There was an article in Baltimore Sun yesterday regarding college admission. there are more females in college than males.

Father of 4 - I thought of you right away. The article touched on the fact that boys tend to be underachievers in school more than girls. They more often have lower grades with high SAT scores. There was mention of the fact that non-cognitive skills were involved. Qualities such as sitting still and patience are stronger among girls.

Basically, a lot of boys do very well on testing, but not so great with their grades. Interesting. At least one college is adjusting their admissions by accepting lower GPA's with higher SAT's. This is not discriminatory because any girls who fall into that category would also be accepted.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/education/bal-te.md.towson29oct29,0,4992518.story?coll=bal-home-headlines

Interesting topic.

I'd say the best thing my father ever did for me was treat me as his kid, NOT as his daughter. When I decided to repaint my (Ford) Bronco, he showed me how to do it, from start (sanding), to middle (primer), to the finish (new paint job). He never once alluded that this might not 'be my thing' because I was a girl.

I'm not sure if I'm saying we should completely strip gender-based references for all boys and girls, but other times, I think it would be a really good idea.

Yes the pendulum has swung against boys, especially on the TV. Look at the commercials; the men are shown as clueless, klutzes, incompetent, stupid or losers, while the women are the ones competently running the house, fixing it up, and generally keeping their husbands from blowing it up or killing themselves.

I fully intend to make sure my son/daughter, when I am blessed with one, knows how to cook, build furniture, operate power tools safely, plant a garden, change their oil, what the 'intentional grounding' rule is and how to bunt a runner over to second base. If they want to be a cook or a mechanic, I'll support their choice, and I will never tell them that they cannot do something because of the sex they happen to be.

As for "sex and success", yes I have! :)

Talk to high school kids. They are the future. The boys cook and clean, the girls build things and work in the yard, etc. They have been raised by parents who believe that the sexes are equal. John, don't worry about tv. Keep your child busy with all those excellent pursuits, and s/he won't have time to watch the insipid programming that tv offers to us.

An interesting question. I've grown up with two clashing (and misleading) stereotypes: as an Asian, I'm very good at math while as a girl, I'm not so good at math. Which one wins?

My parents never really influenced one stereotype one way or the other (certainly not the one about Asians!) The expectations and influences came from OUTSIDE the home. I grew up with the same tired cliches as Leslie - a woman's success was measured by the man they snared("marry a doctor") rather than their own accomplishments. But my teachers, friends and acquaintances always made the assumption that I was a math whiz because of my ethnicity (do people really think of China as filled with 1.3 billion math whizs?). Then, the thought was I would go on to success on my own efforts - I could become the doctor or scientist or engineer or any other science/math based career.

This is interesting because the most sexist, backward thing that was ever said to me came from an internship manager. She was an ivy leaguer and thought she was oh so important, but couldn't connect well with anyone around her because of her attitude.

I was her intern for the summer. One day towards the end of my time there she took me into an office and told me that if my husband was going to succeed as an executive, which was what he wants to do someday, that I was going to have to lose my hick dialect and learn how to entertain. I was shocked and ask her what she meant by entertain and she said "well, you are going to have to be responsible for dinner parties and are going to be expected to clean up well and go out to dinner with executives." She also constantly compared me to another girl who always got her nails done and she also told me that if I wanted children I would never be able to have a position like hers. So much for mentoring young college students!

So, like I have said before, sometimes it's the women who hold each other down and make each other feel bad about ourselves. I felt like telling her boss who seemed like a very big feminist what she said, but I thought why bother. No one likes her so that in itself is the best revenge.

Father of 4 sky report from my two year old. She woke up today and ran to the window and said the sky looked like a rainbow and it did with bold pastels that seemed to melt right into the rising sun. It was very pretty.

"Look at the commercials; the men are shown as clueless, klutzes, incompetent, stupid or losers, while the women are the ones competently running the house, fixing it up, and generally keeping their husbands from blowing it up or killing themselves."

Aren't most of the above written by men who are reflecting their childhood experiences with their fathers??

My family comes from a country stricken with poverty, discrimination, and where women manage the house and raise the children. As I was brought up in the U.S., these gender expectations became less important than my education. My parents came to the states wanting for me something better. They taught me the importance my education, career pursuits, and financial independency. Things are changing back home, but I believe such basic rights as education and equal pay are key for women of color around the world.

To paraphrase something a friend of mine says:

"I don't believe in equality between the sexes. I've always thought women were far superior to men and I would never want a man to think he was my equal."

Yes, I think there's a culture of discrimination against men by women today, and there has been for some time. It's still a bit too early to look for changes in equal representation of women in high powered government roles, for example, but it's coming. The times, they are a changin'.

Yes the pendulum has swung against boys, especially on the TV. Look at the commercials; the men are shown as clueless, klutzes, incompetent, stupid or losers, while the women are the ones competently running the house, fixing it up, and generally keeping their husbands from blowing it up or killing themselves.

---------------------------------

But the women come across as no-fun perfectionists - who spend the day running around with Windex bottles. The klutzes are at least likable.

I was a child of the '80s, and I never grew up feeling that there was anything I couldn't do. It never even occurred to me that there were real differences in ability between boys and girls.

Imagine my surprise when as a college sophomore, I attended a management class full of male business majors. I'd never heard such a load of virulent crap -- women can't be bosses because they're too catty and emotional; they'd never agree to work for a chick; women shouldn't be taking jobs away from men when they're just going to quit and have babies, anyway.

By that time, of course, I was far too old to let these troglodytes' comments make me feel bad about myself. Instead, I felt bad for them, because surely they'd face a reality check when they entered the workforce.

Wow! I was just thinking about all these questions over the weekend when my fourth grader daughter announced that she was "just not good at math." where did that come, I wondered? Where did she hear that? And I began to wonder about all the times girls announce this and at least in my daughter's case, follow it up with a torrent of tears, and then in certain instances, the parent utters some version of "don't worry your pretty little head about all that" and the child basically stops progressing in math. I certainly had the urge to do just that this weekend.

In my daughter's case, she has a male teacher for the first time this year. And some part of me started to wonder if maybe he had different expectations for the girls and the boys in the class -- which never occurred to me when m son had a female teacher. do you think it makes a difference -- the sex of the teacher?

Basically, a lot of boys do very well on testing, but not so great with their grades. Interesting. At least one college is adjusting their admissions by accepting lower GPA's with higher SAT's. This is not discriminatory because any girls who fall into that category would also be accepted.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/education/bal-te.md.towson29oct29,0,4992518.story?coll=bal-home-headlin

----------------------------------

There is a less sinister reason for this.
GPA tends to correllate better with success in college, because it better reflects a students willingness to take responsibility for learning. SATs were intended to predict success in college and they are failing at this task. College admissions will never be perfect, but your allegation is unfair.

"women shouldn't be taking jobs away from men when they're just going to quit and have babies, anyway."

Um, isn't that what you did? I mean, quit and have a baby? So didn't your class have a point, sort of?

My big worry is the number of students who pick elementary ed that didn't like math and science at all. I worry that many kids must hit teachers who might (unintentionally) pass on their distaste for these subjects.

I was also raised to believe I could do anything back in the 60s and 70s. I was in engineering with all guys. I never really developed those 'female' skills scarry talked about: hosting parties (much less the acclaimed themed parties the rest of the neighborhood ladies seem to thrive on), get nails done, etc. Heck, I never really learned to apply makeup! I never felt inferior when I was working with guys. Now that I'm at home, I do feel inferior to all those SAHMs in the neighborhood. I just can't be a chameleon.

I graduated from high school in 1984, and what I felt was a girl had to be everything. Not just pretty or polite, but pretty, polite, going to a high-powered university with an impressive major and a fantastic summer internship/career waiting(usually doctor/lawyer/business). It was too much. Do we have to be everything?Meanwhile, I have had two college experiences in which men were in the minority.In one case, the college had only recently become co-ed. It seemed that the men being admitted were not very bright, and used their minority status to manipulate students, teachers, and administrators. Some of them got away with shoddy work, and awful behavior. This whole thing was facilitated by women as much as men. It wasn't a very good time to be a young woman.
I do believe the young people today have it all together more than we did. I certainly encourage my son to pursue what interests him, not what is the most lucrative/popular career. And he will certainly go off to college knowing how to do his own laundry and how to clean a toilet!

I think feminism definitely had a positive influence on me. Both of my parents told me that I could do anything I wanted to do. My father taught me how to throw a football, change a tire, and coached my little league baseball team. My mother was a stay at home mom for part of my childhood, but she made it very clear through words and actions, that she and my dad were equals. I am absolutely positive that the self-confidence and, maybe more importantly, the options my parents gave me enabled me to ignore the inevitable sexism I encountered later in life.

And I honestly can't recall ever witnessing overt sexism until I was in college, but it could be I just wasn't as aware of it. I do, however, remember being absolutely stunned at the views of a man in one of my college seminars, when he insisted that his wife would stay at home and support his career and raise his children because that was what she was "supposed" to do. Until that moment I hadn't realized there were still people like that in the world.

http://lawyermama.blogspot.com

to mj - I didn't think that there was anything sinister, and I certainly didn't mean to be alleging anything. I just thought it was interesting. FWIW, my underachieving high school student with GPA below 3.0 and high SAT scores is now a college freshman (not at towson university). The child is my daughter.

I do understand the idea that GPA is a better indicator of college completion, but I also think that maturity plays a part. My daughter is still working on her procrastination tendencies and I am already seeing improvement over her high school work ethic.

Aronson. Not Aaronson.

Too early in the morning - I had read the Towson approach backwards so my reply makes no sense. A few liberal arts colleges have moved away from SATs entirely so that was what was on my radar. (I am a prof so I find the admissions question more interesting than I should). Most schools are just trying to find a way to correct for whatever they perceive to be out of balance at their school & the tools are imperfect.

I specialize in interface development for computer software, because I prefer it to "back-end" coding. I do actually still some back-end coding in one or two languages, which are on my resume, but if you examine my resume, I don't stress these skills. But my interface skills are hardly "soft" - there is some serious technical work involved in what I do. I read lots of boring journals and can speak acronym with the best programmer out there ;)

So I went to one of those "team" job interviews a few years back, and one of the people I had to talk to really wasn't a fit for my skill set. The person I was supposed to speak to had a family emergency, so they asked this man to sit in. He focused in on one line item on my resume - work done three years previously using a proprietary database and coding language. It is the only time this language shows up on my resume.

I explained what I had done in the language, which was just beyond a beginner's level of coding, maybe an early mid-level developer. It was on my resume to show that I had experience and exposure to the language, but it was not mentioned in my overview and was generally minimized on the resume. (One of those resume gurus told me to keep it on in this manner.)

So we talked for a bit, and when I gave him the "was there anything I can clear up for you" question, I got a doozy of an answer. He told me something along the lines that since I wasn't an expert in that one line-item I was pretty much "useless". (Gee, that's always nice to hear!)

I was ready to counter this, but he continued. Since I didn't have "any technical skills" (what?!?!?), but I obviously knew how to communicate intelligently and "cleaned up well" (I was wearing a suit for the interview), then he thought I'd only be useful writing documentation and speaking to clients.

But wait for the punchline....this was because "his guys were so incredibly smart, they just didn't know how to communicate or figure out what to wear." Because I guess being smart and being professional are mutually exclusive.

I managed to remain pleasant, somehow. I credit that to my mother, who is a combination of Miss Manners and Martha Stewart.

Basically, I was being told "well, aren't you pretty for such a stupid girl". I have been hit on in the office before, and have dealt with it gracefully and in a manner that has never impeded my professional growth. It's something many more mature male colleagues have commented on, actually - my ability to handle the sexist idiots and to let bygones be bygones. But to be told in an interview that my professional skills were lacking but that I looked nice?

Despite getting a positive vibe from all the other interviewers, I didn't get the job (duh). I didn't consider it a great loss. Who'd want to work for someone with that attitude - male or female (because I've run across women who have actually held the same attitude, just didn't express it so bluntly)?

Re: TV Men being persecuted

Hey, at least all the fat, hapless schlubs get hot wives and girlfriends!

I've noticed at local playgroups that toddler GIRLS carrying extra weight are referred to as chubby or fat babies. The BOYS, however, are said to be future football players or future athletes. Ugh.. this is how it starts...

I was raised to believe I could do anything I wanted - be anything I wanted - and to never put myself in a position to rely on anyone else to meet my basic needs. Lots of girl power in my family with nine out of ten cousins/siblings being female. My rude awakening came when I hit the job market. As a paralegal, I had collateral duties of getting the attorneys lunch and coffee. The male paralegal I worked with got invited TO lunch and happy hours. His job was seen as a stepping stone while mine was seen as a career. I continued on with my education thinking I could escape such gender issues in a different field. After receiving a Masters from the top school in the US for my field, I still ran into the same gender stereotypes when in meetings with mostly male counterparts. Hon - can you get us some coffee? I don't even drink coffee... Now, ten years into my professional career, it happens less. Maybe things are changing?

You could always ask them if their legs were broke or tell them to get their own.

The point I was making about men being shown as incompetent on TV is it is pretty much everywhere, not just in the sit-coms (which have a lot of them too). The commercials are replete with it, from the man in his truck who refuses to use his computer navigational system, to the one blowing up his grill (something you'd assume a man should know how to do) while his wife shows off the blinds, to the man doing a belly dance in his underware while his wife talks about phone service choices. I do like the Vonage commercial with the ditzy blond wanting to go "play with the dolphins", though. :)

Clueless women hardly ever shown on TV any longer because of the backlash that takes place; white men are the last group that can be shown to be stupid. While none of these are to be considered role models for developing male minds, I wonder if there is some form of impact on them anyway.

My 5th grader separated boys and girls this year for math and science as a result of fairly recent studies showing girls start to lag in math and science around this age. The idea is that girls will be less reluctant to speak up and participate/question in classes without boys. Anyone else seen this with their children? Does it work to keep girls interested in math and science?

Also a 1984 high school graduate, the first time I faced outright sexism was in college, at the University of Pennsylvania, in a Wharton finance class. The handful of women in the class had to stand up and/or walk to the front of the class to have a question answered while the professor (relatively young man) called on the men immediately. I switched to a college in the South where it was much more egalitarian, men and women were both called on in class, and it seemed as if women were encouraged to succeed in class much more than they were at Penn. I still find this surprising.

Oops, "my 5th grader's school"

I need more coffee.

If you're taking a job interview as a forum on you, you're mistaken. An interview can be a way to set salary for an internal hire. It can be used to meet an affirmative action goal for interviews. The purpose of an interview might be to give the interviewer experience in interviewing. You might be playing a part in a statistical selection: if 30 qualified people apply, interview 10 and hire the next person who is better than any you've interviewed so far.

'While none of these are to be considered role models for developing male minds'

I talk with my kids about how commercials are meant to get your attention and be amusing. They realize tv shows and commercials are not realistic.

'White men are the last group that can be shown to be stupid'

unfortunately that is true. I remember my dad complaining about the male roles on tv when I was a kid, so I guess this is not new.

'Hon - can you get us some coffee'

really, just say, no. Or sorry, I don't drink coffee. worked for me.

"Clueless women hardly ever shown on TV any longer because of the backlash that takes place"

Again, most of this stuff is written by MEN.

"And have we flipped some of our "girl" negativity to our sons?"

Yes. Have any of you gone to a recent suburban middle-school or high-school awards ceremony? The gender mix of the students honored for academic achievement is noticably skewed towards girls. Don't know why - but it is remarkable.

Clueless women hardly ever shown on TV any longer because of the backlash that takes place"

Again, most of this stuff is written by MEN.

Do you have any stats to back this up. I would really like to know how many men write this stuff.

Remember Ralph Kramden & Ed Norton from the Honeymooners?

I have seen first hand the "chubby" girl thing. People really make a bigger deal out of overweight little girls than boys.
This goes along with the whole "perfection" issue that girls faced when I was growing up....hoped it had gotten better.
I suppose the TV/movie thing is always unequal. I can't help wondering, does every famous woman have to be played by Nicole Kidman, and how come Adam Sandler is supposed to be so hilarious, and always gets the chicks? How about an average looking woman getting a hot guy for a change?

"Do you have any stats to back this up. I would really like to know how many men write this stuff."

Check it out at imdb.com.
There are women creators/writers, but the majority are men.

Dopey husband and father type stars such as Ray Romano and Tim Allen had a lot of control over the characters they played.

The first time I ever remember feeling that my gender affected my role in the workplace was just this past fall. In a supposedly enlightened, academic environment it seemed that because I wasn't "one of the boys" I was not getting the same access to information that would enable me to perform my job. Never in the prior 14 years of work experience did I ever have a similar experience; it was quite a shock, for though I understood conceptually that those attitudes might still be out there, I had never experienced it before.

power, power, you have it all, you can take your clothes off anytime, anywhere, thats perceived as sexy, you can have sex with underage boys and walk away with a tap on the wrist, you get the children and most of a mans money at the time of divorce, you can have any job you want, if you don't like what your husband or any other man says to you, get a restraining order against him, the courts hand them out to women , no questions asked, or sue him and get all of his money. girls, you've got it all.

Um...Guerilla Girls have pointed this out the best of anyone...see www.GuerillaGirls.org.

Can you name five living women directors of movies? Check the "Unchain the Women Directors" billboard campaign. Women directed only 7% of the top 200 films of 2005. The statistics for cinematography are even more depressing.

As a child of the 80s, I also grew up believing that I could - should - be a doctor, a lawyer, a chef, an astronaut - whatever I wanted. Going to college and being "good" at math weren't options. Now that I am six months away from being a lawyer, I realize that being held down is not a problem for women of my generation - the problem is the fact that we are supposed to be doctors and lawyers - and mothers, and wives, and entertainers, and chefs, and Martha Stewart. The funny thing is that we aren't even doing all of these things in order to keep a perfect house for a husband, we are doing it to show the world that we can. And we are doing it because we don't know who else will.

I truly appreciate the fact that the men of my generation are adapting to the changing role of women by taking a greater pride in keeping house and by being much more involved fathers... But where does it end? How do I tell my daughters (should I have any) that, yes, they can be anything they dream of, but they should also think about how that affects their lifestyle choices?

Notice how so many of our impressions are shaped by "the box"? Why not just turn it off or, better yet--leave it curbside? Spare yourself and your children the horrors of programming that defines people only by their ability to earn and consume. They--and you--are so much more than that.

Why not leave the magazines alone that present a one-sided image of women in page after page of sexist advertising. Skip the manicures and fashions that are intended to say "I don't work," because you do work and you're proud of it. Stop succumbing to fashion statements that are generated by a hopelessly sexist industry filled with men and women who hate women. (For evidence, consider how models are encouraged to become anorexic to the point of death, how ridiculous most women look in trendy fashions--and how men's wardrobes hardly ever change except to become more comfortable.)

Best yet: try treating all of the other women in your life--you daughters, mothers, sisters, coworkers--as worthwhile human beings, as important members of your community and world.

Armchair Mom,

I don't tink you can rely on the gender of teachers to predict their attitude toward girls and math. My 5 year old dd is a math kid-- she likes to play with numbers in her head, and is figuring out arithmatic pretty much on her own. Anyhow, she went to a well-regarded Montessori school last year, and although kids are supposed to be introduced to any task they show interest in, the female teachers could only seem to find time to show her the household and creative tasks. They're not allowed to do any task they haven't been introduced to. She eventually did manage to learn some of the math tasks by getting the boys in her class to show her.

For the most part, I assume that people who go into teaching are people who liked school, and are likely to pretty much maintain the status quo. I do have tremendous respect for those who take on this very difficult job and do it well.

part of it is media image, another key part is realities of life women have faced. at one point males were trained to survive. yet media images have made too many males think they are naturally destined for certain roles. meanwhile, females have been hit with some gross realities, along with certain movements, and are seeking to control their destinies more so now. As a father of girls, I support it all the way. my girls are being raised to be the best they can be without regard to race or sex.

Best yet: try treating all of the other women in your life--you daughters, mothers, sisters, coworkers--as worthwhile human beings, as important members of your community and world.

How about treating everyone like this, men included?

I grew up confused. I was a girl but wanted a "boy's" job.

My girlhood was in the 50's when Moms mostly stayed home. My Mom, and all the other moms I can think of really, clearly were not all that happy about it - they'd been single, independent, and out working for the WWII period.

I became a young women just as the women's movement realy engaged. I tried to adjust my thinking but struggled. I wanted marriage and kids. I was the first in my household to go to high school, and then to college. I had no role models. I started reading Ms MAgazine with the first issue and devoured it each month.

But, by then I was already married (at age 20!), had left college after my junior year to move cross-country with my grad-student husband, and taken a job to make some money. At least I had the sense not to start a family yet, and I quit my job to spend a year finishing up college.

Then there was another cross-country(actually to Canada) move, another job (this time in my field), a baby, another big move back to the States, a house, another baby, then another big move. There was really no time to carve out a career or go to grad school. Daycare back then was decidely inferior.

I went back to college yet again when the boys started school, despite the fact that one child had just been found to have a chronic disorder. I was bored at home and wanted to update my old knowledge and prepare for grad school. Just when I was ready to change over to grad courses, we moved yet again. After re-settling our kids into new schools , etc for a year, I looked at grad schools.

But the sanme child became ill with a second chronic condition - exhausting but not life-threatening thankfully. I had to pick up that child at school often. I thought about night school but hate night classes.

We had stretched to buty a house in our new area and money was getting tight. Plus college costs were looming in the near distance. So, I took an "easy" (for me, anyway) job . It was full-time and did not pay well. I stayed 12 years anyway, climbing the ladder, such as it was. It helped us save for college and got me out of the house and was actually fun for much of the time. I considered night classes again, but then spent some time grieving my lost dreams and finally gave them up.

And then I was over 50, and realized it I wanted to stay home, travel, take fun art and dance classes, etc. I was by then exhausted from the marathon of moving/child-raising/ working.

Now, after a few years of that, I am ready to think about other things. I just don't know what.

I remain somewhat confused. I hope the younger women & men have a clearer picture because my generation sure didn't. You know how thay always say that no one on their death-bed ever says: "I wish I'd spent more time at the office"? Well, That may not be true in my case. haha

I just wish we could get away from quoting the shop-worn statistic about how women only make some percent of what men do while not controlling for age, experience, or education levels. Once those controls are in place, the level is virtually identical but, since that doesn't serve anyone's agenda, those facts are ignored.

I'm watching how science and math are presented to both of my daughters. I'm not seeing a problem with male/female at all, but more of the classic problem of making the gifted kids repeat the same material over and over (talk about letting boredom kill the love of learning) until the slower kids finally get it. Fortunately, their private school is more willing to group kids by ability so both of them are progressing to the fullest of their abilities.

I too was told I could do anything. No one at my school - male female younger older - ever suggested that the girls (who were the majority) in AP Calculus or in Physics should take Home Ec instead. Thank God! My mother taught girls and boys to cook and clean and canoe and camp and my dad taught us to do yard work and fish. No difference. My brother is a totally well-adjusted man married to a lovely woman who appreciates this upbringing!

*Extra long rant alert*

The idea that it is white men who are really at the receiving end of discrimination today is one of the chief myths of the backlash against feminism and the civil rights movement. Look at who is *actually* in power-- in Washington, DC, in Hollywood, in Silicon Valley and everywhere in between. The number of female Senators, cabinet officials, Supreme Court justices, CEOs or for that matter t.v. show writers and producers is still miniscule. Despite the fact that more women than ever are graduating from law school, the number of female Supreme Court clerks is at an all time low. The day that only 7% of Fortune 500 CEO positions are held by men, or the day there are only 14 men in the Senate, I'd be more inclined to believe the male discrimination story-- until then, forgive me if I'm a little incredulous.

Yeah, so King of Queens and Everybody Loves Raymond make the men look like buffoons-- but even as buffoons, they still have attractive, thin, capable wives who put up with their idiotic behavior because they're just so darn cute-- where are all the shows were some goofy fat woman has a hot husband? Moreoever, what about all the other shows on television-- even when populated with strong women (who are always written as 'feisty' but ultiamtely overly-emotional)? These shows portray men in positions of power and the strong women usually spend 50% of the show swooning over them (Lost and Grey's Anatomy just to name two). Everyone seems to notice that men are occasionally portrayed as silly-- but you don't notice that the television status quo (largely written by white male writers) is dominated by largely traditional gender dynamics. It's like wallpaper-- we're so used to it, it doesn't seem like anything out of the ordinary.

Moreover, there is more pressure on women than ever before to excel at all things-- a recent survey at Duke said girls there feel incredible pressure to be both "smart and hot" and described an atmosphere where cute guys can take their pick of girls for random 'hookups' and the girls willingly participate because god-forbid they should be seen as 'not sexy'. Has everyone forgotten the Forbes article published **last month** titled "Don't Marry A Career Woman" that argued, among other things, that your house will be dirtier if you do? Hello!? Forbes, in this day and age, is advising guys not to marry career women and you say it's tough to be a man!?!?

I graduated college less than ten years ago-- I went to a school where the ratio of men to women was 4 to 1 (an engineering school in the south) and believe me, the atmosphere was anything but progressive: guys didn't want girls on their project teams in class, but if you refused a date you were automatically branded a "b****" and accused of being frigid or snotty. This was not 1950 people-- it was the 1990's! In my rural southern high school, again in the 1990's, the most popular girls were always the ones who were nice, pretty and kept their opinions to themselves-- being outspoken or especially smart was not a way to be prom queen. In high school, I must have had a hundred guys say to me "You're too smart for your own good." What is that supposed to mean? And why did I never hear that phrase directed toward a guy?

It's funny that as soon as women started making any progress whatsoever in this country, people run around screaming that men are being discriminated against-- remember the famous "Year of the Woman" in politics, when we had *six* female senators-- that's six out of one hundred and it's the "Year of the Woman"? Hello? It wasn't long after that that one began to hear the 'woe is me' tale that the worst thing you can be in this country is a white male and now that there are, OMG, 14 female senators, well men are told they just better give up all hope that they can get a fair shake in this fem-dominated country. Yeah right-- women and minorities are still the ones disproportionately affected by poverty and discrimination in pretty much every category that can be measured.

I get that men, in general, are threatened, by the idea that women should have 50% of the power and resources in this country-- since white men still have most of it, that means if women take 50% of Senate seats and Fortune 500 CEO jobs, 40% or more of the white men currently in contention for those positions wouldn't get them. Not everything is a zero sum game, but some things are-- and as soon as anything is taken away from a white guy, this 'poor white men' talk starts up. Fortunately, college admissions are not necessarily a zero sum game-- glass sizes are growing as population grows and more people (of all genders and races) have a college education available to them than ever before. For the first time women are a little over 50% of undergrads-- my guess is it won't go much beyond that and will equilibriate at roughly 50%-50%. This is a *good* thing-- we should be happy our society is educating its daughters as well as its sons after generations of not doing so. But somehow I sense that no one would be worried or upset if women were the ones who made up less than 50% of the undergrad population. It would just be par for the course.

Sign me,
A happily married to a strong man-domestic goddess-homebody-former engineer-master's degree holding-career woman who believes feminism is still relevant (and will be for a long time to come)!

The dopey, schlubby men on TV are all in comedies and commercials intended to be funny. The idea is, it's funny because it portrays the world as it ISN'T.

On the "serious" shows, though, the men are handsome and professional and ethical. Or handsome and slick and dangerous. Or handsome and sensitive and hard-working. There are very few dumb klutzy men on the TV dramas, which are the shows intended to show the world as it really is. "Ripped from the headlines" and all that.

This is not to say that dramas portray all women as victims, patients and secretaries. There are plenty of positive roles for women in TV dramas. And there seem to be more roles played by real-looking women, instead of super-model stunners, which I like. I like to see the short, plump doctor on Grey's Anatomy-- one of the best surgeons there, and no shrinking violet.

I grew up confused. I was a girl but wanted a "boy's" job.

My girlhood was in the 50's when Moms mostly stayed home. My Mom, and all the other moms I can think of really, clearly were not all that happy about it - they'd been single, independent, and out working for the WWII period.

I became a young women just as the women's movement really engaged. I tried to adjust my thinking but struggled. I wanted marriage and kids. I was the first in my household to go to high school, and then to college. I had no role models. I started reading Ms Magazine with the first issue and devoured it each month.

But, by then I was already married (at age 20!), had left college after my junior year to move cross-country with my grad-student husband, and taken a job to make some money. At least I had the sense not to start a family yet, and I quit my job to spend a year finishing up college.

Then there was another cross-country(actually to Canada) move, another job (this time in my field), a baby, another big move back to the States, a house, another baby, then another big move. There was really no time to carve out a career or go to grad school. Daycare back then was decidely inferior.

I went back to college yet again when the boys started school, despite the fact that one child had just been found to have a chronic disorder. I was bored at home and wanted to update my old knowledge and prepare for grad school. Just when I was ready to change over to grad courses, we moved yet again. After re-settling our kids into new schools , etc for a year, I looked at grad schools.

But the same child became ill with a second chronic condition - exhausting but not life-threatening thankfully. I had to pick up that child at school often. I thought about night school but hate night classes.

We had stretched to buy a house in our new area and money was getting tight. Plus college costs were looming in the near distance. So, I took an "easy" (for me, anyway) job . It was full-time and did not pay well. I stayed 12 years anyway, climbing the ladder, such as it was. It helped us save for college and got me out of the house and was actually fun for much of the time. I had a title so could consider this job my "career". I also considered night classes again, but then spent some time grieving my lost dreams and finally gave them up.

And then I was over 50, and realized it I wanted to stay home, travel, take fun art and dance classes, etc. I was by then exhausted from the marathon of moving/child-raising/ working.

Now, after a few years of that, I am ready to think about other things. I just don't know what.

I remain somewhat confused. I hope the younger women & men have a clearer picture because my generation sure didn't. You know how thay always say that no one on their death-bed ever says: "I wish I'd spent more time at the office"? Well, That may not be true in my case. haha

to barb; I graduated from HS in 1985 and I agree with the following:

"I felt was a girl had to be everything. Not just pretty or polite, but pretty, polite, going to a high-powered university with an impressive major and a fantastic summer internship/career waiting(usually doctor/lawyer/business)."

However, I think the "pretty" part is self imposed/peer pressure most of the time. My parents never wanted me to do get all involved in hair/makeup/clothes crap but I did because of everyone else. I finally learned it was nonsense when my mother told me she wasn't buying me the (designer)clothes and make-up, so I got a job and had to pay for all the crap myself. After awhile I decided it wasn't worth it either. The peer pressure element is so strong in young girls - it gets very nasty. If you don't have the strong parents to back you up it can make you a very shallow person.

Sorry-- "the number of female Supreme Court clerks is at an all time low." isn't exactly correct since for most of the Supreme Court's history, the number was zero-- the number of female clerks did decline this year, however, and it was pointed out that some justices consistently hire no or few women.

(orry about the above double post - it was taking so long to upload, I decided to fix a few typos before continuing - but it obviously had been sent already. Read the SECOND one. haha)

I am a 24 year old female engineer and feel the following:
I feel the need to be smarter than peers to be taken seriously. I have to be very careful with my dress because it is easy to be considered a sex object in the oil industry. And maybe this is just how I feel, but I feel the need to downplay success to male peers lest they feel like less of men. This may be my fault, but something put this feeling in me.

JKR - truly, can I be your friend?

Excellent long rant. I agree 1000%.

"While none of these are to be considered role models for developing male minds, I wonder if there is some form of impact on them anyway."

Sure it has an impact... TV helps shape things that way. Ever watch NFL commercials? The moronic mentality of the NFL makes people believe they have to turn into retarded, fat drunks with a single minded obsession that supercedes family, friends, and religion come game time. Carries into college football, into the student body... people love living down to the expectations TV sets for them.

DZ... even if the commercials were being created by men, that doesn't really matter. The comment was that there was a backlash if "stupid women" were shown, it wasn't a question as to whether theres a double standard based on the gender of the creator.

I was born in the 60s, when sexism was pretty overt. My 1971 kindergarten class read "Boys Are, Girls Are" ("Boys are doctors, Girls are nurses." My favorite: "Boys fix things, Girls need things fixed"). By far the best defense I had against those messages was my mother, who had grown up being told she could be a teacher or a nurse or a secretary, and who was damned if she was going to see her only child limited like that. She got that book taken off the syllabus, and got me "Free to Be, You and Me" at home.

I think it's harder to teach your kids to see and respond to sexist messages nowadays, though. When I was a kid, sexism was overt (along the "little woman" lines) -- yes, it was offensive, but with everything out in the open, it was pretty easy to fight. Now things are a lot more sophisticated; you rarely hear someone say "a woman's place is in the home" anymore; they will say something like "I believe a child needs a parent at home," when what they really mean is "and that parent must be mom." NOT saying that that's what all SAHM's and their advocates believe -- point is that there are people out there with very sexist viewpoints who have learned to cloak their arguments in socially-acceptable ways, so if you try to argue with them, it sounds like you hate SAHMs (and so you are unreasonable, not them). Or another example: I recall some studies from a few years ago that found that teachers call on boys more than girls -- but when asked about it, the teachers insisted they called on both genders equally. So they certainly didn't intend to treat the boys and girls differently, but that was still the result. So nowadays, it's not just a question of teaching your kid to stand up to the overt messages -- now you have to teach them how to see more subtle things and critically deconstruct them.

But one thing hasn't changed: I believe that the best defense is still being a strong role model yourself. My daughter watches and remembers EVERY single thing I do and word I say -- if I preach equality but then expect her to do the dishes and her brother to cut the lawn, which do you think she'll pay attention to? Through my mother's strength, I saw first-hand that a woman could succeed in whatever she wanted to do, no matter what anyone else says; my fondest hope is that both my daughter and my son learn that as well (just as their dad is trying to model all of the good things a man can do and be).

One more thing - really, just one - When I was in 8th grade (1962), I was not allowed to enter the Chicago, city-wide math contest because I was a girl. My sympathetic teacher (a nun) allowed and encouraged me to do all the prep work for it, along with the boys, anyway. Then, in high school, I could not enter the city science fair - same reason!

To mcewen:

I beg to disagree. The sexpot thing works for maybe 10-15 years, but even then, if a woman is no more the sum of T&A, there's always younger, prettier T&A around the corner.

As for divorce: most women have their standard of living lowered following a divorce. I kept my house because it was MY house. I made every mortgage payment and it was in my name. As for child support, I have yet to see a dime and never will because my ex-husband left the country.

And then the most sobering statistic ties into your comment about restraining orders: the most dangerous place for an AMERICAN woman is her own home. Take a look at the domestic violence stats some time. Between 30 and 40 percent of women who are murdered were killed by an intimate partner (the rate varies year-to-year, but stays consistently in this range). Again, that's in the good old USA, not Taliban-controlled Afghanistan.

Tell me again, who has the power?

Are we not individuals? Every child is different.

I had a low GPA in HS but test very well. In fact I tell this story as a badge of honor. I was bored in grade school. And I never did homework, I think this was the result of two factors, one my parents didn't enforce homework (there were other issues), and two, probably the biggest factor, school was boring. Why should I do homework when I can pull a B+ or A- on the test without doing the homework. Why should I do homework when I get the concept the first or second time it is explained? My sixth grade teacher gave me a D+ in Math because I didn't do my homework. Did I deserve it? Yes, according to her grading system. That is not the problem, the real problem was when she accused me of cheating when I got one of the top three scores for the accelerated Math placement test to enter Jr. High. How can you cheat on a standardized test when you get one of the top three scores out of the 6-8 grade schools going to my Jr. High? I don't know either.

My HS GPA hovered right around a 3.2, my college GPA about the same, again homework bored me. My Master's GPA is at a 3.7 right now and I think it will remain there or a bit higher until completion as I've matured concerning the task of homework.

My three daughters will not have the same problems I did. My first is a math whiz, always counting money, learning math above her grade level, but she is a bit behind the reading curve. I don't stress about it, she'll come along fine with fun dramatic reading with daddy. My second daughter I think will be more of a challenge. She is like me, though just starting Kindergarten, she picked up a book the other day and is reading at about a beginning 1st grade level and she constantly seeks out extra homework because she finishes her work so quickly. (My oldest is in second grade)

I am also the second child and am wondering if having an older sibling allowed me better preparation and support for learning. I remember playing school with her all the time when younger.

My wife is a SAHM, and is the one who enforces homework, which is great for the grade school level. But the lovely wife has dyslexia and got very frustrated in college and as a kinestetic learner did much better in cosmetology school. She is very good artsy, fashion oriented, but not a Math or English whiz.

I'll be the go to guy when it comes to Algebra, Trig, Geometry, Calculus, Statistics, etc. So hopefully by the time my kids hit Jr. High I'm out of this rat race of D.C. and able to spend the time necessary to ensure my daughters' success.

So low GPAs aren't always a great indication of college success. I graduated and I'm a bored underachiever, that tests really really well. I also have great recall of previous material in spite of not doing as much homework.

Hopefully this isn't seen as a brag but a more personal look at GPAs, another way of looking at them, and the potential for success.

My girls are welcome to help replace the battery in my car, change the oil, change a tire, help cook dinner, help with whatever task, I don't preclude them from helping mow the lawn, though they don't do it themselves yet.

My girls can be whatever they want, as long as they still love their daddy.

"For the first time women are a little over 50% of undergrads-- my guess is it won't go much beyond that and will equilibriate at roughly 50%-50%."

Why do you think it will swing back and reach equilibrium at 50/50? Check out the NY Times story at:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/29/business/yourmoney/29women.html?em&ex=1162357200&en=a910b6f60ffb3ed2&ei=5087%0A

A couple of interesting quotes:

"At American colleges and universities, women represent 57 percent of undergraduate classes and 58 percent of graduate classes, according to the American Council on Education. (They also hold a slight majority in the overall population.)"

"We are perhaps on the first step to a matriarchal society; women will earn more money than men if current trends continue by 2028," said Michael J. Silverstein of the Boston Consulting Group. "The trend has been escalating in the last 10 years as there has been a gradual, slow erosion of the power balance in the family, a psychic rebalancing."

Two attitudes I struggle to understand:

-- There can't be a "boy crisis" because it's still very hard for girls. Ignore boys' problems and focus on girls.

-- Feminism is a viscious mistake - don't you know there's a boy crisis out there? Ignore girls' problems and focus on boys.

I've got a daughter. I've got a son. I'm a man. I'm married to a woman. I see all sides of this, and yes, girls are trapped in an impossible-to-accomodate and ever more restrictive "act like a woman box" and boys are trapped in an impossible-to-accomodate and ever more restrictive "act like a man box" that hurts both socially, in school, in the workplace, and keeps a lot of us from finding self-fulfillment. Advocating for the needs of one doesn't hurt the other. I'm a feminist and a masculinist because I want a fair playing field, lots of support and freedom for both my daughter and my son, my wife and myself. I don't see how pointing out the restrictive media presentations of men or of women, the struggles in school of boys or of girls, the work-life balance problems of either gender, really shortchanges the other.

My mother was a bright and fiercely independent woman who convinced my two sisters and I that we could do anything. Although we grew up in the 1970's when a fair number of girls still got married straight out of high school, it was simply a given that we would attend college and make our way in the male-dominated working world. My oldest sister is a journalist, the middle is a metallurgical engineer and I am a lawyer who spent six years in the military.

In my twenty years of law practice I've run across discrimination only once. While working as a new associate at a personal injury law firm the partner who supervised me sat in on a deposition. At the end he told me that while I'd done a fine technical job my attitude was too nice -- I needed to be a bigger "witch" (well -- substitute a B for the W.) Thankfully a better job opportunity presented itself soon after and I left that firm.

No man in my life, however, has ever made me feel anywhere near as worthless and insignificant as those women who feel that form (appearance, fashion) is more important than substance (intelligence, kindness, compassion.) The biggest source of negativity in my life is my M-I-L, who has spent the last 20 years telling me I am too fat, don't dress fashionably enough, don't dress my kids fashionably enough, that my hair and makeup are a disaster and my abilities as a cook and housekeeper don't even begin to measure up to her standards. She is not alone in this world. I've encountered way too many women along the way who elevate things (clothing, houses, cars) above people and judge everyone on how nice their things are rather than on what kind of person they are. Truthfully at most gatherings I prefer to hang out with the men -- they are more interesting and less judgmental.

JKR, I also went to an engineering school in the south-- probably the same one, since there aren't many! I found the same experience as you were describing. Personally, I did find it affected my academic self-confidence. For many reasons, I transferred to another Southern school with a 60-40 female-male ratio. The women were actually much stronger academically than the men (the admissions director once told me it would be 75-80% female if they didn't consider gender). The atmosphere was so much more cooperative and friendly, and I never felt the gender discrimination I did in the other school. It made a world of difference.

While looking at colleges I had discounted all-female universities. But now I think they have some merit.

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1161939921685

About those 50% or more gender rates in college - not sure it will matter in the long run to boost female income, etc. The above-referenced article from the American Lawyer notes that even though women have constituted more than 50% of all law school graduating classes for more than 15 years, they still only constitute 16% of equity partners. Even at the "youngest" levels of partnership, women only constitute 24% of all partners. This is pretty good data since most (not all) partnership decisions are made between 7-10 years after one graduates from law school. So if women have been more than 50% of graduates for more than 15 years, we should at least see a much higher percentage than a quarter in recent years.

To MP:

Wow, I thought my MIL was bad. She spent over 20 years BORING me to death.

First, right on JKR!
Secondly, I have thought about this a lot in the last couple years. I was also raised in a completely non-sexist home - I loved school and did well blah blah blah. But now I am the parent of a son - no daughters for me - and I find myself questioning why he is doing so poorly in school and wondering if indeed there HAS been a backlash against boys and accomodating the different ways they *might* learn. I worry that he ISN'T exposed to enough males in the elementary school environment and have agonized over whether he would be doing better with a male teacher - not necessarily because males are more understanding and accomodating of boys, but because maybe boys are more inspired by male teachers ... and maybe especially boys of single mothers, and there are a lot of us. I have no research here, just my ruminations.

"While looking at colleges I had discounted all-female universities. But now I think they have some merit."

I realized after I posted this that some folks may think that I'm implying all-female colleges don't have merit. I know there are many excellent female universities, and now I see the appeal to them over other comparable universities.

SCT: Amen.

"I recall some studies from a few years ago that found that teachers call on boys more than girls -- but when asked about it, the teachers insisted they called on both genders equally."

Laura hit the nail on the head-- no one likes to think that they are sexist (or racist) because one of the things the feminist/civil rights movements have been successful at is demonizing the blatantly offensive forms of that behavior. So people couch it in other terms and convince themselves they're not prejudiced. Just this morning on NPR, David Bositis, a Senior Political Analyst with the Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies, was talking about the "poll lie"... pre-election and exit polls always show a black candidate further ahead than he is because people like to publicly claim that they voted for a black candidate because they don't want to be seen as racist. He mentioned a the Doug Wilder election in Virginia where exit polls showed his win margin to be 10% and the actual margin was .5% (yes, that's half a percent). That's the downside of political correctness-- people are less willing to put the truth about how they feel out there on the table.

Hey, unsigned 10:38 poster:

While women make up the (slight) majority of undergrad and graduate students, one does have to ask WHY they aren't the majority of college professors, administrators, government leaders, etc. Sure, they're earning the degrees, but why aren't they able to crack the higher echelons of power?

Also, I'd like to see data on what fields the majority of women college and graduate students are in. My guess is that they are the fields that are traditionally female or welcoming of women, like education, psychology, English or social work. WHile these are all great fields to be in, they really aren't the fastest routes to being in power.

As recently as 2002, half of the six major Hollywood studio were headed by women: Sherry Lansing (Paramount), Amy Pascal (Columbia Pictures), and Stacey Snider (Universal). Half of film school graduates are women, but if someone isn't hiring them as directors, maybe it's time to ask these three what they've done to remedy the situation.

The television networks are similarly constituted: as recently as 2002, Nancy Tellem (President of CBS Entertainment), Gail Berman (President, FOX Entertainment), and Dawn Ostroff (President, UPN Entertainment; now CW) shaped the television landscape. Women have served in such capacities at ABC and NBC as well.

My brother--a black man, the last time I checked--is a proud graduate of one the finest film schools in the nation with a concentration in animation. While he was an undergrad at Big Ivy League U., he took a film course with a Very Well-Known Black Film Director. His instructor cautioned him to steer clear of making "black-themed" film lest he be typecast (like Very Well-Known Black Film Director has been).

My brother took this advice to heart. For his second animated feature, his film is as white as the driven snow: not a black person in sight. The protagonist is an early-adolescent, precocuous girl who, living as a mere mortal in a world of witches and warlocks with magical powers, uses her scientific and mathematical abilities to level the playing field. The witches have flying brooms; the protagonist invents a flying vacuum cleaner.

Feminist bliss. Commercially viable. He should be making a mint from this thing.

The reality: he's been shopping the film for three years. No takers.

Oh, he's had plenty of interviews. But, each and every time, the interviewers want to speak more with the white female assistant my brother brings with him. They refuse to believe a black man could possibly devise a female-empowering character and plotline. They want to believe his assistant in the braintrust behind the film. Some have even said so.

He's lost count of the number of time these liberal Hollywood executives have told him they won't take the project if he's on it. They prefer his white female assistant--the person he pays.

The women executives, my brother tells me, are worse than the men.

Not once has he met with a black executive. He laughed when I asked about it.

Not that my chosen profession is any better: there isn't a single black male Supreme Court clerk this year. Not one. Guess the New York Times missed that one.

To the anonymous posters who pointed out the obvious - that I could just refuse to get someone's coffee or lunch. Thanks for fixating on the coffee rather than larger gender stereo-type. Very helpful - why didn't I think of that?! For the record and in my personal experience, what one will tolerate at the age of 32 is far different from what one might tolerate at 22.

two stories...

1) In 1990 I was beginning a PhD program at an Ivy League school. When I was accepted, I was given a fellowship. About 20% of the class had these fellowships and they were based on merit. At dinner with the director of the graduate program the night before classes started, classmates who knew I had gotten married over the weekend asked me about it. Overhearing this, the director of the graduate program said, "If I knew you were getting married, I wouldn't have given you that fellowship."

Update: I did get a PhD, various others with and without fellowships did not. Others have since taken over as director of graduate program.

2) In 2002, one child had dental work and I had to bring her sister along. Sister was not permitted in the small treatment room but waited in the main work area where other kids were getting cleanings & check-ups. There's a space for kids to wait there, with bean bags chairs & books. When the procedure was done, one of the staff brought her over and praised her. "She just sat quietly. She watched us working; she was really interested in what we were doing." Dentist responds, "Maybe she'll be a dental hygienist!"

Update: We switched dentists but stayed within the practice.

Mr Estrogen central:

I was the same way in school - I never did any work and skated by. My grades were constantly lowered due to missed projects, homework, etc. My parents constantly hassled me, told me I was too smart to be goofing off. I did get into a good college only because of good SAT scores and a recommendation from my government teacher that encouraged debate and participation and captured my attention (got an A in her class). However, my male HS guidance counselor told me not to bother with college - he wanted me to go to a good "secretarial school." My mother told me he was an idiot and that I was going to college.

Regardless, I skated through college as well but once I hit the real world and was finally out of the classroom I thrived. I have always been successful in my various jobs. I am the only girl out of 3 kids and my parents just wanted all of us to be independent and successful.

I do remember my mom telling me in college when I brought home my boyfriend - who happened to be smart, funny, good looking and from a very wealthy family - that it didn't hurt to marry well. It didn't work out between us - he wanted me to move to NJ after we got married (after I graduated)and be a stay home mom. I completely balked at that. Very strange - I would love to be a stay home mom full time now but him telling me that was "how it was going to be" just did not sit well with me.

The decision whether or not to have kids, and if you do, how to raise them seems like the women's issue of my generation. Which is why I find this blog compelling even though I'm not yet a parent. The women-in-the-workplace-issue (women gaining access to traditionally male professions, coping with sexism, the glass ceiling, being Superwoman) was the primary issue of my mom's generation - although women continue to face many of these challenges today.

I feel like my generation's obssessional attention to parenting exists partly as a backlash (or reaction to) our mother's struggle to enter and achieve in the workplace. The workplace issues still exist. But now they're compounded with a bunch of conflicting thoughts and feelings about what it means to be a woman.

JKR -- you said it. People treat gender equality like it's some zero-sum game. Like if women are doing better, men must be doing worse. I don't think feminists want to screw men over...just for them to move over a bit to make room for talented females.

And to DC Temp...the Guerilla Girls are definitely also fighting for your bro by also acknowleging the absence of artists of color in big-money Hollywood. The figures for cinematographers and directors of color are as depressing as the stats for women. Check out their anatomically correct oscar campaign here: http://www.guerrillagirls.com/posters/oscarfinal.shtml

"if you don't like what your husband or any other man says to you, get a restraining order against him, the courts hand them out to women."

Can I get a court order forcing my husband to do his share of the housework? It is a real problem in our relationship. He takes out the trash, but I do just about everything else. I don't want to be a nag-- I'd like it if he would just pitch in without my having to ask. I can't help but think that if he really loved me he would do this stuff without the nagging. HAs anyone divorced over housework.. Seems so minor, but it is a real problem for me to live in a messy, disorganized home.

JKR, I agree. Very nicely stated.

I think that the most important thing we can do to counteract this negative imagery of women is to point it out to our children. The best way to solve the problem is to recognize it.

When I notice something sexist, I point it out to whomever will listen (usually my husband or mom). If you do that with your children, they will see the problem and learn to look for it in the future. Then they will be less likely to fall victim to the message. For me, it's like knowing the enemy.

A few months ago, I read an essay in one of the news magazines by a doctor who is a black woman. She wrote that even other blacks who come in as patients assume she's a nurse. A powerful illustration about the insidiousness of stereotypes. We often don't know that they influence our thinking, especially when we make a conscious effort to avoid generalizing.

Also, when I was in high school 25 years ago, it was considered "faggy" for boys to do well. I think it had something to do with anti-intellectualism, the idea that men were better suited to "good, honest hard work." Our culture still stereotypes intellectuals as effete snobs.

"Truthfully at most gatherings I prefer to hang out with the men -- they are more interesting and less judgmental."

I am the same way. My husband and I laugh all the time that I end up with the men at parties - I like to drink beer, smoke an occasional cigar and talk politics.

My most dreaded events: bridal and baby showers.

Small correction - the first sentence should read "it was considered 'faggy' for boys to do well in school or to be interested in books."

My dad was a high school administrator in Arizona and as late as the late 80's/early 90's he had attending meetings where the state said that girls should be discouraged from taking anything beyond Algebra II from a math standpoint. He didn't buy that for various reasons and would check and see how many actually were in AP Calc as a measure of how girls did in Math at the school (go Dad!). Regardless, the fact that this attitude was so entrenched in public education, at least in AZ, is pretty scarry.

Agreed, sct; I just get very irked by those who insist that a legacy of hundreds (millenia?) of sexism has simply evaporated in the last 30 years and no one is or has ever been a sexist and really there is no problem at all, everything is just peachy. It drives me to, well, rant. The thing is, truly lasting social change takes a long, long time-- I kind view history as an upward moving spiral...we're progressing, but we also go in a lot of circles and pass the same points again and again from a slightly different angle.

Agreed that what we truly want is a society that values its boys and girls, men and women as equal, responsible and capable members of society. I am pregnant with a boy and wonder what his experience will be (TakomaMom-- wonder if I'll be in your shoes in 5-6 years?). As society changes, however slowly, boys and men too have changing roles to cope with and any kind of change brings about its own particular set of challenges. I would never say men and boys can't or don't have problems. However, just as crime has been declining for 30 years yet people feel less safe than ever (and news stories highlight why we should all be very, very afraid), I do think that the media highlights "the boy crisis" in more exaggerated terms than it really exists and without the context of, well, times and gender roles are slowly changing and things are in flux for everyone-- and this does lead people to think "feminism has gone too far" and that we all need to slam the brakes (when things are really progressing pretty slowly).

Thanks "the original just a thought", esp. for the stat that shows equal pay is not the automatic result of equal graduation rates.

Hey, Neighbor, glad you found a more friendly environment! I eventually found one in grad school, and wow, did it open my eyes!

Unfortunately, the pendulum hasn't really "swung". Even though girls seem to have the upper hand in elementary and high school, women are still discriminated against based on sterotypes. Look at what people say about women--those that work and value their careers are disparaged as "bad mothers". I personally experienced this fecently when I was told that I wasn't included in an important working group because "I wasn't experienced enough" despite being way more qualified than the males that were included. Euphanisms are used to deny women access to leadership roles--not enough experience, not enough leadership skills, etc. Mostly bullsh*t. I've been told time and again by more senior women and other observers that I've hit the glass ceiling. How come women have to be many times better than me to ascend in their fields? Look at how many successful female entrepeneurs there are but you can't count on one hand the number of women CEOs? When you're young and smart and successful, you are praised. If you are too successful, the abuse and discrimination becomes more rampant. Men like to protect their clubs.

I will say I don't care for how men and women are portrayed in the media. Women are still portrayed as being homebodies cleaning windows and baking with the children. And men as fat dunces drinking beer and oogling women. Pathetic cartoons, eh?

But I believe that girls and women are still getting the short end of the stick and I would welcome another wave of feminist revolution. Screw the naysayers who say stupid things like feminists are men haters (not true!) or that feminism is the cause of all the ills in our society. We need to continue to nurture our girls, make caring for home and families both a boy and girl issue, and promote women who are equally qualified (as opposed to 3 x more qualified and still get passed over).

Anonymous at 9:37 a.m., the "I don't drink coffee" reply was right on the tip of my tongue!

When I was a TA in journalism grad school, my female professor had me fetch coffee. I didn't give the above reply, but I sent out silent but "loud" resentment vibes, and I started refusing to wash out her coffee cup. She stopped asking me. I also had this problem during a newspaper internship with a male editor. He, unlike the professor, was a nice person who actually wanted to hire me, just had some outmoded views. I should have taken that job, too. Instead, I chose the prestigious wire service, with sexist, racist, boring folks running the joint. I was an affirmative action hire, I wasn't good enough, blah, blah, blah. I eventually found a career that appealed more to me, quit, went back to school and made my switch.

Hey JKR,
I enjoyed your post too. I agree 1000% as well. Very well said.

great stories, love reading them. our childhoods affect us forever. makes me wonder (even more) how my kids are being shaped on a daily basis. what will our children write about in 20 years?

There is a great test called Implicit Association Test by scientists at Harvard. https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/demo/ Basically, you look at photos and choose between different sets of words. Very interesting.

[I would welcome another wave of feminist revolution. Screw the naysayers]

Working Mother, I might support you on principal if it wasn't for your attitude.

JKR,
Congratulations on the pregnancy! He's a lucky boy to have a mom so conscious of the signals society will pass him.
And yes, you're absolutely right that thousands of years of priviledge haven't been erased by 30 years of increasing awareness of that priviledge. I think we're in a state now where a lot of the overt sexism is gone and we're left with a sort of institutional sexism and sexism we aren't aware of. This is insidious because it limits both boys and girls, pushing them into particular identities. I think that the nascent discussion of the "boy crisis" is just the very beginnings of a cultural awareness that we offer boys a limited role in the same way we do to girls, and that yes, it's the priviledged "powerful" role, but that doesn't change that it's still a limit on who they should be and it's present from the moment of birth. I think a lot of the "boy crisis" talk is misguided, but I'm extremely happy to see that talk happening at last, because it is at least the first sign of any societal discussion of "what messages do we send to our young boys?" much like the early days of feminism when we first began asking that question about girls. I hope it's the beginning of the next stage of the movement toward fairness and elimination of strict gender roles in our culture, but if I'm right about that, then it's many years from really being recognized as that.

neo-feminism is dangerous because it paints the woman as perpetually the victim. if you are inherently the victim, then you don't have to compromise and see the other side's perspective.

Oh goody, another feminazi womyn discussion. Men bad yadayada, women oppressed yadayada, society prejudiced yadayada. Wake me up when the leftist pity party is over. YAWN!

"Working Mother, I might support you on principal if it wasn't for your attitude."

You are joking, right? There is nothing wrong with my attitude. People who attack feminists do so because they want to keep women in the 50s--barefoot and pregnant. I've experienced this over and over again by men who are threatened by women who are as ambitous as they are. They say negative nasty untrue things about feminism and feminists because they feel threatend by women who want to achieve parity. I think you need a little enlightenment.

Patrick - you have to read all the posts - some are more man friendly than others!

I agree with everything that JKR says.

"While women make up the (slight) majority of undergrad and graduate students, one does have to ask WHY they aren't the majority of college professors, administrators, government leaders, etc. Sure, they're earning the degrees, but why aren't they able to crack the higher echelons of power?

Also, I'd like to see data on what fields the majority of women college and graduate students are in. My guess is that they are the fields that are traditionally female or welcoming of women, like education, psychology, English or social work. WHile these are all great fields to be in, they really aren't the fastest routes to being in power."

I do believe that women and men should be able to be anything they choose. But not everyone wants to be in a position of power. And not everyone wants to go to school for years beyond undergraduate. And not everyone wants to relocate to the places with the opportunities (e.g. DC). And not everyone wants to work insance hours. Etc, etc...

There seems to be an underlying thread here that you are somehow betraying women and/or feminism if you do not select careers that are not traditionally women's careers.

Why is it automatically sexist if a girl does not like math or science? Why can't she just dislike it? I personally loved math, but hated science. I love to read for pleasure but dislike Shakespeare, the classics, and poetry. People are multi-faceted. We should try not to push our sons and daughters in certain directions in the name of feminism and equality just as hard as we try not to push them into traditional stereotypical roles.

I graduated high school in 1974, took every math course possible in my high school, and received nothing but encouragement.

"And yes, you're absolutely right that thousands of years of priviledge haven't been erased by 30 years of increasing awareness of that priviledge."

I'm sorry I didn't know that men lived to be thousands of years old. Oh, I get it, white men now should suffer for what people did thousands or even hundrends of years ago.

I think pATRICK is Father of 4..........

At high school, my principal (a woman), advised me that women don't make good engineers because their brains are different to men's. What did I do? Went out, got my masters in chemical engineering and worked as a process engineer on an oil refinery. I always figured that she was just clueless. Gender, race are not of any interest to me. I believe in being true to myself, and am bringing up my daughter to do likewise.

"Oh goody, another feminazi womyn discussion. Men bad yadayada, women oppressed yadayada, society prejudiced yadayada. Wake me up when the leftist pity party is over. YAWN!"

It's amazing to me that there are a lot of men who are dismissive of the problems that women face in the workplace. They don't see that women are still routinely discriminated against in all aspecs of society. I am aware of it in my world and try to navigate around it without confrontation, but despite the fact that it is now "subtle" as opposed to overt (though my experience disputes that), it still is unfair and hurtful.

I worked in an environment where men in leadership (few to no women in leadership) would say that a certain women employee wasn't "serious" because she got pregnant and another should not be given an opportunity because "she'd rather be home with her daughter" (not true). These comments amongst others were said within the last few years at my former place of employment. Also, the boss simulated masturbation in front of 3 female employees, exposed his thing to other staff members and had made all types of sexual comments with the intent to humiliate the women in the workplace. He saved his most egregous behavior for the "uppity" women who were successful. I chose to leave rather than fight it--I sometimes wish I had fought.

These things still happen and the subtle form is just as insidious and hateful. I've worked in a place where the "boys" go out to lunch, network with important people and leave out the women. Men are promoted who are less skilled, but they are "one of the boys". I've even heard one person say that someone got an opportunity because they were tennis buddies!!! Dispicable.

So "Patrick and Fo4" are you part of the problem or do you want to continue to tell us we have "an attitude problem" and call us "feminazis"? I think we know the answer.

OOPS - change "insance hours" to insane hours.

"I don't think feminists want to screw men over...just for them to move over a bit to make room for talented females."

That may well be true. But speaking as a guy, many if not most of the more outspoken feminists (those that find it necessary to announce "I'm a feminist" as if what they're about to say could not otherwise be properly undestood) sure tend to give me the impression that they want to work men over good. Maybe I'm misreading them, maybe they're not communicating well, but there it is (and I DON'T think I'm the only guy that has been given this impression). For me, what seems to really create this impression are statements about how men discriminate against women, or oppress women, etc. I have not desire to put people down, and try to treat everyone I deal with fairly and courteously. I react very negatively to implications that I share in some sort of collective gender guilt, because I simply do not believe it to be true (and I know that when someone tries to push it on me, it is a personal attack).

"There seems to be an underlying thread here that you are somehow betraying women and/or feminism if you do not select careers that are not traditionally women's careers."

I don't think anyone has said anything like this here today. Feminism isn't about selecting only "male dominated" careers. It's about being what you want to be without the constraints of discrimination and stereotyping. If a women wants to be a nurse or teacher, more power to her. If she "stays at home", it's a choice I might not agree with but she is entitled to make it. Free country and all.

There is a lot of wrong assumptions about feminism and it's not about "victimhood", being a nazi or any such thing. As someone else said above, just because women advance doesn't take anything away from the men. Males are threatened and so some behave badly and we have seen a glimpse of this attitude in a couple of poster's responses.

"I've worked in a place where the "boys" go out to lunch, network with important people and leave out the women."

So schedule a weekly "take a guy to lunch" day. That's what guys do.

'"women shouldn't be taking jobs away from men when they're just going to quit and have babies, anyway."

Um, isn't that what you did? I mean, quit and have a baby? So didn't your class have a point, sort of?' - SAHM

Doesn't matter - she is entitled to whatever education she wants. She had what it took to get into the school - if she took some guy's spot, well, he didn't have what it took to get in so he shouldn't have been in just because she MIGHT quit to have a family.

MP - I DO think that women are their own worst enemy sometimes. I see women standing around all preening and catty at parties - it is very annoying and such a sad game - a clear sign of serious self-esteem issues - it is a no-win situation and I can't take very much of it.
I also have found that guys are a whole lot more fun and easy to hang out with - most of the time guys think I am making up how much I know about sports but I can follow any sports almost as well as any guy. . .I haveonly been married for four years but so I have very little problem with my mother-in-law - on my worst day of housekeeping I am better than she is -same goes for cooking - my problem is with my mother - I never was good enough in her eyes and she always played favorites with my brother (observed by outsiders as well). My serious self-esteem issues stem from years of her crowing over my brother and whata great athlete and student he was (he was both - and is now a doctor. I managed to complete two Masters degrees but still have no idea what I want to do with my life - I am always looking for her approval - even at 38 - and it drives me crazy. I know that I can't