Clever mean types with pens,Everywhere appearing as both cats and dogs.

James Wolcott's acid prose (and pose) toward family may sell more issues of the mag.

I admit to a sliver of curious pleasure about seeing a dad in one-dimensional stereotype, since moms have been such fodder for years.

But my larger reaction is relief that he is not my brother, colleague, or neighbor. He can sip all the lattes he wants, unfettered by children. I doubt he will be a Dunkin Donuts near me any time soon.

From Wikipedia: MEME
the term "meme" (IPA: [miːm], not "mem"), coined in 1976 by Richard Dawkins, refers to a unit of cultural information that can be transmitted from one mind to another. Dawkins said, Examples of memes are tunes, catch-phrases, clothes fashions, ways of making pots or of building arches. A meme propagates itself as a unit of cultural evolution analogous in many ways to the gene (the unit of genetic information).

I thought Leslie was going to stop the man-bashing, but instead posts a story that highlights a "daddy-war" so that the man-bashing can continue?

I am not condoning Wolcott's views, but question the posting of them after the past 2 days.

BTW: I am married to a MAD and his response to Wolcott - so what? Do most men sit around and worry/ponder what single men think of them as dads?

I think the Wikipedia reference is misguided. I prefer the dictionary. There, under the definition of narcissist, is a picture of Mr. Wolcott. It's not a flattering one.

BTW, "trade nanny horror stories with the other fellas?" Who does this?

Wolcott is clearly sarcastic, rather than vitriolic. I have a bachelor brother, maybe a confirmed bachelor (on verge of turning 43). I don't think it's the prospect of kids which is daunting to him, as he has begun to talk vaguely about wanting kids, and he's been an eccentric, if oft unavailable uncle to my own four boys. But it's the wife "meme" which is the sticking point. After living alone for this long, and developing very particular habits and tastes, not clear a wife fits into the picture that well. In addition, said brother lucked out and sold his internet company for $$$$$$$, allowing him to buy and fly airplanes, etc., so he has had the inevitable issue of who's a golddigger and who truly likes his mind and his soul.

I found Wolcott's piece infinitely more intellectually stimulating than a lot of these whining articles out there.

Speaking as a 46 year old husband who is trying to become a dad, the description Brian gave of a MAD (maybe minus the ballcap and jacket; not me) is EXACTLY what I see myself being, and I WANT that with all my being! Like cmac's husband said, so what if someone else thinks "that's not for me". It is what I WANT to do, and what someone else thinks makes zero difference to me.

Let them make their own decisions; I intend to be the fully involved and active dad that others have described. Daughter or son, I intend to raise them the same way; with humor, love, caring and helping them develop an interest and joy in everything around them as they grow and learn.

As someone who has no and plans on having no children, I had a completely different reaction to the piece - I actually chuckled and agreed, because this is one of the reasons that I don't want to have kids!

Good luck to John on becoming that and I will smile and love when I see you (as a child of divorce I LOVE seeing families out and about), but will be happy with my family of two (me and the hubby!)

And Brian, Vans *are* cool - I think the article was referring to those all white huge sole numbers, not super cool skater shoes!

great post, rd. i too found the intro to be the most intriguing part of the article -- maybe wolcott will explore this more fully in another piece. don't like what he's saying -- last thing we need is a Daddy War on top of the Mommy Wars -- but it's fascinating.

i disagree however with the line "Jonathan Cohn put up a blog post on the magazine's site earlier this year aptly noting that discussing Mommy Wars without daddy voices isn't likely to move the discussion very far." women don't need men in order to move a discussion forward -- this is an extremely retro view. sure, the discussion might go in different directions with men involved, but women are perfectly capable of engaging in robust, provocative debate without men around.

To Betty: Let me be clear ... I am all for an interesting discussion about whether to have kids at all, involving personal development and economics and the history of the family unit, etc. But Wolcotts instead chooses to paint a clownish picture of poor sods burdened with kids and then -- having admitted little interest in children -- basically lambastes Leslie book as boring. (It's not until talking about Linda Hirschman, who also has a dim view of parenthood, that Wolcott lights up.) I think I could have enjoyed -- and vehemently disagreed with -- a TNR piece on the peril of parenthood. Instead, we got warmed over Flanagan-bashing.

Here's my confession: I don't like ballet. Don't really understand it. While this is a perfectly fine and acceptible aversion, it would make me a lousy dance critic. Does the same go for writing about parenting? Even if you don't have kids, don't you have to be at least a little interested?

To Leslie: I hate to sound retro, but a work-life discussion (and that's what the Mommy Wars are, when you take the snarkiness out) that includes only women will have far, far less impact than one that includes men. I think that the discussion can be robust when only a segment of the population is involved, but when it comes to the hard work of shifting societal expectations, we need everyone on board: men, and women, blue collar and white collar, rural and urban, etc.

I am not a man, but I can't imagine that a ton of men out there roll their eyes at dads with strollers. I for one love to see men out with their kids. On Saturdays, my husband and I will read the paper at Starbucks and I love seeing the Dads giving Mom a break by hanging out with the kids.

I personally didn't see the paragraph as an attack on Dads or parenting. If it is, maybe it is that I just don't care.

Sounds more like a treatise on the narcism of the childless, if you ask me. All in all, it's a good thing that such self-centered elitist wannabees don't have children. Some genes just shouldn't be passed to the next generation.

As to the generational gap between the hands-off and the hands-on dads, there may have been a little tension during the initial shift when it was seen as being feminist inflicted but that's faded away.

As more father's take a more active part in the children's lives, they're finding out our precious and meaningful that time can be (of course, there were always some dads who did that, there's just more of us now).

When my wife went back to work after maternity leave, I changed by job schedule to a flexible afternoon schedule and shifted my Saturday off to a Monday. This put me into the role of primary care giver for the majority of the time for the next 18 months.

Those were the greatest 18 months of my entire life! It laid the groundwork for a relationship with my daughter that has only gotten stronger every day since.

rebeldad, I'm confused about your inference that Wolcott was mocking involved dads in comparison to the stereotypical old guard fathers who took a much less active role in their family lives. It seems to me that, in the piece quoted at least as I wasn't able to read the full article, Wolcott is actually endorsing a childfree life.

Some may see that as a fine point, but I see it as a big distinction. He's not saying men should get to have their cake and eat it too, i.e., get the benefits of a family with none of the hassles. He's saying (yes, in a sarcastic tone) that he vastly prefers a life without children.

Anyway, I just thought it was interesting that the default assumption in the posting was that two kinds of fathers were being contrasted when, in fact, the contrast seemed to have been between fatherhood and a childfree life.

rebeldad, your post to Betty makes it clear that part of your reaction to Wolcott was based upon having read the entire piece. My earlier post was in response to what I thought was your analysis of just the portion quoted; I see now that it might have been off-base. Mea culpa!

Dad with Kids from A-Z : "BTW, 'trade nanny horror stories with the other fellas?' Who does this?"

LOL! Yeah, here's one of beautiful moments when the author reveals that he has no knowledge at all about the topic (kinda like when a gun control advocate starts wailing about a hunting rifle, calling it an "assault weapon").

If he'd had take 10 minutes to actually interview a couple of hands-on dads, he would have found that all of our stories are about how it's so cool when they learn something new or you find a game you can play between the two of you that the kid thinks is great fun.

I am not sure I see the description of MAD's as being particularly vitriolic at all. The author just seems to be stating that shuttling "sticky" kids around is not something he finds appealing. So what? As a father myself, I enjoy pushing my often sticky son around in a stroller quite a bit, but there are also times when I wouldn't mind sipping a latte or sitting in a wine bar without having to worry about picking up any sippy cups, too!

What I read this as is the worry that people lose themselves and what makes them unique after they have kids. They become a ridiculous abbreviation or acronym (MAD or SAHM or WOHM) instead of individuals.

I think it's what a lot of people fear, and it's interesting for me to see that men are dealing with it too. It's a sign that men are interested in becoming more involved in child rearing.

I don't think it's particularly offensive--many women offer the same kinds of reasons for not wanting kids. It's just this author's opinion.

Process and civility comment ALERT.

Betty -- your affirmation of how your family will be AND affectionate acceptance of what John intends is a model for how we could interact on this blog.

Note to John: Dockers and Rockports can be cool. Happy daddies project coolness despite diaper bags, clunky strollers, minivans, and the like.

Men with babies! Marilyn Monroe noted the special sexiness of a lapful of babies.

MAD = 2d time around trying to "get" fatherhood right (you know, after destroying first marriage through (fill in the blank ..infidelity, emotional remoteness, combination of both) or divorced first wife because (again ..fill in blanks .. no kids, no attraction, "trading up"). I think it's pretty funny becasue MAD is actually more a reflection on the devaluation of women (i.e., once their looks go or become too much mother, less wife, they get ditched) than any attempt by men to get parenthood right.

To Brian, I think we just interpreted the piece differently, perhaps because of our respective "child status" - you see him essentially making fun of Dads, while I see it as him outlining what I have no desire to do (as a woman, I guess I am looking beyond the Mom/Dad thing and look at the parent).

I think your comment about him writing about parenting is very interesting, especially if he is the person addressing the so-called Daddy Wars in this "Mommy Wars" issue of the magazine, but I also think that any conversation about parenting should also include those people who have chosen not to parent. I lurk here, childless, because as a woman, I am concerned with giving women choices to decide when/if/how to have children, so maybe I do care about children, in general, just not mine.

To TC: Your point is well-taken, even if you read the whole piece. We are talking about two distinct kids of men (distant fathers and the childless or childfree or whatever). I group 'em together, however, because of the shared lack of interest in the childrearing process. Still, I agree that it is a distinction worth making.

To College Parkian: I'd love to see the Marilyn Monroe quote, if you've got it.

To Betty: Good point about discussions involving *all* types, but -- my jibes about tweed to the contrary -- mocking what you don't understand is probably not the best way to open a thoughtful dialogue.

That as much as the blogers Achenblog are making fun of us over there, they are the clickest blogers I have ever read! It's like they speak their own language or something and they are the only ones in an inside joke.

At least over here people can understand the conversation, even if it sometimes gets nasty.

Betty, That was precisely what I was trying to get at, but you said it so much better!

Rufus points out exactly why I am a little afraid of being a parent. As a childless person, I love it when I have friends/family who have children. It is wonderful to be an aunt to so many little ones. None of my childless friends say anything bad about our parent friends or slap down their decision. But, on this board many, but not all, parents slam down other's choices. It is not a click I want to belong to.

FWIW, I am not elitist or self centered. I just think things through and to me the decision to have a child should be the one decision I think through the most. If it was easy for you to come to the decision, awesome. But, it is not that way for everyone.

To Thought - I could have written that myself. I get tired of being labeled as "selfish" or "elitist" because I chose not to have children. But, I am very involved in the lives of my nieces and nephews! Couldn't that be part of "balance" - helping others with their kids? Because I don't have kids, I usually have more time and energy to contribute.

rebeldad, Thanks for the response, and I see your point. However, there is a pretty huge distinction between uninterested/uninvolved parents and the childfree. The first group has created human beings they are failing to nurture; the second has simply chosen a different kind of life.

Brian, I'm not sure that this piece is a salvo in the Daddy Wars so much as it is another example of some not-quite-mature pseudo-intellectual who delights in pointing at another and squealing, "look at me, I'm better than them."

While I think that women often feel as if they are singled out for family-related scrutiny by those males who have an influential voice in society (employers, journalists, etc), it is also true that men have cast ugly aspersions towards each other routinely since the beginning of time.

This same guy who says, "look at those suckers" when he sees us wipe our baby's chin probably feels a pang of jealousy when he sees us join the coaching staff on our son's varsity football team or proudly applaud our daughter's first-place prize in the science fair.

To me this is an extension of the simple fool who drives past his neighbor mowing the lawn while he's on his way to his third round of golf this week. ("Glad I'm not tied down like that sucker!") I hope I'll die fulfilled, satisfied with my life choices. Something tells me that this guy has an emptiness inside that he fills with critiques of others. Well, have at it buddy. I hope that's a comfort to you when you reflect on your own life....

-Pp.

(PS - Stinks to have these guys as bosses. I had one and had to quit.)

To TC - Thanks - I was just about to say the same thing. Absent parents and childless people are very different.

Missicat has a great point. I think that those of us without children can most certainly help balancing the lives of those with children. Very well said. Since I am in my 30's, and really past the crazy party days, I would gladly stay in and babysit, for free, on a Saturday night so my friends with children can go out. I'll just bring my husband and a movie. No biggie. Also, I have been planning momthly "girls afternoons", which are suitable for those with and without kids. So everyone can see each other and those with kids don't need to plan anything. (And, everyone helps with the kids). Win, win.

TC, I agree that there is a HUGE distinciton between those men who don't take care of their kids and those who don't have them. At least the latter was able to be mature and honest with themselves before bringing a child they don't want to care for into this world. Very sad.

To TC: Excellent, excellent distinction. I won't soon make that error again.

I think there is nothing more cool than being a dad, the kids think dad is a larger than life superhero. If this author doesn't want kids, then any potential kids of his are better off not being born. As others have said, he's making fun of something he doesn't understand. I think he's pitiful, and doesn't deserve any attention.

In order to appreciate the content on the Achenblog, you'll have to have a much higher IQ than the average person on this blog, or you won't be able to get it.

Also, you might think they are clicky, but they seem to me a tight knit group of people that welcome others, and for heaven's sake, they aren't hostile to their handicapped members.

Oh, I get it, you have to be a pompus you know what and point out that you think everyone over here has a low IQ. I didn't say it was bad, I said it was clicky and that their code words were hard to get.

I didn't make fun of father of 4 either, so now you should really feel like an ass.

Just piggybacking on Thought and Missicat: People choose not to have kids for many reasons, not just because they want to avoid being "tied down." I read once how having children will provide you the greatest joy and the greatest pain in your life. I don't know if I could stand the pain part: watching a child go through the various traumas and disappointments we all encounter growing up, being hurt, god-forbid being seriously ill or injured. I also have health issues that make me fearful of having children.

"Also, you might think they are clicky, but they seem to me a tight knit group of people that welcome others, and for heaven's sake, they aren't hostile to their handicapped members."

That's handiCAPABLE members. And he's not blind, he's partially sighted. And he's not sexist, he's merely expressing his unique viewpoint on female sexuality. Thank you.

I agree there is a difference between the uninvolved and the childless. However, the involved and the childless who tend to look down on parenting (which is definitley not all people without children) can have a strong impact on the ability of parents to achieve balance. They are the bosses we complain about who schedule meetings at 5:00pm, don't like telecommuting,etc.
Story - I used to work with a man who was very involved in little league. One afternoon I heard two other men, fathers no less, talking about this man. He was leaving early to go coach a game. (It should be noted that he had worked the previous weekend, something he did regularly) They were surprised that he was going to do this. I am paraphrasing, but one said "thats not a good excuse" and the other agreed. Personally I thought he was being a good father and as he and his staff were meeting all their deadlines I didn't see an issue.
As long as men are subject to be derided for being involved dads, as Rebel Dad's blog suggests this article is doing, it will be hard for them to achieve balance and if the dads can't achieve balance it is that much harder for the moms.

I, too, am tired of the 'elitist' or 'selfish' stereotyping that gets tacked onto people who don't have (or want) kids. I don't have kids and I do not want to have kids. So, why does someone have to attack that? If people want to have kids, great; if they don't, is it really any skin off anyone's back?

I don't have kids because, quite honestly, none of it appeals to me, and it never has. Not everyone is made to be a parent -- including those who DID have kids and shouldn't have.

Parents/non-parents will never get along while we call each other names over personal decisions.

"Some may see that as a fine point, but I see it as a big distinction. He's not saying men should get to have their cake and eat it too, i.e., get the benefits of a family with none of the hassles. He's saying (yes, in a sarcastic tone) that he vastly prefers a life without children."

Exactly. Isn't an "I don't like looking after kids so I won't have kids" attitude much less selfish than an "I don't like looking after kids so I'll ignore my kids and leave all the childcare work to my wife" attitude?

I'm not sure we should be backslapping the MAD's who are trying to get a "do over" with a second family when they have left a path of destruction with the first family. There was a comment that a childless man might feel superior because he is not tied down. I think that comment was ironic considering the noxious odor of superiority that tends to ooze from women with children who lord over the fact that they have kids over women who do not ...

Rockports! Thank you, whoever you are, that mentioned that name. I bought a pair when I was pregnant with my first kid. Sent from heaven, I swear. Now my kid wears etnies (they look strange--I would rather wear vans--but really, vans are SLIP-ONS!). Did anyone read the article about kids and their t-shirts yesterday? They all said "I don't care what anyone thinks about me!" I almost snorted coffee out my nose when I read that. If there is one truism about teens, is that they are for the most part pack animals and they do care. Tremendously. Strangely, most teens do not think about other teens longer than a nano-second because they are all thinking about themselves! As for the topic today, it seemed rather tongue-in-cheek to me. Does anyone really care that some people are choosing not to have kids? This is a good thing. It's hard work having kids, even if they do bring you joy. Besides, if we all had kids then the schools would be REALLY overcrowded. Thanks to you childless homeowners whose tax money is propping up our schools. I hope my child will be the doctor who saves your life in 20 years! Leslie, I for one am begging for you to come up with topics that are actually helpful and not just fodder for venomous discussions. Let's tackle some things that keep us off balance. How about books that made a difference to us? Any 'a-HA' moments we had? What is the one thing that we do that is most effective in making sure our week goes smoothly? What are our own personal mantras for keeping our cool when the kid is in meltdown, traffic is stopped, the sitter is calling wondering when we are coming home, etc? Who do we see as our balanced idols? What does a balanced life essentially LOOK like? (fyi, it's not mine, so don't look over here cause I watch way too much television).

I feel compelled for some unknown reason to tell anyone who is suffering the joy of having small children that soon you will sleep through the night, have alone time, and go to work feeling fine. It's temporary."The days last forever and the years fly by." (some lady in the grocery store). I guess I would have really liked it if someone had told me that while I was in the thick of it.

"I think that comment was ironic considering the noxious odor of superiority that tends to ooze from women with children who lord over the fact that they have kids over women who do not ..."

Not just women either. A while ago I heard of girls with children who praise themselves for not "taking the easy way out" and think they're better than girls who don't have children.

Guys, let's just not go here - it's foolish. Make the wisest decisions you can about your life, then live it. If another man

I just don't get the "feeling superior" issue..I don't feel I am superior for not having kids, nor do I think parents are superior to me...we have just chosen different paths for our lives. There are sometimes I wonder what my life would be like if I had children of my own, but I guess I am lucky because I still have kids in my life. It's much easier having children with the support of a large family!

Come on, Brian. I haven't read the entire article but the exceprt you quoted doesn't come close to vitroilic. It's funny. I'm currently childless (although I'd like to be a parent). And the reaon this is funny to me is because it pokes fun at the life-changing and cool-factor-diminshing aspects of parenthood. Let's face it. Parenting isn't cool. It's about earnestness and caring and self-sacrifice. And that's OK. In fact, it's as things should be.

One thing I've noticed about my friends who've had kids is that they undergo a personality shift (away from openness and toward rigidity) once the little ones arrive. It's endearing when a new mom or dad, faced with enormity of parenting, can maintain a sense of humor about how he or she is changing in the midst of what must be a bewildering experience

Don't worry though, just because you're uncool doesn't mean you're unloveable or unsmart or uncute. You're probably still all three.

Re: Parenting isn't cool....

I just don't buy that. You can say that parenting *sometimes* isn't cool. 3am this morning comes to mind. Lost pacifiers are an emergency to be handled via screeching. Definitely not cool.

On the other hand, my 15 month old baby boy approached a girl of similar age yesterday and pointed at her, smiled, and said "Girl!".

Chip off the old block. Very cool.

Guys, let's just not go here - it's foolish. Make the wisest decisions you can about your life, then live it. The fact that other men make different decisions about there lives is no reason for you to start second guessing your own.

You have to have a higher IQ to understand the Achenblog? Troll alert, folks. They are talking about traffic over there. And population. Nothing profound like to breastfeed or not to breastfeed!

Wolcott is just recycling the age-old "Bohemian is better than bourgeois" jibe that arises ina thousand forms. City vs. suburb, cuisine vs. comfort food, art vs. pop. He's not really writing about kids or dads at all; he's just showing off his own desire to feel superior to someone else.

To parttimer - off topic, but not all vans are slip-ons!!! The ones I have (which are the greatest sneakers that I have ever bought!) are normal, tie sneakers. I'm not even sure if they still sell the slip-ons anymore! :)

Wolcott's article reveals a great deal about him.

He has very low self esteem, and believes that he'd be the worst role model and father in the history of the world. He doesn't feel like he has anything to offer a child, and fears that his offspring might turn out like himself- a first class jerk.

What's wrong with Wolcott's expressing his views on men with children. My husband and I have no problem with people with no children making fun of us for being a "breeder" (oh there's that word again). I will happily listen to commentary from people with no kids any day. Because at one point, I agreed with them. Having kids isn't for everyone. People have the right to voice their opinion, lord knows all the parents on this blog do.

I would however present Wolcott with the New York Magazine's article on 30-something parents as an alternative to the helicopter MADs with horrible fashion sense.

(http://nymag.com/news/features/16529/index.html)

Hip men have kids too! My husband wouldn't be caught dead wearing sports shoes or apparel unless exercising or a cell phone holster.

This is interesting? Some people don't want to have kids. Shocking. If they were actively preventing other people from having children that would be one thing, but this doesn't effect anyone but themselves in the end.

For those of you out there that take issue with childless people as being uncaring, insensitive, narcissistic, etc.... just be happy they aren't procreating and either giving life to a mirror image of themself or worse, neglecting the child.

The only difference between comedy and drama is perspective-- same goes towards views of parenthood. Parents and non-parents are seeing the same things a lot of the time, but in a much different light.

Also, to whoever might suggest that it's a one-sided narcissistic view on behalf of the non-parents, people who have children can be ungodly self-absorbed themselves, its just human nature. Nothing... NOTHING has more value than me at this moment because I.HAVE.A.CHILD.

The terms "James Wolcott" and "intellectual heft" do not belong in the same sentence (unless separated by "lack of"). He's made his choice and good for him.

"Is there really a meaningful population of men out there who roll their eyes at today's involved father?"

In response to your question, Brian, I think that, yes, there is. My husband sees it at work frequently. I can't tell you how many times he's had to deal with higher-ups (with and without children) in his company who simply assume that he will make himself available to them 24/7, even though he has a working wife and 2 children. When he dares to explain that no, he can't go to Germany tomorrow because his wife is in the middle of a trial/business trip/etc... the reaction is usually stunned disbelief. And his attempt to help keep my life more balanced subtly hurts his career.

Are all bosses and all people like this? Of course not. But they do exist, male and female, childless or not. I guess I don't see it necessarily in terms of a Mommy War or a Daddy War, but a war over whether the current generation of parents can choose to have different priorities.

http://lawyermama.blogspot.com

Off topic too, I never wore vans and when I tried to pick out a pair of Nikes for my nephew during school shopping he said he wanted vans. I must be uncool.

On topic, I find it strange that men who don't want children would analyze men who do so much? My husband doesn't say, gee I wonder why so and so didn't have a kid? I just don't get it and Brian, just like women, men have to stand up and say that flexibility and family are important to them as well in the work place. I mean if we start standing together, how can the people who put up road blocks keep us down?

Proud Papa, it's great to hear those words that the little ones say. I used to get a kick out of my little girl when she would say purple.

Getting sucked in. Sometimes you hear people make remarks about your choices, whether you have had kids or not. They will judge your hair, shoes, car and pet. These are not people who are allowed to make you feel bad. These are people who annoy you because they don't use their turn signal and suck up more than their fair share of air! They just haven't traveled long enough on the road of life to 'get it.' Your sweet revenge? Living the life you want on your terms, regardless if it involves kids. And the fact that somewhere down the line, if this person is hitting Maslow's peak, they will feel bad about saying snarky, thoughtless and judgemental things about how whole groups of people live their lives. Thank you to all of you who don't live like me. This society needs you. And if you all lived like me, it would be much harder to find the stuff I like on sale. One more thing--it is uncool to even think about being cool. Cool people just ARE. Remember hush puppies?

Five - that made me laugh outloud!

Reminds me of my sister, who insisted no children be invited to her wedding (there really weren't any in the family at the time, so it was not a huge deal), but now gets so annoyed when she is invited to weddings without HER two kids! As a good younger sister, I always make sure to remind her of her wedding guest list! :)

We need to start calling this blog "On Vitriol". I swear, it's becoming the most overused word here.

It just struck me that I don't think I'd seen it used here before, but as of a few days ago, it seems like it pops up about every other post.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Off topic: Wore vans in the 80s. Wore vans while pregnant. Slip-on vans and pregnancy work very well together. No bending over to tie your shoes and they accommodate swelling feet. Vans rock.

To Friend: I was way uncool before I had kids. Most anyone who knew me in college will vouch for that.

But look, if Wolcott wants to say that men (or women) become vapid, fashion-impaired and child-obsessed once they have kids, bully for him. But once you say that, it really diminishes your ability to prattle on for 3,000 words about the state of modern parenthood (using words like "gnostic" and "declamatory") and be taken seriously on the subject.

Daddy Wars? The Underwear Strikes Back? Return of the Dadi? Oh God, A New Hope?

Go no further that the foibles of Oscar Madison and Felix Unger to see America's nostalgic take on what happens to the rebachelor once ejected from nuclear familial bliss. Anybody else out there celebrate Felix Unger Day?

The unparent I guess is just sick of the venting of moms and dads that are jealous of the choices the unencumbered enjoy. But I do fail to see how this snarky article can be added to the bullet point list of reasons not to be a parent.

I was bemused by the tone of the article, another instance of a writer venting his/her own insecurity on life choices but putting somebody else's choices down.

Oh - If you only put water in sippy cups - they never get sticky. All that corn syrup fortified "juice" is sugar garbage food and deserves blame for the obesity epidemic. Jerk. But I mean that in the nicest way.

The chosen childless are welcome to help with balance, as long as there is some track record and they have a clue what they are doing. We always LOVE having our kids manners criticized at Thanksgiving by the partimers yet temporary experts: SNARK.

Leslie said 'women don't need men in order to move a discussion forward -- this is an extremely retro view. sure, the discussion might go in different directions with men involved, but women are perfectly capable of engaging in robust, provocative debate without men around.'

Eureka! Leslie is nasty and snarky, simple minded and not willing to consider and respect other people's points of view. This blog exists merely to perpetuate the mommy wars so people buy her stupid book. I've had enough. Brian Reid needs his own blog, he is an intelligent and thoughtful writer.

Really??? I can't believe it. That just sounds--sacreligious. Tie on vans? What next? Slip on doc maartens? I feel strangely...like shopping. My etnie wearing kid is now wearing the same size shoe I am (and it ain't small! I had to go through 2 pregnancies to get feet this big!) so maybe I will wear them to work some time. Slip on docs. Maybe there is a business opportunity here...

Perhaps what the author is really expressing is in some way his disgust for the media saturation on parenting issues.

America really has become EXTREMELY child-centric, and I think we've all seen examples of people treating parenting as something of a sacred calling, and occasionally using the fact that they have children to (a.) push their way to the front of the line (can you say screaming baby in a post office?) (b.) take what might be perceived of as more than their fair share of resources (c.) boss other people around (policing the music others listen to in public or even the language they use because "there are children around" comes to mind. Actually, I heard someone use the phrase "hummer mom" recently for one of these ladies who uses the fact that she has kids to literally roll over everyone else -- and I knew exactly what the author meant.

Heck, our local YMCA has 'Mommy and Baby' parking spaces next to the handicapped spaces, and you can only use them if you have a toddler. And I can see how on a cold, rainy day someone else might think it's not fair.

Perhaps what the author is describing is not so much the opening salvo in the daddy wars, as a societal backlash against the 24 hour a day "all sticky kids all the time" American parenting atmosphere.

And yes, I do expect to get bashed for these sentiments -- but I also believe them.

"The usual" Proud Papa did not write the 10am post.

To alex. mom: Nothing wrong with Wolcott expressing his views. I still don't understand why those view were worth the space and prominence that TNR gave him. His piece, in a nutshell, went like this: "I don't understand the attaction of kids. Don't plan to have any. Think parenthood is for suckers. Now here's my extensive analysis of three books on parenthood."

To all: I wear the lace-up skateboard-style vans with the thick soles. I am probably too old to wear such footwear. And I don't particularly care.

I'm going shopping for some vans. and some rockports. and maybe some cigarettes and HFCS drinks. Living life on the edge might make me cooler!

You totally need kids at weddings. It's the ten year olds who take pity on the wall flowers and get them out on the dance floor. So now that your sister has traveled the road a little longer, how does she feel about her pronouncement? What does she say when you remind her about it? Little sisters rock. I am one. But big sisters do too, cause I have one.

Brian -
Why does Walcott's preamble (funny or offensive depending on your P.O.V.) diminish his ability to prattle on for 3,000 words about the state of modern parenthood?

but..but...isn't it the RIGHT Of the childfree to criticize they way people parent? *snicker*

(just a joke...don't flame me!)

"That as much as the blogers Achenblog are making fun of us over there, they are the clickest blogers I have ever read! It's like they speak their own language or something and they are the only ones in an inside joke."

Not sure what a "clickest bloger" is. Do you guys have your own special language on this blog?

If you spend a little time, have a little patience, and open your mind to learning something, it's very easy to get into the patter of Achenblog. But it takes more than a cursory look to "get it." If you're in a hurry to dismiss it, you won't get anything from it.

To Armchair Mom: If Wolcott had said what you posted -- something I disagree with but find fascinating and not indefensible -- I'd be the first in line to buy my copy. But he didn't. Instead, he gave us some snarky digs at Leslie's book, a thoroughly unoriginal critique of Flanagan, and heaps of praise (though not much depth) on Linda Hirshman.

To experienced mom: I do have my own blog: www.rebeldad.com, though I fear that if you start reading it, you'll find I'm not as intelligent and thoughtful as a I am here. I save my best stuff for you guys. :)

"you have to be a pompus you know what"

A "pompus you know what"? Huh? At least over there, they have a glossary of the shorthand they use so that anyone can feel included.

Brian - Now I COMPLETELY understand where you are coming from!! The small blurb loses something without the whole article. It is quite curious that he is writing on parenting and that they selected him to do such an article. Bizarre.

I agree with Armchair Mom - there are many people that are way too child-centric. I hate to walk from a far away space in the parking lot, wait in line, be polite, etc. when I was little, and I turned out okay!

So, yes, you all might see me when I won't let Johnny skip the line because he is a kid and my nieces and nephews know that when they are in my car, we listen to Aunt X's music (I make sure that the songs with the F-bomb don't get played) and not *their* music (b/c singing and dancing to "If I had a million dollars" with a 5 and 6 year old in the back seat is much more fun than singing about some wheels on a bus.

"What I read this as is the worry that people lose themselves and what makes them unique after they have kids. They become a ridiculous abbreviation or acronym (MAD or SAHM or WOHM) instead of individuals."

Meesh, once again, I think you're right on. I remember being so afraid of losing part of myself when I first had a baby, of ceasing to exist as "Laura" and being subsumed into "mommy." And a lot of that was the soccer mom stereotype -- I freaked out about replacing my 2-door car with a 4-door (minivan was out of the question!!), and in the end just could NOT bring myself to buy a Subaru wagon, simply because it epitomized the whole "soccer mom" meme.

I think a lot of those worries are due to inexperience -- once you get there, you realize that you're still you, and the trappings just don't matter so much (tho I still won't buy a minivan!).

I think the tone of the article, though, also shows a good degree of immaturity -- it reminds me of junior high, where the only way to feel good about yourself was to try to put down everyone else, and being a smarta$$ was a highly treasured skill. Most people grow out of that phase, and realize that even if a particular role or persona doesn't work for them, it works just fine for others -- i.e., not better or worse, just different. I haven't read the article, but from Brian's description, it sounds like this guy didn't.

I will say, though, that I'm happy we're having this conversation about dads. There has been such huge focus on the soccer mom meme for so many years that it's just really tiring; it's nice to have some similar conversations about and with dads (in other words, nice to know my husband and other dads were/are going through the same thing I was!).

clickest

clique
cliquey or cliquy (dictionary.com)
cliqueyest? cliquiest?

To Thought and Missicat: No, not every person who chooses not to have a child is "selfish" or "elitist"! Many make the choice for very intelligent and laudable reasons.

It was NOT easy for me to come to the decision to have children, but I eventually came to a point in my life when I was ready.

Afterwards, I used to chastise myself for not having children sooner as it was working out so well, but I had to remind myself of the fact that it would not have worked out so well if I had made the step without being ready to assume all of the responsibilities that came with it.

If you say you aren't ready, I believe you.

Not sure what a "clickest bloger" is. Do you guys have your own special language on this blog?

I think you know what I am saying, you are just being dissmisive. They seem to have their own click!

"In order to appreciate the content on the Achenblog, you'll have to have a much higher IQ than the average person on this blog, or you won't be able to get it.

Also, you might think they are clicky, but they seem to me a tight knit group of people that welcome others, and for heaven's sake, they aren't hostile to their handicapped members."

Ok, I usually don't weigh in on these sorts of things, but just can't resist this time. If you're going to brag about the high IQ on the Achenblog, you might want to learn to spell "cliquey."

Betty: I don't particularly like kids at weddings - before I had them and now that I have 2 - particuraly if it is formal wedding. I admit I like getting out with my husband at an "adult only" event and not have to chase rugrats around.

Having said that, my kids were in a family wedding 3 years ago and were excellent. However there were 2 sets of grandparents, countless aunts and uncles and cousins to help out with them. They are in a friends wedding in 3 weeks and it will not be the same - they won't know as many people and I think they will be a bit bored, so I am having them picked up by grandma after the reception starts swinging. I would not have been the least bit irritated if either the family or friend wedding asked for "no children."

It is nice to get the kids dressed up and they get tons of accolades, but they are still kids and like to slide across the dance floor (which I find irritating) and generally need something every 10 minutes. Again, being out with my husband all gussied up is pretty nice.

To parttimer - she just kind of rolls her eyes at me, but I make my point. I don't think that she'll admit that she's changed. She's a great mom and (BIL is a great dad) - have really achieved, in my opinion, of a good balance.

Okay, I HAVE to get back to work!

to armchair mom: I agree with the whole child-centric thing. My sister and I both gripe about how our houses are too child centric. We could step back a foot or three here and possibly not lose any ground. But even if I am without my kids, which is usual these days, I don't particularly care to listen to people spewing obscenities, blaring music with lyrics that make Paris Hilton blush, or inhale smoke w/o a filter when I quit! Those activities are offensive to people who don't have kids, or don't have them with them, as well. At a recent sporting event this little gem was overheard: "she gave me an awesome xxx000 on Saturday night." Why do I need to hear that? Would you like to hear a play by play of my private life? I am going to go with "NO".

Those hummer moms would be hummer something else if they didn't have kids. I think that is more of a personality trait. And the family parking spots are suggestions, not law. I wish there had been some when I was toting two small kids. I am kind of glad they are there to help someone else out. Of course, I did feel like parking in one recently. I didn't, but was tempted. And it wasn't even raining!

you have to be a pompus you know what"

Children are way more fun than adults. I can't think of anything more boring than sitting around with adults trying to impress each other with their intelligence and wit.

Parenthood may be grueling, but life with kids is boring.

Hummer Moms?

God Bless 'em.

Where is Fo4 anyway? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Parttimer,

I agree with you that people who don't' have kids would be annoyed with smoke and a play by play of last nights shenanigans, I know I don't care to hear it.

I am also not bothered by the mommy parking spaces. I always park far away and walk to the store. What bothers people about these spaces? Is it that they are close or is it that they feel discriminated against? I'm just wondering.

Parenthood may be grueling, but life withOUT kids is boring.

To Laura--further evidence of my lack of cool. I CRAVED a minivan. I now lust after certain models. My current one only carries 7. If I had an 8 seater, we could fit more friends! While my kids don't play soccer and I missed the whole 'soccer mom' thing (was in Europe for several years), I get a perverse thrill out of my van. My husband has a sedan. It is a nice change of pace, but he freaks if there is even ONE wrapper on the floor. My best friend has an suv that seats five. We always have to take my car when we go anywhere together with the kids (not that I mind--I like driving; is it the control freak in me?). She also swore no minivan, but after ten years of this, she is beginning to soften. Look at the minivan, with the automatic sliding doors, fold-under seats, multitude of cupholders! It calls your name. You try to resist. You know it is a great tool and makes your job easier and more convenient (trust me on this--those automatic side doors are AWESOME!). Follow the light, Laura.

Man, I am really, really, REALLY leaving now.

Just a few thoughts today:
1. Whoever posted the slate article yesterday on NNTs - that was a FANTASTIC article.
2. This article is "funny" in the same way the Fortune article on "Don't Marry a Working Woman" was "funny." I guess I have no sense of humor.
3. I have to side with Rebeldad on the retro argument. If women exclude or even sideline men in the mommy-wars/daddy-wars/work-life balance wars, we'll end up "trying to have it all." If you really want to be able to work, have a kid, etc. without going insane, then expect your husband not to "help out" or "give you a break," but carry his own weight. And explain to him why he should carry his own weight.

re: kids at weddings--next spring at our wedding, ALL kids are invited, and i don't care if they cry or talk or giggle during the ceremony. they're all my family or the kiddies of my close friends, so to me they add to the happiness. my soon-to-be niece, 10 years old, is going to be my one bridesmaid, and her excitement and joy at being part of this day is infectious. my honorary 6-year-old niece is on the ceiling about being flowergirl and seeing her "aunt" get married. and my 3-year-old godson asked if he could be my "ring baron" before we were even engaged. child-free wedding? no way!

The only thing I find annoying about the no kids at the wedding is if they pick and choose the kids, but you don't find this out until you get there. One of my cousins got married and she said no kids, when we got there, there were lots of kids. I think it causes hurt feelings becuase my sister was, like I thought it was no kids?

Sometimes I get really irked by people who make a nasty comment, is a smarty tone of voice, cackle as if the last phrase was a punch line and then say something like this, "Jeeze, don't be so uptight! I was only joking."

As if. Fake nice people=really dangerous. At least the forthright dont sugar coat their opinions.

Scarry - sometimes that is not the fault of the couple....there are lots of folks who think the "no kids" does not apply to them!
My older niece was my bridesmaid and she made our pictures just priceless! My younger niece (5 years old) grabbed people out to dance on the dancefloor...she was hysterical! Kids can really make a wedding...

I can't wait for MAD's to be replaced by SAD's (senior adult dads) ...you know the Tony Randall and Donald Trump types who ply us with children well into their 60s and 70s ...

I still don't understand why those view were worth the space and prominence that TNR gave him. >>>

Why give space and prominence to parenting articles or Mommy Wars? TNR has a wide audience and probably like to represent all voices and lifestyles.

I agree with armchair mom.

I really wish there were some child-free spaces. It seems that no matter where you go, someone brings their kids. When I was younger, I remember my parents going out and telling my sisters and I that we couldn't accompany them to dinner because it was a "grown-up" restaurant (and no, they weren't going to hooters or a strip club). I really don't have anything against children, but I do think they have their places, and as a whole, the country is forgetting that.

I totally agree that kids make weddings fun, that wedding was the only one that said no kids. I think my sister felt singled out, but you make a good point about people thinking it doesn't apply to them.

Parttimer -- "Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage, against the dying of the light." Noooooo, not a minivan! Anything but that!!! :-)

Not that I ever had any coolness or hipness to worry about losing, either. . . .

I feel sorry for the children of parents who put their careers ahead of their families. I also feel sorry for those parents because they are missing out on some crucial time with their children.

Several years ago, while I was working one of my whacky schedules that allowed me to maximize my time with my daughter, I got offered a managerial promotion that would have required a strict 8-5 work schedule. When I turned it down, the CIO immediately offered me more money and I had to explain to him that there wasn't enough money in the world to make me miss the Father-Daughter breakfast at my daughter's preschool. He looked at me incredulously for a minute then smiled and shook my hand, saying "I wish I would have done that 15 years ago."

Betty, Friend, and other childless posters- I cannot believe that people call you elitist and selfish for not having children. That is just bizarre to me. I totally respect my friends who chose not to have children, and they are wonderfully supportive and helpful to us now that we have a child. I guess some people will always find a reason to judge.

Rebeldad, just wanted to say that I totally agree that a conversation about work-life balance that doesn't include men will not go very far, I think saying we don't need men is very shortsighted. No matter how you describe the goals for women - more flexibility in their jobs, more time to pursue their careers, more choices - getting there involves changes for both men and women. I think we won't see a more equal balance until both men and women feel committed to the idea and emboldened to pursue it.

Parttimer, thanks for your comments to parents of small children, I really, really needed to hear that tody!

1) Who cares what he thinks??? I mean really, if he doesn't want kids for what ever reason, then don't have them.
2) Parents aren't cool! I can't think of anything more cool then having someone think you literally rise and set the sun just for them.
3) Kids aren't meaningful. whatever. To me, my kid is the best thing that could ever happen to me. She has taught me so much about the power and capacity to love beyond anything I could imagine.
4) Let those who don't want to parent alone. I think parenting is best done by those who initially start off wanting to.
5) Involved fathers is a bad thing. Get real. Would Wolcott rather have a bunch of men populate the planet and sit the kids alone in a corner to rot. He sounds like a jerk.
6) Achenblog readers need to be of a higher then average intelligence. "Clouds are hard." Get real. Sounds like a bunch of people thinking they are so deep, philosophical, and abstract. In reality, they sound like a bunch of teenagers who forgot to take their ADD medication. Now, I imagine most of them are really rather normal people but a few bad apples give them a bad rap. In fact, I read yesterdays Achenblog and Achen himself said do not go on to other blogs and tout how great we are. It only makes us look vein.

On parenthood and coolness - I knew I was completely uncool when we took our son to one of my husband's band's gigs - it was an outdoor festival, perfect chance to get out. My son was just starting solids and I brought some cheerios. I'm sitting there chatting with the band guys, who I used to hang out and drink and laugh with all night before our son came along, when my son spits up some cheerios and without thinking, I reached out and caught it in my hand so it wouldn't get all over both of our clothes. The looks on their faces - oh, how much more uncool can you get? I was grossed out and chagrined at the same time. I feel like I'm just starting to be able to get out of the mommy box a bit now, hoping to reinvent my style as time goes on, but in the early days, parenting is definitely not cool.

Clique. Clique. Clique.

Before I had children, my 9 year old nephew asked me for vans for Christmas. I emailed my brother and said, "My God he is asking me for a car!" So having kids doesn't necessarily make you a dweeb. Some of us were dweebs before we had kids.

Clique. Clique. Clique.

Kids belong at weddings only if the people getting married want them there. I got married a few weeks ago and did not have kids at the wedding, I'm still having people tell me how much fun our wedding was. If you need someone to get the wallflowers out why not just make cooler friends, not subject everyone to sticky, germy, slobbery kids.

Kids at weddings are a blast. They have the best time on the dance floor and energize the whole crowd. I even enjoy babies at weddings just as I don't mind them crying in the pews at church.

Mr. Wolcott has obviously never spoken with people like my husband. He loves being with his kids, and also enjoys all the sticky strolls etc...

I also don't think single people are "selfish". Some people are not meant to be parents and at least they are sensible enough to acknowledge that, unlike many parents who really ought to have opted out of the role.

I think it's fine when people choose not to have kids - and WONDERFUL if they are the type of people who love kids and want other people's children in their lives - the childless posters today have seemed to be of that sort, and I envy your friends and family! I think what is frustrating is those individuals who feel that not only are they free to choose not to have children, they also shouldn't have to be "burdened" by seeing, hearing, or dealing with other people's children, paying taxes for schools, etc. As someone else mentioned, this is a personality issue, but one that is more obvious in the childless. I disagree that America is too child-centric and have heard from friends and others who've traveled a lot that most countries are MORE family-centered than the U.S. I think it has come up in this blog before.

@TakomaMom

Child-centric and family-centric are not really the same thing. Other countries certainly place far more importance on the role of the family than the U.S. Not in all cases, but there is definately a stronger emphasis on family in certain foreign countries.

Even if it's not truly 100% focused on children, society is becoming increasingly soft due to people that cry "think of the children!" when they voice their concerns. They may be using children as a shield, or they may genuinely be thinking of children when they try and impose relentless broadcasting, content, and thought control in certain instances. And if you don't agree with that, then you hate babies and eat puppies.

Betty - I am right there with you on the 'cool' music. Some of my music isn't 100% kid friendly (Amy Ray and Kelly Buchanan get a little too fond of the 'F-bomb' once in a while) but Indigo Girls and Jill Sobule and Paul Simon and James Taylor are fun (and you should hear my 13 year old singing along with Bohemian Rhapsody and I Want To Break Free - priceless!). I've also started listening to some of hers - I never, EVER thought I'd be listening to the Black Eyed Peas on my iPod, but I'm starting to love a few songs.

As for the minivan - well, I came to the marriage with a Camry. My partner has a minivan. She will get a new one when we can afford to replace hers. I will get a new Camry when it's time to replace mine. I agree that the minivan is helpful when you're transporting a bunch of kids, or for long trips, but I love my little car (and yes, it's little compared to the house on wheels that my partner drives) and it will seat five, or three plus a carseat, and the trunk will accomodate two weeks worth of groceries and a 55 pound bag of dog food and a three ball bowling bag at the same time. So there. :-)

I'm not "bothered" byt paying taxes for schools--after all, the kids attending them may be my doctor one day.

And I'm not "bothered" when I see kids at the park, or the zoo.

I am "bothered" when I see kids at a nice, white table cloth restaurant, screaming for chicken fingers, or complaining of boredom at the theather.

I don't understand why a parent would bring a child (particularly a child who is not ready) to these places. The kid won't have fun. The parent won't have fun, because they'll be wrangling the kid. And the other patrons won't have fun because they'll be subject to the scene these families inevitable create.

Kids are great. That doesn't mean they belong everywhere.

The only thing I find annoying about the no kids at the wedding is if they pick and choose the kids, but you don't find this out until you get there. One of my cousins got married and she said no kids, when we got there, there were lots of kids. I think it causes hurt feelings becuase my sister was, like I thought it was no kids?

Scarry, it could be that some people just ignored the no kid rule and brought their kid anyway. People can be very rude about weddings. We had a few guests, who brought other people. Not a date or their child. Literally extra people. One couple brought their Aunt who was in town visiting. No it is one thing to call a head and ask but another to just show up. Also a bunch of people arrived unannounced to the rehersal dinner. We wanted just family and out of town guests and bridal party. But some people just starting showing up.

I had children at the wedding and was thrilled. I had 8 children in the actual wedding party. But I do think it is solely up to the bride and the groom to decide who they want in attendance. People tend to forget it is their day. Weddings have turned into this obnoxious obligation to everyone involved. My SIL choose not to have children in the wedding. She has two younger half siblings. Her father called up and demanded they be a part of the wedding party. Meanwhile he was not paying a dime for the wedding. I think that stinks. If the bride and groom want a totally adult wedding and they are paying for it, it is no one else's business.

Proud Papa,

You said, "He has very low self esteem, and believes that he'd be the worst role model and father in the history of the world. He doesn't feel like he has anything to offer a child, and fears that his offspring might turn out like himself- a first class jerk."

How do the qualities you described make him a first-class jerk? Having low self-esteem, feeling you're a potentially poor role model, fearing you don't have anything to offer -- aren't these characteristics indicative of possible mental or emotional problems (illnesses) or possibly a damaging childhood self-concept?

And isn't his disinclination to have children, in view of these aspect of his personality, a mature and well-reasoned decision?

How can you look at someone's emotional weaknesses and call him a jerk?

I pay no attention to Wolcott's comments. He's entitled to his opinion, I just ignore him. No daddy wars here.

Parenting is the MOST fulfilling thing in my life. No regrets at all.

Love my bees.

I've traveled the world, visited 40-some countries, eaten in some great restaurants, done lots of scubadiving, skiing, hiking, camping. I've had dozens of women, drank fine champagnes, seen Mount Everest. I've been to most of the world's great museums, been to many concerts, vacationed in beach houses and mountaintop cabins.

And the truth is, nothing compares with the joy I get from seeing my 6-year old son play tee-ball.

'And the family parking spots are suggestions, not law'

I would never, ever park in a handicapped space. But, I feel no obligation to avoid family parking spaces. These are a relatively new occurrence. When I was pregnant and had babies and toddlers, I parked wherever any other able-bodied driver would park. It's amazing how many women want special privileges along with their equality.

How about reserved parking for senior citizens? They do not all qualify for handicapped parking, but I would much rather they have preferred parking than pregnant women and mothers with children in tow.

"You totally need kids at weddings. It's the ten year olds who take pity on the wall flowers and get them out on the dance floor."

That depends on the kid. A polite ten year old is one kind of guest, an infant is another. My parents once made the mistake of bringing me to a wedding when I was an infant. I didn't dance with any wallflowers. I started screaming in the middle of the ceremony and my mom took me out of the room (and missed the rest of the ceremony) so that the bride and groom could hear each other's vows.

"Kids belong at weddings only if the people getting married want them there."

That applies for anyone, kid or adult.

"Child-centric and family-centric are not really the same thing. Other countries certainly place far more importance on the role of the family than the U.S."

True, there are many ways to be family-centric. The way some cultures have "honor killings" is very family-centric, but seems more patriarch-centric than child-centric.

parttimer, it was a long time ago, but thanks for saying that this time won't last forever. i'm in the thick of it (he's almost 6 months, and i've only left him with his dad twice (i'm exclusively breastfeeding so that's why)) and i love it, but it's also a bit of an identity crisis. and last night he woke up like five times. wtheck?
"suffering the joy" you are so right.

"I can't believe it. That just sounds--sacreligious. Tie on vans? What next?"

Vans have been around for a long time. I had some 25 years ago. Back then, they were all tie-ons.

'On Saturdays, my husband and I will read the paper at Starbucks and I love seeing the Dads giving Mom a break by hanging out with the kids.'

This struck me as being odd. I love seeing Dads hanging out with the kids, too, because the father/child relationship is something special, NOT because it gives the Mom a break. Another Mom-centric comment.

Ya know what's funny about all this parenting angst?

People used to just have kids. That's right, just have 'em. Not a big deal. Not a media event.

But now, with Baby Boomers' kids having kids, it's become an art, a science, a subject for study and debate.

Geez. Just have the kids, raise 'em, and be silent, already.

My wife and I have already had this conversation, as to what I would do in helping raising our (not so future, hopefully) offspring. Both my father and hers were the distant types that did little in raising us, letting our moms do it for the most part. Her father especially did little; at least mine had me working on the farm as soon as I was old enough to know the difference between weeds and vegetables.

I told her that whether we had a son or daughter, I'd teach them how to build a table and cook dinner (I do both), plant a garden and where to look for worms, how to bake cookies and the joys of playing in the mud.

I think that satisfied her.

My church has new and expectant mommy spots. I always viewed it as encouraging large families (we're Catholic) or just suggestions. I don't think they were required. I think it is viewed more like giving up your seat to an elderly person. I see signs on the Metro asking people to give up their seat for an elderly person. It is not mandatory just a suggestion. I give up my seat to people who I think needs it. Whether it is a pregnant lady, a mother in tow with child and needs some help, elderly, or just people who look like they are tired at the end of the day. Men often offer to give up their seats to a lady. I think it is just common courtesy.

"Men often offer to give up their seats to a lady"

Only if they're chauvinist pigs. A fair minded man would treat a lady as an equal and keep the seat for himself, instead of pretending she needed it more than him.

*ducks for cover*

" A fair minded man would treat a lady as an equal and keep the seat for himself, instead of pretending she needed it more than him."

I would make an exception to this for pregnant women; otherwise I agree I'm as capable of standing as anyone else.

"Men often offer to give up their seats to a lady"

Only if they're chauvinist pigs. A fair minded man would treat a lady as an equal and keep the seat for himself, instead of pretending she needed it more than him.

*ducks for cover*

Posted by: Five | September 28, 2006 12:21 PM
>>>

I often volunteer my seat to men or women who are much older than me, in a respect for elders type gesture.

What I do hate is when men OR women don't hold the door open for others! How rude to just let it slam in someone's face regardless of sex.

Yes people just used to have children, but now we have safe effective birth control so it is a choice.

I am not saying men should offer up their seat to a lady. I just said they often do that. I agree with Alex mom, I think it is rude to let the door slam on someone's face. Most of the time I see people holding the door. I also see men in my job wait till the women leaves the elevator. I guess it is one of those ladies first rules. It is the only place I have seen that done in a consistent manner. Even if the lady is towards the back of the elevator. They move out of the way, so she can actually exit first.

@NewName2

I'm just kidding around, a little humor with the whole "equals with perks" debate. I do the same thing and give my seat up if someone looks like they need it. In fact, most of the time I just stand and forget about taking a seat.

@alex.mom

Agreed, the door thing is bothersome. On a side note, ever witness women in line at a fast food restaurant waiting for a cashier, only to see some guy cut in front of her like she werent there? Not that it makes it right regardless of sex, but I see that happen to women on a more regular basis.

"Yes people just used to have children, but now we have safe effective birth control so it is a choice."

I think what brooks was saying was that parents never used to need parent-centric fashion guides, parent-centric hipness guides, "cool" looking diaper bags, etc. They just had kids and didn't care what other people thought of their mom-pants and dad-loafers. There's nothing wrong with keeping up appearances while parenting, but sometimes it gets taken just a bit too far (for example, can a dad *really* only maintain his coolness while carrying around a diaper bag if it looks like it was designed by the Marines?).

I want to thank Brian for acknowledging the difference between childfree people and uninvolved parents. You'd be surprised how many people *don't* acknowledge that difference.

"Yes people just used to have children, but now we have safe effective birth control so it is a choice."

You misunderstood my point, which was that, for people who want to have kids, just do it and don't make a huge deal of it. (For those who don't, yes, of course, use birth control!)

I don't think it is chauvinist to give up your seat for a woman on the metro. When I was not pregnant, I would decline, but boy riding all the way to shady grove from DC 7 months pregnant was tiring and if someone offered, I smiled and said thanks. I do it for pregnant women, small children, the elderly and the disabled.

Some people were just brought up to do those things, I don't find it offensive and newname I thought it was a rule to give up your seat for the disabled and elderly?

When you give up your seat to elderly, pregnant, or mom with small kids out of courtesy, they are right in front of you. You don't stand because one might happen to come along.

Disabled people need preferred parking - the others don't need it, but it is a courtesy. I have only seen signs for expectant and new mothers - not the elderly. Expectant and new mothers without disabilities are perfectly capable of walking from any spot, so I will not pass by one of those empty spaces on the chance that someone pregnant or with small children will come along.

Why can't you just walk from a spot farther out like everyone else?

Wasn't there a huge discussion recently on this blog that "ladies" was inappropriate, offensive, and came from a class system?

Wolcott makes me sad because he doesn't get it. Doing all of the stuff he describes in the clip that Brian provided is the secondary parenting stuff. By my husband's reckoning, the joys of fatherhood are more along the lines of: holding your newborn(s) for the first time, watching your son ride his new bike for the first time, hearing your daughter say "Daddy" as her first word, etc. I didn't read the whole article, but he seems to take more interest in the social affectations of the modern dad than actual fathering.

I actually would also rather see preferred spaces for the elderly - I have no problem getting in and out of the store with a child (well, sometimes I do, but it's not a matter of distance). Though the only places I've seen those spots are at Babies R' Us, where they're clearly pandering to their primary audience. But I may just not be paying attention.

And I totally agree on the door thing. I hate that. And I don't think it's chauvinist or offensive for a man to offer a seat to a lady, I just don't think it's important either, unless she's obviously preggers.

Re: family parking spots. I love them and use them. I like that they're closer because I don't have to haul my "germy, sticky, slobbery" offspring farther across dangerous parking spots.

Why is it so hard to be nice to people who could use a little extra help, regardless of why?!

Because I feel entitled to close parking as much as anyone else :). I am a middle-aged woman and really don't see that younger women need close parking more than I do. And when the pregnant woman or mom with child spaces are full, I do park farther, just like everyone else.

What if a male professional athlete was out with his infant child? She he be allowed to park in the space reserved for moms with small children? Why not?

I'm not trying to cause a problem here. Just saying how I feel. You do what you want and I'll do what I want.

"She he be" - this should be - 'Should he be" - hit submit before preview.

We've seen that women can and do tear each other to shreds trying to justify their own stay-at-home or go-to-work choices.

But I would hope that men would have better things to do than get caught up in such pointless nonsense.

Daddy wars indeed - pfah. The very idea smacks of a manufactured controversy.

(And what does any of this have to do with balance, anyway?)

Not *mom* spots, *family* spots. And yes, a professional male athlete with an infant counts as a family.

I didn't know we couldn't use the term lady. I will use women from now on. I think there are reserved seats for the disabled or elderly. But the signs I saw were up above asking people in general to give up their other seats. There are all kinds of signs above that ask people to do things on the metro. Things that should be quite obvious. Like please do not crowd around the doors. Please offer your seat to an elderly person etc... They sound like requests not orders. Just out of curiosity "me", have you ever been pregnant? Because a pregnant women in her last trimester could use a seat or a closer parking space. I don't see why it is so offensive to let them park closer. Like I said even in the church or Babies R Us or wherever those new mommy spots are, I think they are suggestions. The non mommy's do not get ticketed for parking in those spots. I think that is the same with the metro seats. You are not ticketed for sitting in the first row if your not elderly or disabled. People can sit there. They do all the time. It is just suggested to give those seats up if someone should get on who is elderly or disabled. BTW, not all elderly people qualify by law to get a handicapped sticker. You still have to show you are some how disabled in order to qualify. And those stickers need to be renewed every few years in certain states.

Grocery stores also have "pregnant women" parking spots. I never park there because I like to walk but it is kind of strange. A parking spot for the elderly would make more sense.

I rode the Metro during my pregnancies and was offered a seat about three times and I was on the Metro the morning of the day my first child was born. Some people just ignore the elderly and hugely pregnant on the Metro. However, I was perfectly fine standing there. Some people are not raised to be courteous.

Five, I didn't see the holding doors thing (or the elevator) until I moved to Arkansas - in Florida, it was everyone for themself. Also, the cutting in line thing was really bad in Florida - and, unfortunately, it was too often men in blue collar jobs (either uniform shirts or in obviously distressed 'work clothes') that did it. Maybe those simple manners things just aren't taught in school anymore (I know they weren't when I was in school) and if you don't get them at home, you don't get them until you've got to in business. Ugh.

OK niner. The spots at the grocery store where I shop actually say Moms - not family.

"OK niner. The spots at the grocery store where I shop actually say Moms - not family."

Then they should be changed to "family." :) Gotta go--work beckons.

And ditto on the Metro experience of being really pregnant while riding. While pregnant myself, I gave up a seat one day to a more pregnant passenger. Every one else was just oblivious to her. I think that's the mindset of riding Metro in the morning--everyone just zones out. Think of how quiet it is, even as everyone is packed in.

Brooks - That 10am comment was definitely not me, 'the usual' Proud Papa. So I won't speak for that author or his/her feelings...

'When I was pregnant and had babies and toddlers, I parked wherever any other able-bodied driver would park.'

Yes, I have been pregnant which I already stated. I was pregnant twice.

I do believe in courtesy, and I am courteous in general, but I will not bypass one of the family spaces because I don't believe that they should be reserved. I have offered assistance directly to pregnant women and those with small kids, but as far as the parking - no. My doctor alway