Way to go for knowing what you want and for expressing it in a way that isn't immediately offensive or which mocks the choices of others (unlike Liz and some other posters yesterday). I do have children, but I've always felt like people who don't want to should be left alone. There is a secret part of me that will always wonder what my life would have been like without children, just as there's a part of me that wonders what my life would be like if I just stayed single. Jamie, stick to your message and don't let the badgering drag you down. . .

I think Emily Yoffe at Slate has the best response to those who are childless by choice:

http://www.slate.com/id/2143659/fr/rss/

I support your right not to have children. Not everyone wants a child. As someone who had a child later in life, there is a tremendous pressure placed on women to have children. I always disliked the assumptions that one who decides to not have children is too selfish. Contrary to many posters here, I think childless people can have just as fulfiling a life as those who have children.

Emily Yoffe? Obviously, it worked for her. To then assume it's a happy ending for everyone is condescending!

I often wonder what effect our childhood has on our own desire to have a family. I was never the nurturing type. At one point, I didn't even want to be married. Now, I'm married with one child and am hopeful that we will have many more children. What changed? It was a slow progression. My parents are divorced. Marriage didn't seem like a good idea to me initially. Kids represented changed and in my shattered world, change only meant more hurt. In my college years, I was fortunate to be exposed to friends who came from large, loving families. My eyes began to open. Marriage and kids didn't necessarily mean unhappiness. I met my husband several years later. He came from loving intact home and was hopeful about marriage and about kids. It made me hopeful too. Our first child was a leap of faith for me, but it the best leap I've ever taken. I don't really think it is a leap of faith any longer. I think kids are inherently good for you. I was reminded of this watching "Tsotsi" this weekend with my husband.

"Obviously, the topic should be something related to balancing your life." Subtext: or, if it has nothing to do with balancing your life, should be designed to stoke passionate yet useless dialogue about the validity of choice filtered through self-serving bias interspersed with pleas for togetherness, temporarily sidelined by fanatics, and finally brought to a thoughtful, rational conclusion by a dad.

My husband and I are proudly childfree. It is still amazing to me how others question our choices, when it's a deeply personal choice of whether or not to become a parent.

And it's not like I just decided this on a whim. This is after several years of mulling it over, the pros and the cons of each lifestyle.

In the end, I know that I would not make a good parent. My husband has said this too. So then why do it? Because everyone else does? Isn't that one of the very lessons parents teach their kids: "Don't jump off a bridge because your friends are doing it." I was told that all the time as a child. The same rule applies here.

I find it so interesting and perplexing when some people get so defensive and worked up over other people's decision to not have kids. I don't understand it. Is it because they feel threatened that someone making a different decision than them?

When people say "You'll regret it." Maybe, maybe not. Who knows? But if I ever did, I'd much rather live with the regret of not having children, than regretting I did, and having that resentment fester between me and my child. How horrible is that?

I am child-free and at this point, plan to remain so. There are times that I think that I might want to have kids, but then I always wonder, do I actually want them or do I simply want them because I am *supposed* to - I think that's the biggest issue I have - trying to figure out my own feelings versus those that I am supposed to have - we are taught that we are supposed to fall in love, get married, have children and grow old. Going against the grain can be difficult, especially when you are told, as I am, that I would be a great Mom - no, I'm a great aunt, to children that are not my own! :)

THANK YOU JAMIE! You said it all, I've heard all these same things since I starting saying at 15 that I never wanted to have kids. I'm not what you might call the mothering type, I don't have the patience for the lifestyle of today's parenting. I have ZERO maternal instinct, know nothing about infants and couldn't change a diaper if my life depended on it. I'm so confident in my decision to not have children that I've had my tubes permanently clipped. Like most of society, I've found that most OB/GYNs look down on this decision and it's hard to find one that will do it. I was finally able to have the proceedure completed at the age of 32, but would have been perfectly happy at the legal age of 18. Now when the subject comes up, I simple tell people I can't have them. Saves me a lot of hassle and annoyance. People make decisions about their lives, what they want or need out of life. Having kids does not complete some cycle of womenhood in the great scheme of life. Let me use a popular phrase intended for a different purpose, but greatly appropriate; "No means no".

Why is a "response" to those who decide to remain childless even necessary? That's the point the writer is making. (And, btw, I am pregnant with my first and so am not tainted as a "childless" person.) Different stroks, you know?

I often find that people who are parents view those who decide to remain childless as a symbolic slap in the face. That Emily Yoffe article reeks of that attitude. (Yes, some childless folks come off as smug about their decision, but plenty of parents are just as smug about their providing the next generation.)

For the life of me, I cannot figure out why anyone cares whether someone else decides to have a child or not.

to Welcome to the guest blog - well said!

to Jamie - why do relatives think they can give unsolicited advice? it gets worse when children are involved. Good for you, live your life the way you want to, and ignore the naysayers.

As someone who will have kids, I still find very few statements more patronizing than the "you'll find out when you're a parent," "you'll change your mind," "you'll regret it," lines. If you find yourself in a situation where you can say one of those awfully condescending things, try to substitute it with, "I thought that too, but my kids just don't work that way" or "I'm glad I changed my mind," or "I would have regretted not having kids." Remember not everyone is like you, so try not to place your feelings on them.

I received the same comments - "you will make a great mother, you will regret it", etc etc. I also had someone tell me - "it's people like you who should be having kids". Not sure what she meant by that, and I probably don't want to know.
I do love kids and I am a terrific aunt. I am amazed how people can juggle careers and parenthood, but also know it is something I cannot do. Fortunately as I have gotten older, the comments come less frequently.

Several of my friends are childfree as well, and I applaud your well-thought-out, well-written summary of your choices (and a choice is precisely what expanding your family beyond yourself and your partner are).

I myself am a fence-sitter. I honestly don't know if I want children or not yet, but I am strongly leaning towards not, as is my personal right and yours. Congratulations on making your decision and sticking to your guns. :)

I am a single woman. i just turned 30. I want to have kids someday but i want to be married first so, if i don't get married then i won't have kids. i just don't want to be a single mom. so it is something i want but i know might not happen for me. this statement is so hard for people to understand. i'd rather be alone than just get married to the "almost" right guy so i can have kids. And i know that it just may not happen for me.

The assumption that young women must procreate is wrong. some don't want to. some don't get the opportunity. some can't because of biology. It's just not meant for everyone, for various reasons.

"it's people like you who should be having kids"

I think that was meant as a compliment, because unfortunately there are neglectful and abusive parents.

I'm childless and plan to stay that way. However, I've given this a lot of thought and have decided that if I ever change my mind....there are other options.

Foster parenting and/or adoption is always and option. I believe that you don't need to have an infant to discover your m/paternal abilities. Children of circumstance, regardless of age, need love and nuturing as much as anyone's own children. There has been a shortage of foster families in the US for many years. Those who might change their minds can open their minds and hearts.

Everyone must chose for themselves.

The following post is rated for:
[X] Buffoonery
If foolishness is not your cup of tea, please skip this post. You've been warned!

The Tongue Test

I've noticed that there is an increasing presence of childless posters reading this blog. Some have come to know it as the funniest blog on the web, others seem to want to take a candid peek into what today's Mommies and Daddies are doing so they can better prepare themselves to bring another life into this world.

So, if you want to know how you will best fit in as a parent, and you are struggling with your decision on how to balance it all out, you clicked the right button. I've devised an online test that anyone can take that will show you where you are most comfortable in your childraising role: Stay at Home, Fulltime work, a little of each, or absolutely none at all.

Background
Did you ever hear that rumor that if you kept your eyes open while you sneezed, your eyes would pop out? Well, I tried it, and its true! really! Trust me on this one and don't try it it at home.

Here is another one, emotional rather than physical. You can't stick your tongue out without experienceing a feeling of silliness. The reason this is true is not quite known to psychologist, but the profession generally acknowledges intensional "tongue exposure" as a simple human act that emotes both humility and a small sense of eurphoria.

So herein lies the test. I call it the tongue test. Prepare yourself! Ready?

Now stick out your tongue.
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Hold it there!
1
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2
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3
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Now do the rassberry. Don't woory about getting the monitor a little wet, besides, you're looking at the words of Father of 4, and he, well I, am quite used to saliva...

PBTHPbThPbhTphbtTbhthPpbPhtbPtbHpbhpbbht.....

Very Good! Now for the scoring.

If you stuck your tongue out for the full 3 seconds and did the rassberry, great! You are the stay-at-home type and will absolutely love spending the majority of your time with children. The kids will love being with you because of your own self-acceptence and willingness to be silly just for the fun of it. so, go ahead, make a baby, make several babies, the serenity you will get out of breast feeding, piggy counting and booboo kissing will far surpass the satisfaction you will get from seeing a column of numbers all lined up in a row.

If you are like most people, you probably stuck your tongue out for a second, pulled it bak in, thought to yourself "Boy, that was stupid", and cracked a small smile of embarrasement even though nobody saw you do it. You are the type of person that will enjoy being with kids, but full-time will be exhausting and unfulfilling. So those of you who fall in this category, either find a partner that is willing to share the homeward responsibilities, or be willing to work at least part-time and hire a few helping hands to fill in the gaps. Family time with the ability to recharge will be critical for you to achieve maximum happiness. Oh, and keep coming back to this blog and post your stories on life-balance issues. If you stay and post long enough, people will come to know and respect you.

If you never got your tongue beyond your lips, try again. If you still can't do it, that's OK too. You can accept your role as the office puppy, wear the short corporate leash, and outsource your parenting responsibilities as much as possible. That doesn't mean you will make a bad parent, it just means that you should be willing to spend the time to provide a solid financial foundation. Your contrabution will be appreciated as long as you show up for a few photo opts and family gatherings. Expensive, trendy Christmas and birthday gifts are nice too. Your kids will love you for that alone.

Lastly, if you just spit without sticking your tongue out and gave a big "PHOOEY" and thought "Another load of BS from fo4", well, umm, lets just say you've probably made the right choice not to have any kids. There's nothing wrong with that. It takes all kinds to make the world go round.

Jamie, if you read this post, won't you be so kind to tell us how you scored ont the tongue test. I think a lot of us would like to know.

Hope this helps.

I just love that anytime someone posts their own opinion on this blog, that there are lots of people who feel the need to write in and say "don't apply your opinions to me...blah blah blah".

It's called an opinion people, we all have one. They are ours! Not yours!

That being said - while I have 2 kids, and love them, I can certainly see why people would choose not to have them. I think if we were more accepting of this decision to not have kids, and if people didn't think that everyone should have them, we'd have alot less unwanted pregnancies and abused children. Face it - not everyone is cut out to be a parent. It is really hard! I see these people at the playground and the grocery store everyday - yelling at their kids, belittling them, etc.

My husband and I decided that the two we have is just right for us. But his mom is constantly asking me if I'm pregnant again. I've already told her the factory is closed! (Got the 5-year IUD last year). Not ready to permanently say I'm having no more children, but this is the first step to it. Assuming I leave it in the full five years, I'll be 39 when it comes out and my youngest will be 6.

Of course people could hypothetically change their minds, but there is no need to point that out to them, or to try to convince them to do so. Unless you are willing to take the baby off their hands when they decide their original decision was correct, than just butt out!

As someone who has decided (along with my fiance) to remain childless - and adopt greyhounds instead - I found this blog refreshing. Nothing irritates me more than people telling me what I AM going to do with my life - "you'll change your mind", etc. I have not wanted children for as long as I can remember (third grade to be exact). And it has nothing to do with my upbringing or dislike of children. My parents were wonderful. And I'm fine with kids - I love coaching youth swimming (I've been doing so since I was 15) and my baby-sitting charges love me. Children are fine as long as they go home with their parents at the end of the day. I'd much rather be the person who can share my passions with many children and 'spell' the parents for a bit...

I don't think there's anything wrong with not wanting children - I know a lot of people who are childless by choice and it works for them. I don't expect everyone to be married, or to have children, and I think it's great that people can choose a lifestyle that makes them happy.

I, however, see a different interpretation of the remark "You'd be such a good mom" - I think it is intended to be a compliment, that someone who says it believes that you have the right qualities and makeup to be a loving, nurturing, interesting parent.

On the flip side, I think we have all known people that we didn't quite "see" as a parent. Of course many of them do a great job and in retrospect we feel silly wondering how they would tackle parenthood.

"It takes all kinds to make the world go round."

And it takes all kinds to parent-- if you don't stick your tongue out and act silly all the time, maybe the other stay at home parents will appreciate it. Being a stay at home parnet can be a wonderful experience and it is not necessary to give up your maturity or diginity to do it!

I remember when someone asked feminist icon Gloria Steinhem why she did not want children, how a woman of her intelligence, talent, et al, was remiss in not reproducing. She responded that all her maternal instincts had been fulfilled by the very long caregiving necessitared by her mother's illness. Sometimes there are other reasons to remain 'childfree' and they may simply have to do with resources--financial and practical ones--- and physical and emotional exhaustion.

"It takes all kinds to make the world go round."

And it takes all kinds to parent-- if you DON'T stick your tongue out and act silly all the time, maybe the other stay at home parents will appreciate it. Being a stay at home parnet can be a wonderful experience and it is not necessary to give up your maturity or dignity to do it!

We came to the child-free decision the roundabout and hard way, through infertility treatment and unsuccessfully trying to adopt. When we realised we were happy as we were (and I was getting pretty close to my deadline - didn't want to be 50 with a child in kindergarten) we said ok, that's it, we'll be happily child-free, and we are. Looking back on it, I don't think I would have done it any differently, since we really did want children at the time we were trying to be parents, but I think someone was giving us the big hint that we just weren't meant to be. We are the cool, fun aunt and uncle, and that's just fine by us!

I was once absolutely sure I didn't want to get married, and my mom used to drive me insane with her hints and "you'll change your mind" stuff. I felt her attitude was disrespectful of my decisions as an adult. Then again, I actually did change my mind eventually, and I'm glad I stayed flexible. "Never say never," as the saying goes.

I'm not saying Jamie will change her mind about kids, or that she "should" want them. But I think that a lot of people have experienced that "I never thought I would do X, but here I am doing it and I love it" scenario in the course of their lives, so that's probably what they're thinking in regard to Jamie's choices. It's annoying, but I don't think they mean to be condescending or hurtful either.

Thank you Jamie for bringing up this topic. The one thing that I keep hearing from childfree people is that they just are not interested in raising children. They don't feel emotionally drawn to raising children. I wonder how many people choose to abstain from raising children because of balance. They have jobs that require too much time or not enough me or couple time. Or is it simply they are not interested regardless of their work/life balance situation. And people who want kids figure a way to balance it all. I respect people's decision to be childfree. I have a child and she is the best thing that happened to me. But I fully appreciate others choosing not to do it. It is a labor of love and if your not interested it is probably just the labor part.

Yes, my shameless begging on the achenblog worked. Father of 4 is back.

I have childless friends and have never once thought about why they don't want kids. It's their choice not mine. However, once when I was pregnant another girl my age at work looked at a childless colleague and ask her if she wanted kids. The women was polite and said that she was happy with her husband and her cat.

It's just best not to ask people if they want kids, why they don't have them, etc. You never know if someone lost a child, can't have them or simply doesn't want them. It's really none of your business.

Although the best response to why someone doesn't have kids came from one of my friends, which is: "we'd like to have kids, but we just don't know how to go about doing that, can you explain to me how you make children."

I always thought it was funny.

Had a cousin and her husband who loved to lecture at family gatherings how they never wanted to have children [many of the same statements I've seen here]. Many of the relatives gave the same 'You'll change your mind' comments.

My grandmother, however, had the best response -- she told them to stand their ground and that "The world is a better place because of your decision not to procreate."

My cousin always thought it was a compliment :-)

I agree with hounds not kids. I like kids, I have loads of patience, and I have worked with kids with different levels of ability for several years.

But I don't want my own. I think that I would be a much more fulfilled person being able to take care of other people's kids and donating my time and money to help people and animals of all ages than if I devoted all my time to my one kid.

And my family is wonderful and loving. My husband's is too. I can't think of a "reason" for why we don't want kids. Maybe I was dropped on my head or something, or maybe my husband ate paint chips.

I have heard all of those remarks ("you'll change your mind" being my favorite). I have now started telling people that I am not able to have kids. It really had gotten to the point that I didn't feel like defending myself anymore.

Scarry, I love that answer! I have to use it next time the in-laws ask when we're going to have "the next little [hislastname]"!!

Adults make choices. Busy bodies make noise.

Having just submitted my bio for my 40th High School reunion this topic is fresh on my mind. If I may quote myself concerning my wife's and my position:

"We never wanted kids of our own and are in awe of all of you that have successful handled the trials and tribulations (and expense!) of parenthood. We don't doubt for a second that the joys are innumerable but I am often reminded of the New Yorker cartoon which pictures a man and woman walking down a city sidewalk with the caption, "Of course I want children, Claire, just not all the time.""

Interesting question, foamgnome. I don't have any children and probably won't ever have any. In my case, it's partly because hubby and I lead lives that feel quite busy and full and can't really imagine how children would fit in. I also have a medical condition that can be exacerbated by stress, so I don't think I'm cut out for the harried life of a working mother. On the other hand, I can't imagine myself as a SAHM either, as I'd go bonkers from the lack of intellectual stimulation. (I've been a very curious bookworm type since my own childhood.)

I spent many years thinking I'd never have kids. I had a good amount of childhood low-grade-trauma to get over.

When we were childless by choice, all the comments from friends, family, and yes, total strangers just rolled off my back. I had no problem making a joke of it, and most importantly, no problem defending my own views.

Well, 30 rolled around, and our 10-year-anniversary, and I became more secure and more flexible. Plus, we thought that while the last ten had been fun, but we didn't need to do bars and extreme vacations anymore. We thought kids would be a great way to transition to a new part of life.

Lo and behold, all the money we spent on birth control over the years was a total waste. It didn't happen for us. It's ok, we're still great together, with a wonderful life. However, those well-meaning souls who still say what wonderful parents we'd be, and ask us about our plans for "a family"-- (as if the two of us weren't family enough)-- well, it's getting a lot harder to take. I fear one day I'm just going to snap at some simpering in-law. How embarrassed will she be when she hears that we're not just procrastinating, that we're not just one good argument away from tossing the pills? I hope I'm never so unkind as to put someone in that position...

In short, anyone tempted to bring up the very personal matter of reproduction should remember, you're not the first person to say it, and eventually, whatever our reasons may be, we all get tired of hearing it.

I'm always pleased when folks can admit that they'd make crappy parents and they spare potential children from suffering. People who say they don't want kids are about as self-centered as it gets. Can't afford to give up that Sunday morning lounging in Starbucks pouring over the newspaper? Get a REAL life and get over yourself.

" I can't imagine myself as a SAHM either, as I'd go bonkers from the lack of intellectual stimulation."

Intellectual stimulation need not stop at the threshold of your home. You can be curious and intellectual AND not get paid for it.

I was pleased to see an article like this in a major newpaper. Most of time, views like this are pushed to the fringes by our society. My wife and I are in our early to mid 30's and are childfree.

We have very full lives. We can't possibly see how children would make our lives better. We don't hate children. My wife is actually a 4th grade teacher. We just don't want to have any of our own.

We also respect the rights of others to make their own decision on this issue, which is something that I really can not say about our friends and family with kids. They seem to make it their goal in life to convert others to the cult of babyhood.

I'd go bonkers from the lack of intellectual stimulation. (I've been a very curious bookworm type since my own childhood.)
***************
Kids are actually quite intellectually stimulating. As a philosophy major, it has been fascinating watching my child become a sentient being. As he grows older, I know he'll have queries about all of the "big" questions-What is our purpose? Is there a God? What does it mean to be human? I also look forward to sharing my own love of books with my children. Your passions don't have to go by the wayside when you have kids. They are part of who you are and a gift that you share with your family.

I don't really see it as the cult of babyhood. I believe parents have honestly experienced a transformation, a complete overhauling of their lives, for the positive.

Haven't you ever tried to set up a friend on a date, just because being in love is so great? I sure have.

That said, I'm with you. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Our marriage, our life is frankly perfect. Kids would upset the balance we've worked to achieve.

Comments like Anon's are exactly why this blog is 90% useless. Is there something inherent in us as people that makes us judge other people so harshly, just because they made a decision that is different from our own? Childfree people are not hurting anyone or themselves. They've made a choice that works for them, mind your own business.

There is nothing more selfish in this world than not raising children. It's not a personal choice, it's a societal choice. Before I had kids I volunteered, teaching computers, I wrote articles for kids, I ran my office's Toys for Tots drive. We were all children once and we leeched off of adults, many of whom were both not our parents and who helped us out of the niceness of their own heart. I am tired of people thumbing their nose at all that help and support they got, refusing to pay back any of it, and claiming they have some moral upper-hand by not wanting kids. Go ahead, don't have your own kids, but you either make darn sure that you help some teenager get into medical school or forfeit your privilege of seeing any doctors in your retirement. Because if you want a doctor when you're 80, that doctor has to be educated today. I'd just as soon raise my own kids than feel that crushing guilt of taking and never giving.

I am 50. My husband and I have two sons, 21 and 15. We love them dearly and wouldn't trade them for the world. They have brought us great joy. That said, parenthood isn't for everyone and a childless person's (or couple's) life can be just as rewarding as ours. I know two couples well who are my age, childless by choice, and very happy, interesting people. As with everything in life, there are tradeoffs. It's a matter of finding the right balance for you, which is a very individual thing, not "one size fits all." Jamie and her husband seem to have made the right choice for them, which is all any of us (regardless of which "option" we choose) can hope for.

Finally a blog that makes sense. To all you Mommies Dearest out there, childless people can, and do, take part in this blog. I grew up with an abusive mother and I could never, for the life of me, figure out why anybody could possibly want a kid, or 2 or 3.

To the monitor of this blog: I wish you would delete the unsigned and anonymous posters, as set out in your 'Post a Comment' section. I think they are all the same person making snarky cracks about other peoples' lifestyle choices. You live your life and I'll live mine.

HA-HA! I knew it was Father of 4 after the first paragraph or two of that entry!
So does that mean I've been spending too much time on this blog? Glad you're back.
And by the way, what happened to Lieu?

On topic: I have had aunts who never had any kids of their own. One had raised a couple of nieces. Another seems content to enjoy the temporary company of grandnieces and grandnephews. Another gave me a sourball when I was a baby, and I choked, and a cop had to reach in and pull it out to save me. On the other hand, I work in the child abuse/neglect arena, where parents do a lot worse.

Given what I have seen, not nearly enough people make the decision to not have kids.

To the guest blogger, I'm just curious: what if one of the comments you received from friends and family was a simple, non-snarky, "Good for you" or "Good choice"? How would you feel?

And "welcome to the guest blog," that description was funny.

Bethesdan - wow, that's a sweeping judgment! Where has anyone written today that not having kids is "morally superior". Most people seem to agree that one size does not fit all, and we are free to make our choices. And how do you know we are not contributing in our way?
Also, how many teenagers are there in medical school?

Well-said, Anon!

For me, parenthood was the best thing that ever happened to my self-centered, "lifestyle"-valuing, "my choices", "what-I-like" "what-I-need" self. It was only when I learned how to really give and forget about my "self" that my life became truly meaningful.

So many of the postings on this blog take the utilitarian approach to family and children -- what about the spiritual approach?

Why is it that no one ever brings up all of the BAD things that happen to some parents? It doesn't take much to get a little kid to say "I love you" or all of the other earth shattering stuff parents just have to tell you.

I don't get why people second-guess other people who don't want kids. Just like I don't get people who would walk up to a pregnant woman and put their hands on her stomach without her permission (or indeed knowing her).

I want kids so badly that holding someone else's baby is like a physical ache. But that doesn't mean that YOU should want them.

I think it's your right to not have children. No problems with that.

I would ask that you figure out what your role re: family and friends with children will be.

Will you be the doting Aunt type? Someone who doesn't have children, but makes it a point to make a difference in the lives of children and young adults?

Perhaps you will be a careerist, striving hard to make a difference in the external world.

Or someone who pursues interests that would not support a family be they monetary or time?

When my sister, who is unmarried and childless, comes there is always subtle criticism of my children. I bought back-to-college clothes this fall, and she remarks that aren't they old enough to buy their own clothes. Well, I remember her getting an entirely new wardrobe when she went through Rush Week in college. If my kids need new duds from American Eagle then I don't think that's out of line. But her memory seems so short.

Unless you want to cut yourself off from anybody who has children, I think you've got to figure out how you want to fit in, and then maybe work on that some.

Please read the article and comments from the people who decided not to have kids, their stories are consistently how fulfilling THEIR lives are, how they can do all the things THEY want to do, and THEY don't have to give anything up.

Sure... nothing selfish about total devotion to oneself, right?

Lieu is here but under a different name. See if you can indentify Lieu.

Father of 4

"Another load of BS from fo4"

NO, it's another BIG load of of BS from fo4!

What a crashing bore!

So, you have to have children to not be selfish? I am sure Mother Theresa would have been thrilled to hear that...
Fortunately, I love "fitting in" as a doting aunt, but I would never tell anyone what they "have" to do with their lives. What chutzpah...

What a nice guest blog; thank you.

I'm not sure why the pressure to reproduce persists in our society but I can tell you it doesn't go away until you have several kids - we have a toddler and people are starting to ask when we'll be having the next. (I'm 35 and have been married 12 years so spent about 10 years getting the baby gears. :))

I think what I find odd about it a little bit though - on both sides! - is why it becomes such a thing. For years I didn't own a car and I was a vegetarian, and people took these two facts to mean that I was passing judgment on their environmental habits and I often found myself listening to them, confused about why they were either justifying their car/meat, or why they were trying to convince me to say that I would own a car someday or start eating meat.

I knew that some vegetarians and (I guess) pedestrians can be really aggressive about their choices and so I figured some of it came from that (and I find that in the childfree movement too; I totally agree with the right to enjoy a childfree life, but I hate terms like "crotch droppings" etc.) I also think with food, it was that I was rejecting a lot of food rituals - the Thanksgiving turkey, the trip to the farm to get fresh sausage.

I found over time that if I just ignored the comments, they disappeared for the most part. I didn't consider it my 'right' not to have a meat eater go on about steak as long as they were't being an ass about it. I think the childfree stuff is - well, it's deeper in terms of identity and things, but it's a bit equivalent.

I am not sure (not knowing your family) how it is, but I don't see why you would have to be combatitive. You're not having a kid. They can't make you. Throw a shoe shower for yourself instead a la Sex and the City, and enjoy the weekends. :-)

One aspect in the decision to have kids I haven't seen mentioned is the huge responsibility involved in bringing a life into this world. What if your family falls on hard times, you and your spouse both die young, or your child is born with a disability that they will have to live with long after you are gone? Your children may or may not have the ability to thrive after you are no longer able to look after and protect them. That is a thought that always sticks with me, though I still plan to have children with my husband. It is just such an awesome responsibility that I'm always surprised by how easy the decision is for so many people to have kids, and totally respect/wouldn't question anyone who decided against having kids.

Most of all of you childless posters today seem very friendly towards parents and children.

Have any of you had friendships suffer greatly because of the choice to have kids?

A few weeks after the birth of my first child, I had a childless-by-choice friend invite herself to my house for "a vacation." She promised that she wanted to visit friends in the area and would be out of the house much of the time. Instead, she hung out entirely at our house and complained at how fussy and colicky our baby was (which was hell for me already as a new mom), and told me in great detail the incontinence and other complications I was likely to suffer because of having given birth.

Our friendship has never really recovered from this.

To Anon2

It's an interesting point you raise RE: the spiritual approach to family and children.

My husband and I weigh several factors in our decision to have children. Both of us were raised in poor households so we spent a lot of time discussing what type of life we wanted for ourselves and any future children. We and our extended family live in a very high cost area. Financial concerns weigh very heavily in our conversations about the number of children, living space, etc.
For us, the utilitarian approach addresses very personal concerns we have about not replicating the stress and deprivation of our childhoods.

Just one person's perspective.

I could have written this post when I was 28 or even 32... Then my friends started having kids and though they all loooked permanently tired and frazzled they talked about children as "being in love again pemanently". We started to see less and less of them and felt very lonely as a couple. So, many years later, I am so glad that I changed my mind. It's not a judgement on childless couples its just how I feel.

I have to agree with a poster above that relatives and friends will give unsolicited advice no matter what the situation. I got it about when I would get married, about when I would have children, and now that I have a baby, when will I have the next one. When I tell them that I'm only having this one, I get clucks and head shaking... such a horrible thing to do to a child!

After a while, you just have to smile and walk away. It is a good example of what not to do to other people!

So, if I understand, you're relating a story about an obnoxious grandmother who belittles her relatives and a cousin who is too stupid to figure it out? Is she stupid because she's not having kids, or is that a coincidence?

What was the point of that post?

Meesh, my friend who told me that question is very talented. I would have never thought that question up, but if I didn't want kids I would use it.

I find it so interesting and perplexing when some people get so defensive and worked up over other people's decision to not have kids. I don't understand it. Is it because they feel threatened that someone making a different decision than them?
---------

Maybe I want to have more educated doctors when I'm 80 and your decision just robbed my future of one more scientist, doctor, author, actor or volunteer?

Maybe I'm tired of hearing coworkers tell me they're using fewer natural resources by not raising a scientist who might solve our energy woes in 2050. Maybe I'm tired of people acting like it's wise they didn't raise the next Martin Luther King. Maybe I'm tired of coworkers who drive SUVs just for antiquing tell me their taxes pay for my kid's school when he's still in private daycare. Just maybe we're under attack from a small minority of every adult group we belong to who bizarrely wishes we didn't have kids.

While I do believe that some people genuinely do not want children, I'm very curious to know how old the guest blogger is.

Noname today - it's great that things worked out for you and that you are happy. I just wish folks would give me the same credit of knowing what I wanted...
Bethesdan - YOU accuse people of having a morally superior attitude? Pot, meet kettle...

I've known since age 15 that I don't want kids. I do like kids- other people's kids. No use forcing it. I'll marry a good man who understands this too. If I get the baby pang at 45 or later, I'll adopt. I think I'd rather do that than subject my body to fertility treatments for the sake of having one. (Different issue altogether).

Thanks for sticking up for those women who just don't need to give birth to feel complete or something. I'm happy being child free.

'So, if I understand, you're relating a story about an obnoxious grandmother who belittles her relatives and a cousin who is too stupid to figure it out? Is she stupid because she's not having kids, or is that a coincidence?'

I thought the above referenced tale was very funny!

Bethesdan - so basically people are supposed to have kids for YOUR benefit? What if someone had the next Hitler?
You think you are under attack? Sorry, you sound a bit paranoid...feel sorry for your kids.

So, you have to have children to not be selfish?
----

yawn. I said "raising" not having, not everyone can physically have kids. Feel proud about that straw man? Chutzpah indeed.

There are 300 million people in this country, I have a feeling that you'll have a doctor when you are 80 - no need to worry - and by people NOT having children, there will be more natural resources, trees, spaces to live, etc.

Not to be rude, but I find your comments very odd and bizarre.

"Maybe I want to have more educated doctors when I'm 80 and your decision just robbed my future of one more scientist, doctor, author, actor or volunteer?"

I could just as easily end up giving birth to a future serial killer. Your point?

"Maybe I'm tired of hearing coworkers tell me they're using fewer natural resources by not raising a scientist who might solve our energy woes in 2050."

Actually, by some people choosing not to have children, it adds some BALANCE to the picture, so our world isn't as inundated with people contributing to the depletion of our natural resources.

It's a given that family and friends will always give you their opinion whether you want it or not. Be it getting married, having a child, having another child (because 1 is taboo!!!), your job etc etc. Family and friends only meddle because they love you so don't take offense to it - roll with the punches. As long as you are confident with your decision then you should be fine. I find we are most defensive when we are insecure with our decisions (myself included).

What if your family falls on hard times, you and your spouse both die young, or your child is born with a disability that they will have to live with long after you are gone?
------------

Most parents desperately hope and pray their children live long after they're gone, that's the point, children get to do that. they don't "have" to do that.

Hilarious that Bethesdan thinks there won't be enough doctors around in the future if I personally do not have a child!

To anon2: You wrote, "So many of the postings on this blog take the utilitarian approach to family and children -- what about the spiritual approach?"

My guess in the secular society that the US is, we have decided that people need to choose their spiritual approach themselves. They need to decide what their God or higher power requires or requests the procreation of children. I know different faiths have really different views on the subject.

I think Bethesdan needs to change the tinfoil in his hat.
What a Joke - I agree! Nice to know we have such major influence on the course of human existence!! hehe

Natural selection takes many forms. Those who are too self-centered to have children are doing future generations a favor.

Bethesdan - YOU accuse people of having a morally superior attitude? Pot, meet kettle...
------

Definitely did not, that would be way too ironic. Is anyone reading more than one line of my posts?

Buh Bye!

Fo4, welcome back! You were sorely missed.

And Scarry, thanks for going after him... ;)

"I often wonder what effect our childhood has on our own desire to have a family."

Just wanted to give a perspective on this. I grew up in a wonderful family. Loving and nurturing, with parents still happily married after 40 years. Don't know why it is, but of three daughters two have decided not to have children. Luckily -- for my parents -- the middle one did. I have heard all of the comments the guest blogger shared. My parents have finally stopped bugging me, but it helps that I am the oldest, so they think it is too late for me. The youngest still gets some pressure. It doesn't cause too much tension, but it is hard for my mother and sister with children to understand. Sometimes I also get the impression that they think my not having children is somehow a judgement on their choices or a rejection of my upbringing. It absolutely is not, but it does hurt me to know that my mother sometimes thinks "what did I do wrong, that my daughters don't want children of their own." It is hard for me to articulate, but I do emphasize that it had nothing to do with my childhood. I think it really has more to do with my adulthood -- when I learned that having children was an option and not an given. It took my getting out into the real world to see all kinds of different examples of how people lived their lives.

Some of the comments made to the people who have chosen not to have children sound a lot like the comments I hear when I tell people that I don't want any more children than the one that I have. I've been told that my son needs a playmate and that it's selfish to want only one child and that he'll grow up spoiled if I don't give him a brother or sister.

I can never understand why the choice my husband and I made to share our lives with just one child is anyone else's concern.

Ms L, you simply should have told your friend that she could not use your house as her "vacation base" at that time. Sorry, but you allowed her to abuse your friendship. On the other hand, what a pill she must have been! Don't worry about losing that "friend", I'm sure you have many better ones.

Hilarious that Bethesdan thinks there won't be enough doctors around in the future if I personally do not have a child!
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Wow! Again, never said that. Defensive much? One less child means one less talented adult, not many less talented adults. Your interpretation makes no sense.

sooo...just because some folks don't want children because they are selfish, it means that ALL childfree folks are selfish? For goodness sake, did anyone take a course in Logic in college??? How about people who have kids for selfish reasons? Does that mean ALL parents are selfish???
(Answer - NO!)

Something of a curious topic to post on this blog...the decision not to have kids.

I respect the choice, but do find it a curious topic nonetheless.

When people ask me if I have children, I tell them I am allergic to them (because I do practically break out in hives when children are around....)

sooo...just because some folks don't want children because they are selfish, it means that ALL childfree folks are selfish?
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Yes. They're both selfish for different reasons. I HAVE taken logic and you haven't refuted me.

Posted by anon:

.. always pleased when folks can admit that they'd make crappy parents and they spare potential children from suffering. People who say they don't want kids are about as self-centered as it gets.

_________________________________

I know I should assume troll and move on... but I want to say that some of us are not really concerned about lattes and vacations and more with balance. I have a job I find meaningful (teaching) and I don't think I would be as good at it if I needed to balance. Right now I am able to put my students first. I disagree vehemently with those who say you could never look back and regret not working hard enough.

I have seen a few friends get burned staying at home & having the marriage not work. I am not sure I would be happy taking the risk to walk away from a career I spent so many years toiling away for in grad school for (and which I truly love).

I also know that I don't handle pressure well. I think I would handle the trials of balancing worse than most. I am also prone to try to think through the worst case scenarios... parenting requires a leap of faith that can be hard for some of us. I have read about some of the struggles of parents with special-needs children & those only amplify the questions I have about my own strength.

actually, I really don't understand a point for today's guest posting. I thought this is a blog for work-family balance for parents. This submission will just pit those who don't have children by choice against those who do.

Anon2, I didn't need to have a child to learn to "really give" and to be less selfish. I think some parents feel that children made them less selfish, but I actually think maturity just comes from age, not only through raising children.

Also to Bethesdian:

There is a great sense irony in your argument. You say that because I don't want kids, I am selfish.

And because of that decision, I am depriving YOU?

Wow...

Also to Bethesdian:

There is a great sense irony in your argument. You say that because I don't want kids, I am selfish.

And because of that decision, I am depriving YOU?

Wow...

"It's just best not to ask people if they want kids, why they don't have them, etc. You never know if someone lost a child, can't have them or simply doesn't want them. It's really none of your business."

Scarry --

This is so true. In much the same way that people -- strangers included -- feel free to go up to pregnant women and touch their bellies, many people -- strangers included -- feel it's their business to ask childfree women intrusive, personal questions and advise them as to when and why their minds will change.

But none of us can know the reasons behind anyone else's decision, and none of us has the right to probe.

Thanks for reminding us of this!

I think it's hard in this day and age to look at the rising number of childless couples and not see selfishness. For the good of the world, literally, well-off individuals in committed relationships should be having children.

Logically the only actions or lack of actions that should be considered immoral are the ones that we would not suggest the entire world do or not do. I'm sure we can all agree that the entire world should not stop reproducing, therefore, morally speaking, the decision to not reproduce is arguably immoral. It becomes more so when the excuse given is you're not the 'maternal' type, or it would make your life less pleasant--even though you could afford it with no real issue.

People who say they would not make good mothers/fathers and that, though they see others doing it, they could not juggle their demands at work and home successfully, are subscribing to a theory of life totally devoid of personal responsibility and choice. They say that you should have the choice to have children or not, and yet, in the same breath, say they couldn't do it. That isn't really a choice. Luckily for them, they actually do have a choice. It's just a choice they're not willing to make.

They're not willing to make the financial and lifestyle sacrifices necessary to raise a successful little human being that will be alive when they're dead and gone and capable of making sure our civilization continues to thrive. I fail to see how one could call that decision anything but selfish. Either such people should embrace selfishness as a positive quality or acknowledge it as a flaw within them and attempt to remedy it--rationalizing it away with words like 'choice' and/or 'freedom' is delusional. No one is making anyone have children, but that doesn't mean that out of hand there isn't a right and wrong choice.

DON'T FEED THE BETHESDAN TROLL!!!

It's what the trolls want. Just ignore them, and they'll go away, I promise.

I really have to agree with Glover Park - this guest blog seems to me to be out of place on this blog. The blog as far as I understand it is about balancing work and family/life. Now I understand that family/life doesn't have to mean kids it could me elder parents or even pets. But this topic is solely on the fact that the poster doesn't want kids. How does this help those of us who are trying to figure out how to juggle work and family life???

Just something to toss out there: how much has the element of "parent as everything" to their child factored into decisions to not have children?

Consider:
1. You must play Mozart to your fetus
2. If you don't breastfeed, you're a terrible person
3. Be sure to get those Baby Einstein tapes.
4. You must get your child into the "right pre-school"
5. Find the right play group
6. Schedule every minute of your child's time

Most of us did not grow up with this idea of parenthood, but it seems to be the new standard. Maybe parenthood would be a more appealing option if potential parents felt there was more community support, less pressure to be perfect and greater encouragement of just letting kids play and be kids.

Fabworkingmom, you're spot on. I was fine defending my decision not to have kids.

It was only when I wanted them and learned I couldn't have them that all that familial interest started to feel a lot less loving.

In response to Ms L & nonametoday-
"Most of all of you childless posters today seem very friendly towards parents and children. Have any of you had friendships suffer greatly because of the choice to have kids?"

"We started to see less and less of them and felt very lonely as a couple."

My husband and I are the only childless couple in a pretty big group of friends. We love kids and have never treated those friends differently now that they are parents.

What we have noticed is that we have slowly been "let go" of the club b/c we are not parents. We don't get invited to the usual adult get togethers or birthday parties for the little ones.

Despite our genuine/sincere interest to see how our friends and their kids are doing, we are not viewed/thought of in the same manner.

If friendships have suffered, it has been on the parents side with their new obligations and time constraints.

Friendship, no matter what stage it is in, is a VOLUNTARY relationship. As time passes, we, as a childless couple have given more than our fair share and really haven't seen ANY reciprocation.

...just because some folks don't want children because they are selfish, it means that ALL childfree folks are selfish?

Nope, not at all. Many people choose to remain childfree for excellent reasons. Author Dean Koontz comes to mind as he has chosen not to have children because of the risk of a genetic disease that runs in his family.

I don't worry about population levels, though. For every childless couple in the US, there's a Mormon couple having their eighth, ninth, or tenth child to fill in the gaps.

I guess I don't understand why some people care so greatly about how others live their lives. I'm interested in what people are doing, but only in a kind of objective way (I hope). I do have children, but if others don't want to, fine with me.

Scarry, LOL about "how do we do it"! Talking about snappy comebacks (which I usually think of 4 hours later while soaking in the tub), whenever I was asked "how much longer are you going to breastfeed" with any of my three kids, I would respond "I don't know. When do you think I should stop?" That usually drove the point home that it was, in fact, none of the questioner's BUSINESS -- as is anyone's decision to have or not have children.

Morgan, I am sorry but that is an extremely judgmental attitude. What if I told you that you were selfish because you were not raising your children a certain way, the way I think is correct?? Where does the judging end? What happened to live and let live? Our right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness, etc.? What about people who DON'T raise a successful human being, rather a sociopath bent on destroying society?
What about the childree people who work in orphanages, or are taking care of sick parents? or disabled siblings? This sweeping generalization is really sickening...
also, the world is not going to become depopulated anytime soon. sheesh.

And thanks scarry for getting Father of 4 back on board.

As we can see from today, his mere presence alone is a "Tongue Test" for those who have no sense of humor whatsoever!

I have a job I find meaningful (teaching) and I don't think I would be as good at it if I needed to balance.
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You do understand that you're raising kids, right? Or at least "raising" teenagers or young adults in college. I mean, being a teacher is absolutely getting right in there and raising kids. So why would you think that any of that selfishness relates to you? My comments specifically state (though they seem wildly mis-read) that raising children is paying back for all the help we also got as kids. You're front and center paying society back, moreso than even some parents. So you've got that balance and of anyone, none of these criticisms fit you. Why did you read them that way?

To Fabworkingmom:

"I really have to agree with Glover Park - this guest blog seems to me to be out of place on this blog. The blog as far as I understand it is about balancing work and family/life. Now I understand that family/life doesn't have to mean kids it could me elder parents or even pets. But this topic is solely on the fact that the poster doesn't want kids. How does this help those of us who are trying to figure out how to juggle work and family life???"

I think this is a good resource for people who might still be on the fence about the decision of kids or no kids.

Also, I like reading the posts here because it gives me a sense of what others lives are like.

I still consider my husband and I a family unit, even though we don't have any kids. We have balancing issues as well, just not the kind that involves children.

It's really weird that people care about other people's choices. Is there some kind of wacky religious agenda going on?
The choice to give birth includes a number of risks, including infidelity by the husband. The majority of men who cheat on their wifes cheat on their wives the FIRST TIME when their wives are pregnant with their FIRST CHILD.

A lot of people who set workplace polices aren't married and/or don't have children,
but they do check out this blog.

Pittypat, you are correct. People do feel the need to touch a pregnant women's belly. That's a no no too, unless you are friends. Riding on the same metro car does not make you a friend. :)

Rufus,

Many other people besides "Mormons," who by the way prefer to be called LDS, have big families too, no need to signal them out.

To "no name today":

Actually, it illuminates another way to balance -- eliminate some of the issue. There are choices to be made to balance home and work, and for some this a conscious decision to not have children and keep their own balance.

I am sort of the opposite. My husband and I are trying to have kids, but have not been able to so far, despite just completing our first attempt at IVF. We have 3 frozen embryos and will try again soon. If those don't work, not sure we'll have the $$ to try another fresh cycle of IVF *and* still have $$ for adoption if that does not work. BUUUUUT, I constantly feel judged incorrectly to be "one of those" women have "chosen" not to have kids. It is so ironic!!!! Just b/c I do not wear our numerous stuggles on my sleeve and try to keep a positive upbeat face to the rest of the world, people assume: 1) that I am "a career woman" (I hate my job and wish I could stay home with kids. . I only work for the $$ for these treatments), 2) that we are "waiting" (no, we started "trying" one month after we got married), 3) that we are "preventing" (this comes from my Catholic family who casts a morally disapproving eye towards this point of view. . ummm, no, it just hasn't happened), 4) that I waited too long (I am 33) (ummmm, no, I met my husband when I was 28, got married when I was 30, and just started trying), 5) that we are too financially strapped to have kids (ummm, this may eventually get to be true if we have to shell out $15K each time we want to try to have a kid, or more if we eventually turn towards adoption), AND SO MANY MORE ASSUMPTIONS THAT, AS LUCK WOULD HAVE IT, ARE FALSE. :( It just makes me feel sad and misunderstood. It is so ironic that people who want to be childless feel they are misunderstood, people who have children often kvetch about their kids on this blog, and people like me WANT to be in the latter category but are assumed to be in the former category! AGH! Maybe we are ALL just misjudged. :( Maybe the lesson is that nothing is "black and white" and we should treat everyone with a little bit more compassion and understanding, b/c you really just never know what is going on in people's lives.

Rufus - don't forget the Catholics! :-) I am from a family of 8 kids...my siblings are picking my "slack". ;-)

Maybe if I had a kid I'd be producing a future doctor, but I might be spending more time with doctors now as a patient, rather than working and being a productive member of society rather than a burden on others.

I'm sorry other people without children treat you and your children poorly. I have great respect for parents, and am not one of those who complain about having to pay taxes for schools etc. I'm on this blog partly because parents' needs and desires for flexibility at work has helped employers I've had be more aware that employees have needs and desires for a life outside of work. Too much time working, or rigid inflexibility, means less time available to do the other important things in life, whether it's raising the next generation, volunteer work, friendships, community involvement, etc. I don't think any of these are purely "selfish" pursuits.

So, Bethesdan, you're saying that I should "give back" by simply birthing a child? And, if I'm too selfish to do that, I should put someone else's kid through med school?

If all it takes to pay one's societal debt is to produce offspring, then I'm quite sure there are more than enough people out there producing more than enough offspring to compensate for my lack of a contribution.

exactly missicat, and don't forget the baptists.

There are some trolls out here today--not many, but please don't feed them. Ignore them and they will go away. And some of their names are anon and bethesdan.

Meesh, I feel exactly the way you do, but about dogs!) I have 2 kids and a cat. We have thought about getting a dog because I had one when I was a kid and loved her. The reality is --we just can't handle it. We may be selfish for not adopting a pound puppy, but it would not get the attention it would need, the walks, the medical attention. Or it would, but I would resent it. They are a big expense. It's not just food and water! I really do love dogs, and if my life was different, I might have one, but since it is what it is, I enjoy my sister's dog, my neighbors dog. (sometimes--freaking yappy dogs--why does she let them stay outside until 10 p.m.? Sometimes I feel like wringing their cute little necks, but I know it is just the nature of the beast. I should be wringing hers for not taking care of them. She doesn't even walk them--just lets them out in the back yard. No structure. )

Did anyone read the article in the WaPo magazine about the two friends--one who had cancer but adopted a child anyway? The one friend said she couldn't support this choice. The friendship ended, the cancer ridden friend died and left a five year old girl behind. Since she was single, the child was adopted by another couple. It was well written. I really enjoyed (and totally related to) the description of her 'flawed marriage', etc.

And to the childless posters--you rock. I needed to have kids like I needed to breathe. If you don't want them, don't have them! Sell your fab genes and make some money -- or don't. Why people care about this escapes me, but I agree with the vegetarian post. Kids can put a damper on your life, even if they are wonderful. Maybe they see you spontaneously rushing off to the islands in Jan because of that last minute good deal--they can't. You have a house and a beach condo cause you aren't saving for a kids college education. I think we all have a tendency to measure our life against anothers. Personally, as someone who had to have massive medical intervention to even take my first breathe, I am just happy to be here.

And please, all you dog lovers, please don't rush out to tell me how I would be a great dog owner. I do love dogs! I just don't want one of my own! And I really wish those of you who have them and don't take care of them (you know who you are, and this isn't for those of you who do) would clean up their messes, keep them from barking outside all day and night, keep them on a leash, and train them. If you do, I will continue doing these very same things with my children!

Seriously.

DON'T FEED THE BETHESDAN TROLL!!!
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Someone with a strong opinion you disagree with equals troll now? Actually, I am hurt. I can't see a single person who seems to responded to what I wrote with any kind of critical eye. This is why I stay off public blogs, because the quality of discussion is quite low. Strong ideas are squashed because they might offend. Well, some activities are worth criticizing. Almost every response to my strongly-worded post created a bizarre straw man and some purposely mis-quoted me. Okay... that makes ME a troll in your eyes? I'm lost.

I'm a parent who can see both sides because I've seen both sides. I have two grown children--one a happy, well-adjusted adult who was a joy to raise, and the other a desperately unhappy person who was unhappy from day one. Perhaps it was all her mom's and my fault, but perhaps not. In any case, we did neither her nor ourselves any favor by having her. So, in retrospect, it was a crapshoot. Would I advise someone else to take that chance? Maybe not.

People, Bethesdan and Anon are what we call "trolls". They keep posting vitriolic posts trying to pick a fight until someone responds to them-- then they're off to the races. Ignore them, do not feed them-- it just rewards negative behavior.

There's virtually no opinon in the world (even offensive ones) that can't be expressed with some degree of manners. You can be passionate and opinionated without being mean and nasty. Let's all work to reinforce some basic decorum on this blog, even if we disagree about the issues.

I shouldn't be suprised that some posters are still insisting that people without children are selfish even after all the thoughtful posts.

Why are we wasting our breath?

"The characterizing feature of trolling is the perception of intent to disrupt a community in some way. Inflammatory, sarcastic, disruptive or humorous content is posted, meant to draw other users into engaging the troll in a fruitless confrontation. The greater the reaction from the community the more likely the user is to troll again."

"So many of the postings on this blog take the utilitarian approach to family and children -- what about the spiritual approach?"

How do you know that the spiritual approach isn't part of a childfree couple's decision? If you're assuming it wasn't, then you apparently acknowledge spirituality only when it produces the outcome you want.

Parttimer - thanks for the post! Dogs are great,but prefer cats...

I also find it hysterical that people think I am rolling in money because I don't have kids. Believe me, I do NOT take off on glamorous and expensive vacations, nor do I have a closetful of designer clothes. I have a 7 year old car and while I live in a decent part of town, I have a very small condo. Not on the beach, unfortunately...

Wow - I never realized that people I did not know would be so angry with me for deciding not to have children!

And Scarry was right on about the various reasons people may or may not have children - I do not ask even very good friends as to their plans - you don't know the reason and if it's because they cannot or are having a hard time, they may not want to share (of course then I had a friend who could not believe that I had no idea that they were having fertility problems, since she was 33 and had been married for 7 years - I just told her that I assumed they were waiting and it was none of my business to ask - guess I could have! :) )

Every time I read a post arguing that refusing to have children is immoral or selfish, I can't help but suspect that the poster really wants "people like me" (well-off, educated) to reproduce. Otherwise our country will be overrun with Mexicans, or some other unfavored group. Anyone else getting that impression?

When my husband and I married, I was committed to being childless. I didn't believe I "liked" children, particularly any of my own. After 8 years of marriage, I did change my mind. You just never know. But, especially during the first few years of my marriage I would get very bothered by those well-meaning fold who would try to convince me I did't know myself very well. In fact, had I become a mother early on, I probably wouldn't have been a very good mother. Now, I think I'm a great mother because I wanted to be one. Forced or coerced motherhood is never a good situation.

Well, as the story goes . . . the blogger today is not alone. I was once there. But, now I am here. I was happy in both places.

However, I think that the person who wrote about the people who convince others to get a dog had a good point. When someone is very happy with a choice, he or she often can't help himself/herself with sharing that knowledge. The well-meaning people aren't really condemning the "childless choice" as much as saying what a wonderful thing they've found in their choice to have children. Once you view it that way, it's easier to see that the comments aren't criticisms, but reflections on the people's own situations. Make sense?

"Maybe I want to have more educated doctors when I'm 80 and your decision just robbed my future of one more scientist, doctor, author, actor or volunteer?"

What if someone follows your advice and (instead of taking the time to become a doctor) focuses on raising a lot of sons and daughters who follow your advice and (instead of taking the time to become doctors) focus on raising a lot of sons and daughters who follow your advice and (instead of taking the time to become doctors) focus on raising a lot of sons and daughters who follow your advice...?

Give back? Pay back what others 'gave you'? What wacked out kind of logic is that? Sorry, but from my pov, a gift is a GIFT. Not a loan. What you do with that gift is up to you. To all of you taxpaying, childless people who do not have kids clogging up our already crowded schools (Loudon is a MESS!), I thank you. You are giving back simply by working at whatever job you have chosen, even if it is xyz (can't think of a good example), because you are contributing $$$. I sincerely wish my cousin had had HER tubes tied at 18. Or my aunt and uncle, who had 4 kids even though they were the poster people for selfishness. Talk about some neglected children.

Suspicious - read my earlier posting re: someone who said people "like me" should have kids...it made me uncomfortable because I am pretty sure she meant what you are referring to.

I've heard a lot of people with kids talk about how having kids has made them better people - more giving, loving, generous and less sefish. I don't buy it.

The patience, love and generosity were already there. They just weren't being fully expressed.

Thanks Pittypat, for the very good point.

A lovely, fulfilling kind of spirituality is to turn yourself over mind, body and soul to ONE other individual or idea, or to a community. Priests and nuns seem to do a pretty good job of finding spiritual fulfillment without reproducing. The freedom and trust to give yourself entirely to something outside yourself (like parenting, or marriage, or teaching) produces some wonderful results.

The problems lie in a society which tells us we must be all things to ALL people. Like our own parents who insist we can't be whole until we have children, (eg: provide grandchildren for them) or our friends who badger us to go on blind dates...

And parttimer: I don't know how you sleep at night, being so selfish that you won't adopt a pound puppy! For shame!! ;-)

"Unless you want to cut yourself off from anybody who has children, I think you've got to figure out how you want to fit in, and then maybe work on that some."

RoseG --

It's unfortunate about your sister, but really it's your baggage that's allowing her comments to bother you. So what if she got clothes for college years ago? Why is that still an issue for you?

Maybe you need to work on some of your own stuff.

Exactly. And those people will be raising their kids to think and act just "like them". Thanks for the contribution to society, jerks.

I am sorry your childless friend was such a pill... My general read (though I could be wrong) is that my friends with kids enjoy my visits because I am low maintenance, flexible, and they have an extra set of hands around to prepare dinner, etc. I have never been much of one for dressing up, clubbing, exotic vacations, so I the parental social scene is fine for me. I thorougly enjoy kids - but don't want my own (I posted as to the trolls at 10:30).

p.s. Fo4 I am great with the raspberries. Some first time parents don't know that they can magically quiet a child as young as a few weeks old - so I can come off as a skilled babysitter with just this trick.

I have no problem with people deciding to have kids or not to. But I am all for people keeping themselves open to the possibilities, whatever they may be. In my 20s and early 30s, I did think kids were in the picture for me. I did not have that yearning for children, and my life circumstances were not great for having kids either. But one day things changed. I married a man I love, and who also wanted kids. Somehow, it felt right, so we had a child. It was a lot of work, so much that for a while, I thought we could only do one child. But then that child got a little older and independent, and he is such a joy that we decided to try for another. So we are trying. I am 40, and it may be too late for another child, so I have to be open to the possibility that it may not happen either. Still, I am grateful for the opportunity to try. I am grateful that I changed my mind about children and had one. I am grateful for a loving husband and good life. I would have never had these had I shut the door on the possibilities.

The US birthrate is 1.9 children per woman-- that plus immigration makes for positive population growth, so we needn't worry that our society will collapse because of lack of doctors or social security payees in the future.

However, in Europe they ARE having a problem with low population growth. (E.g. Germany's birthrate is 1.4 children per woman; a recent German magazine had a picture of two forty-somethings on the cover and the headline "How will we live?" meaning, who will pay into the generous social security system when the current generation gets old.) Two stories on NPR recently discussed how France has managed to have one of the highest birthrates in France by offering numerous incentives to moms, and in particular, by supporting mothers in their careers (extended maternity leave, 3-year job protection if you take longer unpaid leave, universal free pre-school, numerous "on-ramps" back to part- or full-time employment, etc.). 80% of French women work outside the home-- and a French government official said on the NPR story "No woman should be forced to choose between working and having a child." There are additional supports, e.g. family discounts on train tickets, tax breaks and direct payments to families with small children, etc.

The US doesn't need these policies for population growth (whether we'd like them for other reasons is another debate); but hypothetcially speaking, if these policies were in place, would that induce any of the childfree folks posting today to reconsider having kids? It doesn't sound like it would-- perhaps it would just push fence sitters over the edge. Or perhaps it would make families with one kid go for number two and three. Germany already has some, though not all, of these policies in place and it doesn't seem to be helping much. Thoughts?

I'm reminded of an old Ann Landers column which queried parents about whether they'd have children if they had it to do over again. Seventy percent responded with "no" but with the caveat that they loved their own individual children. I can't help but feel that some of those who replied "no" were women who didn't really want kiddos but were pressured into doing the expected. In the twenty or more years since that column appeared there still seems to be pressure to produce.

I don't think that I can recall having heard anyone publically query a parent about whether she or he would still have children if the choice was hers or his to do over again yet childfree people are frequently asked about their reproductive plans.

My husband and I have been married for more than thirty years, have never wanted children, and don't have any. We've not regretted that choice.

To WDC--I know; I will probably rot in hell for it and live an unfufilled life, have an old age full of regrets. But for the here and now, I am not scoopin poop--just cleaning up hairballs from my cat (nice a.m. graphic for ya).

I can't get over people who say it is selfish NOT to have kids. Quite the opposite--having children is a decision that people make to fulfill their own lives while taking a gamble with the life of the one(s) they are creating. No doubt, children involve great sacrifice and selflessness in order to nurture and provide for them once they are here, let's be real here--the actual decision to have children is a selfish one at its core.
I have one child, I love her dearly and I would go to the ends of the earth to make her happy. But I know that the decision to have a child was FOR ME and to satisfy MY needs (including the expectations for my life). If people are really honest with themselves, I think they would have to admit that the decision to have children is a selfish one.
Now I just hope and pray that I didn't sacrifice another human being's happiness to satisfy my own need for fulfillment at this point in my life.
I don't think for a moment that everyone reading will even understand my point, but for those who choose to remain childless, I think they would agree, at the most basic level, the decision to remain childless is not selfish at all.

I believe that people who are always questionning/judging/belittling other people's choices do it either because they feel this puts their own choices in question or because they truly think that their choice is "the" only right choice. This goes for stay at home moms vs working mom, vegetarian vs omnivore, parent vs childless. The truth is very simple: there is not one right choice and we should all feel secure enough in our own choices for our own lives and families not to have to question other people's choices, motives etc.
Can we accept the fact that some people know themselves well enough