Amazing, Fred. Captures life.

I think your children will recall your sense of humor.

I hope my children recall all the hugs.

Great column, Fred! I also have been amazed at how one instant or decision can make a huge difference in the rest of your life.

"A selective memory is the road to sanity for long-term parenting."

Wiser words were never spoken.

"I was at an aircraft museum last week and saw the tangible legacy of my father -- an aircraft he had worked on."

But I have to disagree with that statement. Look in the mirror. That is part of the tangible legacy of your father.

Lovely Fred, thanks for sharing your story. One of the best things about life is all the knowledge that I gain each year. Can't wait to be as smart as you!

I also think a selective memory is the road to a happy long-term marriage.

In addition to one instant/one decision changing your life, I also find that some of the best decisions are random ones over which you have no control.

That is one of the best columns ever posted on this blog. Not only full of insight, but showing the whole picture, warts and all. Thanks again.

Lovely, Fred, just lovely. Thank you. Food for thought for the rest of the week.

Fred,
Very nice column. Brings back lots of memories of my dad who died a year and a half ago. Unlike you, I am still waiting for the adult revelation. Once in a while (usually when something goes wrong in the house) I am smacked with the reality that I am responsible. But, when I am able to figure out how to fix it I thank my father - that is his legacy - an independent daughter.

Great column, but I have to disagree with the sleep issue. I have two preteens, ages 9 and 11, and I sleep very deeply. I wake up if one comes into my room. There were years, however, where I was a zombie.

Selective memory is right on--with kids and spouses! I hope my husband and kids only remember our good times!

Wow, what a sweet blog Fred. I am sure your children will remember you as a devoted father and husband. Such nice words this week.

I hope that my children will remember the fun and know that as long as their father and I are alive they are loved completely and unconditionally by at least two people on this earth.

I would love to see a blog from the No. 1 son to get the full story...

When my son was in kindergarten, his class had a Mother's Day Tea. The children had to write something about their mother and read it out loud during the tea. My son said "I love my mother because she helps me when I need help." Hearing that from my then 5 year old son felt really good.

Loved this guest blog. I was particularly struck by the comment that at 52, when his father died, Fred finally became the "adult," the elder. I have been so surprised at how we can be acting the part of grown-ups, holding down jobs, paying the mortgage, raising kids but still not feel like the adult. When I was in college I thought something magical would happen in my late 20s, early 30s and I would truly grow up. What I've found is that it's life's tragedies that force us to really grow up.

Fred, great blog. I especially appreciate the bit about only becoming an adult after the death of your parents. I'm 41, married 10+ yrs, two kids, mortgage, partner in a law firm -- and yet I still know that I can always count on my mom for support when things get tough. The thought of someday filling that role myself, being the family matriarch, the advice-giver instead of the advice-seeker, scares the bejeebers out of me -- even with all the responsibilities that I manage in my daily life, I'm still not ready to be THAT grown up!

Why Fred, you old softie. That was a particularly sweet guest blog.

The adult revelation is the most intriguing aspect of life as a married mom. When I first got married is seemed like my husband and I were "playing house." A couple of my friends have said the same thing. As life progressed, babies born, career changes, death of a parent - we now feel like it is all passing by so quickly. There a fewer carefree days, more worries - but we are no longer just "playing house," we are living life.

I hope when I am 55 I can reflect so clearly on my life, and take my lessons learned as I get there as gracefully (and eloquently!) as you and Frieda. Perhaps the lesson is to start now.

My dad died 3 years ago yesterday. It was actually a relief as he had Alzheimer for the last 1 1/2 years.

The way I have always looked at it is that we brothers received 15 bonus years as he had a heart attack at 65 and was quite lifeless. He just happened to be in a cardiac care unit so he was revived promptly.

Fo2 makes a good point about looking in the mirror

Fred, you made me cry! Luckily I work from home so it's not nearly as embarrasing as it could be. I, too didn't really feel like a grown up (even though I had my own child) until my Father died in 2002.

I love how you mention that you didn't really get to know your Dad until after your Mom died. I think for so many folks in that generation Mom was the ultimate buffer. And while that was good in so many ways I believe it did tend to create a barrier between a lot of Dads and kids.

You have given me a lot to think about today as I wonder what my son will remember about me!

Ok, so I know the comma rules, but my tears blinded me during proofing!

Fred, you da man!

I especially like the words:
"I often wonder how one event or even one moment in a person's life can change everything."

I once asked my grandparents how they fell in love:
Saturday nights were bridge nights at the church hall. George and Dorothy were partners, and in a single instance of utter thoughtlessness, poor Dorothy trumped George's Ace. It was the worst move a bridge player can possibly make. The players at the table were agast! The bone-headed move quickly circulated around the church hall and left Dorothy so embarrassed that she thought no would would ever select her as a partner ever again.

And George forgave Dorothy. What a nice man!

So here I am today, possibly due to how a deck of cards got shuffled back in the 1930's.

back when I was a teenager learning to drive, I once made the decision to punch the accelerator when the light turned yellow, instead of hitting the brake to stop at the intersection. Not that anything significant became of it, but in some small, tiny intsy binsy way, my life would become forever different.

Nothing to add that others have not. Very well done and insightful.

My life was forever changed a) when I decided to stay for a PhD and met my now husband the next week and b) when rather newly married, I thought to myself, "well we're married, this won't count", with #1 duly arriving the following fall.

My father is still alive, but my mom died in a car crash back when I was 16. That day was the first (and only) time I ever saw him cry, and realized he was as human as anyone else. The day after she died, when everyone started showing up, he had to put his adult face back on and remain stoic for all four of us kids, even though my two older siblings were already out on their own.

Years later, when I was in college, I realized the relationship between he and I had changed. I did poorly one semester and barely managed to stay in college. When I showed him the grades, he didn't get upset, only looked at me and asked "did you do your best?". I had to admit that no, I hadn't. "Well, go back and do your best the next time," he said.

That was it. No yelling, no lecture, only a conversation between two adults. I realized at that time he saw me as an adult capable of making my own decisions and expected to accept the consequences of them as well.

Years later, after I'd graduated and married, with a career of my own, he called me to ask my advice for some work he was doing on his farm. While I'm sure there were times in the past where he asked me what I'd do on a subject, that was the first time I recalled him going out of his way to ask me about something he was working on.

He had never been a real emotionally available father. He had us working on the farm with him from an early age, but he wasn't a real sensitive guy when it came to expressing his feelings with us while we were growing up. Seeing him now treating all of us as adults took some getting used to, but it's kind of nice now.

Thanks Fred. That was awesome! Very heartfelt and eye-opening.
...breastfeeding consultant and practicing Luddite. LMAO!!! You just made my day. LOL

Great blog, Fred. Isn't it amazing that most of us go through our lives daily and don't ever look back at how far we've come and what fascinating people we are. Everyone has a story.

If you look around my house, you will find stray sheet of paper with columns of addition and multiplication on them. Frieda will not even use a calculator half the time!

Fred,
But does Frieda use a typewriter, word processor or the ol' pen and paper?

If you want to write us:

fred_and_frieda@hotmail.com

Fred wrote (and many have already cited!): "I often wonder how one event or even one moment in a person's life can change everything."

So true. Of course, we have "moments" all the time in life. Perhaps the real question is, how do we recognize which moments will be the ones that make a significant difference? Or do you think some just slip past us, unrecognized at the time but perhaps regretted soon or long after?

Thanks for a great job on the guest column, Fred (& of course Frieda!).

That was lovely, Fred.

Selective amnesia AND selective deafness are two good skills for maintaining personal relationships. Used judiciously, of course.

Dotted,

Are you kidding? Pen and paper. I think that she would use a quill and ink if available. She does understand that technology exists but has a husband and son to deal with it!

Well, just as long as Frieda doesn't use a chisel on stone ;-)

...or an abacus

Catlady, you stole my line!

The mind boggles with the thought of Frieda doing the Flintstones in the booby van.

I know people who still use an abacus. I had a BF once whose cousin came to live with them from Taiwan. The kid was a math genius, and you should have seen his fingers fly over that thing!

Great guest blog, Fred. It gave me a lot to think about, and I'm not even a parent!

My mom always said she never felt like a grown-up until she had children.

I have children, and some days I still have moments when I don't feel I'm in full adulthood. I imagine becoming the elder woman will be a profound change (I hope that's not for a LONG time though).

OT--thank you, atlmom, for taking the time late yesterday to share your thoughts on going back to work. I did go back PT for awhile, and had found a pretty good balance. I had to leave that position because of relocation and likely will begin researching opportunities here in the fall.

Dotted wrote: "Catlady, you stole my line!"

Or maybe great minds think alike :-)

WOW! That was an awesome. Fred, you write so beautifully.

The hardest thing I learned in life was that my parents are human with flaws, but it was also the best thing. It showed me that I can love them as they are rather than the superhumans I thought they were.

When my daughter was born I realized that EVERYTHING my mom did (even the ones that drove me crazy) had a purpose. Of course, when I told her this, she chirped, " I told you so!" Ugh.

To look at my child and see generations of my family, and my husband's, in her is just mind boggling to me. I hope that I can show her that I am human with flaws but that I love her unconditionally ad will always be there for her.

Very nice and thoughtful article. I appreciate the honesty in admitting that life has it's ups and downs. I'm only 33, but have had my share of downs lately and it's comforting to know that others do too, but maintain a positive outlook on life.

I'm always bothered when I read articles where the author states, "I couldn't be happier, or everything in my life is perfect". It usually makes me wonder why I don't always feel that way, so again, I appreciate the honesty about the insights you've gained during your life.

As far as a legacy, I only want my son to know that he was loved deeply by his father and that I will always be there for him. Sounds like you've already done that with your family.

That coffee hasn't taken effect yet. Fred, keep writing, both in the blog and outside it. You have such a talent for describing the big picture.

Do you keep a journal? Your children would be very lucky to read your insights someday. My brother let me read his travel journals from when he was in his twenties. It was a wonderful gift, and I came to know him in a different light.

Catlady asks "Perhaps the real question is, how do we recognize which moments will be the ones that make a significant difference? Or do you think some just slip past us, unrecognized at the time but perhaps regretted soon or long after?"

I think that most of the time we don't recognize those moments until they have passed. Hopefully we can learn from them and appreciate them for what they are since we can't go back and change them.

Fred,
Very touching guest blog! It is a great real-life example of focusing on what really matters in life. I hope that I can mature so gracefully through the death of my mother. My father died suddenly when I was 8, and I've lived in fearful preparation for my mother's death ever since. You remind me to live in joyful gratitude instead.

There is so much of life we cannot control, and so much happiness just waiting to be noticed.

Thanks, Fred!

WorkingMomX, "Everyone has a story."

Yeah, and my oldest daughter tells people the reason she was born is because her parents got drunk at the company Christmas party, and well, um, there is some truth to that story.

I wonder how many parents remember what they did to conceive their own children?

Did you read this article in today's Washington Post?

"Fathers Are No Longer Glued to Their Recliners. Child-Care, Housework Hours Increase"

To KLB SS MD:

I think sometimes the window of opportunity on the life "moments" is longer than merely instantaneous -- that we have at least a little time to reflect before taking chances, in order to (try to) minimize any possible damage.

Catlady,
I think that making a conscious decision to minimize damage from our actions is part of what defines us as responsible adults (say it isn't so).

I agree there's no way you can know a decision you make is actually a turning point in your life until you can look back on it later on.

Case in point: I met my wife at college on a whim. My dormitory roommate wanted to go to an introductory meeting for a campus club, and I decided on the spur of the moment to go with him. At the meeting we met some women who were there for the same reason, and realized we had a lot in common and ended up becoming good friends with them.

One of them eventually ended up being my wife of 23 years now. Had I decided not to go, I may have never met her (although maybe not; the university is rather small) and my life would have been definitely different today!

Very nice blog. I am glad to know that it isn't terribly odd that most days I still don't feel like an adult....even though I'm married with three kids of my own.

John L said what I was trying to say. Not that I don't agree with catlady but I think the two are separate.

Fred,
Your blog was beautiful. It just felt so real and true. I think that is one of the greatest parts of growing older. You become so very wise. Thank you.

"Yeah, and my oldest daughter tells people the reason she was born is because her parents got drunk at the company Christmas party, and well, um, there is some truth to that story."

Uhhhh, two of our kids were born in Sept. I was born in late August

Fred, New Year's Eve parties?

Thanks Fred,

My pop passed away when I was in my 20's, and truly was an inflection point in my life.

The milestones of life, marked by some as sacraments, birth, marriage and death have been periods of heigtened awareness and significance for me. Add baptism, confirmation and confession if you want...

Words, choices and actions at these moments carry significant weight IMHO due to the high level of passion as well as acute focus on priorities.

(WARNING) personal vent follows:

re: Family, honor, truth, priorities.

Why do RSVP's to wedding invitations unanswered, or christening invitations unanswered, even with the aid of an enclosed self-addressed stamped envelope, grate upon me so?

... or imagine an eldest son calling his dad a coward at father's funeral service? ... an indellible brand of dishonor and/or self-centered rudeness?

IMHO, courage never will be found in the child who would stoop so low to disgrace a parent in the grave.

Unforgivable?

or would the perpetrator need to repent to be forgiven in these cases?

Life is a series of choices with consequences, sounds like you got the important ones right Fred. Well written.

I met my wife 30 years ago because of Bruce Springsteen and Chuck Barris.

I left a campus pub after listening to a bad Springsteen cover band. I came back to my dorm early, and this interesting fgirl was visiting with a group of friends. We started talking about our favorites on the Gong show, and now, here we are.

LOL, Father of 4. My grandparents gave me an antique bed about 10 years ago and while we were loading it into the truck, my grandfather said "You know, your mother was conceived in that bed." Oversharing!

Yeah, and my oldest daughter tells people the reason she was born is because her parents got drunk at the company Christmas party, and well, um, there is some truth to that story.

Eek! My birthday's Sep. 25!!!

"... or imagine an eldest son calling his dad a coward at father's funeral service? ... an indellible brand of dishonor and/or self-centered rudeness?
IMHO, courage never will be found in the child who would stoop so low to disgrace a parent in the grave.
Unforgivable?"

No, Fo3, I don't think it's unforgivable. People are complicated, and so are relationships. I agree that the rites of passage, especially weddings and funerals, bring about the best and worst in people. They are highly charged emotional times. A grieving son said what he felt at a funeral. Perhaps it was not appropriate. It might have embarrassed others and made them feel uncomfortable. It might have enraged others. But maybe it had to be said. Maybe it was a step that that person had to take towards healing. And maybe, just maybe, the deceased father, wherever he was, understood and forgave it.

My son was conceived on my living room couch, in celebration of my visiting MIL's departure for a two week long visit.

"... or imagine an eldest son calling his dad a coward at father's funeral service? "

Anonymous this time:

Father who was aware that an uncle was molesting his least favourite daughter, and did nothing to stop it. He qualified for that treatment. Besides, 3 other children were molested by same uncle, later.

(Not your dad, obviously, but just an example of why somebody may feel compelled to lance the boil. We do not know what goes on in families nearly as well as we think we do.)

I have always been interested in some seemingly small event that changes a person's life. I tend to think that most of these are realized in retrospect.

The conversation that I had with the cameraman lasted about 3 minutes. But, 7 months later, when I was in Nam in an air conditioned building rather than in the very hot sun pulling out a starter, made me glad of the conversation.

I also met Frieda on a whim. Three of us guys went down to N.O. for my brother's 21st birthday. We met up with 2 girls, one a HS classmate of mine and my brother's and the other was Frieda. 3 to 2 and I was the odd man out. I did not think too much about this until about 2 week later when I called the classmate to ask her for a date. She said that she was busy but knew of someone who wanted to go out with me. 31 yrs later, I am still with Frieda.

Although, I love the name Zelda so much I think I may rename her!

Although, I love the name Zelda so much I think I may rename her!

Or you could call her Ginger.

Heh. My sister's birthday is
mid-September also. Mine and my younger brother's birthdays are in late October and early November; apparently the winters before were cold in late January...

I think if I'd known one of my parents had been conceived in a bed I was getting from a relative, it would end up being sold. Too much of the 'ewww' factor in knowing that...

Biographical note

Frieda's mother had died before we were married. She died of cancer.

My father was the last living grandparent.

How about calling her Wilma? :-)

It isn't the same mattress is it? Just the same bedframe. I still have my grandparent's bedframe in my guest room. They were married almost 60 years and only had a double bed.

"...Or you could call her Ginger"

Ginger, I don't get this one?

Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers?

"...Or you could call her Ginger"

Ginger, I don't get this one?

Ginger, I don't get this one?

It's a reference to Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers...

Nice blog Fred... I think your children will recall you fondly.

"I was at an aircraft museum last week and saw the tangible legacy of my father -- an aircraft he had worked on. How will my children recall me? How will yours?"

I'll have to think about that. Meanwhile, my cousin Norman's experience tells me that it works both ways. A number of years ago, I was in Philadelphia on business, and my colleague and I had a little spare time, so we visited the plant on Ninth Street where Norman worked as an HVAC engineer. From his office, Norman took us to the ground floor, where construction was done. He showed us a giant control panel that the firm was building for a chemical company, and he said, "Larry designed this." Larry is Norman's son -- also an engineer. You could see how proud Norman was that his son was following in his footsteps.

These days, Norman, who was born in 1919, is down to working only three days a week. He works in his son's engineering firm.

I sometimes wonder what would have happened if I had tried to follow in my father's footsteps. I remember him as a fighter for the "little guy," a sole practitioner who helped small-time restaurant and bar owners battle the maze of bureaucracy. I remember him as incorruptible: Once, the local Democratic Party offered him a judgeship if he would give a $500 bribe. Of course, he turned them down.

I suppose I could look on my fourteen years as an Equal Employment Opportunity Counselor as my way of doing what my father did. But I never quit my scientist "day job" to practice law. Maybe our oldest son, the Law Student, who was born nineteen years after my father died, will follow his grandfather (actually, both his grandfathers!) into the solo practice of law. I have told him all about what my father did. I have shown him letters that my father wrote to bureaucrats, demanding fair treatment for his clients. The address at the top of the letterhead is in New York City, but the name that precedes "Attorney at Law" is our son's name as well as my father's, down to the middle initial. If our sons -- all of them -- can take up their grandfathers' legacies and be fighters for justice and fairness for the little guy, we will be happy.

How will my children remember me? Tough question. There is little doubt that I have formed my own parenting strategy in part based upon my memories of my own father. I tried to take the good and do that and counter the bad with some other set of actions.

I also (greedily) have used my father's regrets and made an effort not to have the same. So, for instance, I have made a point of taking each child on a trip at age 14, just them and me. Also, I attend every event, no matter what, business be damned.

Some of the other things I have hoped to impart have been fairly prosaic - a love of good food, music and conversation, politeness, general good nature, reading, games, sports, gardening/nature. There is no way to know yet whether I have been successful.

Some, I have failed miserably, such as a love of language and diversity of culture. Of course, I blame external influences (TV, IM, whatever) and not my lack of skill at parenting. My kids, to their credit, see the commonality of people. In so doing and in spite of the efforts of others to "celebrate" various cultures, they diminish the wonder of our differences in favor of sameness.

As I think about it now, my father had a presence and a smell. His face was rough from the electric shaver and he had an air of experience garnered from WW II and the Great Depression that I could never emulate. Perhaps there is also a feel about me that my kids will remember but I can't say. Maybe I need to start using Aqua Velva.

Fred posts an interesting but subtly difficult question. Best wishes to him and his success.

My father was also a "fight for the underdog" person and pretty much all of us follow his footsteps in that manner in one way or another.

Maybe that's why I am a Redskins fan???

Hey Missicat,

I, like my father, am a long suffering Cubs fans. My sainted mother, the smart person that she was, was a SL Cards fan!

Maybe that's why I am a Redskins fan???

Posted by: Missicat | March 20, 2007 10:20 AM

No, that's tilting windmills. Alas!

My father was a Republican. His father was a Republican You couldn't not talk politics with them as they would almost foam at the mouth talking about the "D...ed Democrats". I learned early on not to bring it up or, if it did come up, how to quickly change the subject.

I meant you COULDN'T talk politics with them - fingers got away from me.

I never knew (nor wondered about) whether my parents were Republican or Democrat. As a child those were simply things that I didn't need to know; once I was an adult my mother was already gone and my father had remarried, and it never really came up in conversations.

"I wonder how many parents remember what they did to conceive their own children?"

All my mom told me was that she remembered looking up and seeing geckos mating on the ceiling (they were in the Philippines). How appropriate.

I for one always wondered how anyone could tell exactly when a child was conceived. Can a doctor trace back to the exact date, or is it only a ballpark figure? Because I would imagine that even if they could narrow it down to a week's span, they probably still wouldn't know the exact occasion, assuming people have sex more than once a week.

they probably still wouldn't know the exact occasion, assuming people have sex more than once a week.

Posted by: Mona | March 20, 2007 10:31 AM

Some of us write down when we have sex. Particularly if we are trying to conceive.

John L,
Believe me, after listening to them a couple of times I wished I didn't know either. Our family was "mixed" - many of my father's side were democrats and they would have lively arguments at every holiday.

I think it depends on whether the kid is planned or "inspired." I remember the date and all the details of one kid's conception, since we were not planning for it... her younger sister we were trying for, so I have no idea...

Will my kids remember their parents as the ones who "blew it" - the hypocrites who promoted the advocacy of family and then ended up divorced. Their father quickly remarrying and starting "new" family (what was wrong with the old one?)

Or will they remember their mother who had to work full time to help keep a roof over their head? To give them opportunities she didn't have? Health benefits; college opportunities; travel opportunities; sports opportunities.

Or will they remember that their mom was "controlling" - telling them what they should/shouldn't do.. (isn't that a parents job?)

I hope they remember that as their mother I truly did love them and only wanted the best for them. But I am human; not perfect, and made many mistakes. But their best interests were truly in my heart at all times.

Parenting and life balance is tough.

My mom and dad were very poor with 9 children. Now, as an adult - I do "see" why they did some of the things they did and the difficulties they had to overcome.. and I admire them. But it isn't until you walk a "mile in their shoes" that you truly do appreciate your parents.

I asked my mom how she did it to raise 9 kids (compared to my 2) and her answer is "Well, I got to stay home". But when she was home she worked from before Dawn until after Sunset (we lived on a farm). The gardening and canning; the food preparation (full three cooked meals a day); the laundry (wringer washer on the porch - clothes line dried clothes).

I learned much from my parents and I truly appreciate.

"Some of us write down when we have sex. Particularly if we are trying to conceive."

Oh.

O_O

I think it depends on whether the kid is planned or "inspired."

That's very true. I remember when my son was conceived because it was the one time that month that we did not use birth control. He wasn't so much an accident as an inspiration. I remember hesitating for a moment, and saying, "what if I get pregnant?" My husband said something along the lines of, "well, then we'll have a baby." And we did. Amazing how easy that was, compared to actually trying (which has been like banging my head against a wall). It feels so good to stop.

A very interesting article. I think that the most important part of parenting is giving children self respect and the idea that the can do anything because they are ".....". As a product of the depression and WWII I had a relatively easy life, the present is always more difficult than the past. The future can only be more difficult but somehow people manage to survive. My parenting role model
was a coworker who was a product of the dying Woonsocket, RI mill economy. He refused to wear a blue coat because "that was what they give to poor kids." He also
always carried a card in his pocket that outlined how he would finance the education
of each of his five kids. When he was off track he made adjustments. All of this didn't make too much of an impression on me until one of his daughters told me "I am a Gould, and I can do anything if I want
it badly enough'.

I pushed my own kids on the education front,(two Phds), and tried to show them the world when they were young. I am trying to do the same with my grandchildren

John L. wrote: "I never knew (nor wondered about) whether my parents were Republican or Democrat."

Wow, it was so different in our household when I was growing up! Current events were always a part of mealtime discussions. We faithfully read a daily newspaper and weekly newsmagazine, and listened to/watched the news on radio/TV.

As each election approached, my parents would sit at the kitchen table one evening after dinner to discuss the various candidates and ballot issues, then mark the sample ballots accordingly that they would be taking with them into the voting booth. My father, who went to work early, always went alone went to vote after work. When I was little my mother (who worked PT) took me along with her to our neighborhood polling place during the day, and I'd stand inside the booth with her and watch as she marked her paper ballot with the purple-ink "X" stamp. In other words, my parents taught by example, not just words.

My first cousin has confirmed similar attitudes and practices in my uncle's household, and to this day we both vote religiously. Like me, he believes that those who could vote but don't have no grounds for complaint if they don't like something our government does. It's likely that this family value was influenced by the fact that our mutual grandparents were both immigrants who came to this country as children, and as young adults chose to become naturalized American citizens.

When I first met my future DH, he'd never even registered to vote, let alone voted, despite having been eligible for three years. I told him I could never consider marrying anyone who wasn't a voter -- hey, we all have our dealbreakers, and this was one of mine! He now shares my attitude re the importance of voting, and we always go to vote together.

Why do people choose a bureaucratic employment (contract specialist) over a real stuff (a mechanic, and engineer, a lawyer, a soldier...) and at age 55 they suddenly realize that there is no tangible legacy in it? So they make lame jokes and drink.

they probably still wouldn't know the exact occasion, assuming people have sex more than once a week.

Posted by: Mona | March 20, 2007 10:31 AM

I don't know the exact date, but it was probably while they were on a 1 week vacation. That's close enough for me.

This is both a "life changing moment" and a "how we conceived" story, really.
Mr Bee and I had a birth control failure while we were still pretty young and hadn't been together very long. This was how I found out that while I can conceive, I cannot carry a pregnancy to term without serious medical intervention. I was relieved at the time, because we were NOT ready for kids. Learning that about my body fairly early was a good thing: if I'd waited until I wanted to have kids, it would have been a sad discovery but as it was, I've had time to reimagine my life without kids.
As far as how I'll be remembered, I have some plans....

So they make lame jokes and drink.

Posted by: | March 20, 2007 10:49 AM

Speak for yourself, you anonymous coward.

Why do people choose a bureaucratic employment (contract specialist) over a real stuff (a mechanic, and engineer, a lawyer, a soldier...) and at age 55 they suddenly realize that there is no tangible legacy in it? So they make lame jokes and drink.

I'd say there is no tangible legacy for most of us in our professions. That's why we focus or should focus so much on our relationships with people -- family, friends, etc. For the rest, well, on cold nights you can cuddle up to your cash register.

"I wonder how many parents remember what they did to conceive their own children?"

I suppose they did; the process doesn't change from couple to couple, after all...

If you're actually trying to conceive I suppose you could narrow it down to an actual 4-5 day interval in the month, but that would be about it.

"Why do people choose a bureaucratic employment (contract specialist) over a real stuff (a mechanic, and engineer, a lawyer, a soldier...) and at age 55 they suddenly realize that there is no tangible legacy in it? So they make lame jokes and drink."

LOL, I am in private industry and my job, in its small way, has materially contributed to a 4 billion dollar project. I have been a soldier and a mechanic for pay. My talents lie elsewhere.

Don't drink anymore but I do make lame jokes sometimes.

Why do people choose a bureaucratic employment (contract specialist) over a real stuff (a mechanic, and engineer, a lawyer, a soldier...) and at age 55 they suddenly realize that there is no tangible legacy in it? So they make lame jokes and drink.

Posted by: | March 20, 2007 10:49 AM

bwaHAHAHAHAHAHA! If your legacy relates to your job, and not to how you have touched or changed other people or your community, I am very, very sorry for you.

As if most of us really have the autonomy to "choose" our jobs, by the way.

Mona,

Some of us do have sex frequently enough to have not a clue when, within a 7 - 10 period, our children were conceived. Don't assume that notebooks and perfect memories are the norm.

love your blog, Fred. Hugs to Frieda!

to worker bee, tell us about your plans to be remembered . . .

Who in Hades tracks intercourse? That seems freaky, even if you are trying to conceive. Ick, talk about a notebook you'd want burned if you were hit by a bus.

As a highway engineer, I can drive all over NC, point at a road or a bridge, and say "that was my project". My actions result in both positive and negative impacts, but I am anonymous; my name isn't on any of these projects for the public to see. My father was a mechanical engineer, and the contributions he made in his work are even more anonymous.

Raising a child, however, results in a tangible and visible example of how your efforts as a parent turned out. While at some point they become responsible for their actions, those first two decades are mostly the result of the parents' decisions. That to me is the ultimate legacy to leave behind; what your children are like as they become adults themselves.

I can't imagine tracking coital escapades either, but then again, I'm not trying to conceive. I guess I can understand that, because not everyone is as fertile as they'd like to be, or maybe someone would just really like to know the exact date so they can make a better prediction forty weeks later. To people attempting to conceive, marking days on a calendar might come as naturally as the red star I draw on every fourth Thursday. (I would hope that's the limit of it, though; I really can't imagine keeping a diary!)

Mona,

We know conception dates for both of ours --- in both cases because we were trying to conceive, charting morning temps and using ovulation testers to note fertile times, and had only one opportunity during the fertile period (first kid, due to our travel schedules for work; second kid, due to toddler and houseguest limiting opportunities . . .) For our first, we really shouldn't have been eligible to conceive, and were convinced we had missed our window that cycle, but were very lucky that a long-lived sperm stuck around til needed. I like to remember how the moment of conception occurred when we were each oblivious and alone, thousands of miles apart, but already set in motion with great hopes when we were together. . . and how, still thousands of miles apart, a telltale temperature spike one morning revealed that we'd relinquished our hopes prematurely . . . Talk about lucky and life-changing moments! The kids we get are so wondrous and unique, and yet so utterly random!

Both of ours were conceived the first month trying, so all those years of birth control were a worthwhile expense after all . . . I'd always wondered about that. I regret that not everyone has such luck, you just never know what your fate will be when you tug on that door . . . we're very grateful for ours.

I don't see the point with keeping track of when you had sex, even if you're TTC. As long as you know when the woman's fertile period is during her cycle, and time your sexual efforts to fall within that time, that's about all you can do. My wife, in fact, routinely teases me that I know her fertility cycle better than she does!

I do think that some people have jobs that greatly contribute to the rest of the world, in very tangible ways. Doctors, scientists, nurses, social workers, teachers, people who build things, etc.

But I don't think this is the only way, or perhaps even the best way, to have a lasting legacy. People also contribute through their relationships, through how they interact with others, through how they help and encourage others. For some people, this means raising children. For others, it means being a friend, a husband or wife, a sister or brother. My grandmother came to this country at middle age, after having lost her farm to a socialist revolution in her country. And yet, her tangible legacy is comprised of the combined lives of the people she brought with her, her own family, her extended family, and her servant's family. Thanks to her determination and inspiration to make sure that all these people had better lives, we all live the American dream now. That is the tangible legacy that she left behind, and she was no doctor, lawyer, engineer, or scientist. She was just a very determined woman with a very good heart.

I know what day I conceived. I was tracking days, using the rhythm method of birth control. Oops!

11:03 AM, I am writing a book. I was having a joke with myself in mentioning it though, because really, who ISN'T writing a book? Also my book is a fairly light fantasy and therefore not likely to be a lasting legacy.

KB, beautifully written. Thanks for the insight. Fred spoke in his blog about sometimes not feeling like an adult, and so many of you have experiences I have not and may never have, and I'm feeling very childlike right now. I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, either. Right now I'm grateful for the opposite--hoping that my little purple pack of pills will remain reliable--and it's going to be that way for a very long time.

John L, why time it? Just have sex every day! :-)

Emily,

Your grandmother's legacy also includes both you and your mother as well.

My dad's mom raised her four boys during the Depression, travelling door to door with her husband, a piano salesman. She gave piano lessons as well, and lived to be 103 years old. Imagine how hard that was; to make your living selling pianos in the Depression South while raising four young boys.

I still remember the conversation we had with her when she was 100. My wife, an amateur genealogist, recorded the entire conversation, and she was able to recite her ancestors' names and where they lived without hesitation. A truly remarkable woman.

Who in Hades tracks intercourse? That seems freaky, even if you are trying to conceive. Ick, talk about a notebook you'd want burned if you were hit by a bus.

Posted by: | March 20, 2007 11:04 AM

Those of us who are tired of being told that we "never" have sex, that I "never" intitiate...

"in both cases because we were trying to conceive, charting morning temps and using ovulation testers to note fertile times, and had only one opportunity during the fertile period"

"Both of ours were conceived the first month trying"

I am a little curious as to why you were doing the charting and ovulation testing when you hadn't even experienced any difficulty conceiving. Most people I know who tracked those things only did it after months of trying the old fashioned way with no resulting pregnancy. I was under the impression that fertility monitoring, in some ways, only added to anxiety levels.

As long as we are providing 511 moments, my daughter was conceived after a year of trying with no luck. Thanks to a BBT thermometer and calendar we were able to time it perfectly although we weren't aware of it at the time.

This year as March 13 passed my hubby looked at me and asked, "Do you remember that zesty-session?!" I replied with a big smile, "Why yes, yes I do." Later that day, while cleaning, I found the the marked up calendar from a year ago and put a big smiley face next to the date.

As someone wise once said to me, "It's amazing what one night of fooling around will get you--a life filled with happiness."

Mona,

Well, that would certainly be one way to make sure you don't know precisely when your child is conceived! I fear those days are behind me now, though; the spirit is definitely still willing, but the flesh just can't keep pace as it did 20 years ago...

Mona, I think people remember when they conceived when there was something particularly unique or unusual about it. I know precisely when we conceived our daughter -- we were in the middle of (unsuccessful) fertility treatments when we realized we needed to stop one month mid-cycle because we were going to be at an out-of-town wedding one the appointed day. So while we were there, we just thought, what they hey, let's give it a go -- and 9 mos. later, there appeared our daughter.

My son, I don't remember so much. Of course, that could also be second child syndrome. :-)

John,

Quality beats quantity anyday ;-).

Fred, thank you for the wonderful thoughts - I'm sure your kids will have fond memories of you as they get older.

I still have both of my parents living (I was born when mom was 16, so I'm likely to have them around for decades to come). I didn't feel like an adult, though, until my mom had an episode that landed her in the hospital (with a chance that she wouldn't make it through). Dad has almost died three times (menengitis, back surgery that went wrong and heart attack) but somehow almost losing mom made me really feel like an adult for the first time - dad was so helpless, and I remember him vividly, sitting on the couch in my living room, crying. Never before or since have I felt so responsible for him. Since then I've helped them balance checkbooks, make financial and medical decisions, etc - they are both in excellent health now, all things considered, but a bit bohemian and sometimes need help 'being grownups'.

I hope my stepdaughter has fond memories of me when she's older - since I'm the youngest of her four moms, she's likely to have me around a good long time, too and I hope that we'll still be friends.

Actually, we tried the sex every day and couldn't get pregnant... then we read that you should try every other day if you are trying so that the little spermies have a chance to recuperate a little. Got pregnant that same month.

Mona,

When you faithfully use birth control and have an encounter without protection you are very much aware of the encounter and its possible consequences. Especially if your cycles are regular and you realize that you are mid-cycle at the time of the encounter.

Yep, that's the current advice; give the man a chance to recuperate and recharge, preferably 24-36 hours, which definitely works for me! Of course, they also advise that if the man has the stamina, having sex every single day of the month (whether the woman is in the fertile period or not) isn't all that detrimental either.

Ah, back in the days...

to tokb,

Well, once we decided we wanted to start a family, the flip was switched, we wanted to go! We were also trying to time the baby to fit our academic schedules, so (s)he would come after spring semester ended, giving us our very flexible summer for the first months with baby. So we charted a little before trying to conceive, to see which cycle would put us in our target range for a baby due date.

Also, for us, we did the monitoring and active trying for such a short time, the novelty and excitement never wore off. There was no anxiety, just a sense that we were opening the door to magic, setting out on a totally unpredictable and life-changing journey together, come what may.

We're used to actively trying to implement our life plans . . . and doing the charting felt like actively taking steps to become parents, together.

My first did come 2 weeks early, though --- which was a huge shock because my mother's babies came 2+ weeks late, and I'd expected to go late. (up to 3 weeks early is of course perfectly normal though) So I went into labor on the last day of classes, stopped on the way to the hospital to drop handouts/materials for a fellow prof to sub for me . . . my students still had final oral presentations due for 1/3 of their grade, on projects I'd been advising them on for some weeks . . . arranged for a prof to cover that, too, and videotape it --- so I watched them and did my final grading at home with a 1 week old . . . I had at least planned for the possibility of an early arrival, and was ready for a handoff of teaching responsibilities. DH hadn't, and had to leave the hospital during that brief 2 days' time to write and deliver final exams to substitutes, etc. Argh. And of course coming early doesn't happen only once --- every year dd's birthday comes along right in our most hectic time of year.

I used to comment on how she came early, and so her birthday comes early every year, and I've stopped doing it because I didn't like the way it sounded when I heard *her* tell the story. We're so grateful to have her, you can't micromanage a baby's birth within months let alone weeks, and so what if her birthday's in our busy time of year, she's worth it and we'll always make time for her. Her birthday is hers without regrets.

My mother passed away when I was pregnant with #1. This was by far the most life changing event for me, even now 10 years later. I stil get very emotional when I think about all the things that are missing. I always expected my mom to be around to guide me through motherhood. As I experienced challenges along the way, I'd have her as a mentor. As milestones were reached, we'd celebrate together. I am so envious of my friends who have their mothers for help. This would have also been my mom's first grandchild, and she was very excited about it, to put it mildly. My heart aches every time I think about how she was not able to enjoy being a grandparent. And that my kids will never get to meet their grandmother.

Who in Hades tracks intercourse? That seems freaky, even if you are trying to conceive. Ick, talk about a notebook you'd want burned if you were hit by a bus.

Posted by: | March 20, 2007 11:04 AM

Those of us who are tired of being told that we "never" have sex, that I "never" intitiate...

Posted by: anonymous reply | March 20, 2007 11:24 AM

If your partner perceives that the two of you never have sex and that you never initiate sexual encounters, is that a battle you can win by whipping out your handy, dandy notebook? Frequency and quality of sex seems to be one of those topics where each partner's perception IS reality. please explain, anon at 11:24. I have not walked in your shoes.

Fred, great blog, but I still miss "Fredia".

Not my emergence into full adulthood (not sure I'm there yet, or will ever be), but certainly when I discovered something had changed in my relationship to my parents:

They had come to visit me at college towards the beginning of my freshman year, bringing me some of my things that I didn't have with me already. I was carrying something, but dropped it while they were around, and said, "Oh, S**T!" They gave me Meaningful Looks as I sheepishly realized that I had never cursed in their presence before.

:Swearing in front of parents

I still recall the first time I did that; we were working in the field and my younger brother was mouthing off to me. I couldn't take it any longer and said "shut your damn mouth"!

My dad heard it, came over and said to me "I will deal with you later". He then paddled my brother for aggravating me. I didn't get my punishment for hours after, but the waiting was worse by far than the actual corporal punishment.

Many years later, back from college, I recall saying the same curse word in front of him, and half expecting him to say something about it. Instead, he kept up his end of the conversation as if nothing unusual had been said.

If your partner perceives that the two of you never have sex and that you never initiate sexual encounters, is that a battle you can win by whipping out your handy, dandy notebook? Frequency and quality of sex seems to be one of those topics where each partner's perception IS reality. please explain, anon at 11:24. I have not walked in your shoes.

Yes, I can and have. If someone wants to bemoan and wail his/her fate, and how s/he is a "victim" of everyone and everything and how I don't "love me enough to know what I want, anyway", and "if you really loved me I wouldn't have to tell you what I want or need!" then you too may feel compelled to keep that notebook.

I used to wonder if I was crazy, had completely forgotten things that HAD HAPPENED, if indeed there were conversations that we hadn't had--despite there being other adults present and telling me they had WITNESSED it.

It's crazy-making. I felt I had to take an emotional barometer every single minute of every single miserable day, dance on eggshells.

Screw that noise. I stomp those eggshells with cold, hard facts and eat omelettes instead.

And if this person wants to go away (move out, etc.) and prove that I am the source of all misery, then www.despair.com has the ideal poster for the occasion. Check out "Dysfunction". Because there are plenty of other relationships that this person has capriciously torched through the years. Me, not so many. Very few, in fact, and they had to go.

Thanks to MdMother who mentioned that site one time. It's a keeper.

My sisters and I were born within 4 weeks of each other (different years, of course). I asked mom about that once and she said: Do you think that was all an accident?? Of course not, even back then, we could figure out what to do.

I guess she wanted all of us to have spring birthdays. Which is kinda nice, since my two are spring bdays - their due dates were within two days of each other (thankfully, for planning birthday parties, their actual birthdays are 4 weeks apart, due to my first coming very early). Amazing.

I went on the pill originally because I get horrible pain when I ovulate (TMI?), so when trying to get pregnant, it was EASY to know when I was ovulating. Immensely easy. Except I kept going: no, honey, that hurts - OUCH! First was conceived within 2 months, second about 4 or five, I think. I think my husband was a little disappointed about that...

Fred, great blog. Mom dying when I was younger than now (when her first grandchild - my nephew - was 8 months old) made everything so strange for me. It was before I'd met my DH (and obviously before kids). So I never got to ask her all sorts of things - like why she married my dad, why she stayed with him all those years when she knew that there were so many problems and that it was affecting us, etc. With more perspective, I have more information, but will never know. Kinda sad. And not having her around with having the kids is kinda sad too (my son asks where my mom is - since he knows his other grandmother is dad's mom - and we say: she went to live with g-d - it's kinda sad...). Don't know what kinda grandma she'd be (when my sister told her she was pregnant, and told her the due date, mom's first reaction was: oh, I'll be out of town then. She changed her plans, but that was NOT what my sister wanted to hear - so keep that in mind, soon to be grandparents...).

But I'm with y'all on the whole growing up thing - when did *that* happen? My DH says that during thunderstorms he's still frightened to death, but remembers his dad and how calming he was and how dad wasn't scared. Now that he knows better, he thinks maybe his dad *was* scared, but didn't want to show the kids. It's so weird that we're all grown up, how did that HAPPEN?

Those of us who are tired of being told that we "never" have sex, that I "never" intitiate...

Posted by: anonymous reply | March 20, 2007 11:24 AM

Perceptions: There was a Woody Allen-Diane Keaton movie (maybe "Manhattan" ?) where in a split-screen, Allen is complaining to his shrink that he and Diane hardly ever have sex, only a couple times a week. In Keaton's half of the screen, she complains to her shrink that she and Allen have sex all the time, a couple times a week.

Great blog, Fred. It's one of the secrets of life I had to discover -- that aging brings a certain kind of relief and freedom, a comfort with the self (that is, if all goes well).

The sex discussion question reminds me of that Woody Allen movie. They show a husband and wife at the therapist separately, answering the question, How often do you have sex?

Husband: Hardly ever, probably three times a week.
Wife: All the time, three times a week!

"Because there are plenty of other relationships that this person has capriciously torched through the years. Me, not so many. Very few, in fact, and they had to go."

You sound very unhappy in this relationship. Why not try to fix it, or if it's not fixable, then why not try to get out. Life is too short.

About the idea that perception is reality. I agree. I remember watching a Woody Allen/Mia Farrow (talk about dysfunction) movie. They were a married couple whose relationship was rocky. Each one was separately complaining to a friend about his/her sex life. He said something like "And she never wants to have sex. We only do it once a week. She is just not interested, and I feel starved." And she said "And he constantly wants to have sex. He initiates every single week. Nothing satisfies him. It's overwhelming." They were both talking about sex once a week.

What is a Luddite?
Other than that, loved your Guest Blog. Thank you for sharing your stories with us and helping us newbies keep on track with this balance thing!

Hey, have you seen that Woody Allen movie?...oh, wait...

Missicat,
You are on a roll today. :-)

Funny Legacy Story of this week.

AF dau sent me an official AF photo of her which was taken last week. She is guarding an aircraft that my dad had a part in building. He did not actually contribute to that model but one of the first models of this a/c. I wrote her back saying that a/c she is guarding is older than her dad! She replied, "Wow! that is old!"

Actually the a/c was built in either 1960 or 1961 but you get the idea.

KLB - three exact references in a row to the same Woody Allen movie? That's funny...they must have been typing them pretty much at the same time.

Luddite
1. Any of a group of British workers who between 1811 and 1816 rioted and destroyed laborsaving textile machinery in the belief that such machinery would diminish employment.
2. One who opposes technical or technological change.

[After Ned Ludd, an English laborer who was supposed to have destroyed weaving machinery around 1779.]

I think that Frieda was Mrs. Ned Ludd in a previous life.

Shegeek,

I have not renamed Frieda yet but I do love Zelda! I may change my name to Adam so (guess what?) we can go from A to Z.

Comment on sex:

Around about 40, I began to agree with my wife that sex is kinda gross. Other than the fact that women are naturally icky, sticky creatures, why you all put up with us men I haven't a clue. Yuck! You females do have my sympathy on this subject.

"I went on the pill originally because I get horrible pain when I ovulate (TMI?), so when trying to get pregnant, it was EASY to know when I was ovulating."

I literally feel your pain. Before I went on the pill, the pain was so intense I could even tell WHICH OVARY was in use.

Father of 4,
We may be icky and sticky but we sure do smell good!

too much information, people. Return to the blog topic post haste.

Icky and sticky? Do we have cooties too?
:-)

WTMI

Yes mona, me too. One side is worse than the other. They almost wouldn't put me on the pill when I was in college cause they thought, I think, I was just trying to get BC. And there was some whole procedure for that.

Mom died of ovarian cancer, but I don't know for sure if she had these pains all her life or not-but I suspect she did, cause she kind of poopooed my pains. And the fact that we were all born w/in 4 weeks of each other.

WTMI???

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much information!

KLB SS MD, "we sure do smell good!"

I would also like to point out that all you girls feel good too. Real good!

God certainly knew what the hell he was doing when he created woman.

And you don't have to read to book of Genesis to figure out that God is a man!

I vote for Fred and either Fredia/Freida to keep their names. What with NC lawyer changing to Megan's neighbor, another librarian changing to Marian, I won't be able to remember who is who anymore.

Here I am, protesting change. It is now official: I am old, or at least becoming a luddite.

hey girls, you CANNOT take ovarian cancer too seriously. By the time most women have symptoms the cancer is very advanced. If you have any symptoms that give you concern you should talk to your MD. I have a friend who died at 28 of it. Sorry to be such a downer.

"And the fact that we were all born w/in 4 weeks of each other."

LOL - shortest pregnancies in history.

Yes, Missicat, all girls have cooties. That's what I'm teaching my sons anyway. :-)

What with NC lawyer changing to Megan's neighbor

That's what happened to NC Lawyer! Where have I been. I was just wondering what happened to her the other day and I was hoping things were alright, now I know she just changed her identity. WHew.

dotted reminded me of something: have you ever done or said something and immediately thought "oh my - I sound just like my mother/father"?

Mine was seeing a kid walking down the street with his pants WAY down his butt. These actual words crossed my mind: "these kids today".

Why thank you for your concern, moxiemom, LOL!

dotted, you are NOT old, merely efficient with your use of brain cells.

signed,

somehow else who is NOT old and couldn't remember that Marian was another librarian.

Yes, Missicat, all girls have cooties. That's what I'm teaching my sons anyway. :-)

Posted by: Father of 4 | March 20, 2007 12:58 PM

Teach 'em about condoms too.

Moxiemom, I'm with you. I was wondering what happened to NC lawyer!

Speaking of lawyers, everyone seems to think I will find my next boyfriend or husband in law school. I truthfully can't think of anything I'd like less than dating another law student! Am I crazy?

but Marian knows creepy vans!

(Fred! Fred! sound of slapping hands, get back on topic!)

Yes Mona, you are crazy!

Still Sad said "My mother passed away when I was pregnant with #1. This was by far the most life changing event for me, even now 10 years later."

I'm so sorry - I know how awful that is. My mother was diagnosed with an extremely aggressive form of breast cancer in my 2nd trimester with DS#1. To this day, I think she willed herself to make it through to that first Christmas (a doctor-defying 13 months!) with the baby, her 1st and long awaited grandchild. She passed away less than a month later.

My parents were young, so i always believed I'd have my mother around to guide me through the minefield that is motherhood. I've finally got the hang of it, but i often wonder if i'd be a much better mother if she were still here to help.

I know I'm not changing my name. It would be too difficult to remember what my new name is/would be.

Mona, I think the odds are that your friends are right - but I don't think you're crazy!

Love all the stories today from everyone who says they still don't feel grown up! Every time I visit any of my friends who live in 'real' houses (as opposed to apartments), I feel like I have crossed over into the twilight zone - holy cow, we're grownups!

re being an adult: the first time you are even nominally involved in another person's health care you are an adult. It's eye opening to watch a grown friend or relative lean on you for support.

Mona: I am with you on finding a non-lawyer BF. Two lawyers in a relationship could be a bit much. Perhaps Laura or MN can give a better reason than my gut instict.

"Teach 'em about condoms too."

Nope. I'm Catholic. For us, we play games like Rythim, Pull 'n pray, and then Bingo is you don't get it right.

Life is a game!

Oh, moxie mom, I do not. I definitely hold anger, this many years later, that mom did not go to the dr when she felt pain. I know this cause her boyfriend told us that. She *only* went to the dr when she couldn't walk anymore and she went to the emergency room.
By then, even after chemo etc, it was too late. She lived abou 18 mos after, but in lots of pain and in and out of the hospital. A dr told me that w one case in the family, there is probably no hereditary involved (my grandma just turned 90 and her sisters lived til their 80s and my great grandma lived til almost 90 as well- but bc mompassed, it is more expensive for life ins).

She could have caught it earlier and she might have been with us longer. I find this selfish of her. And hope to take good care of myself so I'm here for my kids.

Yes, it took her 3 days or so to take me to the dr when I broke my ankle-she thought I was faking it for attention.

Mona,
I'm sure some people may disagree with me, but I found I could only really date guys who understood what I was going through in getting a PhD (meaning in school vs working)...and that meant going out with fellow students for a while. We were sharing experiences together so it seemed natural. So I wouldn't say you shouldn't date fellow law students. I've seen too many happy couples years later who met as law students.

Alright! Stop knocking the two lawyer couples. I met my DH in law school and we are about to celebrate our 5th anniversary. Not everyone is a litigator. Some people go to law school and then become a govt atty or work for a non profit (we've each done both.) It can work, and Mona, never say never.

Where are Scarry and FoamGnome?

'we play games like Rythim, Pull 'n pray'

only advisable when following the church's abstinence until marriage edict.

For us, we play games like Rythim, Pull 'n pray, and then Bingo is you don't get it right.

Life is a game!

Posted by: Father of 4 | March 20, 2007 01:14 PM

What a sad way for a child to know s/he came into the world.

Laura / Mona (and wasn't my form of address for you a tip-off,LOL?), You may be crazy, but not because you have no desire to date or marry another lawyer :>)

The law school culture is funny, though. People who are not in law school tend not to understand as well as other law school students the culture and the interim, yet future-oriented and values-focused thoughts and discussions that fill those three years. It's really easy to date another law school student because you don't have to explain as much. They understand your stressors and your joys. They also tend to be competitive with you, and bring with them the temptation to shape your career goals around someone else's career goals so the two of you can stay together. Your plan to avoid all this drama is a good one.

I look forward to hearing about your next boyfriend whomever you designate.

if Megan is in Colorado, how is NC Lawyer a neighbor?

if Megan is in Colorado, how is NC Lawyer a neighbor?

Thru the magic of the internet - we are all neighbors now (hug hug kiss kiss).

Group Hug!

if Megan is in Colorado, how is NC Lawyer a neighbor?

Posted by: experienced mom | March 20, 2007 01:20 PM

Well, we're all here, aren't we all neighbours of a sort?

"How will my children recall me?"

I think about this a lot. Started actively thinking about this the first time I took my son to Disneyland and saw a mom yelling at her kids for dropping their candy on the ground. I know the food is expensive in those theme parks, but is that really the memory you want to create for your kids?

Father of 4

"For us, we play games like Rythim, Pull 'n pray, and then Bingo is you don't get it right.

Life is a game!"

Is that what your teenage daughter plans to do?

I have been known to have memory issues, but I am fairly certain that Megan lives in Apex, North Carolina (approx. 2 - 3 miles max away from my Cary residence). dotted is farther away, but if I'm wrong about Megan, I'll become dotted's neighbor. It's a mighty big village.

TakomaMom, I have long suspected that you are significantly more grown up than many of us living in "real" houses.

Not sure if I will ever understand why Fred has gotten such a lovefest reaction to his Guest Blog and Father of Four got such a slamming. I love both guys and thought they both wrote AMAZING Guest Blogs. What am I missing?

Alt mom - so sorry! I think a lot of parents forget that taking good care of themselves, going to the gym, getting check ups is a responsibility and a gift to your children once you have them. I go to the gym 3x a week and don't like too much about it. I life the side effects - feeling and looking better, but I can think of a gillion other ways I'd like to spend my time but now that I'm a mom, I have a higher obligation not to die.

Mona while I understand your trepidation, there is something to be said about understanding the other's work. DH and I were both in health care/policy and although I haven't worked in 6 years, I understand what he is doing and we are able to have conversations about his work that I know other wives don't have with their husbands. Not judging those who are this way, but simply saying this is a nice upside to our situation.

Leslie,

Because I am a frustrated Fitzgerald and Fo4 is a frustrated Hemmingway. Everyone knows that Fitzgerald is better!

Amen Fred!

or rather Right Said Fred. hah ha

product of a working mom - I agree about the health care of another person thing. The most wrenching moments of my life thus far have been getting the calls about parents in hospitals near death (had two, one for each parent, in a year and a half), when I got the call that my best friend in HS was dying, and when I had to take my partner to the doctor with a suspected heart attack (wasn't one, thank God). Makes you feel grown up too fast.

altmom - I was right there with you on the parent thinking you're faking thing - I had walking pneumnia and mom said I was faking, had torn ligaments in ankle from re-spraining it twice in three days that eventually needed surgery (mom said I was exaggerating), ended up in hospital for three days with diverticulitis (mom said it was just a little gas). I take DD to the doctor probably too much because of that - I'd hate to know I'd caused damage because I'd held off on taking her in!

Not sure if I will ever understand why Fred has gotten such a lovefest reaction to his Guest Blog and Father of Four got such a slamming. I love both guys and thought they both wrote AMAZING Guest Blogs. What am I missing?

Posted by: Leslie | March 20, 2007 01:29 PM

You're missing either memory or depth.

The only thing today's blog and Father of 4's blog have in common is that both were written by male columnists.

Different message. Different perspectives. Different levels of maturity.

"I truthfully can't think of anything I'd like less than dating another law student! Am I crazy?"

Absolutely not!

I made some of my best friends in law school -- there's something about going through that amount of stress together that binds you to one another. Like Megan's NC Lawyer Neighbor said, it's great for dating. But I MARRIED an engineer. :-)

Ok, to be fair, I do know two-lawyer couples who are managing fine. But you just have to be able to put aside your "lawyer" skills and whip out those negotiation skills. Not saying all lawyers are win-at-all-costs a$$hats, but law school does seem to attract more than its fair share of those types -- and dealing with other lawyers seems to bring out their worst. :-) The skills that make, say, a good trial lawyer are not necessarily those that make a good partner.

So. Eyes open. Like anything else, can be good, can be a train wreck.

Thanks 01:07 PM.
There are a ton of decisions I've made, wondering if it's the right one, and wishing I just had a sounding board. Of course, my husband and I try to make the best decisions we can, but some experienced thoughts would be helpful. My mom tried