I hope the author has a great time in Europe. Also, it isn't so bad. They have a good chance of moving back in after college :)

Middlebury College's posts a reading list for parents in their guides for new students:

http://www.middlebury.edu/NR/rdonlyres/4288A7AD-9724-434B-8D41-E95A7FA52330/0/Parentsguide06.pdf

Lauer, Jeanette C., and Robert H. Lauer.
How to Survive and Thrive in an Empty
Nest: Reclaiming Your Life When Your
Children Have Grown. New Harbinger
Publications, Inc., California, 1999.

Johnson, Helen E., and Christine Schelhas-
Miller. Don't Tell Me What to Do, Just
Send Money: The Essential Parenting Guide
to the College Years. St. Martin's Griffin,
New York, 2000.

Barkin, Carol. When Your Kid Goes to
College: A Parent's Survival Guide. Avon
Books, New York, 1998

Coburn, Karen Levin and Madge Lawrence
Treeger. Letting Go: A Parent's
Guide to Understanding the College Years.
HarperCollins, New York, 2003.

Howe, Neil, and William Strauss. Millennials Rising: The Next Great Generation. Vintage Books, a division of Random House, Inc., New York, 2000.

Kadison, Richard, and Theresa Foy
Degeronimo. College of the Overwhelmed:
The Campus Mental Health Crisis and What
to Do About It.

Kuhn, Cynthia, Scott Swartzwelder and
Wilkie Wilson. Just Say Know: Talking
with Kids about Drugs and Alcohol. W.W.
Norton & Company, New York, 2002.

Looks like ther's plenty to read on vacation? Thank you Dean Hanson. Go Panthers!

tooo early for grammar check, sorry. there, Middlebury College posts - etc.

I think my parents were doing cartwheels and kicking their heels when all the kids were finally out of the house.

And Daniela, they will probably be back after they graduate, in which case you will be wondering "Geez, are they EVER gonna leave?"

What a nice piece! My parents were excited to when I left for college. So excited that they sold the house immediately (downsized) to prevent me from moving back in! Their new place only has a *guest room* as they would remind me often.

But take heart Ms. Deane, most college grads (65%) move back after graduation. In fact, I saw on CNN that 46% of the 65% of grads who moved back last year are still living at home today. (a tight job market, high housing costs, and stagnant wages are to blame)

Daniela, I'm sorry to hear you are having so much sadness with the leaving of your youngest child. But if there is a silver lining to where he ended up, Charleston is a great place to live (and visit!). And as a somewhat recent college graduate, the other posters are right, most kids either move back in with their parents upon graduation or at least move back to their hometown.

I hope you feel better soon, and the trip to Europe helps! And next time you visit your son in Charleston, make sure to try the shrimp and grits at any one the great restaurants, you won't regret it!

The trip to Europe is a great idea. My parents took off for months after my little brother left the house, and came back thoroughly enjoying life without kids-in-tow. They eat out more, go to movies more, and just truly seem to be having a really good time together. They've also gotten to know both of us as adults and become our friends as well as our parents (well, at least for me, they're still working on my brother). Empty nesters have a lot to look forward to.

Daniela, I miss you and your exclamation points on Real Estate Live. The market sure has changed since you left. Maybe if you go back it will pick up!

I know what you mean, and I feel like I understand. I feel sick whenever I think about it. I have to stop thinking about it because I know I indulge my children more when I do. I took my kids to the opening of the AGP in LA because I knew it would be a once in a lifetime thing with a short window of opportunity (and before anyone says VLI! VLI! we were going to be there anyway for a wedding--we just stayed a little later). Of course, isn't this true of all things? I KNOW it is how it is supposed to be (trust me, my brother was the inspiration for "Failure to Launch"--fortunately, he is now a mortgage paying, world traveling, responsible worker bee--it just took 35 years!) The question of did I have enough children has been on my mind for the last ten. I thought when I got married that I was a 2 kid type, and I married a 2 kid type, but then I discovered I was a 4 kid type. Too late! Gotta get a dog (this is not advice to you-no, No, NO do not get a dog--enjoy the freedom!)

Whenever we have a change, a transition, a period of growth, it is painful. Don't you hate that? If you haven't read 'a gift from the sea' by Anne Morrow Lindbergh, now might be a perfect time.

Punditmom. I also have an only who just started 1st grade--how funny. I also took a peak at your blog and I agree with your take on Katherine Harris. She is majorly scary!!!!!!!!!! And an idiot--oops! Did I just say that ;)

What a beautifully written essay about her strong emotions. And good advice for someone like me, whose "only" starts first-grade next week. I struggle every day with balancing my time with her, my time with writing and trying to ignore the growing mounds of clutter in my house and the endless guilt about not being able to manage it all.

http://punditmom1.blogspot.com

A Catholic priest, a Protestant minister, and a rabbi were discussing when life begins.

The priest said, "Life begins at the moment of conception."

The minister replied, No, life begins at the moment of birth."

The rabbi looked at them both and said, "No. No. No. Life begins when the kids move out and the dog dies."

With two little ones (oldest is 3 1/2), I'm nowhere near thinking about college (other than saving for it). I wonder how I'll be in 17 years when younger goes off to college.

My oldest starts Kindergarten on Tuesday, and still Deane's post makes me feel a mild panic about him leaving home for good. And I'm the Dad -- the one who isn't supposed to be so emotional. That Lowes commercial where the parents drop the son off at college gets to me too...

Hey Arlington Dad, how about that Home Depot commercial from about a year ago where this one boy is telling 2 others about how his dad is going to build him a tree house and how his dad can do anything. It then cuts to the dad at Home Depot telling the employee he doesn't know what he is doing. It goes back and forth between the groups (boys / father at HD) until the end when the father and the boy are having a campout in the tree house.

Gets me every time.

Father of 2 -- not to mention the new Home Depot commercial where the Dad is fixing the sink and tells his son to get out of the way (this sounds familiar...) then he reconsiders and has the kid under the sink helping him (I want to be that patient).

Boy, we're sensitive hardware guys. What about that Budweiser commercial with the woman in a bikini?

Arlington Dad, I don't know that Home Depot commercial. I'm surprised. I thought I watched too much TV. Guess not.

I prefer the Milwaukee's Best commercials on ESPN (during the WSOP) - you know, the big cans falling "Men should act like men. And beer should taste like beer."

The bikini commercials make me sad.

To parttimer: Don't apologize about taking your kids to AGP. I totally plan on taking my DD when she turns 3 to AGP in NY. My DD is only 2 but is well engrossed in all AG: Bitty baby, bitty twins, Angelina, HSH, and AG collection. We are an all AG family.

Father of 2 -- watch me get back on topic here... Do you think we'll be so well-versed in tv commercials when we are empty nesters? That trip to Europe sounds pretty good.

If it makes you feel any better, I have a strict one-piece bathing suit rule for my daughter (she's 3, but you have to start early!)

what is agp?

AGP means "agp". Its the blubbering sound you make when dropping your kids off at college. [smile]

*I took my kids to the opening of the AGP in LA*

*AGP means "agp". Its the blubbering sound you make when dropping your kids off at college. [smile]*

Huh ?????

ArlingtonDad, I think we'll be well versed in different commercials when empty nesters. Now, I can tell you all about Disney Channel, Noggin, etc. When empty nesters, it will be "All Me TV". :)

Europe does sound nice - but not now. I'll wait until the international bruh-ha-ha Bush started simmers down. Should be about 10-15 years - perfect timing.

I prefer the one-piece my my daughter (3 1/2). Wife bought her a 2-piecer but I don't like it. Coverage changes when she jumps into the pool.

I was rather shocked recently when my mother (in her 80s) told me how wrenching it was when I went off to college. I'd had no idea at the time. As one of 8 kids, the first to move out to go to college, I don't totally remember how I felt (besides being caught up in my own new challenges and excitements) but I would have thought she had plenty more kids around to keep her occupied.

By contrast when my daughter (and later my son) went off to college I felt a sense of exhilaration for them... I was worried and concerned that they have a good time and not feel lost there and all those mom things, and I did miss them, but felt solidly that this was a wonderful new stage of life for them, I was very proud of them and happy. And this when I was a single mom and didn't have either a partner or more kids at home.

I guess the fact that I so loved my time at college and felt it was one of the happiest and most engrossing times of my life had something to do with how I felt when my kids started college. Still I felt so sorry for my mom, guilty that I didn't know how she felt at the time, and a little guilty that I didn't feel the same way for my kids.

AGP = American Girl Place

They just opened a new one in LA.(http://www.americangirl.com/)

*I took my kids to the opening of the AGP in LA*

*AGP means "agp". Its the blubbering sound you make when dropping your kids off at college. [smile]*

Huh ?????

- So much for comedy.

My only son recently moved into the dorm (George Mason) after spending most of his freshman year living with me. I both looked forward to and dreaded this moment for a long time. I must say, though that I feel a great since of accomplishment at having raised him to this point, all by myself at that. I remember very clearly dropping him off at his first day of Kindergarten. It goes by so fast.

Sorry to hear your pain.
I feel you.
However, the Baby Boomer parents feel this way when their parents raised them to grow up, move out, move on, grow up, and visit often. I'm convinced the 'Baby' in Baby Boomer is how they raised/treat their 'kids' even when the 'kids' are 30. And why so many of their kids only grow up in age. Whatever what they do without hourly cell phone calls to mama and moving back in at 22 and staying until 40. No wonder Hollywood is making so many related movies...

Terrific essay today. Thanks!

Unfortunately, Daniela Deane's guest column is just so much more navel gazing...

By that I mean that by the end of column, her personal story remains exactly that - a personal story, with limited wider value.

Where is the broader significance that might help someone else going through similar experiences?

Where are the lessons learned, the insights gained, the suprises that turned out differently from what she originally expected?

Where is the context, either sociological or anthropological, about other families and children going through similar rites de passage?

(To avoid any doubt, the above are suggestions only - there is no one specific way to give a broader value to a personal story.)

It is unfortunate that Ms. Deane didn't include, and Ms. Steiner didn't insist, on expanding the column beyond the level of personal feelings and emotions and anecdote.

These are, by definition, personal, and the value of them is, similarly, limited.

To JohnQue: I thought it was because Baby boomers do everything in full force; including parenting. My parents are slightly older then the baby boomers. They were the beat neck generation. I left home at college and never returned. I think that was pretty common among my peers. We used to call the few people that moved back attic or basement dwellers. But even then the attic dewellers usually only stayed a year or so to get established. DH thinks DD should stay for a couple of years rent free to save up for a down payment for a house. In theory that is a good idea. But the job market is mobile now it is hard to imagine, she will just opt to come back to the DC area. But this failure to launch reallys seems odd. Is it really that common?

Well John Que it was rather the opposite with me... I am a boomer but my parents were very sad to see me go (my mother said she "didn't know how she was going to take it", which really shocked me when I recently heard her say that) but I was not devastated by my kids moving out at all. I had been preparing myself and them for that event for years, gradually increasing their responsibility and independence, and felt very happy to launch them (although of course I missed them too). The movies don't show reality for everyone!

Some Boomer parents are enmeshed in their children's lives. When I was a GTA at a Virginia University, I had a parent call me regarding her son's grade (!). I was stunned! Her son was in college and she was calling me to discuss a grade?! Bizarre!

To shocking: I can believe it. When I was GTA, I had both parents and coaches call me about students grades. The best thing was the university policy was not to discuss grades with anyone except the student with out the student's permission. I had more then one annoyed parent. The coaches usually got permission. They were actually really supportive of the players. Then again, they want them to be eligible to play.

There are also the famous stories of parents going on job interviews with their kids!

There is a married woman in my office whose mother still makes all of her doctors' appointments. I know because I often take the reminder phone calls from the mother!!!

To Skeptically:

I thought it was a great article. My kids are young and their leaving is the furthest thing from my mind right now (except when I see those commercials). I like the advice from parents who have "been there, done that." It's always a good idea to look ahead and learn from folks who are a few "phases" ahead of us.

What did the article have to do with balance? I thought the point about Deane having work/identity/distractions lined up for when her kids left was a really interesting point. My wife and I are juggling kids and careers, and there just may be some benefits to this that we aren't even thinking about now -- Deane points them out.

I thought it was a great article and food for thought.

Good gravy, Skepticality. Just because *you* can't see beyond the surface, it doesn't mean the story has no depth.

I happen to think Daniela's personal account is meaningful and touching. Just by relating her experience and how she's dealing with it, she's inspiring readers to share their own similar experiences.

She talks about how she's glad she has a career to go back to, and how she's planned a trip to look forward to. There are your "lessons" and "insights" -- and a solution too, come to think of it.

Inspiring commentary in this blog? That's your "broader significance" and "context." This blog is a living sociological/anthropological survey.

This isn't "Chicken Soup for the Lazy Reader." Daniela doesn't have to spell out the moral of this week's episode for her tale to have meaning.

There are also the famous stories of parents going on job interviews with their kids!

Wow, that is a way to NOT get the job.

Goods points in response to mine.
See the movie and point of 'Failure to Launch'. I graduated from college in the 1980's. Speaking of a poor labor market. My peers and I maintained apartments, thus had to feed ourselves and pay bills with our names on it (until we married or moved on solo). Today, the Baby Boomer effect on an abundance of overly nurtured kids = 'kids' that cannot maintain for themselves despite being 24 or 34. Thus, the movie(s) out today.

"Chicken Soup for the Lazy Reader"

Hilarious!

To John Que: Here is an interesting article:
http://www.transad.pop.upenn.edu/2006/05/failure-to-launch-or-launching-too.html and here is another one with a different perspective :
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-03-16-failure_x.htm

What the heck is the "beat neck generation"?!

I was wondering about "beat neck generation," too.

Maybe she meant "beatnik?"

Sorry, should have finished my thought.

So is that the generation BEFORE the Baby Boomers, immediately after WWII?

The essay shows that there are transitions in life and in parenting. Ms. Deane is in a mourning phase right now because she isn't the mom/person she was before her last child left home. There's nothing wrong with looking back and examining her role as a parent and then planning to move forward. Transitions are difficult but can be very valuable and enriching. It's good to feel and experience your emotions rather than ignore them.

Maybe not everyone is aware of the emotion that surrounds such transitions. I would be sad if I could NOT feel the sadness as well as the chill of anticipation of what's to come next in Life.

I think she made a big point when she asked herself: "Did I enjoy them enough while I had them? Or did I just make it through every day?"

The time to ask yourself this is when your kids are young, not after they've left home.

Yeah, I think she meant beatnik, but "beat neck" just cracked me up. Maybe she meant the people who weren't the beatniks but the ones who "comformed" and were beaten down by The Man.

Sorry I did mean beatnik.

I enjoyed Ms. Deane's essay as well. I'm already thinking about my daughter going to college, and she's only 10 years old! She says she wants to go to ASU because it's near home (15 miles), and I sincerely hope she does. My mother asked me to leave home when I was 17 (ditto with my three sisters; all out before we were 18). I eventually worked my way through college on my own, but I want to help my daughter until she is finished with college. She is already so self-sufficient (a byproduct of having a single mother), so I do not worry about her being spoiled and unable to fend on her own. But I do want her as well prepared as possible!

I just sent my firstborn to college last week. I still have one at home.

Regarding parents and college grades - The school will not release any information, but the info is all available on child's password-protected account. I would never discuss the grades with ANY instructor (GTA, professor, whatever), but I do want to see the grades. I told my daughter that if I don't have the password, she doesn't get any money from us.

DH and I have worked very hard for DDs education. Her job is to study hard and get good grades. If she fools around and doesn't perform acceptably, then we will no longer pay for the schooling - she will have to pay for it herself. We feel that monitoring the grades will let us know if we should step in and see that she gets help or if she is fooling around and should pay for her own education.

This may seem like helicopter parenting to many, but we see it as protecting our investment. And we don't define performing acceptably as all A's. We just don't want to see our money go down the drain. We are just trying to be realistic. There are many, many college students who skip class, don't study, and perform poorly.

Arlington Dad writes:
"I like the advice from parents who have 'been there, done that.' It's always a good idea to look ahead and learn from folks who are a few "phases" ahead of us."

I agree - it is always good to be aware of the experiences of others. That helps you fill in the gaps in your own experience, and gives you some idea of what to expect, and how to cope, with what's ahead.

But that's precisely my point - the value that you're taking away from Ms. Deane's column is, in fact, being filled in by you (and the other posters here). Not from the original column itself.

Why are these individual contributions limited in value? Because each of us individually can contribute, at best, a single data point. The diversity of these data points are limited by the diversity of the respondents.

Now look at the relative (lack of) diversity of commenters in this blog. Are we a diverse bunch, socio-economically, racially, education-wise? The answer is a self-evident no. (I have no hard data to prove this, but I would be surprised if anyone had data to disprove it either.)

Are we a representative sample of any population? The answer, again, is no - we are a self-selected sample, namely people in the DC metro area who are motivated to write comments on a particular blog during the daytime.

In short, the original column and the subsequent postings remain individual ruminations about one's personal feelings and emotions of a non-diverse, self-selected sample.

In my (reasonable) view, any such data set is not a reliable basis on which to make any sound conclusions based on the experiences of others.

Daniela,

My kids are younger, but I really enjoyed your article. I like your insight in arranging work continuity as well as some new beginnings/adventures to offset the loss of such a big lifechange. I like the way you planned the taking care of yourself, it reminds me of the planning parents do for an older sibling, to keep a new baby's arrival from totally rocking their world.

I hope you love Europe and the newfound time with your husband! And look forward to that first Thanksgiving or whenever your first family reunion will be. Your youngest will have grown so much and become even-more autonomous and assured and just impressive. He'll also bring new worlds to you, every time you touch base.

Much smaller scale, but my eldest (9yo) returned from her first weeklong sleepaway camp this summer and it was one of those moments. Suddenly this little kid, our little ward to care for, instituted a 'kaper chart' system so she and her sister could rotate dinnertime chores with us (set, clear, waitress, sweep). Suddenly so mature and responsible! And she had so many growth experiences and learned so many cool songs she was just exploding to share with all of us --- absence is a loss but reunion can be just such a wonderful aha moment, that these people you've nurtured are becoming such cool independent beings who enrich your lives more than you could have ever planned on your own.

Skepticality:

Dude, what are you talking about?
Why are you on this blog?

Skepticality, this isn't a social science journal, it's a place for people to share ideas and experiences. If you are so dissapointed in all of our individaul data points, maybe you should look elsewhere for something more interesting instead of spending your time beating up on the guest blogger and the commenters for being exactly what we put ourselves out there to be - individuals looking to share. Nobody ever said it was anything different.

Skepticality - this is a blog, it's not a newspaper article nor a scientific treatise - it's just a blog with random people commenting on random things pertaining to work/life balance. Take what people post as experiences to learn from or take it with a grain of salt - your pick.

"Speaking of" writes:

"Just because *you* can't see beyond the surface, it doesn't mean the story has no depth."

Um, you have it backwards. I've read many other articles in the popular press that avoided the trap of personal anecdotage. Those were the articles with true depth.

"Just by relating her experience and how she's dealing with it, she's inspiring readers to share their own similar experiences..."

Agreed. But see my posting above (responding to Arlington Dad) for the inherent limitations in a data set composed solely of serial personal anecdotes.

"This blog is a living sociological/anthropological survey."

Unfortunately, no. No professional sociologist or anthropologist or economist would view this blog and its comments as scientifically valid in any way.

My point is not that this guest column and its comments are devoid of all value, or that I'm too lazy to probe under the surface (!), or anything else.

My point is solely that today's guest column and its related comments are a series of personal anecdotes, which both defines and limits its value.

Regarding the grades and who gets to know them:

I pretty much paid for college myself. I had a full scholarship (merit-based, thank you) to cover tuition, and some need-based financial aid to partially cover room & board, and then I lived at home during the summers to work my butt off making enough money to pay for the difference, books, lab fees, etc. Aside from a room & board on breaks and the occasional gift of $50 of walking-around-money when Dad would drop me off, I paid for it all myself.

Sometime during junior year, I forgot to show my mother my grades- it just slipped my mind, but immediately after she demanded to see them, my father piped up. "You know, she paid for those grades herself. She doesn't HAVE to show them to anyone."

It was one of the proudest moments of my young adult life up to that point, and when possible, I think more college students should experience it.

PS: My grades were fine, I had a 3.6, and I showed Mom anyway, because I was proud of myself.

Skepticality, you are gettin' all academic on us. We don't want a PoMo lesson today.

Wow, collegemom, I would take it easy on the pressure you are clearly putting on your daughter. True, college is expensive and you want your daughter to do well, but making her college tuition dependent on her grades is a tad severe. Here's a story to back up my point: When I was a freshman I had a hard time adjusting to college life, study schedules, etc. and it showed in my grades (No A's or B's to be had the whole first year) However, my parents who were paying for my education did not try and pressure me, bribe me, or make me feel bad for not doing well. Instead, they supported me throughout, told me that as long as I tried my hardest that was good enough for them. And you know, things worked out, I never had to worry about pressure from my parents in addition to pressure from my classes, and now I am in grad school. On the flip side, I had a friend who had the same deal with his parents that collegemom has, he got bad grades his first semester and couldn't pay tuition himself, so he left school. And never went back.

If collegemom is sure that her child can take the pressure of her tuition depending on her grades, great for her. But other parents of new college freshman, beware. There is a lot of pressure to do well, make friends, not be lonely, decide what you are going to do for the rest of your life, pick the right classes, the list goes on and on. Pressure from you is the last thing they want or need, but they will remember how supportive you were for them even when things get rough (and they probably will).

blogs are by definition personal anecdotes - check out Technorati and show me a blog that isn't

Wow, all I can say is Wow. You don't think it is unreasonable to want the secret password for your daughter's grades, but rather think that it is "realistic". When I was in college, that password unlocked lots of other, personal doors (email, student health records, online class material, etc). Sometimes the best way to learn something is through failure and it just seems odd to me that you are so concerned about her failing rather than being positive about success.

It really makes me feel a bit better than my mother could not pay for or contribute to my college education, because then I never got the "if we are paying for it" BS. Sorry, but it amazes me how many parents use their money as way to basically control their adult children (and yes, a college freshman should be treated like an adult or they will DEFINITELY be moving back in! :) ).

Sorry this sounds so harsh, but support your daughter both emotionally and financially, without controlling her, which is what you are doing (even if you do not want or intend to!)

Folks, I am well aware that this is a blog. But it isn't (or shouldn't be, in my view) just any old random blog.

Why? Take a look at the masthead at the top of this web page - this is a blog sponsored and published by one of the most important newspapers in the nation.

I would hope that the editors of washingtonpost.com, as well as Ms. Steiner herself, would aspire to higher goals than merely being one more out of the dozens or hundreds or thousands of blogs out there.

As someone who's had an empty nest for the last several years, I want to share my experience that, as much as I love and miss my kids, the empty nest has been wonderful! I was a FT self-employed writer throughout their at-home years (still am), and that, along with parenting, was just about IT for me. Since our second child left for college 5 years ago, I've joined a chorus and start a book group - both deeply satisfying activities that I'd always wanted to do "someday" and never found the time/energy to do. Also, my relationship with my DH is MUCH better. There's a lightness to our relationship and we have a lot more fun together - it's like I have the energy and space now to remember why I originally loved him... feelings that got buried under the weight of day-to-day childcare responsibilities. Our kids are both graduated and working on the east coast, so I STILL miss them - but we remain emotionally very much connected and email/talk often - and it's fun to see them living their lives independently.

Not that any of this cancels out the inevitable grief and sadness of the transition periods - the years we have them close are so special and so deeply satisfying, despite all the pain and frustration of hands-on parenting. I'm not trying to discount your grief or hurry you through it in any way - just wanted to let you know that the joys of the empty nest may be a well-kept secret, but they're very genuine. Best wishes to you!

"... but support your daughter both emotionally and financially, without controlling her, which is what you are doing (even if you do not want or intend to!)"

I need to disagree with this one. That is my hard earned money and my children do not and will not receive large unconditional donations. We are already cultivating a culture of providing *grants* which is funding with terms and conditions attached. It is their first lesson about financial responsiblity and being held accountable. It's not about controlling them, it's about keeping my own boundries in check.

It seems like lazy readership to expect the Washington Post to assign significance to its pieces for you, blog or not. Use your brain- media is a conversation now, not a one-way lecture.

To collegemom

How long are you going to hold the fact that you are paying for your daughter's education over her head? Until she graduates or for the rest of her life?

Talk about strings being attached to a gift!!

I'd rather take out student loans...

The colleges I attended sent grades home to parents. My parents told me they would not pay for me to get C's. So after my first semester of straight C's, I was on my own. It was the best thing my parents ever did because I became solely responsible for my education. I had to get scholarships and show up for class. I graduated with honors. The best thing you can do for your child is to have them be responsible for his/her actions and suffer the reprocussions. That's what being an adult is all about. It isn't about earning good grades to keep mom and dad happy.

Tracy, I totally agree with you. If you paid for your child's auto insurance and they were repeatedly getting speeding tickets, wouldn't you make them responsible for paying part of it? Don't feel bad for expecting your child to work hard & achieve - there are thousands of kids out there who would kill for a funded education!

I agree with you that there should be "conditions" for lack of a better word, but I think there is a difference between if you fool around and fail out of school, we are not going to pay for it and demanding the password where the grades are kept. I have too many friends who had parents that *made* them do certain things (such as choosing a major, going to a certain university - not state v. private) that all started with "If we are paying for it..."

I think parents (not all parents!) sometimes go over the line between support and control is all. And just handing over a wad of cash is stepping over the line on the other side!

Tiffany writes:

"It seems like lazy readership to expect the Washington Post to assign significance to its pieces for you, blog or not."

Interesting. Why do you rush to label it "lazy readership" on my part, and exclude -- without even mentioning -- the possibilities that it might be "lazy authorship" or "lazy editing" on the part of the column author and/or editor?

(I'm not saying this blog represents lazy anything. I'm just surprised that you excluded two out of the three possibilities out of hand.)

Skepticality, what's your story?

I can definitely understand College Mom's desire to know her child's grades and to ensure that her child isn't spending her college years just screwing around - I remember an awful lot of kids in college who had no awareness of what an enormous gift it was to be at a great (and expensive!) school, and did nothing to further their education.

But what strikes me as odd is the feeling that she must have the secret password in order to know what her child is up to. My parents took basically the approach that mychildhasfur describes - they didn't put any pressure on about grades, but we talked on the phone very regularly and they knew from our conversations that I was going to class, working hard, what my work-study job was, what classes I liked, etc. I always told them my grades, and they were never a problem, but the focus was on what I was doing, not the grades I was earning.

And Skepticality, if you like this blog so much, you should check out Celebritology - talk about high falootin!

To collegmom, Tracey, and others who attach college tuition to high grades: does your child have a track record of taking money from you, spending irresponsibly, lying, disrespecting and disappointing you? If not, then why make their college money conditional? Sending them off to college is supposed to be a first step into adulthood and an introduction into life WITHOUT THEIR PARENTS. Staying out of their grades and trusting them to tell you what is going on in their lives will be a great way to show them how you are treating them like adults, and not like children that must be monitored.

On the other hand, if you can not trust your child to do what is right when you are not around then they probably shouldn't be going to college anyway.

Is all the money you spend on your child considered "an investment"?

"I have too many friends who had parents that *made* them do certain things (such as choosing a major, going to a certain university - not state v. private) that all started with "If we are paying for it...""

There's a fine line between directing/nudging and controlling. Nudging to keep studying etc and forcing a major are a little different.

I remember my first semster freshman year. I was studying for exams for 5 hours. I went back to my room, turned on the stereo, and rested on my bed. I heard my mother's voice say "Get off that bed. We're not spending all this money so you could listen to music. Go back to that library and study." I did. That night when I told her that story, she laughed and said it worked. Pulled a 3.93 that semester. While it might seem high-pressured, it wasn't. I just knew this wasn't a free-ride and that I was responsbile for things.

I'll bite... writes:

"Skepticality, what's your story?"

Um, I don't have one ... at least not one worth retelling here. It would be, after all, just another personal anecdote.

(No, I'm not afraid, or hiding, or out of touch with my feelings, or anything else like that. So please don't bother with any such comments.)

My interest is that sound conclusions be based on valid data: hard data where available, and soft data to the extent necessary.

I purposely didn't say what the conditions were to see what kind of response there would be. We are expecting passing grades not necessarily A's and B's. The condition is that we only pay for a class once. If you have to retake a course you pay for it. The password for email is separate than the one for grades and we don't have, or want, the email password. I don't even know about the medical records. I assume that they are kept separate as well.

My daughter did screw around in high school and underachieved and did not qualify for scholarships and actually failed 2 courses because she didn't do the required work. But, she is intelligent, worked hard in the classes she didn't blow off, and did well on the SAT's.

It is her particular history that leads us to want to monitor her a little. Would you invest tens of thousands of dollars in anything a little bit risky and NOT monitor it?

Her father and I have sacrificed a lot along the way in order for our children to get an education. We are not willing to watch it get thrown away.

I am the youngest of three and I recall that my parents were especially sorry to see me go to college. Both of my siblings went to college locally (they both lived near colleges about 30 minutes from home and came back with some regularity on weekends). But, my father was transferred in my junior year of HS, and took a one-year position within the company in order to allow me to graduate from HS while living at home. My parents sold our house in the Spring and 8 days after my HS graduation, we were on the road from Pittsburgh to Orlando where they now live. Despite the hassles of moving, starting a new life, etc, my parents were very upset that they had to take their "baby" to college after just 2 months. But, the new life helped them transition. They were fortunate in that the new house was new beginning and there were fewer constant reminders of all of us. Although we had rooms in the new house, they didn't have the history that brings some of the memories and melancholy. We all still stayed in touch, but it helped transition. I'm not saying that you need to move, but I think that you need to find ways to begin that new chapter of your life (the vacation for just them, new hobbies/pasttimes that you never had time for, perhaps some home redecorating or rennovation that you never had time for, etc) that will make looking forward easier than looking back.

To MyChildHasFur (btw, love your moniker):

For the record I haven't outlined for y'all the terms of my *grants* but for this discussion I will say that if college is indeed their intro to life *without their parents* then it should be without my money, too. My kids are welcome to go cold-turkey with my full emotional support, however if my involvement (in the way for monetary funding) is desired there will always be clearly defined perameters for all of us.

For us it is not a question of integrity, it's about it being a joint-effort.

At 30, and the youngest in my family, I saw my parent's reaction to my departure as bitter-sweet. My mom cried when she dropped me off, but by the time I went home for Christmas, there was a new addition to the front of our refrigerator:

My parents to-do list. Everything from travel to Australia, and spend New Years in NYC, to build our own vacation cabin, learn to play piano. That was 12 years ago, some things they did, and some they haven't gotten to yet, but they just take it day by day and edit, tweak and update the list whenever they feel like it.

They just enrolled in a photography class! They recommitted to thier lives, once our lives were in our control. They love us, support us and are there for us whenever we need them. Plus, they are still very young (59 and 63)! They are truly an inspiration for us kids.

Skepticality:

Why do you begin your comments with "Um"?

Father of 2, that is a great story. And that's what kids should be doing if they are responsible and respect their parents hard work enough to put in a little of their own come study time.

When I was struggling my freshman year with classes and grades, my parents knew how stressed I was and how disappointed I was in myself. My dad always made a point of telling me to make sure I had some fun, go to a party, hang out with friends, and enjoy myself, if just for a little while to take a break from stressing/studying. I think my overall happiness was more important to them than the money they were spending, and that was a much more meaningful incentive to do well, rather then "I'll be watching"!

College is a hard transition for a lot of kids. Some kids,who were the top of their high school class, may find themselves at the bottom or the middle of the class. Most kids who finish a 4 year college degree in a reasonable amount of time, figure out fairly early that skipping class, goofing around, and partying won't get them anywhere. College is a time to explore new ideas, new subjects, and basically new work/study habits. They find out what they can handle and what they can balance. Just like we all know how much we can "break" or "goof off" at work and get the job done. After all, aren't we all blogging during work time? So college is a training ground to figuring out what one can personally handle. I also don't understand why parent's object to C's in college (BTW, I had great grades in college). I C is passing and I would rather see a hard earned C then an easy A just to please my parents. I would not want to steer my child from taking difficult classes just to maintain some arbitrary grade point average. Also, even though we don't like to admit it, but it is true. Five years out of college grades hardly mean anything. Unless you are going on to academic work, professional graduate school, or something else. For the most part, grades do not mean a heck of a lot in the real world. College should be about growing up and testing out new waters. Unless my daughter was actually failing out of school or showed me some level of distrust, I would pay for school as much as I am financially able to. Gifts are what they are, "gifts." They should not come with strings attached. As far as a donation, I guess I don't see my own child as a donation. I don't pay for dance, gymnastics, or soccer lessons because I expect my kid to perform to a certain level. I pay for them to enrich my child and give them advantages that I never had.

Enjoy your freedom!!!!
Winter break and summer come before you know it.

As to grades - the password that gets you into grades also gets you to the page where you put money on your students' campus card - used for laundry, snacks, bookstore, etc..... So if you want to look and are funding that spending money you'll get the password.

However, my son is always proud to show me his grades, so it isn't an issue at our house.

I've recently started feeling proud because as a year 4 senior it looks like he'll graduate this spring -- in 4 years.

College Mom, I'm a college mom too. My son gave me his password, because I need it to go on line to pay his tuition. He calls me all excited at the end of each semester to ask me if I've seen his grades. He's doing great. He has a different password for his email and no I don't have that one. My father, my son's grandfather is helping me pay for my son's tuition. My son frequently calls his grandfather to give him updates on his grades, not because he has to but because he's aware of the generous gift he's receiving and wants to share the results with his grandfather. My son will be the first in our family to receive a college degree. My father is over the moon with pride and I'm very proud of my son's willingness to share his grades and experiences with his grandpa.

>>> Her father and I have sacrificed a lot along the way in order for our children to get an education. We are not willing to watch it get thrown away. >>>

I agree that you should not watch her throw it away. She is an adult and therefore should take responsibility for her own education. If she had issues in high school, why continue to provide an education she clearly doesn't want. You and your husband should save for retirement and enjoy life. You raised her and she is an adult now.

My husband and I are not saving for our children's college education (they are a long ways from college). They will have to earn good grades and get scholarships and financial aid, just like mom and dad. We will be livin' large during retirement instead.

Longtime reader...firstime poster. I find this blog fascinating and eye-opening as a 25 year old whose next 5 years probably hold marraige and *maybe* a first kid. I think alot about the things discussed here and wonder how I'll handle them when its my turn. However, I've never been compelled to comment until today.

My mom has been a SAHM my entire life (Dad worked, still does) and became an empty-nester 8 years ago when I (the oldest of 3)went off to college halfway across the country. My siblings followed within the next few years and my parents were totally "kid free". They absolutely took advantage with more frequent vacations, more together time for the two of them, etc., which I love seeing.

But, eventually I became more aware of the fact that while my Dad still goes to work everyday and derives a huge amount of success, recognition and admiration through his job, my Mom has become more aware than ever that her kids were "it" and she doesn't have any other mechanism to give her the kind of praise and ego-support that a job does.

She's found lots of ways to fill her days and do both fun (book clubs, etc.) and really meaningful (volunteering, etc.) activities that give her a nice sense of balance and belonging. But even so, it makes me so sad to think that my mom might feel "worthless" or somehow less important now that we're all out of the nest (obviously, that couldn't be less true, at least for me).

Watching this whole evolution of my Mom's role - particularly as I see my own transitions ahead - makes me feel two things VERY distinctly:

1. I love my mom even more for staying home with us...she sacrificed then (quit her job before kids) and as I saw later, she sacrificed down the road when we didn't "need" her anymore and she was left - literally - with an empty house. Wow.

2. Even when I think that I coulnd't do it (SAH), I think about how much I love her for doing it and how it shaped our family and my childhood, and that alone makes me want to do that for my kids someday.

Skeptically, I think you and some of the other commenters simply have fundamentally different interpretations of what the blog "should" be. You seem to judge according to scientific standards, and so you criticize the blog as not providing "a reliable basis on which to make any sound conclusions based on the experiences of others," because neither the article nor the audience provides the type of unbiased, data-focused analysis you would like to see, which you seem to believe is a "higher goal" that the blog should aspire to.

I think a number of people, me included, see the value in the blog precisely BECAUSE it does not attempt to be scientific, objective, or broadly representative of the population. A truly objective, scholarly review on "coping with transitions from childhood to adulthood," for example, would be of minimal help to me, because there are so many cultures, so many income levels, so many different issues (work, college, gender issues, financial issues, cultural expectations, etc.). Such a study might give me a better holistic sense of the issues, but 95% of it would be irrelevant to my life.

On the other hand, Daniela and many of the contributing bloggers here ARE in very similar situations to my own. This makes the blog more useful to me, not less, because the issues raised are much more likely to be issues I will deal with myself. So, for example, you suggest that Daniela's article is weaker because she doesn't propose solutions; but to me, just hearing what her feelings are is helpful, because it provides insight into what I might experience (for example, the exhiliration to go back to work is something I hadn't thought of). So what you see as a criticism of the limits of the blog I see as a strength. (I also note that these entries are 300 words; I suspect the articles you found helpful are significantly longer.)

This blog is not pretending to represent a scientific approach (as compared to, say, that Forbes piece we discussed last week) -- nor, as you pointed out, would that be appropriate in this context. But I disagree with your conclusion that that makes it somehow unhelpful or less than it could be.

"If she had issues in high school, why continue to provide an education she clearly doesn't want"

You don't know what the issues were and you don't know she doesn't want it. With their help she probably can still turn things around.

Skepticality--I also think you need to rethink why you read here. This blog has been (at least for the several weeks I've been reading it) written by a columnist that starts with a story/idea about some facet of balancing work and home, some basic conjectures and some conclusions and then becomes an open forum for discussion of the topic by the readership. One of the positives from this is that it is participatory. Unlike typical editorials, columns or articles, the audience has a chance to respond and rebut. I, for one, prefer the general "lighter" side of the blog rather than the heavily weighted ideals and analysis for which you seem to criticize this blog. To each his own.

I am also surprised that almost daily there is someone who chimes in with some sort of complaint about the topic. There are dozens of blogs on WashPost. Why participate when you don't like the topic? Just move on to the next one, skip this day's topic in that particular blog and move on. Clearly dozens of readers are enjoying the topic and sharing valuable experiences and lessons. Why not just leave the topic to them? When it comes to raising children, balancing work, family and life in general, there are relatively few scientific and analytical studies that apply to more than a select few. The point is that families are incredibly diverse and that everyone takes that little bit of this and little bit of that to make their personal situation work. Anecdotal experience from other families in similar situations frequently is more helpful than studies of families that don't parallel yours.

I do not believe in having the password and checking on my kid that way. I feel it is a bit of invasion of privacy somewhat like reading a kid's diary... and shows a complete lack of trust. I ask my son for his grades at the end of each semester and he tells me. I expect him to be an adult that way and not lie to me. Checking via password to me smacks of assuming your kid lies. And yes my son goofed around in high school, we had a lot of trouble with that. But I found out that if you try these sorts of mechanical things to check up on them rather than expecting forthright communication, it encourages the kid trying to "beat the system" more than it encourages the behavior you are trying to enforce. I'm not saying we did everything the best way, we had a lot of long talks and on again off again improvement. But gradually he matured and I feel that treating him as a person I respect and expect to behave honorably was the best way in the long run.

Laura--seems to me that you and I are on the same wavelength. I typed my response, posted it and read yours and was amazed that you echoed my own sentiments.

To those parents out there who feel the need to so closely monitor your ADULT sons' and daughters' grades and to hold money over your offspring's heads as a method of enforcement: this could backfire in a number of ways...

I know a mother who feels the same way and cannot understand why colleges don't allow parents access to their ADULT children's grades. Money was a non-issue in this woman's case: her daughter had full scholarship.

The mother's desire to micromanage her daughter's life has resulted in the daughter completely cutting off contact with her family. The daughter did not invite the mother to her wedding last year, and she has not had any communication with her parents in more than a year. The young woman explained to her grandmother that she had grown weary from the incessant power struggle with her mother over decisions in her life, including her political views. It's a terribly sad situation that the daughter had to cut off contact with her family to gain a sense of independence.

To DadWannaBe -- yep, I did exactly the same thing! Good laugh for the day (before my exciting 3+hr flight to TX this afternoon -- joy).

"My husband and I are not saving for our children's college education (they are a long ways from college). They will have to earn good grades and get scholarships and financial aid, just like mom and dad. We will be livin' large during retirement instead."

I don't want to offend anyone but I really don't understand this attitude. A parent does not OWE their child a college education and certainly some people can not afford it. But why make your kids work harder to fund their education just because you had to. After all if you received any financial aid or scholarships, you did receive funding. It just wasn't from your family directly. Americans talk about wanting to foster independence. It seems more like being in it just for themselves rather then fostering independence. I guess I just think that is a sad attitude to have.

>>>You don't know what the issues were and you don't know she doesn't want it. With their help she probably can still turn things around.>>>

True, sorry that wasn't very fair of me. But, I only say this because as a former GTA (and my husband is a professor at a Virginia University), I have seen so many students behave so poorly and waste their parents' hard earned money. For many college students, college is a non-stop kegger and orgy. It is like once the kids break out on their own, they go completely crazy. And I know, that parents reading this are saying, "Oh not my kid!"

I guess I am too jaded by my experience with college kids.

Lieu, I have to agree with you on that one. The way I figure it, the parents have from the day they learn they're expecting to start saving for college. The kid, even if they get a job at 16 isn't going to be able to save much. Financial aid is not as readily available these days either. If you really can't afford to pay for your kids' college fine, but don't kid yourself into thinking you're doing them some kind of a favor. My son is working for his spending money and building a savings account, but he doesn't have to worry about tuition or room and board and yes, since I chose to bring him into the world I figure I owe him the best start in life I can afford.

In short, the original column and the subsequent postings remain individual ruminations about one's personal feelings and emotions of a non-diverse, self-selected sample.
In my (reasonable) view, any such data set is not a reliable basis on which to make any sound conclusions based on the experiences of others.

Aack. How about just reading this for the sake of enjoyment? If I wanted a sociological or anthropological thesis on empty nesters, I would not be looking for it here.

Note--this is not a comment on CollegeMom's situation, merely another perspective on the "let them fail" side.

I was very fortunate that my parents were willing to invest in my future even when my grades were poor. I had an easy time in high school and got excellent grades without having to work that hard and having a *LOT* of extracurricular activites. I got to college at The Johns Hopkins Univ and found that "urp" about 75-80% of the students in my freshman class were also top 2% of their high school classes. Even coming from a good high school (Pennsylvania public schools were excellent), I suddenly was competing against a significantly more advanced class of students. I actually had to work in my studying. I didn't do so well in my first two years and was on academic probation. Now, my parents looked at the long run. They made me come home, take classes nearby at a large public college near home, work to earn money for everything except room and board (I paid for those classes at the local college where I fortunately got resident rates), before they let me go back to JHU. I have to say that the combined embarrassment and experience made me a stronger person. I learned that everything has consequences, that success isn't just given to you and that if you don't succeed with what you are given, that you'll have to work harder to get back to where you were. I am also extremely grateful for the opportunities, gifts, and luck that I've had (many people don't get the second chance that I had). I went back, got my grades back up, graduated from JHU with a solid GPS after five years and am very successful now.

I thank my parents regularly for the life that they gave me and the chances that they gave me. I like to think that I give back to them by both my success and be returning many of "favors". I do a lot to take care of them these days and despite the fact that they are still better off than me, I don't begrudge a single cent that I spend on taking care of them when I can. My siblings and I are getting ready to take them on a anniversary cruise next year for their golden anniversary.

I self funded my college - scholarship for most of it, loans for the rest undergrad, all loans graduate school. My parents (young themselves) have neither the financial ability to help me, nor the ability to save for their own retirement. I didn't show them grades because I had to - but I did send them because I wanted to show them how much the support they gave me was appreciated. However, my grandparents - who gave me an allowance (minimal, but very appreciated) while I was in undergrad school - got my grades in exchange for continued funding of my living expenses, and fully expected them for grad school, even though I wasn't getting any money from them at that point. There's still a part of me (years later) that resents having to 'turn in my chit' as my grandfather termed it to get another semester's allowance. Oversight is one thing - micromanagement just leads to resentment.

*To those parents out there who feel the need to so closely monitor your ADULT sons' and daughters' grades and to hold money over your offspring's heads as a method of enforcement: this could backfire in a number of ways*

ADULTs pay their own way through life. More parents should let their children know that they will pay for their education, but not for their partying.

I grew up a rather pampered child. My children have a rather pampered life as well. I would not let my children starve to get through school, as I did. (I had a $5 a week food budget. I could never afford a meal plan.) But when they get older, I will tell them what you said. :-)

I do think they have to be serious about their education and own the process, not to view it as a right that mummy will pay for. There are a lot of people in college today who have no business being there. Not every child wants or should go to college. There is no shame in trades such as plumbing or mechanic. Many of my former students should have taken this path instead of wasting their money and my time. I think they would have been much happier.

I see something of generational gap in some of these posts. The younger folks see college students as adults while a lot of us older folks still see them as children. I sure thought I was an adult at 18, but my 19 year-old son seems like a baby to me. I will just say to the parents of young children; you will feel the same protective instincts toward your 18-year-old as you do now toward your 1-year-old. You have to force yourself to let go, but emotionally they'll always be a baby in your eyes.

Skepticality -- there is a more practical solution: submit your own entry to be a Tuesday guest blogger. This way, there is a chance to see what you would consider a more balanced, statistically sound post.

Tracey(thanks for the kudos on the moniker)and collegemom: I fully respect your decision to fund your child's tuition the best way you see fit, obviously you know them far better than an anonymous poster. However, I am offering my experiences as a (fairly) recent freshman just to make you aware of how your child may feel once they leave home. Your children just need to know they have your full support no matter what, and even if they start to fall behind. If your support is manifested in a monetary way, you should find other ways to let them know you are with them.

Also, there is a HUGE benefit to graduating without any outstanding debts. With the cost of housing, gasoline, and other expenses increasing while the pay for entry-level jobs stays abysimally low, graduating student-loan free will give your child a huge advantage over peers who are stuck with monthly payments. This may allow them to take jobs they love rather than the high payers, and move out of the house rather than crashing with Mom and Dad. So many of my peers fell into that trap, and some are still there ten years later!

>>> This may allow them to take jobs they love rather than the high payers >>>

If you *love* than you should *love* the low pay and adjust your lifestyle accordingly. A parent should not have to flip your martini major lifestyle, especially if you had the choice of majors. Low paying entry jobs are a result of picking a major without thinking about supporting yourself.

collegemom: I don't think it was you. It was another poster who said their parents would not pay for Cs, which is a passing grade.

Laura and DadWannaBe:

I accept your point: that anecdotes from people like you is more likely to be relevant, and interesting, to you.

But here's the problem in limiting the diversity in this way: You run the risk of merely reinforcing what you already hear/know/see/believe.

(Off topic, but in a related vein: For a political angle, see the numerous articles on why Fox News is so popular with conservatives in the United States.)

Psychologists have shown time and again that the human brain is very, very good at fooling itself into believing what it wants to believe, even if it means disregarding empirical evidence to the contrary.

No, I am not suggesting that you are Fox News conservatives, or that you're fooling yourselves, or anything else about you - I don't know you well enough to make such a judgement.

What I am saying is that there is an inherent risk in limiting your exposure to mainly people who are like you. As long as you are aware of this inherent risk, and can take steps to counteract it where appropriate, I have no quibble or argument with you.

And for the record, nothing I have written requires, or even suggests, that we make OnBalance a scholarly journal.

-Also, there is a HUGE benefit to graduating without any outstanding debts.-

I agree. Another incentive for the child to do well.

I still don't see why so many of you think it is wrong to say that we will only pay for a class once. Nowhere did I say we were requiring anything other than passing.

Skepticality -- there is a more practical solution: submit your own entry to be a Tuesday guest blogger. This way, there is a chance to see what you would consider a more balanced, statistically sound post.

Well, considering how interesting Skeptically has shown him/herself to be, I am afraid that that blog would be a complete snore.

Another thought. When I graduated from college, my parents gave me their 8-year old car for a graduation gift and bought a new car for themselves. This was important for several reasons. The old car drove fine (although wasn't the best on gas mileage) and being an under-25 yo male, the insurance on the older car was much cheaper than the insurance would have been had they bought me a new car. I also lived in downtown Baltimore which would have made the insurance on a new car even higher. I stayed in my joint house (we had a 4BR house shared by four friends) and with my cheap (free) car, cheaper insurance and cheaper rent I saved a lot of my $26K salary. Two years later when my car was really ready to go, I had saved up enough that I could put a real down payment down on a car and when I was ready, I could afford to move out on my own to my own apartment. All on my terms and without some of the oppressive debt that some new students face.

At first I was envious of my friends with new cars, but I have to say that 2 years down the road, I was very happy that I had spent the first 2 years with no car payment, lower insurance and rent. I think it got me off to a much better post-college start than a nice car would have. Something to think about for those of you with sons graduating college. You may find this a good lesson for the when they graduate.

In my opinion, you cannot overate the empty nest. You can pursue interests you've put off for years, you can get reacquainted with your mate, you don't have to cook dinner every evening, you can pick up and go whenever you want without a major adjustment to schedules. In effect, you get your pre-children life back with the added bonus of additional wisdom. What's not to like?

I sent all my children off to college without knowing their passwords, or even requiring them to sign the release form that universities and colleges require in order for parents to see grades. I also pay for their tuitions (what's not covered by scholarships, obviously) but they are required to come up with their own spending and book money. I would never make their academic careers conditional upon performance. So far, it's worked.

Why? I have a strong faith in the intelligence and abilities of my children. They will figure things out and learn what they need to succeed. That, after all, is part of growing up and what most of childhood is: an adventure on becoming an adult. Do I think this works? Yes. One of my children managed to get on academic probation in his sophmore year. Of course, I didn't know because I didn't have access to his grades. He did a self analysis, told me and decided to take a semester off. It was the best decision he could have made; he's now back at another institution pursuing a degree in mechanical engineering. It simply took him a while to figure out what he is meant to be.

Now, obviously, I've got the economic wherewithall to approach my children's college education this way. Many families do not. I think it is important for each family to discuss what the value of education is to it and make certain that everyone is working on the same program. Some families see a college education as a means to a good paying job; others see education as an intellectual exercise; others see it as a way to socio-economically better themselves. The important thing is that the college students should be as much a part of the family approach and decision to education as the parents. Otherwise, the students are not fully participating in their education.

Drifted into the philosophical vein here. Sorry. But, empty nest is good and towards which all parents (and children) should be aspiring. The house may seem overly quiet and unusually tidy at first, but this is good.

Collegemom - I doubt posters have a problem with your one time class policy - makes sense to me. Of course if a child is not serious about college then the parents shouldn't waste their money on that child. The posts seem to generally refer to parents using their money as a stick through which to micromanage their children in college. I would definitely have been resentful if my parents said - you must do x if you want us to pay for college. Isn't it the responsibility of every parent to help their children succeed in life to the extent they are able? I don't agree with the current financial philosophy that says - focus on retirement not on your child's education. It's not like you know for sure that you will live long enough to enjoy retirement - your investment in your child's education will live long after you.

I still don't see why so many of you think it is wrong to say that we will only pay for a class once.

I think it depends on the class. If you are taking basketweaving 101 and fail, then I can understand your refusal to pay for it again. But if the class is really difficult, and the student has really done her best, and still fails, well, I would have no trouble paying for the class twice.

Egads, Skepticality, let it go already. Whinging about what non-diverse, short-sighted navel gazers we all are isn't going to garner you a lot of sympathy, would be my guess. And assuming that we are all here to "draw sound conclusions" is a big assumption - I don't come here expecting to find any sound conclusions about anything, and my guess is not a lot of other people do either. It's an interesting, sometimes edifying, sometimes infuriating diversion, and that's it. So sorry it doesn't live up to your oh so high standards, but anonymous internet forums rarely do, no matter what publication hosts it.

Skeptically, you make a very good point about how limiting yourself to others like you can be a negative. I couldn't agree more. My only comment is that I just don't expect that kind of diversity or breadth from a blog. So personally, I get my news from a variety of newspapers (WaPo, NYT, WSJ, Balt. Sun) and various magazines; I go to blogs to for more specific, less objective discussions on topics of interest, and I participate in those where I find the discussions useful and pertinent to my life. But that's just me.

to Collegmom, no, you never said you expected anything more than passing grades. Some posters misread your first post and have run with it. I've also told my son, that if he fails a class he'll have to pay out of his own pocket to take it again. I don't think that's unreasonable. He's a smart kid and if he makes even a minimal effort he should pass. That's all I ask. I'm not rich and the money I spend on his tuition is a sacrifice for me. I just want him to do his best with the opportunity he's been given. No problems so far.

Do you have any idea how hard it is to fail in college???? Colleges are (mostly) run like businesses - they don't want your child to fail out, because then they will stop getting tuition from you. You have to NEVER go to class, do assignments, etc. Geez, sounds like most of you "I owe my kid an education" parents were probably the same folks who wanted to institute "no win-lose" athletic games. Then everybody wins and little Timmy doesn't get his feelings hurt!

" I don't agree with the current financial philosophy that says - focus on retirement not on your child's education. It's not like you know for sure that you will live long enough to enjoy retirement - your investment in your child's education will live long after you."

I don't even have a problem with this if there has to be a choice made between retirement or college. I just don't like hearing that parents actively choose not to save or use all their money to live high on the hog in retirement (like the one poster said today). To me that is a just a wee bit selfish. Why do people have kids if they don't want to give them the best possible start in life?

"If you *love* than you should *love* the low pay and adjust your lifestyle accordingly. A parent should not have to flip your martini major lifestyle, especially if you had the choice of majors. Low paying entry jobs are a result of picking a major without thinking about supporting yourself."

Well, not all of us chose to be investment bankers or corporate lawyers. Thank god some people out there want to do those things, the rest of us are off the hook.

Unfortunately, there are certain majors out there that are only profitable at the graduate level, which often is not mentioned to the undergraduates who choose that major. Biology majors, for instance, are not paid well at all in entry level jobs, and only get paid a respectable amount at the Master's level or higher. Think $22,000 a year, in a city like DC. Practically unlivable! If you had an internship or lab job in undergrad, you may fair a little better, may 25-30K. So I highly doubt all the Biology majors out there who picked this major because they love animals, the environment, or helping people did so with "Martini major" in mind, the work is too hard and doesn't leave a lot of time for partying. And biology grads certainly are not living rock star lifestyles afterwards. They are pursuing what they love, are willing to be poor for many years because of it (I'm speaking from experience) but couldn't have chosen this extremely important and underpaid field with the burden of student loans.

And besides, once the child graduates, I think they should be on their own, and NOT move back in with Mom and Dad (but that will be between me and my child, I don't care what others do). I just said it happens. Also, no one loves low pay, they love the job that is attached to the low pay. Two completely different things.

When my younger brother went away to college, he was not ready to study. He spent two semesters partying and got horrible grades. My parents did not have his password nor demand to see his report card, but somehow, they knew he had spent a year goofing off. They had put away a certain amount of money for all our educations, and told him that his amount was X, he had just frittered away Y amount of it, and he should shape up and get a job, support himself for a while, and then either go back to school when he was ready or take the rest of the money (and do whatever he wanted to do with it) when he turned 30. He was not really into school so he got a job as a help desk guy. He was good at that, and after a while, his job offered to pay for his school, and after a few years, he did get his degree. He also had gotten several promotions in the interim and was making a very nice living. On his 30th B-day, my parents gave him a check for the remainder of the money that they would have spent on his college eduction, and he used it as a downpayment on a house.

>>> Do you have any idea how hard it is to fail in college???? Colleges are (mostly) run like businesses - they don't want your child to fail out, because then they will stop getting tuition from you. >>>

I failed many students with no problems from the department or dean. The students who came for help during office hours, I did not fail because they actually improved in the class. Again, taking responsibility for your college education pays off. Colleges are becoming a big business, but like business there is competition so if one student fails out, there are plenty of others who want that spot and will probably work harder.

What a nice guest blog - I really appreciate the perspective!

Okay, Laura, this is starting to get very "Twilight Zone". I was again thinking along the same lines when you posted. I won't repeat you (although I also add Yahoo! News to my list of sources), but it was funny.

Skeptically--although I agree with your point about the dangers of limited focus from anecdotal evidence based on similar lifestyles, I think the more important point is that what you are addressing can be found from other sources. Just go up and look at the reading list that Fo3 posted at the top of the blog. Those resources are out there in fairly large volume. What this blog serves to do is focus on the side that those references do not, the shared anecdotal experience that can add perspective to what is presented in more analytical studies. Since there is a plethora of sources for what you are advocating, this blog is a place to discuss rather than just absorb additional information to augment those studies that you are looking for.

ADULT: legal status upon reaching 18. That given, I do understand that some people behave like children all their lives...

And I understand that parents do not want to subsidize partying or pay for failed classes. But if you treat your offspring like children when they are adults and tie their shoes for them until they leave for college, of course there is a good chance they are going to behave wildly the first time they are away from parental supervision. They are still behaving like children because that's the way they have been treated.

I was an "adult" at 17; I had to work and put myself through college. I did not party in college; I did not fail classes. My mother didn't care what sort of grades I got, but I still graduated with a 3.4 GPA, while working two and three jobs and carrying as many as 21 credits in a semester (I rarely carried less than 15).

It's all a matter of perspective, really...I never saw college as an opportunity to extend childhood at my parents' expense. College was the opportunity to escape poverty.

Great story on letting go. It was so hard for my mom to let her baby go- and it was exactly what I needed to finally grow up and not be the baby anymore!

I found it much harder when I came BACK for vacations. My mom expected me to fit back into my baby mold and I was ready to be treated much more as an adult. Over the years I've learned to be compassionate and train her to treat me as an adult (hey I'll always be her baby and we both accept it), but we had a few big fights afterwards.

I hope your re-transitioning goes much smoother without as many issues.

In response to the kids staying at home forever deal- parents paying for college, added into huge loans most people are indebted to directly out of college GREATLY extends the "growing into adulthood" phase. While there's always limits, it makes a lot of sense for most kids to move home right after school for at least a few months.

My mom constantly tells me it's ok to move back in and I tell you it's the LAST thing I'd ever resort to. I worked hard to prove to myself I can make it as an adult, and I don't want either of us to fall back into our old patterns (that and stubborn southern pride).

As usual, my kids are smarter and wiser than I...

Son #1 is a 15 yo rising junior in high school (two years to go...) and spent several weeks at a math program this summer. This was his first time away from home for an extended period, and he's not the fearless explorer type, so we crossed our fingers...

Most of our contact this summer consisted of cryptic two-word responses to our emails, and a couple of brief phone calls home.

When he returned, he and I had a chat about how the summer went (amazing, life-changing) and I told him how I missed our conversations. I admitted that we should have established some ground rules for contacting home before he left so as to prevent hurt feelings on our end.

Half-jokingly I asked, "Didn't you even MISS us?" My son: "No, Mom. I wasn't getting away from you guys, I was running TO something new."

He not only launched, but he flew right past me. Now it's time to pull my wings out from the closet and keep up.

It's pretty obvious that Skepticality feels edified by coming here to "intelligently" rag on this blog. Are you bored and lonely too?

You play yourself off like you're an unemployed social scientist or something, and that's why I find it so ridiculous that you would approach this forum with such inappropriate tools of measurement, such as, oh you know, empirical data sets, double-blind control groups and whatever else floats your boat. Hello? Does this look like a scientific study for you to critique?

Why don't you just pull out your microscope and look at the sky. It might give you similar results.

"I faile