If this is Thursday 3/29 column it is dated wrong and in the wrong place.

CMAC,

What you are doing being up so early?

3rd

I'll get the glue factory on the phone. I hear they're takin' $1.35/lb for dead horse.

If "the spirit is willing, but the system is weak," I'd say the spirit needs to get in line with its willingness and step up. Systems don't change themselves, people have to change them, and because it's often "against type" - men wanting (needing) more family friendly policies probably changes workplace environments more quickly than females do.

Nothing "motivates" a dad to "step up" like having a wife who works outside of the home. When you have to be an active participant in child-rearing, you are an active participant. You learn to set limits at work (as far as hours, as far as travel, as far as weekends). Sometimes, the working wife stresses me out, but I know I'm a better father because of it.

LOL at vet. Certainly is a dead horse here- and it's taken quite a flogging. I'm surprised it's not decomposed into dust yet.

In any event... sounds like we are supposed to do more with less. Work more, make more money, take care of kids, and do more chores around the house... as we concluded the LAST time we pummeled this deceased equine, at least we get the big piece of chicken. Maybe we DO need to have 4 day work weeks...

more redundant redundant inane prattle. Blah. If I just regurgitated the same post over and over again, could I get a paycheck from the Washington Post too? ;-P

This is a good approach to a problem that we often debate. Kathleen's point is well made, and I'm glad that Brian pointed out that family friendly policies could very easily widen the gender gap.

Where there is a family leave policy in place, it applies to both men and women, so the issue is not that women get an unfair amount of time. The issue is that men don't take it for various reasons. Another issue is that few workplaces offer leave.

The truth of the matter is that family-friendly policies are made with moms in mind. Of course men can take the time, but they are probably dicouraged from doing so. So I think it will just take a few more men with b*lls like cantaloupes to take the leave and make no apologies. They will set examples.

The second issue will be addressed (IMO) when the older generation is retired and more progressive policies are put in place.

"...but fall back into a "neotraditional arrangement" when they hit the modern realities..."

Sounds to me like women need to do better in demanding that men/husbands/whatever do their part. I hate it when this debate is couched in the terms of men 'helping' -- it sounds like they're doing that whopping hour of cleaning as a kind-hearted gesture of assistance.

Forget that. Men made the household, too, and they can clean it. Women need to take the energy they waste waste whining about how they have to do everything around the house and use it to make men do their part.

sorry- I'm cranky...need more sleep because of all the demands placed on me. waaaaah. ;-P lol

The words of today are: vexed, egalitarian, and neotraditional.

neo- new
traditional- old
used in a sentence: ...fall back into a "neotraditional arrangement" so we fall back into the new-old arrangement. wtf?

Any old word can be made new by adding "neo" in front of it and putting in quotation marks. It is the "neotrendy" thing to do. :-P

I think I need some neocoffee for my neonausia and when I am done with it I will check to see how far we have wandered from this neoblather on "neopaternal"/ "neoparental" "neoresponsibilities"
Dang, I am such an @$$ when I haven't had sleep. LOL

"sounds like we are supposed to do more with less. Work more, make more money, take care of kids, and do more chores around the house... as we concluded the LAST time we pummeled this deceased equine, at least we get the big piece of chicken."

Chris, just be glad that you're only "expected" to keep the kid alive while you watch it. Be happy that you are held to the same level as your children in terms of chores ("just don't burn dinner, just don't bleach the clothes"). Be glad that you are expected to "help" around the house, not keep it spotless AND have dinner on the table AND look perfect AND have perfect kids AND get the family to work/school/sports on time. And when those don't happen, be glad that no one is pointing the finger at you for screwing up because you decided to work instead of stay at home, or because you stayed at home and drank Starbucks instead of raising the kids. Enjoy that big piece of chicken because we have to eat salad instead to lose that baby weight or to stay pretty so you don't go sleep with the secretary.

From ArlingtonDad: "Nothing "motivates" a dad to "step up" like having a wife who works outside of the home."

I totally agree.

If women would help out more with the lawn-mowing, gutter cleaning and car maintenance, we dads could have more time with the kids. So girls, don't you think its your turn to step up to the plate?

Enjoy that big piece of chicken because we have to eat salad instead to lose that baby weight or to stay pretty so you don't go sleep with the secretary.

Wow, ever think about being the secretary rather than the wife with kids?

Changes take time. I am raising my two sons to help out around the house-with more responsibility as they get older. It is mandatory. When the 5 YO complains we explain to him that he is a part of the household and needs to pitch in.

Dh helps out too it really is about 50 50. He does more sixing and I do more worrying about dinner, but it does even out.

My husband grew up in a house where his mom & his sister did everything. The men didn't lift a finger for cooking, cleaning, laundry, etc. My house was the opposite...it didn't matter if you were a boy or a girl you got a turn on kitchen duty and we all did our own laundry starting around age 9 or 10.

My husband and I had been dating for several months and I made him dinner at my house. When the meal was over, he got up from the table and went to the couch. I cleared my own plate and joined him on the couch. A little while later he noticed his empty plate still on the table. He got up and cleared his plate. I didn't say a word but he got the message, loud and clear. A couple years of dating and seven years of marriage later, he helps around the house a lot. He does occasionally ask what I want him to help with but mostly he just knows what needs to be done and we take care of it as a team. As a rule, I don't criticize what he has done or do it over.

what is "sixing"?

If women would help out more with the lawn-mowing, gutter cleaning and car maintenance, we dads could have more time with the kids. So girls, don't you think its your turn to step up to the plate?

Posted by: Gen-x Dad | March 29, 2007 09:03 AM

Please. Or course mowing the lawn once a week for 6 months of the year is equivalent to cooking dinner every night all the time. But fine, I'll trade.

>>If women would help out more with the lawn-mowing, gutter cleaning and car maintenance, we dads could have more time with the kids.>>

Talk about a dead horse. Lawn mowing 1x a week for ~6 months a year. Gutter cleaning, 1 hour, 2x a year. Car maintenance--what, taking it to Jiffy Lube every few months? You should be embarrassed to even offer up this tired old argument. Raising a family and running a household is a day-in-day-out responsibility. Kids need to be fed every day. Groceries need to be bought every week. Clothes need to be washed every few days. The house needs to be tidied every day and cleaned every week. Dishes need to be washed every day. Homework needs to be supervised every night. Baths need to be given every night. DOn't talk to me about the damn gutters.

To GenX Dad "If women would help out more with the lawn-mowing, gutter cleaning and car maintenance, we dads could have more time with the kids." Yes, women should help with these seasonal, much rarer than daily cleaning/cooking/washing/ironing tasks. But if a lawn needs to be mowed once a week and cooking/washing is done daily/every-other-daily, maybe there's some middle ground to both try helping in new areas.

Who has better bedroom bingo? Families with SAHMs, SAHDs, or to working parents?

I think we (parents, Americans, people) have to approach this gender inequity from several directions.

One approach is corporate - finding ways to convince American businesses to offer more flexible work hours.

The second approach is to work to create carefully crafted laws that allow families to thrive.

And the third approach is to change the social climate so that involved dads are the norm and anything else is looked at askance (rather than the other way around).

EquallySharedParenting.com focuses specifically on the personal approach to gender equality. We want to show couples who are interested in gender equality in their own families HOW this can be done, what needs to be sacrificed (currently) and what a great lifestyle this is for both men and women.

I think that the more organizations, individuals and print/internet material speak to the value of equality from the man's perspective, the more men will consider it truly valuable and worth reaching for - past all the current barriers. If we wait for government or corporate fixes to trickle down to our own individual family situations, we could be waiting a long time!

I think that groups like MomsRising need to address dads too. I understand why they are focusing on mothers - and fully support them. But there ought to be a way to harness the power of American dads for political and corporate change too. That way, all parents are fighting on the same team.

Finally, I think that lobbying for paid family leaves (beyond the very early infancy stage) may be barking up the wrong tree. If we achieved gender equality, we would have far less need for parental leaves and we'd avoid the fear that those leaves would simply be used by women to further the gender gap.

Lots more about all of this at www.equallysharedparenting.com, if you are interested - I welcome you to add to the discussion there too!

The spirit is willing, but the system is weak.

WAH PUDDIN'. Sounds like a big fat excuse to me. (I'm in a very cranky mood this morning, so you'll have to pardon me.)

What are we supposed to discuss here? If fathers would help out more if some conditions in their (work) environment changed??

Would fathers drink less beer if only it wasn't sold at the neighborhood store?

Would overweight people weigh less if only they didn't sell candy at the supermarket?

Would wives nag less if only their husbands made fewer mistakes?

Would it be possible for Brian to come up with more interesting topics?

Oops that is supposed to be fixing not sixing.

I have no power tools.

What are we supposed to discuss here? If fathers would help out more if some conditions in their (work) environment changed??

Would fathers drink less beer if only it wasn't sold at the neighborhood store?

Would overweight people weigh less if only they didn't sell candy at the supermarket?

Would wives nag less if only their husbands made fewer mistakes?

Would it be possible for Brian to come up with more interesting topics?

Posted by: What if? | March 29, 2007 09:12 AM

Good point!!!!!! Why should people take responsibility for their own actions when there's always someone to blame.

Brian

"suggesting that fathers today are more engaged in family life and more willing to put work second"

Trying to drum up another phony war?

Most people come home from work, eat dinner, and spend the rest of the evening sacked out in front of the boob tube. It has been that way since the 1950s.

The only thing new is that now people can spend their evenings with the internet, checking out the porn and gambling sites.

Not sure that fathers are more engaged in family life, unless TV and the internet count.

Most people in my area are home from work by 5 pm and have sufficient leave time for personal use. There are no reasons to choose between family life and work.

I don't have an extremely balanced life myself so I have no intention of submitting a guest blog. But here are some topics I'd like to see, Leslie and Brian (apologies if these have already been covered in the past):

Balancing ethnic/religious traditions with the demands of secular contemporary life

Adoptions: what is the child told about the birth family; how are inter-racial adoptions handled?

Gifted kids: why is everyone's child gifted all of a sudden, what does it mean to the child to be labelled this way, and does it change the way the child is parented?

"Sounds to me like women need to do better in demanding that men/husbands/whatever do their part"

Great idea! Have the women turn into nagging, whining shrews. Then wonder why the infidelity and divorce rates are so high!

Maybe we DO need to have 4 day work weeks...

Let's do that, cuz then we the people in India and China take all of our jobs because they are willing to work, you will have TONS of time to be with the kids --- in your double wide.

Actually, I think Gen-X Dad makes a good point, broadly viewed:

Perhaps Moms are falling back into their traditional roles and that encourages Dads to do the same.

Something for Moms to remember: the only behavior you can change is your own!

Case in point: when my son was born my husband read somewhere that Dad's should take a bath with baby. So he did. I never did baths, and can't say that I minded that!

But - the bath was at night, not always when or as frequently as I would have given it. The bathroom was often a big splashy mess afterwards. Twice as many towels got used. The baby wasn't always quite as clean as he might have been. Still, baby is graduating from college this spring and doesn't smell bad that often, so it all worked out.

So what did I do? I shut my mouth about how I thought a bath should be given.

Before Moms start to complain I think reviewing your own behaviors is the place to start. Get Dad to help, and then let go so he has no excuses. When #1 was three and son #2 came along, #1 didn't think anybody but Daddy should do baths. Once the kid expected Dad to do it then I didn't have to nag.

LOL!
Would writers have better articles if the education system was better?

Would the horse come back to life if we let it die and rest in peace for a month or two?
---
NOOO the idea is we can work longer hours during the week, or do more work in the given time, and have one extra day off to spend time with family/ living our own lives outside of work. Your "neosnarking" is "neohumorous!" LOL... however, if it IS a "neodoublewide" some folks might be persuaded to be better parents...

"Great idea! Have the women turn into nagging, whining shrews"

As long as they are "neonagging" it would be perfectly acceptable in todays "neopoliticallycorrectsociety."

Wow, ever think about being the secretary rather than the wife with kids?

Actually, No. When I'm working, I'm the boss.

Lots more about all of this at www.equallysharedparenting.com, if you are interested - I welcome you to add to the discussion there too!

Posted by: equal | March 29, 2007 09:11 AM

give it a rest, PLEASE. it's extraordinarily tedious for you to repeatedly use this blog to drive people to your website.

"Most people in my area are home from work by 5 pm and have sufficient leave time for personal use. There are no reasons to choose between family life and work."

Posted by: | March 29, 2007 09:17 AM

If they are home by 5 pm, then either they get off work at 5 and have zero commuting time, or they actually get off work before 5. And how many of the people in your area are the sort of elite types -- legal associates, doctors, fast-track executive wannabes -- who frequent this blog? If there were no need for work/family balance, we wouldn't have Leslie's "On Balance" column. In reality, for many people it is a rat race!

"For many a clean-cut Midwestern son,
If he wants to move up to be number one,
Must secretly stab more men above
Than brazenly out of my way I shove."

"that dads are ready to step up to the plate, if only the workplace would allow for it."

Ha, ha! The workplace is holding dads hostage at gun point to keep them away from family life!

I appreciate the plight of the modern man but think we have come a long way, baby. I'm not sure what else to say - has it all been wrapped up at 9:43?

I enjoy reading the men posting today. My husband and I both have fairly family friendly workplaces so we are lucky.

Hi Fred - yes I was up early with a kid with the stomach flu. We are going out of town tomorrow so it is a requirement that someone gets sick, bathroom leaks or we are invaded by ants - all of which have happened on the eve of a departure. Such is life.......

OK, so I looked at the American Prospect essay that Brian Reid mentions, the one by Kathleen Gerson, a professor of sociology at New York University. Some quotes:

"The best hope for bridging this new gender divide lies in creating social policies that would allow new generations to create the families they want rather than the families they believe they must settle for" (K. Gerson)

Amen to that! That's why I think employers should be encouraged to provide worksite child care as well as Day Care Vouchers, all of which should be tax-deductible to the employer and not taxable to the worker. Worksite child care and vouchers redeemable at licensed Day Care Centers would help families where both parents work. Vouchers redeemable by relatives would help families where both parents work but who don't like institutional Day Care. Since "relative" includes a stay-at-home parent, non-taxable Day Care Vouchers redeemable by relatives would also help one-earner families. This way, the choice of two-earner vs. one-earner would be less likely to be constrained by economic necessity than it is now.

"Most young women -- regardless of class, race, or ethnicity -- are reluctant to surrender their autonomy in a traditional marriage." (K. Gerson)

Maybe so. But Prof. Gerson sure lays on the academic-fad "race, class, gender" labeling thick. Of the interviewees she cites in her article, all of the women and even one of the men are identified by race, ethnicity and class:

"Amy, an Asian American with two working parents, and Michael, an African American raised by a single mother"
"Danisha, an African American who grew up in an inner-city, working-class neighborhood, and Jennifer, who was raised in a middle-class, predominantly white suburb, agree:"
"Maria, who grew up in a two-parent home in a predominantly white, working-class suburb and Rachel, whose Latino parents separated when she was young, share this view:."

"Tom," "Andrew" and "Josh" escape the "race-class" labeling. And in fact, there is nothing in the article to indicate that the interviewees' race, ethnicity or class was relevant to their wishes for family structure. So, why mention them, except to win points with the "race/class/gender" intellectuals?

Near the end of the article, Prof. Gerson begins:

"Since a mother's earnings and a father's involvement are both integral to the economic and emotional welfare of children . . ."

. . . and goes on to make a number of workplace recommedations that make a lot of sense and with which I heartily agree. However, earlier in the article she wrote:

"In contrast to the conventional wisdom that children are best reared in families with a homemaking mother and breadwinning father, the women and men who grew up in such circumstances hold divided assessments. While a little more than half thought this was the best arrangement, a little less than half thought otherwise."

So, Prof. Gerson herself admits that many women and men, including more than half of those raised in traditional families, do not believe that a mother's earnings are integral to the economic and emotional welfare of children.

Personally, all I care about is that couples should be free to choose the kind of family arrangements they think are best, as free from economic pressure as possible.

But let me be honest: (PLEEEEEAAAASE, don't lie to us any more!)

"There remains a yawning gap between the picture of fatherhood that I like to paint and the reality on the ground."

I like to paint ungrounded things too... if only I had more time to pick up the paint brush... of course, anything I painted would hopefully not elicit a yawning gap.

funny, Chris!

Matt

"If they are home by 5 pm,"

Many feds and other government workers get off before 5 pm. The commute time is the employee's choice and can't be blamed on work.

If you don't like the rat race, jump off of the track!!!

Yes, let's examine this idea that people are home at 5:00 and watch TV for the rest of the night. I don't have kids, so I'm guessing here:

1. If you get home at 5:00, you leave at 4:30, which means you get to work at 7:30 (flex-time, YAY!).

2. If you have to pick up the kid, you actually get home at 5:30.

3. Right after work is homework sports/the gym/other enrichment program until 7:00

4. You make dinner and eat until 8:00.

5. You start with the baths or homework for older kids who were doing sports or other enrichment activities earlier.

6. Then bedtime between 8:30 and 9:30.

7. Then you get to "relax" by doing the dishes, tidying up, sorting the mail, making lunches, etc. until 11:00 or so.

I don't know any family with kids that sacks out in front of the TV from 5 until bedtime. We watch TV a couple hours a night after dinner and the dog park. I'm amazed that so many people watch all these shows like American Idol and Lost. Who has the time?

Why is it that when men do something around the house, they're "helping?" As in, it's the woman's job, but the men have decided to "help" with it?

I'm cranky today, too, and this topic isn't helping.

I am willing to step up to the plate, but I am trying to avoid cliches like the plague...

I think Matt has a great point- to each their own. We can only offer suggestions and examples of how we make balance in our own lives, but there can be no set right way of doing everything one way... unless of course we all turn into mindless conformist sheep... which the puppet masters of society (not the dork who posts here under that name) seem to desire.

As far as class, I will never forget how Banfield stereotyped "lower-class" people as always self-destructive and violent and ready to pick up an axe... or some such nonsense. Some of the people who write texts on society are so far removed from reality that it is hilarious.

Wow, ever think about being the secretary rather than the wife with kids?

Actually, No. When I'm working, I'm the boss.

Why not run off with your secretary then? I know that there are both male and female sec'y. But to be PC, hey if your sec'y appeals to you irrespective of gender, go for it!

"And in fact, there is nothing in the article to indicate that the interviewees' race, ethnicity or class was relevant to their wishes for family structure. So, why mention them, except to win points with the "race/class/gender" intellectuals?"
Posted by: Matt in Aberdeen | March 29, 2007 09:48

I think if race/class/gender was not mentioned, some people would assume the interviewees were all white upper-middle-class (or all members of any other particular group) and argue with the findings on this basis, without knowing the facts. By stating it, the author is framing the study as an inclusive one.

I'm amazed that so many people watch all these shows like American Idol and Lost. Who has the time?

Posted by: Meesh | March 29, 2007 09:56 AM

Lost is on at 10 - so that is watchable for lots of people. Most parents (us included) will watch American Idol with the kids after dinner - so one hour of TV is no big deal to fit in. I don't know anyone that watches TV from 5:30 - 11:00 either, with kids or without kids. Plus very few people have sports/acitivities every night, and if they do - God Bless You.

Watching an hour or 2 of TV a night is a guilty pleasure of mine, the kids watch maybe an hour. You should see what I can get done during commercial breaks! That is when most of my laundry is done and dishwasher loaded - in stages. There are probably electrical surges in some areas during commercials of American Idol.

Posted by: | March 29, 2007 10:06 AM

That was me.

Meesh,

Meet the DVR.

Many families (unfortunately) watch television during dinner. It gets turned on as soon as the first person enters the house and stays on all evening long.

Brian, sorry, I'm not feeling ya today. "Rigid, time-demanding jobs and a dearth of child-care or family-leave options" have been out there forever -- you think when women flocked into the workforce, people just said, oh, well, sure, welcome in, here's your nice 30-hr workweek with full benefits?

I know how hard it can be to defy social expectations -- I saw the amount of total crap my mom went through when she went to work in the 70s, even in a supposedly "appropriate" field. But you don't make change by just saying, oh well, those rigid expectations have blocked my path, so until THEY decide to change, I'm stuck. You make change by being willing to go for what you need. And at least most of the men I know seem well-suited to that task -- they are far more inclined to ask forgiveness instead of permission, less likely to sit around and complain about things they don't like, and more likely to do something about it (I've sure learned a lot from watching how my husband approaches life). And Brian, you yourself are an example of pursuing the life you want regardless of those expectations.

Do I think men are subject to a lot of unfair social pressures? Absolutely. I'm not going to pretend that society doesn't expect the man to be the wage earner. It's not fair that women get a "choice" and men don't. But you know what? Women earned their "choice" to work by busting their butts and fighting those social pressures for decades -- so if men want the "choice" not to work, they're likely going to have to earn it as well. And that means taking a risk, demanding what you want/need, and accepting the tradeoffs that come with that (e.g., lower pay, less career advancement).

I also suspect a lot of the pressure is within the family itself. I think a fair number of men quietly shoulder more of the financial burden to give their wife more flexibility to stay home or take a lower-paying job, because that's what the wife wants, and they put her happiness above their own. That is a worthy choice, and that sacrifice should be appreciated (my husband did that for a while, and it wasn't until several years later that I realized how much pressure that put on him). But if you're not happy with that, if you truly want more time at home and less pressure to provide financially, then you have to be willing to negotiate with your wife about more equal sharing of the financial burdens -- the same way women have had to learn to negotiate with their husbands about doing more around the house.

I work 7:30 to 4.

That leaves ample time to pick up my kid and get home by 5 ON THE BUS.

I do most of the meal preparation and housework on the weekends. Errands are done ON THE BUS.

Kid goes to ONE outside activity a week ON THE BUS.

I'm amazed that so many people watch all these shows like American Idol and Lost. Who has the time?

I watch while doing the dishes and cleaning the kitchen.

To 9:44: Sorry! I really don't mean to self-promote. Can you tell I'm passionate about this topic? I just want the conversation to continue beyond 'On Balance'.

"Meet the DVR.

Many families (unfortunately) watch television during dinner. It gets turned on as soon as the first person enters the house and stays on all evening long"

This is the case with most of the people I know. The watercooler conversation at work is almost always about TV.

And yes, a lot of people consider watching TV with their kids counts as "family time", the same as a kid being limoed in a car is "child care".

When people mention working 60-80 hour work weeks, are they including commute time? 60 hours is 6 10-hour days and 80 hours is 6 15-hour days. If you are working for 15 and sleep for 6, that means you only have 3 hours per day to be with family and/or friends, run errands, watch tv, have a hobby, garden, exercise, etc. I personally wouldn't want that kind of life, no matter how much I loved the work or the $$$. If commute time isn't included in the 60-80 hrs that people claim to work, it's even worse.

Really, everyone I know refers to their work hours as their actual work hours without commute, so I really am interested in knowing what people mean when they refer to 60-80 hour work weeks.

"I'm amazed that so many people watch all these shows like American Idol and Lost. Who has the time?

I watch while doing the dishes and cleaning the kitchen."

Can't you think of anything better to do than watch this garbage?

Turn off the boob tube and go to bed!!

I hear about all these husbands who don't pitch in their fare share, and I wonder, why do the wives put up with it??? I understand that every household has give and take. What seems like a great situation for one household, may seem horrible for another, so I don't think it's the specific duties that are divvied up. But when wife acquaintances tell me they can't get their husbands to do anything, I just have to think there is more to the story.

And, I think the divvy-ing up is different between families where there is a parent at home and families where both parents work.

But, this post seems to be about dad's face-time with the kids, rather than contributing to the household. I do see more dad's getting home from work earlier, tackling homework questions, and spending good quality time with the kids. Dad's rushing out of work to help coach a sport, getting in the last of the daylight (I LOVE this early daylight thing!!) to ride bikes, shoot hoops,etc. seems more the norm to me in my neighborhood.

Add mentally ill spouse.

That is like juggling chainsaws, while twirling tassels from my ***s, and limboing naked under a flaming pole.

It's not for the faint-hearted and I don't recommend it to beginners, either.

But I just heard from a friend of mine who is a SAHD, in a foreign country, with his MIL nearby to criticize his every move. Doesn't THAT sound like fun?

I think it does take fortitude for men to use the leave, as they see fit, and not feel badly for doing so. It's hard doing something that seems new, or feels awkward. For all of us.

Check out what Circuit City did to their employees - fired them because they were making too much, to be replaced with lower-paid employees. They didn't even give them the opportunity to stay at a lower pay.

"I hear about all these husbands who don't pitch in their fare share, and I wonder, why do the wives put up with it??? "

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

""I watch while doing the dishes and cleaning the kitchen."

Can't you think of anything better to do than watch this garbage?

Turn off the boob tube and go to bed!!"

One man's garbage is another man's treasure. Anyway, if I turned it off, i still wouldn't be going to bed, I'd be cleaning the kitchen.

Laura, Amen.

"I hear about all these husbands who don't pitch in their fare share, and I wonder, why do the wives put up with it??? "

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Posted by: | March 29, 2007 10:23 AM

because they are MARRIED, for one thing, and the husbands put up with equally annoying behavior from their wives.

Is a wife better off if she kicks her spouse to the curb because he does less than she'd like him to do, and proceeds as a single parent? Yeah. Right. 20% of something is better than 0% of nothing.

what Laura said.

"I hear about all these husbands who don't pitch in their fare share, and I wonder, why do the wives put up with it??? "

Good question - Why does Leslie put up with it?

My son grew up with a bunch of boys whose dads were very involved with them in sports and scouts. My DD plays softball, which is a very dad-intensive activity. I think that the attitude of dads today is dramatically different than the post-war mentality that the dads had when I grew up. They're much more hands-on. And it works best when they're involved in ways they're interested in.

We have an active household in the evening and I let my husband know on a daily basis what I need from him. He works long, hard hours and sometimes I can hear him sigh when it's Wed and he has kid duty right after work that includes taking the kids out to dinner after sports. But he does it -- we can rest when we get older.

The time has to be stolen from somewhere. The kids these days are just so much better off because their dads are engaged and involved.

"because they are MARRIED, for one thing, and the husbands put up with equally annoying behavior from their wives."

It's called neo-nagging. :-) LOL but well-said nonetheless. Bravo!

"because they are MARRIED, for one thing, and the husbands put up with equally annoying behavior from their wives."

Oh, so it's like a tit-for-tat thing? Is there any communication? Or it just she's pissing me off, so i'll do the same??

And what I'm saying is, every household is different - demanding jobs/late hours; non-demanding job/flexible hours; both parents working; one parent working - so I'm not implying that it all has to be even-steven around the house.

But, if you constantly complain about it, perhaps there should be a conversation.

"The spirit is willing, but the system is weak.

WAH PUDDIN'. Sounds like a big fat excuse to me. (I'm in a very cranky mood this morning, so you'll have to pardon me.)"

Right on, workingmomX. And Laura too.

How is that all the working women of the world manage to "step up to the plate" in spite of the pressure of demanding jobs and a dearth of child care options, but the men can't because of "the system?" Give me a break. If men want it, they can do it. They just have to be willing to take the risks, just like women have and do.

"Oh, so it's like a tit-for-tat thing? Is there any communication? Or it just she's pissing me off, so i'll do the same??"

YES! It is about BALANCE, after all, RIGHT? How dare you presume to hold a double standard?!?! LMAO!

For the person asking how an 80-hour workweek works (and no, it doesn't include commuting). I only know how it works for medical residents, so I'll explain. A normal day is 10-12 hours (say, 5-5, or 7-5 depending on specialty). Then, every 4th day (sometimes more) you're on call, which means you stay all night, and usually leave around noon the next day (around a 30 hour shift). So, two calls and two other days and you have 80 hours. You just disregard the premises that you go home and sleep everyday and that weekends are for not working. (To be honest, with call every fourth day, it works out so that you get one weekend a month totally off "the golden weekend", one weekend where you're on call Friday night into Sat morning, one weekend where it's saturday night and sun morning, and one where you have saturday off but you're on sunday into monday)

a 60-hour week is just 5 12-hour shifts.

You just give up sleep if you want to do anything else.

"The kids these days are just so much better off because their dads are engaged and involved."

Really? How? Where is the proof? Because that's what you want?

tickles

Hmmm... I retract that- if we are not really talking about balance here, but instead a "neo-balance" which is deeply rooted in truthiness, except that only certain people get to decide what is fair and balanced to them. This seems to be the sort of balance people write about the most. For instance, I might think it would be perfectly fair for you to do most of the work, because after all, I am of one sex, and you are of another, and ipso facto ad nausium I can claim that it is my right to neo-nag as well. Of course, were I to do that, I would find myself in the dog-house... Alas, these double standards again! THAT, I respectfully submit, and not the workplace, is what lurks behind the yawning gap between the pretty paintings and the grounded reality of "fatherhood" as so "heckuva" eloquently put by the author of this article.

"The kids these days are just so much better off because their dads are engaged and involved."

Aren't the infidelity and divorce rates the same for these fathers as the rest of the general population?

When women wanted fairness and family-friendly policies in the workplace, they fought for it. Face it: corporations don't care about families, they care about the bottom line. They're not going to offer help to fathers. Fathers are going to have to demand it. Why is it that women are willing to go the distance for their families but men need 'help'?

Aren't the infidelity and divorce rates the same for these fathers as the rest of the general population?

Really? If by the rest of the general population you mean women, then yes, the divorce rates WOULD have to be the same...

the only way either side could have higher divorce rates would be if the "divorce" rate of gay couples were included in this data. Then we could figure out if it was mainly men, or women, who have a higher divorce rate...

"Aren't the infidelity and divorce rates the same for these fathers as the rest of the general population?

Really? If by the rest of the general population you mean women, then yes, the divorce rates WOULD have to be the same..."

Chris - you are hereby named master of the obvious for the day, congrats!

"Why is it that women are willing to go the distance for their families but men need 'help'?"

See, this is the "neo-balance" stereotyping I am talking about. I guess women don't need help (except vegas mom, yesterday) and men, us filthy pigs, never carry our own weight. ;-P

I couldn't help but be a smart@$$ to 10:54, KLB SS MD
Thank you, thank you... *bows*

For genX dad- how many times a day do you clean those gutters? Being single, I do all the boy and girl chores. Don't fool yourself that the guy stuff is anywhere near as time-consuming as the distaff chores.

Chris, Your comments are giving me a reason to live today, LOL!! Keep up the good work in bringing such energy and humor to such a tired-a$$ topic.

Worker bee, I like your suggestions for new topics and would add that the discussion on inter-racial children not be limited to adopted children. When my husband and I have children, they will be inter-racial as well as inter-cultural (we are not American).

For genX dad- how many times a day do you clean those gutters? Being single, I do all the boy and girl chores. Don't fool yourself that the guy stuff is anywhere near as time-consuming as the distaff chores.

Posted by: childfree and equal | March 29, 2007 11:03 AM

you're working too hard, childfree and equal. most guys will be glad to clean your gutters in exchange for a six-pack and a smile. of course, then you have to get them to leave. that's the difficult part.

Megan's Neighbor, thanks... at least until you start jumping on the men are pigs who can't do anything without help bandwagon too. ;-)

The topic really is as worn out as much as a thing that has been used beyond its effective usefullness- ie: a corpse of a horse, of course, of course.

As far as man-tasks. My wife actually had the gall to call them "playing" and not work, as I appear to enjoy wiring the stereo and tinkering with things- as if a man is to be denied taking satisfaction in a job well done. If men are lazy pigs, then to "neo-balance" things, women are fun-killers... at least once a month...

"Being single, I do all the boy and girl chores. Don't fool yourself that the guy stuff is anywhere near as time-consuming as the distaff chores."

Same here. I'm a widow. The guy stuff is a breeze, mostly because it isn't time sensitive and can be postponed.

Somehow, those darn kids expect to be fed and have clean clothes every day.

seeings how I mow the lawn, take care of all outdoor stuff (but not the cars-he likes to do that even), I find all this classification of guy stuff humorous.

whomever cares more about an activity is the one who does it...regardless of whether it is guy, gal, indoors or outdoors.

childfree and equal; How many girls did you ever meet that wish they were physically stronger that their husbands? Men do the heavy lifting, women stick with the menial lightweight task for a reason. Girls don't like to sweat, and they don't like to get dirt on the diamond their husbands saved up 2 months income to purchase.

"The guy stuff is a breeze, mostly because it isn't time sensitive and can be postponed." More "neo-balance" stereotyping!

The horse is dead. Long live the horse!

worker bee: I like your topic suggestions
Laura, That was awesome
In general, I think women put up with it for several reasons. 1) it is really hard to judge who does more. It reminds of work place issues and team assignments. It is easy to say I worker harder then X but who really knows all the stuff X does behind the scene. 2) because on some level some women like to by martyrs (sp?). It is fun to complain about doing all the work. 3) some women like the control. We would be fine if men did the chores the way we THINK they should be done 4) still some cultural bias. We think we should or are better at doing some things and men should or are better at doing different things. 5) gee, don't want to get divorced because hubby can't seem to do laundry or cook 6) because in weird way, we have already found a balance of chores but don't want to admit that 7) gee, we actually really love the guy and put up with weird traits because they put with ours.

"at least until you start jumping on the men are pigs who can't do anything without help bandwagon too"

Aw, come on now Chris, don't blame that bandwagon on the women of the blog today (I'm not sure if you were, but just in case) - it's Brian's post that says men just can't pull their weight because they're not getting any help.

Personally, I just don't see why there should be any difference - if women can ask for flexibility and figure it out, so can men - and we should all be in it together. There's no reason either sex should find it more difficult than the other.

And personally I quite enjoy mowing the lawn and was planning to do it this weekend, but we woke up to six inches of snow this morning. What the heck?

Chris, neo-balance AND truthiness in the same post? New personal best, I think -- you are now officially qualified to run for office. :-)

Ah, Chris, "men are lazy pigs" is not my schtick. I thought you'd know that by now :>)

Thank you foamgnome for the olive branch. :-)

"I'm amazed that so many people watch all these shows like American Idol and Lost. Who has the time?

I watch while doing the dishes and cleaning the kitchen."

Can't you think of anything better to do than watch this garbage?

Turn off the boob tube and go to bed!!

Posted by: | March 29, 2007 10:19 AM

Sure, as soon as you can wash dishes in your sleep.

Holy emoticon central batman - don't think I've ever seen so many smileys in a row on this blog.

whomever cares more about an activity is the one who does it...regardless of whether it is guy, gal, indoors or outdoors.

Here, here, to that!

Gen-X dad:

Women don't like to sweat? really? That's interesting, maybe you got what you paid for with that 2-month's salary diamond. If you talk about things, they get done.

I'm not married, but I do have roommates and we all do everything. Well, I don't close the garage door b/c I'm not tall enough to reach it, but I climb the ladder to get to the gutters and my roommates vacuum.

"Girls don't like to sweat, and they don't like to get dirt on the diamond their husbands saved up 2 months income to purchase."

Hahaha. I know I shouldn't reply to this, and fuel the fire, but I'm sure I'm not the only one here who spent the weekend hitting Thai pads with her bf, and getting bruised and knocked over by a guy who asked, after seeing "Blood Diamond" if I minded not getting a diamond engagement ring, to which I responded that I would not prefer one. Maybe he's physically stronger than me (I still have the bruise on my thigh), but that doesn't mean I have to lie down like a doormat. He hits harder, but I beat him at wrestling. And ask which of us has ever actually done an oil change, replaced a headlight, cleaned out an intake manifold, mowed a lawn, and split firewood. Physical strength is not a prerequisite for outdoor housework.

"It is fun to complain about doing all the work."

and then arguing and having good make-up sex

I would never blame the women on the blog today for men being stereotyped, it's all that awful MAN's fault.
;-)

I never understood why there HAS to be arguing first!

Anon 9:17 AM writes

>Most people come home from work, eat dinner, and >spend the rest of the evening sacked out in front >of the boob tube. It has been that way since the >1950s.

Riiiiiight. And cooking fairies prepare or purchase that dinner for them to eat; and cleanup fairies ensure the dining table is cleared, cleaned, and set with clean dishes that they may eat it from; and laundry fairies assure that they have clean clothes available to wear to work each morning; and kid-prep fairies assure that the kids have homework done, lunches or lunch money ready, permissions/parent approvals signed, and all of it loaded in their backpacks to go out the door to school; and the kids spontaneously bathe themselves, put themselves to bed, wake themselves, and appear dressed and ready to leave for school each morning at the appointed time --- not to mention the laundry and cleanup fairies specially devoted to the children's clothes and possessions.

Absolutely, that's how life has been for "most people" since the 50s --- how could I have been so blind?

I DO beleive in fairies, I DO believe in faries, come on everyone SAY IT!

"it's all that awful MAN's fault."

... and the little voice in my brain keeps reminding me, 'you wanted to marry him', so some days I let him watch tv (lots) and other days we argue 'bout the kids, dishes and money and then have good make-up sex.

Every couple's just gotta figger it out.

"Girls don't like to sweat, and they don't like to get dirt on the diamond their husbands saved up 2 months income to purchase. "

The saps who fall for the diamond con/shakedown have no one to blame but themselves.

Some people are obviously very high maintenance long before the engagement, but the nuptials proceed anyway.

No one has ... just one of life's many misteries.

"I would never blame the women on the blog today for men being stereotyped, it's all that awful MAN's fault.
;-)

Posted by: Chris | March 29, 2007 11:31 AM

I never understood why there HAS to be arguing first!"

LOL on both, Chris! You're definitely on a role.

I don't get the arguing pre-req either - we skip right over that part and get straight to the fun. But then, so far we've never had an argument about whether one of us isn't "pulling our weight", so I wouldn't actually know if it improves the sex to fight about that first...

er...roll, I mean. der.

No one has ... just one of life's many misteries.

Posted by: happilymarried | March 29, 2007 11:37 AM

Thread got a little thin there -- this is in response to agruing leading to good make-up sex and Chris not being able to figure out why there HAS to be arguing first. Sorry.

... and the little voice in my brain keeps reminding me, 'you wanted to marry him', so some days I let him watch tv (lots) and other days we argue 'bout the kids, dishes and money and then have good make-up sex.

Every couple's just gotta figger it out.

Posted by: happilymarried | March 29, 2007 11:35 AM

any married person that speaks in terms of "letting" her spouse do something scares the bejeezus out of me.

Is he your husband or your son?

KB, please let me know where I can order said fairies. The ones I grew up with seem to have gone on strike as soon as I moved out on my own.

Megan, it's you're not arguing first, then don't ruin a good thing.

---
What gets me is that nobody else said they believe in fairies! Now say it, &^%* it, SAY IT! Or Tinkerbell gets it.

Just curious wrote: "...80 hours is 6 15-hour days..."

No wonder people don't have enough time, if they're losing 10 hours a week alone to fuzzy math!

My first response to "With Workplace Help, Dads Would Step Up More," was WHO DO YOU THINK IS RUNNING THE WORKPLACE? If we could use Fortune 500 companies as a stand in, what, 6 of them have female CEOs? What percentage of their c-suite employees are women? So I got a little chuckle out of that. Second, businesses are meant to make money. However, even if you are a Milton Friedman-loving maniac, I don't think it would be hard to show that doing well by your employees probably suits the company and your bottome line better. My last thought was if women want their spouses to step up more, then they need to advocate for change within their own homes.

Wow - lots of coffee this morning, guys? I almost decided not to read when I saw this topic AGAIN, but it's been entertaining so far :)

Thanks, KB, for giving us an image of hard-working faeries KB to replace the earlier and very vivid image of MDMother: "juggling chainsaws, while twirling tassels from my ***s, and limboing naked under a flaming pole."

That one was harder to shake than the John Denver lyrics supplied a couple of weeks ago.

Hello, thought I might give a try here. I've been lurking a while, and feel like I know a lot of you. Maybe you'll want to get to know me, too.

I wanted to post today to give a shout out to my husband, who, I think does a bang-up job and is awesome. We both work, and we both do what needs to be done during the week and on the weekends to make the house run smoothly. He cooks dinner, I clean up the dishes. I cook dinner, he cleans up the dishes. I wash, he folds... all that stuff. He is also a great father, and really makes time to devote to his kids.

"Personally, I just don't see why there should be any difference - if women can ask for flexibility and figure it out, so can men - and we should all be in it together. There's no reason either sex should find it more difficult than the other."

Posted by: Megan | March 29, 2007 11:21 AM

Indeed, "if women can ask for flexibility and figure it out, so can men." But this misses the whole point of Professor Kathleen Gerson's article in the American Prospect. She writes:

"If a supportive, egalitarian partnership is not possible, most women prefer individual autonomy over becoming dependent on a husband in a traditional marriage. Most men, however, if they can't have an equal balance between work and parenting, fall back on a neotraditional arrangement that allows them to put their own work prospects first and rely on a partner for most caregiving."

Got that? Men can ask for flexibility and figure it out -- if they want to. But as Donald tells Lawyer Sharkey near the end of "The Golden Helmet": "Nikkus, nokus, nopus -- I don't want to." The Professor is saying that "most men" don't really want to ask for flexibility and figure things out so that they can do half the housework and child care. They prefer what she calls a "neotraditional arrangement," where "neo" means that the husband concentrates on maximizing the $$$ and his "partner," i.e., his wife, does most of the caregiving. And the "most men" is based on what the Professor's interviewees were willing to tell her. Who knows how many more young men who would really prefer a traditional arrangement were afraid of seeming sexist, so they lied and told her that they prefer independent, autonomous wives? Certainly, Professor Linda Hirshman's male students in her "sexual bargaining" class were willing to tell her that they expected their future wives to keep house and care for the children.

And what does Prof. Gerson mean, "most women prefer individual autonomy"? If a wife loves her husband, and he's a really nice guy who listens to her and never raises his voice to her and never speaks disloyally of her to others and "helps out" with the children and earns enough for the family to live decently -- is she gonna divorce him and break up the little civilization that constitutes the family, just for the sake of her "individual autonomy"? What these female students tell their Sociology Professor at NYU, and what they will actually do a few years later after they get married, are likely to be two different things.

Interesting article in the Post today on a related topic. NOW is going after the federally funded "Promoting Responsible Fatherhood Initiative." Another ridiculous barrier to dads "stepping up"? Is this what happens when the government tries to help men be better fathers? I normally don't agree with the feminist-bashing that takes place on this blog sometimes, but it seems that NOW is doing parents a disservice here.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/28/AR2007032802065_pf.html

I've thought about having an Opinion column, especially after seeing how they will print ANYTHING these days... I wonder how much I could get paid to sit on my arse and rant as much as I do now... ;-P

"Letting your spouse do X" is a perfectly valid thing to say. When you choose to let them not pull their weight, you are letting them do something or would you rather say that the relaxing spouse has the RIGHT not to do their share?

Ideally, you would take turns not pulling your own weight, but if it is one-sided, the working spouse is certainly letting the other get away with it.

Yeah. Right. 20% of something is better than 0% of nothing.

Posted by: | March 29, 2007 10:32 AM

You are accepting a 20% solution? Why even bother?

"He cooks dinner, I clean up the dishes. I cook dinner, he cleans up the dishes.
I wash, he folds... all that stuff. He is also a great father, and really makes time to devote to his kids."

Who cares????? Next time you post, please try to further the discussion or at least say something interesting.

"He cooks dinner, I clean up the dishes. I cook dinner, he cleans up the dishes.
I wash, he folds... all that stuff. He is also a great father, and really makes time to devote to his kids."

Who cares????? Next time you post, please try to further the discussion or at least say something interesting.

Posted by: | March 29, 2007 11:51 AM

Evidently she did since you felt the need to copy and respond...

I DO beleive in fairies, I DO believe in faries, come on everyone SAY IT!

Posted by: Chris | March 29, 2007 11:35 AM

My irish grandma believed in fairies except that she called them the wee folk. And so nightly she'd leave milk and sometimes other treats just outside the back door for the wee folk. And every morning the milk and treats would be gone and so that's how she knew that the wee folk exist. And it's our job to take care of them both out of a sense of kindness and also because to not care for the wee folk could bring bad luck, or at the very least ward off any potential good luck. It didn't matter to grandma that the wee folk only took the milk and never did any chores in the night while we slept. Kindness is what mattered most to her.

I've thought about having an Opinion column, especially after seeing how they will print ANYTHING these days... I wonder how much I could get paid to sit on my arse and rant as much as I do now... ;-P

Posted by: Chris | March 29, 2007 11:48 AM

Unfortunately Chris, Leslie says writing the blog pays pretty poorly.

Chris

I agree. Today's topic, if there is one, is the most dumb ass one yet!

"Letting your spouse do X" is a perfectly valid thing to say. When you choose to let them not pull their weight, you are letting them do something or would you rather say that the relaxing spouse has the RIGHT not to do their share?

Ideally, you would take turns not pulling your own weight, but if it is one-sided, the working spouse is certainly letting the other get away with it.

Posted by: "letting" | March 29, 2007 11:48 AM

You're (in theory) both adults. You do not LET him or not LET him do anything. You can threaten to leave, you can withhold sex, you can pitch a fit, but he has a choice to behave however he wants and you have a choice to determine how you will respond.

My husband is not my daddy. He doesn't "let" me do anything. Use of the term "let" when addressing a husband is every bit as sexist as Gen-x Daddy referring to 30 year old and older women as girls who don't like to sweat.

Ok, one more thing "better than 0% of nothing." Do you mean 100% of nothing? Would 0% of nothing constitute as a double negative, or is there a warp in the space-time continuum that allows makes for one type of dividing by zero more acceptable than another? There... just had to get that off my chest...

The post about the wee folk was so sweet. 11:54's grandma should write a guest article. No, I really do mean that. If I left milk out for wee folk, the cat would drink it...

Chris - I actually had a roomate who let a guy move in with us who really, truly did believe in Fairies. It was a little alarming.

Post It - That's awesome! I think it's great to hear from other people who are not having these tired battles and bashing their spouses.

Matt in Aberdeen - not sure what your end point is, but I agree with some of this: "Men can ask for flexibility and figure it out -- if they want to. But as Donald tells Lawyer Sharkey near the end of "The Golden Helmet": "Nikkus, nokus, nopus -- I don't want to." " The premise of Brian's post, that men would help more if it just weren't so hard, strikes me as totally bogus. They can do it if they want to. And I know men who both want to and have done it (like my awesome husband).

The post about the wee folk was so sweet. 11:54's grandma should write a guest article. No, I really do mean that. If I left milk out for wee folk, the cat would drink it...

Posted by: Chris | March 29, 2007 11:59 AM

Ya thunk, Chris??

Grandma has passed on, but I'm sure she would be very flattered.

Chris, It's only noon, and you've already posted 22 times. GET A LIFE!

My point was, not everyone thinks their husband doesn't do his "share". Not all husbands have such demanding jobs that they can't contribute to the family. Not all husbands are lazy SOB's and not all wives are nags.

If the woman stays home or the man they should be expected to do the vast majority of child rearing, if both work it falls on the day care giver, house cleaner and gardner. There was a time in la la land when the man by custom provided for his family, still is in most of the civilizd world and still would be here if it wern't for the emancipation of women into the mess we are as a nation today.

Hint to Dads... helping out more - taking pressure off your wife.. is a wonderful way to improve your intimate life with your wife.........

"You can threaten to leave, you can withhold sex, you can pitch a fit." Oh crap... here we go with the mature neo-responses. :-)

How poorly is poorly? I was thinking about semi-retiring away from DC area someday and doing something that would allow me more time to be with family/friends and do fun man-tasks involving home-repair that could easily be postponed. Maybe I would even have the time to paint, get back into playing an instrument, or do some gardening...

he's ba - ack.

the mention of abusing dead equines must have prompted mcewen to type.

mcewen, where is this "civilizd world" you praise?

There was a time in la la land when the man by custom provided for his family, still is in most of the civilizd world and still would be here if it wern't for the emancipation of women into the mess we are as a nation today.

Posted by: mcewen | March 29, 2007 12:02 PM

Oh, dearie me. Could you research and write a book expounding on your theory on the roots of our messed up nation. We all promise to read it and THEN (and ONLY THEN) will we comment.

Thanks.

CW -- you hit the nail on head!

Good to see McEwen is still pining away for the good old days when women were property....

Indeed, "if women can ask for flexibility and figure it out, so can men."

One of the recurring themes on this blog is that women who want/need flexibility generally are mommy-tracked, or their careers suffer, or career advancement opportunities suffer because of their situations.

Maybe men really don't want to find themselves on the daddy track. Or, maybe, the women don't want their men on the daddy-track. Or, maybe the men would really rather be working than taking on more responsibilites at home.

I would think there are multiple reasons.

Some men really do nothing at home, some do take responsiblity but it doesn't satisfy their wives, some do 50%, and some do more than 50%. Please stop lumping all men together.

I guess this makes 24 now. Hah! but if you're counting, you need a life. I'm just a witty fast typer strung out on caffeine and lack of sleep.

I believe in fairies- they march on the capital, don't they? *groan* sorry...

i am glad that i am not posting today (except for this). numbers may make me number 1 like fred the other day

The premise of Brian's post, that men would help more if it just weren't so hard, strikes me as totally bogus. They can do it if they want to. And I know men who both want to and have done it (like my awesome husband).

Posted by: Megan | March 29, 2007 12:00 PM

Thank you Megan! In a civilized world we would all agree with your perfectly rational (as demonstrated by many couples) line of thinking and the blog would close shop early today.

Chris and KB-you bring humor to a blah blog day...I love ya!

Who did the study from 1965 and now. I have 2 kids and I don't know of one dad in my entire range of friends and family who spends less than an hour a day on childcare. During the weekend we are all at it 24 hours a day. That is 48 hours for 2 days. Do the math for 7 days and that right there gets you to 7 hours a day. As soon as I get home from work I take the kids to the park, play outside or just hangout and play for a few hours every night. So so everyone of my Dad friends. No on is running off to the bars or hanging out with the guys while mom is home with the kids. That just does not happen. When my wife worked full-time when our first son was born, I took off every other Tuesday and stayed home. When we got home from work it was a shared responsibilty. I think as a whole we are much further along then the article relates. I know imn my circle we sure are.

"and the blog would close shop early today."

yeah, but poor trolls with OCD like numbers would have no more posts to count!

"Girls don't like to sweat, and they don't like to get dirt on the diamond their husbands saved up 2 months income to purchase."

"women are fun-killers... at least once a month..."

Did I stumble into the misogynist twilight zone? Don't you guys have a No Girls Allowed-type blog to populate? We're talking about balance here.

"11:51," the poster you lambast is actually contributing to the conversation, unlike some other posters.

Chris, you could have your own opinion column, but I don't they'd let you write as much as you do here, LMAO! ;-P

The original question was: "I hear about all these husbands who don't pitch in their fare share, and I wonder, why do the wives put up with it??? "

I responded: "because they are MARRIED, for one thing, and the husbands put up with equally annoying behavior from their wives. Is a wife better off if she kicks her spouse to the curb because he does less than she'd like him to do, and proceeds as a single parent? Yeah. Right. 20% of something is better than 0% of nothing."

11:51 blocks and copies only the last clause, without context and asks:

"You are accepting a 20% solution? Why even bother?"

Posted by: | March 29, 2007 11:51 AM

anon at 11:51, I'm not accepting a 20% solution. I responded as quoted above to the question above. Your omission of context must have been the inadvertent result of your need to rant.

but if you're counting, you need a life.

Chris, a Control-F search through the blog (less than a minute) merely confirmed your ubiquitous presence. 24 posts would be only 2 1/2 seconds per post, so you've clearly spent vastly more time here than I did, not matter how fast you type (or how little you think). Do you have a job? Then get back to it, because your employer isn't paying you to post.

"There was a time in la la land when the man by custom provided for his family"

Send Golden Boy to my house!

My ex owes me years and years of child support.

Meesh, I was being silly, you fun-killer. :-P

Working from my little cube farm with a partial view of the bright sunny day leaves me with the desire to be one of those women who runs the household while hubby is making the $$$.

"My irish grandma believed in fairies "

So did mine when she was boozing it up; small world!

Chris, 25 posts in 3 1/2 hours is OCD. GET MEDICAL HELP.

"mcewen, where is this "civilizd world" you praise?"

I suspect he's referring to Afghanistan. Because, you know, oh, 20 yrs ago or so they actually had a Constitution and laws that granted women a fairly significant number of rights (at least compared to the neighboring states). Boy, aren't we all glad they welcomed in the Taliban to set those uppity women straight -- things have been ever so much more "civilized" there ever since.

Yup, in Afghanistan women are stoned for leaving the house without being escorted by a male relative, or if their ankles accidentally show from beneath their burqas. Ah, for the good ol' days when girls were girls and men were men...

LOL on the fairies. DH and I have been wishing for fairies for years. He'll look at the kitchen after dinner and say, "You think the dish fairies are going to show up tonight?" I'll peek in the bathroom and note, "Looks like the bathroom cleaning fairies are still on vacation." We've been covering for those @$% fairies for years now . . . .

"Not all husbands are lazy SOB's and not all wives are nags. "

But they somehow manage to find each other and hook up most of the time. Amazing!

12:16, that was too funny!

but if you're counting, you need a life.

Chris, a Control-F search through the blog (less than a minute) merely confirmed your ubiquitous presence. 24 posts would be only 2 1/2 seconds per post, so you've clearly spent vastly more time here than I did, not matter how fast you type (or how little you think). Do you have a job? Then get back to it, because your employer isn't paying you to post.

Posted by: Numbers | March 29, 2007 12:13 PM

ummmm. Numbers? your employer is paying you to Control-5 through the blog and wag your virtual finger at other adults? Don't Karl or Condi need to meet with you about some topic of critical importance?

This compulsion to chastise one or another posters based on the volume of comments rather than based on disagreement with their views has gotten old. Frankly the blog loses something when you chase away thoughtful and amusing posters who post by a name, any name, please God give us a name, and leave the unthoughtful and snarky anons to rule the roost without comment.

or start doing a word count and tell us whether Matt in Aberdeen has won that contest hands-down for the month of March.

"Did I stumble into the misogynist twilight zone? Don't you guys have a No Girls Allowed-type blog to populate?"

A few men are needed on this blog to keep the radical feminists in line, or you all will end up hurting yourselves.

HappyDad

(Childcare) You are at it 24 hours a day on the weekend?

Sounds like waay too much time with the kids. Might want to spend some of that time with the wife.

Don't you sleep, have sex, or go to the bathroom?

We at least made it until 12:02 before the nastiness of mcewen slithered in. Old, tired agenda - get a new schtick.

"Chris, 25 posts in 3 1/2 hours is OCD. GET MEDICAL HELP."

Maybe, but at least he's funny.

Why can't we all decide for ourselves what we like best? Why does Brian constantly push for more father "involvement"? Wouldn't that happen, if we all (fathers and mothers) really wanted it? I just have a hard time believing that a father wouldn't "step up" more if, say, he really wanted to or if, say, the mother really created an environment where he had to or could. Maybe things are the way they are because that's how we want them?

I work less than my husband, make less money, do more child-care, do more house-related task - and I'm fine with it.

To me, it's about pragmatism, not pushing gender roles.

""Not all husbands are lazy SOB's and not all wives are nags. "

But they somehow manage to find each other and hook up most of the time. Amazing!"

LOL, ain't that the truth. Doesn't everyone know at least one couple where you just really feel like they deserve each other, and not really in a good way?

Will there be any smart people with relevant comments today?

A few men are needed on this blog to keep the radical feminists in line, or you all will end up hurting yourselves.

Oh, thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!!! Whatever would we poor fragile flowers of femininity do without big strong men like you to protect us?

A few men are needed on this blog to keep the radical feminists in line, or you all will end up hurting yourselves.

Posted by: | March 29, 2007 12:24 PM

be sure to give us a shout-out when the real men show up.

From my personal experience, I think how much a father helps around the house/kids has to do with whether the mother works. When I was on maternity leave last year with my second son, I did the majority of laundry, shopping, cleaning, etc... I was also off of work for 5 months and my 2 year old was in daycare part-time so I had alot more time to do those things. In comparison, the newborn was a breeze to care for compared to a 2 year old little boy! Now that I am back to work, I see more of a 50-50 split. My hubby drops off the kids in the morning, and I pick them up. We try to share in all the household duties, but sometimes it varies based on his more demanding work schedule.

"Will there be any smart people with relevant comments today?

Posted by: ? | March 29, 2007 12:29 PM "

No. There was a secret meeting of the smart people with relevant comments and they decided to boycott today. I heard about this third-hand from Jan who got it from Puppetmaster at their study group meeting last night.

12:26pm --- Thanks for the sarcasm. Of course I don't go to the bathroom, I just wear a diaper so I can take care of all of my kids whims. I think you get the point though. On weekends alone I am always on call just as often as my wife. We gut together without the kids once or twice a month and the grandparents babysit. She is still nursing our 11 month old so it is not like we are going away for weekends in the country.

Laura, you, among few others are too kind.
---
I'd get medical help, but the VA is back-logged, and the military/VA doctors would probably just keep trying to malpractice me to death since I can't sue them anyway. If you really feel so strongly, write Congress and tell them to support the troops and vets instead of leading us down a long-term path of destruction.

Megan,
ROFLMAO!

Megan, LOL! that was good. :)

"There was a time in la la land when the man by custom provided for his family"

In la la land, there was an unspoken commitment that, if a man did his job, relocated when asked and didn't cause any trouble, his employer would employ him 'til death or 65, whichever came first.

Then in the early '70s, employers began downsizing to improve their stock price and putting all those male providers on the street at 50 years old. All those union jobs? gone. Those lifetime jobs with GE, IBM, power companies? they're gone, too. Follow the down-sizing trend with the trend to outsource and shift jobs to countries where labor costs are lower, and we learned