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No way, Abraham was an evolutionary biologist! You can't do that and not accept evolution its stupid. Woods hole did right

This reminds me of the joke headline I saw once: "Christian Science Pharmacist Refuses To Fill Any Prescription".

Religion is indeed a private matter, and should not have any bearing on hiring and firing... unless it actually becomes a critical factor in someone's job performance. The position Abraham was hired for very specifically involved evolutionary study, and Abraham refused to do the work involved.

I work as a government contractor. The Government employees that I with are idiots and they control tasking and schedules.

That doesn't stop me from being able to do my job. The only difference is I am required to get results. They have a union.

The creationists are confused! The beginning of something is not evolution, but what happens after is evolution. When a sperm penetrates the egg the evolution process begins and a baby is born in 9 months and then grows. Strike a match and the evolutionary process begins.

Would you hire an astronomer who didn't believe in the heliocentric model of the solar system? How about a chemist who thought atomic theory was a bunch of hooey?

Of course not. Why is this different? Because politicians can use religious dogma to their advantage in this case.

Yet another example of Liberals stepping on the first amendment they love so much. Hypocrisy is hypocrisy, just admit it.

The poll is asking the wrong question. I actually agree that religion is a private matter. However, it wasn't Woods Hole that brought religion into the mix, it was the fired scientist. Was the scientist refusing to do the work assigned to him because it conflicted with his religious beliefs? Was he unable to obtain funding or publish his work because it lacked scientific merit? These are both legitimate reasons for firing a scientist which on the surface could be said to be due to "creationism".

If, on the other hand, little of the scientist's work has to do directly with the study of evolution, and the scientist is productive (as a PI, obtaining funding, publishing regularly in peer-reviewed journals; as a technician, effectively doing the work assigned to you), the firing may have been out of line.

The crux of this issue is that he refuses to work on what he was hired to do. From the linked article:

'In a 2004 letter to Abraham, his boss, Woods Hole senior scientist Mark E. Hahn, wrote that Abraham said he did not want to work on "evolutionary aspects" of the National Institutes of Health grant for which he was hired, even though the project clearly required scientists to use the principles of evolution in their analyses and writing."'

If this is true, then you can throw out the religious argument completely, as this boils down to an employee's inability to do his job. Period. End of story. It's no different than if you or I or anyone else on this planet does not do the job we are hired and paid to do.

We are no longer a country of indentured servitude. If you don't want to do a job, whether because of your religious beliefs or you simply don't like it, you have the freedom to choose another job. There should be no sense of entitlement, especially for someone like Mr. Abraham, who is obviously educated enough to get a job at WHOI.

Evolution is only a theory. A good biologist should question it. This lab broke the law and will pay.

If Abraham wins this suit, I think we should require the Red Cross to hire Jehovah's Witnesses.

"Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion. God governs all things and knows all that is or can be done."
--Isaac Newton

Abraham did not refuse to do his job. He attempted to do his job better! Evolution is only 130 years old and leaves many questions unanswered. Any person who calls it fact is in fact a fool.
At its crux, this a Christian witch hunt. It has everything to do with religion and nothing to do with reason. The values under God that our country was founded on, are being assaulted by a most vile form of bigotry. One that doesn't use science as a tool for understanding His design, but as a weapon with which to destroy it.

Religion is nonsense. I believe that is enough said.

You call yourself "God's Logic"? That is awesome. Seriously.

There are many scientists who are Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc. Religion and science are not mutually exclusive. I would be very surprised if there weren't at least a few Christians working at Woods Hole, so I doubt it's a Christian "witch hunt".

Fair enough if Abraham wants to pursue research according to his beliefs. But why would he work for an institution whose goals and attitudes are so at odds with his. There must be research centers where he could more effectively follow his scientific interests. If WHOI had a department devoted to creationism or intelligent design, it would make sense, but since it doesn't, why bother?

Well Pops, thanks for sharing. You can go straight to hell then. Enjoy the roast!

How is this any different from a Christian pharmacist who refuses to sell plan B or a Muslim taxi driver who refuses to carry alcohol? People are entitle to their religious views.

Candy Man:

I see your point, but I think the comparison you make is a bit off. To do the work he was hired for, it's essential to "use the principles of evolution in their analyses and writing", as the senior scientist wrote. Evolutionary research is almost entirely what he would be doing. In your examples, selling Plan B or carrying alcohol would be only a small part of the job.

So for your comparison to work, you'd have to be talking about a pharmacist hired to work at a drugstore which primarily sold contraceptives, or a Muslim who drove a Budweiser truck.

Kushiro: What % of a job do you have to have a moral disagreement to justify being fired? Abraham was not just doing evolutionary bio.

The article here doesn't quite give all the details. Woods Hole fired Abraham after he refused to work on part of an NIH grant that involved evolutionary biology. In short, he wasn't fired for his beliefs. He was fired for refusing to do his job. There's a major difference there.
If he didn't believe in evolution, he still could have kept his job by just doing the work he was being asked to do despite his personal beliefs. Then again, creationists will do anything to avoid conducting any real scientific research......

This isn't about percentages. When you do the type of research we're talking about, the evolutionary principles are an integral part -- in fact, are the basis of -- the work. It's not like renovating a house, with separate tasks like painting, cabinetry, etc. You don't do the non-evolutionary part one day, and then the evolutionary part on another. You just can't parse out the evolutionary aspects.

And for the record, my comments were directed toward the validity of the comparison being made, not any quantification of an arbitraty threshold amount of "moral disagreement".

But, I suppose if I must answer your question, I'd say quite a bit more than one percent.

Whoops, the above post was FROM me, DIRECTED to Rick. I know that I, for one, am too dumb to work at WHOI.

Nathaniel Abraham is clearly a "born again" christian whackjob who lets his insane beliefs get in the way of his work, thus firing him was justified. If he feels evolution is wrong then I suggest he writes a paper about it and submits it to any credible peer reviewed science journal.

First- If anyone says 'go to hell' then we will just laugh at you, ok?

Guys, Hello??? Evolution is a freakin' fact! The re-known 'theory of evolution' is the 'how and why' behind the fact that organisms evolve! It is the very base of modern biology. There are TONS of study and a lot of proof and evidence for Evolution!

Oh, Evolution is 180 years old, so of course it is wrong. Obviously, that makes the 2,000 year old book that contradicts most of modern anthropology, archeology, cosmology, biology, geology, and chemistry!(Not to mention itself, and current ethical beliefs)

I'm really getting pissed at 4 things:
1. The Conservative propaganda campaign of the mis-information of Evolution as a theory and a fact.

2. The Christian Fundamentalist idea that if a small piece of Evolution is wrong, then their 2,000 year old book is right.

3. 'Once evolution is out of the way, then the Bible is right!'- No!! The Bible as taken literally contradicts most modern scientific fields of study!

4. Stupid Christians saying 'go to hell!' Guess what, there is no proof of a hell besides a 2,000 year old book which has been proven wrong on countless occassions! Even if there is, who the hell would want to go to a heaven full of Christian Bigots? What is the point of going to a heaven if you won't get to meet all your favorite people, like Alexander The Great, Bill Gates, FDR, and everyone else who went to hell for not taking the Bible literally?

Don't forget that Creationism isn't ACTUAL SCIENCE, but the devout and crazed followings of a 2,000 year old book. Creationism has no basis, evidence, or anything at all!

-if you would like sources for anything in this comment, I'll be glad to give them to you.

for starters, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Evolution_as_theory_and_fact#Biased_towards_Evolution

Alex, 100%. It scares the hell out of me that fundamentalists can be so passionate about this debate without having any clue about biology, modern science or even their own religion. I've read the bible; "God" is one of the most horrific characters to have ever graced fiction. He's depicted as a proponent of murder, racism, slavery, spousal abuse, child abuse and moral deviance. Fundamentalists need to stop taking the word of self-righteous and power hungry religious leaders and read the bible for themselves. They need to stop endorsing hatred and ignorance. They also need to study this nation's history - the U.S. is a secular nation, it is not based on Islamic or Christian fundamentals; freedom of religion equals freedom from religion. Hopefully once they get past the lessons on religion and history they'll have time to take a look at evolution as a subject; they evidently have no understanding of the topic.

"The so-called Christian nations are the most enlightened and progressive...but in spite of their religion, not because of it. The Church has opposed every innovation and discovery from the day of Galileo down to our own time, when the use of anesthetic in childbirth was regarded as a sin because it avoided the biblical curse pronounced against Eve. And every step in astronomy and geology ever taken has been opposed by bigotry and superstition. The Greeks surpassed us in artistic culture and in architecture five hundred years before Christian religion was born."

Quote By Mark Twain

Evolutionary science is like global warming science. It's more dogma than science. To wit: why does the explanation of evolution continuously change? It's because the data don't conform to the theory. If it were "settled science," these changes wouldn't be happening as with, for example, the science of planetary motion where the data do fit the theory nicely.

Refining the explanations to fit new information is what science is all about. That's not cheating, it's better science. It's not like politics where if you change your mind, it's a sign of weakness or flip-flopping.

Doing science is like doing a crossword puzzle. Sometimes you do replace "mouse" with "shrew" for "Horizontal #14: Small rodent" because it fits better with the rest of the answers. But throwing out all of evolutionary theory in favor of Biblical Creationism is like erasing your 2/3 completed crossword puzzle and trying to redo it all in Russian.

Would you go to a dentist who sincerely believed in the Tooth Fairy?

Would you fly in a plane piloted by someone who believed in levitation?

Would you fund a 4.6 million dollar Arctic expedition looking for Santa's Workshop?

Would you use a surgeon who didn't worry about his patients dying because he believes the "next world" will be so much better than this one?

Seriously.

http://sciencestandards.blogspot.com
Mr. Abraham didn't get fired because he doesn't believe in Evolution, he got fired because he refused to perform the work for which he was hired! Woods Hole apparently offered to pay him for the 7-10% of the work he felt he perform, but he rejected this. I don't care why -- he was able but unwilling to perform his job! He deserved to be fired!
Mr. Abraham also filed a complaint with the Massachusetts Discrimination Commission and they ruled against him. They felt Woods Hole was perfectly reasonable to have an expectation that an evolutionary biologist should be willing to do their job!
My butcher is a vegetarian -- who cares, I need him to cut and sell meat. As long as he does his job, he can eat whatever he wants! When he refuses, then I find another butcher and I'm sure he'll be out of business soon!

To Richard: Seriously are you saying that Hindis should not be surgeons because of their beliefs? That's racist yo!

Wow some of these comments are really embarassing.....and kind of wierd....whatever .....i dont believe in either one.....i dont believe there is god...where is the proof?...where did the bible come from?...people dedicate there lives to spending so much time in churches and praying when they could be out in the world living there lives.

thats just my opinion dont bi*ch about it

Charles Darwin was a Christian himself, he was profoundly disturbed by the scientific discoveries he made, & delayed publishing his "Origin of Species" for quite a while!

But, just as a man named Jesus of Nazareth was inspired by "God", just as Buddha was inspired by "God", Charles Darwin was a "Revolutionary thinker".

We forget that Jesus introduced some "revolutionary" ideas which were just as threatening in biblical times, as Darwin's ideas were in his times.

I personally find it a source of HOPE that "Homo Sapiens" may still "evolve" beyond seeing ourselves as members of warring "Tribes"!

Evolve to see ourselves as members of the HUMAN Race, all sharing the same tiny Planet, "Spaceship Earth" in an AMAZING Universe, knowledge of which is expanding at a breath-taking rate!

Evolution is only a theory. A good biologist should question it. This lab broke the law and will pay.

Posted by: James, DC | December 12, 2007 02:28 PM
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James, You need to find out what a theory means scientifically. I hope you say this just to create more conversation. If not, and your actually serious, then you are an idiot and a dumbass.

There are countless peer-reviewed papers published and scrutinized by the scientific community. Creationism is not science, it's philosophy....and poor philosophy at that...

The Lab failed to provide evidence that Mr. Abraham's belief interfered with his job. The Lab would also have to prove that they could not of made reasonable accommodation for Mr. Abraham's beliefs. Perhaps there is more of the case I have not heard but as it sits the Lab is guilty of violating the Civil Rights laws and is probably well aware of that fact.

If someone working at a fundamentalist church said he didn't believe in creationism or that the bible was literally true, he'd be fired. It would be considered inappropriate for someone who didn't believe in the organization's beliefs to work there. It is equally inappropriate for a research organization to employ someone who doesn't believe in science.

I share Lianne's astonishment at the quality of some of the posts here. Steve, in particular, is talking utter nonsense.

There is actually quite a good parallel between the development of evolutionary theory and the theory of planetary motions: evolutionary theory was synthesized with the new field of genetics within a decade or so (I don't have exact dates) of the replacement of Newton's theory of gravity by Einstein's General Relativity. The astronomical data *never* matched Newton's predictions perfectly, though he was brilliantly borne out in all but the details (e.g. the orbit of mercury), and it took the development of GR to get things very precisely right.

Or perhaps Steve was unaware that Newton didn't invent GR.

I had a good time reviewing each side of this debate. One side used a lot of words like "witch hunt", "assaulted", "vile", and "hell". From the other side I saw "dumbass" and "nonsense".

I personally don't believe that man should have to do physical labour. Last month I got fired from my roadbuilding job because I sat on my shovel all day, in accordance with my beliefs.

I argued all day with foreman, but couldn't change his mind. He couldn't change mine either.

Guess I'll have to find an office job. Maybe I should have done that in the first place.

No side will win the Creation vs. Evolution debate. You can't pit logic against faith and expect a victor.

As a scientist, I would certainly fire a junior who didn't subscribe to evolution, because to do so would be to deny the massive weight of evidence you accumulate during your training, evidence you need to conduct biological research.

As a minister, I would certainly fire a junior who didn't believe in the Bible, because do so would be to deny all the power of faith required to inspire that faith in others.

This guy was hired to do a job. What his religious beliefs are, are a private matter. But he chose to make his religion public and to let it interfere with his job. If he chooses not to do the job he was hired to do (no matter the reason), his employer has every right to fire him and replace him with someone that *can* do the job. His employer is not under any obligation to keep him employed for not doing his job - plain and simple.

Many scientists (myself included) are religious, but don't advertize their beliefs in the professional arena. Just as there is (and SHOULD BE) a separation of church and state, there needs to be a separation of church and profession. Anything less is a sign that you are incapable of keeping your personal and professional lives separate.