Commuting and the 'Dead Zone'

By Rebeldad Brian Reid

I miss my commute. At least, I think I do. I have the hazy memory of someone who hasn't had to do the cross-D.C. trek in a few months, and the limitations of the Washington-area highway system aren't as sharp in my mind. Still -- I miss my alone time in the car/Metro/bike. (I've commuted in every possible way -- save rowboat and cross-country ski -- in my 10-odd years of Washington work.)

The commute is on my mind after I read a piece by the always-wonderful Sue Shellenbarger, who writes the work and family column for the Wall Street Journal. Shellenbarger shone a light last week on the "Dead Zone," that terrible time in the evening after work when you simply lack the ability to communicate with your family.

I know I suffer it, stumbling out of my home office into the height of arsenic hour, when the kids are hungry and tired and the puppy is all revved up. I am physically present -- capable of cutting up an apple and robotically asking how school went -- but the eyes are glazed and the mind is elsewhere (did I need to send one more e-mail?).

I stumbled across a a nice blog post about how to leave work, which came with the counter-intuitive suggestion to take the long way home after a bad day at work to fully separate work and home. I realized I could use that separation.

When I was bike and Metro-bound, the trip home was a great chance to shift gears -- pun not intended -- and transition from the office to home. Though I hated the 45-minute time suck at the end of the day, I did feel better. Same goes for the car trip, when I could catch up on my favorite podcasts and otherwise tune everything out.

As usual, I'll kick it to you: Is my pining for red lights due to traffic-jam-related amnesia? Have any of you used the commute to break through the Dead Zone? And if not, how do you avoid the Dead Zone?

Brian Reid writes about parenting and work-family balance. You can read his blog at rebeldad.com.

By Brian Reid |  March 1, 2007; 7:00 AM ET  | Category:  Tips
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f.i.r.s.t!

Posted by: Phila | March 1, 2007 7:23 AM

My commute is 15 minutes on back country roads. Four stoplights, one of which was added last week. Bummer. No, I don't wish for a 45 min.or hour commute, been there and never wish to do it again.

Posted by: BlueHeavenMo | March 1, 2007 7:47 AM

deep breathing, relaxation, yoga type meditation, before leaving home office?

Posted by: experienced mom | March 1, 2007 7:48 AM

Do you have a way to get out of the office and the house before seeing the kids? As in, leave through a different door, walk around the house and come in the front/garage door as if coming from out of the house work?

Should only take 2 minutes or so and the kids will be ok for that long, but may help.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 7:53 AM

No, I don't miss my long commute. Okay, with a long commute maybe I didn't have to deal with my family and their demands right after a 'bad' day, but then I had to deal with traffic and its demands! Sorry, I'd rather spend the time with my family. Family is much better than DC traffic/beltway/metro/walk - but maybe not bike.

As for the 'dead zone', if I could I would go for a 45 bicycle ride after a day at work. That would take care of any bad day - at home or the office.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 7:53 AM

I'm spoiled - there is an iPod adaptor/charger built into the glove compartment and I can control the iPod through the steering wheel. That means almost 2 straight hours of Jimmy Buffett when I have to leave Dulles at 5pm to return to Howard County [fortunately I don't have to make the trip every day].

By the time I get home I always have a smile on my face.

Posted by: A Dad | March 1, 2007 7:54 AM

I take a ride-on and the metro every day (back and forth) and value that time so much. It's guaranteed alone time, reading time, introversion time. I realized what a treasure it was when I worked for two years with a friend who always left the same time I did. She would come with me to the subway, board with me, sit with me, and yack the whole time. It drove me nuts! "My" time was shot, at least for the afternoon commute. Thank goodness she moved away! ;-)

Posted by: Bethesdamomof two | March 1, 2007 7:54 AM

I've actually had as much problems with a too short commute than a too long one. Not the same problems, but still problems. When I lived 5 minutes from my office, I found I could not switch gears between home and office. When I got home in the evening, I was still in "work" mode.

I've had everything from 5 minutes up to 90 minutes. Peronally, I've found a 20 minute commute is about ideal. Enough time to decompress from work, not enough time to recompress from traffic.

Posted by: Ruby | March 1, 2007 7:58 AM

I think the 45-mile commute I left behind in Michigan was giving me heartburn. Seriously. Now that it's gone, I will never wish for it back!

Posted by: writing mommy | March 1, 2007 7:59 AM

Oh yeah, I miss it. I get out of work (P/T) at 3:00 and have to pick my daighter up at 3:00. It's 2 minutes, so I make it before grace time expires. But there's no me time and I'm never alone in my car.
My husband complains about his commute, but I'd switch in a second. Plus, somedays I used to be able to sneak in a quick errand. No more.

Posted by: inBoston | March 1, 2007 8:02 AM

Roses are red
Violets are blue
Anons post daily
Names can too

Posted by: the original anon | March 1, 2007 8:02 AM

No commute for me and I don't miss it. I do miss my friends at work, but not the commute.

Posted by: scarry | March 1, 2007 8:03 AM

I know that when my kids were REALLY little, and my job was really demanding, I loved the time spent alone in the car because I would turn my cell phone off and it was the ONLY time of the day that no one could ask me to do anything. (And the only time I didn't have to listen to Barney in the car either.)

It was paradise. AT that stage, I actually do remember looking forward to it.

Posted by: Armchair Mom | March 1, 2007 8:04 AM

I give this blog topic 2 hours before it completely devolves.

Posted by: nostradamus | March 1, 2007 8:06 AM

I can't say my commute is any kind of balm. I leave work agitated about work, rush out to try to beat traffic, and then get even more agitated about the traffic when I don't (not like it does any good, but. . .). So I am usually feeling more hectic by the time I get to the kids' school/daycare. And that's with only about a 20 minute commute -- we specifically chose where to live based on shorter commutes (Baltimore, not DC; close-in suburb, not farther out, easy access to multiple routes in, etc.).

On a good day, when I can get out early and beat traffic and am not in a rush, cruising along in my car with something good on the radio does help put me in a good frame of mind. But that's maybe once every 3 weeks. I would trade that one good day for no commute at all in a heartbeat.

Posted by: Laura | March 1, 2007 8:07 AM

Brian, I think you're suffering from traffic-related amnesia. For the last week, I've been driving home from Arlington to Howard County - the shortest it's taken is 90 minutes. And it requires FULL concentration - no distractions like podcasts, deep reverie about what to do this weekend, or anything else. Anything less is dangerous in that traffic.

(Sheesh - go look at the "On Parenting" blog where they're talking about installing cameras in cars for teenagers. Maybe those cameras should be installed for zoned-out adults driving in rush-hour traffic - it might explain all the &)*&)(* fender-benders.)

Posted by: Army Brat | March 1, 2007 8:09 AM

I do think my commute gives me a little decompression time but I wish it were shorter. It takes me 35-45 minutes depending on traffic. I hate having to pay for that extra hour and a half of childcare (nanny) and losing out on that time with the kids. I have tried several times to find a job closer to home. I don't want to work from home though, even if it were possible, which at my current job it is not. I really like the comraderie of an office, the improptu lunch dates, etc. I also don't have the discipline to be productive at home. I know I would get distracted with laundry, dishes, food in kitchen.

When my kids were younger I had them both in a daycare center near my office so I commuted with them. I still miss that. They often slept in the car which meant they were more pleasant in the evening. My daughter would chatter away about her day, when she was in pre-K, which was lovely. Dealing with them strapped into carseats is very different than at home. I had sippy cups with milk and lots of kids music to keep them happy. I would just tune out Raffi and zone into my own world.

I like the idea someone posted of trying a 2 minute walk before emerging from the home office. If you can't swing some kind of physical seperation, and you're not morally opposed to it, give your kids 15 minutes of tv or computer time. You can veg out while they do that and then launch into the evening. I use this on the weekends (and on Fridays, my day off, with my preschooler). I give the kids breakfast and then they have tv time while I eat breakfast and read the paper. That half hour relaxing breakfast prepares me for a day of running around with a 7 and 4 year old. It's a treat for them too - a total win/win.

Posted by: PT Fed, Mof2 | March 1, 2007 8:10 AM

Forgot to mention: I actually find the time in the car AFTER I get my kids more relaxing. Then the pressures are gone -- I've gotten everything done, made all the deadlines, we're not in any rush, and I don't have to deal with the interstate any more. The boy usually babbles or sucks down a bottle; the girl usually sits quietly for a few minutes to recuperate from HER day, then starts babbling like the girl in the Volvo commercial (paying attention optional). It makes me smile.

Posted by: Laura | March 1, 2007 8:11 AM

On the other part of Brian's blog: when I worked at home full time, and now on those days when I telecommute, the "me time" is accomplished by shutting the office door, ignoring the business computer and cell phone, and relaxing with the latest iTunes purchases. My ironclad rule is, leave me alone for at least 10 minutes, unless life or limb is in danger.

If you know what time they're coming home from school, it helps if you take that time BEFORE they get home.

Posted by: Army Brat | March 1, 2007 8:13 AM

I avoid the "Dead Zone" by skipping Brian's Posts (the real Dead Zone).

Brian needs a personality transplant. Will Fred Volunteer?

Posted by: Trixie | March 1, 2007 8:14 AM

I do a one hour commute by train. It does give you some down time but I have to leave ungodly early in the morning. And it sucks a lot out of your day. Would prefer no commute but since I have always commuted, I guess I really wouldn't know for sure.

Totall off topic: I found these plastic bottles of peep shaped bubbles at the dollar store. They were the cutest things. In the shape of bunnies and chicks. At first I thought, peeps without sugar. Brilliant. So I picked up some for the preschool. Now I am wondering, will it be offensive to non Christians? What do you guys think?

Posted by: foamgnome | March 1, 2007 8:16 AM

This is one of the reasons I actually love living where I do -- it's 50 minutes door to door (going out to wait for the bus to walking into my office), and I for one need that separation time; lucky for me, I know this. In the morning it gives me time to wake up and get my brain ready to start the day, in the evening it lets me de-stress a little before I get home. This is an awesome thing and I don't know as I would trade it. (Yeah, there are some days I want the skip the whole thing and work from home, but most of the time the commute is nice, I can catch up on my reading and whatnot.)

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 8:25 AM

My wife's commute time is around 40 minutes. She has had shorter commutes but complained they didn't give her time to "destress" from work before she got home. The longer drive home allows her to listen to books on CD's and transition to the non-work part of her day.

I, OTOH, have a 12 minute commute and don't seem to have a problem with separating work with home. As soon as I leave the office I do a "memory dump" of all that I did and don't "reload" until I head off to work the next morning!

Posted by: John | March 1, 2007 8:26 AM

I enjoy my downtime during my commute. When we lived in the DC area, my commute was about an hour from Columbia to Rockville. Then it was about a half hour from Rockville to Bethesda. Then I worked from home exclusively. It was rough at first because there was no transition from work to home. I would work nights a lot so I could get errands done during the day. That killed a lot of "us" time with me and my husband.

Now in NC, my commute is a half hour every day. I, of course, long for the days when I could telecommute (especially when I leave my husband at 7:00 sound asleep on his work-from-home days), but I do enjoy my alone time in the car. I also enjoy the office atmosphere, so it's worth it to me.

Off topic, we have someone come walk our dogs on the days we both work so they don't have to be alone for 9 hours. She brings her 2 dogs and her infant (SAHM). That means that 4 dogs over 50 pounds are running around and her infant is in his carrier on the table. I sometimes worry about that mix. Especially since our dogs had never seen a baby until now! What if my dog (who doesn't like toddlers) gets curious with the baby? I would hate for anything to happen. But I would also hate to ask her to leave the baby at home. What else would she do with him?

Posted by: Meesh | March 1, 2007 8:26 AM

No, but they'll be offensive to PETA.

Posted by: to foamgnome | March 1, 2007 8:29 AM

Foamgnomes are offensive to non Christians.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 8:33 AM

No, but they'll be offensive to PETA.

That is too funny. I just made the mistake of finding some extra favors that I had made for some church project like 5 years ago. The colorful little bags were stapled. So I had no idea what was in them. I found exactly 6 which is the same number of kids in DD's class. So I sent them in. Well thank goodness the teacher looked in them before handing them out. Evidently there were little magnets that had WWJD on them. DD goes to public school. So they were not allowed to be passed out. I totally understand. I was actually really embarrassed. I did not want them to think that I was trying to evangelize to the kids or their families. I do use day care and preschool as dumping ground to all the things that we don't want to keep; like paints and stuff. Toys they have grown out of. So when I saw those favor bags, I just sent them in.


Posted by: foamgnome | March 1, 2007 8:34 AM

I like to listen to NPR while commuting. It takes my mind off of the traffic and it's not as mindless as music. Its a good way to get the day started, and helps with the transition to home in the evening. I also like to have 15 minutes when I get home before I talk to anyone. Once I have looked through the mail, changed clothes, and fully decompressed, I am ready to chat with my husband.

I am just mad that NPR now plays the dreadful BBC News Hour from 4-5 during my evening commute.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 8:35 AM

foamgnome, peeps are around for every holiday. I don't think that the non-Christians would be offended, especially since they're just chicks and bunnies. It's not like they're little crucifixes or rosaries. And if you give them out now instead of around Easter, they certainly can't think that you're forcing your holiday on them. If you plan on giving them as Easter presents, I don't think it matters what you give because the non-Christians may be offended at the act of gift-giving on a Christian holiday.

Posted by: Meesh | March 1, 2007 8:35 AM

I understand Brian. My commute time is the only time during the day that I am really alone with my own thoughts. I can listen to talk radio or my favorite PM drive DJ. Its the highest quality "me" time I get during the day. Once I pick up the kids, the focus shifts.

Posted by: I (Heart) commuting | March 1, 2007 8:37 AM

"Brian needs a personality transplant. Will Fred Volunteer?"

Posted by: Trixie | March 1, 2007 08:14 AM


Fred has a 1hr (minimum) commute each way. He is way too busy fighting New Orleans Traffic.

But thanks for thinking that I might be entertaining!

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 8:38 AM

Can you tell I have lots of time this morning?

8:35, I used to listen to NPR too. But then for a couple days they were discussing something uninteresting, so I just turned off the radio. I loved the silence so much that, without realizing it, I just left the radio off every morning and evening commute. I find that this really helps me decompress. I think of all kinds of stuff.

Now when my husband and I carpool, we leave the radio off and talk. Sometimes we argue (I'm not a fun person at 7:30), but we usually have nice conversations.

Posted by: Meesh | March 1, 2007 8:41 AM

Meesh: That is good to know. I think I will give them out the first day of spring or the first school day closest to spring. Originally I thought Easter but then decided they probably do not celebrate Easter in a public school anymore. They did back in my day but I am hoping schools don't do that anymore. But since we were still on our V-Day high, I thought I would pick something up for Easter. But I think the first spring day makes more sense.

Posted by: foamgnome | March 1, 2007 8:43 AM

Meesh, that sounds like a legitimate concern re: the dog walker with the baby. I hope your home owners' insurance is up to covering any incidents. Have you talked to her about your concerns? Is there someplace in the house that could be made dog-free (via gates or similar) that would still allow her to care for the baby?

Posted by: BxNY | March 1, 2007 8:44 AM

Brian Reid (Rebeldad) writes about

"the 'Dead Zone,' that terrible time in the evening after work when you simply lack the ability to communicate with your family."

and asks,

"Have any of you used the commute to break through the Dead Zone? And if not, how do you avoid the Dead Zone?"

I have a 44-mile, one-hour-each-way commute. Yes, there may be traffic jams, but at least I'm sitting in a comfortable (although eleven-year-old) automobile, so I can't complain. My father had only a seven-mile commute, but it took him an hour each way, too: Wait outside the hous for the bus, in the summer heat or the winter cold.. Stand on the bus while it made its way past red lights, down the hill to the subway station. Climb the stairs and wait on the platform. Stand on the packed subway train, holding on to the pole or the strap while the train stopped and started at station after station until it reached 42nd Street. Walking upstairs to street level, then walking some more to his office. My father didn't have the luxury of sitting in a comfortable car seat and listening to C-SPAN radio or "Washington's Good Music Station" while driving or stuck in traffic, because our family didn't have a car. So, I don't have anything to complain about, even though I am indeed tired after I reach home.

(Off topic: When I see Senators and Representatives and Supreme Court Justices [all nine, not just one] and Cabinet Secretaries riding bicycles or taking the Metro to work every day, then I'll be willing to listen to environmental wackos who want us to abandon our cars for public transportation. Until then -- well, my time and comfort and convenience are just as valuable to me as the "important people's" time and comfort and convenience are valuable to them, so I'll keep driving my eleven-year-old car on the Beltway. I won't go back to the life my father had.)

How do I avoid the Dead Zone? For the key to this question, let's look at Sue Shellenbarger's fine article -- the one that Rebeldad quotes from:

"After a hard day at the office, 'I'm definitely too tired to talk at night,' says Karen Ambrose Hickey of Palo Alto, Calif., a senior marketing director. 'I put up a brick wall.' Michael, an engineer, says he's resigned: Regardless of what's on his mind when Karen comes home, he says, 'you just have to wait' until later. Finding time to talk is 'an ongoing struggle.'

"Too tired to talk after work? You're not alone. About 45% of high-earning managers enter a conversational dead zone after a long workday, when they're too pooped to say anything at all to their spouse . . ." (Sue Shellenbarger)

Notice that Michael, Karen's husband, doesn't say that *he* "lack[s] the ability to communicate with his family" after his hard day's work and commute. I suspect that's because he's an engineer. I wouldn't be surprised if he spends more time each day thinking than he does communicating with people at work. Meanwhile, the "high-earning managers" and the "senior marketing director" probably spend most of their time interacting with people.

Now, imagine a professional truck driver who comes home from a long haul, and his wife asks him to drive the family to a restaurant, or drive one of the children to some sort of evening activity. Do you think he's in the mood to do that? Think of a sandhog, digging in the tunnel all day, and she comes home and her husband hands her a shovel and asks her to dig the snow off the driveway. How would she feel about that?

How do I avoid the Dead Zone after my hour-long drive home? Simple: There is no Dead Zone for me. There never was. I am a scientist who spends only a small fraction of my work time in meetings or telephone calls or face-to-face interaction with my colleagues. I'm paid to think. My home is a haven and a refuge, filled with people I love. I am eager to talk to my wife, and to any of my children who are home when I get there. I wait for telephone calls from those of my children who live away from home. Just last night, I spent half an hour on the telephone with my Law Student son, talking about Section 2-207 of the Uniform Commercial Code, and happy to help him any way I could.

Barbra Streisand used to sing that "People who need people are the luckiest people in the world." Maybe so, but if you need to talk to people all day to earn your living, it makes sense that you're tired of talking when you get home, just as the truck driver is tired of driving and the sandhog is tired of digging.

Posted by: Matt in Aberdeen | March 1, 2007 8:45 AM

foamgnome,

I think that you worry waaaay too much about what other people think. Do what you want to do.

Considering your earlier blog, I do think that you are right to worry about having enough money for another child, because you have some need to buy so many unnecessary things for each little occasion. Getting for your kids is one thing, providing for a class is completely different. Not trying to be judgmental, just an observation that your personality may make it harder to "sacrifice" than it would be for others who aren't into all that giving all the time.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 8:52 AM

I do not have Attention Deficit Disorder. Oh! Look at the bunny!

Posted by: Sleeps with a Dead Zone | March 1, 2007 8:52 AM

So does the fact "conduct of the parties may establish a contract" can also establish a blog?

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 8:53 AM

Considering your earlier blog, I do think that you are right to worry about having enough money for another child, because you have some need to buy so many unnecessary things for each little occasion. Getting for your kids is one thing, providing for a class is completely different. Not trying to be judgmental, just an observation that your personality may make it harder to "sacrifice" than it would be for others who aren't into all that giving all the time.

That may be true. But the bubble peeps cost all of $2 for the class. I don't think we are not having another child based on our peep purchases. LOL. But yes, for some reason DH and I like to give things to people. Don't know why. We just do.

Posted by: foamgnome | March 1, 2007 8:56 AM

Wow. I aspire to never be so boring and one dimensional that I long for being stuck in traffic just to add spice to my apparently dull life.

When you count the hours of any given week, month, year that you're spending in traffic, I'd venture to guess that would be depressing knowing that's time you've missed spending with family. While telecommuting isn't for everyone, I really can't sympathize with someone who has the ability to do so because they long for commuting so they can have "me" time. It sounds very selfish.

And I guarantee, placed back in that situation, you'd once again long for the 2-second commute from the office to the kitchen, having that much more time to spend with family.

If "me" time is really the issue here, why not take that time you'd be stuck in traffic and take an exercise class? Or take a walk around the neighborhood. Take a shower. Read something non-work related for 20 minutes. I could go on.

Bottom line, wishing to be stuck in traffic is just insane. Use the precious time you have wisely; I doubt you'll look back on your life and have nice thoughts about traffic, accidents, backups, detours, etc. Just so you could be alone.

Posted by: Um.... | March 1, 2007 8:57 AM

I love having a tiny 5-minute commute to work, but every so often I do miss the good things about being in a car alone for any significant period of time. That seemed to be where I listened to music most or caught up on world news. Now, I have to make time to do those things. I'm completely out-of-touch with Top 10 music (perhaps that's a good thing?) because with those radio stations there is time for maybe one song and a few annoying commercials in my commute.

No complaints though! I love that I can run home at lunch if necessary, or run over to my daughter's school. And when the weather gets a bit nicer, I'll hopefully start walking again - that inserts almost an hour of downtime into my day and makes me feel really connected to my neighborhood and town.

Brian, perhaps you can go for a neighborhood walk for 15 minutes and then walk in your house to start the Daddy part of your evening. The puppy might like to come along...

Posted by: equal | March 1, 2007 9:00 AM

I jsut started a new job in the city. I live and previously worked in the Tysons area. I love being on the metro. I have time to listen to music and read and zone out. My commute is surprisingly the same length of time (yes it takes an hour to drive 5 miles in Tysons Corner). Now, I have "me" time. And I didn't realize how much I missed it!

Posted by: mfd | March 1, 2007 9:03 AM

About 2/3 of the time I commute from NW to NoVa (35-40 minutes)I have my teenage daughter in the car with me (the rest of the time she's with her dad). These have been great moments of quality time with her; sometimes we just sit together in silence, sometimes it's a real conversation, and sometimes she "downloads" her day and I find out about her teachers, friends, boys, problems and highlights. I would never, ever trade this time away. It's amazing. And she feels the same way!!

Posted by: DC | March 1, 2007 9:04 AM

I commute from Brandywine, MD to DC. There's a critical window into which I need to pass through in order to keep my commuting edge - 6:30-6:45 am. After that I can be sure to get behind a bus or someone else that doesn't work very far from home and then it's a crapshoot from there all the way in.

The morning time is my dead-zone and I used to listen to music radio but now I have really gotten into WAVA talk radio between 7-8 am. I can focus on the issues I'm listening to.

On the way home, I have a harder time decompressing mentally because I am thinking and planning what needs to be done when I get home. I have a home-based business too!!

However there's a lot to be said about leaving the concrete city and entering into the country, open space and less traffic on the two lane roads - I feel blessed when I pull into my driveway and park in the garage. I take a deep breath and sigh. I'm home now - safe and sound and I'm going to go upstairs and cuddle with my son for a bit......

Posted by: cj | March 1, 2007 9:06 AM

When I pull into the garage, I jump out and get the jog stroller. Our au pair brings the kids out to me, I grab a water bottle for each kid and a few pretzels or crackers and we go for a seriously brisk walk around the block. When I get home, they get half an hour of TV if I need to prep dinner, or if it's a crockpot meal, we read books together. In the summer, the only variation on this will be me running into the house to change my clothes and then we'll go.

I had to do this because I was walking in the door and just felt I had no energy. Doing the walk with the kids helps me to transition.

Posted by: WorkingMomX | March 1, 2007 9:08 AM

I used to take public transportation but started biking in search for an alternative commute and now find my rides to and from work the greatest commute. The exercise just relaxes me and not having to deal with late buses and crammed metro cars is a plus!

Posted by: jd | March 1, 2007 9:09 AM

My commute went from a 20 minute walk to work to a 7 minute walk - I think that I need 5 more minutes to decompress from the morning drama before starting work, and from work to home. Though I am very glad that I do not drive... or take a crowded metro

Posted by: single mom | March 1, 2007 9:10 AM

I am just mad that NPR now plays the dreadful BBC News Hour from 4-5 during my evening commute.

Posted by: | March 1, 2007 08:35 AM


If you have an Ipod or MP3 player you can download almost any NPR program as a podcast to listen to at your leisure! I love it - Wait Wait Don't tell me while I grocery shop, This American Life while driving. Check it out.

Posted by: moxiemom | March 1, 2007 9:17 AM

I would love to have a block to walk around too!!! I'm on a farm and am looking forward to the spring. My son will be old enough to start taking him to the barn with me to help with chores (probably won't be much help, but we'll do it together) and then maybe a quick jump up on the old nag for a few laps around the ring.

I can honestly say that when I'm not in the office I do not think about the office. I do not think about DC. I do not think about work until I absolutely am forced to. It's a paycheck with which I support my family. I feel very sorry for those who live and breath with every fiber of their being their job. They will miss out on so much of their life - but they will have a retirement fund, an expensive house and car, better vacations. I will have the time spent with my husband and kids.

Posted by: cj | March 1, 2007 9:20 AM

I recently traded a job with a one-hour-plus train commute for one with a fifteen-minute drive. While I would _not_ go back and love the extra family time a shorter commute gives me, I do on some level miss the "me" time I had on the train. And yes, it was some time to decompress before getting home. I don't think a drive of a similar length, for me, would have the same effect, though.

Posted by: PA Mom | March 1, 2007 9:23 AM

We traded a spacious house, central air conditioning, and modern plumbing for a place in Takoma Park. My commute was a walk to the day care then onto the train.

The train ride downtown and the walk were good transitions. For awhile I worked near the DC Public library and had a steady stream of novels to read on the train ride.

I have sympathy for those who do job changing and end up with long commutes. One of our biggest regrets was that we settled in Maryland instead of Virginia -where all the jobs are.

Posted by: RoseG | March 1, 2007 9:23 AM

I have a question, completely unrelated to today's blog but sort of a carryover from yesterday's.

It seems that a lot of the posters on this blog continue their conversations at home, well into the night. Yesterday, for instance, several people were blogging through 7:00, 8:00, 9:00 ... all the way to 11:00.

Does this mean that you guys pick up with the blog as soon as you get home? Are you blogging through dinner? Doesn't it get in the way of family stuff? How do your families feel about this?

I'm just curious about this. You all talk about being really pressed for time -- especially quality time with your spouses and kids. So why can't you disconnect from your blogging buddies when you're back home with your families?

Posted by: pittypat | March 1, 2007 9:23 AM

I don't work right now, don't have a commute . . . very one sided topic.

SO, off topic - my 9 year old daughter is planning her 10th BD party this month. I asked her why she refused to allow one of her best friends to be invited and find out that this horrible mean girl had been teasing my daughter and calling her fat, of all things! My daughter is nowhere NEAR approaching fat. She isn't skinny, but she's not in plus size clothes. She's in shape and gets plenty of exercise. My daughter is so upset by this . . . and she's not even 10!

Any suggestions on how to deal with this?

Posted by: Fairfax | March 1, 2007 9:24 AM

I'm a lurker finally dipping my toes in the pool.

I honestly would not for anything want a longer commute. I have the joy of getting on the bus, which is a two minute walk from home and riding that all the way into my job in DC and doing the same for a return trip. The sweet factor is that I can listen to the iPod, read or knit in the morning and that's the me time.

The not sweet factor comes in the evening commute where every loud, opinionated, personal space invader, chatty Kathy or Mike, dear father don't you friggin people just want to shut up and chill before going home to family, seems to ride the bus. My 'Dead Zone' or me time is guaranteed to be shot to crap. By the time I'm home, I'm even more stressed if it were a bad day and my mental functions are lapsed.

If I were to drive in the commute would be the same but the added irritation of other drivers would replace what I have now and I really don't need to drive up Pennsylvania during rush hour. It maybe a grass is greener thing but I would love to have a commute that involves leaving the home office, walking into the kitchen and being home.

Posted by: petal | March 1, 2007 9:25 AM

Pittypat: I rarely blog at home. Sometimes on a Friday if DD is napping and I like the topic. Or in the evening, if she is spending one on one time with DH. But I only blog because it is something to do while work is slow. When work picks up, blogging goes down. Really, would we blog if we had more work or at home all day. Not me.

Posted by: foamgnome | March 1, 2007 9:25 AM

Any suggestions on how to deal with this?

Posted by: Fairfax | March 1, 2007 09:24 AM

One large knuckle sandwich! Just kidding. I'll think on it.

Posted by: moxiemom | March 1, 2007 9:27 AM

Matt in Aberdeen, I think that's a very good observation. I suspect I don't really need much decompress time because I spend most of the day in my own head -- so I usually enjoy picking up my little chatterbox, because she pulls me out of that. Whereas on days when I've had a lot of conference calls with clients (especially demanding ones), I just pray that she's in the mood to be quiet.

I also think introvert/extrovert tendencies play a part. I suspect introverts likely need more downtime if they're in demanding, people-oriented jobs -- you just need some time to recharge the batteries before you can take on more people (even people you love more than anything). At least, those days when I have 6 conference calls just leave me exhausted and needing to not interact with anyone for a while, whereas the days that I am entirely wrapped up in research, I have plenty of energy for my little Energizer Bunny and look forward to the diversion. Although even when I do need downtime, a run with the ipod or 30 mins. of TV/computer time would be a much better de-stresser than sitting in traffic!

Posted by: Laura | March 1, 2007 9:29 AM

Wow Fairfax, that stinks. Girls have such a bad sense of body image. My guess is that they are not really calling her fat because she appears fat to them. Kids call all kinds of names like accusing people of being gay, ugly, fat etc... My guess is just try to reassure your daughter that she does not have a weight problem. It is the other girls problem with her own emotions and self esteem and has nothing to do with her. But if she has any concern about her weight, you could talk about adopting healthier eating habits, or incorporating exercise into her daily life. Like a family walk after school or before dinner. But just reassure her that she is not the problem. I personally think kids test out being mean. It is really just a phase.

Posted by: foamgnome | March 1, 2007 9:30 AM

I don't mind my commute and I like the time alone in the car. I can turn up the music and sing (badly) and no one complains.

Of course, to get a commute that doesn't make my eyes bleed, I leave my home in Chantilly at 5 a.m. and drive to SW DC (35 minutes). This allows me to leave work at 2 p.m. and get home by 2:45 p.m. I have about 45 minutes to either run an errand or just relax before my teen-aged daughter gets home.

Getting up at 3:45 a.m. stinks, but being home by 3 p.m. is wonderful. The time spent in the afternoon or evening with my daughter is much nicer than any time we would spend together running around getting ready for school and work in the morning.

When I had only a five minute commute, I never had enough time to put work behind me before I picked up my daughter. She had to deal with me still stressed about whatever went on that day and it just wasn't fun for either of us.

Posted by: single and denied | March 1, 2007 9:31 AM

Fairfax,

I think you should go with your daughter's wish not to invite this girl and basically just let her know that it's ok not to be friends with people who aren't very nice.

Focusing on the fat thing is probably counterproductive, as it puts too much attention on the question of whether or not she's fat -- and on whether that matters.

Posted by: pittypat | March 1, 2007 9:31 AM

Pittypat,

Often my wife doesn't get home until after 7:30 pm, but I'm home before 5:00. I've got plenty of time to get things done around the house, put away laundry, work on woodworking projects, start dinner, etc, and still drop in on a couple of blogs before she gets home.

Posted by: John | March 1, 2007 9:32 AM

SO, off topic - my 9 year old daughter is planning her 10th BD party this month. I asked her why she refused to allow one of her best friends to be invited and find out that this horrible mean girl had been teasing my daughter and calling her fat, of all things! My daughter is nowhere NEAR approaching fat. She isn't skinny, but she's not in plus size clothes. She's in shape and gets plenty of exercise. My daughter is so upset by this . . . and she's not even 10!

Any suggestions on how to deal with this?

Posted by: Fairfax | March 1, 2007 09:24 AM


Fairfax- you are definitely doing the right thing by doing something about it. I had a few girls calling me fat starting in 4th grade- age 10. I started to get boobs and hips at 10 (everyday bra wearing in 5th gr and my period in 6th) So no I wasn't fat- just starting puberty. It was awful the things I went through and the names they called me because of it.
Flash forward 2 years and I'm all of a sudden "sexy" and desirable BECAUSE of my boobs and hips...but whatever...
It hurt a lot and I still remember that hurt 20 yrs later.
I think just reinforcing the fact that she is HEALTHY and strong. It may be a tough few yrs, but in the end she will have self esteem if she feels loved at home.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 9:35 AM

I second moxiemom's comment! :)

Really don't invite her to the party and if she asks your daughter why, she should tell her she doesn't like it when she calls her names.

She should also try ignoring her.

Posted by: scarry | March 1, 2007 9:37 AM

Though it probably will be the death of me, I ride 2 busses, 4 trains and hike 8 blocks to get from Fairfax to my office in downtown DC, but I consider it social time. I've met a lot of really nice friends that take the "realized" time off the commute.

And after hearing this stupid robotic voice all day long, I get sick and tired of listening and just want to run my mouth.

Sometimes I feel sorry for the stranger that sits next to me. I don't mind asking him or her to read me the newspaper. Sometimes we have a good time and I make a new transportation friend.

Also, I'm a magnet for nice people who like to help others. they often offer to help me find my way.

I'm also hoping I'll run into one of my friends here on the blog. That will be worth celebrating over a cup of Starbuck's coffee.

Posted by: Father of 4 | March 1, 2007 9:39 AM

Oh it is also important to stress to boys and girls that people who are mean to them or to others are not really friends at all. You don't want to give them the impression that friends or people you care about you, should be abusing you. On the other hand, it is also true if your child is the bully that you tell them that they are not being a good friend with that kind of behavior. In a very small way, forcing or even encouraging abusive friendships, may instill values that lead to abusive adult relationships. Just some food for thought. Overall, I think kids just practice being mean and test out the pecking order. It is totally unpleasant and you need to protect your own child.

Posted by: foamgnome | March 1, 2007 9:41 AM

"Does this mean that you guys pick up with the blog as soon as you get home? Are you blogging through dinner? Doesn't it get in the way of family stuff? How do your families feel about this?"

Yea, Fredia does scream at me sometimes to "get off that damned computer". But sometimes I read comments to her that she is interested in.

As for late night, not all of us are in the eastern time zone but the blog records it as such. I will make a comment during commercials (I type very fast) or if I am paying billing or doing med claims on the computer, I will look and post. Would you believe that I love to talk as much as I love to blog?

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 9:42 AM

I would rather have extra time with my family. I'm also one to leave work at work. Blackberry is away, to be checked at 8pm to see if a crisis has occured- If one hasn't, it goes away again.

If I had a longer commute I would have less timw with my little one- no thanks! The sooner we get home, the sooner we eat, do bathtime, and get her to bed so I can relax THEN. Being home by 5-5:30 is such a wonderful change from 6-6:30. We completely avoid meltdowns because dinner is actualyl on the table at 6 instead of 7, she's in bed by 7/7:30 and my husband and I get to decompress the rest of the evening until we turn in at 10.
Traffic makes me stressed and angry- especially in the DC area. MY 2 stop metro ride is all i need.
My husband does a reverse commute and loves it- 10/15 minutes from home.
I would never ever move more than 5-8 miles from my job.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 9:42 AM

"But yes, for some reason DH and I like to give things to people. Don't know why."

It's called Consumerism. There's a big epidemic in the United States.

People are buying a lot of stuff to fill the emotional and other voids in their lives. They are also using shopping as a substitute for a social life. There is treatment.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 9:43 AM

Fairfax, I'm sad for your daughter but she's old enough to decide what traits make a good friend. You should be so proud that you've raised a child who's not afraid to discontinue a relationship with someone who says such nasty things. That shows a strength of mind that will help her in the years to come. (Because I'm afraid it's going to get worse. But your girl will do okay -- she's already showing a good head on her shoulders.)

Posted by: WorkingMomX | March 1, 2007 9:44 AM


Very insightful post, Matt in Aberdeen, on how that decompression time is more needed by high-contact workers rather than thinking/writing workers.

I don't need the decompression time either and I find that even minimal driving in traffic exhausts and stresses me way more than a day of working. It just makes me feel taut, hunched shoulders, obstructed (and stressed about getting where I'm going on time). I'm a much better person when I don't spend too much time driving . . . it's the driving that provokes a need to decompress.

I find though that I can turn my attention on a dime. I think it's because as a professor, I'm used to working along on reading/writing/deriving/ grading something, then interrupting myself on deadline to rush off and give a lecture, which is totally absorbing. I always have to drop what I'm doing, even if I'm not at a closure point with it, and push it entirely from my mind to fully engage in the next task-of-the-moment. I've done it for so long that it's really second nature --- work furiously til the last possible moment, but when that moment arrives, get up, pick up lecture notes, and *go*. No lingering thoughts . . . can return later to finish that incomplete task, but now is time to switch gears, and turn 'on', fully in the moment with the lecture material and the students. Similarly, students show up for office hours or with stray questions and I need to drop my focus (maybe finish typesetting an equation I'm right in the middle of, or finish a sentence poised complete in my mind, but in-seconds closure), and then fully focus on the student and what is blocking them, question them to find their confusion/sticking points and then question them more to lead them in discovering a deductive way through. It's total focus, total engagement with what's going on in someone else's mind. For me, the deadline to leave and pick up kids is no different. Work til the last possible moment, then hurry out the door to drive to wherever I'm needed to be. The driving is stressful because it's all back-calculated: if kids must be at gymnastics, dressed, by 5:40, we must leave aftercare at 5:20, must arrive there by 5:10 to start prying them out of their games/homework/craft projects, get them packed, and go, should leave office by 4:55-5 . . . but as I usually push it to 5, the whole drive is a bit stressful, need to get there, get there, get there, why is that idiot stopping traffic? etc

But for me, leaving work and getting into kid mode, fully engaged in an all-absorbing but different task, is no different than leaving work and getting into lecture mode. It's just a transition between different tasks . . . all of which are pretty engaging.

Btw, when our kids were little and we had an in-home sitter, on days when one of us needed to work from home, or when one of us was very sick, we did that whole leave-the-house-and-sneak-
back-thing too. Our upstairs converted attic was our home office, with sofa, microwave, and bathroom, and an outdoor metal staircase for fire egress. We found our kids could not transition and start their day, take the focus off us and onto activities with the sitter, til we walked out the front door, so we would dress, do bye-byes at the front door, then walk around to the back and up the fire stairs to the office and get started ourselves (I have painful memories during a very sick pregnancy, with asthma and brochitis, of hiding out in the bathroom up there for hours, leaned up against the wall just trying to breathe and get some sleep - both of which I could only do bolt upright. But at least my dd was happily playing with the sitter downstairs and I didn't have to worry about her)

Posted by: KB | March 1, 2007 9:46 AM

My commute is 2 hrs in traffic everyday. Miss it? I would rather jab my eye out with broken fork than do it. But I do it. I wish I had a nice 15 minute commute instead.

Posted by: pATRICK | March 1, 2007 9:54 AM

Regarding having fun with purchasing a few holiday trinkets here and there and whether this is "consumerism". . .

When my grandmother was in her eighties in an assisted living facility, she used to steal jelly packets from the dining room. My aunt scolded her for it because she got tired of cleaning up messes from the broken packets in my grandmother's purse. My grandmother's response was, "Well, you've got to have some vice."

As vice's go, this one seems pretty harmless. Not that you needed anybody to back you up on this, it just made me think of that old story.

Posted by: Another Librarianmom | March 1, 2007 9:55 AM

My 50-70 minute commute has enabled me to engage in my passion outside of my family: music. During a week I get to listen to 5-10 hours of new music, and this hobby has little impact on my family (except when I force them to listen to the best tunes).

So on that level I've been able to maintain personal/family/work balance through my long commute.

Posted by: f00 | March 1, 2007 9:57 AM

BxNY, thanks for your input. I have no idea if my insurance coevrs incidents like the one I imagine. How do you prevent someone from suing?

I have not talked to her about it because (1) it was her idea to bring the baby, so she must be comfortable with it, (2) I'm not a mom, and would hate to insinuate that I know better than she does what is safe for her kid, and (3) I don't want to come across like "You seem like you'll sue, would you please sign this waiver?" I'd like for us to be friends, and that seems like a bad way to start.

And unfortunately, aside from a closet or bathroom, there is no place that can be made baby safe. The downstairs has an open floorplan, which precludes baby gates. Upstairs we could, but then she wouldn't be watching the dogs or her baby would be alone.

Oh well, I will try to think of something.

Posted by: Meesh | March 1, 2007 9:58 AM

"Does this mean that you guys pick up with the blog as soon as you get home? Are you blogging through dinner? Doesn't it get in the way of family stuff? How do your families feel about this?"

WaPo is my homepage. If I am otherwise doing a computer-related task in the evening whether responding to client e-mails, paying bills or checking the weather so the kids know which clothes to pick out for the next day, or waiting for a print job, it's just as easy to drop in and see whether there's anything new on the blog as it is to stare at a taskbar. Last evening I had to work on a couple of projects while my daughter was taking a bath, my husband was helping out with the sound system at church, and my son was doing his homework at the table next to me. After both kids were in bed and before DH came home, I finished. Neither the blog nor anything else on a computer gets in the way of family time, nor will it.

Because the trolls generally don't post after 6 p.m. ET, the interactions are at least very, very entertaining. The kingdom quiz and Meyers-Briggs discussion was quite fun yesterday.

I can't imagine enjoying or prolonging one's commute, but to each his own. I'd beam up from my office to my kitchen if I could.


and dotted, I am so very jealous that your kids walk to and from school. The walk home from school is a lesson in decompression that lasts a lifetime.

Posted by: Megan's Neighbor | March 1, 2007 10:03 AM

I have 1 1/2 hours on a train each way. In the morning, I sleep or read the newspaper. In the evening, I typically zone out to my iPod or in a good book. While I would *love* to reduce my commute time, I must admit the train provides a good separation between work and home. I arrive at home fresh and ready. That said, I think this can be achieved outside of the work commute. That's just an easy time to do it. When you finish your work in the home office, Rebeldad, take 15 minutes to relax. Take your pick - book, music, yoga, deep breathing, walk around the block, shower, whatever. The important thing is just to take a bit of time for yourself. I think you and the kids would appreciate the time spent. All in all, I'd rather have to spend 15 minutes relaxing in a home office than 3 hours on a train!

Posted by: DC Cubefarm | March 1, 2007 10:04 AM

Years ago, I commuted by commuter rail, then subway, and on foot. The subway and rushing to meet the homebound commuter train could be tiring, hassle-filled and stressful. I loved the time on the train though (much more comfortable than Metrorail, I have to say). I took the morning paper and coffee for the ride in. I did sometimes waste money on magazines at the newsstand for the ride home, but I always enjoyed that homebound decompress time. It would have been even better if my train had a "bar car" like the CT trains.

I've had a few car commutes involving Beltway-type traffic. I would never want that again. I found that concentration needed to avoid fender-benders negated any benefit of alone time.

Posted by: Another Librarianmom | March 1, 2007 10:05 AM

I have a moderate commute...about 25 minutes. But what's more helpful than the commute for making a transition to home is taking time to "wrap-up" at the end of my work day.

I stop working on projects about 30 minutes before the end of my work day. I clean my desk, check email one last time, and make a "to do" list for the next day. Then, I sometimes do a little fun-surfing on the web to decompress. By the time I walk out the door, my head is pretty clear.

Just a suggestion...one you might want to try. It works very well for me.

Posted by: Here's What I Do | March 1, 2007 10:07 AM

Hi guys. I asked my husband if he would go see a doctor to get checked out. He flipped out at first. Then he admitted to me that he'd had a vasectomy several years ago. Before we got married, to be exact. When my parents and I were scouting venues in my hometown for our wedding. He said he couldn't go because of work. In reality he stayed back home to have the procedure and nurse himself back to health. I never had any clue. I feel so stupid. I'm so confused. I cry at the thought of the baby I can't have with him. I realize now his "just go with the flow" attitude was really a mask. He lied to me. He made me believe there was something wrong with me.

What should I do? This is all really too much.

Posted by: Chrissy | March 1, 2007 10:12 AM

"It's called Consumerism. There's a big epidemic in the United States.
People are buying a lot of stuff to fill the emotional and other voids in their lives. They are also using shopping as a substitute for a social life. There is treatment."

I'd love to see how this guy lives without purchasing anything.

Seriously, I think we can all agree that we as Americans have too much stuff. However, if we're doing it right and buying American-made things, then we're supporting our economy, which is run by capitalism. I'm not saying that greed is good. I am saying that we, by living here and paying taxes, have earned the luxury of buying what we need. This supports the people who make the products. It's the circle of tchotchke.

I hardly think that trips to te Dollar Store to make other people happy constitutes filling a void in your life. I for one love eBay (consumerism mecca) and do not feel there is a void in my life.

Posted by: Meesh | March 1, 2007 10:12 AM

Chrissy, that is huge. I'm so sorry. I would leave and try to find someone else to have a life with. I don't see how a person could recover from such a lie.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 10:16 AM

Thanks for the feedback about "mean girls." Yeah - there's no way this girl is coming to the party. I've been good about restraining myself from getting involved. Of course I want to protect her from people who will try to tear her down, but she's doing a great job of handling it herself. I suggested that she be direct with this former friend about why she no longer wants to be her friend, but she wants to just ignore this girl and avoid her. I've done my best to reassure her that she is healthy and is in no way overweight.

Posted by: Fairfax | March 1, 2007 10:16 AM

I think A Dad and I probably have the same iPod adapter setup and it's fanstastic.

The commute definitely decompresses me (making me a better father/husband) as long as the traffic itself is not frustrating. I commute about an hour each way. 90 minutes if I'm doing pickup/dropoff at daycare.

That's on par with everybody in DC, so there's no sympathy to be had locally.

Posted by: Proud Papa | March 1, 2007 10:16 AM

Chrissy, if he loves you and wants kids, he can get a reversal and you can forgive him.

If he loves you and wants kids but can't get a reversal, maybe you could adopt or use donated sperm.

If he doesn't want kids and you have to have them, divorce him.

Posted by: Meesh | March 1, 2007 10:17 AM

Chrissy: You have every right to be upset. My god that is the most dishonest thing you can do to a person. Besides the fact, marriages should be build on trust and honesty. I would feel crushed. But since you are newly married, I am sure divorce seems like an awful choice. To be honest, why would you want a baby with this guy? He obviously doesn't want to be a father at this point in time. If you really want to be a mother, then I think you need to get out of this marriage now. You will grow to resent him later on. I personally would need time to get over the deceit even if I did not want kids. Wanting kids or not wanting kids is something all couples should talk about openly and honestly before marriage. That being said, I think people do change their minds a lot on those decisions. Before we got married, both DH and I always thought 2 kids might be nice. Now given the realities of our lives and our daughter's, one kid seems more likely. But no kids would be devastating to either one of us. Especially because you are so young and healthy, I would really consider marriage couseling. If you think you can be happy with out kids, then give your marriage a whirl. But definitely seek counseling for the two of you. It is totally abnormal to lie about something like that. I think in some states married men and women need written permission to do such procedures. He obviously did it early, to avoid such a situation. Hugs to you. You sound like such a nice women and you don't deserve this. I will be thinking of you today.

Posted by: foamgnome | March 1, 2007 10:18 AM

Chrissy, you may even be able to get an anullment because he (I assume) wed you under false pretences (or whatever the legal jargon is). You know, like Renee Zellweger and that country singer.

Posted by: Meesh | March 1, 2007 10:20 AM

Chrissy, if you are Catholic, it is total grounds for an annulment.

Posted by: foamgnome | March 1, 2007 10:21 AM

Chrissy,

I am so sorry. However, if he lied about this issue and it is so important to you, what else has he lied about. Not to mention that you thought something was wrong with you for years! (emotional stress) I am not telling you what to do, but I could not forgive him, let alone look at him if he did that to me.

Did he ever mention that he didn't want kids. Again, I am really sorry.

Posted by: scarry | March 1, 2007 10:22 AM

Chrissy, How awful! You have my sympathies.

It sounds like you married a selfish, deceitful person who will do what HE wants without regards for the feelings of others - doesn't sound like a great father or husband. At the very least you may need marriage counseling to help you both understand the impact that this will have on your marriage (or to lack thereof).

Good luck to you!

Posted by: Fairfax | March 1, 2007 10:23 AM

I think I will do something non-PC and disagree with Leslie. ;-) The traffic here is much more offensive than any other thing I can imagine, and makes watching a CEO breastfeeding while conducting a board meeting sound like a great time. That she pines for a traffic jam makes me question her sanity.

I am so thankful my commute is 15 minutes or less and I unwind either listening to 91.9 or my metal collection on the iPod. Dragonforce rocks! Sure, after a tough day I can still come home and feel beat after a long day at work, but fighting traffic can take it out of you too- so if I need to zone and read for 20 minutes when I get home it is fine. If I can not escape to read a fantasy or sci-fi novel, I find that the monotony of some simple solitary activity like washing dishes actually is a great way to zone out AND get something done at the same time.

I have to agree with Matt's post above. The closer the similarity of an action to work, the less I want to do it right after work.

Posted by: Chris | March 1, 2007 10:25 AM

I love my commute. 30 minutes brisk walking each way, with several great family-owned fruit and veg shops, a butcher, and a fishmonger along the route (meaning the SO and I confer before I leave work as to what's for dinner, and I pick it up on the way home), plus a normal grocery store for the staples only 5 minutes before I get to our apartment. The 30 minutes gives me enough time to get in work mode (in the morning) or get out of it (in the evening), and the walking is a great decompressor, without the added stress of sitting in traffic or concentrating on driving. It's also nice that I get an hour of exercise a day just by commuting. SO picks up DD, whose daycare is around the corner from his job, and we all get home around the same time. We live in Oslo, in case anyone is wondering!

Posted by: tj | March 1, 2007 10:26 AM

Chris, Leslie did not write the blog today. Brian did.

Posted by: foamgnome | March 1, 2007 10:26 AM

By the way, I didn't see that anyone had mentioned they are "slugging", which here in DC is our ridesharing practice where a single driver picks up enough strangers to qualify for HOV.

I considered doing this at one point. But frankly, I'm from NYC, and we don't talk to strangers.

Anyone have any experience with this? Better or worse for de-compressing? Is it worth it if it cuts you commute from 60 minutes down to 20 minutes??

-Pp.

Posted by: Proud Papa | March 1, 2007 10:28 AM

I second KB, who wrote: "Very insightful post, Matt in Aberdeen, on how that decompression time is more needed by high-contact workers rather than thinking/writing workers. / I don't need the decompression time either and I find that even minimal driving in traffic exhausts and stresses me way more than a day of working. It just makes me feel taut, hunched shoulders, obstructed (and stressed about getting where I'm going on time). I'm a much better person when I don't spend too much time."

When I was WOH more, about half the time I rode in the car one way with DH, who always drove. Traffic's stressful to us both, so sometimes we'd just be silent together -- no hostility or anything, just minimizing the travel stress -- and we also like to listen to NPR (like several posters above). The other half of the time I was riding the bus (two buses, actually). The only really stressful thing was the risk of missing my connecting bus at the transfer point if the first bus was late, but then again I realized that was out of my control, so tried to "go with the flow." On the bus I occasionally chatted with other passengers. But if I needed to decompress, I'd either stick my nose in a book or close my eyes -- most people will take the hint. (My main problem is that the occasional drunk seems to think I look like the sort of kindly person who's interested in listening, as they always seem to sit next to me -- sigh).

Posted by: catlady | March 1, 2007 10:29 AM

Chrissy,

Right now you are understandably extremely hurt. I would suggest that you don't do anything quickly. Talk with him, go to counseling. Together you have to decide if there are children in your future. He may change his mind. Do not have children with someone who is unwilling. It will not be good for anyone.

If children are definitely not in his future, then you must determine if it is more important to have a life with him or a life with children. If you loved him enough to marry him, you may be surprised at your answer. Be true to yourself, but don't be rash.

Please, please, please don't dump him right now because your hurt and grief may be clouding your decisions. Allow some time before making a decision.

You don't say how old you are. I did not want children, either. Not at all, not now, not later. But then time passed and somehow, I did want children. He may change, he may not. If he says he doesn't want children, do not expect or hope that he will change. If you decide to stay with him, make that decision with the understanding that you will not have children, not with the hope that someday you will.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 10:32 AM

Chrissy, oh my God, I'm so sorry. It floors me that someone who says he loves you would not just do something so significant behind your back, but then hid it for five years, even though that meant that you spent all those years worrying that something is wrong with YOU. Please try marriage counseling right away. I can understand that he might have been young and felt pressured and panicked, but I cannot comprehend letting someone I loved spend literally years worrying and being sad over something when I knew the answer all along. At best, it shows incredible immaturity.

Posted by: Laura | March 1, 2007 10:34 AM

Meesh wrote re Foamgnome buying very gifts for her DD's small class: "I hardly think that trips to the Dollar Store to make other people happy constitutes filling a void in your life."

I agree. I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but I think this is a matter of degree. Such an inexpensive item as Foamgnome bought for each kid is hardly in the same class as pricey and/or "show-off" type gifts (see V-Day discussion).

Remember the old saying, "It's the thought that counts"?

Posted by: catlady | March 1, 2007 10:35 AM

People always talk to me on the metro. Even if I have ear phones in (I put them in even if the iPod is off) and have a book open. I've had people ask me about the book, suggest other books, everything. I don't know what else to do. I love the quiet time on the metro to and from work (about 15 min each way, no transfers) and hardly ever have to stand. A friend commutes with me and we both get our books out and zone, then chat walking from the metro home.

It's very rare there is much noise in the cars in the AM or PM, most everyone is in a book or staring out the windows. I'm on the Red line btw Union Station and Silver Spring for reference.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 10:35 AM

RoseG,

"One of our biggest regrets was that we settled in Maryland instead of Virginia -where all the jobs are."

I have lived in maryland all my life and also worked in maryland for 30 years. I'm curious to know what you consider to be 'all the jobs'.

I also have a 20 minute commute and shake my head watching the traffic to DC sitting still as I am zooming on the other side of the highway going toward Baltimore.

Posted by: huh? | March 1, 2007 10:37 AM

Ways to shift mental gears:
1) Zone out reading books/magazines (standing up) in a convienence or book store (very popular in Japan)
2) A brisk 45 minute walk through ice and snow. I found this out last month, when I had to walk home from the train station after missing the last bus.
Also, hats off to all the parents who come home and help their kids with their homework!

Posted by: Diane, Baltimore | March 1, 2007 10:38 AM

Chrissy, I'd divorce him. Obviously, you shouldn't take any action right now, but I've got a hard time believing that what he did will look any better once you've got some perspective and distance on it. Honestly, infidelity would be far far easier for me to forgive than what your husband did.

I just don't see how you can trust him again on anything at all. Your life isn't my life; your husband isn't my husband; your perspective isn't mine; but I can't really think of anything he could do, other than maybe give you HIV, that would be more underhanded, thoughtless, selfish, contemptible, and in violation of the whole premise of marriage in the first place.

If he can get it reversed and you can find it in your heart to forgive him, then more power to you. I couldn't.

Posted by: Lizzie | March 1, 2007 10:38 AM

lizzie, I would have packed that night!

Also, how do you know he won't come to you in a few years and say he had an affair and has HIV?

However, I think you need counsling or at least talk to a real person such as your clergy member, mother, sister, friend, etc.

Advice from a blog is good advice, but we can't hug you or give you a tissue.

Posted by: scarry | March 1, 2007 10:43 AM

Chrissy,

This isn't about kids and whether or not you want them. This is about lying, betrayal, and valuing whatever his needs are over yours on the big stuff, not the little stuff. I can't imagine that this was, or is your vision, of how someone who loves you behaves. It's possible, but I find it difficult to believe that this is an isolated instance of self-centered behavior or lying. Finally, the timing of the vasectomy is blowing me away. I might have been forgiving of the guy if he'd had the operation long before he met you and was afraid of losing you (although I'd still not respect him), but he made a unilateral decision about one of the biggest expectations some folks have for their lives after he met you and after he knew he was going to marry you.

Pop quiz: If your best male or female friend came to you with these same facts, how would you advise him or her?

What do our guy posters have to say? I'm betting they'll unanimously advocate kicking this guy to the curb ASAP.

Posted by: Megan's Neighbor | March 1, 2007 10:44 AM

(WARNING: contains Bible thumping)

"I cry at the thought of the baby I can't have with him."

Sounds like you don't want to be barren. This is understandable. The Holy Writ says that the greatest blessing for a people is that "there shall not be male or female barren among you, or among your cattle" (Deuteronomy 7:14).

"He lied to me. He made me believe there was something wrong with me."

Sounds like fraud, concealment and misrepresentation. I'm no canon lawyer, but check out what some of the other posters have written about an annulment. With another husband who is not shooting blanks, the Psalmist's words may yet come true in your case: "He maketh the barren woman to dwell in her house as a joyful mother of children, Hallelujah!" (Psalm 113:9).

Posted by: Matt in Aberdeen | March 1, 2007 10:44 AM

Chrissy -- I feel your pain and I lived it for 10 years!!! When my husband and I were planning our wedding and discussing these types of issues, he only asked that I wait at least 1 year after we were married to conceive. I agreed, I was 30 at the time. A year came and I mentioned it again -- this time his response was, "Oh by the way, I don't ever want to have children". He may as well have punched me in the gut when he said that. I was devastated!!!

I didn't want to divorce him so we intermittenly fought about it for the next 10 years. I started researching the internet and found (much to my surprise) that there are many ways to go about this without the need for my husband and without commiting adultry. I planned and planned on what I was going to do.

Before I went ahead with any of it, I gave him one last opportunity. I gave him an ultimatum (gasp!). Either he ponied up or I was going through with my plans of which I shared with him. Either way, I was going to have a child. He could leave if he wanted to, but I really wanted to have his child.

Amid much discussion and his surprise that I would be willing to go this far, he agreed. It took us 8 months to conceive and now we have this wonderful little boy and he's the greatest dad ever.

Before you think about divorce or annullment at least ask him if he would reverse the issue. If he's unwilling and you're not willing to go through life without children then you may have to face the inevitable. Don't waste 10 years arguing, feeling betrayed, angry and hurt. You need to be true to you first. I will keep you in my prayers, Chrissy and hope that you and your husband can find a way through this, together.

Posted by: c | March 1, 2007 10:44 AM

I hate my commute, but do make use of it. I'm on the metro about 40 minutes each way (my commute is one hour door-to-door). I do work on the way in most days. I've discovered that on those days when I do work on the way in I hit the ground running once I'm in the office. In contrast, on those days, like today, when I read a novel on the way in, I never seem to get into my work and I'm distracted all day. I'm incapable of doing work on the way home without falling asleep, so use that time to read a book or something that takes me completely out of the work world. Or I take a nap.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 10:46 AM

I think him giving you HIV knowingly or from an affair would be the only thing worse then this. The one poster who said give it some time was right because right now your too emotional. And if you do want to end your marriage, you need to be in a clear mind to settle all your affairs. But wow, I would never want children with such a person. To have not said anything for literally years and make you think something was wrong with you is really sick.

Posted by: foamgnome | March 1, 2007 10:46 AM

To Fairfax: I agree with other posters that your daughter is not obliged to invite a guest who's been mean to her to her birthday party. I would also not much discuss with your daughter the substance of what the mean girl said re your daughter's weight, other than as a brief teaching moment on our society's obsession with skinnyness. To give the mean girl's comment too much attention is to validate her point -- which doesn't deserve it, no matter what your daughter weighs, because it's none of the mean girl's @#$%&*! business.

It's not clear, however, whether the girl who was mean to your daughter is chronically mean, or if this was a one-time event that was out-of-character for her, since you say she had been one of your daughter's "best friends."

I don't know whether it's appropriate to your daughter's specific situation -- you'll have to be the judge of this -- but if you know the mean girl's mother and feel comfortable phoning her, you might want to let her know what her daughter said to your daughter, if you think that she (the mother) would disapprove of what her daughter said and be willing to talk to her daughter about the inappropriateness of her behavior. The mother might be able to make her daughter understand that what she said was wrong and that she should feel bad about it; if the mean girl apologizes and learns from her mistake (i.e., not repeating what she did), then your daughter might want to forgive her and invite her to the party, if there's still time.

Good luck on this.

Posted by: catlady | March 1, 2007 10:47 AM

Chrissy, wow- that is a huge lie. As someone said I think it can be recovered from if he truly loves you and wants kids and gets a reversal and is honestly sorry for his stupidity and lies- but he should not do it or anything else unless he truly realizes he wants kids otherwise he will just be doing it to hold on to you and he would resent any children you had. The false pretenses thing is huge and I am sorry someone deceived you like this. I usually do not believe in divorce unless there is some type of abuse- and that is what this was. Good luck and God bless.

Posted by: Chris | March 1, 2007 10:49 AM

I believe reversing a vasectomy is only 50% effective.

You need to answer these questions for yourself:

Did he tell you he wanted children before he did this?

Is he remorseful or apologetic at all about what he's put you through for the last few years?

How did you find out he had a vasectomy? Did he tell you?

I agree with the others here; if he has deceived you about such an important part of your lives together, what else has he lied to you about?

His credibility with you should be down to near zero, but you need to decide if life with him is still worth staying with him, even if it means no children.

If you do feel you can still live with him, see if he's willing to look into IVF or other means of conceiving. Just because he's had a vasectomy doesn't mean he's infertile.

Posted by: John | March 1, 2007 10:50 AM

How lovely that so many people need to emotionally prepare themselves to see their children at the end of the day. You'd think that since you just got the whole day off from their whiny incessant demands that you wouldn't need yet another hour to get ready to see them, but I guess not.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 10:52 AM

Girls, there's a newe use for children, it appears that a Pueblo,Co. mother used her 5 month old child as a down payment for a car, WOW what creative thinking, of course tragically she got caught which means she'll do 2 years and the child will end up in foster care and faces a totally ruined life thanks to the government.

Posted by: mcewen | March 1, 2007 10:54 AM

Thanks, Catlady, all good points. I don't think this girl has been chronically mean, but maybe it's just never been directed at my daughter before.

I've been itching to call this girl's mother, I know she would disapprove and want to speak with her daughter about it. If it was MY daughter who said something like that to another girl I would want to know and have a talk with her about it . . . however I don't think that my daughter will appreciate me getting involved, and I think that I should let her defend herself in this case without getting the other girls mom involved. I may change my mind . . .

Posted by: Fairfax | March 1, 2007 10:55 AM

Oh, Chrissy, I am so sorry that this has happened to you. I have no idea what to tell you to do (just as I have no clue what Matt in Aberdeen was trying to convey). He -- knowingly -- has lied to you for years. This will be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to overcome in a marriage. My first reaction was that you should get out immediately and seek counseling. Just my two cents.

Posted by: WorkingMomX | March 1, 2007 10:57 AM

"How lovely that so many people need to emotionally prepare themselves to see their children at the end of the day. You'd think that since you just got the whole day off from their whiny incessant demands that you wouldn't need yet another hour to get ready to see them, but I guess not. "

Hey CBC, how come you don't sign your posts anymore?

Posted by: to CBC | March 1, 2007 11:01 AM

on topic: We moved to NC to get rid of the commute. We read the paper on the train when we commuted. That was the only benefit of commuting. Our goal is to never have a daily commute again. It isn't so much about not having time, but rather, the general sense of waste. There is just so much life I enjoy more.

Megan's neighbor/aka nc lawyer:
We're big on walking to school. The new high school will also be in walking distance. We're psyched. I'm not sure it is decompression time as much as shoot-the-sh*t time for my boys. Sometimes I worry they decompress too much in class...but that is another story.

pittypat:
With husband out of town, one boy not getting home until 9pm from high school team sport and another boy busy with his sport, things can get really slow around what everyone else calls the dinner hour. With most friends busy then, it is easy to do what Fred does and check out the blogs during commercials or while writing. The conversation quality is prime.

Scarry:
Do you go out for a quickie at your gym this morning? You mentioned going yesterday.

Posted by: dotted | March 1, 2007 11:02 AM

I listen to music and unless I REALLY have to be somewhere (pick up a kid), I think about how much money I save by NOT getting in an accident and burning through gas, simply by not racing to the next red light.

Really though, music helps. I have a nice assortment of CD's in the car, in case I don't feel like listening to the radio.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 11:03 AM

There isn't any car in the world that is worth giving up my kid.

Also, it's not about emotionally preparing ourselves to see our children, it's about being emotionaly present WITH our children when we are with them.

If more parents were focused on this we wouldn't have nearly the amount of newscasts reporting yet another shooting or car jacking or whatever.

So.... do whatever it takes to switch those gears - our kids are worth it.

Posted by: cj | March 1, 2007 11:03 AM

D'oh. Thanks foamgnome, for setting me straight. Chrissy's topic is much more important than commute griping. Glad to see the topic de-railed so early. I can not believe so many people have struggled with this issue! It is inconceiveable- please forgive that pun- that people would lie about wanting to have children just to get married furthermore waiting YEARS to say otherwise, or reveal such a deep dark secret is sick, sick, sick. That is such a huge qualifying interview question for dating before marriage- if the answers do not match up, you go your separate ways. That he would lie about it, and then go have an operation... I can not even comprehend such deception because having children is something important to humanity- especially when there is a limited time involved. This is just another indicator of how far society has fallen. I am sure if you left him if you can not work something out, you will be able to find someone who does really want kids.
I am with Megan's Neighbor and Matt... if you can not fix- or un-fix as the case may be- things in a hurry, ditch the dirtbag. Try some counseling or talking to a pastor. If this guy truly loves you he will regret what he did and undo it and try to spend the rest of his life making it up to you- if he is not willing to make a stand for you then he will never regain his lost honor and you should cast him aside ASAP. People like him make me sick, but I have to say give him a chance to redeem himself- but life is too short to waste it away trying to fix someone like that if they do not want to straighten themselves up.

Posted by: Chris | March 1, 2007 11:04 AM

What Lizzie said.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 11:04 AM

This is a "grass is greener" type of topic. I have a nearly 1-hour commute (by car) one way, and would chew on glass for a shorter one. As a matter of fact we're looking into moving to be closer to my job.

There are definitely good things about my commute, though -- I can plan my day on the drive in, and decompress on the drive home. The highlight of my week day is picking up the kids at day care. But as soon as I get home I have to hit the ground running -- wash DS's bottles, take out contacts, eat dinner (DH does all the cooking, bless him), clean up the kitchen, give DD and/or DS a bath, prepare DS's formula and bottles for the next day, pack my lunch, pack DD's breakfast, supervise DD's cleaning up, give DS his bottle, put DD to bed, etc. Even with DH and I sharing most of these tasks, I'm lucky to be able to sit down and relax for an hour before going to bed at 10 in order to get enough sleep to get up at 5 and start it all over again.

DH and I are good about giving each other "the night off" if the other one has had a rough day, so if I didn't have a long commute I think I'd still get to decompress when needed.

Posted by: 2kids2love | March 1, 2007 11:04 AM

I FOUND THAT A LITTLE MEDITATION HELPS IN A LOT OF WAYS. 20 MINUTES BEFORE THE EVENING HUSTLE BEGINS, I MEDITATE. YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE A PRO AT IT. JUST FIND A COMFORTABLE CHAIR, SIT DOWN AND CLOSE YOUR EYES. THINK ABOUT SOMETHING NICE OR FUNNY OR SOMETHING THAT MAKES YOU FEEL GOOD INSIDE. 20 MINUTES LATER YOUR ARE REFRESHED AND READY TO GO.

IT DOES TAKE A LITTLE PRACTICE, BUT YOU CAN LEARN TO MEDITATE OR "MENTALLY COMMUTE" VERY QUICKLY AND YOU CAN BENEFIT IT FROM IT RIGHT AWAY.

Posted by: The Dead Zone | March 1, 2007 11:05 AM

Scarry:
Do you go out for a quickie at your gym this morning? You mentioned going yesterday.

Ha, I actually meet my husband there and we switch the kid or she goes to the onsite day care to play.

There is a hot trainer there though.

Posted by: scarry | March 1, 2007 11:08 AM

Chrissy's topic is much more important than commute griping.

I agree.

Posted by: foamgnome | March 1, 2007 11:09 AM

Has anyone found playing recordings of books in the car (what used to be called "books on tape"), or on their iPods or whatever relaxing? I know some people who swear by this. Also, a few friends listen to foreign language instruction tapes to improve their skills, especially before traveling abroad. I'm too lazy, but maybe others here are nobler...

Posted by: catlady | March 1, 2007 11:13 AM

Fairfax wrote: "I don't think that my daughter will appreciate me getting involved, and I think that I should let her defend herself in this case without getting the other girls mom involved. I may change my mind . . ."

This is an excellent point. I just reread your original post, in which you state that your daughter is 10. If she were younger, I'd say definitely get involved. If she were older, I'd say definitely let her handle it herself. This is sort of a "tweener" situation, though, where you know the exact circumstances better than the rest of us ever will.

Posted by: catlady | March 1, 2007 11:16 AM

So, he didn't tell you he didn't want kids, snuck off to be vasectomized AND he told you it was "your fault" that the two of you coudln't conceive?

I'd chat with a physician (STDs), a therapist and/or a clergymember and a lawyer, in that order.

Who knows what other big and little issues he's lied about.

Posted by: MdMother | March 1, 2007 11:16 AM

Chrissy's topic is much more important than commute griping.

I agree.


Me, too. And stongly agree on the counseling. It might be tempting to say that this guy did something stupid on the spur of the moment and maybe he can be forgiven, but it doesn't sound like it. It sounds like it was a well thought-out plan and he's never really had any regrets. But it's probably reasonable to give him one chance to go to counseling and try to work it out.

It's one thing to go into a marriage disagreeing about 1 kid vs 2 and figuring you'll resolve it later on, but 0 vs not-0 is one of those big issues on which there should be agreement.

Posted by: Army Brat | March 1, 2007 11:17 AM

"there shall not be male or female barren among you, or among your cattle" (Deuteronomy 7:14)."

First of all, I just have to say this. What does fertility have to do with cattle? Imagine them "keep the infertile ones away from Bessie" what's up with that.

Fairfax - That sucks. I agree that she should not be required to invite anyone she does not like. I'd also like to chime in on how to handle it. It isn't about your dd being fat at all, it is all about how this other girl feels about herself. I remind my children to pity mean people becuase it comes from a place of chronic unhappiness. Dosn't mean you have to tolerate it, but responding to it does just fan the flames. I also think that your dd is learning an important life lesson that sometimes people close to us let us down. Sometimes you really think you know and trust someone and they betray you - it is a very hard lesson. DO NOT adress the issue of whether your dd is fat. That is immaterial - her friend feels bad about herself somehow and wanted to make someone else feel bad too. Finally, I'd also use this as an opportunity to develop some empathy. Talk about how these words make her feel and help her try to remember those feelings when she feels like saying something hurtful to someone. OR she could punch her little friend in the face. Good luck. I'm reading a book called "The Hidden Culture of Agression in Girls" that talks about a lot of this stuff and it frightens me.

Posted by: moxiemom | March 1, 2007 11:17 AM

Chrissy's topic may be more important, but I have nothing to say about it. There could be more to the story beyond what we know to date. I don't have anything to add beyond what others already wrote.

A long commute, the dead zone, whatever you want to call it, does put too many families over-the-edge. It is important as a discussion also. I gather there are many people out there debating what to do to improve their family life. Removing that dead zone is one way out.

Posted by: dotted | March 1, 2007 11:19 AM

Crissy, if you love the guy you too will find a way to have a child. If you don't then move on.
Deception is a bad card any way it's played.

Posted by: John | March 1, 2007 11:19 AM

You may need a shoulder to cry on right now. Please try not to talk to family and friends about this. Maybe you could just say that you are having a hard time about something and you would like their support, but don't really want to talk about it.

If you share this with others and then decide to stay with your husband, it would be very difficult to be around others who know this much personal information. Even if you forgive him, others won't. They will treat him, and you, differently.

He will always be 'despicable' for what he did, and you will always be 'stupid' for staying with him.

Posted by: to Chrissy | March 1, 2007 11:20 AM

Moxiemom: On a lot of levels, girls are far worse then boys. They scare me too.

Posted by: foamgnome | March 1, 2007 11:20 AM

Scarry wrote: "There is a hot trainer there though."

Scarry, there's a saying that marriage is like being on a diet. You can look at the dessert cart all you want, but you just can't have any!

Speaking of which, was I the only one who thought George Clooney looked totally hot on the Oscars Sunday evening?

Posted by: catlady | March 1, 2007 11:22 AM

while i may not think back fondly on my commute i may think back fondly to all the books on tape i listened to that i wouldn't have been able to listen to when i'm at home or work. it all depends on what you do with your time.

i need time to decompress from the whiney incessent demands of my co-worker who are bitter & angry like some anon posters. what's the matter, cbc, your married lover still married to that awful woman who breeds?

Posted by: quark | March 1, 2007 11:23 AM

WorkingMomX and I were having a discussion on the "On Parenting" blog.

WMX said "I don't want to be around for every waking second of my teenager's life. (And God knows I hear WAY more about it than I want to.) I think part of the process of separating from your parents (so you can become a successful and happy adult) is doing things on your own without one of your parents looking over your shoulder. We can't always be around to make the right choices for our kids. My husband and I feel the best we can do is raise them right and then let them try their wings, so to speak."

I think that this is a great statement about parenting. I do try in general to raise my kids this way. I told WMX that I have a story about my AF dau which relates to this. So here is the story.

My AF Dau's first deployment was to Turkey. She was 19 then. She flew from the US to Istanbul and then was to make a connection to another city in Turkey. The flight from Germany was way late and she missed her connection to the other city. She was by herself and had never been overseas before. So, I got a call from Turkey when I was driving to work. "Dad, I missed my flight, the next seat is not available until tomorrow afternoon. What should I do?" She was very upset. I told her to call her AF sergeant. She said she had tried but the number was not working. I had kept a list of all the contact numbers so I gave her another number. She did contact her sponsor. Her sponsor told her to get a hotel room and take the next day's flight. With the aid of the airlines, she did find a room. Now, here is the part that made me proud of her. Did she sit in the room and cry all night? No, she went out to explore this interesting city. (Yes, she checked on what would be safe). She visited the Blue Mosque--a world famous building, she went to the Grand Bazaar and saw some other sites. The next day, she hopped on the flight southwards.

That was 2 yrs ago. When we were talking on Tuesday about her going overseas again, I mentioned how proud that I was of her for taking the opportunity to explore rather than being a couch potato. She told me that I had never told her that before! My bad. She also said that she had read about Istanbul and the sights when she was in 10th grade. She could not expect that 2 years later she would be seeing them in person.


Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 11:23 AM

Moxiemom: On a lot of levels, girls are far worse then boys. They scare me too.

Posted by: foamgnome | March 1, 2007 11:20 AM

Agreed foam - boys will punch you in the face and leave it at that. Girls will relentlesly and systematically destroy your soul if you let them! I always liked hanging out with the guys more than the girls anyway - no drama!

Posted by: moxiemom | March 1, 2007 11:23 AM

""It's called Consumerism. There's a big epidemic in the United States.
People are buying a lot of stuff to fill the emotional and other voids in their lives. They are also using shopping as a substitute for a social life. There is treatment."

I'd love to see how this guy lives without purchasing anything."

Meesh, I'm not defending the Consumerism comment, but this reminded me of a fascinating article in the Post about a group of people who have bought nothing new in the last two years.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/17/AR2006121701122_pf.html

Posted by: Neighbor | March 1, 2007 11:26 AM

moxiemom:OK, now the deeper question, how do we prevent our daughters from becoming one of those girls? I need to read that book. I certainly don't want my DD to be a victim but I would be equally disturbed if she became a bully as well.

Posted by: foamgnome | March 1, 2007 11:27 AM

Chrissy,

That is huge! I look at it a betrayal of the highest but that's me. Did you guys have a conversation about whether or not you wanted kids and how many, if adoption was a possibility, before getting married? Then again he might have lied at that time as well. You can go the kick him to the curb, recover and move on with life route or you guys can sit with a psychiatrist and work through this. Hope everything works out for you.

Posted by: petal | March 1, 2007 11:27 AM

Neighbor: I read about those Pact people. Sounded kind of extreme. A new toilet brush is considered consumerism. Doesn't buying a used one defeat its purpose?

Posted by: foamgnome | March 1, 2007 11:28 AM

Chrissy, I can't imagine what you're going through. To lie, to spend money and time and effort to permanately preclude something that is both a normal option for couples and something that you obviously wanted sincerely, and then to blame you for something you had no control over (and that he did, and knew wasn't going to happen) is beyond awful.

My first instinct would be to go to the doctor (and see if he's also given you an STD, as the vasectomy may have been to allow for unfettered and unprotected extramarital sex) and then a trusted councellor/clergy/friend to discuss what you need to find closure on this issue. I would dump him out the door so fast his head would spin, with a divorce filing citing gross misrepresentation and emotional abuse (all that 'it's your fault' stuff IS ABUSE when he knows it's him).

Take care of yourself. Don't let him continue this cycle. My thoughts are with you.

Posted by: Rebecca in AR | March 1, 2007 11:28 AM

Fred, love your story. Sounds like you gave your girl a good foundation, and she's well prepared for whatever life throws at her. You never know when you'll miss your flight in Istanbul.

Posted by: WorkingMomX | March 1, 2007 11:28 AM

I buy a new toliet brush at least every 6 months!

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 11:29 AM

moxiemom, and others who are interested, there's another book titled "Odd Girl Out" about girls bullying and being bullied in school. It's a very informative book.

Posted by: Meesh | March 1, 2007 11:29 AM

I read the blog while I am watching a show I recorded from the night before, paying bills, writing the HOA newsletter, blah blah blah. I think once the weather gets better you won't see much of us after work.

Posted by: KLB SS MD | March 1, 2007 11:31 AM

Have you considered a Spenard divorce? LOL!

Posted by: To Chrissy | March 1, 2007 11:33 AM

moxiemom:OK, now the deeper question, how do we prevent our daughters from becoming one of those girls? I need to read that book. I certainly don't want my DD to be a victim but I would be equally disturbed if she became a bully as well.

Posted by: foamgnome | March 1, 2007 11:27 AM

Agree foam - thanks Meesh - I'm as afraid that my dd will become one of those girls as I am she will be the victim. I think the most important thing we can do is set a good example and make sure that we don't gossip and dimish other women in our lives, at least not in front of our dds. I also think that we must activly provide positive role models for our dds to combat the stuff coming at them through the media. I'm trying to come up with a person of the week program here for both kids where we will hang up the picture of the person and talk about the qualities we find laudable in that individual. Not all famous or "successful" people either, grandpa is on the list and kindness and decency are qualities we admire. It sure is a tough row to hoe.

Posted by: moxiemom | March 1, 2007 11:34 AM

"He will always be 'despicable' for what he did, and you will always be 'stupid' for staying with him."

Yes, which is why she should tell them so they can talk some sense into her!

Posted by: scarry | March 1, 2007 11:34 AM

On Topic Comment (believe it or not!)

As I said, I have an hour plus commute each way. I would be very happy to not have it. I do use the time to decompress as I like to keep home life and work life separate. Fredia asks me how I can stand to commute, I just tell her it is because I love her. We are able to live in a small town and very near the beach.

When we moved to Ala. because of the hurricane, I worked from home. Had to go all the way from the bedroom to the living room. Although, it was like a second honeymoon, it just was not enough work/home separation for me. I would get easily distracted and not with the laundry.

My boss is now letting us work 1 or 2 days/month from home. I am really liking this plan.

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 11:35 AM

I think that getting daughters involved in Girl Scouts is a great way to help ward off 'mean girl' issues. With a good leader they become a team with their troop and learn how to get along and cooperate with other girls. With a bad leader, the girls become cliquey and 'mean girl' behavior increases (maybe YOU could be a GS leader? Your daughter will love it!)

Posted by: to foamgnome | March 1, 2007 11:35 AM

Fred,
Great story. There is a lesson there for lots of us - we can never assume that our friends and family know how we feel about them (loved, proud). Even if they "know" it is sure good to be told once in a while.

Posted by: KLB SS MD | March 1, 2007 11:38 AM

GS and moximom's ideas are great. I don't think enough parents are proactive to stop the mean behavior. Hard to tell which one my DD will become. She already has some victim type behaviors and her developmental delays don't help. On the other hand, she really doesn't seem as affected by her peers yet. I see pros and cons with that stage of development.

Posted by: foamgnome | March 1, 2007 11:39 AM

"How lovely that so many people need to emotionally prepare themselves to see their children at the end of the day. You'd think that since you just got the whole day off from their whiny incessant demands that you wouldn't need yet another hour to get ready to see them, but I guess not."


You are mean spirited. What an ugly comment.

I don't have children and I live alone and I STILL value that commute home. It just allows your brain and mood to shift from work to home. As I'm walking out the door from work, I cannot IMAGINE running errends or making dinner. Then 25 minutes and a chapter of an audiobook later, I'm ready for Life, Part 2.

These folks aren't saying that they drive laps around the block to avoid seeing their kids--they're just saying that a good thing about an unavoidable fact of their lives (commuting) has at least one silver and that is giving them time for unwinding, having a few minutes of "me" time, and mentally shifting from office monkey to mommy/daddy is a GOOD thing that they appreciate.

Jeez. Get a grip.

Posted by: Cate | March 1, 2007 11:40 AM

My 5-year-old daughter is extremely sensitive to any kind of slight by her friends. I know it will just get worse when she gets older and the other kids get meaner/more sophisticated in their insults.

We are trying to do role playing now so that she gets comfortable reacting in an appropriate way when someone is mean. I think it is helping a little, even if it's just some added confidence to keep her from bursting into tears at any slight.

Posted by: Neighbor | March 1, 2007 11:41 AM

First - Thanks you Brian for not writing on the Daddy Wars.

Second - there have been several articles on this in past year. The crux of "research" is exactly what Brian is talking about - that people are so busy in their regular lives that they use the commute as their private time. With all the technology available such as blackberries, satellite radio, ipods, cell phones, - that this is considered leisure time for many.

As I sit here I am listening to a report on addiction to blackberry's, email and cell phones. Long communtes can feed into that addiction.

Moxie and Meesh - haven't looked at the whole blog but I have had "Odd Girl Out" recommended to me by several mothers. The whole bullying discussion deserves a day.

Posted by: cmac | March 1, 2007 11:41 AM

Neighbor, thanks for the link. Fascinating!
This line caught my attention:

"One Compactor points out that the group's members are not really denying themselves much. Boyd says that, for example, by buying less new, "I drink way better wine now." Also allowed: services. So they could buy a massage if they wanted to. They can go to movies, theater, concerts, museums, bars, music clubs and restaurants. They can fly, drive (and buy gas), stay in hotels."

I think that our anonymous friend would think that this defeats the purpose. I think it's just fine--reuse is better than recycling!!! We love craigslist.

Posted by: Meesh | March 1, 2007 11:42 AM

Chrissy,

Dump the bas****. He lied. He Lied LARGE! Men just do not get a "v" on the spur of the moment. Most all doctors will not perform the operation without a lot of questions as to the reason the man wants it. I see no reason to trust him!

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 11:42 AM

I have to talk to people all day long - many people.
We do surgical procedures on people while they are awake (under local anesthesia). They like it when we talk to them throughout as it helps keep their anxiety down and makes the time go faster. By the time I get home I am talked out. There are days I don't want to answer the phone for a couple of hours. Thank goodness for called ID.

Posted by: KLB SS MD | March 1, 2007 11:42 AM

Re: Calling Girls Fat

I had jutting breasts and a well rounded bottom when I was eleven.

Some of the Queen Bees in school called me fat.

My father explained to me what was going on with these girls.

Posted by: Trixie | March 1, 2007 11:43 AM

Fred,
I agree with you.

Actually, I remember how I had to sign a 'permission slip' when my husband was fixed. The doctor made sure I was aware and knowledgeable about what was going on. The fact the guy did it BEFORE getting married showed he knew he couldn't get one later.

Posted by: dotted | March 1, 2007 11:44 AM

Having read "Odd Girl Out", "Queen Bees and Wannabees", "Reviving Ophelia" (and a whole host of books regarding sons too), PLUS turning therapy into my hobby when it wasn't my job--the best way to prevent your kid(s) from becoming a brooding beast is fairly straightforward.

1) Be honest--humans are aggressive. If you prefer a direct approach, demonstrate it. Less sniping and sulking demonstrated by parents = less likelihood of kids trying it, getting "rewarded" for it, and making it their life habit.

2) Do not use insider information as coin. Treat a confidence as such.

3) In the same general way, don't be wishy-washy about committments to others. If you accepted the invitation and something "better" or even BETTER! comes along, stick with your first choice.

4) Be honest. If you screw up, and we all do, admit it, fix it if possible and take steps to prevent it from occurring again.

5) If your kid IS being a butt-head, don't make excuses, take action.

Basically, model what you want your kids to do, expect some slips along the way, and try to build alliances with other adults/parents in the process. Presumably most of us WANT kids to grow up to be okay people, right?

Don't panic!

Posted by: MdMother | March 1, 2007 11:46 AM

CMAC -

I had to step away from this wonderful blog to use the ladies room -- as I was walking in another attorney was too....with her blackberry!!!

How long are you planning on being here? Talk about addiction.......

Posted by: cj | March 1, 2007 11:48 AM

Not to defend Chrissy's husband here, but, we don't know that he blamed her or said it was all her fault. She wrote "He made me believe there was something wrong with me." It is possible that when she wasn't conceiving she assumed it was her fault. It is also possible that he did blame her. The point is that we don't know and should ask for more information rather than jumping to conclusions.

It is my understanding that having the man checked is the first step in infertility testing. Maybe I'm wrong, but we don't really know what steps Chrissy went through to get pregnant other than having sex.

People are not perfect. Granted, he may be a scumbag, but he also may just be a human being who did what he did because he didn't want to lose her. What he did was wrong, continued lying was wrong, but he did finally come clean. They both took vows, and I believe that no one should end a marriage without at least trying to fix the problems.

Here's a new blog topic - trouble in a marriage. How far should you go to save a marriage and when should you give up? Are there any benefits to staying together for the sake of the children? How do you find balance between work and children when half of the children't time is spent in another household?

Posted by: huh? | March 1, 2007 11:48 AM

Thanks guys, for all your advice and support.At this point, I'm not sure what I will do. I do love him very, very much. There's seven years of history I'm not sure I just want to throw away. But I am also very angry and hurt.Before we married, he and I seemed to be pretty much on the same page as far as kids. Two of them, no matter the genders.

But I know now that this stems from his past. When he was 16, he got his girlfriend at the time pregnant. It was an ectopic pregnancy and she died. I know he's had issues dealing with this, but not to this extent. (Yes, I was aware of this before.) He claims he feels responsible and did this to prevent it from happening to me. I'm stil very confused and uncertain how to take this.

Counseling was mentioned here a lot, and that might be a good idea. He is apologetic for not having told me, but does not seem to be for having the procedure done. I'm sure I'm going to need some counseling just to somehow handle that we may never conceive our child together. It's hard to say right now. Maybe adoption will be an option later on. I just don't know.

At any rate, the wife in me wants to forgive him, seek help and repair this somehow. I'm not very religious but I do take my vows and committment very seriously. That and I've never been one to give up on people easily. So, we'll see.

Posted by: Chrissy | March 1, 2007 11:48 AM

speaking of addiction: Pitty: I rarely blog into the night - last night I posted till 6 or 6:30 after work, but my kids were sitting next me finishing their homework and then we went out to eat.

I couldn't possibly post till 10 or 11 - I am asleep by 10 usually. Except for last night I watched LOST, which I thought was excellent.

Posted by: cmac | March 1, 2007 11:52 AM

Lies, lies, lies and more lies. Excuses, excuses, excuses.

He lied to you for seven years. He tricked you into marrying him. He has allowed you to believe for a long time that there might be something wrong with YOU that would lead to not being able to conceive and has let you suffer through the years of trying and failing to conceive.

The survivor in you needs to run, and run now. He clearly needs counseling and you will, too, but you're going to be fine. Just go.

Posted by: to Chrissy | March 1, 2007 11:54 AM

Sorry, another book I would recommend is "Don't Shoot the Dog!" by Karen Pryor.

Yeah, if you can successfully raise and train a dog, a fair amount is applicable to children too. Well, at least to the age of 5 or so. When/where to poop, how to behave around company, play nice with others, etc.

4H is another wonderful program and there are SO many venues they offer! I never cared for GS, I wanted to join the Boy Scouts instead. Much more action--less jabbering.

Posted by: MdMother | March 1, 2007 11:56 AM

When he was 16, he got his girlfriend at the time pregnant. It was an ectopic pregnancy and she died

Is this even true?

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 11:57 AM

I'd love some ideas on improving my commute. I commute with my 14 month old and husband -- 35 to 45 minutes in the car. Because she's so tired, my daughter whines and fusses a significant chunk of the time. I hand her books, etc, but she inevitably drops them and starts whining again. Eventually, she'll just break down and fully cry for the last ten minutes of the ride. It makes the commute tremendously stressful for all of us. I used to take the metro -- but her tiredness and fussing was causing me too much stress (for fear of bothering other passengers), so now we're on this plan.

My daughter is pretty active and curious --so she likes to look at books while on the way home. But she's limited to what she's holding on her lap (can't move enough to reach into the bag of books we carry with us) -- so when something drops, it's all over.

Thoughts on what I can do to make this easier for everyone? I am wondering if I am going to have to switch her day care just to accomodate this? Or will it improve when she's better able to communicate with us?

Posted by: DC Mom | March 1, 2007 11:58 AM

No offense Chrissy but if we was only afraid of you dying from pregnancy, there are other ways to make a family. Like adoption. Or just spending some more time with a high risk fertility specialist or even an ob/gyn. Any ob/gyn would tell you that death from an etopic pregnancy is not that common because most pregnancies are not etopic to begin with. If he was that scarred from the beginning, adoption would still be a viable option. But that fact that he is not at all sorry about the procedure and lied for literal years, is really still wrong. Counseling should be a must. Seriously, how can you ever begin to trust someone who has lied to you for 7 years? And seriously if he is this upset, then he is not exactly father material till he deals with his past. He needs counseling in of itself. If nothing else to learn that he did not cause her death.

Posted by: foamgnome | March 1, 2007 12:00 PM

In very rare cases, a women can die of etopic pregnancy. I believe they die of internal bleeding. The baby gets too big and it bursts the fallopian tube. I think in most cases, the etopic pregnancy is found out pretty early on. Even with a burst tube, it does not necessarily kill you. But the fact remains, most pregnancies are not etopic. Given this knowledge, they could have done earlier sonograms to assure the fetus implanted in the womb versus the tube.

Posted by: foamgnome | March 1, 2007 12:03 PM

DC MOM - is it possible that your child is not getting the appropriate rest from her current daycare? Can you sit in the back with your child to help soothe her? Is she hungry? Can you sing to her?

My son was also a bit fussy during some rides. He most always settled as long as I was singing.

Just my thoughts....

Posted by: cj | March 1, 2007 12:04 PM

I don't know this man and I don't know this woman either (though I'm saddened by her story.)

It seems to me that the thing to do is focus on positive steps she could take, rather than rant about how terrible/awful/spineless/amoeba/jerky/liar/bastard he is....given that none of us know him or what his issues are.

Posted by: P. Nut Gallery | March 1, 2007 12:06 PM

Peanut Gallery, go ahead and name some positive steps.

Posted by: Okay, then | March 1, 2007 12:08 PM

"Girls, there's a newe use for children, it appears that a Pueblo,Co. mother used her 5 month old child as a down payment for a car, WOW what creative thinking, of course tragically she got caught which means she'll do 2 years and the child will end up in foster care and faces a totally ruined life thanks to the government."

Thanks to the government? Maybe foster care isn't optimal, but I would not blame the government for ruining this child's life. It's the mother who tried to sell the child and the father who seems to be out of the picture. I would say that if there's any blame to be laid, it should be primarily laid at their sorry feet.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 12:08 PM

DC mom: We have a 15 minute commute from day care to home. On the last block DD would often cry. Try small toys, books, and music CDs. Also a snack helps an awful lot. I find singing and talking about what is outside helps. Mostly it is just immaturity and they will grow out of it. Also little trick, attach a string or a piece of fabric with velcro to the car seat. Then add the velcro backing to the book. You can do this with several books. Book drops, baby pulls string and recatches the book. It takes them till around 18 months to figure it out but once they catch on, bingo. Also I safety pinned fun looking things to a towel. Hang towel on the back of the seat. Gives them something fun to look at. You can change the items fairly often. With older toddler, you can talk about the new items. Of course, sometimes, I forget what I put on their. And DD will ask why is the cow sitting in the bath tub? It is kind of funny. Our conversations work more like, "mummy, cow bath. Ha ha " "want cow tub".

Posted by: foamgnome | March 1, 2007 12:09 PM

Chrissy, your husband has been lying to you before you married him and ever since, about a very important part of your commitment to each other.

Everything he's said to you up to now you really need to re-evaluate; if he lied about this and kept it secret from you for over 7 years (and told you he wanted children BEFORE marrying you!), you really cannot trust anything he's ever said to you, including the "my 16 yo girlfriend died when I got her pregnant" story.

Sure he's apologetic about not telling you; he can see you're angry and badly hurt, and is probably only now realizing this could be serious grounds for divorce. I agree that both of you need to get some counseling, but this is a hurt that may just not heal.

If you do end up believing him and he truly is apologetic (and you still want a child with him), he can still father a child with you using various medical procedures.

Posted by: John | March 1, 2007 12:10 PM

DC Mom posted, "I'd love some ideas on improving my commute. I commute with my 14 month old and husband -- 35 to 45 minutes in the car. Because she's so tired, my daughter whines and fusses a significant chunk of the time. I hand her books, etc, but she inevitably drops them and starts whining again. Eventually, she'll just break down and fully cry for the last ten minutes of the ride. It makes the commute tremendously stressful for all of us. I used to take the metro -- but her tiredness and fussing was causing me too much stress (for fear of bothering other passengers), so now we're on this plan.
"Thoughts on what I can do to make this easier for everyone? I am wondering if I am going to have to switch her day care just to accomodate this? Or will it improve when she's better able to communicate with us?"


DC Mom, Is one of you sitting in the back seat with your daughter on the way home? I'm sure some will disagree, but in our family, we found the stress level for everyone declined measurably when one of us was in the back during our daughter's 2 - 3 year. Your daughter's been away from both of you all day and a little direct attention and snuggling might make all the difference. Instead of her holding the book, you hold it together, make eye contract, talk about her day. Doesn't matter if it's you or your husband. The alternative you mention, moving your daughter to a care provider closer to your house to shorten the ride for her, will make her farther away from you if there's an emergency or mid-day sickness. Plus, we never liked changing providers if our kids were happy in their present setting. It wouldn't be my choice, but you might nonetheless prefer it.

Rebecca in AR, it's good to see you back and dispensing the same sensible advice you always dispense.

Posted by: Megan's Neighbor | March 1, 2007 12:11 PM

"....given that none of us know him or what his issues are."

Don't know him, but I can clearly see all of the red flags popping up all over the place.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 12:11 PM

Or will it improve when she's better able to communicate with us?

Posted by: DC Mom | March 1, 2007 11:58 AM

Oh, boy will it ever. If she's at all like my kids you will get an endless barrage of questions ranging from why we only have one sun to what's poop made of. You may look back fondly on the "fussing" in the car. Have you tried music some Wiggles CDs or something - of course that depends on what will make you less crazy, fussing or 45 mins of the Wiggles - sounds like a faustian bargain. Good luck!

Posted by: moxiemom | March 1, 2007 12:11 PM

Fo4, What's your metro route? These days, I am driving more than metroing, and I am usually only on the red line, but if I saw you, I might say hello if I were feeling extroverted enough (I am really quite shy).

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 12:14 PM

45 minutes of the Wiggles on a daily basis might cause me to quit my job and to hel& with the mortgage.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 12:17 PM

Chrissy,
Dump the bastard and thank your lucky stars you did not have children with such a dishonest jerk. You will recover from this. Be strong.

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 12:18 PM

Emily, You're customarily one of our consistently understanding, ever-tolerant, "until we walk a day in his moccasins . . ." posters - "dump the bastard" is not what I expect from you, LOL.

Posted by: Megan's Neighbor | March 1, 2007 12:20 PM

ROFLMAO @ 12:17

Posted by: Chris | March 1, 2007 12:21 PM

How do we know there really is a Chrissy? Maybe someone made her up to keep this blog getting more hits. There've been other fake characters, some even with their own blogs.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 12:21 PM

"Thanks to the government? Maybe foster care isn't optimal, but I would not blame the government for ruining this child's life. It's the mother who tried to sell the child and the father who seems to be out of the picture. I would say that if there's any blame to be laid, it should be primarily laid at their sorry feet."

Anon @ 12:08--

Be careful. You're feeding this guy exactly what he wants. He's a habitual troll who's embittered over the custody arrangements his wife got.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 12:22 PM

to anon at 12:21
There were over 500 postings yesterday. I don't believe this blog has any problems getting eyes.

Posted by: dotted | March 1, 2007 12:23 PM

Wiggles is what gets dinner ready in my house!!! THANK GOODNESS FOR ALL OF THEM!!!

Now if you can tell me why my kid refuses pizza......

Posted by: cj | March 1, 2007 12:23 PM

I remember watching the wiggles when we lived in Sydney. Local boys made good.

Posted by: dotted | March 1, 2007 12:23 PM

I can't catch up with the comments and I'm sure this has been well covered, but Brian, the days I work from home I often turn of my computer and sit and read my book for 10 or 15 minutes before walking out of my office - just to have a little downtime, let go of work, etc. I do miss having a short train commute for that reason.

One day a week I have to drive to the office, which in the winter weather is taking almost 2 hours each way, and I hate that. I also had an almost two hour train commute for a year, and that was ok in the morning (this was before kids when I could get out the door with my coffee and breakfast in hand and chill out on the train) but sucked in the evening. I think the 10 minutes reading in my office beats either driving or a long train commute.

Posted by: Megan | March 1, 2007 12:28 PM

cj, you must switch your kid to Blues Clues or Clifford immediately or you will have surely ruined his or her life. Better yet, get out an I Spy book and let her try to find the fork or the shark in the photo - that'll occupy her for at least 10 minutes.

Don't worry about pizza hating. Introduce her to Bagel Bites. They microwave nicely and even though they are tough as leather, they are universally loved by the under-7 set.

Posted by: Megan's Neighbor | March 1, 2007 12:29 PM

AND Emily. LOL- you sound like you have not been listening to John Denver lately. Try some metal to help vent that aggression instead of bottling it up inside.

Posted by: Chris | March 1, 2007 12:36 PM

Chrissy, thanks for the clarification. I agree his story may (MAY) explain the V. But to my mind, whether he wants kids and why/why not is secondary, almost to the point of being a red herring. This isn't about a guy who was scared to have kids but scared to lose you so who did something stupid and regretted it. This is about a guy who was willing to let you suffer for FIVE YEARS when he knew damn well what the problem was.

Whether or not he wants to have kids, whether he can (or should) reverse the V, whether you can do IVF or adopt -- those things can all be negotiated down the road. But the one thing that is nonnegotiable is being treated with decency and honesty and respect. He has shown none of the above. His story about the ectopic pregnancy does not even come close to justifying how he chose to treat you after he decided to get the V done. What's the old line, character is what you do when nobody's looking?

So, again, please go see a counselor. I don't believe you should dump him immediately, especially in the heat of the moment. But I do think you need some help to work through the way he has treated you. You need to understand whether he is really sorry for lying to you, deceiving you, and letting you suffer for 5 years, or whether he's just sorry he got caught. And even if he is sorry, what steps is he taking to change the way he acts, and what steps will you need him to take so you can forgive and trust him again? Once you figure all that out, IF he is sincere about changing and you are sincere about forgiveness, THEN you can move on to discussing the kid issue.

You deserve better treatment than this. Please do yourself (and him) a favor and require that of him.

Posted by: Laura | March 1, 2007 12:40 PM

Now if you can tell me why my kid refuses pizza......

Posted by: cj | March 1, 2007 12:23 PM

CJ - there are many questions that have plagued mankind - why are we here, is there a God, why all the suffering, and why won't my kid eat....(fill in the blank). My ds will eat frozen chicken nuggets, but won't eat a potato product of any kind (fries, chopped, mashed). Who doesn't like mashed potatoes? Makes me crazy!

Posted by: moxiemom | March 1, 2007 12:41 PM

Re the Dead Zone: This solution probably won't apply to everyone, because I'm an introvert. But my husband and I both found that our Dead Zone lasts at least an hour after getting home from work. We realized neither of us enjoyed trying to force conversation when we were tired and hungry and cranky so we usually read books during dinner. Then we relax together after dinner with a coffee or a glass of wine and have a real conversation.

In both our families the Family Dinner was a big ritual where we all sat around the table and talked and it was supposed to promote togetherness etc. I can honestly say I HATED it. ALWAYS. It did not make me closer to my parents or any of the things the studies say. It was like fingernails on a chalkboard. As an introvert who has to spend all day with other people (whether at school or at work) the first thing I need at home is time spent without speech.

I understand my loved ones sometimes need contact from me sooner than that, and all we can do is compromise, I guess. I do know that my introversion is one of the reasons I've chosen not to have kids--I am so unhappy when I don't get enough time alone and while I would not neglect my kids, I would sure as heck be a cranky mom until they were old enough to be out of my hair a bit more.

My commute helps with this a lot too: a 35 minute walk, with my mp3 player on. Exercise plus musical enjoyment plus two nice parks to walk through = much happier worker bee.

Posted by: worker bee | March 1, 2007 12:42 PM

Waht's this about on I Pod player and recharger that is wired through your glovebox? Our son used the CD player as a piggy bank a could years ago and that broke our radio/cd player. that was almost 2 years ago and we still haven't gotten around to replacing! I have short commute, but i would really love some music during the long summer vacation drive up to Maine! Any recommnedations on a place that installs such an item?
thanks!

Posted by: 20003 | March 1, 2007 12:47 PM

Megan's neighbor: Hmm...notice how guys tend to wait giving out advise of this kind? Partially because there always seem to be a lot of details you need to know before offering advise. But here goes one of the guys stepping up to answer.

First, it does remind me of an ethics class discussion where the difference between men and women was marked. If asked how to handle knowledge of an equal friends couple (know both persons involved equally well) where you find out one of them is cheating, all the females said they would definitely tell. All the guys had caveats. In the end, we agreed that we would tell the cheater in private to fess up, else we would tell the victim ourselves. I think women always tended to act on the empathic point, putting themselves in the victim's shoes. Guys looked at a variety of possibilities, context and circumstance, even though they considered the problem equally grave. One context example was worry that the other might already know, but wanted it to remain publicly unknown. Making it clear that the information is now public would then end up making the victim feel forced to act (divorce, etc.) I found the discussion very interesting. Guys had a much larger "not my problem field" about them on this (for you Douglas Adams fans), and worried about many other considerations.

Now to Chrissy: I actually do agree with what one anon poster said here. Until you make up your mind, seek counseling or tell only those who you are sure won't gossip about it to your larger circle of friends/family. Because if you do ultimately decide to stay, you can't undo those who will be infinitely judgmental (and there are always some.) Your husband may deserve that, but you will get caught up in that judgment as well, and it takes a long time to undo, if ever.

I appreciated you adding some additional context in your second posting. If that did happen to your husband, I could see the trauma. You don't mention your ages, but I'm suspecting that you were both young when you married--which meant that this trauma was still somewhat fresh for him. That's not an excuse for him, of course, but it does explain some of his messed up mindset.

Personally, whether he reverses his decision, regrets it in a way that makes you believe that he means it, I'm not sure even in context with his earlier trauma that I could fully heal the doubt that comes from lying about something to basic and important in your married lives. If he couldn't trust you enough to tell you about his inner feelings on something of this magnitude, what does he feel the need to share? As others have said, what else might he have concealed, or will later conceal? We don't know his personality type, but even if he is strong silent type that doesn't talk about his feelings, if he isn't your partner enough to share his concern on this, then is he really your husband?

Look into your heart. Can you really get over the resentment on this, especially if you end up unable to concede? If you suspect he answer is no, don't wait until you're middle aged and filled to the rim with bile over it. Deal with it now, because it would be more merciful for both of you. If you can TRULY forgive (and remember, forgiveness if more for you and your soul, not his), then make it unblinkingly clear to him now that if you can't share life's big items like this as partners, then you aren't really meant to be husband and wife. You've been dealt a pretty tough hand, but as they say God don't burden you with more than you can handle. So you must be one pretty strong woman. Whatever you decide, I wish you the best of luck.

I'll answer the today's topic in a separate post, since this is already so long...

Posted by: Texas Dad of 2 | March 1, 2007 12:48 PM

"I think women always tended to act on the empathic point, putting themselves in the victim's shoes."

Texas Dad of 2, I'm not at all sure what I said by inviting comment from the guys that ticked you off, but I find the above to be patently sexist and offensive. My response to Chrissy wasn't about feelings and oh what a shame, it was about honesty and integrity -two things which are non-negotiables for me in friends, lovers and spouses, but may not be on everyone's or even the majority of everyone's essential list -- and getting away from viewing this issue as about whether or not one wants children. For me, life is just too short to spend with someone who isn't watching my back as I watch his. More than with most topics, your mileage may vary.

Even in as limited a sample as this blog, the women and men take a wide variety of approaches to complex problems and dilemmas.

For today, I'm with Fred, Emily and Lizzie. Tomorrow, I'm sure you and I will agree on something else.

Posted by: Megan's Neighbor | March 1, 2007 12:57 PM

"Hmm...notice how guys tend to wait giving out advise of this kind? Partially because there always seem to be a lot of details you need to know before offering advise."

WTF? What more do you need to know than what Chrissy first offered? He has been lying to her about his vasectomy since their engagement. Sometimes there's no grey, dude.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 1:01 PM

Re: Ipod player/recharger

You can use your power port for an ipod player that will recharge. My car is 7 years old and has a power port in the front and back. It will play through a preset radio station - so you may have to tinker with it as you loose stations during long drives.

We've traveled up to OH before and only had to adjust the station once or twice - 88.1 or 88.3 FM are 2 good stations in the Wash Metro area that seem to have a pretty good travel area.

Posted by: CMAC | March 1, 2007 1:01 PM

Chrissy,
I hope you get counseling for yourself before you decide what to do. I agree with the poster who recommended that you not discuss this with family as they are bound to take sides which might make your decisions much more difficult. I think it will be hard for them to be objective. You and your husband are the only ones who know the truth about your relationship and if it can be saved.

Posted by: KLB SS MD | March 1, 2007 1:07 PM

Texas Dad of 2

"In the end, we agreed that we would tell the cheater in private to fess up, else we would tell the victim ourselves." Right, men do this all the time!

I have yet to meet so noble a man. and I would deck anyone who stuck his nose in my private business.

Don't men tell women their hubbies/S.O.s are cheating so they can crawl into bed with the wronged women?

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 1:12 PM

On today's topic...I never underestimate the value of living very close to your work. When you add up the hours of a day, week, month, and year, that you waste (don't get back) from commuting, living close becomes very attractive. Sleep and work already eats so much, so why give more to your job in a long commute? You sure don't get paid for it...

With that said, I live about 10-20 min from my job (by car) from where I live, depending on traffic.

A little side note from a motorcycle guy. I've already tried to reside to the Easterly direction from my job. That way in the morning I drive West, with the sun at my back. Then in the evening, I drive home East, again with the sun at my back again. It amazing how much nicer it makes driving home (and reduces those facial lines from squinting from staring into the sun on the horizon).

================

Megan's neighbor:

I was talking about the women in that ethics class with that statement, sorry if you took it as a more global one. Perhaps I worded it poorly. They themselves said they put themselves more in the victims shoes only for the question at hand, and didn't care as much about extenuating circumstances. They said if they were in that situation, they would want someone to tell them--nothing else mattered TO THEM. I considered that an act of empathy on their parts. You can add on all you want about how society treats infidelity, who commits it and why, etc., and also add self-interest on their parts.

I also don't think the guys in the class that day (or those of us on this blog) care any less about honesty or integrity. I know I don't. And I sure hope Chrissy didn't feel like I underplayed the importance of it, once I got to actually talking about her issue.

And note that I separated this ethics question from the response to Chrissy, for a reason. My only point was to note that just as in that class, I seemed to notice this morning that guys weren't quite as quick to jump into this answer either. Perhaps coincidental, perhaps not...

Posted by: Texas Dad of 2 | March 1, 2007 1:15 PM

There is no Chrissy. Janet Cooke just made her up to get back at the Post.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 1:21 PM

Guys, really. We all have no idea if there is a Chrissy, a foamgnome, an Emily, a fo4, ec... We have to take it for what it is worth and believe she is telling us the truth. If she is not, then wow, she would have bigger problems then a lying cheating husband. But I believe she is telling the truth. I also think it is nice there are anonymous blogs for real painful issues when it is difficult to talk to friends and family. It never dawned on me not to talk to my family about such an issue. But the long standing resentment that family members may have towards her husband is a real threat. Nice to have a place to share when you need it. Even if it is an anonymous blog.

Posted by: foamgnome | March 1, 2007 1:24 PM

Texas Dad of 2

What time were you born yesterday?

The men in your ethics class are a big bunch of liars! Right, men blow the whistle on their buddies' sexual escapades and strongarm their chums into 'fessing up to the wives all the time! Have you been clubbing lately? Don't forget your big gun!

You're going to need it!

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 1:26 PM

Re: iPod in GloveBox

Several brands of car now make personal music player playback standard, either with a jack in the dashboard that you would plug into with a cord that looks like the headphone cord, or the "full integration" deal where you get the big cable that goes into the bottom of the iPod and the whole contraption lives in the glovebox.

If you are handy you can run two male RCA cables (the round ones that are red-and-white) from the back of your car stereo (assuming you have a spare auxilary feed) to a female headphone jack up through your ashtray. Then you could plug up to the headphone jack for a total cost of like $30. If you aren't handy expect the car stereo guys to charge you $75 to take everything apart.

I suspect that A Dad and I are driving the same model car with the "full integration" since he mentioned being able to control it via his car stereo controls. Much easier, but a high-dollar option to the car.

Posted by: Proud Papa | March 1, 2007 1:31 PM

Texas Dad of 2, I'm with you, my husband faced a similar dilemma with a friend and that's exactly what they did (talked to the cheater privately & asked him to disclose to his wife, who is also a friend of ours). I'm not sure the gender difference you observed would hold true across the board though, as this is what I would do too.
I think it's pretty poor of anonymous posters to scoff at the concept of men (or anyone) behaving honorably. It does happen, folks. Nice and truthful and upright people of both genders do exist.

Posted by: worker bee | March 1, 2007 1:32 PM

"There is no Chrissy. Janet Cooke just made her up to get back at the Post."


Someone is showing off his memory or age!

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 1:32 PM

My ex cheated on me for 1 year before I found out through the girl he slept with (after we had already broken up--someting along the lines of "It's a good thing you dumped him because we were sleeping together the whole time.") I was friends with all his friends who all knew what was going on. No one told me, and I'm not friends with them anymore.

However, I also cheated on different ex for 4 years, and none of our friends told him, so it really does go both ways. Not all women are quick to jump in and solve the problem.

Posted by: Meesh | March 1, 2007 1:33 PM

Age more likely!

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 1:33 PM

It's hard to believe your future husband would be able to get a vasectomy so young, with no kids, etc. Maybe he made up the vasectomy story because he's naturally sterile, but didn't want anyone to know (out of some misplaced sens of shame), so thought a lie about an operation would be less humiliating in the face of an upcoming sperm test? It could explain why he waitede so long to tell you.

Posted by: To Chrissy | March 1, 2007 1:35 PM

Age more likely!

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 01:33 PM

What, and you're planning on dying young?

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 1:38 PM

"I think it's pretty poor of anonymous posters to scoff at the concept of men (or anyone) behaving honorably"

When was the last time you went clubbing?

When it comes to nookie, men are dogs and their motives are rarely honorable. That's why so many parents of teens have grey hairs, wrinkles, and sleepless nights.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 1:39 PM

"Maybe he made up the vasectomy story because he's naturally sterile, but didn't want anyone to know"

Still Major lies about a subject that they had discussed!

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 1:39 PM

"What, and you're planning on dying young?"

No, I am already very old, just ask my kids!

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 1:40 PM

"I think it's pretty poor of anonymous posters to scoff at the concept of men (or anyone) behaving honorably"

Have you seen Dateline: To Catch A predator?

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 1:41 PM

To Chrissy, Why is it hard to believe that a guy under 30 could get a vasectomy done? I have known two guys who had vasectomies in their early twenties because they knew already they were not husband OR father material. Based on what I saw, they both made good decisions, with the added benefit that both disclosed this info to all potential girlfriends almost as a litmus test.

On the other hand, it seems highly unlikely to me that a young guy would have reason to have been tested to determine he was "naturally sterile".

Posted by: Megan's Neighbor | March 1, 2007 1:42 PM

"When my parents and I were scouting venues in my hometown for our wedding. He said he couldn't go because of work. In reality he stayed back home to have the procedure and nurse himself back to health." from Chrissy


Kinda blows the naturally sterile theory out the window.

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 1:43 PM

Now that we have had so many comments about my ethics class example (which I used only to answer why guys sometimes delay getting involved in tangled situations), it seems that reinacting the orginal ethics class poll here might help me prove the orginal (very minor) point.

For those still conflating the two items, note that I seperately pointed out that Chrissy's husband did something very fundamentaly wrong (no grey there), and that while I said I don't think I could personally forgive, that her opinion could reasonably vary, especially since only she knows the totality of the circumstances.

So everyone, here's the exercise. If you had direct indisputable evidence that someone in a couple you knew equally well were caught cheating, what would you do?

And if we note a true difference in the opinions offered by gender, we can talk about why afterwards...because that portion of the classs discussion was equally enlightening.

Ethics and philosophy classes were a ball...and sometimes very heated. :~)

Posted by: Texas Dad of 2 | March 1, 2007 1:43 PM

"Right, men blow the whistle on their buddies' sexual escapades and strongarm their chums into 'fessing up to the wives all the time"

It's not always the men who are doing the cheating. Maybe men blow the whistle on their buddette's sexual escapades and strongarm their galfriends into 'fessing up to the husbands all the time.

Posted by: huh? | March 1, 2007 1:44 PM

"I think it's pretty poor of anonymous posters to scoff at the concept of men (or anyone) behaving honorably"

When was the last time you went clubbing?

When it comes to nookie, men are dogs and their motives are rarely honorable. That's why so many parents of teens have grey hairs, wrinkles, and sleepless nights.


Posted by: | March 1, 2007 01:39 PM

Sexist drivel isn't any more appealing when it's posted by women. Come on. We can do better than this kind of dated crap.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 1:44 PM

"When my parents and I were scouting venues in my hometown for our wedding. He said he couldn't go because of work. In reality he stayed back home to have the procedure and nurse himself back to health." from Chrissy

Kinda blows the naturally sterile theory out the window.


Or, only goes to show he could lie to her like a son-of-a-gun

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 1:45 PM

"I suspect that A Dad and I are driving the same model car with the "full integration" since he mentioned being able to control it via his car stereo controls. Much easier, but a high-dollar option to the car."

ML-350 for me [yes, it's made the last year of commuting much more enjoyable]

Posted by: A Dad | March 1, 2007 1:45 PM

Assuming the pregnant 16-year-old gf is also true, I doubt he's sterile.

Posted by: Vegas Mom | March 1, 2007 1:46 PM

"I agree with the poster who recommended that you not discuss this with family as they are bound to take sides which might make your decisions much more difficult."

I actually disagree with this. At this point in her life, Chrissy needs to have the people around her that care about her the most, and who are willing to give her the most disinterested advice. A counselor is a great idea. But Chrissy should also feel free to discuss this with her trusted family members, even if it means that her husband's deceit is exposed to them. She does not need to protect him from his own actions. Whatever reaction he receives from them he earned. And she should not be punished for his lies by having to cover up for them on his behalf, and possibly thus distancing herself from the people who love her the most and can provide her with good advice.

What Chrissy's husband did to her is not part of some mundane couples squabble that extended family should not be part of. It is emotional abuse that endured for 5 years. Perhaps she thinks he loves her, and perhaps he does also, but no one needs this kind of twisted love that allows one person to expose the other to years of emotional suffering. It is not live. It is sick. Chrissy needs to tell whomever she trusts, even if it means they will hate her husband. She needs to get the support of people who she can depend on. Isolating herself from them is not a wise option in my opinion.

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 1:46 PM

Fred,
The Hosp Commander at WR has been relieved of his duties.

Posted by: KLB SS MD | March 1, 2007 1:46 PM

"So everyone, here's the exercise. If you had direct indisputable evidence that someone in a couple you knew equally well were caught cheating, what would you do?"

I'd like to expand the exercise. Would your answer be the same whether it was the man or the woman who was cheating?

Posted by: huh? | March 1, 2007 1:47 PM

Assuming the pregnant 16-year-old gf is also true, I doubt he's sterile.

Well, we already know he's a liar on the other stuff, so why do you think he's being honest about this? I wouldn't believe anything he told Chrissy.

Posted by: To Vegas Mom | March 1, 2007 1:49 PM

Emily,
I agree that family can be of the utmost support for Chrissy (or anyone else in her situation). My concern for her is that she still loves him very much and seems to be torn as to whether to stay or not. If she does tell her family then she and husband work out their problems there could be a permanent rift between her family and him. That would be sad but understandable.

Posted by: KLB SS MD | March 1, 2007 1:49 PM

If you had direct indisputable evidence that someone in a couple you knew equally well were caught cheating, what would you do?

Nothing. Their marriage is none of my business. As long as I did not have to participate and cover up for anyone, I would stay completely out of it. If I were in a position where the cheater was asking that I be complicit in the cheating, I would just tell them that I would not be complicit in covering up the behavior. In other words, don't count on me to lie for you or otherwise cover things up.

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 1:53 PM

I don't think keeping this development from her family means she has to isolate herself. It would be perfectly truthful to tell her parents/siblings etc. that she and DH are having some marital problems (no need to specify) and request some understanding and support while they work through them. I've seen what happens when someone tells the whole family what a dog DH is, then that someone decides to forgive said DH. Parents especially just don't forgive this kind of betrayal (or at least most -- don't want to be accused of a gross generalization :>).

Counseling is a good option. If Chrissy has a friend or sibling that she really trusts to remain open-minded and supportive about her ultimate decision, then that may be a good choice too. I'd counsel against going to a parent about this though. It's just too loaded between the betrayal of trust and denial of grandchildren.

Posted by: Vegas Mom | March 1, 2007 1:54 PM

"The Hosp Commander at WR has been relieved of his duties."

Well, good. As you know too often in the military, some enlisted man slob or very junior officer is hung out to dry and the big bosses get on with their retirement.

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 1:55 PM

I feel as tho I would do the same thing Emily said with one exception: if the person being cheated on asked me if I knew I think I would have to say "yes".
It is a tough call as I would want someone to tell me and would be upset if they knew and said nothing. Add to the question: would you want to know if your spouse/significant other was cheating? Would you expect your friends/family to tell you if they knew? If they didn't would you be angry?

Posted by: KLB SS MD | March 1, 2007 1:57 PM

To anon at 01:41 PM, no, I haven't seen it as I have no TV.
Another "balance" topic for future discussion might be television--I love not having one as I have a lot more time for other things, and I think I have a happier sense of the world than people who routinely watch the news, for instance (I do read the news but I don't see too many violent & sad images). Maybe someone who routinely does watch the news would say I'm unrealistic. Where would the balance lie between knowing as much as you need to know about the world, and limiting your exposure to things that depress you or stereotypes that anger you or whatever else?

Posted by: worker bee | March 1, 2007 1:57 PM

Regardless of the cheater's gender, doesn't it really hurt the other spouse to be told that the cheating acutally did occur? Wouldn't it be better to talk to the cheater and threaten to reveal the cheating UNLESS the cheater stopped? Unless you wanted to break the couple up.

Posted by: To huh? and A Texas Dad | March 1, 2007 1:57 PM

Fred,
Some on the enlisted have already been relieved.

Posted by: KLB SS MD | March 1, 2007 1:58 PM

"My concern for her is that she still loves him very much and seems to be torn as to whether to stay or not. If she does tell her family then she and husband work out their problems there could be a permanent rift between her family and him. That would be sad but understandable."

That is a concern, I agree. But my greater concern is that if she hides this from her family, she is disconnecting herself from a vital support network, and handing more power to an abuser (because he is abusing her) who will manipulate her endlessly, isolate her, demean her, and destroy her self-esteem. She is incredibly vulnerable right now. She needs to confide in people who are worthy of her trust and confidence. Her husband has shown her in exceptionally clear ways that he is not worthy of her trust, and that he is manipulative. She needs to distance herself from him, not her family.

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 1:58 PM

Thanks, worker bee. I thought that those anon statements saying all men are dishonorable was the only truly sexist one offered today. Glad you countered it.

And Meesh with her personal example pointed out, it works both ways.

Also, as in Meesh's case, look at the large number of people who knew and said nothing. If people feel so strongly about speaking out about such injustice, how come they didn't get involved? It's always easier in abstract to say what you would do, but always more difficult with real lives and actual people, no?

Also, with Meesh's example she pointed out that HIS friends didn't tell her. That is somewhat different proposition (though perhaps no less dishonest.) That's way I carefully set up the initial question to say that you know them (are friends with them both) equally well and equally long.

Posted by: Texas Dad of 2 | March 1, 2007 1:58 PM

Fred,
The Hosp Commander at WR has been relieved of his duties.

Posted by: KLB SS MD | March 1, 2007 01:46 PM

KLB, that's the best news I've heard all day. I hope that personnel action conveys to our returning veterans that DOD cares about how they are treated and how their needs are met after they return.

Posted by: Megan's Neighbor | March 1, 2007 1:59 PM

"If you had direct indisputable evidence that someone in a couple you knew equally well were caught cheating, what would you do?"

I would say something to the cheater and say that I was going to tell the cheated if he/she didn't. I would do this not because I'm nosy but because that's what I would want a friend to do for me. I would be very thankful if someone did that for me. I'd rather hear the truth and be hurt than be made a fool of behind my back and be happy.

Posted by: Meesh | March 1, 2007 1:59 PM

Emily.

Except for the STD possibilty, I'm with you!


I have known a number of cheaters and it never occurred to me to stick my nose in their personal business.

People tend to hate the bearer of bad news.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 2:01 PM

Emily,
Vegas mom had a good suggestion for a compromise - simply say that there are problems you are working out and ask for their support and patience. Bases covered. If they do work it out they don't have to know the gory details. If they don't the time will come for the family to know.

Posted by: KLB SS MD | March 1, 2007 2:01 PM

On topic Post (gee, 2 in the same day)

Commuting sucks! Our son had a major medical setback this am. I was already at work and Fredia's clients needed to see her this afternoon. So, I jumped in the car (actually driving the van today) and raced home. I am lucky that my boss is understanding about balance in life and that I can work from home this p.m.

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 2:03 PM

I was not thinking about STDs, but even so, I think that I would stay out of it without being complicit. In my experience, people have a pretty good sense of being cheated on. Sometimes they are in denial. Sometimes they already suspect. I would not insert myself into that mix unless I was asked a direct question about it, and if I were, then that would be a signal to me that the offended spouse already knew.

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 2:03 PM

"So everyone, here's the exercise. If you had direct indisputable evidence that someone in a couple you knew equally well were caught cheating, what would you do?"

I was in this situation about 12 years ago with a couple I knew very, very well from college. I saw "him" out with another girl, very obviously WITH her, and was incredibly upset. He saw me, too, and called me the next day. We met over lunch and he attempted to explain that he was in the process of breaking it off. I did not know what to do, and for a while, did nothing. Relations with the couple were very strained and many time, my friend (the female half of this couple) asked me if I was okay, if I was mad at her, etc. Then, my boyfriend at the time saw "him" out again with the other woman, again, very obviously WITH her. This was about 2 weeks before the wedding. I realized that if I were in my friend's shoes, I'd want to know.

I told her. She was devastated, confronted him, he denied it, she kept at it, he ultimately admitted it. They got married anyway. My boyfriend and I were asked not to come to the wedding. It was horrible and sad, but I believe I did right by my friend. As I said, if the situation was reversed, I'd want to know.

They had one child together and then he left for another woman about 7 or 8 years ago. My understanding is that both are remarried, but I'm not sure. We don't keep in touch.

Posted by: WorkingMomX | March 1, 2007 2:03 PM

My aunt cheated on my uncle and he poured his heart out to his siblings. Ultimately, he stayed with his wife and worked things out, but his siblings have never quite forgiven her. They are invited to family holiday gatherings, but not to let's-just-get-together events. Their child has spent less time with her aunts, uncles and cousins than the children of the siblings have spent with extended family.

This has been going on for twenty years.

While I agree that you may need the support of family, I stand by the "we're having trouble right now" answer to questions rather than giving details. She may be happy she withheld information if she ultimately decides to stay with him. If they break up, then she can tell her family why.

I know another couple where the man left the wife for another woman and when that broke up, he returned to his wife. I find that I can't look at him without thinking of him being such a scumbag. I bite my tongue because I care for the friendship of the woman. I feel that I should be able to forgive him if she could, but I just can't. That's why it isn't always best to know everything.

Posted by: to Emily | March 1, 2007 2:06 PM

"Some on the enlisted have already been relieved..."

If they needed to be, I have no problem with that. I was saying that punishment is sometimes is pushed down to the lowest level irrespective of who is actually culpable. You know, looking for a scapegoat!

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 2:07 PM

Do you tell a friend (work acquaintance really) that her husband hit on you at a party (not drunk)?

Posted by: KLB SS MD | March 1, 2007 2:07 PM

"Vegas mom had a good suggestion for a compromise - simply say that there are problems you are working out and ask for their support and patience. "

This is not just a problem they are working out. I think of it as abuse and a kind of emotional rape. A woman who is beaten by her husband would not be advised to cover it up until they work it out. In my opinion. This situation is parallel to physical abuse, and requires the similar steps to rectify it. The more I think about it, the more scary this husband seems to me. Chrissy should look at the Natioanl Domestic Violence website to educate herself on this topic. http://www.ndvh.org/educate/index.html

She can also call 1 800 SAFE to talk to one of their counselors.

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 2:08 PM

Emily,
This is not physical abuse - calm down. He lied. She did not say that she thinks he is cheating and she did not say that he has physically hurt her. He lied about something that is very important.

Posted by: KLB SS MD | March 1, 2007 2:10 PM

Do you tell a friend (work acquaintance really) that her husband hit on you at a party (not drunk)?

I did. It turns out he's BP I and shortly afterwards he was ragingly manic and hospitalized. At least he finally got diagnosed and treated. He's not real keen on his lithium, but he takes it anyway, as he knows that if he doesn't, he's pushed Humpty Dumpty off the wall.

Posted by: MdMother | March 1, 2007 2:11 PM

Working Mom X- Wow - I think I would have done the same thing. I would just keep thinking about if my friend found out after the fact that I knew and asked me "Why didn't you tell me?" That would have been the ultimate guilt trip for me.

I think you did the right thing.

KBL - How do you feel about the commander being relieved? I'd understand if you don't want to post an opinion. From what I just heard the person that took his place was the previous commander and says that things have been blown out of propotion.

Posted by: CMAC | March 1, 2007 2:11 PM

It's emotional abuse, which is just as bad. Maybe worse as the wounds cannot be seen.

www.drirene.org

Posted by: To KLB | March 1, 2007 2:12 PM

Fred,
I forgot, are you Army? My bro was with the group rebuilding the levees in NO.

Posted by: dotted | March 1, 2007 2:13 PM

CMAC,
I am kind of shell shocked right now. I left work early to get a delivery of a new tv (which of course hasn't arrived yet) so I don't know what is going on there now. One of my docs called to tell me. This new guy has only been in command 8 mos so am thinking that it isn't all his fault.

Posted by: KLB SS MD | March 1, 2007 2:14 PM

Dotted,

I was a Spec 4 in the Army but this was in 1971-1974. I told you that my kids think that I am ancient!

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 2:15 PM

Megan's Neighbor - thanks. Been on a R Family (Rosie O'Donnell's wife and business parner's cruise line) trip to the Carribbean. Missed you guys, though. :-)

Chrissy, I would be checking every story the guy is telling you - if he says the sky is blue, I'd get confirmation. It sounds like a really, really bad situation. And for the record, if he's been lying about this (and who knows what else) in the last seven years, it sounds like maybe those years of history aren't worth much, anyway. No marriage can be built on lies and stay strong - shifting sands make an awful foundation.

Posted by: Rebecca in AR | March 1, 2007 2:16 PM

Fred,
I shipped to basic training in Jan of 1977, retired in 2003. You aren't THAT old.

Posted by: KLB SS MD | March 1, 2007 2:16 PM

Fred,

We're both ancient!

My husband catches all the grey coming into the house. It is one of his duties.

Posted by: dotted | March 1, 2007 2:17 PM

Acura TL here. Less than a year-old and I have no-all-wheel-drive-capability remorse. I want a do-over.

Posted by: Proud Papa | March 1, 2007 2:17 PM

The fact that it's not physical abuse does not mean that it's not very serious abuse. This is emotional abuse, and it can be every bit as debilitating, and even more insidious, than physical abuse. For all those years they were married, he let her believe that this was her fault. And then he guilts her into thinking that this is a valid thing to do because of his fear that she would die from an ectopic? Ridiculous. He is manipulating her and continuing to abuse her.

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 2:18 PM

Ok - the guy did a terrible thing lying about something so big and major in someone's life. But that's all we know. We don't know if it's a pattern, if he treats her impeccably other than this, or if he is lower than low-life.

Have none of you ever done something that you regret and regret terribly? Let Chrissy digest everything and make a decision. She already indicated that a part of her wants to work it out.

I'm glad that I am not in her shoes, but if I were, I think it would be hard to completely discount the happiness in their past as being completely worthless.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 2:19 PM

I think I mentioned talking to a counselor in my post, and the 1-800-SAFE number (advised frequently by Hax, whose advice I respect) is probably a good option. Just wouldn't talk to family about the specifics at this juncture, unless Chrissy has a sibling that she has a great deal of trust in and respect for.

And I should have mentioned, I totally endorse going to the doc to get checked for STDs.

She probably could also use some time (maybe a weekend) alone to really, honestly, evaluate her marriage. If she decides to try to stay with DH, if should certainly be predicated on extensive marital counseling.

If I were in this position personally, I'd probably be filing for divorce. The betrayal of trust on something so important is something I'm not sure I could overcome.

Posted by: Vegas Mom | March 1, 2007 2:22 PM

Wow, so many angles on the Chrissy issue. I do think families hold grudges. But Chrissy really needs support right now. I would talk to a counselor first and see what the counselor thought about being up front and honest with her family. But if someone hurt DD in that way, I would want to know about it. And yes, I probably could never forgive my SIL or DIL if they did something that grave to my child.

Posted by: foamgnome | March 1, 2007 2:23 PM

"I left work early to get a delivery of a new tv"

Oh, no !!! The new tv-less people will be complaining about picking up the slack at work - LOL

(This is a joke)

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 2:23 PM

I assure you, much to my dismay that this is real. I know anyone can pose as someone else on the internet, but I can only give you my word that this is what I am facing right now.

He's not lying about the pregnancy. I knew his girlfriend--we all went to high school together. She (and he) was more of an acquaintance at the time. But it was really shocking when it was announced that she had died. She had just found out that day that she was pregnant (at least, that it was confirmed). They knew something was wrong, though and tried to get her into surgery, but it was too late. The school had a memorial for her a few days later.

As for my support system, for now I have decided not to tell my Mom. My dad died two years ago, and now she's pretty fraile. Plus, she lives out of state, and I don't want to worry her all over the phone. I do have a really good friend I've confided in, and she has suggested the counseling option too. Really, she's just there when I go through my ups and downs of anger and crying, cycling back and forth.

I do thank you all for your concern and support. Sometimes it's nice to have that from an anonymous, objective source. So, thanks again.

Posted by: Chrissy | March 1, 2007 2:25 PM

Megan's Neighbor,

Have you decided to take "Megan's Neighbor" as your new name?

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 2:25 PM

"We don't know if it's a pattern."

Yes we do. This is not a lie from his past that he did not tell. This is a lie that her continued to tell for 7 years. For some of these years, she was trying to get pregnant. He continued to lie, to let her hope for a pregnancy, wonder what was wrong with her, be disappointed month after month, hopeful month afer month, and then disappointed again. And the worst thing is he made her think it was her fault ALL THESE YEARS!!! And he now manipulates her by trying to convince her that he did it because he loves her so much and is so afraid of losing her.

It is definitely a pattern. A frightening one. Why are people defending this guy?

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 2:25 PM

"Oh, no !!! The new tv-less people will be complaining about picking up the slack at work - LOL"

I went in early, did all my work by 11 and took leave. Could have saved a couple of hours as it is 2:25 and it isn't here yet (sniff sniff whine whine).. Of course, once it gets here I have to move the old one and set up the new one. I know how to have fun.

Posted by: KLB SS MD | March 1, 2007 2:25 PM

So what size TV? Guys NEED to know this kind of stuff!

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 2:28 PM

"It is definitely a pattern. A frightening one. Why are people defending this guy?"

Same reason they defend drunks and enablers.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 2:28 PM

I remember the poster who claimed to do a bunch of porn and now was married with kids. Not one peep was said about telling the husband. Women seem very partisan to me about what happens to them and very forgiving of trespasses against men. Seems very hypocritical.

Posted by: pATRICK | March 1, 2007 2:29 PM

Fred,
I am limited by the size of the armoir that the tv goes in. That being said, it is a 37". I wanted a bigger one but that was the biggest that would fit.

Posted by: KLB SS MD | March 1, 2007 2:29 PM

klb-
high def? I have to admit I had to be convinced to get a high def, but I am now amoung the converted.

and let the snarking about rampant consumerism begin..

Posted by: dotted | March 1, 2007 2:30 PM

Dotted,
One day a little girl was sitting and watching her mother do the dishes at the kitchen sink. She suddenly noticed that her mother had several strands of white hair sticking out in contrast on her brunette head.

She looked at her mother and inquisitively asked, "Why are some of your hairs white, Mom?"

Her mother replied, "Well, every time that you do something wrong and make
me cry or unhappy, one of my hairs turns white."

The little girl thought about this revelation for a while and then said, "Momma, how come ALL of grandma's hairs are white?"

Posted by: KLB SS MD | March 1, 2007 2:30 PM

Texas Dad of 2 writes:

"On today's topic...I never underestimate the value of living very close to your work. When you add up the hours of a day, week, month, and year, that you waste (don't get back) from commuting, living close becomes very attractive."

Let me add, never underestimate the value of living East of where you work. For more than twenty years I have lived West of my workplace, driving with the sun in my eyes every morning and every evening.

My son -- O fortunatus, O terque beatus! -- now lives East of his workplace. A wise choice.

Posted by: Matt in Aberdeen | March 1, 2007 2:31 PM

True story:

Two engineers where my husband works had an affair. They were both married and had kids. They are both now divorced from the result of their affairs and the resulting pregnancy.

The guy is now running around on the woman and everyone at work knows it? So, should my husband tell her, the cheater she cheated with is now cheating? I think not and I told him to stay out of it.

Sometimes it appropriate to tell people about cheating and other times it is not.

Posted by: scarry | March 1, 2007 2:31 PM

"Ok - the guy did a terrible thing lying about something so big and major in someone's life. But that's all we know. We don't know if it's a pattern, if he treats her impeccably other than this, or if he is lower than low-life."

This is what I have to say to your comment. If these facts are as they are presented, the guy is a Major scumbag. And for a guy to call another guy a scumbag is a major insult!

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 2:32 PM

That's a cute story. The other day, my 7 year son told his uncle a little fib, and his uncle jokingly told him not to lie, and that you lose your hair when you lie. My son quickly responded "Is that why you are bald?"

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 2:32 PM

Dotted,
Yes, I confess to the LCD hi-def. The only reason I am getting a new one is the sound is going on the old CRT that I have had for 8 years. I even got cheap speakers to make it last longer but they don't work very well ergo - new tv. I use direct tv and they want $120 for hi-def receiver and $320 for receiver/dvr. I will stick with what I have for now.

Posted by: KLB SS MD | March 1, 2007 2:32 PM

Emily, You're almost as worked up over this as I am over uninformed ADD and racist comments. Keep at it - I can't come close to the completeness with which you're tackling the subject.

Fred, Just for fun, yes. shhhhh, you'll have to keep the lawyer part to yourself.

Posted by: Megan's Neighbor | March 1, 2007 2:32 PM

I'm with Emily, and I think Chrissy should seek help immediately. She's been emotionally abused. I hate to be harsh, but I'd say dry your tears, and call an attorney. If you were my daughter, I'd be giving you the same advice.

You are still young and you have time for a full life with someone who loves and respects you enough to be truthful with you.

Posted by: WorkingMomX | March 1, 2007 2:32 PM

I remember the poster who claimed to do a bunch of porn and now was married with kids. Not one peep was said about telling the husband. Women seem very partisan to me about what happens to them and very forgiving of trespasses against men. Seems very hypocritical.

1) She didn't say one way or the other if she had told him--she said she didn't plan on telling her daughter

2) When you get pregnant and see the doctor, they test you for practically everything under the sun anyway. Presumably she came up clean

3) That discussion was between her and her husband-to-be. Unless told otherwise, I'm guessing he was cool with it. Probably VERY cool with it.

Posted by: Perhaps | March 1, 2007 2:33 PM

Chrissy: I know you can't think clearly right now. But even if the ectopic pregnancy story was true. It still doesn't make any sense why years later, he would ge a vasectomy right before his wedding and lie to you about it for 7 years. Especially since you talked about wanting two children all a long. If he really wanted to have kids and felt there was a grave risk to your life by getting pregnant, you would have discussed other options. Like adoption, monitoring the pregnancy, or surrogacy or whatever. It makes no sense to believe that one girl dying of an ectopic pregnancy that he impregnated, would raise the chances of you having one and subsequently dying. I am sure if he truly believed he killed this girl, he would have sought if nothing else a school counselor, at that time of his life to deal with the issue. Also if he really thought he has some sort of killer sperm, he would have gotten the vasectomy at 18 not during your wedding planning. I am so sorry for what you are going through. But please for your own self, stop buying into his lies. It is just harmful to you.

Posted by: foamgnome | March 1, 2007 2:33 PM

Duh, pATRICK, that's because guys love porn and wouldn't mind.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 2:34 PM

pATRICK,

Porn Star told her husband. Here is her quote from the ANS blog

"i was certainly very aware of and flaunted my sexuality then. Of course I wasn't comfortable with it or I wouldn't have acted that way. I'm actually MUCH more comfortable sexually now. My husband is the only one who gets to watch my "show" now and it's much better than it used to be!"

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 2:37 PM

WASHINGTON -- The Army said Thursday that the two-star general in charge of Walter Reed Army Medical Center has been relieved of command following disclosures about inadequate treatment of wounded soldiers.

Maj. Gen. George W. Weightman, who was commanding general of the North Atlantic Regional Medical Command as well as Walter Reed hospital, was relieved of command by Army Secretary Francis J. Harvey.
In a brief announcement, the Army said service leaders had "lost trust and confidence" in Weightman's leadership abilities "to address needed solutions for soldier outpatient care" at Walter Reed.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 2:38 PM

pATRICK,

Porn Star told her husband. Here is her quote from the ANS blog

"i was certainly very aware of and flaunted my sexuality then. Of course I wasn't comfortable with it or I wouldn't have acted that way. I'm actually MUCH more comfortable sexually now. My husband is the only one who gets to watch my "show" now and it's much better than it used to be!"

That is not a confession. Sorry, nice try

Posted by: pATRICK | March 1, 2007 2:38 PM

Ex porn star may have told her husband. I don't know. I don't even remember the porn post anyway. I think it is a little different to tell about every little sexual escapade you had premaritally then to lie about something that would affect them the rest of their lives as a couple. Personally, disease aside, I really would not want to know what my SO did before me. If it doesn't affect my health or family, not a big concern.

Posted by: foamgnome | March 1, 2007 2:39 PM

"killer sperm"

I am not laughing at chrissy, I am laughing at foamgnome's killer sperm comment.

So funny and I know you didn't mean it that way. It just sound funny.

Posted by: scarry | March 1, 2007 2:39 PM

Fred

You came up with the Porn Queen quote at lightning speed!!!

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 2:40 PM

Foamgnome,
How about when the porn movies showed up?

Posted by: DC lurker | March 1, 2007 2:40 PM

The next blockbuster movie:

"The Attack of the Killer Sperm"

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 2:41 PM

Eeks, now that I read it killer sperm does sound bad. I meant some genetic anomaly that would cause someone else harm. Killer sperm is sort of short and to the point.

Posted by: foamgnome | March 1, 2007 2:41 PM

"I wanted a bigger one but that was the biggest that would fit"

Yeah, I wanted a bigger one too, but I had to settle for my husband....

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 2:42 PM

Chrissy, please clear something up.

Did he actually blame you or say it was your fault that you weren't pregnant?

Or, did you blame yourself and he didn't correct you (lie of omission)?

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 2:42 PM

Emily I just choked on my coke!

But to be serious, he is a real piece of work and I hope she gets away from him.

Such a sad situation.

Posted by: scarry | March 1, 2007 2:43 PM

OK, maybe I am vastly ignorant. But how does a porn movie show up? Are you thinking her husband was renting a naughty movie and saying, " gee dear, you look a lot like Shena Warrior Princess?" If he had the nerve to do that, I would say, why you watching such junk. But maybe I don't know much about porn.

Posted by: foamgnome | March 1, 2007 2:44 PM

Well pATRICK, if putting on a "show" for hubby is not considered admissible in criminal case, it would be good in a civil court.

The poster in question was here yesterday, maybe she will chime in today.

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 2:44 PM

"I think it is a little different to tell about every little sexual escapade you had premaritally then to lie about something that would affect them the rest of their lives as a couple."

FOAMGNOME, this is a childish post and out of character for you. It is a MAJOR deal that will affect a great many things and is complete dealbreaker." Hi BOSS, this is FOAMGNOME my wife, did you catch her in her 40 plus porn movies?" "Why yes I did, so nice to meet you". I doubt it

Posted by: pATRICK | March 1, 2007 2:46 PM

I remember the poster who claimed to do a bunch of porn and now was married with kids. Not one peep was said about telling the husband. Women seem very partisan to me about what happens to them and very forgiving of trespasses against men. Seems very hypocritical.

I seem to recall that this all occurred before she met her husband. Major difference.

Posted by: To Patrick | March 1, 2007 2:46 PM

"Fred
You came up with the Porn Queen quote at lightning speed!!!"

I have been called the institutional memory for this blog!

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 2:47 PM

I didn't see the 'killer sperm' comment until it was pointed out.

I am ishmael.

Posted by: dotted | March 1, 2007 2:47 PM

Patrick,
What porn star did in her past was not some kind of betrayal of her husband (unless she did it while they were married). I am not sure how much confession is needed about something like that. In terms of sexual history, I think it is appropriate for partners to know generally what kind of history they are marrying into, without specific details. I personally would not be comfortable being married with someone from whom I had to withhold important aspects of myself and my past. I cannot imagine the burden of keeping such secrets. And anyone worth marrying will know that they are marrying the person in the present and who got that way through a particular past, not the person who used to exist in the past. We all evolve.

But I think there is a distinction between withholding some event from the distant past and perpetuating a lie that directly impacts the life of your spouse. One is a betrayal. The other is more nebulous, although in some situations, I think it can be a betrayal also.

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 2:48 PM

Patrick: Sorry I hate all those capitals. If it was a big deal to you, then I am sure this is something to discuss. But like one of the posters said, she did admit that her husband already knew. I was just saying that people do not have to reveal all their past indiscretions to their SO. I am so removed from the world of porn, that I really can't relate to my boss seeing my husband in a porn movie. Good golly, maybe I just think these are not real moments but the bizarre imaginations of the National Inquirer (sp?)

Posted by: foamgnome | March 1, 2007 2:49 PM

I guess I didn't write clearly. I wasn't trying to debate whether or not the guy is a scumbag. I was only saying that people are multi-faceted and it's unfair to judge based only on what Chrissy said today since we don't actually know him.

I just don't agree with the people who are saying "divorce him, call the lawyer, throw the bum out". That may be the ultimate, proper outcome, but the entire relationship should be evaluated. There doesn't seem to be any indication that there relationship was bad or that there were trust issues before this.

We do send people to jail for offenses and many people believe that they can be rehabilitated. Why is it so hard to believe that MAYBE he has regrets and will work things out and they will have a family after all?

I think separation may be a good idea while things are being evaluated, but to just go straight to divorce is a little extreme to me.

Posted by: to Fred | March 1, 2007 2:50 PM

What is the original time post on the Chrissy post? I must be blind.

Will I be accused of making fun of the blind?

Posted by: CMAC | March 1, 2007 2:50 PM

Oh cmac,
given the porn-ick nature of the past few posts, I'm afraid you will be accused of other things..

see 10:12

Posted by: dotted | March 1, 2007 2:52 PM

"I think separation may be a good idea while things are being evaluated, but to just go straight to divorce is a little extreme to me.

Posted by: to Fred | March 1, 2007 02:50 PM"

OK, I can respect your point of view.

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 2:55 PM

"There doesn't seem to be any indication that there relationship was bad or that there were trust issues before this."

Are you serious? How myoptic can you be? He LIED TO HER FOR 7 YEARS continuously. Evey act of sex, in the hopes that a baby would be conceived, was a lie and a rape. And he framed it like she was at fault for not conceiving. And then he told her he did it because he loves her so much. If these are not indications that the relationship is bad (REALLY REALLY BAD), I'll eat smelly gym socks.

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 2:55 PM

Fred, CMAC,
TV is here. Wish me luck getting it all set up. These are the times I wish I wasn't single. Another pair of hands (attached to someone who looks like Sam Eliot would be a bonus)would certainly come in handy right about now.

Posted by: KLB SS MD | March 1, 2007 2:56 PM

Emily, I agree. It seems like the whole foundation of their marriage was built on a lie. But maybe we think a lie by omission is just as bad as a bold face lie. Guys, I could never let someone believe that they had something wrong with them, when all along I knew I was using birth control or had myself sterilized.

Posted by: foamgnome | March 1, 2007 2:57 PM

klb
I know you can do it. Did you label all the cables before you took them out? Doesn't matter really, but it does make for simple installation.

Posted by: dotted | March 1, 2007 2:57 PM

"Evey act of sex, in the hopes that a baby would be conceived, was a lie and a rape"

I agree with your post but this statement is riduculous.

Posted by: pATRICK | March 1, 2007 2:58 PM

I have been called the institutional memory for this blog!

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 02:47 PM

Beter than being called the "instutituionalized memory".

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 2:58 PM

I see some killer sperm mentioned and porn poster, and finally found the original Chrissy Thanks Dotted. Looks like she never posted again but not sure.

I see Chrissy has been accused of being fictional whereas everyone believed the porn poster because she came back and explained/replied.

The question about fessing up to being a porn star to your husband is very interesting............

Posted by: cmac | March 1, 2007 2:58 PM

Dotted,
I don't have much hooked up to the old one (which is still there by the way). I am pretty sure I can figure out satellite cable, DVD player, speakers and Bose radio as they all look different. No fancy surround surround.

Posted by: KLB SS MD | March 1, 2007 2:59 PM

Re: The Porn Queen

I must have been out of my mind, but I let my husband talk me into filming a home skin flick starring us. We both looked pretty good, but we must be the worst actors in the world!!!

Flash forward 20 years and my husband drops dead of a sudden heart attack. I have no idea where this video is stashed and have wasted tons of time looking through my house and garage for it. It could be anywhere. I told both of my adult children about the video. I'm not too woried about it showing up on the internet because, again, I looked darn good and my husband is my co-star.

Posted by: Trixie | March 1, 2007 2:59 PM

Patrick,
Why do you think the statement is ridiculous? I'm interested in your thinking.

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 3:00 PM

cmac
Chrissy has made two other posts too. See time stamps 11:48 and 2:25

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 3:01 PM

CMAC: Chrissy posted 3 times today. At least I think so. She originally told us her story. Then added the ectopic pregnancy part. Then reassured us she was a real person. I don't even remember reading the original porn post. Just remember this week, she popped up to say she was real too. I think original porn post was ANS day. I tuned out of that one because I really had no idea who ANS was anyway.

Posted by: foamgnome | March 1, 2007 3:01 PM

"And he framed it like she was at fault for not conceiving"

Please show me where Chrissy said this.

Posted by: to emily | March 1, 2007 3:01 PM

Trixie, we found it on ebay, we could ship it to you if you like. ;)

Posted by: pATRICK | March 1, 2007 3:02 PM

"It is a MAJOR deal that will affect a great many things and is complete dealbreaker." Hi BOSS, this is FOAMGNOME my wife, did you catch her in her 40 plus porn movies?" "Why yes I did, so nice to meet you". I doubt it"

pATRICK has an excellent point here. Having an occasional hook-up before you commit is a LOT different than staring in porn. Porn can have a very long shelf life and is undeniable when presented. I would think that the man or woman should discuss this type of involvement before a serious commitment is made. The same way that chronic illness, massive debt and the desire to have children should be discussed.

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 3:03 PM

OK, I must come out of hiding again to clarify my posts concerning my former life. I was considering creating a screen name for my alter ego here, but I would rather not post here regularly as "the porn queen" which I'm not. It appears that maybe I'm stuck posting often already?? Hope not.

I think I need to clarify the difference between being the star of a series of porns and just doing some stupid college aged girls movies. There were only a few.

On to the topic at hand-
yes, my husband knows. We met about 1 1/2 yrs after I "cleaned up" He didn't believe me. Maybe he still doesn't believe me because he's never seen it for himself. The only thing he does like and somehow finds it in his head(s) (sorry couldn't help the pun) to believe is that I was with another girl. This drives him nuts and likes nothing better than to picture that.

It was only a few years out of my life that we're talking about. My husband knew that. I would never dream of not telling him. We laugh about it now- I seriously couldn't be further from that person. We call that [my name]#1 and [my name]#2 because the 2 are just so different.

Fred, I really appreciate your kind words.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 3:03 PM

Chrissy said, "He made me believe there was something wrong with me." When he knew all along that it was him and did not fess up. He knew she was doubting her fertilty and did not fess up. He knew it was him and he did not fess up.

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 3:04 PM

Well, I think that rape is really a red herring. A lie, well yes, but was EVERY act of sex merely to procreate? No drunken quickies etc?. Rape is a serious crime and I think it degrades victims to have it thrown around casually.

Posted by: pATRICK | March 1, 2007 3:04 PM

I guess I can agree with talking about past porn activities. But since this is far from my reality, I really can't even fathom a discussion like this with anyone I was marrying. I certainly never asked DH if he had been in a porn show and would have socked him if he asked me.

Posted by: foamgnome | March 1, 2007 3:05 PM

pATRICK

"Trixie, we found it on ebay, we could ship it to you if you like. ;)"

Fantastic. How much is it going for? What is your favorite scene?

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 3:05 PM

"pATRICK has an excellent point here. Having an occasional hook-up before you commit is a LOT different than staring in porn. Porn can have a very long shelf life and is undeniable when presented."

I have to comment on this. You would be SOOOO embarrassed by having your porn watching boss know that your wife was a porn actress, as if somehow, his watching the porn is any less scummy than her acting in it? Puhleez!! Stop being such a pig!!

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 3:06 PM

"Rape is a serious crime and I think it degrades victims to have it thrown around casually."

Posted by: pATRICK | March 1, 2007 03:04 PM

Every now and then pATRICK reveals his heart of gold underneath the sometimes-inflammatory posturing.

Posted by: Megan's Neighbor | March 1, 2007 3:07 PM

LOL heartily at 02:23! Very good!

Posted by: Meesh | March 1, 2007 3:10 PM

Emily, I think you are a prude. Do you know how many couples watch porn together?

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 3:10 PM

Actually, I wouldn't be embarrassed at all. He may have watched a porn, but he did not ENGAGE in paid for sex hire which is much much worse. Similar to a kid who smokes a joint and the drug trafficker who sell tons of drugs. MAJOR DIFFERENCE. I would also bet that the porn star poster does not bring up her past at PTA meetings etc because chances are she would be ostracized and she knows it.

Posted by: pATRICK | March 1, 2007 3:10 PM

I see it as rape. This sexual act may not have accurred had she known the truth. The lie was coercive. He was getting sex that he may not have gotten, but for the lie.

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 3:10 PM

with a name like trixie..............

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 3:10 PM

"Emily, I think you are a prude. Do you know how many couples watch porn together?"

And MAKE porn together?

Posted by: Trixie | March 1, 2007 3:12 PM

I thought the argument is why do women not rat out other women. Like I said, I did not read the original post. Can we stop talking about porn?

Posted by: foamgnome | March 1, 2007 3:13 PM

Why is engaging in paid sex for hire worse than getting your jolies off by watching it. People who watch porn are so judgmental of those who make the movies, but they are just as complicit in it as the actors, because those who watch it provide the market for the product. Without the viewers, there would be no market for the movies. They are no better than the actors. The distinction is false.

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 3:14 PM

One last question for TRIXIE, did you have the awful 70's music score going too? ;) lol

Posted by: pATRICK | March 1, 2007 3:15 PM

" have to comment on this. You would be SOOOO embarrassed by having your porn watching boss know that your wife was a porn actress, as if somehow, his watching the porn is any less scummy than her acting in it? Puhleez!! Stop being such a pig!!"

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 03:06 PM

Was being a pig directed at me? If so, I did not make my post clear. I am saying that she should (and did) reveal this past so he would not be shocked or caught off guard if someone (women watch porn too, you know) saw one of the old movies and told him. As I say, to not tell your spouse or whatever about major matters in your history is a bit of deceit.

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 3:16 PM

foamgnome:

I thought the argument is why do women not rat out other women. Like I said, I did not read the original post. Can we stop talking about porn?

I find it much more interesting than talking about clothing or teacher gifts.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 3:17 PM

Seriously,
If you think that the act of engaging in sex for hire is so disgusting and morally bankrupt, why on earth would you contribute to this practice by shelling out your hard earned money by buying the product of this degrading act?

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 3:17 PM

"with a name like trixie.............."

It's a nickname for Patricia.

Posted by: Trixie | March 1, 2007 3:17 PM

"Why is engaging in paid sex for hire worse than getting your jolies off by watching it. People who watch porn are so judgmental of those who make the movies, but they are just as complicit in it as the actors, because those who watch it provide the market for the product. Without the viewers, there would be no market for the movies. They are no better than the actors. The distinction is false."

Emily is there something you wanted to tell us..............?

Posted by: pATRICK | March 1, 2007 3:17 PM

And let me make another distinction here. If a couple wants to tape themselves (egads!!) and then watch it for their own pleasure, I see nothing wrong with that. It is not sex for money. It is just another consensual sexual act between two adults.

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 3:19 PM

"with a name like trixie.............."

It's a nickname for Patricia.

How boring.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 3:20 PM

Is it porn if it is not produced for profit (a la Trixie and her late husband)?

As for the bored baby in the back seat, how about one of those soft books, with photos of the family, and a short tether?

Posted by: Two questions | March 1, 2007 3:20 PM

Emily is there something you wanted to tell us..............?

Patrick, is that your way of admitting that you don't have a good answer to my question? Thought so.

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 3:23 PM

pATRICK

"One last question for TRIXIE, did you have the awful 70's music score going too? ;) lol"

The music was much, much worse.

It was the 1968 hit In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida ! My husband was the writer, producer director,and cameraman, so I won't take any heat on this!

Posted by: Trixie | March 1, 2007 3:23 PM

Sex is about money in alot of contexts other than the porn industry, even some marriages.

We certainly have come a long way from Brian's original column, haven't we? praises be.

Posted by: Megan's Neighbor | March 1, 2007 3:23 PM

you would be surprised at how many couples film themselves in the act. ask your cellphone rep next time how many photos that they seeof people engaged inthe act

Posted by: a regualar but not telling my name for this post | March 1, 2007 3:24 PM

Fred,
Sorry. I understand your clarification and agree with it. And no, I don't think you are a pig. But I think Patick is.

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 3:24 PM

Trixie,

I doubt that even if someone found your 7os sex tape that they would be able to play it.

Posted by: scarry | March 1, 2007 3:25 PM

Emily, aren't you the former rockville of the granite countertops?

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 3:26 PM

Yup!!
Call me a prude now, why dontcha?

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 3:27 PM

1. This is a great topic! My hubby and I talk about stuff like this all the time. It's important to discuss these things way in advance.

And even though we don't have children yet (we're actually not sure if we can have any), if we do, we'll be helping them as best we can, but with the expectation that they carry some of the responsibility as well. We both did, and I think we appreciate it more in the long run.

Posted by: Chrissy | February 23, 2007 12:54 PM


2. I have an off-subject question. If the mods want to delete this, it's ok.

But I am curious about how long it took people here to concieve? My hubby says that we have plenty of time because we're young (we're both 24). But it's been a while, and nothing. Please share if you feel comfortable!

Posted by: Chrissy | February 23, 2007 01:20 PM


3. experienced mom:

A year? Wow! We stopped using birth control when we moved in together at 20. I've been to my doctor and everything checked out normal. I have a very regular cycle, to a near ridiculous point. (So much that one month I was off by one day and thought I might be pregnant. I was so excited, I went out and bought a test, took it, and it was negative. I got my period an hour later.)

It's not frustrating me yet, but I do want this to happen soon.

Posted by: Chrissy | February 23, 2007 01:30 PM


4. to Fertile Murdle:

Thanks. We pretty much do all of that. I don't think when we first started dating we were even doing that 5 times a week--and that was at 18! We're on target with all that you mentioned, including the boxers. And our bedroom is very cool, too.

To anon:

Thanks for the recommendation! I will check that out, definitely!

To "to Chrissy":

We've been off bc for nearly 5 years now. When we moved in together, we knew it would probably take a while--like maybe 2 years. And other than that one time I mentioned, (my own wishful thinking more than anything) I've never been late or anything.

Posted by: Chrissy | February 23, 2007 02:17 PM

Posted by: Chrissy's Feb. 23 posts, for reference | March 1, 2007 3:28 PM

scarry has a good point about changing technologies. Those several porn flicks we have in the closet for occasional inspiration are on VHS. I give them about one more year before they will have degraded to the point of unwatchability and the anonymity of their stars likely will be forever protected.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 3:29 PM

He never said it was my fault. It was my assumption that something was wrong with me, since he was able to get her pregnant.

But in hindsight, he never said it wasn't my fault, either. He just seemed to have a very lax attitude, since we're young, we have all the time in the world. I can see the reasoning, that we have a lot of time. But in reality we didn't, since he made that impossible to begin with.

I see the word "rape" mentioned here. While each time we did that, it was consensual, I do feel as though I was violated somehow. We stopped using birth control when we moved in together. Six months later, we were engaged. Four months after that, he had the procedure, without my knowledge. But for all of our married life, we were in agreement that if it happened, it happened. No contraception. Of course now I know why. It wasn't necessary. I even went to the doctor to get checked out. I was told everything was ok. I can almost calculate my cycle to the day and hour.

The more I think about it, the more it angers me. If he had just been honest with me and said he didn't want children, I think I would have been ok with that. I love/loved him so deeply, I would consider it if he was straight with me. But he led me to believe that it was possible, when he took steps to prevent it.

Posted by: Chrissy | March 1, 2007 3:29 PM

Emily is there something you wanted to tell us..............?

Patrick, is that your way of admitting that you don't have a good answer to my question? Thought so.


UMM, actually it was a tongue in cheek attempt at humor. I will note that you have none, so I promise not to direct it at you again.

Posted by: pATRICK | March 1, 2007 3:30 PM

""It is definitely a pattern. A frightening one. Why are people defending this guy?""

No, we aren't defending him.

We are just declining to burn him at the stake without trial, like he was a witch or something.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 3:30 PM

I'm shopping for minivans - anyone have one they like or hate? Don't want to have a discussion on them, just a little poll.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 3:31 PM

Emily, good point at 3:06 about the hypocricy of porn. There are only two ways to avoid being a hypocrite when it comes to porn and women:

1. You watch porn and love it and would treat a porn star like any other woman.

2. You don't watch porn, disapprove of it, and treat a porn star like crap.

You can't enjoy porn and then turn around and insult a porn star--that's ridiculous.

Remember the school teacher who was fired because she had been in porn? How crazy. Hello, porn is legal! It's not like she was a heroin junkie.

Posted by: Meesh | March 1, 2007 3:31 PM

I like my Dodge Grand Caravan.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 3:33 PM

I think you'd be surprised at the types of people who do quote unsavory things.

very surprised

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 3:34 PM

The more I think about it, the more it angers me. If he had just been honest with me and said he didn't want children, I think I would have been ok with that. I love/loved him so deeply, I would consider it if he was straight with me. But he led me to believe that it was possible, when he took steps to prevent it.

Posted by: Chrissy | March 1, 2007 03:29 PM


Chrissy, this sums up your problem. He lied to you over a period of years about something he knew was important to you. Do you really want to stay with a man like that?

Posted by: club fed | March 1, 2007 3:34 PM

I am heartbroken for you Chrissy, but I also know that you will come thru this. Trust your instincts. It sounds like you are thinking for yourself, and I find that encouraging. I will be sending good thoughts your way. Peace.

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 3:34 PM

Love my Toyota Sienna minivan. We might upgrade to the 2007 (ours is 7 years old) but I doubt we'll get the built-in DVD player. Don't want the temptation to watch porn as we drive.

Posted by: WorkingMomX | March 1, 2007 3:36 PM

MINIVANS???

How can we go from port to minivans?

Minivans make me more sick than porn.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 3:37 PM

Also, Chrissy, I can tell by your last post that you've got one toe out the door. Won't be long until you're on your way to a better life with a MUCH more deserving guy.

Posted by: WorkingMomX | March 1, 2007 3:37 PM

I find myself on the same side of this deal as pATRICK. (?!?!!?)

If my wife-to-be had done a bunch of porn movies, I would want to know. Not only for s3#ual/disease reasons.

It says something about her judgement, if even if her judgement has since improved. If I love her, maybe I brush it aside. But, I do see it as relevant.

I don't know what an equivalent hot-button would be for ladies....suppose your fiancee had a casual sex relationship with one of your friends for years. Would you want to know before you got married?

Posted by: Proud Papa | March 1, 2007 3:37 PM

"UMM, actually it was a tongue in cheek attempt at humor. I will note that you have none, so I promise not to direct it at you again."

I have a great sense of humor, but I can recognize cowardly hostility, disguised as humor, and don't usually fall for it. But nice try.

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 3:38 PM

Well, workingmomX, at least your commute would be enjoyable and work would be the farthest thing from your mind when you get home.

Posted by: Meesh | March 1, 2007 3:39 PM

Emily, good point at 3:06 about the hypocricy of porn. There are only two ways to avoid being a hypocrite when it comes to porn and women:

1. You watch porn and love it and would treat a porn star like any other woman.

2. You don't watch porn, disapprove of it, and treat a porn star like crap.

You can't enjoy porn and then turn around and insult a porn star--that's ridiculous.

Remember the school teacher who was fired because she had been in porn? How crazy. Hello, porn is legal! It's not like she was a heroin junkie.


"C'mon MEESH cut the crap. It is easy to be so forgiving on web blog. You and your friends would never have a major porn star as a friend and you know it. Hi I am MEESH, I work at _____. Hi I am Christy Caverns, I have hard core sex with multiple men for money. PULEEEZE"

Posted by: pATRICK | March 1, 2007 3:39 PM

It says something about her judgement, if even if her judgement has since improved. If I love her, maybe I brush it aside. But, I do see it as relevant.

Oh- yes her judgment at 16 or 17 is really relevant. Maybe we should all eb judged by our behavior at that age?? God i hope not!

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 3:40 PM

UMM, actually it was a tongue in cheek attempt at humor. I will note that you have none, so I promise not to direct it at you again.

Posted by: pATRICK | March 1, 2007 03:30 PM


Do you think rape is funny? Do you think lying to a spouse is funny?

Posted by: To Patrick | March 1, 2007 3:40 PM

"Don't want the temptation to watch porn as we drive."

WorkingMomX - LOL.

Posted by: Megan's Neighbor | March 1, 2007 3:41 PM

Proud Papa wrote "I don't know what an equivalent hot-button would be for ladies"

I think that my future husband being in porn would be a sufficiently hot button. I would want to know, but I don't think it would influence how I felt about him.

Posted by: Meesh | March 1, 2007 3:42 PM

....I can recognize cowardly hostility, disguised as humor, and don't usually fall for it. But nice try.

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 03:38 PM


See, Emily DOES have a sense of humor!!!!!!!

Posted by: To Emily | March 1, 2007 3:42 PM

"UMM, actually it was a tongue in cheek attempt at humor. I will note that you have none, so I promise not to direct it at you again.

Posted by: pATRICK | March 1, 2007 03:30 PM


Do you think rape is funny? Do you think lying to a spouse is funny?"

Did you just wake up and log on? Have you ever read any of my posts?. What does what i posted to emily have to do with this? By the way, why do you post anonymously?

Posted by: pATRICK | March 1, 2007 3:43 PM

LOL, Meesh. I just stopped the guys in the hallway laughing at your post. They wanted to know what was so funny. I told them I'd just seen their bar exam scores.

Posted by: WorkingMomX | March 1, 2007 3:43 PM

pATRICK, I don't know how to convince you. Believe it or don't. But just know that not all women are like the ones you know.

Posted by: Meesh | March 1, 2007 3:44 PM

Proud Papa, yes, I would want to know. The poster's husband knew in this case also. It's clearly a hot button for some people, and for that reason, I agree it should be one of the things on the table before marriage. Along with kids, attitudes to family, staying at home, money, and all the other major life choices.
I had a casual sex relationship for some years and it was this man who introduced me to my husband, so it was already out in the open, but there was never any question in my mind of keeping it secret. Our whole group of friends has a lot of past history which makes for hilarious conversations sometimes, now that most of us are married and more "settled".

Posted by: worker bee | March 1, 2007 3:44 PM

Proud Papa

"If my wife-to-be had done a bunch of porn movies, I would want to know. Not only for s3#ual/disease reasons"

How about if she made one movie with her husband over 20 years ago, the way I did? Am I required to disclose this to my dates?


Posted by: Trixie | March 1, 2007 3:45 PM

Chrissy,

Liars and cheaters will always be that way. I had a fiancee in the military and he cheated all the time. My sister's ex cheated too, we both finally said enough is enough.

For her, it was to late to find another husband and have that second baby she always wanted. although she married a nice guy with kids later.

For me, I was young enough to say "screw you" and find someone nice, which I did.

You are like 24 years old, you could have a baby by yourself, you could find someone amazing to date/marry, or you could adopt.

Don't feel sorry for him and don't let him guilt you with the dead girl story. You have one life and you should live it how you want too and if that means a baby, make it happen.

Posted by: scarry | March 1, 2007 3:46 PM

BTW "Christy Caverns," hilarious!

Posted by: Meesh | March 1, 2007 3:46 PM

OK, I must come out of hiding again to clarify my posts concerning my former life. I was considering creating a screen name for my alter ego here, but I would rather not post here regularly as "the porn queen" which I'm not. It appears that maybe I'm stuck posting often already?? Hope not.

I think I need to clarify the difference between being the star of a series of porns and just doing some stupid college aged girls movies. There were only a few.

On to the topic at hand-
yes, my husband knows. We met about 1 1/2 yrs after I "cleaned up" He didn't believe me. Maybe he still doesn't believe me because he's never seen it for himself. The only thing he does like and somehow finds it in his head(s) (sorry couldn't help the pun) to believe is that I was with another girl. This drives him nuts and likes nothing better than to picture that.

It was only a few years out of my life that we're talking about. My husband knew that. I would never dream of not telling him. We laugh about it now- I seriously couldn't be further from that person. We call that [my name]#1 and [my name]#2 because the 2 are just so different.

Fred, I really appreciate your kind words.


Posted by: | March 1, 2007 03:03 PM

Has no one seen the Porn Queen's new post?

Posted by: pATRICK | March 1, 2007 3:46 PM

Oh- yes her judgment at 16 or 17 is really relevant. Maybe we should all eb judged by our behavior at that age?? God i hope not!

Posted by: | March 1, 2007 03:40 PM


3:40,why would you assume "she" made the porn at 16 or 17 (when it would be illegal to do so).

What if she made it at exactly the same age as Christy's husband is today?

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 3:47 PM

If she made it at 16 or 17, she would have been the victim of child sexual abuse. In this illegal act, she would be the victim, not the criminal.

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 3:49 PM

Gee,

I have a mommy van and no porn tapes. Shows how boring my life is!

BTW, Dodge Grand Caravan. Be wary of cars/vans that have run flat tires, they cost a fortune to replace!

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 3:53 PM

"OK, I must come out of hiding again to clarify my posts concerning my former life. I was considering creating a screen name for my alter ego here, but I would rather not post here regularly as "the porn queen" which I'm not. It appears that maybe I'm stuck posting often already?? Hope not.

I think I need to clarify the difference between being the star of a series of porns and just doing some stupid college aged girls movies. There were only a few.

On to the topic at hand-
yes, my husband knows. We met about 1 1/2 yrs after I "cleaned up" He didn't believe me. Maybe he still doesn't believe me because he's never seen it for himself. The only thing he does like and somehow finds it in his head(s) (sorry couldn't help the pun) to believe is that I was with another girl. This drives him nuts and likes nothing better than to picture that.

It was only a few years out of my life that we're talking about. My husband knew that. I would never dream of not telling him. We laugh about it now- I seriously couldn't be further from that person. We call that [my name]#1 and [my name]#2 because the 2 are just so different.

Fred, I really appreciate your kind words.


Posted by: | March 1, 2007 03:03 PM

Has no one seen the Porn Queen's new post?"


I did not write this, someone else did. Wonder why they used my name- fyi pATRICK

Posted by: pATRICK | March 1, 2007 3:53 PM

I made my mistakes whenI was 18-19. And I will again reiterate that I was not a "porn star". Picture girls gone wild with some sex. Not that it makes it better, but there is a bit of difference.
I started college at 19, met my husband at 20 and we've been together ever since (almost 11 years)I have never cheated and we are very open and hoenst about everything. I'm not some low life who can't control herself or has judgment issues. It's been a loooong time. I am now the boring one. You couldn't drag me off my sofa with my books past 8pm to save your life. things change.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 3:55 PM

Fred

"I have a mommy van and no porn tapes"

You have your wife's lactation books.

And your memory can conjure up the best porn in the world. Praise the Lord!

Posted by: Trixie | March 1, 2007 3:55 PM

We love our Honda Odyssey. We even traveled with it for 2 months, camping-- it was wonderful. Nice to have the capacity to fit 8 if necessary. They thought absolutely everything out. Good mileage, too, for a minivan.

Posted by: Neighbor | March 1, 2007 3:57 PM

I like the Honda Odyssey. I don't own a mini van but brother and SIL do. They love it.

Chrissy, I am glad your starting to see what he has done to you. I wish you the best of luck.

I would rather talk about anything else besides porn. Come on guys- can we designate that to Fridays or Sex after baby blog day?

Posted by: foamgnome | March 1, 2007 3:58 PM

Trixie,

Trouble is that Katrina took away the big book of breasts or was the title the book of big breasts? This was the fully illustrated in color one.

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 4:02 PM

foamgnome, it's not your blog. we can talk about other things.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 4:03 PM

Foamgnome,
Sorry about the porn soapbox. I'll get off it now. I need John Denver in the worst way at the moment.
Peace to all - (even you, Patrick:))

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 4:04 PM

foamgnome, it's not your blog. we can talk about other things.

I am not saying this is my blog. Just asking politely. Clearly consensus wins. I will retreat.

Posted by: faomgnome | March 1, 2007 4:04 PM

Porn or Minivans, now that's a hell of a choice. Both bad.

Posted by: pATRICK | March 1, 2007 4:06 PM

KLB,

I am glad that you have your 37" LCD tv and not any bigger. I bought a 37" HiDef but Fredia would not let me buy a bigger one that my son and I wanted. Fredia said something about needing new kitchen cabinets, beds, other stuff like that.

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 4:06 PM

Don't retreat, FG,
You are perfectly entitled to make a request. What would you like to talk about. I think the porn discussion pretty much burned itself out anyway.

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 4:07 PM

Emily, thanks. It is really OK. I need to go get DD soon anyway.

Posted by: foamgnome | March 1, 2007 4:08 PM

Fred, sorry about the book loss. Ha ha! Can you check it out at the Public Library?

Posted by: Trixie | March 1, 2007 4:08 PM

Ford minivans stink.

Chevy Venture is okay, along with the Toyota mentioned above.

But by most accounts the Honda Odessey is the best. They are supposed to come out with a hybrid version that is already in Japan that gets about 40 mpg--either this year or next.

I may look at one of those, if they aren't too expensive.

Scarry, do you think your history as mentioned above explains part of the strength of your convictiosn on these topics? Also, on the true story you menioted, I guess the cheated on spouse on the second round can't exactly act like this behavior is totally out fo the blue, huh? That guy was a real peice of...work. Break up two families, start another one and then cheat again. These types give all guys a bad name.

Don't know how our conversations always turn to sex by the end of the day, but I can't say I detest it. :~)

And for the record, I also think disclosure of a porn history would seem to be necessary, and our porn lady says she did. Case closed. I do have one little curiosity left, though. Just how many movies did she said she did? There does reach apoint where it seems like there have been just a few too many to overlook. Not to mention that with vast numbers out there, more chances that people how know you might see them.

Kinda agree with her husband's view on one point though. Can't explain why, and it's not fair, I know. But while the idea of two men together seems yuk and gross, two women together is just smokin hot. Is that double standard a source of endless confusion for you ladies??

Posted by: Texas Dad of 2 | March 1, 2007 4:08 PM

Am i the only one who enjoys porn?
I have a thing for girl on girl (and i'm not kidding here) in porn but would never do it in real life. SOmething about it being taboo i guess since I also have a thing for being taken advantage of- like the other person wants me so much that they can't control it, even if it's inapporpriate (like i'm the student, they're the teacher or again, a girl going down on me, but i wouldn't reciprocate)

Posted by: anon for this post | March 1, 2007 4:10 PM

Look up your book title at:
http://www.worldcatlibraries.org

Type in your zip code and it'll list all the libraries with the book, starting with the nearest to you. If no place is nearby (a real problem for you in NO), you can always request it through Inter Library Loan.

Posted by: To Fred | March 1, 2007 4:11 PM

Texas Dad of 2

"But while the idea of two men together seems yuk and gross"

Then why did you have so many questions about lenghth and girth? Can't be that yukkie and gross to you!

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 4:12 PM

Holy cow, this blog has taken on a life of its own.

Texas Dad of 2, my husband says the same thing. I think it's a Seinfeld quote: It's hot, it's women, and I agree with both of them. Or something like that.

Posted by: WorkingMomX | March 1, 2007 4:13 PM

OK, If I were Leslie and just popped on to read this blog, I would be HORRIFIED! Let's keep it together people!

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 4:13 PM

Ladies, IMO a cheating guy is ALWAYS a cheater. No one deserves to be cheated on. This isn't the only time he's cheated, it's just the first time you caught him. By the way, dodge minvans suck, my mom's is a rolling death trap.

Posted by: pATRICK | March 1, 2007 4:13 PM

"two women together is just smokin hot."

I have forever been baffled by this. I am the only female (other than my mother) in a family full of men, and my brothers think this also (as does my husband). I find porn (of any kind) to be not so much scummy, but just not appealing. Sex by itself is so unromantic. What makes it romantic to me is the context, the depth of the relationship, the love between the partners, the emotional part of it. I know it sounds cheesy, but there you have it.

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 4:13 PM

Porn or Minivans, now that's a hell of a choice. Both bad.

Posted by: pATRICK | March 1, 2007 04:06 PM

at least porn doesn't represent that death of a young man's dream.

Posted by: Megan's Neighbor | March 1, 2007 4:13 PM

If the weather permits, I always take the kids for a walk when I hit the door. They get some attention, and the worries of work slowly fade out.

Posted by: Tomcat | March 1, 2007 4:14 PM

We currently have a Kia Sedona (2006) and like it pretty well - decent sound system and cargo room is great (fold flat seats rock). If we'd had the cash, we'd have replaced the old Dodge Caravan with the Toyota Sienna, but since the budget wasn't there, it was a Kia. Surprised at how much we like it - and we drive long distance regularly, have slept in it (it's a bit narrower than the old van, so the back seat isn't 100% comfortable for stretching out, but fold the seats down and we can fit an air mattress in the back.

Posted by: Rebecca in AR | March 1, 2007 4:15 PM

I have forever been baffled by this. I am the only female (other than my mother) in a family full of men, and my brothers think this also (as does my husband). I find porn (of any kind) to be not so much scummy, but just not appealing. Sex by itself is so unromantic. What makes it romantic to me is the context, the depth of the relationship, the love between the partners, the emotional part of it. I know it sounds cheesy, but there you have it.

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 04:13 PM

BARF, emily. come on- haven't you ever just been f*ck*d??

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 4:16 PM

Porn or Minivans, now that's a hell of a choice. Both bad.

Posted by: pATRICK | March 1, 2007 04:06 PM

at least porn doesn't represent that death of a young man's dream.

THAT WAS DAMN CLEVER! I bow to your superior wit.

Posted by: pATRICK | March 1, 2007 4:16 PM

Texas Dad of 2

"two women together is just smokin hot."

Right, your daughter and the Porn Queen.
Smokiiiin Hot!!!


Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 4:17 PM

Nope, not sexually, anyway.

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 4:17 PM

Trixie and "to Fred"

Do not need a book, I have the real thing!

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 4:17 PM

Is everyone done with today's topic?

My input not as a WOHM who need to "switch gears" from work to home but as someone who knows what a full house with hyperactive hungry children and a puppy and two meowing cats is like during the witching hour.....

I don't think it really matters how long your commute is - if you have even a 3 minute commute it can be used to decompress. I have been known to use a quick trip to the grocery store to do just that - just to switch from "daytime" to "evening." Once my husband or older son is home to stay with the younger ones, I go for 15 minutes, turn on the radio to something I like, and just enjoy the quiet. Sometimes I even sit in the car for a couple more minutes when I get home before I go inside. ;o)


Posted by: momof4 | March 1, 2007 4:20 PM

Fred
"Do not need a book, I have the real thing!"

But will she respect you in the morning, you bad, bad boy?

Posted by: Trixie | March 1, 2007 4:20 PM

BARF, emily. come on- haven't you ever just been f*ck*d??

Posted by: | March 1, 2007 04:16 PM


Nope, not sexually, anyway.

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 04:17 PM


And the winner is
.
.
.
.
.
Emily!!!!!!!

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 4:21 PM

momof4,

get rid of the cats. you'll be happier.

The Dog

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 4:21 PM

Concering pATRICK's comment on the Dodge death traps

My AF dau survived a head on collision in her mother's van. She was going approx 45 and the car that hit her was going about 25. Airbags deployed on both vehicles. The other driver walked away without a scratch. My dau had some minor cuts on the inside of her mouth. I could not even tell what brand the other car was as the front was sheared off.

BTW, this was AF's present to Fredia 2 days before she went to basic training.

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 4:23 PM

I didn't read all the comments, and being that it's after 4 pm (had a killer sectioning project that lasted all day, and it's still not done), I'm sure the topic has strayed. But I have to put in my two cents: I'd give anything, ANYTHING for a five-minute commute. Or no commute. I'd rather visit the fifth circle of hell than spend time sitting on my behind in traffic. There are so many better things I could do with my time than sit behind the wheel of my car. Metro and buses are not so bad, because then at least I can zone out, read a book or whatever, and not have to pay attention to the road. I hate driving. I'd find the time to decompress elsewhere, if it meant having no commute. How sad that people's work and home lives are so stressful that they would rather sit in traffic than be at home with their families!

And before anyone says I should move closer to work or work closer to home, there are no Universities in Rockville (MC does NOT count), and you have to be a student to get housing close to the University.

When I move to CA and start law school, I'm going to get an apartment across the street from campus, sell my car, and walk every single day. I can't wait.

Posted by: Mona | March 1, 2007 4:24 PM

Get rid of the dog, he's so much more work. You know what they say, Cats rule and dogs drool.

The Cats.

Posted by: momof4 | March 1, 2007 4:25 PM

Mona, Mona, Mona, boy did you miss the boat!!!!

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 4:25 PM

Mona,

You cannot SURVIVE in Ca without a car! Trust me on this.

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 4:26 PM

Scroll down a bit Mona, you don't know the half of it.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 4:26 PM

No, Emily is not the winner in this case. She has never had a good f**k. That's just a shame

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 4:27 PM

Leslie/Brian/Wash Post... This is clearly not the purpose of this blog, to be hijacked by a bunch of people to talk about whatever they would like. I try to check in on this blog regularly to glean some advice from veteran parents and feel connected to new parents like myself. What you've got here now, is an out of control subculture talking about whatever it is they chose. It's really juevenile and saddening.

Posted by: Not what I came for... | March 1, 2007 4:27 PM

"Scroll down a bit Mona, you don't know the half of it"

Mona's name is pretty sexy.

Posted by: Trixie | March 1, 2007 4:28 PM

No, Emily is not the winner in this case. She has never had a good f**k. That's just a shame

Posted by: | March 1, 2007 04:27 PM


You weren't there, how would you know? Just blowin' out your butt again, like usual.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 4:28 PM

No "Dead Zone" for me today!!

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 4:29 PM

"Leslie/Brian/Wash Post... This is clearly not the purpose of this blog, to be hijacked by a bunch of people to talk about whatever they would like. I try to check in on this blog regularly to glean some advice from veteran parents and feel connected to new parents like myself. What you've got here now, is an out of control subculture talking about whatever it is they chose. It's really juevenile and
saddening."

I know someone said I had no sense of humor, but for some reason, I find the above post ridiculously amusing. But that's probably because I happen to be very juvenile and immature (and prudish).

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 4:29 PM

"What you've got here now, is an out of control subculture talking about whatever it is they chose. "

Right, like those God awful Nursing Nazis!!

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 4:30 PM

I think that Leslie will have to redact some posts today. Some of them are just plain hateful and ugly!

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 4:30 PM

Mona, At your option, either search for Chrissy's initial post, or "porn", and you'll see where the day went. I've not seen a more exciting tennis match than pATRICK vs. Emily since Borg vs. Connors.

but, on topic, I fully agree with you. I love my car when my people are in it. There's nothing I enjoy more than a good road-trip. But my commute? I just want to get in the front-door of my house and wrap my arms around its occupants as soon as possible. No transition. Don't need it. They are what my life's about.

Posted by: Megan's Neighbor | March 1, 2007 4:30 PM

Leslie/Brian/Wash Post... This is clearly not the purpose of this blog, to be hijacked by a bunch of people to talk about whatever they would like. I try to check in on this blog regularly to glean some advice from veteran parents and feel connected to new parents like myself. What you've got here now, is an out of control subculture talking about whatever it is they chose. It's really juevenile and saddening.

Posted by: Not what I came for... | March 1, 2007 04:27 PM


I think these posts are ridiculous and the little subculture is funny beyond belief. I am in hysterics right now- i've only laughed harder at chris rock's stand up: "bigger and blacker"

that's for brightening my day! hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahhaha

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 4:32 PM

Remember what Billie Jean King did to Bobby Riggs?

Posted by: To Megan's Neighbor | March 1, 2007 4:33 PM

I didn't claim consistency, and would everyone who goes to see a Vegas show thereby desire that their daughter take up a Vegas showgirl livelihood, becasue they supported the show by buygint tickets?

The public, the private, and absolute consistency are the ideal. How many of us live up to it?

So lighten up a little, oh judgemental ones.

Because in the end, you'll find that a large number of us guys who will admit it still find the idea of girls together as pretty fun...BTW, did our porn lady do any of that? She mentioned her husband liked the idea, but she didn't say whether it happened or not. Did women of that industry find girl on girl a necessity, but boring? Or not? :~)

Anon for now: Ah, hmmm. Lots of rather personal info there. Not sure everyone was ready for it...Leslie might indeed have a heart attack after reading that.

Posted by: Texas Dad of 2 | March 1, 2007 4:34 PM

I surely wouldn't call it "just a f**k," by my time on the granite sure is fun.

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 4:34 PM

"Porn or Minivans, now that's a hell of a choice. Both bad.

Posted by: pATRICK | March 1, 2007 04:06 PM

at least porn doesn't represent that death of a young man's dream."

Porn represents the death of a young woman's dream.

Posted by: Mona | March 1, 2007 4:34 PM

"Leslie/Brian/Wash Post... This is clearly not the purpose of this blog, to be hijacked by a bunch of people to talk about whatever they would like. I try to check in on this blog regularly to glean some advice from veteran parents and feel connected to new parents like myself. What you've got here now, is an out of control subculture talking about whatever it is they chose. It's really juevenile and
saddening."

This is a sign of a weak intellect. Reminds me of a girl in high school who said to the teacher during a history debate. "Can't we just go back to reading out of the book and taking the quiz at the end of the chapter?"

Posted by: pATRICK | March 1, 2007 4:35 PM

Am i the only one who enjoys porn?
I have a thing for girl on girl (and i'm not kidding here) in porn but would never do it in real life. SOmething about it being taboo i guess since I also have a thing for being taken advantage of- like the other person wants me so much that they can't control it, even if it's inapporpriate (like i'm the student, they're the teacher or again, a girl going down on me, but i wouldn't reciprocate)

Posted by: anon for this post | March 1, 2007 04:10 PM

Gosh, i agree with the poster who thinks this blog is the funnest thing ever. this is just hilarious.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 4:36 PM

Trixie - I don't consider a tape that you make with your husband, for consumption by the two of you, "P0rn".

One of the textbook defs of p0rn is rooted in obscenity, and I don't consider your scenario an obscene one FWIW.

Posted by: Proud Papa | March 1, 2007 4:37 PM

WorkingMom X


It was really my brothers and not me who hotwired those cars.

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 4:38 PM

"Remember what Billie Jean King did to Bobby Riggs?"

Are you saying EMILY is a lesbian? ;)

Posted by: pATRICK | March 1, 2007 4:38 PM

Remember what Billie Jean King did to Bobby Riggs?

Megan's Neighbor - You are just too kind. But man, did you have to compare me to Billie Jean King? I get it. But I like to think I am more like... I dunno... Penelope Cruz.

I have to go now, the nurse just came in with my meds and I have group therapy in a few minutes.

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 4:38 PM

"Leslie/Brian/Wash Post... This is clearly not the purpose of this blog, to be hijacked by a bunch of people to talk about whatever they would like. I try to check in on this blog regularly to glean some advice from veteran parents and feel connected to new parents like myself. What you've got here now, is an out of control subculture talking about whatever it is they chose. It's really juevenile and
saddening."

oh, sweet Jesus, the non-contributing gleaner is back to bit*h at the blog again. I wish she was as worried about homelessness and world peace.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 4:39 PM

I think I have deduced who the porn star is.

Her name is _______________ aka __ ______

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 4:42 PM

That's right, Patrick. My husband is really a transgendered woman who cross dresses as a man. We aren't sure if we are a straight couple or a lesbian couple. And I am really a transgendered man who cross dresses as a woman. And my name is really Big Al.

Does that make me a lesbian?

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 4:43 PM

Well, Fred- who is she?

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 4:43 PM

Scarry:

True story:

Two engineers where my husband works had an affair. They were both married and had kids. They are both now divorced from the result of their affairs and the resulting pregnancy.

The guy is now running around on the woman and everyone at work knows it? So, should my husband tell her, the cheater she cheated with is now cheating? I think not and I told him to stay out of it.

Sometimes it appropriate to tell people about cheating and other times it is not.

_________________

My company hired as a subcontractor the husband ('J') of my wife's best friend. He was assigned to work with a female engineer ('S') who worked for me; I considered both her and her husband to be friends.

Six weeks later it was obvious J and S were involved. They were both married (to others) and had kids. I told my wife; we decided not to say anything. My wife ran into her friend at the mall a few months later, having not seen her. Seems 'J' came home one day and packed up; he moved in with 'S'. J's wife is now an ex-friend of my wife; when she found out we knew/suspectd and didn't tell her, she held it against us. On the other hand, the ex-husband of S doesn't blame us; he thinks it's happened several times and figures it's for the best.

You just never know; you have to use your judgement and hope.

Posted by: Army Brat | March 1, 2007 4:44 PM

EMILY, I tried, it is obvious you will never get it. I really, really promise to stop.

Posted by: pATRICK | March 1, 2007 4:45 PM

i have to admit this is reaching new lows on off-topic

So I'll try to launch another off-topic just to see if it will fly ACC b-ball (or how to watch it all and still see your family):

UVA vs. Virginia Tech tonight
UNC vs. Georgia Tech tonight
NC State vs Maryland Saturday
Duke vs. UNC this Sunday

get your picks in now...I really don't know how I'm going to manage all this.

Posted by: dotted | March 1, 2007 4:45 PM

Are you saying EMILY is a lesbian? ;)

Posted by: pATRICK | March 1, 2007 04:38 PM


You only wish.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 4:46 PM

Re: minivans:

all the Dodge/Chrysler products are crap. I spent thousands trying to keep the Grand Caravan running, long after I should have given up.

The Toyota Sienna, which is now 4 years old with 75,000 miles, is a magnificent vehicle! Daimler wants to sell Chrysler? To who?

(And I'm a guy who still drives a 1991 Ford Escort with 254,000 miles on it, so I know how to keep a car going. When I say the Caravan was so bad that I gave up on it, that's saying a lot!)

Posted by: Army Brat | March 1, 2007 4:46 PM

Please don't stop, Patrick. You are really too much fun.

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 4:46 PM

Megan's Neighbor - You are just too kind. But man, did you have to compare me to Billie Jean King? I get it. But I like to think I am more like... I dunno... Penelope Cruz.

No - NO - Emily, that comment wasn't mine. I compared it to Connors/Borg, a series of matches of two players in their prime. The Billie Jean King/Bobby Riggs game was a stunt, and while I was quite glad at the outcome, it wouldn't be sporting to designate anyone on the blog (well, maybe yesterday's flamer) Bobby Riggs.
Penelope Cruz it is.

Posted by: Megan's Neighbor | March 1, 2007 4:47 PM

how about some girl on girl with penelope cruz and salma hayek???? now that's hot

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 4:48 PM

GO GATech!!!

Posted by: Ramblin' Wreck | March 1, 2007 4:48 PM

Well, Fred- who is she?

Posted by: | March 1, 2007 04:43 PM

I probably will not tell and (no offence intended) I would not tell to to an anon commenter.

And as I say, I think, I do not know for sure.

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 4:48 PM

Thank you. That's much better than Big Al.

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 4:49 PM

Well, Fred- who is she?

Posted by: | March 1, 2007 04:43 PM

I probably will not tell and (no offence intended) I would not tell to to an anon commenter.

And as I say, I think, I do not know for sure.

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 04:48 PM


Fred, that was me- "porn lady" or "Porn queen"- whatever label you'd like to use. I'm curious to see if you've figured it out. I do doubt it though.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 4:51 PM

UVA vs. Virginia Tech tonight
UNC vs. Georgia Tech tonight
NC State vs Maryland Saturday
Duke vs. UNC this Sunday

I beg of you, dotted, remember your good friend, Megan's Neighbor, this evening and I'll support those boys in Carolina blue on your behalf.

Maryland

We'll see which team of UNC and which team of Duke shows up and enjoy every minute of it. Based on the inconsistency and the losses of each team to teams they shoulda beat lately, I haven't a clue. What do you think's the most likely outcome?

Posted by: Megan's Neighbor | March 1, 2007 4:51 PM

That reminds me. Ugly Betty is on tonite. Yipee.

And to be absolutely honest, I am much closer to America Ferrera than Penelope or Salma. But a girl can have her delusions, no?

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 4:52 PM

Army Brat, I do disagree on your evaluation of Dodge/Plymouth vans. I have now owned 4 and the current one just turned over 170,000.

I do know that the transmission was a major weakness for certain models years. The one that was totaled had its tranny go at 115,000. It cost $1200 to rebuild. When the tranny went out in my Japanese car, it costs $2500. I did not experience tranny problems or other major problems in the other 3.

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 4:55 PM

As for college hoops, my beloved Longhorns (15) bet the Aggies (6) last night, and will meet Kansas (3) in this weekend. If they beat Kansaa as well, they will share the lead of the Big 12 conference.

The Longhorns start four freshman and one sophomore. If anyone hasn't had the pleasure of watching Kevin Durant play, BTW, wait until you see this kid in action.

Posted by: Texas Dad of 2 | March 1, 2007 4:55 PM

Megan's neighbor (also my neighbor):

Am I going for UVA then? Excuse my premature senility.

for the other games:
UNC
Maryland
UNC

Roy has them pretty fired up these days. They're talking about playing as a team more. Let's see if they walk the talk.

Posted by: dotted | March 1, 2007 4:57 PM

THE Dodge: front wheel fell off,transmission replaced twice, slide door not opening, electrical system shot, window won't roll down. This is just what she told me. She won't tell me anymore because my answer always is buy a honda or toyota.

Posted by: pATRICK | March 1, 2007 4:59 PM


"Fred, that was me- "porn lady" or "Porn queen"- whatever label you'd like to use. I'm curious to see if you've figured it out. I do doubt it though."

Yea, I thought that I figured it out a few minutes ago but am not so sure now. In any case, I do not think that I would embarrass whoever the porn star is by naming her.

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 4:59 PM

Fred,
Come on. You are concerned about embarrassing someone on this blog? Please. We're all friends here.

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 5:01 PM

Chrissy, I could be wrong about this, but it sounds like your husband only came clean when you made it clear that you intended to seek medical assistance for your difficulty conceiving. If that's true, then he only confessed to you when it was inevitable that he was going to be outed anyway. If, as you say, he regrets lying to you about it but not actually doing it, then he actually doesn't regret either; he only regrets being trapped in his lie.

And frankly, the ecoptic pregnancy nonsense is bullsh*t, regardless of whether it's true or not. For him to sterilize himself *without telling you*, for your so-called protection, indicates that he doesn't even come close to seeing you as his equal. You take unilateral measures to protect your children; you don't take them to protect your spouse. (And then lie about it!)

I'm not going to weigh in on the whole "It was rape"/"No it wasn't" thing because I think it detracts from the real issue: you are married to someone who sees nothing wrong with taking unilateral action that directly affects you; who lies about it easily and freely for seven years; who only confesses when he has absolutely other choice. He's already compromised his fertility. What else would he do to "protect" you?

Posted by: Lizzie | March 1, 2007 5:01 PM

Fred

The tranny went out on the Grand Caravan at 60K. (My neighbor's went at 55K. It was a 96; those were horrible vehicles.) Also, the head gasket, the valve cover gasket (three times), and a bunch of other parts that I'm trying desperately to forget. Not to mention the road noise, body rust, poor fit, etc.

I'll take the 75 Pinto or 91 Escort over that van any day.

Posted by: Army Brat | March 1, 2007 5:02 PM

dotted: YES, you're going for Virginia.

pATRICK, why would anyone replace a transmission twice in the same vehicle? I must see signs from God in the smallest of places but that one would have been in italics and bold for me.

Posted by: Megan's Neighbor | March 1, 2007 5:05 PM

Emily,

I had to recall for a minute about this, here is my post from the original blog.

"Fred- I'm sorry, I will not divulge any more info."

OK, I can respect that. Very titillating though!

Posted by: Fred | February 9, 2007 04:46 PM

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 5:06 PM

Fred,
You are an honorable man. I respect that.

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 5:07 PM

Fred has a problem with Trannies. There's a rumor for you.

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 5:09 PM

Army Brat,

I had a 86, 92 and 97, all new. The 97 had the bad tranny (replaced at 115,000.)

The one I have now is a 96. I am the third owner so I do not know the repair history.

My neighbor had a new Honda Accord, its tranny went out at 50,000 or so. He then bought another new one!

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 5:09 PM

"dotted: YES, you're going for Virginia.

pATRICK, why would anyone replace a transmission twice in the same vehicle? I must see signs from God in the smallest of places but that one would have been in italics and bold for me."

one word-WARRANTY


Posted by: pATRICK | March 1, 2007 5:12 PM

pATRICK, why would anyone replace a transmission twice in the same vehicle? I must see signs from God in the smallest of places but that one would have been in italics and bold for me.

Sadly my father did twice in his 1991 Dodge Caravan...

Posted by: Columbia, MD | March 1, 2007 5:12 PM

Fred,
I just noticed your son is having some major medical problems today. I hope everything comes out okay. My prayers are with you and yours.

Posted by: dotted | March 1, 2007 5:13 PM

pATRICK, yeah, well, even if it's under warranty and someone else is paying for it, I wouldn't have much confidence in the vehicle. Plus, the hassle of dropping and picking my car up from the dealer is unbearable. Reliability is right up there with the size of the engine for me.

Posted by: Megan's Neighbor | March 1, 2007 5:15 PM

"Fred has a problem with Trannies. There's a rumor for you."

ROFL, most mechanics use the word "tranny" as a shorthand for transmission. I purposefully wrote tranny to see who would catch it!

However, I do know where you can find trannies and not the automotive kind!

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 5:15 PM

Thanks to all the people who weighed in on the decidedly less sexy minivan topic! I appreciate the anecdotes!

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 5:19 PM

Well, tv up and running. Not as great as I anticipated. Guess I will have to shell out the bucks and get the HD receiver from direct tv. At least the sound is good.

Posted by: KLB SS MD | March 1, 2007 5:23 PM

wow - Fred - I missed the info on your son earlier, and am so sorry. Until I read dotted's comment, I'd blown right past it. I hope the news turns better. You and Fredia have much on your minds.

Posted by: Megan's Neighbor | March 1, 2007 5:23 PM

Megan's Neighbor

Yea, like those Thunderbirds!

Emily,

Not above hearing about it if you have a confession to make!

Dotted,

Just an outbreak of his chronic condition. The issues with this particular condition is that it changes as a kid is going thru puberty. So it can be hard to control sometimes. I have the same condition but I am 100% controlled.

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 5:25 PM

Fred: re: the non-automotive type of trannies: my sister took my wife down Bourbon Street on Mardi Gras day. Showed her part of the 'beauty contest'. Quite, umm, eye-opening for my wife.

Posted by: Army Brat | March 1, 2007 5:26 PM

"I do know that the transmission was a major weakness for certain models years. The one that was totaled had its tranny go at 115,000"

I have 110,000 miles on my 94 or 95 (CRS) Grand Caravan. I guess I don't have much longer :)

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 5:27 PM

KLB,

You will not BELIEVE how much better HD is. It is amazing and worth it. Esp,if you watch sports!

Megan's Neighbor,

The real problem is that he has missed 5 days of school in the past 3 wks. We are taking him to his specialist tomorrow.

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 5:28 PM

Army Brat - the 95-99 dodge caravans and gr caravans had horrible transmissions - Chrysler knew it too. My 95 blew out at 58K. Yet - I bought another Gr Caravan. Why you ask - because I used to work for Chrysler Financial and still had plenty of dealer connections. They gave me the employee price and there was 0% financing. My 2000 is holding it's own though.

Knockin on wood right now.

Posted by: cmac | March 1, 2007 5:28 PM

Fred,
I have confessed too many things already. I would be horrified if anyone found out who I really am. Really, much of what I say about myself is true. Especially the part of Penelope. This is what keeps me from writing a guest blog. I don't think I could every face any of you out there in real life. And I couldn't possibly get myself to tell Leslie who I am. I would die of shame.

Signed,
Big Al.

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 5:29 PM

Fred,
The tv itself is awesome altho it will take some getting used to having the wider screen. I will for sure have to get the HD box as I love baseball. I can't get the remote programmed to the satellite box tho - argh!

Posted by: KLB SS MD | March 1, 2007 5:30 PM

Emily, Funny you should say that. I had the same thought until Leslie posted foamgnome's column attributed to "foamgnome". She seems willing to go along with the idea that, to the extent there is disclosure, it only occurs because it's anonymous.

Posted by: Megan's Neighbor | March 1, 2007 5:32 PM


Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 5:33 PM

"Fred: re: the non-automotive type of trannies: my sister took my wife down Bourbon Street on Mardi Gras day. Showed her part of the 'beauty contest'. Quite, umm, eye-opening for my wife."

The other location that I know of is Hotel Street in Honolulu.

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 5:35 PM

Fred, Fred, FRED???

Posted by: Anonymous | March 1, 2007 5:36 PM

KLB,

You have to get the HD. Baseball is FABULOUS in HD. Maybe not as fabulous as some trannies but that is another story for another day.

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 5:37 PM

Any tips on getting direct tv to reduce price on hd receiver/DVR?

Posted by: KLB SS MD | March 1, 2007 5:37 PM

pATRICK,

I haven't been with the blog since morning, but in skimming just now I did see your comments to Meesh re having a friend who was a former porn star.

You insisted she wouldn't actually have such a friend.

Well, I don't know about Meesh, but I have some friends/acquaintances (3 or 4) who have been porn actresses. In each case, the woman has gone on to make a good life for herself and to develop long-lasting and supportive friendships with other women.

Why is it so hard for you to believe that women you associate with -- even if just on a blog -- would never have a friendship with an ex-porn star or ex-prostitute?

Posted by: pittypat | March 1, 2007 5:38 PM

Wouldn't it be cool though, if we were actually brave enough to disclose our true identities to each other? Not that I'm the least bit willing... I would love to know you, Megan's Neighbor, and Megan, and Scarry, and Fo4, and Foamgnome, and Dotted, and Lizzie, and Mona, and Laura, and Fred, and Patrick, and some others as well, (well... maybe not Patrick because you would pick on me) because you all seem to be so interesting and cool. I feel like I know some of you already. But yikes. That would take courage which I just don't have. But hypthetically, wouldn't it be cool?

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 5:39 PM

Fred,
We have had an occassional individual come into our hosp searching for a gender alteration.

Posted by: KLB SS MD | March 1, 2007 5:39 PM

Fred, Fred, FRED???

Posted by: | March 1, 2007 05:36 PM


Huh? I am here!

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 5:39 PM

"The Toyota Sienna, which is now 4 years old with 75,000 miles, is a magnificent vehicle!"

We certainly love ours. But have you had the squishy brakes problem?

Turns out there's a website dedicated to Sienna problems, and the squishy brakes one is huge.

Basically, what happens is that, when you're traveling at under 15 mph and apply the brakes, on occasion they just won't be there. Foot goes to the floor; no brakes engage. Or, brakes become squishy and don't engage. Happens a lot when coming to a stop at a red light.

One guy on the website was traveling 5 mph, came to a light, applied the brakes, hit the car in front. $8K in damage to his car, and Toyota won't acknowledge that the problem exists.

And, no, it doesn't have anything to do with not being familiar with anti-lock brakes (a common assumption, especially when it's a woman driving). Turns out this has happened to hundreds of Sienna owners.

But, we still love ours!

I've

Posted by: pittypat | March 1, 2007 5:44 PM

"She won't tell me anymore because my answer always is buy a honda or toyota."

You know pATRICK, lately I find myself agreeing with you more and more often, but this is the kicker. My husband had a dodge when I met him, and everytime something went wrong with it (which was ALL THE TIME), my response was always, "you should dump that thing and get a toyota or a honda." Now we have two toyotas (well, a toyota and a scion, but that's the same thing...)

Posted by: Megan | March 1, 2007 5:47 PM

KLB,

Listen to Fred. Getting a new HDTV and watching regular definition signals only on it is a total waste. It's like getting a color TV, and then turning down the color and watching only B&W.

Please, get yourself the HD receiver. You'll be glad you did...

BTW, what kind did your get? Rear Projection? LCD? Plasma? The engineer in me LIKES electronic toys

Posted by: Texas Dad of 2 | March 1, 2007 5:48 PM

I am so good sometimes I scare myself. I got them down from 300 to 100 with a $10 discount on programming per month for one year!!!!!

Posted by: KLB Silver Spring | March 1, 2007 5:48 PM

" But hypothetically, wouldn't it be cool?

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 05:39 PM "

Hypothetically, yes but I lead such a boring life on a daily basis. The events that I write about come from 31 years of marriage and 55 years of life and 4 children. You get the compressed version.

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 5:50 PM

Texas dad,
I got a 37" Polaroid LCD.

Posted by: KLB SS MD | March 1, 2007 5:50 PM

Texas dad,
I am just like my father - love my gadgets. I just picked up a TomTom navigational system and love it. It is a terrible addiction and my brother has it too. Sister is an aerospace engineer and she doesn't even have a DVD player.

Posted by: KLB SS MD | March 1, 2007 5:51 PM

"Sister is an aerospace engineer"
KLB SSMD, your sister wouldn't happen to be an astronaut from this area, would she?

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 5:53 PM

KLB,

So, I get to come visit you and watch the Cubs win it all?

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 5:54 PM

Fred,
Of course but it will be a long drive.

Posted by: KLB SS MD | March 1, 2007 5:57 PM

and watch the Cubs win it all?


You masochist.

Posted by: To Fred | March 1, 2007 5:57 PM

No but she does work in Dallas.

Posted by: KLB SS MD | March 1, 2007 5:58 PM

You mean a long drive for the Cubs to win anything?

I have been to Annapolis and DC. I had the best crabcakes that I have ever had in the Annapolis harbor area.

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 6:00 PM

Does it handle 1080P signals? If you buyg that one now, it should be good for a really long time. Hopefully if not, you can at least get 720P.

Progressive scan is so much better than interlaced. It is a long boring enigneering story, but if not for stinking SONY we might have ended up with progressive scan only signals in HD, which is what the computer monitor makers wanted during in the Grand Coalition days. Would have made all the tuner cards much cheaper and easier to make.

Also instantly would have solved the 2 foot--10 foot rule. The reason you can sit next to your monitors all day without a headache is that is shows a progressive scan signal. Try sitting that close to a regular interlaced TV program (or even the HD 1080i signal) and see what happens.

Oops. Should have set up geek engineering warning before this message. Sorry.

Return to your regularly scheduled postings...

Posted by: Texas Dad of 2 | March 1, 2007 6:00 PM

Hypothetically, yes but I lead such a boring life on a daily basis. The events that I write about come from 31 years of marriage and 55 years of life and 4 children. You get the compressed version.

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 05:50 PM

You know, Fred, I am old enough to count an uneventful day as a good one, LOL.

Emily, Hypothetically it would be cool, but Yikes! I am right with you on the level of courage necessary. I'll stand right behind KLB and next to dotted and moxiemom, laugh at everyone else's jokes, and otherwise sip my glass of water until it's 5 p.m. somewhere. Then I'll continue sipping a glass of red wine until the party breaks up.

Posted by: Megan's Neighbor | March 1, 2007 6:01 PM

baseball fans (rolls eyes).

Posted by: Megan's Neighbor | March 1, 2007 6:03 PM

Texas dad,
Does this answer your questions?

FLM-373B 37" LCD with ATSC/NTSC Tuner
Resolution: 1366 x 768
Viewing angle: 170 x 170
1080i/720p/480i/480p digital compatibility
181-channel cable-ready NTSC/high definition ATSC tuner
Dual Tuner Picture-in-Picture (1 ATSC, 1 NTSC)
3:2 & 2:2 pull-down with motion compensation
Progressive scan
Built-in speakers (10 watts x 2)
Stereo sound with simulated surround sound
Pre-programmed tone controls (bass, treble, balance, EQ)
Trilingual on-screen display (English, Spanish, French)
Input and channel labeling
Sleep timer
HDMI input
VGA (D-sub) input
2 component inputs (YPbPr/YCbCr)
S-video input
Composite video input
2 TV/CATV coaxial RF inputs (1 digital ATSC, 1 analog NTSC)
5 audio inputs
Audio output (RCA)
Coaxial digital audio output 1 1.800.536.6772

Posted by: KLB SS MD | March 1, 2007 6:04 PM

" and watch the Cubs win it all?
You masochist.
Posted by: To Fred | March 1, 2007 05:57 PM"

What can I say, I was born in Chicago.

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 6:05 PM

Fred,
We won't hold that against you.

Posted by: KLB SS MD | March 1, 2007 6:06 PM

What about the Sox?

Posted by: To Fred | March 1, 2007 6:07 PM

No but she does work in Dallas.

Too bad. For a minute there, I was thinking that this might be one of those cool six degrees of separation moments.

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 6:07 PM

Fred, We can't any of us help where we're born, it's where we choose to live that reveals our hearts. Ick - that sounds way sappy for me. Let's revise that too, at least you were smart enough to move to the South.

Posted by: Megan's Neighbor | March 1, 2007 6:07 PM

"Emily, Hypothetically it would be cool, but Yikes! I am right with you on the level of courage necessary. ...

Posted by: Megan's Neighbor | March 1, 2007 06:01 PM"

Hey, Megan's N.

You do not remember that I am coming to visit you when my AF dau comes back to Charleston in Sept?

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 6:08 PM

Lesson learned - never stop with the first guy who answers the phone. I asked what they were going to offer me to keep me as a customer since Dish network would give me free HD DVR!!!!! Got transferred to someone else who gave me great deal! Worth 30 mins on the phone.

Posted by: KLB SS MD | March 1, 2007 6:12 PM

"What about the Sox?"

Posted by: To Fred | March 1, 2007 06:07 PM

WHAT? the commie league, the league that has the DH and those damned yankees?

I will say tho, one of the happest days in my life was in the New Comisky (sp) The Sox beat the yankees 8-4 on a grand slam by Robin Ventura. Not only did the yankees lose big but it was the first MLB grand salami that I have personally seen.

Posted by: Fred | March 1, 2007 6:12 PM

Fred - meeting you wouldn't take courage, LOL! It's the group intimidation and group disclosure that gives me the creeps. In real life, (at the risk of being labeled "smug" again), I'm considered by my friends and colleagues to be a fairly good judge of character, and I'm very careful to match the level of disclosure to the all-around niceness and discretion/judgment of the recipient. I trust you.

Back to cars, minivans and baseball?

Posted by: Megan's Neighbor | March 1, 2007 6:13 PM

I love the sox (Red not White)! Grew up in CT.

Posted by: KLB SS MD | March 1, 2007 6:15 PM

KLB, You grew up? :>)

Posted by: Megan's Neighbor | March 1, 2007 6:15 PM

Well, sort of. I am drinking a lovely champagne tonite.

Posted by: KLB SS MD | March 1, 2007 6:17 PM

Megan's neighbor,
I would love to meet you sometime. You should join the email list that father of 4 set up.

Posted by: KLB SS MD | March 1, 2007 6:19 PM

KLB, Honestly, this thread explains why I haven't (well there is that ADD procrastination problem, as well - if no one else is needing me to do something, it becomes almost impossible to prioritize anything just for me). I'll get over the utter terror of being outed as a real person. May I be impose and ask you to remind me on which blog he posted it, if you recall?

Posted by: Megan's Neighbor | March 1, 2007 6:22 PM

I can give it to you if you like.

Posted by: KLB SS MD | March 1, 2007 6:23 PM

Thanks, KLB!

Posted by: Megan's Neighbor | March 1, 2007 6:26 PM

Send email to this address with your posting name:

MommyBlogger2007@verizon.net

Posted by: KLB SS MD | March 1, 2007 6:28 PM

off I go to watch UVA and UNC win win win

Posted by: dotted | March 1, 2007 6:33 PM

Nite

Posted by: Emily | March 1, 2007 6:33 PM

Emily, I think it would be cool to meet some regulars on this blog. A lot of you have given me some really great info, tips, advice, etc. Many of you seem real to me already, sort of like mother figures/mentors. I know probably a lot of you are actually younger than me, but if you couldn't tell, I'm really immature. I probably have the mentality of a 17-year-old right now. That's why I feel like many of you have all been there/done that and you give me such a great helping hand. :-)

PS I buy American. Japanese cars are infinitely better, but I won't openly admit that to the BF because we pick on each other about our races (for the record, he's 4th generation, but that doesn't stop us), and I don't want to give him any more ammo! I say one word in Japanese, and he's all "that's right, Japanese is better!" Never mind that he hardly speaks any himself. :-P

Posted by: Mona | March 1, 2007 7:11 PM

Emily, Hypothetically it would be cool, but Yikes! I am right with you on the level of courage necessary. ...

Posted by: Megan's Neighbor | March 1, 2007 06:01 PM"

I think it would be cool, but I'm going to treat you all like the gorgeous guy across the bar. I want to keep him as what I imagine him to be - too many times I've been disappointed as soon as he speaks. This is not a reflection on the potential disappointing qualities of those here, more a reflection on my ability to make people and things into something they are not. That make sense? BTW, I'm a Saab girl. If they made a minivan, I'd snap it right up!

Posted by: moxiemom | March 1, 2007 7:23 PM

Texas dad of 2,

You are correct I hate cheaters and liars because I know how it feels. The guy who works with my husband is a piece of work, but so is the woman who chased him when she knew he was married.

Army Brat,

I accidentally outed them at my super bowl party. She had her kids there and he came afterwards, my husband was busy and forgot to introduce everyone so I thought they were married. When I said is this your husband she said "no, we are getting married and he is the father of the baby."

Later when I ask him if he knew what they were having he "shushed me" and said that it wasn't common knowledge that the baby was his. I felt like saying, ooops my mistake, but then why should I; I didn't cheat and get her knocked up!

Messed up story. Now she is crying to my husband about it. Not a very good idea because I won't put up with any of her nonsense.

Posted by: scarry | March 1, 2007 7:28 PM

moxiemom, I think Saab does make an suv model now. I think it's a 93x variant. I'm an Audi man and waiting on a reasonably priced used Q7 myself. I'll be waiting years.

KLB, nice TV! You get used to watching widescreen. If you get a set-top high def antenna (I use the Winegard Sharpshooter) you will get local network channels in HD and they will "automatically" be widescreen, without the stretching effect you probably see today.

I love gadget talk.

Posted by: Proud Papa | March 2, 2007 8:38 AM

"If you had direct indisputable evidence that someone in a couple you knew equally well were caught cheating, what would you do?"

I personally don't believe that you can be equally friends with two people in a couple. There's (with the exception of gay couples) always a gender line in there, or just a better personality match to one person or the other. I think that only in the case of causal acquaintances can you feel equal loyalty to both parts of a couple. Now assuming that Mary and Dave are a couple and that I do feel equal kinship/history/loyalty to both, and that we're close friends, what I would do (and have done) is remove myself from the situation as best as possible. Tell the cheater that what they're doing is not right and they need to stop, or end their relationship. Then back away quickly, as if I'd never known anything and let nature take its course. (You know, if Mary would have never found out but for my intervention, let her never know etc...).

I'm not comfortable with this plan of action, and it's had long-lasting repressions in my friendship with an unnamed couple, but I just cannot be responsible for being a catalyst for a potentially devastating situation.

Posted by: Cate | March 2, 2007 3:43 PM

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