First!

That's pretty funny. I've never seen what the big deal is about breastfeeding in public.

However, I'll bet it made some folks uncomfortable, and I'm certain that I wouldn't have done the same. But then, I was always a klutzy breastfeeder and my kids were squirmers.

"Here's the future I hope for. A woman gets up to a microphone in a board meeting, or a client presentation, or a Senate vote, and whips out her baby at the same time she flicks on her Powerpoint slides. Can you see it? It might take 10 or 20 or 30 years, but I can."

That's just plain wrong!!!!!! Work should make accomodations for working parents BUT children and work should NEVER mix. Sorry, "Bring your Brat to work day" is bad enough.

Leslie, "Can you see it?"

No, I never will, but I hope you get your wish! Ha!

IN THIS CORNER:

We have the smug breastfeeders who, protected by law in most states, feed their children whenever, wherever without a thought for who might be watching and feeling icky.

AND IN THIS CORNER:

We have the smug bottlefeeders and childless who gripe and moan on blogs but are too afraid to say what they really feel in public because they know medical science backs up the other side.

It's going to be a great day on the blog, folks. I can already tell we're going to hit that 400 mark . . .

Good for her! I'm not sure how I'd feel if this were, say, a meeting of CEOs, but in this context, it seems appropriate.

I kind of have to agree with the ill-tempered anonymous poster in that kids and work don't, and shouldn't, generally mix. But as long as they're in the work environment, I don't see any problem with them eating.

"That's just plain wrong!!!!!! Work should make accommodations for working parents BUT children and work should NEVER mix. Sorry, "Bring your Brat to work day" is bad enough"

Could not agree more!

"I kind of have to agree with the ill-tempered anonymous poster in that kids and work don't, and shouldn't, generally mix. But as long as they're in the work environment, I don't see any problem with them eating."

Ah, come on, I wasn't ill-tempered. :)

No problem with them eating. Just like I wouldn't (and shouldn't) eat during a Board meeting, presentation, etc., neither should the child.

(Ok, ill-temper leaking out now?) I think Leslie left her common sense in the drawer when she wrote this one.

To anon at 8:16 -- Lots of people eat during meetings and presentations. Many times, these things are held during lunch.

Under certain circumstances, work and family do mix, and mix wonderfully. Small businesses, companies that sell family-oriented products, farms, bookstores, plant nurseries, the list goes on and on. Of course there are many places where it would be dangerous or unproductive for children or other non-workers to be. But especially when it comes to infants, most routine workplaces can easily accomodate them. And this acceptance makes it far easier and more comfortable for women to continue working once they have children.

"To anon at 8:16 -- Lots of people eat during meetings and presentations. Many times, these things are held during lunch."

I've only seen this at meetings/presentations specifically marketed as "Brownbag Seminars" and the like. Other than coffee, water, soda, etc, eating during presentations never happens. To me, very VERY unprofessional. And during a Senate vote, I don't think so.

Did you have to use the word boob? I think this is part of the reason why people have issues about nursing in public....

Agreed on the unprofessional bit. If it's rude for an adult to eat in the middle of it, it's rude for a kid to. No matter what their source of nourishment.

I attend weekly meetings of the managers and directors at my company. Lunch is always provided and training is often presented while people are eating. It's called multi-tasking, and is hardly a new phenomenon.

So, anon at 8:28, you would be just as offended if someone fed their child a bottle during a meeting. Right?

wow anon are you a sentor?

"So, anon at 8:28, you would be just as offended if someone fed their child a bottle during a meeting. Right?"

Yup. Bringing a kid to the meeting is wrong - period. Feeding them (or yourself) is also wrong.

Leslie, I don't want to be rude but breast feeding again. There are not that many angles on the issue of breast feeding. If we need to repeat topics, can't they cycle around every 3 to 4 months versus every 3 to 4 weeks. Here are some good balance topics that I would like to suggest:
1) limiting the number of children in the family
2) opening up your own business
3) non profit organizations that help parents who choose to SAH for a few years, get back into the work place
4) home schooling with working parents
5) online college and graduate programs
6) best after school care arrangements
Just a suggestion. I keep seeing similar topics creep back. Why can't we start new topics?

As far as yesterdays, branch away topic on Home schooling is concerned. I think a lot of miscommunication is on both sides. I seriously think a lot of home schooling parents really don't understand how much education classes can help in the traditional educational enviroment. DD is speech delayed. I think I have mentioned that several times. She goes to special education preschool through Fairfax county. I am sooo impressed with everything they have done with her. Not that we can't let her play in the water table, or play with rice. It is the language rich enviroment that is what is helping her. Also they are totally on top of her emotional and cognitive development. I sincerely think she was far better off in a day care that is being run by loving and nurturing people with 15 years of child care experience and 20+ years of parenting experience and going to the professional run preschool. I have an undergraduate degree in mathematics and a graduate degree in statistics. I tried teaching, with minimal education classes (2 courses and summer of student teaching) and it was a shear nightmare. Teaching at the elementary and secondary level is not about subject matter. It is teaching kids to live, thrive, and learn in a complex insituation. That being said, I do think some home school children have remarkable academic and social success. There are some kids that you could drop in a super market and they would be socialized. Other kids, like my own, needs intensive intervention, to just learn how to play with other kids (btw, DD does not have any cognitive delays-just social and speech). I swear the little home schoolers, on average, can really spell. But spelling is a simple systematic form of memorization. I could use some help in that department. The studies that I have read said it isn't that home schoolers do not have social interactions. In fact they do as much as formal schooled children. Because a lot of what goes on in schools is not social. You sit at little desks and work on work sheets or listen to an instructor. The problem lies in that they have a disproportionate of good experiences. They don't deal with the liars, the bullies, the social misfits etc... I do think there is a ton of arrogance on the part of some home schooled parents and also on the side of the traditional educational supporters. Both sides need to see there are pros and cons to both sides. I, myself, could never imagine home schooling my kid. I know I would zone out and let her watch TV or get on the computer half the day. I know I would not be disciplined enough to be a good home schooling parent. But hats off to all that can do it well. The one thing that I am really disappointed in is the lack of federal guidelines in home schooling. If you home school in VA for religious reasons, your kids are exempt from the SOLs. I am not saying that all or even most home schooling parents, do not take their jobs seriously. But there are few wacko parents that will say they are home schooling and essentially do nothing at all with their kids. I find this to be neglect. We have a good friend of ours, who is home schooling and he is simply not going to teach math to his kids. He said he doesn't like math and never uses it in his every day life, so he is going to skip that subject all together. I am not at all saying everyone in the world needs to learn integral calculus. Frankly, very few people use that in their every day life. I do by the way. But at least teach the basics: algebra, geometery, trigonometery. Lord knows, if I have any academic regrets, it is that I wished I had worked harder at writing. Let's work on getting some federal standards for home schooling. And not any of this phony no child left behind stuff. So real conceptual standards for home schoolers and formally educated students.

I have mixed feelings about this blog post.

It seems to me that this woman was just trying to make the point that she can breastfeed wherever or whenever she wants. I mean did her kid need fed right at that moment? The baby couldn't wait a few minutes for her brief speech to be over? She didn't know the baby was hungry a few minutes before her speech was to start or she couldn't have started her speech a few minutes later?

I am all for breastfeeding if that is what you want to do. Good for you and the baby, but I am not really for the "look at me I can do whatever I want whenever I want." That is the vibe I got from this posting. It's not like she was a mother at the mall who sat down to feed her baby and was subjected to mean stares or comments or a breast feeding woman who needs to pump and is told to do it in a bathroom stall.

I think there is a difference between flaunting it and just doing it because you have the right to feed your baby.

Okay, anon at 8:28. I don't think you're in good company with that opinion, but what do I know? I suspect that either you're not in a position to be invited to such lunches and are envious or that for some reason you don't like eating in public. Either way, it happens every day in almost every company -- and even in federal buildings.

This is kind of a non-issue. There are times where work/family/food combine (such as Brown Bag lunches or Bring Your Kid to Work Day), but those times are specifically denoted.

Otherwise, it is customary to keep them separate.

Hey foamgnome,

Just curious, are you for or against limiting the number of children? Whatever your answer is, why??

Thanks for the homeschooling post too!

foamgnome

I am in an online grad school program. Best thing ever invented.

Vienna Mom, what's wrong with the word "boob". I think it's the perfect word for women's breast. For one thing, visually, it's a nice round word, and auditorially, it mimics the heart warming cooing of a very happy baby. If I had to come up with a better word for them, I would invent the word "olo". :-)

I suspect that either you're not in a position to be invited to such lunches and are envious or that for some reason you don't like eating in public.

How do you know this?

Hey, foamgnome, I have a couple of degrees in math as well. Geeks, unite!

I have no problem with moms breastfeeding when their kid is hungry. People get offended by so much these days, but I never found problems when I was nursing wherever it was (even at conferences where I had to ask organizers, etc.).
Yes, there are times when it is inappropriate, but for the most part, I don't think it is.

This was not some strike in the name of sisterhood or motherhood. The woman is an exhibitionist. The child could have been fed before or after her brief talk. My wife has far too much class to have done anything like this.

I live in Norway (but am myself American), and here breastfeeding is practically a religion. Last winter I was in a small (10-15 person) roundtable meeting that took up most of the day, about 4.5 hours in total. It was pretty informal, featuring a mix of researchers, human rights activists, policymakers, and a couple of Liberian activists who had flown in from Monrovia. One of the women attending the meeting was still on maternity leave (her child was 7 months, maternity leave here is long!), but was very interested in meeting the Liberian guests, so she came along with her son in tow. For most of the first couple hours, her son either slept or was minded by an intern in the office (I guess that's another discussion for another topic). But then he got hungry, and so the intern brought him into the meeting to his mom. The kid was fussing a bit, but calmed down once he started being breastfed. While all this was going on, one of the Liberian speakers was talking -- that's why the mom didn't want to leave, because she was interested in what he was saying. I was actually a bit concerned at this, as it was not a situation that would make most Norwegians uncomfortable but could potentially be disconcerting for people from other cultural environments. During the Q and A, the mom asked a question of the speaker, prefacing it with an apology for her son's fussiness and feeding. The speaker replied: "That's ok, we all have a human right to cry, and we all have a human right to eat!" I thought that was just awesome, both because he was so laid back about it, and also because what he said was so true. People don't tend to think of babies as humans with rights, but indeed, they also have a right to eat when hungry and express themselves when upset, just like the rest of us!

Leslie, here's a list of topics I'd like to see on the blog:

How parents handle before/after school care for school-age children -- I'd love to hear what's worked for others

Homeschooling

Kids in sports - I'm not there yet, but my neighbors seem to run themselves ragged trying to keep their kids involved, and it just blows any kind of balance out of the water

Finding good childcare -- tips for what to look for, questions to ask, the different kinds (in-home, daycare, etc.)

"Okay, anon at 8:28. I don't think you're in good company with that opinion, but what do I know? I suspect that either you're not in a position to be invited to such lunches and are envious or that for some reason you don't like eating in public. Either way, it happens every day in almost every company -- and even in federal buildings."

Righto, working lunches and Board presentations/Senate votes are 2 completely different things. And you think I'm envious that I don't go to working lunches????? I like knowing that I have time to myself (i.e. lunch).

Again, having a specific working lunch/brown bag seminar is one thing. Having a regular meeting and eating at it is another.

Off-topic..

But I think this would be a really interesting dicussion:

5) online college and graduate programs

(Good topics, foamgnome)

"Here's the future I hope for. A woman gets up to a microphone in a board meeting, or a client presentation, or a Senate vote, and whips out her baby at the same time she flicks on her Powerpoint slides. Can you see it? It might take 10 or 20 or 30 years, but I can."

Care to explain WHY? What will this prove? That women can breastfeed, wow - what a point. Should women pump at the podium too? How about breastfeed twins? How about juggle and breastfeed?

You are really reaching Leslie. If you want to herald breastfeeding at the podium as some kind of milestone for women then I am perplexed - what is end goal?

Here I am being politically incorrect again, with the mommy club in hot pursuit... leave your kids at home please. It's hard enough to focus attention on the tasks at hand with phone/cells/pagers/laptops making the office a 24/7 job -- do I have to help raise your kids, too? I'm frankly tired of it. If I am having a meeting with you and you're feeding your kid at the same time, do I have your full attention? Some people are pretty good at blending their children into the background, others, however, have a way of making, or even demanding, their kid be the center of attention wherever they are -- and this goes for men and women. I am your co-worker, a colleague, I'm not a part of your family.

If you are saying it's wrong to eat in a meeting -- period, I stand by my original assertion that it happens all the time and you're in a very small minority who thinks that way. If, however, you're saying that it's wrong to eat in a meeting when it's not specifically a lunch meeting, then I apologize and I misread your comments.

There is a lot of real estate between BF-ing your child at a "a working and stay-at-home moms' networking organization" and in the Senate, an accounting firm, a law firm, whatever. Maybe it's different for small businesses, I'm not sure as I have never worked at one, but BFing your child at any of those other above mentioned places means your child is there, and unless it is an emergency - they don't belong at work. They belong at elsewhere, so you can get your work done and return to them. I no more want to see a child in a professional work meeting than a person who brings in their own food (obviously I'm not referencing breakfast or lunch meetings), or a cell phone that is on, or someone who is blackberrying throughout the whole meeting. It is just another kind of distraction. Again - I reiterate that I have no idea how meetings, etc. play in small businesses, so this comment isn't inclusive of them.

I am not for or against limiting the number of children voluntarily. I obviously don't think we need legal mandates on the number of children American families can have. But I am always surprised by the multi kid families and the parents say they run themselves ragged. It makes me wonder why they had more then one, more than two, more then three etc... Clearly each family needs to decide for themselves. But there is a major cultural back lash against only children in this country. Even though the vast majoritiy of only children families by choice, seem to be doing for balance. I just think it is an interesting angle on balance. We have one child and for many years only wanted one child. But we have finally decided to pursue a second child. Most of our issues with one child came down to balancing work and family life. I was shocked at the outrage that decision has caused my family. Perfect strangers come right up to us and tell us it is wrong to have one child. Now in the end, we have decided to add another child through adoption. But our balance came with spacing our children out 4 or 5 years apart. A lot different then the 2-3 years that most families find ideal. I am still amazed at the two working parents with 3 or more kids. Some seem to do it well while others seem like everyone is being short changed.

I hate bring your kid to work day!!! All of the poor secretaries in my office end up having to watch the kids while their parents take actual meetings and calls.

"If, however, you're saying that it's wrong to eat in a meeting when it's not specifically a lunch meeting, then I apologize and I misread your comments."

Not a problem. Yes, people should (and do) eat during a lunch meeting (otherwise it would be cruel to schedule a non-eating lunch meeting). However, in other meetings, eating should not happen.

thoughtful comments already and I haven't even finished my coffee...

foamgnome-I agree with everything you wrote. Why would religion-based home schooling get a free pass? I would think everyone had to toe the knowledge line-especially math.

BF in public-where is Fred? I'm glad this woman did what she did and I think that is what Leslie is saying-here is a professional and she is doing this in semi-public (hey, it would be public if there were mixed-genders and not so focused a group) as a matter of course. We've come a long way, baby. I do agree, however, that BFing in a meeting can be, at best, problematic. Oslo had a good experience, but I know, engineers wouldn't be so kind. I myself wouldn't have done what she did. I would have fed the baby beforehand.

Leslie - Please read the excellent topics of discussion that are being suggested from the past week by various posters.

How many more breast-feeding days can we take? Now it is extreme-breastfeeding - sounds like a reality show.

"I hate bring your kid to work day!!! All of the poor secretaries in my office end up having to watch the kids while their parents take actual meetings and calls."

Around here, it tends to be the secretaries who bring in their kids. The others don't and get distracted by the kids running around.

Online graduate programs-

I go to an accredited university that has an online program. We meet once a week using a program called breeze, microphones, and a web cam. The work load is the same as any other college program. At times it is difficult to coordinate group work, but it is a lot easier than trying to balance going to a campus with work and kids.

Foamgnome, I don't understand who these perfect strangers are who express their feelings to you on such a personal issue. Other posters have talked about this, too, how they've been accosted by people they barely know and read the riot act on something or other. I don't know people like this in my life. I think I must be a boring person or something. Certainly I haven't led a blameless life, so that can't be it.

If someone came up to me and unsolicited tried to give me advice on such a thing, I'd try to be polite but if they continued, I'd say "Do you really and truly believe this is any of your business?" I mean, come on!

If we're proposing topics, how about the article in the NYT yesterday about sex-selection by parents before the woman gets pregnant.......

What tripe! As female professional who has worked hard to perform and achieve in previously men's territory, I can't think of anything more repugnant than this constant whining suck-up among women wanting to play mommy wet nurse in public. It's offensive and unnecessary. (I don't like it when mothers try to work in a quick diaper change in restaurant booths either.) Breastfeeders should learn to use common sense to avoid distracting scenese in public places. I

Eggheaded Philosophical Question here:

Do we want "balance" or do we want a "blend"?

I always see "balance" as this concept of the scale with Work on one side and Family on the other. Maybe that's primarily a Dad perspective, I don't know.

This posting seems to have Leslie rejoicing in some future "blend" of work and family, where it becomes the norm to have BF'ing going on all over the workplace as a common activity.

It seems to me that we have been talking about "balance" on this blog -- with balance necessarily involving the juxtaposition of two (or more) things. Are we (or is Leslie) now talking about merging the Work environment with the Home environment (kids on-hand to BF)?

I can't see a good argument to merge Home and the Workplace (assuming you do not work at home).

(I understand and have no issues with pumping, so for the purposes of this question please distinguish between pumping and BF'ing.)

-Pp.

I found this story off-putting for a different reason--I thought giving a presentation and feeding the baby simultaneously was rude, not to the crowd, but to the baby. I think of the time I spend nursing as the best time to pay attention to my daughter. It seemed inconsiderate to me, rather like eating dinner with a friend and talking on the phone to someone else the whole time.
Now at work I pump and am doing non-baby things at that time, so perhaps that is a better comparison, but when the baby's there in person it seems rude not to pay attention to him/her. Maybe we're taking multitasking a bit too far, when we don't devote ourselves wholeheartedly to whatever we're doing at that time, be it giving a presentation or nursing a baby.

People are strange and in the world we live today common curtesy and politness seems to be a thing of the past. It doesn't really bother me that strangers tell me that I am robbing my child of a sibling. Or that when teachers say everything that is "wrong" with DD is because she is an only child. BTW, DD got her progress report and she failed at taking turns and cleaning up. I just know that people think it is because she is an only child. But also friends and family members love to give their 2 cents on the matter. My mother, a devout Catholic, literally cried when I told her we wanted one child. She still thinks my DD will magically start talking in full sentences when her sister arrives. Most likely she will anyway because our adoption will take 2 years to complete. Not because a new baby will simulate a desire to make conversation. Dotted- My only guess why religious home schoolers get a pass is because they don't want to infringe on subjects like Creationism versus Evolution. I don't think it was meant to say don't teach poetry or math. Some parents just think, hey free pass is a free pass.

Your guess is the same as mine, but hey, if the state mandates public school must teach one way, then why should anyone else get a free pass? I would think religious home schoolers would include teaching in religion, not avoid subjects. But this may be opening up a blog item that I don't want to get into at all. have a great day foamgnome.

RE: bring your kids to work day. I don't do it because I would never get anything done. Since I am only in the office 2-3 days a week I look forward to the professional, non-kid environment when I am there.

I do bring my daughter in once year to sell GS cookies, she is there about an hour. I make her do the selling, wear her vest and answer all the questions. Most people know her and quite a few buy, some say no, some won't even look her in the eye.

We had a mother bring in her sick kid 2 days in a row because her daycare wouldn't take a kid with a fever. It was inappropriate and inconsiderate and was immediatly addressed.

I nursed all three of my children, and I loved every moment of doing so. This time was a very special time for my babies and me to bond with each other. It was a time for verbal communication with my babies and a time for developing close emotional and social ties TO THE BABY. When you use breastfeeding as a means to make a social commentary or as a means of rebellion against perceived injustices against a certain group of women (i.e., nursing mothers), you have taken away some of the most important benefits of the nursing activity. Could you think about the baby rather than always thinking of yourselves?

to all - lots of good ideas for columns, I totally agree we need some new ideas. One other idea - ease up on the First! postings, that's getting a little old...

Foamgnome-Yes, by all means, let's have national standards for homeschoolers-they've worked so well for public schools! Sure, there are homeschooling parents who do nothing with their kids-there are also many 'schooled' children whose parents do nothing, don't supervise homework, etc. Get over yourself.

Also, the word is breastfeed-one word, not two.

Don't see what the big deal is. I bf in public when my daughter needs it. I have no idea whether I've had funny looks or not, and I can't remember anyone saying anything (but then I would just ignore it anyway). Daughter needed to eat, she ate. And, yes, it is amazing how you can multitask, even with a complete wriggler like mine. When you have a baby, you suddenly become capable of doing about 20 things at one time, so bfing and giving a presentation at the same time sounds pretty easy.

Other posting idea:

How much (if any) should parents contribute to their kids' college education? Do you feel like you're "obligated" to provide your child an education, do you feel this is more the child's responsibility, or are you somewhere in the middle (e.g., help out when you can)?

We have the smug bottlefeeders and childless who gripe and moan on blogs but are too afraid to say what they really feel in public because they know medical science backs up the other side.

Righto, talk about smug. I've never been afraid to say in public that public breastfeeding is exhibitionist and the behavior described in the column today is off-putting. The other side, as you put it, isn't breastfeeding, generally -- it's the militant natalist, in-your-face, my baby doesn't want a blanket over it, public breastfeeders.

Medical science does not have a damn thing to say in support of exhibitionism or forcing your motherhood down the throats of participants at a meeting.

Find somewhere else to spew your condescension.

How about balancing rigorous academic schedules with social scehdules, family time schedules and alone time. I find it very difficult to even cook dinner some nights I am so bushed from rushing all over the place....pancakes & eggs on those nights.

"I've never been afraid to say in public that public breastfeeding is exhibitionist and the behavior described in the column today is off-putting."

Yes, but 9:39, apparently you're afraid to sign even with a pseudonym.

I don't understand. Why would you want to whip out your breast and start breastfeeding your baby in the middle of the board room meeting?

ilc - I would say, I am somewhere in the middle. I certainly think my priority is my retirement. I will help my kids if I can, but I think they will value their education that much more if they have to pay for it (or part of it), even if I could afford it.

We hope to have many kids, so I'd rather have a housefull of kids than only have 1 or 2 with fully paid college tuitions.

Re. college

If you're not going to save for your kids, at least let them know before High School. It was quite the shocker when I was applying to schools in my senior year and found out I didn't have a dollar in a college fund. I could have been preparing myself better. Dropped the idea to go to an expensive 4 year school and went to a community college to save on cost. Then transferred into a 4 year private school, where I double-majored and got out 3 years later. With all the loans. Thankfully, I paid them every month regardless of how little a salary I had, and while going to a state graduate school. Then I moved to Maryland after I got a job on the Hill and the job paid off the balance, so they were paid off in less then 10 years, but still were a little bit of a burden.

Oh, I am an only child, had to use cloth diapers (I was allergic to the plastic ones they had in the early 70's), and didn't breastfeed. I think I turned out all right!

Yes, new topics please! I laughed when I saw cmac's comment of extreme breast-feeding...she is so right...that topic is covered ad nauseam on this blog, and it's so tiring at this point.

Let's clear the air a little here: this was a WORK SITUATION FOR LESLIE ONLY. If you go to the WMG site, you'll she was promoting her "Mommy Wars" book as part of a lecture series that other people paid to attend.

So please let's stop the comparisons to eating at meetings to a minimum. Think instead if you went to a book signing by your favorite author and the manager of the bookstore was breastfeeding while introducing the author. Or you went to a lecture hosted by the Smithsonian RAP and a member of the Smithsonian staff breastfed their child when introducing the speaker. Perhaps some people find that professional, but I do not.

To me, this smells of an opportunistic PR stunt. I'm sure the leader of the WMG knew fully well that the group would get mentioned in today's blog by breastfeeding her baby at the podium during Leslie's intro. My question is is this woman going to do the same when she introduces Michael Isikoff's lecture today on his book about the Iraq war?

And to foamgnome: I absolutely agree - let's start seeing some other topics.

We could sit here and go around and around about breastfeeding yet again but what's the point?

I know I've sent in a few topics and I've been roundly ignored. I think it's become painfully clear in the last few months that Leslie doesn't really want to talk about anything she doesn't want to talk about.

I just have to comment that I'm so tired of the "calling out" of people who sign as anonymous . . . ummm, we're all anonymous here. Unless I put my full name and identifying information, a pseudonym makes no difference. It is not going to help you identify me more readily.

So "funny bunny" and "pink plate" (only using those b/c those are the last two before I posted) is no more telling to me than anonymous.

Perhaps those of you so turned off by the anonymous ones should start your own board where you have to sign in with full, identifying information.

Sorry if this seems coming from out of nowhere. That is my fault as I've been annoyed with this for awhile.

Lou brought up a great point -- the need to balance saving for college with saving for retirement. However, if you start saving early for both, I think it's easier. I'm in a unique situation because I've got a step in college and preschoolers at home. We are paying for college and we consider it an investment both for us and for the step -- I don't want a bird returning to the nest and unable to stand on it's own two feet, if you catch my drift. (And yes, I feel the same way about my other two, it's not just my step.) At the same time, we're saving as much as we can for retirement and doing 529s for the younger ones. So as far as I can tell, I work to pay for childcare, save for retirement, and pay for college. But that's okay with me.

This is completely and thoroughly disgusting. Have a little consideration for your audience. Maybe this chick got a charge out of whipping out a boob in front of people, but many people are embarrassed by this stuff. If you're going to be so open about EVERYTHING, why not just take down the walls of public bathrooms and everybody can watch everybody else on the can. Now, isn't that just a wonderful, warm and fuzzy sight?

To Leslie:

Shame on you by the way. Perhaps the WMG is a networking group, but its web site represents it as a lecture series. That networking happens is natural - intellectual stimulation among people who share an educational experience will generate conversation.

But it's a paid lecture series. You were promoting your book. Be honest please!

Does "liberation" mean that we can do absolutely anything we want, anywhere we want, whenever we want? Even if it does, does it mean that we should?

Motherhood and breastfeeding are wonderful. So is sex. Not everything that is wonderful is prudent and appropriate in every setting. "There is a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing."

Does being a feminist mean that we should feel free to whip out a breast whenever we want, as obviously as we want. I have no desire to push nursing women into some back corner, but come on.

Is there something in this posting that explains why breastfeeding should be treated differently than anything else? I didn't see it. Does it matter why we whip out a breast? Can it be done for some other reasons - say, "I think I may have found a lump, see?"

paying for college? Well, after contributing for two already and two more to go, let me say: retirement comes first, college second. Loans are available for college, not for retirement. Further, it should be the child's responsibility to get good grades to help pay for college, etc. I'm certainly never going to write a blank check for college, weddings, cars, etc.

Kids and work don't mix. Period.

We had a mother bring in her sick kid 2 days in a row because her daycare wouldn't take a kid with a fever. It was inappropriate and inconsiderate and was immediatly addressed.

Posted by: cmac | February 7, 2007 09:11 AM

wow, cmac, that's a new low for inconsiderate and unprofessional behavior.

Babies do not belong everywhere, despite the fact some people bring them everywhere. A work situation (i.e., slide presentation, speech, group meeting) is not appropriate for a baby, whether or not there is breastfeeding going on. Please, there's a time and place for everything and breastfeeding while giving a speech isn't it.

I brought up the 'pay for your kids' college or not' question because reading a Color of Money transcript got a little testy:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2006/12/20/DI2006122001135.html

"And, yes, it is amazing how you can multitask, even with a complete wriggler like mine. When you have a baby, you suddenly become capable of doing about 20 things at one time, so bfing and giving a presentation at the same time sounds pretty easy."

Ridiculous. That's about as absurd as me saying that since I have a new fence in my yard I can fly. Having a child doesn't give you magic multitasking abilities, it just makes you oblivious to the nuisance you create when you annoy and inconvenience everyone around you. You don't change diapers faster when you talk on your cell phone, you just don't notice that you dropped that dirty wipe on the floor.

Next, in terms of this whole breastfeeding at the client meeting/presentation question, aside from the other arguments about whether it's distracting/rude/necessary, what about the obvious one? WHY IS YOUR KID AT THE OFFICE IN THE FIRST PLACE? Didn't we just discuss the FMLA? USE IT!! Go home! Take care of your kid! But please don't bring that germ-infested, stinking, vomit machine near me and my expensive office attire.

I have living creatures in my house that require constant care. They require affection, training, feeding, exercise, etc. They cry when I leave. They are happy when I return. They play with me. They socialize with others. They experience joy, frustration, pain, hunger, and exhaustion (about the range of a breastfeeding baby). Why can't I bring my dogs to work? At least they sit when I tell them to, and the secretary doesn't have to watch them while I go to a meeting. Plus, they can be crated to limit their movement. So why not? How is it different?

Next, in terms of human rights, it was an interesting statement a previous poster made about the Liberian delegation who noted, "We all have a human right to cry, we all have a human right to eat." Bravo! Couldn't be truer. Now, don't we all have a "human right" to urinate? Why can't I, in the middle of a four-hour meeting, just squat and let loose? Why is one of THE most natural of bodily functions (even the childless do it!) prohibited in a meeting? I can bring a chamber pot. I will be careful and do it away from everyone else, and I promise you'll have my full attention...

Finally, do people really still care about breastfeeding in public? Is it really that big of a deal? I find this "up-at-the-podium" display more cliché than anything else. Who cares anymore?

Oh look, breastfeeding at a mom's convention. Didn't see that one coming. Everybody quick, let's all give a one-boob salute to the new Rosa Parks...

Wow WorkingMomX that's alot on your plate! I have a friend who is paying into VA prepaid college program for her 2 and 5 year old daughters. The monthly payment for the 5 year old is around $300 and for the 2 year old close to $600. Why aren't we talking about rising college costs, etc instead of breastfeeding again?

I agree with the posters who are interested in time management strategies for sports and activities.

Leslie, I agree with the consensus - the presenter was grandstanding. After all, would she have bottle-fed her baby while giving the introduction? THe baby could have waited five minutes to be fed after the woman gave the intro and sat down.

I also agree with foamgnome's comments about home schooling. What happens when these kids want to go to college and they've never been taught any (pick a subject) so they can't pass the SATs? Makes me wonder why none of them have ever sued the state Bd of Education!

I'm begininng to come around to breastfeeding in public. Personally, I feel that it should be a private act, and I would never breastfeed in front of strangers. But I understand that some women really want to. I can live and let live (i.e., I just ignore them). However, I would not want to be exposed to that at the office or at a meeting. It certainly has no place in the office, just like moms feeding 5 year olds has no place in the office. The simple fact is that there are other options for feeding babies that do not make other people uncomfortable.

As to whether people should feel uncomfortable (and maybe that's what this mother was rebelling against--forcing people to confront it), I think it's a silly thing to fight. Of course it's a natural thing, and that's what the breast was made for, but there are lots of natural things that bodies do that make people uncomfortable. I don't have to be specific. Why not just do your best to not make a scene? I don't know, maybe that's my issue.

Hey Leslie, show some respect for the female anatomy - it is not a "boob" it is a breast. What, by most understanding, is the definition of "boob". Why would you use such a derogatory remark about your own body. Why - are you some young frat boy? Do you think of yourself as a "boob". Why do women have such self-hatred?

If you are going to bring food, you should bring enough to share.
LOL
Seriously, it is fine, but I would not hope to see this in a professional setting. Feeding an infant is one thing, but creating a scene at a board meeting and flaunting your breasts just for the sake of doing so for a feeling of liberation is another when you can just as easily not create a distraction. If you get fired for poor job skills and performance, you can always play the card that people do not respect your rights to show your boobs and feed your baby- which I am sure many would take advantage of. That said, I will now say something I am sure to be slammed for even more- I think seeing quote unquote boobs might keep more people attentive in meetings, if not attentive of the actual purpose of the meeting. Someone already said it is exhibitionism- that is true- at least cover up. You know your breasts are sexual. It is just part of our society and you know it! If you can whip them out, then you should be prepared for guys to rally for their right to whip their sexual parts out as well... oh wait, we would be labeled pigs if we did something like that. What is the female equivalent then? As we can not have it both ways, you should at least be conservative and cover up a bit more and not flaunt it!

It's old stats, but homeschooled kids seem to fair pretty well on the SAT:

http://www.hslda.org/docs/news/hslda/200105070.asp

"paying for college? Well, after contributing for two already and two more to go, let me say: retirement comes first, college second. Loans are available for college, not for retirement. Further, it should be the child's responsibility to get good grades to help pay for college, etc. I'm certainly never going to write a blank check for college, weddings, cars, etc.

Posted by: dotted | February 7, 2007 09:56 AM"

Agreed, however as I have said before the best present my parents ever gave me was a college education. I had zero loans. Granted they could afford it, and given the rise in cost of college I am not sure I can do the same.

We have agressively save for college and retirement since the kids were born (98 and 01). Every year when I get a raise each kid and retirement fund gets a raise - I too work for savings. This year older daughter's contribution stays the same. In a couple years younger son's goes stagnant too. We can only do so much. We'll still be putting money away for them but not as aggressively.

As the experts say: You can take out loans for college but not for retirement.

What are thoughts on 529 plans? Education IRA's?

to Vienna mom "Did you have to use the word boob? I think this is part of the reason why people have issues about nursing in public...."

What's wrong with boob? Go to England. Look for a store called Bravissimo. They sell bras. In their advertising, seen clearly and plainly from the street, you'll see unapologetically the word "boob". There's no reason for Americans to be so prudish about this particular euphemism. If I had to equate it, I'd say it's similar to "butt"... definitely not the most eloquent of descriptors, but neither a four letter word.

As far as college is concerned, we save for both retirement and college together. WE probably could have more for retirement if we did not plan our DDs education but we looked at the numbers and decided we would have more then enough for college as well as her education. But we are limiting the number of children based on a lot of things. Money would be one of them. Time is the bigger issue. I don't understand people who don't tell their kids that they have no intention of paying for college. I also agree with Dotted, that getting the best grades you are capable of is the child's responsibility. I say capable of because DD has already been identified with some learning disabilities. If she even goes to a CC or a state school, I will be thrilled. If she comes out with all Cs and did her best, I would still support her a 100%.

Yep, I agree- let us all urinate if we need to. Holding on to our urine is unhealthy. If you can breast feed in public I should be able to whip it out and pee in a container in public. In fact, women should be able to urinate in public too! Equal rights for ALL! As long as you have a chamber pot you can seal there should be nothing wrong with it. How is that for equal exhibitionist rights? It really puts this column in perspective. How about giving an introduction while peeing?

Posted by: cmac | February 7, 2007 09:11 AM

wow, cmac, that's a new low for inconsiderate and unprofessional behavior.

Posted by: NC lawyer | February 7, 2007 09:57 AM

The worst part is the whole office had to be lectured on the policy of kids at work at a brown bag lunch. One stupid lady and we all pay a price. How about distributing a memo?

Outspoken: These kids, as you call them, come from a variety of homeschooling environments as inconsistent as the many public and private school environments. While some of them get an excellent education, some others do not. Each state has its own rules with respect to standards testing applicable to homeschoolers and there are several well-reguarded standardized testing vehicles that the majority of homeschooling parents employ in order to indicate performance. Even a casual glance at the research on college performance outcomes indicates that "these kids" consistently outperform the average college-bound public school graduate. Before you make gross generalizations on a topic, and if you are interested in accuracy, consider a cursory amount of research.

cmac-
are you aware (and I guess you are) colleges take the first dollar (100%) from kids money, including money you've saved in their name? If you save for retirement, colleges don't consider it. If you save somewhere else, colleges consider only 35% of it. Same $ is considered differently by colleges.

It is also rude to ask people at work to buy things your kids sell.

Wow, Leslie's taking a beating today. I feel the need to say something positive.

I bet she has nice shoes.

Personally, I will not breastfeed in public. I will retreat to a private area. Imagine a woman popping out her boob and breastfeeding her infant in a major presentation or in a board meeting before both men and women - not appropriate in my view. Maybe I'm being too conservative but, really, is this necessary? To me, even if the breastfeeder is comfortable doing this in public, what if her colleagues are not? Breastfeeding should be done in private or at the least in the presence of other women, in my view.

Actually, Leslie reported something rather cool...as I said back at 8:59. It certainly would never have happened back when I had babies (the veritable stone age).

Would a guy, or anyone for that matter, peeing in public make you uncomfortable? Would it offend if it was done at a board meeting, or would it detract? I should be able to whip it out and pee if I need to and if you have a problem with it, too bad- especially if you are exposing your breasts. Oggle all you like though. Maybe I can claim sexual harrassment for it. If someone happens to shake more than a couple times while you are exposing yourself, it is pure coincidence. LOL. OK, that is enough for me. This topic is too absurd. Senators? They have enough bad behavior to worry about as it is. Do we really want them focusing even less on their professional responsibilities?

I met one of my daughter's friends this weekend. She has homeschooled herself since 9th grade. (She's in 12th now.) Her story about how she spends her days was completely SHOCKING to me. She is required to take an at-home, open book, however long it takes you test once a year. By her own admission, she is big-time lacking in science and math. She said she just hated getting up in the morning and that her parents said "OK" when she asked to school herself.

Dotted, I'm intrigued. Are you talking about pre-tax money, or are you talking about what the government considers when doling out financial aid and scholarships? I guess I don't understand the context of your post to cmac (although maybe I should C my way out of your A and B conversation).

topic I'd like to see - how to deal with the mind-numbing guilt of taking my inability to deal with my balance issues out on my daughter (letting your stress affect your parenting)

please no "own my decision and get over it" comments, I really need some suggestions and I think an overall discussion on this would be helpful to more than just me

Since I started it...

I dont' have kids, but I did put myself through college (both undergrad and grad). My parents couldn't afford to put me through, but I knew that. And really, it was no big deal.

I went to a stae school and lived at home the first couple of years. I then moved out and went to school part-time, taking out student loans to pay for school (I worked while doing this, so that paid for housing).

During grad school, I worked at this non-profit that paid us very little BUT they had a fantastic tuition assistance program and I paid nearly nothing for my graduate degree.

I think I ended up with about $7,000 in student loans (mostly from undergrad) when all was said and done, and those were paid when we sold our house.

My (rambling) point is I personally don't feel parents need to kill themselves to ensure their kids' college is paid for AND there's no need for anyone to go into massive debt (being the parent or the kid).

I realize my situation is my alone and others will have different ones, but with some planning, college expenses can be pretty tame.

cmac-
are you aware (and I guess you are) colleges take the first dollar (100%) from kids money, including money you've saved in their name? If you save for retirement, colleges don't consider it. If you save somewhere else, colleges consider only 35% of it. Same $ is considered differently by colleges.

Posted by: dotted | February 7, 2007 10:11 AM

yes, that is why about 50% of their money is in our name in tax-free municipal bonds. The more money they have in their name the less they will qualify for.

And ANON:

It is also rude to ask people at work to buy things your kids sell.

Posted by: anon | February 7, 2007 10:11 AM

I think it teaches a kid nothing to tape a girl scout cookie form to the lunch room refrigerator at a parent's place of employment. I cleared it with the HR lady and an annual visit from a GS is hardly rude. Most people like kids, just not at the office all the time. If they don't want to buy cookies they just say no.

Perhaps you would have been one of the ones that would not have been able to look a kid in the eye. Kid's learn rejection from jerks everywhere, an office is no different.

foamgnome-

I just wanted to say that I agree there is a perfect number for every family and others need to respect that choice. I am also wondering if the same people who comment on your choice to have one child are the same as the ones who question my knowledge of birth control upon seeing me and my 5 children out in public. I am constantly amazed by the things that come out of peoples mouths-especially in front of the kids. My oldest is 8 and said she feels like a "freak show" when we all go out together because everyone stares at us.

On to the topic at hand...I have no problem with breastfeeding in public. I have done so with each of my children. However, there is a big difference between a park bench and the podium in a board meeting. I don't think that is a place for a baby to be period. Leave your children in the care of someone loving and qulified and go to work. If you don't want to do that, stay home.

As Michelle Singletary explains it, 529 plans in the child's name are considered a parental asset. This is the logical place to invest for college savings, since it grows tax-free.

How entirely inappropriate for someone to breast feed at a meeting - unless it is a La Leche League or similar theme meeting. If there is any possibility that anyone would mind, this should not happen. First of all, if it a professional type meeting, the kid shouldn't even be there.
Truthfully, though, if it was a situation where it was alright, bottle-feeding wouldn't bother me in the least. Breast-feeding should be done in private only - it is inappropriate in any type of public space. No matter how natural or whatever. Pump the stuff and put it in a bottle if you have to feed the kid in public.
I can't believe that Leslie thinks that it would be remotely professional to breast-feed during any type of meeting. Get real - more accommodations for pumping will become reality in the workplace, but actual breastfeeding will never be accepted as the norm in 99% of workplaces. Ugh.

I'm with Leslie on this one. Hurray for those of us courageous enough to breastfeed in public. I refuse to be relegated to feeding my baby in a bathroom or coat room, just as I resent being forced to leave a meeting, luncheon, brownbag or social occasion to breastfeed. I travel frequently for work and I am always impressed with my international coleagues who are welcome (and even encouraged) to bring their infants into the work place with them, and who don't bat an eye at breastfeeding in public.

As for using our pseudonyms versus not signing your posts the difference is when you have a name to respond to you can create a dialogue and we can filter their comments through the prespective of whether they are usually a joker, usually fair, usually rude, what they have previously revealed of their background,etc.

"Further, it should be the child's responsibility to get good grades to help pay for college, etc."

Agreed, but I don't buy the connection between good grades and paying for college. My grades in high school and SATs were excellent (only saying because it's directly relevant to the conversation) and got me a quick early admission acceptance letter, and not a dime of financial aid or grant money other than the inadequate Pell grant, since I went to a state school. My parents' income was just over the line of what would have qualified me for financial aid or work study, but they didn't contribute one red cent to my education. So I worked in restaurants all through undergrad (and my undergrad grades reflect the inherent conflict between 2 a.m. closing shifts and 8 a.m. spanish classes), and graduated with a then-whopping $10K (in early '80s dollars) in debt. I graduated during a recession, ended up in sales and admittedly stayed in one relationship longer than I otherwise would have because my then-boyfriend was making my car payments. The 8 year old car with 100,000+ miles on it that I needed in order to go to work to pay off that damned education debt.

Yes, grades are the child's responsibility but good grades may not result in any financial contribution from a public institution. Granted, you can typically shop your good grades at a private school but I didn't want to be the poorest kid in some chi-chi environment where I was the only one who couldn't afford Spring Break in Cancun.

No parent owes her children an education free and clear, but let's not be delusional about the impact of undergraduate debt on our childrens' life choices. Good grades may or may not have any $$ attached to them.

I really don't get the Color of Money articles/discussions. I stopped reading them when the columnist revealed she is a "submissive" wife and defers to her husband in situations where they can't agree - if that's true, then I'll ask him for advice on financial matters! Also, she said she wouldn't "allow" her kids to go to a college where they had to take out loans to attend. She claims she would only "allow" her kids to go to a college she and her husband can pay for outright or state school, etc., but even if that 18 year old adult got into Stanford, Penn, etc. and had to take out loans to go, she wouldn't "allow" them. At that point, isn't the 18 year old an adult and able to make their own decisions, especially where they THEMSELVES would be taking on the burden of loans, and not expecting their parents to pay?

I have a lot of meeting today.

(my excuse for not even getting entangled in the breastfeeding-presentation discussion)

Fredia used to bf all the time at her job. She would bring the baby everyday!

TO: Righto |

You are speaking of working meetings, amongst colleagues. A relaxed environment. Leslie was describing a seminar, a presentation - eating and meeting do not mix! Very unprofessional and insulting for this or any kind of disruption.

Even if water/coffee is provided at the meeting, breastfeeding is not acceptable. NEVER. (BTW, I breastfed.)

Other than a seminar on breastfeeding - - what on earth are babies/children doing at a meeting? I work at a very progressive company where children are welcome in the workplace, but never taken into a meeting. Period.

Kid's learn rejection from jerks everywhere, an office is no different.

Anyone who doesn't want bothered by kids selling trans fat laden cookies at work are jerks. Nice.

Since OR mom mentioned it...

I worked 2 - 3 jobs while in college and also never went on spring break. My spring breaks were a 30 - 40 hour work week back home since my retail job afforded me the ability to work in two different states. Consequently, I feel like I missed out on some of college (when I was a way) because I was either working or in class or doing work for class.

Hasn't the whole breastfeeding topic been discussed like 529 times already on this blog? I know finding new topics is hard but how many times does Leslie have to regurgitate the same subjects?

I don't even need to read todays blog to know the roughly 153 people will write that 'breast is best' and mothers should feed whereever and whenever they want.
Another 114 will say yes breastfeeding is good but lets have some common curtisy. Not every wants to or is comfortable with seeing you feed your child. 59 people will relpy that breastfeeding is natural and beautiful and anyone who is uncomfortable with it is an anti-feminist, anti-family terrorist or needs to seek mental treatment help for thier personal issues. 29 people will write to say that not everyone can breastfeed for medical or personal reasons and it's inconsiderate to throw breastfeeding in thier face or make them feel like second class mothers. 3 posters will respond that they want to see womens breasts whereever, whenever, and however they can. Throw in a handful of post picking on oneanother for how someone else worded their post (especially Leslie's use of boob) and the unavoidagle I'm right and your wrong post and ahandful of 'why can't we all get along, agree to disagree, and respect eachother post.

Bye now...I be back some other day when we have a new topic.

"Here's the future I hope for. A woman gets up to a microphone in a board meeting, or a client presentation, or a Senate vote, and whips out her baby at the same time she flicks on her Powerpoint slides."

This is the future Leslie hopes for? Ugh.

I hope for a future in which, even thirty years from now, it's not acceptable for a female presenter to chew gum, adjust garments, put nail polish on that run in her pantyhose, have her progeny anywhere in the building, or engage in any other behavior that distracts said female from the board meeting, client presentation or Senate vote in which she is privileged to participate.

This is exactly the wrong message to send to men about opening the boardroom and the Senate. Until women mean business, they deserve to be excluded from these activities.

cw:

Thank you! This topic does come up much too often - what about what is going on in CA with the law that will ban spanking? Maybe its not a 'balance' issue, but it isn't any further off topic than some of the other columns here.

Maybe I just don't understand but I'm a woman whose been around children and family members who breastfeed and honestly i think its rather inappropriate...not breastfeeding but the part of that where your in public and your unbuttoning your shirt to do something that i think should be private. It would make me uncomfortable if someone did that in front of me let alone in a meeting.

Bye now...I be back some other day when we have a new topic.

Posted by: cw | February 7, 2007 10:36 AM

cw, in the time it took you to craft your post, you could have read the entire blog and found out you were, um, ENTIRELY WRONG about its contents. Official column? rehash of a rehash of a more extreme rehash. new topics raised by participants? intereting and different. come back and play some time, y'hear?

"Here's the future I hope for. A woman gets up to a microphone in a board meeting, or a client presentation, or a Senate vote, and whips out her baby at the same time she flicks on her Powerpoint slides."

Funny - this is the same future that millions of adolescent boys are hoping for (or at least a small piece of it). Puts Leslie in some pretty strange company.

I totally agree. I think Michelle is totally off-base about college spending--and I also think she's totally off-base about how to pay down student loans that are locked in at low interest rates. (That was from the same transcript.) She's so averse to debt that I'm not sure she really understands how to be smart about managing student costs as an investment in your future.

momof5: My guess it is the same people. My friend works and has 4 kids. When she goes out in public, she hears the very worst comments. Everything from don't you know how to use BC to why didn't you get an abortion. They also assume that she is on welfare. That is a laugh and a half because they are a two income professional family who can support all four of their kids. I have heard very bad things too. Like we must be having one child because we regret DD, or that we are too selfish and want all the $$ for ourselves, or we want to spoil the snot out of DD. Some people also assume every one can have child number 2. We are coming into some real road blocks in our adoption. If the adoption plans falls through, DD will be an only child by default because I am getting older and we don't want to take risks due to my advanced maternal age. I am just amazed how many people (strangers) feel the need to tell people how they feel about personal decisions. Also all the assumptions about people. Like a large family must be on welfare, small families must really hate kids.

Well, Michelle S's "submissive to her husband" and anti-debt attitudes are religiously based, rather than financially based. It's good to keep that in mind.

Posted by: Divorced mom of 1 | February 7, 2007 10:26 AM

"As for using our pseudonyms...we can filter their comments through the prespective of whether they are usually a joker, usually fair, usually rude, what they have previously revealed of their background,etc."

Right. That's how we should approach things...

Instead of dealing with what a person writes on its own, we should "filter" it (ignore it) because we think we know enough about them to write off what they say based on a few posts on a blog.

Maybe you're just a bitter divorcee who can't spell "perspective," and we should all ignore you? See how easy that is? Now I've negated you and what you had to say by using my "filter."

It is always simpler to push aside points of view you can't reconcile with your own than to explore their possible legitimacy. But then, what do you ever learn, and how do you ever change?

Maybe that's why some people use anonymous posting. Maybe someone wants to make a serious point, and is worried that his/her message might get lost because of the "filters" some folks have.

Its nice having a few breastfeeding mommies around during the board meeting, especially when the coffee kit runs out of creamer.

I'm sorry, I'm a mom and I've both BF'd and bottle fed, and my reaction was one of "wow, that's completely inappropriate." I feel like the speaker at your lunch was simply doing it to make a point, as others have said, being an exhibitionist. And I also feel that in most workplaces, children do not belong. I have never taken my daughter to my office during the workday (only twice on the weekends, when I left something at the office, and also when we have our annual Halloween celebration for the kids.) It's just disrespectful to your co-workers who are also trying to do their jobs with minimal distractions, and it's counter-productive for you as well. So do I want to see a CEO giving a board presentation while BFing? No! Absolutely not.

"Well, Michelle S's "submissive to her husband" and anti-debt attitudes are religiously based, rather than financially based. It's good to keep that in mind."
I do, that's why I don't particularly dislike her, I just chose not to read her columns because the religious beliefs she is using to inspire her financial ones are not ones I agree with. For example, I think she has a religious motivation for thinking debt is imprisonment (and for most people, I think it certainly can be), but for educated folks, if you can go to Stanford and draw out your loans at 2 or 3%, and save money at 5 or 6%, to me, that is a viable option. Especially when the asset you are paying down is a Stanford education. But I realize that there are many people who disagree with this.

Watching my wife breastfeed all four of ours, I just got used to it and it doesn't particularly bother me. I don't attach any particular significance to a woman breastfeeding a baby in public.

My general view on this sort of thing is that, if it's appropriate for children to be around, than a nursing baby is fine. If it's an appropriate situation for people to be eating, then nursing during that time is fine.

If it would be considered inappropriate to have children there (e.g., you tend not to bring kids to meetings with paying clients), or if it's inappropriate for anyone to be eating (CEO of a former employer forbade any eating or drinking in his boardroom; the tables, chairs and carpets cost a large fortune), then breastfeeding is inappropriate.

In the situation cited by Leslie, I agree with other posters that it was grandstanding, because I normally think that it's inappropriate for anybody giving a presentation to be either eating or feeding somebody else during the presentation.

I wish we could take these blog posts and send them back in time so people could realize what idiots the human race turns into. The human body and how it functions is never gross. I feel ashamed for America for being so Puritanical.

Kid's learn rejection from jerks everywhere, an office is no different.

Anyone who doesn't want bothered by kids selling trans fat laden cookies at work are jerks. Nice.

Posted by: anon | February 7, 2007 10:31 AM

Attacking GS cookies will get you nowhere - you don't know the product. They are all trans-fat free!

You can't discuss the issue intelligently so you disparage an American Icon - the Girl Scout cookie - how dare you!

foamgnome,

What you said.

Before we had our daughter, not a week went by that some stranger didn't: (i) ask when we were going to have a second child, and (ii) comment on how self-centered and spoiled only children are. I did not invite these comments and they were made in front of our son. Some women pressure other women to make exactly the same choices they themselves made, as though some stranger's choice constitutes some kind of validation of the speaker's choice.

I found the stranger-pressure immense and laughable. It got to the point that, in our least mature moments, my husband and I felt as though sticking with one child was taking a stand against the masses.

The assumption police are prevalent and either insecure or utterly convinced that their way is the only right way.

I'm with Leslie here, too. Breastfeeding is good for mothers and babies. It shouldn't require us to go into exile.

If my daughter and I are allowed to be somewhere, I will feed her if she needs feeding. And most people probably won't even realize because I were her in a sling most of the day.

Leslie, was the speaker wearing her baby during the presentation? Martha Sears does this all the time, even on national television.

So who cares I guess the next time fred makes a comment on breastfeeding I should ask him to justify it after all I shouldn't be using my previous knowledge of his credintials to judge his post - I guess I should take father of 4 seriously when he makes a joking comment as again I shouldn't use my previous knowledge of his style when judging his posts - that is what i meant by using your knowledge of the poster and this is what I meant by dialogue between you who cares and me

Ok, I will back the anon guy. Why not pee at the podium? If you can expose yourself in public for something natural, why can everyone not have the same right? This is serious. Would it make you uncomfortable? Well, that is how many people feel about breast feeding. Hyperbole yes, but it makes us examine the real fundamentals of what is at stake as far as the rights of people to publicly undress for natural purposes. I am interested in the responses.

Anybody want to talk about the astronaut who freaked out over her boyfriend. How far did she set women back? I hate when successful women do such totally "girlie" stuff.

Martha Sears is only known for her parenting and breastfeeding advocacy. If you go to see a program in which she's participating, you presumably are prepared to see her wear her baby, and want to see her wear her baby. Apples, meet oranges, with respect to comparing Martha Sears and the speaker who is the focus of Leslie's comments.

Snore. This again?

My two cents: Some women choose to breastfeed. They are protected by law in most places and are welcome to do so. Most women doing this in public do so discreetly. Some women choose to bottlefeed. They are welcome to do so, and do not deserve to be criticized for their decision, which they no doubt put a lot of thought into.

Employers should, and are often required, to make accommodations for working parents. However, bringing one's child to work on a regular basis is not a viable option. Working from home is great, but at the workplace one must consider others, who also have to get jobs done.

I see a stray kid or two at my office from time to time when a sitter cancels or when there is a new baby to show off, but doing this on a regular basis would be unthinkable. It would be highly unprofessional to be on an important teleconference or in a client meeting with a baby crying in the background.

Another important point is knowing your audience. The lady that is the subject of this story was speaking to a group of parents, not business executives, clients, or politicians.

And as for the comment about Congresswomen breastfeeding during floor debate, all I can say is Washington is no place for a baby (see loss of innocence discussion from yesterday)!

moxie, yeah, the astronaut was a total space case. LOL. They should psychologically screen them a bit better. You know, she was a married mom of 3! The guy was actually a bachelor. Glad this made the press. I wonder what her husband thinks about this. I know one of her kids is probably trying to figure out where his BB gun went.

NCLawyer: The other really nasty one that I have heard is we must think DD is perfect that we feel no need to replicate our genes again. Can you believe that? We are coming through some real road blocks in our adoption plans. So it does not look real positive at the moment. So DD may end up being an only child be default. I see a lot of pros and cons to that situation. But the reality is either by choice or by default, we will have to deal with the anti only children comments for a long time. Just like momof5 has to deal with the anti big family comments.

Foamgnome and momof5, I'm glad that perfect strangers can't comment on my personal decision not to have kids (they probably assume that I'll have them soon and am therefore normal). But we do have our closest friends and family members preaching to us. I don't know what's worse--getting it from complete strangers or getting it from the people whose opinions matter most to you!

I have had complete strangers come up to me and wave my smoke from their faces and say "smoking kills" (did I ask you to come near me?). I quit, so I agree with them, but that doesn't mean that they acted appropriately.

I have also had complete strangers comment loudly on the size and shape of various of my body parts. That's the worst. I have no idea what to say to that. The day that I get a taser will be a bad day for lewd men everywhere.

"She's so adverse to debt..."

I agree! Life, at one point or another, will involve debt. Now, there's a smart way to be in debt and a dumb way to do that, and she would be much more useful if she'd focus on 'smart debt.'

Kudos to foamgnome (8:37) and scarry (8:38). You guys really put both topics (home schooling issues; breastfeeding at the podium) into perspective.

I had some things to say about both topics, but you two covered everything.

Cheers.

Yeah the whole astronaut thing was really bizarre. I can't believe the husband has not been hunted down yet. I nearly died when I found out she was married with teenage children. I really feel sorry for her family.

Why do so many people think BFing requires "undressing"?

My issue with breastfeading in public is the same issue I have with many forms of public behavior, as it relates to the attitude in this country about our fellow citizens. There seems to be an attitude that "I can do whatever I want, wherever I want and it doesn't matter if someone else objects." I'm NOT saying this applies to all breastfeaders, just a few. There seems to be no thought given to how another person dealing with someone else's public behavior would feel. This applies to many forms of public behavior more obnoxious in my opinion that breastfeading. Also, interestingly, the person who gets so mad at witnessing a baby being breastfed probably is the same person who allows their child to run amoke in a coffee shop, disturbing everyone else. I guess my point is that we are a society, living in close proximity, in most of this nation. We need to consider the feelings of others. I have no issue with public breastfeading; never even occured to me that it's rude or disgusting. I do have a problem with the attitude that you can do it wherever and whenever you want and anyone who might be uncofortable be damned. It's the same feeling I get at my corner coffee shop when a certain neighbor with an unruly 6 six year old comes in. She should consider that his screaming and running around and taking people's newspapers off their table and running off isn't that cute. (OK, he is cute as hell). But, there are other people to consider. Maybe tell him to stop, as my mother would have. That's all I'm saying. CONSIDER OTHERS AROUND YOU!

The paper this am said that the astronaut and her husband had separated a couple of weeks ago.

Proud Papa-

Great point re: blending v. balancing

There is quite a difference between allowing the time to pump in a restroom/private room while at work and bringing your child in and doing it during work hours.

I don' think the vision Leslie has will ever come to fruition. Senators don't chow down while voting or at a podium!! I would be horrified. Just as I would be horrified if a bottle feeding parent (man or woman) were holding their kid during a meeting to feed them?

Where's the line?

I was a breastfeeding mom- I did SAH then, but if I had an infant now that I work, I would never sit in front of my boss and colleagues and breastfeed! Pump, of course.

Silly me, thinking that WaPo readers were smarter than the moronic "oh my god, she's got BREASTS that MAKE MILK" crowd that usually shows in droves whenever anyone says anything positive about nursing in public.

I breastfed my child for 2 years, frequently in public - in line at the MVA, at Epcot, shopping malls, etc - and most of the time no one even noticed what I was doing. I assure you that my breasts were not "flaunted" - does everyone else live in a place where women disrobe from the waist up in order to breastfeed? I show much more skin (and shape) wearing a buttton-up blouse at work than I ever did when I was nursing.

Such a lazy facetious bunch of arguments. Could we at least try to exercise a little intellectual rigor? It's a lot to ask, I know.

Peeing and breastfeeding: One is elimination of waste (an undesirable product) and is considered unhygenic. Yes, true, most urine is sterile and poses no biological hazard, but the fact is, urination is how the body gets rid of fluid it doesn't want. Breastfeeding is nourishment. Period. Do you drink cow's milk? Sure. Do you drink cow's urine? I don't know you, but I expect you do not.

Also, I don't understand why the man's view of a breast (sexualized) takes precedence over its true function. Why are we accepting this definition of a part of our body as strictly sexual and therefore taboo? The sexual aspect of breasts is totally secondary. So please, knock off the dumb arguments about how "if you can breastfeed in public, I should be able to pee in public." You embarass yourself with that childish rhetoric.

Secondly, it's inappropriate to breastfeed while giving a presentation, just as it would be inappropriate to eat a sandwich while presenting. If you're in the audience, and not the center of attention, by all means, feed 'em if you've got 'em.

Why an infant would be attending a business event in the first place, however, defies explanation.

To those of you who insist on using terms like "whipping it out," have you ever actually seen someone breastfeed in public? I'd be extremely shocked if in any but the rarest cases, a mom actually exposes her entire breast while doing so.

When my daughter was younger and brastfeeding was her primary form of nutrition, I nursed in public all the time. I never used a blanket, but I also never exposed myself. And I only once ever got a dirty look or comment.

I just don't think this is as big a deal in real life as some people on the internet would have us believe.

Chris you made me laugh out loud - truly. I think the astronaut has a teenage boy - can you imagine the horror that his life is now (see bullying d