First!!!!!!!!!

Happy New Year!!!!!!!!

It really depends on the flight time. Letting a six year old fly alone for two hours wouldn't upset me at all and certainly I would have no qualms letting a ten year old and eight year old fly together. But anything longer than a six hour flight would give me pause.

I won't let my children fly alone until 12, at least. I think it's too big of a risk.

What did your 5 yr old do while you and your husband worked? Wasn't s/he ticked about missing out on a trip to Florida? I would try to be more 'balanced' about the equal treatment of your children.

What exactly were you planning if they ended up in a Jet Blue situation? 10 and 8 too young. Another example of overindulging children. God forbid they have a vacation that isn't a party and God forbid the working parents have to come up with a solution for their kids. If they are old enough to fly, why not let them stay home alone while you work?

I flew alone by the time I was 7 but that was back in the olden days (70s & 80s). I think when kids fly alone you have to pay an extra fee. The airline is responsible for waiting for you until an adult arrives to pick them up. I would probably think nothing of letting an 8 year old and a 10 year old fly from DC to Fla (probably a 2 hour flight) with no connections. As for the 5 year old, I am sure a few days of being an only child was worth missing out on the trip. She will get the much deserved sole attention she has craved his/her whole life. As far as being a working mom, I actually think the kids sometimes are more sheltered than the kids of SAHPs. The reason being they move from one child care situation to another. DD will be dropped off at school through middle school and will wait at after school care till 4:30 each day for Mom to pick her up. I know the world has changed a lot. But I was walking to and from school and at lunch times by second grade. Of course everyone did. Only the geeks were walked by their parent or grandparent. And Lord knows, no one drove their kids on nice days to school. Of course communities were much more pedestrian friendly. And crime was not as common or not as publicized. But I do feel bad that DD will not have the joys of discovering the world on her own terms. Running through the woods, skinning her knees, taking her allowance money to the candy store. It is too bad. We have traded honest discovery for discovery zone. And it is not just because two parents work. It is because of increased media coverage on child crime, no sidewalks, working parents, internet predators etc....

Airlines only let children that age fly alone for a direct flight. And they require that the adult wait at the airport until the flight takes off, in case there are problems on the ground. If there is some kind of emergency or landing at a different airport due to bad weather, I'm not sure what the plan b is.

Our five year old LOVED being alone with us, and getting to be the big kid (and only kid) for a change. While we worked she went to a series of playdates.

Sorry about all the recent tech difficulties on the blog. wpni is trying (hard) to fix them.

For me, it's not so much my work status, but the difference in the world today vs. a LOOONG time ago when I was a child. My independence was (and is) my most valued possession. I remember being allowed to walk alone to school at age 12 and walk alone to the nieghborhood store at about age 8 or 9. The sense if freedom was so empowering to me as a child. But in today's times, I'm not sure I will let my daughter do that. One of my friends lives two blocks from her daughter's elementary school, and isn't sure if, or when, she will let her walk by herself.

http://punditmom1.blogspot.com

There was also a $20 per child fee, on top of the ticket, to fly as an unaccompanied minor. Our kids had to be at least six to fly as unaccompanied minors.

8 & 10 yr old together unsupervised on a plane! NO way. This is a sure way to annoy the heck out of the other passengers who have no way out! I am more concerned about the other passangers confort and sanity than I am allowing my child to feel a bit of independance.

I live a couple of blocks from the elementary school my boys attend, and they are NOT ALLOWED to walk to/from school without an adult accompanying them. No exceptions for the age of the child, closeness to the school, or any other circumstance as far as I can tell. When I was the same age as my older son (9), I was walking/bike riding to and from school every day.

"What did your 5 yr old do while you and your husband worked? Wasn't s/he ticked about missing out on a trip to Florida? I would try to be more 'balanced' about the equal treatment of your children.

Posted by: Fairfax | February 21, 2007 07:21 AM"

Disagree here - kids need to get used to different treatment - age and circumstances dictate treatment sometimes. This is like getting every kid in the family a birthday gift when one kid has a birthday.

Maybe Leslie and her husband thought the 5 year old was too young to travel on a plane - and that is no reason to keep the other 2 at home. Also, how nice to have one on one time with just one kid! The 5 year old probably felt very special.

I would have been worried with the weather and all the cancelled flights about sitting on the tarmac for hours.

I do have a problem with a mother that works 80 hours a week pushing their kids into independent roles because of her work schedule. 80 hours a week - do they even see their kids? Sounds like too much to me.

When we lived in Northern Virginia, we did let our kids walk themselves to school -- at ages 8 and 7. It was about one block away -- and a good neighborhood, with sidewalks and minimal traffic. But you would not believe the grief I got from other parents (and even the principal who was concerned about 'liability aspects' -- apparently no one had ever allowed their children to walk to school before).

Currently we live in a smaller town and our kids have a lot more freedom in terms of roaming the subdivision, knocking on neighbor's doors and asking if Judy can play -- just like we did growing up. I LOVE not having to schedule "playdates".
When we first moved to our neighborhood, our children were ecstatic at the freedom it offered -- out the door first thing every morning to ride bikes, in and out of friend's houses. I love the dynamics of having to work out friendships by themselves in the neighborhood (Bobby's annoying and he cheats but we have to include him or we won't have enough kids to play football, etc.) rather than constantly having moms intervene/interfere and setting everything up. I think it's really healthy for them to have the freedom to work out their differences themselves.

We used to fly overseas a lot with the military and I would see these kids literally being sent to Europe by themselves to visit divorced parents, etc. and lots of times they would be scared and crying. I don't know when I would feel comfortable sending my kids on a plane by themselves -- though my sister does it all the time.

Interesting post. May be a valuable excercise to get the community's view on when kids are "old enough" to do the following tasks/ be left alone to:

my attempt at conventional wisdom:

earliest
year
5 Kindergarden (see Parenting Blog)
6 Sleep over at friend's house
6 Swim without parent w/in arm's reach
8 Ride non-stop w/older sibling
9 Stay at home alone for ten minutes
9 Ride non-stop flight alone
10 sleep away summer camp
11 Stay at home for lengthy time
12 get cell phone
12 Ride bike to school/sports practice
12 Walk to town after school
12 Babysit siblings
13 pierce ears
13 Babysit other kids
16 get driving lessons/drive daylight
16 go on a date
16 get a full time summer job
17 buy condoms/birthcontrol pills
17 buy tobacco
17 drive at night
18 go to war
18 vote
18 get married/have kids
21 drink alcohol (should be 18 IMHO)

Acknowledging every child is different, what do you think?

As a parent, 16-18 looks like hell.

We live in a small town and our kids have always walked to school. As luck would have it, though, the older boy at age 14 got mugged once by a twenty year old delinquent. Much ado, police involved, etc.

The next day, he walked to school again. Parenting is not only about protecting but about training kids to deal with adversity.

On the other side of the coin, a friend once called to ask if it was ok to give my sons a ride home from some afterschool event. That surprised me but she is married to a physician and I guess they are litigation-sensitive.

As to the plane ride, it looks as if you are prosperous enough to have such an option but not prosperous enough to take the time to be with the children on their free day. I am not being critical of your choice, I just think you need to plan ahead a little more. It sounds as though the long weekend kind of snuck up on you.

When we lived in Northern Virginia, we did let our kids walk themselves to school -- at ages 8 and 7. It was about one block away -- and a good neighborhood, with sidewalks and minimal traffic. But you would not believe the grief I got from other parents (and even the principal who was concerned about 'liability aspects' -- apparently no one had ever allowed their children to walk to school before).

Currently we live in a smaller town and our kids have a lot more freedom in terms of roaming the subdivision, knocking on neighbor's doors and asking if Judy can play -- just like we did growing up. I LOVE not having to schedule "playdates".
When we first moved to our neighborhood, our children were ecstatic at the freedom it offered -- out the door first thing every morning to ride bikes, in and out of friend's houses. I love the dynamics of having to work out friendships by themselves in the neighborhood (Bobby's annoying and he cheats but we have to include him or we won't have enough kids to play football, etc.) rather than constantly having moms intervene/interfere and setting everything up. I think it's really healthy for them to have the freedom to work out their differences themselves.

We used to fly overseas a lot with the military and I would see these kids literally being sent to Europe by themselves to visit divorced parents, etc. and lots of times they would be scared and crying. I don't know when I would feel comfortable sending my kids on a plane by themselves -- though my sister does it all the time.

I'm gonna say that personally I don't know that I would trust my children to an organization that has a hard time getting an inanimate object (my bags) to a location safely. I think it might have been better before so many people were flying. With all the layoffs and budget cutting in airlines, I'd just really have a hard time trusting that they would take proper care of my kids. That said, I'm sure the 5 year old was in heaven.

Good for you for letting them fly without parents, Leslie. My stepdaughter flew alone from the time she was 9 from Philadelphia to meet us in Florida almost every Christmas (our visitation didn't start until the day after Christmas). Sometimes she had to change planes. The airlines were great about taking good care of her. When she was 16, she got grounded overnight in DC at Dulles, and you would not believe the security measures they took. It was like they were guarding the Hope Diamond.

I don't believe that the world is any more dangerous than it was when I was growing up 30 years ago. (If someone's got statistics proving me right or wrong, I'd love to see them.) I think it's scarier now because of 24/7 news and because the media makes such a huge deal out of stranger kidnappings and the like. I work hard to balance my fear of things that have almost no chance of happening with my desire to let my children experience independence. Many mothers I know won't let their children play alone in their own backyards, never mind riding their bikes alone or walking to a friends' house.

To Fo3

"As a parent, 16-18 looks like hell."

Yes, it is, do you have any this age yet?

BTW, I started driving fulltime at 15. Legally licensed at that age back in the dark ages.

I don't believe that the world is any more dangerous than it was when I was growing up 30 years ago. (If someone's got statistics proving me right or wrong, I'd love to see them.) I think it's scarier now because of 24/7 news and because the media makes such a huge deal out of stranger kidnappings and the like. I work hard to balance my fear of things that have almost no chance of happening with my desire to let my children experience independence. Many mothers I know won't let their children play alone in their own backyards, never mind riding their bikes alone or walking to a friends' house.

According the Crime and Victimization survey by the US census bureau, crime is actually down. The coverage is up. The internet is a fast tranformer of information (sometimes correct and sometimes false information). I can't believe parents that do not let kids play in a fenced in locked back yard. I can see tiny kids (under 5 because of injury) but 7 and 8 year olds? Good lord, do they expect to be with them every second of the day?

I would say that the working and married status of a parent greatly influences the independence his or her kid has. Both my parents worked and then divorced when I was 12. I had loads of independence. My brother and I were latchkey kids. We spent entire summers at sleep-away camp. We also visited grandparents in Florida during the summers. But my mom would constantly worry. I bet that if she didn't work, we would not have been so independent.

FWIW, sleep-away camp fosters a lot of independence. Kids as young as 8 could go for a week. Teens could stay for the whole summer. Kids have the responsibility of getting to their classes on time but also the free time to explore. They form relationships on their own. I went there for 6 years and then worked there for 4. I credit that time for a lot of my social training (I went to parochial school and moved 5 times before I was 8).

My parents allowed me to basically roam unsupervised across a square mile of territory from age 7 onward. There were some ground rules, of course, but as long as I didn't burn down anything, let the animals out of the fields, etc, I was free to do what I wished. Walking to a small country store a mile away, along two lane country roads, picking up discarded soda bottles for the deposit, was a routine excursion. As long as my parents knew (roughly) where I was going and (roughly) what I was doing, they trusted me to not get into too much trouble.

It's a shame that such freedom can no longer be given children.

Geez, if you don't walk your kids to school you miss out on - 1. showing off your way too big SUV, 2. having something to do in the morning besides signing on to this blog to say you are first, and 3. feeling better than those moms that *choose* to work over staying at home with their kids. People, you are raising a generation of spoiled children completely incapable of dealing with life. Get a life yourself, so your kids will have one too.

Geez, if you don't walk your kids to school you miss out on - 1. showing off your way too big SUV, 2. having something to do in the morning besides signing on to this blog to say you are first, and 3. feeling better than those moms that *choose* to work over staying at home with their kids. People, you are raising a generation of spoiled children completely incapable of dealing with life. Get a life yourself, so your kids will have one too.

I agree with foamgnome. People are more scared/frightened than they should be.

And Fo3: my ages were/are completely different.

earliest year
5 Kindergarden
1 (actually that started as a baby when we shared babysitters...never a problem with any of 4 kids) Sleep over at friend's house
2 (all could swim across pool by 3 or 4) Swim without parent w/in arm's reach
5 Ride non-stop w/older sibling
6 Stay at home alone for ten minutes
5 Ride non-stop flight alone
8 sleep away summer camp
9 Stay at home for lengthy time
----now some major changes---why a cell before high school?
14 get cell phone
6 Ride bike to school/sports practice (but hey, we live in a design-for-livability neighborhood...well worth it)
8 Walk to town after school
10 Babysit siblings
13 pierce ears (no girls)
13 Babysit other kids

And the 16-18 stuff just happens. My 16 year old didn't even want his permit until he was over 16. I had to force him to get his permit...and he could have had it at 15!

And Fred, my kids all traveled internationally many times as youngsters. They know their way around LAX and SFO better than most adults. Thus, they can travel on a plane. My 16 yr old, when 14, even wrangled an upgrade to 1st class the last time he traveled by himself. he's a pro. Not bragging...just amazed.

"I think it's scarier now because of 24/7 news and because the media makes such a huge deal out of stranger kidnappings and the like."

Gavin deBecker agrees with you. His number one recommendation for cutting out needless worry is to stop watching local news. All of it. It's just pointless scaremongering.

'such freedom can no longer be given children'

my children have plenty of freedom. they roam the neighborhood and the woods. it's the mall that I'm afraid of! half the elementary school students here walk without a parent. they need to be given some freedom to learn how to deal with situations. it depends on where you live.

jd

I agree. There are a number of SAHMs who limo their kids back and forth to school for no apparent reason (no after school activities issues here)- there are district school buses. The buses provide door to door service. It does seem that the SAHMs use the taxi service as a big part of their justification to stay home.

Bad example for kids, waste of energy, and giving the finger to the environment.

How the world has changed- when I was in first grade, I walked to school (after that we moved and I took a school bus). The only "protection" my mom (who stayed at home) offered me was to tell me to try and stick with another first grade friend and her brother, who was in third grade and considered old enough to take care of any problems.

I let my kids, 4 and 7, play by themselves in our backyard. I wish I could let my 7-year old walk to her friend's houses but we live on a busy street with no sidewalks. Because of that we also walk her to the bus stop. I think my working does affect this decision. I am home on Fridays and make it a point to walk to the bus stop with my daughter and wait with her and meet the bus in the afternoon. She looks forward to it and it's the only day of the week I can do it. I require the nanny to take her on the other days. I think if I were a SAHM, I might let her go herself because it would not be such a treat for her to have me there. It's very close -- I can see the stop from my house. I could watch her cross the street and then wave goodbye.

I don't know what I would do about flying. My father wants to have my daughter spend a weekend with him in NY. He has proposed flying down, meeting up with us at the airport and then flying back up with her (they can do this on the shuttle). It's an expensive proposition and a lot of trouble for my dad. I have suggested we just wait until she is older but if he really wants to do it I won't say no.

I will say that I've been very surprised at the kids who live close to our school and don't walk. We were disappointed the school wasn't closer and our kids would have to be bussed. It's not an issue of whether the parents come or not; it's that the parents drive the kids. With childhood obesity being so high now, I don't understand this parenting decision. I would support driving on really bad weather days or if there's an afterschool appointment but otherwise I think you are doing your children a disservice not encouraging them to walk.

I once got a call from the school nurse regarding the second boy. For whatever reason, she couldn't reach my wife, who normally fields such calls. He was fifteen at the time.

Nurse, "You're son is sick." Me, "What's wrong with him?".
Nurse, "He's throwing up." Me, "Send him home.".
Nurse, "Can you come get him?" Me, "No, I'm in New York. Let him walk. It's only five blocks." (At this point, I can hear him laughing in the background.)
Nurse, "I'm not allowed to do that." Me, "Then, give him a trash can."

I think she let him nap on her cot until school ended and then he walked home.

I once got a call from the school nurse regarding the second boy. For whatever reason, she couldn't reach my wife, who normally fields such calls. He was fifteen at the time.

Nurse, "Your son is sick." Me, "What's wrong with him?".
Nurse, "He's throwing up." Me, "Send him home.".
Nurse, "Can you come get him?" Me, "No, I'm in New York. Let him walk. It's only five blocks." (At this point, I can hear him laughing in the background.)
Nurse, "I'm not allowed to do that." Me, "Then, give him a trash can."

I think she let him nap on her cot until school ended and then he walked home.

How the world has changed- when I was in first grade, I walked to school (after that we moved and I took a school bus). The only "protection" my mom (who stayed at home) offered me was to tell me to try and stick with another first grade friend and her brother, who was in third grade and considered old enough to take care of any problems.

I let my kids, 4 and 7, play by themselves in our backyard. I wish I could let my 7-year old walk to her friend's houses but we live on a busy street with no sidewalks. Because of that we also walk her to the bus stop. I think my working does affect this decision. I am home on Fridays and make it a point to walk to the bus stop with my daughter and wait with her and meet the bus in the afternoon. She looks forward to it and it's the only day of the week I can do it. I require the nanny to take her on the other days. I think if I were a SAHM, I might let her go herself because it would not be such a treat for her to have me there. It's very close -- I can see the stop from my house. I could watch her cross the street and then wave goodbye.

I don't know what I would do about flying. My father wants to have my daughter spend a weekend with him in NY. He has proposed flying down, meeting up with us at the airport and then flying back up with her (they can do this on the shuttle). It's an expensive proposition and a lot of trouble for my dad. I have suggested we just wait until she is older but if he really wants to do it I won't say no.

I will say that I've been very surprised at the kids who live close to our school and don't walk. We were disappointed the school wasn't closer and our kids would have to be bussed. It's not an issue of whether the parents come or not; it's that the parents drive the kids. With childhood obesity being so high now, I don't understand this parenting decision. I would support driving on really bad weather days or if there's an afterschool appointment but otherwise I think you are doing your children a disservice not encouraging them to walk.

My apologies for the repeat post. There is considerable lag between clicking "Post" and the screen refreshing and I corrected a grammar problem.

Fred -- I was concerned too about the welfare of the other passengers, and my kids were lectured about being polite.

When my husband met the returning flight, one of the passengers took him aside and told him how polite our two kids had been during the flight. I think when unsupervised in public some children behave FAR better than at home. Both of our old kids are very responsible and I'm not surprised that they got compliments from fellow passengers.

I also had told them that if I heard ANY complaints (from travelers or their grandparents) they'd never get this privilege again.

I am amazed by how paranoid the most privileged parents seem. It is the ones who live in the safest neighborhoods who are constantly worrying about their kids being kidnapped or hurt. There are many kids in this country and the world growing up with true danger, every day, that makes our suburban worries seem like nothing.

I'm also amazed that parents don't worry more about the real dangers for kids -- the top three are car accidents, drownings and bike accidents. All preventable to a certain degree, with use of car seats, supervision and helmets. There are only about 100 true stranger kidnappings a year (and this has stayed fairly constant for over 30 years).

Regarding our unnecessary fears: the book "Freakonomics" discusses this in depth. Leslie, your comment on drowning being one of the top reasons for childhood deaths made me think of it. Many parents are super vigilant about not letting their children go to a house where there are guns, but FAR, FAR more children die in swimming pools each year than by gunshot wounds. I'm pretty sure I've recommended "Freakonomics" before on this blog, but I'm going to do it again. It's just fascinating reading.

Ditto on Freakonomics-however repetitive the writing is, the concepts are intriquing.

cell phone at 11

Now that DS gats dropped at various activities, some walking distance some not, and we have the myriad of other things going on we like being able to reach him on the phone to appraise him of our ETA, carpool changes etc. He also can let us know if he is going to another kids house after school, or has arranged a ride with a team-mate to get home from practice. There are no payphones around at all anymore so that is no longer an option. He is very responsible about the phone and since we are in network the time is shared among all handsets.

Very useful on vacation and for summer camp I might add.

Totally depends on the kid though I see no problem with sending an 8 and 10 y.o. on a 2 hour direct flight without parents. I'm also surprised by the comment regarding the other passengers. I bet the kids were completely well-behaved in large part because they KNEW it was a big responsibility being given to them. I think kids generally are smarter and better behaved than people here give them credit for. And I bet the other passengers were probably really nice. There is a BIG difference though between a 2 hour flight and a 6 hour flight. At those ages, I'd probably stick to less than 3 hour flights. Otherwise, what really is the big deal?

I think I was 7 the first time I flew alone to visit my grandparents -- unfortunately it was also the only time I ever had air sickness -- all over the nice lady sitting next to me! (Who the airline gave a free bottle of wine). The only qualm I'd have about unaccompanied minor is that the flight attendants have more duties post 9-11 than they did when I was a kid and there seem to be less of them.

I have often thought that we worry more because we hear more about the worst incidents. Polly Klaas, the girl in Utah were all national news -- 30 years ago would they have been?

Off topic to NC lawyer- Yes, it is nice to see royal blue fans step away from the ledge... :-)

My husband and I have thought about these same issues already even though our kids are still years away by MO County standards to be left alone. We both had very independent childhoods, taking public transport by ourselves to get to school by ages 10 and 11. But I think the times have really changed -- I am very spooked by school bus accidents, all these news reporting about predators lurking around our schools and playgrounds, and violence in schools, even in the most suburban environments. I think that we would like to expose our children to the world but prefere to do it as a family. That's the plan, let's see what life has in store for us..

My husband and I have thought about these same issues already even though our kids are still years away by MO County standards to be left alone. We both had very independent childhoods, taking public transport by ourselves to get to school by ages 10 and 11. But I think the times have really changed -- I am very spooked by school bus accidents, all these news reporting about predators lurking around our schools and playgrounds, and violence in schools, even in the most suburban environments. I think that we would like to expose our children to the world but prefere to do it as a family. That's the plan, let's see what life has in store for us..

To Fo3: So the kid can't swim outside of arm's reach until 6 or stay home alone for 10 MINUTES until 9, but you're going to buy birth control for the kid at 17 and encourage smoking a year before its legal??
Small kids need to get a taste of independence, and your role as parent doesn't disappear when the kid becomes a teenager. Teenagers need more guidance and protection re sex and drugs than grade-school aged kids need protection from a 10 minute unattended house.

It depends on the kid, but I stayed home alone for 10 - 30 minutes with two younger siblings by the time I was 7. I knew how to call the neighbors or 911, and my mom would let a neighbor know she was running out. And we were fine to continue watching cartoons or coloring until my mom got back from the store. Easier for everyone.

It would seem to me that the appropriate age for letting a child fly alone would have a lot to do with how much flying they'd done before with family. Admittedly the first time I flew alone I was 14, pretty alert, and had a nonstop flight with family on both ends, but I'd flown internationally with my family before that and airports weren't a scary environment. I think I'd be okay with my children flying alone for a good reason as soon as the airline would take them and I was confident that they understood what was going on around them in the airport and on the flight so they'd know who to go to if the airline were to drop the ball.

When I was a kid (born in 55) we walked everywhere by ourselves, including K-6. Granted it was only 3 blocks. We came home at lunch time so it was two round trips. We didn't have school buses so we also had to walk to JR high and SR high. Each was two miles away. And that was in the good old days when girls couldn't wear pants so we had to wear the ugly ski pants and then take them off when we arrived. Of course we didn't have lockers so we had to carry everything with us all day. My mother knew how long it took us to get home and if we weren't there within 15 mins or so she was in the car looking for us (totally embarassing). She wasn't afraid anything had happened - she just wanted us home because we had newspapers to deliver.
We also went to the park and played baseball all day long, took the bus or walked downtown (this was in CT) and went to a movie and then out for pizza all alone by the age of 10 or 12.

"I'm also surprised by the comment regarding the other passengers..."

In my travels, I have run across unaccompanied children who did raise heck on flights. An 8 and a 10 together still seem like trouble waiting to happen. A 14 yr old is a different case, much more mature on the average.

I would think that children should have experience air travel at least once before placing them on a plane by themselves. A previous poster noted children being scared and crying on flights. I do not have concerns about safety because as Leslie points out, the airline personnel have very strict SOP's that must be followed concerning unaccompanied trips.

To Fo3:
You raise a good point there. It is kind of funny considering the legislation being proposed in VA to vaccinate against cervical cancer at age 9 -- when most kids that age will never even have been to the grocery store by themselves. Seems kind of illogical, doesn't it?

I've met numerous kids by themselves on planes and they're always fine. It amazing how well behaved children are away from their parents. If a kid has mission and feels empowered, they act the part. Sometimes I wonder if the less empowered a child is, the more they act out, and the further less empowered they become. Seems like a vicious circle.

As for getting lost, since I was small I was in charge of getting my mom through the airport, to the train, through the underground, and onto the ferry. She has an awful sense of direction.

We live 2 miles from our elementary school, too far to walk. But we and most parents drive our elementary age kids in the morning because the schoolbus schedule is ridiculous. For an 8 am school start the bus picks up before 6:20 am, to nominally arrive at school at 7 am (actually much earlier because most of the schoolbuses pull in nearly empty at our school; basically parents only use them if they have no car/no way to transport their kids themselves). Until our newest principal, those bus kids had to sit, mixed pre-K-5th grade ages, in the cafeteria with little supervision til they were released to go to classrooms at 7:45. Now at least there is better supervision/a play-in-the-gym supervised option in the morning. But we leave home at 7:45 to drop our kids at 7:55, saving our kids 1 1/2 hours of either sleep or evening family time, depending on how you look at it. Many poor/international graduate student families don't have the option of transporting their kids, and some of these kids are so tired and whiny from having to get up so early, to catch such an early schoolbus and still have some evening time with parents, it's very sad. I think the county school system shows a profound disrespect for young children's time and day-to-day experience by letting the children pay with wasted time and forced early risings for the school system's inability to reasonably schedule a fleet of buses. This is Dekalb county, one of the largest in Georgia with millions of residents --- they recycle the schoolbus fleet for middle and high school routes but you'd think they'd be smarter than schedule the 3 types of schools' start times within a 30 minute window, 8, 8:10, 8:30 in our area, and then just keep backing up delivery of the first group (elementary) so that they can get the last group to school on time.

Btw, the schoolbus is heavily used in the afternoon, when it picks up at dismissal time and returns the kids pretty directly home (also many kids either stay in-school or ride vans to an on-campus aftercare program, as mine do). We also have a large contingent of walker in the immediate neighborhood --- though walkers pool in the cafeteria til signed out by a parent or parent-listed adult.

So in this case parents are just meeting their kids' needs when the school system's bureaucracy fails to. We actually used 2 "snow days" last year - it's rare for us to use our snow days - when our governor cancelled school for the next 2 days (after the end of the school day, with no notice to parents) for an alleged fuel shortage. (He urged the counties to close, and they did.) We'd sure save more fuel on a day-to-day basis if just our county ran their buses at a time parents were willing to send their kids . . . (It may be that other/poorer areas in the county prefer the extremely early buses, if they leave home early on long commutes, it's enforced but free and often shoddy morning childcare. But in our area the parents pretty uniformly hate them.)

So how are the bus scheduling areas near DC and elsewhere?

I should clarify - I don't think it is a good idea for young children who have NEVER flown before to fly alone. I'm just assuming that Leslie wouldn't do that to her kids - seems like simple common sense to me. But for children who have flown before, and whose parents thing they have the maturity to do it, then a short flight in my opinion is no big deal. I tend to agree with running as well. I think the less empowered a child feels, the more they act out. As the experts say - negative attention is better than no attention at all.

I think there's a connection between working and giving more independence- because the parents have to.

First, I was horrified at the mom Leslie mentioned who works 80 hrs/week. I really don't understand the point in having kids if one works 80 hrs/week. Very strange.

Anyway...I expect more from my daughter now that I'm working. Granted, she keeps getting older and therefore, can do a lot more for herself, but I NEED her to be more independent. She needs to do the bathroom routine by herself as I'm making lunches and getting dressed myself, etc..

We live in the city, about 3 blocks from where she'll go to elementary school. I think I'll let her walk with a friend or 2 at age 8. My husband would probably follow her, though :) Definitely not alone. I think my mom walked my little brother and I until we were 10.

I still have my SAHM mentality, though, and am a little more protective of her than my always- been- a- working- mom counterparts.
I think it goes along with the fact that once I had her, I knew I had to stay home with her for at least a few years. Some moms don't get that feeling (I'm not saying it's bad one way or the other)
It's just my personality (and my husband says it's because she's a girl as well)

How about that as an offshoot topic- do you treat your boys and girls differently regarding independence/being protective?

Are there any laws on the books about the age you can leave a child alone and not be considered "negligent"? I know in one case around here (NYC area), a mother left her kids--the oldest was 8 I think--and a fire broke out. She was held criminally negligent. If the oldest was 13, I'm guessing that wouldn't be the case. Does anyone know?

i don't think it is illogical to vaccinate against cervical cancer at age 9. Kids are raped at that age and even lower. And pedophiles aren't likely to concern themselves with condoms! I think the vaccination should be given as soon as it is safe and effective. I'm sure it doesn't happen often, but the vaccination will work not just to cover those years when she is vulnerable to pedophiles, but also when she is older and even of age to give consent-- so why not? IT's not like cervical cancer fears are the only reason kids aren't having sex-- lots of other STDs out there that can harm them, plus I'd like to think that there is still some sense of morality and common sense in our youth today!

I am from a family that travels a great deal, so I flew for the first time (with my grandparents - parents stayed at home for a little child-less "vacation" time) at 8 weeks, and then internationally for the first time (with parents) at 2 yo. My sister, cousins and I flew by ourselves A LOT (to visit grandparents) from the time we were about 8. (This was in the mid to late 1990s.) We used to love connecting through Dallas because the unaccompanied minors got to ride through the terminal on a baggage cart instead of having to walk (it is a BIG airport).

Because both of my parents worked, my sister and I loved to be able to visit my grandparents for long weekends, spring break, summer vacations (we HATED those summer day camps we usually had to attend). As an adult, I truly value all of the travel experience I had as a child - unlike many of my more sheltered friends, I have no problem booking flights, flying internationally by myself, buying subway tickets in different cities, reading maps, finding transportation and lodging - generally knowing how to take care of myself in a variety of situations. I cannot believe how scared some people are of these simple tasks. I completely understand the desire to protect your children as much as possible, but I also worry a great deal that many of today's children will be too sheltered and entitled to survive as tomorrow's adults.

I know that I have said this before on this blog, but my mother asked me when I was about 16 what I thought a parent's most important job was. "To love their children?" I asked. "No," she said, "it is to teach them to responsible and independent adults." I think this is the best advice - and the best gift - I have ever received from my parents.

I grew up in Manhattan in the 70's and 80's with two full-time working parents. I went to and from school by myself starting in about second grade - this consisted of taking two busses and then walking 4 blocks. The thing is, a lot of kids did that and no one thought anything of it. I was also allowed to go to stores or to friends's houses in the neighborhood by myself, and again, this was the norm. I began babysitting at age 11 - in big 5 story brownstones, all by myself!

Now I live in the DC burbs and am not sure if I would let my kids walk to the elementary school a few blocks away by themselves. My main concern is traffic, it scares me to death. I don't trust drivers on the roads to let my kids walk through the light. Otherwise, I hope my children (now age 3 and in utero) grow up to be as independent and street smart as I was at a young age. The independence I was given has helped me throughout my life and am grateful to my parents for the trust they put in me.

I am from a family that travels a great deal, so I flew for the first time (with my grandparents - parents stayed at home for a little child-less "vacation" time) at 8 weeks, and then internationally for the first time (with parents) at 2 yo. My sister, cousins and I flew by ourselves A LOT (to visit grandparents) from the time we were about 8. (This was in the mid to late 1990s.) We used to love connecting through Dallas because the unaccompanied minors got to ride through the terminal on a baggage cart instead of having to walk (it is a BIG airport).

Because both of my parents worked, my sister and I loved to be able to visit my grandparents for long weekends, spring break, summer vacations (we HATED those summer day camps we usually had to attend). As an adult, I truly value all of the travel experience I had as a child - unlike many of my more sheltered friends, I have no problem booking flights, flying internationally by myself, buying subway tickets in different cities, reading maps, finding transportation and lodging - generally knowing how to take care of myself in a variety of situations. I cannot believe how scared some people are of these simple tasks. I completely understand the desire to protect your children as much as possible, but I also worry a great deal that many of today's children will be too sheltered and entitled to survive as tomorrow's adults.

I know that I have said this before on this blog, but my mother asked me when I was about 16 what I thought a parent's most important job was. "To love their children?" I asked. "No," she said, "it is to teach them to responsible and independent adults." I think this is the best advice - and the best gift - I have ever received from my parents.

I began taking the metrobus by myself (short ride from home to school in NW DC) when I was in sixth grade. I was also allowed to walk or take the bus to meet my friends at the movies or the ice cream parlor. By the time I was 14, I was pretty independent and rarely relied on my parents for transportation. But we also lived in an urban area that was pretty accessible to walkers and metro riders. Most of my friends had similar privileges. I flew by myself from DC to Boston, and took a connecting flight to Cape Cod, when I was 14. It was very exciting and made me feel really grown up. And for the most part, I think I behaved very much like an adult when riding the bus by myself. But I do remember some incidents on the bus, when I was with a bunch of other kids, when we were loud and obnoxious and I am sure we disturbed other passengers.

I now live in suburbia and I have no idea whether I would let my son have the same independence I had. He is only 7, but I drive him everywhere and still try to make him hold my hand when we are crossing the street (although he is rebelling against that now). I hope I am confident enough to let him spread his little wings and do things by himself. Right now, he does play with his neighborhood buddies in the common area behind our house, and I just keep an eye on him through the window. In time, I think I will give him more independence. I think it is a wonderful gift to give a child.

Happy Ash Wednesday everybody! today, I get to upgrade my annoying son from 9 to 10 years old. Poor kid though, we won't be able to celebrate his birthday until the 2nd week of March. On a good note, looks like only 6 more years till I get a fishin' buddy.

In 7 months my 4 year old will be going with annoying son to kindergarten. Right now, the 4 year old is way too far out of control to send him walking. I do have this suspician though, that a situation will arise that will eventually force the event.

Growing up in my house, the rule was to be home when the streetlights came on in the summer. Often my brother and I would bring home a catch of fish with us and fry them up for dinner.

At 13, I woke up every morning a little after 4:00 am to deliver the Washington Post before walking to school. Not once did my parents ever help me out with it. When I sprained my ankle, I had to hop from house to house to deliver the paper. My mother will never live it down.

dotted, I'm 100% with your revised age list, and I completely agree with foamgnome's and Product of a Working Mother's comments about the increased awareness of the oddball stranger crime.

In terms of solo air travel, our son is 11 and a seasoned traveler. We haven't had occasion to consider sending him anywhere by himself, but if the occasion arose, I'd support it at this point, subject to the comments other reasonable folks have made about the length of the flight and the likelihood of a Jet Blue incident (watch those weather reports).

This brings me to my relocation rant, though. We view our primary job as raising kids that, based on our values and theirs as they develop their own, have the life skills, independence, and confidence to make good decisions about life as it comes at them. Essential to that goal is developing the ability to accurately assess risk and deal with fear. You can't learn to deal with fear in increasing amounts and intensity if you're always kept physically safe by a hovering parent. The safest place for kids to be is on the couch in your living room watching tv. Is that desirable? He**, no. To that end, providing opportunities for independence was a driving force in our choices about where to live. We chose the city in which we live, in large part, because it was an environment that emphasized friendliness, neighborliness and outdoor sports and hobbies. We have not yet purchased a home that we really liked. In each instance, we purchased access to a neighborhood in which we thought our kids would thrive. Each neighborhood has been ethnically diverse, non-gated, safe, and in immediate proximity to either a large park or a creek, e.g., some sort of outdoors to explore, get bitten by a snake and/or twist an ankle. We encourage our kids to get and out explore the neighborhood, including the 120 acre park that's a short walk from the house. We teach them the difference between a venomous and non-venomous snake. We made sure they could swim as early as possible and emphasize respect for water and smart choices around bodies of water. We are not interested in raising kids that have to have every outdoor activity planned for them, or spend all their free time playing video games or watching tv.

Our parenting preference for encouraging independence hasn't a jot to to with our employment, and everything to do with what we think our job is as parents. Sure, something bad could happen, but we are not willing to raise them living in a bubble to prevent the once per year Polly Klaas tragedy. If we do, how will they accurately analyze risk when they get older and make smart risk-taking decisions? Yes, I too walked to and from school and to the grocery store and pharmacy when I was 7, but it's not about me, it's about what we want for our kids.

When my kids turned 12, they started going to routine doctor and dentist appointments by themselves. They handled the logistics of getting to the doctors' offices and the appointments very well.

My SAHM and a lot of other neighborhood mothers did the same thing their children.
Our moms handed us appointment card reminders in the morning before school and we went to the doctor after school by ourselves. All of this was done on foot - no limos.

"My friend Jen, who works 80 hours a week, feels she has to let go and give her kids' extra independence since she's not there to micromanage them."

80 hours a week! Leslie, your friend needs some balance.

Nice touch with the word micromanage by the way. That way we know working 80 hours a week isn't ignoring you kids, it's granting them independence!

When I was around 8-10 I flew the Eastern shuttle to La Guardia to visit cousins up there. The first time I went I was accompanied by my cousin, and then I was driven back by my parents. But it is only an hour flight and the stewardesses took care of me.

My dd is occasionally a latchkey kid (she is almost 11), and since 4th grade she is capable of getting herself up, dressed and out the door to the busstop. Right now she is having some difficulty getting up so I have been driving her to school (my work is more flexible than it had been).

My parents were helicopter parents before that was a phrase and I refuse to do that with my dd.

Speaking of helicopter parents,I work with a woman who still takes her college-aged kids to all of their doctor/dentists appointments. For some reason, this drives me nuts!

cc

I know a woman who schedules & takes her HUSBAND to all of his routine doctor visits!!!!

8 & 10 yr old together unsupervised on a plane! NO way. This is a sure way to annoy the heck out of the other passengers who have no way out! I am more concerned about the other passangers confort and sanity than I am allowing my child to feel a bit of independance.

----------

My experiences as a childless person run totally contrary to this. I have yet to see a kid given this kind of freedom abuse it. I know it is unfair to parents, but it seems like children very frequently behave better when they are unattended or with other adults. I figure in part it is because they are smart enough not to test boundaries when there is not a parent there to take care of them? Any one else notice the same thing? have a theory on why?

cc, you've hit a nerve. How do you teach your kids either to take responsibility for their choices about their bodies, including whether to avoid drugs, including alcohol, having sex, and staying fit, or to make decisions based on information provided by medical personnel, if at some point during the teen years, you don't encourage them to go to the doctor by themselves, listen to and analyze the advice given, and either implement it or get a second opinion? If they can drive to a sports event by themselves, they can drive themselves to the dentist.

And it was also heavenly for my husband and I to...
Should read:
And it was also heavenly for my husband and ME to...

Leslie needs a new proofreader.

to Fred: I notice that pattern all the time with my cousin's twins. They spent about 3.5 hours with us on Sunday afternoon primarily entertaining themselves, being read to, and generally being mellow and listening. (they are 5). It seemed the moment their mom and grandfather walked in they were suddenly little performers, looking to test limits.

Of the parents who are comfortable with seasoned kid travelers flying alone, is anyone uncomfortable that, in the unlikely event of a plane malfunction or terrorist act, their kids would be alone on the plane for their last moments? Or is the likelihood of such an event sufficiently low that the voice of reason in your head dismisses it?

I took my first flight when I was sixteen. It wasn't a direct flight, but as luck would have it, my Dad had a business trip that enabled him to accompany me on the first leg and see me off on the second leg. I really enjoyed the flight with him and it was years before it dawned on me that he'd probably ginned up the "business trip" to accompany me without insulting my sense of independence.

SAHMBacktowork-

What a great point on the difference between girls and boys!

I have 2 girls and am much more aware of limits than friends with boys- I think gender plays a huge role. Boys get away with much more as far as bad behavior (at all ages), extending out through life. Sex and drinking just doesn't seem as big a deal to parents of boys- yet get parents of girls together and sex is the worst topic EVER.
My husband is already ready to stroke out at the thought of someone touching our girls.

We let our girls play in dirt, they play soccer and take karate, we don't have barbies- they love trucks and planes, i.e. "boy" things. They also love to cook and play w/ their babies.

Where we draw the line on being "like a boy" is behavior. By and large, boys can get away with murder. I'm always horrified by the aggression and blatant disrespect boys can get away with. That "boys will be boys" mentality really gets to me.

Boys have a harder and harder time in school and have more behavior problems than girls do. I wonder when parents of boys will start raising them the way we're supposed to raise girls?? To listen, respect, not runand climb when it's not appropriate, to have table manners, to not hit?

We're doing boys a HUGE disservice by allowing base behavior.

What does everyone think?

I grew up in the Midwest and my children have much less freedom than I did. I'd go off on my bike for many a summer afternoon, and as long as I was home for dinner nobody thought anything about it.

Some of it is traffic. With the roads and drivers (even bus drivers!) the way they are you can't let a kid out until they are old enough to be afraid for their lives.

My sons didn't get their drivers' licenses until they were 17, almost 18. I grew up in a farm state and had a provisional license at 14. Oh the fun you can have with a car!

I think that trip to Florida was probably fun for them. Often times squabbling sibs will toe the line when they are alone. I'd certainly sent them off with books, crayons, something they've picked out to amuse themselves AND some snacks because you can't count on an airline to feed you these days. I'm also inclined to send traveling children off with cash, which can get a person out of many a jam.

We're a high-travel family so going on a plane isn't something new to my kids. If your children hadn't flown before then sending off alone would probably be a different thing.

It sounds like a nice break, which is something we all need sometimes.

As a school nurse I had to laugh a little at the Dad who wanted his child to walk home after an episode of vomiting. In the defense of school personnel we can't release children to walk home alone during the school day. It just is not safe. If I had a child that had been vomiting at school the principal would drive him or her home after school if transportation was not available. There should be an emergency form filed at school with alternates, friends or neighbors that might be able to help out.

My parents gave us the run of the neighborhood from the time we were pretty small (probably when I was 5ish, but I have a brother four years older who usually looked out for me). I have to give them (and most of my friends' parents) credit for not freaking out when one of my friends was murdered walking to school in ninth grade. (See http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A48342-2004Jul13.html - scroll down to the part about the 14-year-old.) They taught me that I should use common sense, but that I couldn't let the bad things that might happen dictate how I live my life.

FutureMom, I'm very sorry about your friend. Her poor parents.

Great topic today!!! I don't have experience in this since I am not a parent, but I remember flying to and from the Dominican Republic by myself when I was 8. My parents used to send me there to spend the summer with my grandparents. I think that flying is exciting to most children, and doing it without your parents adds another level of excitement....at least it did prior to all the changes at the airports.

Boys have a harder and harder time in school and have more behavior problems than girls do. I wonder when parents of boys will start raising them the way we're supposed to raise girls?? To listen, respect, not runand climb when it's not appropriate, to have table manners, to not hit?

We're doing boys a HUGE disservice by allowing base behavior.

What does everyone think?

Posted by: to SAHM | February 21, 2007 10:32 AM

I think you're making a great number of gross generalizations about boys and parents of boys. The same parents who raise well-mannered girls tend to raise well-mannered boys. Well-mannered is not the same as thoughtlessly compliant automoton. Producing those, of either sex, should not be the goal of any parent.

"Of the parents who are comfortable with seasoned kid travelers flying alone, is anyone uncomfortable that, in the unlikely event of a plane malfunction or terrorist act, their kids would be alone on the plane for their last moments? Or is the likelihood of such an event sufficiently low that the voice of reason in your head dismisses it?"

Nope - personally think it is a bad idea to handicap your kids with your own illogical fears.

I willingly concede that I am overprotective regarding my daughter's "independence." I sweat that she has a three-minute walk from the bus stop to the house after school (she has supervision once she is home). I live in one of the most exclusive zip codes in the city of Phoenix. I checked the sex offender registry before I moved into my house...none in my zip code. But I also know that crimes against children do not necessarily stay outisde of "good" neighborhoods. Elizabeth Smart, JonBenet Ramsey and Danielle Van Damme all lived in wealthy neighborhoods, and all three girls were kidnapped from their bedrooms.

I grew up in Hollywood, Florida. Just after my 16th birthday, a local boy was kidnapped from the mall where I worked while I was in high school. That boy was Adam Walsh. It left a lasting impression on me. Also, in my current professional position, I work on law enforcement issues, so I am frequently working with police officers who have worked crimes against children cases. I will be working with stakeholders to implement provisions of the Adam Walsh Child Safety and Protection Act within the state.

Leslie, I beg to differ with your statistics regarding "only 100 kidnappings per year are truly stranger kidnappings." And even so, how do you tell your child "I'm sorry" if they are kidnapped and sexually assaulted? Also, take into account that often the danger to children isn't from strangers--it's from neighbors, friends of friends...people who are loosely acquainted with the vicitms.

According to the United States Department of Justice, Office of Juvenile Justice Delinquency Prevention Juvenile Justice Bulletin, June 2000, kidnapping makes up less than 2 percent of all violent crimes against juveniles reported to police.

Based on the identity of the perpetrator, there are three distinct types of kidnapping: kidnapping by a relative of the victim or "family kidnapping" (49 percent), kidnapping by an acquaintance of the victim or "acquaintance kidnapping" (27 percent), and kidnapping by a stranger to the victim or "stranger kidnapping" (24 percent).

I am by nature risk averse. I would not put my child on a flight alone before she was in high school (probably 15 or 16). In my mind, the most dangerous place to lose a child is in an airport. That child could literally end up anywhere in the world...

I plan to let my 8 year old fly across the country this summer, where he'll be met by his grandparents. Airlines have special procedures - I get to see him to the gate and on the plane and wait until it takes off; his grandparents get to meet the plane at the gate and have to show ID and sign something when they pick him up.

He has flown with me many, many times and knows how to behave.

I've gone over issue after issue in my mind and honestly I can't identify a single serious risk in doing this. Could he end up on a plane for 10 hours? I suppose there's a one-in-a-million chance, but it wouldn't kill him if he did. Could there be a hijacking? Yes, but the chances are even less, and I'm not going to live my life in fear of something that unlikely. The only "legitemate" risk that the many naysayers I've talked to have brought up is him being harassed by another passenger. (Apparently this happened to a girl travelling alone on Southwest?) I'll talk to him ahead of time about what to do if a passenger is bothering him or making him uncomfortable in any way, and trust the flight attendant to handle it.

I honestly think people obsess about how dangerous the world is today when, looking objectively, the dangers they are worrying about are tiny.

I've been reading some of these comments, and am quite amazed at the lack of freedom some of these parents are giving their kids. I really feel that it is unfair to the child, and in the long run robs them of opprtunities to grow and gain self esteem in themselves and their abilities. Kids don't learn self esteem from adults always telling them "good job" for everything they do or giving them a throphy whether they win or lose the soccer game, but by having the freedom and space to take a chances, explore the world on their own terms and do things by themselves instead of being micromanaged.

The culture of fear in today's society has made parents so anxious and really robbed children of many of the joys of childhood. I hope that today's parents can begin to see this and give their children more freedom for the child's sake.

Welcome home, KLB SS MD. Hope you had a glorious vacation! Forgive me for plagiarizing from your post above, but it's just that you said some things so well that I can't restate them any better to describe my own case:

"When I was a kid we [also] walked everywhere by ourselves, including K-6. Granted it was only [6] blocks..."

If any of our classmates had received a ride from a parent on a regular basis, they would have been mocked mercilessly by the others for being "babies." Beside our parents' individual efforts, our school system screened the movie "The Dangerous Stranger" at an assembly at the start of each year, to teach us how to recognize common come-ons from strangers, techniques for ignoring them, and not to be afraid to report these people. Of course there were more SAHMs 'way back then, so every block had a "block mother" to whose house we could run if we felt endangered (situation never arose for me, though it was comforting to know that someone trustworthy was only a few hundred yards away all along the route). We also had "traffic boys," troupes of 5th- and 6th-graders with uniform cardigans, caps and STOP signs on long poles, who manned (as it were!) the busiest intersections within a 3 block radius of our elementary school, so that we could cross dangerous streets safely. (BTW, girls wore caps in our school colors, and served as hall monitors between periods and playground monitors during recesses).

By junior high, we were deemed mature enough to cross all streets by ourselves; in high school, those who lived too far to walk used ID cards to ride the public transit buses for a mere dime. There was no school parking lot, and our high school was smack in the middle of downtown, so there were no unmetered parking spaces available if a student did want to drive (not exactly feasible to run out to feed a meter between classes).

Quoting from KLB again, "My mother knew how long it took us to get home and if [I wasn't] there within 15 mins or so..." she too started to become concerned. If I knew in advance I'd be late coming home, I was expected to phone her. If I received a spur-of-the-moment after-school play invitation, I was to phone as soon as I arrived at the playmate's house, to check in with my mom.

Like KLB, "We also went to the park and played [on the streets] all day long, took the bus or walked downtown...and went to a movie and then out for pizza all alone by the age of... 12." I started taking the public transit bus around town unaccompanied at age 10, although I'd been riding with my mother all my life, so it was no big deal. We also went to the public library unaccompanied, where we were expected to behave ourselves (unlike that recent news report out of NJ, where they've decided to shut their library during the immediate after-school hours because of bad behavior). We also roller-skated all over creation -- though I suppose our parents figured that potential molesters would find it physically almost impossible to try snatching us as we whirred by so fast!

Curiously, whenever by happenstance I've been seated on a plane beside a child (or children) of roughly the ages of Leslie's older two, I've found them to be generally polite and responsible (and definitely preferable to some adults!). Sometimes a parent is seated nearby with the youngest one(s), other times the child(ren) is/are unescorted. Flight attendants tend to pay additional attention to unaccompanied children, which tends to keep them well-behaved. Plus, as someone noted above, most likely the parents have made their behavioral expectations very, very clear to the child(ren) before the trip.

I agree with several posters who've already suggested that a child probably shouldn't take a first-ever flight without a parent, or other trusted close adult relative, in case of anxiety. My own parents refused to fly, so perforce my first flight had to be without them. Of course, by then the catlady was no longer a kitten! I was headed to a big college football weekend with friends whom they trusted, all of whom had flown before alone going to and from college. Both flights were uneventful, and our team lost (badly) so we were pretty subdued on the flight home, anyhow.

I am all for kids being well-mannered, but I also don't think that kids of any gender should be taught to be blindly compliant to all authority. I think all kids should be allowed to politely question authority, express themselves, articulate different ideas, etc. I also think that sadly, we let boys do this to a greater degree than girls. Girls are praised for being nice, for listening, for having good manners. And when they behave a little assertively, they are chided for not being ladylike. Boys are praised for expressing new ideas, asserting themselves, doing things on their own. And when they step out of line, their behavior is tolerated to a greater degree than girls. I think that instead of raising our boys like we raise our girls, we should raise our girls like we raise our boys, and give them more latitude to express themselves and assert themselves. Of course, I am not advocating throwing manners away. But I am not that impressed by the ladylike passivity that we find attractive in girls.

On another note, my son has just discovered the joys of reading the Captain Underpants book series. Talk about potty humor and boys run amuck. At first, I was appalled, but I decided to read some of the books to get a sense of what it is that appeals to my son, and I find the books to be hilarious, fun, and well-written, but definitely not well-mannered.

Father of 4: Happy birthday to annoying son! Looks like he and I share a b-day (along with my stepbrother -- makes for a fun family day).

NCLawyer: Your question about the plane crash is the loop that runs through my head whenever I think about it. I am terrified of flying, moreso since 9/11. And if something like that is going to happen, I feel job no. 1 is to be there with my kids to provide whatever comfort I can.

But I also know I can't let my own irrational fears limit my kids' lives and experiences. I work extremely hard not to inflict my own issues on my daughter -- whether it's flying or weight or broccoli. My most important job is to keep my kids safe. But my second most important job is to give them the freedom to spread their wings and grow into responsible, capable adults. Which means sometimes letting them go, even when it scares the bejeebers out of me (when I know that my own fear is irrational).

I'm thinking about this a lot, as my daughter is 5 -- the same age when I first flew alone on a plane at 5, out of necessity (my mom couldn't afford two $400 tickets -- in 1971 money -- so it was either go by myself or not see Granny). There id no way on God's green earth I would put my daughter alone on a plane now -- and luckily, we are in a better financial position and can afford to fly with her to the grandparents. But when do I let her walk to grandma's alone (1 block, crossing a street with a stopsign)? Walk to the library (1/4 mile)? Go ride her bike around the neighborhood by herself? Walk to school (1/2 mile)?

When I think of sending her out alone, I think of all the bad things that happened to me in my too-much independence -- the older girls who jumped me on the way home from school at 7; the guy who tried to steal my purse on my way home from the orthodontist; the jerk in a pickup who thought it would be funny to smack my rear as I was riding my bike, sending me over the handlebars into a ditch; the perv who decided to start stroking my leg on a busride to my dad's when he thought I was asleep.

I so desperately want to protect my daughter from all of those bad things. But then I realize that I actually handled all of those situations, and that I was proud of the way I handled them (tie between throwing my hot chocolate on the pursesnatcher and wrestling my purse away from him and smashing the perv's hand with my skateboard -- in my "sleep," of course). Dealing with those kinds of problems showed me that I was more capable and competent than I thought. So even if I were able to shield my daughter from all the bad things, trying to do so would be a tremendous disservice to her.

But she's still not dating until she's 30. :-)

Just to clarify my comments on children flying alone:

1. If the child has never flown before, I would not recommend it.

2. If a child is 13 or above, I have no particular objection.

3. If a child is younger than 13, a parent should think about how independent the child is in general, think about how sensitive the child is to loud and strange noises and lots of people in a crowded space and about the child's general level of maturity.

4. I have no issue with the general safety of flying and I know that the airlines have strong procedures for the safe transit of unaccompanied minors.

5. In fact, my #3 has flown by herself when she was 10.

But I still have reservations concerning two or more children flying when none of them is not yet "babysitting" age.

I took my first solo flight at age 8 (Miami to chicago, not a short flight), and had no problems. By the time I was 12, I begged my parents not to put me on the unaccompanied minor list, as I thought all the supervision was too annoying and I could navigate the airport by myself. At 17, my best friend and I went to London by ourselves for spring break.

By 9, we had the run of the neighborhood with our bikes, and made fun of the kids with the crazy mom who wouldn't even let them play in the front yard. I remember fighting with my parents at age 10 that they wouldn't let me babysit other kids (I'm been babysitting for my sister for some time by then).

How can you teach your kids to be responsible if you never give them any opportunities to be? My parents were able to trust me at 17 to travel internationally alone because they knew that I'd handled all my other responsibilities so well (including saving the money to go), and, more importantly, I was able to trust myself that I could do it because I'd had so much responsibility before. The kids I knew in college who had been totally cradled before they got there had meltdowns or went crazy when suddenly given such freedom.

on another note, when I was in middle school, I got sick one day, the nurse called my mother to come get me, and my mother told the nurse to let me walk home. Which I did, and everything was fine. I was actually home sooner than if i'd waited for my mother to leave work and come get me and drive me home, and I certainly didn't need her home to take care of me just because I'd thrown up. All around, not a huge deal (although the school did think my mother was weird, but they already thought that :)

Everyone just needs to lighten up a little and let their kids grow up and take responsibility for themselves.

"Of the parents who are comfortable with seasoned kid travelers flying alone, is anyone uncomfortable that, in the unlikely event of a plane malfunction or terrorist act, their kids would be alone on the plane for their last moments?"

Let's apply a little risk-benefit analysis here: the risk is so unlikely (a child has a far greater risk of dying in a car crash while riding with a friend's parent), while the benefits are so great for both child and parent (both in terms of convenience and the child gradually learning responsibility and independence), that the benefits vastly outweigh the drawbacks. OK, so maybe you don't want your child flying alone in Chechnya or North Korea... But this is North America, guys! And the airlines go to great lengths in their rules for and supervision of children flying solo.

"Gavin deBecker agrees with you. His number one recommendation for cutting out needless worry is to stop watching local news. All of it. It's just pointless scaremongering."

I think this is the best advice ever. It drives me a little nuts when I hear my MIL (who watches news shows constantly) go on about how things are so much more dangerous today and you just can't let kids outside. My son has recently started playing alone in the yard. He's just over two, and a few times lately we've gone out to play and then he'll say, "You go inside now, I play in the sand." It's cool to see him getting his sense of independence. Though of course I stay near the windows where I can hear and keep an eye on him, and he'll periodically call out to tell me what he's doing and check in.

We chose our house because it is walking distance to schools, the park and the library and biking distance to the little downtown area, and I intend to give my son the freedom to explore as he grows older. I know there are risks, there always have been and there always will be and we'll never be able to keep our kids perfectly safe. There's no such thing. I guess we won't know what balance we'll strike till we get there, but I hope that my child will have the chance to develop and explore and grow on his terms the way that I did.

I think a much more real problem is the lack of pedestrian or bike friendly neighborhoods - all those suburbs with no sidewalks and countless cul de sacs that keep you from actually being able to go anywhere without a car. We were lucky to land in a spot with sidewalks and a bike path to the small downtown.

I disagree with Leslie on this point. Why does she have to send her kids to FL to have some fun while on their 4 day weekend? Why couldn't she take one day off and her husband take another to cover Friday and Monday? Our local YMCA schedules special camps for certain times of the year. For example, our public schools have a week long "spring break " in April (I know, I don't know why elementary kids need a spring break either). The Y has several day camps offered that same week so people have a place to send their kids that is both novel and supervised. Frankly, my son likes to stay home and veg. He has been shuttled around to daycare and school since he was two months old, he LIKES being home.

I WILL NOT leave my child unsupervised until he is at LEAST 13. Call me paranoid. I watched a terrifying local news report that asked school kids about stranger danger. All the kids knew it was bad to talk/go with a stranger but when asked what a stranger was or what a stranger looked like, they routinely said they WOULD talk or leave with a stranger when they were shown pictures of strangers. The pictures ranged from men, women, old people, young people. Only when they were shown pictures of filthy homeless people did the kids recognize the person as a "stranger." What was truly scary was that they were also shown a picture of a KNOWN sexual predator who is currently on trail for imprisoning, torturing, raping, and killing a woman and the kids said he was a nice man whom they would talk to. The reality may be that we are just as safe today as we were 30 years ago but ask any parent who has had a child stolen and I am SURE they would tell you they would give anything to have been more vigilant. Most of us will never be victims of a crime like that but criminals take advantage of opportunity and I for one will not give them any.

Like many others here, I've been on flights with unaccompanied minors, and they all seem to do rather well, much more so than those who are accompanied by parents. Maybe it's because those kids are a bit older than the ones who act up. Or maybe they feel sophisticated to be flying alone and assume the attitude they deem appropriate for such an adventure. I didn't take my first flight till I was 25, but I know if I had flown as a kid, I'd have felt very grown-up and would have acted as such. But that's just me.

Independence...that's a biggie. That's something I worry about a bit as a future parent. I was given a ton of independence; my parents were largely absent during my childhood. I didn't get into trouble or anything, but I think that's because of my personality more than anything else; I was just used to being left alone. However, my mom has passed down the lovely gift of OCD (thanks, mom), and I worry about stuff all the time. Right now that worry is focused on "did I turn off the stove? are the cats inside or did one sneak out? did I remember to feed and water them?" etc, but a lot of that comes from worrying about the cats, and yes, I know how "crazy cat lady" that sounds. But I am afraid of being a smothering mom when I have kids. I'm worried that I'll hover over them all the time and cry every time they get a scrape. What's ironic is that BF thinks I'll be the opposite: removed and absent, focused too much on career and volunteer work, basically ignoring them. Which is what brings us to this blog. I'd like to strike a happy medium between the two extremes, and reading what everyone here has to say really helps. Rather than complaining about kids on a plane today, how about swapping stories of the first time you let your kids do (insert activity here)?

Single western mom, what happened to Adam Walsh, Polly Klaus and other children was horrifying in the extreme. But the chances of it happening to your child are so slim.

My neighbor has managed to scare the living daylights out of both of her daughters. They are fearful of doing anything on their own, and insist that we watch them from the front porch of our house while they walk to their house two doors down. They are 7 and 10 years old. A car slowed down once while they were playing in the front yard and the two girls freaked. Their overprotective mother called the police who showed up fairly quickly. The car drove by again and the lunatic mother was screaming at the car while the police office was discovering that it was a couple looking at homes for sale in our neighborhood.

Working with cases involving children in your line of work must equate to having the all stranger-kidnapping channel on all the time (if there was such a thing, and maybe some day there will be). I just can't let myself be so fearful.

I just wanted to ad, I think playgrounds and sportsfields (where kids are inevitably out of sight for part of the time, and there are many, many "exit routes") are much more dangerous places than airplanes when there's a good "chain of custody" from gate to gate on the plane. Protecting your kids is all well and good, but people should be rational!

"Right now that worry is focused on 'did I turn off the stove? are the cats inside or did one sneak out? did I remember to feed and water them?' etc, but a lot of that comes from worrying about the cats, and yes, I know how 'crazy cat lady' that sounds."

Oh, Mona, please don't use the word "crazy" in such proximity to "cat lady" (with or without a space between the words), OK? We ailurophiles already get such an undeserved bad rap, anyhow -- LOL!

"OK, so maybe you don't want your child flying alone in Chechnya or North Korea... But this is North America, guys!"

Nonsense. How is your kid supposed to get her start in the lucrative ballistic missile black market unless she is allowed to fly to Pyongyang with a briefcase full of unmarked, non-sequential US dollars every so often? Damn helicopter parents.

catlady, I'm sorry, you're right. We all know you're not crazy. And thanks for the SAT word--you never know what you're going to learn on this blog!

does anyone else remember the story a while ago about the kid who got lost in the mountains, and hid from the search and rescue teams because he had been instructed to NEVER EVER talk to strangers? They only found him when he was weak enough that he could no longer get away. There's a flip side to everything.

"I think that instead of raising our boys like we raise our girls, we should raise our girls like we raise our boys, and give them more latitude to express themselves and assert themselves."

Emily,

Captain Underpants rocks! and my husband and I are parenting our daughter like our son, as you suggest. No hovering and extra concern, no applause for passivity, and lots of guidance on how to politely challenge authority.

I cannot recall the publication, but I read an article last week that posited that the difference in percentage of male and female CEOs might be attributable, in part, to differences in risk-taking behavior between the genders, e.g., in order to be a strong leader in a competititive marketplace, you need to take, and sell others in your organization on taking, smart risks. As you might imagine, to the extent there's anything to this theory, I believe it's about nurture rather than nature. We can't control everything, but we can control the characteristics we nurture in our children and encourage smart risk-taking in our daughters. We're not doing them any favors by joining the protect-our-daughters-from-all-injury-or-misfortune-at-all-costs league.

KLB, I missed your great post until someone else mentioned it. How was your trip?

single western mom, I'm not giving you a hard time, but having checked the sex offender registry for your ultra-safe neighborhood in Phoenix, and found none in your neighborhood, all you know is that, as of the last time the database was uploaded before the date on which you checked it, there were no convicted sex offenders who were complying with the registration requirements living in your neighborhood. The non-compliant sex offenders, and the ones who've not yet been caught, may or may not be next door.

"I think that instead of raising our boys like we raise our girls, we should raise our girls like we raise our boys, and give them more latitude to express themselves and assert themselves."

Emily,

Captain Underpants rocks! and my husband and I are parenting our daughter like our son, as you suggest. No hovering and extra concern, no applause for passivity, and lots of guidance on how to politely challenge authority.

I cannot recall the publication, but I read an article last week that posited that the difference in percentage of male and female CEOs might be attributable, in part, to differences in risk-taking behavior between the genders, e.g., in order to be a strong leader in a competititive marketplace, you need to take, and sell others in your organization on taking, smart risks. As you might imagine, to the extent there's anything to this theory, I believe it's about nurture rather than nature. We can't control everything, but we can control the characteristics we nurture in our children and encourage smart risk-taking in our daughters. The protect-our-daughters-from-all-injury-or-misfortune-at-all-costs crowd cringe at the thought.

KLB, I missed your great post until someone else mentioned it. How was your trip?

single western mom, I'm not giving you a hard time, but having checked the sex offender registry for your ultra-safe neighborhood in Phoenix, and found none in your neighborhood, all you know is that, as of the last time the database was uploaded before the date on which you checked it, there were no convicted sex offenders who were complying with the registration requirements living in your neighborhood. The non-compliant sex offenders, and the ones who've not yet been caught, may or may not be next door.

"Most of us will never be victims of a crime like that but criminals take advantage of opportunity and I for one will not give them any."

I understand your need to feel safe, but really, you cannot control every minute detail of life in the interest of security. You may as well just shut yourself up and not live. Do you not drive because of the risk of a car accident? There are myriad ways that you or your children could