the game of baseball please before posting...I figure you guys making the comments are the ones in the stands with the headphones and scorebooks.

No, that is not what I said. What I have said consistently is that we cannot rely *solely* on draft picks and then decide, at some magical future time, "oh, now we're ready to win, let's sign some real FAs as the 'final pieces.'" Taking that approach is a path to perpetual failure if you don't strike gold collectively with your draft picks--which is the way it pans out for most teams. Instead, both approaches should be going on at the same time.

As to your earlier question, I would prefer to have Lohse and Livan now (or fill in some other names of decent established starters), and have Detwiler and Smoker in 3-4 years. There's no reason something like that couldn't have happened. I'm sure that the arms and shoulders of Cordero, Ayala, Rivera and Rauch would have preferred that kind of arrangement as well.
_______________________
I never said one way or the other, the point LAC was making is that we can't rely on draft picks. I disagreed with that point. I would have liked to see them sign Livan because he's proven he can chew up innings. But buying up every over-priced injured pitcher is not a 1-3 year solution. That's what we did with catchers and everybody agrees that was flawed.

Posted by: NoVA Nat | May 14, 2008 4:38 PM

I see you conveniently left O'Connor and Chico off your list. Some might argue that blocking Bergmann (depending on which version of Bergy we're talking about), Chico, or O'Connor would be a GOOD thing.

*****************************************
Livo and Lohse would not block Smoker and Detwiler. They would block Lannan, Hill, or Bergmann or replace Redding or Perez.

Posted by: faNATic

Bergmen.....come on.....Yup Perez is doing fine, Hill was out for most of April as you may recall....Lannan replaced Chico....all this churn as killed the bull pen, the only strength of the team....Livo or Lohse or both would have saved those arms and give some stability and leadership to a team that is completely lost......You all are just grasping at straws on this Plan has to be extreme and losing is required logic.

Agreed that it's hard to do LAC, but as pointed out above, the more you get (like the Nats last year) the better your chances.

JayB, you're also right that it wouldn't have been a catastrophe to sign Livo or Lohse, though I'm liking Odalis Perez just fine. One person in that role is great. Two is probably not making any forward movement. Three is completely in the wrong direction.

While the bullpen has gone from strength to question mark, we probably do not acknowledge just how difficult it is to assemble a good bullpen and keep it good. Even teams with a ton of resources and generally well regarded GMs have trouble. Atlanta of course is the classic example for long term problems, but as bad we think the Nats bullpen has become, we ought to look up the coast a bit to EE#4 (formerly #2). Last year they were #2 in the majors in terms of bullpen ERA (3.10), now their ERA is 25th at 4.34. In '06, 21st at 4.51.

That having been said, most of the burnout predictions in the bullpen have been for Rauch, who seems the least affected so far.

Barry referred to the bullpen's workload being among the highest in the NL. Their 135.2 (according to ESPN's stats) is about 6.2 innings above the NL average of 129 (which is about where the mean is). Over a full season, that amounts to more than 25 innings extra use, which is significant.

When you consider that their starters are 8th in innings pitched (222), one inning less than mean (223), I'll still contend that the problem is not "the starters don't go deep enough," notwithstanding their pitches per inning. I think the problem has been the distribution and concentration of those innings. But I'm beginning to sound like a broken record on that point.

JayB, please speak (write) fluent English sentences henceforth.

The reason Florida has been able to put this team together for such a small payroll is because they had a lot of proven talent to trade for MLB-ready prospects with entry-level (read: cheap) contracts.

When Bowden inherited this team, he did not have a Becket, Cabrera, Castillo, Delgado, Lo Duca, Pierre, or Willis to trade to acquire young talent.

Yes, Uggla (rule five draftee from Arizona) and Willingham (drafted by Florida) are exceptions, but it's not as if the Nationals haven't utilized the tools (Flores and Zimmerman, respectively).

-----

Jimbo is responsible for putting the roster together....look at Florida.....it can be done with little money if that is what they give you

Ballston,

I'm afraid you're wrong to assume that most of these posters are in the stands with headphones on and scorebooks in hand. Most of them are 300+ pound, social misfits and degenerate whiners who generally don't leave their parents' basements. Most fans check into this page from time to time, but have jobs and lives and don't feel the need to involve themselves in the borderline anti-Semetic ravings of some of these posters.

See, that's the difference between some of us. I don't see how Livo or Lohse has ANYTHING to do with Perez. Why is 2 not making any forward movement? Why is three completely in the wrong direction. Does 2 or 3 mean we couldn't have given McGeary that bonus? Does it mean that we wouldn't have signed all the rest of our draft picks? No, and that's the sort of thing that matters for the FUTURE. Our hypothetical opening day rotation would have been Perez, Redding, Livo, Lohse, with Hill waiting to come off the DL. NOTHING AT ALL wrong with that, for right now OR the future.

*************************************
it wouldn't have been a catastrophe to sign Livo or Lohse, though I'm liking Odalis Perez just fine. One person in that role is great. Two is probably not making any forward movement. Three is completely in the wrong direction.

Posted by: Section 506 (Before moving)

most of the burnout predictions in the bullpen have been for Rauch, who seems the least affected so far
Posted by: PTBNL (commentary and analysis) | May 14, 2008 4:57 PM

Gee I wonder why........

The main reason that couldn't have happened is that those 'decent established starters' were not out there. Right now, Livan and Lohse are right around 6 or so innings per start. Our 4 regular starters are right there too and most of them have better ERAs. You're not making any improvement by adding guys like that.

Our ERA's would beg to differ with that statement.

-----------------------------------
You're not making any improvement by adding guys like that.

Posted by: NoVA Nat

The whole Bergman, Chico, meltdowns would never have happened. These two could have been in the bull pen when Chad went down on the first day of the season. Now Ray King on this team.....now that was not needed at all but hey he was a Red once right?

Oh man do not remind me of Mike O'Connor mess.....I paid for two extra tickets for that........money into the Lerners pocket for that.....wonder why people want a change......

"I figure you guys making the comments are the ones in the stands with the headphones and scorebooks."

Ballston, you can be a nerd and not be an idiot, too.

The Twins have averaged 6.22 runs in games where Livo has started.

The Nats have offered Perez 3.55 runs per start. Redding has been given 4.36 runs per game.

The Nats average just over four runs per game. Would Livo's 3.90 ERA earn him a 6-1 record in DC? I don't know. I just think it's hard to theoretically insert him and his current numbers without considering the context.

Take it from someone who has played against both, well with Zimmerman and against Milledge. Milledge will be a better player than Zimmerman.
Posted by Balston

Where will he play....CF?

Didn't baseball fans decide in, like, 1985 that W-L was useless in evaluating pitchers? And decide also that ERA wasn't so helpful a couple years ago?

You know, I'd honestly like to see the likes of jayb or LAC try to run a major league club. I have a sneaking suspicion it would look an awful lot like the O's the past ten years or so - trying to rebuild AND contend at the same time.

I, for one, an not ready to give up on Milledge, or Hill, or Bergmann, or Zimmerman, or any of our young players. They haven't performed as expected, true, but I believe they will turn it around.

Milledge will be fine. Remember the start of the season when everyone was singing his praises because only he and Guzman were hitting above .300? He's in a protracted slump, and maybe he should hit 2nd in the lineup since he did so much better there, but his performance to date does not constitute a bad trade by any means.

What I find more - much more - discouraging is a fan base that seems to be becoming as fickle as a New York fan base. Since baseball came back to DC, I was always impressed with the DC fans who generally seemed pretty smart about baseball - applauding and cheering for the little things that so often go unrecognized in other cities. Now though, there's a lot more negativity, booing, or interest solely in home runs, and I think it's really very sad to see that happening.

Ballston,

When/Where did you play with/against Zimmy/Milledge?

Look, I'm trying to build my baseball acumen here, 506. That's three BA visits in one day.

Couldn't you just have said, "Like the stats John posted suggest, W-L is useless in evaluating pitchers." Why do you have to make me feel like I was researching a previously-established point?

Again with the comparing of Livo to Perez and Redding! Why? They'd be in the same rotation, not one or the other. How about a relevent comparison, like Livo's WHIP to that of O'Connor or Chico?

O'Connor: 2.44
Chico: 1.75
Livo: 1.44

*************************************
The Twins have averaged 6.22 runs in games where Livo has started.

The Nats have offered Perez 3.55 runs per start. Redding has been given 4.36 runs per game.

Another thing that I find quite sad, is that there are hardly any comments on this post yet that actually pertain to it, and to the achievements of our minor leaguers - there's a lot to be proud of and excited about in this post, but instead everyone is squabbling that we should have signed Kyle Lohse or Livan Hernandez...and that's really very disappointing.

That was me.

And another thing re: my WHIP post... Livo's been pitching in the AL.

Also, forgot to mention, as the stats John posted suggest, W-L is useless in evaluating pitchers!

Sorry, John, didn't mean to zoooooom by you in my effort to do battle. I will compose the requisite "I'm Sorry" Haiku at some point for you.

BigNatsFan, it's great news on the minors. If you'll notice after really good games things are always quite around here. I share your concern, in fact, I posted on it a few days ago.

I count fans in the Plan, I've decided. We're a bit temperamental, a bit immediate gratification now, but we'll mature into real baseball fans as soon as we stop expecting football seasons instead of baseball seasons.

The comparison wasn't to just Redding and Perez. I did point out that the team as a whole is averaging just over four runs per game. That's more than two runs less than the support Hernandez is getting now in Minnesota.

On top of which, the 6.1 innings per game he's seeing now would most likely be negatively impacted were he inserted into the Nationals rotation. He'd face situations where the Nationals would have to pull him for a pinch hitter in a close game.

My argument is that you can't simply import Hernandez and his 6-1 record, 3.90 ERA, and 6+ innings per game.

-----

Again with the comparing of Livo to Perez and Redding! Why? They'd be in the same rotation, not one or the other.

I'd say don't worry about it, but I do enjoy a good Haiku.

-----

Sorry, John, didn't mean to zoooooom by you in my effort to do battle. I will compose the requisite "I'm Sorry" Haiku at some point for you.

Livo has had 7.96 runs a game for support, and has a WHIP of 1.44. No way in heck he'd get that here.

Can't argue with Livo's ERA (3.90) or that he's been helpful to the Twins, but by most sabremetric measures he has been pretty lucky (ERC 5.09, DIPS 4.99).

Livo has been helped by fielding and ballparks, too. Using Hardball Times measure of fielding independent pitching (FIP), Livo FIP ERA is 4.97, while Perez, Redding and Lannan are the same or better (4.91, 4.56, 4.21). Perez, Redding, and Lannan are on a 180+ inning pace for the season, so we have our innings eaters who are pitching better than him.

Oh, and before anyone says "Sabremetric BS," remember that the argument is "we'd be better off if we signed Livo," which means you have to find a way to translate his stats to the Nats. Sabremetric measures are the only honest way to do that.

I'm out....someone things they would pull Livo for a pinch hitter.....and we are the ones who do not know anything about baseball...

Offense I meant not
Chilled a burger-eating friend
But Spring comes again

JayB, Frank would often USE Livo as a pinch hitter.

Call me if you ever see Manny do that.

Livo would be one of our biggest offensive threats.

My previous comment brings to mind something important to remember about JayB and I. He's a big Frank fan (right?), which explains a lot of his baseball approach. While I love Frank to no end, I think Manny is the manager these Nats need.

Yes, I liked Frank. I also think Acta is fine except when he goes into denial about bad baseball and when he let's Jimbo walk all over him......Frank would put Jimbo in his place when he tried to micro manage the daily lineups.....that is a skill Acta must master soon.

Definitely right on Frank (hahahaha), probably right on Acta needing to learn it (though he's so tight-lipped, we probably would never know when it happened)

The 7.96 runs support came from ESPN's website. John in Mpls had a different number.

Let's take Matt and JayB's argument that Livo and/or Lohse would not have been at the expense of the Perez, Lannan, and Redding.

First, JayB, I think you've been a Hill skeptic, so are you saying we should have a 6 man rotation or that we should give him cement boots? Of course what you are saying is that most teams are going to need 6 or 7 starters, at least, over the year, and that you'd rather have Lohse and / or Livo push one of those guys down, most likely Lannan, to refine his stuff in the minors until needed, even if he is now capable of success at the major league level. You agree that, as long as he is healthy, Hill stays and the other guys would not be able to be sent to the minors once they were on the 25 man?

Where I disagree with you is whether it is better to have a zero upside guy like Livo on this roster or to take our lumps trying to figure out which of our minor league pitchers can cut it at the major league level. We're feeling pretty good about Lannan right now (no guarantees, of course, after his last two starts), but we seem to be out of luck on the 5th slot. I am comfortable with the "Community Auditions / Nationals Idol" approach to that slot, fully recognizing that most of the Mock / Clippard / Balester / Lannan / Bergmann / O'Connor /Chico /Detwiler / Van Allens are likely to bomb out.

If we go with a veteran-only starting rotation, then only those veterans will pitch. Most of those guys have no upside. Some might be flippable in trade mid-year. But until they are out of the rotation, we really would not know what we have in-house. I think that is more important than mediocrity.

Oh, and since I cited the Sabremetric stats on Livo, in fairness, Lohse ERA is 4.91 but his FIP ERA is 3.74, so he likely would have helped considerably. I would not have predicted it off his past record, but I've been wrong before.

A few points to dispute the Milledge had low value/a poor outfield arm comments:

Couple blurbs on Milledge from Baseball America... from 2005 "His speed, range and arm strength make him the best defensive outfielder in the [Mets] system" and from 2006..."He has above-average speed that he uses to his advantage on the bases and in center field, and he also has a plus arm". Note he was also considered one of the top 15 overall prospects in baseball in 05 & 06.

Also, Milledge was linked as the major piece in potential deals for Manny, Oswalt, Blanton, Buerhle & Soriano.

Can't wait to see the above-.500 Orioles and the below-.500 Nats play each other this weekend.

All of you Bowden haters should look at Baseball America's website!

Anybody that thinks Milledge will be better than Zimmerman is. . . I can't find the words. Milledge plays like he just took up the game in Spring Training. If Yogi was right and 90 percent of the game is half mental, Lastings' upside is 55%!

LDO,

Exactly why depending on the Farm and Draft only is problematic....CLEARLY, the BA report on Milledge's arm is completely wrong. He has just about the weakest arm I have seen in MLB in years.....at 18 maybe his arm was strong in comparison to other 18 year olds but how at 23.....weak noodle is a better description than "plus".

I don't see any remotely valid argument for saying that we couldn't use at least one more near league-average innings-eater SP.

The rotation now is Perez, Redding, Hill, Lannan, and the black hole of O'Connor, Bergmann, and Chico. What's the argument against using someone else in that 5 hole?

It is extremely unlikely that all four of Perez, Hill, Redding, and Lannan will last the full year in the bigs and give you 200. 3 of these guys have never done it ever, and Odalis hasn't done it in like 5 years. And Hill of course defies all rational expectations every time he throws a pitch and the arm doesn't fall off.

Keep in mind, our terrible pitching comes at a cost--not just losses. As a result of the terrible SPs we had the last 2 years and the merely below average that we have this year (coupled with roster spots wasted on LOOGYs, hurt back-up catchers, hurt Cordero, and Joel Hanrahan), we are destroying some pretty valuable assets in the pen.

First we ruin Majewski, then Ayala gets a TJ, then Cordero suddenly loses 10 mph off the fastball, and now Ayala seems ready for another TJ, and I haven't even mentioned Saul yet. If we're contending 2-3 years down the road, I promise you'll wish we hadn't run these guys into the ground on teams going nowhere.

I just fear that after destroying these arms that we're now going to wreck Ballester, Detwiler, or one of these young guys by rushing them when they aren't ready. That would be a good way to ensure JimBo protects his perfect record of never drafting a winning SP ever.

JayB:

Milledge may not have a cannon in center field, but considering that center field was routinely graced by FREE AGENT acquisition Nook Logan last year... Any description of Milledge's arm as a wet noodle is laughable.

Nook was the master of one- or two-hopping balls back to second base or shortstop. There's absolutely no denying that arm-wise, Milledge is an upgrade over center field from last year.

I've never seen Milledge have any issue in getting balls to first or third. His defensive deficiencies are far more attributable than poor routes or short attention span than a weak arm.

JayB, stop depending on hyperbole. If you've ever seen Nook Logan, Kenny Lofton, or Juan Pierre play, you know that Lasting Milledge could probably break or sprain his throwing arm and still not have the weakest arm in MLB.

A couple contentions about how signing "inning eaters" saves a bullpen:

First, does leading the league in appearances directly result in poor performance? If so, explain the productivity of Scot Shields or Paul Quantrill or Salomon Torres or even John Rauch. Each has been among the league leaders in games pitched yet all have had periods of success since the late 90's.

Maybe Ayala, for instance, has other issues like recovering from a blown elbow (where he missed a season and a half) or being shot.

The Nats starters are 19th in MLB in innings/start and 8th in the NL. The real issue is runs per start where the Nats average 4.01 runs per game (26th in MLB). As teams in close games leverage a quality start vs pinch hitting, the need for reliever appearances increases. If a pitcher is due up in the 6th where the team needs offense, Acta is going to PH for him. Washington is 3rd in MLB in PH at bats. Pretty simple.

My point is there isnt definitive proof showing a relation between poor performance and # of appearances AND if the offense would put more runs on the board, the team would be willing & able to keep a starter in through the 6th/7th innings.

The bullpen issue isn't because of the starting pitching. Its because of the anemic offense, especially with RISP.

By the way, the Nats average 5 2/3 innings/starter. Lohse averages 5 2/3 innings a start and Livo 6 1/3 (in the AL where he doesnt bat). Please stop using either of these guys as bullpen savers. Roy Halladay is a bullpen saver. Livo & Lohse are not.

John & Los Doce" You both hit on parts of the SP argument; John with the run support argument (Livo) and the AL/NL difference (the DH rule) from the28. My question is that while Matt & JayB are busting on the current rotation, why not show WHIP figures for all the Nats' starters, as compared to Livo and/or Lohse? Where would they fit in the current rotation - Top of the rotation, or would they be overpriced 4th or 5th options?

Repost:
John & Los Doce" You both hit on parts of the SP argument in the prior line; John with the run support argument (Livo) and the AL/NL difference (the DH rule) from the28. My question is that while Matt & JayB are busting on the current rotation, why not show WHIP figures for all the Nats' starters, as compared to Livo/Lohse/etc? Where would they fit in the current rotation - Top of the rotation, or would they be overpriced 4th or 5th options?

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