First again!

Employers need to realize that workers have lives outside of the workplace. When did companies start thinking jobs mandated more than 40 hours a week anyway?

What do you do to keep work and home from damaging each other?

I always remember my first priority: My family. Everything other than that is gravy.

I try to remember it, too, for others. People who've worked for me get lots and lots and lots of chances. I try not to create jobs/write job descriptions like the only person who will fill the job is a single person with no real life.

I also give 100% to my job as much as I can. Being a star performer gets you a lot of leeway when you're having daycare difficulties or car trouble or what-have-you.

"Being a star performer gets you a lot of leeway when you're having daycare difficulties or car trouble or what-have-you."

Correct, but it seems that the mediocre employees are the ones that ask for the most "special treatment". Wonder why???

Ha, ha, ha. This sounds a lot like the advice they're been giving for years at Family Support Centers for military families. In short, the spouse (usually the wife) who is holding down the homefront is told to keep it together and not "bother" the deployed spouse with problems at home-- since it will impact on his/her ability to do his/her job. The idea is that when your husband (or wife) is engaged in potentially deadly work in a dangerous environment, they don't need to be 'distracted' by any outside worries like whether the dog needs to go to the vet, whether or not Junior has a learning disability and so forth. While it's probably true that distraction is not a good idea, this is the stuff that places an unbelievable toll on military families -- the woman is told that for the good of her husband the organization she can't even ASK him to behave as though he's a member of the family. This is one of many reasons why military life is so stressful and the divorce rate is so high.

Now it sounds as though some people want to give civilians the same advice. And I LOVE that line about how good employees have a week's worth of meals frozen in the freezer so that they're not distracted worrying about what to make for dinner. Do you think that advice was meant for BOTH spouses or only the wife? I don't know about you, but I'll be surprised if it leads to a sudden outbreak of lasagna making and freezing by all the men of this country. Gentlemen, get out your tupperware!

Remembering you work to live not live to work. My family is my top priority. Also, even if having young children dampens your career, why not slow down for a while. You can always revamp when they are older. I don't think you can have it all, all of the time. And I agree with John L. Work should not be more then 40 hours a week. Just the long commutes are killing people.

foamgnome |

"Just the long commutes are killing people."

Isn't the long commute usually the employee's choice?

John L., Foamgnome, I don't think it's that simple.

Plenty of the so-called "white collar" jobs pay you as a salaried employee not in exchange for 40 hours, but in exchange for whatever is necessary (or deemed reasonable by the culture of the employer's workplace). T

his really hits home with me right now because I'm in an unforseen busy period at work..... My annual "without the kids" vacation, for which you must line up a relative 9-12 months in advance to babysit/housesit just got shortened to a 3-day trip, because work needs me. That stinks, but its also why they pay me.

Yes, I can take a lower-paying, lower-responsibility position and move my family to Culpeper, but I don't think that would be good for my quality-of-life either. Those of us who are chained to the desk are also working to live, but we've picked a brand of work that kicks and screams its way into your family time without apology.

I keep telling myself that the exchange is that maybe I can pay for the kids college without issue and still be able to retire while I am young enough to enjoy it. I hope I am right.....

foamgnome |

"Just the long commutes are killing people."

Isn't the long commute usually the employee's choice?

Posted by: | April 23, 2007 08:11 AM
Yes and no. There is not enough affordable housing close in to jobs. And not enough reliable public transportation. Even our DC metro system does not go around the city. All it does is spider web into the city. Making commutes very long. Even if everyone was willing and could afford housing closer into the city, there is not enough vacancies for the number of people who would need housing. Lastly, when two people are working, they need to find middle ground at a home base. Very often, couples work in opposite directions. I think more telecommute centers might help. Not everyone is commuting an hour more to live in a mcmansion. Some people are doing that just to get a small town house or condo.

Proud Papa

"I keep telling myself that the exchange is that maybe I can pay for the kids college without issue and still be able to retire while I am young enough to enjoy it. I hope I am right....."

And what if you're wrong and your marriage goes up in flames and your kids end up hating you? And you end up a lonely old man?

Is it really worth your "quality of life" for now?

Proud Papa,

I'm a salaried employee as well, but since I work for the guvmint they don't like us to work more than 40 hours/week. My peers that work in the private industry agree that "whatever gets the work done" is their standard catch phrase, though.

In fact, my wife routinely works 45-60 hours a week for an engineering consultant firm, mainly because her boss has no clue on how to manage a project to avoid last minute, rush work to get a job out on time.

A few weeks ago she worked 28 hours straight with little food and no sleep just to get something done on time that her boss had not looked at until the day before it had to go out.

I've warned her when she gets pregnant, she'll have to lay the law down to her boss about these long, energy draining last minute job requests. Fortunately she's his best employee, but he's just not a very good project manager and has to rely on his best employees (my wife) to get things done when there's not enough time to do it in.

John L., Foamgnome, I don't think it's that simple.

Plenty of the so-called "white collar" jobs pay you as a salaried employee not in exchange for 40 hours, but in exchange for whatever is necessary (or deemed reasonable by the culture of the employer's workplace). T

his really hits home with me right now because I'm in an unforseen busy period at work..... My annual "without the kids" vacation, for which you must line up a relative 9-12 months in advance to babysit/housesit just got shortened to a 3-day trip, because work needs me. That stinks, but its also why they pay me.

Yes, I can take a lower-paying, lower-responsibility position and move my family to Culpeper, but I don't think that would be good for my quality-of-life either. Those of us who are chained to the desk are also working to live, but we've picked a brand of work that kicks and screams its way into your family time without apology.

I keep telling myself that the exchange is that maybe I can pay for the kids college without issue and still be able to retire while I am young enough to enjoy it. I hope I am right.....

Posted by: Proud Papa | April 23, 2007 08:13 AM
Not all 40 hour a week jobs have crappy salaries either. I work part time or full time (depending on the survey schedule). But even full time, I generally work 40 hours a week. I will be able to retire and pay for college as well. But I drive a modest car and live in a modest home. The problem is not all 40+ hour a week jobs pay as well as your does. Some are still putting in 50 or so hours a week and still making under 60K a year. Those are professional jobs too. Just not as well paid as your is. Your an attorney in a firm, right? I sometimes get all the posters mixed up.

foamgnome

Didn't know everyone works/lives in the D.C. area!!

Oooh I'm very opinionated about this one.

I personally think that demanding longer hours of people (not the occasional rush, but all the time) makes them worse employees, period.

Sure, the stress lines show up the most clearly when people are dealing with this inconvenience we call "family" (ha) but in fact, over time I believe that people who are NOT out renewing their spirits and creativity and everything else by participating in a wide variety of LIFE activities do burn out.

And they gradually suck as employees, and don't find the creative solutions, and then guess what? It continues to take MORE time to get things done.

Now of course there are exceptions - people who are thrilled by their jobs and who consistently fill their creative/productivity wells at them. But that is not, IMHO, the majority of the work force.

I see this constantly around me - a mistake or a rut or a poorly thought through or planned decision costs hours and hours of effort and that's money. Sure, we make it to the deadline, but at what cost? The cost of the space and time to plan properly for the next one.

And once people are used to working in crisis mode it is VERY hard to get them to back out of it.

Also people do get into this weird entitlement cycle... I worked last night so it's okay to be on a blog right now, etc. Me too. :-)

Anyways I'll stop ranting at least until later after I read other comments. :)

Hmmm. The marriage part I am not too worried about. Proud Mama is also white collar and has been in the same business I am in now, so she understands. Also her dad continues to be in this line of work, so she knows what she signed up for.

I am also not worried about the kids hating me, so much as being resentful about the busy periods where I'm not continually available to play catch and such. There are down times during the year when I work 40 hour weeks, so I'm not concerned about being completely out of touch. But the reality is that I will eventually miss a key game, recital, play or camping trip. It hasn't happened yet, but that day will come. And when it does I will just have to be honest about it with my child and take it from there.

Yes, some days my current quality of life does suck. The point I was making though, is that even if I "slow down", meaning take less $$, move to a less expensive area and work less, there is no guarantee that I will have a better quality of life. Suppose then that my "slower" job is totally unfulfilling and I hate it? Not an improvement. Suppose my commute is worse or my neighbors are worse or my more "practical" house requires much more maintenance on my part, etc.

I'm just saying that there is no guarantee that if I scrap everything and start over it would be an improvement.

So, I'm thankful for my life today which is mostly good, but has some high stress/low quality of life periods.

foamgnome

Didn't know everyone works/lives in the D.C. area!!

Posted by: | April 23, 2007 08:27 AM
Not everyone does. But this is a DC paper. So we talk mainly about this area. Our commuting problems are indicative of many large cities in this country. If you have a different experience, please feel free to share it with us.

I think that a lot of this depends on the treatment of the employee. If you have a family emergency and your employer is understanding, you will be likely to work harder for said employer who seemingly cares about you and yours.
On the flip side, I have been in scenarios where the boss could care less if your spouse was in the hospital with a medically induced coma... working for people who don't care about anything but themselves is awful and I do not recommend it if you have a choice.

PS- I thought this was about how to wreck your career. We really need guidance on this, so I'll rack my brain to come up with a "to do" list for those who need help wrecking their career.

In my experience, employees stressed at home increasingly seek to manipulate office politics as their safety net and "shuffle off" work responsibilities onto colleagues. They tend to become sycophants and untrustworthy co-workers.

Your an attorney in a firm, right? I sometimes get all the posters mixed up.

Posted by: foamgnome | April 23, 2007 08:25 AM

Nope, I'm at an IT firm. Proud Mama is an attorney. I'm hoping she makes partner somewhere so I can retire early :-)

In my experience, employees stressed at home increasingly seek to manipulate office politics as their safety net and "shuffle off" work responsibilities onto colleagues. They tend to become sycophants and untrustworthy co-workers.

Posted by: party-of-one | April 23, 2007 08:46 AM

And in my experience, co-workers who hold this type of opinion tend to be bad teammates and employees. When things get busy, count on them to run for the employee manual to tell you whats "not in their job description" rather than looking for creative ways to get the job done.

Then there's also the issue of having a child and boom, you find yourself no longer with the same drive to advance your career. I'm now at the point where I could soon be promoted, but I'm no longer interested in better pay, more responsibiity and more power because now that I'm a mom, this promotion is at too high a cost--less time with my child. Can't believe this is me now. But nothing is more important than my child. My drive now is figuring out how I can get a job where I can pick up my child after school and avoid after care. And I'll take less pay and less interesting work just to find this flexibility.

It truly amazes me how my priorities have really, truly shifted. And I wonder how long this shift will last. Is it permanent? Am I reverting the movement?

Thanks, Chris, for the idea!

WorkingMomX's Top 10 List of Career Wrecking Initiatives

10. Be consistently late without calling, even after being spoken to about it.

9. Be seen at a job fair by a member of the HR department or your own supervisor.

8. Tell a big lie (about a close family member's illness, for example) that causes the rest of your department to mobilize resources, even to collect money. Then get caught.

7. Go into your supervisor's office and read his/her self evaluation aloud to several other members of the department, injecting sarcastic comments, who then nark on you. Be forced to depart shortly thereafter.

6. If you have access to a network system such as email or payroll, snoop around and see what you find. Then talk about it.

5. Steal from your co-workers.

4. File EEOC complaints for each of your three supervisors, claiming racial discrimination. Do this for multiple employers in the same town.

3. Threaten or stalk co-workers.

2. Look at pornographic content (including but not limited to bestiality, child porn, and hardcore S&M) on the internet while at work. Leave a website up for "that cute little technician" from IS to see when they come to fix a problem you've called in.

1. Constantly post to a WaPo blog while at work. :)

The two co-workers in my office who play the worst office politics and constantly shuffle all of their work off on others are both childless (and will never have children) and only one is married. There are plenty of cruddy co-workers out there of every stripe.

Hey, this list can get really long:

11. When getting annual performance evaluations, don't admit you need to improve your work habits; just claim you are "different" and need more time to "get it right".

(Yes, I've got an employee like this. Three years later and she's still needing 2x the time and instruction to get even simple tasks completed)

12. Constantly tell everyone above you in your chain of command that you have no loyalty to your job, you'll take a lateral to a perceived 'better job' if it becomes available, even though you told the interviewer for your current job (me, incidentally) you would stay there if hired and gain valuable experience (that describes my OTHER employee).

13. Have a boss that hires incompetent employees, and then asks you to repair the work the incompetent worker destroyed (this happened to my wife for over a year until the bad worker left recently). Great morale builder, that one.

I know this is an off topic question...but I'm hoping all of you would be kind enough to answer and offer your experiences and advice.

How do you all handle the "witching hour"--meaning dinner hour. Here's my scenario:

I leave work at 4:45-ish, pick up my DS at aftercare around 5:15...we walk in the house about 5:25-ish. He wants to see which neighborhood kids can play...he wants my attention....and many times he has a meltdown. Then, I finally get dinner going...and then hubby walks in the door. He does his version of the same thing my DS does... has his own version of a grown-up meltdown... feels stressed by wahtever he has to get done in the course of the evening... and the whole evening can get pretty stressful. What's the evening like in your home?

I know this is an off topic question...but I'm hoping all of you would be kind enough to answer and offer your experiences and advice.

How do you all handle the "witching hour"--meaning dinner hour. Here's my scenario:

I leave work at 4:45-ish, pick up my DS at aftercare around 5:15...we walk in the house about 5:25-ish. He wants to see which neighborhood kids can play...he wants my attention....and many times he has a meltdown. Then, I finally get dinner going...and then hubby walks in the door. He does his version of the same thing my DS does... has his own version of a grown-up meltdown... feels stressed by wahtever he has to get done in the course of the evening... and the whole evening can get pretty stressful. What's the evening like in your home?

Posted by: Off Topic Balance Question | April 23, 2007 09:05 AM

Leslie did a whole blog a while back on this topic. Try searching through her archives and I think you will find it. I just make meals a head of time, so we just have to reheat. Also crock pot with timer helps.

Both my dh and I made sure that we were working close to home-we both did not look at jobs that were more than 8 miles from home (we live in the city, so at least I feel that if I'm paying the taxes to do that I might as well have a short commute). We both are home early and have decided that that is important to us. We found jobs that work with our lifestyles. And this is me, with an almost 4 year gap in my work history with no problem finding a job. Sorry if that offends people, it is just a true statement.

Also

Break into tears at every performance evaluation and flounce into the bathroom.

Talk about the sacrifices you've made for the job nonstop.

Have "panic attacks" when you feel like a long weekend.

Call in sick constantly at the worst times.

Ask the boss "Are you calling me a liar?" in front of others.

Bore your fellow workers with constant chit chat about your kids and their poop habits.

How to wreck your career:
12. Re-decorate the office with silly string and hang condoms on all the doorknobs.
11. Use crayons for all paperwork.
10. Don't show up. (ala Office Space), don't quit, just stop going.
9. Show up drunk/ act drunk.
8. Sexually harass EVERYONE (only if they don't like it- careful, it may backfire).
7. Expose yourself (this one may backfire as well).
6. Write/draw/post obscene things on the bulletin/white board (in permanent marker)...and sign them.
5. Yell out how your boss is an a-hole every half-hour (ex: "The time is now 9:30 and X is an A-hole!" When they come to ask you why, pretend not to recognize them and confide in them how AWFUL the boss is.
4. Blast polka, opera, or gangsta music whenever your co-workers or boss try to talk to you.
3. Forward all your calls to your boss' line and make them act as your secretary.
2. Subscribe your employer to questionable email lists and forward them Nigerian Spam.
1. Chop up their office plants and leave a trail of clippings back to your desk.

Break into tears at every performance evaluation and flounce into the bathroom.

Talk about the sacrifices you've made for the job nonstop.

Have "panic attacks" when you feel like a long weekend.

Call in sick constantly at the worst times.

Ask the boss "Are you calling me a liar?" in front of others.

Bore your fellow workers with constant chit chat about your kids and their poop habits.

It's okay, I am sure that therapy can fix these issues for you.

"Over the past 20 or so years, the average workday has increased significantly"

I think this would be the problem.

That and things like e-mail, cell phones and Blackberries have extended work into the home, as well. There seems to be less and less of a work/home line.

Perhaps what all these studies should be looking at is the effect of the increased workday has on family, not the other way 'round. Because I work from home now at my own business, and it's amazing how much more efficient I am without 20 billion quasi-useless meetings to attend, inane phone calls or voice mails to attend to, and e-mails to read and reply to. Eight hours a day is more than enough to actually get my work done.

I also agree with the above poster who mentioned salaried white collar jobs. I've worked at companies as a salaried employee and during big projects where everyone had to chip in, the hourly employees took more money home than I did because they could get time-and-a-half overtime and I could not.

Most memorable: for Y2K my then boss irrationally decided that I was to be at work from 5 am 12/31 to 3 am 1/1. Why? Because as company webmaster, she felt it was my job to monitor our industry as the time change rolled.

The logic of this defeated not just me, but many in our small company. Because I knew less about the industry than many other employees - I just made the web site run.

Everyone else who worked extra hours that long day got significant OT - I got $50, finagled by the accountant because she felt sorry for me and thought the whole thing was BS and she really had to fight for my boss to sign off on it. My boss was amazed when I quit a few weeks later.

Work is getting to be too much, not family responsibilities. And I say that as someone childless!

Women Make Less 1 Year After College

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: April 23, 2007
Filed at 8:48 a.m. ET

NEW YORK (AP) -- Women make only 80 percent of the salaries their male peers do one year after college; after 10 years in the work force, the gap between their pay widens further, according to a study released Monday.

The study, by the American Association of University Women Educational Foundation, found that 10 years after college, women earn only 69 percent of what men earn.

Even after controlling for hours, occupation, parenthood, and other factors known to affect earnings, the study found that one-quarter of the pay gap remains unexplained. The group said that portion of the gap is ''likely due to sex discrimination.''

''Over time, the unexplained portion of the pay gap grows,'' the group said in a news release.

Catherine Hill, the organization's director of research, said: ''Part of the wage difference is a result of people's choices, another part is employer's assumptions of what people's choices will be. ... Employers assume that young women are going to leave the work force when they have children, and, therefore, don't promote them.''

The organization found that women's scholastic performance was not reflected in their compensation. Women have slightly higher grade point averages than men in every major, including science and math. But women who attend highly selective colleges earn the same as men who attend minimally selective colleges, according to the study.

''The pay gap is not going to disappear just through educational achievements,'' Hill said.

ha, then try balancing in remembering to pack your car that morning with whatever tools, etc you need to drop by your parent's house to fix the 12 things that have managed to break in the last week after work which they can no longer fix themselves, discovering that you didn't bring the right drill bit, etc, running to the hardware store, and all that jazz too. Or when THEY call you at work to say that the FOO is broken, or that they've hurt themselves. Or that their flight home is delayed and so you need to take off and take grandma to the doc etc... its neverending fun. (or you get fluffy for another few days, only fluffy doesn't like your SO, so your SO is sleeping on the sofa and you and your dog and fluffy are sleeping in the bed) I've had to leave work, meet my mother where the tow truck had dragged her disabled vehicle, drive her to work, go back to work and then get her at the end of the day to bring her back to her car more times than I want to begin to admit to. Parents are as difficult as kids sometimes I think. I'm not sure they have any concept that you do anything at that desk other than field their calls as a concierge service "Plumbing, Electronics, and Auto service, where may I drive you today?" or better "Whats' wrong?!?"

Chasmosaur got it right: "Perhaps what all these studies should be looking at is the effect of the increased workday has on family, not the other way 'round."

The prejudice is in the question itself. It shows that the US culture values work above all and values families less and "having a life" even less than that. We get less leave than many workers in other countries as well. I'm not advocating something as extreme as the situations in France or Germany, but there has to be some middle ground.

Your job is what allows you to have a home life and a family; try having a decent home, family and life without a decent job. Employers don't demand you work more than 40 hours , it8s just that to do a decnet job in todays environment requires it.

John L: wrt no. 11, I worked with someone like that- the vp and other directors were constantly telling everyone: hey, he's dutch, so that's his way. But then when I would say something to him, my (highly unqualified boss) would say to *me*: oh, you need to talk to him differently, he's dutch. So I was the one ( and others as well) who had to change the way I did things because of him-but he had to make no changes at all. I'm no longer at that company.

"We both are home early and have decided that that is important to us. We found jobs that work with our lifestyles."

Same here. Work 7:30 am - 4 pm. No nights, no weekends, no holidays EVER.

10 minute commute to work.

Dinner on the table by 5.

Tack on vacation day to 3 day holiday weekends a lot.

Lives are calm and relaxed. No frenzied rushes. Plenty of time to stop and smell the roses.

Arlington Mom - it was a Canadian study.

Dotted, Please be on here today! I REALLY need to know the brand of those tennis shoes you were talking about last Friday.

Thank you.

Employers don't need to realize anything about your life outside of work. If you can't come into your job and devote 8 hours a day to working then you should be fired. It really gets old when you have co-workers constantly on the phone with their kids, regularly taking off early from work to go meet their kids, coming in late consistently because of their kids, taking extended lunch hours in the summer to be with their kids.

Chris, I have to disagree with you when you say "If you can't come into your job and devote 8 hours a day to working then you should be fired."

I think this is an unrealistic expectation. People have lives and stuff (or sh*t, since I'm trying to make Blogstat's next foul-mouthed poster list) happens. I certainly know of supervisors who think this is reasonable, but they are usually unhappy with almost everyone in their department/group.

I truly feel that if an employee is trying to do his/her best at work, and is willing to be accommodating in exchange for being accommodated, it's a good thing. In other words, if you're going to need to be out a few times within a couple of weeks to find a new daycare or meet with school administrators, be willing to come in on a weekend to catch up with your work.

Side note: I've worked in DC, NYC, and now the Raleigh area. There is a HUGE difference in terms of what's tolerated here vs. DC/NYC. They don't just talk about work-life balance here -- they act.

Christopher,

Yeah, how dare those employees actually have their lives intrude into their careers! I mean, how thoughtless of them to do that; don't they know that when they are at work, nothing else is important?

(turning off sarcasm button now)

Christopher: there wouldn't be a whole lot of people to work with then. Just saying-if you really wanted to fire everyone, they'd go work for a better employer.

The whole "employees with kids are slackers" bunch gets to come out again today. Oh joy. Where's Childless by Choice to tell us how superior she is?

I worked for the most abusive, misogynistic bigot at a federal agency, but the managers did nothing about it ---full well knowing the problems he created---because they thought he was very talented and quick. Yes, he has some talent---but he drives away women and minorites by being abusive, ruining their reputations by claiming they are less capable than they are and behaving like their children are a nuisance. My bottom line is: when you work for people who value that, its time to leave --

work will always be there....careers can be resurrected....family, children, friends, health, happiness and faith are the important things in life.

outta there

"I worked for the most abusive, misogynistic bigot at a federal agency, but the managers did nothing about it"

No, you didn't!!
I did!
I worked for the biggest A-hole ever!!!

There should be a Hall of Shame for these jerks!!!

Chasmosaur

Are you whining about someting that happened 5 years ago?

to Christoper:

If it was a matter of working 8 hours, I think it would be one thing, but I think a lot of us routinely work 9-10 hour days, and or take stuff home just so we look competitive in our still unstable market. There are still a lot of layoffs going on, and no one wants to find themselves in that situation. Its the extra time that gets you, even if you don't have the killer drive.

I believe strongly that being a parent can give you an edge in business from a skills perspective, but you do need to honor your work committments. I had an employee that worked part-time so she could be home with her kids after school. She got more done on a part-time schedule than some of my full-timers did. She knew she had to get her work done and didn't 'waste time' with lingering at the coffee machine or taking a long lunch. She knew that her part-time status was safe as long as she got her work done - whenever and however she could.

As for me, I choose to integrate work and home because that works for me. I just get to choose which hours I work, though sometimes my clients choose for me. My biggest challenge is stepping away from my computer on days when things are cranking. My kids help me keep my work in perspective...

"But most working parents would also agree that kids are a major distraction from work"

My work is a major interference to my kids and home life.

"And this wrecks their careers"

I have never cared that much about career. Work has never been much more than a paycheck to support my lifestyle. I would rather do work I like than dislike. I have never had work that I loved. More than anything, I'd rather not work. I guess that will come in retirement :).

to momma of one, i don't think you are "reverting the movement" at all. Do what works for your family!

I work until 5:30 and pick up my child at 6pm from aftercare, but he LOVES aftercare! I have a difficult time getting him to leave. So if your child is the type that doesn't enjoy aftercare you could either 1) work at a job that gives you the flexiblity to pick up your child right after school and thereby avoid aftercare, 2) look into why your child doesn't like aftercare-- and perhaps institute changes in the program to make your child (and perhaps many other children) very happy with the "new and improved" aftercare program or 3) look into other aftercare opportunities.

Anyway, your situation may actually be unusual since your child isn't liking aftercare-- most children seem to.

In situations like this I like to consider Kant's Catagorical Imperative-- applied to this situation, if everyone in your situation did as you do, what would be the problem?

Well, if everyone did what works best for their family, the "movement" would not be reverted-- or even if it were, the overall benefit of people doing what is right for their family over what is right for "the movement" would outweigh any harm to "the movement." That's my theory-- do what is the very best for your family and it is highly likely that that will in fact be the right thing for you to do for the community at large. If your child doesn't have the temperment to enjoy the current aftercare program, the aftercare program cannot be changed and there are no other aftercare program options for you, then the harm done to your child be continuing with an aftercare program even though it is a bad fit will do more more possibly harm to the community at large than if you continue with using aftercare out of concern for some ambiguous movement.

Same here. Work 7:30 am - 4 pm. No nights, no weekends, no holidays EVER.

10 minute commute to work.

Dinner on the table by 5.

Tack on vacation day to 3 day holiday weekends a lot.

Lives are calm and relaxed. No frenzied rushes. Plenty of time to stop and smell the roses.

Posted by: | April 23, 2007 09:25 AM

well, goody for you. The rest of us who aren't qualified for the sort of jobs that offer these hours should go ahead and jump off the roof, I suppose.

Everyone's performance at work is affected by external factors at some point or another. And everyone's capacity to effectively cope with those external situations and maintain the same level of performance at work is different as well.

I don't think it is fair to assume that employees with children are less capable of performing at a high level simply because they have children. I do think that having children can increase the probablity that those external distractions occur.

What do you do to keep work and home from damaging each other?

It can't be done. You have to choose which is the priortiy, and take your lumps.

For me, it's family first, that's an easy call. And this has meant less productivity at work, less interesting assignments (but with fewer night meetings), and in general, output that is generally B-level. Still good, but not excellent.

I put in a solid 40 hour week, but that's all. Most of my co-workers work longer weeks, and have greater flexibility for longer hours and late/weekend hours when a big work push happens.

In return I get more time with my wife and daughters. Again, it's an easy call for me.

In response to the "all the regular posters on the blog get mixed up" problem, I have a solution: does anyone want to write a Wikipedia type profile of the regular posters to help newbies keep everyone straight? I will post it if you do.

Christopher is not Chris, so PLEASE do not think that was me.

I once had a boss who would take off work for ANY excuse, surf the net while handing me all sorts of projects, and then publicly boast how she had been working for white males her whole life and now she had one working for her... this is the same boss who sent me off on the above trip and griped when I needed time to take care of my wife after her hospitalization because she wouldn't let me stay in town and monitor her in the first place (which would have prevented the hospital stay). Needless to say, I put in for a transfer... This boss soon got promoted despite being well over the weight limit (a no-no in the military).

A slightly off topic question: do your companies/firms make hourly (that is, not salaried) employees carry Blackberries or other email pdas so that they are essentially "tethered" to the office 24/7, even when not physically present?

We have an interesting (or maybe scary) situation that is arising because of this . . .

well, goody for you. The rest of us who aren't qualified for the sort of jobs that offer these hours should go ahead and jump off the roof, I suppose.

Posted by: | April 23, 2007 09:54 AM

Wow, that was bitter on a pathetic level.

WorkingMomX- the day someone hands me a crackberry and expects me to use it beyond normal hours is the day I either find a new job or get paid millions to make the snap decisions that require said crackberry.

My boss mostly didn't work for about 2 weeks so that she could stay home with her sick dog (UTI). She sent emails to her bosses and our entire department. It has now become a company joke. We are all wondering when she will be forced to say "adios".

Couples simply do not think enough about the real changes that will occur in their lives after having kids. Not only are they expensive--they require a completely different mindset. A parent needs to constantly have a provision plan, a backup plan. That is fine if a couple wants to do that.

The reason that some working parents and other employees have to alter their schedule which inconveniences others is becuase they dont think things through. They dont ask themselves long before they get pregnant EXACTLY how they will handle the obligations of being a parent. They end up being the parents without enough life insurance, disability insurance, or enough savings in bank. They are the parents that have to buy a new car becuase the other one doesn't hold a child seat. Every minor life issue turns into a freaking crisis.

All that family first stuff is fine. Lets do some up front planning first. You cant buy a car seat with love.

I believe that employers have the right to expect their employees to do their job--if an employee cannot do what is expected of their position, then it's time to look for work elsewhere.

I say this as a parent and as someone who has been a "boss". As I have always been responsible ensuring that my children were well cared for during my working day, I expect that of my employees as well. You need to ask yourself if you can do the job or not and be honest with yourself and your employer. Don't expect your employer to give you a billion chances.

I do find that since becoming a parent, I am more organized and focused on my work. Unfortunately, there are some parents who believe that they can cut out whenever they want, impose on the workplace and other employees for family related issues and so on. Certainly EVERYONE has emergencies and I believe employers should be understanding under those circumstances. What I find unbelievable are parents who do not have proper child care and who do not even think to have back-up plans for predictable events. Once you are a parent, it's time to grow up and become a responsible citizen--mostly for the sake of your family. Getting fired does not help the children.

I didn't see where momma of 1 said that the child didn't like the daycare. It seems that momma wants to avoid daycare because she wants to be with the child.

The whole social contract that used to exist between employees and employers has broken down - people change careers several times in ther lifetimes, and change jobs much more. We are used to negotiating salaries, titles, job descriptions - ut not hours. Our employers still feel like they own us while we are in their employ, and we refuse to learn how to negotiate for what we need. If our society really values efficiency and productivity, we should be capping the amount of hours spent on the job. We need to recharge and honor personal committments outside of our committments to our employers. 30 hrs. max. It's the only way to have an equitable balance between the job and other aspects of our lives. This way, a couple could stagger their schedules and both share as equal parters in running a household. Exceptions might be family-run businesses where family time is integrated with work. I had an employer who allowed me to work 6 hrs/day as a father of a new baby. I swear my productivity did not diminish one iota. And this allowed my wife to work in the afternoon/evening, giving her a break from the baby, and giving me time to bond with and take care of my son, and to be at home and recharge myself. The way we live our lives these days is self-inflicted pointless stupidity based on a destructive industrial model. This is not just about family. What if you want to pursue a degree? Fine if it is in the same field you are in, your employer might cover it. What if you want to study Philosophy? What if you want to pursue an avocation that might consume 20 hrs. of time during the week - music, art, volunteer work, social activism? These are the sorts of things that make us better, more valuable human beings and, incidentally, better employees. But not if you are constantly trying to get an edge on your colleague in the next cube. With employment rates as full as they are, all this is self-inflicted - especially if we collectively made the choice to cut back, and limit the amount of time we are willing to give to our employers.

I once had a boss who was "all family, all the time", to go the other extreme.

On occasion we would have to take overnight trips for meetings on our projects; she would insist that we return that evening instead of staying the night so she could be home for her children, even though her husband was more than capable of taking care of them for one evening alone. These trips often required 5 hour drives, one way.

On other occasions she simply refused to go, and sent me alone or with one of my subordinates. That was fine with me!

Wow, Jen, thanks for the post, but you're a bit deep for me. And my child is not yet in aftercare, being only 1.5 years old. I'm just planning for the future and what I wish for is that I can be home with her to have a normal, Rockwellian evening, not the 2 hours of rushed frenzy I now have. And I'll figure it out one way or another, even if it means taking a lesser job. But that's worth it to me. That was my point. I can't believe how things change. Isn't life great? Really.

when you have a boss who works constantly, using a blackberry to send memos and edit reports while on the metro, checks voicemail and email during meetings, brags about writing reports in bed while the spouse sleeps,everyone in the department looks like a slacker. This boss has two small kids and brags about being a great parent even while appearing at work related events on weekends. so anyone who does not put in 60 or 70 hours a week is seen as lazy by comparison. This boss dismisses any excuses for not doing so by impatiently saying, well *I* do it, and it works well for me. So sabotaging one's career here is easy, even effortless!

In response to the "all the regular posters on the blog get mixed up" problem, I have a solution: does anyone want to write a Wikipedia type profile of the regular posters to help newbies keep everyone straight? I will post it if you do.

Ha, as long as it is not written by one of the rude anon.

On topic, I work from home so it is easier for me to balance my time because I have no commute. I think bad employees come in all shapes and sizes too.

A slightly off topic question: do your companies/firms make hourly (that is, not salaried) employees carry Blackberries or other email pdas so that they are essentially "tethered" to the office 24/7, even when not physically present?

We have an interesting (or maybe scary) situation that is arising because of this . . .

Posted by: WorkingMomX | April 23, 2007 10:03 AM

No, we don't make it that easy for them. We require them to stay current on their e-mail using a web-based version, so they have to log in from home at least once at work, and preferably before their morning commute in order to respond to messages. A pda would make those expectations MUCH more reasonable.

No one expresses this requirement. We all know, though, that if a non-exempt employee doesn't put in this sort of effort or show this commitment, she or he will be reassigned to a less responsible, less renumerative role with the same title. The next time there is a layoff he or she will be most dispensable.

"does anyone want to write a Wikipedia type profile of the regular posters to help newbies keep everyone straight? "

Feudin' or lovefest?

As a boss, I have always told people who work for me to put their families ahead of the job, because that is what I do. However, I have had experiences in the past where that policy was abused.

What about aging parents? Employeers need to realize that we have to deal with them too. I used up all my vacation leave, sick leave and personal time last year to deal with my elderly mother in Florida. Many times I just had to drop what I was doing and go.

My employeer understood and that was probably because I checked in with the office via blackberry a few times a day (that got my mind off of my dying mom, even for a few minutes). However, I never used my situation as an excuse for not doing something.

well, goody for you. The rest of us who aren't qualified for the sort of jobs that offer these hours should go ahead and jump off the roof, I suppose.

Posted by: | April 23, 2007 09:54 AM

Wow, that was bitter on a pathetic level.

Posted by: | April 23, 2007 10:06 AM

I agree that the anon poster's comment wasn't the most mature response, but I rolled my eyes at the initial comment to which he responded, too. There are no jobs for which I qualify that offer those sorts of hours, at least not without moving, and we are done moving at this point. The bills come in every month whether or not my husband and I find our work lives fulfilling.

It's a great idea for any adult who finds him or herself working too much to re-evaluate (on a regular basis) his or her options, but there's a holier-than-thou aspect to the posts that suggest anyone not working a 7 - 3 job doesn't care enough about balance to seek one.

Working parents can actually be super productive employees. They know they don't have the luxury of putting in extra face time -- they have to get their work done so they can leave to pick up the kids, etc. This is great for employers -- until these working parents burn out and can't get much of anything accomplished. You can't do it all forever without having time for quality rest and relaxation to recharge.

"but there's a holier-than-thou aspect to the posts that suggest anyone not working a 7 - 3 job doesn't care enough about balance to seek one. "

Didn't see that in the original post.

It's TV-Turnoff Week. Have a family meal. Play games (NOT video games). Read together. Take a walk in the beautiful weather. Get those kids away from the dead set!

"Working parents can actually be super productive employees"

Or not. Usually depends on the workplace norms.

10:37, to each his own, however, I don't believe my interpretation required any special thought. Here is the original post:

"We both are home early and have decided that that is important to us. We found jobs that work with our lifestyles.

Same here. [supply details of high-quality lifestyle here]"

MN: Same here, in other words, the original poster and his or her follow-up comrade have decided that it is important to us to be home early.

It's important to me and DH to be home early, too, but the jobs for which we are qualified don't offer the "be home early" option. Your mileage may vary, and does.

Except for the occasional emergencies I would bet that if a person was a good/exceptional employee before they had kids they will continue to be after children.

My personal feeling is that having children doesn't change a person's work ethic. If a person was a good employee before they had kids, they aren't going to start being a cr*ppy employee just because they became a parent. Sure, having kids makes juggling everything a bit harder, but many working parents take pains to not let their children get into the way of their work/client obligations.

What gives working parents a bad name are all those employees who were always pretty poor workers, and as parents, now use their children as an excuse to continue their cr*ppy work.

"Except for the occasional emergencies I would bet that if a person was a good/exceptional employee before they had kids they will continue to be after children. "

Or not. Some employees expect "special treatment" for being parents.

"Or not. Some employees expect "special treatment" for being parents."

But were they good before? There are exceptions to every rule but the vast majority aren't going to change their work ethic.

I don't think that seperating your work life from your family life is that good an idea. Of course when you're at work you need to work, but trying to build a solid wall between them is wrong. Things should flow.

Some things can only be done during the workday. Sometimes regular work will need to be done at home.

Over the years I have found my co-workers at work to be invaluable in sharing their experiences with me. I see them all the time and hearing the issues with their children/parents/spouses goes a long way to helping me cope. We work together better because we learn and understand each other. It's almost like a family.

Having had parents and non-parents work with me over the years, I think we need to be careful not to drop people into stereotyped boxes too quickly. Some parents spend too much time on the phone or discussing their children and their problems, but other parents use the management skills they have developed in running busy households to improve their work at the office. Some non-parents spend even more time on the phone with friends setting up the next weekend's party schedule or going over every detail of the last major blow out. They may be more likely to show up late (or not at all) and maybe hung over after the weekend. But there are also non-parents who are totally devoted to their job and career and may have parental or other responsibilities that they manage well too.

It seems that many of the problems here result from management not addressing workplace situations equitably when employees are wasting time and then unfairly laying on extra work and responsibilities without considering impact on the overall lives of their staff. I agree with so many of the posters that our family life in the end is far more important than any "career path" that negatively impacts us.

"A slightly off topic question: do your companies/firms make hourly (that is, not salaried) employees carry Blackberries or other email pdas so that they are essentially "tethered" to the office 24/7, even when not physically present?

We have an interesting (or maybe scary) situation that is arising because of this . . .

WorkingMomX, you've whet my curiosity - what's the story? Can you share?

The firm I summered for gave almost all the attorneys blackberries, and they all professed to use them to check their email from home while eating breakfast. I also recall hearing two partners confer over whether they could get reception on the ski lifts while on "vacations" in Utah. Ugh - no thank you!

"Or not. Some employees expect "special treatment" for being parents."

But were they good before? There are exceptions to every rule but the vast majority aren't going to change their work ethic.

Posted by: KLB SS MD | April 23, 2007 11:00 AM

I agree, KLB. The ones who expect special treatment after becoming parents typically are the same employees who expected special treatment for all of their personal issues, long before they became parents. They take mental health days (in work environments where that means they are dumping on others, or giving poor client servicee); spend significant time on the phone or IMing with boyfriends, girlfriends, family members; take long lunches whenever the local upscale department store has a big sale; come in hungover on a weekly basis; etc. Family issues are only the latest in their line of excuses for why they don't perform. The good employees do the same good job after as they did before.

Hey Mamma of 1, I totally understand what you are talking about! when my child was that age, I had the same Rockwellian ideal and concerns-- but then it got to the point that he didn't want to leave when I pick him up from daycare, and that has carried over to aftercare.

When I was a child , I wanted to spend lots of time with my parents, but my child would rather be with his friends and so my expectation that he would want the same Rockwellian ideal that I enjoyed has been upset. So I've had to create a "new" Rockwellian ideal-- I leave work, go home and start dinner and then go pick up my son at aftercare-- only two blocks away. That way, he gets the time with his co-horts that he craves and I have an easier, earlier dinner rotine. I'm still not taking off nearly as early as I could with flex-time, but on the other hand, I get to spend more quality time with him in the morning. And I need to work ful-time right now so that I can afford to take a long maternity break when I have my next child if that is what needs to happen.

anyway, things are working out surprizingly well for us and perhaps it will actually all work out for you too! It may not look exactly as you expected it to look-- but it may even be better than you expected because it will be a true reflection of what works for you and your family and not some cookie-cutter "status quo" situation.

Megan -- The concern is that by making them carry Blackberries/email pdas, we are essentially forcing non-exempt (hourly) employees to work unpaid overtime. That's the problem in a nutshell. Any legal or otherwise sage advice? :)

True, klb.

Maybe I'm lucky that I majored in something, and got degrees and experience in something that others can't or won't do. Maybe I'm lucky in getting the jobs I have and/orthe experience I have that is valuable, I don't know. *shrug* it is what I have to work with (I am really not trying to be snarky).

Also, I've decided long ago that when I need time off, I will take time off. My employer then has the option to pay me or not(if I need more time than my employer 'gives' me, then I will take unpaid days). Our family lives well within our means and if one or both of us lose our jobs, we will be fine and find another job or start our own business or whatever. My employer does not own my life, just some hours of my life.

Chasmosaur

Are you whining about someting that happened 5 years ago?

Posted by: | April 23, 2007 09:46 AM

Those who ignore the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. 5 years isn't even all that long ago!

Choose your priorities and stop whining. It's either career now, kids later, OR kids now, career later.

Choose your priorities and stop whining. It's either career now, kids later, OR kids now, career later.

Or none of the above! We don't all have to make cookie cutter choices. Especially because "it's the the thing to do!"

Ok, I like my job, but I officially LOVE it now that I just overheard a SVP cancel meeting possibilities because his son has a baseball game and he needs to commute the hour home to make it in time (so he's leaving at 4:45)

I am the first one in the office at 9am, everyone takes an hour lunch/or relaxes and reads the paper for awhile (I've been yelled at for NOT taking time for lunch) and I'm out the door at 5, with smiles and well wishes from my superiors. And EVERYONE takes all of their vacation/personal and sick days. It's wonderful.

I'm paid well (about 5K over the usual). It's not my absolute dream job, but it fits in so many other ways that it's worth every second. After a year or 2 when the kids are older I will definitely be moving on, but I do a good job, enjoy it, and am generally HAPPY with my entire life.

it took many months to find a job such as this. i was thisclose to taking DREAM job with a lot more money and excitement, but I couldn't. I only have my little ones once in a lifetime.

I am blessed with a flexible job,(I'm a Realtor), where I get to choose my hours, and my commute. The drawback is that I do work weekends, evenings, and holidays, because that's when the general public has time to look at houses. I love my Blackberry, it allows me to answer email questions from my clients while at my sons wrestling matches. When I set my schedule, I put my family obligations in first, and schedule clients around them. Doesn't work for everyone, especially the commission aspect of the job but it was a good compromise for my family.

It seems to me that the article "How to Wreck your Career" will do just that to the author, Leslie Morgan Steiner. I found it offensive to those of us who have a family life and a career. The main point in the article is that career needs to come before work.

No one should work for any employer who communicates that to their employees, because it shows a complete disdain for personal and family values.

The article which Ms. Steiner referenced did not come to the same conclusion that she wrote of in this piece. Is someone editing her work?

Chris, by the time I read this, I knew it was you:

"5. Yell out how your boss is an a-hole every half-hour (ex: "The time is now 9:30 and X is an A-hole!" When they come to ask you why, pretend not to recognize them and confide in them how AWFUL the boss is."

LOL! You're a sick, sick puppy! Thanks for the laugh.

One other thing-- if the women's movement is hindering you from doing what is right for you and your family, than I think the movement deserves to be reverted!

To anon @ 9:46 AM:

Not whining - I laugh about it now but it sucked then. Just making a point about salaried vs non-salaried and how sometimes the supposedly higher-earning salaried employees make less money.

But perhaps you might want to work on your math. The last time I checked, the Y2K rollover was 7 years ago...

One other thing-- if the women's movement is hindering you from doing what is right for you and your family, than I think the movement deserves to be reverted!

Posted by: Jen | April 23, 2007 11:28 AM

I haven't heard anyone use the term, "the women's movement" since approximately 1974. Crawl out from under that rock if you have a point.

The women's rights movement's purpose was to give us choices. We now have the right to work in almost every field(combat soldier's bing the major exception) we want. If your choice is stay at home with your children, as I did for 10 years, that's great. If you choose to try to balance work and children, that's great too. We can even choose to not have children, and focus exclusively on our careers! If you want to go back to being your husband's property, go ahead. I'll keep my choices, thank you.

I haven't heard anyone use the term, "the women's movement" since approximately 1974. Crawl out from under that rock if you have a point.

This is why many young women are not part of the club.

I wouldn't say that I have "wrecked" my career, but I definitely have not applied for promotions that I was qualified for due to the fact that I cherish my flexible schedule, and if promoted, I would have to give that up. My schedule allows me to spend plenty of time with my young kids (3 and 1) after work. But, like Mamma of 1, I too have lost alot of my ambition. I love my job and everything else that goes along with that, but my children are my priority. I figure when my kids are older, I can apply for promotions then if I so desire.

Shoe Question

Are D.C. folks really wearing Gladiator shoes?

I had an assistant once that called, usually on a nice day or the Friday before a three-day weekend and said "The baby is ill. I have to stay home."

HR said there was nothing I could do.

One time she called to say that the baby was ill and I told her that she can have the day off, but she had used all her leave and this would be leave w/o pay.

Amazingly, the baby felt better that morning and was not sick again until the following year!

Some people are better able to balance home and work better than others. I've noted here that I worked with childless singles who allowed their partying to interfere with their careers (even some folks who were over 30, and honestly, partying laike a frat boy into your 30s is pathetic).

But if "wrecking my career" means that I have passed up job opportunities that had higher pay because I couldn't meet travel demands, then I guess I have wrecked my career. But it doesn't feel that way because I love the job I have and I am able to comfortably support my daughter and myself.

I'm sorry if I misinterpretted what "movement" mamma of 1 was referring to. i think "movement" is just shorthand for "woman's movement", which, yes, seems like a very 70s term of art! but if there is some other meaning behind "movement" in this context, please let me know.

Maybe it could be "parent's movement"? But why would the "parent's movement" be reverted by mamma of 1 cutting back on her work hours in order to meet the Rockwellian ideal? The only movement I can think of one could argue is harmed by that action is the "women's movement"-- the whole "Get to Work" Hirshman scene that argues that you are undermining feminism if you opt-out of the full-time working mother role.

As i said before, if that is what the "woman's movement" has become, then I think it deserves to be reverted.

Chasmosaur, I thought your post raised a lot of good questions, and everyone loves a good horror story (and as horror stories go, I thought that was pretty good one).

WorkingMomX, no sage advice from me - not my specialty (sage advice that is, but also not employment law). I was picturing deranged employees putting their crackberries to nefarious use, but sounds like you have a more realisitic problem - good luck with it!

"foamgnome
Didn't know everyone works/lives in the D.C. area!!"

Anon at 8:27 - just in case you're new - you'll find that foamgnome has a really hard time with the fact that a good portion of the population lives outside of D.C.

"But this is a DC paper. So we talk mainly about this area."

The WaPo may be a DC paper, but this is the INTERNET, which is shockingly read by people all over the world.

"Our commuting problems are indicative of many large cities in this country. "

Also shocking - many people in this country live outside of large cities.

11:38 -- Ahhh-- where in the world did you get the idea I want to be my husband's property? I was simply supporting mamma of 1 and trying to let her know that things can work out fine even if it isn't the Rockwellian ideal. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else? I work full time.

Yes, yes! Keep you choices1! Live your choices! That's what I'm doing! ANY movement that restricts people's chocies shuold be reverted-- don't you agree?

"ANY movement that restricts people's chocies shuold be reverted-- don't you agree?"

Huh?
Duh?

I guess I was foolish to respond to an anonymous poster. I'm done here.

Jen

"I guess I was foolish to respond to an anonymous poster. I'm done here."

Promises!
Promises!

I haven't heard anyone use the term, "the women's movement" since approximately 1974. Crawl out from under that rock if you have a point.

This is why many young women are not part of the club.

Posted by: | April 23, 2007 11:39 AM

11:39: what does your anon reply mean? for example, to what does "this" refer? what club are you talking about? Jen is young? mamma of 1 is young? so what?

Can we please get back on topic? I want more career wrecking instructions. ;-P

Jen

"I guess I was foolish to respond to an anonymous poster. I'm done here."

Promises!
Promises!

The best thing you can do Jen is ignore them and don't leave.

The best thing you can do Jen is ignore them and don't leave.

Posted by: to jen | April 23, 2007 12:10 PM

au contraire, anon at 12:10. I'd admire Jen for her integrity, if nothing else, if she'd do as she promised. If someone is immature enough to announce departure from a public blog as if it's an event worthy of notice, it only highlights her immaturity when she continues posting.

Play hide the fish above the drop-ceiling tiles.

How to Wreck your career part IV:

Come to work smelling like a brewery/distillery every Monday and complain of the stomach flu (had a co-worker who did that until he retired).

I so identify with the earlier poster who said s/he worked for a boss who put in excruciating days and when the poster chose not to, the boss' rationale was, "Well, I do it!". I work for a very similar woman. This woman is 'super woman' who works 10-11 hours daily, 3 hours on weekends, and still manages to go to soccer matches. She gives me the 'evil eye' for leaving at my normal time, even though I get my work done, almost as if I'm not pulling my weight.

I've decided when my 8.5 hours are up, I'm leaving, if something catastrophic isn't occurring.

I've decided, that as a lifelong Washingtonian 30years+, that the sooner I can move south, the better. This area has become very difficult to live in.

I'd admire Jen for her integrity, if nothing else, if she'd do as she promised.

I saw no promises. I thought she meant she was done talking to idiots like you.

Chris,
Have you heard the story of the bitter woman who, after her divorce, had to move out of the marital house for the hubby and new wife/GF? She put fish in the curtain rods. They started to really stink after a while and, after the ex replaced carpet, etc he couldn't stand it and sold it back to her at a loss. All she had to do was remove the rods and start over.

I am sure it is an urban legend but makes for a great story.

"Can we please get back on topic? I want more career wrecking instructions. ;-P"

Oh, yes!

Let's get back on the low interest topic, before Leslie sends the Washington Post Secret Police after us!!!

Jen

"I guess I was foolish to respond to an anonymous poster. I'm done here."

I'd admire Jen for her integrity, if nothing else, if she'd do as she promised.

I saw no promises. I thought she meant she was done talking to idiots like you.

Posted by: | April 23, 2007 12:18 PM

To her credit, Jen does not insult the intelligence of everyone with whom she disagrees. Take her cue, 12:18.

NW anon, I hear you! I'm very fortunate in my present job- I get all my work done and usually leave on time (if I have to stay late, I can keep track of it and use it later). In my old job I had a boss tell me I needed to stay late sometimes, even if I had nothing important to work on, just to appear busy for the big boss. What a croc. If you want to waste your free time pretending to work, that's fine, but when it's time to go home and relax with friends or family, and if there's no real crisis, I'm out the door.

what a lame rehash of a column done before.

yep, heard that one before... very slick, even if it's not true.

-----

Start wearing/displaying the logo of a competitor.

"au contraire, anon at 12:10. I'd admire Jen for her integrity, if nothing else, if she'd do as she promised. If someone is immature enough to announce departure from a public blog as if it's an event worthy of notice, it only highlights her immaturity when she continues posting."

Where is her subsequent post that you are referring to? She hasn't posted since she said "I'm done here." seems she did as she promised, didn't she?

12:24, would you rather talk about daycare? I mean, come on!

Chris,

In that wikipedia index of frequent posters, you are one of the most amusing to read (and I mean that in a complimentary way).

Good on you. It sounds like in many ways, you HAVE achieved balance.

I am beginning to think, at the ripe age of 35, that it is indeed a balance of having money to live, and telling the world to take a hike, if I don't fit into its preconceived notions.

To her credit, Jen does not insult the intelligence of everyone with whom she disagrees. Take her cue, 12:18.

Oh, so sorry to have insulted such a nice poster who called someone immature.

there are a lot of posters who are not afraid of losing their jobs.

That's to the benefit of the remaining 85% of America. The next time their industry or the economy generally, goes into the toilet, employers will have a good sense of the workers who really need their jobs and lay-off those who are so good at setting limits.

If you want more free time to spend with your families, quit and free that job up for someone who needs it.

"I am beginning to think, at the ripe age of 35, that it is indeed a balance of having money to live, and telling the world to take a hike, if I don't fit into its preconceived notions.

It's called "FU money".

It's the best kind!

This boring blog is always about wrecking your career -- it encourages people to have children and try to work, too. It can't be done.

Shees, 12:28, either get a life or submit a comment on topic.

Yes, "FU money", or as my husband and I term it-- "6 months emergency fund", to find another job. The hope of course, is that he and I both won't want to say FU at the same moment!

"This boring blog is always about wrecking your career -- it encourages people to have children and try to work, too. It can't be done."

Only if you're in a very specialized group of careers, perhaps. Otherwise, parents manage to handle careers and children all the time, every day.

To somehow assume that children do not need and deserve a large amount of time is totally niave. You can't have it both ways. Of course if you work for the government it doesn't matter as you are neither accountable nor responsible for your time. For the rest of you, its day care and preschool so that you don't have to feel guilty or accountable for the way your child turns out.

Here's mcewen beating his same old boring drum (thud thud thud). Look in the dictionary next to bitter and you will see his photo.

"If you want more free time to spend with your families, quit and free that job up for someone who needs it."

If that "someone" could do my job better they would have it NOW. That's called the free market economy. Blowhard.

mcewen -- do you have kids?

"We both are home early and have decided that that is important to us. We found jobs that work with our lifestyles."

Same here. Work 7:30 am - 4 pm. No nights, no weekends, no holidays EVER.

10 minute commute to work.

Dinner on the table by 5.

Tack on vacation day to 3 day holiday weekends a lot.

Lives are calm and relaxed. No frenzied rushes. Plenty of time to stop and smell the roses.

Posted by: | April 23, 2007 09:25 AM

right. in my view this behavior prevents other people from finding balance. the employees who use 3 days weekends to extend vacation prevent others from doing the same, as someone has to be there. this should be "balanced" as well.

part of the problem

"the employees who use 3 days weekends to extend vacation prevent others from doing the same, as someone has to be there. this should be "balanced" as well. "

This is common practice in my office. The boss covers when needed.

3 day weekends are common in my office too. I think that some holidays are just not as importnat as others to some people. I mean there are plenty of holidays to go round.

In scanning some of the comments I find it interesting and impressive that parents clearly and conciously put their families ahead of the work. I agree with that view.

As a manager, I do notice that the level of distraction depends on the individual employee and family. It is important for people to know that the level of distraction will may impact career advancement as well as a manaager's assessment of current job capabilities. It's important to keep the mental intrusion, to be distinguished from normal appointments (for Doctors, etc.) and understandable childcare issues, to the lowest level possible. This mental distraction is the truly intrusive element that can undrmine one's ability to get their job done.

""the employees who use 3 days weekends to extend vacation prevent others from doing the same, as someone has to be there. this should be "balanced" as well. "

Isn't this true anytime someone takes vacation days? Not everyone can take vacation at the same time, so you have to plan ahead to get the days you want - isn't that pretty basic in every office? How does that make someone who does plan ahead "part of the problem"?

"the employees who use 3 days weekends to extend vacation prevent others from doing the same, as someone has to be there. this should be "balanced" as well. "

Doesn't every office have a dramatic employee like this -- one who complains / brags about how long it's been since he / she took a vacation day? One to complains / brags about the hours he / she puts in? They don't ask for days off for fear that the office won't function in their absence, and they are astonished that anyone else could bear to be gone. There's usually some heavy sighing involved. Ignore them and enjoy your day off -- it's a benefit that you earned.

Isn't this true anytime someone takes vacation days? Not everyone can take vacation at the same time, so you have to plan ahead to get the days you want - isn't that pretty basic in every office? How does that make someone who does plan ahead "part of the problem"?

Posted by: | April 23, 2007 01:02 PM

This isn't about planning ahead. It's about being the colleague with whom others want to work. For example, I could easily plan ahead and say to my boss, for the next 10 years, I'd like to take the week off at Christmas and the Monday after every firm holiday. That wouldn't be fair to the other 8 members of my team.

It has nothing to do with planning ahead. It has to do with respecting the family lives of your colleagues enough to take turns. Turn-taking involves NOT taking what you might be entitled to, on occasion, so that someone else is able to keep his life in balance. Maybe in your office, it's a first-come, first-served, race to fill out the paperwork environment. That's not the sort of workplace I'm discussing.

In my workplace, there will be client needs every single holiday weekend 'til the end of time. They will all be urgent. That's why they come in around the holiday. The boss is a fellow colleague with a family of her own, and there's more work than she could handle on her own or should be expected to handle on her own, if it was somehow fair to screw our boss every single holiday. If you want to work for someone that understands work / life balance, step one is, don't chase him or her out of the business. The Golden Rule applies at work, too.

"I could easily plan ahead and say to my boss, for the next 10 years, I'd like to take the week off at Christmas and the Monday after every firm holiday."

and your boss would say "no"

MN, the voice of reason.

Aside: In some workplaces, choosing vacation times is based on seniority.

HOw to wreck your career: Conduct a loud, messy public divorce over the course of several weeks (or months!) in the cubicle farm. Call friends and narrate juicy details, financial or infidelity-related. Use bad language while describing the soon to be exes behavior and character. Come in late a lot. Expect others to pick up the slack. (This is an equal opportunity career-wrecking move and you can still do it even if you don't have kids!)

I like Jen. Leave her alone. She has good comments and opinions.

"I'd admire Jen for her integrity, if nothing else, if she'd do as she promised . . . it only highlights her immaturity when she continues posting."

What are you talking about? I don't see any further posting.

Well, my fil always wants off thanksgiving and always will work on xmas. And one place he worked said that the schedule had to rotate so about every other year he would have to switch with someone (he doesn't mind working easter, either). It was so stupid.

Play hide the fish above the drop-ceiling tiles.

I prefer hid the sausage! Ah, but