Maybe women in the office won't object if I keep some of my frozen sperm in the freezer next to their food.

This is an excellent topic. It's a more important discussion than whether people do or do not want to breast feed. It speaks to the problem of people who want to breast feed and can't, mostly people like everyone I grew up with--blue collar women who usually have to work.

These women could have been my sisters, my friends, or my aunts. I find it really sad that my nephew is 21 years old and things still haven't changed that much. When he was born my sister went back to work 6 weeks later and had to stop breastfeeding due to the inability to pump. She worked in a factory on a line and while I believe that the people she worked with would have covered for her while she pumped, I don't know where she would have pumped, probably in the dirty bathroom amidst cigarette smoke. When I worked in the factory, many women had children, but not many of them breastfed. I don't know what the solution is, but I know that it involves all of us, not just the girls on the line or the ones taking your order at Starbucks. This article has made me sadly unoptimistic about women's rights.

Jon--I'm not sure why you felt the need to be as offensive as you could. Maybe insecurity, maybe you just don't understand why this topic matters to women. But stop and think about what you said.

Breast milk IS food, and it makes sense to have it in a fridge with other food. Sperm is about the act of reproduction. A little bit harder to justify at work, don't you think?

Sometimes it just isn't about YOU, honey. Try to see a different world.

I just finished pumping for my second child - I went a year with both. In both cases, I had to make an effort to establish a place at work for me to breastpump that was private. Nothing hurts pumping more than being nervous or uptight, so both times I was able to find an empty office (not a cube, that just doesn't work). For my first, I was able to use the empty office for the first year, for the second, I was kicked out after 6 months, and spent the remainder of the pumping time in my car. I did go to my manager and to HR and to building management, but there were no empty spaces. And, this is one of the largest companies in the world, so I know I'm not the first to ask.... They suggested the bathroom - to which I replied, would you eat your lunch in there - so why would I pump my son's lunch? :) The car was not ideal, but hey, it worked. Bottom line, I had to ask, I had to look and I had to come up with my solution. Don't be embarrassed to ask, and don't back down if you want to breastpump. And, if you don't or can't breastpump, don't let other make your feel guilty - everyone has their own unique circumstances and you have to do what works best for you.

There are bathrooms and then there are bathrooms. I pumped when I worked in a very small office - 4 people. Our bathroom was a handicap accessible one for a single user. We also had a good cleaning company so it was and felt clean. Because of the accessible size I was able to leave a comfortable chair in the room (noone was using a wheelchair at the time). It felt more like a lounge set up.

I have also seen people book the conference room (you may have to be willing to be bumped) but I see that better than your car (not comfortable and not an option if you use public transit) or sitting on a stall.

To anon at 8:56am, you had only one bathroom and you took it for 20-30 minutes a few times a day to pump??? I think that's a little rude. What if somebody needed to use it for bathroom purposes?

I've got no problem giving pumping women the time and space to pump. However, I would want a clear policy whereby the time spent by the woman pumping is either made up before and/or after work, during lunch hour, etc. Nobody - not pumping women, smoking men, etc. - should get "free" time from the office.

there were four of us I asked first.

Yea, those pumping machines really should come with a stop watch or something...

Because those smokers really make it a habit to make up their out of the office. Come on.

Jon, you got such an early start on your attacks on working women this morning.

I don't understand why people who are hostile toward people trying to earn a living and be the best parents and they can participate in this blog. It appears that they hang out here just to take digs at people and play the victim. It would be nice if I could actually find a discussion among these comments instead of attacks and defenses. I don't want to debate whether some whiners in the office like it when moms pump. I want to talk about how we can find a good work/life balance. But it's clear I won't find it here.

To "pump supporter", I suspect you work in HR. Keep your people staring at their monitors at all costs!

Seriously, I generally take work with me to read when I go pump. It's just become part of my day; when I know I have something to read for work I set it aside to do during my pumping time. When's the last time you saw someone who was outside smoking doing work?

I pumped for a year for my first child, and am about to start back to work part-time (and pumping) for my second. Kudos to all of us who have managed to continue nursing children despite needing or wanting to continue paid employment. Thought I'd just use this space to offer a couple of tips to new pumpers.

1. You don't need to waste time washing the "horns" and other pumping equipment after each session at the office. Just put them in a clean ziplock bag and store the ziplock in a small cooler or insulated lunchbag, along with your pumped milk & ice pack. Any residual milk on the equipment will stay clean and fresh for your next session.

2. Having trouble keeping up your supply? Sneak in an extra pumping session before you leave every morning. When your child wakes up, nurse first, then shower, then pump for just 5 minutes while you eat breakfast. That little extra daily stimulation will boost your supply.

3. If you have a private office where you can pump, buy a hands-free pumping kit so that you can keep right on working while you pump.

Hope these tips help someone. Anyone else have practical tips to share?

So, are you going to make up the time you wasted reading and posting to this forum on your lunch hour today, or after work? Or will you be coming in early tomorrow?

As long as everyone gets their work done, it's none of your business how or when it gets done or whether someone took a (gasp!) 10 minute break to pump...or smoke... or read a blog online. If the work is NOT getting done, that's for the person's supervisor to address.

So stop being such a jerk!

I'd just point out not to feed the trolls.

While going into a restroom or unused conference room to pump works for those women in an office environment, what about women in service industries? One of my friends is a waitress, and obviously she has no time or opportunity to pump during her work time.

For most of us professionals who don't punch a time clock the time pumping is no different than a long lunch or surfing the net (participating in blogs maybe), etc. As long as we get our work done. The issue is more for jobs that have very strict work times. This is were the need for formal scheduled breaks come in (hey Fo3 from yesterday's blog requiring pumping breaks - government policy that might help) and yes if it is longer than the breaks others get you may have to start earlier or work later, but the key is still allowing women to pump.

>>> Maybe women in the office won't object if I keep some of my frozen sperm in the freezer next to their food.>>>

Your comment is very funny. You can't really be seriously comparing breast milk and sperm?! The proper analogy would be if a woman was freezing her eggs in your work fridge, not breast milk. Are you really that paranoid about breast milk? You know you are teetering on crazy, right?

To Jon You must obviously not know any women or you would not post such a comment.With that attitude you will probably not form any relationships with women in your lifetime.

Jon obviously doesn't understand what an analogy is - and his negative weird comment isn't worth anyone's time.

There needs to be federal legislation requiring that all employers provide nursing mothers with reasonable breaks to pump, at least during the first year of their baby's life. It's incredibly important for the mother, the baby, and overall public health (an issue that the ignorant and uptight don't understand). There will be opposition from employers, but with a growing body of data showing huge benefits from breastfeeding, full access is inevitable. Employers should step up and own the solution now. The inequalities of the pumping accomodations for professional versus working class women only serve to deepen and continue the health disparities in our society. Are we going to make the next generations of children suffer for that?

Look, there are a bunch of posters here who seem to think that new mothers should get 3 months of paid time off to recover (regardless of annual leave/vacation/sick time/etc.) and think that pumping should supercede working.

Yes, workplaces should make it easier for women to pump. They should have special rooms. They should be given a flexible schedule so they can pump. However, they should NOT be given free time to do it. If their job requires 8 hours of worktime per day, anything that takes away from that should be replace before or after. Just like smokers/bloggers/etc. should have to make up the time.

Breast milk is how babies got their food for thousands of years. NOT breast feeding is a recent anomaly. It's really that simple. Every effort must be made to ensure that babies receive the best, most natural source of nutrition. Even simple animals are allowed to suckle without their mothers being constantly harassed.

We are all contributors to this inhumane, materialistic society that now makes it very difficult for women to interact naturally with their children. Everyone must make sacrifices. If a woman in my office were pumping and perhaps falling a little behind, I would happily help her however I could, including covering for her work if necessary. It's what normal, mature people are supposed to do: take care of each other. When I see so many harsh, petty attitudes, it really makes me cry.

a man

As a manager, I find this person's need to account for every minute of everyone's time to be bordering on neurotic. If an employee is not doing his/her work or if the quality of the work is low, a good manager will soon figure out the situation and deal with the problem. I don't account for every minute of my employees' time... they in turn act like adults and produce high-quality work.

By the way, I am the pumper in our group and I have to get my work done one way or another... I'll probably "pay" for sitting in on this blog by editing some documents after the baby goes to sleep tonight!

And while we are trying to get the time and space for pumping, how about allowing breastpumps to be reimburseable medical expenses? I have a Section 125 medical expense account that I use to get reimbursed for co-pays, deductibles, etc. I can get reimbursed for purchasing contact lens solution but not for a breastpump. Why? Because the IRS considers breast pumps "for the convenience of the mother". (insert eye roll here)

Thanks to "childless" for not reproducing and for reminding us that it is actually all about YOU.

Breastfeeding in public is disgusting. I compare it to going to the bathroom in public. Nobody wants to see it and a lot of people are embarrassed by it. Be considerate of your audience, ladies, do it in private. And this pumping business is annoying to co=workers, too. Offices have to set aside a 'lactation room' for YOUR convenience so you don't clog up the bathroom stalls forever. Well, laaa de friggin' da. And breastmilk smells kind of funky. Yuck. As I've always said -- choose your priorities and stop whining. It's all about you, isn't it?

As I've always said -- choose your priorities and stop whining. It's all about you, isn't it?

Posted by: Childless by Choice | September 6, 2006 10:35 AM

It sounds like you are the whining and making it about you.

Kate's proposal that "there needs to be federal legislation requiring that all employers provide nursing mothers with reasonable breaks to pump, at least during the first year of their baby's life" is, while ideal, simply not feasible to implement.

All this discussion of women's opportunities or lack thereof to pump breastmilk focuses on two extremes of employment: service jobs and factory work vs. professional jobs. However, it completely ignores an entire class of workers for whom such breaks are an impossibility because of their responsibilities: schoolteachers -- particularly in elementary schools. These people are on duty all the time. And public schools aren't staffed in such a way that someone else can "cover for" a pumping mother.

Kind of ironic, isn't it, that the women educating your youngsters aren't in a position to give their own kids this supposed nutritional "boost."

As to the poster Jon, I think I've figured out what makes guys like him tick. The whole concept of pumping -- which is basically what is done commercially to cows -- desexualizes the breast in a way that makes it undesireable for some men. They want breasts to be arousing, not simply udders, and they find this notion disturbing and, frankly, not much fun.

Yes, it's an infantile, self-absorbed attitude, but it's certainly one that our society does little to counter.

Um...I think Jon was making what is called a "joke"....bit oversensitive are we? I mean, telling him he will not form any relationships with women in his lifetime on the basis of that one comment is a bit ridiculous.

I really can't understand where the hostility comes from with breastfeeding. I breast fed both my children for a year. There was no place in my office to pump, so I went home twice during the day to pump and not once dropped the ball at work. I used my lunchtime as pump time, split 30 minutes each. I did have to put up with a lot of off color jokes about it. There was a sign of the company refrigerator that said, "No human milk allowed." Most of the employees (including women) were grossed out. But I continued.

The day my grandmother died, my son was 2 months old. As my mother was taking care of him for the first year, I brought him to work early to inform my employer of the situation, answer any e-mails that came from overseas over night, and pick up work to take home. Of course a 2-month old is not very cooperative. So when he needed feeding, I shut my door (back when I had one) to breastfeed. Of course my supervisor, burst in the door without knocking wanting to know why I had the door closed! What a jerk!

But I find that it isn't just my office. My sister-in-law is a doctor. The other doctors in the practice made her very uncomfortable about pumping. She did it in her car. If a physician can't tolerate breastfeeding who can?

If you want to do it, be prepared for tears and nasty comments. I have no regrets.

I'm currently pumping for my second child (7 mo) and pumped until my first was 9 months. There were 3 of us at work that were pregnant at the same time and planning on pumping when we came back to work. We met with HR and asked that they set aside a room for pumping. I think there was power in numbers and they quickly set up a small room with a table and a mini fridge. I'm now working at home 3 days a week so instead of pumping, I just feed the baby instead.

Yes, I'm very lucky that I work in a technical field where I can do this. Women in low paying jobs get a double whammy, little money AND having to pay for expensive formula.

Good point pitty pat, I never even thought about teachers. I have a question. I was only able to breast feed for 6 weeks with my daughter because I got sick and before that I had a hard time, so my question is how often do mothers have to pump at work?

I was a SAHM when I was nursing (both times) so I didn't have to do the pumping juggling act. When I did try to pump, for a babystitter for example, it was fairly well a nightmare (lack of pumping experience and supplies,) so I can understand why making the process better known and more acceptable is so important.

One of my favorite bumper stickers (and I hate bumper stickers generally) is, "Affordable health care begins with breastfeeding." Too true, not just physically, digestively, etc., but psycho-spiritually if you will, and emotionally. Its time for us all to take a leap forward in how we relate to our offspring and our common humanity. Breast feeding serves this at its origin, transforming us all. So glad to hear this was covered in the NYT, if only for practical matters, and sure hope we'll hear more on this topic.

As to Jon, I have to concur with the crticisms against your comments. There's no parallel between sperm bank deposits and breastfeeding issues. A little logic would go a long way to bettering your participation in these discussions in the future.

"how often do mothers have to pump at work?"

Do you mean how many times a day? My wife pumped 3 times a day when she went back to work after 3 months for each. It tapered down when the kids started eating rice cereal and then other foods. By 11 months, she was able to stop as we had saved a supply in the freezer that would cover their needs for the last month. By then, the kids got cows milk and other foods during the day. She still nursed a bit in the morning and evening. That ended at about 15 months for both.

I pump three times a day at work. That's about the same number of nursings my son would take in a nine to ten hour day.

As for legislation - the idea could follow the ADA language ie "reasonable accomadation" & whether it interfers with your ability to handle the "primary function".

Creativity goes a long way - for teachers even in elementary school children have art, music, pe that have specialists teaching. Some schedule coordination would allow a pumping session - and you can pump and eat at the same time so there is that lunch break.

I do agree some jobs just won't work - for instance on a road crew, some construction sites, but every effort should be made to help women provide what is best for our future generations.

"Creativity goes a long way - for teachers even in elementary school children have art, music, pe that have specialists teaching."

Correction: children USED to have art, music, pe, etc. Nowadays, at least in public school systems, these are considered to be frills.

Yeah, there's lunchtime. A 20-minute break to gobble a sandwich, then out to lunch duty in the schoolyard.

No, pumping for elementary school teachers is pretty much a non-starter. They spend practically every minute of their day being responsible for their students. How do you get two or three pumping sessions in during that kind of a day?

I pumped at work for about 10 months. I am lucky to have an office and requested a lock. HR initially resisted but, as a manager, I pointed to the constant stream of people in and out of my office (often opening the door w/o knocking). I put a sign up on my door (please do not disturb)and locked it when I was pumping -- the only person who consistently tried to come in while I was pumping was my boss (a mother herself). I initially pumped 4x/day, gradually getting down to 1x/day by month 10 -- and I bought a hands-free device so I could continue to work. I could do everything while I was pumping except see people face to face. After reading that NY Times article, I realize how very good I had it and it bothers me because every mother should have the same opportunity to work and still breastfeed her child should that be her choice.

On the teacher issue, what about their assistants, if they have any or the PTA volunteers who come in during the day. I would use my lunch break to give a teacher a break to pump.

Scarry,

School teachers generally don't have assistants -- unless they work with special needs kids. But the PTA volunteer idea is a good one. Maybe a school PTA could set up a pool of parents who could be available for class supervision on a rotating basis. Maybe even help out several teacher-mothers at a time by staggering the breaks.

Maybe I'm just a stupid man, but how much of the benefit of breastmilk/feeding comes from the close bond between parent and child and how much from the actual nutrients?

It seems to me the best options would be:

a.) actual breastfeeding

b.) pumped milk with baby being held while fed.

c.) formula with baby being held while fed.

And the worst possible scenario.

Giving Jr. the bottle and letting him have at it as soon as he can hold it, whether it be breastmilk or formula.

Am I crazy?

To those that encourage moms to continue pumping and be vocal about their needs, I totally agree. I used to be one of those who considered breastfeeding and pumping somewhat gross and mysterious. I had no experience with being around anyone who did it.

Then I had my son, and pumped for him for one year. I found nothing weird about it after my immediate wonder of it all, and just simply felt proud to be able to do it, period. In our culture that puts mothers on a pedestal, isn't breastmilk one of the best gifts (I said *one of the best*, not the only gift) a mother can give her child? I think the tide is turning in this country. Perhaps our children will have a different experience with their perception of breastfeeding, pumping and breastmilk.

To the poster who said breastmilk smells "funky" -- It actually smells and tastes like sweet nectar compared to the heavy, metallic and simply disgusting taste and smell of formula. Perhaps you are confusing the two!

I pumped until each of my children was one year old. I'm fortunate to have an office, though I remember one low point in an airport bathroom stall in Miami during an out-of-town trip. That batch got thrown out - I just pumped to relieve the pressure. I can't say that there wasn't some supplementation with formula. It was just too hard to keep up. Especially since I worked full-time during the time my oldest was 4-8 months old.

Regarding time off from work, it seemed to me that pumping 2-3 times a day was made up by working through lunch. Everyone has personal responsiblities they have to take care of during the day, whether it be scheduling doctor's appointments or pumping. You just make up for it in other ways.

Regarding tips - I would always wake my baby up as late as possible before I had to leave at work to get another nursing in to help keep the supply up, and try to fit extra nursings in over the weekend. If you can afford it, it helps to get the high-end, Medela brand pump. Over time, it probably doesn't cost more than formula.

I'm probably one of the minority of people who nursed my children for one year each and do not appreciate women breastfeeding in public. I managed to get by without doing it. Of course, I come from a family where I couldn't do it in front of my Dad or male in-laws. My son had a large appetite, so I spent a large part of the time my family was visiting for his baptism up in my bedroom nursing!

As the mom of an 8 month old, I pump 3x a day at work. My law firm made it very easy for me -- including a free Lactina pump and lactation consultant -- and I can just shut (and lock) my door whenever i need to. Anyone trying to pump at work (or at home) should get one of the harnesses so you have your hands free to do something else while you pump. As for washing your pumping supplies, I have moist towelette things from Medela that are like wash and dries. They clean up the pump equipment and then I wipe down the area in case anything splashed. I bought a little mini fridge to put under my desk so it's all close by and not sitting next to someone's enchiladas! Even as easy as it is for me to pump, my supply is still going down. I can't imagine how tough it is for other women, especially those whose maternity leaves didn't give them enough time to build up a good freezer supply. Companies should listen to the needs of nursing moms -- the help that my company gave me with nursing, coupled with their willingness to let me switch to a part time schedule, actually convinced me to turn down two jobs with the federal government.

I breast feed and pump at the office. But I think women who do so should be considerate of their coworkers -- some of whom might be uncomfortable with seeing breastmilk in the refrigerator. Whether or not you agree with their discomfort and feel they should just "get over it," it is afterall a place of business where what's best for YOUR child is not necessarily paramount (nor should be) on the minds of your colleagues. I've found it's pretty simple to take simple measures to be discreet - for example, placing a grocery bag over the plastic one storing the breastmilk in the freezer. I think the in your face "it's natural therefore I'm entitled to do it whenever, wherever and however I want" attitude of many mothers really rubs non-parents the wrong way.

I wonder what recommendations breastfeeding advocacy groups have for factory and service workers. Surely people are working on this. A lot of groups, including some state and local government agencies, give awards to employers who are breastfeeding friendly. One group in California had this on their website: "Breastfeeding friendly workplaces have been shown to decrease employee absenteeism by up to 57% due to the health benefits for both mother and baby, while enhancing employee productivity, loyalty, and morale."

I do wonder if legislation was passed that made it possible for all women who wanted to pump at work to do so, and it is made commonplace, whether the current advocates and promoters of breastfeeding and pumping would promote another practice, like breastfeeding is, as something that smart, educated, thinking, non-abusive mothers do, i.e. the professional and educated classes. Though the stated reason a lot of people breastfeed is that it is best for the child, which might actually be true, it also has a lot to do with signaling. After all, if you breastfeed, it sends a very clear signal who are, a mother, and how you want to be perceived, and one is that you are separate from people who bottlefeed, those who are not smart and educated.

For the poster who asked about whether the nutrients in breast milk are important - yes. The baby does recieve antibodies from the mom so they are less likely to get sick (less likely sometimes they still get sick) and though formulas are getting better the balance of nutrients, fats protiens etc in breast milk are exactly what a human baby needs (its those eons of evolution or the way God planned it depending on your belief system)

"After all, if you breastfeed, it sends a very clear signal who are, a mother, and how you want to be perceived, and one is that you are separate from people who bottlefeed, those who are not smart and educated."

I was 24 and had just a high school education when my son was born. I decided to breasfeed for practical reasons.
- We were poor and breastmilk was FREE.
- I didn't like the idea of having to mess around with formula, sterilizing bottles, etc.
- Breastmilk was always available.
- I knew it was better for the baby and he would be less likely to get sick (he never got so much as a sniffle until he was weaned)
As it turned out breasfeeding was also good for me. I lost weight like crazy while nursing my son.

One note, I was a stay at home mom during his infancy.

"smart, educated, thinking, non-abusive mothers do, i.e. the professional and educated and educated classes."

Do you have any stats to back that up?

Sounds pretty arrogant......

As a couple of people have pointed out, this is really about the type of job you have. I don't see why employers of hourly workers should spend more money on pumping facilities and then also give that group of women time off to pump--particularly since pumping is a UMC fixation and not that many poor women are interested. I bet the Times got a showcase from La Lache for the article.

If the best you can do is a job at Starbucks once you're a parent, then be happy you've got a job. I doubt very much many of that group can afford all the expensive pumping gear, anyway. A non-problem in search of Leslie to bleed about it.

And to forestall the usual bleats about my experience, I pumped. I pumped in the restroom at work and never really thought much about it--as did the other women who pumped (not many). I did it for about 3 months, because the time my son was six months, I could quickly pump 8 ounces morning and night and 16 ounces got him through the day once he was eating solids.

I was living on a boat at the time, and as I am not the most organized of people, I'd always finish pumping, put the bottle on the counter, get up and find a top. One day, I knocked over the bottle before I found the top. Oh well, no point crying about it. So I just sat down and pumped 8 more. (My daycare provider at the time referred to me in unseemly bovine terms, but I'm sure she was just jealous.)

I mention this because most people assume that anyone unsympathetic to the various wails for better treatment has never experienced the situation in question. Wrong. Some people manage quite nicely because they don't think parenting and breastfeeding and the like are all that terribly difficult once you have a reasonable level of intelligence and flexibility. Poor working women may not have the first and definitely don't have the second. So? It's great they have a job. Don't make them more expensive to hire.

"Do you have any stats to back that up?"

Back up the fact that most breastfeeders in the US are educated women? Do you want stats on the shape of the earth, as well?

Great to see your post again, Cal. This blog just wasn't caustic enough already.

Please back up the fact that most breatfeeders in the U.S. are non-abusive.

"Pump supporter" -- you are not, so you should change your "name"

I pumped at work for both my kids, twice a day -- once around lunchtime and once at the end of my day. With my second child, it was less successful b/c I had to be in court a lot. I did not have a lock on either door. I wish I did. With my first child, I was pumping and there was a knock on my office door (which had a "do not disturb" sign on it). "Yes?" I called out, and the fool had the nerve to open the door. It was a female coworker who was in a rush to get me to join her carpool. My back was to her, so I turned my head and calmly and firmly said (without stopping or removing a thing), "I will be with you in a minute." She left and had the good sense to not return.

That office also had windows near the ceiling. One day, something told me to eat lunch first, then pump. Good thing, because workers had been called in to change the ceiling lights, and I saw a guy looking down through my window at me. I waved. Imagine if I had been pumping! I told my woooonderful HR person, who said, "I didn't know you were nursing." No, dimwit, I only do it every day at the same time. She really didn't care.

With my second child, I was pumping at the end of the day. A coworker who had pumped advised me to add "nursing" or "pumping" to my "do not disturb" sign. Yes, some folks were that clueless there. I did, but a cleaning person at the end of the day knocked and then opened the door before I called out to her to stop.

To store the milk, I used a cooler bag that was in one of those infamous formula/breastfeeding success goody bags the hospitals gave me. I put the bag in the fridge. No problem.

Attitudes are everything. I didn't have a perfect work pumping situation (although it could have been worse) largely because of attitude.

Sometimes, you need to fight attitude with attitude. Not with a bad attitude, but with a polite, firm message that you are doing something health-related and necessary, and you want some accommodation. Employers who don't get it when it comes to accommodating needs have a revolving door.

One more note: To avoid buying a harness so you can pump hands-free, instead, try spending $2 at Target for a roll of 2" wide masking tape. I used that to tape on each "horn" across the top and it worked perfectly (stickiness was not too excessive, but worked just right).

I have to credit DH for this, as I was initially quite doubtful. But it allowed me to read during the pumping time and probably prolonged the time I was willing to pump.

This entire discussion could be avoided if breasts weren't regarded as "private parts." I mean, they're just breasts. They aren't used in copulation or reproduction, so I don't understand why they are so sexualized. I don't see anything wrong with a woman breastfeeding in public if she is discreet. I used to work at a restaurant, and rather than removing the child from a family dinner to nurse in a restroom, most women did it right there at the table, using a freshly laundered napkin to cover the baby's head and the offending breast. I was never distracted or disgusted by the sight of a napkin over a woman's shoulder and breast, and it didn't take away from my ability to do my job, or her or the other diners' pleasure. I personally find breastfeeding to be distasteful to watch, but there are lots of other things that are distasteful that are commonly accepted; the sight of babies eating mashed peas out of a jar is equally disgusting, as is an obese person wearing booty shorts. But no one says anything about that. They're just breasts, after all. Everyone has them babies need them for food. I wish we could all just lighten up and if we see something we deem ugly, hey, how about looking at the woman's face when you talk to her? That's really what you ought to be doing anyway.

As for pumping, I have absolutely no experience in this area. I think most moms should be able to improvise, but there were points brought up regarding teachers and servers/bartenders. After being a server/bartender throughout college, I know that often there are hours--sometimes an entire shift--that are so busy that you cannot even use the restroom, let alone spend thirty minutes in there pumping. I can't imagine how hard blue-collar moms have it when they have to pump, but I do know that something has to change. It's just downright cruel to not allow a woman 30 minutes a day to pump for her child, not to mention relieve the pressure that must build up in her breasts.

On pumping at work:

I bought 3 sets of horns because I was sick of using the Medela wipes. I just clean everything at night.

Regarding teachers being able to take breaks to pump...

Well, my sister-in-law is a teacher, and she did it for about a year with each of her kids. It is true that it had some challenges. I think she had to sometimes pump in the bathroom or even the coatroom of her classroom while the kids were at recess. I also think the schedule of the day could change a bit so she wouldn't necessarily have the same opportunities each day to pump. But I think between her lunch hour and a planning period and maybe an occasional break while her teaching assistant took over, she managed to make do. But I guess it's like many things, you have to want to do it bad enough to deal with the difficulties. My S-I-L had a fairly supportive principal who tried to accommodate her as best she could so support from the boss can be very important too.

I think Scarry asked how often one needs to pump during the day. I usually pumped 2 or 3 times and then bf as soon as I arrived at daycare.

I personally find nothing wrong with breastfeeding in public (at least most places) but it's fairly easy not to be "in-your-face" about it. Having to always run someplace to hide just so that some potential random person might not be embarassed is in itself an impediment to breastfeeding. Especially since most of the time people can't see what you're doing anyway.

And storing breast milk in the refrigerator at work doesn't need to be a big deal either. I actually stored bottles in an insulated bag that I would put in the refrigerator so for all anyone could tell, it would look like my lunch.

I would like to see more employers realize that it is in their best interest to make reasonable accomodations to pumping moms. 15 minutes a day and a private room could substantially reduce unexpected absenteeism due to child illness. My baby has been in day care since 3 months and has had no more than the sniffles - I attribute this partly to breastfeeding. Not to mention that we all benefit from having the next generation be as smart and healthy as possible. Children of low-income moms - the moms that are going to have the hardest time pumping and bfeeding - are the most likely to have health care costs subsidized by our tax dollars. Just from fiscal standpoint, I would like them to be as healthy as possible...

I also wish that more doctors, nurses, lactation consultants, and media would educate women that bfing does not have to be an all or nothing thing. For many women, it is possible to bfeed in the am and pm, and perhaps pump once or twice during the day during scheduled breaks (the breaks everyone else gets, for all of you folks obsessed with so-called "equality"), and supplement with formula. Studies suggest that any breastmilk is beneficial, for as long as one can manage, and I think many new moms think that they must give it up entirely when they go back to work.

I have been pumping for over a year for my now 1 1/2 year old son. I have often thought how lucky I am that I have my own office and a fridge under my desk. I also rent a hospital grade pump that I leave on my desk; it's an expensive enterprise, but still cheaper than formula. And best of all I get to continue breastfeeding my son on the days that I am home (I work part time) instead of having to force him to wean far before he is ready.

Keep on pumping moms!

There are two ways to look at it.

People are really just animals. So you have five kids and breastfed them all? Well, my hamster did too, only her kids are a litter. People should forget this whole society and get back to nature. Breasts are totally natural, and we shouldn't be forced to cover them or hide them. We should do as much stuff naturally as possible, like grow our own food with no pesticides, never eat animals (that's like eating us!), use renewable energy like solar power, eschew all the trappings of modern technology, and, of course, breastfeed.

OR

People are "higher" animals because of our brains. We created a society that differentiates from our minds and our bodies. We cover our reproductive organs because we're smart enough to! Dogs pee in the street, not people; we're better! Our technology lets us escape nature and live longer, healthier lives. We have the ability to control nature and should do it to make our lives easier, like have C-sections, vaccinate, have tests done on the baby before it's born to make sure things are fine, freeze food, and, of course, use formula when you have to.

Please don't argue that breastfeeding is "natural" and therefore perfect and good and admirable. You can argue that it's good for the baby, but that's about it. We as humans don't do much that's "natural" anymore, so let's not pretend that breastfeeding is about reconnecting with nature.

That being said, because it's beneficial for the baby, there is no reason not to have pumping rooms and short breaks during the day. I personally find it gross to have breastmilk in the fridge, but there are people who don't like me reheating fish for lunch. I don't bring it in to be polite, but I know that working moms don't have that option.

""Pump supporter" -- you are not, so you should change your "name""

Oh, I see. So to support a woman pumping at work, I have to support a woman taking 2 to 3 20-30 minute "breaks" during the work day - possibly doing less work than when not pumping?

Yes, "professionals" can read or write things when pumping so work efficiency isn't lowered. However, what about the person working at Starbucks or McDonalds? They cannot work while pumping. Do they deserve extra paid breaks? Heck no. Do I deserve 2 to 3 20-30 minutes breaks each day to go for a walk?

I'm just saying be "fair". If people expect pumping women to get "free" time off to do it, give the same amount of "free" time to EVERYBODY. But that's crazy.

Thanks for the information on how much you have to pump. I'm hoping that I will have better luck with the next baby than I did with my daughter.

On the regulation issue, it is feasible - I know I've posted this before, but two states (CO and CT) currently have statutes that require employers over a certain size to allow nursing mothers two breaks to pump each day. CT also requires them to provide a private space that is not a bathroom, while CO "recommends" that but doesn't require it. CT's law has been in place for I think two years now, and as far as I know the economy has not come crashing down.

To the person who asked for helpful tips - I mentioned this another time as well, but the little sterilizing wipes made by Medela are great if you don't have time/place to wash the horns etc.

"But I think between her lunch hour and a planning period and maybe an occasional break while her teaching assistant took over, she managed to make do."

Don't know too many public elementary school teachers who have a lunch "hour," a planning period, or a teaching assistant. (And I know a lot of 'em, even though I'm not one, myself).

Lunch is usually a hastily swallowed sandwich followed by a quick pee and then outdoor duty 'til the lunch period is over.

Planning periods, which classroom teachers used to enjoy when their groups were scheduled for art, music, or pe, no longer have these free chunks of time, as increasingly these subjects are being eliminated from the curriculum as unnecessary.

And, again, teaching assistants are generally available only for special education teachers, who may have several difficult-to-manage kids in their classes.

It would be interesting to hear from some of these women about their experiences with the bf/pumping issue. However, they're all working right now (at jobs that don't allow them to sit at computers like we can!), and by the time they get home, get dinner, get the kids to bed, etc., most are too exhausted to check the mommy blog to see how the other half lives.

Lunch

There are two of us using this name.

Margo

Here is link to a cdc report which mentions what I was talking about. The report stated that "In all states with income measures, the prevalence of breastfeeding initiation increased with higher income level; women with incomes of <100% FPL and 101%--200% FPL reported lower rates of breastfeeding than women with higher incomes"

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5304a1.htm

And as income is strongly linked to education levels then one could say that educated people breastfeed at higher rates. I don't see how that could be construed as arrogant; it is just the way it is.

Remember, its all about signaling!Breastfeeding is promoted as something that mothers who care about their children's health and welfare, etc. do, and therefore if you are not breastfeeding, and by this definition of good parenting, you don't care about your children's health and welfare. So if you want to define yourself as a professional educated person, breastfeeding is one of the behaviors one could use to signal who you are or want to be.

There are two of us using this name.

Posted by: To pump supporter | September 6, 2006 12:15 PM

--------------------

Which is why the unimaginative (i.e. those who can't think of a simple name) should not post.

There are two of us using this name.

Posted by: To pump supporter | September 6, 2006 12:15 PM

--------------------

Which is why the unimaginative (i.e. those who can't think of a simple name) should not post.

Posted by: | September 6, 2006 12:22 PM

So that should include you too, right? :)

"Which is why the unimaginative (i.e. those who can't think of a simple name) should not post."

This from an anonymous poster - thanks for the laugh

d's report also says "those with <12 years of education, and those with low incomes reported the lowest rates of breastfeeding initiation "

There ya go. Less than 12 years of eduation reported lowest rates of breastfeeding.

Mona, A woman's breast is a reproductive organ. It's only purpose is to feed offspring (it doesn't digest food or pump blood). It is therefore involved in reproduction. We cover our parts between our legs for the same reasons, so that's why women cover their breasts. That's society'r rule, not mine.

It's very confusing to tout the life-or-death importance of breastfeeding and then say that breasts aren't involved in reproduction. Um, huh?

Wait, we're sitting here on the blog lamenting the situations of mothers in service jobs who can't breastfeed and someone wanted facts to back-up the assertion that mothers of lower SES and education have the lowest instances of breastfeeding?!?!?!

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

to
"d's report also says "those with <12 years of education, and those with low incomes reported the lowest rates of breastfeeding initiation "

There ya go. Less than 12 years of eduation reported lowest rates of breastfeeding."

Most of the low-income mothers qualify for free formula, which they receive with DOCTORS' recommendations. Do you know anything about the real world?

I was asking about stats concerning the "non-abusive" portion of the statement.

I've been reading this blog for quite a while now. I've noticed that a lot of the posters mention their high levels of education, good jobs that aford them private offices, etc... I just have a highschool education and work in a cubicle. I've always sort of put the higher educated among us on a pedestal, then I started reading this blog that seems to denegrates into insult trading everyday. Can we not make our arguments, present our points of view, even disagree without sinking to insults and namecalling?

*I'm just saying be "fair". If people expect pumping women to get "free" time off to do it, give the same amount of "free" time to EVERYBODY. But that's crazy.**

I agree. Amy Joyce's discussion yesterday had an entry explaining equal opportunity in the workplace being about equal benefits for all employees. Why not a one-hour health break (or 3 20 minute breaks) per day for EVERY employee. some could breastfeed (this for the child's health), others could exercise (for their own health), and the sleep-deprived could nap (also for their own health).

I don't want breastmilk in the employee fridge because there's barely enough room for the employees to put their own lunches? You should bring your own cooler/ice-packs. How would you like it if I went to the grocery store for my family's dinner during lunch time and then stored it in the employees fridge?

A lot of self-important entitled people here. I should be able to work, bf, take breaks, have flexibility, extended maternity leave, not have my career suffer, etc, because I'm smart and educated, and it's best for my baby and for me,me,me.

BF is natural, pumping isn't.

Do what you want for your kids, but be willing to make adjustments and don't expect the workplace and all co-workers to be supportive of your decisions.

And it is possible (doh!) that the women with less education are in the service jobs not friendly to breast feeding. Kind of figures that they would be less likely to do it.

Correlation is not causation folks!

I am in the same boat you are. Have you figured out that there are a whole lot of educated people who are no more intelligent than you are? They just had the opportunity to get the formal education. They are also not better people because they have been educated. And they certainly have no more common sense.

Meesh --

From a purely physiological standpoint, breasts are not part of the female reproductive system. That is why women who have had breast surgery or amputation are still perfectly capable of conceiving and bearing children.

Melt --

Yeah, this is pretty funny. I read the blog everyday for entertainment and amusement, and sometimes I'm drawn to post, and sometimes I even get into silly round-robins with other posters. You find out really quickly how easy it is to be sucked into the blogosphere!

No matter how earnestly the responses begin each morning (today being an exception, what with Mister Sperm-Freeze being the first poster), they almost always degenerate into personal commentary and interpersonal bickering.

And, yeah, people do seem to need to show off about something -- how educated they are, how much money they make, what terrific parents they are, how long and effectively they've breastfed, etc., etc.

But, given the daily topics on this blog, I don't know that there are a lot of other ways to go. I mean, how long can any group of people outside of a La Leche meeting go on about breastfeeding? I mean, come on. How interesting is that?

Margo

As to the abuse question, its not so much about the statistics, its about the perception of who is a good or a bad parent. I recall an uproar about an ad campaign, intended to promote breast feeding which was to have included an ad that equated not breastfeeding to riding a mechanical bull while pregnant. I don't think that it is a big leap that argue that the promoters of breastfeeding, who developed this ad campaign, would view breastfeeding as akin to abuse.

correct last line of 1:05 post from d to read

"would view not breastfeeding as akin to abuse."

wow, does anyone really know someone whose primary reason for breastfeeding is "signaling"? ...that's just bizarre.

there always seem to be disputes about treating everyone fairly (e.g., equal amounts of breaks and nonwork time for everyone, or the same tax breaks for breeders and nonbreeders, etc.), but isn't it actually in society's best interest (and probably businesses' too) that we raise healthy children. the short-term sacrifices when it comes to breastfeeding (extra breaks, accommodations, etc.) seem far outweighed by the potential longterm impacts: possibly less sick days the employee takes off to take care of the child later on, less worker turnover/higher employee morale, less tax money spent on formula, the growing of future consumers, and the fact that the recipient of the milk will one day be paying taxes and or pushing one of us around when we're in wheel chairs.

breastfeeding seems like one of those things we should support at all levels of society for those who wish to pursue it.

"The female reproductive system is more complex than that of the male. It produces ova (egg cells); nourishes, carries, and protects the developing embryo; and nurses the newborn after birth. The system structures are the ovary, uterine tubes, uterus, vagina, vulva, and mammary glands."

http://www.besthealth.com/besthealth/bodyguide/reftext/html/repr_sys_fin.html#female

Women can also have babies without actually having sex. Just because technology makes it possible to feed kids without breasts doesn't mean that breasts don't play a role in reproduction. That's why animal babies die when their mothers refuse to nurse them (unless another animals feeds them, of course).

Meesh --

Reproducing life and sustaining life are two different things. My point is, again strictly physiologically, that women do not need breasts to reproduce -- only to sustain. And, as we know, that can be done without breasts, as well.

Do what you want for your kids, but be willing to make adjustments and don't expect the workplace and all co-workers to be supportive of your decisions."

Absolutely! A job is a JOB. Your work is not the place to expect coddling and lots of special treatment. If you want that, make an effort to find a workplace that is supportive of it. Not everyone is so blessed to work in single offices and have a lot of time to go off and "pump".

Does it really matter whether or not the breasts are part of the reproductive system? What matters is what is socially acceptable. There are some societies where it is not acceptable for a women to wear shorts. What is acceptable here is very different from what is acceptable in Saudia Arabia. There are nudist colonies. There are topless beaches. The focus should be on making breastfeeding socially acceptable. Being discreet will make it easier. The easiest people to educate are your family and close friends. If your little sister sees you doing it discreetly she will be more willing herself. If your five-yr old sees you do it with the baby he will assume it is normal and will be less freaked out when he is older. I think part of the reason people are uncomfortable is we had a generation where it wasn't that common and even when it was it was a "women's thing"

Why are we wasting our energy on breast feeding when so many larger and more important issues for working mothers exist?

A child is nursed a small proportion of the time a Mom cares for them. What Moms really need is equal pay and better more flexible jobs.

Instead of patting ourselves on the back for crumbs that really don't last very long why not concentrate on the real prize - flexible jobs and equal pay.

We shouldn't settle for this 'feel good' bone being thrown to us.

I pumped once a day at work. I nursed the last second before I left home (about 7:30 am) and as soon as I picked up my son (about 5:30 pm) and pumped somewhere in the middle, about lunch time. The first few days were hard--pretty painful by about noon, and then by 4:00, but my body adjusted to the new schedule. On Monday-Wed I'd have no problem pumping 10-12 ounces, by Friday it was more like 6-8. (On weekends I would nurse around the clock to stimulate production back up.) I would hand whatever I pumped to the sitter when I picked up my son and she'd give me the empties. He got formula for any feeding after the day's milk ran out.

I did not go back to work full time until he was 3 months old, so my supply was well-established. Pumping only once a day worked well for me because it only took 20 minutes out of the day and I didn't have to wash or sterilize anything during the day--I just took everything home. I could also live with the formula supplement since 90% of the feedings were BF. Once my son started on solids I dropped the pumping/milk drop off and he nursed in the morning, at night, and on weekends and had formula during the day.

This won't work for everyone, I know a lot of people need to nurse or pump much more frequently to keep up their supply. And I've gotten some criticism for the formula supplements (apparently it is "harmful"--when lots of babies get NO breastmilk at all!) But I would encourage people to try to pump and see if you can deal with the hassles, or to see if a combination of nursing and formula will work before you stop BFing completely.

Breastfeeding mothers are not abusive? Excuse me? I was breastfed (I don't remember it, thank God -- GAG!) and my mother was one of the most abusive people I've ever met. She would not hesitate to slap the bejeepers out of us in addition to verbal abuse with no provocation. She couldn't stand to be in the same room with her children.
This blog reminds me of a line from "Murphy Brown" -- in one episode after Murphy spawned she went back to her office for a visit. She had to cut short the visit because 'Old Bessie has to get back to the barn.' Direct quote from the show -- don't shoot the messenger.
Here the smokers are entitled to unlimited smoke breaks. The pumping sows are entitled to pumping breaks. We non-smoking non-parents have to actually work for a living. Life is tough, ya know.

"The focus should be on making breastfeeding socially acceptable."

Why?

Childless by Choice - if your mother was so abusive I hope you are in counseling. Maybe your company could provide this benefit? Your counselor cost vs. my share of the cost for the lactation room. How is that for a trade?

I am strongly in favor of breastfeeding, for any woman who can do so, for the benefit of the child and of society as a whole. In my personal opinion, there is nothing wrong with breastfeeding in public or at work. I agree with the people who stated that the breast is "meant for" feeding the baby. I also agree with the people who would prefer not to have tax dollars go towards buying formula, which is a poor substitute for real human milk. If there is some way to make it possible for all mothers, including low-income mothers with inflexible jobs, to breastfeed and to pump milk for their babies, I think we should do so. I like the idea of one person on this board, of giving everyone three 20-minute breaks during their workday - - - that is fair and should not be too much of a burden on employers. And Jon, if you wish to put sperm in the freezer at work I really don't mind, but I wonder what is the purpose for that? Are you planning to thaw it out and implant it later in the day? The breast milk will actually be used, but I would think you'd prefer a more "natural" method of implanting your sperm. Just my opinion.

Not to go off-topic, but the counseler cost idea sounds interesting...also would be easier to see my therapist if I got to leave early once a week. Another other ways to balance our personal issues? Really am curious - do anyone else have "needs" they feel should be met?

Breastfeeding should be socially acceptable because it is better for the babies, especially their health (less dr visits = lower medical insurance, less missed work days). The more socially acceptable breastfeeding is the more it is likely to be done.

Do all these people who get so grossed out by the thought of human milk in the communal fridge get similarly worked up over cow or goat milk?

Also, all the pro-breastfeeding rhetoric focuses on the benefits to the baby excessively, IMO. It also has health benefits for the mother, including lower rates of breast and ovarian cancer. It also makes it a heck of a lot easier to take that pregnancy weight off.

What I find really ammusing are the people posting here who are complaining about pumping moms needing extra breaks, when obviously the complainers as well as the rest of us are spending a good part of our day "blogging".

"However, it completely ignores an entire class of workers for whom such breaks are an impossibility because of their responsibilities: schoolteachers -- particularly in elementary schools. These people are on duty all the time. And public schools aren't staffed in such a way that someone else can 'cover for" a pumping mother.'"

What happened to elementary schools? When I was in elementary school I spent most of the school day with the same teacher but switched to another teacher for gym, art, etc. During lunch and recess it was common for one teacher to "cover for" several teachers.

"Everyone has personal responsiblities they have to take care of during the day, whether it be scheduling doctor's appointments or pumping. You just make up for it in other ways."

Good point. It's awkward when you have to make a phone call that's personal on your end (so some people expect you to call outside office hours) and business on the other (so calling outside office hours might make asking a couple of questions take a few days of phone tag).

"I agree. Amy Joyce's discussion yesterday had an entry explaining equal opportunity in the workplace being about equal benefits for all employees."

Another good point.

to the poster who suggested that non-professionals can't even afford pumping machines so the issue of them having time and place to pump is irrelevant, you are incorrect. Actually, hand pumps are very inexpensive-- I think it was around $30 for the whole set-up for a hand-powered pump (Avent brand). Besides, you can rent the powerful, expensive ones or buy them cheap on Ebay or craigslist (you can buy used without any fear for contamination-- although the producers of course don't want people to know that!) In any case, as an earlier poster mentioned even buying a brand new power pump is cheaper than buying formula so it should work economically for people to pump-- that is assuming the employer will let them!

A real "giant leap" in breast feeding would be to find a way for men to breastfeed.

Of course, those that did would be even more ostracized than the women who choose to.

"Do all these people who get so grossed out by the thought of human milk in the communal fridge get similarly worked up over cow or goat milk?"

I'm not grossed out by it. Then again, I'm not one of those moochers who eats and drinks coworkers' stuff out of the communal fridge and might drink someone else's human milk in it...

I really liked the suggestion about 1 hour of health time per day ;) That would accomadate smokers, mothers, and people who want to work out. Of course that would probably just extend your working shift by an extra hour, but it would be nice :)

"A real 'giant leap' in breast feeding would be to find a way for men to breastfeed."

Good one! Ever hear the old saying about how, if men were the ones giving birth, every family would have only one kid?

I think the controversy here is that when people make a choice (and having a family is a choice), and then expect to get compensation from employers and coworkers for having made that choice.

As far as I am concerned, I support bf'ing, but I also don't see that it is the employer or coworkers jobs to make that choice a luxury and give some employees more "benefits" than others. The request for special rooms and time off for bf'ing is just elitism, IMHO. You've made the decision, *YOU* make the sacrifices that are necessary to make that choice work.

This doesn't mean that I am unsympathetic. I think that people need to accept that bf'ing is a part of life and get over it. If it happens in public, as long as it is discrete, it isn't anyone else's business. I think that in an office environment that time/breaks should be allowed as long as the mother makes up the time. This is the same as any person taking off time for a smoking break (and in our office, people taking smoking breaks are expected to make up the time), a break to run to the post office, or any other time off. No one monitors it, but you are an adult and expected to act like it.

If your office has someplace private that you can use (like a conference room, an unused office or lounge), that's great. If your office doesn't provide a location for you to feed, make some allowances. I know one woman who used to bring in a bedsheet and would pin it up over her cubicle entrance when she would pump. I know a few mothers who wear bf'ing blouses that have an opening for the breasts and a outer layers which hangs down like a shawl covering the front. You can put the baby underneath the outer layer and the baby can feed and you can't see the breasts or the feeding. Wear a blouse like that for pumping. Or make/buy a poncho to pump under. You can get one of those cheap bifold screens to set up in the lounge/office with a window by the door, etc to conceal yourself when you are pumping. If your coworkers don't like the milk in the communal freezer, hide it in a lunch bag (nylon ones cost about $6 at chez Target and look like anyone else's lunch) or get one of those plug in coolers that you can keep under your desk (they only cost about $30...less than your pump costs); you can get one that has both an AC plug and a car-lighter plug to take the frozen milk home and keep it cool on the way. Make the situation work without demanding more from employers and coworkers.

"It also makes it a heck of a lot easier to take that pregnancy weight off."

This is not necessarily true. For many women, the body holds on to extra fat stores during the time they are breastfeeding. And some women who formula feed (like me) lose the weight almost instantly (I think it took me 3 weeks to get to pre-pregnancy weight and 6 to get into my old clothes) even when using formula.

I rode my motorcycle with my new girlfriend on the back to Burke Lake Park. As we dismounted in front of the ice cream store, I noticed what looked to be a 15 or maybe 16 year old girl sitting on a boulder licking an ice cream cone. Strikingly beautiful, she appeared as if she hadn't a worry in the world. her blouse was unbuttoned all the way down, completely exposing her right breast. Latched on to her left nipple was a tiny but considerably plump and very, very happy baby.

My girlfriend started the conversation with the young mother by asking her the baby's name. further along in the conversation, we found out that mom was from Sweden and was visiting family. then my girlfriend asked the mom permision to hold the baby. Then it was my turn. I felt awkward, and I could feel myself blushing. The young mother, though about 10 years my junior seemed cool as a cucumber as she dried herself off and buttoned up her blouse. It was the first time I ever help a baby as an adult, and I was already 24 years old.

There is something incredibly beautiful and peaceful I find from witnessing a mother breastfeed her baby. It's one of those elements about women that make them magic.

And the girlfriend on the back of my motorcycle? Well, I married her.

"A real 'giant leap' in breast feeding would be to find a way for men to breastfeed."

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=117&art_id=ct20021030223759931B6231781&set_id=1

Sri Lankan widower breastfeeds his babies

October 30 2002 at 10:38PM

Colombo - A 38-year-old Sri Lankan man, whose wife had died three months ago, appears to have the ability to breastfeed his two infant daughters, doctors said on Wednesday.

The man, from the central town of Walapone, lost his wife during childbirth.

"My eldest daughter refused to be fed with powdered milk liquid in the feeding bottle.

"I was so moved one evening and to stop her crying I offered my breast. I then realised that I was capable of breastfeeding her," the man admitted.

Dr Kamal Jayasinghe, deputy director of a Sri Lankan government hospital, was quoted as saying it was possible for men to produce milk if the prolactine hormone became hyperactive. - Sapa-AFP

One thing I haven't seen addressed here and just out of curiosity since I haven't breast fed in over 18 years. I nursed my son for 7 months, had plenty of milk, no problem. But, I was never able to pump successfully. No matter how full I was, I couldn't get the let down reflex while pumping. Tried everything, went out and bought an expensive electric breastpump. Still no luck. I could never get more than a dribble. Luckily I wasn't working, because I was tied to the baby constantly. Has anyone else had this problem?

>>> wow, does anyone really know someone whose primary reason for breastfeeding is "signaling"? ...that's just bizarre. >>>

This type of discussion is very prevalent among academic-types, like women's studies professors and sociology professors etc. I heard it ad-nauseam while in graduate school. Basically, women who use terms like *signaling* do things only to make a statement to other stupid, less educated, Prole-types. But what they fail to understand is that no one cares.

For dadwannabe: Saying that a special room for pumping/breastfeeding is a luxury is in the same category as saying that handicapped accessible cubicles, elevators with braille, etc are "luxuries". The whole point of the NYT article is that a private place should NOT be a luxury. I don't think any women are asking to be excused from work with pay to pump, but flex scheduling or even clocking out for some pumping time can be very helpful. Also, healthy women and children should be considered a social (not private) responsibility. For the mother, breast feeding lessens likelihood of excessive bleeding after childbirth and breast cancer later. For the baby, it builds the immune system, decreases likelihood of allergies, decreases risk of obesity. Since we all pay when others are sick, it really benefits us all to help prevent health problems.

Also, kudos to my federal agency: There's a special room for breastfeeding and/or pumping (esp. important for those of us without private offices) AND the employees who proposed it and got it set up won an award!

So we should be striving to make breastfeeding more socially acceptable and do it discreetly in public and pump in the office, but apparently "no one cares" if you set the example... so what's the point? You all are some contrary people today.

I'm finding this discussion of fairness and equity in the workplace to be ironic. Many of you are saying that bf-ing and bp-ing women in the workplace shouldn't get an extra hour of free time each day over and above what other employees get.

As one person said, "equal opportunity in the workplace being about equal benefits for all employees."

But weren't some of you the same ones taking me to task awhile back over equity in tuition benefits? I seem to recall being shouted down over the question of child-free people having to subsidize the enomously expensive educations of our coworkers' kids out of the benefits pool we all have to share. (And I wasn't even advocating against regular tuition remission.)

Wasn't it George Orwell who said that we're all equal, but some of us are more equal than others?

Father of 4, I've noticed that you like to slip a little sexual innuendo into most of your posts. I suspect you are an exhibitionist who gets a little thrill out of that sort of thing. Frankly, I find you a little sick.

---
"A real 'giant leap' in breast feeding would be to find a way for men to breastfeed."

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=117&art_id=ct20021030223759931B6231781&set_id=1

Sri Lankan widower breastfeeds his babies

---

Ok, a real giant leap would be to find away for men to breastfeed without killing off the mother or starving the baby.

Perhaps some pill that would induce it in men?

DadWannaBe, those are some great suggestions. It's true that while we can all afford to be a bit more flexible and sensitive to the needs of others, at some point personal responsibility has to take over, and mothers can't expect their companies to hold their hands all the way. You've pointed out some great ways to bridge the gap between what some mothers can't do (nurse during the day) and what some companies aren't willing to do.

Meesh, you've made a very good point. While by that definition, breasts are indeed a reproductive organ, they are still not copulatory and are not deserving of their hyper-sexualized status. One could argue that breasts are meant to attract a mate, and are therefore considered copulatory, but facial features, legs, buttocks, and body type all serve that purpose as well. Breasts are not a necessary anatomical appendage for copulation or reproduction, or even sustenance, so I think it's safe to say that the sexual taboo placed upon them is a bit overdone. And to argue that breasts serve to sustain offspring simply drives home my point that there's nothing wrong with tasteful, discreet breastfeeding in public, as they are not inherently sexual in nature.

Thanks, Pittypat: I have been paying taxes for the entire 41 years of my working life and about 50% of those taxes go toward public schools. Not to mention the families on welfare I'm supporting through my tax dollars. Food stamps, the WIC program at the grocery store, Section 8 housing, and who knows what other bennies the unemployed get out of my pocket. I may be childless by choice but I'm supporting a boatload of people with my taxes.

There is absolutely nothing gross about breast milk. It taste much better than cow's milk, even when it's warm.

I think your comparison of breastfeeding mothers and handicapped people is a little off. Breastfeeding mothers have the choices of not having a kid, not being at work, and not breastfeeding. Handicapped people do not have any choice not to be handicapped. For them, every second of their work is affected by their handicap. However, breastfeeding only impacts a woman's day a few times.

It's not discrimination (IMO) to not allow women to breastfeed at work, but it is discrimination to not hire handicapped people.

However, I think it would be in the employer's best interest to provide rooms and time for breastfeeding mothers because (a) it doesn't cost much in the long run (a spare room and a few minutes a day that could be made up another time for a year) and (b) it would improve morale and keep women in the work force. There are only good reasons to encourage pumping at work.

To breastfeeding alumna:

I don't agree. Not having handicapped facilities or work spaces prevents handicapped people from participating in the workplace. A handicapped person cannot work without these facilities. Hence they are necessities. Not having a space to pump or breastfeed in your workplace makes it more difficult but not impossible to participate in the workplace. They are not equivalent at all. If you had to live with any sort of physical impairment you would realize how unfair it is to try to compare not being able to work for a living due to a physical limitation vs not having the luxury of pumping in private. Try getting around in a wheelchair for a whole day or covering up your ears or eyes for a whole day and tell me if the difficulties of not having handicapped facilities is even close to not having a private location to pump. As I said, I think allowances should be made to allow pumping, just that employers and coworkers shouldn't have to bear the sacrifice unless they choose to do so as a benefit. That privacy is a luxury. Closer to having a gym facility in the office as a luxury/benefit. Yes, by encouraging employees to bf/pump or exercise will improve health in the long run and decrease medical costs, etc, but it should be a decision that the employer makes as a benefit to its employees and not mandated.

I applaud those workplaces that do provide facilities such as private rooms for mothers. I just don't think that workplaces should be shamed into providing them or requiring that these are necessities for supporting bf'ing mothers. Saying that workplaces without these are not family friendly is not fair. All I am saying is that as the person who made the choice to have a family, the sacrifice to make it work should be yours and not your employers or coworkers.

If it is your choice to be childless, why are you complaining about taxes? We all pay taxes for things we don't personally agree with... sorry that's part of living in America, which has pretty low taxes anyway.

pure poetry, fo4. thanks -

glad so many people get why bf-ing is such a big deal on so many levels -- in terms of health, legal protection, combining work and motherhood, and acceptance of motherhood.

i've been verbally attacked (by another mom) while breastfeeding and i've had to breastfeed in some pretty weird places. think things are getting better...

also helped me a lot when another mom explained that for a lot of women it is possible to bf only 1-2x per day (morning and night for instance) so that the baby can get some benefits without mom having to pump all the time. gotta be creative -- and easy on yourself -- in order to be a happy mom.

Comparing handicapped individuals and breast feeding mothers is ABSURD. Like it or not breast feeding is a choice, being handicap is not. As the daughter of a handicapped woman, I find this is belitting to the struggles of handicapped people in our society.

To Marc

You wrote, " Basically, women who use terms like *signaling* do things only to make a statement to other stupid, less educated, Prole-types. But what they fail to understand is that no one cares."

So what is the statement that I am trying to make?

Dadwanabe- you said exactly what I was thinking.

Of course women should be able to breastfeed or breastpump anywhere they choose. However, choosing to have a baby means choosing what that life entails, and choosing to work AND have a baby means making it work within BOTH worlds- you can't tell the baby to stop needing its milk and you can't tell the workplace to stop needing its stuff done or make special accommdations for your own personal time choices.

This column is about BALANCING- not about going all one way or the other.

"Breastfeeding mothers have the choices of not having a kid, not being at work, and not breastfeeding."

Not everyone can afford to not work for a living, not even if they're female and married with children. I also heard that sometimes having a kid isn't optional (birth control failure, lack of access to abortion, can't give up a baby for adoption because the spouse wants to keep the baby, etc.).

Not being able to pump while at work would be like not being allowed to pee all day. It's just not realistic! We all get bathroom breaks with varying degrees of formality; pumping breaks should be similar.

Whoa, there, Childless by Choice.

I'm merely making a reference to an intense discussion from a couple weeks back. Read some of my other posts, and you'll find that I'm completely in favor of all the social welfare programs you mention and also in favor of my taxes going to public schools.

My objection in all this is when MC and UMC folks get more resources simply because they have children they want to send to really expensive schools.

So, 'fraid I'm not part of your bandwagon, CbC. Those social programs are soooo important because they help the truly poor.

What some of you are not putting together are the facts about breastmilk making your baby healthier - and a healthy baby not needing their parents to take off work when they are sick! Bingo! So - the 20-30 minutes a day we spend pumping directly translates into not having to take days off for a sick baby! My children, (BF for 18 & 16 months) were rarely sick their first year of life becuase of my breastfeeding. Another girl in the office who didn't breastfeed was out everyother week with her son for as long as she worked there. In the beginning it was baby stuff, and later it was all sorts of ear-tube problems. Not saying this was becuase she didn't breastfeed - but the other bf mom and I had much healthier kids than her. Oh yeah - and she was a smoker - which last time I checked was a LIFETIME habit, while we are probably pumping for a maximum of 9 months! So - quit comparing apples to oranges. Focus on the apples and see all the good sides to it.

That being said, I've heard that one of the RN Associations allows you to bring your baby to the office for the first 6 months of life to promote breastfeeding. I only wish the medical association where I worked was so accomodating, instead, they insisted that people without offices pump in a bathroom, and - the COO once said to me "aren't you done with all that?" when my girl was only 5 months old.

Amy,

You said, "We all get bathroom breaks with varying degrees of formality; pumping breaks should be similar."

Do you routinely take 20-30 minutes for each of your bathroom breaks? That's a lot of time to pee!

"Not saying this was becuase she didn't breastfeed - but the other bf mom and I had much healthier kids than her."

Yes, you are. That's exactly what you're saying. Why deny it?

>>>So what is the statement that I am trying to make?>>>

Well d, you are making the statement below:

"So if you want to define yourself as a professional educated person, breastfeeding is one of the behaviors one could use to signal who you are or want to be."

You feel the need to clearly define yourself in the eyes of others and hopefully they are on message and can judge you the way you so desire.