Real, Strange News

There will be more on this. Haggard is just the tip of the iceberg. Look at Ralph Reed, Ken Melhman and Karl Rove. Pretty and fat gay boys. Mark my words. If a gay fake reporter has repeated "access" to the white house...there is a reason. Thats what they get for making gays a "wedge issue" while being gay themselves. GOTCHA

I feel I have just walked into a cartoon village - what is wrong with all these self-righteous people - are they nuts?? In any case, I'd be leery of anyone who went to a school called "Oral Roberts" - it sounds like a very bad joke!

Where are the good brains, good minds and decent people - time they had a shot at running things.

It isn't considered gay sex if you're the "top" - only if you're the "bottom."

He's totally gay. You can tell. Come on, just turn on your gaydar and listen to the interviews with him. He's so gay. I'm not gay, but I have a good gaydar.

Fortunately I don't have the horrible disadvantage of being prejudicially biased against gays. Not like this dude. He's gonna fry.

To live in the illusion is one thing, to pretend to sell the truth from it is quite another. Just another self rightious preacher who did himself in.

You notice that he looks just like the guy he was porking? Forget gaydar they look more like butt buddies than Kid n Play. Who ever leaks there tape will make a fortune. Amen

Its sad,very sad that a man of God knowing what he does about the christian life could let money and fame distroy his witness for christ firstly and ruin his wife and family as well.Homosexuality is not of god.And he professed to rep God!!he truely isnt a man of God.But probably just a mans man!Doomed!
Now more than ever christians need to be watchful of the future and be good reps of Gods love and Grace

Haggard sounds, to me, like Clinton did when he famously admitted that he smoked pot but said that he didn't inhale... Haggar said that the man, an acknowledged gay, came into his hotel room just to give him a massage!! That is pitiful.

I know. I know. Reverend Haggard will protest that he didn't know that Mike Jones was gay. Remind me not to be in the same public restroom with this evangelical and self-righteous and lying hypocrite!

Perhaps Pastor Haggard should check himself into the same drug treatment facility that ex-Congressman Foley did recently.

Read this account of Mr. Haggard's universe:
http://harpers.org/SoldiersOfChrist-20061103288348488.html

It's a bit to slog through, but it paints a pretty freaky picture about what life is like for Mr. Haggard and his New Lifers there in Colorado. You thought Rush was bad? Wait till you read this.

The dude is a whack job. Anyone who believes in him or defends him is also lumped into that category.

We will surely find out more dirt in the coming days, but remember that the dirt is on one man and not on a religion or church. While this will impact and devastate many people (not least of all the Haggard Family), I'm sure that the anti-christian and gay activists couldn't be happier.
Why don't you guys suprise us all and leave the scandal to be answered by the man involved instead of throwing it the church's face. That would be super classy.

I didnt inhale, I mean I didnt snort... nice call Leo. Who buys meth but doesn't use it! Its not like a jar of mayo or a box a baking soda! How much you wanna bet he's going to go to rehab and say he was abused too and then be reaccepted by half his sheep

Having sex with gays "ain't the same
me as marrying them."

I think the dirt is on religion, organized religion in general, and anyone who purports or claims different moral values than what they practice. This behavior is quite prevalent throughout the churches and organized religions today. They all want to speak to what YOU do in YOUR bedroom. Never mind about their own.

The message from Colorado Springs seems to be 'This is the Church's issue and one man's life.Let us be.'

Hmm. Sound familiar?

These Churches wield their judgemental opinions in the White House and the ballot booth, branding gays as sinners unfit for equal rights. Meanwhile the gay community marches on with the mantra that 'it's our issue and our life'

Re: Charley
you're right. Good christans boys don't have gay sex before they have been married in the eyes of God. Anything less would be a sin.

Think about it. If Haggard was truly innocent, he would have said, "This guy Jones is lying. I'll see him in court." He would have been outraged, and with justification. But he didn't say Jones is lying, and that is very significant, and exposes the truth of the matter.

Wow! I'm willing to bet that most of you who have posted a comment on this are either gay or in support of gays. Let me get one thing straight, this is a tactic against heterosexual marriage. The election is in four days. This allegedly happened over a year ago. Wow, what are the chances that this would release so close to a critical election? I wonder. That being said, I am willing to face facts, Haggard's story sounds fishy. Thankfully, our legal system works by the notion of innocence until proven guilty.

Practice what you Preach!!!. . Its nice to know that this guy is closely affiliated with the Bush administration. Is there anyone that he is associated with that doesn't have some ghost in the closet kind of criminal mischief? It's a dissapointment to no end to know these people are in charge and have a most influential sway making laws and taking away our freedom and preach one thing while practicing another. Personally I think he deserves to be blasted. Not for the Gay Sex that he says didn't happen or the drugs. It's about lying and trying to sway people to take away freedom. So much for George's Blotched Bloke!!!!

By the way, even if Haggard is guilty of having used meth and of having gay sex, it doesn't change a thing. Homosexuality is still Biblically wrong. Thankfully, Christianity's beliefs, values and morals aren't grounded in the actions of men. They don't rise and fall based on man's own sin or righteousness. What matters is that Jesus Christ resurrected two thousand years ago. Which, by the way, he did. So even the mighty sin of Ted Haggard cannot change one act from being good or evil. Sorry.

Yes to meth, no to gay sex? Partying with Tina sure breathes New Life into party n' pray, baby, PARTY AND PRAY!

I feel badly for this guy's wife and five kids. And I wonder how many of his church members will see the gross hypocrisy of what he has personnally done and reject the church and its values in general.

LOLZ @ Christian Core Values

Hey "The only one worth a damn": you neglected to capitalize "he", as in, "He who died for your sins and hates homosexuals". You are so totally going to hell.

P.S. Way to completely ignore the hypocrisy of Haggard, and his ilk.

Ted Haggard
Dear God.

Thank you for Ted Haggard. He is one of your servants who should have been fired a long time ago.

Speaking on your behalf. Maligning your great spirit of inclusion, love and wonder.

Don't you hate it when lowly employees take it upon themselves to articulate viewpoints and they are not only wrong, but polar opposite of official opinion.

Your son got it right. Jesus. That son. He preached that all men are brothers, truly children of God. Love their neighbor and help the poor. (You know, why not somehow transmit the idea that Jesus was gay. Let Jerry Falwell explain that. I'll leave it to you to work out the details.)

His first miracle was changing water into wine.Jesus. God knows what Haggard has done. Whoops. Of course you know.

Back to Ted Haggard. He is, excuse me, was, an Evangelical preacher. Head of their association. By the way, if they have an association, there are far too many of them.

Haggard. You know the type. Hellfire and brimstone. Preaching hate.

Why don't you smite people like that?

Well maybe you did.

Haggard, a married father of five, has recently been accused of an adulterous affair. Here is the best part. His lover helped him score drugs and the lover is a man.

Hallelujah.
At first Haggard denied everything but now concedes that some facts are true. His lover/dealer possesses proof. Recorded phone messages.

Years back, when these guys were just embezzling money and seeing prostitutes, it did not have the same, je ne sais qua. (For my writing group, I could be referring to Jim Bakker or Jimmy Swaggart.)

There would be tears, prison and the promise of redemption. Apparently you don't turn your back on the sinner. So, slowly, things would calm down and people would either preach again or go to work in the private sector.

But Haggard. A gay relationship. Is this you working in mysterious ways? Are you demonstrating how wrong the homophobic religious leader actually is? I know your ways are beyond the ken of mortal man.

But hey. You are omnipresent. You are glorious. You are God. But are you so busy that you allow George Bush to bleat that you wanted him to be President. Really, you never seemed the type to prioritize brutally tragic wars and tax cuts for the rich.

So you allowed this .... person, Bush, to, ...what is the phrase? Ah yes, use your name in vain. And a lie. Where are the plagues? Toads? Locusts? Do something. Drive him from the Rose Garden. With large lightening bolts.

Be the Old Testament God.

Haggard's downfall was probably inevitable. Some lovers are discreet. Drug dealers have to be. But a combination, together with the lure of a large national audience. That signaled inevitable disclosure.

Now, back to important matters. Iraq. Darfur. Tragedy all over the globe. Exploitation of the poorest and most vulnerable people on this planet.

You know, your children.

I guess this means that he didn't inhale or swallow.

Why is no one commenting on the fact that Haggard initially said he had never met the man, didn't even know who he was, and now he says, oh yes, I bought drugs and a massage from him??

People, be confident of this: God is purging the church of its hypocrisy and wolves who are in sheeps clothing: "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in" (Matt 23:13, kjv).

I am convinced you will see more about this man in the future, and others in Christian leadership positions who have in arrogance and pride thought they could hide in darkness, while professing to carry the light of the world. "Judgement begins at the house of God".

Oh God have mercy on us. Forgive us for our great iniquity and hypocrisy which has shamed your great name. Revive Us Again..for your NAME SAKE; YOUR GLORY LORD JESUS CHRIST.

Saddest thing of all: that most Christians are still so blind to the fact that being gay is NOT wrong, is not a sin. If Ted Haggard did have a sexual involvement with this guy, the tragedy is that he (Ted) has been forced by society and his version of Christianity (which is a long way from the good news Jesus brought) to deny who he really is in order to conform to societal and religious expectations. That personal dishonesty is the tragedy and IF this whole thing is true, maybe it will afford Ted the opportunity to get real for the first time in his life, face up to who he is and stop hiding behind societal and religious conventions. God loves the real Ted Haggard, regardless of his sexual orientation.

I forgot that he said in the beginning he never met the Jones. So hes changed his story how manytimes already?? Does anyone actually think he didn't go hammer-head with that massage therapist, excuse me gay escort? Nothing wrong with being gay but theres a lot wrong with telling people its a sin and whole lot more if you do both at the same time while spun out on meth. Not sure if hell exists but Haggard must feel pretty close right now. I'd pay to be a fly on the wall in his bedroom when he says goodnight to his wife.

Jeez, what on earth is going on in your country? (I'm in London.) Not only does the guy look and act like a classic closet case, but how foolish does he think TV viewers are? The two interviews (the first one where he denied he knew Jones, and the second one where he was curtained off by his poor long-suffering wife) were too bizarre for words. No satirist would get away with such material. So, what straight man would even contemplate going to a muscle-bound hulk for a massage? And, what punter receives only a massage from a masseur-cum-rentboy? But, his claims that he threw the meth away - and his manner throughout the second carbound interview - are just extraordinary. Everyone knows meth is the gay man's way of spicing up sex - especially the gay man who likes bottoming, since it makes one's erection evaporate but sets one's libido ablaze. This whole story is truly just mindalteringly weird. Like an alternative universe.

Did anyone read the part where Jones spoke to his lawyer about the strategy for this attack, i.e., the lawyer told Jones he needed more evidence, which is still waiting in the wings!

The evidence is already out there. There are two voicemails and an envelope addressed to Jones. Lord have mercy on us.

For those who said that this was a moment of madness on his part well 3 years is a long moment.

Wasn't Jesus gay?

StraightGuy in London: For being str8, you sure know a lot about gay bottoms. :) No slur intended, but you hit the nail on the head about why meth is involved.

And the person from adtractive: Way to go.

Let's get it straight (so to speak). The animals with the larger brains all exhibit some sort of homosexual behavior from time to time. Dolphins, elephants, monkeys. So this apparently means that they are also sinners and should be destroyed because of that? This is Christianity here, not Islam. (oooh, burn!)

For those anti-gay people: What difference does it really make to YOUR LIFE what OTHER PEOPLE want to do in their beds? I can name some straight sex acts that are more disgusting (to Joe Average) than most gay sex acts.

What Jesus said is that you should love your fellow man, no matter who he wants or what he does in his own bed (nunyabiz anyway, really), and no matter what he does to you (offends your religion, Islam?). He said not to exploit people (you Catholics! Children, ffs!), and keep your moneychangers out of the temple, you Jews. (Who were the biblical Pharisees again? Hmmmmm)

Which large organized religion have I missed? Wait a sec... the Buddhists? Anyone have anything to say about them? Perhaps they actually got "It" the closest.

All of these organized religions have some things in common: They all profess "moral values" that you apply to others, the "wrongness" of certain behaviors that have no effect on anyone besides the person practicing the behavior, and a blatant hypocrisy in their own actual practices. This corruption extends to the government as well.

The Jehovah's Witnesses dropped a pamphlet at my door the other day saying some things about the Harlot and the Beast. The Harlot is all the "false religions and churches" and the Beast is the political juggernaut that carries it. The beast will kill the harlot, according to the Bible, but it is (apparently) up to us poor slobs (God's Children) to kill the Beast. They also don't like gays, by the way. I am sure this makes for a large percentage of closet cases in their religion. More lies.

I propose the following political changes:
Ban all campaign advertising
Ban all monterary contributions to any party
Independent local NONPARTISAN review of all initiatives, measures, etc.
Stop electing politicians to office. Elect business leaders instead. (Can anyone say budget deficit?)
If someone *wants* to run for office, disqualify them from doing so.

I propose the following religious changes:
Disband all organized churches
Prohibit any sort of religious context from making it into the government (Separation of Church and State)
Make it a crime to preach on any sort of electronic media (inside the church is fine).

I stoped voting years ago because I was disgusted with the system. That does NOT mean that I am not entitled to an opinion about it. :)

I came out to all my friends as not-str8 (and NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS ABOUT IT) some time ago. Yes, I lost some of them. The friends I lost are a small price to pay for the benefit of being HONEST with myself & others.

Honesty is always the best policy, unfortunately there are only a small percentage of honest people in the world, and the percentage approaches zero the closer you get to the top of the towers.

heh, I am done ranting. I realize that some of these opinions may be unpopular. Flame on! :)

Homework assignment:

Read the Bible. Know that it has been changed by people over thousands of years to be what the clergy wants the masses to believe in. See if you can find the original message. (it's in there still, trust me.)

Read the Qu'ran (Islamic Bible). Know that it's not anywhere near as corrupted by men as the Bible is. Look for its "original message", or "sponsoring thought".

Read some stuff from the Dalai Lama.

Read some Catholic stuff too. While you're at it, see if you can find some literature from each and every large organized religion. Compare the differences with their "original messages".

Gather and correlate all newspaper articles referencing political corruption in the USA. Then do the same for every other country you can think of. Divide by population ratio. Come up with a mathematical average of how many liars are in office in each country.

Do the same thing with the religions as well. See how many of their people are really preaching the "original message" of their own religion.

The results may surprise you. There's a test on Monday. :)

Well, I guess poor ole 'Pastor Ted' is feeling pretty haggard now. I don't know who are the bigger fools - the carpetbaggers who start these 'churches' (for lack of a better word as they certainly aren't houses of good clean faith) or the sheep who follow these cartpetbaggers. Maybe they all just deserve one another. The shame of it is, there's a buffoon in the White House now who puts stock (apparently, but methinks this is all a facade too) in the mouthings of these Charletans. These sub-humans are beyond disgusting!

Does this mean we can now call it the "George Dubya Butch" administration? Lol!

Boy oh boy, when you lie down with a dog, you most certainly get fleas!! Pastor Ted and his ilk must be scratching up a storm.

To me, a Brit, such churches very bizarre.

In the Harpers story cited above:
"He [Pastor Ted Haggard] staked out gay bars, inviting men to come to his church"

Another preacher in the cult:

I'm sending you to the Underworld.' Where the creatures are. The critters! The people who are out of it. People you see in Colorado Springs, even. You got an underworld of people. The tattoo crowd, the people into drugs, the people into sex. You find 'em . . . in the Underworld."
- yeah, and turns out you find those Underworld people in some high places too.

In the Prayer Center:
"Each point directs the eye to a contemporary painting, most depicting gorgeous, muscular men--one is a blacksmith, another is bound, fetish-style, in chains--in various states of undress."

Funny: "Christian Bookstore" in an outside shopping mall with very obvious anti-theft devices in place.

Harpers has been around a very long time. Arguably, it is one person's opinion, but that person cites a long string of irrefutable facts, punctuated by opinions where it would do the most (damage/good).

I, too, have noticed the BDSM theme in a various number of religious paraphernalia. Part of the whole thing in believing in a conscious higher power that is, in toto, separate from oneself and steeped in prose such as "humans are unable to understand God's workings".

To believe in such lofty and unattainable (for the "lay" person) statuses, must, then, by definition, create "what is not", the subordinate, groveling, sinning, pain-wracked, bloody, tortured human being, who is, by definition, UNWORTHY of the house of God and should REPENT of what he's currently doing.

What a freakin load of hogwash. :) No offense intended, mind you.

The real deal is that we are all interconnected, in the basest base of our individual atoms. "We are all one", and to love thy neighbor is to love thyself. (Says this in the bible somewhere, I forget where).

I believe that everything happens for a reason. I believe that everything turns out like it's supposed to. I believe that we are here to create, not necessarily learn. I believe that "God's purpose for you" is to live your life as if you were going to die tomorrow, and create new reality as if you were going to live forever.

Sweet, huh. :)

No, I didn't make any of this stuff up myself. It's all borrowed from other places. I have a huge long list of things that I've begged, borrowed, stolen, made up (yes, there are some that I made myself) called Mikeyisms. I am now preaching this religion to you. Are you having fun yet? :)

You're going to do whatever you want to anyway, even if it's lie, cheat, steal, take it up the butt after snorting meth, diddling little kids, or even getting elected to public office.

You can also spend your entire life making others happy because it makes you happy to see them happy, and because their heartfelt thanks is worth more than money to you. You could concentrate your efforts towards this on your immediate family and surroundings, or you can spread it all over the world.

It's all good. :) God isn't "mad at you" for anything. Mikeyism: "The only sin is being dishonest with oneself." God is happy for you when you *do* something with your life that causes "love". Mikeyism: Love and fear are polar opposites, and the only two true "forces" of the emotions. Sin is the same as fear in this context.

Once people actually take a look at what's in their own hearts, minds & souls, then, and only then, will "true religion" reveal itself. All the religious documents & stuff come close, but what "The Real Deal" is can't be described in words, or even felt in feelings. It just "is", and it has no consciousness. It's only desire is to know itself fully. Each of us is a piece of this. Everything there is, is a piece of this.

Once all y'all "get it", the change will be drastic, immediate and permanent. That's the "second coming" all the Jesus people are talking about. A massive shift in emotional and spiritual consciousness. Too bad it won't be in our lifetimes. :( We will just have to try to prepare our children, and our grandkids for it.... Or not. Maybe we should let them create it on their own. We, as people, should all just practice what we preach (including the elected &&/|| followed ones, our political and religious leaders) and stop trying to say that things other people do are "wrong" even when they hurt noone. This is the example we set for our kids, and their kids, and so on. One wonders why the youth act the way they do. It's because of their parents! Because all of the crap they see going on in the world. Our kids aren't stupid, but it's possible to raise them that way.

The political and religious "leaders" (used lightly) of this country don't do any of the "good" stuff. They lie. We catch them at it. (Thanks Mike Jones!) They hide. They fear what the public will think. They try to toe the line. "They" are basically all hypocrites. There are exceptions, yes, but in time they go under too, as we are all human, and "absolute power corrupts, absolutely." The "good" people aren't the ones in the highest locations. There's a reason for that. :)

To be human, we must experience both love and fear. "In the absence of that which is, that which is not, is NOT."

That's a hard one to swallow right there.

Maybe I should go on a talk show or something. :)

To jfc: Hey buddy thank you for that correction. I should have capitalized He. I am sorry. As for your statement regarding my neglection of Haggard's hypocrisy, yes he is a hypocrite, but my point was that his hypocrisy does not make his sin the least bit correct. Also God hates all sinners not just gays. So get over yourself.

To the rest of you: Quit relying on your postmodern "common knowledge" of scripture.
No Jesus wasn't gay. Yes homosexuality is wrong (Sodom and Gomorrah anyone and don't pull that inhospitality BS). Read the Bible for yourselves, see the truth, and stop spouting heresy. Thanks, for your time.

Response to "Wasn't Jesus gay?"

No, the apostle John was gay. Jesus was the top.

What hypocrits you are! The bible says a whole lot of things that no one--no matter how pious--follows. Why do you harp on a couple obscure sentences to keep Gays down when there are whole chapters dedicated to sacrificing beasts, not eating certain foods and stoning non-believers. Shoot, your violating the 4th commandment (Sabbath) just by reading this! What gives you the right to pick and choose God's words and say your holier than others? You make me sick.

One cannot reason with people who arbitrarily choose a book of unauthenticated authorship (the Bible), and then unilaterally decide that certain parts of it are the words of the divine creator (the gay bashing), while other parts are not (the enemy's baby splattering). Instead, we should regard these fellow humans with sympathy and compassion, as we would confused and frightened children. Theirs is a painful path.

Wow two! A. Thanks for copying me B.The word you're looking for is hypocrite and C. You're still NOT getting the point. The point of Scripture is not that there are a bunch of rules that can't possibly be followed, so we ignore them. No, Scripture's rules are to be upheld. Give it up, no one's sin or inability to follow the rules of Scripture makes the rules obsolete and unauthoritative. The whole concept behind salvation is that Jesus is the only one who is truly righteous , and we need his grace to upheld the very few rules that we do. D. Saturday is the Sabbath.

To Carbrando: Buddy, you're the one who daily sees the beauty of loveliness of women and still choses men. That makes you the confused child. Just know that Bible is an incredible work of God's spoken word. No one is going to get it all right. I bet you can't even grasp the whole concept of your hardcore postmodernism. Which enemy and baby splattering are you referring to? Your inability to specifically state where this is in the Bible, shows me that you are using the "common Biblical knowledge" that everyone uses without knowing what the heck they're talking about. If I'm the confused child, then your mentally retarded.

I believe Ted was just applying christian teachings of turning the other cheek...

Only One, do you uphold the Sabbath? If not then according to the bible you have committed a far greater sin than being gay.
Upholding Biblical laws in this day and age would be about as practical and executable as having a logical conversation with an automaton such as yourself. (FYI if you're looking for a society where the scriptures are followed dogmatically, why don't you just move to Iran? I'm guessing no one would miss you.) The one message Jesus seems to be all about, is the Golden Rule. Why don't Evangelicals try it out for a bit and leave the gay bashing in the closet.

Jesus taught only one thing, but he tried to express it in a bunch of different parables. Try to guess what this "one thing" is. I think it's "Pure Love". Everyone has their own interpretation.

Any other "rules", or anything like that that does not fall under the umbrella of "Pure Love", were put in the Bible by MEN. Not by "God". God only has one desire for you, and that is for you to be who you are going to be. God isn't ever going to restrict that by writing down rules!!

Now.

Is telling someone else that the way they exhibit love, or sex, or themselves, or whatever, "wrong"?

The USA has several protections for free speech, free association, etc. This was in an attempt to get around the despotic European governments in the 17 & 18 cy AD. Arguably the world has moved more towards a secular, democratic style of oppression since then. :)

If you take only one thing away from my diatribe here, take this:

Hate is a product of fear. Fear is the opposite of love. God is Love. Fear is Satan.

Whatever it says in the Bible, apply the above rule to it.

Only eat certain meats? Fear of getting sick because of undeveloped cooking methods. How much you wanna bet that was put there by men? Pork chops today are much safer than they were 2000 years ago. :)

Don't work on the Sabbath? Fear of getting tired or overworked. That's why it's a RULE. The PROPER way to go about this is to LOVE spending time with your FAMILY.

I can't find a rule in there that says it's OK to hate gay people. Mind quoting me some chapter/verse stuff about where in the Bible says it's OK to hate gay people? Or to hate anyone?

Wait, is that old or new testament? Umm, which book again? What was the guys' name that wrote it?

Go through and subject *all* the "rules" you find in the Bible to this test. Make notes of which "rules" are based in fear and which are based in Love. Only the ones based in Love, Acceptance, Understanding and Closeness are the ones you should take to heart. All the rest were put there by man in order to gain control over the medieval population, who were dying from overwork, eating bad meat, killing their neighbors...

Why? Intolerance! Islam is rife with it today! Did you see where they sentenced Saddam? The Shiites rioted, the Sunnis celebrated. What does that remind you of? Democrats & Republicans! Split straight down party lines. Know what this tells me? NOONE who claims "party affiliation" is capable of independent thought! This includes Shiite and Sunni Muslims! Sad!

Take a look at a world history class. More and bloodier wars have been fought in the name of God, than for any other reason (including oil). The Inquisition? Does that top the Holocaust? Why all this pressure to force God down peoples' throats, when He's been there the whole time and trying to come out?

Take a look at history of the Middle East. They have been fighting there for years and years and years. They aren't going to stop anytime soon. That's who they are. If we don't like it, it's our job to remove our dependency on that region's products in order to remove ourselves from that reality. Once we do that (remove the money source), they go back to being a 3rd world country. :)

Even the Bible is full of murder, treachery, death. Does that make it "OK"? "Only if the person is ...., or doesn't believe in .... , or does this in his bedroom." Blatant hypocrisy in action.

A question for the only one worth a damn: Which is more "wrong", being gay or killing someone? Or are they the same? I noticed you totally sidestepped the animals with bigger brains statement. Also, if you take *everything* in the Bible literally, no exceptions, then how do you reconcile the blatant contradictions? You're full of holes, sir, and your theories about being a "good Christian" simply do not hold water. Your behavior speaks for itself. Your words of hate and wrongness towards gay people are a slap in Jesus' face.

One religion that's even older than Jesus says "An it hurt no one, do as thou wilt." As long as it's your own business, like being gay, then it's noone elses. If you HURT or HATE or PERSECUTE or are PREDJUDICED to other people because of who they are, what they believe, or who they sleep with, then that makes YOU wrong. You are being dishonest and fearful, and not full of Love.

That religion was forcibly stamped out. (they were, after all, sacrificing humans, and that's wrong, see...)

All of that matters little. All of what is said here is an opinion, not fact, as "we" have no proof of what God really wants "us" to do, unless we listen to our own souls. As long as you're following someone else's written-down rules, or someones' partisan dogma, you're not listening to your own soul. When you truly listen, some things will happen. You'll stop being judgmental of others, and you'll become accepting. You'll lead your own life the way you want to live it, rather than the way someone else tells you to live it.

You'll be happy every day. Miracles will happen. You'll start practicing random acts of senseless kindness.

Jesus was able to accomplish miracles simply because he's been one of a select few enlightened people on the planet since. I am talking less than 10 here.

For some reason, everyone thinks that God stopped talking to us during Jesus' time, and that the Bible is the "only way". Truth is that God is talking to everyone, all the time, constantly, and we have simply forgotten how to listen.

You'll know when God is talking to you, and you are listening, because you'll forget about the HATE you were TAUGHT to feel by words and by people, and rather start to feel love all the time, towards everyone.

This takes a lot of work on your part. Mostly to drown out all the background noise of your consciousness, which is telling you that fags are disgusting, trying to outshine your soul all the time, because that is what the world trained it to do. People in churches can't do it either, because not only do they have to drown out their own noise, they have to drown out everyone else's.

Untrain yourselves. Listen up. Once you do this you'll stop hating gay people, and see these idiot "spiritual leaders" for who they really are as well. Once you start loving YOURSELF, and in turn loving GOD, and who God really is. He's not some jerk in the Bible who mysteriously changes ways between testaments! God is always perfectly consistent. We humans, are not.

My own personal theory about God is that God defined how atoms fit together, the speed of light and time, and created a "super" hydrogen molecule about 12 billion years ago, let it become "reality" (big bang), and let nature and ordered chaos sort it all out after that. You can believe this or not. It would have taken exact calculations to determine the "base values" of the laws of physics. If the speed of light, strong & weak forces, or gravity were any different than they are, reality wouldn't even exist.

If you want to believe in a higher consciousness, believe in it based on what you own soul tells you, or maybe even on a mathematical proof as I did, but surely not some book written and modified from its original format over 2000 years ago, by MEN.

Have a nice day. :)

Jesus never sinned

1 Cor 6:9
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders

Hmmmmmm. Obscure passage????
Words more like, decisive, crystal clear and obvious come to mind.
Also phrases like "not subject to interpretation"...
Also the context of the verse is very clear so I'll just post the whole chapter for ya. Enjoy.
Hey maybe you should read the whole book just to put that in context (not Corinthians silly, the whole thing...the Bible.)
People who claim that the bible is friendly towards any kind of sin. Either haven't read it,are lying or are just quoting people who claim they have read it and either havent read it or are lying about it.

1 Cor 6
1 Corinthians 6

6:1 If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4 Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church! 5 I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? 6 But instead, one brother goes to law against another-and this in front of unbelievers!

7 The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? 8 Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers.

9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

12 "Everything is permissible for me"-but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"-but I will not be mastered by anything. 13 "Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"-but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." 17 But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.
NIV

The book was still written and revised and changed by men, and as such is suspect. So are all the other religious texts.

Can't you follow your own spirit? Must there always be someone else who tells you how to live?

The reason the MEN put these words in the bible (all words, in fact) is to keep people from getting SICK and from DYING. They SAID that it was God's word from the start, as they would not have been believed otherwise. "Animals and plants too small to see that make you sick? Ridiculous! Earth orbits around the sun? Why it's flat, you moron! We'll kill you unless you publically admit otherwise!" (This as late as the 1600's mind you!)

Then, as time went on, those same PEOPLE persecuted, murdered, ostracized from the church, anyone seen as "sinning", or committing adultery... same thing goes with the ten commandments. All people seen as violating one of those were killed or ostracized.

I still don't find anything where it says it's OK to hate & persecute these people. Mind quoting that relevant section of Scripture, your honor?

Sound like your God? Then you go worship Him and so be it. But keep your bible-thumping man-written verse to your own insular, xenophobic, homophobic selves and quit trying to foist off this FICTION on the rest of the enlightened world.

People today are smart enough to use condoms so they don't catch AIDS or herpes, or the clap. Those diseases used to kill thousands of people who were "sexually immoral". Wake up. Don't you SEE why that was put in there?

Anyway. I am digressing. Back to the point.

Those people who preach the Bible and avoidance of all the "sin" contained therein are welcome to do so, provided that they PRACTICE what they preach, and keep it out of the view of the rest of the world, who takes it with a grain of salt (as it should be taken, being only a BOOK.)

It's too early for me to argue with all y'all thumpers this morning.

I think I've seen & said quite enough here. It's obvious that I'm not going to change your mind. You just keep on quoting that Scripture. Have fun with that!

I'm really getting rather tired of this "common biblical knowledge" that you guys are grounding your points in. Two Damns again, thank you for copying me. Also I would like to thank you for being the dumbest reader ever. You comprehend nothing, simply put, absolutely nothing. ONCE AGAIN, It is impossible to keep all rules of the Bible. Even if we could, we still wouldn't be righteous enough because we are sin. And also, all sins are the same in the eyes of God (sabbath breaking and homosexuality are equally digusting, wrong, and evil). If you don't get it this time, kill yourself (I'm guessing no one's going to miss you very much and yes that was a sin).
To mikey: What do you believe in? Because I'm pretty sure that it's been modified BY MEN (just mocking ya, ha ha) through the course of history. By the way, you don't throw out God's word on the basis that it's not lovey enough. Granted, there are some ceremonial laws that have been done away but those have been clearly stated. Sorry gays just aren't on that list.

In conclusion, if you don't know your Bible, then don't talk about it. If you do, your dumb and your wasting our time. Thank You, Have a great day.

By the way Two, treat others as you would like to be treated does not mean you do not call sin what it is. I don't treat a homosexual any differently than a Christian (except for when dealing in affairs that only a Christian would now about). Homosexuality is a sin, and calling such (notice how when I told you to kill yourself, I called it a sin, because that's what it is) is not disobeying the golden rule. The problem with you,your ilk, and all the other POMO's (Postmoderns) in here, is that you guys have let stupid humanist logic destroy any capabilities you may have had to interpret Scripture correctly. Again, if you don't know about Scripture, shut up about it. I don't understand why you can't stick to your humanist logic (Instead of talking about the Bible. Which you obviously know nothing about). Oh, that's right, it sucks. I guess I am an automaton because my beliefs are grounded. They don't change every five seconds. Thanks.

A little warning to those smartasses here who equate Ted Haggard, or any other fallen minister, with Christians in general: It was TED HAGGARD who lied, cheated, and was a hypocrite...not GOD! That Ted Haggard disgraced himself and rendered himself worthless on the national religious scene doesn't change anything about what the Bible says or teaches about homosexuality or drug use or hypocrisy amongst preachers for that matter. The messenger was faulty but the message is no less valid. God STILL calls homosexuality an abomination, and it is still wrong. So is adultery, gluttony, and cheating on your taxes. The church has an obligation to stand for a biblical world view, but it has to do so in love. (not the type Mr. Haggard apparently practiced) You need to back off a bit before you start blaming all christians or all churches. And for the same reasons we don't immediately assume all lesbians aren't the bigotted lodmouthed obnoxious asses that Rosie Odonnell is.

It always amuses me when you Bible Thumpers start spewing forth passages from that book. Why bother?

To us folks who think the Bible is fiction (albeit fiction with a FEW good lessons), this is what fuels our distrust of people like you.

I fully recogize your right to believe what you want... why is that you Bible Thumpers never recognize the rights of anyone ELSE?? Gee, I don't WANT to go to Heaven if it means I have to rub shoulders with people like you!!

None of that nonsense you have been posting is going to change any minds here. Sorry. You are just making yourselves look like wackos.

L West, you don't have to go to heaven, you can always consider hell.

Who are we to use the LORD'S NAME so in vain and to believe that it will not result in cursing to all of us? Let's talk frankly about anything... but let's be careful to do not bring to ourselves what we surely do not desire. Jesus loves truth, He is The Truth! He said: "For everything that is hidden will eventually be brought into the open, and every secret will be brought to light." (Mark 4:22) And Jesus loves all of us. No matter what we've thought, said or done, He loves us and wants to forgive and offer a new beginning. He most greatest concern to each one of us is our happiness. Who you are? What are you doing? These are, sure, important questions. But the most important question is: Are you happy? To believe in Jesus as your LORD and SAVIOUR, and to rely in His perfection and acomplished REDEMPTION'S MISSION, there in the Calvary, is to catch the key for real happiness and sense of living! You can be who you wants to be. You can do what you wants to do. We are completely free. A huge mistake is to believe we are free from the consequences of our choices. God will punish all of our bad and selfish choices(Ec 11). If you are exactly who you wants to be... doing that what you decide is the best for you to be doing... WHY ARE YOU SO ANGRY, SO SAD, SO UNHAPPY? You may hear Jesus saying: "Come to me!" Please let's quitting pointing fingers! Any fingers!!! Let's try to get the lessons that sometimes really bad examples brings to us. The real CHURCH OF CHRIST is not made of leaders and members who fails setting good example of faithfull life, bringing shame and sorrow to the whole Body. The Church of Christ (the real one) is the one Seing by God, a God who can not be deceived for men's facade. God knows each one who belongs to him. May our God bless us all!

Well, it sounds like I will never make it to Hell, since YOU are "THE ONLY ONE WORTH A DAMN". Pompousness reigns supreme... HA HA.

See what I mean? SHEESH. Like I said, most people reading that nonsense will be able to see it for what it is. Most intelligent people reading it will just IGNORE it, like I should have. Tee hee.

Good night all, have fun. Say hi to God for me when you get to wherever he is, okay?

Truly though we are all worth a damn. So if you're so intelligent why did you post?

Besides you're the one who said you didn't want to go to heaven. The only other option is hell. And if you don't like that thought, tough.

The Bible says: Dont judge others or you will be judged. Now the Christian right, after violating that law of God themselves, wants to brush aside what this man has done to himself, his family, and to innocent gay people by judging them. If one of their most important leaders is homosexual, maybe they should just have the common sense to realize what Science has been telling them for years, that homosexuality is innate, people like Haggard are born with it, and if they are truly Christian they should have some true Christian compassion for those who are different, but equal in the eyes of God.

I had to come back and apologize to people like Kevin for the angry outbursts I posted last night. I just get so FED UP with these right-wing evangelicals shoving their brand of Christianity down my throat.

Kevin is right in his post above.

People don't wake up one day and say "Oh, gee whiz, I think I will be a homosexual from now on." Homosexuals are born that way, God made them that way, and NOBODY has the right to call gay people immoral just because they were born.

Folks, it's okay to believe in the Bible, but some of you get so worked up about it that your blood pressure must be rising. To come here and quote scripture is ridiculous. If we wanted to see that, we would find a Bible to read. Please understand, and this includes you, Mr. W.A.D. ( worth a damn ) that many, many people DO NOT believe that the Bible is the Word of God, and you are wasting your time feverishly typing it all out for us to see. It's okay to NOT believe in the Bible too!!

I am not going to go to Hell just because I don't believe in the Bible. You live in a different reality, Mr. W.A.D. If you believe in a hell, then you need to make damn sure YOU don't end up in YOURS.

You would be better off conversing with others of your ilk who ALREADY believe all this fundamentalist stuff. Birds of a feather, and all that...praise the Lord.

It is impossible to have any intelligent discussion when there is no common ground at all.

All right, I've ruminated on this subject for far too long. As of this post, I am checking out of the washington post hotel. I would first like to thank you all for your opinions, compelling or not.

Kevin you're wrong. Your postmodern logic has skewed your views on what is to be considered judging. It's a call to reconciliation, not outright denial of sin. It has its place among the other topics of the Bible and is not to be confused.

L-West, believe what you want about hell. I'm pretty sure that one day, either sometime in your lifetime or on judgement day (I pray for the former rather than the latter), you'll get a rude awakening. I love how you call for me to quit quoting scirpture, yet you agree with Kevin's statement (which quotes scripture). Sounds a little hypocritical to me. Secondly, I haven't "quoted" Scripture, I've just been correcting statements made by those like Kevin who don't understand what it is they are referring to. Like you said, most people don't read the Bible. As to the claim regarding the "born different" argument, the pedophile, the thief, the rapist, the liar, the gossiper, the murderer, and the adulturer all have right to the "I was born different claim." We were all born with sin, but that doesn't void our sin. The Moo campaign is garbage.

Once again, thanks for the debate and the fun, have a great Election Tuesday.

Mr. W.A.D.,

I was referring to the part of Kevin's post about Science, not about scripture. There is nothing hypocritical about that. I don't claim to know much of what's in the Bible. I stopped reading on the first page of Genesis, since it sounded like a bunch of B.S. to me!! And every other snippet I have ever read, including what you posted, only reaffirms that opinion.

I do like the Golden Rule. That's a nice touch, but that concept can be found in many places besides the Bible, it's a universal concept.

I am not worried about Judgment Day, not in the least. Since it means so much to you... then YOU can worry about it for me, okay? It is obviously bothering you way more than it is bothering me.

The problem I have with evangelicals is that you aren't content to keep your OWN beliefs to yourselves; you belittle and condemn anyone who does not think or act the way you do, (shades of Pastor Ted) and you will only be content if you can convert the entire world to your way of thinking, and believe me, that will never happen!! NEVER.

Thank God for that.

And let me say just one more thing about the Bible: That anyone would stake their ENTIRE LIFE upon an ancient piece of propaganda, written by superstitious primitive people, with no substantiation whatsoever other than centuries-old hearsay....

That scares the hell out of me.

My last post here.

See how many things in the below links correspond with the things in this blog.

http://www.creationtheory.org/Database/DebatingTips.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager

I hate to drag the conversation back by several days, but something seemed to get missed. Did Only One Worth A Damn ever specify a non-arbitrary method for picking and choosing rules from the Bible by which to live?

He seems to think that it's only the impossible-to-live-by ones that should be discounted, which makes me think he doesn't eat pork and has to be cleansed if he's been in the same room as a woman on her period. I'm not a Christian (I'm British, you see; we get a little embarrassed by the whole thing and try to divert the conversation to preferred methods of tea-making) but I always wondered how intelligent fundamentalists (I assume they exist) took an intellectually coherent message from scripture. Anybody able to answer that without shouting "ROMANS 1:3 YOU HERETIC" or similar? I'm genuinely interested.

Twistys Presents: Kyla Cole