OK, am I first?

Do I just trust that my kids will be okay in the long run?

Simply put, yes, as long as you're sure you're doing your best to meet those needs. Nobody has a perfect childhood. Your kids will be fine. In fact, if the worst thing they can say about you is that you had a job, then you're doing great.

Don't really know what to think about this blog entry. Is Susan insinuating that both parents need to stay at home to meet the needs of their children? I guess what I don't like about this blog is the obvious double standard. Presumably, the kids at pre-school know what DAD looks like. So who cares if they don't know what MOM looks like? How many of the other pre-schoolers can say that?

While I appreciate Susan's honesty and ability to open up about her life, I have a problem with the notion that a SAHD isn't good enough. I think this sends the wrong message and the implication is clear - that it is Mom's responsiblity to provide child care to the family. Perhaps I'm reading too much into this, but that was my gut feeling.

Londonmom: I guess I did not get that feeling at all when reading her blog. I thought she was just questioning her general decision to work. I am not sure having a SAHD changes her complex emotions. Of course the reality is, someone needs to work to pay the bills. I was actually quite surprised that being a professor was so demanding. Maybe she is not tenured. But once your tenured, it doesn't seem like such long hours. But the commute into Atlanta is probably rough. I would be curious how her SAHH is doing? Does he plan to go back to work? Will things slow down once she is tenured?

"The kids at preschool wanted to know what you look like," which clearly caused her some pain. Short of sending in a picture, I am not sure what to do."

Ignore it. Or explain to your child that we live in a sexist society where the expectations are that mom is at home and that his 5 year old is already indoctrinated in sexism

I agree with Londonmom. What is the point? Are you insinuating that your husband is not a good enough father? You say you are spending a lot of (quality)time with your children, if you really are, then they know it. Also you say that you go to her preschool once a month. Is your school filled with helicopter mothers? Why isn't once a month enough? Maybe you need a different preschool then?

Or it could be that the time you are spending with your children is not really focused on them. Or your husband doesn't focus on them. Really, you should be able to have time for yourself as well as time with your children. If your hours are really flexible, then that should be the case. Long hours or not. Can you not do your academic work after they go to bed? That's what I used to do when I was in academia.

How about moving closer to your job? How about changing jobs? I've found when I am happy with my career/job, inconsequential comments like your daughter's don't bother me. Maybe you need a change.

I live in Howard County. Some parents are able to stagger their shifts and have one do dropoff and one to pickup. Many however have a situation where one parent commutes into DC and the other works in suburban MD somewhere. So it is not at all unusual for one parent to do the majority of picking up/dropping off. I would imagine this is pretty normal in any major metropolitan area where long commutes are normal.

I put brackets around "being facetious" after "sexism" and it didn't show up. I was kidding.

Foamgnome,
Georgia Tech is not a 'teaching college,' it is a research university. Although the author does not mention it, it is likely that she needs to spend a lot of time chasing research funding and supervise graduate students. When I went to Maryland my thesis advisor was constantly writing proposals so that she could pay her students and have money for lab supplies and equipment. The university provides very little beyond the infrastructure (which they pay for by taking at least 50% of whatever research grants you win).

foamgame,
Being a professor is not necessarily that demanding and there is flexibility with hours. And she says she is an associate professor so she either has tenure or doesn't. Those decisions are made prior to associate professor. It seems her issues are with the "long hours"/commute. Many women work and have fulfilling careers. I think her career must not be as fulfilling as she says. Or she is not very good at time management.

"The kids want to know what you look like" sounds kind of suspicious to me. I think it would be unusual for a four year old to display that amount of interest in someone else's parents. I'm wondering if maybe that particular classmate is parroting something she might have heard her own snide SAHM say. ("I don't even know what that Susan person looks like . . " said over Starbucks with the other SAHM's.)

I'm actually more worried about what the author is doing to herself by waking up at 4:30 AM and running herself ragged than I am about what it's doing to the kids. I tried to do something similar a few years ago and found myself so burned out that I literally couldn't enjoy anything. If at all possible, try to think this through from a long-term perspective, Susan. Can you keep up this pace for another year, five years, indefinitely? HOw do you think you'll feel about it five years from now? ten years from now? (A friend of mine who works full=time with a really long commute told me there are days when she sort of counts down to the day the kids will be in college so she can finally get some rest -- and I remember feeling similar. It was kind of like a low-level resentment for the frenetic pace being foisted upon everyone.)

Armchair mom--you make excellent points.

And assuming the kid was parroting her month, why would another mother make a nasty comment like that anyway? Hmmmm....

I agree with working mother. Ignore the comment. Your job as a parent is to prepare your child for the world, not to make him or her happy every moment of every day. It sounds like you are providing an excellent example of how the world is -- somebody has to have a paying job in order to make all the other things happen. That said, it also seems as if the long commute, long hours, and high level of responsibility is taking a heavy toll. I also agree with Armchair Mom that the "balance" may be tipped so that too much of the weight falls on Susan. Something needs to change here -- life is not supposed to be a bed of roses, but it's also not supposed to be such a colossal struggle that there's no joy in it.

Do we really have to "completely meet [our] children's needs" all the time?

I understand Susan's frustration about her kids wanting more. I work part-time and spend almost all of my time out of the office with my kids and they still want more. I find my children are completely insatiable. I work 28 hours a week, 4 seven-hour days. I leave early so I can be home by 4:00pm, giving me 4 hours with my kids before lights out, Mon-Thurs., when they are not in school on Fri. and Sat. & Sun. I feel like I have a lot of time with them. But, my kids still complain that they want me home more and stick to me like velcro when I'm home. I love the fact that they love me and want to be with me but I get weary sometimes of feeling like it's never enough.

I was home on a leave of absence for a number of months and my kids were a little less clingy but there were still times when they protested me leaving. My question is - are all kids insatiable like this or do folks think it's a more common issue for working parents, and possibly more often working moms? Or, is it just my kids?

I stay at home, and work just twelve hours per week. My kids would be thrilled if I didn't even do those twelve hours! They'd love to have me around the clock if they could. They are 5 and 3, and their daddy is with them when I'm not. I think "wanting more" of mom is normal. But the balance works for us, and I think it's very good for them to learn that the family dynamic isn't based 100% around their concerns. We need to do what's best for us all.

PT Fed Mof2, my kids are like yours - no matter how much time I spend with them, and no matter how many fun activities we do - they want more. That's why I don't think we can ever meet our kids' needs (wants?) completely. And that's probably a good thing for them to learn.

PT Fed Mof2 ,
No, it is not just your kids. Mine was clingy when I was SAHM for 3 yrs and is still clingy a year after I started working FT. I think, some of the clinginess is insecurity but most of it is to test boundaries. And I have noticed that if I insist she give me sometime for myself either to read or watch TV or get dinner ready, she usually does - after months of consistently showing her that she can entertain herself for a few mins.

"And she says she is an associate professor so she either has tenure or doesn't. Those decisions are made prior to associate professor."

??? Do you know that's the case at Ga. Tech.? At my mother's college, you went from Assistant Prof. to Assoc. Prof. well before you got tenure. It sounds to me like she's right in the thick of proving herself and building a name and learning the grant system etc. etc. etc., which is hugely tough even without young kids.

Susan, all I can suggest is that you go a little easier on yourself. In my own experience, when kids hit 5 or so, they start being aware of the differences between them and other people, so they try to understand those differences (my daughter is fascinated with skin tone and ethnicity right now).

Plus, if your daughter is anything like mine, she knows how to work you. :-) Just last week, my daughter pulled out "why don't parents want to spend time with their kids?" Yeah, twist the knife. But you have to take that stuff with a grain of salt -- in my case, I had just gotten back from a 2-day business trip that afternoon, and since I almost never travel and she is a creature of habit, that was her way of saying "I missed you."

One other thing: again, don't know if your daughter is like mine, but mine has just recently entered the stage where when she gets angry, she says things that she hopes will be hurtful to provoke a response. So now she's trying out different threats to find the one that will get the biggest reaction (she quickly figured out that "I'm never going to come into your bedroom at night again!" didn't really get the reaction she wanted ("ummm, ok, great!"), and has now moved on to "I'm never going to speak to you again" and the like).

I'm not saying that your daughter doesn't miss you. She may need more mommy time -- I think the worry you express is what led a number of posters on this board to choose to both have lower-stress jobs instead of one having a high-demand job and the other staying at home. All I'm saying is that you shouldn't automatically leap to that conclusion, because it could also be any number of other things that are totally normal for 5-yr-olds.

Susan you've probably heard the phrase "Damning with faint phrase".

What you've done with the observation:
"The kids clearly have needs that are not being fulfilled."
with the justification:
"The kids at preschool wanted to know what you look like",
you've actually complimented yourself with faint damning.

Clever! But I really can't think of a real life eexample that could be more petty than what you ggave us to feel guilty about as a parent.

Next thing you'll be saying things like, "I'm worried about sending my daughter to kindergarten because I havn't taught her the multiplication tables yet."

It's perfectly clear to me that not only your children's need ARE being fulfilled, but your rank as a mother is in the top 95 percentile. Typical though, for engineering professors!

I grew up with my father doing all the pick ups/drop offs, teacher conferences, etc...to the point where people thought he was a single dad. He was a teacher with a similar schedule and was in the same city instead of a 45 minute commute away. It didn't negatively impact any of us, yes we were thrilled when mom could make our soccer games and on the weekend when she was around to do other things. I think the key is having someone, mom, dad, grandparents, aunts, uncles, whomever to be available to the children. Yes they may want all of your time right now, but will realize that you can't always get what you want, which is a good thing.

'I find my children are completely insatiable'

right, mine too. Do your best and don't feel guilty. Children feed on guilt like sharks.

I think the bottom line is that you must be comfortable and happy with the situation, and it sounds like Susan is not. Personally, I have found that eliminating the long communte did wonders with my work/home balance satisfaction. Luckily we got into the housing market (close to where we work) before it skyrocketed, but being a 5 minutes drive from the office has made life much more enjoyable, and the kids see both DH and I much more.

No one has mentioned this yet- but is moving so that you're closer to work out of the question? Maybe you won't be able to afford as much house but a shorter commute is worth at least 1000 square feet. I have a very short commute from my teeny little house to work in downtown DC, and I can't even imagine what my life (or my family's lives) would be like if I had to do a long commute every day.

I also leave very early in the morning and come home later in the evening. I have done this some 26 years. Frieda and I live in a very small town where we can send our kids to public school and not worry too much about their safety. This is the trade off that I have made to give my wife and children a slower pace of life. Maybe every want of my kids wasn't met but oh well! I think now that 3 or the 4 are adults, they understand and appreciate why Frieda and I have made this choice. I guess I need to ask them!

I am not trying to be mean and maybe the kids are too young but doesn't there come a time in a kid's life when they come to the realization that it isn't all about them? They have to learn to share their toys and their parents. I have friends who, the minute they get on the phone, have two kids in the room trying to talk at the same time. Obviously a two year old isn't going to be able to understand as much but a five year old could get "mommy needs a few minutes to do (fill in the blank)". Maybe set a timer so they know that when it goes off they will get some attention.

The day I knew my kid was smarter than me:

4 yo - Mommy! Stay here! Play with me!
Mom - Mommy has to go to work, play with (grandparent, cousin)
4 yo - Why?! Why do you have to go to work?
Mom - Well, we need to pay for the house, buy clothes, food, electricity, gasoline...

4 yo - (contemplative pause) Go to work to buy money?

Mom - Yes, that sums it up.

4 yo - (with cheeky smile) Go to work, buy money, give to (insert 4 yo's name)!

I had to laugh.

Re: Today's guest blogger.

Don't fret about it. If you can stop in sometime, do so. Otherwise, let it go. This probably doesn't come from the other kids (some of whom may be asking their DADDY why he can't be there). It's not up to us to make satisfy their every whim.

Go for a carousel ride with the kid instead!

KLB, you're not being mean, you're absolutely right! For some reason, a lot of people think their kids must come first all the time, and I think that creates a lot of stress in the parents without which everybody's lives (including the kids'!) might just be nicer.

I think that children do have a sometimes instatiable desire for their parents and for fun activities. But that does not mean that giving them what they want is what they need!

I do think that many young children have a mother preference. There may be many reasons for this preference, including social expectations. This preference means that when Dad is the primary caregiver, the Mom may be besieged when she is home. But that does not mean that the Dad is not a wonderful caregiver.

When my children were young, I worked longer hours than my husband and he picked them up from day care and spent a couple of hours with them before I got home. My youngest daughter had a strong mother preference, but my husband wasn't threatened by it, and my daughter has always been close to me, so I didn't worry about it.

I think you should be happy that your children want to be with you. It shows that you have a good relationship with them. I think it may be that few of their peers have a stay at home dad and many have stay at home moms. It might be useful to connect with other families that have stay at home dads, so your children will see that they are not unique. Talk to them about how lucky they are to have their dad with them during the day.

Also, you should make time to visit their school at least once in the fall and once in the spring, if you have any flexibility at all. Most schools have some kind of activity when kids perform or show their art. It sounds like the children want to show you off to their friends.

I also think that one thing that happens with working moms is that the week-ends are devoted just to the family. If your chidlren have some good friends at school, have play dates over the week-end so their friends can meet you. And you can have some time to yourself while your children play with their friends.

You seem to feel guilty about working. You have no reason to feel guilty. You have full-time parent care for your children. But your guilt may lead you to take your children's complaints too seriously.

I think the question that is really begging to be asked is: How many engineers does it take to raise children?

None, as they do not have children. They are still trying to figure out how to SCREW in a lightbulb. :-P

I also am mostly home with my kids and they still want more and more of me. Last Saturday I took a shower in the middle of the day and when I came back downstairs my 2 year old screamed "Mommy you're back" and ran to hug me. I had been out of sight for no more than 20 minutes. You are your children's addiction and they will eventually grow out of it. Work, don't work it does not matter.

Susan,
I agree with others saying to ignore this comment from your daughter. It is likely parrotted from other parents. Having said this, I've done the research/teaching/tenure thing with small children, in engineering even. In a big city too...though not Atlanta! The job is very much akin to running a small business. However, there is one key difference, and it was the one I exploited. I could do productive work from home. Both my husband and I were on the tenure track in fact. We continued working and every week, we each took one day where we wrote/worked from home. In this day and age, you can have virtual meetings over the internet. Use technology to improve your personal view of family. We didn't have that kind of technology then so we had to live right next to the University to make it work. But you do...leverage it...big time. As an aside, I once had a research ephiphany in the middle of building a lego and train city. Today that ephiphany may be part of some of the online business software you may be using. Productivity doesn't have to go away because you may be doing childplay. Keep your mind open on the possibilities in order to get what you want when you want it.

Susan, Maybe emphasizing how special and unique they are to have their dad stay home with them might take some of the sting out of your daughter's comments about her peers at preschool. Does you husband volunteer? Kids think it is way cool to have dads come into the classroom. It is our experience that not too many dads do, but when they do the kids come home with a news bulletin that "Sally's dad was in class today!"

Since we have a situation that allows my husband to do at least 50% of the volunteering my kids have always felt really special because they had their dad there when everyone else has their mom. I make it to many of their parties and volunteer myself and sometimes we are there together.

I know kids make all kinds of comments that we all take so personally. Then we worry that we aren't doing or saying enough, but it is just kids making observations. That is what they do best! If you trust your husband everything will be fine.

Also, the velcro kid syndrome for a 2 year old is normal - the 5 year old may just be jumping on the bandwagon. I notice that when my 6 year old son crawls on my lap suddenly my daughter - who is 9 - suddenly wants attention too. It has always been that way.

Best thing our pediatrician ever said to me: "You're not the entertainment committee."

Her point was perfect - while kids need their parents, and need time to play with their parents, they also need a lot of time on their own, to learn to play by themselves and entertain themselves.

The pediatrician also pointed out on numerous occasions that kids know instinctively how to play their parents, and will constantly test to see how much they can get away with.

Bottom line: you're most likely doing fine.

DD is still very clingy. She can never seem to get enough time with mom. I personally don't see that as a problem with working. If it was up to DD, she would never leave the house with out mom. And frankly she does need to go to school and go other places.

fo4: you were a bit harsh.

cmac-my 12 and 16 year still do the velcro kid thing. I may be comfortably sitting on the sofa and this huge boy will be siddling up wanting a hug. Last night they jumped on their dad on the sofa as it was his go. We all do hugs to improve our day! Sometimes the velcro thing is just a way to say I love you, not I need you.

Ajax and mostly home mom - Glad to hear I'm not the only one. I agree with you both too - can't live your lives based on fulfilling our children's every want and need - we need to consider everyone's needs. Reality check - if I gave in to the things my children whine about the most their diet would consist of cookies and ice cream and my house would look like a toy store. Oh wait, thanks to our very generous extended family it already does!!

Caveat - This is a legit question, not veiled sarcasm or snarkiness.

For those moms out there with clingy, insatiable kids: Do your children exhibit independent behaviors in addition to the clinginess? If not, does this concern you? I am blessed with sons (5 and 2.5) who never had a problem separating and have learned to entertain themselves and, ultimately, each other from an early age, so I really can't relate to what you're describing. Frankly, it kind of scares me - I'm not sure how I'd handle it. I'd really like to know how you all do handle it. Thanks!

foamgnome-I read fo4 as saying Susan was a great mom! I didn't get a harsh note...I'll reread.

"Short of sending in a picture, I am not sure what to do." Why not? My son has had a laminated picture of my husband and me in his school bag since his first day (3 years ago). His teacher says he will get it out from time to time and hold it for a while and then put it back. Seems to bring him some comfort. Maybe another child has a similar picture which prompted the discussion.

This year, the kids all brought in family pictures in September and they are displayed around the classroom. The children love to look at the pictures of their classmates with their family.

Susan,

Just wait until they are teen-agers. It must be the laws of physics come into play as all of the clingy energy has the opposite and equal reaction in later years!

Dotted,

An epiphany, wow! I love epiphanies! An epiphany is one quantum leap over a revelation!

fo4: my apologies. I must have misread it. It sounded sarcastic at the end to me.

Re: one parent always picking up/dropping off/being with the child:

With 4 kids, it's very rare that both of us parents are with the same child at once. Usually, it's "I've got this one and that one; you've got the other two." We trade off so that we each get to see some of each child's activities. Since I've coached our middle daughter's softball team for the last 7 years, I have to be there for every game, and my wife has rarely seen her play.

Apparently the fact that I was always around the park without a wife sparked some discussion among a couple of the mothers about whether I was widowed or divorced (despite the presence of the ring on my hand), and one mother was talking to another about trying to set me up with a friend of theirs. Fortunately, one of the other mothers who's a family friend and knows my wife well overheard them and advised them that setting me up with anybody other than my wife wouldn't be a good idea.

Since then, my wife has made it a point to show up to a few of those games a year.

dotted,
how lucky you are to have teenagers who actually want to be in the same room with you, not to mention wanting and giving hugs. Obviously you are doing it right.

I am not a parent so I'm not totally sure about this, but would it help your kids if they knew where you were during the day? I used to freak out when my dad came home from work--it was as if he'd been in a black hole all day. Then a couple of times he took me to see his classroom, and let me colour quietly at a desk while he taught. It was much easier on me once I could picture what he was doing when he was away.

dotted - that is so sweet to read. We hug a lot too - both kids are snugglers. My husband and I do get the "pile on" treatment.

I do worry about my kids turning away from me or being embarrassed at some middle school public event when I try to hug them. I see some older elementary boys at the bus stop shrinking from their moms when they try to grab them and kiss them and it breaks my heart.

Yep, I see the double standard thing rearing its ugly head. Children will always have "needs" that are not being met if one of the parents is out all the time. Traditionally the father was out and the mother was home and nobody ever said how childrens needs were not being met for lack of the father being at home. Why then, unless he is a bad dad, and you have said he is great- do you say their needs are not being met? Could it be that there really is something more important about the mother being there at home instead of the father? Or could it be that you feel you should be the one at home instead? I do not have the insight to say which would be better for you- but perhaps you should re-evaluate how both of you feel about who should be the one out engineering the dough.

Fred-ephiphany is my contribution to raising the social network of this blog...like you do with latin.

#1 - contrary to popular belief SAHMs do not sit around at Starbucks judging WOHMs.

#2 - I'm a SAHM and my kids also love to be with me whenever they can. They also cling to daddy whenever he gets home. I think they just really dig us at this age. Also, my ds has a picture of he and I in his lunchbox that he enjoys. I also send in a joke or quiz question to give a laugh and let him know I'm thinking of him.

You are probably doing a fine job - you just really love them and they you! That's terrific.

'I find my children are completely insatiable'

This statement reminded me of when my husband and I first met. We felt as if we couldn't get enough of each other- we ate, slept, breathed for each other. We were madly and deeply, without reservations, in love. And so are our kids. They love us completely and totally- no amount of time will ever be enough for them. It's incredibly sweet and so pure that of course it hurts us to deny them what they, in their little hearts and souls, need on just a very base level.

But, as in a new relationship, life must carry on outside of the realtionship- work, friends, family obligations, etc...Just as we made room and rearranged our lives for our partners, we have rearranged and changed our lives for our kids. But that doesn't mean that's all there is. It's important to teach kids that we love them, but life occurs outside of their interests and their home.

I agree that the key guilt producing comment seems to be, "the kids want to know what you look like".

Where did that come from? It doesn't sound like kid talk. It sounds like something he/he heard from an adult.

You kids know what you look like. That's all that matters.

There's guilt no matter what you do - let it go and enjoy the fact that they're at the age where they want you around.

Off Topic - This story made me laugh out loud:

The Washcloth..............

I was due for an appointment with the gynecologist later in the week. Early one morning, I received a call from the doctor's office to tell me that I had been rescheduled for that morning at 9:30 am. I had only just packed everyone off to work and school, and it was already around 8:45am. The trip to his office took about 35 minutes, so I didn't have any time to spare.
As most women do, I like to take a little extra effort over hygiene when making such visits, but this time I wasn't going to be able to make the full effort. So, I rushed upstairs, threw off my pajamas, wet the washcloth that was sitting next to the sink, and gave myself a quick wash in that area to make sure I was at least presentable. I threw the washcloth in the clothes basket, donned some clothes, hopped in the car and raced to my appointment. I was in the waiting room for only a few minutes when I was called in.
Knowing the procedure, as I'm sure you do, I hopped up on the table, looked over at the other side of the room and pretended that I was in Paris or some other place a million miles away.
I was a little surprised when the doctor said, 'My, we have made an extra effort this morning, haven't we?' I didn't respond.
After the appointment, I heaved a sigh of relief and went home. The rest of the day was normal . Some shopping, cleaning, cooking.
After school when my 6 year old daughter was playing, she called out from the bathroom, 'Mommy, where's my washcloth?' I told her to get another one from the cupboard.
She replied, 'No, I need the one that was here by the sink, it had all my glitter and sparkles saved inside it.'

Never going back to that doctor ever.

My children would like me around every minute too. Of course that is not possible. My son is 9 and he has not out grown it yet. But for me it is the best feeling in the world to be loved so much. It is a feeling that I have only gotten from my children.

Round about the fifth grade my daughter put it to us something like this:

"Mom, Dad, you know how my birthday is next Tuesday? And like, you know, how you come up to school and have lunch with me on my birthday? Well, um, this year, uh, unless you really, really want to, you don't really need to, I mean, you are busy and all, and um, uh, if you don't show up, I won't get all upset or anything."

Me: "So it's not cool to eat lunch with your parents anymore?"

Her: "yeah, something like that, I think"

fairfax: cute story.

I think you need to just do the best you can for your kids. I mean everyone could spend more time with their children; kids want all your time. Won't your kids get to go to school for free when they grow up because you are a teacher at Georgia Tech?

Also, one of the teachers may have said that they didn't know what you looked like. Teachers aren't perfect either. Another parent may have asked for a specific reason and they didn't know how to describe you. Either way, don't sweat it!

"I agree that the key guilt producing comment seems to be, "the kids want to know what you look like".

Where did that come from? It doesn't sound like kid talk. It sounds like something he/he heard from an adult."

Is it possible that the children were just curious? Maybe they did hear it from an adult. That doesn't make it a bad thing. If I see a child and only one parent over a period of time, I might also wonder what the other parent looks like, especially if the child looks nothing like the parent I see. Just curiosity, nothing nasty intended.

The problem may be that Susan doesn't feel good about not being at the pre-school more, and is feeling guilt already, and then takes an innocent remark out of context.

I found that when kids start to want your full attention all the time, then you just have to be firm. Tell them that Mommy or Daddy has to do something else right now and they will be fine playing by themselves or with siblings. Approach it matter of factly, not apologeticly and it may help the child become more independent. I also found TV to be great when you just need 20 minutes or so around the house for phone calls, other tasks, or just peace of mind. TV is not all evil - moderation in everything.

My situation was similar to Fedworker's. My mom worked nights so Dad was on school duty (drop offs, PTA meetings, conferences etc.) for me and my two sisters. We all turned out great. So, Susan, it is perfectly okay if your child's preschool acquaintance doesn't know what you look like. The most important thing is that your kids know. The will grow up just fine.

"For those moms out there with clingy, insatiable kids: Do your children exhibit independent behaviors in addition to the clinginess?"

2terrificboys: yeah, my daughter's the walking oxymoron, both hugely clingy and hugely independent. Basically, she's an attention hound -- when I'm there, it's all about mommy, but as soon as I leave, she happily redeploys all that energy to taking over whatever little world she happens to be in at the moment. Far as I can tell, she just wants an audience for everything. Part of the reason we had a second (built-in reminder that It's Not All About Her).

I spent most of my second pregnancy desperately hoping this one would be less clingy than her. And even at 16 months, he's already tremendously independent. He doesn't have anywhere near the need for attention that she does, will play happily by himself (usually sneaking off into the other room to get into somewhere he's not supposed to be -- he's stealth trouble), etc. And it actually makes me sad!! My little snugglebunny is too busy banging things together to want to sit and snuggle with mommy any more! The classic "be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it."

Why are you living in Alfretta when you work at Tech? I did that commute for three months as a single person and it almost killed me. There are plenty of nice, still affordable homes in the Perimeter and some decent school districts.

"For those moms out there with clingy, insatiable kids: Do your children exhibit independent behaviors in addition to the clinginess?"

Like Laura, our DD is complete opposites. She still cries every day if mom is home when she needs to go to school. But she also has started to kick me out of the room. Mainly when she wants to do something naughty, like climb up on her shelf and take down forbidden objects. DD has always had a high capacity to entertain herself. But she has some developmental delays, so I am not sure what is normal. But if she is watching TV, she wants to sit directly in my lap. Even as a baby,she would crawl to her baby gate and look for where I was.

Chris,

As an engineer currently trying to start a family, I found your joke not in the least funny.

Re: today's essay, could it be that the kids are simply reflecting the mother's anxieties? Mom may be giving off signals (or even openly remarking) that it's a bad thing that she's not with the kids more, which causes the kids to parrot that attitude back to her through words or actions. It may also be the case that Dad is sending such signals when Mom's not home, in which case he needs to come clean to Mom about how he feels.

Kids are adaptable; perhaps if the parents were to communicate a greater level of comfort with their parenting arrangement, the kids would not feel unfulfilled.

FO4 - LOL I have a 5th grader who is now doing that - I'm "embarrassing" now! But at home she still wants me to tuck her in at night. ;-)

I would say she needs to see if she can find an easier arrangement. Perhaps teach some night classes. I'm sure her tenure was hard-won, especially at a place like GA Tech. But if she could perhaps switch to teaching at a college closer to home or perhaps some online courses? I'm just throwing out ideas here.

Laura, my dd is the same - it's all about her!

Of course, Susan has to decide whether there's an imbalance she wants to address, or this is just an inevitable complaint because no-one can stretch in all ways to be perfectly present whenever the kids desire you . . .

And it sounds like you're feeling the stress more with your daughter (maybe because she's more sensitive, or maybe just because she's more articulate, or more explicitly demanding). Since she's 5, I'm guessing her schedule will likely change dramatically in the next year (summer off, then full-day K, unless you're keeping her in a private part-time K program next year --- I'm assuming from your wording that she's in private half-day preschool, not a public full-day pre-K classroom at her eventual elementary school.) So if her preschool days are ending in a few months anyway, you may need just to adjust her schedule at the edges for this school year, as the issues will change entirely in a few months, anyway.

But, some possibilities if you are looking to reconnect with your kids a little during their regular school days. I don't think it's unusual for preschoolers to want both parents to have some 'presence' in their school life, to know their world of in-class friends, teachers, and experiences which is central to their everyday. Since you're in the classroom once a month you can remind her that you do know her world, and her daily schedule, in subtle everyday ways like asking what specific different friends did today, who got to be line leader, who wrote their name the smallest or the silliest on the sign-in sheet, what did so-and-so choose to draw for a project, who got to feed the guinea pig today, etc, etc, little details that show you care and understand the context of her routines, that open up conversation. I don't know if she's in 5-day preschool or if her school days match those on which you have work flexibility. But if so, perhaps you could set aside one morning a week to take her out to breakfast then do her school dropoff yourself, a just-mommy time that connects to her day and lets her show you off (which is a natural impulse!) --- though I wonder, is her dropoff actually at the classroom, where you could admire art on the walls before dropping off, say a quick hi to teachers, friends, etc, or is it just a carpool dropoff anyway (I'm also an Atlanta mom and professor - not Ga Tech; my eldest's preschool was a classroom-door dropoff and pickup; my youngest's was a carpool line drop-off/pickup for all kids 3 and up, with kids walking from the car line-up to the school building/classrooms on their own, teachers supervising, parents/sitters driving off). If it's just a carpool drop-off/pickup you can reassure yourself that missing it has little impact on your 'school presence' . . . If your dd's not a morning person, you could do pick-up and lunch instead one day --- though I've personally found extricating myself from midday intrusions into their day a lot harder. With one dd, DH or I always did her noon-time preschool pickup to deliver her to our sitter, and at times extricating ourselves from that, especially extricating mom, was slow and clingy (but, her preschool was on our campus adjacent to our parking structure for work anyway, and we live only 1 mile from campus).

Which brings me to that life-sucking commute. Are you really attached to living out in Alpharetta? The few times I've had to go as far as even Sandy Springs for an errand remotely near rush hour I've thought life sucks sucks sucks trying to get there then get back in-town on totally jammed roads to make a longish trip to start with. Yes, the schools are good through high school. But there are many in-town family neighborhoods with strong elementary schools that would enable you to come back for occasional contact points during the day, school programs, parties, volunteering, etc. They are no pricier than Roswell/Alpharetta, though the houses and lots tend to be smaller, except for the huge infill houses that look just like they were plopped down from Roswell or Alpharetta. An intown neighborhood would also shave unpleasant wasted time from the beginning and end of your workday. The main issue, is you would leave middle school an unresolved issue, to see if you'd be happy with public/magnet options at that point, or then decide to go private or move back beyond the perimeter again. But you could buy yourself a lot more day-to-day time and easier daytime jaunts for kid events for many years . . . In my in-town department (for many years all-male but me) the professors who lived outside the perimeter were all very-low-contact dads, evenings and weekends only, and evenings barely a kid-touch before returning to the lab; the ones who lived inside the perimeter seemed much more involved with their kids. Both moms lived within 2 miles of the department.)

Have you considered neighborhoods like Morningside? Even my neighborhood - Druid Hills/Fernbank - has lots of Ga Tech and Ga State faculty and their commute's a lot less than it would be from Alpharetta!

Good luck on whatever adjustments you make. The logistical rebalancing issues you face vary by the semester, though, so while big-picture thinking may be useful, you may just need a little tweak for the next 3 months before everything changes again . . .

I am home with my kids all day every day and they still stick to me like velcro. I don't think it has anything to do with working. I think it is just that kids are naturally self-centered. They will suck you as dry as you will let them!!! Quite frankly, I think the best solution is to take them for a walk where they might see some homeless people and have them see how lucky they are to have a nice mommy who has a great job that allows them to have a roof, clothes, regular food, and time hanging out each day. Or maybe they could watch a tv show about famine in Africa. Seriously, I don't think we are doing our kids any favors by giving them all they want or "need". They are learning that the world revolves around them. I think they'll be a lot happier in the long run if what they learn is that there are millions of people who don't even get a square meal every day and who literally die of hunger, and that they are ridiculously lucky for what they have and stop asking for more more more. And I include time with you in the idea of an unnecessary "more". Those starving moms and kids in Africa would be more than happy to be apart for a few hours if it meant food on the table!!

"This statement reminded me of when my husband and I first met. We felt as if we couldn't get enough of each other- we ate, slept, breathed for each other. We were madly and deeply, without reservations, in love. And so are our kids. They love us completely and totally- no amount of time will ever be enough for them. It's incredibly sweet and so pure that of course it hurts us to deny them what they, in their little hearts and souls, need on just a very base level. "

That was so sweet SAHMBacktowork.

One of the Mommy Wars contributors titled her essay "Mother Superior" and one of the main points of her piece was that some children simply need THEIR MOTHER. Yes, they need their dad too. But some kids, some times, need more from both parents. It doesn't mean that a SAHD isn't good enough.

I think the fact that Susan is so in touch with her children is a sign that she is a good mom. I don't have any solutions, but I think the fact that she is sensitive to their needs is the most important part.

I am sure her kids sense that, and it probably makes them feel very well cared for, regardless of whether Susan makes any changes to her schedule.

Why does this blog have a link to the "On Parenting" one but there's no link back to here from over there?

Funny memory from my geeklet days:

Me: Mommy, I don't want to go to the babysitter's today! (The "babysitter" was the family-style daycare I went to a few afternoons a week after my morning kindergarten.)

Mom: You always say that, but then whenever I come to pick you up, you always say you don't want to leave!

I realized that it was true- an early lesson in the inconsistency of human behavior, including my own.

To those talking about the issues around Dr. Burns' job.

Dr. Burns does apparently have a research group of her own, and publishes frequently. The department in which she works stresses its research groups and achievements. While she hasn't said so, it is likely she faces an enormous amount of pressure to publish.

As a former geologist (though I didn't specialize in her field), Geology publishing takes time. There is field work and lab work and computer modeling in her field, and that's around the teaching responsibilities she must have (which probably includes a few weekend field trips each semester).

It may or may not take any more time than any other scientific specialty, but it still takes an enormous amount of time (even with graduate students to help you out). Being a scientist is hardly a 9 to 5 job, especially in academia.

As for you Dr. Burns - I agree with the other folks here: your children are probably manipulating you. So what if her fellow day care students don't know what her Mommy looks like - they probably know what her Daddy looks like. And I'm willing to wager that at least one of the Daddy's they don't see may work somewhere on campus with you.

My father was a doctor - we rarely saw him when my siblings and I were your kids apparent age - when he wasn't working he was moonlighting extra shifts. I can remember spans of time when I didn't see my father for days because he came home after I went to bed and left before I got up. It's part of being a parent - doing what you can to support your family. If that means a swapping of traditional gender roles, so be it. I'm sure your husband is a great parent.

You seem to make an effort to be involved despite what must be an incredibly hectic schedule. Give yourself a break. It sounds like your kids have parents who care immensely about their effect on them and that's more than many children have.

To Fairfax:

Old joke. Very old joke.

John, I know. It wasn't funny... at least not until you said that! ;-)

Looks like the jokes are spilling over from yesterday.

Yesterday was Joke Day. Today is Back-on-Topic Day. :)

To Librarianmom, who wrote: "I'm sure her tenure was hard-won... But if she could perhaps switch to teaching at a college closer to home or perhaps some online courses?"

You're freakin' kidding??? Dr. Barnes would likely NEVER be able to return to a full-time tenured position again in her entire career after dealing it a death-blow like that, certainly not in a field like Engineering.

Tenure is recognized under law as PROPERTY which a faculty member has earned. It is a legal right, and is specific to the faculty member's institution (in fact, often to the individual school or department). For anyone to leave a tenured position is tantamount to throwing away a valuable piece of property, and under most circumstances would be highly irresponsible to herself and her family, because it's one of the most essential parts of her and their economic security.

Nowhere does Dr. Barnes indicate that her husband objects to her career arc, and he was presumably at minimum supportive of her and her career at previous stages, including most likely while she was earning her tenure (if not even earlier).

Plus, the sorts of jobs that Librarianmom describes pay so much less than a tenured faculty position at a major university like Georgia Tech that if Dr. Barnes traded down for one of them, her husband would need to become the family's primary earner, and relinquish much of his parenting time. I.e., the parents would simply wind up more or less swapping roles, not gaining any significant extra time with their children.

I second Dotted's point out that nowadays college faculty can handle certain responsibilities electronically (i.e., by email) that once had to be performed in person on campus.

I also agree with the poster who suggested that the Barneses research moving closer to campus in order to reduce her commute, even if it means sacrificing some house size in return for an extra of couple hours (and concomitantly less stress) each workday.

Finally, I suggest you just chalk up that little crack about wondering what you look like to sheer snarkiness by someone else, whom your daughter was parroting. You didn't get this far in your career by having an overly thin skin, so don't let this little item get you down. It sounds like your daughter is just trying to "guilt" you, so remember, you're the parent, and have the authority to set her straight, so do it!

Oops! Dr. BURNS -- my error. I apologize.

Off-topic:

dotted: I fill out 2 brackets each year, one safe, one risk-taking. What I deem the safe one has Florida, Georgetown, Ohio State and Pitt.

This is a really interesting set of blog comments for me. I'd like to hear her husband's analysis of what's happening because I would think he'd be her champion.

Where does a five year old learn about guilt trips? Home or school?

Catlady,

Are you married and/or have any kids?

Off-topic:

dotted: I fill out 2 brackets each year, one safe, one risk-taking. What I deem the safe one has Florida, Georgetown, Ohio State and Pitt. If 2 out of 7 ACC teams make it to the Sweet 16, I'll be surprised. I haven't yet completed the upset-laden bracket.

This is a really interesting set of blog comments for me. I'd like to hear Susan's husband's analysis of what's happening in their household. I would think he'd be the best source for shoring up her confidence and being her best advocate with their kids.

"are all kids insatiable like this or do folks think it's a more common issue for working parents, and possibly more often working moms? Or, is it just my kids?"

Great comments today in response to Susan's issues. Yes, yes, yes, they're all like velcro!! And siblings, of course, definitely feed off of each other. Sometimes my twins nearly killed me with their "needs".

When someone in the office suggested that I might want to work some hours from home (this was when the kids were still real little) I pictured it something like this -- ok, I'd rise before they did, then lock myself in my home office with enough food to last me until I could get the work done, which I would do verrry quietly, and oh yes, I take a jar to pee in because if they had any idea that I was home, that would be the end of my quiet time. No matter who else might be there to meet their needs, they would still have wanted it to be all mommy, all the time. As my sister (4 kids) used to sometimes say -- "I'm going to work today to get some rest."

Susan - we have very similar situations. The only difference being that I don't work insane hours. Usually 40-45 hours a week. However, I have NO GUILT about my family situation. Somebody has to work, that's life, bills need to be paid. I feel very grateful that I have a flexible job that pays well enough for my husband to stay home with our two kids. Sure, I would love to spend more time with my kids but I make sure that any time I am with them they have my undivided attention. My husband is a wonderful father and I never worry about my kids during the day.

I think that many people work excess hours because they believe it is expected or it is what everyone else is doing. My boss knows that I will get my work done, do it well, but that I am not putting in 70 hour weeks. He is fine with that. I am lucky that my industry is constantly in need of talented people so I don't fear for job security.

I guess what it boils down to is you should own your decisions. My husband & I have made the best situation we can for our family. That is all you can do.

Oh yeah, and the kid will be fine. Whether or not you can volunteer at the preschool is completely insignificant in the big picture welfare of your child. Having partents that are secure, happy, there for them. These are the biggies...

To John Q: Rest assured I know more about academia than you do.

Fairfax, hilarious story. I laughed out loud.

I second the idea of moving. I have zero commute (work at home) and it's added a lot to us as a family. DH has a 10-minute commute. It's worth it to move closer if you can.

I am just curious but does a professor in Dr. Burns situation make a lot of money? It seems like an awful lot of work. When I was in grad school, in statistics, at a big state university, it did not seem as if the professors made that much money. Or maybe they were just cheap.

I am just curious but does a professor in Dr. Burns situation make a lot of money? It seems like an awful lot of work. When I was in grad school, in statistics, at a big state university, it did not seem as if the professors made that much money. Or maybe they were just cheap.

To John Q: To expect Dr. Burns to trade down to teaching at a college closer to home (where at best she would have to earn tenure all over again, and probably would earn far less) or perhaps teach "some" online courses is economically an even more devastating notion than suggesting, e.g., that she give away her house. Most people would never propose that, yet Librarianmom suggests that she consider discarding her most valuable piece of property. Just not realistic.

Kids hate change. A move will mean a new preschool for her daughter, a new playground and new playmates for one if not both children. Moving may be the right solution for Susan's family, but it is not without downside risk, at least in the short term.

Speaking as a child of a professor, yes the hours are very long, and no it doesn't always have to do with tenure. My dad made tenure when I was pretty young and the hours just got longer. Being a professor is like two jobs - you have the hours of a teacher on top of those of a researcher. The perception of your job performance usually hinges on your publications, but at the end of the day you still have lesson plans to make up and work to grade. One compromise my father made as he realized his hours creeping up was to do more work at home - he'd disappear into the home office after dinner, but at least he was in the house if we needed to ask for homework help or just wanted to tell him something. He always came home for dinner, though, and every now and then he'd manage a whole day at home when he didn't have classes.

And I think the expectations for engineering professors are worse. My graduate advisor (aerospace engineering)always came in to work on Saturdays and Sundays. It was helpful for his students, but I felt bad for his family. He's the reason I stopped with my M.S. - I didn't want to buy into that kind of work life. I salute you, Susan, female engineering professors are like gold (I wish I'd ever had a single one) and I'm sure even if you don't realize it, you're making a difference for your students. But you might want to explore your options for being out of the office. I don't think anyone begrudged my dad or any of my professors the time they were out of the office, as long as they were clear about when they'd be back. Bonus points for checking e-mail, but not required.

But professors' kids usually turn out just fine, and we're usually very proud of our parents once we have a clue what they do (that takes a while). The resources and contacts at your disposal come in very handy as well (my dad always knew someone who could give the Boy Scouts an awesome tour or help with a merit badge).

I was not taking about Academia. And how could you possibly know that you know more than I do about that subject.

Academia is not as issue in this article. Parenting is. And while you don't have to have kids to have some basic knowledge on the subject (but it helps), you need to walk a mile or two in the shoes of a parent to understand the issues. You talk as if you are an expert on the subject.

"...you're the parent, and have the authority to set her straight, so do it!"

If you had kids, a career and a spouse, you would know that it's not that easy.

"But it is not enough. The kids clearly have needs that are not being fulfilled. When I get home in the evening, our children stick to me like Velcro."

They're smarter than you think. They know what they are doing and saying. They feed on this guilt and to a certain extent, you feed on your importance to them. It's only natural.

Catlady - FYI, as a daughter of an academic, most people are not really aware of the world of academia and how it is set up. So I don't think it is totally unreasonable that people would suggest a change in jobs.

Catlady,

I was not taking about Academia. And how could you possibly know that you know more than I do about that subject.

Academia is not as issue in this article. Parenting is. And while you don't have to have kids to have some basic knowledge on the subject (but it helps), you need to walk a mile or two in the shoes of a parent to understand the issues. You talk as if you are an expert on the subject.

"...you're the parent, and have the authority to set her straight, so do it!"

If you had kids, a career and a spouse, you would know that it's not that easy.

To Foamgnome, who asks whether Dr. Burns makes a lot of money.

Good question! I'd answer by asking, a lot compared to what? Compared to, say, an investment banker: probably not. Compared to an engineer out in the field: probably not (plus she might need to be away from home a lot more).

But compared to Engineering professors in Dr. Burns's field at other colleges and universities: probably yes. The number of universities that would pay her substantially more is going to be pretty small, because Georgia Tech is a preeminent institution. Her best bet career-wise would be to continue working productively and gain a promotion to Full Professor. Plus, there's nothing to suggest that Dr. Burns doesn't find her career unfulfilling.

Kids hate change.

Now ain't that the tail wagging the dog.

foamgnome, professor salaries are all over the map, but practically all of them make less than they could be making in industry somewhere and they usually (especially state universities) have an awful problem with salary compression. They tend to stay in the same place for long careers and raises don't keep pace with competition. By the time my dad left the university he'd been there 25 years and new hires were getting paid about what he was. It was always enough to live on, no complaints there, but it was demoralizing and our family's effective buying power did go down some years when they didn't even get cost of living raises. There are reasons that these 80-year-old emeritus professors are still hanging around campus teaching and serving on graduate committees - some just don't know what else to do with themselves, but a lot can't really afford to retire anyway. For comparison, when my dad moved from a university to a nonprofit he got a salary increase of about 40%.

"...you're the parent, and have the authority to set her straight, so do it!"

If you had kids, a career and a spouse, you would know that it's not that easy.

Posted by: John Q | March 13, 2007 09:50 AM

If you have kids, then it's a shame that you can't explain such basic things to me.

Frieda has seen and spoke at length to woman in all income levels, stay at homes, work at homes, work PT, work FT, stay at home then go back to work etc. A lot of times she seems to be more a social worker that a BF consultant! (Interesting side note, she does see a lot of dads come with the mother and ask pertinent questions.)

The one consistent pattern she sees is guilt. No matter what, we seem never to do enough for our children. (Gee, I even have a bit myself).

Susan, Leslie and the rest of us just need to give ourselves permission for not being perfect and realize that one event, comment or occurrence will not ruin our child for life.

I have done things when my daughters were teenagers that I was told was the most horrible thing a person could do, that they could not survive without. If you were to ask my daughters now, they would not remember or would say, dad, your were right or dad, we were just seeing how much we could do.

As more than a few poster have pointed out, it may just be an innocent question. Lighten up on yourself.

OOPS! Typo (Obviously I don't teach typing!). Previous post should've read:

If you have kids, then it's a shame that you can't explain such basic things to THEM.

As a former teenage girl, I can second what I think Fred was saying. The world was going to end if I didn't get the blue ski jacket - period. There was no talking me down off the ledge. My parents were horrible, they hated me, all my friends would laugh at me and shun me.
Guess what - none of that happened. What seems important at the time and the guilt that the parent feels can be so easily and quickly forgotten by the child.
And I am not talking about big stuff here, ok. Just extra wants, not needs. I already had a perfectly good coat - I just wanted the blue ski jacket.

Many Universities will now allow you to carry over tenure if you have been in one place long enough. I know my father has moved to a number of different Universities over the past ten years and was able to go in as a tenured professor. That may be a new bargaining chip for good engineers. If Dr. Burns has published that much, she may be able to carry over tenure, especially if she brings money, I mean research, with her.

Kids learn the guilt trip thing very early. My DS has known how to do it with his mother since he was two. But he has it easier with her, she's Catholic.

"you're the parent, and have the authority to set her straight, so do it!"

John Q, I am a parent, have a spouse, two kids and two jobs, and I agree with catlady that it is just that simple. We started explaining the connection between working, shelter, food, and hot and cold running water almost as soon as our kids began to ask, "Why do you have to go to work?" To this day when one says, "I don't want to go to school today", we as often as not respond, "I don't want to go to work today either, but that's what we need to do today for our family."

I think most of you above make really good points. There are ways that Susan can make adjustments to her life to ease her stress--which seems to eminate most from the long commute.

With regard to clinginess--every child has their own unique temprament. Some are more "needy" than others, some are more physically affectionate than others. However there are things that we can do as parents to help make them feel secure and therefore less "needy". Children tend to be less clingy if 1) they feel secure with their parents love/approval and 2) they know they can't get away with manipulation. Of course there are extremes of normal, but most children are teachable.

My two children tended to be on the independent side. Both seem very secure. One is more independent than the other and I could never imagine him saying the manipulative things the 5 year old in the blog said. My other child on the other hand went through a phase (age 5-7) where she made all kinds of comments like that but I nipped it in the bud. It's tough but you have to let them know you love them and enjoy spending time with them, but not let them get away with dominating you (getting in your bed at night, waking you up at 4 AM to play, whining, etc.)

And I think the teenage pushing parents away is the most common scenario. My son shows affection in other than physical ways. I recall when he was about 8, he declared that I was to never again kiss him in public. I told him that he was right. He was getting to be a big boy and he didn't need kisses anymore. He immediately said "I didn't say you couldn't kiss me in private". So cute. He'll hug me if no one else is around but I know not to even acknowledge his existence around other kids his age--it's just not cool :-)

My sister is an example of someone who is not handling a child's insecurities properly in my opinion. She has a 9 year old daughter who will not sleep over anyone else's home (not even a relative) and frequently crawls into bed with her parents. I invited her to sleep over with us--my daughter is the same age and LOVES sleepovers, but she wouldn't consider it. In fact, my daughter went over to her house and my niece slept in her parents room! It's none of my business so I didn't say anything but I would never allow that--the girl is NINE!!! Sometimes we do this to ourselves.

Working dad,
"Kids learn the guilt trip thing very early. My DS has known how to do it with his mother since he was two"

If there was no guilt trip do you think it would be easier for parents? Do the parents feed into the guilt trip?

Hi Susan,
I'd guess that anyone who writes an article in the language you used is YEARNING to resettle their priorities into a different order, but is STRUGGLING with feelings of guilt at the idea of change.

Perhaps the guilt feelings come from the notion of "giving up" career and intellectual opportunities that some of their peers would feel lucky to have.

Or perhaps the guilt feelings come from the notion of "wasting" the years of education that they themselves have consumed.

Or perhaps the guilt feelings come from the disdain their colleagues reserve for peers who do not place their subspecialty at the highest priority over all other aspects of life.

One solution might be to shuck off some of the work responsibilities, thus giving the priorities the massive shake-up that you intuitively feel is right, and get some perspective on the guilt feelings.

Is that education wasted if it puts one more quantitatively-trained, rational American into the mainstream social network? I'd say, no. Education is not only for a career to consume. It is for the good of the whole society.

Are those career opportunities wasted? No, not if they aren't what you really want.

How about the disdain from colleagues? Well, aren't they the ones who don't have the bigger picture? Certainly from the point of view of a narrow academic community, anyone who cuts back is a "traitor"... but that serves the narrow subspecialty, not you.

Hope these ideas are useful... I'm struggling with some of the same issues, so these things have already been on my mind. I could be projecting. :)

I agree with most about the 'comment' from the authors daughter. It was probably just a statement - I'm not even sure I believe it was said meanly. She goes to the preschool on occasion, so she's not a stranger to the place. I might even suggest that the daughter finds that a special visit, rather than the norm, and appreciates it better. My dd asked the same thing of me when she went to kindergarten. There were room moms that came in a couple times a week to help out. She wondered when I was going to come in. So, I called the teacher and set a date. I only did it once, but she was clearly excited, and the other kids still remember that one time. I've seen them outside of school and they know me as 'dd's mom who came in that time'.

The advice suggesting that the writer bring her children to see where she works and to spend some time there (if this has not been done already) is good. I am an assistant professor at a large university -- while I have flexible hours, I also have many work committments and sometimes work long hours. As a single parent, I don't have much choice in the matter -- I work or I don't have any money. In any case, my kids have spent time with me at work -- sometimes by choice, sometimes by necessity. They have attended meetings, classes, and have spent time kicking around the office suite drawing on the chalkboard. I think they know what I do and they are proud of me -- they are very pleased when students greet me as "professor" on campus and are thrilled that I have basketball players from the school team in some classes. I don't have all the time in the world for them, but they know I am crazy about them and proud of them -- and they return the sentiment. We value the time we have together. Don't worry about your kids -- they will turn out just fine!

To Working Dad, who wrote: "Many Universities will now allow you to carry over tenure if you have been in one place long enough. I know my father has moved to a number of different Universities over the past ten years and was able to go in as a tenured professor. That may be a new bargaining chip for good engineers. If Dr. Burns has published that much, she may be able to carry over tenure, especially if she brings money, I mean research, with her."

Good point, Working Dad. But, sometimes when a tenured faculty member leaves for a position at another institution, there's a probationary period of a year or more before the new school grants tenure (unless one goes in as, say, a dean).

But the problem for Dr. Burns is that there probably isn't an engineering school of comparable quality that's significantly closer to her present home than Georgia Tech. My point was that, by definition, there aren't that many top-notch schools/programs in the entire nation.

Depending on your father's field and where he lived, he may have had to move to other parts of the country in order to change positions as you describe (a professor of English or History living, e.g., in NYC or LA might not need to move, however). Did Dr. Burns say she would consider leaving Georgia Tech?

Move closer. Problem solved.

Megan's Neighbor,

"just do it" works in sports, not in parenting. It's a little more complex than just doing it.

You had to establish what "working" was before you could use it as ammunition.

I've been a single parent for 16 years. It 's a little more than "just doing it".

I would think that it would be pretty tough to find a comparable teaching/research position in Atlanta too. It seems she would have to make a major geographic move to find a university with as much prestige in engineering (I may be missing something as I don't have deep knowledge of either engineering or universities near Atlanta). If the killer commute can be eliminated, it seems that might be the way to go. I don't think moving a pre-schooler is such a big deal. Susan didn't say how many other children she has (and what ages) unless I missed that in a later comment. Even older kids can be pretty adaptable. I wouldn't say "never uproot the kids." That element is only one part of the big picture.

It certainly sounds like her children are well-cared-for; it sounds like Susan is wearing herself out though.

A question for those with more experience in academic careers: once a prof. earns tenure, does that plant permanent roots until retirement? If a tenured faculty member changes university, is there a fast-track to tenure at the new institution? Of course, Susan may not want to leave Ga. Tech even if that is an option. She may not want to leave metro Atlanta either.

Hey, susan, move into the city and you can have almost no commute. There are some schools in the city that are fabulous. Yes property values are sky rocketing, but really, how much are you spending on gas (fess up) and you can still find some nice houses, anyway.. We love living in the city-both of us have ten to fifteen min commutes. It makes for such a nicer lifestyle.

To Another Librarianmom: Dr. Burns says her children are 5 (in pre-school) and 2 years old. So if the Burnses move to a home nearer the Georgia Tech campus, her kids would probably not yet suffer from as much uprooting as older ones might. And, when the time for school comes, the Burnses might want to explore whether Ga. Tech (or Ga. State, or any other colleges in Atlanta) has a lab school on campus that their children could attend (especially if they decide to move closer to campus).

I salute John Q in his capacity as a single parent, because it's a demanding job. I assume that, as Megan's Neighbor pointed out, at some point John Q was able to explain convincingly to his child(ren) about the importance to their family of his working.

I've always wanted to be Dr. Scarry, but I think I may be re-thinking my position.

Do you have to do a lot of research if you teach at a teaching school? I really don't want to do a ton of research, but I really would like to teach.

Atlmom ---

If it's not too probing, what neighborhood are you in? We're in Druid Hills/Decatur - Fernbank school district. Would not trade an under-5 mile commute, and close kid-activities, without substantial duress . . .

KLB SS MD:

Absolutely, parents feed into it when they give in to the guilt. I am very proud of my wife. Yesterday she resisted the urge to buy more educational toys that my son doesn't need. She knows she'll feel guilty if he doesn't get into Harvard in fifteen years.

"Our daughter says things like, "The kids at preschool wanted to know what you look like," which clearly caused her some pain."

I have a hard time imagining a pre-school-aged child saying this. Sounds like it's been reformulated by an adult.

Move closer. Problem solved.

Posted by: Ryan | March 13, 2007 10:11 AM

Life ain't that simple!

Susan, you mentioned that you love teaching, but didn't mention that you love research. Could have been space limitations, or, it could be that teaching is your real love and joy, can't tell from a short blog post. But on the assumption that it is the latter:

What about seeking a job at a teaching college? With your credentials you should be able to negotiate a good deal. And obviously you would have a much more relaxed schedule.

A relative of mine obtained a civil engineering degree from a community college after some personal struggles in the post-high-school years, and the education and job opportunities made all the difference to his life.

So I am not totally unbiased here. But still, there is as much opportunity for you to make a difference in young people's lives outside the high-powered research university network as in. Maybe even more.

Move closer. Problem solved.

Posted by: Ryan | March 13, 2007 10:11 AM

Life ain't that simple!

Posted by: | March 13, 2007 10:27 AM

life ain't that simple, but it's not impossible either. It would take careful thought to move, but still could be worht the effort.

Thank you to all of those part-time or stay-at-home moms who stepped up to reassure the full-time+ working moms that many kids are like this, regardless of the hours you spend with them!!! You have really made me feel better today. :) I will try to keep a better perspective when my son makes comments or acts clingy and remember what you've said here today.

I think that the Georgia Tech fight song says it all why Susan will stay there!

"I'm a Ramblin' Wreck From Georgia Tech and a hell of an engineer.
A helluva helluva helluva helluva helluvan engineer."

BTW, my late FIL went to Georgia so I did not quote the whole song! He always had an offspring of Uga as a pet.

Dear Susan,

Ditch the commute. Your life will instantly be 1000% better. The only risk is that you will be tempted to "pop over to the lab for five minutes" which is something you can't do right now.

We live in Tucker (near the NE intersection of 85 and 285) in DeKalb County, and we love the area. The schools are good, the houses are affordable, and it's a 15-minute commute to Georgia Tech (and just about everywhere else). Is moving a possibility?

Ryan's simplistic thinking aside, moving doesn't solve the problem of Susan's guilt or concern or evident struggle with the choices her family has made. So what if she leaves the house at 5:30 before the kids are up, or 4:30 before the kids are up. Moving doesn't make her daughter any less clingy.

No one knows how Susan's husband feels about their neighborhood. The person spending the majority of time taking care of the kids during the daytime hours should have the larger say about whether the neighborhood in which they live meets HIS needs - does he have friends in the neighborhood? Are there back-up babysitters/SAHparents in the neighborhood that assist him when he's sick or in a bind. Is there a convenient lake or playground nearby that makes the hours with their son more easily passed? Who are we to assume that a downtown neighborhood will work as well for him as the SAHD, even if it cuts down on Susan's commute.

I'm with moxiemom -- when my husband comes home, my son goes nuts! He doesn't want DH to put him down. Susan, I think it has a lot to do with the one who's gone -- the kids see your husband more during the day, so they get excited and clingy when you get home. You're NOT short-changing them by working so hard. And to the comment about letting your kids see where you work -- that's definitely something to consider. Maybe it will then give them a mental picture to have when they think of you during the day.

I assume you're doing this job because you see a reward (and more manageable hours) at the end of the tunnel. Self-doubt seems to be par for the course with parenthood (for many people). I frankly appreciate it when people admit to it! Thanks for your post.

To anonymous at 10:31 who wrote: "What about seeking a job at a teaching college?"

As I read it, the Burnses made the decision that the husband would be a SAHF, and the wife the main (sole?) bread-winner. Jobs at teaching colleges pay substantially less. And just because Dr. Burns loves teaching -- which is wholly admirable -- doesn't mean she necessarily loves research any less; after all, her graduate education trained her to be a researcher, and she has been at a research university for 10 years already, which it could be reasonably assumed is what she wants.

So, if Dr. Burns were to follow your suggestion, either the Burnses would have to live on significantly less income (or save a lot less for their children's education and their own retirement), or else her husband would need to rejoin the work force instead of SAH in order to make up for her loss in salary. But Dr. Burns doesn't indicate that either of them thinks her husband should return to the job market yet. Plus, if she trades down to a teaching college, most likely she would never be able to return to a research institution later in her career, if she wanted.

Thank you 10:39 for expanding on what should be obvious.

As cotopaxi points out a quick trip to the lab for 5 minutes can easily turn into 5 hours.

I have driven around Ga. Tech and my impression of the immediate neighborhood is that is is not a desirable place to be after dark. (might be wrong here but still my impression)

A question for those with more experience in academic careers: once a prof. earns tenure, does that plant permanent roots until retirement?
- Frequently, but not always.

If a tenured faculty member changes university, is there a fast-track to tenure at the new institution?
- A big it depends. Famous folks can hop jobs at will - Princeton/Harvard/Yale/Duke etc. seem to enjoy stealing big names from one another... For a more normal person it is easier to move down the ladder than up. If you work at a teaching college you don't hear about people jumping to research universities.
- At my (teaching) college they have might have hired 1 person with tenure (though I don't remember any) in the past 5 years, but everyone else was hired without tenure. It was actually more common in my grad department (see above note).

Most engineering colleges are research outfits - you may be required to publish less elsewhere but you will also have fewer resources, fewer grad students... In CS you can get a job in small college, but that is harder in other engineering disciplines.

The maxim for academia is "Publish or Perish"

Anonymous at 10:39 wrote: "The person spending the majority of time taking care of the kids during the daytime hours should have the larger say about whether the neighborhood in which they live meets HIS needs - does he have friends in the neighborhood? Are there back-up babysitters/SAHparents in the neighborhood that assist him when he's sick or in a bind."

I'm guessing that Mr. Burns