We "owe" it to our kids to give them what they need in life to survive. This means teaching how to cross the street safely (i.e. not near a metrobus), read so they don't eat poisons, etc. It goes upto (and includes) higher education. Dump a kid into the world with a high school diploma and you have a fast food worker (or worse, a criminal). Send a "kids" out into the world with a BA or higher degree, and you have a person ready to make a difference.

Yes, yes. I know, there are self-made people out there. But it is way easier to succeed when not burdened with debt coming out of school.

So yes, it is my responsibility to educate my kids no matter how much they want or what it costs.

My husband and I believe that we do owe our children a college education, but in no way does that mean it's going to be paid by us 100% unless we can do it without affecting our retirement. One of our primary reason for sending our kids to college might be viewed as selfish: we don't want them to be showing up on our doorstep every 6 months looking for a handout. My parents made it CRYSTAL clear that we were to plan to be in an apartment of our own or with friends no later than the September after we graduated. I think it was great. I think it's the way life is supposed to work.

I hear stories about parents who let -- who ENCOURAGE -- their children to return to living at home after college, and I shudder. Sorry, but that's not my plan.

We owe our kids what we believe we owe our kids. I believe that I owe my kids the most I can "comfortably" provide for them. For me and my family, I can comfortably afford private school, college and probably grad school while still saving for all that I need to save for (i.e., retirement). My parents paid my way through undergraduate and then when it was time for law school, they said they were out of money to spend on my education. They needed to put more money away for retirement. I respect them for that. They did not put themselves in the poor house so I could get what I wanted. Its all about balance -- in my opinion.

By virtue of bringing them into the world, parents do owe children certain things. After all, children don't ask to be born, and it wouldn't be fair to bring them into the world and not provide a minimum of necessities for them.

That raises the question, what is the minimum? Obviously, food, clothing, a safe environment, and perhaps affection are the absolute minimum parents owe their children. But an education isn't far off from the necessities. It may be higher on Maslow's hierarchy of needs than what is needed to merely subsist, but what type of life is mere subsistence?

An education is necessary to have any sort of fulfillment in life, and I would argue parents owe children an education. They don't owe them an Ivy League education and they shouldn't jeopardize their retirement savings to fund a private school or university. But parents at least need foster an interest in learning, impress the importance of a good education on their children, ensure their children get at least a high-school education, and encourage a post-secondary education. Footing the bill is, of course, a plus, but is not required.

First!

To the Father of 2 - The comment "dump a kid into the world with a high school diploma and you have a fast food worker (or worse, a criminal)" assumes -- or worst -- stigmatizes unnecessarily a whole group of people. By the same token, having a college degree, whether it is a BA, BS or higher, does not necessarily make the person more productive or even principled. Look at the case of the so-called "educated" executives who ran Enron and WorldCom.

Other than that -- yes...we do owe our children an education to make sure that they have the foundation to become productive citizens. Formal education (public/private schools, college) only provides only one segment of this education. The real education comes from passing along our (i.e., the caretaker's) solemn life experience, educational knowledge and values that our children will as productive and abiding citizens so that they can in turn make sound judgments.

While I don't think I "owe" my daughter a college education, with the price of college these days and the fact that she couldn't possibly do it herself unless she went to a community college or got a full scholarship, we will help as much as we can. Plus she is a bright kid, and it would be terrible if she didn't go to at least undergrad.

That said, we plan to do what my parents did. They paid for my undergrad, but for grad school I was on my own. So I went to work at the university so I could get free tuition.

As far as other things, we are trying to give her a moral compass for her to steer with. For the most part it seems to be working (with the exception last year of when she really lost it at Hebrew School). She has gotten some religious education, starting with going to a religious preschool. She has been a Girl Scout for 6 years now since kindergarten and I think that provides her with good values too. If you don't get the values in before middle school, it's too late and the kids (and society) will pay for it by the time they are teens.

Does this issue belong in "on balance" or "on parenting"?

After age 18, you don't owe your kids a thing. If you raise them correctly they can work to pay for it themselves. BTW, Father of 2 -- my parents never finished high school. They were the hardest working and most law abiding people I've ever known. A really annoying thing called World War II got in the way. They raised four kids, none of whom worked in a fast food place. Two have worked in law enforcement or corrections, and one is currently a court commissioner. A college degree does not guarantee success. Just look at the white collar criminals infesting Wall Street and Board rooms across the country. Get over yourself.

I left home at age 19, a year out of high school, with $100 in my purse to cover the first month's rent and all living expenses until I got a paycheck from Uncle Sam. Since then I've put myself through night school at a very expensive university. I lived in apartments until I was able to buy a condo, then a house, then the house I live in now, which has tripled in value since I bought it. For college graduation my parents gave me a plastic pin from Hallmark Cards that says "Super Grad." It set them back about 79 cents.

Since leaving home my parents have not given me a dime -- nothing for tuition, cars, houses, living expenses. How many of you spoiled Yuppies can say the same thing? Make 'em work for what they get.

Re letting kids return home after college:
My parents let me live at home for a year after college before I went to law school. It was amazingly helpful because it allowed me to save enough money to buy a car. Without a car getting to and from law school would have been much harder and I never would have been able to pay rent and buy a car on my crummy legal assistant salary. Maybe this isn't what you were referring to, WorkingMomX, since in my situation everyone knew from the beginning that it was only for a year and then I would be moving out. But finding a job after college is so much harder than it used to be (especially with any kind of degree in the humanities). Putting pressure on children to move out by a certain date only forces them to take a job, any job, instead of giving them the time and flexibility to find one that they want. Obviously, the key is having everyone understand that this is a temporary situation. Also, I tried really hard to be considerate and helpful around the house, which made it a better time for everyone. Letting your kids return home after college does not mean that they will be there forever.

Absolutely this belongs on Balance -- we are not balancing time (like usual topics) -- we are balancing priorities -- higher education v. retirement. Remember, a kid can borrow to go to school -- you cannot borrow to retire.

great topic? but only 7 comments so far?
i don't know... i have never really thought of it in terms of owing it to my son to educate him, or anything else. but i guess you can define responsibility that way? as far as education goes, i think as a nation we constructed a system of education to ensure none of our children are, pardon me, left behind, and so we have public schools that children are required to attend unless otherwise provided for. but without that system, as some have already said, it is still the parents' responsibility to make sure their children are equipped to make their own ways in the world, whatever kind of "education" that means. whether it is required by law or not. so... i think this is kind of a moot topic maybe? on what do we owe our kids in general... are we asking what is a parent's responsibility? aren't we all pretty much in agreement on the larger answers to that question?

To Babe in Total Control of Herself:

" my parents never finished high school. They were the hardest working and most law abiding people I've ever known. A really annoying thing called World War II got in the way."

That was then. This is now. Lack of a post-high school education hampers your ability in TODAY'S world.

A related, equally imoportant question: To what extent do I -- a childless adult -- owe YOUR children an education? Currently, 52 percent of my state and local taxes go towards education YOUR kids. Shouldn't my share be lower, say 33 percent? If not, WHY not?

"great topic? but only 7 comments so far?"

Posting ability was down until around noon

I left undergrad with about $14K in debt. This was a really good deal for the outstanding education I got; I was on my own for grad school, which seemed entirely fair. Dropping out of college is my mom's biggest regret and she was determined that my sister and I not be hamstrung by financial considerations when we were choosing our schools.

It's unlikely that I'll be able to give my putative kids the same free rein, but Husband and I certainly plan on funding their undergraduate degrees to the best of our ability. And if they wanted to move back home for a year afterwards in order to aggressively pay off any student debt,I can't see any problem with that. (If they want to move back home because they don't feel like paying rent, I do see a problem with that.)

Of course we owe our children an education. Yes, that includes college. I will fully pay for undergrad- at whatever school my child wants (or is the best fit) whether that be community college or Harvard. I will also help w/ grad school (maybe pay for rent while she handles tuition..something to that effect)
It's completely ridiculous to even consider making your child graduate with enormous debt. It's selfish and lazy, to be blunt.
Kids can only make so much money while attending school full time- have them pay their cell phone bill, going out money, etc but please, why would anyone let their kid saddle themselves with 100K in loans?
And what about actually having a college experience? If they have to work all of the time and constantly worry about money, they won't be able to be on student government or whatever else they want to be involved with.
That's unfair.

Hi Charlottesville -- Living at home for a strictly defined period of a year with the sole purpose of saving for higher education would probably be okay. It's the people who talk about "it's okay if they live with me until they're 40" who creep me out. I don't think they're doing their children any favors.

Can't remember which movie this was in, but I have an image of Robert Duvall saying something like "All of friends talk about how their children move away and they never see them anymore. Why can't we have that problem?" That's what I'm talking about!!

"Since leaving home my parents have not given me a dime -- nothing for tuition, cars, houses, living expenses. How many of you spoiled Yuppies can say the same thing? "

I left home younger than you with nothing. While I lived at home, I was charged board. I WALKED to college and work for 4 years and took the bus 1 1/2 hours one way commute + a pretty good hike to law school for 3 years.

My husband and I paid for our wedding and we paid off out house in 10 years with no family assistance.

I don't begrudge anyone who gets funding from their parents - that's the luck of the draw; same as DNA.

You really need to get over yourself.

"If they have to work all of the time and constantly worry about money, they won't be able to be on student government or whatever else they want to be involved with."

What a bunch of malarkey. It is this kind of entitled attitude that makes kids today feel they are owed a debt-free life with no strings attached doing whatever they want, whenever they want without regard for anyone else.

Working a part-time job to help pay for college will give them much more of an understanding of the way the world works than sitting on the student government.

Wow anon at 12:25 -- unfair -- I agree, but not everyone can afford to do that -- so should they not have kids? Only rich people can have kids??? slippery slope I say

"Can't remember which movie this was in, but I have an image of Robert Duvall saying something like "All of friends talk about how their children move away and they never see them anymore. Why can't we have that problem?" That's what I'm talking about!!"

That's the spirit! Breed 'em, coddle 'em, and hope and pray that one day they'll leave you alone! That's what parenting is all about!

To Wow, Looks like another snarky childless by choice poster. Are you as dense as you're making yourself out to be?

I think we owe our kids OPPORTUNITY, not RESULTS (sorry for the yelling).

We don't owe them a full belly, we owe them access to food.

Similarly, I owe my baby boy the diligence and understanding necessary to HELP HIM ACQUIRE an education. I can't open his head up and put the knowledge in there, and I don't owe him a blank check to go to any school he chooses, free and clear.

I work with lots of different people every day, and it is always clear to me which adults expect things handed to them or explained in mind-numbing detail or expect to have all risks and unknowns reduced to zero before they take any step in a process.

There's the other category of initiative takers who are responsible enough to realize success/failure is in their hands, and adaptable enough to make changes to increase the possibility of their own success. They are self-made.

I want to raise a self-made successful child, not someone who is used to having everything supplied, explained or understood before they make a move.

"And what about actually having a college experience?"

Part of the college experience is learning to manage money, learning how much things "really" cost, and learning what is and is not necessary.

I would venture a guess that students who are at least somewhat accountable for their educations and/or living expenses 1) appreciate it more; 2) graduate with a better grasp of real life; and 3) end up being more fulfilled in the end.

Rich kids whose mommies and daddies foot the whole bill but run student government may graduate with a profound lack of perspective.

You don't have to be rich to help your kids pay for college- it's called planning!

I am in no way rich, but I have priorities and I allocate my resources accordingly.

I don't think that only rich people should have kids, but you SHOULD be able to afford them! If you can't even begin to pay for your kids, then maybe you should stop at one or not have them at all. Yes, I believe that.
It doesn't take ONLY love to raise a child. That's called reality

"I want to raise a self-made successful child, not someone who is used to having everything supplied, explained or understood before they make a move. "

And self-made is not a simple definition. Somebody who was kicked out at 18, worked 3 jobs to get a degree, and now is comfortable is self-made. Somebody who excelled in college and grad school (even if paid for by mom and pop) and is now successful is self-made.

But somebody who gets everything handed to them, has mommy and daddy bail them out of any situation, gets a cushy job because of who they know, etc is NOT self-made.

Just because you have financial help, doesn't mean you can't be self-made.

And Proud Papa, I'm quoting you but not attacking your post. Just using it to make my point.

Not only to parents owe their children a college education, they owe it to AMERICA.

Parents are raising an illiterate, unthinking, unintellectual generation of TV watchers and obese fast food eaters who will fail to sustain themselves or our economy in the future.

Unless America raises a genration of scientists, mathmaticians, engineers, and thinkers our economy will be JUST LIKE THE LOSER SOVIET UNION'S.

IF YOU DON'T MAKE YOUR KID STUDY AND GO TO COLLEGE YOU ARE A BAD PARENT. PERIOD

About "having a college experience" -- this is what I wanted so badly for my stepdaughter. An experience like mine, with friends, maybe a sorority, and good memories and activities and sports, etc. (I'm a very lucky person.) Probably the movie stereotype of a college experience.

It didn't happen, or should I say, it isn't, happening. She is one of those kids who ultimately will get where she needs to go, but she takes a different path. She took a year off because she wasn't serious enough about it (this after graduating 10th in her class). She worked three jobs that year because we refused to let her sit on her backside and watch MTV while we footed the bills. She now lives off campus and attends school full-time, paid 70% by us and 30% by her. We were willing to pay 100%, didn't want her to have a job while there, etc., but she needed things done differently.

It was a hard lesson for me to learn about changing your dearest expectations for your children, but I'm getting there.

As a society we owe children a basic education and an affordable higer education. My parents paid my first year of college, after that I paid for it myself and came out of school with less then $1500 debt. I expect my kids to be saving their money towards a college education while in high school and be willing to forego some video games, cell phones etc. I am also putting money away to pay in state tuition at a public college. Beyond that it will be their responsibility

Anon at 12:37 -- ok -- fair point -- I agree, that I think more people need to plan better but I think for some its not that easy. I am glad that for me and presumably you, it is. We are very lucky (although I worked my a@@ off and struggled and did without for many years to get there).

I like WorkingMomX's comments very much, even though i disagree. The flip side to the "get them out of the house" mentality is the joint-family that is tradition in lots of Asian cultures. I lived at home with my parents after college and I had a $40K a year job(back in the 90's when that was a good starter in DC.) Now I am married with my own home and they'll come live with me when they are too old to care for themselves.
For the record i am a perfectly independent career minded person. But I am also family oriented, and I will certainly cover the cost of my children's education because they need that to be successful. Why does everything in America have to be about the individual? Why not about the family? I don't want a blue collar K mart life for my kids.
And before there is a mass chorus about elitism, let me say that my parents grew up in a village with no running water, and they did not get here by saying "There's nothing wrong with that." That attitude is total BS. There is nothing wrong with that if that's the best you can do, but if you can do better, you should. And that includes putting your kids through trade school or college if it is within your means to do so.

We owe our children the best that we can possibly give them within our means. We owe them a peaceful and loving family. We owe them an education that teaches them to be good people who can support themselves as adults. We owe them an upbringing which provides them with strong moral and values. Do we necessarily owe them a college or post-secondary education. I think that depends on each family and each child. We at least owe them the consideration of such an education. If we can afford to help them, we should, according to our particular means. If we can't afford to pay anything at all, we can still help them by being supportive, letting them live at home while they go to the local community college, helping them research scholarships and grants, and encouraging them in their efforts to get an education. If college is not their path, we should help them find an alternate path that will allow them to one day live an independent life that fulfills them.

I see it this way. We chose to have our children. They are our responsibility and our contribution to this world. And as such, it is incumbent upon us to do our very best for our children. It's really quite simple.

Catmommy said "I would venture a guess that students who are at least somewhat accountable for their educations and/or living expenses 1) appreciate it more; 2) graduate with a better grasp of real life; and 3) end up being more fulfilled in the end."

Nice generalization. I had college & living expenses paid for by mom and dad. I appreciated it completely - especially seeing my friends and coworkers who suffer trying to save for retirement, etc with loans outstanding. I have a complete grasp of real life and my education was very fulfilling. Best part, I was able to concentrate on my studies since I didn't have to worry about part-time jobs or how I was going to pay for things.

I really don't see why people get so defensive on this issue.

I speak from experience of working full time while in school full time from 18-22 years of age that it was really hard and it was awful. I experienced none of the college things. Knock student govt all you want, but I actually would have LOVED to be involved in that and the newspaper (since journalism was my MAJOR)- I didn't want to join a sorority- I wanted to be involved in campus life! What's wrong with that? I actually DID miss out on a lot of life experiences by being stuck waitressing all the time.
Also, don't forget internships and the VERY real world expereince (and job offers) that extend from them. Would you deny paying for your kid's tuition for a year or a semester while they were interning full time that was unpaid (as Most internships are)? Is an internship an acceptable form of "life experience" for you anti-payers?
What will you do when your kids can't pay the bills becuase they have so much debt to pay off? Don't you think that's unfair?

Fo2 thanks much.

I do think that having undergrad and grad 100% paid for by mom and dad reduces an individual's drive to be self-made.

It's not impossible. My wife's parents paid for her undergrad and she had the guts to pay for law school herself when they assured her she would fail out and never make it.

But I think it's a lot easier to understand the realities of hard work when you don't have the 100% safety net of mom and dad to fall back on, even if it is just your realization/shame that you will have let them down if your grades are awful and they are splitting your tuition bill.

I personally believe that what goes around comes around ... my mom let me move back in with her rent-free after I finished my undergraduate degree and started work. She's retiring in a few months, and my husband and I are going to move HER into OUR home so she doesn't have to worry about mortgage, etc as she gets older.

While the left-brain side of me understands the practicality of moving one's kids out of the house, we are talking about FAMILIES here ... I just think it would be nice if some parents treated their kids more like family members than like burdens that they are glad to be rid of when the kid turns 18.

Dear "not-so-fast" I am a self educated individual. I grew up on welfare, was abandoned by my teachers, and left alone to lose.

You are correct that the miimum of any decent parent is to instill a sense of self determiniation..

BUT LIFE IS DEFINITELY NEAR IMPOSSIBLE IN AMERICA WITHOUT A COLLEGE EDUCATION.

Frankly there aren't too many ghetto minded people like I was, who can do what I did... and I'm white.. imagine if I was black or latin and had to fight that prejudice, too.

A college education is MANDATORY for a successful life in 21st century America. You might make it as a street vendor in Tijuana Mexico without one, but not here.

Humans are curious and intelligent. Healthy children learn period. Educational institutions came into existence to provide some structure to what was learned and to share learning between families, societies and cultures. Who received the education has varied throughout history and cultures, usually based on gender, race and religion, ie. discrimination. Society doesn't owe education to the children. Society owes education to itself for its own advancement. Societies crumble, even advanced ones. Do parents owe it to their children? They owe their support but it shouldn't be handed over on a silver platter either. To value education is what is owed to the children. If the child doesn't value education and personal development they won't perform well even if ordered or enticed to go to school at any level. One of the signs of a crumbling society is the elevation of the Entertainment industry and it's performers to almost godlike worship, ie valued over all else including education.

You are so right Long Beach CA. This country is focused on justifiying mediocrity for self-serving reasons. Don't want to make anyone feel bad about not having an education by insisting their kids get one. Hoping your children educate themselves without your guidance and assistance is moronic. They will be ten paces behind the kids with parents that CARE.

We owe our kids the tools that they will need to survive and thrive in the world, as best as we are able to provide them. To me and my husband, that includes paying for at least a large part of college. We have realized how fortunate we are to have come out of college and grad school without much debt -- him because his parents paid for college and he got a fellowship to grad school, me because I got scholarships and worked, along with a little help from my mom. Yes, I had loans -- but my less than $10K in loans was in a whole different category from from my friend who financed Harvard Law to the tune of $150K in debt, and as a result couldn't follow his dream to be an FBI agent because he needed the big firm salary (and even with that, he still couldn't buy a house).

I want my kids to be able to do what they love and are called to do. If that means being a teacher or artist, and if they are otherwise willing to live on that salary, I don't want them to have to sacrifice that just to pay off six figures of debt. So, since we are financially able to save for college, I feel it is my obligation to do so.

That said, I also do not feel compelled to give them a free ride to the most expensive school around. My brothers always had everything provided to them, and they took it for granted, screwed around, dropped out, took 6-7 yrs to graduate, and basically had to hit 30 before they managed to grown up and learn a little responsibility -- the real world was quite a shock to them both. While loans can be a huge burden, the inability to function in the real world is a far worse one.

So my current plan is to be prepared to pay for the basics at a good state school. If they want to go somewhere else that is more expensive, they will need to work hard to get scholarships and consider some amount of loans. Maybe that means, if they want to teach preschool at $18,000/yr, they don't pay 2-3 times that amount to go to Harvard, even if I could afford it -- sounds tough, but that's the kind of financial tradeoff that they're going to need to learn to deal with in real life, so might as well learn that early on (as compared to my brother, who still hasn't learned to live within his means).

What's funny is that my mother, who had NO money, was absolutely 100% determined that I should go to the best school I got into without even considering the cost, even if it meant a second mortgage on the house (I still couldn't do it, though -- I picked the place with the best financial aid package). I agree with her that a great education is a must, but I am also aware of the downside risk of giving too much and demanding too little in return (an option that was never open to her). So I may change my mind as my kids get older and I have a better sense of their work ethics and sense of responsibility. But for now, I will provide the basics that they need to have a firm foundation in the world, but not all the extras they might like.

Proud Papa, but as said above (I think), just going to a school doesn't mean you get an education. You have to work at it.

I agree that getting an 'A' when you paid for the class probably feels "better" than getting an 'A' on mom/dad's dime but you still had to work for that 'A'. The profs don't know who's paying the bill.

Through high school, I knew what was expected of me in college and I worked my butt off since I knew what my parents were paying and I didn't want them wasting their money. Because it wasn't my money, I was able to relax during my non-studying time.

Turning the question around a few degrees, is it in our best interests to provide an education for our kids? We lose spending money in the short term. What do we gain? The basement apartment back, perhaps. Peace of mind. And in lots of cases, grandkids. That is, young people with no school debt are more likely to have kids, and have them earlier. This seems to be very important to parents.

While the left-brain side of me understands the practicality of moving one's kids out of the house, we are talking about FAMILIES here ... I just think it would be nice if some parents treated their kids more like family members than like burdens that they are glad to be rid of when the kid turns 18.

Posted by: StudentMom | February 23, 2007 12:45 PM

Great point Student Mom. Everyday I marvel at the fact that people treat their kids as 2nd thoughts! Kids in daycare from day 1, parents working 80 hrs/week, complaining at the cost of the daycare that is raising their kids! It's unbelievable.
My mother in law said last year that she was "done parenting" "My job is done" is wha she said. That comment made me both angry and very sad. And that's the mentality of a lot of people on this board.
Why even have kids?
You don't want to stay home with them or, god forbid, cut your hours back at work! you don't want to pay good prices for nannies or preschool, you don't want to buy them a good college education...
Why be a family if you don't treat them like one?

You are not fooling anyone, CBC. I can easily tell that "Babe in Total Control of Herself" is just you in disguise. And there is no way you are any kind of babe.

I do resent somewhat the apparent assumption that having college paid for by parents = a lifetime of feeling entitled. I don't think it's a bad idea to make kids earn their own spending money and just pay for the basics - this makes them have to plan and budget and make occasional trade-offs but does not make them stress out about not having enough money to graduate. Also, paying for college does not mean paying for any college. My parents told me that if I went to a state school they would pay for all of it, but were honest that they could not afford to pay $40K a year to send me to a private school, so if I wanted to go to one I would have to find loans, etc. This really made me weigh the financial consequences of which college I chose. I went with the state school (less of a sacrifice in Virginia) and I never regreted it.

My cousin was thrown out when he was 18, and quite honestly, his parents made it very clear to him throughout his life that they resented him (he was a sickly baby) and they told him for YEARS that he was going to be tossed out at 18. And they did it, too.

He was a nice kid, but let me tell you, knowing how little he was loved really did a number on him.

I was terribly upset when he died as a result of injuries in an accident (not his fault). On the one hand, I understand that his parents WERE saddened by his death, on the other hand I found it pretty galling how surprised they were that anyone found him a worthwhile human being; they openly resented the large turn-out at his funeral. It took them 3 years to get a headstone, and it wasn't until they saw his fiancee's web site that they even started to pursue it.

And yeah, they were definitely of the, "We don't owe you a thing and don't ask US for help of ANY kind once we get rid of you" variety of parent.

This really chaps my hide as they paid for his younger sister to go through college, in full; plus my grandparents provided them with child care, a business (family run) that provided a damned good income, and were very generous through the years to my aunt and uncle.

They owed him a tool kit, some encouragement, and yeah, some financial preparations would have been nice given that they had the dough.

I think we all should focus on the fact that having a stick up your @$$ is not the same thing as a spine. Spines flex, when called upon to do so. Individual circumstances vary, but it is prudent to put aside money for retirement (first and foremost) AND some coin for college, or something. Doesn't have to be much to be appreciated.

FlipSide, there is a secret part of me that wishes my family were like that. Truly. But we are not. I don't know if it's cultural or just the way we are. It isn't that we don't care about each other very deeply -- we all spend most vacations together flying halfway 'cross country to see each other. We're together at all holidays and talk every day. But we are not the same as your family in that there's an expectation that we'll be living together. I think we would drive each other insane in a very short period of time. Maybe we're all inherently selfish people, I don't know. I feel pretty happy with myself and my family. But yours sounds wonderful as well.

This is a great topic! My hubby and I talk about stuff like this all the time. It's important to discuss these things way in advance.

And even though we don't have children yet (we're actually not sure if we can have any), if we do, we'll be helping them as best we can, but with the expectation that they carry some of the responsibility as well. We both did, and I think we appreciate it more in the long run.

I WANT my children to get an education, but I don't feel like I owe it to them. In fact, I had to pay for my own college education and it made me a stronger, better person. That said, I would not hold out on them just to teach them a lesson, but my husband and I do plan to make them work for some of their education and not hand it ALL to them. When you work for something, you appreciate it more.

In general, I think we hand our children too much. We need to teach them to be resonsible adults in a world where virtually NOTHING is handed to them. In essence, I view it as training our replacement, just like I had to do in my business.

I agree, we owe what is within our means. My husband and I subscribe to this philosophy: You can borrow for college but you can't borrow for retirement. We do all we can to provide a wonderful childhood for our children without sacrificing our retirement savings. They play sports and do some summer camps, but we can't afford piano lessions or the piano itself! We moved to a great public school district but they share a bedroom. I think we provide a nice life, but are not monetarily rich.

The worst thing I would want to do is be a burden to our children in our old age. We'll find a way for paying for college, it's just not happening now.

I think this blog needs to have a serious discussion about naming Britany Spears Mother of the Year after all, all of her problems as we all know were caused by that bastard of a husband, the courts saw that, thats the reason she was given custody of children, what a wonderful example of motherhood.

"I grew up on welfare, was abandoned by my teachers, and left alone to lose."

Same here plus beatings, psycho homelife, etc.

Then I lived in voluntary poverty while I attended college & university for 8 years.

One of the best moments in my life was checking out college catalogs side by side with my teenage daughter. All of the pain of my life melted away when I told her she could attend the school of her choice. Money was not as issue. How sweet it is!!

Mr. Methane,

For your state to remain a competitive environment for employers, it needs to maintain a competitive workforce. To do this it needs to pay for education (k-12 and higher ed). There are states that pay a lot less in to educaiton from state taxes(see this website http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d05/tables/dt05_029.asp). You should note that these states do fairly poorly on a number of outcomes. I'm not suggesting that education is the only factor involved here, but I'm fairly comfortable saying that it is a significant contributer to the problems these states currently face. A couple of factors contribute to this dynamic. Educated and economically successful individuals and families (who tend to drive economies) will probably not want to move to areas with low educational spending/attainment. Also employers will not invest in areas without a skilled workforce.

"You don't want to stay home with them or, god forbid, cut your hours back at work! you don't want to pay good prices for nannies or preschool, you don't want to buy them a good college education"

Actually the reason many couples have both parents work is so that they can save for retirement & college. Remember back in the day when most moms stayed home, a lot less people went to college, there were more 'good' jobs that didn't require a college degree and the cost of college in relation to the median family income was less.

One of the best moments in my life was checking out college catalogs side by side with my teenage daughter. All of the pain of my life melted away when I told her she could attend the school of her choice. Money was not as issue. How sweet it is!!

Posted by: | February 23, 2007 12:55 PM

What a wonderful moment- I'm tearing up just thinking about how great you must have felt! Congrats!

In order for a group to create and maintain a society, all individuals within that group incur certain obligations. This theory, Social Contract theory, is probably the single-most important Western philosophical foundation with respect to the formation and governance of society.

For parents, one such obligation is to ensure the education of their children. By doing so, parents form an inter-generational social contract -- the young generation is assured that they will receive the skills necessary to thrive, and the adults providing these skills will be taken care of as they become elderly by this same generation of children.

The reality of the contract is that as members of society our obligation to provide education is not just limited to our children -- it is to all children within our society. It is in recognition of this that public education is supported.

"To what extent do I -- a childless adult -- owe YOUR children an education? Currently, 52 percent of my state and local taxes go towards education YOUR kids. Shouldn't my share be lower, say 33 percent? If not, WHY not?"

Public education of everyone's children benefits everyone, even the childless. If you object to paying equally for other people's children to be educated to the basic level, I assume you will equally be reluctant to use the services those children provide when they are adults?

You are going to be pretty short on doctors and shopkeepers and contractors (and everything else) in your middle age and later life, if you are consistent in your thinking.

Proud Papa: opportunity, not results-- Great way to put it. We need to give our kids tools, but which tools they keep in the toolbox long-term is up to them. And WorkingMomX, re giving up your dearest expectations for your children, that's a huge part of it too, IMO--we owe our kids high expectations, but we can't be too specific either. We need them to do well and be someone, but we don't always get to say what.

I'm divided on higher education. I have one, but it's only tangentially related to what I do. NONE, and I mean NONE of my friends "use" their educations as such. We're all successful by anyone's measure, but none of us stayed on the paths we first chose. Some were sent in certain directions by their parents and later realized they just weren't cut out for those roles. Others followed their noses, and eventually learned the difference between a job and a calling. Myself, I have one love and I've done a number of different things related to that love.

My parents are quite happy with my career choice. They're less than happy with my brother (training to be a millwright) because they envisioned academic success for all of us. My brother is just not that person. He has failed his way through a whole bunch of schooling--but now that he's in a program he enjoys, he is excelling, and my parents are starting to come around. Better a happy and talented millwright than a miserable and mediocre lawyer (or whatever).

I've also seen way too many people sleep through their higher education, exit with a very average grade and no particular passion, and then wonder why no one is rushing to offer them a great job. There are no "great" jobs in a field you only entered because Mommy and Daddy paid for you to do so. You need to be excited by what you do. That's what our parents owe us: that message.

If you find what you love, you'll find a way to get there whether the parents can afford to help financially or not.

Years ago, when my middle brother was in college, I remember his complaining about his schedule and how busy he was because he had to work a few hours on the weekends. My parents paid his tuition, books and board at school, but did not give him extra spending money. That was his responsibily. So he worked at a deli on weekends. That particular week apparently had been pretty hard with a slew of tests and papers, and he was complaining that between school and work, he did not have time to relax. My mother was sympathetic, but did not offer to do anything to remedy the situation. After my brother left, she told me that it was good for him to struggle a little. That it builds character, as long as the struggle is not so difficult that it cannot be overcome. In the end, my brother was fine. He graduated with good grades, got a job, and is a perfectly self-sufficient and confident person. I think my parents handled our upbringing just right. They never turned us away, but they never met all of our needs either. This helped all of us learn gradually how to fend for ourselves.

Long Beach said "IF YOU DON'T MAKE YOUR KID STUDY AND GO TO COLLEGE YOU ARE A BAD PARENT. PERIOD".
The making kids study part I agree with (at least to the best of their ability) but calling someone a bad parent is, at the very least, unfair and ridiculous. Some children don't want to go to college or are not suited for it. Should their parents waste thousands of dollars just so you don't think they are a bad parent?

Nobody in my family had completely parental subsidized post high school schooling. We all worked part time and during the summer for books and spending money. Some of us paid for it all ourselves. Everybody lived at home and drove an older car.

I think that parents owe their children the tools that will allow those children to succeed in college. The parents have to be involved in the younger years. I've seen kindergarteners who can't recognize numbers 11-25, but know every Pokemon character. That is disgraceful.

Going to community college is not something to dread. It's something to be grateful for. Here we have this wonderful opportunity for people to go to college at a very reasonable price. Class sizes are small, professors are there to teach (not do research), and the professors' educations are the same as at 4-year schools (Ph.D.). Plus now in Virginia, there are several state universities that have guaranteed transfer plans for students who earn their associate's degrees from a Virginia community college.

The community college is truly the "pathway to the bachelor's degree."

I graduated two years ago, so I think I stand as a pretty good example of recent college experience. I went to a 4-year public university that is located in southwest Virginia (I bet you can all guess), and I was an out-of-state student. My parents could not afford college, but they at least made sure that I was determined enough to get through college anyway. It was tough. I worked 40+ hours a week and took 20-23 credit hours a semester. Oh, and by the way, I did not miss out on internships either. I also still graduated summa cum laude in four years with two bachelor's degrees, and was offered jobs at every single one of the places I applied to (about 10), and every single place told me that the things that set me apart were (1) my full-time job/school at the same time and (2) that I was paying for school on my own.

My husband's single mother also could not afford his education, and so he waited. He got a job in state government, and 3 years later has a job that is highly coveted by those who graduate with a 4-year degree. He took that time to learn about what he wanted to do, and now he is going to college part time so that he has the beloved "piece of paper".

On the other hand, a friend of mine from No.VA had her parents pay for college. She graduated with one bachelor's degree in five years, no honors but a decent GPA, applied to over 40 jobs and got none. She works at the same company I work for because I got her the job. Now, her parents are also footing the bill for her apartment (because she spends all her money on eating out and clothes), her $25,000 wedding, and a down payment on her house. (Meanwhile, her mom is in grave debt because of her education.) If you think you won't be that parent, her mom said the same thing freshman year. Obviously, this is only one example, but I could tell you hundreds like this.

I'm not bragging. College was tough for me, but I did not "miss out" (except maybe on the excessive partying, woo hoo). I have debt, which I am paying off. I learned time management, respect for everyone (regardless of job or education), and to appreciate the little things. I'm not a saint, but I will say that, maturity-wise, people tell me I'm an "old soul." I will thank my parents for that.

WorkingMomX: Ah, but it is not easy for me either! My mother is a very opinionated woman! And my MIL is a very messy person. =) I won't even mention the headaches generated by my SIL.
Here is the thing: If the family breaks into fours or twos or ones, we will all be worse off, and we know it. And while we may irritate each other, we get over it the way two siblings sharing a room might. And i learn to let somethings go. And they will probably tell you that they do to (although sometime i think not enough, but that's another story!) Bottom line: we are stronger, better, happier, more secure, and more cared for together than we would if we had more superficially happy but distant relationships.
But you are right: one person alone doesn't change a family, the whole family has to be group minded to begin with. And that's hard when society doesn't back you up. My colleagues treat me like a hero because my in-laws stay with us six months at a time! But my indian friends say: oh, they don't stay with you all the time??!!
Perspective, huh?

I don't have any children right now, but my husband and I have talked about what sort of an education we will provide for them. Even though I lived at home while in undergrad and law school, most of my expenses were paid by me, including clothes, food, transportation, tuition, books. To make ends meet I worked and I took out loans (about $125K). My husband during his early twenties did return home during financially difficult times. With our experiences, we feel that we should pay the most that we can without creating a sense of entitlement. We want them to be productive members of society and not have them come back home as young adults, and a degree is helpful towards that goal. If it is sensible that our child stay home to go to school, we will not kick them out. But having missed that aspect of education, I will want them to go away for school.
And I will have to agree with WDC about the impact student debt has on having children. Due to my large student loans, we are not having children any time soon.

At a minimum, parents should try to treat their children with some sort of equality. DH's parents did nothing to help him with college. He had to go to class and wonder how to pay his rent. He had to take time off more than once to work full time.

Imagine our surprise, when his parents paid for his two younger siblings to attend college. They paid tuition, room and board, and even gave them spending money. To top it off, my husband is far smarter than either of his two siblings, who are extraordinarily "ordinary." Now, hubby faces going back to college to finish his degree years later, while his younger siblings are going for free, switching majors every other semester, and trying to "find themselves."

My parents and I had a fine arrangement -- I pulled my weight with scholarships and a part-time job, which did not interfere with working for the paper, being in a sorority, and joining several clubs. Meanwhile, my parents helped me pick up the slack with living expenses. I learned the value of money and didn't graduate in debt. I am just sick that my husband's parents could not work out a similar situation with him and are now spoiling the younger brats rotten.

Watch out everyone - less than two hours into it and mcewen is already beating his tired drum!

Someone wrote "I expect my kids to be saving their money towards a college education while in high school and be willing to forego some video games, cell phones etc."

The money they would save by forgoing video games and cell phones will not make a dent when one year of undergrad at Stanford costs $45,000.

I've already got a college fund going for my 3 year old -- I contribute to it monthly. I don't think I "owe" education to her as much as I want her to feel that she has choices (like Laura, I also had a friend who could not take his dream job because it didn't pay enough to cover his loans) and opportunities to find and follow her passion. I do want her to be able to take that unpaid internship if it is truly what she wants and I don't want her to have to punch a clock when she could be participating in sports or student government. Lord knows, there'll be plenty of time to do that in her life.... so, I'll do what I can to ensure that she can go the college of her choice (unless, of course, it is Duke).

"Through high school, I knew what was expected of me in college and I worked my butt off since"

I'm confused. How does one "work their butt off" in school?

I sat on my can, read a lot of books, memorized a zillion things and wrote a lot of papers, but I wasn't "working".

Miners, ditch diggers and some other folk "work"; students do something else.

The main reason I went to school was so I could have a career that didn't involve "work", but called for brain power.

"The money they would save by forgoing video games and cell phones will not make a dent when one year of undergrad at Stanford costs $45,000."

One year or one semester??? I'm thinking one semester. Those prices (for a year) are about 15 years old.

I was raised in an alcoholic family and my dad beat me everyday. I left the house when I was 17 years old with nothing but the clothes on my back. Then I worked my way through an Ivy League college working 2 night shift jobs and not a dime of government funding or help from anyone.

Now I own a huge house and an expensive sportscar and get all the movie channels on cable. I wouldn't even think about having any kids until I've saved up for their entire college tuition. I call it responsible parenting and if you can't follow my standards, you are a loser, should never have any kids, and don't deserve the time of day.

LOL, Flipside! I have a friend whose husband is Syrian and his parents used to come for an unspecified amount of time (usually ended up being 5-10 months). The stories she'd treat me to at work! Apparently a good daughter-in-law is supposed to clean the bathroom directly before the mother-in-law uses it. This was a constant struggle for my American girl-next-door friend.

I love hearing stories about other families. Thanks for sharing.

I am curious, also, as to how people's own experience affects their desires for their kids. Touching story from anon at 12:55 regarding being able to give your kids what you did not have.
My parents were kind & supportive but poor, so I put myself through school, which was hard, but good for me. I remember scoffing a bit at the people who had it easier--I felt they just weren't learning as much. Some weren't serious students because it wasn't their own money at stake; others were very serious students but still weren't under much life pressure, which was (to me) the biggest learning experience--having to not only study, but pay the rent, find compatible jobs, etc. This gave me a bit of a chip and for many years I declared everyone should have to pay their own way.

I've mellowed more now--I think it's a lovely gift to give your kids IF it's what they really want & need. (I still think it's dumb to force them to go, if they're not self-motivated yet.) I'm curious to hear from those whose parents paid their way though.

Both my husband I and worked our way through college.. I will help my daughter because I can, but there is no way she is going to be one of these kids who parties and leads the life of leisure on my dime.

I will pay her car insurance, health insurance, part of her tuition, etc. However, she will get a job to pay the rest and for spending money and she will work a full time job during the summer.

As far as the "everyone needs a college education" spiel. That's great to say but there will always be someone who can't go to college for a variety of reasons. There needs to be jobs that these people can do, like food service, factory work, or other types of service work. Unfortunately, many of the jobs that these people do are being shipped overseas because of greedy corporations. I know lots of people who are blue collar who are not criminals; they just don't have what it takes to go to college and be doctors, lawyers, etc or even the desire to do it.

"There needs to be jobs that these people can do, like food service, factory work, or other types of service work. Unfortunately, many of the jobs that these people do are being shipped overseas because of greedy corporations."

Yup, McD's is shipping his food service jobs overseas. Flipping burgers in India but serving them in D.C. Also, kind of hard to dig a ditch in VA from Mexico.

>Apparently a good daughter-in-law is >supposed to clean the bathroom directly >before the mother-in-law uses it. This >was a constant struggle for my American >girl-next-door friend

Oh my god! that's insane! now that i could not tolerate. Yes, extended family only works when there is mutal respect!!

90% of my friends worked in college. I don't understand what you are "missing out" on just because you have a job. The group that I associated with was Greek, in the student government, and primarily Pre-Med and Engineering students. I didn't work 40 hours/week (usually 20+, though) and didn't feel abnormal at all. In today's competitive job market, students who exhibit good time management skills, such as those who are employed during college, are seen as an asset.

At least it's better than having to clean the bathroom after the MIL uses it.

"90% of my friends worked in college. I don't understand what you are "missing out" on just because you have a job"

I think there is a difference between working in college for spending cash, etc. and working to pay the entire bill. One is a good balance (in my opinion) the other causes hardship and reduces college "life" (again, in my opinion)

I have an off-subject question. If the mods want to delete this, it's ok.

But I am curious about how long it took people here to concieve? My hubby says that we have plenty of time because we're young (we're both 24). But it's been a while, and nothing. Please share if you feel comfortable!

Parents owe their children an inspiraion to learn, a burning desire to do something they like and the rest be damned. Or they should present such a repelling example of their small boring life that a rebellion naturally follows. I left home at 16 after high school, got myself a Masters and PhD and never looked back. Never took a dime from them. Never waitressed or cleaned. Got paid for my art, writing, and running a project on stochastic processes modeling as an undergrad. From the time I was in high school and forever on I was incredibly lucky to meet the inspiring adults: in school, in the community, in the big world -- I was exchanging letters with former President at age 14!-- but luck is the function of the character. Regular people would always warn me that I'm just learning, the real life is different, wait till you are out of high school, out of college, out of grad school...

Ok, I'm out. 10 years in a "real world", and doing pretty well. And what are they saying now? Oh, Mary Jane, you are just different...

People always said "The times have changed, you can't do now what used to be possible during the World War II/ Great Depression/Industrial Revolution." Now they are saying that to my 8 y.o. Guess what? It just ain't true.

EducatedMom: "Society doesn't owe education to the children. Society owes education to itself for its own advancement." What an insightful way to reframe the discussion. This gives everyone in the society a role to play -- parents, families, childless tax payers, and children themselves. Specifically to the role of parents, what they "owe" (not so much to the children but to the society) is the mediation of resources (time, money, values) to their children with the purpose of equipping children to advance the society. The specific judgement calls (about time, money, vaules) will of course be different in every case. Big job! Thanks for your post.

My parents paid for the college education of my two older siblings and myself. This included veterinary school for my brother; they would have paid for my graduate degree as well, but I got a teaching-assistantship to cover that, so they helped me with my living expenses (within reason).

My parents never hesitated about paying for our education - that was simply a given. But in return, we were expected to actually achieve. As my parents put it to us, the tuition, room, board, books, fees that they paid (in addition to a modest monthly allowance) were equivalent to our salary.

See, going to school was our job for the next four years, and they were our employers. I always thought it was a fair trade, especially once I got to school and had friends taking full-time jobs on top of their classes to help make ends meet. I wasn't exactly a money-bags, but I bought a lot of pizza and beer for my friends because I could. I figured it was the least I could do, considering I was lucky enough to have the luxury to choose a part-time job instead of needing it.

My sister didn't live up to her end of the bargain (more partying than class attendance), so my parents stopped paying for her education after her sophomore year. She never went back, and has since regretted it, realizing that a BS/BA is nearly equivalent to a HS degree these days (at least for the stuff she now wants to do).

I am AMAZED how many people feel they "owe" their kids a college education! I don't have kids yet, but I have parents, and they definitely did not believe, nor ever allowed me to believe, that they "owed" me anything after I turned 18. They helped me out in college, for which I am enormously grateful to them. I still had scholarships, I worked, and yes, I had loans and I still have debt. But I make all my payments and still manage to live on my own and have the sort of lifestyle I want. I think you "owe" your children the best you can give them until they're 18, at which time they should be mature enough to take responsibility for their own lives, and if you choose to help them beyond that, they should appreciate that you are able and generous enough to do so. God, I absolutely HATE the sense of entitlement in kids nowdays. Nobody, not even the people who love you the most, OWE it to you to support you through grad school. Take some responsibility for your own education.

I noticed that Harvard is getting thrown around as an example of an unaffordable school. Just wanted to point out that Harvard - as well as many other big-name schools - provides *need-based* financial aid. So, if your kid gets into Harvard, you *will* be able to pay for it without sacrificing your house, retirement, or other children. In fact, if your income is below a certain threshhold, you will get a full scholarship. And, just to clarify, part of the aid may come in the form of loans that the student will have to pay off after graduation, so don't view it as entirely a free ride for the student.

Chrissy, the doctors say don't worry until you have been trying for a year. Easy for them to say! I would suggest that you talk to a doctor about your cycle, counting days, taking your temperature and other easy ways to chart your fertility.

experienced mom:

A year? Wow! We stopped using birth control when we moved in together at 20. I've been to my doctor and everything checked out normal. I have a very regular cycle, to a near ridiculous point. (So much that one month I was off by one day and thought I might be pregnant. I was so excited, I went out and bought a test, took it, and it was negative. I got my period an hour later.)

It's not frustrating me yet, but I do want this to happen soon.

There is no natural law that says parents (or anyone else for that matter) will provide anything (much less an education) for their children once they are born.

Children are: an investment for your personal care in your old age, a means of perpetuating your genotype, someone to play God to, an accident, a personal obligation, etc.

For me, my children are one of my means of showing the universe that I'm better than anyone else. In order to prove this statement, I need to make my children as successful as possible. Providing an environment that stimulates mental, physical and moral development is essential. An educational system does a large part of that.

For general society, children are the means by which that society perpetuates itself. It is in the interests of that society to instill a beleif and behavior system that supports the existance of that society. Resources need to be invested to do so. It is NOT necessary to have a formal educational system to do so, although such a system should make use of those resources more efficient.

American society has been able to exist on an average educational level between 3rd and 9th grade on the average. So realistically, there isn't any reason for our society to invest more resources than is necessary to get children past the 9th grade.

However, higher education does open a larger window of opportunity for people to succeed. Those partents and groups that wish to gain a survival advantage should invest resources in obtaining a higher education for the physical and mental skills that their children will need. People in the top 10% of the socio-economic scale almost invariably spend enormous amounts of money to send their children to college for undergraduate and graduate degrees; and thereby perpetuate their families in that upper income bracket. Very, very, very few people on the low end of the scale ever send their children to college, and so never move up the scale.

To
I'm the greatest one on this blog

Your story sounds bogus. If you were so poor, you would have qualifed for financial assistance from the government and/or at least the Ivy League School you attended.

Think about the difference between who paid for Bill and who paid for Hillary to attend Ivy League schools.

I don't think that parent's owe their kids a college education, but I think it is fair to expect that children are informed of their parent's intent. My parents started saving for college when I was born. I knew this from a very early age. I also knew that I would have to attend a state school in the state where we were residents in order for my entire tuition to be paid. I had other friends whose parents didn't pay any of their college expenses. They expected this before hand and realized the steps they would have to take to pay their own way.

For what it's worth, my parents felt that they owed it to us to instill a sense of self-reliance, but then to also support the steps we took toward that self-reliance. For example, the deal in our house was that once you graduated from college (which I paid for myself), you got one year to live at home, rent-free, while you found a job, saved some money, got a car, etc. After that year, you either moved out, or paid a modest rent to the parents. In high school, I got a night/weekend job at a movie theater, and they made sure I always had a ride to and from work. (the theater closed at 11:30 PM, so the bus wasn't a great option at that point)

The price of being an adult, much less a parent, is setting an example to those who would follow. If we are so inclined as to be irresponsible, we have only ourselves to blame for the poor development of the next generation and thus should not tsk nor absolve ourselves when everything of value in how people treat one another with the honor, dignity, and respect deserved to be given from one person to another flies out the window. If you want to contribute to the further decline of society by shirking your basic human responsibilities that make you human, then that is your right. However, I submit to you that even the lowest of animals impart to their youth some semblance of proper behavior. What, if anything, should grant freedom from this responsibility to us? As the most advanced species, cats might argue otherwise, we are the custodians of this planet, and thus responsible for proper maintenance of everything. This can not be done without continued education and impartation of morals- something that continues to disappear despite marvelous technological advances. At risk sounding trite: With great power comes great responsibility. Lately I have witnessed more impartation of the former, and less of the latter. Do you have the right to neglect education in all its forms? Certainly! But should you? I think not. You should agree, if only for purely selfish reasons. A more educated, in all senses of the word to include development of a sense of duty, self-respect, and honor, individual will be more likely to watch over you in your old age and perpetuate a humane cycle of birth, growth, and death. If you fail to instill values in the next generation, those things humanity has strived to achieve for thousands of years, such as equal and honorable treatment of all- as evidenced by the golden rule and the rule of law, will eventually be lost. People seem to have only taken the financial spin to this article into consideration, but failing scholarships, college is expensive. Any assistance you can provide would be of great help to your child, and could in turn be of great help to society, but only if you raised an educated and well adjusted child. Success should not be measured in wealth of money, but wealth of experience and wealth of integrity. As someone pointed out earlier, a college degree does not necessarily make one successful, especially if they are corrupt. They may make a lot of money, but as human beings they would be dismal failures and contributing to the downfall of society. Rather your children be educated to do the right thing no matter what, and then worry about college than place so much emphasis on potential financial gain from college. True success will more likely come to those who live a right life, and it can be measured by how others can see their integrity.

No, we don't owe our kids an education but why wouldn't you want to give your children every advantage possible? I was raised by a single mother (abandoned by her husband when pregnant with me) and I put myself through college. Sometimes things happen where parents can't pay for college and I understand that. However, I wouldn't even consider planning to have children without the intent to pay, at the least, a large portion of their college education. This is why I have put off having kids and will have to limit my family size. I really don't understand the logic of people who claim it isn't their responsibility, the kids will get more out of it if they pay for it themselves, or who claim I am a stay at home mom which is more important than saving for a college education (btw, I am planning at staying home for quite a while, but not at the expense of college funds). These people appear to be just lazy and pathetic. Will their kid get more out of life starting off burdened with a huge amount of debt or more out of life working 3 jobs and going to class fulltime - like I did - while their friends are off immersing themselves in their studies, parties, cultural opportunities, concerts, their friends, developing relationships?

This topic is very close to me right now. I am a graduate student working as a nanny. My parents have never paid for my education. I always went to public schools and they always told me and my siblings that our education is our responsibility. My parents are middle-class, not rich so I understand they can't afford four Harvard educations. I went to a state school for my undergraduate education and had an academic scholarship from the state. Since I wasn't burdened with too much debt I am now at AU which is costing an arm and a leg. I realize this isn't everyone's choice. My uncle pays all the bills for his children as they are going through school and it is costing him. It is a matter of what you are trying to instill in your children. As an undergrad I worked full time in a nursing home and paid rent. I worked with some students whose parents made them quit work because of one bad grade and those parents already were paying for everything! I am tired of spoiled brats in my classes who complain that daddy bought them the blue mercedes, not the red one and so that means he doesn't love her. I thank my parents for not indulging me like that and making me take responsibility for myself.

Yup, McD's is shipping his food service jobs overseas. Flipping burgers in India but serving them in D.C. Also, kind of hard to dig a ditch in VA from Mexico.

Sorry that is not what I meant. I meant that a lot of factory jobs, and other service jobs like telemarketers, customer service etc. I think you knew what I meant and just wanted to be snarky.

"Yup, McD's is shipping his food service jobs overseas."

Actually, I read an article that McDonalds will soon start outsourcing its drive-through order-taking. Supposedly, orders will be taken off-site through telecommunication technology, and not by the person handing you your food and making change at the window. The person taking your order won't even be on the premises.

AlisonNY, you sound VERY young. And quite naive.

Chrissy, if you want to get pregnant:
1. Cut your sexual activity from 5 times a week (as do typical 24 year olds), down to once or twice. It's the big one that'll get you there.

2. Have hubby switch to boxers and make sure he hangs loose around the house. A bedroom fan could also be useful to help keep those bad boys cool at night.

3. You and your hubby should babysit a kid for the day, like going to the zoo, park and museum.

Once you got the right juices flowing and the emotional chemistry cooking... BANG!

Chrissy, I highly, highly recommend "Taking Charge of Your Fertility". My husband and I read it together and were pregnant in three months. It'll teach you more about your body than you ever realized you should know!

"I am tired of spoiled brats in my classes who complain that daddy bought them the blue mercedes, not the red one and so that means he doesn't love her. I thank my parents for not indulging me like that and making me take responsibility for myself."

Oh PLEASE, florida girl. These types of people are very few and far between. I went to private schools all my life and have only met ONE person like that. This is such a stereotype.
And yes I worked during college to pay for food, utilities, spending money, etc. The rest was paid for by a 70% scholarship/grant combo and the rest by my parents. I only graduated 5 years ago, so I am not out of the loop like some in their 40s on this board who have NO CLUE what it's like now. Just because you paid for it 20 years ago does not mean it is doable now- because it isn't in most cases.

My husband's parents didn't help him at all, so he up and joined the military. He gave over his entire life for 6 years, went to school for his BA and now his MBA- all paid for by the military. Thankfully he didn't die in the mean time- but one shouldn't have to join the military or accumulate large amounts of debt to get a BA!

I now have a little girl and we have been saving since I was about 6 months pregnant. THe message this sends to your kids: Education is IMPORTANT. It is a top priority in this house. We have picked saving for your education over buying a house. We have chosen to save for your education over having new cars.How does that message breed laziness and "entitlement". I think it actually does the opposite- that she better not take education lightly and work hard. We have sacrificed a lot to save for this- it's not to be partied away.
The entitlement issue comes in when kids get EVERYTHING- $300 pairs of jeans, new cars, etc.
Your kids aren't going to be spoiled brats becuase you paid for college. They'll be spoild brats if they always get what they want in the material sense.
It seems that college is the wrong time to teach these lessons. A child doesn't become "entitled" overnight- there's a lifetime of spoiling going on there.
Paying for college won't change their personalities or their morals.
Such stereotypical responses.
What about tha parents who work hard to save and cut out other spending to save for college? Not the parents making 7 figures and buying their kids whatever they want.

Good parents want the best for their kids. So I have no idea why someone who would choose to have kids wouldn't provide them with everything they could within reason. I understand not getting a kid a brand new car for sweet 16 - but 4 years of instate tuition - come on, if you are a parent you should want to do this and you should have been saving for the last 18 years to do so. What is the problem?

As for this comment, "A college education is MANDATORY for a successful life in 21st century "
I don't necessarily agree. I have quite a few friends without 4 year degrees with decent salaries and I would consider them successful. I also have quite a few college educated friends that I would not consider successful. Although a college degree isn't mandatory for success it sure helps a whole lot and any decent parent should be willing to help out. Unfortunately there are quite a few selfish parents that harbor jealousy towards their kids and wouldn't like it so much if their 25 year old made more money then they did at 55, traveled to places the parent never dreamed of going, or just had an all-around more interesting and fulfilling life than they ever did.

I conceived the first time I didn't use birth control. It was actually sooner than I wanted. I just believed the story that it would take a while after stopping contraception.

I think those who imagine making kids pay for higher education will magically make them more responsible and better students are deluding themselves. Because college is in and itself work --- and when the unpaid work of learning and studying comes second priority to paid work, the whole point of the college education is undermined.

As a professor I've had several students in this situation, flailing with near full-time work on top of full-time study at an expensive and demanding private university. I'm sorry for them, but aside from explaining that their priorities are failing them, what can I do? They're tired and confused, they can't get their homework done on time, or they turn in hastily scrabbled work which is hardly their best and which they failed to work deliberately through, and learn from. They can't find time to master new material before it comes up on exams; they just don't have the time resources necessary to succeed in what needs to be a serious commitment. They are sacrificing tremendously and working very hard, but it's misdirected and self-defeating. Why are they driving themselves into the ground to attend a great university, then wasting that hard-fought opportunity by not devoting any time to it? by accumulating a poor transcript, because they can't focus during this short window of opportunity, on their courses? that checkered transcript will damn many of the dreams they are working toward, forever . . . (many hope to be pre-law, pre-vet, pre-med, pre-pharmacy; they need to show *achievement* in college, not just paid bills, and they need to actually learn the foundational material of their disciplines. This is a full-time commitment.)

I personally think any level of part-time work beyond 15 hours weekly during the semester begins to compromise the whole point of being at college in the first place. The student's achievement, not to mention their experience of what should be a wide-open exploration of possibilities and ideas and peers, degrades.

Some students try to self-fund while going part-time for many years, but that too is a very risky proposition. I have seen so many people basically swimming backwards in that attempt, losing credit toward a degree as their studies drag on and life, moving apace, gets in the way. Work/family commitments make them transfer institutions, or institutions change, and they end up loosing applicable credit toward a degree faster than they gain it. Every course also forces them to relearn material they've now forgotten. It's a way of compounding the effort needed to attain a degree, many-fold. Many such students just fall by the wayside.

Sure, I've also seen students who screw up by putting no effort toward their classes. The point isn't really whose money they're wasting; it's why are they in college in the first place? While some skirt by minimally for a full 4 years, and actually graduate - with a degree and a lousy transcript - most crash and burn quickly. A better strategy with them is to exclude them from college until they truly want to go, until they're committed to not squandering the opportunity, until they can show achievement in a college environment.

Most scholarship funds require a B average for continued eligibility. Most scholarship recipients are far more concerned about doing their best, and don't need that impetus of sustained eligibility to goad them . . . but that's a much more reasonable goad than 'if you pay for it, then you'll appreciate it.' Students do pay for it already, in opportunity cost: it's their one chance at college, to be fully exploited or to be squandered or mismanaged, and I'd say 85 percent of my students, they know it.

Quite frankly, I expect my daughter's school to be paid for by her hard work in high school to win merit-based scholarships.

"I now have a little girl and we have been saving since I was about 6 months pregnant. THe message this sends to your kids: Education is IMPORTANT. It is a top priority in this house. We have picked saving for your education over buying a house. We have chosen to save for your education over having new cars.How does that message breed laziness and "entitlement". I think it actually does the opposite- that she better not take education lightly and work hard. We have sacrificed a lot to save for this- it's not to be partied away.
The entitlement issue comes in when kids get EVERYTHING- $300 pairs of jeans, new cars, etc."

Posted by: SAHMbacktowork | February 23, 2007 01:59 PM

Amen!!! That sums it up for me as well.
Great alternative message to send to kids and to parents.

I have to agree with Mr. Methane. Assuming you both have kids (and if I'm wrong, my apologies), nobody asked you to have them. And when you did decide to have kids, I feel quite certain it wasn't because you wanted to benefit society at large. If you want all the joys of having children, then you should also be willing to take all the responsibilities, especially financial.

As many jobs that used to require only a high school diploma now require a college degree (despite no change in the skills required), I am beginning to believe that either we as a society (not individual parents) owe our kids an education, or we as a society need to overhaul the way we treat education.

Postsecondary education has become an expectation on the part of employers, many of whom seem to think they are entitled to highly educated workers. Unfortunately, education is not treated as an entitlement for those workers. They have to pay for that education, and it is becoming increasingly expensive. If we are going to expect that people acquire college degrees, we must be prepared to help them pay for them, either in the form of heavily subsidized education, or through salaries that make repaying those loans truly possible. Otherwise, college education becomes the right and privilege once again of those who can afford it. What will happen to those who can't?

While I don't feel that I "owe" any of my three children a free college education, my husband and I will help them to the best of our ability because we love them and want to help them be as successful in life as possible.

The "parents must pay for college because it is so unfair for kids to graduate saddled with debt" argument, however, irks me. The media has documented that college tuition has risen much faster than the rate of inflation over the last decade or so. In the 20 years since I graduated from college, tuition at my alma mater went from $4500/year to $26,000/year. While public universities are more affordable, the cost of obtaining a 4-year undergraduate degree can still cost $75K or more. That is a significant amount of money to expect parents to be able to save, especially those with multiple children. While it's unfortunate to see young people graduating from college deeply in debt, isn't it equally as unfair to demand that parents put themselves in the poor house and exhaust funds they may need for retirement?

In a perfect world we would figure out how to keep college costs low and expand availability of low interest loans to all students. Until that day comes, my children will simply have to be satisfied with whatever my husband and I can manage to save for their college expenses without shortchanging our necessary living expenses and retirement accounts.

We have sacrificed a lot to save for this- it's not to be partied away.

Are you going to college with her to ensure this doesn't happen?

The question is not do we owe our own children an education, but do we owe everyone else's child the same level of education? Like so many things in the USA today, the politics require that an earned middle class standard become the norm. So the middle class is taxed to the point where they cannot affort what is given away. Do the schools teach the fable of "Henny Penny" anymore?

I am not sure that owing your children anything is the right idea. Owing them an education or a swwet sixteen party implies that it is an obligation. For most people (at least those that aree posting here) having children was something that you chose to do, not something that you were obligated to do. Therefore, you get to choose what you think they will need to enter soc