Stroller Dad worked hard to find a position close to home when we moved back here to counterbalance my commute. He does the daycare drop off. He was the one who found good care each time our sitter quit (once when I was half way around the world with no way to do a thing about it). He's very involved in the daycare process. But I'm biased (I know he's wonderful) and I let him do what he does best.

Good points, Brian. I think I was too harsh on Monday by doing precisely what you say -- highlighting the failures of the 'lunkheads' instead of the great things other dads do.

In the past five years, several male colleagues at the Washington Post took paternity leave, for the first time (I believe). They were top managers in the department. Two took a month off each, the others a few weeks. Their groups did just fine in their absence and truly, it was insignificant from a work perspective that they were gone for a relatively short time. At least two were promoted within a year of the paternity leave. These men are vanguards. I hope more men take advantage of paternity leave policies.

At my kids' schools, dads are frequent droppers off and pickers up. There are at least a few SAHDs as well. I need to underscore that this is still far from "equal" to what moms do, overall. But Brian is right -- this is huge progress within a generation of dads, and it does far more good to shine a spotlight on the fact that many dads are contributing more and more to childcare and other work/family balance issues.

While I agree that fathers are becoming more involved with their kid's lives and that it is a generational thing, I think Leslie's original point that childcare is still thought of as a woman's issue is right.

Men who take paternity leave or need to leave early for a child's event are thought of as a great dads. A woman who does this is not a team player or somehow not as worthy as her male counterparts in the eyes of colleagues or bosses. There still is this double standard--the expectation that women will be taking care of the kid's issues while the dad is the hero for doing what he should be doing to begin with.

My husband used to work at one of the largest sweatshops...uh I mean lawfirms and 14 years ago took a one month paternity leave after our child was born. It was a benefit was offered by the firm, but no one ever used. He was showered with all kinds of comments (awww...you're such a great father, etc.). But this same firm rarely if ever promoted women who had children (my husbands comment). It's a complicated issue, but in my field I've lived the double standard. I've heard the comments about women with children. My favorite ones were the supervisors who criticized women for taking the whole 12 weeks of leave. And the guys who become fathers get pats on the back.

Fortunately, I am married to somehow who considers me a partner and equal with regard to childcare responsibilities. I still think our situation is alas, not as common as it should be. Until we turn over the whole generation of males (and some females) who are in leadership positions and attitudes change, men and women will not be treated as equals in the workplace.

"Almost six years ago, I was one of the first men (if not the first) in my company to take advantage of a newly instituted paid paternity leave policy. As word got out, I began to get calls, first from guys"

Brian

The newly instituted paid paternity leave policy in your company was created solely to get your boring ass out of the office and give your co-workers a break.

Stop patting yourself on the back and looking for a brass band.

I know its been mentioned before, but does anyone think that women are (in general) more involved in being care givers because they don't trust that their husbands/boyfriends/child's father will do it right?

I do not mean single parents - who of course have no choice - but those whose children's father are present - but "oh he lets the children do anything they want so I have to step in"...

I ask, because I don't have children yet, but have noticed in other areas of my life where my husband was not uber responsible I stepped in to take charge - and now by default find that every single critical thing in our life is now my responsibility.

So I'm learning. I turn tasks over to him and when he asks "how" something should be done - I say "within the boundaries of the law and safety - make it happen".

I don't criticize that I would have done it differently, more efficiently (I would have - but I bite my tongue)..

And I know if we have children, the same thing would happen - unless I actively put it in his lap and make him "default responsible" for things..

Just thinking...

Brain - Women at work frequently interview other mothers to see how they structured their maternity leave, so I don't think it is a big surprise that you got phone calls from dads wanting information. It is easier to build on someone else's experience. Some men are just "untrained" in the whole paternity leave/daycare situation (heck, some women too!) and admitting they have no point of reference is the first step to resolving the issues.

Also, thanks for pointing out that the Nation peice was "not enitely on-base," you are being honest with that statement.

I have a brother-in-law who was a stay at home dad for 3 years. He got the most flack from, of all people, his mother. She just could not understand why her son would "waste his degree" and let his wife "take over their lives." My MIL is very traditional, and I am sure if it was her daughter, rather than her son, it wouldn't have been an issue.

Happy International Womens' Day to all!

So many people choose mates without talking about this kind of thing! Shame on them. My husband knew I was an 'independant' type of woman and claims that's why he married me. He knew I would never be a 'stay at home mom" and he wasn't surprised when I first brought up starting my own company 12 years ago when our oldest daughter was 6 months old.

Our children have always been OURS even though we have traded off who was covering the kids at different times. When we are planning night-time events, we say we need to "Coordinate schedules" not "Ask my spouse". It is all in how you look at it.

To Michigan: My husband recommends that all new fathers take some time off after their baby is born to 'bond'. It is important that this is done when no one else is around to help - no mothers, sisters, or nannies. You have to give him the chance to learn (you should have seen my daughter the first time my husband did her pony tail!) and the feeling that it truly is, his resonsibility too. Also assume that he doesn't want to hurt or neglect his child. If you expect him to do the right thing, he will!

"does anyone think that women are (in general) more involved in being care givers because they don't trust that their husbands/boyfriends/child's father will do it right?"

Of course. It's called gatekeeping, and women do it all the time. "No, you're doing it wrong! Here, I'll just do it myself."

Brian, I applaud your efforts. It's super important for more men to take advantage of the earned paternity leave to show that it's normal, and to give their wives a chance to get back to work!

However, you're kind of preaching to the converted here on the blog. I think it's safe to say that the majority of men on the blog are interested in taking an active role in raising their kids. And I think the majority of moms on the blog are also interested in having more men do the same. So today are we supposed to sit around patting each others' backs?

I think it is very important to positively reinforce the men who are fighting to spend more time with their kids (Proud Papa, Texas Dad of 2, Father of 4, and others, thanks!!!), but maybe we'd be better served on this blog if we talk about how to encourage other men to become better dads instead of just telling stories about how great we or our spouses are.

But I have no idea how to have a constructive conversation about that issue (I don't write the blog, I only critique it!).

Michigan, I think some women do take over the child care because they don't think their husbands will do it right. I did. When my daughter was born she was one of those infants that cried from 6pm until she finally dropped sometime around 11pm. I was on maternity leave, nursing and exhausted so would hand her over to my husband after dinner and to get a little sleep upstairs (8-11). He'd bring her up to me to nurse her and take her back down. Over time I started coming down to get her earlier and earlier because I didn't trust that he was doing everything he could to comfort her. I felt I knew her better because I was home with her all day and she would respond better to me.

It was a huge mistake. It was a self-fulfilling prophecy. Because I would take over, my daughter did begin to respond better to me. It would have been better for her to learn to deal with different styles of comforting. It also caused a rift with me and my husband that I think still plagues our marriage - 7 years later; although my husband swears he's over it. I've apologized for it many, many times; we've discussed it a lot and have tried to make adjustments.

If you are noticing that you are doing this in areas in your marriage now, when you are childless, my advice is get your radar up and try to stop. Your children will benefit so much from having both parents involved as equally as possible in their lives, and so will you.

For us now, it's our work schedules that primarily dictate involvement. I work part-time and my husband works a 50-hour week, so I'm the one around to deal with the childcare on the day-to-day basis. But, whenever we've chosen a daycare, preschool or babysitter for our kids, it's been a joint decision. Usually the one with the stronger feelings gets the vote. When we first put my daugher in daycare my husband very strongly preferred one center over the one sponsored by my employer (which had a lot of conveniences for me). We went with his choice. It was a great daycare center and I'm happy we went with his gut instinct that it was the right place.

Now, my younger child has some special needs and I felt having him home with a nanny and in a preschool at our synagogue would be better. My husband wanted to have him in daycare but I felt really strongly so this time we went with my choice.

I started out at a 14-hour day sweat shop law firm and the men took 2-3 weeks off and then quickly returned to the break-neck schedule. The women routinely took 4-6 months maternity leave and then never were on an equal level with the men again. It's why I left to work at gov't before I even had kids. I knew I wasn't going to be able to find balance at that kind of place. In many places, for men to be as involved as women in childcare is considered a faux pas.

The advantages of growing up an Army brat: the first rule of leadership learned from my father the First Sergeant was: if your organization can't survive without you, then you're a lousy leader. You've failed.

That's inspired by Leslie's comments about top managers taking off and their groups doing find without them. I've noticed in the corporate world, which often falls victim to the CEO-as-deity complex, this comes as a shock, but to me (and a lot of others) it's just the way things are supposed to work.

(One example Dad used to cite was this: in WWII, the life expectancy of a Marine 2nd Lieutenant in combat was 90 minutes. If his unit couldn't survive and carry on without him, well, that would count as a massive failure, to say the least.)

My office (state agency) has Family Leave (unpaid time off) available to either parent for births or adoptions. Many new fathers, if not all of them take at least part of the time they can take (I think it's 4 weeks unpaid, paid if they've got the vacation/sick leave saved up).

Many of them later stay involved with their children, dropping them off at daycares or restructuring their work hours to be available to leave early and pick up their children from schools/daycare.

My wife and I have already discussed this, and I have saved up literally months of sick/vacation time. When she has a baby, I intend to take full advantage of the available leave to both help her and get to know my child.

God, I can't stand Elaine.

I also think that this is true:

"Until we turn over the whole generation of males (and some females) who are in leadership positions and attitudes change, men and women will not be treated as equals in the workplace."

Posted by: | March 8, 2007 08:06 AM
That was mine.

I agree that it's attitudes that need to change, not just laws. Men need to assert their rights (and duties) as fathers to make it "normal" to be involved in all aspects of their children's lives. We just had #3 in October. My husband took off 2 weeks when the baby was born but then another month after my maternity leave ended. When he told his boss that he was going to do this (months before the baby was born, by the way), she was shocked. Partly because she didn't seem to know that he was allowed to do it. FMLA allows a new parent to take up to 12 weeks unpaid leave in the first YEAR after the child is born. My husband, in doing his part to raise consciousness, specifically stated that he was on paternity leave (both times) in his e-mail autoreply and voicemail.

And you give me a pain, Elaine.

When any of his kids would get on a high horse about being so important ("I just HAVE to go to this party") my dad would tell us to pull our hand out of a bucket of water and see how big a hole it made. Didn't really appreciate it at the time but he was right along with some of the previous posters today about the relative importance of one person - love Army Brat's post
"The advantages of growing up an Army brat: the first rule of leadership learned from my father the First Sergeant was: if your organization can't survive without you, then you're a lousy leader. You've failed."

Leslie, you said: "In the past five years, several male colleagues at the Washington Post took paternity leave, for the first time (I believe). They were top managers in the department. Two took a month off each, the others a few weeks. Their groups did just fine in their absence and truly, it was insignificant from a work perspective that they were gone for a relatively short time. At least two were promoted within a year of the paternity leave. These men are vanguards. I hope more men take advantage of paternity leave policies."

I have also worked with men who've taken extended paternity leave without detriment to their careers. These men are viewed as heroes by the women they work with, and envied by their male colleagues.

I wish the same was true for women. With a few rare exceptions, I frequently see women being penalized professionally for having children (or even for getting pregnant, if they work for a small business). Granted, this may be a unique feature of my environment (legal), but I don't think so. I had a conversation with a friend (who happens to be a CIO at a large firm), and he was trying to figure out a way to fire one of his managers for leaving every day at 5:00 -- after working a 9-10 hour day -- to get her kids from daycare. He said he just felt she lacked commitment to the job. He had no problems with her performance, but the fact that she would get up a leave a late afternoon meeting to get her kids from daycare just didn't sit well with him -- even though she got in by 7 or 8 at the earliest, and was one of the first arrivals in the department.

klb-can I use your Dad's saying about the bucket of water? If anything, it will cause the teen to stop and think...he he he

Army Brat: good post. way too many people, including business people, sportsters, even mothers, and various subset intersections too numerous to mention, think they are too important to their 'organization.' Helps the ole ego.

08:57 - would your friend (the CIO) try to fire a man who left meetings to pick up children or didn't he say?

Although both my husband's office and mine offer paternity leave I don't know of a single male in either business who has ever taken advantage of it. I think for many men this is not on their radar screen and unless the HR people (or someone like Brian or a kindly woman) clue them in on it, they just don't know.

In our case, my husband is the morning dropper-offer. He is also the driver for most weekend child activities, I handle the weekday schedules.

With regard to women wanting to control what goes on in the home, I think that is right to a certain extent, but I don't complain when my husband regularly does the dishes, sweeps and mops floor and even though his folding skills are nonexistant, I never complain. I do though secretly refold my own clothes!

If you can't take care of them, don't have them. It amazes me that people panic and whine when they have a kid because they can't find adequate child care. Well, they should have thought about that nine months before. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

It's not that I completely disagree with you, but it does sound like you're asking women to be cheerleaders for men, for things that they don't get cheered for by men. It would be different if you were sending your message to other men, but telling women they should jump up and down and heap praises on you for doing what they do normally, and get taken for granted for and even punished for (career wise) just seems a little regressive. Men should step up because it's the right thing to do (and easier for them in many ways than for women), not because they'll get their egos bolstered by women's praises.

Shut UP, already. Seek life elsewhere.

I know plenty of men who don't take paternity leave or only take the first week for a very valid reason. Their wives do not have any leave left when they return to work, so the husbands are the parents who take off for sick child, well child dr appointments, car repairs, plumber visits, etc, for the next year or two so the wives can rebuild their own leave.

dotted,
My father was a wealth of little sayings like that - he would be glad to know that someone is using it - even if just to make a kid go "huh".

All my life I heard him tell us to "use your head for something other than a hat rack". I didn't get it until I joined the Army (probably where he got it too).

Right on Army Brat. In the Air Force they would have offices of 2 people where should have been 4 --do more with less!-- and tell you the same thing. If one of us got sick, we were sooooo screwed. Of course my MSgt and I both left the service at about the same time. The turnover had to really suck for the new folks. I did my best to make sure someone could follow my easy to read instructions, but that can only help so much...

Jeez, people sure are mean to one other. What in the world is the point of life except to join together and raise the next generation? How can such a fundamental thing be so often undermined?

Personally, a "friend" who tried to fire a person for lack of committment to the job because she needed to pick up her kids from day care each day would no longer be my friend, were I to learn of it.

In my opinion, she has demonstrated committment to the job over and above the call of duty just by putting her kids into day care in favor of working for me. The least I can do is make that separation as bearable as possible.

To clarify, that was my post at 8:57.

KLB -- I asked him about the male managers w/kids in the department, and the thing is, his male employees do the daycare dropoff and don't have to leave early to do the pickup.

The good news is, she left before he could fire her. But it was coming. He'd started to tighten the reins and scrutinize her every move to find fault. He was documenting: verbal/written warnings, etc.

I really don't understand why fathers don't take advantage of paternity leave policies. Don't they want to be involved in their children's lives at the very early stage? Or are they thinking this is what a wife is supposed to do, take care of the baby all by herself?

"telling women they should jump up and down and heap praises on you for doing what they do normally"
What, so do not praise progress? It seems contrary to logic! I bet you would find a reason to beat your dog for NOT pissing on the carpet... You know what? Let us not praise the men who stood up for women's rights because they were just doing what they should have been doing. Let us not praise heroes for risking their lives- they were just doing their jobs as humans. Hyperbole, yes- but along the same lines of philosophy. With such negativity you do more harm for your cause than good.

Posts are great today (so far)! Equal sharing is foremost a mindset (compass, principle). Not all workplaces and lives can accomodate the action part of equal sharing yet, but all of us can get to the mindset.

Brian is absolutely right that we can't get there by hitting the lunkhead dads over their lunk-heads. We have to build on positive role models and men will catch on that being an involved dad is worth the sacrifice for most.

There is a great special issue of American Prospect (www.prospect.org) just out this week called Motherload, and despite the title it has lots of info and stats on the increasing parental involvement of dads in this country. And in the table of contents, at the bottom, it lists a few blogs worth reading on the topic - among them are On Balance, Rebeldad, and (I'm so proud)...Equally Shared Parenting! Yeah!

Paternity Leave:

There is only so much a dude can get out of sitting around the house all day holding an infant. I credit the unique biological engeneering of women as to how they can enjoy it so much.

Yes, I was there to hold all our babies, but the main reason I took off work was to help out my wife and do stuff around the house. I do remember the time my wife got irritated at me for defrosting the downstairs freezer instead of bonding with the baby. Instinctively, it was just my way of taking care of the nest.

Maybe heaping praise isn't the right term. What would sound better?

I think some men in my field don't take advantage of paternity leave policies because they feel there would be backlash (e.g., no medically necessary reason, so why is it needed?). May be more perception than reality though as taking 3-4 weeks off has never seemed to hurt any of my male colleagues in the long run. I don't think women are hurt in their careers by taking 4-6 months off for maternity leave. Just the simple fact that we go ahead and have children is what kills our careers...

To join in on the conversation about praising people for doing a good job (whether it's being a good parent, or whatever).

Intermittant reinforcement is the BEST way to ensure continuation of a behaviour. If you constantly praise or reward someone for doing something, the behaviour will extinguish. But if your praise starts out as a regular occurence and then becomes less "reliable", then it is regarded as a finite resource and is valued as such.

Did you know that it only takes a pay-off 10 percent of the time to keep people pulling the lever on a slot machine? Talk about low odds.

So, yes, if someone is doing something new/special, give them rewards each and every single time at first...then spread it out. I mean, we don't continuously give our kids M&M's for using the toilet anymore, right? Hmm, not the image I was going for; at some point there are no little gold stars for doing what is supposed to be done regularly. Instead you earn something special, at some point in the future.

I don't think this is coming out quite right! I'm not trying to smack anyone for trying, or for those who have "always done" a specific job.

I think I need a cup of coffee!

WHY- OH WHY Are we talking about this AGAIN????? PLEASE pick a NEW TOPIC!!! MANY SUGGESTIONS have been made by posters- take our advice Leslie and Brian, and write about something, anything, other than this again. 2 blogs in the same week on the "care crisis"????

PLEASE PLEASE

Someone should do a poll on SAHDs. What motivates them to take the path they have etc... I think many men are fine-wired to be breadwinners and being a SAHD just does not enter into their thinking. This, though has nothing to do with how they feel about their families and children. All of the men in my life would have given and would give both arms and legs for their children & spouses.

"There is only so much a dude can get out of sitting around the house all day holding an infant. I credit the unique biological engeneering of women as to how they can enjoy it so much."

what a load of horse man****.

I heard about this on the radio this am - from ELLE magazine:
The gender gap is narrowing in part because men are getting better at listening and communicating, which are traditionally thought of as 'feminine' skills," says Janet Lever, PhD, a professor of sociology at California State University, Los Angeles, who helped conceive our survey. This year, more than 60,000 people rated their bosses, dished on their colleagues, and admitted they hold some retro notions about women in the workplace. "There are still many people with extremely negative attitudes toward female leaders," says Kim Elsesser, PhD, a research scholar at the UCLA Center for the Study of Women, who also helped with the survey. "But as they gain experience with female bosses, their attitudes seem to be changing." Alas, the majority of women in power feel they need to "work harder" or "be smarter" than their male counterparts to get as much respect; at the same time, men are irked by women who try too hard--a no-win situation for women, Elsesser says. Overall, women came out slightly ahead of men in job satisfaction, despite having lower average salaries. Who knew banging our heads on the glass ceiling could feel so good?--LILI TAN"

Oh, Father of 4- you must know that your comments will spark an outrage. Feeling saucy today?

"There is only so much a dude can get out of sitting around the house all day holding an infant. I credit the unique biological engeneering of women as to how they can enjoy it so much."

You are so wrong on that one, Fo4. Not all women love the baby part of child rearing. Don't get me wrong. I love my son and always have. I even thought he was exceptionally cute as a baby. But I do not adore staying home and holding an infant all day either. I did it for a few months, because it was the right thing to do and because I was nursing. And it was fine. But I never felt the need to just hold the baby all day. Now that my son is 7, I find I enjoy him a lot more than when he was a teeny weeny baby. We talk and discuss things. We read and play games together. He is my companion when I run errands. He cracks me up with his observations and comments about life. As far as I'm concerned, this beats the infant stage hands down.

Link to survey:
http://www.elle.com/featurefullstory/10909/work-power-survey-results.html

I have to admit that I didn't want to put my girl down. I didn't want to give her over to my husband either.

I don't really see anything wrong with what father of 4 said. Different people like to do different things.

I couldn't agree with you more, Emily. I would have gladly defrosted a freezer or done anything, really, that I could have done at my own pace in my own way when I was on maternity, rather than respond to the seemingly random, constant demands of a newborn day and night.

Sure, the wonderful moments of holding your infant or cuddling do come into the picture, but I have to admit that I found being a new mother of an infant 24/7 to be mostly hard, repetitive and boring work.

Scarry,
I agree that different people like to do different things. Some people are born baby nurturers. Some not. What I don't agree with is that all women are born baby nurturers because they are biologically engineered that way, and that men are better at taking care of the nest by fixing things, cleaning, working, etc. It depends on the individual man or woman, IMO.

I agree that Dads are more and more involved with child care these days. But sometimes, it's also about innate expectations.

My husband is a sweetheart of a man, but he has an incredible blind spot about the domestic part of life. When I moved in with him after we got engaged and set a date, it was if his knowledge of domestic skills immediately vaporized. This despite the fact that we're both IT professionals (how we met), and we both worked routine 55-60 hour weeks with NoVa to Downtown commutes.

Arguments aplenty.

We moved out of the DC area to an exurb of the Twin Cities 2 years ago due to a job transfer within his company. After we got settled and unpacked, I briefly tried the domestic life, found I was bored, and have now gone the entrepreneurial route and started my own business. And I keep having to explain to him that just because my office was formerly our dining room, it isn't any less work for me. I actually had to install sliding panels to make a "door" so he'd respect my privacy when I was working.

I know when and if we have a child, it's going to be another battle. He was already surprised when I mentioned that if we had a baby, I was going to look for part-time child care - he didn't think it was necessary with me "at home". I keep pointing out I'm not "at home" so much as I have my own business and am saving overhead on rent. (I probably owe a few of my local coffee shops rent for as many business meetings I take there ;) )

He's a good man, but firmly entrenched in old-fashioned ways. Unfortunately for us, he married an independent 30-something who was actually more independent than he was when we met. So for us it's an uphill battle that has nothing to do with workplace laws, but instead dealing with conflicting expectations. We have worked through them in the past, but it's not been easy, and is one of the reasons we're hesitating on a having a child (there are medical/physical reasons as well).

The ironic part? His mom worked part time (though he had a young and active great-aunt living with them to pick up the domestic slack, so domestic stuff was still within the woman's sphere) - I was the one with the fully-tricked out, Martha-Stewart-skill-level SAHM. Go know.

To Michigan,

(I apologize if I'm repeating what others have already said - I haven't read all the comments yet.)

Your relationship with your husband sounds so much like mine! I just sort of gradually picked up all the tasks that my husband claimed ignorance of or didn't do the way I wanted them done (stupid of me, I know), and now I'd like to give some of them back. I'm gradually trying to turn things over and let him do them his way, but it's tough for both of us.

These two points made by posters are hard for me too. If anyone has insights or suggestions I would appreciate them.

1) That women are kind of expected to be cheerleaders for men who take paternity leave, but rarely do you hear men cheering for women who take maternity leave. More often they say "Wish I could take a three month vacation, too."

2) That men who take paternity leave are seen as heroes and vanguards, but maternity leave is just routine or a negative. Wish both moms AND dads were given more respect for juggling work and kid care.

Brian or others, do you think I'm seeing these in too cynical a light?

Taking a paid month off is great if you have this option. But more than a few of us work for staffing agencies which only make money by selling the commodity of (my) labor. If I don't work, my company does not make any money. Personally, taking a unpaid month off is out of the question as there would be no income to the family.

I do contract to a multi-national company but the limitation to this is that not even the employees are allowed this paid leave as it is not in the culture of the home office.

I am just glad that I am pretty much past the childcare stage and that the company where I work at allows some flexibility for contractors.

OFF TOPIC ALERT
I wasn't around yesterday, but must comment on the discussion on the name "Andrea." The Italians get it "right"--it should only ever be a male name. Andrea comes from Greek "aner," which means "man" as opposed to woman (to be distinguished from "anthropos," which means man in the sense of human being: hence, "anthropology," "misanthropy," etc.). So all our girls named "Andrea" are really named "male." Just don't tell them, ok?

I second what Emily says. And daddy can change a diaper, burp, rock to sleep and bath a newborn baby just as easily as mom. Really, the only thing that dad can't do is nurse a baby, but he certainly can give a bottle.

"I do not mean single parents - who of course have no choice - but those whose children's father are present - but "oh he lets the children do anything they want so I have to step in"..."

What's make you automatically think the mother has custody? Yes, the majority of custody situations do favor the mother but not mine. Typical sexist views I've noticed on these blog comments.

I think it depends where you work. Both the federal agencies I have worked for, I have seen men rountinely take paternity leave. I don't think anyone thought a second about it. A few men, even took off 12 weeks after their spouse went back to work. I don't think anyone applauded them or brushed them off. But the federal agency where DH works, it would be a whole another story.

Leslie wrote: "That women are kind of expected to be cheerleaders for men who take paternity leave, but rarely do you hear men cheering for women who take maternity leave. More often they say "Wish I could take a three month vacation, too."

I am not a parent but I have read a lot of posts by parents. Many mothers have admitted to being the equivalent of "control freaks" and don't give their spouses the opportunity to excel at parenting. Perhaps if they(men) are given the chance to stay home for even one day and actually experience vs watch how much work it is to take care of an infant and house then they wouldn't make the inane comment about "vacation". And when the woman came home and saw that the house didn't burn down and that the child was healthy and happy she could relax and be more willing to give over control to the spouse.

When boyfriend's brother took paternity leave (large defense contractor) it wasn't exactly respected - they still expected him to do conference calls, respond to email, etc.

With regards to Leslie's comment: could it be that people don't cheer about maternity leave because many are cynically placing bets on whether the new mother will come back? All part of the cycle of judgement a new parent goes through...

With regards to Father of 4: I can't agree with you but some parts of society might - I think a lot of men wonder -- well what the hell is a guy doing on paternity leave?

"What's make you automatically think the mother has custody? Yes, the majority of custody situations do favor the mother but not mine. Typical sexist views I've noticed on these blog comments. "

It isn't sexist. It's a statistical fact. Overwhelmingly, the mother is given primary custody of the children. I defy you or anyone else to produce evidence that states otherwise.

in general, babies are not really interesting to the dads until babies begin to crawl.

Chris, I think you were a *little* hard on Tara. I think you'd agree with her basic premise that men should want to do this.

TANGENT: It reminds me of the Chris Rock stand-up when he was talking about what you're "supposed" to do.

Dude: "I don't smoke crack!"
Chris: "Man, you're not SUPPOSED to smoke crack."

Dude: "I don't beat my wife!"
Chris: "You're not SUPPOSED to beat your wife."

Back to the point: Tara made a valid point. However, considering that men should have been doing this for the past few decades and have only just gotten around to it now, I think they need more encouragement.

I don't know about you guys, but when I praise my husband for, say, doing the dishes, I feel a little like I'm talking to a 5 year old ("Honey, that was so nice of you! Wow, you did that all by yourself!"). But, according to Brian, men need that. So I mind it. It does seem to make him feel appreciated. (Of course, when I brought up that I picked up the dog droppings in the backyard, he looked at me like "So, what, do you want a gold star?") Sigh.

"Really, the only thing that dad can't do is nurse a baby..."

Fred, see- I told you yesterday that you have to be careful... it is just a matter of time. ;-)

OMG I saw quotation marks in a post!!! *looks out window* yep, hell froze over. LOL

Just reading, and was about to compliment Brian (for topic) and Leslie (for original post.) About to point out the deal about bees and honey again, and how she seems to have learned something about how being positive can help when you are runnning the blog.

But Leslie couldn't even make it until 10:00 am Eastern before...oh never mind.

Maybe I'm the only one who is now sees her postings "in too cynical a light?"

Even though my husband does child & household things I don't praise him for doing any of these things. It is just a normal part of his/our life. I thnk if I did do the praising thing he would see what he is doing as out of the ordinary and special and it is not. Does anyone else feel that way?

I really don't understand why fathers don't take advantage of paternity leave policies. Don't they want to be involved in their children's lives at the very early stage? Or are they thinking this is what a wife is supposed to do, take care of the baby all by herself?

______________________________________

John: it really is a function of how much leave the father's got, and how it's spread out. In my case, when the first baby was born, I took two weeks off starting from birth, then started taking more time off as my wife was getting ready to go back to work and after she did (she took 4 months as I recall). That way, I didn't burn all my leave/vacation (this was pre-FMLA) at the start and was available for doctor visits or whatever.

The second was born when I had an assignment as a Visiting Professor at the Air Force Academy, and my wife had taken a year's "Spousal leave" (leave without pay with a guarantee of getting her job back; it's a good Fed program). I was limited in how much time I could take off, as I couldn't miss more than a couple classes, so my MIL came out to help. But that was an academic job, so I lived on the Academy grounds and worked 0730-1630 most days and that was it.

With the third and fourth, we went back to me taking two weeks at birth, making sure I saved up the rest for use after my wife went back to work.

(Now, I had already been a Fed for 6 years before the first was born and always, always, always had carried the full complement of 6 weeks leave over every year - I basically didn't take vacation the first three years. So I could take two weeks and still have some left. But managing your vacation is important.)

They're children, not a day care problem. If you don't have the time to take care of them properly, then do everybody a favor and don't have them.

to 9:56: just a note - in general, babies are not really that interesting to moms either until they begin to crawl (or at least around then). Many moms won't admit it, but how interesting do you really think a newborn is when all it does is eat, sleep and poop? So why should dads get off the hook?

Of course we all love our newborns and think they are the cutest things in the world, but that doesn't make them interesting.

I started my own business to prove that you could have a life (and let your employees have one, too) and run a business profitably. It worked! Too many companies don't see that, so more people should start their OWN company to show those others it can be done!

PinkPlate: I don't know; my wife certainly likes praise "once in a while" for her part of keeping the house clean, getting the laundry taken care of, getting dinner cooked, etc. Her view is that it's nice to be noticed and not taken for granted. I guess I probably feel the same way - I don't want mounds of praise every day, but being noticed once in a while is nice.

Sorry for the extra "is" in that last sentence...

Sorry, that should have been "So I DON'T mind it" at 9:59

Michigan and FutureMom,

Your descriptions of how you ended up doing things around the house because your husband didn't/couldn't/wouldn't do them sounds like my house, only in reverse.

My wife was never allowed to help keep the house clean when growing up; her mother insisted on doing everything herself. So, when we married, she had little to none of those skills (but she could cook!). I've gradually inherited the cleaning tasks once it became apparent that my wife had little to no interest in doing them at all, only getting out the broom or mop when things got really bad.

Now I've got the evening cooking task as well because she works late and we didn't want to eat after 8:00 pm. I wonder if there's a hidden plan behind all this...?

Meesh,
You just reminded me of a situation I have with my husband. He makes dinner at least half the time. And I have learned to remember that when HE cooks, I have to give him a lot of praise. Stuff like, "Yummm, this is so good. I LOOOVE the asparagus. Honey, you outdid yourself." This keeps him happy, and cooking, so I do it, even if the asparagus was pretty mediocre. But when I cook, everyone just chows down, helps to clean up, and goes about the evening routine. No big deal. It was just dinner. No biggie.

to 9:56: just a note - in general, babies are not really that interesting to moms either until they begin to crawl (or at least around then).

i beg to disagree with you. i have known many women who just love to hold their babies all day long.

Dan Froomkin does the White House Briefing column/blog at the Post, a thoughtful daily review/pointer to media coverage and commentary on the White House. He has a large daily following, one of the earlier big followings on washingtonpost.com . I remember when he had a first child (18 months ago?) he took paternity leave and his column went in hiatus for 1-2 months.

Of course he came back strong as ever, but I think the fact that he quite visibly disappeared on paternity leave, leaving many political junkies to look elsewhere to meet a daily media habit fulfilled by his coverage is a great example of the leading edge of generational change. He was visible not only to young parents, but to a wide cross-section of folks young, old, childed, not, attracted not by parenting/personal issues but by serious topical expertise (he was one of the early daily blog + weekly discussion types, so it's easy to hear his many readers). To have them experience, hey - serious adult male in my daily intellectual orbit has a child, and *of course* drops off the face of the earth for while, disappears from the daily work-adult life routine to tend to what's really important - that's the kind of visibility to the world beyond the choir of young parents that's really helpful. That becoming a dad is of course a life-changing event that takes top focus for a while. And just like the daily working parent/kid separation, he went away, but he left us pointers to lots of little surrogates and we were just fine in his absence . . . and then he came back, and everything picked up, totally competent and connected, right where it left off, and all remains well with the world. That many of the folks we rely on as part of the texture of our daily worlds, whose work we value, happen to be parents who as a matter of course prioritize parenting. . .

I think this will happen with the generational shift to more and more involved Dads, that people will be exposed not when they become parents and seek out role models, but incidentally in their daily lives among people they already know and respect, and this will have far greater impact.

"in general, babies are not really interesting to the dads until babies begin to crawl."

Or, hold a baseball bat.

football

To: Sterling Park at 9:52 am..

Since I was trying to discuss why it is that men may not be perceived to be good caregivers, or why the burden of caregiving (for elderly, children, whomever) seems to be perceived to be placed on women - I was asking if those women with men in their lives perhaps "take over" or "gatekeep" and prevent the men in their lives from contributing.

As such, I excluded SINGLE MOMS (divorced or widowed or abandoned) who do not have a child's father to gatekeep.

If you are a single father (for whatever reason) I would assume that you have the main share of childcare and therefore have little to do with the conversation I was initiating.

A little over rabidly aggressive this morning, aren't you?

Now I remember why I only post about once a month!

Army Brat, I should have been clearer what I really mean is that I don't do this all the time. I always say thank you as does he and of course, sometimes there is reason to say "wow, that looks lovely, thank you for doing that" or 'I was really beat today and I appreciate .....", but in general, I don't do that for mopped floors, bathed children, cooked suppers etc.

Father of 4

When you are a lonely old man, you won't get much out of sitting around with your kids, either.

And right now we need to praise and encourage the Washington Post for letting us use contractions and quotations, ALSO something that should be normal behavior...

I guess the deep reason we men seek the praise of women, is because of all the burdens society places on us. I still have to tell my wife that men can cry if they are hurt really bad emotionally because they are human beings too. Sure, you may look down on us for needing praise for doing dishes, or for being child-like in some ways- but it is part of our characteristics. Just as women have their emotional needs, and complications men view as silly, and moments that make men roll their eyes... men have such needs and moments too. So, is simple praise for pitching in and doing dishes after a long day's work such a difficult thing to begrudge your beloved?
I always make it a point to thank my wife for cooking a wonderful meal, though it is one of her normal duties to prepare the meals the majority of the time. Appreciate the small things and advances that benefit your relationship, and encourage them. Things will improve. If you do not nurture things, they wither- such is the wisdom I impart in a smartass way to my wife every time one of our plants die. We buy a lot of cacti now. :-)

John: My childhood was similar to your wife's in that my mom did all of the housecleaning and my sibilings and I virtually none of it. I am a mediocre housekeeper at best nowadays. But I credit that to the fact that I don't care nearly as much about it as some people, not that I didn't have the skills. I mean really, how many skills does a person really need to mop the floor or clean a bathroom?

Regarding the female reaction to Fo4's post: even if you didn't have the need or want to hold your baby 24/7, don't you think that *generally speaking*, that there's more of a liklihood that women will have the biological tie to their infant in that way than a man? Isn't that all he was saying - that because he didn't have it because he didn't carry the baby for 9 months and didn't nurse him, that his instincts were likely to be different than his wife's?

Chris

:) about your comment of 9:59.

Michigan said:

"A little over rabidly aggressive this morning, aren't you?"

Nope. I apologize if you took it that way. If you read the comments made on a almost daily basis you will see how often it is assumed Dads need praise or are not included in child rearing.

The reason I am a single father is my ex moved to Cali. Virginia, thanks to they're policy on involving fathers in custody cases, saw fit to award them to me as this is where they're from.

I was not trying to bash you or anything. I'm just tired of people (not saying you as it seems I may have struck a nerve) assuming Mothers are the only ones totally involved in raising the kids.

I do 100% of everything and am not looking for a praise or reward. Seeing my kids and spending time with them is my reward.

Father of 4:

I think it may depend on what kind of paternity leave you have. When our #3 was born, my husband took off 2 weeks. I didn't really need him to do much with the baby since I was nursing what seemed like all the time. But I did need my husband to deal with the other two, taking them to school and daycare, cleaning, cooking, etc., partly because I needed to recover and also because you're not supposed to drive for a couple weeks after giving birth. However, when he took off a month after my leave ended, he had primary care of the baby and had to do everything. I think this was helpful for him to get a realistic idea of what it was like to be alone with a child (or children) all day long and how one can manage to do other domestic things at the same time. I tried really hard not to micromanage his paternity leave (and I think I was pretty successful) because I sure wouldn't have wanted him to try and dictate what I should do on maternity leave. That time alone with the baby gave my husband the chance to learn the baby's cues without mommy hanging over his shoulder telling him how to do it "right" or how he was doing it "wrong."

This praise thing, I'm not buying it. Obviously, we shouldn't be snide or critical when our husbands do childcare or housework, but I think we reinforce our alpha parent role when we praise them. They will adopt their involved behavior when they truly 'own' it, not because we're cheering them on. We can notice and appreciate, just as we would like them to do for our efforts. But when our tone becomes praising and cheerleading, they are still our subordinates. Do you praise your peer colleagues at work for doing the same thing you are doing?

"you're not supposed to drive for a couple weeks after giving birth"

Really??? Never heard that one before? Why shouldn't a women drive for a couple of weeks after giving birth? I'm just trying to understand the rationale for this one. I am the only one who has never heard this before?

"Do you praise your peer colleagues at work for doing the same thing you are doing?"

Assuming what we were doing was a good thing, perhaps the world would be a better place if we did.

MyDH took off about 4 wks after no. 1 was born - well, that was after not really working the ten days before I gave birth due to me being in the hospitak. But he planned to be out, and no one blinked (this was after said co. Laid me off two wks before I went to hospital).

My sister, after hearing this said to me that her husband didn't take any time off after no. 1 was born (he was born on a sat, thank goodness). As if she was proud of it.

To each their own.

I do have friends who each took off 12 weeks after the birth of their child -yes he was praised to no end-and all sorts of people said that he was lucky that he could-even tho it was only FMLA leave. Most ppl still don't know the law.

OT but responding to a non-regular to engender inclusiveness.

"... I think if I did do the praising thing he would see what he is doing as out of the ordinary and special and it is not. Does anyone else feel that way?"

I disagree with you on this. Common courtesy and praise is an excellent lubricant for social interactions like marriage. Frieda always thanks me for washing her car but I would do it anyway as I want her to drive a clean and nice vehicle. I try to praise her for the manifold things that she does for me (but never asparagus.) Sometimes, I am not as good in this as she is. These may be mundane chores that have to be done (scrubbing toilets) but to show appreciation that a person cares enough about you to do so is always welcome.

John(10:06am) and Future Mom,

Yes - when we first got married I went through a brief "super-wife" phase. Mistake. I have let go of most of the domestic stuff and my husband is good about dishes, cat litter, and occasionally vacuuming ... but I had to relax my standards. As in, yes the floor needs to be vacuumed, but no one will die if it is not vacuumed and so I'm not going to vacuum it either.

Eventually it gets vacuumed (as often by him as by me). I had the same problems with roomates -- the neater roomate always gets stuck doing everything - so gradually I've become "less neat" and closer to my husband's perspective on housekeeping..

However what kills me is not the domestic tasks (they're unimportant to me anyways) but the IMPORTANT things... House Insurance, Car Insurance, Car Care, Medical Care, Vet Appointments, Animal Food, Household shopping (toilet paper, paper toweling, etc..), Managing finances, dealing with bill collectors (his - hence why I initially started managing all finances), getting his student loans consolidated..

Literally it is my job to keep our world revolving (yes - I earn more too). He initally had some problems - (aforementioned bills) and was bad at dealing with them -- so I stepped in to prevent disaster (insolvency) and have inheirited all "business operations" dealings with the outside world. Which also spun into "All decision making occurrences period". Its good to know he respects my opinion - but sometimes it drives me crazy!

Because if I'm wrong - I'm singlehandedly responsible for family disaster.

Its easy to push the domestic tasks back to him (we split them pretty well) - because I can lower my housekeeping standards to his (now we're both slobs) - but obviously things like finances - that's harder.

I've been making him deal with his things more now (calling bill collectors to check on things, etc..) and he's getting a little better (he has to call 5 times to get all the information I would ask for in one phone call)..

but its frustrating.

And I know if we have kids that I will absolutely not go down that road. Being soley responsible for the two of us, my elderly parents (45 miles away) continued well being, 4 cats and a dog is enough!!!

John - good luck with the cooking!! :) I just stopped all together -- we eat cereal and hot dogs now!! :)

Fred you crack me up. I read "manifold things" and immediately picture her under the hood of your car.
I agree - please and thank you go far for anyone - kid, spouse, co-worker and wait staff (pet peeve).

Really??? Never heard that one before? Why shouldn't a women drive for a couple of weeks after giving birth? I'm just trying to understand the rationale for this one. I am the only one who has never heard this before?

For women having c sections, this is pretty standard

OT but responding to a non-regular to engender inclusiveness.

Now why was this comment necessary Fred? Why couldn't you just respond to a new person without pointing out her non-regularity and what a great guy you are for being inclusive?

It might be a little OT but I don't think anyone was complaining about the bunny trails, but rather the "let's change the topic to something else altogether because us regulars are done with the main topic of the day."

Chris and Fred,
I think we may be talking about slightly different things. I'm ALL for complimenting and noticing and appreciating. I see 'praise' as something different though - a fawning over or 'Good Boy!' that reflects a superior/subordinate relationship. Marriage works when both partners feel appreciated (and this is also good for colleague relationships) - I completely agree there!

OT alert
Long Post alert--Part one

Guess who wrote this?
======================

Lewis Libby has now been found guilty of perjury and obstruction of justice for lies that had absolutely no legal consequence.

It was not a crime to reveal Valerie Plame's name because she was not a covert agent. If it had been a crime, Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald could have wrapped up his investigation with an indictment of the State Department's Richard Armitage on the first day of his investigation since it was Armitage who revealed her name and Fitzgerald knew it.

With no crime to investigate, Fitzgerald pursued a pointless investigation into nothing, getting a lot of White House officials to make statements under oath and hoping some of their recollections would end up conflicting with other witness recollections, so he could charge some Republican with "perjury" and enjoy the fawning media attention.

As a result, Libby is now a convicted felon for having a faulty memory of the person who first told him that Joe Wilson was a delusional boob who lied about his wife sending him to Niger.

This makes it official: It's illegal to be Republican.

Since Teddy Kennedy walked away from a dead girl with only a wrist slap (which was knocked down to a mild talking-to, plus time served: zero), Democrats have apparently become a protected class in America, immune from criminal prosecution no matter what they do.

As a result, Democrats have run wild, accepting bribes, destroying classified information, lying under oath, molesting interns, driving under the influence, obstructing justice and engaging in sex with underage girls, among other things.

Meanwhile, conservatives of any importance constantly have to spend millions of dollars defending themselves from utterly frivolous criminal prosecutions. Everything is illegal, but only Republicans get prosecuted.

Conservative radio personality Rush Limbaugh was subjected to a three-year criminal investigation for allegedly buying prescription drugs illegally to treat chronic back pain. Despite the witch-hunt, Democrat prosecutor Barry E. Krischer never turned up a crime.

Even if he had, to quote liberal Harvard Law professor Alan Dershowitz: "Generally, people who illegally buy prescription drugs are not prosecuted." Unless they're Republicans.

The vindictive prosecution of Limbaugh finally ended last year with a plea bargain in which Limbaugh did not admit guilt. Gosh, don't you feel safer now? I know I do.

In another prescription drug case with a different result, last year, Rep. Patrick Kennedy (Democrat), apparently high as a kite on prescription drugs, crashed a car on Capitol Hill at 3 a.m. That's abuse of prescription drugs plus a DUI offense. Result: no charges whatsoever and one day of press on Fox News Channel.

I suppose one could argue those were different jurisdictions. How about the same jurisdiction?

"For women having c sections, this is pretty standard"

But that's not what was said - it was "after giving birth." I knew the c section rate was high but are we now supposed to assume that every woman who gives birth had a c section?

"...not by shaming the lunkheads who still don't get it..."

Are you talking about Leslie, Brian? She indicates she's never heard of or heard from a man who considered childcare to be important in his life.

OT

"Now why was this comment necessary Fred? Why couldn't you just respond to a new person without pointing out her non-regularity and what a great guy you are for being inclusive?"

Because I am feeling a bit snarky after being slammed yesterday.

To londonmom:

Both of my obstetricians told me not to drive for several weeks after giving birth. One of them explained that it's mainly because you can hurt yourself if you have to slam on the brakes. Sorry to get a little graphic, but I think it's to do with stitches. I didn't have a c-section. I would guess that if you have a v. delivery with minimal repair work, a doctor might ok driving sooner.

I second what Emily says. And daddy can change a diaper, burp, rock to sleep and bath a newborn baby just as easily as mom. Really, the only thing that dad can't do is nurse a baby, but he certainly can give a bottle.
-----------------------------
Did you ever stop to consider that there might be a reason that nature gave mothers the mammary glands that lactate?

Because I am feeling a bit snarky after being slammed yesterday.

Understandable. But it was a regular who first brought up the non-inclusiveness yesterday, so why the snark in the direction of the newbies?

"Isn't that all he was saying - that because he didn't have it because he didn't carry the baby for 9 months and didn't nurse him, that his instincts were likely to be different than his wife's?"

What about adoptive mothers? They don't carry the baby?

Sterling Park:

Okay - I was perhaps a little aggressive! :) I do hate the comments that man-bash and hate the people who stereotype women ("women seem to biologically want to hold babies all the time"). That's why I try to speak in specifics (my husband, my family) and tried to specifically exclude single women because I didn't want a single woman who has no choice but to do all the caring herself (again - in the case of abandonement or widowhood) to yell at me that she'd love to dump it on the child's father but has no choice!! :)

So instead I perceived you to be yelling at me about excluding single-fathers!!

Sometimes you just can't win! ;)

I don't have children yet, and though I have strong ideas (from my own childhood) I am amazed by the thoughts/concerns/conflicts of today's parents... and I have noticed a trend of perfectionism that is scary.

My children will not have a perfect home - a good home, a safe home, a "give me 30 minutes and I'll find your blankie" home - but not a perfect "everything is always organized, always clean, always done" home..

and I seem to pick up that vibe a lot from this board and just wonder if people are expecting too much.. and if that carries over from women preventing their loved ones from helping because they're the only ones who can do it right..

Men who take paternity leave are wusses. It is expected that women take the time off to recover from delivery; however, a father only needs to be out a day or two. Then the job with momma's. I can imagine the jokes when men ask for paid time off to sit home and play with the baby. When people stayed in their traditional roles, they were much happier and the world was a better place to live. See what the Women's Lippers have done to us.

Ann Coulter wrote it. I would say Che posted it, but it is too conservative.

Do I get a gold star?

Michigan,

Actually, I've discovered I'm a fairly good cook, which has surprised me since I never was taught how, ever. After a few mishaps with things like rice, I gained a little confidence and my wife makes sure to thank me for taking on this job, even if the meals are sometimes kind of simplistic or taste odd (I experiment with spices).

Michigan - I once had a boss with financial management issues similar to yours. She was an engineer; he a full, tenured professor of biochemistry at Hopkins. Think "absent-minded professor". (They had no kids.)

She always did all the finances because, quite frankly, he didn't care. As long as there was money coming out of the ATM when he used his card, that was fine.

She got a new job assignment that kept her traveling a lot, so she told him that he was now in charge of the finances. Three months later, she was trying to check in to a hotel in San Francisco when her credit card was refused. In fact, ALL of her credit cards were refused, except for one she kept for "emergencies" (think: the other cards were stolen) and never used.

When she got home, she went in to his home office - to discover three months of unopened bills, notices, etc. on his desk. Near the top of the pile were the notices that their water, electricity etc. were about to be shut off for nonpayment of bills.

It took her a full week to straighten everything out, and then she just accepted the fact that she'd be doing the finances for the REST of the marriage, too.

To the posters regarding husbands who don't do domestic shores, or feign ignorance. My hubby did the same thing when we moved into together and was hit between the eyeballs when our baby came. Before her arrival I told him that I couldn't do it all and that he would have to pitch in. Fast foward to our baby's birth (an unplanned C-section); my hubby was FORCED to take care of both of us for about three weeks. Boy did his "ignorance" disappear FAST! Three months later, I refuse to accept any type of "ignorance" !!!! We are a team and have to be to take care of our #1 priority, our child. That being said, it is a total blast and doesn't feel like work at all. Being a parent is highly recommended to make one realize what is really important in life.

Regarding paternity leave, my hubby took about one month off after our little girl was born. He didn't use FMLA but worked something out with his boss, who was shocked at his request but complied nonetheless. I reminded my husband about his right to FMLA at the time and told him to use that as a bargaining chip. I think his boss viewed a month better than three months!!!

Everybody wants to know
what the kids was listening to.

What kind of music was they listening to?
Or what kind of movies was they watching?

Who gives a f*ck what they was watching?

Whatever happened to crazy?

What happened to crazy?
What, you can't be crazy no more?

Did we eliminate ''crazy''
from the dictionary?

F*ck the records. F*ck the movies. Crazy!

When l was a kid, they used to separate
the crazy kids from everybody.

When l was a kid, the crazy kids
went to school in a little-ass bus.

They had a class at the end of the school...

and they used to get out of school at : .

Just in case they went crazy...

they would only hurt other crazy kids.

This is one of those issues which will change, with time, with the decades, one Dad at a time. Each time one Dad sticks his neck out a little bit to openly participate in a part of his child's life which his employer/colleagues have not seen before, it makes it easier for the next Dad. I'm actually extremely optimistic for the future. My DH is a wonderful Dad, drops DD off at daycare, and tries to make it home for bath on Fridays, as well as multiple diaper changes, clearing up vomit, and shopping for baby clothes, but also looks after DD singlehanded when I'm travelling. His own father is intensely proud of how DH takes an equal share, something that he never did with his own children until DH came along, and which he regrets. DGF is now nearly 90 and flew cross-country to dig us out of a hole when daycare place was delayed for 3 weeks. I feel so happy that this involvement from the male role-models in DD's life is what she will come to experience and expect for her own children. Things aren't so bad. But it does take a little courage and support from senior management sometimes.

"Do you praise your peer colleagues?"

When they are in training, yes, regularly and most particularly when they are doing something RIGHT.

Thereafter, periodically. Because everyone wants to be noticed when they are doing a good job, even if it is just once in a while.

That's also why I pointed out you don't do it continuously--that's patronizing. But if someone is doing something that you like, or appreciate, why not tell them?

If you don't mean it, don't say it. Almost everyone knows when praise is insincere.

"you're not supposed to drive for a couple weeks after giving birth"

Really??? Never heard that one before? Why shouldn't a women drive for a couple of weeks after giving birth? I'm just trying to understand the rationale for this one. I am the only one who has never heard this before?

Posted by: londonmom | March 8, 2007 10:25 AM

That's what they told me all three times. And none of those times was a c-section. I believe it has something to do with the possibility of hemorraging. Probably not a likely scenario but doctors/hospitals are good for CYA advice.

I agree, Rebeldad. I'd bet that concentrating on the jerks who don't contribute makes the good guys feel like they can't win. Kind of like the "nice guy" who can't get a date because guys have taken such a beating for being opportunistic jerks. Most people respond better to positive rather than negative feedback, and instead of focusing on the neglectful, we should give credit to where it's due. Kudos to current and future fathers who perform an equal role in childcare and all other facets of life.

"That's what they told me all three times. And none of those times was a c-section. I believe it has something to do with the possibility of hemorraging. Probably not a likely scenario but doctors/hospitals are good for CYA advice."

It's amazing how many hospitals and doctors in this country hand out 1950's advice like this. Equally amazing how many people believe it without questioning.

When us guys slap our buddies on the back before he takes 6 weeks paternity leave, what we are actually doing is showing approval and praise to him for sneaking the golf clubs and fishing poles into the trunk while his wife is still in the maternity ward.

Just being honest...

To Michigan re: perfectionism and not wanting your spouse touch the baby. It's not something you plan for. Before I had my child my husband and I had conversations about being laid back and being equals. When our child was born, I didn't want ANYONE to touch her, not even him. My maternal instinct was so strong, and it shocked me. I had to learn to chill out and now I am better but boy the feelings of wanting to not screw up your kid and to be perfect are ever present.

lf the kid calls his grandmamma ''Mommy''...

and his mama ''Pam,'' he's going to jail.

You ain't saving no college money,
you saving bail money.

That money's going to Johnnie Cochran.

That's right.
lf the kid can't read, that's Mama's fault.

That is Mama's f*cking fault.

Now, if the kid can't read
'cause there ain't no lights in the house...

that's Daddy's fault.

You got this sh*t down?

See, nobody gives a f*ck about Daddy.
There's some real daddies out there.

l'm not talking about the guy
that f*cked you and left.

F*ck him, okay?
l'm talking about the real daddies.

There's still some motherf*ckers out there
that handle their business.

Motherf*ckers wanna act like brothers....

There's some brothers
that handle their business.

'Cause people don't give a f*ck....
Nobody gives a f*ck about Daddy.

Everybody takes Daddy for granted.
Just listen to the radio.

Everything's ''Mama. Dear Mama.
Always loved my Mama.''

What's the Daddy song?
Papa was a Rollin' Stone.

Nobody gives a f*ck.
Nobody appreciates Daddy.

Now, Mama's got the roughest job.
l ain't gonna front.

But at least people appreciate Mama.

Every time Mama do something right,
Mama gets a compliment...

'cause women need to hear compliments
all the time.

Women need food, water, and compliments.

That's right.

And an occasional pair of shoes.

That's right. Women got to hear it
all the time, or they lose their minds.

And get Daddy to make sure
you thank your mama for everything.

''Tell your mama how good the food is.
Tell her how nice the house looks.

''Tell your mama how nice her hair looks.

''Did you tell your mama?
You better go in there and tell your mama.''

That's right! ''Tell your mama.''

Nobody ever tells Daddy sh*t.

l'm talking about the real daddies
that handle their f*cking business.

Nobody ever says, ''Hey, Daddy,
thanks for knocking out this rent.''

''Hey, Daddy, l sure love this hot water.''

''Hey, Daddy,
this is easy to read with all this light.''

Nobody gives a f*ck about Daddy.

l'm talking about a daddy that handles his
business. Nobody gives a f*ck about Daddy.

Think about everything
that the real daddy does:

pay the bills, buy the food,
put a f*cking roof over your head.

Everything you could ever ask for.

Make your world a better, safer place.

And what does Daddy get for all his work?

The big piece of chicken.
That's all Daddy gets...

is the big piece of chicken.

"Kind of like the "nice guy" who can't get a date because guys have taken such a beating for being opportunistic jerks."

And here I thought I couldn't get a date back in the day because I was an intellectual (read: nerd) with big thick glasses.

l don't give a f*ck, you ain't never
gonna hear Newt Gingrich go:

''Man, l wish these hoes
would back up off me.

Leslie on your points -

I don't think men "expect" women to be cheerleaders for them if they take paternity leave. If women choose to do this, then great. But speaking for myself, I braced for a backlash when I took paternity leave and did not expect applause. As it was, it was not really leave. The company was in a busy period so I worked nights, primarily between the 9pm and Midnight feedings. Not a full workday, but you get the point.

On #2, I agree. Paternity leave is still a novel concept, while Maternity leave is old news to some. I think this is sort of a by-product of progress. The novelty around paternity leave will wear off I'm sure.

It is also worth noting that a lot of this perception has to do with your work environment. In a professional services job (Law, IT, Medicine) the high-ups will demand that nothing fall through the holes during your leave, no matter what your gender. No one will hesitate to call you at home. Proud Mama got a call from her firm asking about a casefile while we were in the delivery room!! Maybe if you are a factory worker, this is not an issue.

I could have done without the spacing, but thank you to whoever posted the Chris Rock on Dads post. THAT made my day. So true... LOL.

Fathers can't nurse? Didn't you see 'Meet the Fockers' and Robert DeNiro and that disgusting fake boob stapped on? I cringed thinking that would start a whole new fad. Fathers with fake boobs nursing in public. Oh, no! Demonstrating at Capitol Hill! Riding on a subway! Sitting in the Park on play dates! Whipping it out while giving a speech! Gag! My stomach turns over at the thought of it.

Are we talking about "nice guys" who do not have a spine, who never offer their own opinions, never say no, who want to be everybody's friend?

Or the nice guys who are honest with themselves and others?

Because the former deserve to find a parasitic partner, who is equally tiresome as themself.

The latter will do fine, eventually.

I'm going to guess that "Texas Dad of 2" wrote the long post because he seems to tend toward conservative.

To whomever wrote it: perceived injustices aside, I think that it does no one any good to constantly divide the parties. This us-against-them mentality is exactly what the politicians want us to get caught up in so that we ignore the real issues. If you want advice, try to focus on the important things that matter to you instead of keeping score.

To 10:37: Women's Lippers?!??!? Who are these people? Does this have anything to do with stitches? Or are the fabled "scream queens?"

I think I can sum up what the anon posters are getting at: you women stay home and make babies. Men should be working. The end. Now you guys don't have to post anymore!!

I cringed thinking that would start a whole new fad.

Wow...such faith in the intelligence of our society.

To Leslie: I am all for more discussion of how we can make parents cheerleaders for other parents, regardless of gender. But I have to confess to a bit of ignorance about the perception of leave-takers: do moms really look down on other moms who take leave?

As for paternity-leave-takers being seen as vanguards, I am eagerly awaiting the day when guys taking leave is so routine, so boring, that no one thinks twice about it. Unfortunately, the reason that it is still noteworthy when a guy takes a full 12 weeks is that it remains rare. But the more light we shine the guys that do it, the closer we get to making it routine. And once that happens, folks, I promise to pipe down.

"MyDH took off about 4 wks after no. 1 was born"

Altmom - At first I thought you were recounting your husband leaving you after the baby was born, on the second read I got it.

I do have something in my contact so I am going to blame it on that.

Scarry,
I agree that different people like to do different things. Some people are born baby nurturers. Some not. What I don't agree with is that all women are born baby nurturers because they are biologically engineered that way, and that men are better at taking care of the nest by fixing things, cleaning, working, etc. It depends on the individual man or woman, IMO.

Posted by: Emily | March 8, 2007 09:39 AM

(stands up and cheers at desk, GO EMILY!)

The baby phase was what we had to live through until our children had personalities. Babies are dull as dirt. There's no biological engineering that makes women slower to boredom than men.

There are some snarky anonymous posts I am tempted to ignore that go alone the lines of "why have children if you aren't going to take the time out to raise them"? I'll say this because I imagine a lot o fother paretns are probably thinking the same thing-- because it is actually better for our families and for society at large for us to go back to work. And there is no evidence that placing an infant in a high quality daycare center has any detriment to the child. to the extent that they get sick more often, such sicknesses build immunity and may cause discomfort but no long term harm.

I stayed home for 3 years with my first, but I'm expecting again and I am seriously considering going back to work after 2 months of recovery and then place the child in the daycare center in my office building. Why? I have the money to stay home again, but i feel really needed at work. I'm in management and it's tough to find a replacement. I'm doing a job that is actually helpful to society.

My only concern is that I will be zombie if the child doesn't sleep at night! I wonder if I could get advance leave or unpaid leave to allow for late mornings coming in. Any other ideas on how to hadle that if it is a problem?

Thanks!

Chris , I agree on the spacing, but: THank you for that Chris Rock post! I am practically in tears I'm laughing so hard!!! So true!!