I have mixed feelings about this topic. One the one hand, organized religion does provide a sense of community to many, on the other, I can't help but think how religion really divides people. Some of the problems with the country today can be traced to religion (e.g. George Bush and his "I'm a conservative Christian" garbage and his pandering to the religous right, those who would impose school prayer on us all, school vouchers--totally to promote religious based education, "faith-based" offices in the Federal government, banning funding for stemcells, limiting abortion rights, etc).

Religious beliefs are personal and if kept that way can be ok and offers the benefits the author of this blog expouses. It's the dark side of "my religion is better than yours so I'll kill you if you don't believe" attitude (crusades, middle east, anti-abortionists, etc).

I wonder how many children are not being exposed to religion because of intrafaith marriages? My religious education didn't come in earnest until my parents found a church they both felt comfortable with... I was in junior high by then.

It took one post to bash conservatives and religious people as intolerant. That must be a record! Congratualtions Anon for Today.

All Cristians, please have your children baptized and teach them the tools of your faith. I know so many parents that say they will let their kids choose what religion they want when they get old enough, but this doesn't make any more sense to me than a parent saying that they will let their kid decide if they want to go to school or not.

Both my wife and I experienced so much hypocrisy in the name of religion as we were growing up that we've both avoided structured religious organizations since. When we have a child, however, we may look for a more tolerant and inclusive religion that fits our life views; some here have mentioned the UU faith being very inclusive, and we may consider them.

"I always assumed that everyone else knew the stories I knew. Imagine my surprise when a co-worker when a co-worker admitted that she had no idea what the Exodus was."

I know many, many church going people who have no idea what the Exodus was.

Did they forget/lose interest/lack faith in the Bible stories of their youth?

"All Cristians, please have your children baptized and teach them the tools of your faith. "

My Christian faith does not baptize children. We believe in adult baptism only.

Don't hear you saying anything bad about Jews or Muslins

To the 8:07am poster, Anon for Today did say "It's the dark side of "my religion is better than yours so I'll kill you if you don't believe" attitude (crusades, middle east, anti-abortionists, etc)."

To me, this includes the radical Muslims.

I agree with "anon today." Religion to me is a very private thing that should not be forced on other people. Although my children will be raised Catholic, we will certainly teach them to keep an open-mind and not blindly follow the Catholic church, which thinks that women were put on this earth only to bear children and be housewives. This self-proclaimed "born again Christian" who we have running this country into the ground has not done anything that Jesus or God would approve of. If anything, he has shown us how intolerant and narrow-minded he and his "Christian followers" really are.

In my opinion,brainwashing children to believe in superstitious nonsense contained in the koran, the bible or the torah is child abuse.

Rationalist, you have a stupid opinion.

This is one I imagine I would have struggled with & truthfully it is one reason I am happy I never married. I was brought up in a Catholic household and am very close to my parents. I can't imagine how much it would hurt them to have a grandchild not raised Catholic. I am still a practicing Catholic, but do not have enough faith to honestly pass on a religious tradition to another generation.

I am not in the 2/3 "Nearly two-thirds of Americans believe that the Bible holds the answers to all or most of life's basic questions, yet..." I can name the four gospels & the first five books of the
bible. It is one thing to have some factual knowledge about religion and another to have faith. I am guessing that many people who lack the latter have the former.

"For parents who wonder how to introduce religion to their children, I'd like to offer a bold suggestion. Sit down with your children and read the sacred writings of your religion with them."

This worked very well for us - though probably not in the way you meant. We introduced our children to myths and fables fairly early -- with boys The Odyessy is still the greatest action/adventure story ever told. After Greek/Roman, we made sure they had a good foundation of Norse -- and then some of the Eastern mythologies. By the time they moved to the Christian mythology, they were able to grasp the difference between 'real' and 'make-believe' and compare and contrast.

It all starts with the Greeks...

"Although my children will be raised Catholic,
we will certainly teach them to keep an open-mind and not blindly follow the Catholic church, which thinks that women were put on this earth only to bear
children and be housewives."

Before you try to teach your kids anything about the Catholic faith, I suggest you learn a little about it yourself. The Catholic church certainly does not teach that the only purpose for women is to bear children and be a housewife.

"Rationalist, you have a stupid opinion."

Opinions are like farts.

Everybody thinks others stink but their own are great.

I was raised Catholic, married an agnostic, and I'm pretty sure I don't believe that Jesus was the son of God. So that eliminates a lot of options for me and my family. However, we really like the Unitarian church in our area. The people are very non-judgmental and just GOOD people.

I've had interviews with a couple of vendors in the past month whose business cards had bible verses on them. I was flabbergasted when I saw the first, but being a true Yankee at heart, said nothing (though I thought a LOT). Has anyone else had this experience? Maybe it's a Southern thing, but I felt like someone had just handed me their diary and asked me to read it or something.

Boy, there are going to be some nasty posts today (already have been). I'm sort of glad I'm tied up in meetings most of the day and won't be able to read/participate.

The one recommendation I have is that if you have a faith and you want to teach it to your children effectively, then do your best to live it. Teach by doing, not just reading.

I'm a Catholic, although as a genuine "mutt" my ancestry includes various Protestant denominations (Dad was a Baptist; his two sisters were Methodist). My father's mother was a Native American (Cree) who didn't practice a Christian religion; his father was a non-practicing French-Canadian Catholic. Mom's side is somewhat similar, but probably more Lutherans and Catholics than anything else, with two or three Jewish ancestors if you go back enough generations.

Growing up, my parents took me to church off and on until I was about 12 (they raised me Catholic, but there weren't always Catholic chaplains on the various military posts), then left it to me. But they did do their best to show me the "right way to live" regardless of religion - justice, charity, kindness, etc. And they demonstrated their own personal intolerance for hypocrisy - one of the things my father hated most was our neighbors in Mississippi in 1968/69, who would go burn a cross on somebody's yard on Saturday night, then go to church and Sunday morning and brag about how holy they were and how they were destined for heaven, for sure. (Several of the families engaged in these activities were the same ones who raged about the evils of alcohol and how sinful it was, then told their kids that the bottle of whiskey was "medicine". The kids may have believed them, but as the son of an Army NCO I knew even then what a whiskey bottle looked like. :-)

Bottom line - while we all fail sometimes (yes, even the atheists fail:-) don't just teach your kids about religion, try to live it too if you really want them to learn.

oh yes, the Catholics also teach women to be subservient to their husbands, to not use birth control, and to not live "in sin" before marriage.

"The Catholic church certainly does not teach that the only purpose for women is to bear children and be a housewife."

Absolutely right -- the poster completely forgot that women can be nuns too...

I was raised by a mostly catholic family and a protestant mother. I sometimes went to church with my aunts and feel comfortable in either church most of the time. Unless, someone gets on a political cause and then I feel like hiding under the pew.

For me, I think that family is what holds kids together during tough times and that you can believe in God without going to church. My mom only recently went back to church and I doubt my dad has been there since he was baptized. Both of my parents are good people and don't need to sit in a pew to prove that.

The most I ever went to church in my life is when I lived in Utah and was in the minority.

One other thing to add -- when I was 11-14, I was very active in a Christian youth group out of a church that was not Catholic. My parents didn't care about the religious aspect and were just glad that I had good friends to go do things with where they could be reasonably sure nothing out of control was happening. I had a Catholic friend who really wanted to go with me to the Youth Group meetings, but her parents said "no" because it wasn't at a Catholic church. I think she really missed out. She wants nothing to do with the church anymore, that's for certain.

"Although my children will be raised Catholic,
we will certainly teach them to keep an open-mind and not blindly follow the Catholic church, which thinks that women were put on this earth only to bear
children and be housewives."

Before you try to teach your kids anything about the Catholic faith, I suggest you learn a little about it yourself. The Catholic church certainly does not teach that the only purpose for women is to bear children and be a housewife.

------------------------------------

But they do teach that those who use birth control other than the rhythm method should not receive communion.

... somehow I do not think that everyone in the church I attended was following this rule on Easter...

The church was also a bit more crowded than the normal & I have a feeling that a few who had skipped a previous mass attended communion without attending confession.

The language in the initial post was inflammatory - but I think more people than not should be honest they are living lives of partial-obedience (and this is the tradition they are passing on).

"Absolutely right -- the poster completely forgot that women can be nuns too..."

It is also perfectly acceptable for a woman to choose to be single too.

Bashing something you don't understand or know about shows ignorance. Most people who grow up Catholic - and those that didn't - think they know so much about what the religion teaches. Go ask a younger-generation priest today and he'll clear a lot of issues up for you. Or, continue to pretend you know what you're talking about and just look stupid.

For "good stories"- we did that too! I thought we were the only ones. My husband and I are not religious but I wanted to expose my 5-year old to religion so we started with the Greeks... we then moved on to the Norse myths, and then the Hebrew and Christian stories. (yes, I think of them as stories) My son is now quite the little theologian who comes up with all kinds of questions (would Zeus beat Odin in a fight?)

Great, Leslie!

Giving a pulpit to a professional peacher! What, Ms. Lucinda desn't have other outlets to procelytize? To a person who asked why "anon" did not criticize Jews or Muslims: some Jews are free-thinking, some are worse (much worse) than even Christian fundametalists in their intolerance. Saving grace, they are suposed to be intolerant only to their brethen, unlike Christian fundamentalists. But God (whatever God) help you if you marrying into such family, then you are "one of us". Muslims don't have such powerful voice in this country compared to Christian and Jewish fundamentalists. Neither do Buddhists and Hindus, so don't worry about them.

Just watch that movie camp jesus! Those people are freaks, and the camp leader brainwashed the children.

I wouldn't affirm Rationalist's words 100%, but it's pretty messed up to teach children to believe in the otherworldly with such vigor.

But they do teach that those who use birth control other than the rhythm method should not receive communion.

This statement was issued within the past year - please be a bit more specific about what we are all getting wrong.

I hadn't intended to jump into the fray quite this early in the day, but Good stories' comment caught my attention. Your family's experience sounds remarkably like mine! My brother and I were introduced to the Greek myths as children, too, both at home and at school, and we too were taught from an early age to read and think critically.

One of my father's most telling admissions came following a trip to Egypt. A fellow church member approached my dad and mentioned the Egyptian story of Isis and Osiris. "Sounds remarkably similar to the story of the death and resurrection of Christ, doesn't it?" the other church member observed. "What do you make of it?" My dad got real quiet, then whispered conspiratorially, "I think the Egyptians thought of it first!" The other church member winked at him and replied, "So do I!"

My dad and I both have a great deal of respect for the Christian tradition in which we were raised, but biblical literalists we are not. In fact, my insights into what the Bible means started to grow exponentially once I realized I didn't need to read it literally.

"My son is now quite the little theologian who comes up with all kinds of questions (would Zeus beat Odin in a fight?)"

If your kids are still in elementary school [4-5th grade] I would highly recommend the Myth-O-Mania series by Kate McMullan -- they have been a blast.

Being jewish, I don't know anything about the gospels. I don't think this is so horrible. We sent our oldest to a jewish preschool-and will be sending the youngest as well. We go often to our synagogue- for dinners, services, programs for the kids. Each week on friday night, we have a shabbat dinner. We try to weave our religion into our everyday lives-it is a part of who we are.
It was a wonderful thing when we found a synagogue in spain and went to services and then were invited to someone's apt. For dinner. Doesn't happen as much, I believe in the christian church.

Our son is taking lunch to school today (and did yesterday) for passover, and he likes being a part of something.

As for vouchers, I personally think they are great-not everyone can be able to live in a district with a good school- how is that a good thing or fair . It is no different than the govt giving loans for college and having a student choose a college that is based in religion. This way, parents are choosing-not the govt, ie, not having a 'govt based religion'.

Maybe it's because I'm not religious, but I'm not getting the "balance" connection in today's column. In fact, as I started to read it, I scrolled up to make sure I hadn't accidentally clicked on the Parenting blog.

Oh, and randommom, this comment totally makes my day: "My son is now quite the little theologian who comes up with all kinds of questions (would Zeus beat Odin in a fight?)"

For parents who want to expose their kids to a bunch of different religions, I highly recommend the kids' book "Laura Upside-Down" (can't remember the author). It was very helpful and meaningful for me when I was a kid and trying to figure out what I believed in.

Posted by: randommom | April 10, 2007 08:34 AM

Good stories, I really like your idea. This is a topic that my husband & I struggle with, as we are an interfaith couple (Jewish/Presbyterian) but neither one of us is particularly religious or even attends services. However, I do feel it is important for children to be brought up with knowledge of religion.

My family did not start going to church until I was in 8th grade, and only then because I insisted. I do feel I missed something by not being brought up familiar with the biblical stories. I know Greek & Egyptian myths better than the Old/New Testaments because they were taught to me in school.

So this seems like a wonderful approach to make sure that children grow up with religious knowledge without us having to practice something we don't fully believe.

"So this seems like a wonderful approach to make sure that children grow up with religious knowledge without us having to practice something we don't fully believe."

What is the point of this if there is no faith? Why teach the biblical stories rather than any other religious knowledge?

It was a wonderful thing when we found a synagogue in spain and went to services and then were invited to someone's apt. For dinner. Doesn't happen as much, I believe in the christian church.

Maybe it just doesn't happen as much in America because people are afraid to go to strangers houses.

Well, I clicked the comments button with complete anticipation that it would take a lot of courage to go against the grain and disagree wholeheartedly with the author.

What a surprise! For once, I seem to be with the majority. To be a little brutal, I cannot for the life of me understand how any intelligent person with an ounce of interest in current affairs, or history for that matter, wouldn't see religion for the blight to humanity that it is.

That said, I feel it is imperative to teach children everything about religion, that they be wary of those who promote it.

Here's a question. How are those of us who want to supposed to raise children of (Christian) faith in this hyperactively secular world? Where atheists act as if any expression of Christianity is an attack on the atheists. Where other religions are more accepted in the name of diversity but Christianity is pushed to the curb in a familiarity breeds contempt way. Fine, separation of church and state but when kids are practically expelled from public schools for even mentioning the name of God, it's kind of scary. Where's the religious freedom in that?

I'm with scarry. Religion for me is not institutionalized.

I went to Catholic school through high school. I know all about the bible. I was also an alter server. It was great to have that structure as a kid because we did move around a lot. It was nice to have one place that was always familiar (the church).

But as I've gotten older, I've balanced my view of religion. I disagree with some of the aspects of institutionalized religion. So I worship in my own way. I am more spiritual now than I ever was while I was attending church.

I think it is important for kids to learn about all religions so there's no mystery or misunderstanding. My Catholic school did a great job of exposing us to all religions. If you can do that and touch on the common fundamental points (the golden rule, living a worthy life, etc.), then I think you've done a good job.

My parents were not the same religion, though they were both Christian (Catholic/Protestant), but I went to a parochial school (Lutheran) and attended Catholic church, and I agree that it provided me with a sense of community and continuity. When I was about 13 I decided I didn't want to go to church and I didn't believe in God anymore, and my parents agreed I was old enough to make that decision. I came back to religion on my own when I hit a rough spot in my adult life, and was surprised by how much of a comfort it really can be. I ended up being glad it was something I knew enough about to turn back to, and even after having been gone for 15 or so years, was surprised at the acceptance. I'd like my kids to always have that option, so I'll start them off with it.

Here's a question. How are those of us who want to supposed to raise children of (Christian) faith in this hyperactively secular world? Where atheists act as if any expression of Christianity is an attack on the atheists. Where other religions are more accepted in the name of diversity but Christianity is pushed to the curb in a familiarity breeds contempt way. Fine, separation of church and state but when kids are practically expelled from public schools for even mentioning the name of God, it's kind of scary. Where's the religious freedom in that?

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I disagree vehemently with your comments.

We live in a country where you cannot be taken seriously as a candidate for president unless you pass a religousness test. Our current president is a religious conservative. Go through the senate and the house - how many atheists do you see?

Did you read the intro "Nearly two-thirds of Americans believe that the Bible holds the answers to all or most of life's basic questions"

How in the world does this translate to you being in an oppressed minority?

Can you not turn off HBO? Certainly god is credited plenty on ESPN... and CSPAN...

"What is the point of this if there is no faith? Why teach the biblical stories rather than any other religious knowledge?"

Because the Christian mythology is central to Western cultural traditions and literature, and it would be a challenge to be considered 'well-educated' in the West without a basic understanding of the Christian mythology.

Meesh

You may "know all about the Bible", but
you should know how to spell "altar" if you were an "altar server"!!

"I think it is important for kids to learn about all religions "

"My Catholic school did a great job of exposing us to all religions."

I find this impossible to believe and a little silly for you to have written.

Learning about ALL religions must have taken up a great deal of time...

"How are those of us who want to supposed to raise children of (Christian) faith in this hyperactively secular world?"

Simple -- move to Earth where religion continues to be a dominant social force and rationalism is still a minority belief.

How can any intelligent person subscribe to the teachings of just one church, just one religion??? How can any intelligent person be so close minded to beleive that THEIR way is the only right way???

Just as those who vote solely based on Party ID, without listening to the issues and the candidates, is shutting themselves off from growth and learning- people who choose to just be Catholic, et al and be institutionalized are shutting themselves off from what it REALLY means to be a part of something larger than ourselves.

Take a minute to meditate, to look at the nature around us, the humanity of helping your community and being a loving parner and parent. We're all a part of this larger world- why pick factions??

Spirituality is a very personal and family oriented thing. i would never imagine placing myself in a neat little "protestant box" or "muslim", what have you... it's terribly unprogressive.

I'm atheist, my husband's an agnostic. We intend to teach our daughter that many people believe in different things, to help her discover what those things are if she's interested, and that people not understanding or tolerating each other can lead to conflict, wars and death, and a lot of misery, but most importantly we intend to teach her to treat others with respect, including their faiths, but to have the courage to question their beliefs and have the courage of her own convictions.

"it would be a challenge to be considered 'well-educated' in the West without a basic understanding of the Christian mythology."

This will come as news to a great many people!

This type of crap makes me go red with rage. I was raised Catholic. I went to Catholic school for 10 years. At 17 I had a HUGE fight with my mother about my not wanting to go to church any more. I know all about the bible. I had it SHOVED down my throat every day for years. So of the most pious families in my parish were also some of the bigoted and small minded people I knew (the mother of one friend of mine refused to touch one of her grand children who was born out of wedlock because he as a "bastard"). So don't give me this BULLS!!T that religion somehow makes people & families better. My son has almost exposure to religion and my next child will have just as little exposure.

By the way, one of the nicest guys I ever knew was raised by atheists, and he's an atheist too.

to the poster who thought it was scary that kids couldn't practice religion in schools- are you kidding??? If you want your kids to have a religious education- send them to a private RELIGIOUS school. I already think it's bad enough that we go on a christian holiday schedule for vacations and such (spring break??? yeah right, just happens to coincide with Easter. Winter Break??? Not during Hanukkah or Ramadan- but Christmas) The kids recite the Pledge. What else would you want?

"Top cat," in my opinion, the bible stories are parables. Parents can teach the bible stories so their kids can recite all the plagues OR parents can use the bible stories to teach the "big picture" lessons of Christianity. Like to treat all people with kindness, to find happiness outside of material things, to give to those who are less fortunate, etc. I think that most people will agree that those big picture lessons are less "religion" and more "morals" that all people should learn.

Kind of off topic, Heifer International (mentioned by the guest blogger) is a great organization. It's one of the top rated international charities. Please check it out!

I didn't say Christians were an oppressed minority. But I do say there is an ongoing attack on Christianity. Atheists act as if they are open-minded and Christians are oppressive and religion is what causes all the world's problems. I object to this view. Sure, the world is full of problems. But religion isn't what makes the problems. People are flawed (religious or not) and religions are made up of these flawed people. Not being religious doesn't make someone better. And, really, who is completely open-minded? Most of us believe what we do or behave as we do due to what we believe is true and right. So, yes, of course that means that we believe others can be wrong, or less right, but that doesn't mean we're oppressing them.

I've spent some time with a youth group when I was in junior and senior high. I enjoyed the companionship even though I was cynical (even then) about church in general. What has always amazed me (since I was old enough to start questioning it), are the strongly religious people that can mock the early Greeks who believed in Zeus and the other gods, who are condescending to the Native Americans about their beliefs in many different spirits, but cannot see that the Bible is no different from those stories.

Catholics do not teach women should be subservient to their husbands. There are a lot of problems in the Catholic church, and in many denominations. There is also a lot of good.

I found that being raised with religion helped me understand other faith groups. This is increasingly important in our world today. Some of my Jewish friends joke that I know more about Jewish traditions than most of their friends, and we had a semester in my Christian school on the Islamic faith in high school (well before 9/11). Most of the people I know who harbor misconceptions about religious groups and beliefs do so out of ignorance of any religious tradition. There was a fantastic editorial in the WA Post about six months ago from the president of Notre Dame (Jenkins?) about the importance of learning about theology, even in a secular setting, to understand the world around us. It really spoke to me.

For example, look at the comments made thus far about the Catholic church. I'm not even Catholic, and I'm offended. I can't imagine what will be said about Muslims today. Perhaps it's just best to ignore this and let the hate spew, since most of the people who say it will have to miss their Don Imus fix for a few weeks.

""it would be a challenge to be considered 'well-educated' in the West without a basic understanding of the Christian mythology."

This will come as news to a great many people!"

It shouldn't come as a surprise at all -- from the Renaissance forward the Christian mythology has been a central theme within Western arts and literature.

People don't like what they don't understand. so they consider the other side to be intolerent.

You are very rude. Meesh said nothing mean in her post. Grow up if you can and learn to be accepting of other people's beliefs.

Smurfette, silly me with the "altar" misspelling. I certainly know which is the right spelling, but those homonyms get mixed up in my head.

I don't know how to convince you that we learned about other religions in Catholic school. But here's my attempt: In the K through 8 elementary school, we had 8 class periods. One was "religion," and it was mandatory. So for about 8 years, for 45 minutes every week day (except for summers and breaks), we talked about religion. We learned all about the saints, all about the bible, and if my memory is correct, we spent two entire grades learning about other religions and how they are all connected by certain beliefs. I think we convered the contemporary religions. But feel free to disagree--if you never experienced it, how would you know?

Once we did a survey on job satisfaction. The factors listed were benefits for humanity, self-fulfilment, remuneration, etc. And then more than one respondent suddenly mentioned that a job provided them a kind of structure. So we added "need for structure" to the factors, and surprisingly it got significant weight.

I personally was amazed that people felt such need. For me, it's like a need to be limited/restrained/imprisoned. Then again, I feel the same way about religion. Going someplace every Sunday or Saturday or Friday, doing ritualistic things, seeing the same people for 20 years and working on the same projects (Heifer, anybody?)feels just weird. I took classes in history of religions, and studied mythology, but it doesn't mean I'm about to start practicing it.

As an aside, when we were on location in Greece, I went to a beach with 3 years old and 5 years old. We made friends with local guys and within a couple hours went boating with them. No freaking out about strangers on either side. Another time, in Italy I was just walking down the street, and the guy stepped out of the Gallery and invited our family to see an exhibit which was set up, but not open to the public yet (well, he did not really see the family tagging along a few steps behind :) My husband and kids politely declined and went for some ice cream, but I enjoyed a couple hours seeing a great art by myself in an air-conditioned place. Sure, it happens more in Europe, because we are exotic creatures there, and everything is more exciting for us, but would not you invite a French or British kid to your house if you struck a conversation on the street, let alone in a synagogue?

People are flawed (religious or not) and religions are made up of these flawed people.

Posted by: Regular but anonymous | April 10, 2007 09:33 AM

EXACTLY!!! You just proved my point (and interestingly, disproved your own)- why should one be institutionlaized by a church??? why can't one be spiritual on their own?? people are flawed- so why follow a church led by a MAN?? Why follow something led by people?

"It took one post to bash conservatives and religious people as intolerant. That must be a record! Congratualtions Anon for Today."

Look, we are entitled to our opinions and I would not call what I wrote "bashing". And if it were, it's well deserved. "Christians" (I put that in quotes because I only mean the evangelical holier than thou types who do things like bomb clinics or tell others they are going to hell for being gay, etc, not Christians who embrace tolerance and love) attempt to impose their views and way of life on others. This is the United States of America and we are entitled by our constitution to freedom to worship any way we please. To have our government impose any one religion's views is oppressive and unamerican.

With regard to not "bashing" muslims or Jews---well I'd say the same if Muslims or Jews were imposing their views on others in this country. While some muslims in other countries are crazy terrorists and fascists (Osama et al and Saudia Arabia), I don't see that Muslims are passing laws here that women must wear a veil or people must follow their rules. "Christians" do that---ban stem cell research, bomb abortion clinics and pass ridiculous laws and rules such as making contraception difficult to get, etc. If you don't like it, preach love to these freaks.

So if you think I'm picking on Christians, I guess so--they are the dominant and domineering religion in this country and as such are subject to criticism.

With regard to today's blog, I have no problem with it. I do think it comes very close to advocating for proselytizing and I'd prefer not being approached by anyone at work or my kids at school. Keep your religion to yourself.

Not quite sure what the article has to do with the topics covered on this blog - looks a little bit like this woman was just given the pulpit to preach what she believes in.

Her comment was just snark...
You just need to change your phrasing from *all* other ... to *many* other ...

p.s. your experience mirrors mine

"My Catholic school did a great job of exposing us to all religions."

Most religious schools teach theology every year-round, which is why they have time to explore other theologies of the world. My Lutheran school did the same thing. Maybe "all religions" is an overstatement.

Again, it taught me to have a lot of respect for what other people believed. I dated someone for years who was one of the most spiritual people I've ever met, and he was an athiest. However, he has such a sense of self and respect for the world around him it was amazing. While it may be different for others, being raised with religion taught me to respect other beliefs or lack thereof, and to not judge others for theirs. I certainly hope I'm passing that onto my children.

Scarry-go to any synagogue in the world-including the US- and you would probably get invites to homes for friday night dinner. It has to be with being jewish, not being elsewhere.

To 9:27(anon): I agree. I never understood the idea of other religions to tell me þhat they know the way and that they want me to believe as they do. I do what is right for our family, you can do what is right for yours, please leave me alone.

The only reason I have for dragging my kids to church is to possibly tap into any available scholarships and to be able to answer some of the crossword puzzle clues. Oh, no wait, also I get to deduct the money I cough up. Of course, I also donate through the CFC so it balances out.

I often wonder why people grow up and out of believing in fairies and yet go on believing in an all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful deity. Or deities.

*shrugs*

"Keep your religion to yourself."

Let me point out that the above command is a bulleying statement equivalent to telling someone to shut-up.

5 demerits for the anti-religious.

Like many, I dispair at what mankind has done to faith. But what mankind has done does not invalidate faith. I would rather all the religious screwballs be institutionalized but I guess that isn't realistic. I have to agree, that a little more understanding and empathy would go a long way to making the world a better place. I am not promoting faith as a cure, but promoting understanding instead. You don't have to buy into any faith in order to understand it but if you understand it, you can better understand where its adherents are coming from.

"There are a lot of problems in the Catholic church, and in many denominations. There is also a lot of good."

I think this is why so many people raised in the Catholic church do live lives of what someone else called "partial obedience." The teachings about birth control (other than the rhythm method) are too impractical in modern American life. That issue aside, there's something to be said for the consistency and ritual of the Mass. It can be comforting for people.

I like Garrison Keillor's definition of Lutheran evangelism: "It's not the worst religion."

There's a lot of intolerance on the blog today - much of it from the atheist/agnostic set. I've pasted just a few of the more choice quotes below. I'd like for some of the people who posted them to explain how they think they're being tolerant, understanding, whatever, if they want to. Otherwise, we'll just accept the fact that these atheists/agnostics are as intolerant as the religious (read: Christians) they so ardently criticize.

I'm a regular, and there ain't no way I'm posting this under my regular name - I don't need more people claiming I'm stupid, naive, ignorant, idiotic, and the rest of the names these 'tolerant' people are so quick to use.

"In my opinion,brainwashing children to believe in superstitious nonsense contained in the koran, the bible or the torah is child abuse."

"I wouldn't affirm Rationalist's words 100%, but it's pretty messed up to teach children to believe in the otherworldly with such vigor."

""The Catholic church certainly does not teach that the only purpose for women is to bear children and be a housewife." Absolutely right -- the poster completely forgot that women can be nuns too..."

"I already think it's bad enough that we go on a christian holiday schedule for vacations and such"

"To be a little brutal, I cannot for the life of me understand how any intelligent person with an ounce of interest in current affairs, or history for that matter, wouldn't see religion for the blight to humanity that it is."

"How can any intelligent person subscribe to the teachings of just one church, just one religion??? How can any intelligent person be so close minded to beleive that THEIR way is the only right way???"

I had two best friends as a kid - one was Jewish and the other Catholic (I am Protestant). We had more fun going to Temple on Friday night, Folk Catholic service on Sat and my church on Sunday morning. I had a working knowledge of all three.
To me religion is very personal. It isn't something you freely discuss with strangers. For as many people there are in the room there are that many ideas about religion and what it means to that person. I don't want someone coming to my door at 9am on a Sat morning to talk about it. If I want to be a part of a religion I will come to you.
I can say that a few years ago I was having a conversation with someone who went to a certain church that was near my house that sounded interesting until...he told me that women had no part in the services. I declined.

I have my own cultural predjudices as I am aware. Being from the South, a certain politeness is expected. Also, being a large man, I have learned (Tony Soprano to the contrary) that it is better to keep my temper in check. Still, I was called to the test once, when meeting an orthodox woman and extending my hand, as I am want to do, she scorned it, calling into account some remnant of Medieval habit disguised as a religious more.

Worst yet, the woman introducing me to her bought into the whole shebang and somehow felt I was at fault for being unaccomodating. Well, I saw red. Had to physically control myself from belting them both. You see, I was raised to believe that not shaking an offered hand was tantamount to spitting in your eye. On top of that, it would seem that rather than this woman entering the modern world, I was expected to take a direct insult and smile.

It was too much. The author above speaks of community but the communal feeling is only available to those who buy into whatever the rules are and the implicit assumption is that if you don't, you are in the wrong.

Re my previous comment- "My son is now quite the little theologian who comes up with all kinds of questions (would Zeus beat Odin in a fight?)"

Just need to brag here- my son is 5. (Oh, and he decided that Zeus would indeed beat Odin. The Norse gods were depicted as very strong humans with special powers- but they could die, and in fact at the end of their era, a story tells how they were all eaten by a giant wolf.)

Someone suggested the Odyssey as a great adventure story for boys- I definitely second that. Also the Iliad. But you'll probably want to get a simpler version for kids. (Check the library!)

Another comment- has anyone noticed how horrible some Bible stories are? I was reading my son a children's book with Bible stories and one story was about the destruction of Jericho. I had a hard time explaining why the Hebrew god, who is supposed to be "good" (as opposed to the Greek gods who were sometimes good, sometimes bad) would destroy a whole city just because it was in the way.

But Dave--she may have saved you from touching an woman during her "unclean" time and thus prevented you from imperiling your immortal soul!

People are weird sums it up pretty well, wouldn't you say?

Religion can be a positive experience for adults and children. However, the framework of organized religion is not the only one that offers the possibility for teaching compassion and tolerance. A humanist or atheist approach is no less effective -- we do not have to believe in a "higher being" to believe we have a purpose in life and to feel as if we are an important part of the global web of life.

I think I am in tune with today's guest blogger. Many answers to human problems are in the Bible. I'm not so certain about scientific answers, but certainly human problems are most unchanged from those described in the Bible.

I do think a balanced life includes time for fitting into the larger frame of life.

I'm glad to see someone bring it up.

One more thing- for all the folks of Norse extraction out there- my apologies for grossly oversimplifying Norse mythology.
(And if anyone wants to explain the Jericho story to me, feel free!)

I'm an agnostic, as was my father (talk about family values). But I also know that without some background in Greek and Roman mythology, Judaism and Christianity (Old and New Testaments), and other major world religions, the great literary masterpieces of the English language cannot be well understood. That's one reason why there are courses in (Greco-Roman) Classics and The Bible as Literature.

Wow -- Even I'm afraid to post today. Lucinda has a right to share her views on religion, balance and kids and so do we all -- but jeesh, show a little respect...

I'm nominally Christian, my husband is Jewish, our babysitter is devoutly Christian...and it all works together and shows our kids several different options. Last week we celebrated Easter and Passover and I think our kids learned from each. Mostly I hope they learn about tolerance, and loving people for who they are inside, not any exterior label.

Delighted to assume the mantle of "intolerant" in this case. But there are degrees of intolerance. My sort does not fly jet planes into office buildings, incinerating Ecuadorean waiters and WASP stock brokers, Puerto Rican managers and Irish/Italian computer programmers.

You may believe that your particular cult would NEVER behave in such a way but, in my opinion, you are kidding yourself.

I better knock it off. I look forward to another topic on another day.

Dave, they also flew those planes into a few of their own who happened to be working at the WTC too, & just chalked their deaths up to collateral damage.

I wholeheartedly agree with KLB SS MD: "To me religion is very personal. It isn't something you freely discuss with strangers."

At work especially, I don't even want to know what someone's religion is. I'm very surprised at how open some people are about their religion in the workplace in the DC area. Has this been the experience of others? I've lived in different places in the northeast, and religion was a taboo subject of discussion in the workplace. I found this a relief.

I also think religion should be kept out of the schools. I myself don't feel sensitive about red and green at "winter celebrations" though I can understand why some people might find this offensive. I'd be perfectly happy with snowflake/snowman themes. My kids have plenty of opportunity to celebrate Christmas at home.

I really objected to a "God Bless America" sign I saw in a public school. I don't care for the moment of silence at school either. To me, that's pretty thinly veiled prayer time.

I actually like different parts of different faiths. I do think to be a truly educated person in Eastern or Western society, one needs to have studied different faiths on a literal and historical level. But I hesitate to actually support vouchers for parachoial schools. I really think teaching the foundation of western civilization, one needs to understand the basics from the three major religions. But it should never be taught as a faith study as much as a literature, culture and history. I also don't know why people feel that Christianity is being attacked in this country. It remains the dominant religion in this country. I think the religious right is still a powerful voting block. But to each his own. I have no issues with people who choose not to expose their children to different faiths.

I had no idea Jewish people as a whole were like that.

And, no, I would not just pick up people wandering around my city and asked them to come home for dinner. I have children to think of you know and everyone is not nice, whether they are in church or not. I would never, ever get on a boat with a stranger, get in a car with a stranger or go to a stranger's house. I mean, if you are open to inviting people you don't know home for dinner, more power to you, but that is not for me.

"The teachings about birth control (other than the rhythm method) are too impractical in modern American life. "

Not true. Have been using Natural Family Planning (quite different from the Rhythm Method) for almost 3 years now.

To say that "modern American life" requires us to depend on drugs is ridiculous.

And thanks to all those anti-gious out there for showing there true intolerance.

Remember and repeat, "I am the end all be all." (heaps of sarcasm).

Leslie, can you publish guest blogs from Jewish and Muslim or any other religion as well. It would be nice to hear different perspectives.

"There's a lot of intolerance on the blog today - much of it from the atheist/agnostic set. I've pasted just a few of the more choice quotes below. I'd like for some of the people who posted them to explain how they think they're being tolerant, understanding, whatever, if they want to. Otherwise, we'll just accept the fact that these atheists/agnostics are as intolerant as the religious (read: Christians) they so ardently criticize."

One of the words I would love to re-claim is 'tolerance'.

I am extremely intolerant of racism.

I am extremely intolerant of sexism.

I am extremely intolerant of Nazism and Facism.

I attempt to be open-minded -- one of the earliest lessons my father taught me is 'I might be wrong'. I've applied this lesson throughout my life and it's helped keep my ego in check.

I personally believe that religion is the most evil, destructive force ever created my man. It is not, as some have said, that religion is good but those practicing it are flawed -- it is that religion itself is flawed. For any of the current major religions, if you absolutely follow all of the tenets of that faith I believe you would be an evil person.

Lucinda,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and suggestions on a topic that is important to my husband and myself. When work, homework, sports and family-related travel start to squeeze our time for service in our church community, we know our lives have gotten out of balance and we look for ways to cut the others back until balance is restored. As we raise our children, we seek to communicate and live the importance of discerning God's will for our lives and prioritizing service to others and the community as a core part of living our lives consistent with our faith.

Thanks, Leslie, for providing a forum for a Lucinda, as a parent, a woman, and a believer.

Red and green are colors. Should we outlaw blue and white because that could be seen as a Jewish theme? Tolerance is for everyone and a moment of silence could just mean that you are thinking of the soldiers over seas or that you are grateful to be alive. Or if it bothers you so much, don't think anything at all.

Dave, actually, if you are being introduced to a woman, she's the one that is supposed to initiate a handshake, not you. YMMV, however.

Back when I was in college, a family that was close to ours had their oldest daughter a year behind me go to that same college. They were devout, practicing Catholics, the daughter not so much so.

After I graduated, I saw them again and asked about the daughter, since I knew her and we'd been friends while at college. Her mother coldly announced that she had "gotten herself pregnant" (all by herself apparently) and was no longer spoken about in their home; basically they had disowned their oldest daughter for this! Her mom made it plain that in HER home there was no place for such a disobedient daughter, and there was no forgiving such a sin as hers.

Also, for all those claiming that religion shouldn't be discussed publicly-- It sounds an awful lot like someone saying to a gay person, "Just keep it to yourself. It offends me and if I want to know I'll ask you."

Do you think that a person should keep their sexuality to themselves as well? If not, there is some reconciliation that needs to be done within yourself.

Religion is not something to be kept hidden. For many people it is more than just a hobby. It's something they want to live and not just give lip service to.

You might want to rethink your viewpoint.

Have been using Natural Family Planning (quite different from the Rhythm Method) for almost 3 years now.

How many times has the wife gotten pregnant? Or are you just sex-starved?

I am an atheist. I don't, however, try to convince those that are religious that my way is the only right way. As long as they respect my beliefs the same way that I respect their beliefs, then we'll get along fine. The problem is that many religions teach that you are supposed to go out and spread the word, and that all other religions are wrong. It breeds intolerance.

Question:

Are you considered a citizen of Israel if you are not Jewish? I thought I had heard that the Bedouin (who had initially been supportive of the creation of Israel) were increasingly marginalized.

Is Israel a theocracy? If yes, how does that make it different from, say, Morocco?

//How can any intelligent person subscribe to the teachings of just one church, just one religion??? How can any intelligent person be so close minded to beleive that THEIR way is the only right way???//

I don't think that reasonable people of faith think that their way is the ONLY way, just the way they have chosen. Sure, there are those who think otherwise, but please don't paint everyone with the same brush.

//But religion isn't what makes the problems. People are flawed (religious or not) and religions are made up of these flawed people. Not being religious doesn't make someone better. And, really, who is completely open-minded?//

That's at the heart of the argument. It's not religions per se that cause the world's problems--it's flawed people. In the absolute absence of religion, there would still be flawed people and they would still create problems. Can't you see the flaw in this argument:

Religious people cause the world's problems.
Therefore,
Absence of religion will solve the world's problems.

"How many times has the wife gotten pregnant? Or are you just sex-starved?"

Actually, I am the wife thanks, and the husband has yet to complain thanks again.

We have needed to use NFP to both avoid pregnancy for medical reasons and to try to conceive.

All is well on our end, though, thanks for the gross generalizations. They are duly noted.

The problem is that many religions teach that you are supposed to go out and spread the word, and that all other religions are wrong. It breeds intolerance.

Amen to that!

Anyone here who has NOT been hassled by the Mormons, or the Jehovah's Witnesses? Mormons in particular just do NOT go away, even when told to go away, do not come back, leave me alone, I'm going to get a gun now...

Not true. Have been using Natural Family Planning (quite different from the Rhythm Method) for almost 3 years now.

To say that "modern American life" requires us to depend on drugs is ridiculous.
________________________

I admit I haven't investigated the science of modern Natural Family Planning and don't know what adjustments are made as a woman approaches menopause. I do know the rhythm method did not work for many women in my mother's generation, and many married Catholic couples were faced with change-of-life pregnancies and raised children later in life than they would have preferred.

These women did feel oppressed by this rule, and it ultimately drove them away from the Catholic church later in life.

I myself will find a church home that I find more in line with my decisions about reproductive planning. I won't find fault with any couple who chooses to stay in the Catholic faith and also chooses a method of birth control other than Natural Family Planning. I don't think they should feel forced out of their faith or that they are in sin because of that choice.

Your opinion differs, so be it. I did want to state my thinking here though.

We have needed to use NFP to both avoid pregnancy for medical reasons and to try to conceive.

A condom is simpler. Double-up if you don't trust them.

I see that all of the same old, same old intolerant atheists have tired of filling up the On Faith blog and moved over to here.

Maybe after lunch when the mean girls and boys have gone off to ruin another sandbox, we can have an interesting discussion on balancing time commitments to faith communities with parenting and with work.

Lou,
I don't see any reason to publicly discuss a stranger's sexual orientation any more or less than their religion. Because you aren't talking about it doesn't mean you can't live it.
If a man introduces me to another man as his "partner" or "significant other" I would assume he is gay and leave it at that. If the same man started a conversation about baseball why would the subject even come up? The same goes for religion.

"Leslie, can you publish guest blogs from Jewish and Muslim or any other religion as well. It would be nice to hear different perspectives."

This is not the Comparative Religion blog, it is the On Balance blog. It's bad enough that we're wasting one day talking about something that has little to do with balance for most of us without turning every Tuesday into the "Guest Religious Blog".

KLB SS MD - But basically, people are saying that religion is personal (it is) and it should not be discussed in public.

How does that make a "religious" person like me feel? I can't comment that I went to church for Easter? Or should I not be ok to say that I don't believe in abortion (as my religion teaches)? Or how about the simple fact that I can't go to such and such a restaurant on Good Friday because I am fasting?

My religion is not something that I can suppress and at the same time live it fully. To tell people to do so is just wrong.

Wanting the separation of church and state (including public schools) doesn't make me an atheist.

I'm more comfortable with religion not being discussed in the workplace because it opens the door to discrimination. I worked in a firm that had no Jewish partner until the 90's. I would not have stayed there if I had not seen a rapid change away from old discriminatory attitudes (toward women as well) due to retirements/turnover in the partner staff.

What KLB said.

Lou,
That isn't what I am saying at all. Of course you can comment about going to church on Easter and that you are fasting. I am talking about a stranger or mere acquaintance who initiates a deep conversation about their particular religious beliefs. I am not comfortable with that.

Her mom made it plain that in HER home there was no place for such a disobedient daughter, and there was no forgiving such a sin as hers.

Posted by: John L | April 10, 2007 10:20 AM

Is this what you experienced all the time as a Catholic or was this an isolated incident?

Wow, people do get so angry about religion. I agree that it is hard not to get angry at someone or a group of people that believe everyone should follow the teachings of their faith. If you don't believe in their faith, whatever it might be, then you will feel like someone is forcing you to try to behave according to a narrative that feels to you like a "fairy tale."
HOWEVER, this statement;
"I personally believe that religion is the most evil, destructive force ever created by man."

isn't helpful. You don't propose that states therefore abolish the practice of religion, do you? When this has been done, it hasn't resulted in greater enlightenment or benevolence (Soviet Union, Republic of China, etc....)Doesn't religion to a certain extent seem inevitable? We are all here, none of us sure about how (not the scientific explanation, but the existential one)or why, isn't it obvious that people would come up with ways to explain that?
Additionally I find that people who identify themselves as atheists have one bewildering (to me, anyway) thing in common with many very religious people; that is the absolute certainty that they are right. Both atheists and very religious people are basing their belief on a faith that they are right...and maybe they are, but they can't really know, any more than anyone else, that they are absolutely right. Atheists often get stuck on undermining one particular religious story or another, any of which may in fact be ridiculous or untrue...but how can any of us really be so sure? You cannot absolutely disprove the existence of god anymore that you can absolutely prove it. It all depends on faith, and in this case atheists and the religiously fundamental have more in common with one another, than they do with the rest of us.

"But basically, people are saying that religion is personal (it is) and it should not be discussed in public"

Lou, I've only skimmed the comments so may have missed where someone said don't talk about it at all, but I will say that to me there is a difference between talking about your religion and proselytizing (sp?), a line that often seems to be crossed and perhaps one that seems to be in a different place depending on which side of it you are on.

I have no problem with people talking about their church and their church-related activities. But there are times when my religious acquaintances make statements that to me seem to either assume that all good people share their religion (which I do not) or to be getting forceful about the idea that I should believe as they do. Those sort of statements can be very offensive to a person who is not religious but nonetheless considers themself to be a moral and "good" person. But I think that more often than not, those acquaintances have no idea that that is the implication of their words - I think they believe so much that they simply don't see how it could come across to a non-believer. So that is something I struggle with.

There is blatant intolerance from the religious and the non-religious, but to me that is relatively easy to dismiss. The harder part is in the grey areas where the strength of a persons belief simply becomes incompatible with that of another, and then it becomes difficult to talk about it without creating conflict.

KLB SS MD - I am not comfortable with that either. Glad we agree. :)

There are some very stubborn people out there who keep trying to make anecdotal (sp?) evidence proof of something more.

"I once knew someone who had this really bad thing happen to them. Oh yeah, and they were Catholic, so aren't those Catholics all terrible..........."

At work, why not just say--I'll be out of the office on Friday; let's do lunch another day (or if it's a business lunch you have to attend, just don't eat if you're fasting, or order fish or veg if you're abstaining). Maybe it's harder in the DC area than in the northeast. In the working environments I've been in, no one would ask or comment.

It's not that you have to hide your religion, you just don't have to advertise it at work. And no, I don't think discussions about what you believe about abortion are appropriate in the workplace or in the public schools (because there are children there who are a captive audience). Talk about it all you want at a dinner party, or write whatever letter to the editor you would like.

Interesting topic today, particularly since I'm on my own religious journey.

a) I agree with the posters who say that religion shouldn't just be taught, but lived. I don't think that it matters so much if I can name the four gospels (which I can), but rather whether I can interpret what they are saying and apply their teachings to my everyday life. Naming them is just an exercise in memory.

b) I also think that to understand your religion you have to learn about other religions and you have to question what is said by priests, rabbis, imans, etc. There is nothing wrong with questioning what you are being taught. I think that many problems with religious connotations are caused by a lack of questioning of religous beliefs.

c) On the role of women in the Catholic church - please remember that there were more gospels written than the 4 that were included in the Bible (you also have to place the Bible in its historical context). To really understand the role of women, you have to read these other gospels as well as other cannonical literature. Interesting enough, the pope's homily was partly about the role of women in the church. He said something to the effect that without women, there would be no church.

My husband and I don't have children yet, but when we do, we plan to take them to church with us and teach them about our religion as well as others. How do parents reconcile their religious doubts when teaching about religion to their children? Do you discuss these with them?

(MEGAN) Those sort of statements can be very offensive to a person who is not religious but nonetheless considers themself to be a moral and "good" person.

Megan - If you are offended why not just say so and leave it at that? something like "I don't share those beliefs and please don't assume I do." I don't understand why people can't be offended anymore. We are a nation living in fear of offending one another. Nobody discusses problems, they accuse and belittle. Not you personally but your remark just set me off.

So reticent regular - Do you think that the workplace is the only place that the religious should not talk publicly? Because I was talking about everyday life.

Megan - If you are offended why not just say so and leave it at that? something like "I don't share those beliefs and please don't assume I do."

_________________________

If Megan is at work, she may feel that there could be negative repurcussions if she comments. She shouldn't be put in that position at work.

What texts would you recommend for non-religious families? Bertrand Russell? Charles Darwin? ;-)

Seriously, though, I give Christians a lot of flack for forcing their ideas down my throat (I still don't understand the deal with Easter. People coming back from the dead? In my horror-movie mind, that's a zombie--not cool). But occasionally, I'll meet a person who genuinely wants to share their religion with me, accepts me as a non-believer, and just wants to spread a little joy. On those occasions, I attended whatever service they invited me to, and had a fantastic time. I would meet the kindest, most friendly people, hear declarations of love and faith, and my heart would swell. The ones who accept outsiders are usually the most kind and loving. The ones who are on a converting crusade are the ones I just don't bother with. The ones who talk the loudest are the fakes, and the ones who quietly live their lives in peace and harmony are the ones I think I could learn a thing or two from.

It seems everyone I talk to pokes fun at Mormons, and pretends not to be home when they come up the walk. But I've found them to be especially welcoming and kind. My aunt and uncle are Mormon, and one time during a pancake breakfast, we ran out of syrup. They went to their house and brought back a gallon jug of syrup. When I asked why they had so much, I learned that it is a Mormon tradition to keep a year's worth of food stockpiled, so in the event of an emergency they would have enough to give to their neighbors.

The profundity of that desire to help one's neighbor will probably stick with me for the rest of my life.

Lou,
I think that a bar is not a good place for religious or political discussions (esp not after a few adult beverages) :-)

People would find it offensive to suggest to an employee should conceal, or avoid disclosing, that he has two kids and a wife. In fact many on this blog advocate that men should tell their bosses they are leaving early to pick up a sick child or won't be in on Friday because of a field trip, in order to raise awareness that dads seek balance, too. Yet those same proponents of openness when it comes to family priorities want others to scrub their work conversations of any hint of religious belief. What hypocrisy.

When I asked why they had so much, I learned that it is a Mormon tradition to keep a year's worth of food stockpiled, so in the event of an emergency they would have enough to give to their neighbors.

They do keep a stockpile so that they can feed their family in case of an emergency. They also have farms where they grow food for the needy. I have found that the LDS people are some of the kindest people I have every met in my life. Yes, it was hard to live in Utah as a "liberal" but I have some very good friends, some are better than the ones I grew up with.

"Meesh

You may "know all about the Bible", but
you should know how to spell "altar" if you were an "altar server"!!

"I think it is important for kids to learn about all religions "

"My Catholic school did a great job of exposing us to all religions."

I find this impossible to believe and a little silly for you to have written.

Learning about ALL religions must have taken up a great deal of time..."

Smurfette, I went to a Catholic university and learned about other religions. A good start is Huston Smith's book "The World's Religions."

"Megan - If you are offended why not just say so and leave it at that? something like "I don't share those beliefs and please don't assume I do." I don't understand why people can't be offended anymore. We are a nation living in fear of offending one another."

Anon for several reasons, that's an interesting reaction.

Sometimes I do say something, sometimes I don't. Certainly when somebody is being more blatant about it, I speak right up - for example, when a co-worker distributed pamphlets from their church urging us to vote against gay marriage because gay people are sinners who are destroying our country (yes, that is really what they said), I certainly said something.

But when it's a passing remark and I can tell the speaker has no idea how it could come across, I'm not sure it always makes sense, so it just depends on what it is and who the person is.

How does that make a "religious" person like me feel? I can't comment that I went to church for Easter?

Sure, if we're discussing what you did for the weekend. But don't look disgusted if I say I did something other than go to church for Easter.

Or should I not be ok to say that I don't believe in abortion (as my religion teaches)?

If we're discussing abortion, sure you can say you're against it for religious reasons, but realize that this is not a rational argument that will persuade someone who does not share your religious views. So don't expect other people to make their moral judgements based on your religion.

Or how about the simple fact that I can't go to such and such a restaurant on Good Friday because I am fasting?

Again, this is fine if I've asked you to go to some restaurant on Good Friday, as long as it's not said with contempt that I am not fasting on Good Friday. Or that I should have known/assumed you were fasting.

I don't have a problem with people worshipping whatever they want in whatever manner they want as long as they don't feel the need to talk to me about it. My relationship with God is intensely personal and I am appalled when people ask me about it or talk to me about their religion. Examples:

A manager at my company saying "I've learned that God is my only true boss".

A neighbor asking me what church my family attends.

People praying at a department meeting, even if it's to themselves. Go be pious elsewhere.

I have found this irritating all my life. Surely, I'm not alone. I think it's ostentatious to flaunt your religion, faith, practices.

Her mom made it plain that in HER home there was no place for such a disobedient daughter, and there was no forgiving such a sin as hers.

Posted by: John L | April 10, 2007 10:20 AM

This person was not following the teaching of the Catholic church I know. All sins can be forgiven. At my church, a baby was baptized a few weeks ago and his parents were not married.

People praying at a department meeting, even if it's to themselves. Go be pious elsewhere.

People have a right to pray. If they aren't asking you to do it, what the hell is your problem.

"At my church, a baby was baptized a few weeks ago "

At my church, babies cannot be baptized, only adults.

Megan, I am offended daily, sometimes hourly and have learned the trigger point as to when I speak up as well. More to the point is that most people want to stop everyone from saying anything even slightly offensive, as if the Constitution affords them the right NOT to feel uncomfortable.

Conversation, discussion, the give and take of ideas, they don't exist for some people. Their mantra is "It is my way or the highway." Look at some of the statements on today's blog, most are from anti-religious posters. Intolerance is what they preach but they are the intolerant onces.

"At my church, babies cannot be baptized, only adults."

Its time you find a better church!

"I came back to religion on my own when I hit a rough spot in my adult life, and was surprised by how much of a comfort it really can be."

This is the true purpose of religion. To help us feel we're not alone, to make us believe someone is watching out for us, and that we can handle anything if we stay strong in our beliefs. If believing in a god helps you overcome your problems, I'm all for it. I think it's a great thing. Meditation and exercise do the same for me. If your religion comforts you, gives you strength, wonderful. If your religion makes you spew words of hate and bomb health clinics, maybe it's time to shop for a more peaceful religion.

While we're on the topic, I have a question to the religious folks who are commenting today.

Where I live, in the last 10 years or so, it has become common to see businesses including the Christian fish symbol in their advertisements. This is true for all sorts of businesses, not just those that might have some clear connection to religion - electricians, garden stores, hardware stores, shoe stores - whatever. I think this is strange and I honestly have a hard time knowing how to interpret this. Is it supposed to indicate that they are more trustworthy? Is there some effort to get Christians to support other Christian businesses? Is it just that they are so committed to their faith they need to advertise it with their business? Do they not want to deal with non-chritians? I am not trying to be snarky or anti-religious, I just really am curious as to why this has become so common recently, and figure this is as good a time to ask as any.

People are flawed (religious or not) and religions are made up of these flawed people.

Posted by: Regular but anonymous | April 10, 2007 09:33 AM

EXACTLY!!! You just proved my point (and interestingly, disproved your own)- why should one be institutionlaized by a church??? why can't one be spiritual on their own?? people are flawed- so why follow a church led by a MAN?? Why follow something led by people?

Posted by: | April 10, 2007 09:43 AM

Interesting you consider that to prove your point. But okay. We should always do everything individually. There is no purpose worth joining together with others. That is best. There should be no businesses, companies, schools, unions, social action groups, countries, governments, or families. The idea that "united we stand, divided we fall" is meaningless.

Mona - I agree with your comments about Mormons. It's interesting that it is so often acceptable in sophisticated, supposedly tolerant, circles to Mormon-bash. It's as though there's an unwritten rule that if no one representing the bashed group is around, it's somehow not as offensive. For whatever an anecdotal experience is worth, the Mormons I've known have made more meaningful efforts to live their faith then do many of the rest of those of us who profess a faith.

"Where I live, in the last 10 years or so, it has become common to see businesses including the Christian fish symbol in their advertisements."

In my place of work, the Christian fish symbol has the word "creationism" inside it, and is being eaten by a bigger fish--who has feet--labeled "Darwinism." But then again, I work in evolutionary developmental biology. We're just a bunch of blasphemers anyway. Go ahead and give up on us. ;-)

One of the strangest things I saw was at this gas station on Balt-Annap Blvd. The pumps had Bible verses on posters above them, and the speakers were blaring some sermon. I'm assuming the station was owned independently. I wasn't exactly offended, but I also didn't go back there. Something about it was just too weird for me.

People have a right to pray. If they aren't asking you to do it, what the hell is your problem.

I think it's showing off. I think that you can pray without having to close your eyes, bow your head, and make a broadway production out of it.

My favorite way to pray is with my arms outstretched and my face turned toward the sky, eyes wide open, when I'm ALONE in the woods. You don't have to assume the position to pray.

"Megan, I am offended daily, sometimes hourly"

Yikes, that's a lot of being offended!

I think it's showing off. I think that you can pray without having to close your eyes, bow your head, and make a broadway production out of it.

Well, they have the right to do it their way and you have the right to do it yours. Be respectful.

""Keep your religion to yourself."
Let me point out that the above command is a bulleying statement equivalent to telling someone to shut-up.
5 demerits for the anti-religious."

I am not anti-religious--I am anti-zealot and anti-bullying which is what many in the Christian right are--zealots and bullies. I am entitled to peace--I am entitled to practice my own religion without being approached by others nor being subjected to laws enacted based on religious beliefs. I'm not the bully--people like you are.

A good start is Huston Smith's book "The World's Religions."

I have that one too. Nice overview.

"Her mom made it plain that in HER home there was no place for such a disobedient daughter, and there was no forgiving such a sin as hers."

Check out the aarp site/forum. You find a LOT of people there with exactly that outlook. A fair number of them are at the grandparenting thread, complaining about how they aren't permitted to see their grandchildren. I wonder what, really, is going down...

"At my church, a baby was baptized a few weeks ago"

I find that odd, myself. Mind you, I was baptized twice as an infant, both times by Catholic priests. It would seem to me that being baptized after you have some notion of what is going on is more likely to be meaningful to the baptized person. But whatever. They baptize infants at the church I attend too. I surmise it gives their parents some measure of comfort.

I just wanted to say thanks to "Good stories" and "Randommom" for their ideas on sharign