First!

Dammit, I wanted to be first.

and the Chinese gave me some seriously ugly shoes.

Interesting post. I'm the first to admit I have absolutely terrible fashion sense, and it was mentioned to me at least once during a review when I was practicing. Not that I wore capris and a tube top to the office or anything; I was more often than not attired in black dress pants and a 3/4-length sleeved button down or sweater. Not much flair, and apparently a little dumpy.

I know that SAHMs with kids are generally easily identifiable because somewhere on their outfit, they'll have slime. I feel like my t-shirts are practically disposable, since after a while, the stains just stop coming out. Who knew I'd spend more on clothes when I'm not going to the office every day?

Finally, while I do think there may be larger-scale discrimination against those who are less attractive, I have a theory that we fat folks have it a little easier on a day-to-day basis. When I was practicing law, I can assure you that nobody was ever looking at my breasts or hemline when I was talking. Meanwhile, my thin, attractive co-workers were treated to a litany of suggestive comments, ranging from partners telling them they should wear skirts more often to making suggestive remarks about what they'd been doing the night before, and with whom. One woman told me a certain partner, who never treated me with anything less than professionalism and respect, commented on her outfit nearly every single day.

I meant SAHMs with young kids.

What exactly is "dressing like a stay at home mom" and what are you wearing when you don't? Are you wearing Armani to the playground. I just don't even get that statement. Another dig at the SAHMs, nice way to start the day.

I used to have a male boss who would criticize my clothes. Now, I admit that I am no fashion king but his red coat was plain ugly! I had a brown tie that some of my co-workers though was the ugliest tie in America. He wanted to take it from me, cut it up and mount it on a plaque!

Fredia did have a similar problem with a boss. She wanted all of her subordinated to dress "professionally" This meant wearing a dress every day. A bit hard to do on a part-time state government salary. Finally, they were allowed to wear medical uniforms, so Fredia is much happier!

So not my topic. I am praying that the "What Not to Wear" folks will find me soon.

Honestly, I'm mostly oblivious to that sort of stuff. I do remember early on in my career being really annoyed at the good-looking women who seemed to have a leg up; but then I realized that at least in my arena, all that gets you is a foot in the door, and you still have to produce once you get there.

Oh, and I've never liked skirts (pantyhose -- blech). When they started making really nice pantsuits for women about 10-15 years ago, I was in heaven. But we're all casual now -- it's generally jeans or khakis and a button-down shirt every day, maybe a blazer if I'm feeling enthused. Yeah, boring as dirt, eh? But with saving for college and retirement and paying off the kitchen remodel, it's just hard to justify spending money on something that seems as frivolous as nice clothes -- especially when the toddler is guaranteed to slobber on it the first time out.

Not a fan of the anon poster, but I'm gonna agree, what does a stay at home mom dress like?

When I stayed home full-time with my kids, I wore jeans or shorts, t-shirts or a polo and maybe a sweater or sweatshirt. Nothing that needed dry cleaning EVER, and most of it was from Target -- reasonably fashionable and seriously cheap (though not well made) so that I wouldn't miss it if it was permanently stained. At one point, I realized that my kids were better dressed than I was in their BabyGap and Hanna Andersson, and I started buying some pieces that fit better, wore better, and just made me feel better. It's easy to get in a fashion slump if you stay home with your kids.

While I love the convenience of a casual work environment, I remember fondly the days when I actually felt better about the way I looked, partially due to the professional attire I was required to wear. These days, those motherhood pounds try to hide in black pants and Danskos, and I catch a glimpse of myself sometimes and think "Is that really what I look like?" but until What Not To Wear finds me, it's just the way life is!

When I was in law school (only 3 years ago), we had student judge in a school court competition tell the female competitors in the after critique that they should never wear a pantsuit! Needless to say, when I ran the competition the next year, I told them that I had better not hear anything remotely like that! But at the same time, we had two female competitors that purposely wore very short skirt suits in and "hope we get male judges because we look cute!" AGH!

You know, I was poised to write about all the points you brought up - about how it felt to get a "talking to" by my first (male) boss about what is appropriate dress for the office (I realized quickly he wasn't being mean, but was doing me a favor) and how I felt 10 years later wanting to give the same talk to some of our interns. But this part of your blog today really hit a nerve with me:

"please answer the question: if you were the women with bad teeth, what would you do?"

I tried really hard for ten + years in the workplace (until moving and becoming a SAHM) to convince myself that it didn't matter that my teeth weren't perfect (the orthodontist I went to as a kid was a useless waste of space) or that having less than perfect skin wasn't the end of the world. It really hurts to think, to know, to have you affirm, that maybe it was a big deal.

I was able, after various hard-core treatments over the course of a year with my very patient dermatologist, to get a grip on the skin situation - and I did, in fact, notice a slight difference in the way I was treated at work. I always thought (hoped) it was because I felt and exuded more confidence, but maybe it was just a reaction to being considered "more attractive."

I feel like I have less control over the less-than-perfect teeth, since that requires a greater financial committment I can't make right now, but I am seriously considering doing the orthodontics a second time, perhaps when my daughter gets to the age where she needs braces - maybe we can do it together.

Back to the clothes - I never really felt judged by what I did or didn't wear. I was always fortunate to work in "business casual" environments, where a nice top or sweater with dress pants or a skirt was always sufficient. Seriously, where I used to work, if I showed up in a full skirt or pant suit, everyone thought I had either a) been on an interview with some big shot (I was a reporter), or b) I'd been on a job interview.

My favorite dressing experiences were when I was pregnant, frankly, because I found the workplace to be so forgiving. I was able to dress even more casually (and comfortably!) than ever because I was massively pregnant in DC in the summer, and nobody seemed to care what I wore, they were just thrilled and impressed that I got to work each day.

I think I look best in ao dai. It is elegant, professional and slightly alluring. Now, I need to loose a few pounds so I can fit in it again.

Well, I will share that my self confidence improved when I went back to work part-time after staying home for almost five years. Whether it was needing to have clean, unwrinkled non-stretch pants on, perhaps !even! a skirt, or the simple fact of a professional life once again, I haven't decided.

Agreed on the "dressing like a SAHM" comment - a little tacky to be lumping all SAHM's into a bad dress category. I know plenty of SAHMs that dress like they are going to nighclubs half the time: Low-rider jeans, belly shirts, flat-ironed hair, perfect make-up - it is so silly. I know looking good is important to many people, myself included, but looking appropriate is just as important. Volunteering at school in knee-high boots, tight skirt, dressy leather jacket? And no - these women are not on their way to the office.

About harrassment - when I was about 25 I worked in a very conservative office. We implemented "Casual Friday" - some people started to wear old jeans, ripped t-shirts, etc. It was refined and there were some strict guidelines. I wore a pair of nice black capris with a black t-shirt -neither of which were too tight, pair of casual low heeled sandals - to work on a Friday. The manager of the office pulled me aside and told me that although he saw nothing wrong with my outfit, it made one of my male co-workers "uncomfortable and unable to concentrate" and I shouldn't wear the outfit again. I told him I thought that was BS - and he agreed - but just reminded me that they had already refined the casual Friday dress code once and if there were continued complaints we'd lose it. So I was being told - look frumpier so as not to excite any middle aged men - or the casual friday was off. I know which man complained - he was constantly oggling the younger women - so I made a complaint against him and his wondering eyes. Strangely it was not taken as seriously as the outfit complaint, which ticked me to no end. I left the co a couple months later (for another job), otherwise I would have pursued the matter.

So I agree to an extent that the frumpier you look, the more work you can get done as no one will "bother" you with looks and comments. Of course if the looks and comments are inappropriate it should be reported.

"but I am seriously considering doing the orthodontics a second time..."

If you can afford it, this is probably one of the best things that you can do for yourself. I had horribly spaced teeth. One tooth was basically in the roof of my mouth rather that my jaw! My late parents made sure that my teeth were straightened. I still thank them for this many years after they went on.

Fredia has perfect teeth, but of course 3 of 4 of our children got mine!

For the teeth, I'd think really hard about how _I_ thought I looked. If I agreed they were awful and could afford the work, I'd consider that a convincing reason to get it done. If I disagreed that it was a problem (and I actually wanted to go on trips) I'd start looking for another job.

Topics like this make me so glad I'm an engineer. At my first job I struggled to define the dress code because just about everyone I saw was a male engineer in a blue collared shirt and khakis. The only women were in HR or business development, and they dressed entirely differently. I did the blue shirt and khakis thing for a while, but have eventually branched out to some skirts and more interesting blouses. My husband thinks I worry too much (he works at the same company, and goes to work in jeans and a polo shirt every day). I think that as a young woman in a male-dominated field, maintaining a slightly more formal style of dress can only help me be taken seriously. I hope I'm right.

Wow. This is another topic where Leslie seems to have intentionally written it in such a way as to exclude the men.

This issue is not unique to women/moms in the workplace, so why paint it that way?

The workplace equally discriminates against "ugly" or unkept men.

I had a boss once say that people should dress for the job you WANT to have. People can imagine you better in that role if they can see it. Of course she meant always wear conservative power suits. Works well for corporate-type jobs. Climb that corporate ladder.

But I am a designer. I imagine a graphic designer in conservative power suit and my impression would be that they must not be very creative. Plus, I would never want to "move up" into management. I wear slacks and sweaters to work. (Splitting the difference). Not everyone wants to exude "power" to feel successful.

When I was working at a low-level job where I did archeological-type stff, I guess that meant I should have been dressing more like Indiana Jones to move up...

Naturalizer pumps! My advisor in school wore the same pair of taupe pumps that were *broken* on the sides. She thought that they might be older than her students, but she couldn't actually remember.

She was also very into the girls in her lab wearing pantyhose with skirts when presenting. I was once presenting at a conference and had on a nice navy suit and no tights, just my bare, very Irish legs I inherited from my mother. After I was through my labmate made a comment to my advisor that she let me get up there without pantyhose. My advisor gave my legs a long look and said that she had assumed I was wearing white ones.

I will answer the teeth thing like this: I have known many people with bad teeth. They didn't have the money to get them fixed and would have jumped at the chance for someone to actually pay to get them fixed for them. I have pretty good teeth thanks to some nice initiative to give kids fluoride treatments at my elementary school when I was little.

Second, I once had an internship boss who told me that I needed to dress more like the other girl in my group. Well, the other girl exercised three hours a day, ate next to nothing, tanned herself silly, and out side of work was the biggest snob ever. I think it was her total image that the boss liked, not her clothes, which is very sad. The same lady also told me to go get my nails done. I was like, yeah I have the money for that, but if she would have paid for it, I would have done it.

On the "what to wear to work issue" I am working right now from home in jeans and a sweat shirt. I am not much of a dress up girl when I am at work and prefer nice slacks and tops, the occasional skirt and in the summer khakis and Capri pants. I love shoes and would buy every pair of Ann Klein shoes ever made if I could afford it. Right now, I limit myself to two pairs a year unless I find them on sale.

It is sad that people are still noticed when they are prettier, but I also think that sometimes it is more about how neat you are too. I once worked with a very nice lady who wore tank tops, long skirts and converse high tops; needless to say a lot of people thought she was a slob.

"Volunteering at school in knee-high boots, tight skirt, dressy leather jacket?"

Sometimes I wonder what world you all live in. I've never seen anyone wear anything near this description to school functions. I've also seen SAHM's wear the ponytail, baggy jeans and sweatshirt everyday or nice-fitting jeans and a nice sweater everyday. Let's not use that 10 foot broad brush again!

I had a feeling the thin-skinned on this blog would call her on the SAHM comment. She probably just meant jeans and a sweater fit in better with the SAHMs than whatever she wears to work, which is probably suits most of the time. I don't think she was saying that all SAHMs wear frumpwear.

SPC, I'm with you on trying to dress a little nicer. I work in an office where clothes run the gamut from jeans and tennis shoes to shirt and tie. When I'm working outside it's jeans, but in the office I do the dress shoes, slacks, and a blouse (khaki and I don't work well, I'm magnetically attracted to food spills). It's nicer than half the office, but it makes me feel like I'm at work.

Of course I also went to Catholic schools and was raised with a uniform and the expectation that one did dress up for work/school each day. Of course the uniform rocked as far as morning decisions went.

I change into scrubs when I get to work so am very very lucky - in the summer I can wear shorts.

As for the teeth - one thing to think about is that if they are seriously misaligned then you can have jaw and other dental related problems as you age. I know alot of people who have gotten braces in their 40s just for that reason.

As much as I hate that it's the case, what you wear makes a huge difference in a professional setting.

Proud Mama is a bit of a fashion plate, and used to get called "lovely" as part of the evals of her moot court exercises in law school. She hated it at the time, but she now recognizes that it helps the judges remember her and it's easier to build credibility over time when the judges remember you. And anybody who makes the mistake of assuming she's just a pretty face realizes she's a good lawyer once they hear her argue.

I've had the experience of a lower-middle class minority upbringing where I was not taken seriously as a young professional who wore what he could afford at the time. A certain % of co-workers and clients would simply dismiss me until I had proved myself in their eyes. As I've gotten older I've built a decent wardrobe and I note that the "judge a book by it's cover" crowd is much more likely to have a better first impression of me if I'm wearing what they perceive to be stylish and well-tailored (read: expensive) suits.

The difference in immediate credibility is so vast, so obvious, and so useful, that I advise all young professionals to build a smart, stylish wardrobe as soon as is practical.

Epilogue: Baby food is really hard to get out of suede. Snot does not look good on silk. Act accordingly.

I also love coat dresses. I have a suite of them in various colors. My power pink dress and coat are great internal pick-me-ups as well as one great presentation outfit. Everyone remembers me and my presentation material. My hunter green is great for presentations to a more staid group: like bankers and such.

However, I do have one awful clothing story. I was an ee prof at the time and very pregnant. I was 7 1/2 months pregnant teaching a class. The students review the teacher at the end of each semester. They a)dinged my pregnancy clothes saying they were awful and said b)I shouldn't have been teaching when pregnant. I like to think these young men would be ashamed of what they wrote 17 years gone by.

Dotted,

As long as it was not sage green!

Hey NewSAHM,

Good Housekeeping says that LLBean's Carefree Unshrinkable T-Shirt is amazingly stain resistent. Don't work for either company, but as a messy person, I do find that stains come out easier so I don;t have to trash things as often

Worst outfit ensemble I have ever seen (and this was in a government building): Fat woman (not heavy, not 'thick' -- fat) wearing a very tight, leopard-skin top with silver, latex-y pants. She had a nice roll of stomach fat hanging out, and concluded her outfit with tiny, stiletto-like pink heels.

I believe I just stared in disbelief as she walked by. And, of course, I take it she thought she looked pretty darn good from the way she was strutting.

They a)dinged my pregnancy clothes saying they were awful and said b)I shouldn't have been teaching when pregnant.

That is harsh and not very kind. What does ee stand for?

My daughters claim that women walk around in public wearing sports bras, exposing their thongs, and pants so low that their butt cracks show.

Can this be confirmed, or are my daughters just poking fun at me and taking advantage of my visual disability by jerking my chain?

proud papa: snot on silk? try breast milk leakage on anything not-natural fiber. Just not a good look to have...he he he

Why are all the "serious" women wearing black suits all the time? Everytime our government agency gets a visit from headquarters (they come in from DC) it looks like a funeral! Why does "professional" have to be so dreary? The tyranny of the dark suits is so depressing.

I think Leslie might mean that the SAHMs are likely to be at the playground in appropriate clothing, whereas I am likely to head down there with my daughter right from work, still in my work clothes, nice shoes and overcoat so that we have more time to play before dark.

It is true! Many younger women do this!

Fred, I was quite careful to say hunter green and thought of you. You picked it up! well done!

scarry: ee stands for electrical engineering. I was devastated at the time by their comments, but now that I'm no longer postpartum, I find it more indicative of their lack of experience with life and with women. I was their first woman prof, and it turns out, their only woman prof.

As fas as the SAHM comment, lets try to look at it this way. There is business attire and casual attire. I think most would agree that SAHMs fall into casual attire. I'm sure not at play dates with pantyhose, pumps, and my reasonably-priced Kasper suits that I wear to work. However, even before I had my son I dressed casually when I wasn't at work, but since I didn't have children, no one would call it SAHM attire. In my mind, SAHM equals casual. I can't go to work in my SAHM clothes. I don't understand why SAHMs are offended by this workplace reality.

As for being attractive, it doesn't hurt to put you best face (hair, and nails) forward. In many fields, the employee of either sex is a package that must be sold to clients. Part of that package is how you look, not meaning are you "pretty" but is her hair "done" or well styled, did he shave and groom properly? Making the bset of the features you have is more important than the features alone.

electrical engineering

Dotted,

My dad was a double e. Maybe this is where I got my fashion sense. That or my Marine Corp (sainted) Mother!

Lucy, I wear predominantly black because
a) I have 3 critters with black fur and
b) so when I spill my coffee, it is not so obvious!

I'm at home right now today so I'm wearing a tennis warmup suit, not my work suits...

but hey, it is still a 'suit!' navy blue even.

I am working from home today, I am wearing black sweats. At least, I think they are black, darn color blindness.

What color is sage green anyway? Maybe a link to it?

I mentioned the other day that Husband has my ideal wardrobe: he figured out how many white shirts, black pants, blue shirts, tan pants, et al he needs. When an item wears out, he replaces it. He doesn't browse in stores and say, "Hey, I like this sweater" and buy it; he figured out a long time ago what works for him and doesn't devote any more thought to it.

I've tried to implement this, both for work and off-time. I only buy clothes in five colors (black, white, red, camel, pale blue). Everything coordinates. Instead of buying a bunch of pairs of Old Navy jeans, I save my money and buy one pair of really good, flattering jeans. I have way fewer clothes than I did five years ago, but they all coordinate, they all fit well, and they're all high quality. It makes a big difference at work.

Oh, if only clothes, particularly sexy clothes did not make a difference in the work world. Unfortunately for me in a prior job at a law firm as a paralegal not only was a co-worker promoted she basically pushed me out of my job - she wore very short skirts, high boots with no stockings, probably had implants and talked like a little girl. She was rewarded for this. I wore suits and the usual law office attire and had better collections that she did. When I told people who replaced me/was promoted over me - they were astounded - the two questions they had were: Are they real? (I don't know) and Does she really talk like that? (no, it is fake) I have since changed jobs and don't have this problem. I hate to read articles that say dressing sexy will not get you anywhere in the business world - oh, yes it will. Not that I am willing to dress that way.

Several years ago I worked for a company where most of the client contact was via phone or e-mail so we could pretty much wear what we wanted in the office. That meant jeans or leggings and sweatshirts a lot of the time. So that's mostly the type of clothing I even owned. Well, I ended up having to go to a trade show to exhibit rather unexpectedly, with two weeks or less notice, to fill in for one of my bosses. I obviously knew I needed to get some clothes but my boss took it upon herself to drill into my head that I needed to be very conservative conservative conservative, not too feminine, business-like. Well, fine. I spent most of a weekend looking for conservative business attire that I still liked, didn't cost too much, and looked nice on me. Well, I went to the trade show and saw people, exhibitors and attendees, wearing all sorts of stuff. Some conservative, a lot not. But just the way this woman stressed what I should wear made me wonder what she thought I was going to buy. Especially since I wasn't particularly impressed with her sense of style.

By the way, Father of 4, yes, there are women who "walk around in public wearing sports bras, exposing their thongs, and pants so low that their butt cracks show." I've even seen it where I work in a government office. I'm sorry, I don't think pants should be cut so low that I can tell what kind of underwear a person is wearing. Ewww.

When I think of SAHM gear I think of what I wear over the weekend - comfortable clothes (jeans, kakis, shorts, etc) the type of clothes you can get down on the floor and play in.

I work in a field where most people were in the peace corps - so tevas, ethnic wear (clothes from Africa, Asia, etc) mixed with DC wear is the standard. It was all to confusing to me, so last year I purchased two weeks of suits, and just cycle them. It makes getting ready in the morning easy because you are just putting on your uniform, rather than having to pick out an outfit. The other strategy is to make sure that your shirts do not need to be ironed or dry cleaned. This makes dry cleaning bills a bit cheaper because you can wear the suit a couple times, but not usually the shirt.

I have read in a few places that you should dress for success, or at least show that you care what you look like. Make up, earings, clothes, etc all count in some sense. I hate it but it is true. One thing that I have a weakness for is comfortable shoes, and I wear flip flops in the summer, and lands end all weather mocs in the winter (with my suits)... working on that one this winter.

I also subscribe to the "dress for the job you want" camp, so I wear dress pants and nice sweaters. For me, though, two things are more important than what you wear.

The correct fit is essential (any What Not to Wear watchers agree with me?). You could have a nice suit that is too big, and you will look like a slob.

Hair is an issue with me. I have almost waist-length hair, but it's layered and styled, not straggly and gross. I wear it in a bun or braid everyday because I think it's inappropriate to leave long hair down at work. Maybe people will disagree with me, but I think long hair is way too casual for work.

But I'm also the person who refuses to wear heels and make-up to work, so maybe people will think that that is unprofessional.

Father of 4, it's sadly true. I see that a lot. My husband and I have this joke where we point out visible thongs. I guess I was like that a few years ago in college, but now it makes me cringe.

I am also amazed by the women who always look the same, i.e., who have full make-up, flat-ironed hair, and designer jeans at noon on a weekday and at midnight on the weekend. At work, I wear pants and sweaters. After work and on the weekend days, I wear jeans and sweatshirts or tee shirts. On weekend nights, I wear the make-up and designer jeans and flat-iron my hair. You'd never catch me at the grocery store in heels and big earrings. Imagine the time spent in front of the mirror!

A word of advice about pointy-toed spike heels. I wore high heels every day to work for a million years. I know they look fetching and do great things for the appearance of your legs. The end result is now I can't wear decent-looking shoes anymore. They ruined my feet. Now I'm relegated to wearing comfy low-heeled clunkers. Word of advice: if you want to save your feet, switch off to lower heeled pumps occasionally.

On the worst work outfit: a black female attorney showed up in tight black leather pants, spike-heeled boots, heavy metal belt, and big hair. Totally unprofessional for a large law firm. She was also known for low-cut blouses and bright red toenails. She didn't stay here very long. I know I'm going to catch flak for noting this, like "what does her appearance have to do with her performance" -- well, it was entirely out of place for a conservative office. Maybe if she was in show biz, a hooker, or advertising it would fly. Not here.

I will throw another twist into this discussion. I am an African-American woman who is an attorney at a big firm. I AM ALWAYS CONSCIOUS OF WHAT I WEAR! Whether it is reality or perception, I recognize that when I walk into a room judgments are immediately made about my competency and intelligence simply based on my presentation (and yes, I will go further and say that I do not believe that my white collegues deal with the issue at the same level). Accordingly, being dressed at my best is a necessity not a luxury.

Additionally, I NEVER dress down on casual Friday. After having one too many Senior Partner confuse me with the secretaries or mail clerks in the office, I refuse to wear anything below "business casual." It avoids the embarassment for the "mistake" and my ire at the assumption that was made.

I will throw another twist into this discussion. I am an African-American woman who is an attorney at a big firm. I AM ALWAYS CONSCIOUS OF WHAT I WEAR! Whether it is reality or perception, I recognize that when I walk into a room judgments are immediately made about my competency and intelligence simply based on my presentation (and yes, I will go further and say that I do not believe that my white collegues deal with the issue at the same level). Accordingly, being dressed at my best is a necessity not a luxury.

Additionally, I NEVER dress down on casual Friday. After having one too many Senior Partner confuse me with the secretaries or mail clerks in the office, I refuse to wear anything below "business casual." It avoids the embarassment for the "mistake" and my ire at the assumption that was made.

Sage green is entirely impossible to describe to a color-blind individual. But it's pale, silvery-grey green. Next time you're at the store, look at the sage in the produce aisle. It's a match. (Unlike many colors which are named for a real-life item and don't correspond at all.)

There is an attractive woman in my office who dresses in a very revealing way. She is also extremely competent and works very hard - often pulling long hours and juggling multiple projects.

Due to her attire, the majority of our colleagues dismiss her achievements, such as promotions and being assigned to increasingly high-level projects, due to her attire. There is a great deal of resentment towards her, by both men and women alike. Although one person, our most senior officer, continues to (rightfully) promote her, I wonder what would happen if he retired - others don't consider her a valued employee.

I guess my point is that dressing in a revealing way can also backfire. I see it every day diminishing the credibility of a competent employee.

Lizzie,
I've often hoped to build a wardrobe like the one you're describing-- carefully edited, everything goes together, etc. How do you put it together? Please describe more! Thanks.

Not totally color blind, just cannot see some shades of brown and red.
Take a look at this website.

http://www.toledo-bend.com/colorblind/Ishihara.html

Fred,
There are websites where we can non color blinders can see what you guys see. Mostly they're for web designers and visual artists who need to communicate with everyone. I forget the website rightn ow, but you could google it.

Also, there are palates on the web of colors that often use color names next to them. Perhaps search under "web safe colors."

I dated a color blind guy for a while, so I was always really interested in what color blind people saw. Christmas looks like a boring time, from those comparison websites. :)

Fred, you know how there's always an Ishihara test in high school biology books? We were going over that lesson one day senior year, the teacher is explaining how it works, and everyone in the class is nodding and concurring and such. Josh, poor kid, had made it to the age of 18 without ever knowing he was color-blind. After a couple minutes of discussion about this test, he jumped up and exclaimed "Y'all are [messing] with me, right??"
A little sad, but funny. Even he thought it was funny... a week later.

I think people just need to learn to live with the fact that your appearance does have something to do with how people treat you. No one can resist biology - we are hard wired to make snap judgements based on what we see.

By taking the extra effort to properly groom yourself and wear appropriate clothing to work, you are in fact showing that you do care. Does anyone really enjoy dressing up in pantyhose and skirts? Not really. But the fact that you took the effort to look nice can be reflected into what kind of effort you will put into the job.

Employers or clients want to look at you and know that you are willing to do that extra step and take things to the next level... if you are wearing something with connotations of "slacker" written all over it, then who can blame them but to think that you may just throw in the towel if things get a little uncomfortable or too hard?

Of course once people get to know your work and what you do produce, what you wear and appearance may not be as important. But first impressions are everything until you get that foothold - and in my profession, I meet a new person every day so trying to win that first snap judgement on appearance is just a part of life.

I love how we all pretend that we don't do it too. Don't deny that if you were on a metro train with only 2 seats, one next to a person wearing a nice suit and well groomed and the other next to someone wearing stained or ripped old clothing and unkempt hair that you wouldn't instinctively sit next to the well dressed person thinking that they were somehow safer and more appealing as a seat mate.

Yea, I had no idea that I was slighly color blind until I was given the test in the army. I recall that there were about 25-30 cards. The tester would say what number do you see and I would say what number?

On of my friends was a naval officer. He could not see red/green. This is quite a disabilily in the navy!

Musts for women:

Make up- at the least mascara and lip gloss. Come on, you can take 5 seconds to swipe it on and look a little more put together!

Shoes: I think women who insist on trotting around in heels everyday are ridiculous. It is not sexy or professional to be limping around all day- or WORSE- when they TAKE OFF THEIR SHOES in the office. It doesn't matter if it's under your desk- When coworkers/boss come to your office- we can see your yucky feet! It's really gross.

Just wear nice flats or kitten heels- take a few minutes to try shoes on at the store and invest in a few expensive comfy pairs!

If you wear sandals of any sort- GET A PEDICURE. You can do it yourself- get a pumice stone, callous scraper, and some clear polish- all it takes!!

Clothes: fit is everything! It's also better to have a few nice pieces than a bunch of crap from old navy or sears. You'll look like an intern in that stuff. Everyone can spot polyester from miles away.
Pantyhose: In most places of business, panyhose are no longer required!Just wear skirts that fall at the knee or to the calf (no floor length skirts please!! this is no little house on the prairie!)
In the winter, opaque tights are back in- wear nice black or brown ribbed with a tweed skirt- very cute.

Being pretty: It really makes a difference. I think the key is that pretty people get in the door a lot easier than their fat/ugly counterparts.
I think my looks have played a huge role in securing jobs/how people look at me. I'm always very put together and the message sent is that I take work seriously! If i rolled into the office each day with no make up and messy hair- what message does that send to my boss??
I've gotten every job in which I've had a face to face interview. I'm not so beautiful that I'm snotty about it and make women hate me, but pretty enough that men love me.

It's all about the message. My mom used to say that my messy room sent a message about how I was feeling inside. I was a teenager and obviously was miserable!! so my rooom was miserable. If you project a put together image, then others thoughts towards you will follow suit!

Yay to anon at 9:47!

And for everyone who says, "I'm busy enough in the morning, I can't take the time to put on make up." I say, wake up five minutes earlier.

Too much of my wardrobe is dry clean/hand wash -- I have a weakness for cashmere and merino sweaters -- look great with jeans, layer nicely under jackets. I try to remember to wear my cotton items around BF 6 month old nephew. ;-)

I go for the best quailty suit I can afford and also take it to the tailor if need be. It's worth $20 to take the waist in, sleeve up - makes everything look better. I also strangely have a no navy blue policy -- I find there are too many "shades" of navy and matching is annoying. When I traveled a lot for work I was a fan of suit separates that offered a jacket, pants and skirt - made packing much easier.

Regarding high heels -- I have a weakness too but definitely rotate your pointier numbers with round or square toes. A running friend developed mortons neuroma, which is nerve damage in the 3rd or 4th toe due in part to her shoe choices!

I love old navy. They have some nice clothes.

For men:

The worst thing is the SWEAT!!! It's disgusting. Bring deoderant with you- don't put your suit jacket on until you get to the office- Always have a change of shirt/undershirt in the office. there's nothing worse than big sweat rings under the arms

And NO HAIRPIECES!!! DC is notorious for awful haripieces worn by politicians who seem to think no one notices. No combovers- we know you're bald- just go crewcut and be proud!

PLease- if I see navy and black worn together I'll scream. They DON'T MATCH!!

I also can't stand the pink/purple trend. It's nice with a white shirt and pink tie, but let's not overload it guys!

No shiny suits!! The "sharkskin" look just doesn't work for the office- Hollywood stars at an awards show MAYBE- but not DC wonks.

"I've gotten every job in which I've had a face to face interview. I'm not so beautiful that I'm snotty about it and make women hate me, but pretty enough that men love me."

Ah, the naivete and unquenchable ego of the very, very young.

As a southern lady, Fredia says "I feel naked without my makeup." You would really have to hear her say naked to get the full effect. Something on the line of nekkid!

This issue is on my mind a lot. I always feel like such a fraud when I wear a suit. I work now, and have always worked, in the non-profit sector, but each org has their own standards. The one I am at now is all about how you look and are not so subtle in pushing everyone to be uber professional. It's a lot of suits on kids in the late 20s and I think how can the afford it?

I actually admire one of my bosses who bucks the trend. She wears really creative, interesting outfits that says so much about who she is and what she's about. Of course, that's easier to do when you in charge.

Sort of related topic: how have people handled a co-worker who has terrible body odor or bad breath?

Well, I guess this pertains in age discrimination. What does little miss perfect who just told us all to wear lip gloss suggest we do when we are over 45? And we can't pay for the dentist to fix our less than perfect teeth, much less for plastic surgery. No one ever talks about the cost of dental care in this country, by the way.

Well, I guess this pertains in age discrimination. What does little miss perfect who just told us all to wear lip gloss suggest we do when we are over 45? And we can't pay for the dentist to fix our less than perfect teeth, much less for plastic surgery. No one ever talks about the cost of dental care in this country, by the way.

actually, what anon wrote at 9:47 sounds like something I read in cosmo 20-30 years ago. Your definition of what to wear works in some places, but not all. for me, lipstick, yes. mascara, no. pretty? pretty? Wow...what a loaded word. Looking your best doesn't mean looking the best. And it doesn't mean looking pretty either. jeez...you almost sound like those students who knocked my rather nice preggy attire 17 years ago.

"I've often hoped to build a wardrobe like the one you're describing-- carefully edited, everything goes together, etc. How do you put it together? Please describe more! Thanks."

It took a while. I started by figuring out which colors I wanted to focus on; I decided on my five (again, black, white, red, camel, pale blue) because every one matches every other one. I love charcoal grey, but it doesn't match camel (even though it matches the other four), so it's out. You have to be really ruthless about editing your colors. I've been living without pink, teal, purple, whatever for several years now, and I don't miss them; on the contrary, it eliminates whole categories of clothes that I don't have to waste my time looking at.

Once I decided on my colors, I started slowly buying my clothes. I think my first purchases were two identical wool crepe suits in camel and black. Each came with a skirt and pants. I built on that foundation by buying one more high-quality suit once or twice a year. I will admit that I've got three black suits - the original wool crepe; a black boucle skirt suit; and a black cashmere skirt suit. The different textures justified it for me; I can wear the different jackets with wool crepe pants or over a black dress. (Yes, I wear a lot of black.)

I'm now on year 6 or 7 of my restricted wardrobe and it's working extremely well. I only buy one or two pieces a season (except in summer, when I have to restock my work-ready T-shirt supply). This fall I bought a black Armani A-line scoopneck dress on deep (deep, deep, deep) discount. Everything I buy is on sale. I can't afford to buy this stuff at full price. But everything is also of very high quality, everything is tailored along classic lines, and everything is natural fibers. (A prejudice of mine; I can't stand the feel of most synthetics.) I've only got two scarves, but they look good with everything I own and I'll be able to leave them to my grandchildren.

My black wool crepe suit is starting to get shiny on the elbows, so I'm looking around for a replacement. I know exactly what I want and exactly how much to spend, so I don't mind taking my time to find exactly the right thing.

Unless you have the money to buy a whole new wardrobe all at once, it takes some time to set your clothes up according to this philosophy. For me, it's been worth it. My sister is one of those people who can throw on yoga pants, a tank top, and flip-flops and looks like she's been meticulously groomed by a professional stylist for the past four hours. I'm the opposite - if I don't pay very close attention to how I'm dressed and groomed, my natural state is to look a bit sloppy. Ruthlessly editing the wardrobe has been a huge help.

What are the thoughts on the pony tail... I ususally start the day with my hair down but it ends up in a low pony tail by the end of the day. I am in my early 30's and feel that I may depend way too much on it

A pet peeve of mine is bad hygiene. There is a woman in my office that just plain stinks. Ill-fitting, dirty clothes, even if it is a blazer and slacks - are not appropriate. No stains, animal smell, or people smell is good. She takes her shoes off under the table during meetings and it smells like an animal has died. I always try to sit far away from her. Once she took her shoes off and it was so bad that I started to gag in the middle of the meeting. I felt bad, but I had to say something. Just a quick, quiet "Please put your shoes back on" that only she could hear. She once complained to me that she didn't understand why our boss gave her low marks in her review for the section about personal appearance and attitude. And she also once told me that she never takes showers, only baths. (Must be rare, whichever method she uses...)

Freetime=metime:

"Volunteering at school in knee-high boots, tight skirt, dressy leather jacket?"

Sometimes I wonder what world you all live in. I've never seen anyone wear anything near this description to school functions."

Why would you wonder what world I live in as opposed to what world these "night club moms" live in? It is inappropriate the way these women dress to volunteer at school, but completely appropriate if they are going out for the evening. We have all kinds of moms, I was pointing out the absurd. Like the mom that went on a field trip to the Smithsonian with the 1st grade class is tight jeans, high heeled flip flops, and a tank top with her boobs hanging out. I don't know how she walked for 6 hours, or held in her stomach that long, but she looked ridiculous.

There are mothers that do nothing to accentuate the positive either. Sweats, baggy shirts, hair in ponytail, socks with sandals. I never broadly said all moms were in either the night club camp or the frump camp.

re: bad breath. I always carry mints with me. what I do when meeting someone with bad breath is to take a mint myself and offer them one also. It almost always works. No one is offended and life goes on.

Just wondering, how much does beauty lead to self-confidence?

In terms of beautiful people being promoted, how much of that is just that pretty people having a little more self-confidence in front of people?

I have never had to hire anyone, but I bet that their self confidence would play a major role, and I have to think that self-confidence is tied up with looks.

I know that my interview suit (the only suit I own that is not too cheap but only slightly tailored) makes me feel dumpy. Sometimes I feel like I'm not giving the besst impression because I feel ugly. Conversely, if I could go on interviews in my wedding dress, I bet I would get every based on how I feel I look (but of course no one would give a job to a crazy lady wearing a wedding dress to an interview!).

meesh...the mental image of a woman interviewing in a wedding dress boggles my mind. I have to admit I would do a mental hiccup, but it wouldn't stop me from hiring you!

LESLIE

I don't think any study was done BY the Journal of Labor; rather, it appeared IN the Journal of Labor. Please attribute the work to the people who did it, rather than the publication.

I'm a lawyer in a male dominated field. All of my co-workers in my practice group are male. I also look a bit young, so I like to dress very professionally to ensure that I'm taken seriously. Of course, in a law firm that means pant suit or skirt suit! I do have fun with my clothes and my shoes though. I LOVE shoes. It is possible to look stylish, professional, and competent without showing off too much leg or cleavage.

The men I work with never comment on my clothes, but I can't tell you how many times I've had a female client, opposing counsel, witness, random person in an airport, etc... tell me she loved my shoes/sweater/purse (it's usually the shoes). So dressing well does help people remember me and it makes me feel more professional.

Oh & here's one for you - when I took the bar exam in Virginia, rumor had it that they wouldn't allow women to wear pant suits to sit for the bar until recently. I have no idea whether or not that's true, but it's an interesting rumor....

http://lawyermama.blogspot.com

Dotted,

But only if she were wearing pantyhose with her wedding dress! :)

"I know exactly what I want and exactly how much to spend, so I don't mind taking my time to find exactly the right thing."

Lizzie, I'm glad this works for you and you have the time, but I do not. Your suggestions are ideal for someone young and/or childless. If one is not, shopping time and effort have to get more efficient. At a certain point, paying more to get something that fits me well and is in my hand right now, or working with a personal shopper, or only shopping at stores where we already know the garments fit makes sense. I don't have one Saturday a month and 2 weeknights to comparison shop all over town anymore (not that you do), and that's what it used to take for me to get price to line up with fit and design. ebay and specialty retailers on the web have become my godsends.

Fred, sage green was the color of the jacket Nancy Pelosi wore at the State of the Union the other night. It looked so lovely on her and was a breath of fresh air! I agree with the earlier poster about dark suits . . . that is all I see at the train station every day and it drives me bonkers. Why are people scared of color?

One comment for Just Lurkin' Today: why was it necessary to ID the unprofessionally dressed woman as black? What affect did that have on her ability to choose clothes? Would you have thought differently if the same outfit was on a white woman?

I third the "dress for the job you want" advice. I've always found that helpful, along with this one, given to me when I was a few years out of college and had *no clue* how to dress appropriately (and no cash to do so): "Dress as if your boss was unexpectedly home sick and you suddenly have to replace him or her in an interview or meeting." This actually did happen to me and I was caught less-than-prepared (in Doc Martens, no less) . . . never again. For the record, I'm of the "don't matter how much you paid for them, flip-flops are never OK to wear in the office, even on Friday" camp. But maybe I just associate them with one too many rustic (read: icky) campground shower stalls . . .

I'm in my late 20s and a mom, but I still make a very concerted effort to dress nicely for work. The dress for the job you want, not the job you have attitude is part of what has helped me go from legal secretary to paralegal to attorney at the same large law firm. My closet is full of Ann Taylor, Ann Taylor Loft, Banana Republic, and Nordstrom's Classiques Entier. Stylish, somewhat affordable (sales are key), always put together. I do wear heels, but I invest in comfortable heels - Calvin Klein's heels are great, as are Cole Haan and Ann Taylor. Hair is always neat, never in my face...makeup is always understated. I've continually (for years) received compliments from both men and women at work on my wardrobe...and I like it that way!

I concur with African American Attorney - people do make assumptions based on what you wear, and people who are not the usual stereotype in a job are under more pressure in that regard. I am a scientist, used to work in a large lab. I noticed that the female scientists dressed more "butch" than you might expect (little or no makeup, slacks/jeans) partly because if you wore a skirt people tended to think you were one of the secretaries or executive assistants. African American male scientists on the other hand dressed much more formally than the white male scientists (who tended to dress rather like grungy grad students) I suspect so as not to be mistaken for a janitor.

The longer I worked there the more I realized there was a sort of uniform for just about every job. Male scientists in basic research wore jeans and t-shirts mostly. But in applied research they dressed more like Dilbert - collared shirts and khakis. Female secretaries wore skirts and sneakers (which to me was weird because they didn't walk more than a lot of other workers, but that was kind of the uniform!). Women in the various other office jobs wore skirts and pumps. In the business-related functions, the women dressed in suits. In the finance division, the suits were spectacular designer ones. The "uniforms" for the men were noticeable too but the differences are harder for me to describe, still I could tell just by looking at how someone was dressed what level they were and what division they worked for. Which was fascinating to me.

Me? I've always dressed in functional clothes, when I was younger that included jeans but I've gradually worked up to a female Dilbert kind of attire, I want to feel able to climb on equipment and stand in a lab all day and don't care that much what people think... but still admit I am not young so feel strange in clothing that seems too much like I think I'm in my 20s. But I will dress better going to conferences and meeting customers, which is probably still casual by others' standards - nicer slacks and a blazer. I would buy a nice pants suit if I knew where to get one, I admire the sleek tailored ones that the Asian women scientists wear but dislike most that I see in my local stores. But I refuse to ever wear heels!

I totally agree with African American Attorney. I'm white, so it's not from experiences, but I had a latina friend tell me that white women could dress down without it being a huge problem, but minorities had to always dress better than the occasion to be taken seriously. That comment struck a cord and it's a really interesting observation and probably a big pain in the neck for a lot of minority men and women.

"Your suggestions are ideal for someone young and/or childless."

Actually, I do most of my shopping online. I know the designers that fit me and I can wait until one of them has something on sale. I hate to shop at brick-and-mortar stores and only go there when I have no other choice - maybe once or twice a year.

Don't think that I spend tons of time and effort patiently searching out clothes. Part of the reason it's taken several years for me to build up my wardrobe is that I don't go through several brick-and-mortar stores, meticulously culling through piles of stuff to see if they've got what I want.

Oh and worst outfit - this is very dated but thought the most ridiculous were the fat men in the old stretch leisure suits. Hideous! More recently I used to work with a male consultant who wore stretchy pants that had fit at one time but looked like they were cutting him in two. The waistband all but disappeared between the spare tires. And no he wasn't all that fat, just needed better fitting clothes! Which I think is true for everyone regardless of gender or size (I don't have a thing about heavier people, just people in really ill-fitting clothes).

Well, back when my daughter was a baby - I used to have to wear business suits to work every day. And, my baby's nickname was "droolie". Hence, every suit I owned, the jacket had drool and spit up spots on the right shoulder. It always happened on the way in, and everyone just got used to it. I seriously don't care about this stuff, but I wonder if it might have made a difference. Hmmmmmm.......

Just Lurkin' Today, we could have lived without the unnecessary information regarding the race of the unprofessionally dressed woman. I get the sense that you and everyone else in your office has tucked this one person's choices away in your "why Blacks don't really fit in this office" file for future reference. So sad. The good news is that your post reminded us all that employees from minority backgrounds are not necessarily being paranoid when they get the sense that their fashion choices are viewed in the context of their ethnicity.

I work in a very casual govt office, so I see jeans on people everyday. Most of the stuff I wear is from Ann Taylor. I am one of the youngest in the office (in my late twenties) and was complemented once by a 40ish woman that said she had never seen me in anything "inappropriate." (I am completely against showing any cleavage at all, whereas many young women here do on a weekly basis.)

It's interesting in the govt people can be so laid back. No one really cares what they wear here, except one supervisor, who always wears a suit. (Even today on Friday.) It's weird b/c no one wears suits, not even his boss or his boss's boss. I think it's inappropriate to wear a suit when no one else does. People see his as "ambitious" and that's when they're being nice.

The one thing that bothers me though is suntan pantyhose. If your legs are not naturally that dark, you look ridiculous in suntan pantyhose. PLEASE wear clear. One girl in law school a year below me always wore them (even in summer!) and she was known around school as "suntan pantyhose girl." Even the guys made fun of her. Honestly, it is so 80s, if you are wearing suntan pantyhose, you need to stop.

Just wanted to second the advice to men re not wearing hairpieces or combovers. A bald man who is confident and otherwise attractive is much more appealing than one who is trying to obscure his baldness. It just doesn't work, and men who take that approach convey the idea that they are embarrassed about how they look--which is not a turn-on!

slightly off topic -- why is it that when men go to buy a suit and dress shirts, they get to chose an inseam length an arm length, get it all tailored for a perfect fit, etc., but when women go shopping for the same, it is pretty much right off the rack and hope it fits. For women, the assumption is that our size increases in a locked ratio: if you are taller, you are equally wider.... tough on us tall gals that are thin. Can I get an amen, Meesh? On topic -- agree with the posters who have said it is as much about good grooming than what nature gave you.

I work at a company with a "business" dress code, and most days I like that. I'm in the "dress for success" camp.

My rules?
Color - must be color in my wardrobe, and not all black.

Comfortable shoes that I can walk 2 miles in should a disaster strike the DC area

Pantyhose a MUST 300 days out of the year

Skirts and a nice top are much easier to find than a dress that fits a post-pregnancy body AND doesn't reveal too much.

There are generational things though in the workplace. Last week we had a meeting with a high level gov't official. My boss insisted on taking our 22 year old assistant along to the meeting - she complained the entire day about wearing pantyhose - geeze! Get over it, every day isn't a beach day.

I actually think Robin Gihvan (sp?) gets it regarding Washington work. Despite her pinging of white stockings and wearing sneakers on the subway (which I ignore) I find that she has a grasp of what works here.

I have a number of female managers, and they run towards the Janet Reno look. Ok, maybe a little bit more current than that, but the jacket/suit. I want them to respect me, so I put a jacket on too. I wear skirts because I like them. I sit in an open area and wear them long so I'm not tugging them down when I'm explaining things to people.

Maybe in NYC in the fashion business you fancy-up, but in DC I dress to keep the focus on the great stuff I do, not what I look like.

If only I could do interest rate math in head - I'd be headed for the top then!

"I will throw another twist into this discussion. I am an African-American woman who is an attorney at a big firm."

Why did she ID herself as black?

"For women, the assumption is that our size increases in a locked ratio: if you are taller, you are equally wider"

Husband has this problem - he's got a 46" chest, but a 34" waist. The designers he prefers don't make 'athletic cut' suits or whatever the term is, so every suit he buys has to have the pants taken in, and usually the jacket as well. This is some fairly substantial restructuring and gets pretty spendy. Thankfully, he hasn't bought a new suit since we got married in 2001.

I telecommuted for six years so fashion wasn't a concern for the longest time, though I loved clothes then, as I always have. Now that I own my own boutique, I wear dresses almost every day, with either heels or boots. I can't stand women's versions of business clothes when they are male clothes reduxed for women. No, its dresses for me, or skirts with great tops, and I very rarely wear a blazer unless its cut with back darts or princess seams or has some version of a peplum to it. I have a woman's body, and I like it, and I like it show in what I wear. The purpose of that is not sexual, really, its simply not fighting nature nor trying to be a mini-me version of men. Its a woman's world.

"My boss insisted on taking our 22 year old assistant along to the meeting - she complained the entire day about wearing pantyhose - geeze!"

Ha! Remember the college women's lacrosse team that wore flip-flops to the White House?

to toNYlurker, African-American Attorney identified herself by ethnicity because it was directly relevant to her comment.

Just Lurkin' Today, on the other hand, identified an employee who made poor fashion choices by her race when her race was irrelevant to the poor fashion choices.

"I believe I just stared in disbelief as she walked by. And, of course, I take it she thought she looked pretty darn good from the way she was strutting."

More power to her!

People don't dress like that and strut unless they've gotten positive feedback from some quarter. Apparently, she wasn't strutting for you, "ilc," but for someone who appreciated her.

Live and let live.

AMEN!!!

I totally agree with African American Attorney. I'm white, so it's not from experiences, but I had a latina friend tell me that white women could dress down without it being a huge problem, but minorities had to always dress better than the occasion to be taken seriously. That comment struck a cord and it's a really interesting observation and probably a big pain in the neck for a lot of minority men and women.

Posted by: secondthoughts | January 26, 2007 10:10 AM

~~~~~~~~~~~~

You get used to it. Not happy that it's probably necessary, but you get used to it.

Because if you don't dress, "Just Lurkin'" won't remember simply that you're sloppy, but that you're black and sloppy.

Apparently, she wasn't strutting for you, "ilc," but for someone who appreciated her.

Yea, maybe herself and only herself. Most males would snicker as loudly as most women at this!

Younger women seem to think pantyhose are unnecessary, but I see it just as bad as being bra-less. I am 50, so maybe it's age and/or generational. If your superiors are older, you may want to consider wearing pantyhose even if all your younger contemporaries see it as ridiculous.

FWIW, I would never go bare-legged because my Irish heritage has given me legs so white that my co-workers would need to wear sunglasses :).

Neat and clean is important, but some of the comments referring to individual stylishness seem to indicate that many posters here are really quite superficial.

Don't laugh, but try an image consultant! I went back to a formal office after 15 years of work at home and SAHM. My home uniform was stirrup pants and long sweaters, and office styles (and my waistline) had changed too.

A very reasonably priced pro helped me learn the colors that look best and worst on me and helped me develop the pieces of a wardrobe that is efficient for my life. Most things coordinate so easier to dress, got rid of the will-never-fit again stuff. Less clothes but I feel great even in my Saturday (better fitting more flattering) jeans. I also spend much less money and don't buy things that I wonder about later.

I'm an ee too - maternity clothes were tough!

I recently took an internship seminar (I am in law school) taught by an African American woman. One day we were talking about appropriate workplace dress and whether you should always toe the conservative line. She said that after she graduated from law school she always dressed as conservatively as possible, but one day she looked in the mirror and said, I am not going to be able to hide the fact that I am an African American women, so I might as well own it. Then she said that she started dressing in a way that reflected her individual style - still very professional, and largely conservative, but she would kick it up a notch with great jewelry, shoes, whatever. She is forever my style icon because she made me realize that looking professional doesn't mean sacrificing your personality.

One day this white girl in my office wore locks and big white boots that looked like wrestling boots and a short skirt.

Yawn.

LOL at all the shallowness in the world. However, there is no avoiding it. From the politician who told the unemployed guy to get a haircut so he could get a job, to the people who think EVERYONE wearing a trench coat is in the trench coat mafia or something sinister. People are just too quick to judge on appearance.
It is true that spending thousands of dollars on getting teeth straightened is out of the reach of most people- they would rather have a better car, or make a house or rent payment. My dental program does not cover squat so I can not get teeth straightened. When I was in the Air Force, the brilliant tech chipped a tooth doing a routine cleaning and it has been cold sensitive since- and then they tried to fix that by putting some sort of patch filling on the sensitive teeth and that was not effective and just made my teeth not look as good as they were... of course the Veterans Affairs clinic does not do dental- much less fix the screw-ups the military did do to my teeth when I was on active duty... so anything I want done I will have to pay for out of pocket at some point- the sooner the better, if only for health and not appearance reasons.

toNYlurker wrote:

"'I will throw another twist into this discussion. I am an African-American woman who is an attorney at a big firm.'

Why did she ID herself as black?"

You're kidding right? We're talking about how people dress for work, not how people of African descent ID themselves. That is another discussion. I notice you didn't mention the latina vs. hispanic of another blogger. Wonder why that is? Stay on point please.

"Shoes: I think women who insist on trotting around in heels everyday are ridiculous. It is not sexy or professional to be limping around all day- or WORSE- when they TAKE OFF THEIR SHOES in the office. It doesn't matter if it's under your desk- When coworkers/boss come to your office- we can see your yucky feet! It's really gross."

Anon at 9:47- I can't stand that either!! Gross!

okay, so I have really white legs too and sometimes in the summer I don't wear panty hose. I think it is a younger person thing because some of my friends don't wear them either.

However, I get made fun of because my legs are really white and said friends are somewhat tanned.

"Being pretty: It really makes a difference. I think the key is that pretty people get in the door a lot easier than their fat/ugly counterparts."

9:47 --

Not too shallow, are you?

How nice for you that you get every job on the basis of your pretty face. Don't you ever feel a twinge of doubt about your actual capabilities?

Just out of curiosity, I'd like to hear your description of fat/ugly people.

PLS is lucky to afford the wardrobe she brags about. Not everyone has that kind of budget.

I believe I just stared in disbelief as she walked by. And, of course, I take it she thought she looked pretty darn good from the way she was strutting.

I agree with pittypat - good for her. I'm so tired of women picking themselves apart over the most minute of flaws. Doesn't matter if I don't like what she's wearing, if I see a woman who feels good about herself then I say good for you. Its very hard to do in today's society. Deconstructing ourselves and other women has become a stupid and destructive pasttime.

"stirrup pants"

Stirrup pants??? Oh my gosh! The horror!! AAAHHHH

I guess this discussion is making me very glad I work in a government office - nobody cares - and I've never heard of anyone here getting a "talking-to" about their clothes. I hate spending money on clothes and do all my (outerwear) shopping at the Goodwill and Salvation Army - wish I felt that way about shoes - they're damned expensive and I love them :)
I really disagree with the idea that women SHOULD wear makeup in the office. Makeup has nothing to do with looking "professional".

I am sort of offended by the woman that said that pantyhose are necessary to hide the color of her white legs. I too have Irish heritage, and a have very white legs too, but that is the color that God made me, I don't think I should have to hide that. Also, I don't think that hose are necessary if you have nice legs and a conservative-length skirt. Older people may want to make their legs look more smooth and even-toned. I think hose should be a personal choice.

I just was wondering why NYC lurker was making such a big deal out of the fact that someone said someone was African American when, they themselves discuss it in the conversation. Didn't see the Latino comment and it doesn't pertain to my discussion with NYC lurker.

There was an article in the Washington Post magazine a couple of years ago about how poor dental maintenance, common for anyone in poverty or otherwise struggling just to get by, was a barrier to moving up the employment ladder. This is not an issue of one or more individuals preferring a nicer car over straight teeth, as another poster stated. Many have no dental coverage and no extra income to devote to dental maintenance. If you're struggling to pay the electric bill to heat your doublewide to 60 degrees, that root canal might just be out of reach. As a result, as each tooth rots, they get it pulled at a clinic. By age 45 or so, these potential employees become essentially unhireable for any but the most low skilled and low paying jobs.

Access to dental care is something most of us don't appreciate and should.

I'm not really a clothes horse (my husband has more clothes than I do), but the power of well-fitting, high quality clothes cannot be underestimated in the business sphere. And if you wear them as if you wear nothing *but* clothes that look that good, you'd be amazed how seriously people can take you at their first impression.

I went from being a Geologist to being an Internet consultant. In both fields, dressing up was looked on as suspect as jeans were the expected norm. Whenever I dressed for client contact (suit or coordinates, ultra-groomed hair and makeup), people thought I was interviewing elsewhere. Or, I was told I took my job too seriously. Maybe - but the clients always appreciated it.

As for dressing up now that I have my own business...I have one great long dress (Laura Ashley, black with small flower clusters), one or two dark suits (and one deep red one for "business dress" parties), and some good quality separates that took me a long time to collect. And I accessorize with antique jewelry - more artisan than bling.

With the exception of my Laura Ashley dress, none of my outfits approach "girly", and I certainly don't expose a lot of skin. But none of them make me look like I'm trying to dress like a man either, and that's deliberate for two reasons:

1) what I wear from my day to day is pretty androgynous - when I get a chance to dress up in my good clothes I want to look like I'm a woman...and...

2) I'm usually one of the only women in the room (if not the only one). I never melt into the room. Since I don't fit in, I'm going to wear what I like that is appropriate to the professional situation.

Mostly I wear good riding boots as my dress shoes, or some 2" pumps with the clunkier Spanish heel. Not "au courant", but I have joint problems, and I *do* miss my 3" almost-stilettos ;)

Basically, I wear what I feel and look good in, and that gives me the confidence to be taken seriously. I've had many long-time male colleagues tell me that when they first met me, they immediately thought more about how attractive I was, rather than how competent I might be. The more they got to know me, they appreciated the fact that I was insanely good at my job...but they still thought I was attractive, too. A bit id-based perhaps, but at least my professional competence ranked above my appearance over time.

I think women look at other women and cast judgement more than men do.

I work in a male-dominated non-profit organization (I'm female and in my early 20's), and while I'm not fat by any means I'm certainly not as tall and skinny nor have as perfect a figure as most of the other young women who work here. The pretty girls get more attention from the predominently male bosses, and while that doesn't mean they get more pay or better projects, it certainly does give them an unfair advantage when it comes to networking and developing relationships with the higher ups.

"Younger women seem to think pantyhose are unnecessary, but I see it just as bad as being bra-less. I am 50, so maybe it's age and/or generational. If your superiors are older, you may want to consider wearing pantyhose even if all your younger contemporaries see it as ridiculous."

It is too hot to wear pantyhose in the summer in DC! In the winter though pantyhose are a necessity.

Re: Tar heel gal:

slightly off topic -- why is it that when men go to buy a suit and dress shirts, they get to chose an inseam length an arm length, get it all tailored for a perfect fit, etc., but when women go shopping for the same, it is pretty much right off the rack and hope it fits. For women, the assumption is that our size increases in a locked ratio: if you are taller, you are equally wider.... tough on us tall gals that are thin. Can I get an amen, Meesh? On topic -- agree with the posters who have said it is as much about good grooming than what nature gave you.

Here's an "Amen" from the male side. As someone who buys a fair number of his wife's clothes (Paul Pelosi's my new role model, except we can't afford the Armani :-), this is a royal pain to deal with.

And "Amen" to the other posters about dressing appropriate for the job you want. That doesn't always mean suits and ties. I'm an engineer (computer network designer, specifically). If anyone showed up here with a suit on, he or she would be marked as a business development person/sales-droid and ignored. The Chief Scientists wear jeans or khakis; t-shirts or polos. That applies to males and females, both. If you want to be one of those, dress like that.

(True story: I used to be a Fed. On the first day back from my honeymoon, I was only supposed to be in the office for a couple of hours, doing paperwork reflecting my new status - insurance changes, beneficiaries, etc. I got summoned by the boss to give a briefing on a project to a visiting Marine Brigadier General. Problem - I'm wearing a Hawaiian shirt, jeans and sandals. It's late July, I'm just back from Hawaii, I wasn't supposed to see anybody. I told the boss "what you see is what you get." I didn't have time to go home and change; if she wanted me to give the briefing it was going to be dressed like that. I gave the briefing, eliciting a few stares when I walked in to the conference room - BUT I found out later that that BG had told his aide when I walked in "pay close attention to what this guy says. If they let him come to work dressed like that, it's because he's the one who knows what's really going on and how to solve the problems." So it really can matter how you dress.)

There is a very thin line for women and attire, especially in male-dominated workplaces. For example, on the Hill (old boys club environment if there ever was one), too many women miss the mark, and - yes, unfortunately - I think it does impact the way they are treated.

On one hand you have the women one generation older than me (in their late 30s and up) who dress like they (1) want men to forget they are there, or (2) want to be mistaken for a man. I think that these women - in their too-big pantsuits and no make-up, frumpy shoes, etc. - are from the school of thought that women will never be taken seriously in a man's world. Unfortunately, I think they are disregarded as people, and just used for their amazing brains. Perhaps this is the point, but I find it sad - how will anyone treat you as an equal if you don't believe it?

Then there are the silly girls in their early 20s who are interns or (mostly) staff the front offices of members. These girls look like they just stepped off plant Tara Reid - over-tanned, sky-high heels, teeny skirts, and lots of cleavage. Some of them are very attractive, but no one takes them seriously. Reall - does anyone think Trent Lott is a better Senator because he has a bevy of beautiful Southern girls answering his phones? I have never seen one of these girls promoted, and I wonder if they leave to Hill for PR. While they might be very intelligent, their looks keep them down.

Finally, there is starting to be a section of the Hill population (mostly young lawyers - in their 20s and 30s) who embrace the fact that they are women and expect to be taken seriously. I wonder if this is a sign of changing times - that women of my generation have an expectation of equality so it never occurred to us to dress up or down in order to be taken seriously? I find that these women dress very professionally, but also have style, grace and personality - whether that means great shoes, of-beat colors, or skirts when they feel like it, not because their boss may love it...

However, there are many fewer of these women who seem to have hit the mark than there are women in the other two categories.

Then there is Nancy Pelosi who continues to dress like a star - perfect suits, great hair and make-up (even if the ridiculous diamonds have to go and the plastic surgery is a little over the top). BUT, she is practically made of money, and I am not sure it is possible to dress like that if you don't have a personal shopper at Armani...

Didn't mean to offend anyone. I said that I would never go bare-legged because of my skin tone. I also said that things may be generational. People around my age see bare legs as being unfinished or incompletely dressed. Some have said that you should always wear make-up, others say make-up is not necessary. I happen to think you should wear pantyhose, others don't. Don't take it so personally.

When deciding to "dress for success", or "for the job you want, not the one you have", keep in mind that the people you are trying to impress may not have the same idea as you regarding what is appropriate.

I think we're missing the point- isn't the real issue here: What does your looks/appearance/style say about who you are??

Someone mentioned that good looking/ better dressers FEEL better about themselves and will be more likely to get a job by exuding that confidence. Also liked the messy room analogy.

If one is overweight and/or a bad or sloppy dresser, what message are they sending to the world? I don't think it's a matter of being gorgeous, just a matter of self respect and respect for the environment that one is in.

I dress pretty well (I'm definitely a great bag and accessories girl, worn with basics), but i"m also a single mom and exhausted by the time I do breakfast/get us dressed/make lunch/get her to school/get me to work. I also walk everywhere, so heels are out for me. The days that I have time to get my hair blown out, etc my coworkers notice!

I always wear some kind of hose, and I'm a younger woman. I will not go bare-legged when in a professional situation. A lot of my female coworkers don't seem to have a problem with it, but I do.

I'm not scarry I understood what you were saying. To not wear pantyhose is a choice and I mostly see it among younger women. I also see it among women on the lower end of the work ladder. I have never seen a director level or above, Irish or not, without panty hose. :)

"And for everyone who says, "I'm busy enough in the morning, I can't take the time to put on make up." I say, wake up five minutes earlier."

To freetime --

Some of us choose not to wear makeup because of its toxic effect on our skin. No