I say go ahead and farm them out to whoever will take them

I stayed home with my parents. Had every dinner together. Played, and rode our bikes everywhere. Sometimes camped, somtimes just lay in the grass and watched the clouds. Visited relatives regularly. When I was older, had jobs of increasing responsibility for spending money.

My spouse went to camp while parents went to Europe for 6-8 weeks every year. When in their teens, put to work in family business (parents were the only employees), taking and shipping orders, depositing checks, and keeping track of parent's stock portfolio.

For our family, we decided to have those dinners together, vacation together, and visit relatives together. Now that they are older, and more responsible, they thanked us for those nostalgic summers.

The best times of my entire life were when I was shipped off for the month of August every year to a family friend's farm.

Man, did I love those animals! We didn't have pets at home; my mother said pets are
dirty.

All my little chores made me feel like a very important 3 year old young lady.

I still have the home movies from the '50s showing me feeding the cats fresh milk, hanging laundry, and cuddling with a newborn calf.

Happy, happy carefree times.

My parents had to drag me kicking, biting, and screaming to get me in the car for the ride home.

When I was a teenager, I worked at a sleep-away camp where we had kids as young as 6 staying there for the entire summer. I thought that was far too young. Kids that age still need their mommy and daddy around.

It probably depends on the kid. My son didn't seem ready at age 11, but now at 13, he's dying to go away to camp. He's signed up for 3 weeks. My other child, on the other hand, is 8 and he wants to go now and he probably could be ready. But I'm not.

And I wish my parents would take my kids for a few weeks. They wouldn't because they say "they're you're responsibility" so I feel they lose out on a relationship with them. My parents are 3,000 miles away. And my kids are exquisitely well behaved so it's my parents issue--not my kids that are the issue. Pretty sad.

From about the age of 3 on, I spent the winters with my grandparents in FL, and some time in the summer with them at their lake house as well. My mom would come down to visit whenever she could, but as a single mom getting her PhD, life was pretty hectic, and my grandparents taking me at those times really helped her out. My family was very close when I was a child - we all lived in the same house even!!, so it never felt like I was being sent away. And it gave me wonderful memories of time with my grandparents, who both passed on by the time I was a teenager.

My kids have gone away to girl scout camp for a week, and have also gone for a week on vacation with friends' families, but never both trips in the same year.

I work full time, 40 hours not DC full time, and feel like I don't see them enough as it is. I would miss them too much to allow them to go away for more than a week. Grandparents are local, so they can see them on weekends. Other family is out of state, but when we see them, we all go.

Affordability for sleep over camps for more than a week would also be an issue with us.

My brother and I were shipped off to my grandparents house in FL each summer after my parents divorced. We flew by ourselves from Oregon to Florida, usually the day after school ended, and we returned the day before it started again. We loved it, since my grandparents had a pool, go-carts, lots of animals, etc. For my mom, there really was not much of a choice. She was on a single income, and paying for care all summer would have been extemely hard. We did that for about 5-6 years until we were old enough to work, do other things that didn't require babysitters. Now that we are grown, my mom has shared with us how incredibly difficult it was for her to do that each year.

I Girl Scout camp attended every summer starting at about age 9 until I was 15. I would go for a week or two maybe two or three times in the summer -- different sessions. Loved it.

Our situation will probably be different unless we move. Both my parents were teachers and had the summers off, so childcare wasn't an issue, and we'll be doing year round schooling where we live in NC unless we put our kids in private schools.

"so I feel they lose out on a relationship with them. My parents are 3,000 miles away. And my kids are exquisitely well behaved so it's my parents issue--not my kids that are the issue. Pretty sad."

So who moved 3000 miles away? Can't really blame your parents for lack of relationship if you were the one who put the children so far away. After raising my own family, I'm not sure I would want to take full responsibility of my grandchildren for several weeks either.

I have trouble seeing a full summer-long sleepaway camp or grandparent visit. Partly selfish (I'd miss them too much), and partly not (I want them to have memories of relaxed, "boring" summers at home -- 20+ years after the fact, I finally recognize what a tremendous luxury it was to have so much free time that it actually bored me!).

But I absolutely want to send them to relatives or camp for shorter times. I spent several weeks every summer visiting grandparents, and those trips were the highlights of my year. Grandma spoiled me rotten, and Granny taught me how to can vegetables and make jam and generally feel useful and competent.

We started sending our daughter to my dad's for a week when she was only 18 months old. (!!) His idea -- I thought she was too young, but he practically begged for a visit. She has a complete blast. This year he's already trying to find really interesting day camps to send her to in the mornings -- of course, all she really wants is Grandpa, but it's really touching to see how important it is to him to make sure she has the best possible time.

When I was young, I my parents didn't arrange much for us to do. We pretty much just played in the backyard. I don't think there was money for camps.

As for my in-laws who live out west, my kids are the last of the grandchildren and they aren't as interested in having them around as they were the first of the thirteen. They really are not good at paying attention to the children either.

My parents live close by and between day camps, the time my husband and I take off and the time they spend with my parents, they have a pretty good time. I have step children in college that we are paying for so extra money even with two incomes coming in is rough.

I don't know any parents that send their kids off to camp.

When I grew up in DC (Cap Hill) I spent part of summer with grandparents in New Jersey/Maine, esp. August.

Now I live in lower slower delaware, and I do the reverse: the boys (as they get older) spend several weeks in DC/Maine with my parents (who still work.) They have done day camp for years at their day care here, but this year oldest ds is doing 4 weeks at Folger Shakespeare camp (and a week in Maine), middle ds is doing FONZ camp and a week in Maine, and youngest ds is doing a week in DC (museums, etc.) and possibly some time in Maine. It gives each child time with the gp's and access to specialized camps which suit their particular interest. When oldest ds turns 11 or 12 I will look at a week or two of sleepaway camp (I remember learning to sail/canoe/swim/campfires/hikes fondly.)

Jessker

I went to camp for 10 years (4 as a counselor).

The youngest kids at the sleep-away camp (in "mini camp") were 8 years old. They only stayed for a week. That's a good amount of time for them. Almost all of them got homesick, but so did lots of the 12 year olds. The oldest kids at camp were about 13 or 14. If they wanted to come back, they had to be counselors.

As a camper, I never stayed longer than 4 weeks. I think that almost every kid will do fine at camp, but you have to know their limitations. Some of my friends stayed only 2 weeks, others stayed the whole summer. It depends.

When you pick a camp, do research. Meet the counselor when you drop them off. Take into account what the counselor says. We wrote letters home evaluating the kids, and I was always honest about how they got along. Some parents got leters explaining that their kid was being teased or was being a bully. I was always amazed to see those same kids the next summer.

"The parents get a break...kids experience a new level of independence...Sounds like "balance" all around."

Yesterday we discussed the glories of dual income parenting. Today it's the wonders of shipping the kids off for weeks on end during the summer.

If your kids, especially the younger ones, spend more waking hours in the care of someone else, that doesn't seem like balance. It seems like parental outsourcing.

I went to visit my grandparents for the summer when I was 10. I flew by myself as an "unaccompanied minor" (airline's lingo). I stayed about 8 weeks. IT WAS GREAT!!! I got to bond with a lot of relatives I didn't know due to the bulk of my family being on the east coast and my parents living out west. Years later my mother mentioned that when I returned from that trip I was much more independent. She felt she had lost a little of her "baby."

My parents still live out west. I live in DC. My 4 y/o will probably spend a few weeks with them this summer, depending on when we can fly out. I feel he's too young to fly alone.

I think that if you have the opportunity to send your tweener or teenager to visit a relative in another part of the country, you should consider taking advantage of it. I knew so many kids in CA who had never left the state (easy to never leave a state so large) and I know just as many adults here in the DC area who have never left the area for more than a week or two at the beach or in Orlando. Visiting other places broadens a child's horizons and lays a foundation for a more well rounded adult.

As wonderful as it can be to have children spend time with grandparents, I wonder if "sending them off" happens less these days because there's a trend toward people having children later in life. The grandparents are older too, so maybe some have less energy to be responsible for young children for extended periods. Even very well-behaved school-aged children would require a change in routine/more work for an older person/couple. For healthier/more energetic grandparents it may be that they're reluctant to give up the freedom to travel/have couple time after years of working and raising their own families.

As with everything else, it depends on the individual grandparents' health/interests. I imagine a week-long visit seems more realistic/manageable than a visit of several weeks to many grandparents.

I'll be interested to read what everyone has to say about sleepaway camp. Seven sounds awfully young to me, but I can't say what a minimum age would be. I suppose it depends largely on the individual child and the length of stay.

I've heard that some camps have a no contact rule for the first week. I understand the reasoning behind it, but this seems hard, especially for a grade-schooler. Is this rule the norm or the exception?

Oh how I wish I'd been shipped off the New Hampshire for a month or so when I was a kid! At this point in my life I'd go in a heartbeat -- if only I had the leave.

I say, if you've got the dough, go for it. It's the kind of thing your kids will remember forever.

You can coordinate the family vacation with part of it. Compared to city day-camps it's such an experience for a kid to really spend some time outside.

I'd say somewhere in the 8-10 year old range. You don't want to wait until they're 12-13 because they won't believe how great it will be and will give you a lot of grief about going. If you pick a residential camp you have some hope they'll make friends and maybe those kids will go again the next year. I wouldn't shy away from religious camps either. It hooks your kids into a network that will come up time and time again as they grow up.

New England -- I'm ready, when do we leave?

We went to sleepaway camp when we were 10. 8 weeks I believe, until college, I think, except one summer for me when I was in high school. Oh, wait, two other summers I went to a local performing arts camp. And then one summer to israel. My grandmother always had us over for weekends, or she'd stay with uys if my parents went away, it really made for us having a special relationship with my grandma and her two sisters, who she lived with.
I think 10 is probably. A good age for sleepaway camp. We'll see how the kids are and when or if they want to go.
I'd send them off to grandma and grandpa but they are only 20 mins away, so they see them all the time. Maybe the older will spend a few days witth them this summer.

Marian, the kids could not call their parents (there were only two phone in the camp--in the dining hall and the office), but they could write as many letters as their little fingers could manage. Lots of parents gave me stacks of letters when they dropped the kids off so that the kid could start getting them the next day.

But the girl scout camp that I went to was much more strict. One mail day a week and no care packages. It was tough.

I spent the summer I turned 8 traveling with my paternal grandparents on an East Coast road trip. It was a great extension of our normal visit the East Coast for 2 weeks trip that I did every year with either my mother or my father.

On the sleep away camp thing -- I think I read last year that traditional camps are struggling and also having to modernize to keep up with people's desire to have instant access to their children. (More email and phone access mostly). Kind of a shame because the best thing about camp is fostering a sense of independence.

OT to scarry: You made me laugh this morning - fence boards (BF calls them house nazis) and fiery tempered pregnant scarry taking on the queen bees.

My daughter's favorite camps were horseback riding and llama. She had the time of her life at these camps, but I believe as in most things in life, the planning was the best part.

The award ceremonies at these camps are pretty cute. The little campers (and their parents)looked mighty proud when their names are called.

I love the idea of summer camp. When I was a kid, I would devour books about kids at camp, and dreamed of being able to go myself. It seemed like such a wonderful way to build independence and have fun for a summer (and, frankly, to get me away from my parents).

I would consider sending DD to summer camp, if she wants to go, when she's 9 or so. Unfortunately, it may never be an option for us. Im also in NC, and it's looking like by the time DD is old enough, we'll have moved to mandatory, univeral year-round schools. It's my only huge gripe with a year-round system.

I begged my parents to let me go to sleepaway camp when I was 7 (turning 8 at the end of the summer). It was 3 weeks long. I was the youngest camper. I was ready for it, and had a good time *except* for the other campers my age. Their parents were all getting divorced that summer or just plain didn't want them around. So the kids my age were pretty messed up. It wasn't until I bonded with some of the older kids (whose family lives didn't have all the turmoil) that I felt happy there.

Now that I'm a mom, there's no way I would send my kid off to sleepaway camp when they are 7, mostly because of my experience. But a visit to the grandparents for a week would be great for all involved.

Rockville Dad:

In summer, kids are out of school, but our work hours dont change (and we dont automatically get more leave.) IMHO, all day school plus aftercare vs. all day camp and/or a week or two away (camp, family) doesnt equal "parental outsourcing." It equals making sure your kids are well cared for/ge time with family/get exposed to new activities/people/places.) A duel earner household has to do just that: keep earning.

Jessker

"As wonderful as it can be to have children spend time with grandparents, I wonder if "sending them off" happens less these days because there's a trend toward people having children later in life."

Marian, good point. I know my in-laws prefer to come up here while my sister-in-law and her husband go on vacation), so they can keep the kids in the same routine and the same bed -- and have a little time for themselves when the kids go to school/daycare!

On my side, the issue isn't the work but finding the time: both of my parents still work! I'm really, really lucky that my mom wants to see her grandkids so much that she picks them up from school at least once or twice every week, even though she teaches and runs her own business on the side. And my dad (who lives in another state) arranges his summer schedule around having his granddaughters visit (my daughter and her cousin, who is a year younger). It makes me really happy to see the kind of relationships they are building.

"It wasn't until I bonded with some of the older kids"

I solved the bonding problem by paying for my daughter's best friend to attend camp and other activities with my daughter.

They are 24 years old now and still best friends forever.

murfette, you were THREEE when you went away! You must be a truely independant soul! sounds like it worked great for you, but since my three-year old still climbs into bed with my husband and I at night, I doubt that would work for him! I wouldn't want to impose that kind of awkward situation on even my very best friend aor closest family member.

"I wouldn't shy away from religious camps either. It hooks your kids into a network that will come up time and time again as they grow up."

Right. Let the God Squad get their mitts on your kids as young as possible to scare
the hell out of 'em with threats of fire and brimstone.

Great network.

Are these the camps with the Virginity Pledges?

I sent all my emplo...um, kids...to "camp" called Nanjin Brick Concern. All summer they play in factory. Make money. Big fun. Of 4, 3 came back. Wife happy.

I went away to camp for at least 2 weeks and usually 4-6 weeks every summer starting when I was 8. It was AWESOME! DS#1 is only 5, so no away camp yet, but... we've found 2 traditional away camps accessible from the DC area that also have "family camp". Mom, Dad and kids go together for anywhere from a long weekend to 10 days. We're hoping to try it for a long weekend in Sept. Seems like a great way to introduce younger kids to the camp experience, while sharing something that I loved as a child.

DH on the other hand, never even went to day camp. Now, even though DS#1 loves day camp, DH still has trouble getting his head around it. Guess it's all what you grew up with.

Finally, have a question that's technically off topic, but I think tangentially related. Anyone have long-term experience with one parent taking the kids somewhere, say to grandpa's house at the beach, for the summer while the other parent says home to work and drives to join the family on the weekends?

I think that having a child spent sometime elsewhere is a terrific idea. It introduces a concept of independence that all child will need eventually. I think that this should happen before the teen years. I know of children who have spent their entire lives thru high school totally with the parents and then have major problems going off to college. (Works the same way for parent) As always, you know your child best but they should not be allowed to be clingy forever.

I went to camp for 8 weeks from the time I was in third grade till college. I do remember family vacations after that but they tended to take place during winter break or spring break. NY has a February break time. Excellent for traveling during the off season. My mother stayed home till I was 12, so I guess her summers with no kids was her free time. She admitted to me when I was an adult, she did not really miss us at all. Even though that is tough to say, I can understand if I was a SAHM, it would be nice to have a break time. She wasn't always kid free the whole summer because middle brother decided in late elementary school that he hated camp. But oldest brother and myself loved it. It was the best memories of our childhood. I don't think I would send DD away for 8 weeks. She just doesn't seem the type to enjoy being away for so long. Also as two working parents, we don't get as much time with her. So we envision her attending church sleep away camp when she is around 8 or 9 for two weeks of the summer. I think the first two summers may only be one week. I think she would love the experience but get most of it in a two week period. I would also like to send her to see my mom and brother (they live next door) for a week each summer. I don't think my mom could really take it for more then a week. DD is her last grandchild and like Marian said, as they get older so does their health. Then we would vacation for at least a week. The times in between would be filled with day camps (which seem like glorified day cares or sports lessons). And we would try to do more weekend activities-like local theme parks, a beach weekend, visiting grandfather who has a pool etc...

Summer is the ultimate balancing act and each year there are different tricks to be performed on the wire. If you dont have much leave you should start planning in November and take into account your kids' ages, appetite for independence, and your income and work hours and location...all of which change each year.

Now...mix in wait lists and "previous camper" and county residence requirements and see what comes out.

When we first moved to Fairfax we could not get into the county program because kids previously in the program had priority. My son when to a different day camp with extended hours every two weeks spread over 2 counties and DC. I learned a lot that year about balance.

I have a folder that is golden-it includes every reasonably priced county or privately run camp/program within 20 miles. Our kids love going to a two week sleepover camp that is our biggest expenditure of the year...filled up--no joke--in OCTOBER of 2006. The grandparents take them camping for two weeks (thank you!). Then there are many daycamps to fill in the gaps but I still need either transportation or extended hours....We have a very good income now, but that first year I spent more on summer camps and daycare than I did on the mortgage.

A move to Arlington was the best help for Summer since it is the most incredible county for helping parents with this--reasonable programs and subsidies for low income. Transportation for many programs and after care. They even have camps the last week of summer before labor day! On top of that the kids absolutely loved the programs and now do academic stuff through the career center and summer school. The county even offers volunteer and paid jobs for teens. Arlington feels like Europe in the Summer! Thanks for helping me balance.

When my son is a little older, I will probably send him to a week long overnight camp over the summer. But more than that would be too much. Maybe not for him, but for me. I love the summer. I love going out for ice cream after dinner, and sitting in the back yard just talking while he catches fireflies. I love weekends at the pool, and lazy evening cook outs. I love that life is less pressured, that there is no homework, and that the days are long. Why on earth would I want to send my son away during the season that I most enjoy spending with him? As far as I'm concerned, day camps, along with one week away to help him foster some independence, are fine during the summer. But more time away from him would break my heart.

To 2terrificboys,
When I was a kid we lived in CT. My grandparents had a house on a lake in Maine. My uncle and his family had property on an adjoining lake (they slept in tents and used an outhouse).
My grandmother and my uncle both taught so they were off all summer.
My dad would take our family (mom and three kids, dog and cat) up to Maine right after school ended and stayed a week.
He would return to CT by himself and work for the rest of the summer while we had a blast.
A couple of weeks before school started he would come up for another week then take us all back for school.
Some of my best childhood memories are of those summers.

Jen,

Yes I was 3 went I went to a farm, but the big incentive was that the farm had things I didn't have at home. Animals, warm loving people, a big ole swimming hole. Fields to run in.

My mother is the type that spends a lot of time looking in the mirror, primping and checking out her Junior League schedule. Everything about her is cold, stiff, and calculated (including her prayers).

It's no surprise that I was happy anyplace that didn't include her phony, fake self.

Kids are pretty good at sniffing out hypocrites.

In my case I spent a lot of time in the summer at the grand parents house near the water. I got out of the city and made different, and better, friends for the summer. Which was great since my city friends were a bit rough around the edges.

My child has gone to camp for at least two weeks a summer since he was 9. This summer he goes away for four weeks. He, and we, like the break. It exposes him to many different types of people. He has to work out differences with people on his own. It makes him more mature. I think kids need the break from the parents.

"Anyone have long-term experience with one parent taking the kids somewhere, say to grandpa's house at the beach, for the summer while the other parent says home to work and drives to join the family on the weekends?"

Yes, it's been going on for decades in NYC. It's called "Daddy has a summer fling while the wife and kiddies go out of town"!

NewSAHM, Just FYI, if you're in Wake County and have a few minutes to visit the WCPSS website, take a look at the 4 tracks for year-round schools.

http://www.wcpss.net/Calendars/2007-08/07-08-year-round.pdf

All 4 tracks have several weeks off in the summer for extended sleep-away camps and visits for relatives.

To 8:30:
I went to religious camps for one week per summer when I was 12-16 - although I'm not religious now, I think it was a good experience. My very religious and strict parents would not have been comfortable sending me away to a non-religious camp, so it was the only way for me to get a little independence. Of course the camp emphasized religious themes, but was mostly outdoor stuff like other camps. But maybe it was less religious that others, I dunno.

"But more time away from him would break my heart."

Cut the apron strings or you're going to raise a big time mamma's boy who won't be able to make it on his own.

Sticky

How long ago did you go to camp?

Have you seen the film "Jesus Camp"?

Pretty scary stuff.

"we've found 2 traditional away camps accessible from the DC area that also have "family camp". Mom, Dad and kids go together for anywhere from a long weekend to 10 days. We're hoping to try it for a long weekend in Sept. Seems like a great way to introduce younger kids to the camp experience, while sharing something that I loved as a child."

We've been doing a family camp for the last two years and it has been a wonderful experience for all of us. It's great for younger kids to have day-camp activities during the day and then have all the families spend time together in the afternoon/evening.

"Cut the apron strings or you're going to raise a big time mamma's boy who won't be able to make it on his own."

Bite me.

"IMHO, all day school plus aftercare vs. all day camp and/or a week or two away (camp, family) doesnt equal "parental outsourcing.""

Yes, many families need two incomes and place their children in daycare, aftercare and summer camp. However, that doesn't change the fact that they're outsourcing their parenting. Someone else is still raising their children most of the time.

As for summer camp. A few weeks could be considered balanced. But all or most of the summer is outsourcing, not balance.

"When my son is a little older, I will probably send him to a week long overnight camp over the summer. But more than that would be too much. Maybe not for him, but for me"

That's right, it's all about what would be too much for you, you, you!

I'm glad my sister and I frequently split summer vacation between both sets of grandparents in South India.

It gave us great memories - everything from exploring a rambling large place when the household shut down for siesta to hanging out in the kitchen and watching lunch being prepared the old fashioned way for a joint family of 12 people. The latter is the only reason I know how to make certain meals from scratch. They're now my comfort foods.

In my case, it's also probably the only reason I can do any math and write well in two languages. Because my retired grandparents had nothing to do but make sure a lazy child didn't get rusty from May 15 to whenever in the absence of regular homework and the presence of uninterrupted dress-up!

Last but not least, my family travelled for my dad's job, we lived places where my mom couldn't drive much less work, and I'm sure the 8 weeks* we were gone were the only break she got. As we got older, it's also probably the only break two girls got from their mom - not a bad thing when you're both girls are in their teens.

Would they do that had we lived in the US and where my mom would undoubtedly have been able to work? Dunno. I suspect we'd still have been packed off to the grandparents - who we now absolutely treasure. That's not impossible if you only see Grandma for a couple of weekends a year, but there's probably more room for it over 4 to 8 weeks.

Them's my two cents.

(* 8 weeks because we were in the Indian school system where summer vacation isn't as long as in the U.S.)

After raising my own family, I'm not sure I would want to take full responsibility of my grandchildren for several weeks either.

Posted by: to anon today | March 16, 2007 07:59 AM

Nice family values, to anon today.

Went to camp in the '80's. I haven't seen Jesus Camp yet, but I'm assuming it covers a very specific kind of camp. Not all religious camps (or religions) are the same of course. The one I went to was pretty mild, but still gave my parents confidence that the activities and kids' behavior would be pretty consistent with their values. (So mild, I guess, that it didn't take with me as an adult. Indoctrination failed, I guess.)

How old depends on the kid and where you plan on sending the kids. Eight weeks at a sleep over camp sounds a bit excessive to me. I spent four weeks at summer camp as a teen, had a lovely time but otherwise enjoyed the rest of my summer in un-scheduled bliss.

As for grandparents, my opinion is this.
Our parents have already raised their children. Grandkids are their reward. Grandparents should only be required to enjoy their grandkids, not spend time raising them. A couple of days is all I would ever dream of imposing on my parents or in-laws. Two to three days would, imo, be sufficient time for me any my spouse to have a "break" from the kiddos.

"However, that doesn't change the fact that they're outsourcing their parenting. Someone else is still raising their children most of the time."

Does it make a difference if my son attends only Bible camp and missionary training camp?

To 8:30:

The only summer camp I went to was a religious one and the one I went to was not all about hell, fire and brimstone. It was for a week spend the night style. Like Sticky's experience, yes, there were religious themes during the week but we did outdoor activities like archery, swimming, hiking, etc. We also had arts and crafts. As a child it was a lot of fun having "night swims." This was the only camp I went to since there are five kids in my family. Our church footed the bill. Going to camp was the highlight of my summer.

My oldest went to sleepaway camp last year for 1 week, at 9, her first time. They were in platform tents, 4 kids each. She went largely because some best friends were going, and by each friend requesting another in a cycle, they had for their tent a group of 4 friends from the same school, 2 of which were her day-to-day best friends. This was very nice as it was an extended shared bonding experience (though they each chose their own activities and they didn't overlap 100%) and the company at bedtime was very friendly and familiar. And now there's a greater closeness/common song- and experience-base between the girls. And the setting (Georgia mountains, with a large shallow stream with swimming hole) was beautiful.

She mostly loved camp. She was a little surprised how slow the mail was (while we mailed letters to her ahead of time, she got increasingly mad in her letters that we 'still' hadn't sent her the swim goggles which she forgot and asked us to send in her first letter). We only got one letter from her before we picked her up. She seemed to have one slightly homesick day, a rainy day when her horseback session got cancelled. Funny, since her letters were so delayed, she ran out to the mailbox, intercepted the letter she wrote us that day, and 'censored' it --- blacked out the comments she wrote when she was homesick and not wanting to return ;-)

She wants to go back this year. She'd ideally want to go longer, 2 weeks this year. But her 7yo little sister is begging to go, it's her top priority for the summer (the camp starts with 7yo). She's argued "Mom, think of all the work you can get done if we *both* go to camp!" and "Hey, you guys could have a honeymoon!" (not sure where she's heard about honeymoons . . .) She's counting down the days til summer so she can go to camp, she mentions it every day. So we will probably send both girls together to a 1-week session (not in the same tent, with the age difference, but the older sister would be around for occasional support, and it looks like 2 of my youngest's fellow Brownies and classmates have been talking about going to this camp this summer too, so I should get cracking and arrange a nice familiar tent for her). It's a great camp, formerly a Girl Scout camp but long ago privatized with a very loyal counselor base . . . but a bit expensive . . . ($600 one week, $1200/two, about 2-3 times the rate for the GS camps around here; 3 times the rate of a weekly day camp. It's definitely a luxury/indulgence.)

Let's see, Leslie. Both you and your husband did the away-from-home camp and survived, but you can't do the same thing for your kids? Hmm, sounds a little silly to me. God knows how you're going to handle college. Maybe you'll be one of those awful helicopter parents who calls their kids three times a day and won't let their kids GO.

foamgnome wrote: "day camps (which seem like glorified day cares or sports lessons)."

If I remember correctly, your DD is still very young (2-4?), so this answer is predicated on that assumption (and we all know the problem with those!). Anyway, DS#1's day camps have, until this summer, basically been an extension of his montessori preschool. We deliberately chose a preschool based camp to avoid the "glorified daycare" issue. That said, there aren't a lot of options for children under 3, so that may be what you're experiencing. The array of choices really opens up at 3 or 4 here in the DC area.

This summer, DS#1 will be going to a day camp that really works hard to be like what I think of as a traditional camp: outdoor swimming every day, horseback riding 1-2x/wk, sports, crafts, and all those crazy camp games (e.g., capture the flag). It's also right smack in the middle of suburban NoVa (Fairfax County).

I guess my point is that there are sooo many kinds of camp that it really makes a difference if one can afford the time to the research. (DH thought I was crazy for attending a "Camp Expo" at the mall in the beginning of January!)

Best of luck finding a great camp for your DD.

. And my kids are exquisitely well behaved

What are you smoking?

Emily: I know exactly what you are saying and I balance the time away with leaving work early when I can/leaving at 5 the rest of the time/lots of lazing around time on weekends and summer holidays (4th of July, memorial day/labor day.) Even working full time, you can have lots of lazy summer moments with your kids. We walk/bike to the neighborhood boat dock and fish. Sadly, although we live near the beach, we try to go to the beach/boardwalk only in May/September (full summer months are a nightmare/too crowded.)

But my kids also want time away/time with their grandparents/new camps and possible new friends. So it works out well.

Jessker

Stop already with the ignorant slamming of religious camps. It only shows how narrow your experience has been to assume all religious camps are like a single documentary movie. Do you think all criminals look like George Clooney, and his buddies in Ocean's Eleven?

Why is it that as soon as someone mentions religion, you jump to making derogatory statements lumping in the beliefs and camps of Episcopalians, Methodists, Pentecostals, Catholics, and Quakers with other non-denominational religious groups?

Some religious camps are more conservative and devote more time to religious themes, than others. Many have religion only as a scant backdrop, like YMCA camps where there's a bible verse on the wall in the gym but no one EVER mentions God at all. All religious camps aren't right for everyone, but then all non-religious camps aren't right for all kids either.

After raising my own family, I'm not sure I would want to take full responsibility of my grandchildren for several weeks either.

Nice family values, to anon today.

Gee, I was 35 when I had my second daughter. If she has a child at 28, I will be 71 when my grandchild is 8. Just being realistic here. I have great family values, IMO, but I don't think I want to take care of children for weeks on end in my 70's.

I wonder how old you are. I'm 51, and already I can see how much less energy I have than in my 30's and 40's.

"After raising my own family, I'm not sure I would want to take full responsibility of my grandchildren for several weeks either.
Posted by: to anon today | March 16, 2007 07:59 AM
Nice family values, to anon today"

Land's sakes! Talk about a life sentence! Do you really expect the free babysitting to go on as long as I am alive?

Are my great grandchildren going to show up at my nursing home in the summer?

Enough already.

Emily - I'm with you on this. It has nothing to do with being mama's boys/girls or being independent. My older kids have gone to camp (4H camp and band camp) for a week for a few summers now. They have had a blast. But even if we could afford to have them go for longer than that, I'm really wondering what the point is except to get them out of your hair for a longer period of time. There are plenty of enriching summer experiences where they can build independence right here in our town where they can also spend time with their family - time they don't get during the school year when their time is filled with school, homework, school events, practicing band instruments, and extracurriculars.

"She admitted to me when I was an adult, she did not really miss us at all. Even though that is tough to say, I can understand if I was a SAHM, it would be nice to have a break time. "

Foamgnome - I think it's sad that your mom felt this way. :o( "A break" should be a Saturday of shopping, lunch, and having your hair done. It shouldn't be *eight weeks* of child free time.

I went away to camp for as long as two weeks when I was about 10. I loved it, but I'm in no rush to send my kids away at this point. My oldest is just 6. We'll probably do some kind of day camp for a week this summer. I can see my parents volunteering to take my kids for a week or two beginning in a couple years.

Once they're old enough to do real work, we may be able to send them to spend a week or two at the farm my MIL grew up on (dh's uncle has it now, and he seems to approve of how we're raising our kids). I think that would be a priceless experience.

I know that kids do stupid things at camp, and thats part of the experience, but I worry that there seem to be more messed up kids around now, and so the stupid things might not be as innocent. How do you figure out if there's enough/appropriate supervision at a sleepaway camp?

"Anyone have long-term experience with one parent taking the kids somewhere, say to grandpa's house at the beach, for the summer while the other parent says home to work and drives to join the family on the weekends?"

Yes, it's been going on for decades in NYC. It's called "Daddy has a summer fling while the wife and kiddies go out of town"!

Posted by: | March 16, 2007 08:43 AM

Well, now we know what kind of scuzz-ball you are!

The jewish camps hardly have anything about fire and brimstone *smirk*. I think it will be great for the kids aand I for one will probably send the rugrats to one if we find one we love, which is a high probability. It is great to have a religious experience in nature, celebrating shabbat in the woods, etc. No talk of jesus there.

I think if my kids were really ready and and wanted to do this and I found a great overnight camp with good safety record, the I would do it. It probably would be the most expensive camp in the world! I think that it is a great experience for teenagers and helps them to mature. As for parents, we would miss our kids terribly but then they need to grow up, don't they?

P.S. I really don't understand the "outsourcing parenting" argument. How can I teach my kids everything they need to know without hiring teachers to do so? How is that outsourcing if the kids go to a camp where they have fun? Is education outsourcing too? I would rather them learn math and science in school than from me :-)

to anon at 8:49

No, we raise our kids. They spend time away from us (school/family/camp/daycare.) But we are always the parents.

Do you think when kids are in school full-time and do sports/activities after school that the teachers/coaches are raising the kids? Or is your bashing limited to parents of younger kids who work (for whatever reason)?

Jessker

WOH because we have to for a variety of reasons, personal fulfillment, financial, to keep job skills for the future, security in case of loss of spouse.

Throw in children and we have all the child-related responsibilities on top of work and home responsibilities. Love, guide, nurture, educate them, be sure to save for that college education.

30-40 years of work and school for ourselves before retirement, and then we are supposed to forget everything we have worked for to be available to give those same kids a break by babysitting for weeks on end? I say, fine if that's what you want, but realistic short visits and regular involvement (whether that be daily, weekly, or monthly) in your grandchildren's lives should be enough. And any grown child who resents their parents for not "taking their kids off their hands" for weeks at a time is completely unreasonable.

DD gets two camps a summer - one a church related camp, one week long, the other an Audubon Society sponsored ecology camp (also a week long). She has more friends from those than I had my entire childhood! It's great for her.

I wish I'd had the opportunities DD has when I was a kid - she's a lucky one. :-)

atlmom,
You have a great sense of humor!

And my kids are exquisitely well behaved

What are you smoking?

Posted by: | March 16, 2007 08:58 AM

This certainly tells us something about 8:58's values, and it's not good.

Foamgnome,

The day camp options definitely get more enriched as your kids get older (at least here in Atlanta, I'd expect a dense area like DC and suburbs would as well).

My kids' favorites have been: Circus camp (learning juggling, acrobatics, etc, with a final performance); Arts camps (day usually split between 2-4 artistic media --- pottery, clay, paint, pastels, etc; with a final portfolio viewing party); Horse camp (you guessed it, final show riding in the ring; this day camp is so hot and dusty but they love it); Soccer camp; Drama camp. Our main problem is the youngest impatiently waiting to age into the exciting camps her sister goes to . . . she counted down eagerly for both Circus Camp (age 5) and Horse Camp (age 6) . . . the plight of the little sister . . . (as you can see from my earlier post, this year the countdown is for sleepaway camp, it's always something ;-) )

"So who moved 3000 miles away? Can't really blame your parents for lack of relationship if you were the one who put the children so far away. After raising my own family, I'm not sure I would want to take full responsibility of my grandchildren for several weeks either."

My parents moved 3,000 miles away. They lived only a few hundred before. They moved closer to my sister and her kids stay the weekend many times a year. It's their issue--they chose to move and even if I did, what is your point?

"After raising my own family, I'm not sure I would want to take full responsibility of my grandchildren for several weeks either.
Posted by: to anon today | March 16, 2007 07:59 AM
Nice family values, to anon today"

Land's sakes! Talk about a life sentence!

Maybe people who consider their families a life sentence should reconsider having kids in the first place.

"Anyone have long-term experience with one parent taking the kids somewhere, say to grandpa's house at the beach, for the summer while the other parent says home to work and drives to join the family on the weekends?"

"Yes, it's been going on for decades in NYC. It's called "Daddy has a summer fling while the wife and kiddies go out of town"!

Posted by: | March 16, 2007 08:43 AM

Well, now we know what kind of scuzz-ball you are!"

You are confused. The cheating dads are the scuzz-balls, not me.

And my kids are exquisitely well behaved

What are you smoking?

Posted by: | March 16, 2007 08:58 AM

This certainly tells us something about 8:58's values, and it's not good.

Nope, don't smoke anything at all. But anyone who believes that their children behave "exquisitely" at all times are living by a river in Egypt.

I was a CIT (counselor in training) and a counselor for one co-ed secular camp and two religious camps in the Northeast. By FAR, the kids who went to the religious camp were more out of control and horny like you would not believe. I chalked it up to the forbidden fruit thing, but believe me that we counselors did not get a lot of sleep as we had to patrol the camp virtually 24-7 to ensure single sex cabins stayed that way and that the kids didn't find their way into the bushes. Not that it didn't happen at the secular camp, but a lot less. I was totally shocked. Your little Christian teenagers and tweens are not as innocent as you'd think!

"Nope, don't smoke anything at all. But anyone who believes that their children behave "exquisitely" at all times are living by a river in Egypt."

Stopped smoking weed in the late '60s.

My daughter is generally well behaved with a sweet personality, but she can get on a person's nerves. I limit her visits to relatives to a week, something about fish?

Snow is predicted in the DC area tonight. and I'm daydreaming about summer. Ain't that special?

Two income family here, so my kids have always gone to the same summer day camp. This year, though, they are both taking two weeks to attend the cub scout and girl scout camp. Still a day camp, but I thought it would be a good experience to meet new kids and experience new things. The girl scout camp has one overnight night. She can stay as long as she wants, and come home, or stay the night. If they stick with scouts, I will look into a week long camp for them. I went to a few camps as a kid, and while I don't really remember specifics, I do remember that they were fun.

I did have my kids spend a few days at a relativess farm. As repayment, her kids came here to spend a few days in the city. My younger dd did fine. My older ds did not do so well. He had difficulty adjusting to the changes - sleeping arrangements, food selection, and is generally not as easy going as dd. I had a feeling that would happen, but thought I should give him a chance.

Has anyone else had a bad experience?

"He had difficulty adjusting to the changes - sleeping arrangements, food selection, and is generally not as easy going as dd."

This is one of the reasons I sent my kids to camp - so they could learn how to adapt to a new environment.

Gee, how does a blog about kid's summer become so nasty?

In my early post, I stated that my kids are exquisitely well behaved. They are---feedback from teachers, family members and everyone else. So who is anyone, especially an anonymous troll, to doubt anything anyone states about their own life.

With regard to grandparents--many enjoy their grandchildren. Many have become their grandchildren's primary caretakers as a necessity. That is not what I've been talking about. I'm talking about perhaps babysitting once or twice a year while my husband and I go to a movie (my mother has refused) or to allow my school age children to visit for 1-2 weeks. I think my mother is pathetic and she'll reap what she sows. Despite my efforts, my children do not know her very well and their relationship is rather cold. It's my mother's doing. YOu would think that when they chose to move 3,000 miles they would have made more of an effort. They NEVER call to talk to the kids---just me. When I become a grandparent, I will make every effort to create a relationship and spend as much time as I can with them. That's what families do.

To Women today:

Well said. My mom is older, and she and my dad raised a big family. She loves her alone time now to read, do crosswords, etc. She does live a long plane ride away (her choice), and my kids are pretty young so we haven't gone to visit her yet. She has visited us about once a year, and when she visits she is a guest in our home; I don't expect her to pitch in. She loves to read to the kids (and they love snuggling with her while she does it!). She's been kind enough to babysit occasionally while visiting so I could go to a drs. appt. or DH and I could have a dinner out after putting the kids to bed.

I've been thankful for the help while but would not expect it.

Oh boy! Had a lot of sexual firsts at Bible camp!

Ah, the memories of spiked bug juice!

"Maybe people who consider their families a life sentence should reconsider having kids in the first place"

I would have reconsidered if I had also known I was going to be trapped in a spirit crushing, soul sucking,loveless marriage for more than 20 years for the sake of the kids.

You don't make the rules.(Thank God)

Is Bible camp anything like Band camp?

"However, my husband went to eight weeks of sleepaway camp starting when he was seven."

WOW is all I have to say.

"With regard to grandparents--many enjoy their grandchildren. Many have become their grandchildren's primary caretakers as a necessity"

And some do not. Whatever the reason, they are GRAND parents, not parents and don't have the same duties and responsibilites as parents and they don't have to live up to other's expectations.

Thanks KLB.

Being from the north, each camp would have its own bus system, and would pick kids up at the house. Mom didn't have to drive all over creation and it didn't add to traffic. In atlanta, they don't do that and I feel guilty that we are choosing day camps that we can drive to easily, or that are easier for us (we did choose a camp that ends at 4 tho, assumning we can replace the nanny). I'm sure my 5 YO will be fine wherever, but I do wish we had more drive friendly/traffic friendly options.

Proximity to grandparents doesn't automatically mean that you will have built in babysitters. My parents live in the same town I do and are 82 and 76 years old. They occasionally (maybe 1-2 times a year) babysat for me when my older ones were younger but I haven't asked them to do so in years because I don't think it's fair to them because of their age. My brother and sil, on the other hand, leave their children with them quite often, including overnight. My parents don't seem to mind but I think it's a problem, especially since they do have other options for childcare.

My point is that my children still have a relationship with them. We just visit them *together* or they stop by our house to chat. We camp with them in the summer. We spend holidays together.

If you're upset that your parents moved far from you, then invite them to visit you or go to visit them and spend time with them along with your children. Don't ask "can you come out to visit so John and I can go away for the weekend?" Don't go to visit them and then ask if you can leave the kids with them while you go to a movie.

My ils moved about 1000 miles from us and when they visit, we want to see them just as much as our children do. We don't see their visits as a chance to have a free babysitter, but as a chance to spend time with my husband's parents whom we love and care about.

Yes, 09:30 AM , that's what I was trying to do, too - help him learn to adjust. But, I think what happened instead was that he was yelled at for two days for not doing the things expected of him. And that made him more stubborn and less likely to adjust. Maybe a camp with experienced counselers would have helped him better. I dunno....

"And some do not. Whatever the reason, they are GRAND parents, not parents and don't have the same duties and responsibilites as parents and they don't have to live up to other's expectations."

Obviously you didn't read all that I wrote. I wasn't talking about the same duties and responsibilities as parents. I'm talking about grandparents who obviously do not want a relationship with their grandchildren. The children lose out. It's about developing relationships---babysitting once or twice a year or having the grandchildren at your house for 1-2 weeks during the summer is not parent duty.

I bet the same trolls who are writing about how grandparents shouldn't be expected to watch grandchildren are the same ones who are criticising parents for sending their kids to camp or to using babysitters to care for them while parents are at work. I have an idea, we can all stay home--no more people in the workforce.

I'm sending my 7 year old DD to summer camp for a week. She's begging to go. It is the traditional kind: it has horseback riding and archery and canoe -- she's dying to do it.

My boys aren't ready, and one of them is my daughter's twin! It's not age, it's disposition.

My parents are very young (my mother had me when she was 20, she's just 60 now). We live by them now, but are about to move far away. Likely my parents will take the children for a short time during the summer. Possibly my mom will come up and see us and take them for a week or so at our house during the summer. It is just a nice way to spend time with the grandparents, which you don't get back.

And as far as grandparents go, there is an age factor, I suppose -- but like camp and kids, I'd say it isn't the age, but the disposition. Some people age beautifully and, while it is tiring, never feel more energetic and alive than when caring for children. Others were never particularly cut out for it, and we become only MORE of what we were as we age, not less. All I can see is my mother running around the back yard with a water gun, chasing the boys, or sitting on the floor playing barbies with my daughter (of course, I have to help her get up!). My mother needs her aortic valve replaced, she would rather get winded running around than sit on her butt!! HER mother, my grandmother (80), also begs to have them come over to play. Standing on her toes to haul her up by both hands off the floor after board games with all my kids is one of those funny things I'll always remember about my own granny now.

I work too much. I need a more reasonable life so that I won't have to cobble together summers for them that involve so little down time. Down time is important, and I'm hoping that this particular move will give us more of that.

I went to sleepaway camp for 6 weeks every summer starting when I was 10. It was an amazing experience, and although I remember getting homesick a few times that first summer, I wouldn't have traded it for the world. I did, however, see campers as young as 6 and 7 who basically cried the whole summer. Each child is different, but that is awfully young. I think 9 or 10 is a good age.

I also spent at least 3 weeks each summer at my grandparents' beach house and LOVED it. I grew up extremely close to them, even though I only saw them summers and at Christmas. If given the choice, I'd send my kids to their grandparents over camp.

As another poster noted, however, grandparents are older, or are working longer. My mom still works and my parents-in-law have health problems. It breaks my heart that my kids may never have the experience I had, but I console myself with the thought that I can give that experience to their kids. Not much we can do about others' choices, but we do control our own!

"But, I think what happened instead was that he was yelled at for two days for not doing the things expected of him. And that made him more stubborn and less likely to adjust. Maybe a camp with experienced counselers would have helped him better. I dunno..."

You did say cub scouts, right? I don't recall offhand how old cub scouts are, but maybe it's just an age/maturity thing, and he'll be ready to try again in another year or so. Some kids just take longer.

To mom of four,
I have never considered my parents to be babysitters. I think they watched my daughter for 2 hours once. I have a nanny and we enjoy being with our children. But for my mother to declare that she won't ever be with my kids unless I am there to be ridiculous. My parents are "young" old, in good health and my father still works--part time. So this isn't "they're frail issue". We invite them to come all the time, but they choose to come when it is convenient only for them--and then complain when we have other things going on (work, kid's things). They're retired and more flexible so coming without regard to our availability is selfish.

So my situation is not what you think. I have selfish parents who are cold and always have been. I just feel sorry for my children who do not have the benefit of having a large, warm extended family.

"Gee, how does a blog about kid's summer become so nasty?"

Hee hee, check out the new guy.

I remember going to my Grandparents house in Ohio at a very young age. There was a huge apple tree in the back yard that I could climb. The last time I visited their house, I was about 12 years old, and the apple tree was so small, I could reach the top branches of where, as a child, I used to climb up to.

What I remember most was the smells of the house. The pantry smelled like cinamin, the closets smelled like moth balls, a strong odor of leather came from Grandpa's dresser, the back patio smelled like honeysuckle, the garage like saw dust and oil, and the best part was the kitchen that always smelled like apple pie from Grandma's baking.

"My parents are "young" old, in good health and my father still works--part time. So this isn't "they're frail issue". We invite them to come all the time, but they choose to come when it is convenient only for them--and then complain when we have other things going on (work, kid's things). They're retired and more flexible so coming without regard to our availability is selfish."

My ils are also "young old" and aren't frail either, and they made the choice to move 1000 miles away from us. They're retired and have a great deal of flexibility, but they come to visit when it's good for them - why shouldn't they?? It's *their* life, not mine....they spent a great deal of that life raising my husband and his brother, and I have no problem with them doing *anything they want* in their retirement.

"But for my mother to declare that she won't ever be with my kids unless I am there to be ridiculous."

So what exactly is the problem with you spending time with your parents and kids together? Do you really think the only way your children will develop a relationship with their grandparents is to be left alone with them? Are you that overbearing that the relationship can't grow with you in the house?

"It's about developing relationships---babysitting once or twice a year or having the grandchildren at your house for 1-2 weeks during the summer is not parent duty.

I bet the same trolls who are writing about how grandparents shouldn't be expected to watch grandchildren are the same ones who are criticising parents for sending their kids to camp or to using babysitters to care for them while parents are at work. I have an idea, we can all stay home--no more people in the workforce."

Actually, I guess I am one of those trolls because I don't think grandparents should be expected to babysit. BTW, I work full time, kids have gone to daycare, and my mother did babysit for me occasionally, such as school closed days or my wedding anniversary. I always told her that I would take off work if she wasn't interested or had other plans. She loved her grandchildren and had a great relationship with them. She offered to keep them overnight sometimes because she wanted to be with them. We only lived 20 miles apart so it was easy to see her. She would invite us over, and then once we got there, she would encourage me to "go shopping or something" so she could be with her GKs.

What she did is still a far cry from having them for 2 weeks at a time. But 2 weeks is closer to 'parent duty' than occasional babysitting.

To 2terrificboys (and to anon at 9:07) -

I grew up in a beach town in Maine and all of the summer kids had daddies in Boston or NY who would arrive on Friday. There were special (more expensive) camps for them (we had local parks and rec) where they learned sailing, tennis, etc.

When I was in college, I taught swimming at both the local and summer kids day camps and was amazed at the difference. The summers all wore their Lilly and Ralph Lauren bathing suits and the mommies and kids all gossiped about whose dad was banging which secretary.

The local campers wore target shorts, played softball, and were blissfully ignorant of such adult behavior.

I grew close with many of the summer kids who'd return every year, and nearly all of their parents had divorced by the time we went to college.

My daughter (13) has been going to overnight camp since she was 8, and LOVES it. She spends most of the winter looking forward to it. As much as she loves it, though, she says she would never go for more than 4 weeks. This upcoming summer she says she is "too old" for day camp, and just wants to "hang out" with her friends and be a "normal" teen. This makes me uneasy. We do belong to a pool that she could bike to, but that much unstructured time could be trouble. Any suggestions for the 14-15 crowd - too old for camp but too young to work?

So who is anyone, especially an anonymous troll, to doubt anything anyone states about their own life.

nope, not anon troll, 8:58.

If you think that this will always be true about the behaviour of your children, I suggest that you read Growing Up with you Children from 2 days ago and keep your eyes open. Read how many "good" and well behaved kids raised hell without the parent's knowledge.

"Actually, I guess I am one of those trolls because I don't think grandparents should be expected to babysit."

I interpreted anon today's comments totally differently - doesn't sound like specific babysitting expectations, but a hope that the grandparents would show some interest in their GKs. Babysitting might be one way to do that. I'm assuming there's a whole lot more to that relationship than anon today has posted here.

Both my sons have been going to an 8-week traditional sleepaway camp in Maine since they were 10. This is my 15-year-old's last year there. My sons love living and playing with kids--all boys--their own age and cool counselors. They swim in a lake, canoe, learn archery, climb mountains, and just have good wholesome fun. They're there long enough to settle in and feel at home--and to make real friends. At camp, they can roam independently from field to cabin to supper in the dining hall. They write great letters home.
D.C. is hot in the summer and, be honest, it's not all about catching fireflies and bike riding. It's often about staying inside in air conditioning to avoid the swelter or driving to the malls. My kids really didn't like going to a patchwork of camps when they spent summers at home. They were never there long enough to make real friends and the commute there often made for a long, hot day.
We miss the boys during the summer and camp is expensive. But both boys appreciate the gift we gave them of living (safely) amid beautiful scenery and independence. They have a wonderful time and think kids who don't get to go to sleepaway camp are missing out.
We parents have to let go a little bit so our kids can learn on their own.

to Loren: does your daughter show any interest in babysitting? 13 is a good age to be a mother's helper...

I would have LOVED to go to sleep away summer camp. I begged, but money was too tight.

I went to day camp from first grade until 5th. 6th on I was home by myself. I took pottery classes and art classes, but nothing all day, everyday. I got a job when I started driving at 16, but only part time.

I smoked and watched soap operas all day from age 12-18. Not good.

I shoudl have gone to a camp for older kids until I was 16.

I wonder if fewer children went away to camp during summer 2002 than 2001? I know that I didn't want my children more than an hour away for quite a while after 9/11.

Folks without children are people, too. We can remain in the workforce.

"Any suggestions for the 14-15 crowd - too old for camp but too young to work?"

Volunteer work, a summer sport (swim team, softball, tennis), classes (art, music), the library? And 14-15 year olds are not necessarily too young to work - there's berry picking, lifeguarding (15 year olds), babysitting (the mothers helper idea was a good one), yardwork, housecleaning. My son worked last summer at age 14 for Parks and Rec on their youth corp - they hire 14-16 year olds to work in their daycamps and doing park maintence work.

She wouldn't have to be "structured" for 8 hours a day every day, but you could find some structured/supervised activities and leave her time to go to the pool and hang out with her friends.

During college, I work at an academic summer program for high schoolers. The kids were more apt to spend their free time with a Rubik's Cube rather than hiking, but for most, those three weeks represnted the time of their lives. At last, the nerdlets were amongst their own. We had kids as young as 10 attending our programs and perhaps it was because we were on a university campus, but they seemed extraordinarily young. Staff had to escort them everywhere. I had built in restroom pit stops into my group's routine (for example, we always went before AND after a meal!) These camps are expensive, but for the parents of the highly gifted, I think they are an investment in their children's intellectual AND social growth.

"So what exactly is the problem with you spending time with your parents and kids together? Do you really think the only way your children will develop a relationship with their grandparents is to be left alone with them? Are you that overbearing that the relationship can't grow with you in the house?"

When my mother declared the above, I hadn't asked her to be along with the kids or ever asked her to babysit. She frequently dumped us off on her mother (which was great--loved my grandmother), but she decided she was going to make this declaration even though she wasn't asked.

And I have spent plenty of time with my parents with my children. My mother is a selfish unfeeling person. I had surgery soon after giving birth to my daughter but insisted on going out to eat for every meal and she got upset when I tried to bow out (sitting in a restaurant post surgery was not my idea of a good time).

And a writer above is right--there is nothing wrong with spending some time with family without other family members there. My mother's concern was god forbid a diaper needed to be changed (she never did this for either of my kids, I never asked) or one needed to be fed. She was a lazy mother and an even lazier grandmother. Why are people defending her?

I have plenty of friends with warm and caring parents who relish their time with their grandchildren. Why is it such a crime to want this for my children too?

"If you think that this will always be true about the behaviour of your children, I suggest that you read Growing Up with you Children from 2 days ago and keep your eyes open. Read how many "good" and well behaved kids raised hell without the parent's knowledge."

My children are not perfect, but one is a teen another school age so they've had plenty of time to mess up and haven't. I couldn't ask for kids with easier dispositions and nicer people. I expect that the teen years can be a problem, but so far they have their heads on straight, haven't succumbed to peer pressures and are happy people. To expect that that will change is ridiculous. Not all kids are awful.

"Folks without children are people, too. We can remain in the workforce."

I don't get it, what's your point? I was talking about retirement aged persons not working age people.

DC Yuppie, I went to one of these "Nerd Camps" when I was an early teen. Some of the best times of my life, and I still have strong friendships from the camp.

Here's an interesting article about it from Slate. http://www.slate.com/id/2146134

The essential paragraph from the article: "Everyone seemed very smart. But what I remember is less the hum of the quadratic equation in the air--though there was plenty of that--than the sense of relief at finally being in a place where people felt, in some sense, normal. It was a place where kids could be cool without having to downplay their interests."

You're talking about CYT! It is a great program. My teen loves it. They do have scholarships for kids who qualify, but can't affort it.

anon today:

I'm not necessarily defending your mother, but just responding to the idea that a grandparent should have to take their grandchildren for 2 weeks in the summer and babysit for smaller amounts of time in between in order to have a relationship with the grandchildren. You kept saying that your children are missing out on a relationship because your parents won't take them for 2 weeks or babysit while you go out to a movie. And my point was that the relationship can still exist even without the babysitting. It sounds like your children don't have a close relationship with your parents for reasons completely independent of not spending time alone with them. And also - making the choice to live thousands of miles away and visit on their terms doesn't necessarily mean that they're selfish. They might be selfish, but I don't think that those decisions on their own mean selfishness.

Out of curiosity, why are you anonymous today? I understand not wanting to be attacked but a) you have been attacked anyway ;o) and b) if you are at peace with your feelings on the subject and don't think you should change those feelings, why should it matter if we know who you are?

You are so right--that paragraph says it all. My kid feels so at home there--he can be himself. Its so nice to hear positives from a former attendee.

To the person who asked about supervision at camp, I can only speak about my experiences.

The kids stay in a cabin of 8. There is one senior counselor, one junior counselor, and one CIT. The kids go to all the meals and group acitivites (camp-outs, productions) together with the counsleors. The only time they are alone iis when they're walking to classes (I think 6 a day). The counselors walk some kids to classes if they're all the way across camp. And counselors have a list of campers in each class, so if one is missing they look for them. The kids in mini-camp (8) are together all day. The kids in senior village (13 and 14) have more unstructured time.

In general, it's really safe.

My 14 yr old daughter goes on a 2 week sailing trip where she with other crew members actually do the work of getting boat from MD to MA. This was last year and I am sure she will be doing it again this year. She loved it!

My 4 year old goes to see his nana in NC the last 2 weeks of August.

"You kept saying that your children are missing out on a relationship because your parents won't take them for 2 weeks or babysit while you go out to a movie."

That's not quite what I said--it's what people are reading into it. By moving 3,000 miles away and then not wanting to spend time getting to know their grandchildren, my parents demonstrate to me and my children that they are not interested in their grandchildren. Even when we visit them--they'll watch a ball game instead of interacting with us. My kids notice this and I think it is hurtful. Also, most people I know have parents who love to spend time with their grandchildren. It's not such an odd concept. In fact, I think it is the more common thing.

And the blog brought up sending kids to the grandparents. For us, it would have to be for more than a couple of days b/c it's so far away. Two weeks is a random number.

To expect that that will change is ridiculous. Not all kids are awful.

Posted by: | March 16, 2007 10:30 AM

I never said that all kids were awful. I said to keep your eyes open. But also you admit to yourself that your kids are not "exquisite" all the time.

I was the goody-goody in my family, to this day my siblings kid me about being so good growing up. I know different, my parents do not.

"And my point was that the relationship can still exist even without the babysitting."

Grandparents and other adult relatives develop a different relationship with a child when they are together for extended periods of time without parental involvement. The child turns to the grandparent or other relative for needs otherwise typically met by her parents. True relationships blossom because there's no filter and no parent jumping in to meet certain needs or to impose rules from home on the relationship.

One example. When my daughter visits her aunts for a week each summer, she stays up late with them and watches Murder She Wrote every night. It's very naughty because she's up late, eating unhealthy snacks, and it's not programming we would permit her to see at our house. It's her little secret experience with her 70 year old aunts and they both treasure it immensely. If I were there, the illicit fun would be gone.

Yes, kids can have relationships with grandparents without staying overnight or being without a parent, but the relationship that develops isn't nearly as close as the relationship between kids and relatives with whom they have extended, non-parentally-supervised time.

If there is one thing this blog proves, it that opinions are like @$$holes, everyone has one, most really stink.

It is amazing to see how snarky and judgmental some folks can be about summer plans for the kids. Kudos to those of you with helpful, productive comments.

"My mother's concern was god forbid a diaper needed to be changed (she never did this for either of my kids, I never asked) or one needed to be fed. She was a lazy mother and an even lazier grandmother. Why are people defending her?

I have plenty of friends with warm and caring parents who relish their time with their grandchildren. Why is it such a crime to want this for my children too?"

It is not a crime to want this for your children. But what good will it do to want it? You have a certain relationship with your mother, and obviously, this will impact your children. You are not going to change your parents, and lamenting the situation isn't going to do a lot of good either. You just have to accept your parents for what they are and take whatever positive things you can from it. I can tell you this. Your children will pick up on it if you feel that somehow, their grandparents love them less than they should. If the grandparents don't want to babysit, they shouldn't have to. It sounds like they still visit your family. and and you can still see that time as positive if you are not holding on to a grudge because they won't babysit. Your children will see this in whatever light you give it.

My grandparents preferred to have us one at a time, rather than the three of us at once. One set preferred to take us on special trips or activities. When my brother was 7, they took him and my older cousins to a dude ranch in Montana. I, at 5, was deemed to little to go (I was so disappointed!), so they instituted the tradition of taking each grandchild to Disney when they were 5. At older ages, we took other trips. I think it was really important to have the one-on-one time (we also saw them with the whole family, but to have real alone time without even the siblings along made you feel really special and like they really wanted to have a relationship with you personally.) I will, say, though, that the one time they agreed to take all three of us for 2 weeks one summer so my parents could go on vacation without us, they did require my parents to also hire a babysitter, which my parents thought was totally reasonable. So maybe people can foster relationships with grandparents by giving them time with only 1 child at a time, rather than sending all of them together. It also did help that we usually went somewhere or did some kid-appropriate activity with them, so we weren't just sitting around their house bored.

It is amazing to see how perfect some people's children are but yet how horrible their parents are.

"Out of curiosity, why are you anonymous today? I understand not wanting to be attacked but a) you have been attacked anyway ;o) and b) if you are at peace with your feelings on the subject and don't think you should change those feelings, why should it matter if we know who you are?"

I'm not the person who you are addressing, but I've posted anonymously at times on this and other blogs. There are various reasons why I or someone else might do that. Here are two:

1. As most bloggers understand, a moniker tend to develop a "personality" that might reflect only part of the personality of the full human being who uses the moniker. It just kind of happens that way. It's natural. So when I have a moniker and have been in a rut of posting similar sorts of things, and want to try something new and fresh, I might post anonymously. Depending how the post goes, that kind of thing might develop into a new moniker, or it might not.

I don't think you can say that using multiple monikers for different aspects of your personality is morally wrong, because one reason people choose to do this is to safeguard themselves against ID.

2. When I am new to a blog, I might post anonymously until I decide if I want to commit to hanging around. If I like the blog after participating anonymously, then I will introduce myself. This isn't the same as trolling, it is just testing the waters.

I don't think you can say this is wrong either, it's just someone new taking their time to join in fully.

In general, it is better to assume people have reasons for doing what they do, other than "because they're a jerk." Very often, there is a perfectly good reason, and the person being judgmental just didn't have all the information.

"Any suggestions for the 14-15 crowd - too old for camp but too young to work?"

I disagree that 14 - 15 is too old for camp, as long as you avoid the word, "camp". Many technology, math, art, and sports camps for this age are fun, tend to be self-directed and less structured and permit teens to hang with kids with common interests rather than their friends that keep them in the "cool" box. Maybe it depends on where you live, but we have many options for teens that are interesting --certainly more than sitting in your house watching soaps, IMing friends, or spending the 61st day in a row at the pool talking about how fat you are.

It is amazing to see how perfect some people's children are but yet how horrible their parents are.

Posted by: Snarky Today | March 16, 2007 11:00 AM

what you think is horrible, I'd say is honest, and my guess is you have many traits we'd think are "horrible" too if you had the courage to post them.

"I have selfish parents who are cold and always have been."

That's my whole family. I accept them as they are and don't have unrealistic expectations. They are not going to change so I don't waste time hoping for something that will never happen.

Words to heed from Carolyn Hax:

"It's understandable, and certainly not uncommon, that others' rudeness brings out your worst. But that's another great impulse to resist, if for no other reason than it only deepens the muck. And it is possible to override this impulse. You can:
Be civil, patient, gracious;
Assume nothing;
Tread softly;
Deflec